The Ringer-Verse - 'Loki' Ep. 2: Analysis, Themes, and Theories

Episode Date: June 18, 2021

Mallory Rubin is joined by Joanna Robinson of Vanity Fair to discuss the key themes and ideas brought to the table during "The Variant," the exciting second episode of 'Loki' (04:00). They also dive into their favorite theories of what this season could bring in the coming episodes. Then, Mal and Joanna are joined by Jomi Adeniran to answer your mailbag questions! (88:51) Host: Mallory Rubin Guests: Joanna Robinson and Jomi Adeniran Producer: Steve Ahlman Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal and TD St. Matthew-Daniel Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The press box is here to catch you up on the latest media stories. Hosted by Brian Curtis and David Shoemaker, these guys have the insight on the biggest stories you care about. Check out the press box on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks,

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Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramfaya today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Tramphiara.com. The playoffs are here and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul predict the spread, total points, and even the game winner. Sign up and get a $25 bonus. Offered by Fandul Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant, 18 plus.

Bonus is non-withdrawable and experience. buyer seven days after receipt. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at vanduil.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. I mean, you really believe in all this stuff, don't you? I don't get hung up on believe, not believe. I just accept what is. Three magic lizards. Timekeepers. Created the TVA and everyone in it, including you. Including me. You see, every time I start to admire your intelligence. You say something like that.

And welcome into the ringerverse here on the ringer podcast network. I'm Mallory Rubin, co-host to binge mode, head of editorial here at the ringer. And it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only to Rock's cart, but to join us on the ringer's nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. Before we dive into today's episode, a few reminders. The ringer verse has entered its nexus event. We are in a new timeline. The Midnight Boys, Van and Charles, phew, pew, we'll be with you every Wednesday during the Loki run with their instant reaction to the latest episode, their episode two instant reaction, already up for you on the feed. Check it out if you haven't, as is, by the way, a special bonus episode and

audio feature from Charles. Charles and Steve did an awesome job with that. Check it out. And I will be with you on Fridays during the Loki run to dive into the themes. theories, your mailback questions, and more. Follow the Ring ofverse on Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us across our social channels. And bear in mind, of course, our friendly neighborhood spoiler warning. This episode will contain plot points from Loki's second episode, The Variant, as well as details from the entire MCU run to date.

Going to get into some comics canon, all of it. So please proceed with more caution than Loki's horned friends. down in Pompeii, okay? And I am delighted to say that joining me today, now that she's finished inquiring about the merits of jet skis, it's everyone's favorite time criminal. You can read her work in Vanity Fair and on VanityFair.com. You can prepare yourself for the splendor of her impending book co-authored with Dave Gonzalez on the complete history of Marvel Studios. And You can listen to her exemplary Marvel analysis, her interviews every week on Vanity Fair's still watching podcast.

It is Vanity Fair Senior Writer and my eternal fellow Jora Mormont and cat enthusiast, Joanna Robinson, welcome back into the ringerverse. I just need to call you sometimes, Valerie, and have you do like a little hype sesh for me. Nothing ever fills me with so much Vim and Vigure. If I were wearing a brown TVA jacket right now, I would pop my collar, an acknowledgement of this joyous occasion. Hello. Hello.

Hello. And your jacket, your TVA jacket, it wouldn't say variant. It would say Professor Robinson. I needed Professor Robinson. You know, Mobius has Professor Loki, as he liked to say in this episode, I need Professor Robinson. We have a lot of philosophy 101 to get to today. A lot of talk about the nature of existence and also the nature of an excellent TV show

because Loki is two weeks in and it's fucking great. And honestly, I want to just start there with early impressions. Two episodes in. Yeah. How are you feeling about the show so far? Well, like you, I think I got these two episodes in advance. So I've been sitting with them for a little while, right?

And the first time through them, I was a little surprised. So it was a six episode series, right? So we're a third of the way done. Third of the way already. Unbelievable. Yeah. And I was just a little surprised. Like the pacing, I had questions about the pacing.

It felt like a little slower than I had expected it to be, if that makes sense. And then I kept rewatching it. And I rewatched the episodes an embarrassing amount of times at this point. And then every time back through, I enjoyed it more and more. And so I don't know what the experience is for folks watching it week to week. But for me, you know, that's in my experience. And I just find more to love every time. There's just more going on every time that I watch it back through.

And, you know, not to spoil something that you might say because I see it in the notes here. But I do think the dynamic between Mobius and Loki between Owen Wilson and Tom Hiddleston is just like worth the price of admission alone. So, yeah, I'm having a great time. Like my one question, though, and I want to throw this back to you, is like something that head writer Michael Waldron said to me and said to a number of other people is that, like, what he wanted was for each of these episodes to feel very distinct. Like, this is the one where Loki X or whatever.

I'm not sure I'm feeling that in these first two episodes, you know, like this is the one where Loki goes to TVA is maybe the first one. and this is the one where Loki goes to the rocks cart? I don't know, is this one? But, like, I think I was expecting more distinctive flavors. And we might get that coming up. Yeah. Absolutely.

But that's just sort of where I'm having a blast, is my shorter answer. It's been so fun. I have really only one critique so far. And it's that we didn't see the cat slash possible flurkin in episode two. You know, I grew quickly attached in episode one. I can imagine. I wanted more. You know, I'm just hoping that the merch stores start offering the mug featuring the cat

image soon because I need that, that beautiful little possibly pocket dimension carrying creature in my life. I feel like we can make this happen for you, Mallory. I hope so. You know, still holding out for Alpine, as I know you are too. I know. Bring more cats into the MCU. Bring it.

Yes, exactly. to the point about each episode feeling distinct. It's interesting, and I do wonder if, as we get a couple weeks deeper, and as you noted, there are only six total, we're pretty far in, that will start to solidify for us. And episode one being half of the consideration set right now, maybe muddles our ability to see it that way because there was so much heavy lifting to do in that first episode

to just establish the rules of this aspect of the universe, establish the rules of the show, introduce new characters, introduce new dynamics. You know, it's funny because when I saw that in your wonderful Waldron profile, I was really excited about that idea. And now I find myself not minding if that ends up not being the case. Because the thing that I have loved the most about the first two episodes, the vibes. Just love the vibes only. Vives only. Such a great hang.

I mostly agree with you. I'm just thinking like if next week, and I don't know, because as anyone listening probably knows, Marvel keeps things very, very tamped down to the lock and key. I don't know what's going to happen coming up in the episodes. I can make guesses, but I don't know. So this is not a spoiler to say what I'm hoping for next week is like Loki and the lady that he followed through the portal. Like, I want that.

And it could just be the two of them and I would be satisfied. And that would be like the one with, you know, her. And I think that would be a really fun episode. You know, I can't imagine we'll completely abandon the fine folks, the TVA while it's happening. But that's something they could do. And I think they've shown, given all the long dialogue scenes between Mobius and Loki, I think that's something that they've shown they might be willing to do. Like a walk and talk.

I said this. I think I've said this on. on my show, but like, you know, Waldron mentioned before sunrise as like one of the inspirations. And I was like, ever since he said that, I'm like, I just want Loki and Lady Loki. To go to the record store? Yeah, to just wander around somewhere and talk for an hour.

That's my would be delightful MCU content for me. I don't know if everyone agrees, but I think that could be really fun. I certainly agree. And I mentioned, actually on last week's episode when chatting with Musa, I mentioned all of the influences that you cited in your piece and that Walton had cited to you. And obviously, things like Blade Runner, some of those feel like the parallels that are more overt and easy to like instantly graft onto the episode itself. The before-centered one probably delighted me the most because that is an absolute jewel of a movie and of a trilogy that I adore. and the things that I love about it already feel so central

to the ambition of this show, which is, of course, a time travel, highly fantastical exercise, but is more than anything so far, a character study, and a study in how people evolve, how they assess their own desire to evolve, and the nature of connection.

So I already have so many responses and thoughts off of what you just say. said. Like the idea of the idea of episode three just being R-Loki and the variant, kicking it. Right. Heading into the record store to listen to a tune

thrills me. Yeah. But out of an abundance of caution, I'll throw a quick Mando season two spoiler warning here for anyone for the next 30 seconds. I would have a little bit of a

like don't take Grogu away from me reaction to it because I'm so invested already in the chemistry between Owen Wilson and Tom Middleston and Loki. Both of the first two episodes, my favorite thing about them by far, has just been the conversation between those two actors, those two characters sitting at a table talking about life. And it's actually amazing to me that they were able to replicate that and surpass it in this episode because the exchanges in the time theater in the premiere, those are some of my favorite themes and free will and destiny, the idea of determinism, the choices that we make, the consequences that

they have is like some of my favorite things to think about in fantasy stories. And the fact that that poured it over into this episode so seamlessly in a way that really built organically on itself, I'm just delighted that we're getting to not only think about these things, but see the characters actually engage with those ideas in a story like this. So the conversation between Loki and Mobius at the cafe, is it a cafe, cafeteria? I don't know. You know, the salad looked, okay. But, no, it didn't. It looks pretty garbage. And like, listen, I have questions about whether or not these people are actually humans.

But if they're human, I would like them to demand better than iceberg lettuce in the TVA cafeteria. You know what I mean? I mean, our man, our man, Mobius is just crushing the Jasta, though. The Josta, you know? Give him a crisp romaine is what I, is why I have to say about that. How about some kale? Yeah. But not everybody is, you know, a fan of the Asgardian grapes and nuts diet.

It's true. Some people want the cabloy. That's the thing is like, I mean, we're going to get into like my Mobius theories, but like I am just like, I have just thoughts about this guy who drinks a lot of cola and loves Jedskeys. Let me say this right at the top. We don't have to follow the order of the bullet points on the outline at all. We can get into anything at any point.

So if you want to get into the Mobius theory right now, we can. You want to save it for later. We can follow your heart's desire. That's what Loki would do, right? And that's what the timekeepers would tell you. you not to do, which is how you know you should do it. Yeah, yeah, chaos completely. No, it's just like that, you know, I'll ask you this question. Like, there are a few theories now of like who else Mobius might be or what might be going on with Mobius. Is he a Loki in disguise? Is he

Kang in disguise? Is a new one that has been introduced to me after I recorded this week's podcast was someone had the idea that he is being reset because of that scene in the office with Redslayer, the rings on the table just keep like sticking with me, you know? He mentions, like, he keeps like, who brought you that? And, like, who, you know, and she's like, I've got other folks. And it's like, someone was like, what if it's actually him? And he's just being reset and he doesn't remember. So is he some kind of robot struggling with consciousness?

Or maybe he's just Mobius. And that would be satisfying enough, too, because I think all that stuff is interesting. But the Jostasota, the jet skis, like this childlike, the like interest in the like grapes and nuts aren't a treat enough sort of vibe like yeah it gives him this like childlike vibe despite the fact that he's silver fox so i don't know like what do you what are you thinking about these movies questions so many thoughts i i don't know what this says about me but my first thought when he responded to the grapes and nuts uh reveal by by saying you know that that's why you're you're so unhappy that's why you're so miserable

Bitter, bitter. Made me think of Eagrit and John. That's why you're so miserable all the time. I don't know why I am associating grapes, nuts, and masturbation. But here we are. Listen, 10 minutes into the pod. I already getting there. Love it.

Love this for us. So Arjuna, one of our wonderful producers, he yesterday in our ring of her slack was pushing this idea that, and Arjuna, you can feel free to hop on and correct me if I'm a miscarriage. characterizing your dicks, but I don't know if Artuna was saying that Mobius is resetting, but that all of the agents are Mobius. Clones, which obviously there's TV and comics precedent. Right. Yeah.

Yeah. Yes. Totally. And by agents, do you mean like the Minutemen as well as the analysts? Are they all the same? I don't know if I personally subscribe to this theory, though I do find it interesting. And I actually like all of the Mobius-centric theories, because whether it's, Mobius is Loki, everyone is a Loki variant of some sort, every agent is Mobius, whatever the case may be.

I like the way that that connects to the central questions, which were very present in this episode, as Loki considered the idea of other versions of Loki, all of these variants. what does it mean to be who you are, to be an individual, compared to other versions of yourself? I think that is fascinating. Right. What an opportunity to better understand yourself that to see yourself reflected back in another version.

Products of other contexts, nature versus nurture. Obviously, that is central to Loki, not only across Loki's MCU canon to this point, but in the moment right now, with everything that Loki is learning and hearing inside of the TVA, with the Rings, I agree with you that that whole sequence felt,

everything feels deliberate, right? There's not a lot of time to waste. So I know that you're, I know that you have similar feelings about the pen. The pen is like, haunting me. You don't draw attention to something like that unless it is going to bear.

fruit in some way, right? I mean, maybe it's just a red herring and playing with our expectations that everything is going to end up being a clue that, you know, flowers into a beautifully fulfilling plot point. Obviously, we've had plenty of moments to date just in the Phase 4 Disney Plus experience where that has not wound up panning out shots to our dude Ralph Boner now and always. Oh, boy. Oh, boy.

The Boner exception. No, I mean, like the, it's actually the Boner rule, like the exception. is everything else. But like the question is like, what's when when we consider these theories, right, what is the most emotionally or narratively satisfying answer? That's the thing that I'm constantly chasing. And also something that I did say on our podcast this week in the interest of responsible theorizing is that if you're watching this and looking for what else Mobius might be or what else might be going on with Mobius, I think it would enhance your experience. If you also make sure to keep one foot planted firmly and maybe I'm just what I'm watching is what I'm watching

because that way you won't be disappointed that it wasn't this like much more complicated thing that you imagined, do you know? And you can just be like, okay, I'm watching this character, Mobius as he's reflected in Loki and Loki is reflected in him and these two entities sort of coming together. But I do think, I think his like, Mobius's faith, you know, if he's being honest, his faith in the TVA is something that I have questions about. You know what I mean? Because, like, I don't trust the TVA at all. And that, you know, and it reminds me a lot. Are you, I feel like you must be because you and I have, like, run in such similar TV and film circles. But were you an alias fan, an alias watching?

You know, I, I'm not. I just have, I never watched it. It's not that I dislike it. It just was not ever a part of my life. But there are all these characters in that show that think they're working for the CIA and find out later that they're working for a more. sinister organization. And so they're like, so there's like a shield hydra comp. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's just shield. It's like, yeah, it's like cap finding out that like all the work that he was doing for shield was actually for Nazis, you know? So it's, you know, is Mobius a sort of cap and a in a in a shield like organization? That feels like something where we're going to get a satisfactory and satisfying arc for Mobius regardless, because whether Mobius ends up learning,

that there's this reset happening, that Mobius is a clone, a variant, whatever the case may be, or just that it may as well be that way. If it is not literally true, it is true in terms of all action and consequence because of this strict adherence to the TVA's logic and mandates. You're bred to perform a role and you do it without question, but so much. of Mobius' life centers around asking questions, asking questions of other people. I feel strongly that a character who is that interested in thinking that way and in pushing others, we're seeing it with Loki, to look inward and assess, has to do that for himself, too. And the episode centered on a lot of these thematic dynamics, you know, change in constants,

chaos and order, doubt and faith. purpose and control, all of which connect to questions of identity, all of which connect to free will and destiny, which of course, episode one centered on and was present here again. All of these things are entwined. You know, why do people do the things they do? What makes them want to change? How do we assess humanity and human impulses when so many of the traditional guardrails are gone?

The entire context in which these characters find themselves is designed to ensure that they're gone, or if you want to spin it the other way, to ensure that they stay in place, right? Which gets back to your point about TVA control. And when will Mobius question his purpose and his mission? That, to me, is now one of the central questions of the show. Because while Mobius's faith and belief in the TVA and the timekeepers and the value and really necessity of order is very present and frankly quite compelling, in part because of the strength of the performance and the writing, in his conversations with Loki, and we'll go through some of them, you do get the inverse. You do get glimpses that he is already, whether he's even consciously processing it or not, experiencing doubt. And you get those in Mobius's conversations with Judge Renslayer. Yes. With Rvona. Mixed in with that crackling chemistry and flirtation. Yeah, yeah. Can we change? you know, are we allowed, you know, and then she says, no, none unless the timekeepers to create it, right? And that's, it's interesting because here's a guess.

I don't know, right? But like, if I had to guess, Loki's following, I think it's significant that Mobius, it's one of those classic things where they split people up in a murder mystery or something like that. The fact that Mobius didn't see the variant. Yes. Is interesting to me. Agreed. I have questions about that. but conveniently elsewhere in the Rocks Cart, you know, when this is happening.

Can I very quickly? Yeah. Please don't lose your thought. I'll be devastated if I cost you this thought here. But you mentioned Roxcart and I just have to ask you this. I texted you this previously. I can't stop thinking about it. Why has no toiletry packaging changed in the year 2050?

I am very, as a lover of dove body wash. Loki is standing in front of all of this dove packaging confronting the variant. We'll get to the variant soon, promise. Haven Hills, Alabama, Roxcart. Shouts to Roxcahn, by the way, for all the comics fans out there. Nothing, no update on the branding in 2050? We've got a massive hologram out front of the Rocks card. I have to think that this is the same.

I have to think this is like a production design corner cut, but it didn't bother me until you texted me about it. And then I watched the episode again. And I was like, oh, man, like the big arm and hammer sign, which is a fun thing for Loki to sort of stop in front of. But like, yeah, I was like, oh, yeah, it's all just our toiletries. How boring. Again, changing constants, though. Hey. Yeah, I guess so.

But, yeah, the constant is dove soap, I suppose. But so, yeah, so Loki follows her through the portal. And here's, here's a question. And to Arjuna's point, I'm actually hopeful that at least the Minutemen are clones of some kind. Because I would like for this variant to not be evil. I think it's less interesting if she's evil. And more interesting if she's trying to take down the TVA for a good reason. But she's killed a lot of people.

And so I'm hoping that they're not actually people. And like, tortured. physically and psychologically. I mean, Hunter C20 is in pretty rough shape. Yeah, but she says it's true, it's true, it's all true. So I feel like the variant sort of showed her something about the TVA that shook her to her core, right? And I'm hoping that this variant is going to show those things to Loki, and then it might be up to Loki to Loki to show them to Mobius, to like wake Mobius up. You know, a chain of awakenings sort of thing would be something that would be something that.

I think would be interesting and satisfying. Yeah, I definitely agree with you that we should not trust the timekeepers. We should not trust the TVA. There is no reason really other than what we just stated that, you know, it's not great to be attacking and tormenting the Minutemen. Other than that, there's no reason to believe that what the variant is doing is bad other than. everything we've heard from the TVA and the TVA is motivated to protect the timekeeper's sacred timeline. Why? Why? That's the question, isn't it?

And so, well, this is what we're going to do. We're going to go through the variant, the timekeepers in the TVA, Mobius, and Loki, and talk about how these themes, order and chaos, changing constants, purpose, intention, really manifested in this episode. Who do you want to start with? We've teased a lot of it already. Which character are you most interested in starting with here? Let's start with good old Loki himself.

What an episode for our dear little ice runt. Wow. Tough stuff. Tough stuff. That was really, really, really brutal. Though also charming, I have to say. I mean, our favorite ice runt. I mean, Olgson is incapable of saying something without charm, right?

Everything is dripping with charm. It's true. Yeah. It's true. Did you think, by the way, that, when Loki was undergoing TVA training, you know, watching the training videos, and cruelly swatting it Miss Minutes with the JetSki magazine, and then started to say, you can't hide in the,

and got cut off right before saying computer. Was that a little Owen Wilson Zoolander? The files are in the computer. That's hilarious. I hadn't thought about that. I love it. Oh. I loved what you, what you said on your podcast.

this week about seven and the library sequence. Yeah. Well, that's something that Kate Heron, the director Kate Heron had flagged. She was like, there's a seven Easter egg in episode two, and I was like, oh, I'm going to find it. And yeah, the Bach music that's playing while they're in the library is from the Morgan Freeman library sequence in seven. So I just thought that was kind of fun and interesting. And I'm like, Kate, drop, that was like a fun game.

She's like, she said there was one, but she didn't say what it was. And so I got really excited. And yeah, Kate Heron, too, like Waldron is shaped by a bunch of stuff, but Kate Heron, too. And as we know, like, Marvel Disney Plus shows the director sort of is as much of a shaper of things as the head writer. And so there is a, you know, when Rocks Card employee Randy points to his name tag, a much people pointed out that that is probably a Buffy the Vampire Slayer reference when Spike wakes up and he sees the name Randy in his jacket and he's like, call me Randy. and Kate Heron's a huge Buffy fan. And so, like, I would never second guess of Buffy reference in Loki because Kate Heron's a huge Buffy fan. So, yeah, like, that's really fun aspect, but it's not, what I love about it so far is that it's not overwhelming or swallowing or too winky.

You know what I mean? They're like, let's do seven, but let's not do some dumb, like, what's in the box thing. Let's use the Bach music that's, like, playing in the library. and that will be our homage to seven. Like, I think that's like a really beautiful sort of light touch with the sprinkling of references, you know? Yeah, I agree. And I think that, you know,

one of the reasons that the show feels so well-paced and well-balanced and simultaneously really packed and active, but also kind of, like, gentle in a way is, again, it's oriented on so many long conversations. but the characters have made what is often subtext overt text seamlessly. And yet there is this real subtlety throughout the two episodes that we've seen so far at least. And Loki has always embodied that idea. That's one of the things that's always been so fun about Loki inside of the MCU across comics,

across mythology. you would not often call Loki subtle. No, right? No. Loki is, in many ways, the antithesis of subtle, loud and bold and wanting badly to be seen and recognize and acknowledged. And that's another thing that I have loved about these episodes is the way that Loki's yearning and need for that validation is actually something that the characters are talking about

and engaging with. But Loki's arc and Loki's morality is this delicate dance. And Loki, inside of this episode, actually, is the one who voices that, that idea that nobody is ever purely good or purely evil. I mean, could there be a more fitting character to give voice to that idea inside of the MCU? Yeah, and that's, I was talking to, this is like a little preview for next week. We're still watching, but I got to have a long- Geez it.

Got to have a long chat yesterday with one me Masako who plays B-15. Nice. And she was talking about, she's talked a couple times about this idea of like the big ideas of the show, the existential ideas of the show, as sort of you raised, this idea of good versus evil. And the question she asked is like, if you have no free will, can you actually be good or evil? Right. Are you accountable for your choices? If you don't have agency. Like, you know, how does morality come into it?

That's why that's ultimately not a fulfilling reality for these stories to exist. Absolutely. That's why I rebel so fully against that idea. Like, our characters, I mean, not only because of where we are in the MCU, it's just inconceivable to me that ultimately this show will net out in a place where what Tony Stark did in end game, Tony snapping his fingers did not matter. And you can list dozens and dozens, hundreds of other examples. our character's choices have to matter because that is what allows us to invest in them.

That is what allows us to root for or against them is understanding that they're culpable. This is like a religious question, right? Because like, and there's a lot of religious language, the sacred time, like all this sort of stuff like that used in here. And it's like if the timekeepers are playing God, you know, how does morality weigh into that? And I asked her, I was like, did you have these overt conversations on set that you were going to tackle God or gods or whatever you believe in, religion, a powerful being, superior being, whatever. And she was like, yes. I was like, what a wild thing for this Loki show to have as a goal. It's like, we're going to talk about God.

Okay. Like, or whatever that means to you, you know, and non-denominational in the vein of lost. And so it's like, I don't know. And, and, you know, speaking of lost, not major spoilers, but like subjects for the final season of lost. This idea of like a god who no one has seen, right? Like, Mobius has never met the timekeepers. Ravana says she has, but we only have her word for it. You know what I mean?

We don't have to say it in terms of God if you prefer or not. You could just Wizard of Oz, man behind the curtain, all that sort of stuff. Like, what is going on here with these three figures, these three statues, the story that we've been told, but what is the truth and whose interest is being protected here, you know? Yes. And we can think even just through two episodes about how the idea of belief, faith, but also control has been presented to us. Like the premiere, the emotional and spiritual breakthrough and culmination of that episode hinges on Loki admitting not only to Mobius and to us as viewers, but most importantly of all to himself, that the illusions are a tactic the weak and he gestures to himself in that very impactful moment, needing to find a way to examine to exist. desert control, control, the desire to control, the desire to maintain order is not inside of this show something that we are supposed to think is a good thing. And so we are supposed to be

skeptical of the characters who are seeking to exact it, not only in general, but particularly when it comes to the expense of other characters. Like, my God, you mentioned lost, I have another lost thing I want to say that. I'll get to you later, I'll get back to Mobius. but this makes me, of course, think of Game of Thrones, one of our dearest shared passions, how we found each other in the first place. And of course, Littlefinger and Chaos is a ladder. I think that's really interesting, too,

because it's not an either-or. Like, I don't think that the show is saying necessarily that pure chaos is a good thing either. But the desire to prevent chaos, in order to protect somebody's end game. We can get back to how that connects to Dr. Strange and the one in 14 million. I mean, it's all entwined.

Right. But what is the distinction ultimately intention? I think that gets back to what you were saying earlier, too, about the variant and why or whether we should believe that the variant is actually the nominal villain, the quote-unquote villain of the show, bombing the timeline. When you see that screen at the end,

and the TVA erupting into panic, and the, I don't know, one piece of garlic bread suddenly becoming a messy plate of pasta. Like, however you want to describe it. That's amazing. It's like, man, that looks delicious, right? That looks fun to me. I don't know.

I don't know about you, but I don't have a sacred timeline to protect. So, no, I want to go back to something you said that's so interesting about this idea of, like, control. Because something that's been kind of bothering me, and I think you helped put it, like, lock it into place for me, which is this idea that, like, people who want, on to control people or that impulse to control is not coded as a good thing in the show.

And one thing that we've seen happen, we've seen it happen twice. In the first episode, it's when Loki was like looping B-15 using the time twister, right? And she kept like popping back in. And I was like, this is kind of shitty and cruel in a way that I'm not enjoying, like, especially like the optics of him being like a white man and her being a black woman. I was like, I just don't like this. You know what I mean? And then he did like a similar like when he was being shitty to miss minutes.

And he was just sort of like it was a similar sort of like. And there's, you know, he's God of mischief, God of chaos. Like that sort of stuff. But it like, it just, I was like, I don't like this. There's a lot of mischief I do like from Loki. I did not like these two minutes. And I was like, but that's him trying to exert control or power over something in a way that I think was coded. Like we're supposed to be, I think, a little uncomfortable with it, you know.

there are both in terms of Loki's behavior in the moment and in terms of callbacks that make you think about other points in time that we have spent with this Loki, our Loki. You know, even something like asking Mobius if he gets a weapon. Makes you think of that sequence in Dark World, you know, at least furnish me with a weapon, my daggers, something. and then later the 100 B-15 confiscating them when Mobius does. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. It's great. And those are really helpful.

And I think in many ways necessary, like mooring elements because that's part of the great conundrum for the viewer with Loki. We've seen the redemption arc once. We will, I think, now see it again in a different fashion. But again, it's not in either or as Loki voiced in this episode. We don't need to say that because Loki has done bad things, Loki is not capable of striving to be better. That's actually part of the value of introducing choice into a story that characters can express sincere remorse.

And through that, like just basically now, I feel like I'm like summarizing the end of death, Hello's through that. It's the only way you can possibly find your way back, right? But what is the other thing that we know to be true about Loki? You can't ever let yourself off the hook completely. The mischief is ingrained in Loki's nature and the desire, you know, I love the multiple moments in this episode where Loki calls something boring, you know, even just like at the beginning with Miss Minutes, reciting the videos, okay, boring, getting kind of quiet and calm and then later in this more charged an intense conversation with Mobius talking about the prospect of reality without chaos

and how boring that seemed. No, because while we protect what came before, they're toiling away in their chamber, untangling the epilogue from its infinite branches. I see. So when they're finished, what happens then? So are we. No more nexus events. Just order.

and we meet in peace at the end of time. Nice, right? Only order. No chaos. It sounds boring. I'm sure it does to you. And some of that is just this desire to be active and relevant in people's lives through causing that chaos and that disorder.

And part of it is I think Loki's genuine belief that, And that's one of the compelling things in this episode, too. And I love the way Mobius talks to Loki about and tries to leverage and manipulate the idea that it would be impossible for our Loki, this Loki, to accept that another Loki could be superior. Impossible. Right. Not something Loki can abide. And so everything stems from that, not only needing to, whether it was Thor, Odin, or Frigga, or now the timekeepers. Like, does Loki want the timekeepers in Mobius to think Loki is smart and.

great, yes. But is that the point? Not completely. Loki wants to best everybody to win, but the goal of the winning is to prove worthy in a very different way than, you know, Thor's worth manifest when we're talking about Milnear. So all of this is connected. It's circular. It's entwined, much like the Mobius strip, which I love you and you and Anthony were talking about this, right? Like, what is the key to that name and what might that reflect about Mobius' own journey or potential arc? And so there are these parallels, I think, clearly across the characters, even though they are all so different and seeking different ends, the unifying thread is, maybe this is just what I want. Sometimes I'm like, yeah, it's the thing I want actually what the show is

about. I do that, too. I do that, yeah. But I am hopeful at least now that that will be the through line for all of their arcs is rebelling against the idea that the timekeepers or anybody else can say, this is who you are and this is who you're supposed to be. Like some of the most devastating moments so far in the show are hearing these descriptions of Loki's purpose, just being there to stir shit up and make other people stand out. Like that's not, I don't want that to be true. This is actually an argument I got it I had with someone this morning.

because they were saying, like, why doesn't Loki, when he goes to 2050, why doesn't Loki ask about Thor? And wouldn't that have been like an interesting opportunity to, I don't know, tease Thor Love and Thunder or something like that? And I was like, you know, one thing about this show is, you know, and I've talked about this before, but one thing about the show is that it is doing for Loki what Ragnarok did for Thor, which is stripping him of all this like stuff that we know, the costume that we know, the daggers, all this sort of stuff. the supporting cast and just asking you to consider what makes a Loki. Like, what is Loki, right? Without Asgard, without Thor. And they were saying, like, the person I was arguing with was saying, like, you can't define Loki outside of Thor.

And I'm like, I think this, what this show presupposes is maybe you can. Maybe you can give him other relationships that we can understand him, not just as a foil for Thor, but as an entity unto himself, you know? Yeah, well, and not only that maybe we can, but that maybe we must. Yeah. You know, that that is like inherent in every person's individuality is not just how how other people define them, but how ultimately they will seek to define themselves. And, you know, like many of the lines in this episode and both episodes so far are just

these great little zingers, these pops and bursts of humor and levity, you know, Moby's saying a double cross by history's most reliable liar. Like, that was very funny. Even just like little things, you know, I'm not, I'm not taking your first stroll along the promenade, much less an apocalypse. Like, this is iconic stuff already. I just like, love it so much. And I have to wonder, like, I want to get, I definitely don't want to steal credit from anyone. I want to give proper credit. But knowing, learning as I did this last week, that Owen Wilson himself is the one who came up the line I can play the heavy keys. I'm like, how much of this is, oh, Wilson, you know, like, and Kate Haren has said that.

She's like, he's a writer. So, like, when he sort of, like, looked at the script, he looked at it as a writer. So I just have to wonder, like, how much, how many Wilsonisms are in here. Do you know what I mean? Sort of peppered through the salt and the salad, if you will. So, yeah. The salt of the salad. And then we've got to get the, the Casey Pillboy drink.

Yeah. Pour on top at some point. Yeah, the boku juice. Yep. What did you think of, while we're still on Loki for a minute here, what did you think of the other Loki variants that we got to glimpse? So not the variant, the titular variant of the episode, who we will get to soon,

but in the mission prep sequence, when Mobius is running through all of the different variants, the Hulk, Loki. Yeah, we see. a few. We see like Tour de France. Do you know what the last one was? We did actually see variant numbers of zooming in, which I thought was interesting, maybe just in terms of how many it reveals that there are in total. There's one that's like just has dark glasses on and like I almost feel like that. I mean, please, please at me on Twitter if you know what this is because I asked a bunch of people

and nobody seems to know what it is. But like he's in like a green onesie and he's got a, like dark glasses and a like long beard. And I feel like it has to be some sort of like pop culture reference that I'm not getting. Like this is Alan Moore or something like that. He kind of looks like a weird wizard. So I'm like, what is this? What am I missing here? So if you know, please please at me on Twitter at Joe wrote this so that I can set my mind at ease. I can't wait to meet more of more of the Loki variance over the course of the show. It was fun to just glimpse some of some of them here and paired with Mobius's narration and the rundown, you know, no tour alike, slight differences in appearance or not so slight, different powers,

although powers generally include shape-shifting illusion projection and my favorite. And then here, Professor Loki cuts in with a rundown of the distinctions between the power sets right before we got the My Favorite reveal, which was, again, felt quite deliberate there. That felt like specifically set up for the reveal. at the end of the episode with the variant, which we'll get to very, very soon here. Yeah. For Loki, I wanted to ask you about a potential,

a couple of items of potential foreshadowing. When they go to Wisconsin, to the 85 Renaissance Fair sequence to, just again, marvelous, marvelous start to finish. Just to completely not blend in. I said this on my podcast, but I really wish the TVA went undercover and they had a huge costume closet.

And we got to see, like, all of them in like wench gear instead of their riot gear. That would have been a good time for me. Like dress for the melee. That would have been wonderful. Yeah. Yes. Yes. He says he wants me and the key to his plan.

He knows that I'm stronger than him and he rightly believes that together we can overthrow and rule the TVA. And that's not what I want. I have a new purpose. I'm a servant of the sacred timeline. Now obviously in the moment, this is a ruse. But Loki does actually make a somewhat similar picture. pitch to the variant at the end.

Let's work together. I need a lieutenant and overthrow the TVA. So do you think that that appeal to the variant in the rocks cart was just one more manipulation, classic Loki, Loki being Loki, expect the expected as we hear in this episode. Yeah. Or do you think that is actually foreshadowing what is to calm now that they have escaped? Now, the variant replies that not interested in overthrowing the TVA. That's not the design.

But even though we have learned over the course of the episode that a lot of what we thought was true is not true, are they ultimately going to work together in the way that Loki has stated he intends and desires, even though those statements are wrapped in fallacies designed to dupe the people that he's talking to? Well, I think, you know, Loki, you know, consistently sort of like falling back on his instincts, which is I need to rule. And in ruling, I will have worth and whatever that is, you know, because that's what my adopted father did, et cetera. But like, put so much of this on Odin. I got to say. Bad dad, Odin, big time. But, um, fucking all, father.

But I think that, like, his, let's say he does want to rule the TVA. my guess would be that like whatever the variant has to say about the TVA like my guess is the variant is like I don't want to rule it I want to destroy it you know what I mean like I don't want to be God I want to destroy God sort of thing like because chaos right his dark materials vibes here hardcore let's yeah let's kill God um so and so I I feel like I can see Loki being convinced that ultimately that is the better thing to do, both for his desire for chaos and free will to exist in the universe, and because when we love Loki the most is when his better nature wins out over his desire for power, right? That gets to my next question, which I'm not actually

sure how to state in a totally coherent fashion, but I'll attempt to. I believe in you. Well, I appreciate it. Is Loki going to really believe that he cannot be restored, that he cannot go back, that ultimately he will be pruned or stuck or relegated to some other type of existence? And thus, much like stands and shouts and sings in the streets, nothing matters in Pompeii, nothing has any consequence. Dance while you still can. Is that there to prime us for Loki's behavior? Dance while you still can. Or will Loki reject all of that?

Is that actually the point? My thought is like this feels like a little bit of an Infinity War cheat, and I think that's too bad because one thing I didn't want them to do is actually undo Loki's death in Infinity War because it's so powerful. I hope he gets to repeat the You Will Never Be a God. Well, some deaths that I'm like fine with doing and some deaths I'm not. But like that one I was like, he's so meaningful. I don't want to take that from it.

And in many ways, that Loki's dead. Whatever Loki this is is not that Loki, right? But like, is there a way? Yeah, he can't go back to where previous timeline territory. But could he like zip like blip back after his death in Infinity War and come back and fulfill his promise to Thor that the sun will shine on them again sort of thing? Do you know what I mean? Like that, that I feel like is an ultimate potential goal.

But I do think that they're trying to separate Chris and Tom. This is like some meta Marvel gaming. But like I was listening to this interview that Tyke, YTT gave about Thor Ragnarok and how a big goal for him in Thor Ragnarok was to constantly bring Loki low. Because there were many ways in which Tom had overshadowed Chris in his own franchise. That's something that I think about a lot. Thus, get help. Yeah, yeah. And like...

The get help sequences. Yeah. And so like this idea of like letting Chris shine, letting Chris be the star of his own movie versus Tom kind of stealing the show. And I wonder if this is almost just like an amicable divorce for them of like, we don't want to lose Loki because we love Loki. But Chris Hemsworth came to us and said, I'm enormously dissatisfied with who Thor is as a character, which is something Chris Hemsworth said to me that he told Kevin Figekeye felt like he was suffocating, right?

And so like, let's give Chris what he needs, which is this. Shouts to my dark world heads. Let's give Chris what he needs and give Tom his own thing and never maybe the Twain shall meet. I don't know. I don't think I really answered your question. I just said those things. But I don't know.

What do you think? That's part of the beauty of the journey here. We don't know the answers yet. We're just asking the questions. I think ultimately Loki has clearly team free will matters and these space lizards. do not get to determine my fate and have not had any hand in the choices I've made so far. But I wondered during this episode of some of the thematic implication would manifest in maybe him going rogue in that fashion for just a bit before winding his way back to, no, I reject that.

That's not an acceptable outcome. And there's no reason that it has to be the outcome other than the fact that these timekeepers are telling us. And they're telling us that because they're protecting or seeking to avoid a given. an outcome, whatever they're won in 14 million, maybe, right? So it was nice, I will say, to hear Loki mentioned Thor briefly in this episode when he went in the, in the racks card sequence. This is why I see why Thor found this so annoying. Whatever, that was great stuff. Yeah, I think Thor should be in this show. I don't think Thor should not be mentioned in this show.

I just think it should be a light touch. I think the way that they used Steve and Falcon the Winter Soldier was just a little funky to me because they were constantly talking about Steve, Well, at the same time, we don't know where Steve is. And that drove me bananas because I asked, sorry, I don't mean to like, I hope it doesn't sound like name dropy if I talk about like people that I talk to. But like, flex. No, I'm not trying to flex. I just want to cite my sources.

And like, someone accused me of name dropping. I love it and supportive. I'm just trying to cite my sources, which is like, I asked Sebastian Stan, I was like, does Bucky know where Steve is? And he's like, I don't know, Joey. And I was like, that's a deeply unsatisfactory answer to me, that like the actors themselves don't even know where Steve is, but they're talking about him all the time in Falcon Winter Soldier. Like, is he dead? Is he on Mars? Where is he? What's happening? So anyway, I, the way in which that show was sort of really stuck around the idea of Steve, understandably so. I don't want Loki to be stuck around the idea of Thor, which it hasn't been. I'm just saying I don't want it to be, you know. I think that's astute. And I think it's one of the things that ultimately positions this show to be so satisfying. on the whole, but also, despite the comp you just made,

could be really great across the Disney Plus experience in general, that we have this chance to kind of, like, do it all, but also separate these stories. The Loki, the whole idea for the show is just so brilliant to me because they don't, they still don't have to unwind Infinity War. And I'm with you on wanting to preserve that. But we can still get this time with a character who we are so deeply invested in and connected to. What room that allows for other characters to ultimately emerge and carve out like similar places in our hearts I think remains to be seen.

But I do think also like a lot of that roadmap building for future installments has been really successful. You know, the Young Avengers stuff is constant at this point, including in this show now. And, you know, it makes thinking about a character like Mobius or a character like Judge Renslayer, particularly interesting, I think. Like, are we only going to be with these people for a few hours? Or are they going to be present in our Marvel experience moving forward? I was going to raise that exact question in terms of, like, we know that they've greenlighted a Loki season two in the way that they haven't greenlit

any of the other shows for a season two. And so we don't know what that looks like or what that even means. Can't turn off the Loki tap. That's the thing. Is that even Tom Hildesden's Loki? You know what I mean? Like, it could be this variant that we meet.

Like, maybe it's centered on her, you know? Like, we don't, that's the beauty of Loki. A friend of mine, our mutual friend, Dave Gonzalez, keeps telling, like, hammering home to me that Loki is plural of Loki. and like that's what he feels like the show title is or whatever like the low keys um the loki but um but yeah but so does the tv so so like if you think about like if you told me there was no loki season two i would say this show is going to end with the tearing down of the tv a but if you tell me there's a season two i don't know like what is that i'm we're way off the track now but even that though

no go go go go down your nexus event here because the Even that, though, season two presumably comes well after these other Marvel installments that we know we're going to... The multiverse and all this or stuff. That's another question I want to ask you that I forgot to bring up on my show, so I'll use the excuse of being on your show to bring it up, which is something that I had in my notes and then a couple listeners wrote in about this is this idea of like, do we think the TVA is housed inside the quantum realm? because of what we know about how time works in the quantum realm. And the time works definitely here. Time works differently here. And the fact that like...

Which, by the way, they included in the previously on, on this week, that line to draw our attention to it again. I asked one Mimusaku how old her character was. And she said, let's say timeless. And I was like, okay. You know, so yeah, is this all happening inside the quantum realm? I do not know the answer. that question, fascinating to think about. I do like the idea, specifically because of the parallelism with that language.

I'm very hung up on Mobius's nightmare. That's another department comment from episode one and the dream dimension and how we connect that to what we learned in the first Dr. Strange film and how we think more broadly about what the multiverse inside of the MCU is. We're talking about different dimensions, you know, the astral dimension. the dark dimension, comic readers are, of course, trained to think about multiple Earths, right? Multiple universes, multiple versions of that planet. And then this entire experience here hinges around timelines and variants that spring from timelines.

So all of this is a part of the MCU multiverse experience. Here's what that made me think of. Okay. Loki has that comment in the Pompeii's sequence. about the TVA and the future. Futurey? It's pretty futury. Futuring?

Yes. We are from the future, right? What is the TVA? I mean, it's from the future. It sounds from the future. It's pretty futurey. We have been trained quickly to believe that time works differently in the TVA and the TVA exists in some way outside of time.

That question from Loki, which he repeated basically three or four times in sequence, clearly something you're supposed to pay attention to and think about. we have since the the wonderful experience with the Miss Minutes training video on the sacred timeline, the TVA long ago. Long ago.

Exactly. We think that the TVA sprung up in response to something, the multiversal war that happened long ago and is trying to maintain this timeline and prevent something like that from happening again. What if this? What if what is about to happen is the long ago event? I can agree with you.

And the thing that the TVA actually sprung up to respond to. I completely think that or like either this or whatever is the multiverse of madness and Dr. Strange. Like that idea of long ago, but what does long ago mean, which this will presumably feed into, right, the Dr. Strange. because again, the word madness in the video. Right. And something that Waldron said to me is like, oh, it's all fun in games creating a time travel mess in Loki, except then you have to go untangle it when you become the writer for Dr. Strange, right? So that's going to feed right into it.

And the reason I raise the quantum realm is that he also told me that he was a constant contact with Jeff Loveness, who was writing Ant Man 3 Quantum Mania. So that makes me think maybe the answer is yes, then, to your question about the quantum realm. I mean, maybe. But I'm totally with you on this idea of like what that. heck does long ago mean to an institution that exists out of time? And I just, I don't think we were looking at the past there. I think we're looking at the future. And I think that's a reason why they went to 2050 in this episode. Like they're not just going to the past, right? They like, they go to our future. So that's just to reinforce for us. And our near future. Yeah, this, that's to reinforce to

us that this is an agency where our future is already their past. So yeah, Ms. Min is going long ago. I'm like, what does that mean, lady, when this is a institution out of time? You can't trick us, Miss Minutes, and neither can you, timekeepers and possibly can. I mean, they probably can. Probably. I've been down. Probably can. Let's invoke our Lord and Savior, Ralph Boner again and just say I've been down many, many a false start on this journey. It's fine. It's so fun. It's so fun to talk about this stuff. I love it. All right. I wanted to ask you this about Mobius. to return to something we were discussing earlier, and Mobius' potential path to questioning authority

and breaking away from these strictures of the TVA, you know, much like my darling Asoka broke away from the Jedi Order. Someone say, no, it will not be this way. Last week on the episode with Muso, we talked a lot about choice and destiny and that dynamic. I mentioned David Hume and the compatibilistic theory of determinism.

Now, I assume that you, like me, cannot say the words David Hume aloud without thinking of Desmond and lost. Correct. And the character was, of course, named for Desmond David Hume. Devin, David Hume. I couldn't stop thinking last night about. about one of my favorite loss sequences. The Desmond, do we have to say lost spoilers? I don't even know.

Lost was on a long time ago. The, listen to Joanna's Lost podcast, by the way, if you're not. Listen to Mallory's episode of my podcast. Oh. Soyer. Lost. What a show. Now I'm getting distracted.

I love it. It was just like a respectful moment of silence for Sawyer. Amazing. Great stuff, Mal. Oh, God. But I couldn't stop thinking about the Desmond Hatch, make your own kind of music sequence. Because a character whose namesake and plot makes you think about

literally and metaphorically being trapped and feeling like you have no way out. What is the soundtrack of Desmond's lost arc? Nobody can tell you there's only one song worth singing, right? And so I'm thinking about that. Mobius and when he will have that moment of clarity because he is so savvy when he is assessing Loki, you know, knowing to leverage an audience with the timekeepers, knowing that Loki is lying out in the field, knowing that Loki needs that affirmation, you know, you had me for a second, my ears are sharp too, really sees Loki clearly. When will he start to see himself and the TVA

more clearly, too? You know, my favorite exchange in the episode, the breakroom sequence. They're taking a little break from going through all the files, and they have that amazing exchange about creation, existence of free will and Mobius, you know,

goes all, Dumbledore and Kings Cross on us, right? Right. If you think too hard about where any of us came from, who we truly are, it sounds kind of ridiculous. Existence is chaos.

Nothing makes any sense. So we try to make some sense of it. And I'm, this is the Kings Cross part, and I'm just lucky that the chaos I emerged into gave me all this, my own glorious purpose, parroting Loki's own words back to him,

notable in terms of the mismobious Loki theory of yours, certainly, because the TVA is my life. And it's real because I believe it's real. Now, I could not help but think of my favorite line, my favorite HP line, which is, of course, it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real? And I've always loved that line so much

because of what it says to me about the beauty of stories and the way that we can fall into these fictional worlds so fully and so holy, to hear Mobius talk about that, how he finds belief and purpose and meaning, but then to see inside the same episode, the inverse of that conviction, which is something that manifests in his sequences with Ravona. First of all, he's like, I want that roller skate, right?

He is drawn toward these elements of humanity and a human existence, the Jeski sequence was like so sad actually when Loki asked him if he's ever gotten to be on one. And he is spending his life working to protect these things that he does not have access to and does not get to enjoy. And she says, you know, I know you have a soft spot for broken things. And he says, I don't think so. And how much of that is about other people and how much of that is about other people and how much of that is ultimately about himself. The way that he starts to question the timekeepers.

I mean, that's a great question to me. And reveals he has not seen them. Yeah. And clearly resents that, right? Or, like, it's these questions that start poking through. When he's asking questions of, like, where did you get that? You have another analyst on the side, like, all this sort of stuff like that. It sees, yeah, it's like.

I love that so much. It's these, like, sort of emerging. Is Mobius the sidepiece or is Kang the side piece? Who's the main? It's these, like, emergent. from the fog sort of thing. And it reminds me a lot of, reminds me a lot of Westworld. If you're talking about like loops and people in loops and stuff like that in emerging consciousness,

like thinking about things waking up and asking questions, that's definitely something, a comp to steal your language that I would make is, you know, is Moby is questioning the nature of his reality or is he going to start questioning the nature of his reality? Well, and the how does it all end? That's work in progress. exchange like you could feel in the moment that Mobius knew that wasn't a satisfying thing to say. And then even, and this will segue us into talking about the timekeepers and why we shouldn't trust them, it'll shock you to hear we're running along. So I'll try to move forward. That made me think,

that exchange, Loki saying that that all sounded so boring and Mobius talking about, you know, untangling the epilogue and then we all pack it up, we go home and we live in peace. strong Thanos energy. Strong Thanos energy. And whether it is Thanos or shield or ego or any number of other characters or bodies, again, the MCU has trained us to mistrust with very few though notable exceptions,

characters who seek to exert that level of dominance over other people and human affairs. I guess we can note a couple of those exceptions. I certainly do find myself thinking of not only the Tony Dr. Strange $114 million scenario, though I think that the distinctions there are pretty clear. But it makes me think actually of our guy, our guy, Steve Rogers, and the entire Sokovia Accords Rift. And Steve saying, you know, the safest hands are still our own

and the way that Rody and other characters were kind of like appalled by what they viewed as a disturbing and dangerous notion. Why is that okay for Steve Rogers? because he is one of the few characters who has actually proven that that can be true. And as is, you know, I say this a lot, but like it is, it often comes down too. Intention, right? And we have no reason, none currently. And many points in the opposite direction to believe that the timekeeper's intentions are noble.

If you told me Steve Rogers created the TVA, I'd be like, okay. Team TVA. And maybe literally nobody else. Like, definitely not Tony. That's why he's allowed to live in his own timeline without being pruned because he created the TGA. Well, and I mean, that's why the Socovia Court's question is so complicated is there's no right answer to that, right? Because the answer is I would trust Steve, like, in his hands and his judgment. But basically no one else.

And that includes some of our top guys because, like, Tony, I wouldn't trust. He's often motivated by self-interest. Thor is basically like a, you know, a labradoodle. Like, I'm not going to trust him to run something like that. You know what I mean? I trust Natasha to do it sort of like in concert with Steve. And that's, you know, kind of what we see. But like, yeah.

And I don't trust the TVA at all. And it's coded so much so that we're not supposed to in terms of like the propaganda on the walls. And all that sort of. Highly fascist iconography. Yeah. And even the way they speak. Like think of their slogan for all time. Always.

You get chilled on your spine, a shivered on your spine when you hear that and the way that they interact, like the inherent morality or immorality of what they're doing by pruning timelines and disintegrating people who are alive and have agency and could be going off to live their own reality. Obviously, distressing. But then you see the way they interact with people and the way that like I, it's again, it's how one of the ways that in which Mobius has stood out in contrast to his fellows. Like, just love the moment in Pompeii. when Moby's tells Loki that it's in poor taste to behave the way he's behaving. Bird noise. Bird noise is only, bud. Bird noise is only. Right. You know, like show some fucking decency. These people are about to die.

And then contrast that to the way the minute men are behaving at Rocks Cart in Alabama, where they're showing no grace and no just baseline human compassion. for these people who are suffering through something horrific. And when Mobius challenges one of the hunters, the hunter says, you know, they should be scared. And Mobius says not of us. And you think about maybe how rare that empathy is inside of the TVA, and it's horrifying.

Well, that's his soft spot for broken things. Like, perhaps by broken things, she just means humanity, which no argument for me, Judge Renzlayer. But like... Broken things. It's another thing that makes me think of Game of Thrones instantly. Bastards and broken things. But like it's, well, the other question, and we've brought up this question of clones and stuff like that,

but like something that my colleague Anthony Bresden raised to me that I thought was so interesting as we were talking about that machine, or maybe it was Richard who said this. One of them said, I was asking, like, one of our listeners wrote it and asked, do you think new vision could pass the test of having a soul through that like metal detector? moment that they have, which is just like a fun thought prompt. But like, I think it was Richard who was like, the real question is, why do they have that? Why do they have that? Right. Why do they have that? And like, are, like, what are they testing for? That's a fascinating question to me. It really is. And, you know, again, especially in light of the, the, the Blade Runner influences

the Waldron as discussed. Is it just, is it just an excuse to make a Blade Runner joke or reference? Or is you know, is that going to come back? It's feeling like a real through line, again, in terms of not just inside of Loki, but across phase four, like, what is the nature of humanity? I'm glad you mentioned vision because it is obviously not the same, but Loki learning about and thinking about the idea of other Loki variants. Yeah. Did make me think a little bit of the ship of Theseus conversation.

Yeah. between the visions and Wanda Vision. And what really makes you who you are? And when you strip away certain pieces of that and replace them with other pieces, at what point do you cease to become yourself and what point do you become something else? And it's like the question of the essence of identity and humanity.

I just think, I don't know, I just think it's so cool that we're getting to talk about this stuff. I'm just really happy that we have this show. I know. And like, and that's something that's why we'll talk. was his pitch is he was like, what if this is the greatest show that ever existed, right? Like, what if we get to just really dig into these really chewy questions about religion and existentialism and determinism and also like identity and like the idea of if I met a Joanna variant

and had to sit there and like hang with this person and find out how we are similar and how we are different? Like what better way to get to know myself? Oh, a shudder. A shudder to think. But like, you know what I mean? That's that's a real opportunity. And that's a real opportunity. And that's real opportunity that we see here. If this variant is indeed what we are told it is, which is Loki variant, then what might she tell Loki about himself, you know? Okay, so let's talk about the variant, and we're also going to get into Theory Corner here all at once. And I will issue, in addition to the blanket spoiler warning at the top of the episode, a more precise spoiler warning here. We are going to talk about the episode itself and what happened with the variant

at the end of the episode. We are also going to talk about a reveal in the credit on Disney Plus, okay? So I think this is something that is fair game to discuss. And something that has additionally come to light for me, since I found out that thing, is a, someone sent me a screen grab of a zoom in of one of the pieces of paper that Loki was looking at in the folder, and that is on the paper as well. So that feels like even more fair game to talk about if it's in the episode proper. We're going to spend the next handful of minutes on this. If you don't want to hear it, skip ahead. Again, we do not know anything. We are only considering evidence that has actually been presented on Disney Plus in some fashion. But if you want to avoid the speculation that could

potentially spoil a twist to come. You've been warned. Okay, Joanna, let's talk about Sylvie enchantress and whether this is maybe not Lady Loki after all. You wrote a great piece about this on Wednesday. Let's talk about it. Where do we even begin? Some quick history on Lady Loki, some quick history on Sylvie. The tweets where this was discovered, I don't even know where to begin here. I mean, shout out to the person who watched all the way through, because there usually is some info in the closing credits, and I at least scrutinize, like, that, that full cast page that we get after every episode on Disney Plus. That's always useful to look at. But shout out to the person who stayed all the way through every single, because they always list, like, the voiceover actors

in different markets, right? And so in, and in most, in most, in most, in most, in most, in most, in most, is accurate, right? And most, all but one, that character that is played by Sophia de Martino at the end of the episode is listed as the variant. The variant, right. Not Lady Lerogie. Yes. The variant.

But in, it was like a Castilian mark, that character is listed as Sylvie, which is the name of a comic book, well, there is a comic book character named Sylvie, aka the Enchantress, who was created. by Loki as an agent of chaos. And it is a woman with blonde short hair in similar fashion to what Sophia DiMartino is wearing there. However, I will add this new information that I just found out about a couple hours ago,

which is someone sent me a screen grab of one of the documents that Loki's looking at. And it says, Sylvie Luffy's daughter. So like in the Norse naming thing, right, there are paternal names and maternal names and you could be name for your mother, name for your father, Laofusanne, Odinson, this is all like the paternal naming, right?

So I talked about this in episode one, but I just thought it was a little dicey win-renslayer called Loki Laofy son, because he tends to claim Odinson instead, and it just felt like a, it felt very my adopted daughter, Margot Taninbaum of her to say that, right? But so Laofi's daughter is D-O-T-I-R is

how it's done. And so that would imply that she is Luffy's daughter, which would imply that she is more of a Loki and less of a Loki's daughter, because it would be like Sylvie Loki Loki's daughter if she were Loki's daughter or if she were Loki's creation or something like that. Do you know? So that's a new new information for the theory pile. So again, does that have to be the same variant? No. Necessarily. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I think we should keep our minds open. And what's funny is that, like, people have been predicting Lady Loki foreversville. Like, you know, there's this figure in the trailer that a lot of people thought was Natasha

because it looks like her from the back. But a bunch of people were like, no, that is, that's Lady Loki. It's going to be played by Sophia DiMartino. She's going to be like the female lead in the series, all this sort of stuff like that. So when she shows up, a bunch of sort of like, yep, there she is, Lady Loki. And wouldn't it be just like another twist of the knife if, like, Like, that's not actually who she was at all. Right.

She's someone else. We were having an interesting chat in the ring of her slack. And Jomey posed what I thought was a very interesting question, which was, in essence, doesn't matter. Because Loki and Sylvie's version of the entranches, enchantress. Enchantress. She has enchanted you so that you can't say her name properly. There are, we should note that there are two characters in Marvel Comics canon who carry that moniker, Amora, aka the enchantress goddess, and then Sylvie, the Oklahomaan who Loki creates and powers up another Young Avengers connection here, we should note. But because Sylvie is directly connected to Loki, it stands to reason that even if this is in fact the enchantress, we will still be getting to another Loki variant through this plot line.

Right? Totally. I mean, like, I'm dead convinced that Richard E. Grant is playing a Loki variant. Like, you know what I mean? Got to be King Loki, right? Well, well, I guess it doesn't have to be, but maybe King Loki, and we're going to get Kid Loki. We're going to get the Loki variant. So Lady Loki is going to be in this show.

Right. So I think she probably is Lady Loki. They're just calling her Sylvie because that's like, that sounds better than Lady Loki, which sounds a little like. Well, that's the other thing. I'm glad you said that. Like, it doesn't have to be exactly one-to-one with the comics canon. In fact, it rarely is.

It happens all the time that they were like, let's do Lady Loki, but let's call her Sylvie and we'll just import some of the enchantresses stuff over. Because she's doing enchantments, right? Which is not quite what Loki does. He points that out. Like, this is not what he does. Her magic is a little different. And as you said, earlier in the episode,

when Mobius is giving us, like, the download of Loki variants, they prepped us for this. They prepped us for Lockees that look different. They prep us for lokies whose magic works differently. So she might have some of the enchantresses aspect. She might have the name, but it is essentially a Lady Loki. And we should say that, like, she looks nothing like Lady. Lady Loki does in the comics

and a reason why Lady Loki looks as she does in the comment she has long, dark hair, all this sort of stuff, is that the reason Lady Loki exists in the comics is after Ragnarok. Loki stole a body that was meant for Lady Siff. Yeah, and so she's supposed to look like

Siff. Yeah, and so this woman does not look like Siff. It's interesting that she's American. I find that very fascinating. The actress is British. I find it really interesting that she's playing an American. blonde American Loki, blonde American female Loki. Well, again, that would support the Sylvie, Oklahoma of it all from the period of the canon

where Asgard is floating above Oklahoma. Great stuff. There were numerous fascinating lines and clues that you could use to support either argument that this is the enchantress or this is Lady Loki. Like, just the exchange between Loki and the variant was loaded. So you're the fool the TVA brought in to hunt me down. Me, I presume, please, if anyone's anyone, you're me. So like on the one hand, why lie about that?

Though again, because of the connections between Sylvia and Loki, maybe that actually all fits no matter what. Also, after our Loki pitches the plan to join forces and try to overthrow the TVA, says, what say you, Loki? And the response is, ugh, don't call me that. which is very notable, right? Totally, totally.

hysterically, you can call me Randy. Great Stuff, as you already noted. When the variant is mocking Loki, physically attacking Loki, not the best showing from Loki in these fights, by the way. I'll note, what does Loki say here? He doesn't have his daggers. But he does have his magic back. He dried off with the quickness, you know?

Rusty, I guess, maybe. Just out of out of it. And, you know, we should, I guess, cut him some slacky is coming off of the 2012 New York sequence where the Hulk pulverized him into the floor of Stark Tower. Yes. But what does Loki say here? I would never treat me like this. Is that a clue?

There are so many lines. If you had any honor, you'd fight me as yourself. I have shit to do. It's so good. It's so good. And then the biggest clue of all, this isn't about you. This isn't about you. Did that make you think of Jacob and Ben and lost?

What about you? Of course. What about you. What a line. Oh my God. What a brutal moment. Yeah. This isn't about you.

What duh. Yeah. Like literally it's not about you. And what a thing to say to a Loki in a show called Loki. I mean, it's just, it's a great moment. A great intro for that character. Whoever she may be. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So. And you noted the magic, too. I mean, he says, enchantment is a clever trick, cowardly, a bit amateurish, but clever.

Specifically, you know, invoking the word enchantment there again feels intentional. Yes, exactly. One more theory that I want to ask you about. The bombing of the timeline. Vormir, Asgard,

Sikar, Ego, Titan, Zandar. We also see Rome, New York, etc. What does it mean, Joanna? Well, I mean, I think a big part of it is that this isn't just, it's a great moment because this has been such an earth-based journey so far, right? They're hopping through time on Earth.

And it's like that seems to be a real limit on. And everyone who works at the TVA looks humanoid. Do they only look humanoid because we're seeing them through Loki's eyes? Like, what does it look like if you're, you know, if you're not a human and you go to the TVA? What is this scroll scene? That when we meet the timekeepers? Yeah. I have a lot of questions.

Yeah, I have a lot of questions about that. So I think it's a good way to sort of make this feel bigger than it has so far. In terms of Vormir, like, that's the shot in the trailer that everyone thought was Black Widow. Is this female figure sitting at what looks really, really looks like Vormir. And what actually might even look like an apocalyptic event in Vormir, like, Vormir, like, Vormir, you know, being bombed. So it gets back to that larger question of how the TV. relates to time because we can see that the years are all over the map

what we would consider the past, the future, the present, et cetera. And will they be journeying through those events together now? I mean, they could. I just don't. And maybe that's like a real back to the future to opportunity or whatever for Marty McFly to loop back on the enchantment

under the sea dance. And I, have you heard the story that Kevin Feigy missed his prom because he was in line to see back to the future? I love it. This is a story. that someone told me.

I love it. I love it. So like Fygi, that is Fygi's like full thing, right? Is like those blockbusters of the 80s and 90s. That is like, that's what, that's his vibe. 70s, 80s, early 90s. And so like an opportunity to give us a back to the future too, that's my best comp. I'm sure there's a million other great comps, but like to loop back over something we've already seen.

I'm an Avengers End game. That's what Avengers End game is, right? you know, at the Battle of New York sort of stuff. All the time, nice. It's always fun. It's always fun, right? But I also don't know how much the show is going to want to stick itself to the movies. Because I feel like they've been trying to, like, be their own thing in a way.

Yeah, I mean, putting the Infinity Stones in the drawer to quite literally put all that away. I mean, what would the bombing of ego even mean to you? Like, what would that mean? I mean, it gets back to the question that you asked earlier. which will surely be one of the central questions of this season, what does the variant want and why? And we know from what Hunter C20 says that the variant knows where the timekeepers are and how to find them.

We know from the variance statement to Loki that taking over the TVA is not of interest. So what is? Is it to eliminate this sacred timeline, which was just bought? So presumably, yes, in order to bring about another specific outcome, or is it to remove these barriers and these confinements so that the multiverse and all of its glorious purpose and glorious madness can unfold? At what point will the confrontation with the timekeepers actually take place? Can that possibly be next? I mean, logically, I think, no, that would be too soon, though I didn't think that we would meet Lady Loki slash potentially the enchantress that soon either. So things are happening quickly.

They are. Yeah. I think any sort of like, I think first we need to learn some hard truce about the TVA and see what that does to our Palmyos, whoever he may be. And then we got to go kill God or whatever it is we decide to do. That's what I think the order of events. But who has the subtle knife? It's a good question.

It's a good question. Is it Lady Siff? I don't know. But yeah, I am, I mean, I don't know. Like, is it wild to imagine that Jonathan Majors shows up as Kang in the finale of Loki? Wilder things have happened, do you know? So he's saying that's not going to happen, right? But, of course, that's what he would say.

I think he said, I think what he literally said was like, I don't know what you're talking about. Right. Which is a classic, good old jam. He's been media trained. He knows what he's doing. So it's a... On the one hand, introducing Kang... in the Disney Plus TV realm would surprise me a little bit based on how the first couple

shows have gone specifically when it comes to like that aspect of, are we about to meet the X-Men, right? Or meet mutants. But I don't know. There are just so many connections with Kang and Ravona's comics history with the many, many, clues and indicators we have that Kang is one of the timekeepers, the comics history with Kang Mortis battling the timekeepers. Kang seeking to become the master of time,

like the quantum man connection for the next Ant Man movie, all of it. It's just whether we actually see Kang in a scene in this show, I don't know. But the... I'm of two minds about it. It's the on-ramp for sure. Yeah, I'm of two minds about it.

I'm not, I'm not going to, I'm not going to boner myself again. I'm not saying it's going to happen. I'm just saying it could. I wouldn't, I wouldn't. I wouldn't pop my monocle if it did happen, but I'm also not like, you know, pinning my hopes on it. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable Internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. It keep companies of all sizes connected with Internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support.

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Order now at order. Sweetgreen.com. Joining us now. It's the Lord of the memes, Jomi Adoneron. Jomi. The Melbag, as I like to call it, it's looking great. As per usual, thank you to everybody for submitting

your questions. The first one comes from Sergi-Wurgy. There's more to Ravona, right? I think we could say yes. There's more to Ravona. Yeah. Gugu and Bataura gave an interview where she said something about like betrayal. There's betrayal coming at the TVA. And I'm like, girl, I don't trust you. No. Yeah, I'm worried for Mobius. I feel like he's going to have his heartbroken. Not even romantically. Just like, you know, he's like, she's like as your friend, all this sort of stuff like that, right? They've got this like, he thinks they have this sort of trust bond. And understanding. I'm worried for him. Yeah. Yes, everything he believes in will come tumbling down around him. Hopefully he can be the one who helps to tumble down. That would be nice. So far, I am viewing everything that Judge Renslayer says with great skepticism. Like, the performance is so great. And the line readings, the intonation, what words are emphasized, feel so particular. Of course, part of the purpose of those exchanges is to draw our attention to the, the fact that Mobius has never met the timekeepers, but also, should we believe that

Rvona's relationship with the timekeepers is what is being shared? Like maybe Ravona is another one of the characters who has just bought in to the fiction, or maybe Ravona is entwined in that fiction. Certainly, I think if Kang is coming sooner rather than later, that's believable given the comics history between those two characters and all of these comments about the other agent and this other, you know, figure in Judge Renslayer's life. Where did that pen come from? Where did that pen come from? No, it's interesting to me that it reminds, once again, to spoil, I don't know, it's like

season five of loss, maybe, or season six. One of them where it's like, we find out that Ben Linus, who's been like sort of calling the shots for a long time for a faction on the island, says he's been taking dictation from the island god Jacob, but we find out later that he's never met Jacob. So Irvana is like claiming to have audience with the timekeepers, but does she actually? Right. Yes. And the entire like man or person behind the curtain idea and sitting in this office with these looming statues and figures and all of that imagery everywhere and the keepsakes too, and maybe also not knowing what's true is pretty fascinating to think about.

But again, there's also the possibility that she knows and is helping to exert that control. Yeah, and that's the iconography of her control. Like, in theory, like, let's say she knows, like, the fact that she sits on the bench and in her office with these looming figures behind her in both cases, just sort of like, I'm acting on the behest of these celestial figures. I shouldn't use the words celestial. These, you know. Yeah, personally, I think she's an op. You know, like she got the prune tool and then disappeared. Do we see her again?

Where'd she go? You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Everyone's out in the field, man. I don't trust her one bit. I don't trust her one bit. No one's bowling down there assigned lane anymore. We got duck pin bowling and regular bowling happening all at once.

And it's not just that every, there are many lanes active. instead of just the one and everyone took the gutter. You're like, wear the bumpers. No more bumpers and everyone's just throwing their bowling balls wherever they damn well, please. They're hitting the beer towers. All hands on deck, Jomey. Like the Nick Fury line in Avengers. I need everybody not looking for Lady Loki or Sylvie, you know, doing search and rescue, you know, type deal.

Yeah. And I mean, that's the thing is like, we didn't talk about this in the proper episode, but like if, if Sylvie bombing the time, timeline is really just a diversion so that she can do what she actually wants to do, which is maybe attack the timekeepers or something like that. So it's like all hands, draw all their attention. All hands on these bombs I've set off so that I can actually do what I want to do. Genius move.

4D hyperdimensional chess. All right. What's next? Next question from Dance Like Mills. How do you think Lady Loki came to know that hiding in the apocalypse hides her temporal aura. It seems like 2012 Loki and Mobius went through a lot of paperwork to stumble upon that idea.

See if possibly worked for the TVA at one point? So, fascinating question. I will just say that 2012 Loki did not have to go through really all that much paperwork, relatively speaking. Loki solved this with a quickness. Now, maybe whether this is Sylvie or Lady Loki, Maybe every Loki and every character connected to Loki is just that much smarter than everyone at the TVA. I would believe that.

But how does Lady Loki know this much about the inner workings of the TVA apparatus? How does the variant even know about the reset charges in the first place? Was it simply the ability to escape the first pruning and then learn and collect clues from there? Could there be a deeper connection to the timekeepers? That's a great question. Like, I think, you know, the quality of Loki that we are aware of is that a Loki, any Loki, pick your Loki, is very like adaptable and curious, right? Loki is a shapeshifter.

Not just as he blends in as Asgard, but like when, you know, in Ragnarok, when he just sort of like slides into the society there, you know, in order to like save his own neck, right? So it was just sort of like that curious, that like, I'm going to pretend I know what's going on. Fake it till you make it sort of thing. You know what I mean? And I feel like, but yeah, I'm really curious to find out what the inciting incident for this woman, whoever she may be, is in terms of finding out about the TVA. I'm excited to find out. To Lady Loki's credit, the only people who don't know how hiding the apocalypse work are Van and Charles.

So like, it's real, it's a real, you know, simple concept. You know, it's like, you know, this can't be too hard. When nothing matters in the timeline, you can pretty much go there and do what you'd like, right? Oh, I get it. It's not hard. I get it. I love you guys. I love my midnight boys.

Oh, boy. Jomi, hiding out in the doomsday event of this episode of Rearverse here. Dance while you can. All right. Our last question from Derek Murphy. Which water-based apocalyptic event is Loki going to take Mobius so he can experience jet skiing? I know the answer to this. I love this question.

I would like Mobius to jet ski in the wake of the Titanic sinking. Dodging eye shards. Dodging Kate and Leo, just having the time of his life. Oh, my goodness. There you go. Not the most tropical setting. I guess it doesn't. I guess it, yeah.

Have you ever been ice? jet skiing. No, I love that. But that's beautiful. The poetic harmony of the ice runt. Aw. And Juski. Not only that,

Loki's going to make a play for the necklace. 100%. He's going to get his. He's going to get his. He's going to get his. And then can he just like hoist Leo up on the door while he's at it? Just do a drive-by hoisting. It'll be fine.

I love it. Beautiful. That was a really fun question. Okay. This was a blast. What an absolute thrill. What an absolute treat. I feel like I just gorged on all of the grapes and nuts on offer

through the form of this scintillating and wonderful conversation. But we're out of reset charges. Yeah, that's it. We strive for, like, nutrition with our treats, right? It's not just Kablooy content. This is, like, this is a stay new. By the way, short run for Kablui, who specified the dates in which Kabloy could be found,

and it was only a few years. So not great. I'm a little worried that Caboey got, you know, taken off the shelves. Why? Not the lasting power of many of the candies that we're used to here on our earth. Thank you, as always, to our timekeeper producer Steve Olman, as well as to our Juno Ram Gapal, T.D. St. Matthew, Daniel, and the entire production team for all of their help with this Ring of Rose episode. Thank you to the Lord of the Memes, Jo Mia Dineran, for his work.

on the social for this episode. And of course, thank you to my favorite mischief maker, Joanna Robinson, for joining me today. What a true, true treat. Remember, follow the ringerverse on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Follow us on social and head back into the ringerverse on Wednesday for the Midnight Boys instant reaction to Loki episode three. I will be back with you next Friday. Until then, enjoy your Josta. Enjoy your salad. and hide the salt and pepper shakers.