The Ringer-Verse - ‘Loki’ Ep. 5: Analysis, Themes, and Theories

Episode Date: July 9, 2021

Mal is joined by The Ringer's David Shoemaker to break down the outstanding fifth episode of ‘Loki,’ "Journey Into Mystery," by delving into the theme of change, what we saw from our various Loki variants, the 'Lost' reference and Marvel Easter eggs, and more (04:45). The Ringer's Daniel Chin then joins to explain Alioth's comics history, and then Mal, David, and Daniel make their predictions for the finale's eventual Big Bad reveal (84:49). Host: Mallory Rubin Guests: David Shoemaker and Daniel Chin Producer: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal and TD St. Matthew-Daniel Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit trimfair radio.com. The playoffs are here and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul Predicts. Predict the spread, total points, and even the game winner. Sign up and get a $25 bonus. Offered by Fandul prediction markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant, 18 plus. Bonus is non-withdrawable and expires seven days after receipt.

Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investments. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at vandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. How did the TVA find you? I got lonely to tell you the truth. I missed my brother. And I wondered if he missed me, if anybody else did.

But as soon as I took my first steps to getting off the planet, the TVA arrived. Because we, my friends, have but one part to play. The God of... Outcasts. And welcome into the Ringerverse here on the Ringer podcast network. I'm Mallory Rubin, co-host of Binge Mode, head of editorial here at the Ringer. It is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only into the void, but to join us on the

Ringers Nexus podcast feed for all things, fandom. Now, before we dive in today, I want to take a moment to send our love and our thoughts to our Ringerverse teammate Van Lathan, who lost his father this week. If you listen to the Midnight Boys or to Van's other work, you know how dear, how precious his father is to him. So please send Van your thoughts. Van, we love you, buddy. We're thinking of you and your family.

With Van taking some time, Charles will be chatting about Black Widow with a guest Midnight Rider tomorrow this Friday on the Ring of Earth's Feed. And then I will be back with you on Monday to dive into the movie again. And then we will be back to our regular Wednesday, Friday schedule, the rest of next week,

for our instant reaction and deep dive pods on the Loki finale. I can't believe it's almost finale time already. Remember, follow the Ring of Verse on Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us across our social channels. And bear in mind, as always, our friendly neighborhood spoiler warning. This episode will contain spoilers from Loki's fifth episode, Journey Into Mystery, as well as details from the entire MCU run to date, some comics canon, all of it. So proceed with more caution than President Loki did.

When Alligator Loki, Little Allie, Big Al, we'll see. We'll see what we land on. Latched onto his right hand. Joining me today to talk about Big Al and everything else. Now that he suggested, we take a quick breather so he can ask several thousand questions. It's ringer art lead, mass man and press box host. the humanoid who once said on this very podcast, yeah, I'm a John Walker guy.

It's David Shoemaker. David, welcome back into the ringerverse. Dude, when you're like a preteen and you're looking for like physical, for bodies to redraw to be a comic book artist someday, the U.S. agent was up there, man. Demand, Demolition Man, right there too. There's a lot of good stuff going on in that era of Captain America,

I got to say. I love this. I love thinking of you sketch it. your favorite comics. It's not too late. What's your favorite comic character to draw right now? What's my favorite comic book character that's like being published right now, like current stuff, or who I just like to draw when I'm sitting around? Because the answer to the second one, I mean, it's the same for everybody. It's Wolverine and it's Batman if I'm feeling artsy. I mean, that's just the answer to the question, a matter who, if anybody draws, that's the answer. Wow. Okay.

I didn't know it was that cut and dry. Yeah, it really is. No pun intended when you're talking about Wolverine. Anyway. Do you have the Batman Lego helmet? I'm actually not a Batman guy, but he's just, but he is artistically just sort of like, you know,

before Hellboy, I guess was like the, like the, that's how you learned how to draw a shadow. It's how, it's how like light and dark played out in comic books there more than anywhere else.

So yeah, it's a fun, you know, Frank Miller really made that the goal. Oh, wonderful. Illuminating insights right off the bat here. Speaking of insights, I want to talk to you,

about Loki, man. That's why we're here. That's why we're here. Let's do it. Let's do it. Overall impressions of episode five, journey into mystery, another wonderful episode of Loki. It was so good. Every episode of Loki has been good, although I think I found myself liking it more than I could put words to for a lot of the series, or at least like the reason, like, the way I would try to talk other people into it, I felt like I wasn't quite getting it how great it was. You know, I mean, like, listen, no one's going to say, no one's going to, no one's going to say, like, they don't want to watch, like, Owen Wilson and Hilsen just, like, have a, like, a 30-minute conversation in a lunchroom. Like, it's, it's just magic, but it's also, it also doesn't quite get at the full magic of the show. But this was an episode that was just, it was just a banger, man.

I mean, it was like, like, I, from start to finish, it had just the right amount of action, the right amount of sort of, you know, Easter eggy stuff, the right amount of teasers, the right amount of, you know, one-on-one conversations, sentimentality. It was a great episode of TV. Was it your favorite of the season so far? I think so. I mean, I think every episode has sort of raised the bar.

I mean, I was a big fan of episode three, and a lot of people, I think, I felt like, you know, weren't as big fans of that as they were of one and two, but I kind of thought it's gotten better and better. And so I'm, I really loved this episode. I thought it was tremendous. I mean, I've loved them all.

I really have. What a weekly delight this is. been, I really enjoyed the balance in this penultimate installment of plot and character. And I found the episode name quite fitting in that respect, journey into mystery, obviously a nod to the iconic comics line. debuted in the 50s. This is the line in which Thor and then Loki, the Asgardians, were introduced into Marvel lore in the 60s, right?

And it felt so fitting because of what that line represents in terms of the strange, the cosmic, the unusual, the thought-provoking, the surreal, the permission that it grants you to explore all of those things and kind of linger and luxuriate in a landscape of imagination and possibility. And it just felt like so befitting to name the episode, Journey Into Mystery, because this episode tapped deeper into the show's mystery, the show's mythology and sense of wonder, but remained really firmly anchored in its examination of character, that character study-centric approach that I think is really defined. The run so far on what I personally have enjoyed most about it,

that blend was very present here. You mentioned the Easter eggs. Well, before I get to the Easter eggs, I just want to say, I guess the title is a sort of an Easter egg, right? I mean, I love the title. The title was great. And if this whole second half, like back into the season was built around a longstanding desire to title an episode Journey and Mystery, then it was all worth it. I think I take everything that you said, and I think it's all right on the money. But I think there's something even more basic here, right?

For the vast majority of fans, Journey Into Mystery is a title that they really. read in the first sentence of the Wikipedia page for Thor and Loki, right? If you, if you're, like, what is the deal with Loki? The first thing you're going to read is he made his debut and journeyed into mystery number 85, right? That is like what, that is literally the first thing you learn about Loki if you're trying to learn about Loki. And in this episode, in Journey into Mystery, we got to, well, it wasn't, I mean, he popped up in the last episode, but we got to meet Classic Loki. I mean, this is where we kind of got, where he made his, well, this was his coming out party for sure, it will also possibly be looked back at as the coming out party for whoever we

deemed to be Loki a year from now, right, for the Loki that we follow forever. So I mean, I think there's a lot of opportunity for this to be a more meaningful illusion than it even seems like right now. Yeah, I think that's a great point. And the question of which Loki or how many of these lokies we've been spending time with and getting to know ultimately enter the the MCU film or the primary MCU moving forward is increasingly an interesting one. I think that that's been one of the things that has really felt like a stroke of genius about not even the execution of the show, but just the concept for it, allowing us to be back with Tom Hiddleston's Loki, who we are endlessly compelled by,

right? Just this magnetic character and portrayal without having to walk back his death in the Infinity saga. and bridging that divide and navigating that balancing act, how long can we be with his version of Loki? Now, as the multiverse on spools, and we exist in this world of variance and timelines, maybe for quite some time,

even as characters like Sylvie or Kid Loki, or, hey, let's not rule out Big Al. Maybe it's, you know, we saw Throg in this episode. Bring on the Pet Avengers. Let's give Alligator Loki a spinoffy a spinoff. Who knows? But it's reasonable, I think, at least to assume that on the one hand, we can never really say goodbye to Tom Hiddleston because he's just been this, like, dynamo in our lives.

And that on the other hand, or it's equally true that part of the mission of this show is to bring other versions of Loki into the central, central MCU fold, right? First of all, I want to ask, if we get to Pet Avengers before Young Avengers, does Jomey just quit? Is that it? Well, it's all happening at once, man. it's all happening at once. Like this is our content multiverse. I mean, we got Kid Loki. It is.

The Young Avengers, characters are just building installment after installment. That is, I think, just a matter of when, certainly not if. It's actually not a matter. I was thinking about this,

watching this episode. It's not a matter of really when. It's a matter of do we do it now or not because kid actors get old, real courage. I was thinking about this too. They actually can't wait that long, not if they want to use the actors

they've already cast. I spent that, I was thinking about that and I was actually thinking about Hiddleston a lot through this episode because he's irrepressible. What's the word I'm looking for? He's irrepressible. He's just like he's such a force

in the way that he just says every sentence. His performance is completely indelible at this point. And it's always been that way. And yet you kind of almost get the feeling that like he's going big before he goes home a little bit. bit, right? Like, there's a lot, there's a, if this was his, if this is his farewell to the MCU, I wouldn't, I feel like I would go back and read it into his performance. And I, and I, it makes, it hurts me to

say that. But they're also constructing the narrative in such a way that he can kind of write himself out, right? It's not just a Captain America gets old sort of thing. It's, I mean, there's a lot of different ways that this could go, whether or not he and Sylvie realized that have the power just to create their own world or like, whatever it is, there's a lot of ways. It can go and even just from a practical point of view. Create a warmer plush or blanket first. Yes, exactly. Start small and then build toward a whole world, you know?

Yeah. From a practical point of view, though, one of the cool things they did from the very beginning of the MCU was to sort of depower to depower the Asgardians. So, depower the mythological beings and kind of make them into just aliens, right? They're just their own separate thing. And the power scale is all over the place when it comes to the TVA. that could be a whole separate episode. But if he actually does,

if both he and Sylvie gain all this power, that classic Loki is like showing them how to use, they kind of become, well, the pro wrestling term is division killers, right? They're too big to really be big bads or to be big heroes, you know? And so maybe they sort of write themselves out of the storyline. Interesting.

I will say that the incredibly touching scene and moment that we'll talk about a little bit later in the episode when we discuss Sylvie and, Loki and their relationship in more depth, the moment when they started talking about the future, I felt my heart clenching and grew very worried and very dismayed about what that might pretend for our Loki, the Loki that we have known for so long. And I do think that, you know, one of the things we're going to talk about today is a central theme is the idea of change classic Loki's arc in this episode took us on quite a journey, a meaningful one in that respect, and that's obviously been a

throughline of the season. And I will not be remotely surprised if our Loki's journey inside this season of TV culminates in him realizing that much like classic Loki did here, that survival instincts that we keep hearing about, what makes Loki a Loki, it's not just style, right? It's that they survive. That that morphs as they grow and evolve and learn to trust and love and thus other people from survival into sacrifice, and that the desire to actually protect somebody else, not just himself, is what his journey in this season of TV will ultimately be about.

I do want to ask you before we get further into the thematic heart of the episode, which again, I loved. You mentioned those Easter eggs. There were so many. The Internet is absolutely a buzz. How many can you spot? I think all of the Easter eggs that were present in this episode really heightened the sense of the void as this kind of perverse Marvel playground. Did you have a favorite?

You can name one. You can name five. You can name a dozen. Anything that just particularly excited or delighted you on the Easter egg front? I mean, I guess it depends on how we're defining Easter egg, right? Is it anything that we can kind of identify? Are we talking about like comic book Easter eggs in particular? just sort of like broader Easter eggs.

I'll just say this. Anything. I have a bunch of different ones. I mean, there's a comic book ones are all great. Everyone's going to talk about Frog Thor and whatever. I mean, there's, that's, you know, I'm a Walt Simonson guy. Walt Simonson, by the way, was one of the, my first favorite comic artist that I could not comprehend what he was doing, right?

He was doing, he was working on another level. I mean, it turns out he just does it. He's just more of a cartoony guy. But it's, he was fantastic. Anyway, if I had to pick one, the sentimental favorite is probably the ecto-cooler. high sea because I actually did drink it back in the day. I'm that old. Move over Jasta.

We're in the high sea era of Loki now. But I'll say this. I'll say overall, you had Mike Waldron on the show. I know Mike a little bit. He said very nice things about you. I've not talked to him since. I told him congrats when the show started.

I haven't talked to him since, but I will just say this. I, of all of, like, this is a great job that he has. and it's the coolest thing he could possibly be doing right now. But I am jealous as fuck. Can I say that? I am jealous as fuck of this one thing in the show more than anything else. And it is coming up with the idea that Loki and the TVA are the root source of all the conspiracy theories in the world. It is the smartest, most brilliant little thing.

I mean, it is so much fun. I could just bullshit about this for the rest of my life. It is so cool and so smart. And so, you know, the USS Eldridge, the D.B. Cooper thing obviously wasn't this episode. But the Polybius, like, video, like an arcade game, I think is sort of the pinnacle of this in this episode. It is just so cool and so smart. And I'm, and that's, and every time now I see anything that, that even hints at that, I'm going to be jumping out of my chair. I love that.

That's a really fun lens to, to view the Easter eggs, throw in the connections to our universe. The Tiki DGD Cooper thing was so good. Yeah, it was so good. I mean, but on its own, it was a little bit like, oh, hum, right? When you start pulling all these things together and you're just like, oh, yeah, this is just the low, this is, these are loki's. Like, this is like, that's basically we could just call them in our world. It's just like, oh, you, oh, you had, you had a loki yesterday? You thought you saw a Yeti?

Okay. Like, that's, like, that's a, it's a great, it's a great way of looking at the world. Yeti Loki, never rule it out, man. We have one episode to go. I love it. Yeah, I think probably Throg in the T-365 jar jumping and reaching desperately for Milnear. It's probably my favorite. That was amazing stuff.

But there were so many good ones. I mean, Charles and Jomi and Steve ran through some of the Easter eggs on Wednesday's episode. I think the Thanoscopter is getting a lot of attention. It was really fun. certainly considering we all spotted Stark Tower in the Stinger last week, and that had been visible and actually like a different shot in the preseason trailers, seeing in this episode in the pan through the void that the label on the building actually said, Kang Enterprises, Q-E-N-G connecting to the one of the various strands of Kang comics canon.

One more bit of Kang evidence there. Yellow Jackets helmet getting a lot of attention and buzz over the last couple days, certainly for many reasons. But King, Ant Man, Quantum Mania, Quantum Realm connections. Now is that our yellow jacket from the MCU? Is that a variant? Presumably it would be a variant, but still it makes you think of the quantum realm and how all of these story threads could attach. Really loved seeing the Living Tribunal's head, though, the statue. partially shattered on the ground.

I mean, the role of the multiverse, one more way to think about time and control and how the MCU might ultimately bring all of its MCU-specific multiverse language and examinations together in these early phase four installments. That was pretty cool. So there are so many. There are so much good stuff.

And obviously, we didn't even mention Lost, which I guess you can call an Easter egg and you can call whatever else. Let's talk about that for a minute. I've never felt for the past, however many years it's been, has it been a decade since loss more? For the past decade plus, I felt like I had too much to say about loss.

And I feel like I'm embarking on the conversation we're about to have. And I've not done my lost research quite enough. But let's jump right in. Okay. So it was the first thing I slacked you, right? Yeah. Lost.

because I couldn't stop thinking about it watching the episode. Now, I am certainly not the first person to make that observation. A lot of people have been talking about that over the last couple days. It was quite overt. Now, I think it's been one of the really fun things about watching this season of Loki. Waldron has spoken here with our pal Joanna across as many interviews about the various pop culture touchstones that serve as influences for him and references inside of the show. He's mentioned Lost.

There were notes of lost in earlier episodes, too, but one of the things that we've seen across the season is that these episodes have vibes and feels that seem mapped on episode after episode to a specific reference. For example, we talked a lot after episode three about how that was clearly the before sunrise episode, given what we know about how much before sunrise means to Waldron, right?

This was so clearly the lost episode, and so I'm interested in that for two reasons. One, it's just fun, right? It's just fun to go through and list some of the comps, which ones feel like unambiguous, which ones are maybe minor to major stretches but are still fun to talk about and think about for a minute. And then what that episode long nod might potentially indicate in terms of the coming finale, it's thematic resonance, etc. So let's take those one at a time.

Just some of the one-to-one comes. Tell me which of these you think are like, okay, yes, that's definitely intentional and which ones are just ridiculous reaches. Okay. This is just some, okay? The main one, obviously, is that Eliath is smoky.

I mean, this is unbelievable. Did it start with Eliath, then? Do you think conceptually it's like, You're looking at... You're the comics whiz here. Like, Eliath predates the man in black and the smoke monster from Lost.

But the specific rendering that we got here is clearly influenced by Smokey from Lost. The look of it with these like tendrils of smoke that are attacking people. The sound, that clickety click sound,

this looming specter on, I mean, that's the other major one, of course, is that the void is in essence, the island, right? This place that we can't quite understand that has magical properties and powers and a great mystery that ultimately is going to have some bearing on the plot. But more than anything tells us about ourselves. Yes. One million percent, yes.

There's no doubt that this is a deliberate parallel to me. I wonder if it was Eliath, like, they had already decided to put Eliath in, and then they're just staring at him in the comic. book. And they're like, well, okay, maybe this is our lost episode. By the way, just to I, pardon me, another tangent, but, please. It was when, I think when they started doing, when we started looking kind of phases two and three and even four, you know, going forward in the Marvel universe, I really, as a comic book reader thought that, that most of the stories they were going to tell were going to be the most modern stories. Like, when they relaunched with Marvel now, like, I thought they were just sort

of test marketing stuff for the MCU. And to some extent they were. I mean, we're going to see a lot of the stuff from that. We're going to see, you know, female Thor and everything like that going forward. There's going to be pieces of that. But overall, it's shocking to me how much of Falcon and the Winter Soldier and Loki come from 80s Marvel lore, right? And it's really some of the best stuff, but it never would have occurred to me that would have been the easiest to convey into, like, the modern cinematic marketplace, right? All of this is to say that Marvel Unlimited, the thing where you can pay whatever, 10 bucks a month and read all the comic books

is the great, I don't know if they're making money off of it. I always assume they're not. If not, it's the greatest loss leader in the history of pop culture. Because the way that you like Wikipedia, Detroit history, when you're watching the New Soderberg movie, you're like going back on Marvel Unlimited to find out to pretend you know about Eliath

when all your nerd friends are talking about him. And to like read old Journey in the Mystery and stuff like that, It's so brilliant. Like, I spend more time, I spend so much time reading comics. I have spent more time in the 80s and even in the 70s on Marvel Unlimited than I ever have in my life because of these two shows. And it's just amazing. So anyway, to get back to the original question.

Yes, Eliath in the smoke monster, it's a chicken in the egg situation. I don't know who came. I don't know which one came first. But, you know, the smoke monster weirdly had a little bit more, I guess the mystery of it on lost was sort of pointing it. And Loki, the Smoke Monster, just sort of like trying to poke people. And, you know, it's scary, I guess.

I still, I don't know. I mean, I guess I was raised to be afraid of the thing that was causing the smoke. And that is the implication here. But, you know, giving the smoke a name is a very comic booky thing to do. Well, that's, that's, of course, one of the questions, right?

Once you have Smokey, you got to look for Jacob. Couple more comps, though. I mean, we literally got a hatch. Oh, yeah. We have the hatch. The hatch of the hatch. It's a one-to-one. Here's the thing.

Every, every, I was the biggest lost fan. I was the biggest loss fan in the world when that show was on, man. My then-roommate and now podcast partner Brian Curtis used to make fun of me for like shushing him when the loss was on every Wednesday night because I wasn't like recording it and couldn't, there was no ability to watch it on like digital replay or anything like that. And he would just, he watched one episode with me. It was like the flashback episode where it was all about like, like, you know, on the Iraq war when they were torturing people or whatever. And every time he walked in,

he would just be like, is that an Iraq show again? And then walk out like with comical indignance. Anyway, I love Lost, love Lost, but it is, it is heartbreaking for me to realize that there's no way to really pay homage to Lost without implicitly just proving that it was bad. Okay.

I don't agree. I'm glad you said that and I don't agree. It was a lot of good ideas, like, Loki spent two seconds going down a hatch and it was already more fun and informative than like all of Lost was going down the house. I guess it's just the self-awareness and the willingness to say like, yeah, that's Frog, that's Frog Thor, maybe we'll get back there and not like let me mention a philosopher and send you all sprinting for the street to like to the used bookstore to read about it. I mean, and to not have it pay off. I mean, I don't know.

Still have my copy of our mutual friend just like Desmond. I'm waiting until the end, man. You know? Can't crack it yet. Oh, I just enjoyed this show so... I just enjoyed this episode so much. And part of it was because I got to release some of my lost demons, I think. I think that's an interesting thing to talk about for a second. A couple other things quickly, though. The Man Behind the Carton and the Long Con, both episode names.

We've talked about them before here. Both things said aloud in this episode of TV. We already talked about the Thanos copter as a comics Easter egg, but it actually made me think of the beachcraft in Lost. Oh, yeah. In part because of the placement on the journey to the hatch, but it made me think of Locke. It made me think of Boone.

It made me think of Yemmy, et cetera. We see a shipwreck. That made me think of the Black Rock. We see the box of Roxy Wine. That made me think of all the Dharma snacks. And Roxanne is this looming corporation. When will Roxanne come more fully into the MCU, the way that Raxon has been present in the comics for a long time.

You could even make some stretches to say, like this other, you know, warring faction could draw a corollary there to the others, not this mystery, but the fact that there are these different camps in the void, like on the island, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But to your point about how it means you think about the level of fulfillment that you experienced is a lost fan at the end, I actually found myself wondering,

if that coupled with the episode title, Journey Into Mystery and everything we just talked about about what that might convey, what the purpose of that might be, like if there was something deliberate about this, you know, lost still to this day, catches a lot of heat for its conclusion, for the finale, more broadly for the final season.

To me, and I know that I'm a bit of a lost final season apologist here. Oh, I am too. Don't get me wrong. I mean, it's just great. Here's the thing about Lost. It's great. I rewatched at the beginning of quarantine. It's so much fun to rewatch.

It really is. Of course, it was about the mythology. And of course, so many steps along the road made you invest in that mystery, journey into that mystery, and want to know the answers and want desperately for those answers to satisfy you. For me, though, loss was always primarily about the character journeys. And in a way, this all felt like a deliberate acknowledgement of what the creative team for Loki, what their true goal is, which is to assess those arcs and that evolution for these human beings. But it also felt like a little wink to the audience to say, okay, we know you care about that other part too. And hopefully we can we can deliver on both fronts.

Now, who knows if that's something that's a conscious thought, but that was at least how I perceived it. Yeah, I mean, I agree with you about Lost. I don't think there's any shame in appreciating the show as a show about character journeys. I don't think there's any shame in if the show is just sort of like a kind of philosophical experiment too. You know, I mean, it's a little bit, it's a little bit easy to point at the fact that they had characters called Human Lock and whatever and just say like, well, they didn't earn it. But did they not? I mean, they dealt with a lot of the issues that that people have tried to deal with and failed in other interprets. And by the way, I don't know.

I wouldn't, I don't, this is not a one-to-one in the way some of the other parallels are. But the most interesting part about Loki or like, or the biggest mystery, the biggest, the biggest, issue that this show is raised is a philosophical one, right? Like the TVA, and I'm sorry, I'm sorry, the TVA is like a Calvinist organization. I'm apologies for getting into Christianity here a little bit, but like this whole show is about predestination. And unless this whole thing is a mcuffin. it very well may be if they pull back the curtain and it's like tom hiddleston is sitting there

it raises a lot of questions i talked earlier about like the level of kind of depowering they as guardians and the way they've kind of chosen to present the sort of power scales in different you know throughout the universe but like the way the tv the tv has been presented it's like why are we even bothering to fight thanos if the whole point is like thanos is going to lose and that's and if he doesn't and the tv is going to come kill him right i mean it's it's it's that part of it's really interesting, but that kind of gets far afield from the lost conversation. Listen, I like the flashbacks to Lost. I mean, I like the references. And I'm glad that somebody is taking the show that we love so much seriously enough to reference it. Yeah, I agree. And I think that

that ultimately is the takeaway. Thematically Lost and Loki, as you just said, are interested in many of the same areas of examination, you know, how our past inform our future, how the connections that we forge with each other can spark change. Forging trust. You mentioned predestination. Choice and destiny, obviously, a central theme in both shows. Nature, testing our nature,

finding our purpose, the role that faith plays in our lives. You know, I thought a lot about lost characters and their arcs and things that they said while watching this episode of Loki. I kept thinking in particular about, I've mentioned this on pods before because I love it so much,

but I kept thinking about it watching this episode, but the iconic Mr. Echo line, I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless, and with it, I did my best. Like so much about these characters and this story is about learning to do your best, but also understand what your best can mean and what that can be and how the choices that you make

inform that for yourself and also the people around you and how rebelling against that idea of predestination. and injecting and imbueing life with chaos, not for the sake of it, but to challenge this unnatural and holy order that somebody else is trying to prescribe and insist upon is, you know, the magic and the secret sauce. I thought about the Jack Locke, Man of Science,

man of faith dynamic a lot too, because I feel like increasingly we're seeing that the Loki characters embody that dynamic within, within them for our loki, for Sylvie, we saw it with classic Loki, et cetera, and that's so fascinating and it's so interesting to see that play out here.

And of course, I thought about Desmond and Penny and the constant, you know? Never a bad time to think about the constant. I mean, you could kind of look at the loki's as the folks of faith and the TVA is the science side, right? And, you know, when Owen Wilson says he's going to go burn it down,

that could be the sort of scales out of the eyes moment, right? I mean, that could be the revelation that it was very quiet, but that could be the most important one of the series so far. Let's talk about some of those characters a little bit more. Let's talk about the key themes at play here. Change, particularly in this episode, but as has been the case throughout the season, the way that that connects to choice, finding purpose through connection.

Let's actually start with some of our new pals, some of the variants and how our lives. Loki connects to them, but also what we learned about about them directly. What did you think of Alligator Loki? What's your level of investment in Big Al, man? I like alligator Loki. We didn't talk about him. I don't think we talked about him in the Easter egg section, but that was a hell of a Peter

Pan reference when he bit President Loki's handoff. It made me think of the stretch of phase two, though, of the MCU where because of Kevin Faggy's desire to honor Star Wars every movie featured a character losing a hand or an arm. Got to keep those traditions going, you know? Yeah, that's, that's, that's, yeah, if it's a, does that make it a throwback to Star Wars or reference to Star Wars or reference to phase two of the MCU? In which case, wow, this cycle is getting faster and faster. I don't know if I can really deal with it.

No, I mean, I thought, you know. There was a, there was a, there was a, an admirable piece by Ben Travers. on Yahoo, which posited that Alligator Loki was the actual leader of all the Loki's, and written entirely from that point of view, I was just floored by it. And it's obviously not true, but I choose to believe in this fan fiction because it makes it so much more fun. Head Cannon is one of the most joyous parts of consuming it and fantasy story. So I support it.

I really loved the moment where they say, he's overly sensitive like the rest of us. And Loki's like, hang on. You're telling me that thing's a Loki, too. And his physical response to the, oh, yes, reply, though he lifts his hands up, kind of just stickulates. It's just such an amazing piece of acting. I do have to say, my response across the bulk of the episode was, you know, protect Alligator Loki at all costs.

I formed an attachment immediately, no surprise. However, I must note that I was, of course, appalled to hear that alligator loki's nexus event was quote eating the wrong neighbor's cat that's not something i can abide was that literal i thought that was i thought that was i thought that was just sort of a jab i don't want to think about it and don't want to hear about it protect the cats protect the flurkins still not giving up on all of this being inside of a flurken pocket dimension i love cats I am so I was the conversation about whether alligator loki was a loki both from Hiddleston and from Owen Wilson when he showed up was beautiful and hilarious and kind of

what I love about the show and like I said this is my favorite episode of the show I loved everything about it but it does kind of leave itself open when you're just when you have characters that are so self-aware and then there's like no irony at all about like going to attack the cloud right Like, there's no, there's no, like, human being or conversation about just like, wait, you mean, a cloud can hurt? Like, does it, the smoke is, the smoke zaps you? We did get the great, what are you going to, like, paper cut the cloud to death line from Sylvie? Yeah.

So, we got that. No, no, I mean, you're right. I guess there, I guess there was enough of that. I mean, listen, there's, like, the silliness is what we love about the show. But, but, but, and the, and the self-awareness has to exist side by side. I mean, that's just part of what you get. And it's what it makes the show so great. I, uh, I really enjoy that.

Big Al, just like our Loki, got to enjoy a big metaphor guy, makes you sound super smart kind of moment when on the heels of the shark tank exchange start talking about the alligator tank, oh, there's no such thing as an alligator tank. Classic Loki says, besides, it's a better metaphor. Incredible. And you just mentioned the Mobius exchange. Fascinating overall to actually think about the implications of Mobius saying

he doesn't remember the alligator Loki. And Waldron is really leaning into sparking the theme. theorizing among the fans. You know, he said to Marvel.com's Rachel page, quote, I want people to wonder. I want that to be the next great Marvel debate. Is Alligator Loki really a Loki or not? So there you go.

We have more to chew on, more to theorize. But what Mobius said was not only hilarious and a very compelling little scene and a bonding moment among the characters, but it was thematically quite apt for the entire episode because he said, I don't know, he could be lying. the long con. Of course, that just makes him more likely to be a Loki. It's always the game

within the game with you guys, which I respect. And that kind of assessment of the nature of a Loki, once again, Everpresent is the backdrop against which we can assess this progress and this change.

I loved. Tough showing from boastful Loki who turned on his fellows, handing Kid Loki over to President Loki. President Loki, fun to see for all the Vote Loki

comic fans. That was a delight. Bozful Loki was like such a cool character. He just looked so great the first time he saw him and you were just like the name Bozful Loki

just like got you set your mind working. The stories lived up to the name, you know, hearing about getting taken care of Cap and Iron Man collecting all the Infinity Stones. Good shit.

But I, but I, the, the, um, You mentioned the last episode of Ringerverse. Big shout out to Jomey and Steve, who came in like the Maximoff Twins and just like, you know,

started blowing stuff up. But I agree with everything that they and Charles said. Like, I was more doubtful about boastful Loki being a Loki than Alligator Loki. I mean, what an idiot. Like, the one thing Loki needs to have going for him is that he's wise enough not to get himself in a messed up situation like that.

I guess he's also boastful and proud and maybe oblivious, but I don't know. That was a real misstep on boastful Loki's part. Yeah, the absolute dismay that our Loki expressed while watching all of the Loki variants descend into this battle in the bowling alley hatch was really something to witness. Obviously, you know, also allows him to reflect further on the tendencies that can define of loki and the importance of defying those tendencies.

What did you think of Kid Loki? Because, you know, we mentioned Young Avengers earlier, obviously huge to introduce Kid Loki in terms of what that pretends for future Young Avengers installments. Were you digging the vibe here? Some crucial distinctions between how Kid Loki is introduced here and how Kid Loki is introduced in the comics. I mean, this Kid Loki kills Thor. Now, do we know in that timeline what Thor was like?

Like, maybe that Thor was bad? Yeah, and we don't know if that Thor was. was a kid or if that Thor was a grown-up, we don't even actually know if it's true since we've just gotten through talking about boastful Loki, right? I mean, I guess there's, and the implication that they believe him, but who knows? Yeah, I mean, listen, I'm not a Young Avengers guy in the sense that I wasn't really, I never really read Young Avengers, but I don't have any problem with Young Avengers. And this Loki, I mean, I feel like with child actors, you know within about like half a second

whether or not they're going to like hold your interest in a movie and kid Loki certainly did that so I mean passed that test

so yeah I mean let's you know bring on the Kid Avengers like the young Avengers like whatever let's let's give it a shot I don't I'm just got to say

almost all of this phase of the Marvel universe and especially the next phase was stunning to me like just the decision that they made I am floored at the decision making process. It's not just going back to the 80s, but like, man, they're pulling out comics that, like, didn't sell that they could not keep in print ever, you know? And it's like,

and as a comic book fan, I'm not even, I'm not even a comic book nerd enough to be able to talk about the Eternals with any, like, real, with any real depth, you know? But they're going that route. And I know the Young Avengers were, you know, more of a modern sensation and bigger than that. But I've proven wrong, I've been proven wrong time and time and time again. So if they wanted, Young Avengers, they're probably my favorite, my favorite Marvel universe thing ever, judging by how wrong I've been so far. Here's the thing, though,

with respect and apologies to Kid Loki and every other Loki, this was the classic Loki show. I mean, this was an absolute door to force from Richard E. Grant. A moment of appreciation. Okay, because I thought you were going to say Noah can live up

to Hiddleston. And I was just like, no, just Richard E. Grant, just bring him in, leave him in the leotard. This could be fun. This was so good. I was, of course,

devastated to see, to have to say goodbye to him at the end of the episode, but there was a part of me that was like, no, this is exactly right. This just perfect, contained moment in time

with this revelatory showing that was not only amusing and compelling to watch, but was like extraordinarily moving and thought-provoking. We watched an arc that we have seen, for many characters, transpire over a handful of movies in just that number of scenes. This was riveting.

It really was. I think my favorite shot of the entire show was the movie where it was a moment where the kind of the good guy team up was happening and they all just sort of went their separate way. explicably like high fived and went their separate ways, but it was all worth it because of just to see classic Loki sort of jaunt away in the background in his leotard, just the like the silhouette of him was just so amazing. And I was like, that's the last we'll ever see of him.

And yet he came back and really, and saved the day. And it was, it was definitely cool. You know, I mean, it was a very, it's really hard. I think they talked about this. I think Charles and the guys talked about this in the last episode too. It's hard to do these super battles, right? it's hard to do like magical battles. And what they were able to do with that

was to sort of like institute this sort of distraction, institute an element in which for Sylvie and Loki to really hatch their plan, you know, and not have to construct some just ridiculous, I don't know, just, you know, ridiculous, like, system of belief in which Elias can kill you but decides not to kill you just yet, you know? And besides that,

First of Dary Grant was incredible. There's very few people in the world who could pull off 45 seconds of like facial strain as they're creating a hologram askard and really have you believe it. And he did it. And it was, I mean, you know, the list of people that can scream glorious purpose and have you buy in is probably even smaller than the first group. So, I mean, just kudos to that guy. Well, and that was what was so memorable, memorable about it. Not only the performance in a vacuum, but.

the way that it aligned so seamlessly with the journey and shared growth that Loki and Sylvie are undergoing not only inside of the episode, but across the season so far. You know, I want to break down like a couple of classic Loki's scenes and speeches before we move on to talking about Sylvie and Loki

because I think they're quite emblematic of what the show is interested in exploring and kind of its central mission, really. when Loki first asks him why there are so many of them, why there are so many variants, classic Loki says, because Loki survive. That's just what we do.

Shortly after when Loki says, surely there's something to do, classic Loki says there is, survive. That's all there is, all there ever was. So he's emphasizing that same, really a firm belief, like a worldview for him. Now, that, of course, mirrors what we

have heard previously in this season what Loki said to Sylvie in episode four about surviving, about that central defining trait. Now, that came on the heels of episode three when we got the, what exactly makes a loki-a-loki exchange? The answer was Independence Authority style. In episode four, we had the more heartfelt version of that. Do you think what makes a loki-a-loci is the fact that we're destined to lose, Sylvia asked, and Loki said, no, we may lose sometimes painfully, but we don't die, we survive. Now, when classic Loki delivers that idea here in this episode, pushing forward, the tone is different, of course, the context is different, but it establishes and reinforces that this is a through line for these variants. And the growth that we witness in

this episode comes from that survival instinct, morphing into the blue. in the value of sacrifice, you know, from wanting, as I was as I was saying earlier, to survive purely for oneself, maybe despite other people, to wanting to help others find a way to do so or to survive for them and for the life that you could maybe build and forge with them. And he, like our other loki's, is journeying from, not only into mystery, but from isolation to connection. You know, if we consider one of his primary scenes in this episode, his god of outcasts moment, great speech, which follows a fascinating discussion between classic Loki and Loki about their, what we can deduce are parallel paths to that showdown with Thanos and then they're diverging paths from that point,

or at least we think diverging paths, unless this is here to indicate to us that our Infinity saga, Loki faked his death too. I hope that's not the case. But let's go through some of the things we hear from Loki in this god of outcast conversation. First of all, so something you mentioned already, he trumpets the power of sorcery over weaponry.

And this bears fruit by episodes end when Sylvia and Loki have to tap into their magic, their power, their enchantment to move forward. I loved that. I loved that that was such a natural thing to just say in the flow of them talking about their lives and their experiences and the things that they share, but also that make them different, which again has been a through line of the show and the way that the characters really listened to that and internalized it and then it manifested in some sort of positive change for them right away. I thought that was really cool. I totally agree. Well, first of all, to go back what you just said a minute ago, is the implication

that are we supposed to imply that our Loki faked his own death? I think that's exactly what we're supposed to imply. I think that's, I think that they, I think that was way too on the nose for us to expect anything else. And you're, and what you just said about the movement from, from, listen, this show is really smart and it also tells you what it, it, it will tell you what it's doing if you pay attention. The journey from isolation to connection was the literal journey that Richard E. Grant's character talked about taking, right?

that he survived his battle with Thanos by just going and hiding out in outer space. And then when he was just like, nah, I'm lonely. The TVA was there waiting for him when he came back. So that's like, I mean, that's, that is the journey that our Loki is taking. I just wonder, I mean, you know, I talked at the very beginning of this episode

about whether this was Hidlson's farewell tour. And I think this is where I get really torn up. Because on the one hand, it's really weird to spend this much time talking about a journey to understand oneself and then for the end result of that to be, see you later, right? Like, this is normally, this is normally like act two of the hero's journey or whatever. I mean, this isn't, this isn't the denouement, you know, and, and, and, and also, it's hard to imagine, I don't know, it's just hard to imagine. going through this and reaching this point of connection and having a world without Loki such as he is, but it's also hard to imagine our hero of the MCU being Loki. You know, I mean, the whole thing is just sort of, it's hard to wrap your mind around.

I think that's where they're kind of going with this. But like, this show didn't have to be about Loki the person, right? This show could have just been a vehicle to introduce the TVA and Kang, if it's Kang or whatever else is going to happen at the end. We'll talk about that in a second. But it is very much about Tom Hiddleston's Loki. A second? Time passes differently here.

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Now, listen, we would all be totally fine if, like, if Hidleston, I mean, it would be sad to see him go. We'd all be fine if, like, Sylvie was just the one hanging out in the movies

from now on or whatever. But, like, it would be a weird turn, I think. So, I mean, I'm conflicted. Yeah. It's hard. I mean, I guess one of the things about this version and this phase of the MCU is that we can maybe have it all at once

where we get these offshoot stories and Disney Plus as a platform functions to let us better understand or reflect upon the time that we've spent with characters. And then the movies, I don't know, though. I don't know that it can be that form of a distinction. I think it is a really tough one.

But you're right that that pathway to whatever each individual character's version of apotheosis and how we think about the hero's journey and then the return doesn't necessarily correlate to our maybe shared growing expectation that we're about to say goodbye to somebody. But I think there could be something really powerful about that because part of what I've enjoyed about the beginning of phase four is that it's not just actually about moving forward in the churn of the Marvel machine. And to be clear, like, I love the Marvel machine. I love the churn. It's fun to get all these new stories. But when you've spent a lot of time

with these characters, it's cool to be able to take a beat and take six weeks at a time and reflect and to have the characters do that too. And that, you know, to get back to that the story that we heard from classic Loki and what it teaches us, you know, you mentioned this exile after taking his death and evading Thanos, you know, it was so heartbreaking to hear him say, I thought about the universe of my place and it and occurred to me that everywhere I went, only pain followed. And it's not just sad because that's a very sad thing to hear or realize that a person is realizing about themselves, but because it, of course, causes us to recall what Mobius said to Loki in episode one. You weren't born to be king,

Loki. You were born to cause pain and suffering and death. That's how it was. That's how it will be. Also others can achieve the best versions of themselves. Thinking about, again, through the of the TVA and the sacred timeline, a thing that we think all in agreement is bad and not meant to be, right, and there to protect or secure somebody else's glorious purpose, whatever we will ultimately learn that that is, when he says that he removed himself from the equation

and stayed there and he says, isolation and solitude for a long, long time, like hearing him emphasize how much time he had spent alone. That made me then think of Sylvie. So there's comps from variant to variant, from Loki to Loki, what it must be like not only to spend that much time alone, but to spend it thinking about what the universe or the people who are trying to control the universe want you to believe about yourself and how truly, truly devastating it would be to go through every day feeling that way and not having somebody

there with you to help you feel another way. And then to hear him say that the reason to what you said about the TVA finally springing him is because he missed Thor. He missed his family. He missed all of these people that we can glean. He had been in a state of conflict with his entire life. And he says, I wondered if he missed me, if anyone else did. And I thought that Tom Hiddleston's face in response to that was such a powerful little bit of acting, that nod and that frown. And again, this is the Loki from the Battle of New York, not a Loki that we had seen experience that progress directly with Thor across the rest of the first three phases.

But that you know he felt that way too that so many of the horrible things he did came from this feeling of inadequacy. Now, again, like we said this many times throughout the run of the show here, that none of this excuses anything that these Loki's have done. But it is, it helps explain their state of mind. It helps explain the position from which they are assessing and acting. And so when he says, classic Loki says, we have but one part to play the god of outcast, nothing more, the god of outcasts and the other variants are toasting him with their goblets or the juice box. And kid Loki's case, shots to alligator Loki, by the way,

for just guzzling the wine and his little swimming pool. great stuff, what a life. We have to reject that idea. And it's very fulfilling to see that classic Loki does over the course of the episode. Like, when he helps them escape from the hatch after the skirmish, what does he say? Animals.

Reaffirms once again this belief. Lying, we cheat. We cut the throat of every person who trusts us and for what? Power. Glorious power. Glorious purpose. Cannot change. We're broken.

Every version of it. of us. And that is such a heavy weight to carry in a terrible thing to believe about yourself, to have others constantly try to reinforce about yourself. And the season has largely been oriented around our characters embracing the fact that though they hear that from other people, though they have many times and for much of their lives thought that it was true, it doesn't have to be. They can challenge that idea.

And specifically by challenging that idea. that they're broken, that they cannot change, they will, in fact, change. The contradiction is the way forward, leaning in. And that's why when Loki says in reply to that, you know, that's why I have to get out of here. Nothing can change until the TVA stopped. It's an acknowledgement from him that he knows and recognizes now that it's not actually a matter of nature. It's a matter of circumstance.

and challenging that circumstance and being able to identify that represents a real evolution for him. And so when on the heels of hearing Mobius actually say it's never too late to change and then seeing Sylvie and Loki staring down old Smokey alone, staring down doom and saying,

despite having said like, okay, I'll take you that far, but that's it, right? I'm going to go survive. He changes his mind. And in changing his mind, he changes himself. He uses magic. And I loved this so much. What does he conjure?

He could conjure anything. He just needs a distraction. He could conjure anything, David. But what does he conjure? He conjures their home. He conjures Asgard, their shared history, their shared home as a reminder of where they came from, but not of what they have to be bound by, actually of how far they have come and can go. And I just loved that choice.

and the way that he shouted glorious purpose and laughed and smiled when Eliath came from because he understood finally what that glorious purpose could really be and what form it could take. I thought that was incredible. Yeah, the president Loki looked down the hatch and said, which one of us are you, right? And if the answer is the one with self-awareness, then it's none of the above, right? The thing that Richard E. Grant can provide, his, his victory was allowing our Loki and Sylvie to reach a sort of level of self-awareness that the others have it. Because you said nothing that happens here excuses what they've done before. But the explanation for what they've done before is

to take it back to what I said earlier is predestination, right? I mean, it's the expectation, the, it's when you look at, when you're Loki and you look in the mirror and you say, this is all I've been born to do. This is my role in Norse mythology, and so this is my role in life, right, just to be a troublemaker, you know, and so to sort of evolve beyond that is a really significant thing. The question, though, is whether saying that the TVA needs to get burnt down is actually regression for him, because shouldn't the, like, the, shouldn't the achievement of self-awareness sort of be enough? Right? I mean, isn't like the awareness that you're not with the loki you thought you were, isn't that the victory? Now, okay, this is a comic book and this is a comic book TV show. And so like there's no metaphorical truth without a, you know, villain to represent it on screen. So maybe that's the whole point. But, you know, if you're not bound by what the TVA's rules are, then what's the, then are you really, do you really need to destroy the TVA? I guess you got, I guess you still have to. I guess you're still sort of bound by the rules as long as you're trapped in there's smoke.

Smoke Monster World. So, yeah. Well, I think that's a really interesting question. I have a couple thoughts. One, I think that part of what progress looks like for Loki is moving beyond self-interest, right? And so while I think you're right that in general, that level of introspection and growth can manifest in clarity, learning to love yourself, and that would be enough.

for Loki specifically inside the rules of this universe and this storytelling universe, the desire to then protect other people and help ensure that other people can move forward to is the major distinction from what came before.

I would also say that Mobius is the trumpeter of the let's go burn it down charge, right? And so that's the other thing is like, and we'll, we still have to hit Sylvia and Loki, but let's just, let's talk about Mobius for a second, because Mobius is grappling with his own awakening.

And I thought that the conversations early in the season between Mobius and Loki were so enthralling, in part because, you know, we hear Loki and Sylvie in this episode when they're discussing Mobius and tapping back into that, nobody's ever purely good or purely evil idea that defines all of the characters. or many of the characters at least.

Mobius always told Loki early in the season that it was real because he believed it was real. And so he was a character to get back to the man of science, man of faith idea, who even though, to your point from earlier, was maybe a practitioner of certain tactics that we would think of as reflecting man of science camp, was driven by a blind faith in the TVA's mission, by a strict adherence to the way that he had been making his decisions to that point. I mean, we even hear the characters talk about that in this episode when classic Loki says to him, so just like that, you're turning on the very thing you devoted your life to. And he says, well, it's never too late to change. And that, of course, is one of the lines that gives classic Loki the push he needs.

It reminds us how Mobius has influenced our Loki, who says, thank you, my friend, and hugs him, as they say farewell before Mobius would be to the tempad heads back through the time door, back to the TVA. He also has to believe in his capacity to change and challenging the authority that he spent this span of his existence and not his fault because he didn't know that he was a variant. He didn't know that they had robbed him of his memories,

that they had imprisoned him in this existence. But now he does. And so it is incumbent on him to go and to make sure everybody else can experience that awakening too. I think it's interesting that we haven't seen his memories yet. You know, we got to see C20's memories.

We didn't see B-15s, but we got to watch B-15 experience her own memories. Will we see Mobius' memories? Do you think that there's a chance that he has seen them? Did Sylvie show him yet? And we just didn't see it. That strikes me as unlikely. Because the reason I'm interested in that is,

if he's moving forward with this much certainty without having seen it, it's a reflection, even though he is acting differently and making different choices and actively challenging the way he previously lived his life, he's still doing it purely through the lens of faith. Oh, I think, I think Mobius is, I think Mobius has a different agenda. What do you think his agenda is? Do you think Mobius is going to be a villain? This is a theory out there.

I think Mobius is still working. It's still working for the TVA or whatever the TVA, you know, is going to wind up being. Do you really? Why? Wait, tell me why? One million percent only because of the burn it down. Because that was like something out of a coming of age movie from the 80s that I can't even quite place. but it was just too,

it was just too on the nose. I mean, how is he going to burn it down? What does he think he's going to do when he goes back through that? I mean, it just says it doesn't make any sense. Unless it's going to happen, like, I mean, I could be totally wrong, but I just felt like it was just too perfect a farewell or for those characters for it not to be a tease,

you know, for a misdirect, I guess. Interesting. Well, I mean, there was that. fascinating exchange in the pizza delivery car where Mobius said to Sylvie, all that time I really believe we were the good guys. And Sylvie has that just absolutely incredible response, which is annihilating entire realities, orphaning little girls, classic hero stuff.

And you're like, oh yeah, that's a good note. Good note. But again, to me, that feels like of a piece with the rest of the show, which is, And I guess, you know, mileage may vary on whether this is, this works for everybody. But most of these characters have done terrible things. Sometimes they did that with a clarity, with the full understanding of what they were doing and why. Sometimes that clarity came later.

For many of them, it is about deciding, consciously, deciding to do something different, to live their lives a different way. And I think that Mobius traveling his version of that road is more fulfilling and interesting, actually, than him, than like a twist that he's really bad after all. But I can acknowledge that that's just probably what I personally want as a viewer. I forgot about the other thing. Also, him showing up in the pizza truck, right? I mean, the pizza car, like, none of it makes any sense outside of the context of him being a cog in. this storytelling. And it's either like he is a narrative cog or he as a character is playing a

part that we don't quite that we don't fully understand. So you're like he was pruned. He and Ravona are plow and he mentions a long con. It's it's a clue that he and Ravona are in cahoots playing out a long con together and they will ultimately betray Loki and Sylvie. I would be devastated if that happened. I'm just devastated. I want to go ride on a jet ski with Mobius. That's what I want. I guess I would have a hard time if like their conversations between Mobius and Rivona were not shown to what we didn't get

face value or whatever like we were shown something that was not that was not the truth that that would kind of bug me but but I guess I'm open to the fact that like Ravona doesn't even know what Mobius is up to or something like that I don't know I don't know I just feel like if I had I feel like if I were working with if I had Owen Wilson

and his performance was as great as it was I feel like it's more meaningful I understand everything you said I agree with, but I feel like it's more meaningful just to have let him die last episode. Like, let him die and leave that hanging than to have him come back as this sort of, like I said, like a narrative cog and then show and then whatever. Like anything that he does in episode six could be accomplished by somebody else. So I don't know. Maybe, maybe I'm just. My only response to that is this, you could see the same thing about just leaving Loki dead in the MCU, right? But they

created an entire show or on it all during a timeline just so we could spend time with him because it's magic. It's magic. And Mobius is magic too. I'm going to be absolutely crestfallen if you're if you're right, crestfallen. I will need something better than the TVA iceberg lettuce salad with salt and pepper shaker Ragnarok if that unfolds to calm me. Oh my gosh. What are Daniel and Stephen Jomey going to jump on? I want to find out with if they think I'm crazy because I did like for me that was just so obvious when I was watching it. But maybe I missed your... What do you guys think?

Give us a quick check in here before we get to Sylvia and Loki. Do you think Mobius is bad? Under no circumstance is Mobius the bad guy. How dare you, David, ensue that our man Mobius and Mobius is part of the ops.

Rivona Renslayer is the ops. She is where your ire should be drawn on. Leave Mobius out of it. He did nothing wrong. Free my man's Mobius. I would only have a slight theory and it was flirting with me in my mind when I heard Owen Wilson say the line

about the game within a game and it's something that I respect and I briefly thought could the TVA have stolen one Loki and made him hunt other lokies and what if that was Mobius? Right. So our pal Joanna has been saying all season,

Mobius is a Loki. Like what if what if Mobius were a Loki variant and was really into that theory at the beginning of the season and then briefly thought, okay, well, maybe not. And then this week brought it brought it back for, for those reasons among others. There's, you know, there's some supporting evidence. I did think like that one shot when they're staring down Eliath about to head into this final charge. And it's, it's all Loki variants. And then Mobius. And it's like, wait a minute. That is conspic unless he is also a Loki variant,

though then immediately he's the one who peels off and goes off to pursue his own glorious purpose of burning down the TVA. I just think I cannot accept this. I see the arguments for it. There's definitely compelling evidence. I will be despondent. I really will be.

I'll just say this. I'll just say this to Jomey and Steve, though. Like if you're not in... Not if he's a Loki, but if he's bad, to be clear. If you're not into it now, would you really be that mad if it turned out that the, you know, the man behind the curtain was like 200 Mobiuses? Right? If you, like, really want to go back, if you're, if you're a fan of the old comics, like,

what if they just pulled back the curtain and it was like literally just all these Mobiuses back there? It would be nuts, but, like, you'd have to respect the move, right? Well, I mean, I mean, you know, we've been talking about like can, you know what I'm saying? or even like another Loki, right? If we just put down the curtain and it's, you know, a whole bunch of Owen Wilson variants, you know, Lightning McQueen and whatnot, would be shook, you know? We'd be surprised.

All right, well, yeah, I mean, I don't know. I honestly don't know what's going to happen. I just feel like that's the burn it down scene. Yeah. But the TVA is bad. Like, why? I hear what you're saying. But I thought it was a callback to when Loki first goes

to the TVA and look he's like I'm gonna burn it all to the ground. Bubby's like start with the nightmare department. I just thought it was a callback. I didn't think of anything crazy. I just think, I mean, as like a very basic, I'm complaining about this episode of Lost TV viewer, when they were, when, when Sylvie was like, I'm going to enchant,

we didn't even talk about the fact that she said the word enchant with such power in her voice like 45 times in this episode. But she was, but I just want to say she was going to enchant it. And then they were like, She was like, leave me alone. And our Loki is like, now I'm going to stay. But the other three guys were like, we'll leave you guys alone.

Like, really, is this a plan to change the world in the way that we know it needs to be changed? Obviously, classic Loki had a reason to take off. He had his own plan to help this, to help the plan come to fruition. But I just felt like if Owen Wilson was really, sorry, if Mobius was really like part, like, like in, he would have been like, well, let me wait here in case it doesn't work and I can help you guys or something. It just all seemed too pat. And I'm just, it made me suspicious. That's all.

But they each have their part to play, right? And his is to go, he's is to go back to his realm and his domain and challenge these, like, strictures that are foul to get Ms. Minutes the fuck out of there, you know? And her cruel reign of tyranny. My clock says 1.15. And that's how far we've gone before Ms. Minutes came up. This is much better. I lost this bet.

All right, let's go. Tough, tough development for Arjuna, but we'll be a strong finish for the missed minutes talk. Before we, before we circle back to the, you know, big bad prediction power rankings and run through some of the other candidates, let's spend a few minutes on Sylvia and Loki

and their moments together in this episode, which were once again, wonderful. They're just incredible TV. Just beautiful. Amazing to watch. and watch the two of them talk for hours and hours every week and never tired of it. The entire show could just be Sylvie and Loki talking or Loki and Mobius talking or classic Loki screaming glorious purpose into the camera and I would be content. I need very little less beyond those things.

It's wonderful. When Ravona asked Sylvie, do you have any good memories? What did Sylvie say? Just one really. And that in a show full of heartbreaking moments was one of the most heartbreaking. And what does she do right after that? She self prunes to go find Loki. Does the thing, this is no small thing because she has spent her entire existence since she was a small child brought into the TVA trying to avoid that pruning. Our Loki, meanwhile, can't accept that God of outcast, nothing more idea because he has met Selvie, because they have forged this connection. And when Kid Loki asks him, why are you different exactly? What does he say? no, I'm not. You see, I'm the same really. I'm the same as all of you. And I was really struck by that

because that's actually being able to say that out loud is like massive progress for Loki to see himself clearly in that way to understand who he is, to not actually have the compulsion or the need to boast or try to cast himself apart as superior. Think of how many times earlier in the season. He talked about how he would be the superior Loki. He believes that Sylvie is different. He believes that she can help them all be different to. And he trusts her, truly genuinely trust her and trust, as we've noted, as one of the other central examinations of this season. It is so sweet to see the way that he runs to her when he spots the car and stops just

short of a hug or an embrace. But it's so relieved to see her and to see that she's okay. He's very happy to see Mobius. also quite touching. He introduces the other variants as my friends. It's just so heartwarming, even though, of course, they still have that sparring spark

that is so true to who they are. Like the, as insane as what, paper cutting a giant cloud to death moment that we mentioned earlier, Loki's, listen, I've been down here a bit longer than your reply, which I just thought was so true to the prior form. And it was actually glad that those elements of him

are still present because it helps it not feel like too, drastic of a change that is a thing Loki would say, listen, like I'm a void vet, you know? Let me tell you about the void. I just, I loved that. I was so emotionally wrapped in the scene between Loki and Sylvie that I don't think my brain was working properly.

But hearing you recount it just now, I think that the only just way for this series to end is for one of them to turn on the other one. That would be to me the only thing more painful than what we were just talking about. Mobius being bad. I can't handle it. I can't handle it.

Do you think that that is actually going to happen? Man, if it did, we can't say we were surprised, right? I mean, they just teed it up right here. What is Loki told us throughout the season? Expect the expected. So in that sense, yes. But don't you think that would undermine the thematic examinations and arc of the show.

Given where we started, given where this show started, if Loki, and listen, it's not Loki, it might be Sylvie. I mean, based on what we know, Sylvie could be the woman behind the curtain and the big bad of the season and the protagonist of the season all at the same time.

But if one or both of them turned on, if one of them turned on the other one, and then regretted it for a half second at the very last minute, that would still be a huge leap forward from where we started. Yeah, I think that the way we can get that is if the big bad is ultimately another Loki,

like another Loki variant, the Loki who is trying to control all other Loki's who could ultimately be a threat. I'm very attached to Sylvie and Loki continuing on this journey of shared progress. But, man, ultimately I'll accept any outcome in the finale as long as it's done well. But I'm very attached really more than anything else in the show to the trust that they have forged together,

the belief that they have found in themselves through their belief in each other, ultimately bearing fruit through, you know, the end of the show. And I think that the conversation that that they shared sitting there under the tablecloth blanket was, you know, just the latest bit of proof that this is real. Like their relationship and bond with each other is real, and the growth that it has fostered is real. You know, the look on Loki's face when Sylvie told him that Mobius cared about him

was just this embodiment of supreme appreciation that I found really notable, because again, it's not just about Sylvie and Loki, it's about all of these relationships and all of these connections. and the uncertain flirtation that unfolded between them with the, it's cold, like this expectant look, conjuring of the blanket. He's a little shy when she mentions, oh, you can conjure me a new outfit if you want.

It's just all very sweet. And then when they discuss Mobius's theory about their nexus event, what their connection and its power might mean, they can't allow themselves to believe that that's true. And I think that that makes sense because there's this, like, first of all, just very charming, you know, awkwardness with each other. But they're like on the edge of letting their guard down and believing that their connection could be that powerful and wanting to believe it, but also not being able to because it's such an unnatural thing for them. And the only way they really can is if they find that way forward together. Like when she says, I don't know how to do this.

and he says, I don't even know what we're doing. She says, I don't have any friends. I don't have anyone. Like, they have each other now. And I think an ending, for me, at least an ending that walks that back in any way would be, like, honestly pretty tragic. Yes, I don't disagree. I don't know that that changes my mind. Man, what a dark showing from you today.

I just, I didn't start this way. This show has made me this way. When, when he conjures the blanket or around. Her shield or two, and she says it's not very stuckling. And what more amazing a piece of misdirection could you hope for from a god of mischief than making us feel that way and then it all being a lie? Oh, my God. I can't, I can't abide it.

I think also, like, you know, again, whether you ship it or not, I do. Whether you read it as romantic or not, it is ultimately about finding and tapping into, like, shared belief and a shared sense of worthiness and reliance and trust. And I mean, they talk about this very thing that we're talking about, right? Sylvie says, how do I know that in the final moments you won't betray me? Which is a heartbreaking thing to have to voice aloud because of what the events of their lives to that point have led them to expect about themselves by each other. And he says, I betrayed everyone who ever loved me. I betrayed my father, my brother, my home. I know what I did. why I did it, and that's not who I am anymore.

Okay, I won't let you down. Now, you could say, oh, well, we had moments earlier in this season where, like, take the backstabbing, you've stabbed people in the back exchange in the TVA cafeteria. You know, I'd never do it again. The tone, like the energy and the essence of those two scenes is night and day.

Like, this is a different Loki. This is a Loki who has undergone a transformation. And I don't see them walking that back ultimately. I just don't. Oh, bliss romantic, David. I don't know, man. If I had turned on everybody

that had ever meant anything to me in my life and I was trying to tell somebody, I'm never going to turn on you because you mean so much to me. I think I would say, I'm never going to turn on you, Sylvie, because you mean so much to me. And not, that's not the person I am anymore and I won't let you down,

which can very easily be misread as, I'm not silly Asgardian troublemaker, Loki. I'm now the leader of the TVA, and I won't let you down because in your heart you know this is what all Loki's should aspire to be. I don't think I'm right. I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

I mean, this is... Let's spar, man. Let's talk it out. His declaration is tested pretty much immediately, a couple times at the end of this episode. Like, first of all, there's the moment where she hands him the tempad, and then he hands it to,

And he says, I'm staying. And she tears up in response because it's like he made that choice to stay when he didn't have to. You go, I go, he says, right? And then, of course, in the moment of facing down old Smokey, when she needs more time, she needs a distraction, he puts his hand on her shoulder and he goes and he creates it for her. Like, he is willing to put himself in peril in harm's way, a character who for so long was defined by doing anything he could to avoid. any sort of perilous moment or threat to himself. He puts himself deliberately in that situation for her. I take those positive signs.

Very positive signs. And I hope that that continues to be the case in the finale. And then, you know, when she takes his hand and they're trying to work the enchantment together, I also thought this was really important. Loki has always been so boastful and so proud, right? And what does he say here? He says he's not sure he can do it.

That is not something that we hear Loki voice. doubt. That's a new thing. But being able to recognize that about himself is progress. And Sylvie believes in him. And so for once, he's motivated not by trying to prove somebody else wrong about him, but actually by trying to prove them right to validate the belief that she has in him, the faith that she has in him. You do, she says, because we're the same. And then they find that courage and that strength in each other. It made me think actually of this great line from a book I recently read. Zach Cram recommendation, the once in future witches. There's this examination of what magic really is.

I won't spoil the plot or anything. But it's a great quote. And I found myself thinking of it here. Chosen, if you three were chosen, it was by circumstance, by your own need. That's all magic is really. The space between what you have and what you need. And that's an idea that in misguided or ill-intentioned hands could be corrupted and warped, but that when it is approached through that lens of a bond and a real connection can actually

help you much like with Classic Loki in this episode unlock that glorious purpose. I ship it. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and make it a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. then you'd want a cargo liner or road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer.

You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum Business.

So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. This episode is brought to by Viori. When it comes to close, that score high in both comfort and style, Viori is my MVP. Sunday Performance Shoggers? Oh, yeah. They have the perfect.

watch a game, then go out to dinner vibe. And the metapant, that's my number one. I need to look like I tried option. Get 20% off your first purchase at viori.com slash Simmons and discover the versatility of Viori clothing. Exclusions apply, visit the website for full terms and conditions. Let's talk a little bit more about old smoky, about Eliath, before we get into our final predictions for who the big bad is going to end up being.

And who better to help us do that than the ringer's Daniel Chin, the number one Big Al-All, alligator-lokey enthusiast in this timeline at least. Daniel, welcome. How are you? Doing great. Gator-Loki was not a disappointment at all. I was thrilled. I was thrilled with Gator-Loki. Oh, my God.

You did say that you would not be able to move forward if he didn't speak, but I'm glad that you were able to find happiness. It was honestly way better. Way better that Gator Loki didn't speak. I was totally fine with Gator Loki just like taken down some boxed wine. He prayed. Even better. I couldn't even ask for more. Amazing stuff. Okay. So, Elias, here's what we learn in the episode from Kid Loki. He says, this is the place where the TVA dumps its rubbish, meaning the void. Everything they prune. And Eliath, he ensures none of it ever returns. Both Fuloki adds, it's a living tempest that consumes matter and energy. They send entire branch realities here that are devoured in an instant. Classic Loki says, we're in a shark tank.

Lyap is the shark. That was actually very helpful and clarifying line. And then Sylvie later says, I think the person we're after is beyond the void at the end of time. We see the void at the end of time on the latest bit of Ms. Minnitz animation elsewhere in the episode. Sylvia says, and if they are, that thing is just their guard dog protecting their only way in. So Daniel and Shoemaker, you jump in whenever you'd like here. Give us a brief comics primer on Eliath's role of the story and then connections to Kang, because we cannot ignore yet the latest bit of evidence that Kang is coming. Eliath is very much closely tied with not only Kang, but also just Rivona.

I mean, we'll get into that in a second, too. But yeah, in the comics, Eliath is the self-proclaimed. supreme time being and is supposedly the first being to ever break free from the very constraints of time itself. Like Kang, this smoke monster is just, you know, trying to dominate different realities over time, creating its own like, you know, cross-dimensional, cross-time dynasty. And it's even bigger than Kang's. And in the first comic that Eliath appears in, which is like early 1990s, it was the terminatrix objective, which is, you know, all about Ravona. Like, this is, you know, is like a story where Ravona is like taken over Kang's empire of Chronopolis. And she's like posing as

Kang and then she comes across this like being that's about to come like consume the entire empire. This smoke monster's origins are like, you know, comes in a comic book storyline with Ravona and King himself. Like it's it's all but pointing to the fact that King's about appear, you know. So let's roll right in from that primer to our final predictions for who the big bad is going to be. There are a handful of possibilities. Kang, another Loki, Ravona, Ms. Minutes. David tried to convince us earlier that it will be Mobius.

Any other names that you guys want to throw out, first of all, and then let's run through them, and we'll start with Kang and Ravona based on the Eliath inclusion here and what that might indicate. Anyone else you want to add to the list before we quickly go one by one here? and then everyone's going to have to cast an official vote at the end, just to be clear. Everyone will go on the record.

Yeah, I mean, beyond the fact that the timekeepers, you know, I mean, they may or might not actually exist. You know, they might just be these Chuckie Cheese little, little, uh, androids. But in the comics, at least, the timekeepers are real and they're created by this, the last living creature in all of the multiverse called, uh, he who remains. So I feel like, if they, if they don't want to, you know, pull in this, this character, that's going to be a big part of Ant Man later on, they can introduce. this completely new character on its own and, like, you know, cast some major,

major actor that we don't know of yet. I don't know. Interesting. Can I ask you guys a question, actually? That just, this is not directly related to what you just said, but just for some reason made me think of it. The choice to call the setting of this episode, this purgatorial end of timeline, end of sacred timeline, the timeline is still being written. We're working toward the timekeeper's utopia. I loved when Sylvie was like, seems unbelievable. That was so funny. The choice to name it the void

when there's this established comics canon, when you know that the Marvel fans who are watching it are going to just think, void, Century, Robert Reynolds. Now, there's no reason to think there's any connection to that. And this is very, very, very different, to be clear. But I'm wondering if you think that that was an intentional choice, in any way in terms of maybe how Voiden Century make us think about like the duality within?

There's just a fitting name for that kind of saying. It's a fitting name. And I don't, I'm not going to discount your suggestion. But I do think that there was a little bit, I think there's a little bit of loss in this whole series in the sense that like you can just throw out references and let them be sort of interesting on their own terms, you know? I mean, I don't.

Jacob's sitting on a bench reading everything. everything that rises must converge. Exactly. Yeah. And I think that they're having a lot of fun with different pieces of the Marvel universe. I mean, just the Easter eggs that were in, like, the land between the surface and the, and the underground layer, you know, I mean, that's, one of the most interesting parts of the whole show is, like, imagining getting all of those Easter eggs vetted by, like,

you know, by the MCU brain trust. Like, are we sure we're not going to use Frog Thor? Are we sure about that? You know, I mean, like, it's a, it's a, it's it. I think that there's, I think you could be, you know, meaningful callbacks or meaningful references that aren't necessarily meaningful to like the future of the MCU. Yeah. No, that's, that's a good point.

And in general, when we think about what the void is in this episode and what the void represents about whoever the man behind the curtain, the puppeteer, the big bad, ultimately ends up being, you think it's worth just saying this out. loud and remembering, like, this is a collection of wreckage and desolation, you know, of thwarted realities and timelines and lives, like, which is reminding us, not that we need a reminder at this point that the TVA is bad, but reminds us that whoever it is, whoever is in charge is doing something that is unnatural and wrong. This is a, the setting of this episode is a graveyard born out of somebody's wrong and unholy attempt to control not only their own circumstances,

but reality and time itself. That's bad. Can't allow it. Can't allow it, David. Can't allow Movis to get away. I'm kidding. I don't think that I can't. I don't think it's Mobius. What does Ravona say? We're going to talk about Ravona for a minute. What does Ravona say about the void? She describes it thusly. When we prune a branched reality, it's possible to destroy all its matter. So we move it to a place on the timeline

where it won't continue growing. Basically, the branch timeline isn't reset. It's transferred to where Solve-A asks. Avoid at the end of time, where every instance of existence collides at the same point and simply stops. Like the void is a collection of thwarted life.

This is sick. This is wrong. This is awful. And in that line I was referencing a few minutes ago about the timekeepers are transforming it into Utopia and Sylvie rightly mocks that, you do though have to stop and think, well, what is the actual answer to what they're trying to do? And where does that point us about who it might be? So let's run through the possibilities here.

Let's start with King. I adhere to the Charles Holmes theory of this, that we're, far in to be introducing a big bad except, I mean, that we haven't seen before except by, maybe by name, by reference. It's... Right. But, I mean,

Kang is here. There's no doubt about it, right? I mean, Kang is on the horizon. We just got to figure out, it's just a matter of time before he, you know, becomes a fixture in our life. Yeah, I definitely feel the same way. Like, just because I think he's going to be too big of a part of the MCU later on, and I think that they do want to introduce him

in a movie. But like, to your point, like, they're definitely at least trying to establish King beforehand by like, you know, just the series itself being so much about time travel and these, these ideas of different, all the, all the variance and all this stuff, like so much of it is definitely like paving the way for movies in later on in phase four and beyond. So like I think, I think it's definitely a good setup for it. Yeah, I think that this is like kind of the debate right now is whether Kang would be a satisfying, a narratively satisfying conclusion. Discuss this across our Ring Reverse shows this season.

You know, we talked about it with Alan last week. Joanna's been talking about it a lot and I think quite well. If Kang has not been present in the season and then it all points to Kang at the end, is that fulfilling and rewarding compared to it being a character we have been with this entire time? And that's just like a question you could ask across any story. That's not specific to Loki. I think that that is right. I also think, though, that the volume of signs pointing toward Kang in this episode

and with Eliath and King Enterprises and, you know, something like seeing the living tribunal's head and thinking about multiverse management, like on and on the list goes, when the smoke parts, what do we glimpse there? That sure looks like a castle. Is it Chronopolis? Is it King's Citadel? I mean, it might not be. But there's clue after clue, sign after sign pointing toward Kang too many for it to not pan out in some way.

I think ultimately what is most likely would probably work the best is if more than one thing is true at once. If the big bad ends up being a Loki or Rivona, somebody we have been spending time with throughout the season, and then whether it's a stinger or maybe we get something like 30 second, 10 second, Mandalorian, season two, spoiler, or if you want to hit the fast forward button on your phone starting now. Maybe it's going to be like Asoka just saying Thrawn's name, like something like that where you're like, okay, this is a declaration of intent. This is a promise. And it wasn't what everything built toward, but it's real.

It's there. It's concrete. There have just been too many things for us not to get King in any form. Right now, I won't be disappointed in the season of the show to be clear. Like, this is not a, is it Mephisto thing to me? really isn't. This show is about the journeys of the characters. I just think there's a lot of evidence. And I predict either a Kang Stinger or a Kang mention and then the primary villain being someone else. And my pick is another Loki. I'm disappointed that you didn't mention the

possibility that that was Castle Doom in the background. But aside from that, I generally agree with your points of view. Do you think it could be? I mean, I just think if we're talking about Kang, we can talk about the potential that it's Castle. I don't know. I went frame by fucking frame man. I think it's like 1810 in the episode when Sylvie links with old smoky for a second. I was like trying so hard. It's like, okay, a rock fixture and bright colors in the sky. And then we pan and we see a castle on a rock and what appears to be a brief glimpse of a human. I tried so hard to zoom in and see, but I couldn't discern any actual shape. And I was like, I don't know. Maybe that's just shadow on a rock. And I've just, I've lost it. A turret,

a domed turret. Could it be Cronopolis? I don't know. I love how much of a quick glimpse it is where, like, you really just can't pick it apart, you know? Like, I did the same thing when I was, like, doing my recap where I was just like, all right, what could this possibly be? But it's just like, it's not enough. And that, and that in a nutshell is a difference between foreshadowing and just messing around with Easter eggs, right? Because when you're making the show, you have to know that everybody in the world is going to be pausing and going frame by frame with what, to break down what you're doing. So it's meaningful.

We know that much. We'll find out what it means, I guess. The reason that I think it's ultimately going to be another Loki, a couple things. One, if you look at the trailers from before the season, there are not that many things we haven't seen yet.

But among the things that we have not seen yet, these shots of what appears to be, I'll just say King Loki, like a Loki figure played by Tom Hittleston, who is standing in front of a throne in what appears to be a castle,

like perhaps even in an as- guardian setting. We also, though, have these shots of another kind of castle-like structure that has this almost, I don't know, like marbling on the walls, like a veined pattern on the walls. There's a shot of Tom Hylson walking through a structure like that, perhaps this castle that we see behind Eliath, some sort of like a library-like shot with that same kind of vaning on the wall. We haven't seen that yet, so I think that that will be whatever they, you know, walk into. and maybe that other Tom Hiddleston Loki variant is there. I think that, again, while I'm attached to some sort of king reveal

from an overall MCU canon perspective and thinking about how all the multiverse and timeline stories tie into Ant Man and Dr. Strange and everything else coming, talked about this last week with Alan. Like, A-Loki being the reveal at the end is ultimately the richest and most rewarding, I think, narrative and thematic choice in a show that keeps asking the question,

what makes a Loki a Loki? and where the growth and evolution for our primary characters would stand out in such stark contrast to a loki who was not able to evolve in that way and who specifically actually needed to thwart or prune other loki's because this loki superiority complex manifests in, on the one hand, needing to be the best. And on the other hand, somewhere deep down acknowledging out of that narcissistic tendency that the only real threat to a loki could be another loki. Also, David, you mentioned earlier plans. There was so much talk about plans in this episode, and that's been the case across a couple episodes this season. What makes a good plan? What makes a bad plan?

What's just doing a thing? And when you parse all those lines, you know, if you're loki's, you should always have a plan, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. It feels like it's pointing toward the idea that this grand plan of preserving the sacred timeline would be maybe the plan of, another Loki, a character who's always thinking about what a plan is or what a plan should be. And then, you know, when after a classic Loki speech, Kid Loki says, whenever one of us dares try to fix themselves, they're all sent here to die. That felt like borderline like confirmation.

I thought of this theory that Loki's changing or trying to change is a threat specifically to whoever is behind the TVA. And who better for that to be than a Loki, you know? And even if we get back to that Mobius Long Con idea, the game within the game with you guys, again, Loki. Is everybody here at the end of the world just a Loki? I mean, that's sort of the question, right? I mean, is the TVA exists to do anything, but gather up straight loki's?

What about the scroll we saw way back when? When we... Not in the VoIP, but in the TVA. Though, I mean, as much as this seems to be a show about a billion lokies, it does make a lot more sense of the man behind the curtain. Nizeloki. Yeah, I think so. Do you think that it could be Ravona or Miss Minutes?

We haven't talked about Ravona much. Anything you guys want to, before we wrap, hit on the Ravona front? I am curious, like, how much you believe what she said in this episode? Clearly knows a lot, but also saying I actually don't know it all and need to find out. Yeah, I'm like, I'm really excited to see what happens with their character. Because, I mean, just relating to this whole discussion, too, is like, it seems purposeful that they would choose Rvona to be in the show at all because of her close ties to to Kang and to, you know, all this stuff.

Because, I mean, in the comics, she's not even, like, you know, a judge at TVA. So they've repurposed her in a way where, you know, they could just be bringing in a cool character from the comics that, you know, like becomes like the terminatrix and becomes like this, like, space pirate and all this stuff like that. So maybe that they're just trying to do something on her own.

But it does seem like very, you know, purposeful that they would bring her in. I thought that when she said, whatever the real reason, nothing ever comes back from there. When speaking of the void, there was like an error of regret. about that comment.

And I had been wondering, again, like, how can Kang come into the story maybe without being the ultimate villain of this show? Like, perhaps Kang is an enemy of whoever the big villain of this show is or a thread. There's a competition to control the timeline. And, you know, Eliathus referred to throughout the episode as a guard dog. But guards can keep people in or keep people out.

And who's to say that... maybe I've been thinking about this. I know that this has popped up in a couple other places too. I think they chatted about this for a couple minutes on still watching. Like, what if Ravona needs to discover who is ultimately running things

of the TVA in order to spring king, free king? Like there are so many different possibilities. Maybe there's just not enough time for something like that to unfold. That's definitely possible. And then maybe we're just going to find out, that it's, you know, misminute.

It's like the avatar for whoever is really in charge, keeping an eye on everything unfolding in the halls and in the TVA offices and whoever's behind that avatar is running things from a computer and it all just connects back to Zoolander in the end. I could see that. I feel like Ravona, just to get my two cents in, was not served well as a character by this episode.

There's a lot of interesting pieces, but this can't be, just the, the same thing with Mobius. I feel like whatever happens in the next episode will sort of retroactively validate this episode and we'll be able to understand it a lot more. And so that I would, I will assume that there is another big turn or twist for her character, you know, that's in, in episode six. I mean, she's, she's been like so great in her, the small moment she's gotten. But to me, like, it hasn't been like to this degree of it, but I've been a little bit frustrated with that in the sense that, like, similar to like Sharon Carter in Falcon the Winter Soldier, you know, where it's like you're,

you're kind of, you see what's going to be coming with her in that instance the whole time, except you don't really see that turn happen like till the very end of it. But like, I don't know. We'll see because like she has had more moments and like there has been enough intrigue throughout. Like in all those like great conversations between her and Mobius, like you just know that there's something like looming beneath. Like she's hiding something obviously. And like now hopefully we're going to find out. I'm excited to see what we love. learned about Rivona and the finale, there's only so much time left, both for Loki and for us, we have to wrap quickly. Final thoughts from everyone, what will make this a satisfying finale

for you? When it comes to Rivona or overall, up to you. I mean, here's the thing, are they going to stick to landing is the sort of question here, right? I mean, the landing stuck, right? I mean, the team from this show is writing Dr. Strange. Whatever happens here is already like pre- like, talk about predestination. They're already probably filming 10 movies that are based on episode that you rely on episode six of Loki to make any sense. I mean, the landing was stuck before we hit record today, and certainly before these shows probably started even airing. Will it be fulfilling?

I mean, man, I sure hope somebody that's like throwing in like a sea of lost references in episode five has some confidence in what episode six is going to serve. Oh, man, there's so many ways that this can work. I mean, this whole series has worked based on just the sheer presence of Tom Hiddleston and, you know, the rest of the cast. I don't want to bring up any bad Game of Thrones memories, but like I feel like an hour of people having conversations would be satisfying. As long as they don't just shoot the moon and misfire, it seems like it's going to be okay. But I guess anything's possible. I have high hope so.

Yeah, I have high hopes, too. I'm definitely hoping for some more Ravona. I really would like to see, honestly, Loki being the one in the end. Because to your point, Mal, like, it very much thematically would tie up this whole idea of, like, you know, what makes a Loki a Loki, what makes Loki tick. If, like, our Loki has to come down to this, like, final decision of, like, who he's going to help out and, like, what he's facing and that this is, like, the real threat. Honestly, most importantly of all, I do want to see Gator Loki come back in some way. Regardless of everything else, I want to see more Gator Loki. I love your commitment to this and your passion for Gator Loki.

It's honestly inspiring. My hope, you know, I was struck by the exchange where Loki says, just because it's not complicated, doesn't mean it's bad. Now, of course, Kit Loki responded. It also doesn't mean it's good. But I'm going to focus on the first part of that. Yes, of course. I want satisfying plot resolution.

And we journeyed into the mystery. And I want that mystery to pan out in a way that feels revelatory and fulfilling, that it puts a satisfying, cap on this season of TV and sets the stage for everything that's to come, of course. But to David's point, if we got a full hour of just people talking, I would not only be content, I would be elated because the heart of this show to me has been the conversations and the character arcs. I hope that they, and I believe that they will, because this has felt very confidently constructed throughout, that that balance of plot and character is maintained through the finale.

I think that if it is, and I believe it will be, this will be. very, very satisfying finale. And we will all gather with alligator loki in the little swimming pool, guzzle that roxy wine and celebrate a shared Disney plus experience that we loved. All right, friends, I'm surrounded by variance of myself plus an alligator, which I'm heartbroken to report. I didn't even find all that strange, which means it's time to wrap today's show. Once again, all of our love to our ringer-verse teammate Van Lathan,

please send Van your thoughts. Thank you, as always, to our intrepid producer and timekeeper Steve Allman, as well as Mr. Minutes, Arjuna Ram Gapal, TD, St. Matthew, Daniel, and the entire production team for our help with this episode. Thank you to the Lord of the Memes, Joomi Adon, for his work on the social for this episode. And thank you to the alliance of content, David Shoemaker and Daniel Chin for joining me today. Remember, follow the ringerverse on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Follow us on social.

head back into the ringerverse tomorrow Friday for a Black Widow instant reaction pod. And then join us next week for our Black Widow deep dive and our Loki finale chats. Until then, remember, don't conjure me a tablecloth. I want a real blanket.