The Ringer-Verse - ‘Knuckles’ and ‘Stellar Blade’ Reactions | Button Mash

Episode Date: April 26, 2024

Ben Lindbergh and Jessica Clemons banter about the anniversary of Thanos’s fateful ‘Fortnite’ appearance, the most popular crossover characters in ‘Fortnite’ history, and whether to play ‘Hades 2’ in Early Access or wait for the finished game (2:00), then discuss the full first season of ‘Sonic the Hedgehog’ spinoff ‘Knuckles’ on Paramount+ and the future of the ‘Sonic’ franchise (14:20) before breaking down (in a spoiler-free manner) new PlayStation 5 release ‘Stellar Blade,’ both as a game (43:37) and as a flashpoint in the gaming culture wars (57:00). Host: Ben Lindbergh Guest: Jessica Clemons Producer: Devon Renaldo Additional Production Supervision: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What is going on with Kate Middleton? Which cult is popping off right now? What the hell is a trad wife? And why are we so obsessed with them? I'm Jody Walker. And I'm Chelsea Stark Jones. And we're obsessed. Obsessed with all the pop culture happenings,

filling our group chats and for you pages. And we want to talk about them with you. Our new show, We're Obsessed, is for all the things we're loving, buying, watching, listening to, and spiraling over right now. Follow the ringer-dish feed on Spotify to listen to We're Obsessed every Friday. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Trimphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start.

Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Trimphia, proper training and is required. Tremfaya is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible.

Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7. 77736 to learn more or visit trimfire radio.com. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need weather tech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner. Or road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips.

Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. you don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. Hello and welcome into the ringerverse, your nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. I am Ben Winberg, a senior editor for The Ringer,

and today I'm saying yes to the Jess. Rejoining me today is my OG button mash co-host, Jessica Clemens. Hi, hi, hi. So excited to talk about two things. today that I'm very, oh. You're not that excited about individually, but you're excited to talk about them. So that's enough.

This is nice. I'm happier here because, yeah, we've got a new game and a new game adaptation to talk about, not necessarily in that order. We're going to give you our thoughts on Knuckles, the new Sonic spin-off series on Paramount Plus, all six episodes of which dropped on Friday. We've watched it all, as can you, before,

or after you listen to this pod, I think we'll mostly steer clear of spoilers about both of the new releases we're discussing today. Knuckles is not that spoilable, which might be a spoiler in itself, but not really. The second thing we're going to discuss is Stellar Blade, the new Sony published PS5 exclusive, also out on Friday. We've spent a good amount of time with that too, so we'll share our impressions. Before we get to our two main topics, I have two bits of banter for you, Jess. Yes. Number one, we are speaking on the exact fifth anniversary of the debut of Avengers Endgame,

which Mal and Joe have devoted this week to celebrating over on House of R. You know what? It's almost the sixth anniversary of, Thanos becoming the first crossover character to appear in Fortnite, a very significant anniversary of its own. How do you know this and why do you know this? You're the Fortnite head, but it's true. It's Fortnite history. Theros was the first. May of 2018, Thanos and the Infinity Gauntlet showed up in Fortnite in what was billed as a limited time mashup, the first of many, many, many crossovers to come.

Had you already established residence and bought beachfront property on Fortnite Island back then? No, not at all. You arrived later. I arrived much, much later. I was playing, and I'm very kind of ashamed to say this. I was too big. I was in a league of legends hole. So I was in a darker place.

It's a darker place and I am still in that dark place. But, you know. Yeah. Well, you missed the Thanos debut then. But I subscribed to a newsletter called Game Discover Co that recently analyzed the top third-party IP skins in Fortnite history in terms of the percentage of people who played as those characters during the period when they were released. And they broke it down into a couple of categories. One for skins you could just redeem after buying a battle pass and one for skins you had to purchase separately.

So for the first category, the third party battle pass skins. Here are the top 20 most used in Fortnite history. I'm so excited. I want to see if I have them. Okay. Number one, I'd be sort of surprised if you had him. But Namar, the Brazilian soccer superstar. That makes sense.

No, but it's universal. It makes sense. I don't have any of the sports people. I don't have any of the sports people. That makes sense. Okay. I'm willing to bet that you have the second one. Jennifer Walters,

aka She-Hulk, but not in her Hulk form. Just Jen. I don't think I do. I don't think I do. And that is blasphemous for me. It is. And that's horrible for me. That's on me.

I know. That's a girl. I know. I have a few Marvel ones, and I'm very ashamed to say which ones they are. So let's go. Okay. We're going to get to some more Marvel ones on this list.

But I love to see Jen so high. I think that. placement is at least partly attributable to her being known as what some people call a sweat skin, I think is the Fortnite lingo, a skin that competitive players use because there's some perceived competitive advantage due to the character's size or color scheme. That is true. That is true. Yeah, Jen Walters, like, sort of slim, not very colorful, kind of a bland color scheme, maybe blends in

with the backgrounds, right? It's real. And I always choose the opposite. I always play as like this giant chicken, this yellow. this bright yellow. It's the Peter Griffin chicken from Family Guy. Oh, right. You will see me a mile away.

Is it like jacked Peter Griffin for some reason? And I won't play as him. Yeah. I don't want Jack Peter Griffin. I want the normal Peter Griffin. They just reused Jack Peter Griffin from Family Guy. If it were the actual She-Hulk skin as opposed to Jen Walters, I'm sure you would have been all over that. 100%.

100%. Okay. Next up, Thor. And I'm just going to keep going here. The Mandalorian. Lara Croft. Tony Stark. I have that.

Predator. Storm. I don't have that. Mystique. No, I don't. I don't have mystique. Deadpool. I do have that. Okay. Clark Kent. No. Aquaman. No. Wolverine. No. Rebirth Raven. No. No, no, no, no, no, no. Dr. Doom. No, I don't have Doom. That's crazy. I should have got that skin when it was open. I would have got that skin. There's sometimes I'm not playing. Like, right now, I haven't played for like a month. And I missed out on like the Billy Eilish skin. But I would have bought the. Dr. Droomskin. Absolutely. That's impossible. I would have bought that. Grute is up next.

I do have that. Okay. Rick Sanchez from Rick and Morty. I do have that. And then, okay, Gugaman, the virtual influencer. Yes, yes, yes. Creepy rabbit creature. That came with the battle pass, but also their soundtrack and the game is the best soundtrack,

and I still play it to this day at my startup screen. Okay. It's very sad. And then the last two, Spider-Man and Spider-Gwen. Yeah. So that rounds out the top 20. So not counting. Namar as a superhero, though he's sort of superhero in his way.

The Tale of the Tape, that's 14 superhero characters in the top 20, 11 Marvel characters, and 12 Disney characters, if you include Mando, which just goes to show how pervasive superheroes and Disney are in the culture at large, or at least the part of the culture that's played by an incredibly popular video game audience, right? So you had a few, right? Any favorites I did not name there? are kind of your go-toes? I'm main as Ghost Rider.

Okay. That's funny. That's not inconspicuous as a character. He has a little red bow as a backpack. It is just funny. I always made as that. If I'm not playing as him, I'm usually playing as Adam EVE from Invincible.

I love Adam E. And I have all of the Dragon Ball Z characters. I'm surprised there's no Dragon Ball Z characters on there. Like no one's playing as Vegeta? That's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe those weren't Battle Pass skins?

possibly. That's true. That's true. It might have been in the different. I think they showed up in the different category. But are there any most wanted nerd culture character crossovers that you are thirsting for that have not yet made it to Fortnite? This is just me. And it's going to come soon. The Disney princesses. As soon as Tiana gets in there, that's my main. Or if they bring in even the like funny ones, like if they bring in Winnie the Pooh, I'm doing Winnie the Pooh. Like that's crazy. Like once Disney is fully invested, I'm buying every Disney princess. I'm buying every Winnie the Pooh. character. I'm going to darn with piglet. Like, that's crazy.

That Disney epic partnership could bankrupt you. It will. I'm worried. Absolutely. You're out of your mind. If I could be the girl from Enkanto with the glasses, but I'm also opping people from a cliff like that's what I'm going to do. You need to like put your money in like a trust fund with a power of attorney or something

so that you can only withdraw like small amounts once that happens. That's true. You can't go too crazy. I need to. Or I'll start just like. crowd stories, or whatever, like, funding, and I asked for people to just buy me these kids. Yeah. But Thanos started it all.

So happy anniversaries, Thanos in Fortnite and also Endgame. And the former chief creative officer of Epic and Fortnite's longtime lead creator, Donald Mustard, yes, that's his real name, is now working at AGBO, the production company founded by the Russo brothers who directed Endgame. So it all comes full circle. That is full circle. Marvel Epic partnership. They've been thick as thieves ever since Thanos.

Okay. Second bit of banter, I don't know if you've noticed, but the internet is horny for Hades too. Oh, I am. I am the internet. I am the internet. I am the nonstop state of being horny for Hades for years now, but the sequel to beloved 2020 Rogue like Hades

is having its technical test for selected players in advance of an early access release sometime in Q2. And not only is the internet literally horny for the games new and returning characters. It's also figuratively horny for the gameplay of Hades too, which is evidently great. I'm not in the technical test, but apparently it's the Hades we know and love with a whole bunch of new additions that make it feel like a full-fledged sequel. So new protagonists, new moveset, new boons, terrain kills using breakable objects, spells, magic.

There's some of those things. Don't sound up Raleigh. Yeah, but I've never not liked a game made by Super Giant, and I doubt this will snap that streak. So I'm sure they will do it in a way that even I enjoy. The question is, when will we play it? Because sometime between now and the end of June, the game is going to come out in early access, as the original Hades did years before the full release. And we're going to have a difficult decision to make, because I think we've talked about this.

We're not normally early access people, right? but it's Hades too. So will we make an exception? Yes, we have to for Hades too. I think you have to for Hades also because I want to see it. I want to see it. I want to see it. I need to see it.

I want to see it. So I'm going to do it. Yeah. I'm tempted. It will be hard to resist because there aren't that many big games that we know of on the calendar for the rest of this year. I'm sure there will be big surprise games and there are some, but many of the games that we figured,

oh, these will be the goadie. candidates, they've already come out or they were surprise games that we weren't even anticipating that turned out to be sensations and are already out. So that'll make it harder to resist. And judging by the original Hades, it'll probably be about as polished as most full releases, which often feel like they should be early access, you know, back to the drawing board, need a little more time in the oven. And early access uses becoming more and more common as a way for companies to drum up interest in their games and just make game development work. for them financially as it gets more and more expensive.

So maybe I've got to get on board the early access train, but I'm still reluctant, partly because I'm more of a console gamer than you are. So you at least have the PC Steam set up going for you, whereas I will resort to that at times, but it's not my default. I'm okay with the delayed gratification. Like I could wait, you know, the fully baked, fully polished, all the content. I want to play it in its perfect pristine state, but I don't know that I can endure. the FOMO in the meantime of everyone else playing Hades too.

And that's me with Hades. That is completely me with Hades. And I know, because I know my roommate will do it. And then they'll just keep talking to me about it. And I'll go like, shut up. Don't be quiet about it. And that's why I think we're doing it for Hades. All right.

I think we will. I think we will probably cover it here on But Mesh. We can't avoid it. We will follow Hades wherever it goes in whatever former incarnation. Absolutely. All right. So when to play Hades 2 may be a tough call. When to listen to the ringerverse is an easy one.

Just listen to every episode when it comes out. Simple. But here's what's coming out soon. Early next week on the Ringerverse Feed, as well as various other channels, we are rolling out the inaugural edition of a new monthly micropods slash video series that we're calling Ringerverse Recommends, in which the regular Ringervverse hosts and some friends of the Ringervverse sometimes will come together to shout out things we're watching or playing or reading or listening to

that we don't have time to. devote a full podcast to, but we like and we want to salute and we want to hit people to. So Chuck, of course, we'll be recommending things not to watch. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. He has already recorded a wholehearted endorsement of something he very much enjoyed. This is a pod where we will all be lovers, not haters. So I'm helping put that together right now. I'm excited for everyone to hear it. I will definitely be contacting you, Jessica Clemens, about future episodes. So keep an eye and ear out, everyone. You can, of course, also count on a midweek Midnight Boys, as well as an end-of-the-week

comics check-in on Mint Edition. On House of R, Mal and Joe, will be doing an early week episode on fandom throuples in honor of challengers, the new movie. And at the end of the week, just in time for Star Wars Day on May 4th, Mal and yours truly will be bringing you a Star Wars animation blowout. We will be discussing the third season and the series finale of the Bad Batch. as well as the binge drop of Tales of the Empire. So all that coming next week, more button mesh coming next month, of course.

Keep your emails coming to ringerverse gaming at gmail.com. The playoffs are here and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul Predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, wishes, and misses. Predict the spread, the total points, and even the game winner. Sign up for Fandual Predicts. and predicted from the couch. Offered by Fandual Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant.

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Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Tramphia, proper training is required. Tremfaya is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's

possible. Ask your doctor about Tramfaya today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Tramphiaraadio.com. All right. Jess, since I had Van on to talk about Fallout less than two weeks ago, you also loved Fallout, by the way. I love Fallout, just so everyone knows. It's great. Yeah. Just since then, not only has a second season of Fallout been officially confirmed, but by my count, three new video game out of adaptations have been announced. Two adaptations of games that came out just last year, Dredge and El Paso elsewhere. So they don't have to be enormous blockbusters now or long-running franchises to get adaptations. They can be indie favorites. They can be kind of cult favorites.

And also one adaptation of another venerable Sega franchise Golden Axe is coming. So the video game movies and shows are flowing freely. Nobody is turning the tap off. and Sonic has been a big part of the video game movie breakout. Sonic the Hedgehog 1 and 2 are two of the top 10 global grossing video game movies ever. And now the live action franchise has come to TV, specifically Paramount Plus. This is not a place of battle. I will begin my quest.

Come, weed. Most people think I'm a joke. I do not make jokes. I make warriors. Let's go get him. Knuckles stars Idris Elba and Adam Pally, reprising their roles as Knuckles and Wade, respectively, from the films. This series is co-created and written by John Whittington, who co-wrote the screenplay for Sonic the Hitchhog 2 and the upcoming Sonic the Hitchhog 3. It's also co-created and show run by Toby Asher, who co-produced all three Sonic movies.

The pilot episode was directed by Jeff Fowler, who directed all three Sonic movies. So this is very much the same creative team and some of the same cast doing a six-episode series for Paramount Plus that takes place between the second and third Sonic movies. The third one comes out this September. Generally, what's your stance on the Sonic movies, the ones we've seen so far? Like, dislike, love, where are you? I think they're really fun. Love is a strong word. I don't hate it.

I don't hate it. I don't love it. It's very fun. It's very silly. It's very whimsical. I love the comedy in it. It's just so silly. Then it feels like in the times of like what we're watching right now, even with

like, was it around House of the Dragons? I can't remember. But like the second one came out at a good time where like all the media I was watching was just so sad. And like it was like succession. Like I was like, oh, I would like some Wednesday. It's an hour and a half of a good time. Right. So I have fun.

Yeah, I have fun. Yeah, I feel sort of the same way. Just kind of a measured reaction. I enjoy them. It's a good time at the movies. I don't really dwell on them after I leave the theater. I guess that's my level of investment in these movies. But, you know, I probably like them better than the Mario movie.

Yeah, I do. It's a competition. But I would say that much. And they were, I think, important in establishing the video game movie and adaptation breakout. The first Sonic movie came out in 2020. It was preceded by Detective Pikachu, which was also pretty well received and made a lot of money, but it was still kind of tentative, tenuous. Are they getting good now? Is this a thing?

And then Sonic comes along and those movies made $300,400 plus million worldwide, right? So they were just another beachhead for the video game adaptation at the box office. Now, Knuckles is in some respects very much like the movies. and in other respects, not so much, right? So here's the way that it's like the movies, I guess, or at least they want us to think it's like the movie. So Asher, the showrunner co-creator producer, he pointed out that they shot this show back to back with Sonic 3.

He said it's the exact same animation quality. It's actually bigger than Sonic 1 from a VFX standpoint. We have 300 more VFX shots in Knuckles than Sonic 1. It's a TV show, but feels and plays as, out like a big extra movie. We can discuss whether that is actually true, but that's the claim, right? He went on to say that this show basically operates as Sonic 2.5, right? So it's sort of a movie in between the movies in a way.

He pointed out it's not just a stopgap, a quick cash grab before the main event of Sonic 3, quote, if you love what we're doing with this franchise, this shouldn't be looked at as something that's an extra thing that they did on the side. animation is not that good. We really strove hard to make sure the animation quality on the show is as good as the movie. So did they achieve that goal for you? This is absolutely an extra thing on the side. You do not need to watch this and you can still go to the next movie and be completely fine. This felt like a very weird niche grab. Stephen Universe, every episode, every other episode is serious and every other episode is a filler episode. That's what this felt like. I was like,

They're just having fun. I'm just watching two people have fun. They might make one little joke at it in the next movie, but nothing is important. Nothing about Adam Pally's character is important to the franchise of him being a bowling, a bowling star. It doesn't mean, again, that I don't like it. Like, I don't like that he said, like, if you like the franchise, if you like these people, you're going to like this, you wouldn't say this.

And I'm like, I'm saying this, and I still like the franchise. I think it's very fun. The show was so quick to get through. Like, geez, Louise, one evening, not even. I sat and watched the full thing with my roommate. I, like, painted while doing it. But, like, no, it is just an extra thing on the side. But it is so quick to watch that I still would recommend it

if you're just looking for something to, like, get away from watching Shogun for a minute. You're like sad. You're like, go watch this. It's six episodes, 30 minutes, not even. I miss Shogun that this is a different tone. It's a different tone. That's what I mean. Again, a palette cleanser.

But, yeah, it goes down easy. It goes fast, right? It's half-hour episodes, but really, if you exclude credits and the intro and everything, it's more like 20, 25 minutes sometimes, right? So you put it all together, and it is basically movie lengths, I guess sort of a long movie, but movie lengths more or less. It's funny because it, like, it feels like a movie if it went directly to TV. Like a direct-to-tee.

I don't mean on a mean way, but it's like, it's not as polished for a movie going directly to theaters. The writing's very funny. It's silly, but there's a lot of times you're like, oh, so we're never going to go back to that or you're confused at where someone is or you're confused at what's going on and they just don't answer it and i was like oh maybe because they don't have to because it's a child show it's just like we're here for the fun not for the who's this mystical guy the chief that comes out of nowhere yeah yeah the the lore drops in knuckles oh my god the lore drops some of the

ways that the lore is dispensed somewhat jarring i mean i think the number one thing you need to know about knuckles is that knuckles is in probably less than half the show, right? Which yeah, that's true. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, but you could call this Wade, and it would probably be more accurate than calling it Knuckles, right? Because Adam Pally is really the star of the show. I think he gets more screen time. And I don't know about you. I was not necessarily clamoring for more of Adam Pally's character from the Sonic films. I like Adam Pally. I think Adam Pally's funny. But just the old. ultimate supporting character in those movies, right?

And in this show, yeah, you've got Idris voicing knuckles, you've got Wade. Then you have like knuckles and tails and Tika Sumter as Tom's wife, Maddie, make cameos in the first episode just to kind of ease you into it, just to remind you that, yeah, this is part of the same franchise. But then they disappear for the rest of the show. James Marsden and Jim Carrey's characters conspicuously absent. They are not in the show in any way, shape, or form. The villains were weird for this. I was kind of confused on it because I was like, okay, so it's the guy from Game of Thrones. Yes, the hound.

Yeah, Rory McCann. But then he also wasn't really in it as well. No. The screen time for people was weird. It was Wade, and I'm sorry that I have to keep going to other shows to correlate them, but the sister from the righteous gemstones. I was like a lot of extra people, not a lot of, knuckles at all.

Yeah. Anything pertains to the next movie. It's not like they skimped on the Kaz. It's not like they couldn't afford Carrie or Marsden necessarily because they got like, yeah, kid cuddies in this like a surprising about Christopher Lloyd shows up or at least his voice does, right? Carrie Elwis is in this movie, is in the show? That reveal.

That reveal. I said, I was like, is I carry out? I was like, what? Yeah. Stocker Channing. There's some big name people surprised. appearances in knuckles, but not that much knuckles. Not much knuckles.

It respectfully is like, and I see this a lot in Hollywood, and I love this in Hollywood. A lot of improvisers, a lot of improv comedians kind of like get together and they kind of are like, oh, let's like make something. And that's what it felt like for this because it was so many improv comedians from LA. And I was like, oh, these are all like, they got all the improvisers from like old UCB. And I'm sure they're improvving a lot of this script. I'm sure the scripts are not as long as what we. think it's them just going back and forth on banter that's really funny like i still the news commentators

at the end during the bowling are like oh yeah big comedians for improv too i was like yeah they're just having fun i was like this feels like dodgeball all over again yeah right and that part is fun that part is fun dialogues fun knuckles becomes jewish i thought that was very interesting that was episode three right it's like almost a bottle episode in a sense that was actually my favorite episode of the series i think Even though, again, it is partly Pali and Wade focused. But yeah, they basically go to Shabbat dinner at Wade's mom's house, played by Stalker Channing, and then hijinks ensue, which is not really a comp. I expected a kid series about an animated extraterrestrial mammal to make.

And it doesn't have a whole lot to do with the rest of the series, frankly. But I think the humor works well when you put knuckles in sort of a mundane, everyday, setting, right? And of course, he's being all dramatic and honorer and warrior, right, and misinterpreting everything. And I like that. It's played for humor and it works. And maybe it works best in moderation. Maybe it's actually for the best that there's only so much knuckles in the series because that is kind of a one-note act for him, you know, just kind of interpreting every, everyday situation as some sort of life or death championship fight for honor, right? So maybe that would have worn thin if it were just knuckles all the time. But I guess it's not uncommon for

spinoffs sometimes to be taken over by the characters from the original. You know, it's like the Book of Boba Fett syndrome. Oh, God. That was different. Mendo and Groku show up. And, you know, that was like kind of an indictment of that series. And the, arc for Boba Fett, but it was also sort of a welcome change because those episodes felt like the Mandalorian and they were like the best episode of the series. It was kind of, you know, pluses and minuses. In this one, I don't know that you can say it's better necessarily when someone else takes over and Knuckles is sort of sidelined. I think the episode after three, which obviously is four, that's the one where Knuckles is really sort of sidelined. And it's weird because there is a lot of

lore like deep sonic knuckles origin story lore drops there but knuckles is not there that's the one when he's dressed up adam pali's dressed up as knuckles yeah and there's sort of like a rock opera musical segment which you know i always enjoy a little musical interlude but it's kind of weird because knuckles is not really present for the relation of his history you know so that's i think the case where it's the most glaring that knuckles is not really the lead in his own show at times but neither of us is like that big into Sonic lore or Knuckles lore specifically. So I'm not like a huge Knuckles head who's super disappointed not to see Knuckles, you know. I'm not disappointed at all because they still put them in the cowboy hat at the end.

Yes, yes. I just love Knuckles. I just love Knuckles. And I still love Knuckles as Idriselba. Like it's still very fun. I'm still going to have a fun time watching the movie. It just was like, yeah, okay. Yeah, it's kind of like, tonally, it's like a throwback 90s nostalgia, even more so than the movies, like just 90s style buddy comedy road trip movie between Wade and Knuckles, who's kind of taken Wade under his wing.

And that formula does sort of work for a while. But yeah, the fun, maybe it wears it, you know, after a while as well. So I like the weird stuff. I like Stocker Channing, calling him knuckles, right? But there's some good bits, but the whole of it, structurally speaking, like, there's not that compelling a quest or a villain, really. You mentioned the hound basically plays like a robotic miniboss, more or less, you know, who's like barely really introduced and you don't really see him that much or care about

him that much. So there's not really a driving force behind this. It feels inessential. It's all over the place. if you smoke, maybe like, get Stone and watch it, I think you'll have a good time. It is literally all over the place. Once I realized the plot was like, oh, you have to,

it made no sense, but like, you have to train a warrior. Who's your warrior? Wade. Why is he a warrior? Well, he's playing, he's bowling and he wants to be the best bowler to like rekindle this relationship with his father, who's also a famous bowler. I was like, so the movie is a journeying to become better bowlers and not to like actually fight.

a war. Yep. It's basically about bowling and daddy issues, which, you know, and like, how would you know that there is a warrior within Wade? Well, the ghost of the echidna chief shows up out of nowhere and says so. So Knuckles is like, oh, okay, I guess I will train Wade for some reason. I was trying to make so much sense of it. There's no sense to it.

I was trying to make sense of it so bad that I was like, oh, someone is planting this fake chief. Like, it is not real. It's real. It's the real deal. It was like, no, it's your mission. And I was like, well, I thought an evil guy was going to show up to be like, no, it was all the test. No, yeah.

Not a lot of layers to knuckles, I guess. That's what you're looking for. Depth and complexity. Like, there's some character development. I mean, much like the movies, it's about that kind of found family and surrogate family and kind of, you know, finding a home. your adopted Earth, right, and embracing people who are close to you and rejecting people who are actually not good for you. Like Knuckles kind of goes through that process of acclimating

to Earth the way that Sonic did. It is true that the animation looks movie quality more or less. It's not like the VFX are bad. There's a notable lack of big show-stopping movie-style action set pieces, but Knuckles looks fairly convincing in these environments. But it feels low stakes even compared to the movies, which are arguably somewhat low stakes in themselves. Yeah, I agree. I wonder if they, because they said they were shooting this alongside of the third movie, if the third movie just opens with like Knuckles living with Wade and they were like, shit, we can't explain this.

And then they had the series just do it because I'm like, it's clear that, yeah, what you said, it's about family and like finding a home. And like Knuckles technically or kind of wasn't really at home with Sonic in their family. Like, Tails and Sonic fit in very well. They're like, yeah, we're calm or whatever. He was like, I need chaos. And Wade is that chaos. So, wait, like, he's clearly one of Wade's family members now.

And so that's probably just all it's going to be in the next movie is he's going to be spending a lot of time with Wade's family. Yeah, this is definitely not a do I need to watch Knuckles before I see Sonic 3? No. No. You don't. If that's all you're wondering. Not saying it's a bad time, but it's definitely not like you need to know what happened in Knuckles. But it's a lot of the DNA is sort of the same.

There's a lot of that winking product placement joky kind of thing. And this was, I guess, the rare time when I watch a video game adaptation that's a TV show and say that could have been a movie maybe because usually it's the other way around where the TV shows have been more successful. And it just seems like the episodic structure of video games lends itself better to TV. Van and I were talking about this with Fallout, right? there's just more time for world building, but you don't need that much time for world building when it comes to Wade, right? No, not at all. You know, this was more of a like, could have condensed this and maybe it could have been a movie

or maybe it could have just been nothing at all, and we wouldn't have lost anything too significant. But, you know, I had a decent time with it if you go in with fairly low expectations. It has almost the same metacritic Rotten Tomatoes ratings right now as the movies. I don't know whether the audience will receive the show as well as it did the movies. Maybe not enough people are watching the show yet. Yeah. And I'm sure on Paramount Plus, only so many will. Oh, yeah, that's true.

That's also true. You're assuming that, like, yeah, everybody has Paramount Plus. I have it for this job. Yeah, me too. And some other stuff. There's some good stuff on just about any streaming service, but some are more worth the money than others. And we always have this discussion when it comes to like MCU TV versus movies, right?

because sometimes you want it to feel essential. You want it to feel like this is really a full-fledged part of the MCU when you're watching an MCU TV show, and yet you know that not as many people are going to watch the show as watch the big MCU blockbusters. And in theory, what you want a TV aspect to your cinematic universe is to focus on characters who don't get a lot of screen time, and maybe there's more story to tell.

And, you know, like you can have a Wanda vision and you can really focus on some characters who might have gotten short drift or there just might have been more there. But I don't know whether Wade qualifies. It's like, you know, we will leave in a whole lot of story on the table with Wade necessarily. So it kind of like fits the description of what you want a TV entry in your interconnected multimedia universe to be. and yet it ultimately feels so disposable that it's just kind of, did they need to make this? So I guess that's where we are with this one.

So with Sonic 3 coming then, I wouldn't say that this series heightened my anticipation of Sonic 3, but we got the Keanu casting for Shadow, right? So that's big. And it's funny because I went back and rewatched the Sonic movies to prep for Knuckles. And there's a joke in the very first Sonic movie. where they kind of refer to Keanu as like a god, right?

There's a joke in this series where Adam Pally has a Keanu poster in his childhood bedroom and calls him a god, right? It's kind of weird crossing up streams where like the characters in universe are referring to Keanu and now Keanu's going to be playing a character in Sonic 3, not the first time that sort of charring crossover has happened. But I guess I'm looking forward to the conclusion of the trilogy, if it even is a trilogy. We were talking before we even started recording, like maybe not that much happens in the Sonic movies either. I mean, they're personal stories about like, will Sonic get to stay on Earth? Will he make a friend? Will he get to cross stuff off on his bucket list?

And will Robotnik make it back to Earth? And how does Knuckles play? But it's not quite as like, you know, these are kids' movies ultimately, right? So there's not quite as much at stake and there's not quite as much depth to it. And maybe that's fine. So going into Sonic 3, I'm kind of anticipating, yeah, this will be another nice time at the movies. But it's not like the thrilling conclusion of the Sonic saga, right? And maybe it won't be the conclusion because it seems like they've got plans for much more Sonic down the road.

Yeah, they're going to just keep bringing in Sonic. characters and then it's going to be them breaking things and ruining things and then they're just going to keep showing up i mean and that's the thing is like they don't really have to do too much i i understand what sonic is and what movies they're giving us so it's like yeah you keep doing that algorithm i'm not going to get irritated i'm not going to critique this like i'm going to critique other movies i'm literally going to watch it and be like that was fun and then i'm going to walk out yeah they have announced that sonic there will not be any hedgehog on human romance in sonic as there was uh in a Sonic game or some Sonic game.

Then I'm not watching the movies anymore. Yeah, I know. Simple that. Simple that. That we can't look forward to, unfortunately. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny. Like, I guess it was,

Keanu's a national treasure is the reference in the first Sonic movie. And he is. And he's a video game icon at this point post-Cyberpunk, right? So glad to see him appearing in this franchise. But it seems like their plans for this franchise, I don't know if, like, their eyes are bigger than their stomach when it comes to this, but their eyes are maybe bigger than my stomach personally, because they have talked up this franchise as like Avengers level, you know?

So Toby Asher, the producer I was talking about, he said, we got really excited about the idea of expanding our characters in our world into television specifically because it gives us a platform to really do character studies. Okay, true, although the character being studied here, again, is Wade. We knew that with Shadow coming into Sonic 3 and some of the bigger things that we want to do, the Sonic franchise on the movie side is going to be these Avengers-level events. They're going to be these big, exciting stories that have a lot of different characters. And so what television did for us is it gave us time to go into some of the more supporting

characters in depth and really build them out in cool ways. So it does sound like there's sort of a Sega cinematic, Sonic cinematic universe happening here, you know, chaos emeralds instead of infinity stones to go back to our boy, Thanos. and I don't. In Marvel, though, everyone had a power. Yeah. Rade Bowls. So I'm like, and then the people that don't have powers,

it's not like during endgame, I was like, where's Hawkeye? Somebody, please. I know. I know. And there's a deeper roster, obviously, of superheroes than Sonic characters, not to sort of Sonic the franchise. They're going to include, like, every character.

Right. Even, I don't know, maybe. I feel like eventually there's going to be a storyline where it, it reveals that Knuckles actually wasn't the last of his tribe. There is going to be one random, one left, and he's going to be like, I have to go home. That's how these algorithms usually go for these stories. Knuckles love interests, potentially. Yeah.

No, he's not allowed to fall in love with anyone but me. And platonic love with Wade and Wade's mom. And, you know, it's kind of the problem that Marvel's run into, though, with trying to build a phase off the back of lesser-known and less beloved, comics characters, right? And so you're trying to do that with Sonic. We're drilling even deeper down when it comes to the character Q rating here, right? So I don't know what the potential of this franchise is long term or how long its legs will be, whether they will run as fast as Sonic's little legs.

But I guess I'm in for now. I did wonder, though, you know, there's kind of a running gag about the mushroom planet in the Sonic movies, the uninhabited mushroom planet where Robotnik is. Robotnik gets banished, which I think probably a lot of people read as maybe a joke about or a shot at Mario in the Mushroom Kingdom. But I don't think it is. I think it's a reference to a level from the game Sonic and Knuckles. And Sonic and Mario aren't really in opposition anymore.

Sometimes they're in the same games. But in the throwback spirit of the 90s console wars, are you more excited for Sonic's continuing on-screen adventures or for the fledgling but burgeoning Nintendo? No cinematic universe, including the Mario movies and the Zelda movie on the way and who knows what else. I'm too afraid of the Zelda movie. Yeah, well, we're both terrified about how that will turn out. I'm mad that you even brought it up.

I'm so scared about it. That's why I'm going to lean Sonic because I know what I'm getting myself into with Sonic. It's still fun. Like, I still have a good time. And I love that they brought back the original voice actor for Tales. And if they keep doing things like that, it's going to be nostalgic for us old people that watched it or played the games. and just like it.

And it's fun and it's cute. And I have an addiction to very cute things. And if Zelda is ugly, I'm going to be upset. Not Zelda. Just the entire live action. The animation. Is it an animation? I thought I was going to go live action.

No, it's not. Yeah. You're right. Yeah. But we still don't have a whole lot of details. Yeah. I'm so scared. What it will look like, who will play, right?

So, yeah, there's a lot we don't know and a lot to be worried about. And the first Mario movie was fine. It was competent. It was also, you know, kind of. easily digestible. Obviously, it's been extremely successful and was barely behind Barbie as the highest grossing movie of last year. And it's like the most popular streaming movie on Netflix ever. Like, it's a juggernaut. And if that introduces more people to Mario Games, that's great. But if the sequel is another elimination movie, which it is, as we know, we don't know who it will

feature, what it will be about exactly yet, but we know it's coming in a few years. So I'm kind of apprehensive about that too, I guess, but also hopeful, because you and I are more Nintendo kids at heart, I guess, you know, our brand of nostalgia or our experiences as kids than we were Sonic kids. Yeah. Right. Sonic was always like just too fast for me. No quite intended. Yeah. No, it's just like I wanted to slow down and smell the roses a little and collect the coins, you know? And it always felt just like a little bit beyond my thresholds of handbook. die coordination, which was maybe the point. And obviously, you get to know the stages and you become a little bit better at it. I just had more Nintendo consoles than I did Sega ones.

Yeah. I just have a little less natural affinity for that character in that franchise. And yet, the movies so far at least have been better, if not necessarily the Knuckles Show. Yeah, I'm, yeah, I'm just a Mario person. I also think I, going back to the Mario movie, I think I sit the hate rate on it a little too much because of the hype. Because once I finally watched it, I was like, what did you guys get me into? I was like, what is this? I was like, this is what I wanted. But also, yeah, when I comes to Mario and Sonic, it was mainly the consoles that I just had. Sucks that I had everything for Mario. I just didn't have anything for Sonic. My brother did, and he wouldn't let me play it. So I play Mario. Oh, I'm sorry. Well, making up for last time now

one way or another. So our verdict on Knuckles, it's not bad. It's not great. If you're a hardcore Sonic franchise head, then you might want to check it out. But then again, you might be mad that there's not more knuckles in it. If you're looking for something to watch, if you want, a video game adaptation on Paramount Plus that is better than Halo. I guess it clears the better than Halo bar for us. Speaking of being haters about things. So there's that.

It is the most like, yeah, like, okay show for that I think I've talked of, at least on button match, the most okay thing. that I've talked about. It's very, it's very okay. Yes. Well, we will have many more video game adaptation coverage episodes to come later this year. We've got Borderlands. We've got Sonic 3. I know, but who knows? Who knows? That was great. You never know. I have high hopes. It's in Kevin Hart and Jamie Curtis. Cape Blanchett in a Borderlands movie.

Yes. Okay, continue. In Arcane Season 2. I mean, button mesh, mint edition, we'll have to fight over that one. Or maybe we can combine forces. You should, yeah. Yeah, cover it on mass. Yeah, we can team up for that one maybe because we're all excited. All right.

Let's talk about today's new video game, which will undoubtedly be adapted at some point in the future, given the way things are going. Nobody roams these lands free of suffering. You're leaving to do something important, right? This one. It won't be easy either. No one has ever made it back alive. All I ask is you give us hope. May your memories live on.

May your memories live on. Forever. Is this what Adam was talking about? We have to go down. You can't come back from this. This is what I was born to do. This is my battle. So, Stellar Blade.

There's a lot writing on this game because there are no major Sony first-party games coming out this year. You know, no Spider-Man, no god of war, nothing like that. So it's sort of a lack of killer PS5 exclusives. But we do have the brand new Stellar Blade, which is published by Sony and developed by the Korean studio Shift Up. And between this and Dave the Diver and Liza P, etc., Korea is kind of on a role when it comes to premium much-loved game development lately. But this game is sort of a sci-fi, post-apocalyptic, third-person, action adventure. I could keep just layering on more and more descriptors and adjectives, but you probably get the point. It reminds me most of Near Automata, a excellent game from several years ago.

But it's kind of like Near meets The Matrix conceptually, meets Devil May Cry, meets Recechero, meets Bayoneta, meets Horizon Zero Dawn. I'm not saying it's as good as all of those things, but elements of all of those things kind of in the stew here, some sci-fi, some souls-like, some sex appeal, arguably too much in certain ways. This game has kind of become a hot-button topic in the culture wars, which we will address.

But let's start by talking about the game before we get to the vaguely Gamer Gady discourse surrounding the game. what did you make of stellar plate? I think it's very fun, hard for me. Hard for me. I understand the optics, though. I think it's very fun for other people probably. I'm so bad at combat, dude.

I'm so bad at blocking and dodging. And then I was like upping all my skills for things. I will say it was a lot to grasp when it was like immediately throws you in. You have a lot of skills already unlocked, I think. And then I couldn't remember the buttons. It's a lot of bun mashing. It was a lot of me button mashing. couldn't remember. But even when I would upgrade all my things, I was just like, dude, I'm just

not good at timing. It's one of those games where you have to dodge it right, the right moment. And I'm so bad at it, no matter how many times I was doing it, dude, I was playing this game for like six hours straight. I was just getting my ass kick. I was going to get my ass kick by everything. But exploring and using the robot Adam? Adam's your companion, guy companion, right? I loved using him to check everything and then just go searching. It's very fun. to explore in this world. Yeah, I was actually surprised by how much exploration is in this game and really like how much period is in this game because I was kind of expecting almost a bare bones

like hack and slash type action game. And there's a lot of world building. This is like a maybe 20 to 30 hour game all told. And I was surprised by just the number of like NPCs and side quests and alleys you can go down and find stuff. that aren't strictly required, but are kind of rewarding. I guess I had a somewhat different experience with the combat. So were you playing on just the normal difficulty? Did you try dialing it down and seeing if that made it any better for you? I stayed at where I was.

And I was playing the story mode because the story mode gives you the – actually, I don't know if the other one does, but I know the story mode gives you like, hey, press O right now. Yeah, it gives you some prompts. Yeah. And I was like, I need this. I was like, I need this. I'm an idiot.

So I stayed at the normal difficulty it was at, but I don't know. It's more about even if I went to a lower difficulty, I think I'm just bad at timing things in video games when knowing your opponent's about to hit. I'm not. And they're always vibrating. Every character is like vibrating. So I don't know when they're going to swing on me. So I just kept getting slashed. I was getting slashed a lot.

It's funny. I actually had fewer issues with that with this game than I have with some others that we've talked about. I thought the combat was conveyed very. very well in this game. Compared to, say, Spider-Man, we talked about that game. We kind of got our asses kicked at times in Spider-Man too, right?

And part of that was that there were a lot of, like, lights and flashing indicators and people hitting you from far away, and it's tough to tell the direction and all of that, right? And in this game, I actually kind of felt like

it was easier to distinguish because in Spider-Man, there were, like, confusing colors that weren't really differentiated that well. And so it was hard to anticipate, attacks at times. In this one, like, you've got blue attacks, you've got pink attacks, right? And they are kind of telegraphed clearly, or at least I thought so. I was kind of pleased with compared to even

like Final Fantasy 7 rebirth, for instance, which I like the combat in that game, but there's a lot going on. You know, it takes some time to master and there's just a lot of like particles showering everywhere and it can be kind of overwhelming at times. And I actually found this to be pretty good at the signaling when to dodge, when to block. Like, it felt fairly intuitive to me. And I wouldn't say I'm some get-good, like, great gamer either. Like, we've struggled with some of the same boss battles and games in the past. So if there's a skill issue, it's often one we share, right?

But I don't know. It's tough sometimes to separate, like, skill issue from, is the game good? You know, is it just like, this is not for me? Like, I'm not that well-suited. I'm not that adept at this. Or is the game actually not good? Like, is it not holding my hand enough? Is it not making things clear enough?

I wouldn't say this is like, you know, full-on soulsy, Eldon ring type difficulty by any means. I would say it's a good deal easier than that. And I struggled a little at first, but I felt like I kind of got a handle on it before too long. So I enjoyed the combat. I got to say, it didn't frustrate me that much. I thought the opposite.

it. No, it was good. I'm just bad at it, baby. I'm just genuinely like, even when I got they were like, yeah, when you're sword like shines blue, go press up and like square. And I was just not doing the up at the right time, I guess. Yeah. Oh, I definitely tried it at first, a bunch. Yeah. Yeah. I got the hang of it eventually. And I was trying, dude. Yeah. So, so be aware of that. there definitely is some challenge here. I thought the boss battles were pretty good, though. I mean, maybe you found them extra frustrating, but I thought they were pretty compelling and pretty epic and fun.

Yeah, same. Yeah, I guess it depends on whether you like the combat or hate the combat. I will say the boss battles, I never died. I always was fine. I going through it, to be fair, I was button mashing. I was pressing like L10 to dodge everything they threw at me because I was getting so stress trying to remember every button for my attacks. And then like when I say all these things, even though they sound negative, I do recommend the game. I think the game is very fun. And it's just

me that has a hard time. There's so much stuff going on on the screen. And this could have been me going through it and maybe ignoring a lot of it at the beginning. But I was like, okay, there's a bottom left telling me to do this. Bottom right is taking care of my medicine. But also I have to like press down to get to the medicine in the middle of this boss battle to choose the right one. If I want to use the grenades, I wish it was a lot more simpler to actually go through your items instead of having to like exit the actual screen and the game and to like change it. I think it was a little fast for me and I was just very confused during the boss battle fights. When it's like you're playing those little things on the ground, those were fun for training

purposes. Yeah. I loved searching for things though. And that's maybe because I'm a little loser. I used Adam to search the grounds all the time. I use that key every corner I turn and then I go, ooh, there's a chest over here. And I'd run over and just like open everything. I was opening everything.

I think the world itself is so fun. I think it's so cool. I like it. I like it, too. It definitely reminds me of a lot of other things. So it's somewhat derivative, I guess. But ultimately, I thought it did a pretty good job of setting itself apart and putting its own spin on things.

And there's some surprises and twists along the way. I think it starts well. I think it ends pretty well. It's kind of compelling. It hooks you. It does maybe get a bit repetitive or monotonous at points. One thing that overwhelms me with games like this is when there are too many aspects to the combat system. Like, there are just too many different kinds of attacks or different layers to the combat system or so many, like, skill tree unlockable options that you feel like you're just always a step behind.

You know, you never feel proficient in anything. Some people like that. Like, if this is your type of game, then you want it to be super complex and you want a zillion combos because, you know, It's like us playing fighting games. You like that, right? And I feel overwhelmed and I'm button mashing. So it just varies by genre. It definitely does.

You're actually good at those games and I am bad and I find them overwhelming. But this game, I thought that the skill tree, like initially there are several different screens and it looks like it's going to be one of these games where you're just like leveling up the entire time and adding more and more abilities and layering and stacking them. But it actually turns out not really to be like that. there isn't really that much skill progression or unlockable stuff. You actually unlock the abilities pretty quickly, I would say. And then it's just kind of variations of the same thing. And even though there's really good enemy variety, I would say, and cool enemy design to kind of like, yeah, like blood-borney, you know,

just sort of like hybrid bloody monsters. Like sometimes it's verging on like survival horror-looking stuff. It's more just kind of fun and laid back than that, I guess. But the enemies look cool and you're fighting a lot of different enemies, but I think the strategies that you employ against them are largely the same. It's just kind of your standard like your light attack, your heavy attack, your Perry, your Dodge, like all of that is fairly familiar and maybe somewhat monotonous. So if you're expecting it to just like keep pushing you more and more for the 20 or 30 hours

that you're playing this game, you might not be satisfied. in that sense. But I thought it was fun. I was pleasantly surprised by how much fun I had with it. There were definitely some negatives, some of which we've touched on. Eve's movement can be a bit imprecise. So some of the platforming sections are rough. I'd say the voice acting, the English voice acting, not a highlight of this game, right? And I don't know if I'd call the writing a highlight either. I think the world building's kind of cool, but the writing and the line delivery, at least of the English cast, a little bit lackluster, I would say. Just, you know, not the most well-drawn characters in my mind. My prose about this game, I think the world itself is really fun. I think

that bosses are insanely looking, they're terrifying. I like even the music. Oh, my God, changing the music. Oh, the music's great. Oh, my God, the music. I was too into the music. I was like, this is really going to change up how I'm going to play. So I got to make sure it's a good song. I love the music. Actually, I should look into the music after this. But, anything actually involving the character, I did not like. Leave is respectfully one of the most useless characters. It is a shame. The critiques that have been going on online about the character and how,

what the hell she is. Because I even playing the game, I was like, oh yeah, I'm playing as like a doll robot. That's what I kept saying to myself when I was playing this game. And we'll get into it probably soon nowish. That tie kept bothering me.

And my roommate was like, you better bring this up because you won't stop talking about it. That tie. And I get it. I get what we're doing here. I understand the accessories that are given to this character. But it was so useless and unnecessary that it actually made me hate her. I was so mad. As soon as she stepped out of that like cryogenic, whatever the hell, water she was in.

And then it was like, here's a tie that you can follow from her literal neck between her cleavage down to. And I'm like, why is she wearing a tie? Why is my robot wearing a tie? It's an interesting choice. I want to string up myself when I see it. Why is a robot? If I got a robot, if I got an AI sent to a robot and I put a top hat on it, why would I do that? It makes no sense.

It makes no sense. I don't understand her gloves and I don't understand that goddamn tie. Regardless, Eve as a character, the voice, everything, it did just feel like I was playing with just like a doll. It was like a doll robot. The cosplayers are going to love the tie, I'm sure. I'm going to throw that tie away. If I see them, I'm Yankee that tie off.

It's very much like a Final Fantasy character wearing a bunch of belts for no reason. You know, the tie, it's just like strange attire for a combat situation. And she's not wearing that much, which maybe makes the fact that she's wearing a tie all the more noticeable. I have to take off my glasses right now. I don't know why it upset me so much. I need a psychiatrist to tell me right now why the tie upset me so much. It truly distracted me the entire game. I was like she does not need that damn tie.

A lot of those distractions me in the game that she did not need. But the tie was the number one for me. Yes. So the tie has not actually been the biggest point of contention when it comes to Eve's appearance in this game, right? This discourse has almost overshadowed the game itself and the gameplay, at least prior to release, when people had not had their hands on the game.

I hope that people do try out the game because, again, I think it's fun. But a lot of the buzz, positive, negative, the discord about this game has been about Eve's appearance and attire. And a lot of this, it's coming on the heels of larger issues that are roiling the gaming community now, very much in the vein of Gamergate, kind of a pushback against diverse characters, right? Much of it seemingly centered specifically on this small consulting company called Sweet Baby, which has been involved in many prominent games. And there's just sort of this narrative out there, this sort of distorted narrative about Sweet Baby, imposing diverse characters and viewpoints on studios and developers. And so the usual suspects in the gaming community have been up in arms about that.

And, you know, we haven't talked about that really on the show to this point. And I'm never sure how much oxygen to give these things, you know, because I'm always conflicted when people talk about, like, review bombing, right? Or, you know, people harassing cast members of shows. Like, you don't want to look away from that stuff. You don't want to sweep it under the rug and pretend it's not happening. But also, if you dwell on it, I think it blows it up to be probably a bigger thing than it actually is in terms of whether it represents the gaming community as a whole. I think and hope that it's a very loud, vocal minority, and what they want is for everyone to be talking about this. And, you know, that doesn't mean, if anyone's getting threats or insults hurled at them, I mean, any amount of that is obviously unacceptable.

And it'd be great if we could get that out of gaming and every other arena. But in gaming, it's often more virulent, it seems. but that has been kind of the backdrop to this larger conversation about Stellar Blade, specifically centered on Eve's appearance, right? So Eve is, I guess we could say, sort of a throwback character model to really the whole history of gaming, where gaming marketing, often gaming characters, were kind of catering to the presumed audience of adolescent males, right? And trying to titillate them and trying to say, hey, here's a sexy lady by our game,

you know, just going back to Lara Croft, obviously, to quiet in Metal Gear Solid 5, right? And this game, it's not like dead or alive extreme beach volleyball level of like jiggle physics, but there's a lot of jiggling going on. there is a option to play basically naked, more or less. I mean, in a body suit, you know, basically any outfit. And there's like, what, 35 outfits or something? And it can be fun to collect different skins. But all the skins are skin tight, more or less, many of them, right?

And Eve is, I guess we could say, what, well-endowed in every way one could be, right? So the character is a body scan of an actual Korean model, right? Just the body, not the face, just the body kind of, you know, almost literally objectifying in a sense. And specifically, Eve's rear end, let's say, I would describe Eve's backside as basically looking like a pair of glistening hams stuffed into saran wrap. Jesus Christ, Ben. That seems to be what we're going for here. I mean, the problem also is the fact that, well, first off, with the body scan model, you can tell that, of course they did. Yeah, they scanned her body.

They clearly enhanced her breast, her butt, her hips. Like, even in the model, they changed it. They were still like, hmm, and the person creating it's like, well, when I see things like this, I want them to be hotter than me. And I'm like, so you're not even acknowledging the issue. You're like confirming the issue. I was playing this with my roommate watching a straight male. and he was like, every time her boobs jiggled when she went down a ladder, she moved. I was like, why is her boobs still moving?

And he went, oh, I didn't even notice. And I was like, this is the issue. I was like, this is the problem. She is literally a doll. When I was saying that I'm playing a doll, I was like, it was a doll. She had no mannerisms. And that's like what separates her from, unfortunately, like, I'm not trying to be this person, but separates her from Bayonetta for me is I'm like, Bayonetta had an entire mission.

Like, she herself was a person. Yeah. I was playing a person. I could see myself dressing up even as bayonetta. But like this character was clearly nothing for me. It was just a doll. It was just a doll that I was like, let's run and do these things. You didn't talk.

You have the face of literally a 14 year old girl. I was just, I was like, I don't, I don't have any attachment to Eve itself. Also, she's wearing that damn tie. And I'm never going to be over it. On top of everything else. On top of everything else, that damn tie. And it was, it was like, even when she was running with her friend at the beginning, I was like, are they wearing heels?

I was insane. I mean, pretty much, right? Yeah, and it's not just even. It's basically every character is, you know, ridiculously, conventionally hot, right? I guess is what you would say, right, kind of in that stereotypical sort of way. And the creator of the game, Hyeong Tai Kim, who, you know, they've made previous games, gotcha games that kind of leaned into this. and he has a history of character designs like this in other media

and has not shied away from this, right, and has fully acknowledged and owned up to what they're doing here. I mean, speaking of the butt specifically, the quote was when it comes to the design, we put special attention on the back of the character because the player is always facing the back of the character when they're playing. That's what they see the most of.

So we thought this was pretty important. God, did you see that person online that Photoshop that, Ella Pernell's butt for four-out. That's what it felt like when I read that quote from that man. I was like, you are so addicted to this ass. Are you just like addicted to this? I wasn't even looking at her backside. I don't know what the hell you're talking about.

I was like, I was looking at literally the ruins. I was looking out for danger. I was not looking. What do you mean? I guess that's what a lot of the articles are even about are like 50% of women play games now. Like it's not news to anybody. And you can be any type of woman, but it's like you're catering to.

who this guy is clearly catering to a specific audience. And it's himself. It's what he wants. It's his vision. And I'm just like, I don't know. If you're going to do this, I guess,

it's like make your character a character. Don't make her just like a walking, a walking doll. I'm not playing. I have no connection to Eve. She's literally just like woken up brand new. It felt like I was, this was like poor things.

But with this thing with Eve. I was like, I don't like. I don't like. I don't like this. It doesn't feel right. Yeah. Kim described Yves, quote, again, the most attractive looking body for the user, which, you know, presumes who the user is and what they're attracted to, right, and make some assumptions there. And, you know, not necessarily only dudes or straight dudes, but still, right, you're making some assumptions about who your audience is there. And

historically speaking, at least those assumptions that were just kind of baked into the medium could be kind of exclusionary, right? Like they could send the signal, intentional or not, that, hey, this isn't really for you, right? Like, this is for the guys, you know, this is for them. And that turned off women, girls who wanted to get into gaming, right? At least in some cases. And, you know, again, they said unrealistically beautiful characters, you know, someone who's better looking than myself, something entertainment targeted for adults, right? And okay, like, it's a video game. Obviously,

a lot of things about video games are unrealistic. And, you know, you could say the same thing about non-female video game characters who have, like, heightened physical characteristics and are, you know, super built or muscular or whatever, right? It's not purely limited to female characters in video games, but that has been a big part of the medium's history. And you're right. I think there is sort of a perceived sexualization of the character here, but it's sort of a sexless game, very much so, right? Like, because of everything you're saying,

like Eve doesn't have a lot of personality. It's not like she's, you know, harnessing her sexuality or appears to be aware of it or anything. Like, I guess everyone in this world shares a lot of those traits, so maybe it's just the norm. But she is sort of just a blank slate, which I guess could be intentional. It's, you know, like the biblical Eve.

It's sort of like a Blake slate. You know, she's learning as she goes maybe. But it is kind of like a to be in near kind of character model. It's just, yeah, I don't know whether it would be worse in some ways if they leaned into the sexualization of the character. But it could also be better in some ways if she sort of like owned it or if it were more like Bayonetta. Right. But it's just it's not really like that. And I guess to their credit, it's not like she's, you know, like flaunting it in the like idle animations or something other than when you're on a ladder and she kind of does a pose, right?

But other than that, you know, it's not necessarily calling attention to it explicitly except just in the actual dimensions of the character. So it's a strange mix. It isn't. And then it is in like that I do agree with like it is in the weird like angles that. they choose and the highlights that they choose because even in when I take a rest I'm like what I'm doing here what we're doing here one of the first village you see I think it's at the very beginning it was like a rabid bird like woman and I say a woman because this creature had the biggest boobs I've ever seen in my life and I don't I don't understand and even there I don't understand and I grew up playing a lot of video games and I remember even like with Cortana I was like

what am I doing like I was like what's going on here why did we have to do this it was hard like growing up in seeing these and then realizing, even with these articles today, because I loved Bannetta and I love Samus. I remember when I saw Zero Suit Samus, I was like, oh, okay, yeah, skin tight outfit. I think it's also because in Marvel, like in the X-Men, there's not a woman in a single X-Men suit that's not skin tight, except for Jubilee, and that's because Jubilee is a minor. So it literally is like, I was like, yeah, this is just what superhero women have to look like. And then I realized I'm 30 now. I'm like, you don't, you don't. And it doesn't really make sense to be fighting with a tie.

I'm going back. And it's full circle, baby. I can't stand those gloves and ties. She doesn't know how to accessorize. If I had to create a robot woman, she wouldn't look anything like that. But regardless, I'm like, it isn't inherently like sexual. It's just sexualized. And we know what it's for.

It's definitely unwritten for like a male gaze. And it's just like it's slow little bits of pieces where you realize things are doing it. And you're like, why is this happening? Why is it like this? Why is this? What's going on? I love the stuff of the game. Give this character more of a character.

And then I think I will like her more. but right now I'm literally like, this is crazy that you gave me just like an empty list thing like this and then expect me to be like, iconic. Yeah. Yeah. Love this. Keep it up. And the marketing has kind of leaned into that. Oh, my God.

Uncensored Eve and like, you know, showing the outfits and the character model and everything. Right. So it's clear what they're going after here. And another quote by Kim was that in this gaming environment, he said, this was, quote, somewhat of a brave thing to be going for. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. It's like the Eric Andre.

Why would you say something so controversial yet so brave? I don't know that we're at the point where we can call this brave. I mean, obviously, there has been a bit of a backlash to it. And it has inspired strong emotions. But, you know, what a hero. Maybe I change my mind. I respect this man's boldness. He said, well, I dare you to put the hottest woman in your video game and see how people take it.

Oh, like, oh. My God. Her page on like the PlayStation store is her floating on her backside. And I'll tell you right now, there's one part that it's pretty zoomed in on. And it's her chest. She is laying on her backside with her eyes to you. Also, at the very beginning of the game, she doesn't really speak at all. It's just moans and falling. And I was like, I'm done. I said, I'm done. Take this away from me right now. And yet you played for several more hours. But the world itself, I throw me into that world. I'm sorry. With those monsters and the ruins, I love that part. It just sucks because I like, I do agree with a lot of the criticism it's getting about the character, especially after the creators like standing by it so hard of like, I did a good job. You guys are weird. I'm like, yeah, yeah. And it's, I mean, I guess it is a sign of how the medium has changed and evolved in certain respects that this does seem sort of out of step with the times, you know, with this seems like a throwback, oh, we're still doing this kind of thing, which is what the people in favor of it are

responding to and are like, hey, yeah, we're allowed to still have sexy pin-up-looking ladies in our video games. You know, if you're going to allow body diversity, that's one kind of body that you can have, right? So, I mean, I don't know. Look, I don't get my jollies from staring at the backsides of video game characters personally. Like, there are a lot of ways to indulge your interests on the internet. It's a big. internet out there. Van Lathen has talked about that many times on the Midnight Boys. He can direct you to somewhere if you want to satisfy your appetites here. You don't have to go to skull or plate. Is he wearing the cowboy hat during it? Is he wearing this cowboy hat? The cowboy

has turned Van into an evil person. Slug as he's not wearing a tie at the same time. I would truly piss you off. A bowel tie, maybe with the cowboy hat. That's fine. And when you're a robot wearing a tie, it makes no sense. And she's not a robot. I get it, but like, oh, why would you put it on Alita? Would you put a tie on Alita? Like, it makes no sense. Go on. I was more upset about the fact that you have to press R2 to pick up every item.

Well, you hold it. You can hold it. You can hold it. It's true. But I wish, you know, usually you just walk over these things and they are attracted to you somehow. No, they made you do everything in the game. They made you work in the game.

I'll say that because they had me memorized codes. And then I was like, I don't remember what shapes those were. I took pictures. I took pictures every time of my phone. If you want them. Anyway, I didn't do the hits. Okay, sorry. There's no shortage of female characters in revealing outfits in mass media these days.

So I don't think that is exactly an endangered group, right? So if you're a dude out there who wants to indulge in that, you got plenty of options. And I don't know that we need to make this kind of our culture were controversy, but clearly that has happened. However, I think there is a pretty good game buried under there. And really, once you start playing this game, you won't even notice that much or that long. I mean, occasionally you're like, whoa, okay, yeah, we're still doing this in this game. But for the most part, you know, as you said, there's a lot on the screen, right?

Your eye is going to be drawn to a lot of other things and you're going to get killed if you're staring at Eve in a prurient way instead of staring at your enemies and parrying and dodging. So it kind of becomes an afterthought and maybe it will be once more people play the game, which I think is worth playing. But we waded into the discourse. We waded into Wade and then we waded into the Stellar Blade discourse. Too much Wade. Too much weight. Too much weighting of all kinds.

All right, Jess, like Wade and Knuckles, it's time for us to end with a slow motion high five. And then the show just stops. You're a champion and a warrior. It's always a pleasure to podcast at your side. Thanks for coming on. I really don't want people. to think that I hate ties. Go ahead and wear a tie.

You're going to... In certain contexts. If you're wearing a skin tight suit and a tie, I'm going to hit you. I'm going to find you and I will slap your little face. That is a truly brave choice to wear a tie with everything else she's wearing or not wearing, which, as I said, you can wear like

basically an invisible outfit that comes without the shield. So it's like if you want the added challenge of no shield, then it's even more revealing. There's just a lot of layers to this. or removing layers, as the case may be. Thanks also to Devin Ronaldo for producing today's episode

to the newlywed Arjuna Ramgapal for being somewhat married to his work, as well as his wife. And also thanks to you with a listener for tuning in. Email us at ringerverse gaming at gmail.com. Stay tuned for Ringervorvors recommends. More Midnight Boys and Mint Edition and a bad batch breakdown on House of Ar. We'll be back soon, but for now we've got to go fast.

Thank you.