The Ringer-Verse - ‘Kraven the Hunter’ and a Farewell to Sony's Spider-Man Villain Films | House of Midnight

Episode Date: December 18, 2024

It's time for a House of Midnight like no other! The entire Ringer-Verse crew gathers to discuss the bewildering ‘Kraven the Hunter’ and take a look at all the Sony ‘Spider-Man’ films to determine the major takeaways in this wild cinematic universe. Hosts: Van Lathan, Mallory Rubin, Joanna Robinson, Charles Holmes, Jomi Adeniran, and Steve Ahlman Producers: Steve Ahlman, John Richter, Aleya Zenieris, and Cameron Dinwiddie Social: Jomi Adeniran Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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This is of course the Ringers Nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. This is a special House of Midnight episode. We have the Midnight Boys. Let's give them a Pugh Pue fellas. Along with our sisters

from the House of R. And we want to come together to celebrate and commemorate one of most important movies of the year, something that we had to assemble to talk about, because it's just that important. But before we get to that, we're going to make sure that you guys follow us on socials, Insta, Twitter, Facebook, TikTok, save Jomey's Job.

We're on YouTube, like, comment, subscribe, share. You can watch every Midnight Boys and House of Our episode on YouTube.com backslash at Ringiverse. I'm rushing through this because we have a lot of pod to give you guys, but I have to give you the tomorrow, the Midnight Boys will give you their reactions to episode three and four of Skeleton Crew. The

lucky kids are back. What's going on with Atten? Where are they? What's going on? We'll tell you all about it. Steve's so excited. He loves children. On Thursday, the House of R

will be giving you their deep dive on Skeleton crew. Instant reaction and then deep dive. Also on Thursday, the Midnight Boys, we're going to be back to give you our reactions to the trailer of Superman legacy. And it's a big moment. Yes. Because we're going to know in a matter of seconds whether we're cooked or not. All right, let's not do that.

No, don't do that. Let's not. Come on, bro. Get to that action. But on today's show, we're bringing it together. the Ring of Verse family to talk about the most important film of the year, the most groundbreaking film of the year. Craven

the Hunter. Spoilers for Craven if such a thing can be spoiled, Steve, right away. We're getting ready to talk about the episode. You're listening to a reaction podcast. The spoilers are coming.

Okay, you guys didn't know that we were doing this, but I called a friend for a favor. And it wouldn't be a podcast if we didn't have a midnight manifest. And I know that Chuck was really, really dying to do this.

So Chuck Wagon, take it away. All right. This is your midnight manifest. For Craven the Hunter, directed by J.C. Shendor, written by Richard Wank, Markham, Matt Holloway, starring Aaron Tiller Johnson, Arianna DeBose, Russell Crow, etc., etc. All right, so Russell Crowe picks

Young Craven and Young million up from school and he's like, your mama's dead and they're sad. He's like, damn, you boys are soft. So like many white fathers before him, Russell Crow decides the perfect way to fix them is a hunting expedition to Africa. The rhino without his powers is also there on this hunting expedition and Russell Crow does not fuck with him. While in Africa, young Craven is attacked by a lion and on the verge of death. Thankfully, Arianna DeBose is like, damn man, here's a magic animal power potion. Young Craven then runs away from home because he can't get down with his dad, killing animals and being a mobster.

Then in the present, Craven has devoted his life to taking out bad guys and running around with animals. The rhino, still beefing with the Cravenoff family, kidnaps a chameleon. He also has super strength and super exma. Hyjinks and Sue, Craven teams out with Arianna deposed and they defeat the rhino, save chameleon, and then Craven takes out his dad after realizing he was behind the entire plot. That's been your midnight best. Oh, my gosh.

Sensational. Wow. Charles, your national treasure. Oh, my. A true kid. Definitely better than the movie. Wow. Not hard.

Not hard. Let's not say that. We all, don't, now, don't lie. We all had a blast in that theater. We were laughing the entire time. I had fun of the movies with my friends and a delicious, frankly, full buffet spread from the AMC Century City. It's too early.

And the South Carolina 8. Mal, let's start there. Let's start with our sisters over at the House of Our. Look, I saw this movie not with you guys. I was alone in a theater in Miami. And when I say alone, I mean, I was the only paying customer to a showing of Craven the Hunter in Miami. I was the only person in the theater.

Okay? Yeah. Obviously, this is not a masterpiece. We'll talk about some of the problems with Sony's movie making a little bit later. But, like, Mao and Joe, what were your immediate reactions and feelings walking out of the move? Thank you for asking. First of all, let me say what a pleasure it is to be here with all of you today to celebrate the cinematic event of the century. It's not lost on any of us.

You know, we always enjoy a team up, but we do, I would say, disproportionately, as observed in the reverse group chat recently, come together to talk about Sony movies. So that's something we should all spend some time reflecting on this holiday season. I have been looking forward to Craven the Hunter for years, literal years. Because as everyone knows, this movie was delayed four times, more times than I have an accurate accounting of currently gathering with you all today. And what that meant was that time after time, House of Our Hight Meter after House of Our Hight Meter, I found an excuse to talk about Craven and how much I was looking forward to Craven based. I would say like 40% on being excited about the character and like intrigued about the comics icon, a classic member

of the Rokes Gallery making his way to the screen. And like 60 to 70% because of Aaron Taylor Johnson's abs in the marketing material. So that's what I brought into the theater. You know, it's not what I left with. What I left with was a, months worth of selfies that I'd taken in front of the Craven cut out and sent to Joanna and a lot of despair. I did have fun at the movies with my friends. Charles is right. I was laughing. I was sighing deeply. I was looking side to side thinking about what had gone wrong and how it had gone wrong. I do feel sort of deceived based on the very ab forward marketing material, but I believe there are only three actual shirtless scenes in the film. so that's something I'd really love us to spend a little bit more time breaking down today.

But, you know, if you just really pan back and think about the essential elements, we have a comic book icon played by a really fit, hot guy who loves animals, all the ingredients of a Mallory Rubin special. And so I'm just really lamenting the fact that this movie was such a debacle. It finally killed Sony's Spider-Man universe. But I will celebrate the fact that it gave us all an excuse to share this time together today. Joe, over to you in the studio. Yeah, thanks so much for that report in the field, Mallory. After Mallory saw this movie, she drew me into her study and there was the head of Craven Mountain on the wall. And she said, let this be a lesson to you, Joanna.

I want to talk about two side characters and how I feel they really underline the problem that we have found ourselves with here. first and foremost, Ariana DeBose, an Oscar-winning actress is in this movie. But is she in this movie? How dare you, Joanna? Not my girl. Your girl, Palypso?

That's my question. I have a question about that. Is she actually physically in this movie? I am onshore. Secondly, on the flip side, Christopher Abbott as a foreigner is blameless. He's actually wonderful. in this movie. The character is

cool and intriguing and I'm like, why isn't, why aren't he watching a movie about the foreigner? Don't do this. What did I say? I'm dead. I'm dead. I said, I'm dead. He was cool. I love that. He was cool. No, don't do this.

Don't do this. I was like, I, and then, and then spoiler for Craven, I guess we already said that. He dies and I was like, well, sad. But I would have watched a foreigner spinoff movie. Like, I thought he was, I will watch a foreigner, origin story movie of Chris Abbott wants to make it.

So yeah, the fact that he had more charisma than Aaron Taylor Johnson, an incredibly charismatic performer, is troubling and perturbing. And Craven, I straight up had a bad time with this movie. No, no, no, no. I had a great time with Russell Crow's accent and also Alessandro Nivola's accent, both of which were competing for, have you ever literally heard a Russian in your life? So yeah, that's where I am. So Midnight Boys.

J.C. Shander, the director here, directed Margin Call, all is lost, a most violent year, Triple Frontier, and then Craven the Hunter. That's quite a mix of films right now. Sony was so impressed with his final cut of this movie. They actually Greenlit another movie for him. That's a true fact. I look that up. That's an actual real fact.

Charles, you're the highest on the movie. What do you like about Craven a Hunter? Oh, man. Just what is there not to like? It was the funniest movie of the fucking year. I'm not going to. It's Craven with a K. When that motherfucker when the chameleon was sitting on a piano and they're like,

how do we introduce the chameleon? How do we show the audience that he could do whatever? They're just like, he's going to cover a hair style song. I'm like, let's fucking go. man. Inspired. Inspired choice. Ariana DeBose just

incredible work throughout the entire film. I wasn't really familiar with her game, but I am now great fan. Number one fan. Jomi, don't lie.

I would argue, Charles, you are not familiar with her game because she didn't bring any of it to this ridiculous film. She has it. She just didn't bring it here.

Is this how y'all feel usually when, like, y'all are all really, really positive? And I'm like, I don't know about this. I feel like I'm on an island. I had a great time.

I thought we were going to share and bond over a masterpiece. And I guess that's not what happened. I'll say this. Madam Webb, Craven, all of it. I know we're going to talk about the Sony universe in a bit. Yeah. We made a lot of friends during the way. You know?

It's true. We made a lot of friends. And I would take a bad but funny movie over a bad, boring movie. But I also agree with Mao. not enough abs. I think this movie could easily be like a 70% better movie if they're just like, you know what, Aaron,

shut up with a bad accent. Just take off the shirt. Just walk around the room one bit. This is a really violent movie. The action stretches are actually great, and it should also be a fuck fest, and then it would be iconic. Like, this could have been a pantheonic installment

if we actually leaned into that this is a intense, serious, like, hard-arm movie. the last shot when Craven, I know it's not my turn, I'm sorry. Like, he finally puts on the comic book, right, outfit, and he leans back

into the chair, and he's admiring himself in the mirror, like the cutout at the multiplexes across our country. And I had a moment where I thought to myself, like, are we about to go Robert in industry

season one? Is he about to like whip it off and jack off in the mirror? And that's what should have happened. Whoa. That would have been. That's the kind of energy we needed in Craven the Hunter. They could have done that.

I saw none of that when he sat down as Craven. I was just laughing at the costume. I wasn't just like, yeah, now he's about to just jerk. There are more abs in the trailer. There are shots in the trailer of his abs that are not in the movie. J.C. Shandor, I banned the ab cut of this movie. Doesn't it seem like, They had a thought of a movie they wanted to make and then they wouldn't commit all the way.

Because the movie is hyperviolent. But at the same time, it's got that same comic bookie bullshit tone to it that it doesn't take itself very seriously. It wants to rip heads off, but it wants to rip heads off for kids, it seems like, almost. Because it doesn't get seedy enough. It doesn't get crazy enough. Jomi, I know you loved it. What did you think? The movie stinks.

Like, that's just what it is. It wasn't good. To Joanna's point, and this is like the biggest thing for me, you cast Aaron Taylor Johnson to super charismatic, just a ball of charisma, and you have him do absolutely nothing, the entire movie. Like, what are we doing here?

Quite actually, you know, I do have to give the movie this, though. Alessander Navola, the villain, the rhino was in his bag of movie. Amazing. It was amazing. When he's looking out the window, holding,

like, whatever, and he just goes, ah! For no reason. That's nothing to do with anything. That was good. He's talking to the chameleon. He's like, hey, man, yeah,

I was with your dad. He used to do this thing. It's like, I'd never see him before. He was like, that you still have longer hair. I was dying. Yeah. That's funny to me. Outside of that, though, just horrendous.

I don't know how they put this to screen and were like, you guys are going to enjoy this. It was just, I just thought it was a mismash of a whole bunch of things wrong with the Sony universe. I really agree with Johnny. I feel like Alison Ravolo, who made the Camp Classic face off a million years ago, is like, I know exactly what is required for this. I've done it and I can do it again, watch me do it. and Fred Hesinger, who I love, Fred Heckinger, who I love is just like, I'm in actually quite a serious movie about a troubled young man. And I was like, Fred, I love you. I love you, but you needed your Gladiator 2 energy and you forgot to bring it to the party.

Yeah. Nobody got the same assignment at all. Yeah. Fred was still in White Lotus season one instead of Gladiator 2. That's a tough one. You're right. Totally. The reason Rhino understood the assignment is because Rhino was in a Venom movie. And the Venom movies are actual masterpieces.

Also, I don't know if you know this about rhinos, but they don't hesitate when they see something they want. They just charge right in. And that's what he did in this film. How we are. Good writing. I like that. To me, Rhino was, like, Rhino was carrying the movie.

Every single scene when he was on camera. In his little backpack. His little tube. Where he would Hulk out. it would hurt. Steve, what they did? You're a quiet, Steve. Oh, well, yes.

I agree with everything that everyone has just said. I think the biggest thing that I had, when I had seen this movie, like you, Van, was alone in a theater, almost by myself, but it made it a lot more sad and a lot less enjoyable than if I were to be seeing this with friends. And I think that would be the biggest regret

is to not see this movie with a bunch of like-minded folks like you guys. but the biggest problem to me is the same problem with every Sony movie and it's every Sony like Spider-Man spin-off and it's the fact that it doesn't seem to want to commit to what it is. And like we've said before,

nobody got the same assignment. I don't even know if they had a meeting on set. I feel like people just came in at their leisure and filmed a movie. And with all of these combobulated pieces, yes, the Rino was absolutely the best thing about this movie. but I will not stand for Paul Giamatti erasure. I will not.

That's my rhino. Oh, no. I love Paul Giamati. The two-seen right? I think we deserve is a multiverse where we get all the rhinos together. Yes, and I will be the change of rhinos that I want to see in the world. And that starts with Paul Giamati. So something interesting about the movie.

By the way, the Paul Gia Rottie Rhino is a fucking, it's a debacle. It's an abomination. terrible. It's a fucking abomination. It's terrible. I love it. The only globe winner, Paul Jiamatti? Like, what are you?

When they had him as the rhino. Why are you disrespecting Jamadi right now? Like, what did he ever do you? An abomination guy in a rhino suit not going for it. So it's interesting about this movie. $110 million budget.

$110 million budget, right? It's been a lot of money. We can tell. 13% Rodden Tomato score. What do you guys think the audience percent on the movie is, though?

I know the answer to this. So I won't participate. I looked it up. It's astonishing. Is it like 83%? It's really close. Yeah. Wait, what?

I feel like... It's 73%. It's never go lower than like... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Open up the schools.

They never... It's the first time in recent months, we've had reason to doubt the wisdom of the collective here. The audience, the audience scores on Rotten Tomato, by the way, just like a weird stupid metric,

like never goes below 70-something percent unless it's like a concentrated review bombing effort on a project. Can I say really quick before? Review bomb. Let me tell you. Before we move off the plot, I did realize this, prepping for this.

If you're the, grandma to Ariana Dubos and you're just like you give like an heirloom where you're like this is basically our super soldier serum we made that our family made this and she's like you're gonna know exactly what to do with it when the time is right

and you just give it away to this random child who basically turns into a murderer a white boy as our family the secrets of Africa I was tripping the secrets of Africa and the secrets of Africa and the

the whole nine and the first rich white boy you see you give it to him what the fuck is this movie trying to say yeah and then and he's like oh i've been looking for that my whole life you gotta have some more she's like i ain't had no more he dies again she gives him again she'll never guess she gets him again it's a serious film it's an untrious film it's because she knows we have yet to see the a promo photo from the poster and if you don't get it, we're going to write. Was it 20 minutes of the movie that were with the teenage version of Craven?

It might have been longer. It had to be longer. It's an arduous amount of time. We were there for like three days. It was incredible. Origin story I've ever seen. Literally, I thought they're going to do a couple of scenes and then I got to the point to where I actually checked

my watch. I was like, how long are we going to be fucking with these little niggas? It was, they were, we went all throughout their entire fucking thing. And it really took you out of the movie. That's when I knew we were in for a tough, tough, tough situation. Is this the longest origin story that we've gotten in recent memory in a superhero movie? Like, they don't even last this long in like Spider-Man movies. Like, they get him at high school.

They're like, he got to be swinging around. Is this the longest? I think I, it might be. How long was her mom studying spiders in the Amazon? You know, that's a question. Honestly, not that long, thankfully. Not long enough. Well, but we do kind of go back, right?

Like, humanly. Yeah. So if we add it up all of the minutes, it's still not close to this. Also, like an RRR, we're like, you don't get a title drop until an hour to half. Why?

Every single time they did this shot of his like eye power. That was great. That was like, he was amazing. Okay, so they used that for the cigarette? What did that mean? What did that mean? I thought he was going to, take the cigarette and trace

the smell. Does he tracing the smell of the cigarette? He's just following the van. They identified that the cigarette was Turkish, right? Yeah. That's helpful. Right, right. Detective Craven. Awesome.

So among our cast here, Among our cast here, we have two Oscars and a Tony. Okay, in our main cast. That's a racer for Aaron Taylor Johnson's Golden Globe for

Nocturnal animals. All right. Can we be real about it? This movie is like he got it. I'm just saying. So I want to say this real quick. So we have two Oscars, a Tony and a Golden Globe within our cast here. And

everything is laughable, right? Russell Crowe is like literally in, he's doing Dosayevsky type shit. He's in a like completely different situation. I don't know how to say it. What does Sony not know about making movies. At this point, Morbius, Madam Webb, the Venom movies, which actually are pretty decent

watches, with this type of talent together, and now that we know there'll be no more of these movies, what is it that Sony could never get right about making superhero movies since the amazing Spider-Man movie was over? They're making villain movies, but they were like often unwilling to commit. to like, they were trying to make anti-hero movies to lead up, I guess, allegedly to a center six crossover. So they were trying to give us like iconic Spider-Man villains, but make them, you know, sympathetic, empathetic in some way when perhaps they should have just gone full-blonesies, like, you know, villain stories and that could, like, if, if Craven had just

been a villain instead of a conservationist, he's a hunter, but also, he's a hunter. He's a culture me. It's nervous Grape and the hunter. I don't understand at all. Make Dr. Michael Morbius an absolute psycho. Why not?

You know, instead of the blue blood and like just let him be an absolute monster. Absolutely. You know, if that's what you're going to do, go for it. Don't give me this like halfway wishy-washy bullshit that we've been watching. Absolutely. Also, are we, are we correct in understanding that in a recent news article

that the agreement that Sony had for these Spider-Man films that are focused around villains did not prevent them from putting Spider-Man in these films. Therefore, they could have had they could have had Spider-Man in some form or fashion

in any of these movies and they simply chose not to. That's too easy. You know what I'm saying? That's too easy. Of course. I'm not sure that story was verified. Okay.

I don't... Because if that were the case, then I don't know of a studio situation that was more allergic to success than this outing of villain movies. But it seems to me that, like, at every turn that they try to make something interesting

about a villain, I think with a small thing about Venom, like, Venom is only, like, it only seems to be lightning in a bottle for Tom Hardy's charisma and, like, creative juice that's behind that movie. And then we just kind of rode that goodwill for three other movies.

and for all of these other ones, it's confusing in the sense that I don't think they know what they want to do with these stories. And I think that's the hardest part. Yeah, I think the, I'm actually kind of like of two minds on the Spider-Man. Stop me if you've heard this before, Joana, I'm up two minds of my war with myself.

Guys, I've had so much coffee today. My stomach lining is melting. I... Stop up on cold proof. You cannot see this. must. So I'm of two minds on this because on the one hand, I agree that it seems like absurd. Verified or not, like, let's say playoff the string on the possibility of it. I actually think there's a strong case against centering this era of output around Spider-Man

because that would be happening in tandem against two really successful measuring. You'd be going against what the MCU is doing with Tom Holland's Peter Parker. Now, this group has debated the various Spider-Man's, and, you know, mileage may vary on the success of the particular, like, mentor-mente deployment inside of the MCU. But broadly, that's a irrefutably really successful character and series of movies. And you have the Spider-Verse movies, which are adored, cherished, revered. So you bring out a third Spider-Man in lockstep contemporary timing with that. It better fucking be good.

Flip side, right? You remember that moment at the end of season one of Succession when Logan shows up late for the wedding? And they're like, he's a planet. You just feel like the way that the gravity in the room orients around one force. There's nothing like that in Sony's Spider-Man universe. and they have dunked on themselves by naming it after a character who is only present in absentia. That's fucking weird. They are inviting people to mock their strategy.

So I think that what Steve, what you're saying about just sort of like the absence of a clear coherent unifying principle in the era of connected universes is really apparent here. And in addition to the lean-in fully to the bit aspect of Venom, which like I love about those movies, there is a through line inside of that truth. there is just absolutely no strand of, like Michael Keaton can show up at the end of Morbius all we want. There is no connective tissue between Morbius, mad and Webb and craven. There just isn't. Right?

I would argue is that there doesn't have to be. Like, I don't think you have to have that if you execute on like tone. And the thing about the Venom movies like being a success is this is my take on Venom. As you know, I did not love the third movie, but I do like the first movie after he gets in the lobster tank at the restaurant.

Everything after that in that movie works for me. And the second movie is really that energy through the whole movie. And what that is, is they were just like, fuck it and went completely gonzo with it. And like, that is what you need

for these kinds of characters without a hero story to anchor it. Because what Marvel did is they moved away from sort of like the gonzo tone that is available to you in a comic book universe. But if you're just going to do Spider-Man villains, which is all they have the legal right to do,

why not just go for it? Why is so serious, Sony is my question. And so I think I agree. So my thing is, obviously, Spider-Man being in the movies, gives the movies a North Star and almost a cheat code for them to be pleasing to us. But the question would be, can you make an interesting movie, based upon these premises.

The premise of a spoiled rich kid who lost his mother, has an overbearing mobster father, and becomes the world's greatest hunter, and takes people out. Pretty interesting if you get a good script and you commit to it, right? Can you make an interesting movie about a doctor who is afflicted with this disease

and in order to cure himself becomes this creature of the undead? Could you make a good movie about that, right? Spider-Man or knows? Spider-Man. Is Matt Smith dancing in it? That's going to have a bearing on our answer. You know what I mean? At all.

That's a question I have. So what I'm saying is... I don't know if you could, though. I think you could. I don't think that... I don't know. I don't think that any of those premises with good scripts and an actual commitment from the people making them could be good.

They're almost actually lesser because of the Spider-Man expectations. and the thoughts of the world, and we're reading The Daily Bugle, which is the only thing that exists from the fucking Spider-Man universe in any of these things. Only newspaper in the world, yeah. Right.

So, but go ahead, Jomey, you were saying? I don't think it works because when I think about all these movies, and yeah, they try to make Craven an anti-hero, they try to make Venom an anti-hero, they try to make Morbius an anti-hero, right? When I think about, oh, they're going to go fight Spider-Man, I'm like, why? what's the, what's the, what's the vibe there?

If all they, everybody's want to be, I want to protect people. I want to be the lethal protector. That's what Venom says. Kavana's like, I want to, you know, protect people who are, or are dying. Like what, Spider-Man, you're like, hey, just, hey, stop killing people. That's it.

It's not really, they're not really villains, really. And to Joanna's point, if you're not leaning all the way on that end, we're not, what are we here for? If they're supposed to all come together and fight Spider-Man, that was the goal, right? They're not really evil. I'm not like, ooh, I wonder what Spider-Man is going to do.

They'd be like, hey, we're on the same team, kind of. Hey, just, I need you to chill out a little bit. Stop buying people's heads off and we can keep it pushing. You see that, Jimmy. They really don't mean nothing. You said that, Jimmy, but it really took until someone uttered the word Martha to give Batman and Superman on the same side. So, you know, any hero can fight a hero if they want to.

But I actually, I actually agree with you. I just, I like, I don't see a world in which event and fight Spider-Man and it makes any sense to us at all, you know? Do you think it's more successful if they don't do the thing that they were trying for years, which are the, like, we're building to the Sinister Six. And I'm like, would this have been better? Like, you know what? We're just going to do the Sinister Six and see what, like,

similar to like James Gunn's Suicide Squad. We're like, we're going to see what characters work in this. And then you get Peacemaker. Because I'm like, they kept doing these like half steps. And I'm just like, I don't know if the audience is going to be with y'all for Morbius. It's, Morbius don't even have, can anybody name a classic Morbius story? Probably not. Like, let's be real.

Madam Webb, nobody gets to fuck about Madam Webb. Sorry. So, like, the Madam Webb one was the one that was really, I was like, they really must be, they smelling themselves right now. Just because, so all of these movies, like, so all of these movies, when these movies coming out, I was like, Craven? But, like, I had seen Craven, right? So I had seen Craven. Like, Craven had been around. Morbi, I'm like, Morbius, but I had seen Morbius.

Venom actually made a lot of sense to me. But when they did Madam Webb, I was expecting some revolutionary shit because I haven't like seen her in a comic book since like 1989. And by the way, and by the way, and by the way, by the way, I can't say that Morbius was whatever. In all of these movies, there's the skeleton of a good time, which is the most frustrating thing. I enjoyed

I enjoyed my time in Madam Webb partly because it was just so ridiculous All right man But look when I left Craven Brough, Rhino was legit cool When Rhino and Craven were facing off I was thinking how do Craven go pull this off Rhinos don't stop

You are thinking How is David going to pull this off I would really think Just the absolute thing I'm craving to get out of this one. I really was thinking that. Rhino was unstoppable unstoppable. Yeah.

You needed Ariana to both to just shoot one more arrow out of a complete lack of character development but to save the day and kill the quote in the film. Why? Do you think that there was a love story between those two and then they realized

there was no chemistry and they cut that shit out? She's filled us his love interest. For sure. Like she is and it's just like the movie is downright chased. And so she's like, I'm a lawyer. Also, you suck. And I, at what cost, and I don't even

like you, but I will follow you to the ends of the earth and give you a precious vial twice. He popped the owner at a funeral. He, like, he literally, he popped up owner at a funeral. And he's like, don't worry. I already killed someone for you.

And she's good. And then they went to the same park that the Eternals, the end of Eternals happened at, apparently. And just looking over London. That's a curse. Oh, Camrose Hill, right? Yeah.

That's a good bench. Notting Hill. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The only bench in London, by the way. Clearly. The only bench that exists. If we're being positive, the chase scene when they kidnapped

Chameleon and Craven is like running on all fours was legit. Like, that was lit. The action scenes were great. That was great. Craven snapping a guy's head with a fair trap. That was insane. That was amazing. Like, just if the whole movie had been that.

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That's the answer. Dabbled in a mouth. Medical port? Yeah. Tough. Tough. Obviously, he is that subsequently crushed, but it really seemed like that did the bulk of the, the damage given the, um, magical eczema that Charles mentioned previously.

I think it could have survived just the crushing force of the Humvees. It's really the internal bleeding, right? Is that what we're introducing? I felt for rhino. When that happened. I was like, damn, not my man, in such a violent way. Guys, this movie is really good. Like, well, not really good.

I can't lie. Okay. Counter-question. The second that you saw him plug and unplug his little Ivy, like, camel pack back in, where you instantly like, so that will be how he dies, right? This very visible and easily reachable. I'm right. They're going to do the pain.

This is the pain shit. At least you had to reach down for the Achilles heel or aim your arrow in the right place. like it, this is just like wrist level, hip level. Come on. Can I say so, so I didn't realize that Rhino was in the movie going into the movie. I don't know how I missed it, right? I don't know how I miss it that Rhino was in the movie. Same.

I didn't realize that Rhino was in the movie. So when he has the backpack on, I'm like, why is this motherfucker going to backpack? And then he, when he gets out and talk to the guys and he starts turning into Rino, I legitimately had a moment of awe where I was like, oh shit, that's fucking rhino. And then I waited for the whole rest of the movie for him to rhino up. And then when he did, I'm sorry,

I was not disappointed. I knew that his Achilles Hill was going to get stabbed in this little hole, though. I knew that that was going to be the thing that got him. He wasn't thinking about that. And that's the only penetration we got in this entire fucking how many of us? A lot of people got stabbed, Mal.

A lot of people got penetrated with like tiger teeth and stuff. You're right. I retract the comment. Of the millions of dollars that they spent on this film, how many pennies do you think they spared for the Rino CGI? That's my question. The face is just. It's really funny.

They had $3 and they used to use all of them. Every of those $3. But also, Jovan, I can't let y'all get away with the foreigner sucked. I hated him. This was terrible. He was terrible.

every single time he was just like, I'm behind you now. I'm like, I get his motherfucker up to see. Did explain that, by the way, would you show up. He mesmerizes them with his eyes. He's hypnotizing them.

And then he mesmerizing them. I watched every episode of girls. And so I believed it. Exactly. Wow. I believed in the house. No, no, no. It was Charlie on girls, right?

Yes. Yeah. That's one was annoying. I'm like, no, I seen you in downtown Brooklyn. You ain't, you ain't, you ain't no.

fucking supervillain, bro. He looked great in a great turtle neck. He looked cool as shit. He knows his floor and fauna. Give me more of the foreigner. I would watch it. I liked him. He just,

he's silver bullshit. Turns your gun around, face you. He's a scam. I just, I'm having a great time with him. Also, and the chameleon,

he sucked too. I couldn't with the chameleon, bro. It was rough. Charles, you're, you're like our most, renowned music critic on this on this podcast.

On a scale of one 10, how would you rank going through changes as the song choice at the end of the movie before the chameleon? Honestly, honestly, you guys are going to think I'm lying. I was there for it. It did kind of like, because I was, here's a thing. Even if I didn't like grown up chameleon, the little two youngans, I did feel for him

when he's like, damn, you're going to leave me with Russell Crow? So I really, I was happy with all the song choices, except Harry Styles. I felt like we could have done Cisco's thong song. We could have done genuine differences. We could have done a lot of shit there. Also, can I just say, what was going on with his voice when he's like, I can imitate anyone and it would just be Russell Crow's voice? Like he wasn't even trying.

They were just like ADR the voicing. Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, you had to sound exactly like. So that they could say like 17 times in the movie. I'm like, okay, Mallor, are you prepping for that? He really only said it once, though I understand. I thought it was twice. Russell Crow says it.

He's like, there's definitely more than one reference to his chameleonic nature. Yes. He does Tony Bennett for me because I don't trust anyone who doesn't like Tony Bennett. What are you talking about? Speaking of Russell Crow, we haven't talked specifically about Russell Crow. I really do feel like Russell Crow in this movie, he's trying to bring it. He's being old Russian vodka-dripping oligarch from like a John Wick movie.

He's trying as hard as he can and nobody will play with him. I feel like Russell Crow was semi-decent in the movie. He was really good. Have we brought up, though, the pouring drink scene yet? what do you want to say about it? I don't think we have, no. When he was just like, I'm going to pour you a man, like a man's drug. Oh my God.

Right. Yeah. Edwin was, it was just a swig. Outrageous. What I wanted was for that to be one more test for his fail sons. Like you thought that was a man's drink like and then just. It's just incredibly funny. Because he goes off.

of the way to be like, pour a man's drink. And it's not even half a shot. When craving gets the neurotoxin and he's like forced the, you know, the hallucinations and he sees spiders everywhere. And his mom was like, spiders,

spiders. I mean, what is that if like other than being like a Spider-Man set up, what the fuck was that? Oh, I hated that. I hated it. Very weird. I was out. I was out on that shit. I was like, Come on, Joanna. This movie, which is way longer than it should be,

smacks of, like, having cut, like, they cut, like, 25% of the story out. It barely makes sense, and it's still too long. How? Too long and yet too short at the same time. I couldn't understand. How do you guys? Man, when you texted all of us and demanded,

we all get on a Zoom together to talk about this movie, is this what you envisioned? Is this? Yeah. Because I've been. because there's no way for me to like aptly

kind of put together my thoughts, even with the boys and what I was thinking about the movie because it means so much. It's the movie that killed an idea.

Like the Sony like the Sony movie universe is over. It's over. Right? And so it's actually sort of a monumental type of thing

in a way that after Venom the last dance came out, there was talk, and you never know what to believe, that Sony had a whole plan for Noll, that Noll was going to be in four different movies and Noll was going to be this big bad

and all of this stuff was happening and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. This movie not having a post-credit scene tells you that they said enough, done no more. So we're signing off from the Sony villain verse, and when I walked out of the theater, I was like, yeah, that's probably it.

They can't, they're not fucking, around no more. They're still doing the live action Spider-Man noir series for Amazon Prime with Nick Cage. What could possibly go wrong? I will watch every second of that and look forward to talking about every second of it with all of you. I know. I think we should expect that to be a very special and memorable time, memorable how who can say. Before we move on to actually going through the funeral performing the funeral rights for Sony's Spider-Man universe, quick question for everyone. You have to pick, you can only keep one. Russell Crow's accent in this movie or

Russell Crow's accent. It's Thor. It's the Thor accent. Because in terms of like Russian oligarchs, it's Kenneth Brana and Tenet. Like that's the... I'll have to take your word for it.

I couldn't understand a single word in Tenet. It's Ken Brana and Tenet being like, do you know what I admire about the tiger? That's way better than anything Russell Crow does in this movie. But whatever Russell Crow Greek... accent he was doing in Thor, that's the one. Can I ask you guys? Industry question, which pocket universe do you think was more damaging to its company?

The Snyderverse or the Sony Spider-Man? Or the Dark Universe. Or the Dark universe. Dark universe. And the rest of all the answer. All of points. Russell Crow has been a part of all three. Yes.

Yes, he has. Damn. You hate to see it. I would say, but the dark universe is easily the dark universe, though. The dark universe. It's got to be the dark universe. It's got to be the dark universe. It's the same thing with Russell Crowe and Tom Cruise and Angelina Jolie and Javier Bardem.

I kiss it every night before I go to bed, Jomey. I think about it all the time. It's more of the best thing I've ever seen. But honestly, honestly, though, the thing with the dark universe is this is why sometimes when we're having these, oh my God, what a great huge bankable behemoth Tom Cruise is as a movie star. I'm like, you guys,

there were some lean years where some shit came out. I remember going to see that shit. I was like, yo, what the fuck is going on? It's like, it's fucking terrible. But that, that they made a big deal about it. And then at least these Sony movies got some sort of critical track,

of cultural attraction. Venom. I mean, they, commercially I feel like Sony's probably like like Madam Webb supposedly is popping on Netflix motherfuckers are like hell yeah I'm watching Madam Webb

so not as bad Yes but they're like Because of the memes They're hate watching Madam Webb They're like I couldn't bring myself to see in the theater But I would like to understand The rich source material behind the memes What her mom was doing in the Amazon

Studying Spiders just before Guys guys When all the girls are in the diner. Yeah. Pretty funny. Gets on the table. Hilarie. The car comes straight through and they all start freaking out. Amazing stuff.

Honestly, these movies were actually pretty good. On the whole, I'm going to miss this universe. That's not true. I'm going to miss it. I'm going to miss it. Definitely. At least 60% of these movies were watchable to entertaining, which I think is like a good shooting average.

No, these movies. 60%? These movies are just. burning stacks of cash in order to provide you with absolute schlock that is fun to make fun of with your friends. But we can do that on a much lower budget without wasting talented people's times. Like that's what, you know, we used to live in a society where when you made something. We used to go to the moon. What did we keep Dakota Johnson from with Madam Webb?

What did we keep her? Damn, Steve with the drive by. God, damn. I like Dakota Johnson. Wow. Wow, that was crazy. Steve. He used to live in a society where when we made shitty movies, we made it with nobody.

actors and nobody directors. And for low budgets, and then we would watch them on late night television, and that was the end of the day. Now, our major motion pictures, our tent pole films are trash, and we're like, that sounds great to me. No, nay,

I demand better for us. Joanna, on any other episode, I would be on your side, but we're not trying to hear any of that negativity right now. This is a positive circle. Okay. So, the movies, the movies were budgeted at between $595 and $639 million for the six films. The box office ended up being around $2.13 billion or one in-game.

Subtract the first, subtract the first venom for that. Even the second venom. Yeah. The venom movies were pretty successful. most of these films They're very successful Most of these films Did any movies outside of Venom

Did any movie outside of Venom Even make back its budget? It looks like Madam Well It actually did Madam Well broke even It looks like Really? Good for her.

Great. Oh yeah. How yeah. I think no, Morbius Turn to Profit for sure. Oh shit? It's Mormon time. Remember the movie came out?

The thing that we don't, the thing that's invisible inside of a budget, though, often is like the promotional marketing. Like the promotional marketing budget is invisible. And so these like sort of it made a profit or it broke just broke even is often not true. Losses for the studio. And it's also loss of, you know, gloss, loss of prestige.

Right. The claim, you know. But in place of prestige. acclaim, self-respects of consequence. Dignity. Box office returns, critical praise,

in place of all that. I would posit that we left with something. Currency that we value our memories. Our shared experiences. Yes. Everyone on this Riverside link

until the day you leave this mortal coil will remember what it felt like when an intrepid soul stood up, I believe, I want to say, was this like Comic Con around House of the Dragon and asked Matt Smith about Morbin time? And he had not a fucking clue what that person was talking about. That was something that we got to share and enjoy together. And that's meaningful.

Yes, it is. I think if we're giving like credit to this universe, I think that this is the superhero universe that inspired the best memes. We got morbin time. We got Amazon. We got the Amazon means. Wait, am I memory holeing where basically Sony put Morbius back in theaters because they thought people would actually go to see it?

Yes. Yes. Guys, we got entertaining me. Jared Leto on his Twitter, reading the script for Morbius 2, it's Morbin time. We had the most fun, we had the most fun having fun.

having fun with these movies, but I'm not, I'm not sad that they're gone. Because, because you know why? I'll tell you why. First of all, I didn't realize that the first Vennam made $856 million.

That's a legitimate Hollywood blockbuster. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. That's a legitimate Hollywood blockbuster. Okay, for sure.

But every single time, one of the movies would come out. That's nearly half the total. that you read out. It's nearly half. For sure. All of the movies. Yeah.

Not great. Every time one of these movies would come out, for some reason, I would think that they were going to get it right. I don't know why. Charlie Brown with the football, really? Bro. Charlie Brown with the football. Craven comes out and it's like they got Russell Crowe.

They got Triple Frontier. They got Ariana DeBose. so old girl did the thing. They got all of these people in the movie. And they got all of these people in the movie. I'm like, they just, at some point, they're going to fuck around and make a good one. Because at this point, you would fuck around

and make like a really good one. And they couldn't do it on accident. So my, thanks for the memories, but we got to move on from Sony, man. We have to. We hardly knew you. The Sony Spider-Man universe with no Spider-Man in it. They're making such absolute trash these days.

They're Ghostbusters films. Like, they're just, the folks running the show at Sony are straight up. Hey, the Spider-Verse got some directors, though. So beyond the Spider-Verse got directors. No plans for 2025. Yay. I mean, I want to, Amy Pascal left Sony is doing the Spider-Verse movies. her Pascal productions is doing that.

But the rest of Sony is Pascal less. And you can say what you want about Amya Pascal, but it has been way worse since she left. So, yeah. True. Just check her emails, though. Let's check her emails. That's not.

Hey, man. Straight up uncool. Hey, man. Come on, man. Straight up uncool. Jesus Christ. Woof. I know.

She actually is, obviously, her and Scott. They're obviously, you know, fantastic filmmakers. They just don't like Obama. So it is what it is. Look, so as we sign off, because well, I don't feel like we need to spend too much time here. We have to answer the question Joanna posed in the group chat the other day. What was the low point? Like, well, if you have to pick one low point from this experience, right?

From Craven or from the whole thing? No, the whole thing. Like, what was the most thing you saw in a? We've got to really, yeah, this is where we each take our shovel, you know? Yeah. Okay. So I'll go first. Rip hit it alone on yellow stone, but we're each going to grab the shovel and put one heap of dirt on.

I'll go first. Low point, high point. The low point for me is easily the Madam Webb reveal at the end of Madam Webb. It was preposterous. It was absurd. It looked like the end of a 30 rock sketch. Yeah, it was absurd. That's the low.

point. The high point, and you guys can talk about it after, the high point to me is at the end of Venom the last dance when Venom and Eddie have to say goodbye

to each other. I realize just how much I enjoy them being together, man. I really, I really caught you like the end of past mysterious. Yeah, turned to me and like shoved a dagger in my heart

and was like, they did it, Joanna. And I was like, you're hating with me. The whole movie. The whole movie. You were hating with me. And then you were like, they did it, Joanna. Yeah. Is the low point that this collective universe was named the Sony Pictures universe of Marvel characters,

a.k-a-a-the-S-P-U-M-C? That's so funny. The Spumka. Is that the actual low-prim-com? to the U to the M to the P. I'm going to have to give it to, I think it is literally anything to do with Dr. Michael Morbius. That was it for me. That's it for me.

That's one of the worst things I've ever seen in a movie theater. All of Dr. Michael Morbius. But was the high point also in Morbius when Matt Smith was dancing? That's it dancing shirtless? Mel, how about you? What's your, or yeah, Steve? My low point, I think, is, you know, the moment in Madam Webb when it's in the, in the, God, what a shit show. This is the part of the beginning.

I can't believe this was real. When Ezekiel's like in the background of the shot speaking. And even, but even though he's in the background, you can clearly see that his mouth is not moving. Oh, the ADR. That is the low point. The fact that that made the final cut. I mean, throughout, but that one was so galling. Like, that was the like coffee cup making it into Thrones of this experience.

It's just like how. And then just to offer a little bit of variance from Vans' high point, which I probably also would have picked great, great moment. I'll go with Minham and Mrs. Jen dancing to dancing, quaint. which was genuine no notes. Did you see the behind the scenes of that scene with the guy in like his CGI suit with his like with the stilts that he were like they mocapped that. Wonderful. Remarkable. Great stuff.

Show me what's your low point? It's actually really funny that Mal said that. My low point is venom dancing with Mrs. Chay. Yes. Thank you. That was one of the worst things that I've ever seen. That's one of those things where that goes on.

You're like, all right. So none of us, like we all know this is a bit, right? They have a special relationship. I now understand that you do not take this seriously at all. And so now we have a firm understanding of what this is. Okay, you use this. You got to check. Congratulations.

Bet, say no more. I'm not taking this movie seriously because you are not taking this movie seriously. I'm glad that we all understand that. That was that for me. My high point, however, man, that credit scene in Vennel, when you see, what's his name, Woody Helson with the bad wig, I was like, oh, that's a good one. I sometimes think of what it would have been like to have been potting with Joe at that time and to have been gone, you got to like directly enjoy wig watch TM with Joanna Robinson for that moment.

I did write down a wig watch note for Alice and Ernst & a little rhino, young rhino and his hair in the flashback. Steve, what's your low point high point? Low point for me, it's both in Madam Webb. It's the, the CGI Pepsi can. We saw it, the barbecue that like dependent on where

that person was holding a Pepsi can, the logo did not turn. Got to get that money. Money. The movies don't pay for themselves. High point is obviously in Venom, let there be carnage,

when Woody Harrelson is beating our hero and saying that that's bad journalism. Oh! Oh! Yeah. That's bad journalism. That's a staple. That's a staple.

That's a staple. A great one. Good meme. Great meme. Quick runner up is when you got them internets and he puts his fingers in the Ethernet ports. Yes. That was insane.

That was a crazy thing that happened. But there be carnage. Wonderful. Absolutely incredible. I have been a great. minutes when you take away the credits. And that's what you need. That's what you really need.

Get in, get out. Loved it. I believe that was like the first time I went back to a movie theater during COVID. Whisper benem let there be carnage. I think so. I'm pretty sure. Yeah. No way.

Yeah. Just in case anyone's watching or listening to this and they're like, have you guys silenced Charles, we have not. His internet's coming in and out. His computer crashed from a technical standpoint. No. What do we think? Charles's low point would have been.

What do we think his high point would have been? His low point is his podcast. Should we text him and ask? His low point is his podcast where we are shitting on something that he has decided to commit to the bit and say is great. His high point would have probably been bad journalism, though. Because he loved, because we went nuts with bad journalism dropped. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Charles, we've each awarded our low point and our high point in the history of this cinematic universe.

Care to chime in? High point easy when carnage, hopefully nobody stole this, connected to the worldwide way. Through a USB or out of a computer. Amazing. Amazing.

Low point. Honestly, the weird spider people in Madam Webb. When she went to the Amazon, that was a little. Her mother was studying a site.

All that shit. Oh, you know what? Actually, I change it. This is also in Madam Webb. The, like, just the egregious Pepsi of it all. Every shot.

Would you like Mike Eps holding the Pepsi can and then Dakota Johnson holding the Pepsi can? Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. It is beautiful. Boy, Madam Webb came up a lot.

Maybe it is the friends we made along the way. Maybe it is the collage of you posing near a shirtless Craven Sandy that I now have on my phone. Also was Mike Epps and Madam Webb. Yes. Mike absolutely. You did not imagine that.

Yes. Yeah. He was. Did they kill him off? He was. I was very sad. That was also a low point. When it killed off my gaps, I'm like, damn.

What about when I'm thinking of saving the baby, Peter. Also, when Dakota Johnson was at the baby shower? Yeah. So wait. We watched three Sony movies this year, right? We watched three. Madam Webb. Let their be, the last dance.

Oh, shit. Yeah. Fuck Mary Kill. For the, for the move? For the three movies, for three movies. How do you fuck a movie? Well, actually, I guess I, you know, I think we all know. I don't know.

Fuck Mary Kill. Hmm. I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to marry Vindle. I'm going to marry Vim. I'm going to fuck Craven and kill Madam Webb. That's the answer. There you go.

That's the answer. Yeah. That's got to be the answer. That's the answer. Yeah. That's the answer. Damn. Yeah.

Did we do it? And if we got to fuck Craven, there'd finally be some sex in that movie. Great stuff. Guys. What a time this was. Let me tell you something. This is a blessing.

As a crew, as a house of midnight, we have made it to the end of not just this podcast, but the end of the Sony Spider-Man Heroes universe. Billings universe. It's over. It's not the Sony universe we wanted, but it's the one we deserved.

You know, I had literally written out a whole obituary, but I'm not going to do it. No, I don't want to do it. Do it. Read it. Read it. Read it. Read it. Read it.

Read it. Read it. Read it. Read it. Read it. Read it in Russell Crow's accent. Well, ADR and it in later. But so.

Like, what, what then, last thing, hope. Hope is the thing we always leave on here. Hope is this. Okay. If Sony is going to be in the Superman, if Sony is going to be in the superhero game, what do we want from them? Do we want the hoaring of the Spider-Man IP?

Or what do we want from them? Do we want more animation? Do we want live action Spider-Man separate from the MCU? this is definitely not what we wanted. What is fair to ask from Sony before we get out of here if they're going to be in the genre of the space that we cover? Ladies first. Well, I heard you guys all are just clamoring for live action Spider-Man War.

So there's that. I mean, I do think that there are like, I'm getting what I want. There are good spider stories to tell. It's just, I think what we've all circled, and I think Charles or Steve is one who actually said this, is just sort of like, just stop trying to make the fetch that is a center six happen. And you've got other stories you can tell in the Spider-Man universe.

The list of characters that they have access to is insane. It is so long. It's paid like when we were doing the Marvel book, we printed it out. It's just pages and pages and pages of characters that they have the legal access to because of this deal that they have with Marvel. And so this experience. FRILED, try again. There are other spider characters that you can do a better job with.

Yeah, I mean, not to be like too obvious and reductive about it, but like good movies with an intense, some vision, and a little soul. Like, we have, we're in the era of like glut and ubiquity, right? And so I think often the things that we respond the most sincerely to are the things that feel like they have like a real purpose and a sense of self. And like, I actually mean that sincerely, right? Like, if you're, that is genuinely as why I like the venom movies is because they are, and Charles and I had a really fascinating conversation with Sean about this with the third one,

where Sean actually felt like like that series that kind of eaten its own tail in that respect, like becomes so self-aware. And then like kind of also in that era of big IP movie making, right? Like where you can go too far on the self-aware scale. But like, know what you're trying to. to do and then do that unapologetically. And like people will respond to something that feels like it's authentic, not just like something that it's existing for the sake of having access to the IP and trying to make money. There's just too much choice. There's too much choice in the movie theater.

There's too much choice at home. There's too much choice in any number of different forms in culture right now. So you got to make something good. That is like a very obvious thing to say, but it's, I think, the starting point, right? And like when you watched Venom, the first Venom movie, whether you had any interest in that character or that property heading into that, you were probably going to leave saying, that was definitely a movie that knew what it wanted to be. And so it was memorable. It left an impression.

And it was something that people then wanted to experience and understand and talk about. And here we are all this time later still talking about it. Now, we are also talking about Madam Webb. Came up a lot today for very different reasons and in very different ways. I actually do think, weirdly, we will be talking about Madam Webb for quite some time. I don't know that we will have an excuse to think about Morbius for like the rest of our careers or lives. And that's really the tragedy.

Like making something utterly forgettable, that's the miss. That's kind of what I mean is like this all feels, even Venom to a certain degree feels like kind of culturally disposable at the end of the day. Like I understand that like it's lit up our lives in various ways the last couple years. But I don't think it's like 10 years from now someone new was going to be like, I want to watch Venom. That sounds exciting to me. You know what I mean? It feels like a sort of you had to be there moment and it's not going to endure. And I want us to make more stories that last for the memes is not it.

You know, so. Give us Miles Morales, you know, throw it a bag at Cindy Sweeney, be like, hey, yo, we got a black cat movie. Like, we can't do all the cute shit no more. We don't care about these characters. Just give us the ones we care about. Signed Tom Holland to another three-picture deal. Stop playing around. Just it's.

No, no, no. I don't want the sea listers anymore. Yeah, I think that's the right move. You got to get Miles Morales in live action. I mean, yeah. I'm not answering. Sorry, Jim, man, I don't mean to go to you off. I want to hear everything you have to say,

but I just want to say really quickly, like, the sea listers can go. Iron Man was like a sea lister. You know what I mean? Like, you don't have to have a top-tier character to make a top-tier movie or a top-tier franchise. There's a difference between Iron Man and Morbiust stuff. Like, there's levels to the sea list.

Correct. Jomey, I'm sorry, I cut you off. He's right. You know, it's also like, it's Robert Downey Jr. Like, there is a little bit like, oh, there's no bad characters. I'm like, no, no, that's true. But also like, not everybody's Fabro. Like, no, not everyone's Fabro, not everyone's Downey.

But like, you know, Tom Hardy kind of pulled it off. But as it turns out, Jared Leto doesn't have that juice. So who knew? I maybe could have told you that, but you didn't ask me. So that's okay. Yeah. You got to play the hits, man. Got to play the hits.

Give us Mous Morales. Give us Green Goblin. Do like, you know what I'm saying? Stop. You're being cute. You're being coy. Give us the people what they want. Lock in.

Be serious. Be dedicated to something. And even if it isn't finding the most popular character, find the best idea that you can and commit to it. And don't find a thing that is going to make excuses for either cutting corners or squeezing out the most amount of profitability. because at the end of the day, you're still going to end up with a loss

because it'll just be seen as a product and not anything else. Yeah, well, whenever they come out, we'll see it. Yeah, what's your, my hope is that people put story first. Whatever the character is, whatever the thing

is, just put story first. Put story first, put craft first, and understand that while we are in a way captured by the imaginations and the fantasies that we had when we were kids, were not lobotomized by them. And it sometimes feels like they think it's one way

and not the other. That's what I would say. Okay. Okay. Nicely said. That is a wrap. Tomorrow, the Midnight Boys, we'll give you their reactions to episode three

and four, Skeleton Crew. And Thursday, House of R will be giving you their deep dive on skeleton crew. The plucky kids are plucking it up. We're loving it here. The Ring of Vers, Charles is liking it. We'll see how he feels about these next two episodes.

Also on Thursday, the Midnight Boys will be giving you their reactions to the teaser of Superman Legacy. Once again, a very high-leverage. teaser trailer. I can't think of a time where I felt this way before. Maybe Phantom Menace.

Christ. But it's a high leverage. Let's not, man, save it. It's not. It's not. All right, man. No. Our producers

are Steve, the architect almond. Alea, S.O.B. Zanaris, with editing by Cameron Dinwiddie and Jomi dinner on on socials. Chuck, please.

Take us out. Madam Webb was pretty bad. Craven was fine. This universe is thankfully dead, but it will always be morbent time. You do.