The Ringer-Verse - Jason Mantzoukas Part 2: Mantzoukas Recommends!

Episode Date: May 20, 2021

In the second part of a two-part chat, Mal and Jason Mantzoukas discuss the wealth of animated gems Jason has enjoyed during quarantine, including ‘Wolfwalkers,’ ‘Hilda,’ ‘City of Ghosts,’ and ‘Harley Quinn.’ They also discuss ‘Letterkenny,’ Jason’s reading recommendations, and more! Host: Mallory Rubin Guest: Jason Mantzoukas Producer: Steve Ahlman Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal and TD St. Matthew-Daniel Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It is my absolute delight to invite you not only to Trolberg, but to join us on this podcast, for all things, nerd culture, and fandom. You were about to hear part two of my chat with Jason Manzoukis. It was an absolute joy, a thrill, a genuine treat to chat with him as it always is. And we talked for so long that we wound up with two podcast episodes. If you have not yet listened to Part 1, which dropped yesterday, be sure to check that out. We chatted about Invincible, the wonderful show in which Jason plays Rexpload. And we talked about Bad Batch or Star Wars Love, what we're hyped for from the impending MCU projects and more.

And in today's episode, we're going to be talking about Wolf Walkers, beautiful. And then Jason is going to share his recommendations for Hilda, City of Ghosts, and more animated wonders. As always, friendly neighborhood spoiler warning. And as always, a reminder to follow the ringerverse across all of our social social feeds and follow the pod on Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. And of course, head back here on Friday for the latest from the Midnight Boys, Van and Charles. Poo-Piu! Without further ado, here's part two in my conversation with the legend, Jason Manzukas. Another movie that I watched recently, Wolf Walkers. I mean, right? Gorgeous and incredible, beautiful and moving and inspiring.

I was riveted and enthralled and so touched. It was so, so, so splendid. I have not yet seen the other two movies in the Tom Moore Irish folklore trilogy. You recommend them. They're great. One is called Secret of Kells and the other is called Song of the Sea. Can that wait to watch them. Do they feel of a peace with each other all three?

Yeah, but they're different. They're also very different from each other. It's not repetitive or anything like that. They are, they are, you know, these are all animated movies that have come out of an animation house in Ireland, all of which use kind of Irish folklore as they're jumping off point and as the inspiration to tell these incredibly beautiful, oftentimes hand-drawn animated movies that are, you know, like to me, like this is like studio jibbley level kind of storytelling. These movies are Miyazaki-esque, you know? Like, they are just really incredibly well done and are so beautiful and are, like you said, like heartbreaking and heartwarming and are just like wonderful stories about, you know,

they are. If you're somebody that interacts with folk tales or any of that kind of stuff, you're going to, there's just great storytelling at play. And also then you're also just, There are also adventure stories, which are wonderful, you know. The Wolf Walkers is the one that came out this past year. It's on Apple, I think. That's right.

Yes. I think it's on Apple. Nominated for an Oscar. Didn't win, but was nominated for the best animated feature, Academy Award this year. The juxtaposition of like the city, town, it's a Walden City, city life compared to like the absolute beauty of the forest. Yes. And the untamed, free and sprawling aspect of the wilderness and how that is a threat to so many people,

the unfamiliar, and then how a character like Robin, the protagonist of Wolfwalkers and her darling companion, Merlin, let me tell you. I knew you were going to like Merlin. The agony in my heart when that arrow pierced Merlin. Oh my God. I wasn't sure.

I'm glad I continued to watch. I was not sure I would be able to proceed after seeing that. Oh, no, it's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking. And the movies, that's what I love about all of these movies. And it's what I love about a lot of Miyazaki as well and Studio Ghibli stuff is it is not afraid to be like very sad, like to really like engage in heartbreak. Like the fact that Robin's father simply will not listen to her will never, he refers.

uses over and over and over and over again. Because he so desperately wants to be able to honor his promise to keep her safe, it's horror-wrenching. It's heartbreaking. The movies are, the movies are so good and they're so wonderful and they're absolutely gorgeous and they are, I mean, like, artistically unreal. And the music is great and the, they get, the voices are all amazing. Anyway, like, I cannot recommend enough all three of these movies, but especially

Wolfwalkers right now just because it's the most recent one. But if you watch it and you like it, please seek out the other two. They are both really worth your time. And are, yeah, they kind of all are of a piece in terms of being all a part of kind of like jumping off from Irish folk tales. I can't wait to watch those other two because I thought that Wolfwalkers had this, in addition to how just visually captivating it is, it had this beautiful blend where it's the essence of a great fable. But it also felt so wholly specific and of a place. And it is just this mesmerizing monument to the power of imagination and hope and beliefs.

Like I would really highly recommend it to anybody who loves a great fantasy story. It was incredible. Check it out if you haven't. You never come here unprepared to shower. us with recommendations for all of the things that you've been enjoying. We've talked about some of them already. What else? What have you been reading? What have you been watching? Perhaps there are more puzzles that you would like to tell us about anything and everything. Ooh, puzzles. I mean, I could talk about puzzles for a long time. I'm going to, I mean, shouts to Waterford puzzles.

So because we were, you know, I came on to talk about, you wanted to talk about Invincible and I wanted to talk, we both wanted to talk about Bad Batch. I was like, oh, let's talk more about animation because I would say a huge part of my year has been spent really watching a lot of animated content. I think that my, I don't know if you feel this similarly as I do, but during this year of lockdown, during this 14 months plus of being like isolating at home alone, in my case, my watching, listening, reading, my habits have changed as a result. Like, I watch things that I might not normally have watched, or I've been listening to way different music than I normally listen to because everything is such a, for me, emotional trigger.

Like, my, like, I'm emotionally, I feel, I've felt this year so emotionally like raw and exposed that I have found that I gravitate towards things that are fun or silly or sweet or heartwarming or familiar. or all of these things. So a lot of... I've watched a tremendous amount of animation within this time, including all the stuff we've talked about. But then I also watched, like just even recently, too,

like The Mitchells versus the Machines, which is a Netflix originally animated movie that Lorden Miller did that I thought was terrific. I loved it. But I told you about two shows that I watched, both of which I was obsessed with, one of which is called Hilda,

which is also based on a comic book series, or, you know, I don't know if, I don't know that I would necessarily call them a comic book series, but a series of drawn books, illustrated books, who done by Luke, this guy, Luke Pearson, who I think is British. And they are kind of taking off from like, almost like a Scandinavian folklore. If Wolfwalkers is like Irish folklore, these are trading in like Scandinavian folklore. It stars the voice of our girl. Leanna Mormont of Bear Island.

I wore a House Mormont shirt just for this. House Mormon's shirt! Oh my God! And because I like to drape myself in reminders of Jora, whatever I can, but also for this reason. The best. You love... Yes, yes. So the actress who played

Leanna Mormont of Bear Island in Game of Thrones, who was like the 10-year-old badass of the last two seasons, she voices this character named Hilda, who basically is like a character who moves from the country to the city. And it's all about the kind of fantastical folk tale world of trolls and elves and all of this kind of stuff that her eyes are opened to.

And that she starts to engage in this world. She has a pet who I knew you would love immediately, which I told you to watch the show. And the first text I got was about twig. And I was like, I knew it. Protect twig at all costs, my beautiful. All right. Dear Fox, he is so sweet and darling. Incredible.

I love him. Six episodes into the show. And I absolutely love it so far. I cannot wait to continue. Bella Ramsey, little lady, Leanna Mormont, crushing it as Hilda.

Everything about the show so far is great. I mean, Twig is obviously my favorite part. It's you know me very well. That spirit of adventure, it's so central to what fuels the episode, the season, after after episode.

And I love stories. This is just the thing that says out to me the most, just a few episodes in. So unapologetically embraces and is anchored in that child-like wonder. And doesn't view that in any way as, oh, childish things. Like, this is something we should be ashamed of or move behind.

No, it's like the essence of moving through. through life and exploring it to the fullest, whether that is understanding yourself and what is meaningful to you, whether it is building new relationships with people around you, the quest and the way that the quest is at the heart of so many of these episodes setting out. Yes, the call to adventure. You know, the call to adventure is so powerful and the realization. So both Wolfwalkers and Hilda, I feel like Robin, the lead of Wolfwalkers and Hilda, Share certain elements, you know, like Hilda is a little bit Wolfwalkers in reverse, right?

Wolfwalkers, like Robin starts living in the city, confined by the city walls, mistrusting and fearing the outside world, the woods and the dangers that they contain, especially the wolves. And then through discovery, through engaging in sneaking out and engaging in what is the dangerous woods, discovers, like, the beauty of the world. Embrace the thing that everybody has been telling you. should fear, yeah. Yeah, and for Hilda and her mom, they leave the wilderness and move into the city. And in a lot of ways, it is advantageous for Hilda because she makes friends. Like, she is otherwise

just a child alone in the wilderness, but now she makes friends. And that with her friends, they continue to have adventures outside the city walls. They can see in season two, it really, it really goes for it in terms of big picture adventure storytelling, like really high-stakes adventures, which are really exceptional. But it really is, it's exactly what you talk about. It's this idea of encouraging and fostering and bolstering that sense of kid like wonder and adventure that is, that's everything I want. You know, like, that's what I want. I want to watch Hilda, like, sneak out and get into trouble because she's trying to do the right thing. She's trying to write a wrong or fix a thing or find a solution to a problem that some super-nuching,

natural bird is having or one. Gray raven. Around my home, the Great Raven is Lamar Jackson, but I embraced this Great Raven as well. Carry on. I don't even know who that is. Come on. I know. Come on.

This is where I literally, I don't know who that is. Oh my God. I know you. It's so hard-breaking. Is that wild? This is where you, Jason and I have like this hilarious disconnect. One of my favorite things that's happened in any. of our conversations was when you were talking about Matt Barry, comedian and actor,

and I thought you were talking about fantasy expert, Mandy Barry. Who I only know, who I only know, because he was on the league. And I, the TV show I was on, and I had to be told that's who, that he does fantasy football. I have no, like, sports are like a zero to me. I don't know, I don't know anything. I'm going to take you a baseball game one of these days. It's going to be great. The fact that it is so humbling that I can talk to you and Jason,

and you guys can speak so thoughtfully, cogently, with such a degree of understanding and years and years and years worth of knowledge and thought about all of these Harry Potter, Star Wars, Game of Thrones, all these worlds, all this wonderful, all this stuff that I feel like so, like I want to be talking about all the time, that you guys, that this is, that your actual job. is sports, that you know more about something else is hum. That's upsetting to me. I don't know more about anything else than what we're talking about.

The fact that this is like, oh, my hobby is to know everything you know. That's what I really know about those? I don't know. I saw you on Seth Myers. You know more about art collecting than you're letting on. Quite a curator. So true. So true.

So true. Most Meals with Dad. So Hilda for me is like. It is that show that is just absolute. Like when I turn it on, it makes I end. Like, Hilda is a show I watch at the end of the day. Like when I'm ready to like wind down the night, I'll watch an episode of Hilda or two episodes of Hilda

because it is just so bright and wonderful. And again, the colors between the city and the wilderness are different. And they just have done such an incredible job. It's beautifully, again, beautifully animated. It's gorgeous. storytelling. It's fun adventure stories for these kids. Yes, it's a show about kids, but it does not at all feel like a kid's show. But if you have kids, let them watch it, please, because I've recommended it to a lot of my friends who have kids and now their kids are obsessed with it.

You know, so it really is an exceptional piece of television that I think works for both, for anybody, if you like the kinds of shows we're talking about, you know? It is, it is just so wonderful. And season two is even better than season one. And it's, It's worth, you know, I oftentimes for years before the show, I have been giving those books to people and their kids as gifts because they are just, there's such good stories. You know, there's such good kind of folk stories that are recognizable and she is such a good protagonist. I love it. I love that show. It's on Netflix.

Two of my favorite things so far other than Twig, as previously mentioned. And again, I'm only, you know, only a handful of episodes in, but I love. the sequence at the back-to-school night, you know, with the parents. Yeah. The sequence where we learn that this teacher is not fond of her and considers her difficult pupil because she asks questions. And every sequence in that montage, every aspect of that sequence that we see, every question that she asks, it's like, what a great question.

What a cool thing to feel assured enough to voice aloud. And I love the idea of kids watching that and thinking, maybe I'll ask more questions now, how, like, inspiring that is. And then the other moment that I just loved was, because Hilda was initially very reluctant to move from the wilderness into the city. Trulberg. Yes. And the moment where she's walking around with her mom and,

Her mom is trying to convince her to embrace or at least, like, ease into and maybe warm up to the idea of this new community. And they talk about how every rock is different. And you see how that, like, just a light, held a spirit that she can find something specific and unique every time she picks up a rock, wondering what the story behind that rock is, right? Yeah. And then she starts to see that around her. Look at how those doors are actually different on each house and look at the unique sense of place and what the story behind that door might be. And I thought that was like really moving, actually, that reminder that even if you think you're going from this like a sprawling unchecked sea of possibility into something that feels more routine or constrained or mundane, you can still find that possibility. all around you if you choose to look.

It's still there. Yeah, I love that. It's still there. It's your point of view. It's whether or not you want to see it. It's not whether or not it's there. And that's what's so great about it. That's what's so great about it as it goes on.

It's, you know, yes, Hilda moves to the city, but that doesn't mean her adventures stop. And it also doesn't mean she has to leave the city to have adventures. There's a lot of episodes that take place within the city walls and are full of just as much kind of spirited adventure. and learning about herself, about her friends. And it's great. The episodes where Hilda starts to make friends

and how she is not very good at it at first is really great. And these are, you know, they're great stories and they're very well done. And they're just, I don't know, there's something about them that, to me, I was like, I could watch this. I want this to be out constantly. I want new episodes of this constantly. because it is such a wonderful, immersive world to kind of play around it. Like, I would, I would want this as a board game.

I would want this as a video game. I would want this as like, this is like, like, these characters and these, all the kind of stuff they get into. Like, I'm, like, I just, I love the world of the elves. Oh, yeah. That they're so obsessed with paperwork and, like, so. The elves are not very eco-co-executive. friendly. Not at all. Oh my God. They're burning up. They're using so much paper. It's crazy.

But there's just like, and season two, they introduce even more characters, but like a character like the woodman who kind of like comes in and out of the story as need be is really great and really unique and very cool. Like it's just kind of really unique look and and I don't know. It's a, it's a show that makes me feel good as as does this other show, which is also on Netflix and it's called City of Ghosts, which, which you say. fucking amazing. Thank you for recommending this. This was special.

Okay. So this is another, and I hesitate to say this only because I don't want to turn people off. It is a kids show. And it is an animated kids show about a group of kids who are, are they the ghost team or the ghost squad?

I can't remember what they call themselves, but I think they're the ghost team. And every episode is usually the whole team or one of them exploring a reporting, someone has reported an encounter with a ghost in their neighborhood. And so each episode serves as both the kids kind of chasing, like looking for clues, talking to local people to track down the ghost and then ultimately interviewing the ghosts. But what happens along the way is it's an exploration of certain Los Angeles neighborhoods

and the history of those neighborhoods. And so they go to Venice and the ghost is like a skateboarder who was like, you know, was a kid in Venice who used to skateboard and, you know, and so you learn all about like the history of Venice and how Venice has changed both from the living people that the kids are trying, are interviewing. And the whole thing is done as a, like, they're making a show. So like the older brother is holding the camera. The Zelda is always holding a brush as a microphone.

Her hairbrushes. Great. It's so like it's this, every episode is a deep dive into a Los Angeles neighborhood. There's only one season. So I don't know if it'll always be Los Angeles or maybe it'll be a different city each season, which could be interesting. But so far, each episode, there's only six, was a deep dive into, you know, different neighborhoods in Los Angeles and getting a chance to learn both about the history of those neighborhoods, the people that lived there now and the people that lived there in the past and understanding that, understanding the difference between the now and the then.

And like the kids are, the kids then basically interview the ghosts for like, for like a podcast. I was to say they're like just like us. Yeah. Hours of tape for their new podcast feed. It's so sweet and it's not like the ghost, the ghosts aren't scary.

The ghosts are just like, oh, hey, hello. And they're like, can, will you talk to us about why you're here? And they're like, okay. And then the ghost will tell their life story. and their life story is incredible. And you learn so much about them, about the time that they were alive, about the time, and about why this neighborhood or this building was so special to them and what it meant to them. You know, I'm in this place because this used to be my mother's restaurant.

And she used to make these special dishes. And you couldn't get those dishes anywhere else. And the uniqueness of the ghost's life impacts the life of the living. And for the better. You know, every episode, it, it, it, it. It's just fucking great, guys. So good. I don't know.

I feel like I'm doing a bad job explaining it. I don't think so at all. I think you're tapping into the essence of it quite well. I was not a, I had no idea what to expect heading into it. The tapestry of Los Angeles, I think, I think this would have felt like exceptionally well executed regardless, but there was something about watching it during quarantine that heightened that aspect of it, too, like exploring your, city working to understand the place that you live, that you just badly miss anything that

can even approximate an experience like that right now. And I felt like this actually watching, totally different, but watching Top Chef All Stars, which was set in Los Angeles current season is set up in Portland. But earlier in quarantine, I thought that I would find it sort of depressing episode after episode to see people going around L.A. and enjoying it and soaking it up in a way that we, as viewers at that moment in time, could not. But I actually found it, like, really affirming and, like, a great way to port into an experience and reflect on why it's meaningful to you. And City of Ghost, I thought, did that so movingly.

And you said sweetly, and it is, it is so sweet. It was also, I thought it was, like, profound. I really did. Like, the... I agree. Every, the stories of the ghosts are oftentimes like heartbreaking stories or are, like, incredibly beautiful, moving stories. Yeah, and the way that the show embraced and showcased the importance of history and the importance of roots. And I loved the way that the ghosts are central characters in each episode.

and as you mentioned, like, their stories are at the heart of what is unfolding, but they're also these brilliant plot devices in the sense that the idea of ghosts in a story not being these beings who are stuck or who can't move on, but instead working and existing as bridges, as bridges across generations to help enhance this. of a neighborhood and a community and the people who lived there. And when you walk into a place, it's like taking the moment to think about all the people who walked in there before you or who might walk in after you and what their lives are like and why something is meaningful to them.

And these are like, you remove the credits. These were probably like 16, 17 minute episodes. And there are six of that. And I was just floored at the end of it and really just so beautiful. It's so good. Beautiful. Like incredible, incredible unique storytelling. Like beautiful, you know, beautiful stories connecting, you know, letting the kind of the facade of like, it's kids who like go looking for ghosts, letting that be like this opportunity to let kids truly confront and deal with and engage with the history.

of their city. And specifically their neighborhoods inside of their city, you know, and how they have changed and how they were different and how they were, they represented different things. They represent different things for different people from different cultures. It's really,

it's really unbelievably well done. It's beautiful. It's so cool. And I love to, like, encouraging the impulse for the characters, but also them for the viewer, to follow your curiosity, like to follow that innate desire to learn about a person or a place or a thing or an idea. Fearlessly. Fearlessly.

And to find other people who want to do that too and the friendship and the bonds that you build as a result of that. Like there's in just the first episode, there were a couple of amazing lines. There's that line about how the building and the land have a history. I love thinking about that. And then that's such a sweet. little moment where Zelda says that she found other friends who were just like her.

And all of these kids are so different, but they're united by their passion and their curiosity and their spirit. And I just think that's so lovely. Oh, yes. And they all are, I mean, we're talking about a lot

of characters who share these traits. That's Hilda. You know, that's Robin. There's a lot of characters that we love who are, you know, governed by their sense of curiosity, adventure, and really trying to figure out the world therein. It's back to your point about craving these stories during this moment and time. It's so true.

This is what I'm gravitating towards because this is what moves me right now. This is what my life couldn't be less adventurous right now. My life couldn't be less full of, you know, new experiences, new. people new information. It's it's so prescribed that you know like to find these stories that have this sense of restless adventure and and and getting to know new people and what they're about in the histories of areas or people or this. It's all of it is so compelling because I get to have none of that right now, you know, in my real life. Power of a good story, man. This episode is brought to by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the

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I'll just run through a few other things just because. on the opposite side of all the kids stuff, maybe back towards like when we were talking about how invincible is like a great animated show that has like an adult. You know, it's R-rated in terms of, you know, language and gore and all that kind of stuff. The Harley Quinn animated show that's on HBO Max,

there's two seasons of that, and it is Hard R Harley Quinn Adventures. And it's great. It's a blast. It is also super gory. violent, but it is, unlike invincible, it is, it has more, like, it's a bit more episodic, you know, instead of, there is a larger story, but the episodes function more as, a lot of times as one-offs, you know, in a good way, because you're processing, like, her and her gang,

you know, coming in and out of the, you know, in and out of favor in the underworld of the DC universe. And it's a blast. Incredible voice cast. Kali Cuoco as Harley Quinn, really fun. I'm not a DC person primarily, but this is a, this series I had a blast. I think it was really funny. Great jokes, solid writing, good superhero stories told from a villain's perspective, obviously. Really fun. Really a good show. I really enjoyed that. I finally finished the first season of Tuka and Birdie, which is Lisa Hannawalt show that is fantastic. Ali Wong and Tiffany Haddish are the voices,

and it's a blast. I'm trying to think reading-wise, I'm reading a bunch of comics that I feel like I'm reading preemptively because I'm presuming that's where things are going. Oh, interesting. So I'm reading Dan Slott's Shehulk run, for example, as well as Charles Sol's Shehulk run,

because I suspect, if I was going to make a She-Hulk show right now, those are the books that I would do. You know, I would do those stories because they're great. Similarly, like, they're making a Moon Knight show right now at Marvel as well. So I just reread the Warren Ellis Declan Shalvey Moon Knight, as well as the Jeff Lemire Greg Smallwood Moon Knight, because I suspect portions of, especially the latter one,

the Jeff Lemire Smallwood one, I think my guess is, are going to be components of some of the components of what will be in the Oscar Isaac Moon Night. I'm guessing. I've been rereading a bunch of that stuff. I'm still reading, like I said, before, Star Wars Comics, you know, because they're great. They do a great job filling in the time between the movies. And that's what I really enjoy.

And I love, like I said earlier, that Dr. Afri character I think is great. I've been reading that book for a while now. A book called Head Lopper that I love that's kind of. of also tied into kind of mythology and folk tale type stories. He's a almost like a Conan the Barbarian hellboy kind of analog who's like almost like a Norse Viking character who has a severed witchhead that he carries around in a bag who's alive and mocks him the whole time. And he goes and he goes on adventures basically.

Like Al Swargeon and Deadwood. vibes. Yes. Talking to the chief. Yes. It's not in a brown paper bag, paper wrap box. But it's great.

It's a blast. Does anybody pass a kidney stone at any point? I rewatched Deadwood a little while ago, completely forgetting. There were like three episodes that had a pandemic. I watched it before the pandemic, but pretty recently. It's just fabulous.

Holy cow. I was like, those episodes were stressful. Like when the dock is in the tent with everybody dying, I was like, oh, boy. Very tough. Yeah. And the one other thing I'm going to suggest, even though it's not animated, I became obsessed with this TV show that's on Hulu. It's Canadian.

It's called Letterkenny. And it is one of the funniest shows I've watched in years. We have some Letterkenny fans here at The Ringer. I had no idea. somebody just was like, hey, I'm watching this show that's on Hulu right now. I kind of think you would like it. So I was like, all right. I turned it on and was like, oh, yeah, I'm 100% into this show.

It is fucking hilarious. I'm obsessed with it. And now I want you to watch it now. Okay. And here's the deal. So Jared Kiso, the guy that created it, he writes it, he stars in it, he directs it. He's like a super badass, okay? hilarious. He also stars in a Canadian crime show where he plays a like a procedural one hour.

Letterkenny is a broad comedy, right? It is a hilarious, like absurd level comedy. It's obsessed with drinking, fighting, swearing. It is like a town, like small town in Canada, townies show. It's fucking great. He also stars in a intense, like true detective level. intense crime procedural called 19-2 where he's like the dramatic lead he's incredible. This dude,

Jared Kiso, should play Wolverine. He's jacked. He's Canadian and he's fucking great. Make it happen. This is something that Arjuna wanted me to ask you

was your dream casting for X-Men, but you just sensed it and you knew. Jared Kiso is Wolverine. Okay. This is a, Jared Kiso is Wolverine. Listen, people have floated, people have said they want me to play Wolverine. I'm too old, simply too old.

You are not. I'm not going to do it, guys. I'm not going to do it. You'd be amazing. Which X-Men would you most want to play? Huh. Which X-Men? I mean, the answer is Wolverine.

I mean, just that's it. The X-Men I would most want to play is Wolverine. If I can't play Wolverine, I'm just trying to think, like, who would I? It's not necessarily like, because I'll get, I'll get hung up in like, whose power set do I want versus like, where would I want to be? And part of me is like, yeah, it always comes down to Wolverine. You'd be a great Wolverine. You really would.

The emotional arc of Wolverine is incredible, but he's also a funny, he's also a character who's funny, who can make jokes, who has a sense of humor. And there's a lot of X-Men. Right here. Yes, exactly. There's a lot of X-Men. X-Men can oftentimes feel like humorless, like it is a team. that doesn't have a lot of humor in it,

even though, and it's no, I'm not trying to throw any shade against the X-Men. It was my favorite. Yeah, if I was to be, if I, if you were like, you can be an X-Men, I would want to be Wolverine, 100%. There's a lot of times where I'm like, oh, or I'd rather be like a villain. Oh, yeah.

I'd like to be like Mr. Sinister or like somebody like, like an X-Men villain. When you said, you had discovered a surprising passion for a show on Hulu, for a second, I thought that you were going to say, and if you had added, and also on Paramount Plus, I would have been certain. I thought you were going to say Younger for a minute, which I have been watching. I began watching mere days ago and got through like basically half the show in two days and am alarmingly, but perhaps not surprisingly, obsessed with Charles.

I watched Younger. I watched Younger when it came out. because I was a Sutton Foster fan from, you know, both her, you know, stage work, but also I was a Bunheads, bro. You know, like, I'm an Amy Sherman Palladino completist, so I watched all of Bunheads. And I love Sutton Foster. So when she went off to do this show, I was like, oh, yeah, this has like a bunch of hallmarks of a show I could be totally into. I think I watched the first two seasons and then I think I've faded out.

That's what. Five more seasons waiting for you. But like, I'm going to pick up younger again. You're right. You know, I got to stop wasting my time watching all of Bridgerton and Georgia and Ginny. Well, it'll delight you to know that Lady Daphne from Bridgerton is in later seasons of younger.

So there you go. What? Huge reveal. Huge reveal. Oh, my God. So much TV, man. What else? There's been stuff that I loved this year, Lodge 49.

which I just thought was absolutely fantastic. It was an AMC series that is now on Hulu as well. That is just fantastic. I loved. Our boy, U.S. agent, John Walker, Wyatt Russell, is the star of Lodge 49, and could not be a more diametrically opposed character than John Walker. Great, great show. Steve Conrad, who created Patriot, did a show for epics called Perpetual Grace Limited.

that only ran one season. It's fucking awesome. Jimmy Simpson, Ben Kingsley, Jackie Weaver, like an American Southwest, Southern Border story, Louis Guzman, Southern Border

story that is just a brutal crime story that is also hilarious. Much like his first series at Amazon called Patriot, that I also loved, which is totally worth watching. What else?

What about you? You got anything else? The real through line of my quarantine experience was watching Bakeoff, was watching Great British Bake Off for the first time. So I'd never seen that. And I felt a sense of despair and emptiness when I caught up that really actually did compare like finishing a great novel. It's like, what will I do now that I don't have more of this ahead?

And then you remind yourself that you can always go back to it. and that's part of the joy, really. But what a show. The two shows that I feel like I recommended to people during the pandemic that were always a hit, if the people hadn't already watched them, were Bake Off. And the History Channel show alone, which is a, if you don't know, is a competition show, wherein they strand 10 individuals alone. Each of them is alone, separate from each other,

in a very difficult to survive place. The Arctic, Vancouver Island for a couple of seasons, Patagonia one season. There's no camera people. Everybody has their own cameras. And the person who stays out there the longest wins a million dollars. And so what you're watching is a survivalist show. wherein the people are filming themselves, they have no help.

And so at the beginning, you're watching people try and do the, try and get all of the things put in place, shelter, sustainable food source, sustainable water source, all put in place so that they can be there as long as possible up to a year, they are told. So what you're watching is first people freak out in trying to get those things and fail at some of them. then you're watching people lose their mind. This sounds very stressful. It is so compelling and it is so incredible and it is so incredible to watch, especially it's been incredible to watch during this time when I have been alone, to watch people keep pushing forward and keep problem solving the things that are in their way. It's riveting television.

I don't watch any other competition shows. I don't watch Survivor. I don't watch any of the other kind of amazing races or anything like that. This show is hardcore. These are people who, in order to sustain themselves, they have to hunt or they have to trap or they have to forage. When they get hurt, they have to take care of themselves, you know, or they're out. You know, that's it.

And people get hurt a lot. You know, it's crazy. So that and Bake Off were two shows that I recommended to people who were like, this is, I'm so, because there's now seven seasons of alone and whatever, 14 seasons of Bake Off. So there's a lot of it. Have you ever tried watching Survivor? Like, have you tried it and decided it's not for you or have you just never, never dabbled?

You know, I'll be honest. I watched Season 1 of Survivor when it aired and have never gone back. Did you not enjoy it at the time? Or is it just not a part of your life? I didn't enjoy it all that much. I just was like, okay, it didn't, it didn't, it wasn't like, I don't know, it didn't, it really didn't hit me hard. I was kind of dismissive of it.

Interesting. Not dismissive. It just didn't, it didn't hook me. I wonder if you'd enjoy it more if you tried it now. Yeah. I wonder. It's interesting. I never, I never went back.

Even though I, you know, you guys all watch it and I talk about it on your podcasts. My friends watch it and talk about it, you know, on Zoom's. on and stuff like that. So it's not like it's not, it's not like I'm not hearing about it. I am. It's just, it's just I don't engage and I don't know why. I probably should. 40 seasons deep. Jesus. Is that right? This past season was season 40. Yeah, it's unbelievable. Oh my God. That is, that's wild stuff. It is pretty amazing to think about. Also, just time has no meaning anymore. That's another thing. I mean, for example, we're talking about shows that we've watched during quarantine.

I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't our Avatar and Quora watch during quarantine? That feels like so long ago, but that was... And we never talked about it. That was one of the joys of the last year plus for me as texting with you and Jason

every few episodes about some new discovery, some new evolution in the story. I mean, those shows are just so beautiful and wonderful. Hold on. I'm going to show you something. I'm so good. glad you brought that up. I'm so glad you brought that up because we, I forgot that I would have put it on my list. Yes, during this, oh my God. Oh, this is amazing. Got Apah and Momo right here.

Oh my God. I love that you have both of them. Of course. Of course. I'm only surprised that you don't have an appa that is the size that you can be on, that you can ride on. Not yet. Yet. I wouldn't be surprised if you had like an appa-shaped bed. Like that would be like a great reading chair. Love that. Or like a body pillow or something. I love my dude, Momo. I have a Pabu plush, but it's in another room.

Love Pavo too. It's great. So these were series that I had never seen before, neither Avatar nor Cora, and watched exclusively during the pandemic in order to, to talk about them with you and Jason on text. And it was one of the best parts of my year because the conversations were awesome. But these shows were fantastic.

Avatar was mind-blowingly good, as was Cora. I thought they were both absolutely fantastic. And I wish I could turn it on right now and have never seen it and watch it again for the first time. You know, Avatar is one of those shows that I'm looking forward to a time when I have enough distance from it

that when I restart it again, I'll be like, oh, right, this episode. I forgot about this. I can't wait. I'm trying to figure out what the right amount of time is because I want exactly what you're describing the fresh surprise,

either of something that you had forgotten or just the new perspective. That's one of the things I love so much about returning to stories, whether it's rereading books or series or rewatching. I just love the new discovery that awaits when you have a different perspective,

not only because you've then read it and you're coming back and you're seeing the pieces and the clues, but one of the great joys for me is just like every time you're at a slightly different place in your life, you relate to the story a little bit differently. And I mean, it's, you know,

that's like one of the reasons I never tire of rereading or rewatching the things that I love so much and why during quarantine I have done so much of that. A thing that I rewatched during, in quarantine. You know this. I've told you this. I've rewatched Lost early in quarantine. Oh, yeah. Let me tell you. That was fun. And I would really recommend it, especially if anyone is like,

oh, I'm just not interested in returning to Lost because the end didn't, you know, I didn't like the ending. I didn't like the final season or whatever. There is just an incredible amount to appreciate when you return to Lost. There really is. Yeah. You know, it's one, it's one that I will say, like, I, fall into the category of what you're talking about. Like I felt like lost, like, let me down. You know, when I was actively watching it as it aired and felt engaged and like I was part of that monocultural conversation about this show and it felt exciting and inventive and unique and all this stuff.

And then I remember feeling like it lost its way in a way that I was like bummed by, you And it really never got me back. I still watched it all, but it never got me back in a way that I wonder if watching it now just fully just binging it as one single narrative and not having to wait and, you know, wait for seasons and wait for summers and, you know, all that, if I would enjoy it more as just one big long story that I just processed over the next three weeks instead of the five or six years it was on. I think you would. I've also, I've, I should say, in the interest of full disclosure, I think I've always been a little bit more of a lost finale and lost final season apologists than maybe many others are. It's not that I don't agree that it didn't, it didn't all coalesce at the

end the way that so many of us wanted. But I actually don't feel, and I didn't feel rewatching it that I appreciated anything along the way there less. In fact, it was kind of the opposite. I was like, wow, I'm so glad I did this because so much of the narrative around the show in the wake of it like sapped, I think our collective ability to really toast and celebrate what that had been for so long, even, I mean, the penultimate season, you know, the time travel season. So I just think like incredible, so good. Yeah, see, I got to get, I should rewatch it for that reason. You know what else?

Yeah. We are at a moment in time now as pop culture consumers where we are just like, constantly primed to be let down at the end. Like, why can't anyone land it? Yes. Why can't they nail the finale? Why is the final season this? Why was the final movie that?

Often, because those things are actually quite poor, to be clear. But Lost is like the proto example of that now in so many ways and what we often call back to in sight. And there was something now that that has become almost like dismayingly commonplace where you return to it and you're like, okay, well, this. It doesn't feel as much like this colossal fumbling at the one-yard line. It's like, wow, what an amazing 99-yard drive. There's a football reference for you, buddy.

All you got to do is go, wait, you go like what? You go 90 more and you get like a field goal, right? Offsides. Oh, God. You're the best. You're great. Like I what I really I look forward to these conversations so much. There is a a note in my notes app that is just to be discussed next time we talk.

So it always makes me happy that we get a chance to do it because these are these are great. You know, like it's part of why I love listening to binge mode and I've been enjoying ring or verse is I love listening to you talk about the stuff that you're loving or the stuff that you're processing, whether you're loving it or not. But for the most part, I feel like you are processing stuff with us that you are engaged in a positive way, which I love. You know, because that's how I feel like. I love being a fan of things and passionately trying to tell people you need to watch City of Ghosts. Please, please watch Hilda. Please watch Letterkenny. Let's do this, you know.

Those lesser known things, those smaller shows, those little things that I feel like deserve the eyeballs. Yes, obviously watch the big stuff. We watch, you know, all the MCU content, all the Star Wars content. I'm loving all of it. But I want people to check out all the little stuff. And that's why I get excited to come on here. The idea that I was like, ooh, I'm going to tell Mal to watch if she can, Hilda and City of Ghosts. Because I was like, I think you will like those, you know, and that you did, I was so delighted by.

You know, I was like, perfect. That is one of the nicest and most meaningful things that anyone has ever said to me. So thank you very much. That's very kind. I feel the same way. It is an absolute delight to have you here and to talk to you about the stories that we love and to share them together.

Thank you for being here. You have a standing invite, man. Come back any time. We'll just keep the Zoom open. Absolutely. I'll just keep recording. Where can we find you next? Tell all the Ringervverse listeners

where to look for you in the weeks and months to come. You know, really it's, like we taught, I would urge, please go back. If you haven't watched Invincible, it's on Amazon Prime. Please watch Invincible. I do a podcast called How Did This Get Made? It is a, we have watched, I do it with Paul Shear and June, Diane Rayfield. We have watched a bad movie and we're going to talk about it.

It's basically the conversation you have with your friends at the bar after you've watched. We do all the fast and furious movies, basic. You know, it's like, that gives you a sense of like, it's like us being like, okay, now what the fuck is this? Why is this happening, you know? So we've been doing that for 10, now 11 years, which is crazy. So look for that on wherever you get your podcasts. Yeah, you know, I'm trying to think close enough is an...

I do voices on a bunch of animated shows, close enough on HBO, big mouth on Netflix, are both great. A new one coming up is called House Broken on Fox, which is like Lisa Kudrow doing like group therapy for pets. And it's just, the cast is like Lisa Kudrow and Sharon Hogan and Tony Hale and Sam Richardson. It's like great,

great people, super funny show. So, you know, all that stuff. What is nice about right now is if you like any of what we've been talking about, please go look at any of these shows. If you like me and my stuff, please track down Invincible if you didn't know about it or watch the four or five seasons of Big Mouth that are available now. and all the rest.

There's tons of great stuff out there. Some of it I'm in. Some of it I'm in. You know, don't let that distract. If you're like, fuck, I hate this guy. Some of these shows I'm only in a little bit. So, you know, I won't ruin the whole thing. Who would think that?

Give me a break. Monsters. Well, friends, Duplicate has popped on to the Zoom for some alone time with Rex. And so that's a wrap on today's episode. Thank you, as always. to our wonderful producer Steve Allman, as well as to our Juno Ramgapal, T.D. St. Matthew Daniel,

and the entire Ringer production team for all of their help with this episode. And thank you to the Lord of the Memes, Jomi Adanoran for his work on the social media for this episode. Thank you, Jason, thank you to, not just, I was going to say national treasure, but let's be honest.

Intergalactic treasure. Jason Manzukas for joining me today. What a treat. Thank you, ma'am. What an honor. Come back anytime. I loved it. Loved it.

Speaking of social media and Jomi, please follow along as he watches Lord of the Rings for the first time. Check out Jomey's Twitter if you haven't. Oh, wow. Oh, that's fun. Extended edition? Jomey. Extended additions.

Good. Yes. Mel, I got so many questions. We can talk about this forever. I just want to know where they're getting the weed from in Middle Earth. There's a lot of... Oh, it's good stuff. There's a lot of smoking.

Bottom green, like, growing it. Like, I want to know the market. What are the strains like? Like, I'm about it. This was before ease, you know? So you really had to go find it on foot. There is a cutscene where Gandalf says, this blue dream is really fucking me up.

It's pretty good.