The Ringer-Verse - ‘Loki’ Ep. 6: Finale Analysis, Themes, and Theories. Plus, Season Awards!

Episode Date: July 16, 2021

Mallory Rubin is joined by The Ringer's Rob Mahoney to discuss the explosive season finale of 'Loki.' They look back on the success of the first season as a whole and consider its place among some of the best entries in the MCU (03:24). Then they break down the shocking reveal and the great performances that surround it (37:35). Later, they hand out awards for the season (123:16) and Mal is joined by Jomi to answer your mailbag questions (147:10). Host: Mallory Rubin Guests: Rob Mahoney Producer: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal and TD St. Matthew-Daniel Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Restrictions apply. See terms at fanduel.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. I've been where you are. I've felt what you feel. Don't ask me how I know. All I know is I don't want to hurt you. I don't want a throne. I just, I just want you to be okay.

And welcome into the Ringerverse here on the Ringer podcast network. I'm Mallory Rubin, co-host of Binge Mode, head of editorial here at the Ringer. And it is my absolute pleasure to welcome you not only to the Citadel at the end of time, but to join us on the Ringer's Nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. Before we dive in today, a few reminders. We have a lot of Marvel pods up for you right now. Charles Holmes and Musa Oquanga dropped an instant reaction pod for you on the Loki finale. On Wednesday, wonderful episode, check it out.

And we have both Black Widow instant reaction pods from Charles and Open Mike Eagle and a Black Widow deep dive that I recorded with the glorious Joanna Robinson up for you as well. The feed will be dark next week. week. Okay. We're off next week, but we will be back with you the week of July 26th. And remember to follow us. Follow the Ringerverse on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us across our social channels. And bear in mind, as always, our friendly neighborhood spoiler warning. This podcast will contain spoilers from the Loki season one finale for all time always, as well as details from the entire MCU run to date. So proceed with more.

caution than Miss Minutes did when she scared the shit out of all of us in the opening minutes of the season finale. What was that? Terrifying. Joining me today to discuss the horror of that moment and the glory of this episode. Now that he's finished selecting the apple that he intends to snack on in the void at the end of time, it's ringer staff right of Rob Mahoney. Rob, welcome back into the ring of verse. Mal, it is delightful to be here.

I have to give you, as far as another spoiler warning, I know everything that's going to happen in this podcast. Everything. Can you show me the printout so that I believe you?

It's just your outline, but if we need to do that, we'll do it. No, never show anyone the outlines, Rob. We have so much to discuss today. We have so much to discuss today. I'm honestly,

I'm feeling euphoric, Because this was such an incredible episode and season of TV. We have so much to discuss about the finale, about what it means for the MCU, about the season as a whole. We're going to talk about the finale. Later in the episode, we're going to hand out some hardware, our season awards.

But I just want to start with our overall thoughts on the sixth episode of the first season of the third Disney Plus TV show. What do you think? I mean, I feel like we can say now that this was the fullest, most complete character work that Marvel has done to date. I feel pretty confident in saying that. I just thought it was a wonderful execution of Loki as a character in a story that really fit him because it had at least two pretty huge swerves in it. You know, it kind of looked like it was going to be a buddy cop act between him and Mobius at the start.

Then it turns into this much more introspective thing with him and Sylvie. And then we obviously get this incredible turn in the finale that recenters the entire narrative, changes the entire MCU, cataclysmic event. And especially coming off of the other two Marvel series, it's just so satisfying to get something that's so genuinely surprising

from a show that's been dissected and poured over on this podcast and many others. I mean, we get to the end of the line in this episode, literally the end of time,

and the villain's master plan is already done. It's already done. So we're just kind of left to see how our characters deal with an ultimatum of shitty options. And that means we get to see

who they really are, which is something that with these kinds of big IP laid-in projects, we just don't get that very often. Wonderfully put, couldn't agree more. This was a delight. This was a joy to watch. Stayed up till midnight.

Midnight gal over here. And I got to tell you, fucking loved this finale. Could not sleep afterwards. Not sure how much of that has to do with my new life as an insomniac and how much of it was specific to the experience of watching this. episode of television, but, you know, why not both? Little column A, little column B. Exactly. I genuinely could not, and have not,

stop thinking about it. It's been a treat to rewatch it. I really am looking forward to rewatching the season as a whole. I think that this was clearly the best finale from the three Disney Plus Marvel TV shows. And for me, it was the best series. You know, I really enjoyed Wanda Vision.

I liked Falcon a lot, though. I was not a fan of the finale. This was like on another level, really from start to finish, but so much, I think for so many fans hinged on that question of, well, how would it finish? And what they achieved in this episode was the product of a lot of things, right? but the ability to deliver on both the plot and character fronts and to not have one compromise the other.

This episode and this season advanced the mythology massively, not only inside of this sliver of story, but across the MCU, without compromising the heart and soul of what has made this show home the entire time. They rewrote the Marvel Universe through conversation, through discussion between two people, three people. Couldn't stop thinking about Tyrion and his quote about conversations and elegant rooms. That's what this was. And I honestly could not have loved it more.

I mean, it was an incredibly elegant office slash throne room. Whatever we want to call, whatever it was. We're splendid. Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. But no, I think you hit the nail on the head with the plot. character simultaneous advancement. It's such a hard thing to do in television. And again, I don't want to harp too much on comparing this show to the other two Marvel

shows, but even look at something like Wanda Vision, which I think is largely pretty successful. But in the end, they just couldn't help themselves from excusing Wanda and all of the terrible things she had done in the finale. They sold out the character advancement for the plot. In this show, I mean, they call Loki and Sylvie what they are, which is hypocrites and villains. and then they blow everything out,

and we get to spend the next decade or so sorting it out, which is pretty exciting. Yeah, you know, on that point, since you mentioned the other shows, like we do have to, I think, acknowledge the fact that Loki and the Loki finale, again, had that air of, I think, real excitement and anticipation, right? There was so much hype. But dread is probably too strong of a word,

but maybe like collective desire and real, like, hope that this would not fall short because it had been such a pleasure every step along the way. And, you know, how much stock to ever put into these, you know, narratives that take over when we're talking about pop culture, mileage may vary, right? But I think that the Marvel finale problem talking point has been very, very, very, very, very prevalent recently. Again, I thought the Wanda finale was okay. I think I liked that more maybe than many people did.

It was not at the same calibers, the other episodes in that show, but it didn't undercut or diminish what I had enjoyed about the show. I thought the Falcon finale was quite a bit poorer than the other installments throughout that season. But here we not only got a finale that, again, not only like honored the character development to that point, but really pushed it and propelled it forward in this seismic, meaningful way, but that's steered in to the skid of the culture around the shows, the theorizing.

You know, that's so much of what we collectively talk about when we talk about how one of these finalees or how any television installment, And this goes well beyond Marvel. You know, you can talk about the conclusion of any number of shows, whether they let people down or live up to the expectation when you're talking about something that is so entwined in fantasy, storytelling, and a mythology. It's, well, did you get the answers to your questions?

Did your theories bear fruit? And so the thing with this is they did it, Rob. They did it. They went for it with Jonathan Majors. He who remains, I'm sure we'll both call him Kang 500 times. We'll issue all appropriate caveats about the distinctions and the amalgamation that Marvel has put together here. We'll get to that later. We had all spent weeks talking about whether we were going to get Kang, who we know we'll be in Quantummania,

we know Jonathan Majors will be playing, whether we would see majors in this season of TV. It was one of the most dominant discussion points of the entire journey. nine minutes and 20 seconds in, the elevator doors open and there he is. They went for it. And it's not just that they went for it. They nailed it. They gave us what we dreamed we might get, but couldn't quite believe we would. And it still managed to feel like a shock and a surprise despite a month and a half of discussion leading up to that point. It was a thrill. Like for everyone to guess and anticipate and wonder, and still gasp aloud, that's a pretty hard thing to do. And when he remains says, not what you were expecting, hmm, that felt like a line. And there were many of these meta moments in the episode, which I always love.

That felt like a line that was there specifically for us, for the audience, for the viewers, right? Like, think back to what Loki said earlier in the season, expect the expected. But when you expect the expected and it still delivers, you're watching something pretty special. I think they timed it so perfectly. I don't know how deliberate that was or if it was just some good luck, how it all unfolded,

but in the way that you laid out, everyone guessing that Ken could be involved. Like, it just makes sense in terms of the scope of the story and what is happening. He could be involved. But then you get five episodes into a six-episode show, and he hasn't shown up yet, and it's natural to kind of give up that ghost. And the idea that they would have the confidence to hold him this long into the show, but set it up so well at the same time thematically and in terms of the ideas that would ultimately carry this finale.

and then just to get, I mean, one of the best MCU performances we've seen to date from Jonathan Majors, which... Unbelievable. I mean, if you're going to pick somebody to potentially have thousands of multiverse counterparts, I think they picked the right guy. Yeah, I think that one of the words that, you know,

we all like to reflect here, right? It's important. One of the lessons of Loki, let's look inward and try to grow. I overuse the word iconic, Rob. I'll admit it. Okay? Wow. However, this performance was iconic, instantly iconic.

And I think a performance that will stand the test of time, in part because of what you just said, the variations that are sure to calm as we meet all of these different variants. But you said something, you used the word confidence a couple minutes ago. And that was what I just felt so palpably watching not only the finale, but really all six episodes, I think you feel it most in how it culminates. Right down to the season two stamp, you know?

Hey, you're getting more of this. We know actually where this is going. We know what we're doing. We have a plan. The total confidence and command of this story, the writing, the direction, the scoring, the set design, the acting, every choice felt,

so intentional and right. Now, as any show perfect, of course not. Like, I don't want to go so far into the sweeping hyperbole that we lose sight of everything. Like, not everything in this episode and not everything in the season was flawless, of course. But real credit to headwriter Michael Waldron, to director Kate Heron, and to the entire team for having such a clear vision here and such a grasp on how they wanted to do this. And so much of that hinged on, again, that conversation-centric approach to structuring each episode. We've talked about this over the course of the season. Like, this felt so consistently like theater.

It felt like you were watching two people or three people or however many it might be in a given scene sitting up on stage talking about the meaning of life, talking about the nature of connection, talking about evolution and growth. And in the best fantasy stories, like for me, the ones I love the most, the ones that linger with me,

the ones that I think about the most in return to, the familiar is inextricably entwined with the surreal, with the fantastical. Like, that's what makes a story so good and so lasting. And so the conversations that these people are having ultimately have very little to do with time travel or the multiverse. They're talking about whether they can believe in each other

in themselves. And the balance that you have to maintain to allow those things to exist in harmony, no matter what the pairing is on screen at a given moment, no matter what room they're in, what planet they're on, what moon they're on, whatever the where, what void they're in, if there's an alligator, drinking wine and a pool.

To be clear, I've never been fully in the like, why does Marvel always have to do the big set-piece finale camp? I'm kind of like, those are fun to watch. I'm pretty dope, right? But they didn't need that here. Didn't need to shift to some sort of mass battle. I mean, we got a little bit of sword play, right? But ultimately, conversation and character carried the day. I think in terms of whether the

finale's that are big punch fest work or not, it depends on if it's consistent. Where do you stand on that? I mean, I think most of them are less than successful, just because I tend to like the other parts of the movies better. I think Iron Man 3 is maybe a perfect example of this where I think the first two acts are really good and that it turns into an action figure commercial for reasons I cannot explain to you. But especially with this story, it would have felt like selling it out if there was a huge fight at the end. After all this conversation, after all the talk about how that's what these characters do, that's who that's who Loki is, is he's a guy who schemes and talks and quips. If he were to, if there were to be some fight against some big

bad, it just would not have worked. And so I think the show does deserve a lot of credit for knowing what it was. They didn't try to tell a story in the first two acts and then completely punch and stab their way to some kind of resolution in the third. The most violent thing that happened in this finale was just a complete emotional betrayal between Loki and Sylvie. Like that is a violence that we do not see often in the MCU. And I thought it was just much more effective than as much kind of CGIed people jumping off of planes to punch other people.

I kind of prefer this rat if I'm going to pick and choose. Where does this rank for you? Not among the three Disney Plus shows, because I think that's clear already. but overall across the MCU. You don't have to give like an exact number, but... I have an exact number, but you're testing my recency bias. Like I tried to make as accurate a list as I could in this moment, and I have to say personally,

I only have two things that are definitively better than this in the MCU. Holy shit. Yeah. Really? Yeah. Winter Soldier for me is the best MCU movie. Thor Ragnarok is number two for me, and I would put this up against... pretty much anything else.

Wow. That's, you know what? I don't mind it, Rob. All right. I don't mind it. I mean, I think for me, it's definitively in my top 10 overall. Yeah.

And it's creeping near that top five mark. I'm with you. Winter Soldier's also my favorite movie. I have, you know, Infinity War, Ragnarok, rounding out the top three. The list always gets really hard for me after that. There are so many that I love that are close. clustered right there. I won't go through my whole agonizing, anguish process of making lists and distinguishing

between best and favorites, which you yelled at me for on Slack the other day. You wouldn't dare. You would not dare. Well, I would dare, and I have dared on podcasts many times before, including when I ranked all of the FCU movies on Pinchfote Marvel. And it'll shock you to hear issued about 57 caveats along the way. So I, unlike you, will not be sliding it exactly because I think for me it's still, some of it ultimately will depend on like what comes next.

And that's one of the things I love about the MCU is that it's always evolving in real time and the way that we process each of these stories. Some of that is kind of fixed and eternal and some of it shifts based on what has come after or where we are in our lives and how we're seeing something differently. But again, definitively top 10,

pretty close, I think, to that five, six-ish range, like end game, Black Panther. is Loki right there? I'm not ready to say yet, but I think it might be. Here's what I will say. Yeah. I'm going to try not to like break down into tears

before the 30 minute mark of the pod. Don't roll out some tears later though. If I can, if you'll forgive me like a very earnest moment here. You? Really? Oh, God. A show like this.

Like, Again, experience, like, watching this finale, watching this series is why I love stories. It's why I love being a fan of stories. It's why I love talking about stories with other people who love them too. I will be, like, returning to this one, I think, for quite some time over the course of my life. And that's like a special thing to feel right away. That connection, not only to the material itself and the characters, but to wanting to share it with other people.

And, like, the community that sprung up around watching Loki, that's always one of my favorite things about this. You know, it was, like, no matter how tortured, I still am about the end of Game of Thrones, it's why Game of Thrones will always be. I mean this sincerely, like, one of the single most important things that's ever happened in my life, right? Because of what it meant for me

and talking about it with Jason and talking about it with everybody else who was experiencing it. And, you know, the monoculture nature of Game of Thrones is obviously like a pretty unique thing. But it's been really cool over the last couple of years with the Mandalorian, Shouts to Grogo now and always, with Loki to like feel this real surge of shared joy and experience.

I just am really grateful for that. And so I can't wait for season two. I can't wait for the rest of what's to come now that we are in this next phase of MCU's storytelling. And that's what I want to talk about next for a few moments, unless you also want to say something very heartfelt and sappy. I mean, how am I going to top you in that regard? But I do think, I mean, part of the reason, part of the reason Loki paid off the way it did, I think, was because there were these incredible reveals and these incredible turns at the end. and when it kind of looked like it was going to be a fun diversion of a show

that it was going to be something to set up other things in a much more indirect way and that they caught us when we weren't looking that we had again given up that ghost as far as this kind of development and this sort of story it changes the complexion of what these Disney Plus shows are, it changes the

experience of watching them it just it changes everything as far as what the Marvel product is. Now I have to ask if you're the person writing the Loki tweets it changes everything everything is about to change. But it's true, right? And when we think about what the conclusion of season one of Loki means for the

MCU moving forward, I think there are many ways of looking at it. But there are two primary things to assess here. The first is the MCU Disney Plus television experience. And the second is, obviously, the impact on the stories themselves, like how what happened here might impact the show, and movies to calm. But let's tackle the former first. The MCU Disney Plus TV shows matter as much as the movies now. Like that's my takeaway from this. This is one of the most consequential occurrences in the history of the MCU. And it happened on a Disney Plus TV show. It happened in

episode six of season one of the third Disney Plus show. That is a massive, massive development. And again, you like, I love to always think about those little meta-line. and moments when he who remains says, wow, I love this. I love all this honesty, feels like a fresh start. That feels like a fresh start line is another one. Like that's there for us. That's an acknowledgement of the magnitude of what's happening. And I think for me, like, it's pretty exciting.

Shocking. Are you surprised by it? Actually, is it shocking? Because, you know what? I'm working through this in real time with you, buddy. Like, there's a part of me that's like, wow. the shows matter as much as the movies now. And then there's a part of me that's like,

well, of course they do. You know, look at the number of stories we're getting here. Look at how all of this is going to connect. Think about the way that comic book storytelling works, what the appeal and opportunity of a connected universe is. I think that the shows have felt distinct from the movies in ways that is really valuable. I actually hope that there is that ongoing specific identity

and feel for each of the platforms, that's appealing. But the fact that these seismic landscape-altering developments can occur on the Disney Plus shows, I'm actually not shocked by that. Like, it always seemed possible to me that Jonathan Majors could show up here. Like, why not? I always just thought they might play it a little closer to the vest for this first batch of shows. That this would be kind of like, okay, let's get you used to what this looks like. Here are some of your favorite actors.

Here's some cool stories. and then let's go back to the movies. But you're absolutely right that obviously these shows matter at a level that is on par with or in the case of the, in the case of this story, probably far greater than a lot of the Marvel movies in the grand scheme of things. But how they matter for casual moviegoers is,

that has to be a big question. And it depends on how Jonathan Major's character, again, let's call him Kang. You know, we're buds here. We can just us and Kang hanging out. How they want to introduce him in his next movie appearance I think is going to be crucial. Because if you look at

how they introduced Thanos, for example, with some like dream cast-ass CGI in a stinger, that's how we got introduced to a villain that ultimately became a really important character

and one of the most well-developed characters in all of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. And that was how he started. And so this is our introduction to Kang. And then on screen

it's a little bit more of a jump-started, streamlined into the flow of whatever story that is, I guess it presumably would be Ant-Man. I think there's a way

to pull that off where all of this is building on our knowledge as, you know, the total nerds who are obsessing over this stuff. But if you're just a casual moviegoer who wants to see, I guess, Ant Man, then you can have a good time and at least piece together what the mcuffins are. To that last point about Ant Man, there's a lot of stuff coming out between this and quantum mania a lot. And that's kind of fun to talk about and think about for a minute. Now, obviously, like, we don't know. We don't know exactly what. what's going to unfold in each story. But I think, you know, another line that felt like it was there for the audience.

I mean, every line in a show is there for the audience. But you know what I mean? When Bobia said, I think people are ready to hear a little truth now. It's like, all right, it's time for the multiverse. Like, we are changing the fabric of the MCU experience. So where does Loki season two? fit in to what is going to come. Because can Loki season two pick up exactly where this left off?

Like, I don't want to miss a second, right? I don't want to miss a second of what is going to happen for these characters who we just spent these six episodes with. But there is so much on the slate, this bounty of content, man. What a time to be here in the Ringiverse talking about these stories. will the next two films on the slate, Shang Chi, which is coming out September 3rd, and Eternals, which is November 5th,

have a multiverse element? I hadn't previously thought so, but I don't know. Will it now feel weird if they don't? Then you go to Spider-Man, No Way Home, which is the next film that's in December. A lot of, I mean, this is not, these are not leaks.

This is just flat out reporting on the cast. it seems, I would say, clear that that's going to be a multiverse story, right? And then Dr. Strange in the multiverse of madness, which of course Michael Waldron is writing the script for it, that comes out in March of 2022. So that's before Ant Man and the Wask, Quantum Mania, which comes out in, that's currently set for February of 2003, and that's the movie that we all knew Majors was cast for to play Kang. And there are other movies too, right? That's just some of them.

Like, is the Marvel's going to have a multiverse connection, love and thunder, Wakanda forever? And that doesn't even get into the television shows, right, other than Loki season two. Like, what if is the next Marvel TV show, is that going to be less the comics rendering these alt histories that we thought? And variant timeline storytelling, that's, you know, not only seems possible to be, but now seems extraordinarily likely. So I can't imagine that despite the clear connective tissue to Ant Man and Quantummania with majors, that we're not going to get a lot of updates and connections to what just happened here between now and then, because 2003 is a lot of stories from now. And there's no date attached at all to Loki Season 2, right?

Not a public date as far as I know, no. I hope we get one soon. I know, but it's hard, but it's hard to slot it into the calendar for all the reasons you just described. Like, I can't believe that we get it in 2022. It seems like it's going to be at least further out than that, especially with all, everything we've said about the confidence and the deliberate nature in which that show is made. That's not something you just throw together, especially when you're dealing with multiverses and multiple timelines and the absolute chaos of this. You have to tread very carefully. It's going to be interesting to see how many of these are connected.

And, you know, to your point about just the moviegoer. This has been a discussion, but for some time. This is not new, but it's probably more heightened than ever. Like, can you dip in and out? Maybe not. Is that okay? In some ways, that probably makes the overall experience feel even more rewarding and rich and immersive.

And then for people who don't want to spend all of their time watching marble shows, it's maybe like, man, it's hard to keep up with this. But, you know, one of the things I actually loved about this episode was the opening credit sequence because we got that auditory montage of MCU past, right? And that was this other, like, very effective bridge and reminder of what we were moving from into. Well, MCU past featuring Maya Angelou, et cetera, et cetera. Well, yes, certainly stitching together some MCU soundbites and characters with actual real world history and quotes. The first thing we hear, though in that opening sequence over the, you know, Marvel wordmark into the opening of the episode.

The very first thing we hear is Cap and Peggy's song. It's been a long, long time. And I got shills. Way to go, Tick-Tack. That's how you punch. Well, God, no, you wouldn't have heard of me. I'm like the gentleman. Dance off, bro.

He's a friend from work. I can do this all day. Yeah, I know. I'll show you for us. I have further faster, baby. Like, my husband and I were sitting on the couch and we gasped and we turned to each other eyes wide. And it was like, you just knew right away that you were going to see something special. I just loved that.

You know, these relics of the MCU's Infinity saga, this reminder of that time spent and how precious it was, how meaningful it was, the spine tingling injection of it. But ultimately, it was there not purely as like a totem to that, but as a, transition as a portal into, you know, our own time door, into everything that now awaits. I mean, we moved into that opening sequence, that gorgeous, it's a beautiful episode in that gorgeous opening sequence, like, in space, across time. You know, as you mentioned, the fictional characters mixed in with sound from real history, real people. We heard from, you know, Loki, Sylvie in that stretch to vision. And we hear, we think of time. as a one-way notion.

And then we see the time stream moving around the Citadel. And the music, the gorgeous score is like surging this past meets present, meets future. But wait, actually, what do past, present and future even mean? Where's time meeting it all? Interlude. It was just this really, really great MCU moment. And so much came after it. of real consequence that I just wanted to celebrate it for a minute

because I thought it was a really cool opening note for the episode. It was wonderful. And I mean, I want to air one concern about this whole deal, the whole multiversal time travel, et cetera, deal. Does all of this free range time travel, are we creating a, and I realize the gravity of what I'm about to ask of you, are we creating a time turner problem here where you, You introduce this device that is very hard to put back in the box.

Because once you establish that Kane can go anywhere he wants across multiverses at any time, it becomes very hard for good guys to make any kind of plan, you know, without being interrupted if he wants to interrupt them. It's a fair question. Time Turner, you went there, huh? I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Well, you know, sometimes you got to destroy. the time turners in the Department of Mysteries and then just really just enter a period of,

oh, boy, that's perplexing when one surfaces anew in a much later tale. I'm not worried about that because I think that the upside of time travel storytelling in the fantasy universe is really, really high. And what is it, what is not. necessary is a plan, right? And an understanding of, because the rules can vary. You know, one of the moments that I loved in Endgame ahead of the time heist was because it was almost like whether the rules of the time heist made sense for you or not was less important than the fact that they had an active conversation inside of the movie about

how the time heist was going to work. Like that's the key to me, is working, and it's always the key, whether it's time travel or any other aspect of the mythology, establish the rules. of the universe and then operate within them. Now, you could fairly say in response to that, well, how would that align with the fact that we're probably very rapidly entering a realm of the MCU where what we understand about time travel

differs greatly from what we had previously understood inside of the MCU about time travel? But I think what I would count on is because the overall, the true, the true he remains, the true timekeeper and time lord Kevin Feige has, I have to assume, just seize the board, right, and knows what they're trying to do. And then, you know, working with people like Waldron who have such a feel not only for the heart of a character arc, but for how to entwine it with these aspects of time travel and sci-fi.

Will it vary movie to movie? Maybe. Maybe, probably. But I think that there, even something like having Waldron do this and then write Dr. Strange gives me hope, right? Because you're not hopefully just going to have something where every movie or show creates its new branch, right? Not only inside of the story, but of storytelling possibilities. And then the next thing has to account for that. Like, hopefully it will work. But also, maybe at some point the MCU becomes so vast that not all these things have to connect.

And the other reason that I'm okay with that, even though that gives me a little bit of like anxiety, I'm a little bit more in the order camp than the chaos camp, you know? Not in like a pro-Rivona TVA way, though, to be clear. Well, let me say this. I do think in terms of the product, as you just laid out, the fact that every movie can spawn its own branches, I'm actually probably on the more optimistic side of that as far as what it's going to mean for the consumer experience. Because I do think the sheer volume that you laid out of what the Marvel universe is going to be, the fact that there's so much of it

and there's so many branches, I think releases certain audiences from feeling like they need to have seen the last five movies. If the next Black Panther takes place in its own side of the multiverse, then you can just show up and watch Black Panther, and that's fine.

Well, and that's what I was going to say is like, there's something about this that just feels very true to the nature of comic book storytelling. Absolutely. More so even than how we think about a cinematic universe

or superhero movies, like certainly some people read every comic book that has ever been written, but that's not necessarily the primary mode of consumption, right? You find the titles and the pencils and the pencillors and the writers and the characters and the arcs that you're interested in. And if you're interested in catching up on something or finding your way in, then you find your way in. You find your starting point and you go from there. So at some point, it does become basically impossible to count for all aspects of it. But there's an aspect of that that's like overwhelming. And then there's an aspect of that that's just purely exciting because it's, it's more of the thing that

we love. What the saturation point is. I mean, I guess we'll know it when we see it, but I don't, I don't think we're there yet. Yeah, whatever concerns I'm airing right now are couched in the fact that my brain is on fire with the possibilities of how fun this could be, all of this stuff. This episode is brought to by WeatherTech. Everyone knows when is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need weather tech floor liners in the summer, unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer.

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But we can hope that we're going to get a lot of Jonathan Majors in them. It is time to talk about he who remains. Is he going to be in like every Marvel property moving forward? I would find that delightful. It's a good way for Marvel to solve their villain problem. Make him the villain in all the movies. We mentioned earlier that we were probably going to say Kang a lot. and then we would issue some sort of caveat about whether that was acceptable.

So here it is. Jonathan Majors Kang the Conqueror is here in the MCU, even though he sort of isn't. We never heard the name Kang in this episode, right? We got some nice hints and winks and nods and illusions. He says, oh, I've been dubbed many names by many people. a ruler, a conqueror, and he really emphasizes conqueror for all the Kangheads out there. He who remains a jerk, but it's not as simple as a name. And Miss Minutes had, of course, said previously of he who remains,

he created all and he controls all. At the end, it is only he who remains. there is no confusing, however, what this means, right? Because again, we know that majors has been cast to play Kang and Quantum Mania, all of the hints across this season, all of the direct overt illusions

inside of the episode. He's in the Citadel, which, yeah, he who remains has a Citadel, Rob, but you know who else has a Citadel? Gang has a Citadel. He's surrounded by statues all in the Citadel. makes you think of something like the Council of Kings. He is describing an origin

that is clearly and directly in line with the comics Nathaniel Richards origin. He who remains is a different comics character, and so that is a MCU shift, which is very much in line with how the MCU approaches things like this, right? But then if you have any lingering doubt, okay, well, are we willing to allow out to basically say Kang is here? Let me reach you a quote from Michael Waldron.

Okay. And this quote comes from a little website called Marvel.com. This is about as official as it gets. This is in Rachel Page's piece this week. Quote, we knew that we wanted this show to be huge and we wanted it to really end with a bang and have a huge impact on the MCU moving forward. knowing that King was probably going to be the next big cross-movie villain,

and because he is a time-traveling multiversal adversary, it just always made so much sense. I came up with that big multiversal war mythology and pitched it out in the room one day to our producers, and they said, yeah, let's go for it. I love that so much. We knew we were going to end up meeting the man behind the curtain, and then it was just on us to make sure that the meeting really delivered.

So we will call him, He Who Remains, we will draw those distinctions. We acknowledge that those distinctions are there, which variants we get, all the different versions that we're going to meet. But Nathaniel Richards, Kang the Conqueror, Immortes, Iron Lad, we're going to meet them all. And so I think we can safely and fairly say Kang has been introduced to the MCU. also the statue at the end, that's king. I think we can also safely say,

yeah, it really delivered. Oh, yeah. That part worked out. Should we do like 30 seconds of some comics mythology here? Is that helpful for people? It's helpful for me. So much. There's rich and varied.

As many variants as we'll surely be meeting here on the MCU is that that's how many variants to be able to find across the comics. Again, he who remains is a different comic's characters. and in fact is the director of the TVA from the Citadel at the end of time, not King. This is a mash-up. But Nathaniel Richards,

who becomes King the Conqueror, 30th century, Earth, future Earth, right? Much like what we hear here. The other iterations we already mentioned, Amortes, Iron Lad, I'm very hyped about because there's the one of now infinite Young Avengers tie-ends here. Romethut, Scarlet Centurium, descended through the Reed Richards line.

There's maybe a descendant of Dr. Doom. Actually, Jason was tweeting about the Doom possibilities the other day. I think the Doom thing is picking up Steam. A scientist, a genius, a time traveler, and a time lord, an adversary. Connections in the comics to The Avengers, Fantastic Four. Amortis has some very fun, well, by fun, like incredibly fucked up, comics lines with Wanda with Scarlet Witch. So there are a million ways that this could manifest.

best. Again, different what we see here from what is in the comics, but the correlaries and the pathway forwards are, I think, very clear. Regardless, though, it's time for Jonathan Major's Appreciation Corner. We might need more than a corner. Jonathan Major's appreciation Citadel. I mean, the real estate market for Citadel's right now is tough, but he deserves it. He deserves his own Citadel separate from the one he already has. I have a question for you. It's not one that is answerable, but I'm throwing it out there.

How did this not leak? Like, I am astounded, especially given the volume of speculation, that this was a complete locked down surprise and shock. It made me think of, and it's not the same because Baby Yoda, Grogo, was just this new thing. And there was no way anybody could have known, but it was still amazing that it had not leaked, right, either through like, you know, the typical merch reveal, and they obviously did not have the merch in advance or some other way. But this, again, because there was so much attention paid to this particular possibility,

I'm just astounded that they managed to keep this under wraps. Astounded. The logistics of doing that, of making, again, something of this magnitude with a, we already knew who was cast in the role, so any red flag at all goes off. And it becomes very obvious what's happening here. I mean, credit to them. This is an incredible thing to keep under your hat. And it's one of those payoffs that if it had been out there in the trades, if there had been set photos, if there had been whatever, hinting that this was a possibility, it would have taken the air out of the thing.

So our enjoyment is directly related to the veil of secrecy that needed to go on in order, you know, the, I can't even imagine the NDAs or whatever that people had to sign in order to keep this thing quiet. But I'm glad they did. I know. I'm really happy to. And it just was, again, like an instantly iconic performance. really sort of revelatory. From the very first moment, the elevator, you know, just a big show for elevators, the elevator doors open, the purple cape draped about him, the apple in hand.

One of the first things we hear of say is, this is wild, the two of you, same person. I mean, it's a little unnatural, but wow, wild. Then bite the apple, you think of something like the moment, like the physical moment, like the physicality of the performance, the expressions, the line readings, the mania, the glee, the simmering, need, and intent, and also just the sheer volume of screen time in this episode, start to finish, just mesmerizing, magnetic, strange, like very strange, but in the best possible way, like wicked, delicious, I just could have watched him for hours, and I'm very excited that we will get to, and that presumably each of these iterations of the character will feel completely

different and have its own vibe and feel. I'm glad you pinpointed the strangeness of his performance because the fact that he's fundamentally a character who kind of wants to die lets him play off the wall in so many interesting ways. And I mean, I love that about Jonathan Majors as a performer in general. Like, he plays some characters that have very strange energies. And the through line for a lot of them is there's just an intelligent. in the way he presents as an actor. Like, you could, you know, we talk about, like, physical believability and plausibility

with a lot of these performers and these big action movies. Like, can you sell the punches, the cartwheels? Can you sell yourself as a dynamic fighter to make believable action scenes? I think there's an intellectual plausibility to Jonathan Majors, like, the way he performs. You could tell me he's a rocket scientist. You could tell me he's a philosopher or an artist or a multiversal conquering supervillain. And I'm buying all of that stuff wholesale because he just, has that kind of energy about him.

And so, I mean, I really love, you know, as Loki and Sylvie are fighting, him sitting at his desk kind of ducking and weaving, watching them go at it. There's just so many great little moments from him in this. That's one of the really fun things about rewatching the episode. I'm glad you identified that. It's such a riot to watch him in the background. Because when he's speaking and when he's delivering his lines of dialogue, he is just such a dominant presence in those sequences.

And then the way he like lingers in the shadows as they're fighting, as they're talking, as they're imploring each other, as they're crying, as they're kissing. He's like, just sit there watching like a fucking creep. And it all works. It all works. The only real note I have, and I know you have this one too. I'm sorry. The void at the end of time, the citadel at the end of time, that's the apple.

You absolutely must, must. Have a pink lady apple with you, a honey crisp apple with you. God forbid, like introduce our dude to a nectarine or something. Like, this is the best you got? I mean, that was the only thing, you know, this is a show about... Really good necterines this season, by the way. Love them. This is a show about multiversal travel, an incredible number of timelines.

It asks you to make some huge jumps as a viewer to buy into this stuff. This was what strained the credibility and the plausibility of the story for me. Okay. I love the fact that it was an apple. because of the biblical implications, right? The forbidden fruit, the temptation, the Garden of Eden, which we're going to talk about for a long time later. But the type of apple I was just shocked by it.

I was shocked by it. We actually got a mailbag question, which I will just read now because we're talking about this now, so we're not going to do it in the mailback. But Matt C. said, bringing in the best of all the universes, and the best apple is Granny Smith, question mark. there's something especially delicious about the fact that he's giving this big speech

about how all the versions of himself had met to share technology, to share knowledge, to improve their worlds, and he literally pauses to take a bite out of this goddamn Granny Smith apple. What are we doing? It was more than I could bear. It was more that I could believe in that moment. How can you trust anything that guy says after that? Well, you've heard the phrase, chew the scenery, you know.

It was quite literal in that episode. I love it. I just think pink ladies and honey crisps are clearly the choice. I'm on the record now. You mentioned that sequence, the little, like, blob, the tempad turns into the animated aids for exploring this history of his variants, the multiversal war. One of the things that really stands out about the performance is that he had to handle so much exposition over the course of the episode. And he did so really, really brilliantly. Like,

he literally says before the first expository sequence, which was not the only one. And these were necessary. And I think in general, Loki handled this well. Like, even if you, if you think back to the Miss Minutes TVA animation sequence in the beginning of the season. But he literally says, let's get all this out of the way. Like, they just are acknowledging what is how to happening and leaning into it and then finding a way to make it as captivating and imaginative as possible. I was hanging on every word. It was legitimately one of the most exciting things I've seen in the MCU, the idea that

what if our big climactic ending is just a giant exposition dump, but we gave it to one of the most exciting actors working right now? I mean, that's an incredible thing to be able to pull off. And like storytelling-wise, I think it's certainly not textbook. like the way they introduce him this late in the game, what they're asking him to do in these scenes. It shouldn't work, and yet it does on pretty much every level. Yeah, and there was just so much in those expository sequence.

I mean, he explains how he uses his tempad to avoid injury and death. He knows what they're going to do. He shows them the printouts of the conversations they're having right then, which of course makes you think back to the printouts of every word. Loki, this Loki variant is ever uttered in, the first episode, which that made me think of the cat, perhaps, flurkin. I know it all, he says. And I've seen it all.

Everything you guys did on Lamentus, I saw. All the stuff the TVA didn't know about, I knew. All the scheming, all the talking, that little look by the lake. And they exchanged that, this really, just really anguished. look with each other right there because that's this highly private, personal, intimate moment that was so meaningful. It sparked this massive ripple effect. And to him, it's just another chip on his board.

It's just another thing that he can turn around and throw in their faces. Quite sentimental. Very touching stuff, by the way. This was unbelievable. to be able to explain what is happening and put that kind of levity and humor, that tiny bit of horror, the emotional elements,

even if you're not moved by what you're hearing, you're thinking back to how those moments moved you when they occurred. And then he has to just soar through that next massive expository sequence, the animation-aided tale of the variants in the multiversal war. Eons ago before the TVA, a variant of myself lived on Earth in 31st century.

The scientist who discovered other universes. I loved the visuals here, seeing those stacked one on top of the other. Are you a His Dark Materials fan by any chance? Not familiar with the books, although I tried and had to bail on the series, unfortunately. You should give the books another try. Okay. They're really, really, really great. But I found myself thinking multiple times, not just here about his Dark Materials for various reasons, but the visual nature of that, it made me think

of the layering of the worlds and the way that the subtle knife spoiler, I guess, like cuts through them. It was very cool. He talks about how the scientists discovered other universes and when other versions of him

met each other, how they shared knowledge, compliments, lots of compliments. Great nose. And then things turned, right? Not every version of me was so pure of heart. To some of us, new worlds meant only one thing,

lands to be conquered. There's the word of conquered again, right? Multiversal war. We learned that he found Eliath, weaponized him to end the war and created the TVA to maintain the timeline. What does he say at the end of all that, Rob? Hence, you're welcome. I think the miracle of that whole bit is, like, what he's saying is not that different from the TVA dogma we've already heard. Like the whole idea about why we're keeping... He acknowledges the dogma at one point, right? Saying this is where we, yeah, where we leave that behind. Exactly. Like, why we're keeping the U.S. universe together is the same reason why the TVA is doing it. And yet the way he says it feels totally different in that moment. It feels like he's presenting totally new information and a different

kind of dilemma for Loki and Sylvia to solve. Like they're being confronted with the same information in a totally different way. That's just damn good writing. That's all that is. And it's like to present it that way in that moment that feels climactic, that's an incredible magic trick. Yeah, I agree. And part of it is because it's so layered, right? It's serving a function of actually enhancing your understanding as a viewer, the character's understanding. But it's also, of course, heightening your suspicion, how much of this can we believe, when are we and the characters being manipulated? And then either way, whether it's truth or fiction or somewhere in between, what are the consequences going to be of what is unfolding? You hinted, you started to hint earlier

about how, you know, should this have worked? And I wanted to talk about that for a second, because this has been a big discussion point in the couple days since the episode. Though I'll say largely, to be clear, in praising the episode, right? Absolutely. Oh, this should not have worked, but it did.

This is something that before the finale, we had talked about on this pod, people have been covering Loki and talking about it. This has been a through line of the discussion in trying to theorize about and maybe predict who the big bad would ultimately end up being. the idea of what is most narratively satisfying and rewarding. You know, we talked over the last couple episodes here

about how another Loki, a Loki variant, might feel like the most narratively apt choice in terms of the themes and the stories, but also, and that was kind of where I officially like planted my prediction flag, but also really believed that Kang was coming, maybe in a stinger. I think, again, I was personally

shocked and delighted and shocked in a good way by the amount of screen time here. But one of the things we've heard a lot is that it shouldn't have worked and the reason it did is because of the performance. And I wanted to ask if, like, what you thought about that

because I think that as we just spent a long time outlining, the performance is remarkable. But I actually think that while I see the logic of that, And again, I think that aligns with much of the discussion heading into the finale. Saying this doesn't work without the performance being at that level doesn't actually feel like quite right to me. Because I think that the writing and the plotting did point us toward this.

Like he who remains says every step you took to get here, Lamentus, the Void, I paved the road, you just walked down it. That was us with the show. You know, Waldron and Eric Martin and Heron and the whole team, they, paved this road for us, the emphasis all season long on the mystery puppeteer, this Wizard of Oz-like and lost-like man behind the curtain idea supported, I think, a genuine new reveal that we would pull back that curtain and meet someone we had not met before. And again, like, as just that larger awareness of the connective tissue across the MCU and knowing what was coming and how that influences are thinking, I think you could fairly say, well, how does that aspect of it function

for people who are not aware of comics canon or listening to podcasts about Loki every week or reading casting news? And that would be an interesting thing to talk about for a minute, too. But I'm curious for your thoughts on all that. I'm with you in terms of it being a much more collaborative thing than just the performance. The performance obviously sells it. It's crucial to get the energy right, to get the menace of that character right, to put him in a position. where he takes these two characters we've invested so much in, and he makes them feel so small in that moment. And it's like they have no options other than the two he presents. It's quite a thing that he's able to do with that. But he's written, the character is written that way. And it works

as you laid out as we've been talking about because the ideas that he presents are extensions of ideas we've already been talking about. These are not new concepts. It's all it's all the same ground just extended and applied in different ways. And as you said, we know someone is there. And so that's why the rules storytelling wise are a little different when you know there is a curtain, when you know that you have to reveal it at some point. Exactly. It changes the whole nature of that. Like, you don't want a character you've never heard of before or seen to veer into the final scene or the climactic battle of some other movie when you're not expecting a reveal like that, when you're not expecting a person pulling the strings. Then it feels forced. It feels strange.

We don't know anything about this person. The point of the moment of that, this scene is that you're not supposed to know anything about this person, that you're supposed to feel as alienated from the agency that you're feeling as a viewer as Loki and Sylvia's characters. Yeah, I think that's very well put. And I really agree because part of the thematic emphasis and focus of the show, you know, we've talked a lot about purpose and capacity for change and connection and nature of a snorture, free will and destiny and tension there, been one of the primary areas of interest. And the idea that somebody, something, somewhere,

that is nothing to do with you or anything that you have ever done is attempting to control the circumstances of your life, that is like specifically actually the horror and the tyrannical pursuit of, of wrongheaded, noxious order that the characters in the show and us as viewers

are supposed to be rebelling against. And so seeing that manifest felt like the natural conclusion of so much of what we had been moving toward. You know, when he who remains says to Sylvia and Loki, we're going to talk about in a minute or two, the way they processed all of this, which was just also thrilling and incredibly well executed.

He says, There's two options. One, you kill me and destroy all this, and you don't just have one devil, you have an infinite amount, or you two. You two rule the thing. We understand at that point

that that is a false choice. And the fact that you're shouting that aloud at your screen and you're watching Loki shout it to Sylvie and it isn't enough is the tragedy of the story. It's one, there are many tragedies. This was devastating and deeply tragic episode. And when Sylvie plunges her blade into the into his chest, and the timeline shatters and explodes.

And we see that Kang statue in the TVA rather than the three timekeeper figures. And we think back to the Loki official Twitter feed tweeting out before the episode, the Loki series is about to change everything we know. And we think about how we are presumably going to see all of these variants over all of these stories. Kang, Immortis, Iron Lad, Ramat,

Scarlet Centurion. Are we going to see the Council of Kang? Kang's Kahn Collective, will we get that Reed Richards connection soon? Is there a doom connection coming? Like, no matter what and no matter when, the scope of that is terrifying and the impact of that is terrifying. And the shadow and the puppeteer aspect of it, the idea that this unnatural control is being exerted in a way that should never be allowed was always one of the missions of the show to explore that idea. And like you think back to something like Loki's saying, is this the greatest power in the universe? And, you know, how much discussion we all shared in the

early run of the show about that idea. I'm like, oh, come on. Like, we just, I'm old enough to remember Thanos, you know? And then you open that drawer and you see the Infinity Stones as paperweights. It's actually an achievement over the course of six episodes to be able to go from basically like that how dare you response that you almost feel instinctually when you see that drawer open. Like I know that those are not paperweights. I just watch Net and Tony and people I love die for those to seeing the scope and the scale that is hitherto unknown inside of the MCU. Like we thought that we had panned out in this massive way when we went to space.

It was the tip of the fucking iceberg, the stem on that apple. And now we're taking our first juicy bite. I still can't believe they accomplished all that in six episodes. I can't believe the economy of everything they packed in without making it feel rushed.

I mean, just the fact that we get into that final... The season of Loki is about the same length as one episode of this podcast. But just the fact that we get into that final room, and we have Loki, a character who, to this point, has basically embodied chaos. And he runs into someone who is proposing order in a sense, but has such a chaotic energy that even Loki's like,

whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's take a minute to think about this for a second. The idea that you could take that character and put him in that place, just with the juxtaposition of this incredible meddler and puppeteer, that's a tremendous thing to be able to pull off. Should we talk about Loki? Should we talk about Sylvie?

We'll shift from, I guess I can't call it Major's Corner anymore, Major Citadel, to non-he-who-remains Appreciation Corner because everyone else also crushed it. That's the thing. Unreal. You know, again, in all of the, the episode doesn't work if X things out there, which I do not personally believe, as stated. If someone comes in and just totally dominates and dunks on everyone else, That also doesn't work. They have to all be equal to each other.

And, you know, this was such an extraordinary, surreal performance for majors. But it was also just wonderful to watch Tom Hiddleston and Sophia DiMartino and the entire rest of the cast and the other storylines across the episode. I have absolutely delighted that Tom Hiddleston's Loki is not leaving. the MCU and will be with us for some more time. I thought, I really did think. I was worried heading into the season that this would be another farewell. And then on the heels of the penultimate episode,

the conversation that he and Sylvie had under the tablecloth blanket. Not very snugly. Not very snugly. Give me some fleece, my guy. It felt like a goodbye. Like it felt like we were being primed to once again,

lose this character after getting attached to him again in a new and different but also like very meaningful way. Will Loki be a hero now throughout phase four with the caveat that he would be the first to say no one is ever purely good or purely evil? Like it feels like that's the role that we're being poised for. He's definitely put in that position. I mean, just the way he is responding to the threat at the end of the story when he's frantically trying to go to Mobius what's going on and its own kind of heartbrose.

moment when he realizes he's not quite where he thought he was. But I mean, what's so fun about this scene in this episode is the way that Kang is reflected in these two characters, right? Like, we think we know Loki and Sylvie pretty well at this point. And yet we see a version of Loki in this episode where, I mean, it's just like stunned silence. There's no quips. There's no comebacks. He sees someone who's so far ahead of him.

It's like he doesn't know what to do. And then I think Sylvie's performance is, is. I really enjoyed it a lot because she's in a place of such pure frustration when Kang is explaining, as you laid out earlier, that he paved the road, that they're walking down. She looks like she's about to bite somebody's head off. And that's my girl. Type A. Loki in action. You know, if looks could kill, like looking across the boardroom at the guy at her office

who's trying to steal credit for the project she's been working on, that is what's happening in that scene. It's so wonderful. And you can tell, like, she's just holding back everything she has. to not try to lunge at him. I really enjoy that kind of give and take between them in that scene and just the way Kang

is able to push their buttons and hers in particular. There was some lunging, to be fair. Eventually, eventually there was some lunging. You got to lunge sometimes. The ways that the season-long

areas of interests and themes really came to fruition and manifested across this episode, free will, our capacity for change, trust, certainly trust, connection, doubt the things that you do when you're fearing your own loneliness, how you pursue and try to find and act upon the idea of that glorious purpose.

I mean, we could devote an entire episode to any of those ideas. I think one of the things that is so enjoyable about watching this show is that they all feel so organically entwined. I thought that everything that transpired, I'll say this broadly and then we'll kind of go you know, an hour and a half to the podcast. I'm about to say out loud, we'll go beat by beat. But as long as Steve and Arjuna, don't cut our mics, we'll do a rapid-fire-ish version of going beat by beat.

I thought that this storyline between Loki and Sylvie in this finale was absolutely gut-wrenching. Like, I loved watching this. I was so heartbroken by how it unfolded. Like, credit for the impact of that storyline inside what is, I think, largely going to be called the Kang episode or the He Who Remains episode for everyone. You know, and again, like, rightly that performance and that choice is generating a lot of discussion and a lot of praise as it should. but like if Loki Sylvie plotline doesn't feel fulfilling at the end of it,

then nothing that happens with He Who Remains or the splintering of the timeline hits quite as hard because their relationship, like they're the beating heart of this show. I mean, I could have, you know, watched 20 hours in a row just of Loki and Mobius as well, but... And I'll have a note or two later on what we ultimately got with Mobius and Rivona.

I think that was the one thing where I felt like, boy, I could have used just a little bit more of that. But hey, that's why we have season two, right? But with Loki and Sylvie, just start with the previously on. We hear again that idea,

you weren't born to be king. You were born to cause pain and suffering and death line. And I was like, boy, that's a troubling tone setter heading in to this episode. Did you go in with like a clear,

sense of how you thought this was going to unfold? Did you think one of them was going to turn on the other? Did you think that they were going to exit this episode together, united? Were you rooting for a certain outcome? Did you think we might get something that we didn't get? Or did you see it playing out this way? I was a little concerned that through the power of love, they were going to dispatch whoever it was.

And at the end of it, they would say, oh, I'll get you next time and disappear into the multiverse or whatever. And it would be like, okay, we won this day now. what. I'm so pleased that we did not get that, that Sylvie was allowed to be a different character than that. There's just so many ways I think something like that could have gone wrong, and this is so much more fulfilling. And so much of that comes from, I mean, you mentioned a lot of the themes that have been just carried through throughout this whole season, just in a really slow-burning, simmering way that's been really effective. And Loki's loneliness is kind of that

for me at the heart of this whole story. I just, I keep coming back to it. In these last episodes, I feel like hit it pretty hard, especially, from the point that, you know, when Mobius locks Loki into the time loop with Lady Siff, and she, you know, it's played for laughs. And that's what he hears over and over again. Yeah, it's played for laughs that he's just getting racked over and over, which is a good bit. Like, I enjoyed it. But hearing that over and over, and then when Mobius returns to get him, it's devastating. But what, what Mobius asks him is, do you really think you deserve to be alone? Right. You know, like, like, this is why we are torturing you in this particular way.

And the fact that at the end of this story, he's probably more alone than he's ever, been. I know. That's... It's heart-wrenching. It's some pretty resonant stuff for a story like this. And it really makes me think back to something in the moment in the previous episode is when he's saying goodbye to Mobius and they kind of share a hug. At the time, I kind of

thought it was a little cheesy. I thought it was like, this is a little much for this moment. I fucking loved it. Now I can certainly see why we got it. This might be the last time we ever see that version of that friendship. Can I tell you why I loved it quickly? I don't want to get to too side-rail here, but I've actually been reflecting on that and thinking about it

because after the first two episodes, I was so attached to Loki and Mobius and I was like, oh my God, I just want that. And so it took me a little longer to, I mean, when I say a little longer, I mean like five minutes this great time, but still, right? To really embrace this new beautiful thing that was developing. And then I was so wrapped by what was unfolding between Sylvia and Loki

that I could have just watched that. And what I realized that I had appreciated so much about the balance across the episodes when Loki had that moment with Mobius and hugged him is that neither of those relationships evolves in the way that it does without the other one. And that's one of the actually really powerful messages in this story. And it's one of the reasons that Sylvie was not able to get to the place that Loki was. because as beautiful and as meaningful as what she built with Loki is to her, and as much as she wants that to be enough, to be able to linger and luxuriate in those new feelings and let herself off the hook,

let herself really believe in what she has built with another person, you don't just all of a sudden look up and have a citadel of your own emotional evolution, like you build it brick by brick. And Loki and Mobius, they're the ones who started to carve out that foundation together first. Like, when you're inspecting a house,

are you looking at the island and the kitchen and all that? Yes, I mean, I guess you are probably. I guess you are probably. To be 100% honest, I am. But continue the metaphor. Big metaphor guy.

Makes you sound super smart. Except not in this case, apparently. But what do you check? What does it all hinge on? The foundation. Like you need the foundation because it is literally what everything else stands on. And so that is why I love the hug. Can we talk about the beginning of the episode, actually, and then like move our way,

the path that was paved for us. Let's move our way down. And I'll try to go. I'll try to go quickly here. There's just so much to unpack in that first conversation at the threshold, not the threshold that they eventually cross, but the threshold to enter. The Citadel, because Sylvie hesitates at the door and says to Loki, well, if you think it's a bad idea, I prefer you to speak your mind. And I was really like harping on that on a rewatch because he does,

of course, speak his mind later on. And it doesn't matter. And it feels actually in that moment of him doing so like a fracture that they can't repair. You know, there's no gold like the veins. and the marbled walls that they can use to stitch together that breach in that moment. And he says here never made a difference. And I was like fascinated by that because it encapsulated so neatly how much he's really learned and grown and changed. That is not something that our Loki would have ever said before because it is not something he would have ever felt before.

And then for Sylvie, like the magnitude of the moment is so immense because it has, and she voices this. It is what she has been working for and waiting for her entire life. And what was that life? It was a life to the point you were just making of loneliness and plotting and planning and waiting inside of that loneliness as it swelled. like Eliath and consumed her. Think back to like episode three on Lamentus when there's that great exchange about being a hedonist.

And she says, I'm hedonistic a lot more than you, I assure you, but never at the expense of the mission. And you think back on that, and you're like, well, that was priming us for what unfolded here, right?

Because when you work toward that mission your entire life, it would be a very hard thing. And I think this is worth all of us keeping in mind as this like, this surge of Sylvie blame cascades across the internet, that it would be very hard for anyone to have done anything differently if they had lived the life that she had lived.

It's like not a reasonable thing to expect of somebody. And then you think back to like the elevator moment with Ravona in episode four when she's asking what the nexus event was, does she remember, right? And Sylvie says, it was enough to take my life away from me. Lead to all of this must have been important. like took her life away. That's what she has spent her entire existence feeling and thinking about that has been her reality.

And then in episode five, she says, Loki, I don't have friends. I don't have anyone. And it is so, so sad. And his response to that is, well, there are more important things, right? Right. Like bringing down the TVA. Like the role that loneliness plays, there's no shame in feeling loneliness. It is deeply human and relatable.

That's part of what made this such a compelling thing to why. watch. But the tragedy of not feeling like you can find the other people who can help pull you out of it is is heartbreaking to watch. When in this case, a character who just isn't even wired to think to look for those people, I mean, as you mentioned, just the fact that it's an unreasonable thing to ask of Sylvie in that moment who, after running through apocalypse after apocalypse, to all of a sudden weigh things in a different way and consider this completely separate logical framework other than the singular goal she's been operating with her entire freaking life, that's just not going to happen. I mean, I think the line from Kang about Loki that he is the

flea on the dragon's back, like he is a tourist in this. He's along for her ride, basically. And when you think about it, Sylvie and Kang have a lot, something pretty huge in common in that they, there are two people who seem to want more than anything relief from their glorious purpose. They want to stop what they have been doing. Sylvie wants to stop having to hunt the timekeepers in this way. Kang seems like he's just kind of sick of it. I just want to break. I want to go on vacation.

Power to him, even if that comes through death. At least that's kind of how he's posturing in this episode. Like, given that Sylvia's coming from that place, she's not a logical actor here. She's driven by one thing. She accomplishes that one thing. It's just kind of a shame that obviously the rest of the story is going to unfold the way it does as a result of it. That's an interesting way of putting it because,

I was thinking a lot while watching this about the idea of temptation and how the thing that you want or the thing that you thought you wanted for a long time can be weaponized and leveraged against you. And a lot of this comes from He Who Remains and his conversation with Loki and Sylvie. But before that, we get it in a horrifying fashion from Miss Minutes. I would like to share a quick story with you. sat down to watch this at midnight, right? And had left a light, like an overhead light on slightly too bright, okay? I was like, I don't want to get up. I don't want to interrupt the episode.

I'm going to roll with it. And then I was like, this is really just too bright. So said to Adam, hey, can you pause? And he paused and I went to stand up. The second in the minutes appeared on the screen. I had just like, you know, the momentum of my body standing up. was carrying me, like, toward the TV. And I was, I was like, I knew a moment of true terror.

It was very scary. I had a very scary thought during this episode, which is when Kang is laying out, oh, like, if you think I'm bad, wait, you see the other versions of me. Are there scarier variants of Miss Minutes out there? Oh, my God. What a, what a truly troubling question. I don't know. I think we have to say, though.

It's a big W for Mr. Minutes, are Juner Ram Gapal. Round of applause. It was sort of kind of miss minutes all along. I mean, she was in on it. Was there another big bad? Yeah, there was. But she was up to some shady shit. She was at minimum the herald for the big bad,

which is a lot for an animated clock to do. She's keeping busy. Just again, absolutely terrifying stuff from her in this episode. She explains, you know, there's some helpful, run down on He Who Remains, but really the purpose of her scene and of that sequence is to try to woo them with this offer of returning to the timeline. So she's not putting out the exact binary. It's this or this that he will eventually give them. But she says to them here, y'all can live the lives you've always wanted. And then she targets each of them specifically.

So it's this like dual approach together and then individually. How would you like to win? But not just there. You can kill Thanos. You want the infinity gauntlet? Yours. Throne of Asgard? No problem.

What about you, Missy? All those years on the run? Desperate. Alone. How would you like to wake up tomorrow with just a lifetime of happy memories? Now, I was very struck by the contrast in those two scenarios, right?

And I think that is, again, a very important thing for us to keep in mind as we are assessing the choices that both of those characters made in the ultimate moment of the climax. Like, if you think about the exchange between Ravona and Sylvie in episode five before Sylvie self-pruned,

Ravona said, do you have any good memories? And Sylvie said, just one, really. And then you think to Mobius asking Loki in episode one, I guess I'm wondering, why does someone with so much range just want to rule? Like so much for both of them has built up to this moment. And the fork in the road,

not only from their own history and their own experience, but from each other, felt like very earned and fully realized. I don't want to step on this too much because I do want to get into this in the awards later. But I do think in this moment, it speaks to Miss Minutes understanding how to offer Sylvie something she wants and not really understanding anymore

what Loki, after he's developed so much throughout this season, what he wants now. There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of who he is by the end of this season. Yes, yes. And that's part of what made his arc so rewarding to watch as a viewer, right? Is that it so full of a question for you?

Yeah. Okay, so the trailers, multiple trailers heading into the season. and I love to parse trailers for clues. Now, I do so with the awareness that there's often stuff in these trailers that does not make the show or the movie. Like, that's actually pretty much something you can count on being true. However, there were so many shots of what I had been calling, like, King Loki. You know, a Loki in as Guardian Garb seemingly in the, sitting on the throne in Asgard. And it was Tom Hilsson's character, right?

And I thought, was that who was waiting at the end? You know, is this another variant? Here's my question. I've been thinking about this since the moment I was watching it. Joanna was talking about this on still watching. I think probably a lot of people had the same thought. I can't shake this. I think that this was in the episode initially as almost like a visualization of what

they could have, right? Like there was a much longer Miss Minutes, sequence here of what she was offering to them and that Loki would have had the chance to see himself rule. And despite, here's why, so I want to know if you agree with that. I think maybe that had been in there in that and would have served that role and then was cut out maybe as they moved this in a different, he who remains the direction. But the other thing I found myself thinking is that I was glad that it went this way instead,

because even though I spent all season waiting for that and then was like, wait, where were those shots? It's for exactly the reason you just said. Like, that's not what he wanted anymore. And it didn't take much to convince us as viewers of that inside of this episode. And I was actually, there were the moments of doubt that we do have, which we'll get to in the next few minutes,

where you're like, oh, my God, is this about to go away that I really don't want this to go? because those were like subtle and quiet moments where you wonder if Loki's going to do something that you really hope he doesn't, that just felt so much more poetic than watching him watch himself as King would have based on where he had gotten by this point.

I would completely understand why you would script it that way, why you would say, okay, let's get these shots of these kinds of internal visions of them getting what they want. And then you get to the editing, yeah, and you get to the editing room, and you find exactly what you just laid out. This just plays better if we're a little bit outside their mind and having to read their facial expressions and read the moment

and understand, as Sylvie makes clear throughout this episode, that is a fiction. Like, you're offering us a fiction. The other temptation, though, in addition to the individual offerings there, is the idea of them being together. Two Loki's in the same place. She says, both of us, Loki asked, together on the timeline. And that was also very agonizing,

because that, in contrast, is so clearly the thing that he wants. So clearly the outcome that he is hoping for. And, you know, Ms. Minot says he can make it work, all of it, everything, exactly the way you've always wanted. You can have it all together. I don't have a lot of life rules, Rob, okay? Like to, you know, play it by ear, see how it goes. Here's one of them.

Never trust anyone who says that to you. It never goes that way. I would also advise in general, don't listen to talking clocks. Just cut them out. Yeah, she doesn't seem like a great hang or someone you'd really want to put a lot of your faith in. But thankfully, they don't buy it. Say it's a fiction. We write our own destiny now.

And you're like, fuck yeah. We write our own destiny now. Free will is going to win the day. Let's do it. And the rub is that while they know this, right? he is in a way, he remains, seemingly counting on them knowing this and processing it this way. He is weaponizing their desire to choose to exert their free will. He wants to tempt them with their desires and manipulate them with a false sense of choice. They want to believe in their own agency,

so he lets them believe that they have it. And through the process of doing so, ultimately, ensnared them in that false binary, that false rendering of an either-or. I think it's pretty telling that once they all get together, Kang spends most of his time when he's not just delivering exposition, basically poking at her specifically. He doesn't ever really poke at Loki. It's always like, do you think you can really trust this guy?

Which, I mean, you identified kind of the tender moment they had in the previous episode under their tablecloth. That was something she was thinking about even then is, How do I know when we get to the end of this, you're not going to betray me at the last moment? So it's already on her mind. He knows that. He knows just how to poke her to kind of stoke those feelings. Again, Loki is the flea on the dragon's back.

He's just along for the ride. She's the one I need to agitate to put my plan into action. And it works pretty perfectly. That makes me think back to the middle android, a timekeeper, saying, you're a child of the timekeepers to, Sylvie, we can talk. and like obviously they were just fronts, but that that maybe reinforces in hindsight that that like specific interest in her. That's interesting.

I found myself thinking during this temptation sequence of so many different touch points. I was thinking, forcefully and powerfully, it'll shock you to hear of the mirror of Eresed. Show not your face, but your heart's desire. It does not do to dwell on dreams, Rob, and forget to live. But the real tenderness and anguish of the way that you reach a point on your journey

where you have to acknowledge and balance out with fighting for what you believe in and searching for what you want, that if you linger and languish in this impossible yearning, it will consume you. I was thinking about that throughout. I already mentioned his dark materials, but in addition to the subtle knife and the layering of the worlds, and I've mentioned this earlier in the season, you know, the assessment of like the nature of consciousness and specifically with the idea of finding and killing God, could not stop thinking about that in this episode. Obviously, constantly thought of lost and temptation is certainly a certain. central part of the journey of lost.

Musa mentioned this on Midnight Boys, but of course, Lord of the Rings, the Ring of Power. I was just sitting here, do not, of course, you know, mentioned it earlier, but of course the biblical allusions, you know,

aided by the starring role of the forbidden fruit itself. There's the Granny Smith again. What happens if you let yourself take that bite? Do you think if they had Granny Smiths in the Garden of Eden, Eve would have been like, no, I'm good.

Where's the pink lady tree? Oh my God. I just said, I love a pink lady. I got to say. Sylvie's choice. Loki's choice. The impact of Loki's arc. You know, we've talked about the Apple.

There's also just the caffeinated beverage sequence. What a host, you know? Just good manners. It's just like very disarming and somewhat like sociopathic, good cheer as he He welcomes them into his office after escaping the elevator. And everything he says, it's... Been a long journey for you, has them. A lot of running.

A lot of pain. And you... You're a flea on the back of a dragon. And for one hell of a ride. But you did manage to hang on. I guess that counts for something. There's so much resonance from each character's perspective, because for Sylvie, it's like, she doesn't need a reminder of how long it's been or how painful it's been. And with Loki, the flea on the back of the dragon idea is like that's the exact thing he used to not only resent people thinking about him, but allow to then dictate the choices that he made.

Like that worry about this sense of inferiority, this need to prove himself worthy. and you're the brother of the guy who's associated with milnear and worthiness. Like these words from He Who Remains are so carefully chosen to your point from this awareness

not only of where the scabs are but exactly how to picket them and of like what is festering beneath and then what might happen when that is exposed to the air and spills out again. Like his power is not just time control, or hyper-elevated intellect,

it is that he is a student, right? He is studying nature and attempting then to manipulate. It's one of those scenes that really makes you think when this character runs up against all the other heroes in the MCU, who's going to even have a chance in these kind of scenarios? Like, who's going to not only have the physical power

to combat this guy, but like the mental acuity to resist the kind of manipulations that he, does because, you know, Loki kind of does it here. It's clear he knows there's a game afoot and he just can't quite get ahead of it. He can't quite convince Sylvie what he needs to convince her of. But that's kind of the ballgame. And I mean, there are certainly some hardheaded heroes we have in the rest of the MCU who, you know, I think could be a little reactive, can be a little, you know, are not always the type to sit and think and ponder. Is this actually an ultimatum or do I have a third option that's not being presented here? Right. Yeah. And I think that the way that,

like that manifested here with the way that he sparks this like horror and anger in them, you know, thinking back to Loki saying like, my choices are my own back in episode one and needing to rebel against that, you know, I paved the road, you just walked down an idea. But like, he mocks the very notion that they have hinged their entire journey on. Oh, come on. you know you can't get to the end until you've been changed by the journey, this stuff needs to happen to get us all in the right mindset to finish the quest.

I loved that moment so much because that was actually like kind of, this is going to sound like a very silly thing to say. That was kind of like a brave line, I thought. Sure. Like it's a pretty bold thing to put in the script and say out loud because you do run the risk of almost like offending the people who, believe very deeply in the hero's journey, but it didn't have that effect at all. What it did was establish him, as to your point, someone who the heroes are going to have a very, very hard time

contending with. And as a foil, not only for the people who's going to face down moving forward, but for so many of the people who have defined our experience to date, like that last, that line is just like such a dagger. It's this dunk on the very notion of agency and fruit will. And it is also very specifically a twisted kind of inversion of Tony's very, very, very precious and famous line, part of the journey is the end. And this effort to convince them that he is leading this puppet show very proudly was just so, like, sinister and unsettling to watch. And the thing that was most sinister about it is, again, like, it's not just the might

of it, right? It's the keen understanding of how he can disrupt the footing of the people who were right in front of him. The moments from him that I had the hardest time deciphering were the moments where a little bit of rage or indignance would poke through. When he's explaining especially how I won the multiversal war, I did all of these things. I conquered all of these people, all these other versions of myself. And is that a performative indignance where he is trying to intimidate them, or is there a, is there a, you know, a touch of that in him? Like, how could, how dare you challenge what I have created here? You know, like, a part of him that is, that is poking through this elaborate ruse he's created in this plan where he wants it to fall in a certain extent,

but he's also gone to such great lengths to create it. That's, that's, that's an interesting question. And it, you know, I guess it's, it gets us to sort of speculating about what we actually think we witnessed. Like, it's certainly, I think you can certainly, really, I think you can certainly read it as, and it certainly seemed to me, like, and this connects to your point about his specific interest in Sylvie, that he was goading her into what she did, that that was the outcome he actually wanted or maybe even needed, and then the questions are like, well, why would that, you know, why might that be? Like, you know, when Loki says to him, so it's all a game, it's all a manipulation, he immediately, he doesn't respond to Loki at all. He immediately bivots

to speaking to Sylvie in response to that. And he said, I mean, first he says to Loki, interesting that your head would go to that, but then he shifts, right? Sylvie, you think you can trust this guy? Don't listen to him. Loki says, don't listen to him. He remains mocks. Like, do you think you're even capable of trusting anyone at all? And the way, like, the intensity that passes in the look between them when they are both asking themselves that question. And we are asking ourselves that as viewers. And you think back, you know, you mentioned this, that sequence in episode five. under the little thin little blanket, that wispy blanket where she says, how do I know that in the final moments you won't betray me? Like, it's so heartbreaking from both of their perspectives. The fact that she feels that way

and has to ask that and the fact that it manifests here so decisively, but also the way that that would feel for him to hear this person that he has come to feel this way about voice that loud, and I was very affected by watching that play out in real time in this episode. But even, like, again, that idea of, you know, she says to him, this is back in episode five in that sequence. Like, if we make it, the TV is gone, there might be a timeline for you to roll. He says, ah, then I'd finally be happy. And, like, that is exactly this fiction that is

presented here that he who remains is trying to tap into both sides of things, like tempting Loki with the prize that we believe he does not want. But Can Sylvie be sure? You know, he's, he's sinisterly and foully, like, exploiting Sylvie's fear that no connection can outlast the treachery that from her experience defines human nature. I mean, even within this story, everyone else who she tries to trust for five seconds basically betrays her, like, you know, Rivona, when they have that are kind of like packed where they're clearly suspicious of each other. But it's just a matter of time before the other person turns the other cheek and you realize. what their true intentions are. It feels like she's always waiting for that with Loki.

And the fact that the way that their story crests with her sending him off with the tempad, I mean, it's a heartbreaking thing, but I mean, against all odds, they have brought the love as an imaginary dagger metaphor back into perfect clarity, this idea that what looks real to one person isn't to the other one.

They weaponized it again. They created this ship. They mocked it in the show. And then they weaponized it again. against us. I both appreciate it and I do not. I know. It's a lot. I mean, there's even something about the way that he speaks and presents his scenario. You know, you came to kill the devil, right? Well, guess what? I keep you safe. And if you think I'm evil, well, just wait till you meet my variance. Where, you know, in a story where, like, truth and lies and reality and fiction so often came to

the four. Like, he's saying out loud, that's the gambit. And, you know, the way that he talks about order and chaos. You may hate the dictator, but something far worse is going to fill that void if you depose him. Like, villains, the best villains,

always think they're the hero, right? And that, what he is outlining there, like that is how tyrants rule through the elimination of choice, through the cultivation of fear. And it was interesting to me

that when he makes that offer of the either or to them, when Loki, I mean, he'll ultimately say, right, I think he's telling the truth. When he says, initially, you're lying. What is the reason that he thinks that? He says, why would you give up being in control? And I was fascinated by that, again, from the perspective of both of those characters who think so often about what control looks like and how one would deploy it if they had it and then what it means not to have it. And then it's like, again, good question. Like, why would he? You know, what don't we know about what has happened now beyond that threshold point and those cracks? in the foundation and the cracks in the walls and in the images all around him. Like, why did he want this? Theory.

Not when I even necessarily believe in. In fact, I don't think I believe this. You're already bailing on your theory. I mean, there are like so many possibilities here. What if he actually is not in control, but is a prisoner in this citadel at the end of time of perhaps another one of the variance. And like, because, you know,

cited a few times like that, like almost like resentment, you know? What could have maybe caused that? Like, maybe he needs them to kill him, to free him. Like, for example, why would he say to them, tell the workforce who they are and why they do what they do?

Like, that's incongruous with wanting to maintain the ways of the TVA. I thought that that was interesting. I don't think any lines are in there by accident. Like, but, you know, maybe he just needs to set off these events just as he needed to maintain

all of the events that came before them. Maybe it just doesn't matter because as he says, reincarnation, baby, you know, if they, if he, tired as he is no longer in this position and they unleash his other variance, which is what happens,

because of what unfolds, he knows that another version of him is going to end up back there or in another version of control. And like the way that he said, I'm tired, I'm older, I'm older than I look. This game is for the young, the hungry, tries to convince them, like, it's definitely you too.

Like, he's pitching them on a new glorious purpose and a show where the idea of glorious purpose came up so often. But in those moments, you couldn't ever, as much as you're invested in thinking about Sylvia and Loki, you couldn't stop asking yourself what his motivation was because, like, you brought up the line earlier where he's like, murderer, hypocrite,

we're all villains here. We've all done horrible, terrible, horrific things. But now you have a chance to do them for a good reason. It's like that great or good idea. You associate that with so many villains across stories. And, you know, when he says that he doesn't know what's going to happen next, and once they've crossed that threshold,

like I was thinking about devs and the tram lines and what happens when there's no more, footage playing on the screen, but like after all that talk across the season about untangling the epilogue and working to create this utopia, it's like kind of shocking, even though we knew we were building toward this point

to see the timeline actually branch and fork and split and sprout. And like even just the sound treatment of it, like it was like this rumbling thunder. And I found myself thinking, like, I wonder if Loki is thinking about Thor when he hears something that sounds that way and just the way that like every aspect

of how this unspooled connected to what had come before, I just, I was very impacted by it, and so were our characters because that is when Sylvie springs into action, and then Loki springs into action to stop her. My heart stopped in that moment. Did yours? Were you worried?

I wasn't too worried that he was going to die in that moment, but certainly you just have no idea how far she's willing to go. But it did seem like the way that Kang was laying out his argument, I think he needed to die. I think he, that was his plan was, it wasn't an A or B, it had to be B. It had to be someone in this room needs to kill me. And I have identified Sylvie as the most likely person to do that because, you know,

she is very much like a, you know, when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail kind of person. Like that is her one problem solving thing is stab. Let me stab this problem out of my way, especially this particular problem. And so I don't, that's the thing. I don't know why he needed to die. And the idea that, like, if he dies, he's going to somehow be reincarnated, but it's also not a version of him. It's very, like, I mean, spoiler alert for separate movies,

but like a very prestige kind of concept. Like, is that still really you if you're dying here, but also you're circling back to set all this in motion in the future? There's a lot. I mean, I'm making diagrams with straws over here at this point. It's getting a little confusing. Oh, God. You know, the reason that I was so nervous in that moment

of when they first sprung into the action sequence was, and again, I was very invested in Loki's development and I believed in it. And I felt sure that he would, that he would not, like, turn heel. But I was quite scared in the moment when he pulled out his blade because just the idea of them breaking apart

and not being aligned and not moving forward together really crushed me. And I didn't want him to make the wrong choice or, like, let her or us or himself down, because so much of this journey was about him believing in himself again. And then, you know, we see that all he really wants is to think, like to wait, to assess, to try to figure out what the right choice is. You know, he says, like, weren't you listening to what he was saying?

That's the gambit, remove the dictator on what fills the void. And, you know, again, that sparked some terror for me because think back to where we are with Loki, you know, in the Battle of New York, the Neil speech, you know, the is it not simpler? Is this not your natural state? Like, he's lived many, many lifetimes since in terms of the growth, but that wasn't all that long ago. And the absolute anguish of her saying to him, ah, you want the throne. Like, this was one of the most devastating things that I've seen in a long time.

Not just because she felt it, but because, again, of how it would make him feel. Like he says, no, that's not it. No, I don't believe you. And he tries to convince her, but it's like, no use. And she says, what was I thinking? trusting you, has this whole thing been a con? And he is so heartbroken when he says in reply, really? That's what you think of me after all this time? Surely. Sure, why not? Evil Loki's master plan comes together while you never trusted me, did you? And then this was the absolute dagger. This was

the love as a dagger moment for me here. Even more than her pushing her, pushing him through. What was the point? Like, there is so much heartache. and pain embedded in that, what is the point line? This was like such a tragic moment. Maybe think of Jamie Lannister, this very hard won redemption that then that's out in that person, that character thinking,

actually maybe I don't deserve that thing. Maybe I'm not actually worthy of that other person believing in me and that that is so much more tragic so much more upsetting than somebody actually beating you, right? Or any other kind of traditional outcome that you could think of the climax of a story.

That's the real loss. And he's willing to pick himself off the mat after that and go find Mobius and go find, you know, the rest of, yeah, B-15, and like start setting things right. And we'll have to see after that does he still have that kind of energy and is he still willing to kind of correct himself

in that way and correct his worst impulses. Yeah, that's a good point. Because the fact that he was able to pick himself up, I wasn't sure that was what was going to happen. Again, I knew a moment of real dread there because, like, in a way that I think speaks to how captivating the episode was, you know, before she pushes them through,

she says, why aren't we seeing this the same way? And he says, because you can't trust and I can't be trusted. You know, so much of the heart of the season was like that idea of what makes a Loki aloki, right? Assessing that question. What does it mean to look at a mirror of yourself and learn something because of the parallels and the similarities

and then recognize how many differences and distinctions there are. They're their own people, right? And the fact that she can't allow herself to believe him and said, you know, kill me, take your throne. Like, she's been alone for so long and doubting other people for so long. But when he puts her blade to his neck and says, you know, stop, stop. And he puts his hands on her shoulders. She's crying.

And he says, I've been where you're. are. I felt what you feel. Like, that's a show of empathy for him that even when he's sitting there with his eyes closed back in the TVA and I was like, what are we going to see in his face when he opens his eyes? The fact that we saw that empathy here was what gave me faith because that's new from him, that's growth from him. That's huge. You know, and he says, like, it's like the heart of the episode, right? Like, don't ask me how I know. All I know is I don't want to hurt you. I don't want a throne, I just want you to be okay. And he's crying too at that point.

And we're thinking back to the prior episode when they talked about how they didn't know what they would do, but maybe they'd be able to figure it out together. And like, you realize after this sweeping, very sexy kiss, I could have done with an entire sex scene, I won't lie, maybe season two. It'd be a little weird with Kang right there, but. I don't know. He who remains might be into some

some interesting stuff. He clearly likes to watch in general. And then, you know, we get like honestly one of the most crushing moments in Marvel history. I really feel that way when, you know, on the heels of her saying in episode two, this isn't about you.

And then going to the moment when they're holding hands in episode five and he's trying to find like his confidence and his belief in himself. And she says, you do because we're the same. Then we swing back here to but I'm not you and opening the portal and pushing him through.

And like, just this heart-wrenching sequences, he's running back toward the portal to try to get to her again before it closes. And it's a weapon to be wielded far away or up close. That was the love, the love is a dagger line from him in Lamentus in episode three. You can see herself in it. It's beautiful until it makes you bleed. And that's what happened here. And then the contrast of what's unfolding with them at the end,

And, you know, she does literally drive her, her dagger into he who remains chest. He is gleeful. I would describe him as gleeful, right? Giddy, really. And the response from Sylvia is quite rapid, you know, very quickly realizing that she has made an error. She has erred, right? Not only because the timeline is, you know, he said he had said, he had said, incredible when she made her choice.

And then he says, I'll see you soon. And, like, those are hanging in the air. And he's, like, chuckling. And then you see the timeline splinter further. Like, it's like, like, I was thinking of the natural. It's like tree felled by thunder, right? Just these splinters and fractures everywhere. Like these, like, frayed edges of the nerve, like, filling this gorgeous,

candy-colored sky. It's thinking about Lost and Jacob and Ben and the loophole and being goaded into doing this thing. that you should not do. And again, I don't blame her. But it seems like, I think clearly, like what he wanted then. And then as that's unfolding, we're watching Loki in this state of just supreme utter despair. And the monitors beeping in the TVA, the spaghetti is unspooling on the plate.

And Loki is sitting crying. And Tom Hiddleston's face in that sequence is just, I mean, what a piece of acting. Like, this is just pure despair. And the what is the point line is just, you know that it has consumed him. And I was so grateful that he did not sink into that and let that question win, that he did not regress and return to his past self, that when he opened his eyes, we didn't see hate or resentment.

We saw a new glorious purpose, like a determination. He was not going to quit. Dread turned into hope and possibility until, of course, you know, we get to the moment where we realize that Mobius and B-15 don't know who he is. They say, who are you? And we pant a king statue. And everything has changed. Do you think that when Sylvie pushes Loki away through the Tempad portal and says that she's not him,

do you think she doesn't believe him that he only wants to make sure she's okay? Or does she just not care? Neither. Okay. I won't let you give me a false binary. Rob Mahoney. I think that she is so. deep down that that path, that she just cannot.

And this is, again, the tragedy of it because it is a story about the power of choice. And she believes, and that is one of the things that she is focused on is I have to make this choice. I have the chance to make this choice, and I will, but it's almost like she doesn't, she can't make any other at that point, right? And that is like pretty devastating.

I think that her affection for Loki is real. I am eager to see them reunite in season two with a quickness. I hope we don't have to wait long for that. I think that the question of, like, exactly... So I wanted to ask you this, because, you know, hopefully I'm not missing something very obvious here. I think there are a couple different ways you can interpret this,

where... Because the TVA exists out of time, he has gone back to the TVA, and the fabric of reality has changed. I think the other way that you can interpret it is, he is in a different timeline. He was pushed through, remember? he didn't send himself there.

He was sent there. Courtesy of he who remains his temp pad, right? So even like if we think about how we see Mobius and B-15, are Mobius and B-15 when they're like reflecting on what has happened. And then the Mobeus and B-15, who Loki runs into, they're standing in a totally different place. Like, was your read on this that they're in it? He's in a different TVA and a different timeline.

and that maybe because of the way the sacred timeline has fractured and unspooled. There's a TVA, there's not just one outside of time, but he went to a different one in a different timeline? I think so. And some of that is just because if it were the other one,

if he were going back to the same TVA and it's just been kind of course corrected through this one cataclysmic event, there's so much that would come from that that you would have to put the toothpaste back in the tube. For example, we haven't talked that much about Rvona's story, Yes.

But if Loki, if they're never hunting Loki. Two minutes on Rivona, which is about what we got in the finale. Well, if Mobius is never, if he never meets Loki, that means he's never looking for Loki. They never have their partnership. And if Loki never comes to the TVA, Rivona never has a reason to pack up all her files and go out in search of whatever it is she's in search of. She would still be at the TVA.

And I don't think that's where the story is going to pick up. Like you don't set up the narrative threads that you've done with Ravona to then put her back in the TVA, right back in the position she was in, that wouldn't really make sense, which makes me think this has to be a different TVA in a different timeline. Mechanically, how that works, I don't really know yet. Ravona, I will say, like, no, again, knowing there's a season two, I think helps here. I think all season long we debated how much she knew, it seems, that based on her interactions with Miss Minutes, she definitively does not know who is behind the curtain, you know, this isn't

what I asked for. She says in the files and, and, and. Ms. Minut says, I know, but he thinks this will be more useful. She says, who? Happy reading. But she plows ahead anyway, which I think is actually more of an indictment in a way. Like, faith can be a beautiful thing, to be clear. But Ravona's faith in the TVA is unflinching and misguided, you know, somehow along the way from being a principal at her high school.

Like, the pen, the pen paid off, Rob. We got to see the school on the glass of pens on the desk. to being a hunter, to being a judge. She became a zealot searching for affirmation. She says, it can't have been for nothing to Mobius. That's why I had to prune you. She says, I have to believe that they, whoever created the TVA, had a reason.

Like, if we hang on to that idea of glorious purpose, it feels like if she doesn't believe in her own glorious purpose, her own order, then there's nothing left. You know, she'll be a good match for Kang when they eventually connect in the MCU, you know, then that comics canon bears fruit. But where is she off to when she leaves exactly? Where are the documents that Miss Minutes gave her guiding her? Do you have a prediction or a theory for how we'll see that unfold?

Anything you're hoping for for the rest of Rivona's arc? I mean, there's so many ways that could go. I do think, you know, to circle back to something you were talking about with Sylvie and Loki and like the kind of like, what was the point question? Ravona is clearly answering that question in a very different way. You know, taking what was the point to mean, there has to be a point.

There has to be something or else I've been living my life, you know, in complete futility. So that idea, I think, is pretty interesting. And the way that these characters are pushed to that place where they have to consider exactly what they've been doing for,

I mean, God knows how long, thousands of years, millions of years. We don't really have a clear sense of the timeline, but... Time passes differently. It does the pass very differently. I'm curious to say, see where she goes because that character could spool off in all kinds of directions. I love the

performance there. I love how, you know, Gugu Mata Rha has, she did such a good job of going from, you know, this kind of delightful bureaucrat to all of a sudden this like very cold, steely presence in the show. I kind of, I almost wish, narratively speaking, she would have been a little more complicit in what was happening beyond just like being oblivious to it. I kind of wish she was in on more just because I think it would make the character more interesting, but we'll see what happens in season two. Yeah, that's interesting. I think that the consistent part is that all of the characters in a way are defined by their longing. And the thing that she longs for ultimately is that clarity and that she does not have,

like the payoff for the faith that she has put into this. And, you know, it's in stark contrast, obviously, to Mobius, who we'll go through very quickly here to get to awards, because I suspect that we will be talking about Mobius quite a bit throughout the awards. So we'll give them a little more time there. you know, one of the absolute highlights of the season, obviously, like, such a joy to watch right down to the finale. You get to prune me, Romona says. I like that idea, but, you know, my standards might be a little bit higher in that area than yours, you know, with close personal

friends. Like, every line for Rowan Wilson was just absolutely, absolutely perfect. I found, um, you know, as has been the case in, in all of his episodes, the combination of humor and, like, wit and real heart to be just so impactful, the way that he voices the importance of free will here. And then these lamentations, these renderings of sorrow, when he says to her, friends across time, allies to the end. Shut up. That was so beautiful. And then you sent me to die. What happened to you? Oh my God. Like that wrapped itself around me like, Like Eliath, man. That was really something.

That scene was a nice inversion, too, of, you know, Mobius had confronted Loki about betraying him in the past. It was like kind of almost note for note, a similar exchange except Revona now feeling pretty betrayed by, you know, Mobius seeing the light of what was going on. Well, being on the other side of the conversation like that as part of the way that we marked progress, I guess. What do you think awaits Mobius?

Like, as far as we know, you know, we got to see B-15. We didn't see the actual scenes from B-15's prior life, but we saw B-15 see that, right, and experience that awakening. Like, Mobius has awoken, but as far as we know, has not actually seen his past life. We certainly haven't seen it.

You know, I thought we would get the jet ski. I'm not going to lie. I thought we would get the jet ski, and I was waiting for it, and I really still badly, badly want it. But I think, you know, this is like a similar point to what you were just saying, just manifesting in a slightly different way.

Like there are real correlaries between Mobius and Rivona, but the intention behind them is the distinction. If he hasn't seen that, but he is able to put all his faith in the fact that I am a variant and this is what this means. And of course, we're talking about the Mobius. We spent the bulk of the episode with not,

you know, not what we saw in the final sequence. That is also faith. That is also faith in something that he has not seen, but he believes to be true. when you think back to like, it's real, because I believe it's real, the circumstances of his existence

have changed so fully, but the heart of his character has actually been, like, quite consistent throughout. In a way that I've really enjoyed, there's, like, this combination of an even keel and this really, like,

massive evolution, actually, but it feels quite steady because of that pairing. I could see him having a pretty steady presence in this universe as kind of a point person between all of this madness, right? Like, he's positioned to be a bit of a liaison between all of these, you know, interdimensional adventures

that we're about to have. I could see him popping up in movies. I could see him just kind of connecting dots for people. That seems like a role that, you know, he's kind of plunged into a position where he's running a offshoot of the TVA, something that, like, might have pretty different intentions, might operate very differently,

but they have all the same equipment, they have the same capacity, they're just not, you know, under new management. I love it. Let's get into the season awards, and we're going to have to go rapid fire, okay? I'll believe it when I hear it, but okay. Like a minute on each award,

and even that is more than we have. Let's go. Season MVP, who you got? It's Sylvie for me. The tragedy of her story, the power of that choice she makes at the end, the idea that she is the one Loki who does not lose, but in doing so still loses

in such a huge way. That's a great character. I love it. My pick is Tom Hiddleston. Everyone in the show is great. Major's killed the finale. The entire cast was wonderful. The writing is in the running for me, for MVP.

The show was just crafted with such nimbleness and care. We always have to consider Fige for an MVP award, I think, just the fucking chutzpah to do these things. But just don't want to lose sight of Hiddleston and all of this because the show literally does not exist if he is not so magnetic and charismatic that MCU fans and the people who make it sustain the MCU basically just refuse to say farewell to him

and then built an entire new sandbox for him to play in and he played wonderfully and beautifully in it thrived, was enthralling start to finish he conveyed with just such heart and deftness and arc that would typically take a decade to unspool across the MCU

and basically like what, four and a half, five hours, he was funny, he was dastardly in bursts, he was inquisitive, he was charm, He was sexy, so much chemistry. He was just so deeply heartfelt.

I just loved the performance. The show exists because of him and the MCU is better for it. Next award. Favorite episode. Yeah, you may have gathered. It's episode six. The finale was great, Rob. Pretty good.

Do you think we've conveyed that we liked the finale? Pretty good. I mean, again, just to reiterate, the degree of difficulty of landing that is so astronomical. I don't want to grade on a curve because I think the episode is good enough to stand up against anything regardless of it. But taking that into account, this is a great piece of narrative storytelling within, as you laid out, a sandbox as big as this one. Yeah, I agree. All right.

For the sake of variance, I'll go with something else, though, you know, because I think our agreement on the finale is clear. I'll just throw out as a nominee here, episode four, the Nexus event. That was my number two. I loved all these episodes, but episode four was fucking great. Sylvie's backstory. Loki and Sylvie sitting on the rock on Lamentus as they await their doom and then sparking their nexus event, the humor mixed in with the action, mixed in with the heat, mixed in with the heart. Like I loved like the, by the way, I should have an equal amount of security. This is insulting line. Just the tonal variance across that episode. You know, the potency of you mentioned

earlier, the time cell loop with SIF and just the agony of, I hope you know you deserve to be alone and always will. Mobius is awakening, B-15's awakening. There's just incredible score across the episode, unbelievable music. Mobius is pruning. I mean, that feels like another lifetime ago at this point, but it was shocking in the moment. The just magic of that conversation inside the elevator, the timekeeper throne room scene, the reveal. that they were fake, Loki's pruning, and then the Loki variant stinger,

I mean, that's a hell of an episode. I was just delighted that the timekeepers were like Chucky Cheese Band animatronic performers up there. Oh my God, so good. Okay, this is a really hard one. Favorite moment.

For me, you've already read the line that was my favorite moment, and it's when, you know, he who remains jumps up on his desk and is laying out, you know, how he created ages and ages of multiversal harmony, hence, you're welcome.

Great delivery, great moment. I love the drama of him jumping on that desk. And it's one of those acting choices that, I mean, it could seem ridiculous if it didn't work, but oh my God, it works. That's a great pick. This was incredibly hard for me. I reserve the right to change my mind on this one at any point.

But I ultimately got it down to a few Loki Sylvie moments that I have thought about a lot and really cherish. How many is a few? Three. Okay. That's reasonable. Thank you. Sylvie touching Loki's forearm in episode four, just that whole moment, not even, not like the touch,

but just the way really specifically that they turned to each other for comfort and found that sense of understanding with each other in the face of their imminent demise, like that the thing they cared about the most, then that he cared about the most, was like looking at her not trying to escape. I just thought was like really incredible and to establish that chemistry

between them that quickly. I loved that. Conjuring the blanket in episode five. Unbelievable, like, stretching and yawning to put my arm around someone at a movie theater stuff from Margui, I support it. And then I think my winner, ultimately, because I am just a really easy mark

and a huge sap, I just want you to be okay from the finale. That's honestly my pick. Rob, we've spent a lot of time with Loki. Hearing him, seeing him say that to another person and knowing how true that was for him is an incredible thing. I genuinely feel fortunate that we got to witness it. So it's not a toss-up.

That's my pick. I'm going with that. Mal, I just want you to be okay. So if that's your pick, I'm with it. Thanks, bud. Next. This is like kind of related to the prior. Maybe it's not actually.

I just all my favorite moments came from conversations. But the best, a wise man once said the true history of the world is the history of great conversations in elegant rooms, conversation sequence. No shortage of options here. I mean, is it cheating to say basically the entire finale episode in the office? There's no cheating. You make your own rules here.

It's a 40-minute conversation. I'm going to take that one. You know, incredible performances, the greatest, you know, the dramatic peak of the series. in a lot of ways. We get everything we love about the Loki Sylvie dynamic distilled and bouncing off of this bat shit

insane new villain. I loved every bit of that. Also, great design sense. I mean, great chotchkes up on the bookshelves there. Reminded me of Romano's bookshelves, actually. A lot of relics there. Interesting. I guess when you have infinite time

in a citadel at the end of it, a lot of interior design opportunity. But again, like, so much was crumbling in the citadel. It did make me think, like, What did he need to happen there and why? You know? Was he actually out of time?

Anyway, here's how I assess the third and fourth awards here, because I considered a lot of Sylvie Loki conversations for this category. I went with a Sylvie Loki pick for moments, so I'm going with a Loki Mobius conversation here. That was ultimately how I divided these categories. I loved every Loki Mobius conversation. I really did. But I'm going to pick the Loki Mobius conversation.

It's real because I believe it's real exchange, which I adored. Like, it's just so thrilling to me to hear the characters have the kinds of conversations to talk about the kinds of things that we as viewers and readers talk about and think about all the time. And, you know, that conversation gave us a lot of really crucial lines and tapped into a lot of like philosophically and existentially compelling areas of examination. the I know something children

don't what's that that no one bad is ever truly bad and no one good is ever truly good gym that defined so much

of the show came from that conversation the jet ski chat was in that conversation you ever been on one no no

that's like so sad and it of course led to the do you have candy on Asgard yeah grapes and nuts no wonder

you're so better exchange incredible stuff okay this is a another hard one. These are all hard because there are so many good choices for all of them. Favorite Loki variant. And to be clear, Loki, like our Loki and Sylvie are not eligible for this. This is other variants other than those two. I'm trying to think of reasons not to pick

alligator Loki. I mean, he bites off another, he bites off another, he bites off another Loki's hand. I love the way that they don't really dwell on him. He just kind of slinks off through scenes or he's kind of walking in the background. I think they use him very, well. But I mean, he's used so sporadically. I think I have to go classic Loki. But I want to also give an honorable mention. So when, I guess we're calling him, President Loki comes in with his henchmen, are all the henchmen other lokies? I think so. Then I want to give a shout out to the Loki who has made horns out of bike handle bars. That guy, that guy really had it going on. Inventive. No functional fixedness for that guy. I love it. I also was tempted to pick Big Al,

Alligator Loki. He was dope. I loved all the eye movies. movement from alligator loki. Loved watching alligator loki guzzle, wine in a small pool. Amazing stuff. Seems healthy. You know, be happy to try it. Report back.

It's got to be classic Loki. This was a wonderful jewel of a performance from Richard E. Grant. His breakthrough, his characters breakthrough from the God of Outkass moment to then sacrificing himself and shouting about glorious purpose with a completely newfound clarity on what that could mean, was bliss and a microcosm really of the show's goals and interests and beliefs. And in that, it was like a lesson not only for us as viewers, but for the other characters in the show. It was awesome. He was great. And what an outfit. Oh, I mean, if you're going to give someone on this show a giant cape to play around

with, Richard E. Grant is a great option. I mean, he was, he was twirling around in that thing to perfection. The next category, it may be so obvious that we can just say a name and move on. Favorite, either cameo or guest limited appearance. And I will say, I think it would have been Richard E. Grant's classic Loki until the finale. And it is clearly majors, right? He remains. Do we even need to talk about this?

He was insane. I think we've given him his due, to say the least. Okay. Very clear one. Next. Favorite pop culture reference or influence. There were so many. Which did you like best?

I'm not going to pretend that taking the Snowpiercer train into an apocalypse is like asking a girl to get off the train with you in Vienna. It's not quite the same thing, but I appreciate the effort to do the before sunrise thing. I mean, I could have used a little more like artists down by the stream, you know, offering to write poems about sweetcakes and milkshakes. I could have done more of that. but under the circumstances, I'll take what we got. Real coin flip toss up for me between Lost and Before Sunnrise. Two of my absolutely favorite things in the world.

I can't pick. I just can't. I'll pick Lost because you pick Before Sunrise. And I mean, I've been just exhilarated by the lost fingerprints that are all over these last couple episodes. It's been really fun. Favorite Easter egg? Which one stuck with you here? I just loved the ridiculousness of the Thanos copter.

And I was really hoping, I was really hoping Mobius would get a spin in it, or Loki would get a spin in. They would play in some way into their escape or something. But sadly, it was just a nice prop for the background. My pick's also going to come from The Void. You know, I will say I think that putting the King Enterprise branding on what we all thought was Stark Tower

and I'd been Stark Tower in the void, really, that was cool at the time. And now is like, oh, my God. Yeah. you know, they really were trying to tell us something. But that's ultimately my runner-up because I can't not pick Throg. Like, Throg in the T-3-365 jar

reaching for a meal near is an all-time Easter egg. Just tremendous stuff. With apparently, I mean, I guess repurposed Chris Hemsworth dialogue or audio, just great work all around on the details. Full commitment to the bit. I applaud it. Here's another one with no shortage of contenders. Best fit.

Who's the fit kid? thick queen. There are so many. I mean, most of the TVA fashion is very strong in general. I'm into the whole aesthetic there, but for me, Troubling, given how fascist the aesthetic is,

but carry on. Let me carry on into the fascism. Like, Rvona's look for me, give me a uniform that can play both sides of the endearing bureaucrat and the cold-hearted zealot. Give me, give me one that can do both.

Oh, my God. Will you be carrying your pruning one just as an accessory or I mean I think it works it works best in like a hip holster kind of situation now she's got this stylish briefcase to work with it I mean it's the whole thing is really coming together

I'm actually also going to pick a TVA garment this is kind of like a basic pick you know what I really liked I really liked the jacket the TVA variant jacket that Loki wore I would honestly buy and wear that I really would I had kind of a sneaking suspicion the popped collar was going to work for you

rude. All right. You know what? Let me also just shout out both Faloki's look there. The fur collar, the hammer, wonderful stuff.

Favorite new location? It's got to be the interior of the TVA. Let's please give a huge raise to everyone on the production and design teams as we head into season two. This like 70s inspired, Earth Tony.

It reminded me a lot of the design sensibility of Legion, which is a show that I like visually a lot. And it evoked that in such a clear way. It's like Legion mashed up with Mad Men in terms of the visual palette. The world building starts there. It starts with the second you enter into those rooms

and the show just takes off from there. Yeah, that's my runner-up. I agree with everything you said. The also, like, you know, airline terminal nature of it in terms of what it is actually conveying about the function that it serves, I really liked. I'm going with the Citadel at the end of time. You know, those, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,

of gold, like, just beautiful. What are the clues there in terms of the story about like the crumbling disrepair embedded inside of this resplendent, majestic expanse? And you pair that with what we see unfolding with the timeline, crackling and the cosmos streaking through that like skittal sky.

Just beautiful. beautiful. I loved it. And then also like a lovely roaring fire, a wall full of books, a nice caffeinated beverage and a snack. Sounds fucking great. The one question I had about it, you know, there are three statues that are still standing and kind of like the main common room and one that had crumbled. I was very curious what that crumpled statue was, but I think that's going to be a question for probably never. No, I suspect we'll find out. Hopefully another doubt. Okay. Biggest shock or surprise. Oh, it's keeping Kang under wraps,

keeping that performance, that appearance, an incredible thing. Yeah. I mean, just all of it. Everything with E. Who remains. Appearing at the 9-ish minute mark of the episode, I screamed aloud,

the elevator doors opening. For the sake of variance, I'll throw out a couple other contenders. I do think Mobius and Loki getting pruned in episode four were shocking at the time, even if you didn't believe that that was going to last. And then, of course, we knew immediately because of the stinger that in Loki's case,

at least it was not lasting. It was still like a, what just happened? What does it mean moment, which I love? Honestly, even like meeting Sylvie at the end of episode two, I mean, we took a long time to get to know her, but the hood comes down and we see,

you know, it's so funny thinking back to like all of our, in hindsight, anything other than that seems unthinkable, like that we wouldn't have met her then. But at the time, I was like, oh, wow, that feels soon because I thought we were going to be building toward that reveal. But of course, that wasn't a twister or reveal to come. It was one of the primary central focuses of the show. I think, you know, even like you could, you could throw out here seeing the infinity stones in the drawer.

It's like, it's fun. But also fill your pockets. Like to get a doggie bag of infinity stones to go. It doesn't seem like anyone's going to miss them. We've gotten a lot of mailbag questions over the season about like, you know, do we think that Loki has taken? The dime stone or one of the stones and is just waiting to get outside of the TVA to use one. Speaking of magic, best needle drop of the season. This score is awesome. Oh, my God.

Can we just have like a moment, a round of applause for the score? Natalie Hall, the composer for Loki. This was incredible. It reminded me a lot of the Mandalorian in that way where it's like so clearly of the right world, but also very distinct in its own ways, like so many signatures within it. And this is where I wanted to come back

to what you were talking about earlier with Ms. Minnest's proposal with her offer to Sylvia and Loki. This was the moment that I identified. In the episode, you know, she's kind of laying out for Loki what, you know, she thinks he wants. And you get this ominous music in the background

from the time that they've entered into the Citadel, and you get this little puncture of this somber string motif that's been playing throughout the season, mostly in line with things that Loki regrets. You know, like the first time he sees

a vision of his future self unknowingly betraying his mother. And when he thinks he wants this petty revenge against Thor, it turns out he didn't really want that. You know, he finds out what happens in that moment and comes to regret even his future self doing it. And so to get that as Ms. Minutes is talking about, oh, you can beat the Avengers.

You can win the battle in New York. You can kill Thanos. And it's regret not for the fact that he didn't accomplish those things, but that he ever wanted them. I mean, those kinds of moments from a score are really beautiful. Very well said.

I agree. The score is beautiful. Because you went with the score, I will go with a pop song. Well, I don't know if the... Not a pop song, but a song. Tough category here, by the way, coming off.

No Black Widow spoilers in this pod in case you're not expecting them, but I will just say, one of the all-time MCU needle drops in Black Widow. Just... Some good, some bad, unfortunately. Yes.

but American Pie was an all fucking timer. My pick here is Brenda Lee's, if you love me over the closing credits of episode four. It's beautiful. And the lyrics are so poetic and apt for what is not only unfolding at that time, but like what it foretells for maybe a wait still. You know, like if it seems that everything is lost,

I will smile and never count the cost. If you love me, really love me, let it happen. darling I won't care or then when it lasts our life on earth is through I will share eternity with you they couldn't let himself share eternity or out but maybe they will one day we can hope

season two best gift for meme the absolutely deranged look on Miss Minnett's face when she appears in this finale I mean what the absolute hell just genuinely alarming scary stuff

Steve has Miss Minutes behind him on Zoom and it's upsetting. It's upsetting. It's amazing how much crazier you can make her look just like with a few little drawing distortions, but I mean, unquestionably effective. It is really like impressive animation.

She's conveying so much with her terrifying, terrifying expressions. Okay, I'll go with, speaking of memorable facial expressions, I'll go with classic Loki shout and glorious purpose. Richard E. Grant, conveying a million lifetimes. of experience in those two or three seconds, that was incredible.

Runner up is a Big Al, guzzling the wine in the pool, though. That's good shit right there. The Mephisto Award for Most Fun Fan Theory that didn't pan out. This has to be the jet ski, right? It has to be. I was actually kind of hoping that Mobius might be a Loki in disguise or like a Loki that had been wiped in some way. That would have been fun.

But, I mean, give him the Jet ski. Let him ride the jet ski. I guess it still could be true. Again, we didn't learn who he used to be. That's true. It's not roll it out. It's not rule it out. But yeah, for me, it's the jet ski.

I really just wanted to see him ride it. Lastly, let me answer a question that excites you most for the future. For me, it's when do we see multiple kings in one place? When do we get the orphan black Jonathan Majors' performance? You know, that's going to be fun. That's a great one. It's literally all of them for me. All of them.

Like, I just, that's not an answer. But it is all of them. I think if you made me pick just one, I would probably say, when and how, this is not the biggest one in terms of mythology, admittedly. But when and how Loki and Sylvie make their way back to each other is something I will be thinking about a lot

between now and whatever it happens again. You know, we were just talking about before sunrise and how the DNA of that ode is baked into not only lamentous, but the season. And I have been thinking a lot about the fact that before sunrise is not a standalone movie, it is a part of a trilogy.

And after before sunrise comes before sunset and before midnight. And there's a lot of heartache but hopefully also a lot of joy and splendor to come. Like my favorite part

of before sunrise is the, oh my God, what a beautiful fucking movie is the record store scene. Yep. And you just think about the lyrics of that

and like, again, that yearning, that yearning. Like, no, I'm not impossible to touch. I've never wanted you so much in the way they're looking at it. You're like, you can't help,

but think about this relationship and what they couldn't quite find the way toward and what that might mean for what awaits. Have I never laid down by your side? Baby, let's forget about this pride. But they couldn't, Rob. Season two is going to open.

Loki has just written the book detailing the events of season one. Time for some autographs. But, I mean, there's an important message here in both of these things, which is whether you're getting on a train or a plane going to different continents or you're pushing your love ventures through a portal, get the phone number. Get the phone number first. Don't make these weird packs where you're not going to contact each other. They don't work.

You get some good movies out of it at least. Yeah, that's true. Rob, what a treat this was. This is fun. Yeah. It's great. Thanks for being here with us at the end of time. All right, folks, we are beyond the threshold.

We're down to a few seconds here. The timeline is splintering. And yet, the mailbag is a must. And so Jomi, Adaneron, the Lord of the Memes is here for a quick bag. Jomi, what do we got? We got some great questions. Our first one is from Floyd. Mobius was the TVA's Loki expert, but now he doesn't recognize him.

Could Kang neutralize all loki's, or is this just a variant stream TVA that doesn't have loki's? Great question. I've been thinking about this a lot. I'm excited to find out what the answer to this is, because regardless of exactly what is unfolding in that setting and with those characters in that scene, the fact that Mobius and B-15 don't recognize Loki, not as our exact Loki, right? but the fact that they don't recognize that he is a Loki variant. A Loki is the notable thing there. Is one of the notable things there? Because we know from the season that Loki variants, I mean, it's like raindrops

falling from the sky. Like they're passing through all the time, right? So this indicates, it's at least a kernel for us to chew on. This indicates that there are not Loki variants who are a part of this current TVAscape that we're glimpsing here. Right? Yes. And it's tough because Loki and Mobius just had like that great moment at the end,

you know, of episode five. And then to come back in episode six and you're like, you see Loki's like looking for Mobius. He's going to go get his homie, his brother. You know what I'm saying? One of the first people we've seen Loki make a connection with throughout his entire MCU journey. And he's like, who are you? It hurt. It hurt.

So season two finale. Group of AK. on a jet ski. I haven't given up. Going to Lake Havisian. I have not given up. You know, just a little little spring break, 98 type weekend.

I love it. I'm locked in. Sign me up. Spring break with Mobias. It's a Josta for everyone. I can't wait. All right, what's next? Our next question comes from Brian.

I love this question. Do you see the MCU heading towards a variation of Secret Wars, 2016? Instead of two universes colliding, you have all of them. This allows them to bring in old Marvel movie characters like Wolverine Deadpool

and have an easy explanation to introduce the mutants. Great question. I think that we and probably many Marvel fans agree that Secret Wars is feeling increasingly likely and maybe even Thanos voice inevitable. Check out Hickman's Run if you haven't. The idea of Battleworlds hitting the MCU

I don't think that's phase four, but that feels like what we're building toward. And it's going to be incredible. Fun to think about the doom implications there, too. This seems like a lot to me. The question is, I think, really a matter of when, of how many movies and TV shows it takes us to get there, not of, not of if. Yeah, I've said, I said this on the minimum voice. I've been saying this for a while now. I think this is how the MCU ends is with Secret Wars, you know, with like a God-powered doom and like all the heroes.

all the villains. I don't know why they'd be fighting. Your favorite thing? So many versions of Tony Stark. Yeah, I exactly. Exactly. Bring back Robert Downey Jr. bring back Chris Evans. You know what I'm saying? Like the whole thing. You know what I mean? And I honestly think that's where the MCU's headed. They're going to bring back Joe and Anthony Russo. You know what I'm saying? But that is, you know, that's the MCU's final stand. It's Secret Wars. I know you were just about to say that's the end game. And then he didn't. But I know you wanted to. I wanted to.

That right there, that's the end game. There's no end game for content, Jomey. I honestly, I mean, we can't have the MCU forever. I can't be 89 taking my great gang kids to go see Spider-Man 48. That sounds beautiful. I don't know. What a lovely family outing. I mean, you know, like, I mean, I don't know.

I just kind of feel like, you know, every, you know, every story has an end. You know what I'm saying? part of the journey is the end you might say i might you know and i feel like if they're going to end it you got to go out big and secret wars is the biggest way to end it you know but i mean like look movie tickets in the future are going to be expensive all right i've got to take my kids to see one mccc movie a month you know in the future that's it's gonna add up joey by the time you're in the year that you're describing here they're going to beaming mccc movies right into our brains.

We're all going to be living in a black mirror episode with the little grains embedded in our heads. How will podcast then? I don't know, but I look forward to finding out. All right. What's the final question of the day? Our final question comes from Greg. Greg wants to know,

does Halo have a flurking variant? Oh, my goodness. I could see HALO being interested in consuming the Tesla Act. I will say that. Does Halo have a flirt and variant? Halo's a one of one. That's my answer.

He, no variance. He's just one of one. Okay? One of one. My beautiful boy, I love him. I love Flourke and my question. My question was going to be, if, if Halo did have a flurking variant, would they get along? You know, would they be buddies or would they fight each other?

Halo has a lot of love in his heart and is really just digging companionship, very social guy. I will say that he is so spoiled that I think any other variant would,

I think he would view as a bit of a a bit of a threat, you know? Especially one with tentacles, I feel like. Well, all cats have claws. So, it's a

ask a, ask a ask Talos about this. All right. Thank you for the mailbag questions, as always. Always a delight to hear from everybody. Looking forward to getting back into the bag with you soon, man. Always, always.

For all time, always. Well, friends, we have crossed the threshold, which means it's time to wrap today's episode. Thank you, as always, to our intrepid producer and timekeeper Steve Allman, as well as Mr. Minutes, Arjuna Ramgapal, TD St. Matthew Daniel, on the entire production team

for their help with this episode. Thank you to the load of the memes, Jomi Adon, for his work on the social for this episode. And thank you to He Who Pods, Rob Mahoney, for joining me today. Remember, follow the Ringervverse on Spotify wherever you get your podcasts,

follow us on social, and head back into the Ringervorverse the week of July 26th. So we're off next week. More goodness ahead, though. Until next time, remember, every step you took to get here. MENTIS, void, ring reverse paved the road.