The Ringer-Verse - 'Loki' Ep. 2: Instant Reactions | The Midnight Boys

Episode Date: June 16, 2021

Van and Charles come back to talk about the major events of and give their knee-jerk reactions to Episode 2 of 'Loki' on Disney+ (03:45). They debate some of the ins and outs of time travel in the MCU as well as comment on the continued dynamic between Mobius and Loki. Hosts: Van Lathan and Charles Holmes Producer: Steve Ahlman Engineer: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production: TD St. Matthew-Daniel Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at fandual.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. Come into the ringerverse. This is, of course, the ringer's nexus podcast fee for all things, fandom. You're listening to my voice, which means you are. tapped in to Charles Holmes, the host of the infamous and amazing Ringer music show. Along with me, Van Lathen, one of the hosts of Higher Learning with Van Lathen and Rachel

Lindsay here on the Ringer podcast Network. Together we are known as the Midnight Boys. Wait, when's Rachel coming on The Midnight Boys? That would be a waste. of time. Does Rachel watch movies? I heard I was in this podcast. It seems like she don't really keep up with the pop culture. Rachel has never seen Back to the Future.

What the fuck? Charles. Charles, did you see that? See? People think it's me. People think I'm being hard on her. People think it's me. Rachel's never seen back to the future. Back to the future is a, that's a right of passage of like pop culture passage.

Guess who doesn't get it, Van Lathan? I don't get it. I don't understand it. So what I'm telling you is, she could come on here if she just wanted to frustrate our entire audience but other than that she's going to add nothing like if she hadn't seen like Thor the dark world I would understand but you said back to the future

god damn you say Marty McFly to her she's like who's that no clue no clue so she she could be out on the street seeing a Delorian and she has no clue what it is no clue the guy saved his whole family put his life on the line saved his whole family she has no clue no clue of the sacrifices that he made All right.

The Midnight Boys, of course, we are here. We're giving instant knee-jerk reactions to Loki, the latest MCU series on the old Disney Plus Network. We are here for the Impulsive, reactive, not quite well-thought-out opinions on this series. This is what we do. If you want deep dive, heavy stuff, you got to do it on Friday. Friday is when you're going to be doing it with Mallory over at the House of Mow.

She takes a couple of days. very, very thoughtful. She brings on amazing special guests and they talk about these things in depth. So we give you a mixed bag here on the ring of verse. We give you instant reaction and we give you more thought-out stuff. And they're the ones that beat us up.

The listeners beat you up for the Hulk shit, didn't even listen to the post-credit scene like just beating you up for no reason. It's okay. I stand by my original assessment that that's something that needs to revisit it. the Holt's bodily function since they're going to keep a Hulk like that for a long time. Now, I do want to shout out, shout out to Musa for joining Mao on the last ones they did.

That was a great podcast. I know you're listening to the House of Mal. It's amazing. And we're going to have more surprises here on the Ring of Verse Feed. We're going to be unpredictable. We're going to be unpredictable here on the Ring of Verse Feed. So you never know what we're going to cover. When things pop up, we're going to get to them.

Now, we've kept you guys waiting long enough. It's time for us to dive into episode two. of Loki. Now, here's the deal. Every single week, we come in here and we do this stuff, sometimes twice a week. Me and Charles, we pour our hearts into this podcast. And every single week, him and I ask the same question. Why do we have to do what I'm about to do right now, which is give a spoiler warning on a React podcast. Speak on it. I don't know why I have to do it. They don't hear you in the back, van. They don't hear you in the back. Don't hear me in the back. I don't know why. But you guys, you guys always want something to complain about.

You know, oh, he's spoiled it. He spoiled it. It's a React podcast. All right. So this is what I'm going to do. Steve, roll our general spoiler warning. We're getting ready to talk about the episode. You're listening to a reaction podcast.

The spoilers are coming. All right. Now we got to do the 40 second recap of then. Moment of truth. Moment of truth. Do you need 40 seconds? Because I did mine in 25. No, it's not a competition.

Too old for it. It definitely is a competition. Everything on the midnight boys is a competition. Life is a competition, man. For you. Life is not a competition. Life is about peace. You're too young to know that.

When you get to my age, you'll realize that life is actually about it. No, that's what happens when you blow your knees, your ACLs one too many times. You like, life ain't a competition, boys. I play in a competition, all right? We just play for fun. I play basketball this morning.

And anytime you want. How many points did you get up? I'll cook you. How many points did you get up, man? I got up about seven out of 13. I'm playing. I was playing with children, but still, it doesn't matter. They were like teenagers, but it doesn't matter.

Damn, wait, were you? Wait, teenagers, how old? Like 17, 18. Damn, they must have looked at you like, God damn, who is this grandpa on the court? No, it was, it was like, nah, it's like, is, is, you get like a certain, once you start hitting them with some shit, you get a certain, they start to feel like you, you're the old dude. with the knee brace out there giving them work. I'm like, yeah, I'm like, okay, good, good. Boom, spin, get to the basket.

All right. Enough of Charles commenting about my age. It is time for the 40-second recap. All right, Jomi, you there? I'm ready. You're ready for it? All right. Yes, sir.

Put 40 seconds on the clock, and it is now. We begin in 1980s of the Rinfair in Wisconsin, where a minute men are lured into a trap sat by the variant Loki. The variant whoops their ass and steals more pruning devices. Back at the TVA, Loki learns about how everything works and goes into the field in hopes to deceive Mobius. It fails.

Rinslayer tells Mobius he is on thin ice and to get things right with the dangerous variant. Loki discovers that the variant is hiding in apocalyptic events. Thanks to the bubble gum, they tracked the variant down in the department store where the variance reveals to be Lady Loki. Lake Loki attempts to destroy the store with everyone in it and escapes me a time gate where Loki then follows her. Boom! Jomi, what time do we got?

32 seconds. Damn, you almost broke my record, man. 32 seconds. I keep telling you, you don't need the extra 10. We should take it down to 30 again. I'm not concerned, baby. That was nice. I said personal goals.

And my personal goals tell me, I'm a winner today. I'm a winner today. All right. So with that, there's a note in here And a question that I'll ask you, I said that not much happened in the first episode. Charles, do you feel like not much happened in this episode as well?

I don't think much happened. I think what we're seeing with Loki is that the Marvel, the Marvel Cinematic Universe for the first time is almost making a show where it's rooted in discussion. It's rooted in debate, Loki versus Mobius, because just like the first episode,

the spine of this episode is Mobius and Loki arguing and going back and forth and having these very, very existential arguments. I, like, as a movie lover, TV lover, loved it. I'm going to be very surprised to see what, like, regular just like run-of-the-mill fans think of this episode because there's not a lot of fighting. There's not a lot of, like, bang-by-bang stuff. It's just two guys debating. What did you think?

There's an amazing sequence at the end when they get to Rock's Cart. where Loki is jumping from, the Loki variant is jumping from person to person. And that to me, if you're looking for superhero antics, it's probably going to be the closest thing that you're going to get to that in this episode. Yeah.

This is not a superhero show. This is a character opera about a God becoming a human being. And I feel like this is the episode where you see that. Okay. Because Loki has to use not his magical powers in this episode. He has to use his wits. He has to use like things that anybody on this Zoom could use, right? Yeah.

He has to figure out the pattern that the variant is displaying and then relay that back to the TVA, right? That's his big heroic feat here. He doesn't use magic to do that. He doesn't use some sort of incantation. He doesn't use Asgardian technology to do that. He uses his wit and intellect to do it, right? And it seems to be that this particular episode is setting up Loki as a figure that is less

than powerful. Mobius as someone who we start to see that his role in the TVA is sort of a renegade, almost like a morphist of the TVA. Yes. Like he doesn't follow the rules that everybody else has to follow. He believes in essentially a variant. You know, when you think about it,

it's kind of similar to the Matrix in a little bit. A little bit. You're going to need to land this plane van. Okay. So I'll tell you why it's kind of similar. Loki is a variant. Neo was an anomaly. There was one person.

who believed in the anomaly that the anomaly could fix things that had gone wrong that was Morpheus. In this show, there's one person that believed that the variant can fix things that are gone wrong and, you know, that's Mobius,

right? And they're going against the will of a larger organization. By the way, that's when the Matrix started to suck. I'll be honest with you when Morpheus was the rogue going against everyone else and they brought in Roy Jones Jr. as a member of the council and all of that stuff.

But it's kind of the same thing. Like he has a belief in somebody that exists outside of something that was supposed to be and has a particular set of skills and whatever is needed to bring this entire thing down. And he's willing to go it alone. Even the relationship between Mobius and Ravona Renslayer, the fact that she's more straight-laced, she believes, she believes in doing things the right way. and he's going sort of against her,

but there seems to be a little thing that they got going on right there. So I don't know. It kind of reminded me of that. That's why the one hamper, a little metaphor that you had, is that we learned in this episode that Loki as like a figure

has, if not, one of the most variants of anybody in the universe. And I think thematically what we're seeing instead of, if we want to keep going with the Matrix thing, is that Neo is special because he's the one. He's destined to be this thing. Ah, but you're wrong because there have been several ones

as they explained in that, in that, in the, I think it's the second one or the third one. You don't even remember which one it is, man? Because I don't understand what the guy was saying. Because I've watched that dozens of times. I can't understand that scene. Do you know what I'm talking about when Neo is in the, thing with the dude and the guy saying, hey, they've been,

he's dressed up like Colonel Sanders or whatever. You are the eventuality of an anomaly, which despite my sincerest efforts, I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. But the guy explains to him that there have been like a bunch of NEOs before. It's kind of, it's, it's a little similar. Loki is, Loki is Neo in this. But the thing I do think is very interesting. You convince me.

I think it is very interesting that the wrinkle is that, like you said, this episode is all about making Loki more human. And Loki realizing that he's not that special. Because Moby's whole thing throughout this episode is like, man, you're not as smart as you think you are. Like, you're not the best Loki up there. Moby's is trying to learn about Loki through this variant to catch the other Loki. And I think Loki is having this crisis of like, am I the best out there?

If there's like a bunch of other Loki's that are outsmarting the TVA. And I think that's the really, really interesting thing about this episode is it starts to unravel what the TVA is. Is it real? At one point, correct me if I'm wrong, like Mobius and Loki are having this discussion where they're basically like, what's, what's real? Are the Asgardians gods? Are the TVA gods? Like what they're talking about kind of religion in a way of what is real? What is it to believe in something when you have actually no proof of it?

Because no one has seen the timekeepers yet. Lizard gods seem insane. And Mobius is just like, yeah, as guardians seem insane, dude. And I love that back and forth because it opens the Marvel universe in such an amazing way. What did you think about that? No, you couldn't be more right. Also, the series is playing with what is ultimate power. We talked a little bit about this last show with the Infinity Stones.

So Mobius has a goal. His goal doesn't seem to be noble at all. It seems, when you think about it, Loki's goal, as stated in the first episode, was just order. Right? He was like, freedom is less important. than order is. And that's been his things. Like people think that freedom is great,

but what freedom really does is give you the freedom to lead yourself into oblivion, and I'll give order. When you think about it, Mobius is kind of the same way. Like, he doesn't really, if you veer off of the timeline, if you do, what he's really doing

is making sure that things end the way they're supposed to end. making sure that the like maintaining the sacred timeline till the end of time, that that goes the way it's supposed to go. It's really the ultimate order. It's not good. It's not bad. He doesn't want people to thrive.

He doesn't want people to suffer. He just wants people to do what they're supposed to do. And so it's a weird way that as you watch the show that both of them are coming back to thinking about things almost in the same way. And you can see that at some point, the team-up is going to work, even though by the end of this episode, there's obviously a major fracture in that team-up. You know what I mean? Well, before we go to that, to what you were saying, Mobia says at one point in the episode, if you think too hard about where any of us come from, who we truly are, it sounds kind of ridiculous. Existence is chaos.

And I do think Mobius, almost like Loki, is trying to make existence a little less chaotic, is trying to believe in something bigger than themselves, or that they are the big thing that should be believed in, and trying to box in the chaos. And I do think that's why Mobius has like this weird bromance with Loki in a way. Mobius sees something in Loki that no one else can, sees an, has an understanding. of what Loki actually wants. Like, Loki doesn't really want to rule anything. He wants to have order.

And the way that Loki at least thought to do that in like Avengers in 2012 or whatever is by ruling. But Moby's is like, you don't really have to rule to chase order. And that's why I think Loki weirdly kind of makes a good TVA agent. Right. He does. Like, it works for him. And by the way, something else that struck me in the first episode of the show,

as it relates to, and that's why I said the conversation between the dynamic between Mobius and Loki is becoming very, you're starting to see that they're more similar than they think they are. It's because, you know, the TVA agents, just like Loki, don't have a problem killing you if they feel like you're out of line. Yes. In the very first episode, that guy won't take his ticket and they melt him away to nothing.

You know what I mean? There's a point to where there's a goal that they have, and that goal means more than anything. And now when you see them chasing these Loki variants, the show has a lot to do with purpose. What we're dealing with right now, at least in my opinion, is for the first time, Loki is purposeless. He had a purpose. Now, the Loki that we knew throughout this entire time found purpose. This Loki doesn't have purpose. he's living in a world where the purpose is to keep things in order, but that's not really his.

He's doing what he has to do to find out what he's going to be and what he's going to do. And in this episode, particularly, him proving that he is an asset to them, figuring stuff out by, you know, actually putting himself in harm's way. like to me, like launch the character forward into finding out what he's supposed to be doing in all of this madness. I mean, Loki says something that's just as much about himself and his arc as it is about like the TVA and Mobius.

He says no one that is bad is actually bad and no one good is actually good. Like you said, the TVA does not care. They will kill you and not think about it. It's all about preserving the secret timeline, preserving order. And that's what I think I like about the TVA the most is I'm just like, they're not villains, but they're not heroes.

They almost, going back to that big Loki quo about like a greater purpose, they just believe in their purpose. And they're going to do what they need to do to make it happen. But one thing I want to talk to you about is probably my favorite part of the episode is the Jetsky. Oh. Like Loki, like Loki is like leafing through this magazine. of jet skis, and you realize that Mobius loves jet skis.

He thinks it's like... He wants to jet ski. Have you ever been on a jet ski then? Yes. What was it like I've never been on one? Never before. So Harvey Levin, the host of TMZ, went through a jet ski face in his life.

Like he owned multiple jet skis. No, he didn't own them, but he went jet skiing every single weekend, right? So it must have been like 2012 to where Harvey calls me over and he was like, hey, you want to go jet skiing? I thought this was the biggest thing in the world. I thought this meant that I was in, you know, the boss or the company asked me to go jet skiing. This is the only time I ever been jet skiing. I'm like, yo, I thought this was dope.

This is great. So we go to Marina Del Rey. We're getting into the jet skis and all of this stuff like that. And we go out into the water. And when I see people jet skiing, they're fucking jet skiing in like calm water, zipping around doing tricks and stuff like that. Yeah.

We were jet skiing in like the Pacific Ocean where it was choppy as shit. And I was doing my best to hold on to the jet skis. So we go over there. We go around to this place and there's like this. thing where there's all these sea lions and they're hanging out on the buoy, which was kind of cool to see. And one of the guys, another guy from the office drove by me, was like, hey, there's sea lions here. I bet that means that there's probably sharks around because sharks feed on sea lions. And after that, it ruined the jet ski experience. I'm almost about to, already about to fall off of

the jet ski because you hit waves and the shit is choppy. And now, They're zooming, and I'm going super slow because I'm looking out for sharks, like, all around. And Harvey wanted to go out and touch a battleship that was in the middle of the fucking ocean. And he was like, look at the planes taking off from fucking LAX. I'm like, yo, man, I don't give a fuck about none of this. This dude just said it was fucking sharks out here. It would just be me to leave Louisiana and come out to L.A. and get eaten by a fucking shark and had that shit end up on TMZ.

So what I'm saying is I say all that to say. Moby's likes the jet skis, Van Lathan, not so much. Did you look like Jay-Z on a jet ski? Be real. No, I mean, I look, I, the jet ski itself, if it was, if I was with different, by the way, I also learned that this had nothing to do with my career extension at TMZ. He was basically picking different employees every single week and taking them jet skiing. Everybody had been jet skiing. So you literally were just one of many on a list.

bro everyone had been jet skiing everyone was like they were you asked before a lot of people or were you down on the list? No hell no they had been jet skiing for years. Damn if I would have known that I would have never gone like I was super hyped I was I was telling calico like yo man I'm serious man I think I'm gonna be hosting the show soon like this shit's crazy it's going great here I'm going jet skiing with the boss just hanging and I, blah, blah, blah, nothing. Nothing.

If you're a member of the TVA, man. Yeah. What is your perfect item? What is your Moby's jet ski? That, no matter what timeline you're in, you're like, this is the perfect item. See, I don't want to really do very much shit that I haven't done. Like, I'm not trying to, like, zip line. But it don't got to be a jet ski.

It just got to be, like, maybe you're really into, like, Generation 1 iPods. Like, that's your item. Ooh, ooh, ooh. Game Boy. Oh, that's a good one. It'd be the Game Boy. The Game Boy is hot and we never had enough money when I was a kid.

I remember my dad, I asked my dad for a Game Boy. My dad was like, yo, nigger, I'm not about to buy you an extra Nintendo. I already bought you the one Nintendo. I'm not about to buy you an extra Nintendo so you can have a Nintendo. Wait, he didn't get the appeal of a Game Boy?

No, he didn't understand why if you had Nintendo at your house that you have to have Nintendo like walking around with you. He didn't get it. He's like, it's the stupidest thing I ever saw before my life. There's no way I'm getting you that so you can fail out of school. Anyway, though, but I like this because it also shows you, I like the Mobius thing because it shows you that there's a significant sacrifice that involves being in the TVA and it builds

intrigue as to why they're doing it. Like, where do they come from? What gives them this crazy sense of duty? Why are these people tasked with doing this and why are they so loyal to this task? If it means not jet skiing, if it means not ever having any fish, if it means never leaving your desk, is it a punishment for someone?

This TVA seems to be a much different iteration of the TVA than it is. than exists in the comic. Or is it a duty? Because Mobius throughout this whole thing, Loki keeps pestering him. Like, why do you believe in the TVA? Why do you believe in the timekeepers?

You've never seen them. And Mobius almost thinks of the TVA as like a duty. As a religion. As a religion. Like, he's not worried about that. So I do, I do think it's an interesting thing

where will we see Mobius seeing the TV as more of a burden as this continues? think that's his arc. Is the TVA fascist, you think? Ah, see, here's the problem with that. They are. But the problem with defining them as fascist in this particular scenario is that we kind of know they're right, right? We kind of know that, or at least we suspect right now, that they're right. We kind of know that you can't have, as has been explain to us in other properties, you can't have havoc across the timeline. It just won't work.

So somebody has to maintain order in the timeline or else everything would be messed up and you'd have all of these crazy things and you might have people jumping timelines and taking stuff over. So they have to do what they have to do. Or at least we think that they do. So at this point, are they fascist? Yeah, but I guess the question would be, Do they have to be? And I guess all fascists feel like they have to be. Here's my thing, though. And this goes into the variant Loki.

We can get into this later. Does there need to be order in the timeline? From what we know of Marvel Comics and how chaotic it is. Like the multiverse, multiple timelines, sometimes is a good thing. We see it in DC comics all the time. I would see the TVAs fascist

because who is to say that they should be the controllers and the arbiters of who gets to have a timeline who does. Who gets to decide what the sacred timeline is? Yeah. That I get, that I understand, which is, you know, the question I feel like is going to drive this entire series.

I guess what I would say is, even as described by the ancient one as she was talking to Banner, something that I referenced in the last show, she describes to him, it being particularly dangerous. And these are people who are with the guardians of the time stone. So this is kind of their bad.

She describes it to him as being particularly dangerous to cause branch timelines, to augment timelines, and to have all of that. So there's, it's possible that she's getting that information or she got that information because she adhered to sort of the mythos or ethos of the, of the timekeepers, but it's also possible that there's truth to it. And I guess these are the questions

that the show has to answer. The show has to answer because we're dealing with a variant Loki. Like we're dealing with a variant Loki. Like our hero is a variant. Our hero is an affront to the timeline. So if that's the case, then once all of this is figured out,

well, what happens to him? He just gets reset. You know what I mean? So it's interesting. His journey doesn't become his journey anymore. We go right back to 2012. Then where does it leave the character from then on? You know, this is a lot of questions.

And this episode really is the one that started to ask these questions. For example, like Mobius and Ravona Renslayer. Now, in the comic books, Rvona Rensselaer is very famously the off and on girlfriend of Kane to Conqueror, right? Somebody we expect to get to know. but to me, it seemed like they had some energy towards one another in this one. When they were sitting down in her chambers and they're going back and forth and they're talking, it seemed as if they were lamenting something that they once had. Did you get that feel from that?

I didn't get that feel, but it makes sense. You know what I'm saying? She wanted a little cream in the coffee. You know what I'm saying? Who could say no to Owen Wilson? You know what I mean? Right. Right.

You like Owen Wilson. like you're you're uh you're enjoying it can we talk is it too early to talk about the big twist the big twist of the episode which isn't really a twist because we all knew this shit was going to happen but the big twist lady loki for comic book fans I believe lady loki was introduced in jay

Michael Shersinsky's very like famous Thor run that kind of like revamped Thor for a new generation very very good love that run what do you think of the reveal of Lady Loki were you fucking with it I was I really didn't know, you know, she had been rumored. She had been a rumor to be a part of it.

We knew she was a part of it. But I didn't know how they were going to use her. That's the thing that really got me on board with the outlook of the rest of the series because I just have to know why she's doing this. You know, like what's the point of her doing this? Yeah, she does not give a fuck about what our variant Loki cares about. She doesn't care about ruling the TVA. So I was immediately like, then, what, why are you doing all of this?

She has a really cool power where she, like, touches people in this, like, Walmart space when all of the time, the Minutemen, along with, like, Mobius and Loki are searching for her. And she can basically, like, go into other people's bodies and take them over. It was very cool. I was on it. So I want to know, like, just what her deal is. But I have another question for you, Van. Are you rocking with me? Are you ready?

Let's go. People are arguing on Twitter. They're arguing whether. Magneto should be black. Okay? They were like, instead of Magneto being from the Holocaust, set him in the civil rights era,

make him black, that's where the X-Men are, whatever. Now we're seeing that there are time variant lokies. There's like a lady Loki. There might be a kid Loki. Would you rock if they change Magneto? If we're changing up everyone right now? Let's take a couple of things.

So are we then assuming now, that lady Loki from this from this show Sophia D. Martino are you saying that there's a chance that there is a handing off of the Loki mantle to her? Are you saying that you think it's a chance? I think that

if we, what we've seen from every single MCU show this far is that they introduce another member of the Young Avengers. It happened in Wanda Vision with Billy and Tommy. It happened with Eli and Falcon and the Winter Soldier. It seems like it's happening again

and Loki because young Loki was a member of the Young Avengers. It seems like that's what this all might be leading towards. It seems like a passing of the baton. Hence why I asked you about the Magneto thing, because if we're just changing up all of our heroes, would you rock with that? So here's the thing about Magneto, Magneto himself. My thing with changing who characters are,

like going to Lady Loki doesn't really change Loki. No. in any way, okay? It doesn't change Loki in any way. That's what I would say about Magneto. If you retcon Magneto, there's a fundamental aspect of his character background that you have to change.

For me, if you change Peter Parker to a black guy, doesn't change Peter Parker at all. No, Miles Morales' struggles are different, but it's still like a kid from a New York borough, great power, great responsibility. we rock with it, we get it. A lot of what Magneto has gone through comes from the origin

of him being a Holocaust survivor. Right? And him seeing certain things. Now, you can easily change that, right? You could change that and make that the struggle of the civil rights era or make that, you know, a kid who witnessed

the Tulsa massacre or Rosewood or something that happened a little bit later if you don't want to age the character too much. There's plenty of things you can choose from to give that same motivation. But there is something that you subtract culturally from Magneto when you change that. And a lot of people who identify with Magneto and a lot of what happened with Magneto, you change it completely.

Now, to me, do you change that if you make Superman a black guy? Not really. Do you change it? If you take Black Panther and you make Black Panther, an English prince or an English king, the White Panther, it's totally different. It's not the same.

I mean, you could do it, but it's like you remove the culture from it and people who were attached to that specific culture are going to feel away about it. So you could change it. And I, myself, probably wouldn't be up in arms about it, but the people that would be up in arms about it,

I kind of be like they kind of got a point. You know, and when you're writing a campaign, character and you ground a character in something as serious and as consequential as the Holocaust, it's hard to undo that. It's just, it's just, it's just, it's, it's, it's also speaks to like the multiverse. And what I think my issue is, like, like you said, like Loki, Lady Loki does not change who Loki fundamentally is. This is the god of mischief.

an agent of chaos. If he's a lady, if he's a kid, whatever, it's still low key. And I think as like the Marvel universe, whether we start getting

like different Spider-Men if like, I don't know, Tui McGuire comes back, that doesn't change fundamentally who Spider-Man is. But I do think with what they're going to have

to be very careful about certain characters, like let's say the X-Men, is like, I don't, like, I would argue, I don't actually think like the X-Men,

no matter what Stanley tells you, that shit is not a metaphor for civil rights. It's not. Like, that's like some retconning shit that he said after the fact. Wow.

I don't actually think it is. Like textually. You call bullshit on Stan, huh? I call bullshit. I call bullshit. I think it's a nice thing for him to say in 2000 when the X-Men movie is coming out. And he's like, all right, you know, I could get some press out of this. I think anything that we put on the X-Men.

I'm almost certain he had said that before. No. Yeah, I read that. I read that when I was reading comics in a night. No, no, no, no. No, no. He was like, go back and read those comics. It is not about the civil rights era.

I read that when I was coming. Look, you might be right that he was capping, but I definitely read that when I was coming up. You think a white man back then in the 60 was like, yeah, man, we're going to make Magneto Malcolm X and we're going to make Professor X MLK. That shit was not happening. Why are you fucking hating on Stan Lee right now?

I don't hate on Stanley. I just think Stan Lee was very, very good at going back and creating stories that necessarily weren't really true. and I just think that like if that's the case they like they created black panther during that time as well like they didn't create black panther because of the black panther party it was just coincidence I didn't say that they did but what I'm saying is that they were at least thinking in a different realm they were on the cutting edge of comic book uh character creation so I could see I could see them doing it the DC guys I couldn't see them doing it but I could see them doing it

I'm not disagreeing with you I'm not saying that I'm not disagree with you saying that it could have been disingenuous. I'm saying that's a that's a hell of a thing to say about Stan, but I love Stan. I love Stan the man. I'm just saying that like I don't want them to start like 20-21 like the X-Men where I'm just like the metaphor for the X-Men works because it's so loose because it could be a standing for for race for for gender, for sexuality, for all these things. We graph that on. I don't think that that shit has actually ever been in the text that much as we wanted to be. But that's besides the point.

This is a NextMen podcast. This is a Loki podcast. Another question about variants. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable Internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with Internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support.

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Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. you don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. Transport your senses with Saltijanado's limited edition perfume mist collection. At Sephora, spritz on lush notes of rainforest orchid and crisp sea breeze with hafresco paraizzo.

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I'm going to have a segment called Calling Bullshit. I call bullshit that the TVA wouldn't have been able to figure that out. Look, I really enjoyed the Pompeii scene, even though Jesus Christ, what a tragedy. Rest and peace, all my homies in Pompeii, that was tough. but I like I call bullshit that the entire TVA who specializes in variance and specializes in catching and capturing variance

over this amount of time would not have been able to figure that out and Loki was able to figure it out essentially his second or third day on the job but we won't know how time moves in the TVA so it could have been his ninth year on the job I'm going to call bullshit but in the same thing the explanation of like the Pompeii scene and how basically a variant can hide within like a cataclysm and no one will be able to find them because like the timeline is going to be destroyed

I call bullshit in that way we're going to get into Galaxy Rain Corner again because with Pompeii Pompey is not destroying a timeline it's destroying an area of a world but they're still in Asia there's still a fucking Africa there are still other people who are living.

It's only destroying people's timelines who are dying. Like, what do they mean by like, oh, Pompeii, like, this whole timeline is destroyed now? I'm like, what the world? Pompeii happened in our world and our timeline was not destroyed. So what the fuck are they talking about? I guess Pompeii would be considered an apocalyptic scenario to those people because, so like Pompeii or whatever happened on the Yucatan Peninsula with the Mines. lions or, you know, countless other.

There have been other civilizations that just up and gone. It's not apocalyptic to us, but it is apocalyptic to them because they ceased to exist and some of them had their culture ripped away from the other. Yes, but then we're talking about, we are talking about individual timelines and not the main timeline. We are talking about a culture being destroyed and their timeline, maybe stopping. But that to me doesn't represent

like a branch timeline because the earth is still there. There's still humans on the earth. What are we talking? And that's probably my big issue. And I understand what you're saying, but I'm still trying to understand the whole timeline stuff.

So I understand what you're saying, but can't a timeline be dictated by an individual's choice? So, you know what? No, there's no way around it. Like, you're right. Because the reality is, the reality is,

even though Pompeii happened, it was niggas that rode their horses over Pompeii. Yes. You know what I mean? So it doesn't change. Like Pompey being destroyed. You know what I mean? Doesn't change or like destroy a timeline.

It might destroy like one person's timeline. Like if we were in Pompeii and we died. Several people's timelines. Yeah. But like there's not, because here's the thing. If they're talking about like humans having different timelines, then there would be billions upon billions of

them and this would not be a show. So I think the problem that I'm having with all the time shenanigans happening in Marvel right now is that like I spend so much time thinking about it. That it just, I'm like, stop. We got to. There's too much. You're all doing too much. It depends on the way you look at it.

Is Pompeii an apocalypse? Yeah, in a way, it's not a entire apocalypse. Like, was the meteor crashing in apocalypse for our, uh, our cutley friends, the dinosaurs. Shout out to Taranosaurus Rex and the Philosoeraptor. Yeah, it was. It was an apocalypse for them, but it wasn't like the apocalypse of Earth.

Well, and this is, and we could get off this because people are going to be like, are y'all talking about time travel again? No, no, no, no, I'm being honest. But look, get off what? This is what we do. The reality is that these are the questions that you're asking. So let me ask you one more question, though.

For the variant, what I don't understand, is that they're telling me that if a variant goes to an apocalyptic event and they hide within that apocalyptic event, they can do whatever they want to. And then once everything is destroyed, the TVA isn't going to know anything because they're not looking at that because the timeline was destroyed. What does that mean, Jomey?

We're not here. Y'all not here? Y'all not outside. Y'all not outside. What do you mean? We're not outside. It's like this. In an apocalyptic event, right,

for the people, that, whatever, you know, area they're in, everybody there is dead, right? Yes. So you can't affect their time, right? Because a sudden cladicismic event is coming to wipe that whole thing out whether you do anything or not. So there's nothing you can do to change the fate of everybody around you. That's why that works. But what you were saying, Jomey, now, is that we are talking about, individual timelines, me as a person having a timeline, that Loki can't change because

everything is getting destroyed. That's not changing the timeline of the earth or that universe. Everybody has an apocalypse. Like every, every single person has an end of their world. Yes. Everybody does. Yeah. So, Jomey, what the fuck are you talking about? So what are you talking about? No, what are you talking about? I'm saying. Like, no, everybody, everybody hasn't. If they cannot change the outcome of wherever they're hiding, that's why the apocalypse works, because it's a sudden cladclismic event that even if Loki was like, hey, you're about to die, they can't change the volcano from erupting.

Therefore, a branch timeline cannot be made. Therefore, they can't be detected by the TVA, right? Because whatever is going to happen is going to happen. Okay. It's not that hard. I'm willing to go with either side here It's just You're overthinking it

That seems like thin No it's just it's overthinking it No because here's the thing That's Kate Ross thing right there What we're really talking about Is that branch timelines are like confusing as fuck Because they still have not told us What a branch timeline counts as

Is a branch timeline for an earth? Is it for a universe? Do we all have our own branch timelines? Because if we're talking about that, then we're talking about billions upon trillions of branch timelines, which is dumb. I guess, I mean,

my thinking is, like, you can prevent a car accident, right? You can't prevent a volcano from erupted. That's how I think about it. That's what,

okay, that makes sense. Like, a car accident, you could prevent and whatever, but, I mean, the question is,

you can't prevent the volcano from erupting, but you could move all the people. But you're not. The variant isn't. They're just there. They're just existing.

But the timeline doesn't end. That's my argument. Is that the timeline does not end? No, of course not. The timeline doesn't end. But wherever they are, all the evidence goes away. Nobody would know that they were there because that place supposed to be destroyed anyway. But we do know that the people in Pompeii were there, which is why they're in a television show.

No. Because Loki figured it out. Because Loki figured it out. That's what I'm saying. You know what, Joam? Let's have, I want you back next episode. I do. You're now our timekeeper.

By the way, just because, to be honest with you, people were digging in the area of Pompey, and then they fell and they saw all the ruins of Pompeii. As long as you don't die, as long as the variant doesn't die, then, you know. We're putting this to bed. Jomi, peace out. Get the fuck. Bye later, timekeeper. So look, but this is.

is good because we're talking about the episode here and we're talking about the plethora of questions that like this series asks you to ask what i'm asking you right now and i'm being honest with you do you feel like the audience is going to be able to do this enthusiastically being engaged for the entire series or is loki the show going to have going to have to find one specific through line because at the end of this episode right he breaks with the TVA so if this was just going to be about a very simple plot about Loki

finding all of the different variants and rounding them up almost in a Mandalorian style different adventure every single show that would be easy but that's obviously not what they're doing yes so I guess the question is how do you feel like the Marvel cinematic universe audience is going to react to having all of these conversations every single week.

I mean, if it's the MCU audience, they're just going to eat it up. I think we've been taught after years and years and years and years is just like take it, whether you like it or not, like you eat it, like, and you better like it. It's like your dad. He's like, you, you ain't getting anything else. So like, eat this shit. And like you, the next meal might be better for you. That's how I got to think about it. And I like Loki. I just, now if you're talking to me about, like regular schmegular type of a person who's seen a couple like MCU movies, they might be like, I don't like, I don't care.

Like I can see them also being like, dog, I don't care. Like I really don't. But then again, are these Disney Plus, maybe the better question is, are these Disney Plus shows really for the regular fan? Well, yes, they have to be. I mean, that's what they want, but do they operate like that?

They have to be for the regular fan. They have to be. I don't think Marvel, creates things that aren't for the regular fan. I think, though, the genius of Marvel is that they take things that the regular fan might not be into, and then they convert the regular fan

into, like, Guardians of the Galaxy is not for the regular fan, to me. Like, Dr. Strange isn't for the regular fan, but they have to, they, they, Marvel has, to me, lost the ability now to say that, like, we're giving you deep cuts. These shows

have to be accessible to the regular fan. And right now, Loki to me is still finding its way to be super accessible to the regular fame. Because right now with all the comic history that I have running through my brain, what I'm trying to figure out is how they're changing things, how they're going to get to King, how they're going to sort of navigate Mobius and Ravona's relationship. What is Mobius and Loki's relationship going to be like?

What is the overall goal here? What's the end here? How does this end up where everybody's happy? You know, what does the variant want? I think that's the most important question that I have leaving this episode with. We talked about a little bit about her motivations like, what does the Loki variant want? And if Lady Loki wants to destroy the TVA, then why? And are we going to find out that the chaos that the TVA, because there's some background for this in the comic books,

because the timekeepers have not always been like especially in the books they aren't these cuddly groups there's been havoc havoc uh cost so are we going to find out that the TVA is like the shield

of time meaning that they just fucking everything up while trying to fix it so I don't know those are the questions that I have these are important questions but you miss one this is my final question for you Van what up we learned in this episode that to Loki and Asgardians,

grapes and nuts are candy. That's their candy in Asgard. Yeah. Could you survive in Asgard with grapes and nuts as your candy? Probably. I like grapes. I really do. Do you think, do you think like Thor,

the reason that he keeps coming back to Earth, is like he had like a recess or a Snickers, and it just blew his fucking mind? He's like, what is this magic? I'd be honest with you. One of my favorite things to do with my little nephews who were babies, my little nieces and nephews who were babies, their parents wouldn't let them eat stuff.

Their parents are like, don't feel they would leave like no sugar, no nothing. And then I would just like fucking give them like a little drop of like ice cream or a little piece of chocolate and watch their whole fucking life change. Their eyes just go, why? They're just like, what is this? whole life change. Jesus Christ, I hate my parents. Who is this guy? I love him.

So yeah, that could have happened to Thor. But a lot of things probably happened to Thor. You know, Thor came down here. You know, Thor was chilling. Thor, obviously he likes our beer. Obviously, he likes our pizza. Thor loves our women. He loves our women. He likes swarma.

So it's probably a lot of stuff that Thor was getting here. But it also, you know, is good because it's showing you that that as guardian experience is actually more restrictive than we think. Like, we thought that these guys knew everything, but we're living in asking so many questions. You know? Then, let's get into an apology. We have to.

Like right now, before we get out of here, we have to talk about it. We have to talk about it. So Charles, Chuck Wagon, two gun chuck. You finally watched Superman and Lewis. Yeah, man. It was amazing. That pilot episode. Pilots are generally trash.

But man, this pilot made me believe that a man could fly. I thought you were lying. Just everything that they set up about Superman, who he is, the kids, just Superman is dead. It almost made me wish that we could go back

and be like, in time, if we were the timekeepers, we could travel back to Zachson and I would be like, no, stop. Right. This is the Superman movie. This is the Superman. Now, I get it. I get it. Look, I'm happy that you were able to enjoy the show because it's great. Here's the thing. I realized honestly the problem that so many of the recent Superman have had on screen at least is that when you make Superman a dad, you open up so much of his story. You learn so much about him. Because effectively, Superman is our dad or the people that he says.

saves. He is the guy that you look up into the sky and be like, he's perfect. But then when you look closer, you're just like, oh, no, he has problems. And the biggest problem that Superman has on screen is like, how do you make effectively someone who's acting as a god who cannot be hurt? How do you hurt him? And when you give him something that's just not lowest, when you surround him with kids and the worries of what it is to be a parent, how you can't always protect your children, you make him vulnerable now. You're right. I was like, the problem with Superman is right. him in a human way, but this forces him. It forces him to be human.

Yes. It just gets better from this. It gets better from here, baby. They got some big reveals in there for you. They got some gigantic switches up for you. It's well written. Yo, I will say Lana Lang, though, damn, she was, what's her face from Entourage? I had to look that you up.

Yeah, she was. She's still looking great. good, man. Yeah, Emmanuel Chikery. She was Sloan, Sloan from Autaraj. In the first episode, when I saw Sloan, I'm like, Clark, you dirty dog. This is really why you want to move back to

Smallville, my man. Trying to give back to Smallville. But, Van. Vanme, you haven't watched Attack on Titan yet. I'm watching on a plane. To New York? Yeah. Watching on a plane to New York. All right, if you get in trouble in New York, man. It gets rough out here. Just say my name. It rings out. You know what I mean? Okay. I do look forward to having dinner with you in a safe area

because I don't want to have to rely on your name for my safety when I'm in New York. You don't think my name rings out in the streets? I doubt it. I doubt. I doubt. I doubt it. It's okay. It's okay. If I was to come to L.A. and I was to drop your name, like, how far would it get me? It depends on where you are. You know, if you were going to a nice museum for evening out, they'd be like, oh, Van knows here. Van comes to museums all the time. If you talk about them streets, they're going to be like,

ooh, a dude from TMZ? You think I won't fuck you up because of him? They love me, but it's not going to do you no good. They're going to fuck you up. All right. Yeah, so that is it for us. Follow us at Ring Averse is on Facebook, IG, and Twitter. Follow and share the show.

We are growing this community every single day. We're very, very happy with you guys. Also, make sure you check in with Mallory Rubin for her deep dives into Loki every Friday with all. kinds of cool special guests. She's going to have one every single week. Charles, take us out. Van doesn't like jet skis about that.

There are no if, ands, or butts. And here on the Midnight, boys, all we like is grapes and some nuts. Boy, you're good. We're coming to those top of the head, man. You, we out. If you could make any Marvel character a woman, who do you think would be a better woman? Like a lady Loki type character. Lady Loki.

Gambit. Oh, Gambit, really? Gambit would make a cool lady. Hmm. Like a, like a, ooh, monchity. You know what I'm saying? Gambit would make a cool lady. You know, take a playing card, you know, out of her bosoms.

You're getting way too horny for me. They made all the ex-women back in the day. They just gave them these ridiculous proportions. Like, Jim Lee and all of those guys. I remember I used to open those pages and read them almost like, like it was Playboy or Blacktail Magazine or something like that. Like they, the women were, there was this one scene where they were all sitting around the pool and Rogue and Gene Gray were like in bathing suits.

And I was like, yo, what are they doing? You know what I mean? You know who I think would make a really good woman? Who? The thing. You know what I mean? You know, it's clobbering time over here, people. You know what I mean? Okay. Yeah. All right. Let's get on track. Let's get back on.