The Ringer-Verse - ‘Loki’ Ep. 4: Analysis, Themes, and Theories

Episode Date: July 2, 2021

Mal is joined by Rolling Stone chief TV critic Alan Sepinwall to talk about the monumental fourth episode of ‘Loki,’ entitled “Nexus Event” (03:36). They discuss Mobius and the discovery he makes in this episode (55:05) as well as what may be the driving force behind the Time-Keepers (74:59). Then Mal joins Jomi Adeniran and Daniel Chin to answer your mailbag questions (111:48). Host: Mallory Rubin Guests: Alan Sepinwall, Daniel Chin, and Jomi Adeniran Producer: Steve Ahlman Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal and TD St. Matthew-Daniel Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. It's like, look at your eyes. You like her. What? You like her. Does she like you? But she pruned. I mean, no wonder you have no clue what causing Nexus event on the Mentish. Both of you are just swooning over each other, I guess.

Tell me the truth. To the apocalypse, two variants of the same being, especially you, forming this kind of sick, twisted, romantic relationship, that's pure chaos. That could break reality. It's breaking my reality right now. What a incredible seismic narcissist. You fell for yourself. Her name was Sylvie.

Oh, Sylvie. And welcome into the Ringerverse here on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin, co-host of binge mode, head of editorial here at The Ringer, and it is my absolute delight to invite you not only to my time sell, but to join us on the Ringer's Nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. Now before we dive in today, a few quick reminders. Next week is a very busy one on the Ringerverse feed, The Midnight Boys Van Lathen and Charles Holmes, Poup, will be with you on Wednesday with their instant reaction to episode five of Loki. and then I will be with you to chat about the penultimate episode of Loki on Thursday, one day earlier than usual. And that is because the Midnight Boys will be back with you next Friday with their Black Widow instant reaction.

MCU movies are back. Can't wait. I will then be back the following Monday to talk about Black Widow. And then we're back to the Wednesday Friday Loki routine for finale talk. Lots of Marvel right now. Can't wait. Remember, as always to follow the Ringervverse. on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts,

follow us across our social channels and bear in mind our friendly neighborhood spoiler warning. This episode will contain spoilers from Loki's fourth episode, The Nexus event, as well as details from the entire MCU run to date. We're going to get into a little comics canon. So proceed with more caution than Loki did around Lady Siff's knees. Okay? We have a fun and lovely.

loaded pod today later in the episode. I will be chatting with Daniel Chin and Jomea Denneron to answer mailbag questions. But first, joining me today, now that he's finished staring down classic, boastful kid and alligator versions of himself, it is Rolling Stone chief TV critic. God of recap and review mischief. host of the too long didn't watch pod where he and celeb guests watched the first and the last episodes of shows and then try to make sense of everything that happened in between. It is the legend himself.

Alan Seppinwall. Alan, welcome into the ringerverse. Oh, I'm so happy to be here, especially to talk about this episode, Mallory. My God. What an episode of TV. Incredible. I'm delighted to be here with you today just in general to chat. I'm delighted to be here to chat with you about Loki and I am particularly excited to talk

you about this episode of TV because I think that's where I want to start. I'm just as interested in talking about all of the character development, the plot development, as I am how successful this was as an hour of television. And you are, you're an expert TV critic who has better perspective than you won this. So I just want to, I want to start there. Like what made episode for, in your mind, so successful and so exceptional as both an episode of Loki, this first season, of this TV show and as an hour of TV, period. Well, I think the second part you said is kind of the most important thing, which is it works as an hour of TV.

And a lot of what we've had in the streaming era, especially with the previous Marvel shows under Jeff Loeb, like an hour of any of those episodes is not in any way distinguishable from any other hour. It's just, this is what happens next. This is what happens next. This is what happens next. And it's just all very tedious and enervating after a while.

Like Michael Waldron very clearly is like, all right, this is, you know, last week is going to be. our Doctor Who episode. This is going to be, you know, Loki and Sylvie get to know each other. And this is going to be like the episode where everything we've done in the previous three all sort of collides and explodes or in certain cases gets pruned into dust causing me to start screaming, you know, at the top of my lungs. No, no, no, you can't kill Owen Wilson, no, no. So like, it had a, it had a distinct shape to it. It had a point it was trying to make about all of

these characters. And it really built on what had come before. So a lot of the time you have these serialized shows and they just kind of drag and drag and they're long just to be long and then you get the better shows like your Breaking Bads, like your wires where it's like it seems a little slow but there's enough of interest at the beginning

and then you get to this point where everything's on rails and all of a sudden everything that happened before makes sense like oh now I see why they did that I see why they did that and there's so many moments like that throughout the Nexus event. I had a big smile on my face throughout it

except when they started killing people that I liked. Did you believe in that moment that the pruning was real, that we were, that equated to death, that we were done with Mobius, that Owen Wilson in the MCU was out of our lives? There was a part of me that did, just because I feel like we have enough experience over the years

with like very special guest star. The Game of Thrones era of TV. Yeah. It's like, why is this person doing a series? Oh, because he only had to be in three episodes of it, and really only like two and a half, you know? And then Owen Wilson can go. back to, you know, being Owen Wilson and living a charmed life.

But, and I was upset. But at the same time, I thought to myself, well, if he's dead now, at least they got good value out of him. This whole episode with all the confrontations between Mobius and Loki about what makes them tick, whether or not they're really friends, whether or not like Mobius is who he thinks he is, all of that was really good and really fun. So if they had killed him off there, it would have been upsetting, but like an effective death as opposed to a cheap, you know, just going for shock value thing.

Then by the time Loki got pruned, there was a little part of me to thought, maybe they're like doing a passing of the torch here to Sophia Di Martino, but then the mid-credit scene came. I'm like, oh, no, this is better. This is much better. And I guess we should say we're assuming that we're going to see Mobius again because we saw our Loki again post-pruning in that mid-credit stinger. We don't definitively know that.

It is what I believe in part because I am unwilling to accept any alternative. I need Mobius back in my life. I mean, they're, there are scenes together in episodes one and two were such a delight to me. And it's just, once again, the second they're back together, the energy and the chemistry between them is just so crackling. I mean, as it is between Loki and Sylvie, the show is just built on these conversations and these explorations of self-reflection. And through that, the discovery of new connection that I find so delightful. I'm curious if anything about this episode. I mean, you started to talk about this already in terms of pacing and what you're building toward in terms of show structure.

Broadly, did it drastically alter or maybe reaffirm anything that you would already felt about the show to this point? Or did it all feel like a very natural progression of how this had been calculated and paced so far? I mean, I would say like the first two episodes, I enjoyed them while also having some reservations of like, Okay, this is so much fun to see Hiddleston and Owen Wilson bantering together. But my God, like so much exposition, so, so much of it, so many, like, minutes spent on explaining how the TVA works, nexus events, variants, all of that. And I was still enjoying it, but there's a part of me that's like, okay, this had better, like, they had better be laying a foundation for something. And they were. Like, this is obviously them paying off all the stuff that the guys were talking about in the first two episodes.

So in that respect, it did sort of, it took the show up another level in my mind and it felt like, okay, they really know what they're doing here. Yeah, I have loved the season as a whole. I loved episode three that before sunrise, two people explore in a place and each other vibes. Wonderful stuff. And this episode felt like a real payoff for every step along the way. But also, part of why I loved it so much and thought every minute was scintillating, my heart was raising at the end. cried more than once. I won't lie to you, Ellen, is because it sets up now such a thrilling final two episodes and so many big picture questions for everything that is to come in phase

four of the MCU. I think this show is functioning really wonderfully in multiple respects as a character study that allows us to look backward and reassess this time we've already spent with the character and invested in that character. Where we are right now at this kind of fulcrum moment in the MCU and then everything that this might mean, like which Loki are we going to be with moving forward in the MCU. There are a lot of intriguing possibilities. Maybe it's just going to be alligator loki. Who knows?

But because of all of that, because of all of that intrigue, because of the potency of those quiet moments, I wanted to ask you what you think the ultimate upside of this show is, like how good it can really be? Because I've been thinking a lot about something that Michael Waldron told our mutual pal, Joanna Robinson about, you know, why can't this be the best show ever made? Like, why can't this be the greatest show ever? Who says it can't be? And you had a line in your piece on episode four that really struck me. You said that sort of deliberate storytelling is a delicate thing. Do it right and you have something like the wire breaking bad or even the most recent season of For All

Mankind. Now, in many ways, that connects to what you were saying a few minutes ago, right? About structure and that deft hand in terms of unspooling and building a narrative and character development of alike. But it did make me wonder if you think there's a chance that Loki can reach those highs because, I mean, The Wire I'm Breaking Bad or two of the five best shows of all time, right? Yes. That, I mean, that's, that's lofty company. And I think I specifically like clarified, like, I'm not saying Loki is there. It's more like it's doing something like those. And I think that, like, as much as I've been really digging this show so far, and I think, like, at this stage, after this episode,

it's probably my favorite of the three, you know, Kevin Feigy, MCU shows that they've done. I think there is still something of a ceiling because it still has to be a piece of a whole. And so it has, it can't just serve its own master. It's got to serve seven other masters. So it's got to set things up for phase four. It's got to set things up in terms of whichever Loki they want to be part

of things going forward or possibly multiple Loki's. So there are certain decisions that they just can't make that they would if this was a wholly self-contained show. But on the flip side, if it was a wholly self-contained show,

it couldn't play off of everything we knew about Loki the character from all these other movies. So it's, you know, the MCU taketh and the MCU giveeth. I still think it can be really terrific and maybe one of the best of these comic book adaptations overall, though.

I'm starting to think of it not only is the best Disney Plus MCU shows so far, and obviously a lot of how we assess it will ultimately come down to the landing, the finale, as is always the case. Yes. Fairly or otherwise. But it's just maybe one of the best and most interesting MCU installments, period. I'm really eager for the next two episodes.

Can't wait to see Kid Logie in what is clearly the inevitable impending Young Avengers storyline. We're going to circle back in a bit to some of the more plot-centric elements in terms of questions about who's really pulling the strings of the TVA, what is what we saw in the mid-credit scene, Fertel, et cetera, et cetera, the Rivona reveals. I want to talk about love once again for a few minutes here. I'm a big fan of love. Oh, God. I just am so painfully on brand with this stuff, but I can't help it. Another very thematically rich episode where so many of the examinations are entwined with each other. and really compelling to think about and talk about.

Love with another person, self-love and reflection, how you build trust, the nature of an awakening, identity, everything we've talked about so far this season about free will, choice, the capacity for change, all of it, entwined. I want to start with the Loki-Silvey connection. A lot of different parts to hit here. The threat that they posed to the TVA, what that might imply, each of their individual journeys,

but I just have to ask you right away from the jump here. Yeah. Do you ship it? Are you into this? Of course. This is a full storytelling choice. Of course.

I mean, look, fans will ship anything with like too attractive people in them. When one of them is Tom Hiddleston, they will ship it even more. Like I've seen all the Thor, Loki slash stuff over the years, you know, I get it. I totally get it.

But in this case, it's Loki is a narcissist. It's, Mobius, while he's mad and hurt by what he feels Loki did to him, is also not wrong that falling in love with your own variant is like the ultimate Loki move. So to me, like, it makes sense. Hiddleston and Di Martino, like, have scorching chemistry, you know, instantly. I mean, Hedleston does with everybody. That's just, you know, that's his brand. But no, when they were, when they're sitting on those two rocks on Lamentus and talking about, you know, how Loki's are born to lose, but they also.

to survive and they live to fight another day. I'm like, okay, yes, kiss her. You know, just do it. Kiss her. I was 100% on board with that. And I like the fact that, like, their love is the nexus event to end all nexus events. And it's the most threatening thing that the TVA has ever seen. Okay, there's so much to unpack there. So much.

First, before we dive a little more deeply into all those points, I'm curious to talk for just a minute about maybe. the nature of watching a Marvel TV show and the way that the theorizing guides us. Because, listen, never roll out a twist even still. Yes. But it does seem like we are definitively at the point where Sylvie is a Loki variant. Yeah.

And this, oh, is Sylvie actually going to be comics, enchantress? Development is not going to call him. That this is, in classic MCU fashion, a mashup. of various strands of comics canon, but that what they are telling us is the case. And I'm wondering, A, if you believe that fully or if you're still, you know, staying frosty for the prospect of another development.

And again, I will say, like, never roll it out. If a twist came, I wouldn't be shocked. But I ultimately am ready to just fully embrace and accept this and believe that this is true because I think that this is such a thematically rich undertaking, and this is the thematically rich choice. Yeah. For every reason that you just outlined, it is ultimately much more impactful and apt if they are both loki variants, if they are mirrors, but mirrors with ripples,

mirrors with tweaks and differences that stem from the context of their lives, from the choices that they've made, where both because of the narcissistic elements and because of what this bond and relationship ultimately opens up. up about learning about oneself and through that journey of self-discovery, being more ready and able to learn about and feel empathy and express that empathy toward other people. Like, that's what the show is about. I agree. And two things.

One, I agree that it is a much more interesting and thematically apt choice if she's a Loki. Like, I think it's just much lamer. And that's often my response when people start throwing out, like, theories and twists of, like, well, we didn't see this or maybe it's this. And to me in a lot of these cases, it feel like what the show is actually like saying up front feels better and deeper

than other things. And sometimes I'm wrong. Like I remember to go back to Game of Thrones, like when I thought that Aria had like left the hound to die, to me, and everyone's like, no, but the hound's not dead. And I hadn't read the book, so I didn't know the clues there. I'm like, no, it's so much more interesting for Aria's journey if she left him

to die. And then by the time he turns up alive and they reunited. I thought they did enough, like, good stuff with that I was able to let go of it. But I sometimes watch these shows a little bit differently from you. And it's funny, when Joanna was on a couple of weeks ago, she said she has to remind herself sometimes

to try to accept things at face value just in case it's true. That's my default. I'm like, I'm Mr. Face Value. I watch it. Like, if something is just transparently off, like if Edward James Olmos is obviously dead on that season of Dexter,

you know, and it's just a hallucination of Colin Hanks, okay, that's fine. But in most cases, like, I just want to take it for what the show is telling me. Whereas when he was dead as Adama, he was clearly not going to be dead. Got to get a Battlestar reference in wherever we can, you know? So, but like, so then, like, if it turns out to be something else, I can be pleasantly surprised. And sometimes the discourse doesn't allow you to do that. Like, the whole, you know, is Agnes, Agatha Harkness?

Like, that was just so loud, like, obviously, okay, that's, and that made sense to me. and I was watching it through that lens, but when I can, I try to take what the show is giving me and go from there. And, like, obviously, she could still be the entrantras, but this episode in particular

seemed to very strongly be spelling out Loki, not only in the flashback to her being abducted by Ravona and the other Minutemen, but also just, like, the conversations they have and this whole realization that Loki comes to

after he's nude in the balls an infinite number of times by Lady Siff, which is he's a desperately lonely person, who wants attention, he wants approval, and ironically, the ways in which he seeks to do that just drives people further away. So who can be like the better possible mate for him than a version of himself?

Who can understand it? Who will have Loki Luffy's son, ultimately, other than Loki Luffy daughter? Is that how we would say it? Okay, yeah. That's right. So, like, you know, there's really nobody else who could possibly be his,

you know, one true pair. It's got to be her. And I want her to be a loki and not be enchantress or somebody else. Yeah, I'm with you. And like, to be clear, I obviously love and actively participate in the rampant theorizing and think it's a really, you know, fun shared experience. No, there's nothing wrong with that. No, no, no, of course.

Yeah. And my hope with this show is that because of the time we've spent investing in this reality, people will find it really, really, really satisfying and rewarding when we get there. I think the other thing. And like, again, I don't. I don't want to come off as like a total rube. People who make shows say things all the time that are not true. Yes.

But everyone making this show is saying that this is true, like flat out saying it. And not only just saying that Sylvie is not specifically Loki, but is Sylvie, meaning her own person and her own individual who has forged and crafted her own identity, which is, of course, again, also very, very interesting and thematically rich. but that this is a relationship. Like, Marvel.com had a story this week from Rachel Page that had some pretty, I think, clear and direct quotes from key participants. You know, Michael Waldron said, quote, that was one of the cruxes of my pitch for the series

that there was going to be a love story. We went back and forth for a little bit. Like, do we really want to have this guy fall in love with another version of him? is that too crazy. Absolutely iconic. I would have loved to have seen that pitch of meeting unfold. But in a series that, to me, this is the continuation of the quote, is ultimately about self-love, self-reflection, and forgiving yourself. It just felt right that that would be Loki's first real love story. Yeah. Who else could it possibly be? Right. So let's talk about each of their individual moments and journeys and,

and bits of history that surfaced in this episode before we bring it back to the two of them together. What an absolutely agonizing glimpse into Sylvie's history and past. I mean, her story, Kid Sylvie, is so sad seeing her as a child, clearly on Asgard, just alone. Again, that theme of loneliness, right?

And literally, like, we don't get to linger in that, shot for long. I was, you know, taking screenshots and trying to zoom in to see what clues I could uncover. But we don't see anyone else. You know, she's, she's playing with toys. And we get a little, you know, we get a little, a fenerous wolf toy. But it's as much about what we glimpse in that memory and that flashback, seeing her brought into the TVA by Ravona, who was a hunter, A23, which we'll circle back to when we talk about Ravona later. because the hunter role indicates that she was a variant, etc. How does that factor into?

Bad news. From Rivona, Renslayer in this episode, folks. Very tough. But the fear that Sylvie feels when she looks around and sees what's happening to other people inside of the TVA, that quick hand and quick thinking that is so central to who A Loki is. But then the reinforcement and the solidifying for us as viewers, You know, when we heard her say previously, like years, years and years, this planning, look how long she was alone, life on the run, and to, even more than just for us seeing it,

I thought the most, like, impactful part was hearing her talk about it to Loki, because if you think back even just one episode prior, you know, there was that great moment where she thanked him for the tactical advantage because he was offering so much about himself, and she was not because she wasn't ready to. And then here in the face of the end, saying, you know, the universe wants to break free so it manifests chaos. That's obviously like one of the missions of the show to examine that idea and to reject the counter idea

that somebody else should get to maintain order in the face of that, that is not what the show or these characters ultimately believe or will allow to stand, right? Everywhere and every when I went, she says, caused a nexus event. Sent up a smoke flare

because I'm not supposed to exist. Devastating. Like, think about the weight that would have on you growing up and coming to understand this. Oh my God. Devastating. And what was even more gut-wrenching about it

is, again, thinking about how that helps them find common ground. Because even though the circumstances of their existence have been drastically different, in a way, Loki has always felt that too, are Loki, you know, that he was not supposed to exist. Everything back in the original Thor movie with that fucker, the all-father Odin. His resentment, feeling like he didn't belong, didn't really have the love and validation that he needed from his family. And of course, that led him to do terrible things. We don't justify that behavior, but you do have to understand the source of it.

And then Sylvie's saying, and so that's where I grew up, the ends of a thousand worlds, was just so heart-wrenching and crushing. Like, imagine that, like you said, the weight of it. not only of existing in that way and going through every minute of your life like that, but doing it alone with no one else to tell you or help you believe that it was going to be okay. And also just the idea that you can't form attachments because everywhere you go, you're only there

because these people are going to die soon. You can't be anywhere. And that's something that like Thor has talked about in the comics. I think like early in West Coast Avengers, there's a storyline where like Firebird, I think, discovers that she might be immortal and she talks to Thor about it. And he says, like, this was a hard thing for me to adjust to when I started hanging around on

Midgard. Like, eventually everyone I come to care for is going to go. So you've already got that. And then you lay on top of that the fact that she's a fugitive. So, like, she can't make connections with anyone except these kinds of doomed people. And she knows that the universe is out to get her. So the one hand, you've got Loki, who's abandoned by the King of the Frost Giants. taken in by the Allfather who doesn't want him,

you know, has a brother who, like, is resentful of him. Stolen relic, as Loki puts it to Odin and Thor. Yes, yes. Has a bad relationship with his adoptive brother, has a good relationship with his adoptive mother, but basically does not feel like he is wanted anywhere in the universe, anywhere in the nine realms. So that's bad enough.

Then you have her, who at least has lived through some of that, although she seemed pretty happy playing with the Fenris doll, But they take her away and then she is told the universe doesn't want you. Your biological parents didn't want you. Your adoptive father didn't want you. And now the universe doesn't want you. Right.

You know, and you're going to be around death and destruction for however long you're able to exist while constantly being on the run. That's fun. That's a good existence. Cheerful. Cheerful stuff. I'm going to circle back to Fenris and that scene and what that might be. imply about Sylvie's nexus event in a few minutes.

But what you just said, it just segues really nicely into Loki as not just a part of this pairing, this duo, but Loki as an individual. You know, his time cell memory is, of course, not just about getting kicked in the, in the, in the, in the nuts by SIF. It is about what SIF is saying to him. I hope you know you deserve to be alone. That is the punishment, right? And crucially, it is the punishment not just because Loki has to think about the fact that other people believe that to be true about him, which is, of course, one of his great fears.

But he believes it. Of course he believes that that is true. And he voices this. You know, it reminded me a bit of episode one, that really, like, lovely moment where he, fesses up to that weakness and control commentary that he's always putting out into the world actually being a projection of his own approach, which was, on the one hand, a key bit of insight and reflection.

And on the other hand, he's always working through the ploy. Like, he is, you know, loki contains, there are not only a multitude of loki variance, but loki contains multitudes. He's never just doing one thing at once. And that's part of what makes him so interesting. Like, I don't think these things are mutually exclusive. He can be trying to get to the next point on his journey and outsmart or convince someone else while also really evolving in some meaningful way.

So, like, when he says to SIF, I'm a horrible person. I get it. I really am. I can't have your hair because I thought it'd be funny. And it's not. I crave attention because I'm a narcissist. I suppose it's because I'm scared of being alone. Yes, he is trying to get her to stop.

He is trying to break out. But he is also thinking about the fact that this is true and what it means that this would be the memory that he is trapped in a moment where someone is saying that to him on repeat and he is forced to think about that and how that has guided his life. Yeah, and if you look at like,

it reminds me of Ragnarok where again, he's sort of brought low. You know, he's sort of a puppet of the Grandmaster. Then later Thor sticks the, the control thing onto him, and he can just be tased at random whenever it amuses somebody. And, like, that's the moment when he begins the hero turn in the MCU, and, like, they forge an actual, like, relatively happy brotherly relationship all the way up until, you know, he gets choked out by Thanos at the start of Infinity War.

Like, it seems as if Loki, the only way in which he can sort of confront his weaknesses and overcome them is to first be punished in this way or be like, brought low enough that he can't resort on the tricks and the quips and everything else that are his usual stock and trade. Really interesting that you say that because one of the things I was so struck by in the final moments on Lamentus before the TVA arrives, as we suspected they would and pulls Loki and Sylvie out of that apocalypse. First of all, just such a, just such a tender, lovely sequence.

But Loki was not looking for one last trick, like, was not scrambling, was not speechifying. He was sitting in relative quiet, and his primary focus in that moment was to try to comfort another person. And that was huge. Like when Sylvie says in that stretch, do you think that what makes Aloki aloki is the fact that we're destined to lose? I mean, again, key question in terms of the show's themes of free will, nature versus nurture, identity capacity for change. It's a callback to the Mobius line in episode one. You know, it's funny for someone born to rule, you sure you lose a lot. You might even say it's in your nature.

But Loki didn't bristle. He didn't feel like he needed to go into a stump speech about himself and his virtues. He said, no, we may lose sometimes painfully, but we don't die. We survive. And then a couple of lines later, ads, you're amazing. And I just thought this was an incredible moment. Again, like, I'm just the biggest sap in the world. But I really loved this because, like, seeing him see someone.

else clearly and believe in them and try to encourage them feels like such a like on the one hand it's such a small thing just be a human being show somebody empathy and compassion but it was felt like this massive evolution even from within the episodes of TV in this of this season of this show because like there's been that through line of that no I'm the superior loki and I need to prove it to you energy that he really really seemed like he needed to believe was true. Like, it wasn't just a boast. It was something he needed to prove to other people and to himself.

I'm like, yes, I should say, like, that was still present later in the episode after this scene. Like, he has that absolutely hysterical moment where he says he's insulted that Sylvie has more security than he does. And he, you know, when Mobius asks about their plan, he says, be working for her, please. But overall, this was just a really big moment in his character arc. It is, and the thing I have to keep reminding myself is this whole season is taking place, and obviously time is relative when we're dealing with the TVA, but as far as Loki, as far as

Loki is concerned, this is only a couple of days since he tried to conquer Earth with a, like, a lethal alien invasion. For him to go, be able to go from that to this is pretty big. Yeah, and of course, that's like, that's obviously been a big, big point of discussion among the fan base. You know, this isn't Infinity Warlokey, so can we buy how quickly he's gotten to some of these points? And I've always been fine with it for a couple reasons. One, the things that he is experiencing inside of this show, whether it's seeing, you know, Frigga's death, the events of his life on the devs-esque time theater screen, or because again, these conversations and moments that he's having, whether with Mobius or Sylvie, are so deeply oriented around, you know, the nature of his. existence in reality. Like, it's this pressure cooker in a way that has fast forwarded that. But also because even at his fallist, again, as Loki himself has said, no one is ever

purely good or purely evil. Like, I think there's a lot of talk often about in Avengers, like how much we should hold him culpable because on the one hand, obviously, you know, invading New York with the Chitari. Not great. On the other hand, the role, of the mindstone in the scepter, what level of control, was he under an influence, was he under, and that being a factor?

But then you go back even to Thor, and like, he's the bad guy on Thor. He's doing a lot of terrible shit well before we get to the Avengers. So it's always been this push-pull of his own morality and how he thinks about the way that he's pursuing

that affirmation and that sense of self through the things that he does to other people, which of course then gets back to how the TVA is intending for him to behave. I loved, the other thing that I loved so much just as like a fan of TV about that lamentous sequence, like the moment when Sylvie reaches out

and touches Loki's arm and that's what sparks this, as Charles called it on the Midnight Boys, you know that time boner straight up nexus event, right? No delay here. I loved the like specific placement and choice because it's basically the exact same spot where the frost giant touched Loki on his forearm back in Thor, which led him to look down and see, you know,

his blue skin that he didn't get burned the way that he had just heard he would if he had gotten touched. It led to uncovering his true identity and all of the fissures and fallouts that ensued. This moment leads him to not bitter resentment or horror or or a shableness. of trust, but the forging of it and this journey of growth and betterment. And then, you know, even beyond that, you just had this, like, it's a very rich episode for other pop culture, like, shades and illusions and references. We'll get to Last Jedi throne room stuff later. But this rising tidal wave of doom coming toward them as the moon rock is inching ever closer. It made me think of two things. It made me think of Jan and Cassian and Rogue One. It made me think of the doom of Valeria.

and one of my all-time favorite fictional poems, Alan. Because they're looking at each other. They're not looking at this creeping death. They're looking at each other. And it made me think of that poem because, you know, the line is they held each other close and turned their backs upon the end. And I've always loved that idea that, like, if you just have the comfort and love of another person,

even in a moment that is that defined by terror, you can find peace. That's good. And that's a nice pull on the Thor thing. It's been a while since I've watched that once. I forgot about that moment, but that's like some Peggy puts her hand on Don Draper's hand on the desk, madman kind of callback level. That's pretty good. Thanks, man. I love Marvel movies, you know? Just watch them all the time. I also thought that it was really interesting to see how Mobius and Loki talked about Sylvie.

Like, Loki had a little bit of a, you know, middle schooler, like throwing food in the cafeteria because he can't quite convey his feelings, a vibe about him in that conversation. But when Mobius pretended that Sylvie had been pruned and then is like, and again, this is before Mobius and Loki later in their episode, to reach their shared plane of understanding, but he's like, look at your eyes, you like her. And there's this kind of like mocking quality to the exchange. And then that's where we get that, that big line in the episode from Mobius, two variants of the same being, especially you, forming this kind of sick, twisted, romantic relationship. That's pure chaos. That could break reality. It's breaking my reality right now. What an incredible seismic narcissist you fell for yourself. So that gets us back to the question from a few minutes ago, is this narcissism? Is this?

self-love in a very like poetic way? Is it both? I think it can be both. I think two things can be true. I think there's a degree to which no one will ever understand each of them more than the other one does. And these happen to be two Loki variants who are roughly the same age, you know, very attractive.

And obviously like they're they're both gender fluid and bisexual. So they can sort of, they can go in a lot of options, but certainly as like as a pairing. it's much easier to see, like, the two of them getting hot for each other than say, like, if classic Loki was the variant we had been watching up until now, and he's sitting opposite Richard E. Grant on a rock, on Lamentus, while waiting for the planet to crash into them. It's just sort of everything is set up perfectly.

But I really do think that there's something like they see so much in each other that none of the rest of the world gets. So it's good. I love the, if you love me, Brenda Lee credits song usage, I think, in general. the musical selection and the scoring of this show have been exceptional. There were some great composer score moments. Oh, I got a question three related to that. Do you have a theory as to why certain episodes play the Marvel Studios fanfare

and certain other ones will play a song during those title cards? Oh, what an interesting question. I do not have a theory. I guess my theory would be it's because they're going for whatever they think is going to strike the right vibe. Do you think it's a clue? I don't know. I'm just like it's, I couldn't help but notice, like the first and the third used a song,

second and fourth used just the familiar score. And so I'm just wondering. I don't have a theory myself yet. I always love to think about the song lyrics that play over when we do get a needle drop. You know, like if you love me, really love me, let it happen in this case. It's great stuff. Perfect. When it lasts our life on Earth is through, I will share eternity with you.

There you go. Maybe they will. For me, the narcissist question is, I'm with you. It not only can be both, it is, like, that Mobius line felt like a dig, right? But it is, it is true. I think it's true in a way that ultimately is quite powerful. Like, there's nothing more fitting for a character like Loki than falling in love with himself. But that is not purely narcissistic. It is true to the character in that way, but

ultimately it's about Loki and Sylvie too, learning to love themselves so that they can be better people and how better to do that than this. Like I was thinking back to the love as a dagger exchange from episode three. Does love have to be a dagger for the people who are experiencing it who feel it? Maybe it can be a dagger that they forged together. And then wheeled against the TVA. That would certainly fit in with the Philip Pullman, his dark materials vibes of all of this, with the mysterious timekeepers and everything

that they're trying to maintain from the perspective of order and control. Like, beings who make them feel unworthy, whether it's unworthy of love, unworthy of acceptance, unworthy of the ability to make their own choices in a world that someone else wants to say is about destiny that, you know, to go back to the devs thing, puts them on their tram lines, the ones that they control.

You know, Loki, like, loving himself, to me, does not undercut the message of learning to love other people and be empathetic at all because Loki actually needs to feel that self-love and believe that he's worthy of more first before he can do that for other people. Like, his need for affirmation had calcified so, severely that it had just turned really, really toxic and noxious. And, you know, now he's, he's healing, man. He's learning. Like, who are you more likely to feel sorry for than yourself, first of all? If we want to get back to the narcissistic lens, right? Like, regardless of that initial impetus, in learning about yourself in that way, you can then learn about other people. And plus,

like we were talking about earlier, it's not just, it is a mirror, but it's not a pure mirror. It's a mirror with distinctions that shows you something true to who you are and about yourself, but also something different that gives you that new perspective. So I think that that simultaneous familiarity and distinction is quite a brew. I'm into it. I ship it. No, it's good. And love is a dagger.

And on the one hand, it makes him vulnerable. Like, you see how upset he is when Mobius lies about Sylvie being pruned. But on the other hand, it's making the... them stronger. Look at what they are able to do together versus like just their, their love alone is threatening the TVA. And then when they come back to those offices and they start telling people, oh, you're really a variant. Like, they bring the whole curtain crashing down very quickly once it's two of them together. Yes. So why is the Loki Sylvie Bond in particular such a threat to the TVA? Like their love sparked or their connection sparked.

that nexus event powerful enough to be detected. In the one place, we should remember that it shouldn't be detected. Like, that's the whole crux of the hideout in an apocalypse, Sylvie existence. They can't find you there, right? But they do because it was that forceful. You know, Mobius says, like, that's not someone stepping on the wrong leaf. Mobius NB15, say that they've never seen anything like it. And later, when Mobius is talking to Loki and asking if he believes that he really deserves to be alone, he says the nexus event the two of you caused, I think whatever that connection is

can bring down this whole damn place so we better understand. And in that same Marvel.com piece that I mentioned earlier, Waldron said, these are two beings of pure chaos that are the same person falling in love with one another. That's a straight up and down branch

and exactly the sort of thing that would terrify the TVA. And there are a few different reasons that we can consider for why that might be true. like they are rebelling against and actively defying the TVA mandated certainty that they have to lose, that they have to be alone. What we have heard over and over again throughout the season about the nature of what a Loki's existence is supposed to be like.

So the very fact that they are experiencing this together at all, this bond, this purpose, is a threat to TVA control, to the maintenance of the TVA. sacred timeline and whatever that timeline is ultimately there to lead to or ensure. And then there's this added, like, Loki variant theorizing the sparks. We're going to talk about this a little bit more later in the episode. But does this indicate in some way maybe that a Loki is ultimately behind all of this, which is one of, I'd say, the leading theories along with Kang, Rivona, Miss Minutes, a few other possibilities.

Like, maybe this does support a Loki-centric feature. because it's not just the power of their connection violating TVA order. It is literally the fact that it is them, that it is their connection and how the coming together of multiple lokies would threaten perhaps another Loki who is still driven by the need to be the superior Loki and recognize that other lokies could be a threat. I think that it's an interesting possibility to consider. And we know that Loki was trying. or we can assume that Loki was trying to tell Solvi about this

and also probably how he felt right before he got pruned. Just like the mountain and the viper, they just left Rvona sitting there. Like, you can't do it. You got to finish the job, folks. Brutal, brutal. I definitely think that it lends itself to the idea that maybe a Loki is pulling the strings.

But also, I feel like part of it is just simply the idea of two variants, like variants are not supposed to come together at all. and they are sure as hell not supposed to fall in love. Like the whole mission of the TVA is to like keep the timeline clean and orderly. Anytime a variant goes too far off the main branch, they're gone. And they never really cross paths. And even on the rare occasions when they might, and we haven't seen a whole lot of time travel,

you know, outside of like the time heist and end game. There's not a ton of it in the MCU so far. But when we see it, it does not involve a character like Loki, who is going to fall in love with himself. You know, like if Steve Rogers, if you believe that Steve goes into a separate timeline at the end of end game, and Steve Rogers were to somehow run into the other Steve Rogers,

they're not going to hook up. That's just not have Steve rolls. He is not like looking for another version of himself. He's looking for someone to compliment him. Yes, he just wants to dance with Peggy. Exactly. So Steve potentially dancing with a variant Peggy, if you believe he went to a different timeline,

and like it depends basically on which member of the creative team of endgame you asked that question about. I know. But like that is not going to threaten the nature of the TVA and whoever is behind the timekeepers because it's like he's not going to fall in love of himself.

This is bad. This is like, I'm trying to remember there's like a whole Star Trek thing about, no, it wasn't Star Trek, it's some time travel thing. We're like, time cop, it's fucking time cop. You know, where Ron Silver touches Ron Silver. That's what it.

is. And like they melt. It's like sometimes in the time travel story, you can't have two people come together because it's bad for the universe. In this case, it's just like the love at all, not a good thing. Right. And also, you know, we have a lot to learn about the timelines and the multiverse and the MCU, but in theory, these are beings who would never cross paths or interact outside of this circumstance that is designed to contain and control them. I loved, again, just like so many little callbacks in this episode. I love that the Loki being pruned from behind the wand stabbing him in the back,

a callback to how Loki stabbed Colson in the back, makes you think again about how close we are to moments like that, but also how far he's come. I want to ask you because we're talking about Nexus events and what sparks them and what they mean and how they threaten the TVA. Do you have a theory for what Kid Sylvie's Nexus event was? I don't know. I mean, she's

She's playing with a Fenris doll. And obviously, like, if you go back to your Norse mythology, Loki causes Ragnarok. That's his whole role. So he's in the Norse mythology before he becomes, you know, a Marvel comics character. You know, he loses at times, but he also causes trouble. And in the end, he brings the whole thing crashing down. That is his destiny.

That is his role. That is his fate. You know, then Stanley and Jack Kirby get their hands on, you know, this public domain character as they're treating him. and suddenly he is just there as a punching bag, you know, for their handsome blonde hero. So, I mean, maybe there's something about the idea of, like, Sylvie, Sylvie was going to cause a Ragnarok

that would have been different from what we see in the Taika Waititi movie. I don't know. That's about the best I've got. What about you? That's interesting. You know, I was thinking about Ragnarok, too, because I liked the idea of something from Sylvie's past connecting to the ultimate I'm hiding out in Doomsday's plot.

just in that again it's quick we don't get to see much but in that in that wide shot we get of asgard it doesn't look like ragnerock has unfolded yet that surter has because it's done his worst i will say that like even little things like there's definitely a bridge was it the bifross was it the rainbow bridge i couldn't see that pop of color and that vibrancy maybe it was just too far away though i don't know but if we think about what sylvie is saying again the fact that she has alone. This is a theory that I've heard. I heard Joanna and Anthony talked about some still watching. I've seen this pop up

in a couple of places. I'm intrigued by this and I wanted to see what you thought about it. Hit me. Sylvie is talking about Valkyrie defeating the dragon and saving Asgard when Hunter A23, Revonneuranslire,

arrives to take her. Dragon swoops towards the palace that Valky flies over and defeats the dragon and saves Asgard. There's our variant. On the authority of the timekeepers, I hereby arrest you for crimes against the sacred timeline. Reset it. So the theory that the Stoloccian gang posed was basically is the nexus event that Sylvie wants to be good.

That Sylvie wants to be a hero, that she's rooting for the hero when Loki's, based on, again, this would all be through the lens of what the TVA is trying to insist exist. Yes. Remember back in episode one, what we hear. You weren't born to be king, Loki. You were born to cause pain and suffering and death. That's how it was. That's how it will be. Also, others can achieve the best versions of themselves. What if whoever is control needs that to be true? And so a Loki, Sylvia, otherwise, rebelling against that in the natural course of life was not something that they could. abide. Now, of course, in that quote, like, we should remember, that's not how Mobius actually feels as he calls back to in this episode when he's encouraging Loki to be good, you know, in case anyone ever told you otherwise. And I think, again, that also kind of ties into that larger theory that is gaining a lot of momentum across the internet of whether the pruned Loki's are a threat specifically, more so even than other variants because of the role that they need to enact.

You know, we've heard, we heard Mobius say earlier about, oh, more Loki variants come through here than any other kind, right? So, then you could say, well, are Loki? So see, just every, some branch timelines within branched timelines just for everything we talk about here. Are Loki, you could say? Yes. Moving toward in the Infinity Saga, that in infinity war death, infinity war redemption arc, didn't all the steps along the way say, I want to be a hero. I'm going to be good. Like, not, that was not the case, right?

So then how would something like that and that reality fit in? And why does this Loki when he branches off after picking up the test act in 2012 pose a threat? But again, then if you think back to the earlier comments about how the Avengers were supposed to do what they did, like what fits into, and I don't believe that the sacred timeline is a thing that should or is supposed to exist. It's the thing that the eventual man or person or being behind the curtain needs to exist for some reason. So maybe they needed R. Loki to remain on that timeline because whatever was ultimately going to unfold with the Infinity Stones and Thanos was necessary for their end. One in 14 million, right? That's right. My guy Doc Strange just cruising through the future with the time stone.

It could all fit. It could all fit together still. That's an interesting idea, though, because it's something you see a lot in the comics, where you have villains, because they've been around for so long now, a lot of these characters, they will go through periods where someone decides, okay, I'm going to reform. Sandman was an Avenger for a little while. Like, I think he was a reserved member, but Sandman becomes a hero. Lots of villains have become heroes. And then at a certain point, there's some writer or some editor who says, no, they are a villain. We need them to be a villain, and it gets undone. Loki becomes Kid Loki. Kid Loki is nice. And at a certain point, like, no, kid, is really just the, like, has been pushed out by the evil Loki, et cetera. It always happens. It's kind of, it's the nature of the beast. These characters, because they are part of this ongoing saga, are allowed to change only so much. And then eventually they get rubber band and snap back to what they had to be before.

And so that's an interesting idea, the idea that, like, Sylvie would have wanted to be a hero. And the universe just doesn't have in that because we need our loki's to be little stinkers. Yeah. love that. And so, like, rebelling against that would be such a fascinating story to tell. This episode is brought to by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those WeatherTech seat protectors.

So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. you don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. Speaking of rebelling against the existence, someone is trying to force you to play out. Spent a minute or two here on our guy, Mobius. And the rekindling of that crackling bond with Loki, what an episode for our two, our two guys here.

It's funny. I was really into them in the first two episodes. and then Loki and Sylvie were so great in the third episode, and that episode was so focused, and I found more satisfying as a result. I'm like, okay, obviously I miss Mobius, but this is working well. And then the second Owen Wilson walks back on screen, like, Mobius, yes, God damn it.

Like, literally instantly, because, I mean, one of the first, one of the first exchanges that they share in this episode is, like, an all-timer. You know what occurred to me? You're not really the god of mischief. Oh, here it comes. The foxy-dopee insult from the foxy dope. What am I? The god of self-sabotageer, the god of backstabbing.

He's kind of an asshole. And a bad friend. Yeah, chew on that for a little bit. Beautiful. So good. You're saying this to a god. Like that's, again, it's all about bringing him low and making him throw off all of the pretensions and all of the protections and self-image that he built around himself.

He's just an asshole. a bad friend. Loved it so much. And Loki did seem wounded by that, actually. How did the shared trust that they had to quickly re-forge and Mobius's awakening in general through what he learned about C-20, his conversations with Rvona, his conversations with Loki, B-15, et cetera. How did that all work for you inside an episode where so much was happening?

So satisfying. Like my default in shows is. On the one hand, I understand that conflict is necessary for drama. You need conflict. But the other hand, I just want people to get along. I want people to be friends. There's so many, like, I don't know if you watched hacks, but there's something that happened at the end of this.

First season hacks. I'm like, no, don't do this. Just let them be friends. I know. Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. So with this, it was very much, like, I understand why he's mistrustful of him. I really want them to be working together.

And so the second that Loki, like, he, Loki started to get through to him, and he swapped the 10 pads and all of that and figured it. I'm like, yes, this is what I want. This is exactly what I want. And so, of course, as soon as the show gives it to me, Mobius gets pruned and I, you know,

start shaking my fist at the heavens. I was really happy with how that went up until he died. It was great. I wonder when they'll be back together again. I consider it a strong, I mean, who knows, but I consider it a strong possibility that, like, all of the next episode could be said in this limbo-like existence with just pruned loki's and other.

variants and who knows if we'll see if we'll see Mobius again. But yeah, like to to to that trust point, you know, if you think back to episode one in their conversation about trust, not big on trust, are you? What did Loki say? Like trust us for children and dogs. And to see him forge that with both Mobius and Sylvie in this episode was really cool. And I, I think that like, Mobyus, you know, we have expected that there would be some development of this nature, right? And Loki helps him get there, but Mobyus does a lot of it on his own too. And that balance felt, I think, true to, again, the overall focus of the show where those things have to run in parallel course. You have to be asking yourself these questions and then be open-minded when other people are trying to help you move forward.

Like he's already primed from the way that that C-20 news and the conversation with Rvona, just did not sit right with him. And then when Loki first says to him that the TVA is lying to him, you can see that it takes root, but he also still thinks that Loki is basically trying to trick him because he's hurt.

He's hurt by Loki and doesn't want to be made a fool once again. And, you know, like when he said to Loki, yeah, I guess you don't do partners when they're discussing Sylvie, you know that he's just speaking about himself. And I loved that moment shortly after that when Loki says him, it was a means to an end.

Mobius, welcome to the real world down there. We're awful to each other to get what we want. And Mobius said, now I've got to have a prince tell me how the real world works. Like, again, iconic. But illuminating from both of their perspectives, like, this is how Loki has thought life needed to go and made his choices accordingly for a long time. And again, that's not an excuse for his behavior, but an acknowledgement of how he proceeded through the day to day. And then, like, when Mobius called Sylvie, his terrorist girlfriend, and then your female self, you have some demented crush on.

And Loki loses his patience and he screams just the truth, right? You're all variants. Tells him everything. Mobius has that moment of just, I thought, like, agonizing silence where even though he is not quite ready to put his faith in Loki again and says, you know, nice try. That was good. You two, what a pair. Gosh, unbelievable. Wherever you go, it's just death, destruction. The literal ends of world is trying to wound him. You know that he knows that that's true. And it takes the final conversation with Rivona, the temp pad switch, watching the debrief from C20 to, and then the time cell conversation with Loki to really make the jump. But he's been ready. And I thought that this was cool because he doesn't have a moment like C20 had or like, B-15 has. You know, we see this, like, wider TVA awakening unfolding. You know, we get to witness through Mobeus looking at the video, what C-20 says in her debrief.

Like, I had a whole life devastating. We see when B-15 springs Sylvie takes her back to Rock's card and says, show me, like, another hardcore Blade Runner reference here, literal, like, tears in the rain moment, right? She says, I was happy. And it is just so sad. Mobius doesn't literally see his memories, but that was what was so amazing

is that he didn't need to. You know, the emotion that poured through in his challenge to Rivona about the jet skis and the life that he would have lived that he knew he lived, had accepted that he lived, I thought especially powerful given the prior conversations between Mobius and Loki about it's real because you believe it's real.

Yeah, you don't keep the JetSkey magazine on your desk. If there's not some part of you, maybe buried deep, that, like, understands that this was a part of the life that has been stolen from you. And so when Loki comes back, he's mad at him for a few reasons. One, he feels betrayed. Two, I think he's, like, jealous, not, like, in a romantic way, but definitely in A, I thought we were buddies, I thought we were partners, I thought we trusted each other.

And here you betrayed me. And now your partners and buddies and trusting. with Sylvie. I don't like that at all. And then on top of that, the idea that, like, he's at least comforted himself with this fairy tale of,

I was created by the timekeepers. I have a job to do. It's sometimes unpleasant. But one day, we will prune the sacred timeline to perfect shape, and then we will all go and live in eternity at the end of it

and be happy. So to then be, like, told, no, all of that's bullshit, your bullshit, you know, they've been, they've done bad things to you, and they've stolen your life from you. Like, that's a hard thing for him to accept,

even though he very obviously knows it's right from the moment that Loki says it to him. That's really interesting because the belief in the TVA lie is, in a way, faith. Right? What is faith ultimately? Yes. It is believing in what you cannot see. And what Mobius ultimately displays is faith as well.

Because again, he didn't get to actually have that enchantment and that quite literal awakening, but he still has the faith that he is forged, not through an edict passed down, but through these very genuine bonds and breakthroughs with other people. Now, what makes it particularly even more, even more emotional is that one of the people he thought he had that bond with was Ravona. You want to talk about Ravona for a couple minutes? It's just the worst. We can talk about it. Yeah. Incredible performance, though. Incredible performance. All the acting on this show is so good.

I've always loved Goo-goo, and she's so good in this. Amazing. Lying about C-20 to Mobius from the start, you know, the decline was steeper after that. This, like, talking about how she lost her mind. Made me think of the old, you're a talented liar, Thorline, to Loki. Like, Ravona's a talented liar, too, actually. won't let Mobius interview Sylvie. If you could go anywhere, any time, where would it be?

Question that she asked Mobius and is really harping on inquiry in her office. How did you read that? Did that play to you like it was like a sick test to see if he needed to be pruned, to see if he was still believing the lie? I don't know. I mean, because at the time, it was obviously she was full of shit when she's telling him the story about C20. Like, I literally, and I'm looking at my notes right now,

and it's all caps. This sounds like bullshit. And of course, we see her in the video later, yeah. Yes, yes, yes. But I still was not necessarily, like, fully on board with the idea of how many strings she was pulling here. And thus, I didn't think about it at the time of, like, oh, she's challenging him.

I think it's just her, like, trying to, I think she did like him. I think that she did think of them as friends, even though she's manipulating them. But I also think she's just sort of trying to keep him happy, you know, enjoy a little bit of this, as she can tell, the things are spiraling out of control. I'm really torn on this. I can't make up my mind because I agree with you

that the connection seemed genuine. And again, I guess it's maybe of a piece with much of what we said today where more than one thing can be true at once. Maybe she did feel that connection and want to maintain it for as long as possible. And then at some point, the mission sets in. He's a liability. He's got to go. Right.

Like, there was also that moment where she tells him, oh, you're, you know, the timekeepers want to oversee the variance pruning personally, and they want you there looking back, thinking, well, does that mean that she had decided to prune him even before eventually actually calling for his pruning? Because it was suspicious? Or was that a welcoming him into the fold? Who knows? I suspect it's more the former than the latter when you put it that way, you know?

Because it's because those timekeepers, and we'll tell you. talk about that in a minute, are so just transparently fake that, like, you really can't put somebody as sharp as Mobius in a room with them without it falling apart in about two seconds. Yeah, we're going to talk in a few minutes about whether we think, I mean, obviously, Rivona is bad. That's clear. But how bad? Is she the big bad?

Is she partnered or working for or with another eventual to stick with all of the Wizard of Oz, you know, man behind the curtain imagery character who will reveal in time? I want to say, though, that whatever the ultimate outcome ends up being, we should not lose sight of the fact that Ramona Renslayer did some deeply sinister shit in this episode, even in addition to the overtly sinister acts of eliminating C20, of pruning Mobius. Like two things in particular really stood out to me. Yeah, I got a big question. about one of those, but I want to hear what the other one is.

Go. One of them is what we were just talking about, which is just using her bond with Mobius to manipulate him, which is a betrayal. Like she says to him, you've seen all of existence, same as me, so you know friendship like ours is uncommon and worth fighting for. And if we think again about what one of the missions of the show is, and we view it through the lens of how characters actually getting to the point where they can believe something like that is true is part of their job. journey toward their version of apotheosis. And somebody using that as a leverage point to control somebody else is inside of the language and philosophy of the show, like a particularly

despicable thing to do to somebody else. Like maybe she does care about him, but regardless, this is, this is an act of cruelty saying that to him. Yes. It is not comfort. No, but at the same time, it also, like, you've talked about all, like, the, fascist imagery throughout the TVA. Like, this is a fascist organization, like, order above all else, its plan above all else. And part of how you become fascist in the first place is you consider yourself so goddamn special that you should be allowed to rule and everybody should have to, like, fit into your conception of how the world should work.

So when she says, like, friendships like ours do not come along very often through time and space, like the arrogance of that statement is so perfectly, like, within everything else that the TVA does. Yeah, her saying that did not make me feel good in any way, shape, or form. I was like, okay, this is a bad person right here who would say something like that. Oh, my God. What a great point. You're completely right.

The other moment, of course, was the elevator sequence. Okay. Oh, okay. Here's my question. Here's my question for you, Mallory. Okay. When she tells, like, Sylvie, that she does not remember what her nexus moment is. Is she telling the truth?

And that's awful, or is she just trying to stick the knife in? And she really does know, but she knows how badly it's going to hurt Sylvie for her to say otherwise. This is the question. I have my answer. And then I have an answer that amounts to it doesn't matter. And here's why. I think that she does remember. and that in fact she has to remember because her journey from hunter.

And again, what we know about the TVA, we can infer that by being there as a hunter, she was a variant at one point, right? Moving up to judge the role that she is in now, the function that she serves now, she's the one who lost Sylvie. She's the one who let Sylvie get away. This is the moment that has defined so much of the existence and mission of the TVA and whoever is actually, whoever created it and is actually controlling it. You don't forget the thing that led you there.

You just don't. Now, if she has, I think that that actually would be believable despite everything I just said. And I'm in that former camp, but I could buy it because it would speak to much of what you just said. actually, that hubris. And the fact that you could dedicate yourself so fully to undoing someone else and then not even like remember why. Like this made me think of two moments, one inside of the MCU and one outside of it. Of course, it made me think of our guy Don Draper right away, right?

And the elevator, right down to the fact that they're in an elevator when he tells- I don't think of you at all. When he tells Port Ginsburg, I don't think of you at all, one of the best moments of TV history. Like this was an I don't think of you at all moment. And that is so savage and so wounding to the person on the receiving end of it. Like, what could make you feel worse than the fact that the thing you think about all the time? The thing that is like a defining, orienting variable in your life is irrelevant to the other person. It is such diminishing feeling.

But again, because of the role Sylvie occupies in Ravona's life and the TVAs existence, I just have a hard time believing that is true. The other thing it made me think of was actually Iron Man 3. It made me think of Killian and Tony Stark because, you know, that movie opens with the whole, we create our own demons monologue and voiceover from Tony and the idea that, and this is, that theme is, of course, present across the MCU, but specifically in that case, you know, if you think of the moment on the roof with Killian and Tony, and this thing that Tony's like just moving on, you know, to the next sexual encounter he's going to have, the next

thing he has to do. This is not a thing for him. This is not a factor in his day at all until it becomes something he cannot ignore for the sake of his life in the world, whereas it is the orienting principle around which Killian's entire existence spawns. So it made me think of that as well. Did you watch the Friends reunion? You know, I didn't.

Okay, so there's a bit of Friends reunion early on. They're all sort of wandering around the apartment set. And Matt LeBlanc, he gets very excited when he sees the bowl of fruit on Monica's kitchen table. And he goes on this, and this is before Courtney Cox is there, because they're arriving like one at a time. And he's telling Schwimmer and Lisa Kudrow basically like this, this in intense detail, the story of how Courtney would like write her lines on the fruit or hide it in the fruit bowl. so if she was struggling with dialogue, she could always glance down there in a scene. And so one time to prank her,

he, like, stole all of that and got rid of it. And, like, and just how brutal it was. And it sounds like one of the triumphant, like, pranks and one of his strongest memories from his entire time of being Joey Tribiani. And a few minutes later, Courtney Cox comes in. She hugs everybody, they do their thing. And eventually she wanders over the table.

And LeBlanc says, remember that time when I, like, stole the stuff? And it's clear she has no idea what he's talking about. Incredible. It's like, but she's like being friendly about it's like, well, why would someone do that? That sounds so mean. And it's like, for him, it's everything for her. It's like, eh, you know.

That's amazing. I'm going to have to, I'm going to have to go check that out. But like, yeah, exactly. You know, why did you bring me in? What does it matter? It was enough to take my life away from me lead to all of this must have been something important. Like, it was enough to take my life. life away from me. And the person you're saying that too has the fucking gall, whether it is true or

either for it to be true or to tell you. Yes. I don't remember. Because here's the thing, and you're right, like, this is the defining moment of her career. And for her to even be able to overcome this massive screw up and become a judge, she had to pull some chicanery there. But regardless, she's going to know, like, as Sylvie keeps causing more, more and more trouble for the TVA. Like that file is something that's going to be perused and perused over and over again, looking for clues as to how to find this person. So Ravona has to know at some level.

And yet she is still choosing to twist the knife in this way. Brutal. She's bad. Not nice. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable Internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support.

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Space lizards? Time keepers. Throne room sequence, androids, a front, overt Wizard of Oz vibes, who is actually behind the curtain. Even just saying the man behind the curtain makes me think of the lost episode, the man behind the curtain,

which of course is about Ben who at the time we think is the man behind the curtain, but of course, one of the primary stories on Lost is that he spends so much of his time trying to reach the man

behind the curtain. So that makes me think here like not only who is it really, but when will we get there? You know, we have two episodes to go. Like, is this something we're going to find out in this season of TV?

I feel like we have to, because this definitely seems to me more than like Wanda Vision. This seems like a show where I could imagine them doing a second season of it. At some point, but we've got, you know, Dr. Strange, we've got Spider-Man. We've got all of Phase 4 coming out, and we know, like, the multiverse in some way is going to be a part of that. And this sure seems to be setting that up. So, like, some stuff really has to go down in these last two episodes. in service of the movies. And part of that,

like, you've got to know who's doing this and why, and then what impact it's going to have on these other films. I have to imagine. Maybe it's a cliffhanger, but is Dr. Strange really going to, like, it's already going to have to incorporate Wanda into it. Is it really going to have time to be,

like, doing exposition for, I mean, there's history in the comics of this sometimes where, like, a book gets canceled, and then the plow, a dangling plot line has to be resolved in another, like, book altogether.

But this is not that. Like, they're planning this stuff out in advance. I feel like you got to give the people some answers here. Yeah, I'm with you. I think even if it's the very end, like a glimpse, just so that we know, even if it just spawns a million more questions right away about what it means or how it will come into play,

I think we'll get it at the very, very end of the finale. Before we go through some of the possibilities, some of the leading contenders. Yes. How did you like the Last Jedi throne room? vibes of this entire sequence with our little Androids. I was very happy with it. Obviously, it's not like on the scale of, you know, what Ryan Johnson was able to do with more money, but also just the ability to use more extras.

Like this episode more than most, I think was very palpable in terms of how COVID, like the TVA should be this really bustling place. And clearly they can't do that because there's only so many people you can have on the set and have it be safe. You know, so I feel like there would have been a lot. more than like two or three minute men there fighting Loki and Sylvie, but like because that's what they could do, that's what they could do. It's still a very fun and very well choreographed fight scene and like when they're back to back facing all the men and men, I 100% said, you know,

it's last Jedi. I was very happy with that. It's well executed. And it goes so quickly that I actually had to go back and watch it a second time because I was like, wait, did B-15 get killed? What happened to B-15? And no, she just gets knocked out early so that it can be our two heroes, you know, on their jam together. Yeah, I love that sequence in The Last Jedi. So it was, it was pretty fun to see those parallels and feel that energy. Like, as you said, I mean, the two central fingers standing back to back in this circle of foes, of course, just the actual throne room setting, the blade tossing.

And also, like, the timekeepers are basically snoked, their misdirection. Exactly. You think this is the big bad and they're nothing. Yes, you slice off the head of the middle timekeeper and see that it's just full of wiring inside. We slice Snoke in half. Neither these three timekeepers nor Snoke ended up being the ultimate puppeteer. I will say quickly that I'm glad that we got that reveal, just like I'm glad we saw Loki

kicking it in Pruneville. Because I don't think it would have been. been as fulfilling if those mysteries, like, if we had seen those Androys and it's like, wait a minute, is this supposed to be legit? Like, it was so overly. And they do certainly, again, the King aesthetic is palpable. But beyond that, it's like, this isn't, this is not, this is not going to be it, right? And I was glad that very quickly that was clear. But also, like, death fakeouts are a very hard thing to, like, drag out. You know, you live through it with John Snow. Like, they had so many months to like try, keep lying about that.

Still live and throw it with John Snow in the books, Alan. George, I believe in you. Yes. I'm just saying, like, so if this was a binge show, if they were releasing them all at once, you could have ended the episode without that scene. But because there's going to be a week in between for people to theorize and speculate and all of that, you don't want the conversation to be entirely people like, oh, this show's full of shit.

Like, stop messing with us. He's obviously alive. And instead, you establish, yes, he's alive. We're not screwing with you. But also, oh, here's these delightful variants. And you can talk about that. Instead, it's understanding how the conversation is going to go. And so not keeping us dangling is so much better than just having us get annoyed.

Yeah, I totally agree. Okay. Who is pulling the strings? Loki asks the question. Okay. So, you know, Loki and Sylvia are lamenting this development. Like, it never ends. who actually created the TVA, what is going on here?

I'm going to throw out a few leading contenders for you and then we'll quickly run through them. I'm curious if you have a... I've got one from off the board afterwards. Oh, phenomenal. Okay, I'm excited. All right. Okay.

Rivona, Kang, Miss Minutes, A-Loki, Val. Those are the five that I want to run through. Okay. We'll take them one by one. Do you want to throw out your wild card now or at the end? It's only a semi wild card in that he is himself a variant, but it could certainly be a mortis, who is the variant Kang and who in the comics, again, everything that I talk about ultimately goes back to West Coast Avengers.

Like in a story arc there is working for the timekeepers. So. I think a mortis is, I'm lumping that in with Kang and any potential Kang variant, but especially given the timekeeper connection. And then also if we think about the Amortis comic canon, the Wanda connections, you know, Scarlet Witch connections and how that might play out in future stories, that seems actually really, really likely to me.

Let's just start there. We'll get to Rvona next. King, Amortis. I don't think it's Kang, just because I feel like we've been down this road too often already with the other shows where you keep waiting for them to do the thing that is explicitly about like, Mr. Fantastic is not going to show up.

Mephisto is not going to show up. Like all these other things are not. Quicksilvers, Ralph Boner. Yes, exactly. Like, don't get too far ahead of yourselves, fan boys and fan girls here. Like, yes, Kang is coming. I love it.

I don't think Kang is coming here. I just think it's too complicated. It's too much of a lift, both for this show and then for the Ant-Man movie. Because, like, while you assume that a lot of people are watching all of this, a movie is still a delicate enough thing. and it gets back to the whole thing

about why Colson never reappeared in the MCU movies. Like, it would have been so easy to have Colson on the, you know, in Age of Ultron when the ship comes back and they didn't do it

and they've never mentioned it since. And part of it is just because it's, you then, you're in the middle of this story and you've got to stop and, like, do the comic book footnote of, to know more about this, watch all six episodes of Loki streaming now on Disney Plus.

It's too much of a headache. I don't think. that they're going to want to do that. So that's why I think it's probably not Kang, even though Kang has history. But the other thing about Kang is, and this is what separates him from a mortis, is Kang is a time traveler,

but he uses time travel to be a warrior. Kang is a warrior and a conqueror. He is not ultimately interested in the time stream itself, except as a tool, whereas Amortis's bag is more, I am in charge of the time stream, I control all of these different alternate realities. I can look at this. I can look at that. I can prune things that don't work.

You know, I can eliminate the reality where Abraham Lincoln like kills John Wilkes Booth. Like, I don't want that. So that's, that's an amorous game, much more than it is a Kang game. So what the TVA has been doing does not really seem like a Kang kind of move. So that is why I'm anti-Kang as a channel. Interesting. Okay. I mean, I guess there could still be just yet another version of the MCU combining or adapting some aspect of the comics canon. I have welcomed another theory into my heart this week, but I think King is still my number one draft pick here because it's one of those things where I agree with what you're saying. And I think a lot of people have made this point about like, are we really going to see Jonathan

Majors as Kang at the end of this show when that's coming. in quantum mania. I don't know. I guess I'm like, why not? And I rationally understand every very reasonable answer to that that you just, that you just outlined. But at some point, I don't know, like I'm loving the Disney Plus experience. It's not like they need to do anything, anything else, really. But Disney Plus is so clearly central to their plans.

Like, why not connect that fully to the movies? I think that the fact that there are these like playgrounds and opportunities for us to spend more time with characters and in relationships and in aspects of the world that the movies like definitionally cannot support is a good enough reason

for all of these shows to exist and actually super fulfilling as a viewer. But if in a stinger in the finale, we saw Kang, I would be like, fuck yes, let's go. And then it would sap absolutely nothing for me about the quantum mania experience. nothing. Probably not. I mean, the way I look at it is, like, obviously, I love the interconnectedness.

I'm a comic book nerd. I love sort of when things feed into each other. But at the same time, like, I want each piece of it to be a satisfying story on its own. Yep. And for the big bad to turn out to be someone who is just in a stinger to then set up his appearance in another movie, that would leave me feeling like, okay, obviously I was entertained here. There's a lot of really good stuff here. But it would feel like this is subservient to this other. thing. And no, I'm really liking Loki. I want Loki to be able to stand relatively on its own while still being a P. Like, there's parts of it that obviously connect everything else. But the ultimately, who is doing this and why? That has to be something endemic to the show.

And like, if Kang is a major part of these last two episodes and that is in quantum mania, that's different from, oh, at the very end, like, you know, Loki and Sylvie and Mobius are standing around the ruins of the TVA office. It's like, well, we saw it. of that case, no, but we don't know, like, but who was ultimately doing this, cut to, you know, Jonathan Majors under the Purple Mask. That would kind of bum me out, I have to say. Yeah, I mean, it's ultimately always going to be more, like, narratively rewarding if the, the solve to the puzzle, the answer to the riddle and the mystery is something that has been there the whole time. Though, interestingly, that is contrary to a, I don't want to, like,

introduce a straw man, but contrary to, I think, a lot of the response to the first two shows, where so on the Midnight Boys episode a couple days ago, I thought Van and Charles made a really good point in favor of Ravona ultimately being the big bad of the season, which was in essence, that's of a piece with Agatha all along and Sharon Carter being the power broker. It actually was the thing they were showing us the whole time, which whether you would personally, you know,

find Ravona as the big bad to be the most interesting choice, I think fits with what you're describing. I guess there's a chance that they could make, make the Kang thing works still in that respect because the history and the comics with Ravona and Kang, that relationship and connection could ultimately be a pathway to that in some way. Certainly all of the other Kang and amorous plot lines, the connection to the timeline feels just like it is meant to be a part of the story in some way. But I think what you're, I think what you're saying makes a lot of sense. So let's talk about Rvona as the possibility.

Is Rvona the big bad? Is Rvona a partner or a pawn? of the man behind the curtain. I was struck by one thing in this episode. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this. Maybe I'm overthinking this. It seems to me like Ravona thought those three androids were real. Like thought that those were the timekeepers. Now, maybe she just knows that she's communicating with whoever is controlling them.

That's the easiest explanation, right? But there were a lot of different lines and moments that it's like maybe she's just playing out the farce, right? Totally possible. That would be fine. She seems nervous to go into the timekeepers' lair earlier in the episode. Now, again, maybe that's just about whoever is actually puppeteering. Maybe she's just taking a deep breath to get ready for the events to come. She says to Mobius, do you have any idea how impossible it is to keep the timeline stable?

The timekeepers are all that stand between us and full-scale calamity. Again, that could apply to whoever is actually pulling the strings, not just the androids. But then, in the throne room, gracious timekeepers, as promised, the variance. Like it felt like she was communicating with them. Maybe that's just to play out the farce. She's a very good actor, good team player, playing out the string. I would buy it. But, you know, and then when B-15 enters and the fight's about to commence, this was the biggest one to me.

Ravona shouts protect the timekeepers. Why? Just to protect the lie? Because they need that mask, that face to cover whatever is actually happening. Does she not know who is behind those three blue puppets? But if you're saying that, these are all arguments against her being the big bad. I know. I know.

Like she comes across to me as like a hench woman. You know, I think Goo Goo is a great enough actor that like if they want to go the Agnes, Agatha, all along, root with her. They can. I don't feel like we've seen enough of that over the course of these episodes to suggest that that's what's going on here. It's more she is now the one that Sylvie is going to interrogate. while, meanwhile, Loki is in this other space that we'll talk about,

finding out what's actually going on. So I don't think it's her. It could be her, but right now that's not where I'm leaning. Yeah, I agree. And, of course, even if she's not the villain, she's still a villain, as I was discussed at length earlier. I thought the moment where Sylvie gets control of the pruning wand, when Sylvie is standing over Ravona, what does Rvona say?

Do it. Now, is that because she knows what happens after? you're pruned, knows it's not really the end, though it could be. Is that because pruning leads to maybe a reset or some other pathway? Or is she really like, if this is the end, it's the end, I did my best. I took it, at least in that moment, as I'm over it. Like, I don't want to have to look at your smug face in victory anymore. Just, you know, like Stringer Bell says, you know.

Amazing. Okay. What are you thinking about the Miss Minutes theory that our wonderful producer and Ringerverse team member, Arjuna, is just frankly obsessed with? We're all calling him Mr. Minutes. He talks about Miss Minutes all the time. He really thinks this is going to be true. Are you into this? The internet is a buzz with the Tara Strong Hollywood Reporter interviews about there's so much more to be revealed. What do you think? That would be fun. I feel like if it was going to be misminutes, they would have given her more to do in those first two episodes. That's the tricky part. Again, and that's one of the reasons

why I found the Sharon Carter as the power broker thing kind of disappointing is there's just not a ton of Sharon Carter both in previous movies and in Captain Falcon and the Winter Soldier to make like that the satisfying revelation. It's just sort of she was available, so they did it. Whereas there's a lot of Agnes slash Agatha

in all of these sitcom episodes, and, like, Catherine Hahn makes her presence felt every single time she's on the screen. Like, she's just chewing enormous amounts of scenery. She's so fantastic. Terestrung, love her. Voice acting legend. Fantastic.

There's just very, like, minimal amounts of her, basically, like, two scenes, more or less, if I'm remembering right. So for her to suddenly, you know, two-thirds of the way through the season, turn out to be the one, that's tough. Whereas, like, if it's a Loki, like, at least we've seen other Loki.

So even if it's somebody new, whether it's Richard E. Grant or an actor, they have somehow successfully kept entirely hidden from us until now, or if it's Hittleston, for that matter, like that fits in because Loki is everywhere all over the show. I'm not, I'd say, a leading member of the, it's Miss Minutes fan club, but I can definitely see. like the Hal-esque role and also just the idea that, again, with what has been behind the mask, whether that is a person letting the mask melt away and embracing some new aspect of life, whether it is literally the Android space lizards? Who is behind Miss Minutes?

Like that conversation between Loki and Miss Minutes in the second episode about like, well, like, what are you? It did seem deliberate. And I'm also quite hung up on the button. panel in the elevator, like all the symbols, what do they mean? And in the trailer and then I think, I believe the end credits, one of the shots that pans up on the panel and set it down, there's like, there's a little, little of those minutes just hanging out. And then there's like an equal sign right above. I just wonder if it's a clue. I don't know. It could be. I just feel like if it's going to be

her, there was a lot of opportunities to put Miss Minutes into episode four, and they didn't. That's true. Yeah. And so that's not like ideal storytelling. Like it would have been very easy to do it in a way that still seemed innocuous. Like when Mobius is trying to figure out if Loki is telling him the truth and he's, you know, going to the library, like he could have gone to Miss Minutes at some point and asked her some questions and come up with some contradictions and they didn't do that. Good point.

What about Val? Any chance it's Val? It's not Val. What is... Oh, my God. All right. Hear me out for a second. I don't think it's bad either.

I don't think it's Val either. But here's one thing I love. I love the Internet. And have you seen all of these tweets for people out there about how if you flip the TVA logo upside down, it looks exactly like Val, the way they've stylized the letters?

Okay. I don't know. Look, if there's a chance to put Julie Drive Fishing into every MCU thing ever. I'm here for it. I love her. She's the best. You know, Mount Rushmore.

It's not Val. Like that's just so not in any way. Even ignoring what I know about Val from the comics, it's so not in any way the character as presented in Falcon and the Winter Soldier. No. The logo I think is great, though. Shouts to everyone who spotted that. That's amazing.

I love the internet. A Loki. This is the big one to talk about because I think this is. episode in particular gave us the most fodder. Yes. For this idea. Not only, of course, just the premise of the show, right? Think of the way that they style the word, Loki, all the different symbols, all of these

different variants, Loki and Sylvie. The variants we meet in the mid-credit scene, classic Loki, boastful Loki, Kid, Loki, Gator Loki, just crushing it. That question that we talked about earlier, let's look at it through this lens for a minute. Why are the Loki such a threat to the TVA? Now, think back again to that question, Sylvia asked. Do you think that what makes the Loki a Loki is the fact that we're destined to lose?

You think of that Mobius line from episode one. You sure lose a lot. You might even say it's in your nature. Jason, my guy JC, tweeted something I thought was really smart. The idea that there could be this Loki Prime, who needs every Loki on this losing Loki TVA approved path. And this is, as we talked about a little bit earlier, kind of catching on as a bigger theory,

the idea that the Loki, this key Loki, King Loki perhaps, might need this because the narcissistic nature of a Loki would believe that only lokies are the true threat, right? Only a loki could take down another Loki. And that that initial, no, I'm superior response actually comes from a place of fear of knowing that a Loki could do it. The thing that Jay had in his tweet

that I thought was so interesting was the Council of Kang Comp. Like, you know, with a mortis, tricking Prime Kang into destroying other versions of Kang. Could that be a parallel with a Loki and other versions of Loki, I really like this. I am starting to think that this is it.

I think this is the most satisfying. It doesn't have to be this, but thematically, in a show about variance and a show about Loki being forced to confront who he is and why he does what he does, what could be the better end result than the fact that the being he's been fighting

against all along is some version of himself. Exactly. Exactly. If you go back and you look at like Wanda Vision, like Agatha is really not the villain. Wanda is the villain. It's sort of like she has caused all of this trouble. Alan, what do you mean?

The people of the town she imprisoned for weeks on end will never know what she did for them. Don't even. I loved Wanda Vision, to be clear, but that was a tough moment. I do. And this gets back to the thing you said before about the ceiling, which is the one thing that I worry about is MCU mostly, not entirely, but mostly, endings are not great.

Like the climaxes of the movies are very rarely the best parts of those movies. The finalees of the previous two Disney Plus shows were not the best episodes of either of those. So I'm worried that we're going to somehow get into some sort of CGI slugfest or something else that in some way winds up undercutting everything that's happened before. But at the same time, if it's Loki versus Loki, that's good, that's meaty. That's exactly what we've been sort of doing all along here. It doesn't have to be that, but if it's good, if it is that, I would be very pleased. Yeah, and it really does fit in with the core examinations because allowing other versions,

interacting with other versions of yourself to help you think about what you could be, if you tried to be better, if you tried to change for the good. Well, the other end of that spectrum is just as illuminating. Well, what would it look like if I kept going on the path of destruction and villainy? So I think it would be really good. Some lines that stood out when the middle timekeeper says to Sylvie, you're a child of the timekeepers to Sylvie, we can talk. It's like, what the fuck is up with that?

does that mean? You're a child of the timekeepers, too? I, that would, I mean, unless the frost giants are the timekeepers, that would support the idea of this being a Loki in some way. There are some cases against it embedded in the language of the episode two, like Mobius saying to Ravona, if there's a mastermind here, I don't think it's Loki, though then right after that, you get contrary logic with Mobius saying, work your Loki, work your That ought to be my mantra supporting the idea that it is all about loki's. And you think of something like Sylvie saying in episode two. It's not about you.

And the idea that it being about Loki and nature and nurture and identity and choice and mass, but not just about R1 specific Loki would really all fit together, I think, quite nicely. It's very complicated. Have you ever read whatever happened to The Man of Tomorrow, the like the Alan Moore story that brings it into the original like run of Superman? No. Okay. So, spoiler for a 35-year-old comic. but the ultimate villain

and it turns out to be Mixius Pidilic. Like they're trying to figure out who's been pulling all the strings and he comes out and he explains like when I, you know, I'm immortal,

I've lived forever. And so like, it's easy to get bored being immortal. So I keep trying to change things up. So for like a million years or however long, I was good.

And then for another million years, I was mischievous. Now I've decided to be evil. And what you were saying, and that's why he's caused all this. And what you were saying before about like, Here's you got a Loki who's trying to be good,

and maybe you've got a Loki who tries to be bad. Loki sort of always exists in this in-between space where he is chaotic and mischievous, but usually not outright evil, although most of what he does in Avengers is quite bad. And now we have him moving towards good, so maybe the universe needs to balance this out with a Loki who is very, very, very bad.

That gets us to our last talking point today quickly, which is the mid-credit scene. and what a minute of TV that was. I'm so thankful, by the way. I always watch the episodes through to the moment when Disney Plus tries to recommend I watch something else because that's when they will then put the cast credits up and I always want to screencap that.

So I like know proper names and stuff. I might have turned the episode off if not for that. And because I'm watching there, I get to Loki suddenly waking up and everything else because I keep forgetting that they might do amid credit scene on the TV shows. Just in case. I know.

Always got to wait. So Loki wakes with the gasp. He is in this derelict landscape, New York. We can glean from what looks to be a broken Stark Tower. There is a shot in the trailer for the season. That's like a wider shot of that same setting. It seems clearly like that is Stark Tower and this is New York. I mean, it could also be Dufin Schmertz Evil Incorporated.

like they could be in Danville from Phineas and Furb right now. The shapes are very similar. I'm just saying like, don't automatically assume Stark Tower just because we're in the MCU, okay? It's fair. It's a good note. And he says, is this hell, am I dead? And then finally, after waiting for Richard E. Grant, all season long, we hear, not yet, but you will be unless you come with us.

And then we get the camera panning to this collection of our four Loki's boastful Loki, holding a hammer, always interesting in the, as guardian collection of characters. Classic Loki, which is Richard E. Grant, kid Loki and Gator Loki. And they're kind of posed. And we saw this shot earlier in the season where Loki has to watch that moment

where the Avengers gather like that and look down to him. And they're standing over him. Yes. And this is like a mirror of that shot in such an interesting way. So where is Loki? What is this place? and is everyone there going to be a Loki variant?

Are we going to see Mobius or other variants who aren't Loki's somewhere else? What is the fact that they could die if they don't move quickly mean? Are they going to be reset? Are they going to be killed? What are we expecting from this plot development-wise, character development-wise, either through the lens of that, could it be a Loki theory or just more broadly? Well, I think once you start getting it all the timey-wimey of it, like this could be anywhere.

be like there's a pocket dimension. It could be a place where like they reset. There's just so many different options that I'm not, I'm not stressing myself yet in terms of figuring out where they are. It's just that they are is the thing that matters to me and that these other loki's are there. And as you said, one of them is very much in the Thor mold, even though his hammers like made out of railroad parts. I thought that was kind of difty. But obviously you've got Richard E. Grant in the Jack Kirby costume, yeah, that's been around since the 60s. You've got Kid Loki dressed exactly as he was, you know, when he was introduced in like the 2010s or whenever, whenever that was.

Gator Loki, although, I mean, do we know that he's not like Crocodile Loki or some other sort of lizard Loki? Yeah. On the internet. I'm going with alligator Loki, but I can't say that I'm an expert. All I know is that my husband discovered Loki filters on Instagram and we've just been using them on our cat for days. And it's, it's bliss, honestly.

That's so good. I mean, I mean, I think it's going to be more, I doubt it's going to be as intensely before sunrisey as the Lamentus episode was. But I could certainly see like them doing the majority of the episode, just them like talking about like each of their, you know, we're definitely going to hear each of their stories, even if they're briefly alluded to. And it's going to be more questioning of what it means to be a Loki, you know, when you can have so many widely different kinds of Loki's, what's that about? and then they'll come up with the plan, and the plan will either be executed beautifully in the finale, or it will all fall apart, and yet somehow still work out okay,

because, hey, chaos. That's how it's supposed to be. They say it's a ladder, Alan. You mentioned pocket dimensions. The guy who said that is a piece of shit, so. It's true. The font of good quotes, though, Littlefinger. He really was.

Is this some sort of purgatory, some sort of prison, is this some sort of limbo, something to do with the nexus of all realities, another timeline or realm, is this a timeline where a Loki won the battle of New York?

Possibly. Now, would that fit with the Is a Loki in charge theory? I don't know. I guess again, you can almost make these arguments either way because on the one hand,

and I'm going to tie myself in knots with the logic here. On the one hand, you could say maybe every other Loki variant who is a threat needs to confront that success. Maybe, though, this is actually the land or timeline or realm of a character for whom a Loki achieving that outcome represents either something that needs to be maintained

or a threat. But you said pocket dimension, which always makes me think of, of course, Flarkens. I love cats. Pocket dimensions inside of Flarkins. And I just have to note this. I have to say this on this episode. The cat or Flurkin, who we met in episode one. been thinking about that, about that little blah, blah, a lot. And there's a picture of that majestic

creature on the mug in the, like, record room where a piece of paper that records everything he's ever said is. When young Sylvie is in that same room, okay, in this episode, in the flashback, the mug is there, but there's no picture of the cat on the mug this time. And so it made me think, does that mean that cat is a variant who came into the TVA at another point? Or could it be the flurkin with a pocket dimension in which all of the pruned variants go? Don't roll it out. Mallory, for your sake, I really like having heard how much you've talked about the flurken over years, I want for you for it to be the flurkin.

Thank you. I'm just waiting for my goose spin-off. That's honestly what this is all about. But because I care, I also want you to brace yourself for the very strong possibility that it is not a flurkin, that they're not going to go, again, it becomes, what have they spent four hours of television doing and setting up? Sure. And what, like, is it good storytelling for all of a sudden it to be a flirt in after all of this?

I mean, I see your point, you know? It's, it's, it's. I don't want to break your heart here. I want this for you. I just, if it doesn't happen, I don't want you to be heard even more. That's all. I appreciate it. You know, yes, you're right.

think back to the trailers, you know, we haven't seen our vote Loki comics line, presidential Loki candidate. We haven't seen King Loki who appears to be in many shots in these trailers. Yeah. Are those characters coming in the next episode? The episode after is one of them in charge. King Loki being in charge. The Hittleston played King Loki who seems to be in these trailers. That's, I think, a strong contender here for what this could all be pointing towards. So will these other Loki variants align to overthrow that Loki? You know, Sylvie said, not interested in ruling the TVA, but bringing it down, eliminating that unnatural order and control and letting chaos rain. That feels like something a Loki would do.

Well, this brings up something that, okay, so episode two ends, Sylvie starts unleashing these bombs and everyone at the TVA is freaking out. And I feel like we've just sort of moved way the heck past that. Well, and they... What did she do? What did she do? What was her original plan, you know, that Loki foiled? So I, because everyone was back at the TVA and there's a moment in this episode where we see the monitor before their nexus event spawns

and it's intact again. So I took that to mean they had pruned all of those nexus events, all of those branches after Sylvie bombed in the timeline and that whatever happened in those branches as a result of Sylvie bombing the timeline

and that that was not her mission. It was a distraction. It was to get everybody out of the TVA so that she could infiltrate and reach the timekeepers. That's what I'm assuming, but I guess mileage may vary on whether that feels fulfilling

given how massive that moment seemed. Yes, it felt like everyone's like, oh, Sylvie has just created the multiverse. And I'm like, I don't feel like that's what I just saw there. But so, okay. Yeah. I believe I literally said, The multiverse is here.

So it definitely seemed like that at the time. But everybody loves a multiverse. The very first comic book I ever read was Justice League of America 100, where the Justice League, the Justice Society, and the seven soldiers of victory all team up from multiple earth. So I am down for like doppelgangers and multiverses and all of that. I just don't think we're there yet. I think we're getting there.

I will try to be patient both for the formal arrival of the unspooling multiverse and for the eventual starring role that the Flurkins deserve inside of the MCU. I'll wait. I mean, the Marvel's movie could certainly, you know, with Carol and Kamala, that could certainly like have a lot of flurkin in there for you. I think that's where you want to put your hopes on. From your mouth to Kevin Faggy's ears. Let's make it happen.

All right, Alan, you have been so generous with your time. This was really so much fun. Thank you for being with us today. everybody please check out all of the awesome work that Alan is doing chief TV critic at Rolling Stone. You can read him every week on Loki. It can read him on a million things. I don't know how Alan writes about the number of things that he does. Check out too long. Didn't watch pod. Check out all of Alan's wonderful work. Alan, come back soon. Absolutely. Anytime. All right. It's mailbag time, folks joining me now.

The Lord of the Memes, Jo Mia Denneron, as always. Hello. And I think it's fair to say. Not only an exemplary Loki Recap writer here at the ringer.com, but one of the internet's chief Geater Loki enthusiast

it's Daniel Chin. Wow, what an intro. What a pleasure to be joining you, Mel. I mean, if anything, I feel like I undersold it. You're really, you're really into the reptile variant. I love Gator Loki. Oh, my God. I can't, I can't, I can't wait to see what Gator Loki is. I have so many questions. I wrote many questions today. I can't wait to see what happens next week.

What are your biggest questions about this variant? Well, first of all, I definitely want to know if Gator Loki can, like, do any magic. Like, anything at all will be just, incredible. If Gator Loki can speak, I will be devastated if Gatordoki cannot speak. I have so many questions about just the nature of its existence. Like, I really want to know if it's going to do the Loki thing like raises its little Gator arms up like Loki does. I really, I could go on forever. Is Gator Loki going to give a Neil speech? I will take anything and everything.

From Canada. Neil to give me raw chicken for my mid-morning snack. I believe in fact that we have a question today about this very variant. Jomey, what do we got? You guys are going to love this. This first question comes from Alex. If you could be one of the lokies we've encountered so far,

which would you be? And why would it be the crocky? a Loki. Daniel, I'm clearing out. I mean, I really just love imagining everything that's happened in any of the Thor movies, any of the, like, anything that Loki's been in, but just replace him with, with like, Gator Loki. And it just makes everything so much better. Wow. We have an idea for a ringer video series, folks. Like, just run it all back. Like, oh my God. Wow. I know that, I know now what the next 10 videos Jomi's tweeting from ringerverse are going to be.

I love it. Which Loki scene would you put this variant into first? Get help? Get help for a rat? Get help is definitely up there. Well, what is Thor in this, whatever reality? Is Thor a frog? Like, maybe.

Let's bring Throg into the MCU. It's time. We've been waiting long enough. It could happen. If I could be any Loki variant, just for the record, I would be, well, we haven't met all of them yet. which is part of what's exciting. I'm going to say, you know,

I like the overall fit that classic Loki was rocking. It feels like our guy, classic Loki, has caught a lot of L's on the sneakers app, just like the rest of us, and has made do with what he has. But,

you know, I think it's just, you can't really say out loud, I would be King Loki, right? And I can't say that out loud. So I would be, I'd be Sylvie,

you know? Oh. A solitary existence and then embracing true love and meaning and connection when I found it at last. And I think we all know who I'm talking about, talking about my cat. I know you're the best and I love you. Jomey, which variant would you be? Oh, I'm rocking with boastful Loki. You know, you get to be worthy and be a Loki.

That's that you can't, there's no beating that, right? That's like the best level of Loki, at least for me. You know what exactly? But, Mal, this is great. We got confirmation. Our Young Avengers agenda is still in play. Can Loki exists? We're here.

It's happening. It's 100% happening. We saw the vision early. And we're going to get it. I'm excited. I can't, I mean. It's inevitable. Just a question of when.

You know, hey, young Avengers, they are inevitable. Are you sending Thanos a royalty for that? No, I'm saying, I got to send. Sean Fennessee a royalty for that. That is, I got to send the big picture. Sound bite. I wonder if we'll have to wait for for Wanda's

twins to come back for Speed and Wiccan to enter the story again, probably in Dr. Strange, and then we get Young Avengers after that or if we'll get it before we just have so many characters already. I can't wait. Kid Loki is going to be dope. I'm so excited. And Daniel, meanwhile, we'll be, you know, just

holding out. You know, we had the holding out for a hero needle drop earlier in the season. And Daniel's like, my hero has arrived and it's alligator loki. And now I'm holding out for my alligator loki spin off. 100%. I'm so excited for whatever happens. I will be so disappointed if it's really just like an alligator. Like if it's just kid Loki's pet, like,

they just had extra crowns line around. Yeah, it's just like, oh, you get one too. You get a crown. That's weird nice. Mention Wanda. We have an interesting. And a really, really, really interesting question from Donnie French Fry. We really do.

What do we got? With the symbols on the wall where the timekeepers were, and since enchantments and magic don't work there, are those symbol ruins and is the TVA being controlled by witchcraft? Gotta be honest. I love this. It's a great theory. I like it. It's great.

This is really interesting. So let's officially add this to the list of who is pulling the story. Strings, contenders that we just ran through it with Alan. Because, okay, if we remember what Agatha said in episode seven of Wanda vision, you know, about the ruins, didn't you notice basic spell protection, one on each wall? No, nothing. These are ruins, Wanda, in a given space, only the witch the cast the runes can use her magic. So as the questioner noted, that would fit with other people's magic, not working inside the TVA. And thinking about this, I then rewatched the scene between Agatha and Wanda.

to cast her runes in the finale and parrots Agatha and says, in a given space, only the witch who cast them can use her magic. Thanks for the lesson. Sick flex. The way that Agatha is like

moving her body trying to use her magic, it kind of evokes the way that Loki, that Hidlson, was trying to use his magic when he first came to the TVA, like the flinching

and oh my God, that moment of recognition where you're like, this isn't working the way it usually does. Could it be Agatha? Could Agatha be involved in some way. Could it be Wanda? I mean, Wanda is a nexus being, right?

So there's a really interesting scenario to consider there. Wanda's the Scarlet Witch. Wanda uses chaos magic. How often have we heard about chaos this season? So could it be Wanda or could the true puppeteer

be someone who is afraid of Wanda's chaos magic? And that makes me think of like a mortis and the whole King constellation of possibilities. I mean, King can't have another nexus being

or a, just a chaos magic user like Wanda on the threat that that would pose, threatening his sacred timeline, comics history between Amortis and Wanda, seeking to use her to control timelines in an end. What do you think? Could there be something here? I think it's definitely impossible.

just because, like, I feel like throughout all this, we're kind of waiting to see how it's going to directly, like, tie into the Doctor Strange sequel, Multiverse Madness. So I feel like it could be possible. I really just like how much they're, like, subtly, like, tying in, like, the rest of the Marvel universe in little ways, like, with this last episode, like, the mention of, Mobius's mention of, like, Titans, vampires and Tree. Like, the fact that the scroll was just hanging out in the TVA lobby. I think it's certainly possible. Well, I feel like they're going to wait to do something huge like that for like the big screen and that it's probably going to be more contained into like within this own Loki storyline. But like I really like the idea of this. Dan Myers on the ring of her Facebook group.

Shout out to Dan had a picture like it's a side by side of the background of the timekeepers and like the symbol they had. And then below it is like one of Dr. Stranges, you know, finger magic things. and it kind of lines up a little bit, you know, to, you know, it matches a little bit. You know, so I don't know if it's like the exact same thing, but hey, man, like this is definitely like a possibility. Like we could, this is definitely something I could see happening, you know, so I'm excited. Can't wait for a few months from now long after the finale when everybody starts noticing that Dr. Strange's shadow has perhaps been digitally added into. not only Wanda Vision, but Loki as well. Great stuff.

It all connects. Jomi, Daniel, it's always a pleasure to be here with you talking about our favorite variants. We have brought in Cree, Titans, vampires, as Daniel said. And now it's time to go deal with our two pesky demigods. So that is a wrap on today's episode. Thank you, as always, to our intrepid producer. And timekeeper, Steve Oman. No word yet on whether Steve has been deploying an Android on Zooms this entire time.

Thank you as well to Mr. Minutes, Arjuna Ramgapal, and TD St. Matthew Daniel and the entire production team for their help with this episode. Thank you to the Lord of the Memes Jomi Adeneron for his work on the social for this episode. Thank you to Daniel Chin. Please read Daniel's excellent Loki breakdowns every Wednesday. and Friday on the ringer.com. And thank you, of course, to Alan Seppinwall for joining me today. Remember, follow the ringerverse on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us on social and head back into the ringerverse next Wednesday, Thursday, Friday,

and then the following Monday for our Loki and Black Widow Ponds. A lot of Marvel talk coming. Until next time, I got to have a prince tell me how the real world works. What's the difference between butter and butter made from real California dairy? It's the real California farm families behind it. Real people. Real care. Real intention. Why? Because real matters. So whether you're pouring milk, melting cheese, or just grabbing one more spoonful of yogurt. Keep it real. Look for the seal. Real California milk by real California farm families.

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