The Ringer-Verse - 'Loki' Ep. 6 Instant Reactions Featuring Musa Okwonga | The Midnight Boys

Episode Date: July 15, 2021

Charles Holmes is joined by 'Stadio' cohost and "Guardian of the Galaxy Brain" Musa Okwonga to talk about the explosive season finale of 'Loki' (03:05). They also discuss Mobius, theories they have going forward, and what they would like to see in the MCU's future (45:41) Host: Charles Holmes Guest: Musa Okwonga Producer: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production: TD St. Matthew-Daniel and Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Welcome into the ringerverse. The ringers nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. I'm your host Charles Holmes, the co-host of the music show. But today, guys, I have a very, very special guest. My mom called me. She's like, yo, can you go pick up some butter from the supermarket? And I said I have something better. The smooth and silky voice of the Stadio podcast, okay?

Guardian of the Galaxy Brain? and one of the smartest people talking about everything MCU today. I am happy to invite Musa, Aquaga, to the Midnight Boys. How you doing, Musa? Magnificent. What an intro. My goodness. Great to be here, Charles.

Thanks having me. Thanks. Oh, no, no. Thank you. And right now I would like to invite Jomi and Steve to turn on their mics because if anybody's listened to the midnight. boys, you know what has to happen next. We're about to enter one of the most explosive episodes of the Midnight Boys yet.

But before we do that, we have to have our catchphrase. We're the Midnight Boys and... How does your first PewPew feel? I'm loving it. I'm absolutely loving it. I love all the spoiler warnings. I was listening before in like just the previous episodes. And you guys get hype and I love that you like, you speak.

your mind. Like, you don't hold back. You don't hold back. Like, you know the people involved, you know people working at Marvel on Marvel will be listening, but you still give the critique. And I respect that so much. Yeah, it's great. I'll be honest, Michael Mouse, you know, he might be circling the block from me if I have anything to say about this episode. But, guys, before we dive in, you know what this is, this is the midnight boys. This is instant reactions, okay? We stayed up till midnight. We watched it. We're hot off the presses. These are our first reactions. And right now, having Musa on the show,

it kind of feels like the Jedi are coming over to the dark side a little bit. You know, usually here with the House of Mao. You guys have some great, great thoughts. But now you're coming for the instant reaction. How do you feel? Are you ready? I'm very ready. Listen, inject it.

Inject it. This phase is flowing through me. I'm in. I'm in. All right. All right. That's enough lead up. Without further ado, Steve, you know what to roll.

We're getting ready to talk about the episode. You're listening to a reaction podcast. The spoilers are coming. Shouts out to Van, even though he's not on that episode, just hearing his voice, makes me so happy. All right, guys, you know, you know that I had to do something special for the last 60-second recap of the season.

And we get to pick our music here. So after hearing Moose's voice for so many episodes on the House of Mao. Steve, I want to know if we could give Musa some nice, some nice jazzy sounds, some nice adult contemporary sounds so he can read us this 60-second recap. I'm asking him live on the pod.

If he can do us this honor. Slow jam, the MCU. Set the vibe for us, Musa. Where are we? Where are we right now as you're reading this? A place of great history. I'm just a few hundred meters from the Berlin Wall. That place that was divided,

freedom from chaos. so spiritually and physically I'm in the right place to read this recap. Okay. Let's get it. Let's do it. I'm so excited. We begin with Loki and Sylvie

at the mysterious citadel at the end of time. They are greeted by Miss Minutes who offers them a deal for the mysterious figure, the one who remains. If they accept, Loki and Sylvie may return to the timelines as victors of their story and stay together, but they refuse,

and then emerging from an elevator is the One Who Remains, a new character played by Jonathan Majors, who audiences recognise as a variant of Marvel Big Bad, Kang the Conqueror. Variant Kang then proceeds to explain his backstory and overall time-controlling ways to confused and cautious Loki and Sylvie. Back at the TVA, Miss Minutes gives Rivona mysterious files you didn't ask for, before she's approached by a prune-stick-carrying Mobius.

We meet a Ravona variant as other Minutemen become aware of the TVA schemes. Mobius wants answers, but Ravona escapes through a time gate in search of free will. At the Citadel, we learned from Kang that multiversal war was caused by other Kang variants and offers our loki's two options. Eliminate Kang and cause the next multiversal war, or take over and run the TVA themselves. Sylvie immediately tries to kill Kang while Loki wants to think things through. After a fight, Loki confesses he just wants Sylvie to be okay before the two variants share a kiss.

However, Sylvie is still focused on her mission. She throws Loki back to the TVA and stabs an unfazed Kang. The episode ends with time unraveling as a frantic Loki is unrecognizable by Mobius. The camera then pans out on the shot of a new Kang the Conquer statue at the TVA. Lastly, the post-credit scene reveals Loki will be back in Loki Season 2. Can we get some snaps going for that reading? Woo! Guys, this is every single thing we've been waiting for.

But the first question I have for you, Musa, is you're going to think I'm a little strange for asking this. Where did you grow up? just outside London. So suburb of London. But a very tangential. I mean, kind of like the equivalent of like Pelham in New York.

Right, right. So that kind of outer reach of the city in that sense. Did you guys listen to Hot 97 or Funkflex out there? Both had the Funflex mix tapes bought them.

Oh, all right. So you're not, you're not going to be surprised about what I do next. Well, the adlibs in between. Steve,

do you got, I need you to do some adlips and Steve, do you have my FX is ready. I have some, yeah. All right. I just need to clear the floor for this episode for as critical as I've been in the past.

Is everybody ready? New York City! This is exactly what we stay up until midnight for. This is everything that this show was about. Loki Episode 6. Kevin Fagy ran into the bodega. He took his arm. He took his hand in the cash register and he said this shit is mine.

Gainesda Grizzell. Do you know how delicious? Do you know how delicious this episode was? It was like a bacon and egg cheese sandwich in the goddamn morning. That's how good this episode was, okay? I counted it out. I counted Fagie out. I counted the MCU out.

And boy, they dropped 40 on my ass. This was, this was an episode, an hour of magic, okay? Harry Potter. Oh, Harry Potter himself wouldn't know. what to do with this episode. And all I have to say, guys, is that right now, my man, Musa, please tell

me you were as hyped for this episode of TV as I was. This is when Phase 4 began. Yes. This is when Marvel Phase 4 began. If we're keeping it real, do you know what it is? The thing about Marvel as well, right?

Like earlier, we started the whole earlier phase was a catfish. It was a catfish in the sense of like it pretended that that was the final frontier. You know like in the ceiling above the palace and Asgard, and it's the picture or the kind of, oh, the glorious piece, but behind that facade is what's really going on.

I feel like the entire phase three was just a facade for this. There's that moment when Loki says, is this the greatest power in the universe describing the TVA? And you're like, Loki is scratch. Because this thing, because Loki is a god and Loki is so powerful, Loki senses are the gods, right? This is the thing. And the genius of unlocking phase four with Loki is it takes a God to see a God.

That's why this is so mind-blowing. That's why Locke at the very end, he clocks it because he's a God, because he sees it all. He's like, my guy's telling the truth. We'll get to that and we'll get to that at the end. But I want to kind of say, I'm hyped about it because this was, this was the moment, this was the episode, this was the series, which unlocked Phase 4. Because the rest of it has been, let's be honest, a little bit self-absorbed, a bit of kind of like earthly, worldly concerns.

And Captain Marvel, Captain Marvel tells us, she's like, where have you been? She's like, there's a lot of worlds out there, and none of them have the Avengers. And finally, we are seeing the unprotected universe. We're seeing how dangerous it is in a world with no guardians, a universe with no guardians. This is when it got real, and this is why I'm hyped for this episode and for the next. I can't agree with you more. I think everything that we've gotten before,

was good, but it almost felt like it was still trying to figure itself out after Thanos. Everybody was still dealing with the loss and the grief. And this episode, this series was finally the one being like, you thought what we had for you was big. No, you have no idea. It was like they pulled the curtain. And what I want to ask you, Musa, is like, what was that feeling like when you're watching the season finale of Loki? And then, this is spoiler alert, we're telling you, when you see Jonathan Majors, who, We know for a fact as King appear on the screen for the first time. I audibly gasp.

I almost choked. Terrified because he had the two things that all supervillains have in Marvel and elsewhere. First of all, they love their purple. They love their purple. Yes. And they love their sense of calm. This man was as calm as Ozima. Was he a man?

Is he a creature? Is he a thing? He's as calm as Osseemandius in Watchman. As calm as Stannos. And frankly, here's the thing. What's the thing? They say to Loki, you will beg for something as sweet as pain.

By the time Kang is done with the MCU, they will beg for someone as sweet as Thanos. This, he was utterly terrifying. My man had no security. At least Thanos had security on the kind of in his realm. This guy had a, he had a cartoon AI. You want to know the moment I knew like, like he was about that action.

If you didn't notice, I'm a footwear guy. Right. There's two pieces of footwear. African uncle footwear. He had the African uncle, chancletas. I was like, what is going on? I was like, this is the most evil motherfucker we've ever seen the MCU ever.

We are showing us an African uncle. Do you know the musician, Stromai? No. Oh, amazing Belgian superstar musician. Kind of like a Belgian, like, a mix of like Pete Kanye and Michael Jackson and the rest of it. And he does this amazing video called Taft. and he does like an African dictator. And the genius of Kang is he manifests or he who remains,

he manifests that aspect, even down to the detail. Like he's black and he's leaning into the dictator thing, but there's so much more texture. He's just playing one role. This is the thing that's terrifying about Kang, not to leap around a bit in our outline, but like, what's terrifying is he's so comfortable in any guys

that he is going to take. They've not faced anything like this before. And that's why Loki clocks it. Loki is like, we need to be careful because we've met one of them, and one of them is frightening enough. We can't deal with Infinite Kang's. The thing before we kind of delve really, really deep into the comic book, backstory of King and everything and hiding this secret for so long is that Kang also doesn't seem afraid of death. Like, that is the wildest thing to me where he's one of the first villains. Death isn't an end to him.

He knows there's more of him. It's almost like freedom. And how does Loki, someone who throughout this whole series, has been afraid of various death, his own Silvies, his mothers, he's facing someone who doesn't care. There's so many of them, it doesn't even face it. I was just like, ooh, this is amazing. Well, yes, it is amazing.

And Kang is basically what Hydra is at an intergalactic level. Yes. What was Hydra, a secret society with tendrils everywhere? What is a hydra? A hydra is basically that can reproduce itself infinitely. that's what Kang is doing. And the thing about the scary thing with this episode is, the way he embraces death and life and transition is

Kang is doing this because he's bored. He's so far ahead of the game that he's almost bored. This is what's frightening about him, and this is the danger of... You know that moment when Thor says to the Avengers, he said, you'll use of the infinity stones to show in the earth you're ready for a higher form of war. This is the higher form of war.

This is the highest form. And the one thing I will say about this is a bar. This is the highest fault. And the only else up of the MCU that you can tell who's going to be the key adversaries for Kang, right? Everyone in the Marvel movie that powered up towards the end of Infinity or end game is going to be a key adversary. Everyone that powered up because no one's ready for this. What's Hawkeye going to do? Like Captain Marvel, who basically had Thanos shook within half an hour of arriving, ultimate fourth quarter arrival.

Captain Marvel, Doctor Strange, Thor, and Spider-Man to a certain extent. Basically, this is like everyone that is, and also maybe slightly Professor Hulk, but everyone who is powered up, and also Scarlet Witch, everyone who's powered up intellectually and physically, but primarily intellectually, has got to fight him. No one else is ready for that. So if we go into his comic book origin, which I'll talk about right now, is the funny thing about Kang is

King is different than Thanos in a very specific way because you can't punch him. And I think that's the problem in the comic books and that's going to become the problem in the MCU who have to outsmart him because he's operating on not just a genius level

like a Mr. Fantastic. There's millions upon millions of him. He knows everything. So the heroes, every single time King shows up, it's not like they have to punch, punch, punch King. It's like they have to think on a higher level to outsmart someone who already can read your history. And for those that don't know, I'm going to break it down very, very, very briefly because

Kang is one of the most complicated characters in comic books. The best why I can describe this is that at various times throughout his history, he has been Rommatous, Iron Lad, Scarlet Centurion, and that's just scratching the surface. There's like, damn near a hundred more names. In the comics, King has various origins, but as a result of time travel shenanigans, the most prominent one is Nathaniel Richards. He was born in the 30th century. And if you're like Richards, that sounds right. I mean, like, that sounds like I've heard that name in the comic books. Okay. He is related, supposedly, to read Richards and Dr. Doom. So he's the sire of two of the

smartest people in the MCU. In this episode, what they actually did that was kind of like, I was like, wow, is that they actually fuse him with someone. He who remains actually is not King in the comic books. He Who Remains is the creator of the TVA. He's a completely different character. And for this, they were like, all right, we're going to take basically this guy who I would call him like the oldest, smartest time God in the MCU, and we're going to fuse him with King. That was also what was crazy for me. But what I wanted to ask you now that we got all that kind of like comic backstory out of the way is, where you surprised that Marvel kept this under wraps for this long?

Because I was actually surprised when this happened. Yes, I was surprised. And also I wasn't because they needed another big thing after endgame. When end game finished, I honestly thought, okay, I'm done with the MCU. It's now for the next generation because I kind of gone through a period. You know, you see the first Ironman movie. There's no hint of what's to come in the NCU, right? They're very much Trojan horse about it.

you'd never have guessed that from watching the first Iron Man, we'd end up with endgame. If someone had told me that's the journey I'd go on and enjoying it or my pop card references, I'd never believed it. They needed to hold something back really, really special. And the fact they had Kang lying dormant for so long, that is an absolute boss move. Because what they open up through him as a gateway, if Iron Man was the gateway, the connective tissue of phase three, he was nothing compared to this. This is the thing. Iron Man was nothing compared to what Kang will bring, like the intellect, the smarts.

It's too much almost. And it allows Marvel infinite possibilities. This is the thing. That's the genius of this. And keeping it quiet and the casting is just inspired. It's inspired. Actually, what I wanted, if you can allow me, because you are the guardian of the galaxy brains himself, The one thing that I think Kang actually does do is that the beauty I think of Loki is that it's probably one of the most meta stories that Marvel has ever done. There's a point where Kang says in this episode,

you know you can't get to the end until you've been changed by the journey. And that almost seems like a stand-in for our relationship with the MCU. He's talking to Loki and Sylvie about, it, but we're now at the place with the MCU where they can start breaking story apart, where we're now ready to understand a world where there's millions of loki's, where there's thousands of dimensions and timelines and different things like that.

And the other way they did this in that episode, Kang goes, this game is for the young, the hungry. And you could damn near, that's, Figuke could have said that shit to Florence Pugh. Yes. Years of that. You know what I'm saying? I want to throw in something about Kang, which is my galaxy brain take as well on Kang.

The way that he gets people to induce chaos is by lying. Everything Kang says is true apart from one thing. This is my instant reaction on it. He gives false dichotomies either or. Either you run it in my place and you do it yourselves or you let me do it. But there's a third choice. And that's what Loki is about to me. embrace before he gets a chance to embrace it.

Loki's third choice is, let's go away and tell everyone else about it, get an opinion and come back, have a strategy. And Kang is counting on them going for the either-or-all. And that's the thing that he does. That's how he gets you. That's how dictators get you. Without me, it's chaos. That's how dictators get you.

But how do you bring down a regime? You don't always go and overthrow the ruler. You create conditions for the civil society to prosper. So when the dictators steps aside, civil society is stronger. So that's what Loki is trying to do. He's trying to build up the civil society of the MCU so that we're ready to depose Kang. That's his thing.

But Kang was so clever because he gets you emotional and then he gets you to accept a coin toss. And what you really need to do is, hang on a minute. You need to do the kind of Anton Chaguer in No Country for Old Men when he says, oh, call it. You need to do what the person says, no, it's you, you're the chaos, it's always you, you're creating the chaos.

You need to deconstruct what Kang is doing. That's the only way you beat him because he keeps giving you these binary. Does that make sense? That makes perfect sense. He says it in the episode when he says that's the order of cataclysm of chaos.

You may hate the dictator, but something far worse is going to fill that void if you depose of him. And what I think is so genius about that line is that, like you said, King is this either or type thing.

He's trying to trick the people, trick the gods of trick, the tricks are gods. It's a believing this. And immediately I started thinking of Hydra or Thanos or all these other, all these other people where I'm like, no, this is exactly what a dictator will say. He's just like, no, my way of ruling is better than what you may get. It's the devil you know. I'm the devil you know. And that's what I think

is so genius because is Sylvie wrong? Is Loki wrong? They both are trying to operate the best way they know how, but because like we said, they're facing a villain who knows so much more about history than them, he easily can manipulate both of them. And Loki's, this thing is he can, but Loki's right. Loki's right. This is the tragedy of it. The bit where he goes, you don't trust anyone and I cannot be trusted, she would have bought that from someone like Mobius.

Mobius was like, you were always my favorite. She might have bought that from Mobius. She wouldn't buy it from Loki. She wouldn't. And this is the tragedy. That's the genius of the checkmate here because he knows once he gives him that choice, once Kang, well, once he who remains gives him that choice, the manifestation of him gives him that choice,

he knows what Sylvie's going to do. He knows, and that's that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, he's, on this huge emotional arc, and he's actually become trustworthy, but it's worth nothing, because his track record is so horrifying. I was talking to Ryan about this before, and it's like, Loki cried wolf, Ryan from Stadio, Loki cried wolf for so long, and a wolf finally arrived. Who? The town wasn't, the town wasn't listening anymore.

The town wasn't listening. I will say the one theme that I'm seeing with these new characters, whether it's Soviet or Florence, is have these new heroes that don't know everything that our heroes. They're so young, they're so impetuous, that they can only see one way to operate in the universe. Amazing. I love this because, you know what, that's also,

that speaks to revolutionaries as well. You know, this thing about the game being for the young, I disagree, it's for the old. this game is actually for the old. It is, this is the ultimate game of Thrones. Like, who was the smartest person in Game of Thrones? I would say, it was maybe, I think it was Elena, Eleanor Tyrell. And what did Elena Tyrell say in Game of Thrones?

She said, I was guilty of a failure of imagination. With all the things she knew, with all her age, it's a failure. And the genus of Loki in this is that Loki's imagination does not fail him. It doesn't fail him. He sees possibility. He sees the horror to come. And he's like, do you know what? There's a ton of smart people I know who could figure this out.

You know, on Earth or whatever, he'd have a hard time selling on Midgard, given where he'd just arrive on. No, Loki, 2012, arriving back to the Avengers saying, by the way, you're not going to believe this, but there's something much worse than Thanos. He'd have a hard time selling that. But Loki knows there's people he can go and tell and trust. But Sylvie doesn't have the capacity to imagine because Sylvie's entire life has led to this point. The catharsis of stabbing him.

And, you know, it's funny because this is a very Greek tragedy, right? A Pyrrhic victory. she defeats the villain, the supervillain. And you see in her own eyes, she's like, I've done something terrible. This was too easy. You see her at the end. She's like, I've, yeah, you know, she's like, I've failed.

I think the other thing you see in Sylvie in that moment is that, and I think that this is going to be a running theme through our new heroes, our younger heroes, is that she failed because she did not have friends. She did not have a family. She didn't have any, the only person that she could trust. And she didn't even trust them towards the end is Loki. And I think that's what you're starting to see throughout this, is like you have a younger generation of these heroes who they haven't gone through what

the Avengers have. They haven't gone through Civil War. They don't see what can happen to a world when this team breaks apart. And in a sense, they were further apart in intimacy than they were when they create the Nexus event. Yes. That's the sad thing. They'd grown further apart emotionally.

like Loki fell for her and it becomes clear in the course of the episode in quite a disconcerting way that she hasn't fallen for Loki. Even the kiss, there's no hand on the back of the neck. There's no like, it's surface level. It's not a kind of, it's from his side. It's because he's ready for something that she's not ready for. He's envisaged life beyond all of this already. And she hasn't because she's consumed by this one thing. It's absolutely like, even in the beginning, I think the beginning when she's about to go into the citadel, she's so afraid because that is actually the moment, I think the break in her character,

where she's been, her whole life has been wanting this one thing. And to capture that and to make good on this promise that she made to herself as a young woman, she has to leave that person that might have feelings for Loki behind. She won't let Loki or anybody get in her way. And that's what I think is like, in the beginning, I didn't understand, and I'm like she's afraid, but like, I don't get why.

And I do think that she was having that moment. Like, once I open this door, nothing will ever be the same. I think she was also afraid of like, what if I win? Who am I if I win? Like, this is the thing. What's that tribal quest tune on their last album? Is it enough? Is it enough?

Is this going to be, if I kill whoever's behind that gate, will there be enough? Will I be enough? What will I be if I win? And that moment when she kills he who remains, it's like, Like, what now? This doesn't feel like enough. This isn't right. This isn't the thing.

Maybe the thing that really mattered was 15 seconds ago, and I kissed that man. I pushed through a wormhole into a different reality. I've just sent the person that it was enough for. Like, we could have, if she'd walked, and this were jumping head of the episode, but if she'd walked then with Loki, I think as a part of the multiverse of Kangs

that is a little bit jumpy at that point. because you're not meant to walk away from the prize yet. I wanted to ask you that what did we think about Jonathan Majors acting? Because I do think that like it should not be understated that I do not think King as a character works if he was not so electric in such a confined amount of time. I thought he was operating on a level where I was just like, this is this is inspired castor. He scares me. He scares me. You can't, like the range, the confidence, the calm. If you think about, like, he inhabits an entire palace.

He fills the room. He's sitting in that vast room at that desk. He's pouring a drink with his back to them. And he's fearless. I mean, the way he, this is what my one criticism of, of Sylvie is that I didn't find, first of all, I think that the two criticisms. The first was that I didn't find, I thought, it should have gone to a known actor, the role of Sylvie.

And that's not Sylvie's fault. That's because they had the whole shroud thing. So when the reveal was made, you weren't like, oh my God, that's a girl or that's a woman. You were like, oh, like the reveal was the shroud almost implied to me, and this is my own bias. The shroud implied to me that it was maybe a character that we already knew. I would have thought someone, I recommended someone like Michaela Cole, for example. I said something like Michaela Cole to come out, the shroud would have been like, wow, because then you get the shock factor of it's someone we know, but in a guy that's

completely new. But I thought where Sylvie maybe struggled at first, Sylvie didn't terrify me. If you consider what Sylvie had done as this marauding, time-travelling sort of villain slash anti-hero, Sylvie didn't frighten me enough. But then she grew into that. I feel like towards the last episode and a half, I was like, now I see it. And funny enough, when the moment when Sylvie stabs, he who remains, that was peak Sylvie. That was, that was the mask of it. That's who it really is about because even Loki, Loki was a means to an end. And I don't think Loki realizes that he was kind of played in a way.

Loki was in a way enchanted. Not with any spell, but Sylvie was like, you're enchanted by me. And I wonder how many people Sylvie has enchanted actually. Sylvie's Rihanna, Loki's Drake. He's about to drop an entire album about how he was enchanted. Oh my goodness. That is, you know, the terrifying accuracy of that. To the point where now,

they barely even communicate. And now they're in different realms. Yeah, that's wild. Yeah, that's wild. All right. So I'm going to go, I'm going to go off on a limb. You want to know who King reminded me of, Jonathan Major's portrayal. Have you seen The Matrix for Loaded?

Yes, I was just talking about today. He reminds me of the architect so much when Neo like gets to the architect, right? And basically he has this whole entire like monologue that like, I'm just like all of the screens. And the architects, the whole, even though it's wild. oddly confusing what he's saying. Essentially what he's saying is, I know how this story plays out. I've been here so many times.

You were not the first Neo. Feel the seventh. Feel the seventh, yeah. And the thing that he who remains, King says, that reminded me of the architect, he says, every step you took to get here, Lamentus the void, I paved the road, you just walked down it.

And it's such a, it's such a, going back to like that meta-story angle of this, he's telling them. He's just like, Loki, Sylvie, I've done all, like, I knew how this was going to end. I've been waiting. And the way Jonathan Majors plays it,

he plays it with like this Shakespearean whimsy of just like, hey, this is exactly everything. It's gone exactly according to plan. I knew as the narrator, stuff you did not know. And now the audience is learning it with Sylvia and Loki,

which is so genius. Oh, you know, it's funny how you mention Shakespearean because my first thought when I saw him was, this is theatre. Yes. The kind of acting chops you need to pull off, basically like over half an hour. I don't know how long the dialogue scenes were,

but most of it is just talking. The acting chops you need to pull that off. It's theatre. And even the set, the set could have been the Young Vic in London, any theatre set, even the way, like, even the streaky marble,

the gorgeous marble setting, this is a theatre set. You're basically putting an incredible amount of faith in the one-to-one. Like my favorite character the entire series, still by a small margin, is still Mobius, only because Mobius in the face-to-face interviews was just mind-blowing. Owen Wilson in the face-to-face it was mind-blowing. But if they'd had him in a couple of episodes, Jonathan Majors, he'd quickly be up on that

because you are meant to have, in this character, in the supervillain Kang, you're meant to have someone who is as terrifying, as iconic as Ozzy Mandius, as Josh Brolin and Stannos, you know, as Heller. And they manage, like, Heller is, they better bring Heller back at some point because everyone else involved, but honestly, if we get like Heller coming through again, you know, this is, we really are in a, we're in a special new phase and he is the key to this. He's so charismatic. He can hold an entire room. I mean, this is, this was next level. Like, Marvel's casting is pretty much 100%. But there's very few casting choices in the course of the last how many years, they've actually got wrong.

And they've nailed this one. They've nailed it. Dude, I, like, I can't, I can't agree. More. What he said to play, what it made me think of is even when he's talking about the Council of Kings, it's almost like they're watching a play. Loki and Sylvie are watching a play, this whole tragic comedy of the Kings killing each other. And he's like the playwright just laughing because he knows how it's going to end. And what I want to know from you is like, what did you, what did you make of the two decisions that he gave to the Loki's? Where he's basically like, hey, you can kill me. Because at that point, he does not know what's going to happen.

He's gotten to the edge of time and what he knows about time. And he gives them two choices. He's like, y'all can take over the TVA, spend it here together, or you can kill me and basically cause another multiverse war. And that also to me is like a very dictator type thing to say because he's just like, he's giving them two choices when they have more than two choices. Exactly. That's exactly my point. Exactly my point. This is the genius of what he does. He tricks them. He tricks them with a full spinaum because he paints a picture so terrifying and he knows they're emotional. They'll go with one or the other. But anyone who's ever looked at any dictator, Saddam Hussein, Assad and Syria, this is what they always say. Like, you know, without me, there will be chaos and stability. They don't say that actually there's the nuance to building something. something different. He knows nothing else is going to happen. And actually, he's a bit like,

have you read like Mike Carey's Lucifer, graphic, the graphic novel? No, I've read his comics. I haven't read his book. So the Lucifer, the graphic novel that he writes, the comics, are basically like Lucifer wants to leave hell. Yeah. Very similar to like this character like, He Who Remains, because he's created this whole world, but it bores him because he wants to experience something fresh and new. Kang or, you know, he who remains in this. wants to experience free will, right? But still wants to retain control, which is why he gives the binary choice.

He wants the free will, the choices that he gives are the choices to allow himself to be set free. He says that basically, either you run the TVA and let me go off and do my thing, or you leave me in charge. But there's other choices, right?

Now, he gives those choices because he doesn't want them to embrace anything else because that could diminish his power in an unknown world or realm. He knows there's other options out there that can diminish his power or diminishes freedom. It doesn't want them even to entertain them, which is why Loki's hesitation is so vital.

That's going to come back to be the most important five seconds of the phase four. Loki's hesitation. Because when Loki gets to the TVA or the other version of it, he knows what they've done. So let's dig into that because I think a big theme of this entire series

has been free will. Right. Who gets to take it away, who gets to wield it? Should it be for everyone? When Loki, when they pluck Loki out of New York, he's only a couple hours removed from trying to enslave the entire world and thinking that free will is chaos. And I think the thing that Ravona says when she's like, only one person gets free will, the one in charge, speaks so much to like everything that this series has been trying to grapple

because we go from Loki transitioning from New York to realizing fighting for free will, for fighting for the people in the TVA to know about what's happened to them. And he wants, even in that moment with Sylvie, when he's fighting, what he's actually fighting for her is for her to actually make a choice

with all of the information that she has. Not one that's purely based on emotion. He's like, let's take some time. Because I think, I say this to everyone. I think one of the most precious commodities that we have is time and often the time to make decisions. Because when tragedy strikes, we feel like we don't have time.

Everything happens so, so, so fast. We have to make so many snap decisions. People don't realize in life so much what people really need more of is the time. And that's the thing that Loki is trying to give Sylvie in that moment. Like, let's just have time to figure out what we can do. But she can't think past her, tragedy, past her trauma, past her life. All she wants is this one thing. And I think that's such a

beautiful thing of free will of like, Loki is about free will, but it's also about what what free will gives you, which is time. Yes. And also it's the false dichotomy of like freedom being chaos. Yes. Absolutely not. Oh, if it's, if it'll be chaos, no, there's like, there's a lot of people that are free. There's a lot of societies, you know, indigenous societies that organized, you know, prior to borders and whatever, that had really wonderful order, and it was about the bigger picture and the big scale. And these things, it's always, dictators always talk in absolutes. There's a moment, which series was it in? Was it in Falcon Winter's Soldier? Daniel Burel is talking about superheroes and why he hates them. Bucky calls out Zima and says, I think that's how

dictators are God's talk, calls out the false dichotomy. And Loki calls out, calls it out. But the tragic thing is, the entire fate of phase four turns where the Loki's being listened to. So it's like, this is a true Greek tragedy. It's also, I find it so hilarious that we started the Avengers with basically Loki being like this herald of Thanos. And now we're starting this new phase with him being the guy's like, guys, I'm trying to stop Kay. It's such a version of like what we know. Like, he's the guy who's trying to stop the next Thanos. He's like, guys, guys, please just listen to me. Yeah, and it's, you know, so wild about it.

There's an epic phase, the epic phrase that Thanos uses to Loki, I will bathe the starways in your blood. And I'm like, whoa, that is, Phanos said that, but there's nothing Thanos said as terrifying as anything that he who remains or Kang said in that room. There's nothing as terrifying as that. Just the fact that like, because Thanos is making threats, right? But this one is like, this is just giving. facts. You know,

Thanos is like, oh, this might happen. Kang is like, this, well, he who remains is like, this has happened. And that's also happened and that's happened and all of it has happened. And there's not a thing you could do to stop it happening. You reminded me of bringing up Winter Soldiers that like, this is actually our second

Disney Plus show that has dealt with what happens when this all-powerful being robs you of your free will. Because this is exactly what Wanda does to everybody in the town without even knowing it. And we have, and we have to watch what happens when it's Wanda's order, quote unquote, order. Because in the comic book, she's like, she's the, they call it chaos magic.

That's what her powers are. And I do find it funny that now this is honestly, you could argue the third MCU show that is really trying to dig into what does it mean to have free will. What does chaos and order mean? And what I think we're getting that and we can go here next is the multiverse. Yes. Right. The multiverse is the embodiment of chaos, of story chaos, of character chaos, of everything that we know is going to happen.

We have he who remains who's trying to like keep this chaotic story contained because he almost like, like he's Shakespeare and he knows how this play unravels. This is this, I believe he says that he stopped one multiverse war. This would be a second. Like this is his World War II. He's like, guys, I know how this is going to end. And it's like, I just find that beautiful that like now with this third show, we're ramped up. We exactly know where everything is going.

We're ramped up. And what would be really incredible would be what I think is going to be really exciting and interesting in these movies and series to come. Because you have heroes operating in such vastly different power levels, I'd be blown away to see a series in which the heroes were just hopelessly upmatched all the time. A series about failure. Do you know, I'd love to see? You know, like, when Thor went looking for those infinity stones for like two years and went everywhere in the world, everywhere in the universe and couldn't find them, couldn't find a single infinity stone in like, and this is Thor, like flying at like fast

and light speed, using the bifrost, powered up, not to the full extent, not to the full extent that's going to fight call the god butcher, but, you know, pretty, still pretty badass, Thor. It doesn't find a single stone. And I think a very metamival series would be about the disempowerment of hero. that are just completely out of their depth. Like, I think the bravest thing, the bravest superhero in the MCU is still Spider-Man when he jumps on Thanos' ship.

That is the gutsiest thing in the MCI. I got Shivers thinking about it because he knew he was only, this man was operating within his own jurisdiction, within his neighborhood, and then he scales up to fight Thanos. I'm fascinated in the MCU to see heroes who are so outmatched in physical terms

and maybe slightly intellectually making ultimate sacrifices. That is what I think is. exciting in terms of this power differential we see now. I think that has created the room for storytelling far richer than we've seen before, to be honest. If we're talking about you brought up Infinity War, do you think what Sylvie does is worse than what Star Lord does with Thanos? Is the mistake bigger? Because I was getting into an argument with Jomi and Steve where this is the classic time travel paradox of if you could go back in history and have the chance to kill baby

Hitler, would you? That's essentially what, like, King is trying to, like, trick her into thinking. That, hey, kill me. I've done all these things. Like, basically, like, do whatever you want. And all she can think about is, like, damn, I can kill Time, Baby Hitler. Should

I do it? Yeah, but even the funny of the baby Hitler thing is funny, like, because even that, you could go back in time and give Germany a different political deal post-first World War. And then there's never the conditions for Hitler to become Hitler because Germany is not humiliated in quote marks on the international stage.

Yeah. So again, again, it's like, what is our, this is why I think that Sylvie's mistake is worse. Hmm. It's because Sylvie's failure of imagination has far greater consequences than Star Lords. If you consider all the things that we know about what's coming, like Thanos is, what's that, what's that phrase, uh, he who remains uses to Loki, your, your flees on the back of a dragon.

Yes. Thanos is a flea on the back of Kang's dragon. We just didn't, we didn't know it. And that is why this is like, this mistake, as horrifying as Star Wars mistake was, this is even worse. And Loki knows it. Loki knows it. I was here to defend Sylvie for a while, but now I really can't. The funny thing is, is like, what is reminding me to is, like, King at one point when he's

doing the little play of like all the Kings and the war and the multiverse of war, there's this, there's this picture of him when he's still a scientist, when he's. when he's still a scientist and he had discovered time travel. And there's like universe upon universe upon universe. And that to me is like the way that the heroes will have to start thinking. You just can't think on one played. You have to think like up, down, sideways, across. Like you have to think in a way that the human mind isn't trained to do.

Because he remains is thinking in a way of time where he's like, he's been alive for so long. He knows the past. He knows the future. He knows the present. and it's like they're going to have to figure out a way to think on that level. That is exactly, this is like Interstellar. So shout out to Christopher Nolan for this reference. That amazing trailer, the second trailer for Interstellar, which to me is one the greatest

pieces of film, even if I say three minutes long, the greatest film ever recorded. Wait, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What is one of the greatest films ever? Just the trailer for Interstellar. Oh, I was not to say, I was good at, I thought you said the whole movie. I was like, whoa, whoa. No, the second trade of interstellar, it's like two minutes, 20, whatever it is, is on the greatest pieces of filmmaking of a scene.

the voice over Michael Kane, we have to think far beyond our lifetimes. We'll have to embrace a possibility for instead of travel. Like, superheroes are going to have to be ready to die. And for things that they did set in motion 5,000 years earlier, they have to start playing chess moves in their lifetimes and be like, this chess move is not going to work out

until 5,000 years from now and two universes from now. Like if you look at the multiverse, If you look at each universe, if you look at all universes as an infinite chessboard, that's the level they've got to think of, like, infinite chessboard where I'm doing something now, I'm going to kill myself now, and 25,000 years in the past, that move becomes relevant, and Kang is going to be like, that's what it's got to go to. It's got to go to a level of like they have to play interstellar chess at this point. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business.

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Be a 2%er. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward slash active cash terms of play. But right now, I don't want to give our man Mobius short strip. You know what I'm saying? Back at the TVA, what I found so interesting about this, is that when Ravona even realizes everything that's going on, she says it can't all have been for nothing. And that to me is the most genius thing about, honestly,

any bureaucratic force, is that, you know, I grew up in a military family and I would have debates and everything. And one thing that they do teach you is that it's for this greater good. Now, what the greater good is always changes. You were taught to follow commands and instructions. But there's this feeling of was it for nothing when you're one part of this massive bureaucratic organization of like I'm working to a greater good.

And you see Ravona at a moment being like, I devoted eons. Like she hasn't devoted 30, 40 years of her life. She's devoted eons to a cause that now Mobius, who is her best friend, is saying, it didn't matter. Everything we know doesn't matter. You have to change your thinking. And like,

that to me is heartbreak. It is and it isn't. Like, because I've just finished watching Chernobyl. And there's a scene where one of the senior bureaucrats basically, um, who's involved in like looking at this nuclear disaster and unpicking it, he's, you know, he gets, you know, he's terminally ill and he's talking and he says, I was an inconsequential man, Valerie. That's who always was. I was an inconsequential man. And his friend, his fellow scientist, his scientist was like, no, he said, you're a good man. You're a good man. He reassures him. And I think in moments of people doubt themselves, you've got to give them something.

You've got to give them something because, you know, we have to exist. And yeah, it's heartbrain to the extent that I've wasted all this time. If you can talk to someone and be like, actually, there's so much good in you, there's a connection to you. And actually, that experience wasn't wasted. And I think in that moment, I don't think she was open to it. But I think Mobyus could have given her more, actually. He could have given her more. He even tries. He even tries. What happened to? He tries.

He tries the kind of, and this is the genius of Mobius and the best of mass character. He so often encourages people towards a greater good. He sees good and low-key. You know, he sees redemption in people. He's very powerful. He sees it in Rvona. She has the chance. Right, yeah.

So he really is the embodiment of free will, actually. He's the embodiment of free will, actually. if you think about it. And that's why I find him like he's the emotional core of all of this. This man has been betrayed, like, just as bad as anyone, the most loyal foot soldier, he's gone out that he's murdered children and like innocent. He's pruned, as far as he knows, he's murdered children. He's pruned entire timelines. He as much as anyone has blood in his hands, but he steps away and goes, no, we have to tear it down. Here's the embodiment of free will, informed choice and humanity and kindness and all those things the Greeks tell us about the good life. That's what he is.

So do you feel robbed, if I could ding the finale for anything, my man Mobius has gone through the ringer and all he wanted was his jet ski. Yes. And by the end of this, no jet ski, no happiness for him. Maybe he hasn't earned it yet. Because like you said, this is a man who has pruned children, women, innocent people. We do know, spoiler alert, that there's a Loki season two. And I do think that, like, narratively, what has to happen is that it's questions

that we have in the real world today. Can you recreate an organization that is rotten at the core? And I think that that's what the TVA is going to have to deal with because they were created by Kang for reasons that weren't great. the foundation is not solid and they have done some

like some unforgivable things and I am interested to see once Mobius comes to a census again can you can you make the TVA serve a noble purpose or is it one of those things where it's so rotten at the foundation

that there's no saving I don't think it's rotten because I think it could be a safe haven I think it could be like almost like a it's a refuge for broken souls. It's effectively a refugee center for broken souls. And it's, you know what it is? It's a center for atonement. It's a center for atonement. They have the means to reach out into multiple universes and tell people what's coming. They have the knowledge, the know-how, the transportation,

it's a place for atonement. I think it's actually, it could become a very beautiful rallying point. I was talking to a friend of mine, a lovely man, Yura Gombash, Yura, shout out to Yura. He is based in Slovenia. There's a point of the story. And he was in the war in the 1990s in the Balkans. And he managed to flee the war. It's an amazing, it's a cinematic story. Marvel should take it, actually. His father drove through seven hours of checkpoints

to extract him from the war at the age of 19, the middle of the night. Incredible story. Yeah, incredible story. Eura and his fellow friends who escaped the army, most of them were murdered, but most of, or killed in the war, all of his friends now do reconciliation, atonement work, all of them. they've taken a TVA type environment

and they've turned to something beautiful, a place for atonement. And I think that the fact that humans have done that on the earth, a friend of mine has done that, the TVA can do that. And it can become something beautiful, actually. I think there's a really, there's something really exciting about the scientific possibilities

of using the TVA to reverse the negative flow, the terrible consequences, because you see how people are horrified when they wake up to it. Look how quickly people have been doing the TVA's work for so long are horrified at what the TV really is.

Well, that also speaks to free will and mind control and all of these things. And compassion, and human compassion. Yeah, did they know what they were doing is my biggest thing? Did Mobius know what he was doing or when he was pruned from the timeline? They all don't know.

Still, I don't think Mobius knows where he's from. So it's not like he's a human on earth anymore. The way he's thinking is he was taught from whenever he was pruned that this is your mission, follow it blindly. And like you said, there's human compassion. I think you can make the argument when they wake up. That's their true humanity.

That's when they're just like, what have we been doing? How can I fix it? Because every one of them aren't like, you know, F this, I'm out. Like, send me back to my timeline. They're all like, oh my gosh, what are we doing? How can we start atoning? And I do think what's funny too for Loki is that I predicted wrongly that Loki was going to die at the end of this.

but I think something worse happened to him. When Sylvie pushes him back to the TVA, it's almost like a purgatory because he's so close, he knows how it can be. He knows he's had this emotional journey with Mobius, and then it's all taken away from him. And he has to reliving. That was, I was just like, oh, this is a fate worse than death.

It's far worse. It was just, I was like, oh, I felt for Loki in that. Yeah, it did because he, He arrived basically, he arrived basically in the kind of the North Korean version of the TVA. The TVA was extreme before, but it had the timekeepers as kind of this like facade, right? And he was running from behind the timekeepers, who I always, I mean, I think I said this to Mal as well. I always felt that the timekeepers were suss. I always felt there was something, I always felt the timekeepers were a facade for something,

because even the iconography of the timekeepers in the courtroom was very similar to the iconography on the ceiling of the palace and Asgard. And I'm like, that's a false facade. Marvel foreshadows these things too much. It shows us these big panels, but it's telling us as something behind them. The version of the TVA that obviously Loki arrives in is even more extreme because you've got the statue of Kang.

It's like Kim Jong-il. King-Yung-un. Like it's like, it's the mask off. It's like, yes, this is our great overseer. That to me was like, Loki knowing what he's seen and what he's arrived in. He has suffered. It's funny.

You look at suffering in the MCU. Suffering in the MCU is actually, it's interesting. It's very unfairly apportioned suffering. Thor suffers in the MCU more than anyone. It's horrifying what he goes through. But actually, Loki may now match Thor's level of suffering. By the time this Loki bumps into Thor again, which he will at some point, he'll be like, brother, I understand.

And Thor will be like, you're different. He's like, you're Loki. But you know, I'd love for Thor to meet this Loki and be like, you're different and not know about variance or anything. I'd love the Thor of God, of Love and Thunder to meet this Loki and be like, brother, I thought you were dead. And he's like, yeah, I was. And I am in a sense. I saw myself die. And he'd feel it.

He'd be like, you're not, you're not mischievous. You're not chaotic. You're not. And then he would be like, the knowledge that Loki had been that different was the, and I'd love it to be just like one meeting. are like an intergalactic truck stop where Thor goes to get some like goes to refill the spaceship and they're like, you're at a service station.

I'd love them to meet at a service station the end of nowhere and him to meet Loki and be like, you're my brother, but you're different. Well, let's talk about that. Before we get into the future, I think another big, super big theme of the entire series of Loki is our capacity to change.

That's from the beginning of the first episode. Can Loki change? Can a Loki change? And what I find that, it's almost like Chekhov's gun, is that from the first episode to the last episode, the thing that does Loki in is another version of himself,

is Sylvie not believing in their capacity to change. And that's the thing that ruins, everything that ruins the plan is because Sylvie cannot see a world where Loki is someone who can believe in something bigger than himself. He's not thinking of himself first,

which I find very ironic, because in the previous episode, we saw an old Loki sacrifice himself for something bigger than him. Bingo, bingo, and this is the problem, the authoritarian mindset of Sylvie, that people cannot change and therefore they must have ordered him post. It's actual authoritarian mindset.

You're incapable of redemption. You're incapable of change. So I need to take control. So Sylvie basically murders he who remains with an authoritarian mindset. She does it because of that. because she's deep down authoritarian and doesn't believe Loki's capable of change, she's like, this is man's nature, this is man's destiny. And you know who talks to that as well? Henry Kissinger, when he was talking about China, I think it was Russia. He said that Russia was

achieving its national destiny. And what he meant by that was, oh, Russia is just going to be an authoritarian state. So that's how we must always engage with Russia. Now, when people treat entire bodies of people or individuals, as in capable of change, emotional social change, they're preparing to do one thing. Kill them. That's the, when dictators talk, and that's when when Sylvie talked like that, I was like, you saw a different side. It's like when Frodo takes the ring for himself. It's that moment, you see Sam's face.

Like, you know, like Tom Hiddleston was like, you know, he was, Loki was like, it was like Sam in that moment. He was like, Frodo, no. It was like, this was their Mount Doom, wasn't it? Oh. This was their Mount Doom. And Mordor was right, like Sauron was right there. And Sylvie turned away with the ring, and that was it.

And she knew she'd done it. She knew she'd done it. It is, I think that it's such a beautiful moment and a tragic moment that what we also get is like Loki being in love for the first time. Yeah. And then Sylvie being the one to betray him, what I thought was so funny about that. maybe this will change by the end of season two,

he does not seem affected by that. It's almost like he's the Thor in this situation now, where his love is so grand that he's just like, I don't care how many times I'm betrayed, even if it's by this woman that I love, I still want to save her. And that's what a big part of Thor's journey was, is seeing a good in Loki that he could not see in himself.

And Loki's eyes at the end, it's funny because I thought to myself, you know, there's a moment at the end of the taming and the shrew, when the character's giving it, she's giving a monologue and you're like, has she been changed by the misogent society to take out of take men's orders, or is she playing us for fools? And the way that she delivers the final monologue is basically the key. If she delivers the monologue in a submissive way, with a wink at the end,

you're like, oh, she's not how to play the game, but she's completely submissive she's been taken in by it. And there's a moment at the end of this, the end credits when you're looking at Loki going, the look in his eyes is the tell. if his eyes turn hard he's going to become a rampaging Loki he'll go back to being a nasty human being

or a nasty God because that's all he knows and he's been ruined and he's you know he's up one of those guys that basically like to be honest like one like Drake type lyrics where one bad experience with one woman dams all women but you see the look in Loki's eyes at the end and he's not going to do that his eyes are softer

there's a pain there and you're like actually I think he's going to be someone to root for in season two because his challenge in the next season will be to allow his softness and his compassion to prevail. And the hint that we get at the very end of this season one is that his softness, his compassion will prevail and they will be tested. I think that's what is setting up. Does that make sense? That makes perfect sense. And that's a great segue. Because I have a question for you, Lissa. Have you ever been stabbed in the back?

Fortunately, only, only metaphorically. But yes, I have been metaphorically stabbed in the back. I have some Loki. I'm the Thor and I have some lokies in my life. Okay? This podcast, for those that don't know, is called The Midnight Boys. It is a brotherhood. But two people on the Midnight Boys did not get that memo. So would Jomi and Steve like to step up and maybe Musa, you can help us out with this argument? Ha, ha, ha. Here they are. Here we go. Here we go. So I'm just going to say, first, I just wanted to pose for the MCU family yesterday on Twitter. hey, you know, maybe it's time we have an honest dialogue about phase four of Marvel.

I didn't say good, bad. I just said honest. I'm just like, let's just be honest. I wanted us to hash it out like we was at a family reunion. And Jomi and Steve had Twitter fingers. You know what I'm saying? They wanted to come out their boy. Yeah, but that's very much their energy.

That is their energy, to be honest. Thank you, Musa. That is their energy. They are. They are variants. They are variants. No, Joemy is definitely a fucking, he's definitely a loki variance. Listen, listen.

I be getting the tweets off. I'm not going to, I'm not going to, listen, you see that? I was just saying like, guys, this is your, I told, I told the audience, everything was going to be answered. Now, I just said I wanted an honest dialogue and y'all was out here. You know what I'm saying? You were meek Mill. You was hopping out here.

And I was like, before I dish you on wax, I want to give you the time to air out your grievances. Please, guys go. Jimmy, why don't you go first? All right, so here's a thing, man. it's been three television series. And at that point in the tweet, we hadn't seen episode six of Loki yet, right? You feel me?

Very important. Very important. Very important. Very important. So it's, you know, Wanda Vision, Falcon and Winter Soldier, the first five episodes of Loki and Black Widow, right? That's all we've had, okay?

Is that not enough for a mid-year evaluation? Absolutely not. What? What are you talking about? It's way too early. Imagine sitting there and Iron Man 2 going, hey man, we have to talk about this universe thing, man. I don't know.

Like, give us a shot. We've got one movie. This is the first time we're seeing the television shows come through. I'm going to fend myself, Musa, really quick. When you're in school and you're doing bad, you're doing bad, does the teacher try to call you up and be like, hey, like, what's going on at home? Is everything all right?

I just, as a Marvel family, as an MCU family, I just wanted to hash it out with everyone. I was just trying to see where we was at. And they came for you. And they came for me. To run with this metaphor, you call the principal on us after the first quiz of the quarter.

All right, there was three TV shows. There was three TV shows in a movie. I think that's, we saw enough. We're getting four films this year. And Charles, in knowing how you've been these past three series on the eve of the finale. That was an.

incredibly bad faith tweet to make. I said honest. You just made. You just saw the best episode. I just, I did. And did I give a props? No,

no, no, no, you, no, you, I gave the props now. No, no,

this is, this is your Kang moment. You gave us a coin toss. I have some sympathy. I have some sympathy because, I have to say, because everyone of Jamie's tweets is a nexus event. So I have the last.

I have the last. I don't, listen, I get on. I log in every day. And I don't take prisoners. I'm here for violence every single. I'm going to say ever since Jomey went to Palmdale and came back. I was thinking my man was a varying. I don't think Jamie came back. The different one

came back. There was a different energy. His violence works for him though. It works for him. He's a crocodile Loki. All right. He's ready for that hand. I'm ready for the X. Here's a thing, Charles. Can we just see? We have a crocodile, crocodile, crocodile, loki. Oh my God. Can we just break out the incredible, I know we talked about the last, last podcast, but Crocodile Loki. Oh, my God. acting, the eyes. Jonathan Majors, who? Like, honestly, I would say, I would say they need to give, they need to give

frog, frog, uh, Frog, uh, Arlegate to Loki. And alligator Loki like, a spinoff right now. The people need it. Oh, you know that, you know they have. You know they have, though. You know they have. If Don Chito does win that Emmy, he needs to give it to Alligator Loki, I think. It's ultimately what needs to happen. You know what?

We're at the part of the podcast. I'm glad Jomey's on. I'm glad Steve on. I have a game for everyone. And I haven't told anybody this game. Are you guys willing to play a game? Yeah, cool. Let's get it. All right. This game is, who will fuck up the multiverse worse? Because right now, Dr. Strange is sitting at home. Like, just like, what, what have you done? What have y'all done? Like, I was

out on a date and y'all just went wild. So I got a few I got a few nominees we're going to talk them through. My first one, I'm sorry Tom Holland Spider-Man. I don't trust him. I don't trust Tom Holland with the MCU spoilers and I don't trust him with my multiverse. So he's our first candidate. How bad do we think Tom Holland is going to screw up the multiverse?

Badly because he's a straight white guy. So he's not got any natural predatory. Woo! This is why we want Musa on the Midday Boys. Musa's tapped it. Put a coofy and some glowing eyes on Musa. Wait, I'm just going to be honest. I knew Tom Holland was up to no.

I was, I knew Tom Holland was up to no good because I saw some like paparazzi photos of like him and Zunday together. And I was just like, you've been plotting an evil man, an evil man. So I also do think too, like, I don't know what Toby McGuire is going to do. I don't know, Andrew Garfield. Like he might have, he might have some pain that they only gave him two movies. I think Spider-Man is right now my frontrunner. Is that fair? Yeah.

Yeah, I think it is fair because I think when I say, straight white government is he's not aware of the level of danger that inhabits daily life. Look at the internet, you know, when the internet was created, right? When the internet was created, all these benign white tech bros had no idea of the harassment could be used for at scale. They thought it was a beautiful place. Actually, the reason he might mess up the MCU is because he is unaware of the scale of the threat. Because Loki is chaos incarnate.

He knows what chaos incarnate looks like up close. But Spider-Man is just like, what's that thing? the joke is I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do if I got one. Exactly. Exactly. This is my fear. Musa, who's your person?

Character. Star Lord messed up the original phase. So it's always a mixture of fierce purpose and overwhelming it's love that's ruined it, isn't it? You look at like Star Lord, right? He did that for love, really.

He did it like heartbreak, heartbreak or shattered reality, where they couldn't see differently. So, like, he couldn't imagine a life without Gomorrah, and so he went for Thanos, because he was in grief. And Sylvie was grieving the life that she'd lost, and she went for Thanos.

And she went for, he who remains. Those have been the two things that basically ruined, have ruined the two previous universes slash multiverses, right? So the next person to do it, I don't know if we've seen that grief yet, but it could be Thor. It could be Thor, because Thor, Look, love and thunder, right?

Thor has been broken so often. He's going to meet his ex again. She'll have Godlike powers. If I call the Godbunch, Thor could lose even more and then be heartbroken, have the choice. I think it could be Thor. That's my money.

If I'm going ultra-galaxy brain, the person that might mess it all up for our king is someone who's probably more dangerous than an old king, and it's a young king, aka Iron Lad, from the Young Avengers, who in the comic books comes back in time,

and it's just like, yo, I'm trying to be a hero. I want to outlive, like, my past is Kang. So I do think Ironland potentially could show up. And when we have all of these, like, King the Conquerors trying to mess everything up, he's the sole guy being like, I can be good, I can be good, I can be good. And that has catastrophic implications for the timeline. So he's my dark horseback. The time line is destroyed.

The reason I don't think it's scarlet, which is because the timeline is destroyed by good intentions. I think her good intentions are to bring her children back. That's great. No, but no, no, but there's a revenge. There's a revenge energy there because she's chaotic. Do you know what I mean? Like, if you think about, like, Sylvie was trying to do the right thing.

Starlaw trying to do the right thing. But like, they were so consumed by their way of doing the right thing that it ruined for the greater good. They were trying to do the right thing for the greater good, right? Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a little selfish. Yeah, yeah, but that's why I don't think it's going to be scarlet, which, because I think it's almost like, it's too easy to make her the villain.

and Marvel doesn't like doing that. It doesn't like giving us our easy wins. It likes us to win at the bottom of the night. It doesn't, you know what I mean? It doesn't quite. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that Charles brought up Ireland, though,

because that's my Young Avengers agenda. We out here, see, it's all coming together. Joe me and me are back. It's all coming together. This is what I love. Yo, Joey, Steve, I'll call you soon. I wanted to wrap up really quick with Musa. We've talked about, you know,

everything with the last episode of Loki. I think both of us, I would argue just this season has easily been my favorite part of this phase. Yeah, and we've missed one part as well. The most terrifying cartoon fascist of all time, Miss Minutes. We'll get into that. That's a footnote for another time, but I just want to shout up to Miss Minutes who being an absolutely terrifying cartoon fascist. Super terrifying. Amazing, amazing. What I wanted to know from you is that, you know, when I was joking around on on on old Twitter's yesterday.

I do think that if we're being fair, that this phase of Marvel has been shaky where I think they for a while were trying to find their footing

after having decades upon decades of building this massive world. And I liked Wanda Vision in spurts. I liked Falcon in the Winter Soldier in Spurts. I like Black Widow in Spurts.

But it still felt like almost, I don't know, like an epilogue to the Infinity Saga and not this new thing. And Loki feels like it's new. It seems like now the Marvel universe has a purpose again. So was it fair in maybe some people thinking? Because a lot of people got back to me and you're just like,

yeah, I don't know what to think about this phase. And I think that the last episode of Loki gives a lot of people hope. I think it's fair to feel how you feel. Like, look, I mean, yes, it's early in these phases, but each the show has very very, different texture. One Division, Falcon Winter Soldier, Loki, and Black Widow. Those are very different offerings. Stylistically, visually, music, everything, all different, right? So then even dialogue, like, you know, the Shakespearean dialogue of visioners, you only really find that at the end of

the Loki. But Loki is, but this was deliberate for Marvel as well. To Marvel's credit, they knew that Loki would be this. They were warming us up to Locke. They wouldn't have worked as the first show in Facebook. Oh, it wouldn't have, not at all. Because they had to deal with the snap. Like you can't just like get rid of, they had to deal with the fallout and they had to have that epilogue. So I'm sympathetic to that extent with the story. And I think some of the storytelling in Falcum Winter Soldier, I think some of the storytelling was in the wrong order. I felt like they could have had the scene when they fixed the boat in the second episode and have them bond much earlier because then you've got the kind of

the emotional arc is stronger. So by the end, every piece of sacrifice rings truer. That's my one criticism of Falcon Winter Soldier. I think the emotional arcs were built too late. So small things like that. But I'm sympathetic to the placement of Loki because I do really feel they were like, we have to keep our powder dry and we have to risk people not coming on the journey with us until Loki arrives. And when Loki arrives, even when the Loki season arrives, you have vast stretches of dialogue that we don't have in other series.

Like you've got people talking, you've got basically like, this is, Loki is the most theatrical of all of them. You're putting a lot of pressure on the individual actors to deliver. you're putting a lot of pressure on the writers. It's the bravest series in the MCU so far, and that's why it's the best. If there's any lesson for Marvel in season two or whatever, it's like keep being brave because that's what gets you the results.

And people are ready for chaos. I will say, too, you know, I was just thinking that even if some of the other parts of this phase I haven't liked as much, just getting Sam to be cap, in the way they did, immediately I was just like the moment that I see Cap

say Avengers Assemble against Kang, I'm going to scream because now not only do we have the leader of the whole MCU being a black man, we have the next big bad as a black man.

And I was just thinking of Blade. Oh my God. We have Monica Rambo. There's got us in there somewhere. Ironheart, Patriot, possibly a new Black Panther.

We're going to an Avenger squad. That might be half black. Do you know how excited I fucking am for this? I think it's a whole vibe. It's a whole vibe. Yeah, it's a whole vibe. It's like the O8 Celtics. It's like, you know, and really to me, to me it's like with this,

here's a galaxy brain take last of all. If the theme of the first one, of the last phase was order, if the prevailing theme of the last phase was order, Thanos Spring Order, and the prevailing theme of this phase is chaos. Does that make sense? So like if you look at the central characters, Cap, Ironman and Thanos,

they were really, it was really order. That's what defined their thing. Yeah. A plate of art, a suit of arm around the world. Cap with the military background, obviously subverting that, but you know, good order as opposed to bad order, Hydra.

So his cap was still an order mindset, and Thanos was very much the ultimate authority and order. The theme of this is, is chaos. And that's exciting. That tells us that Dr. Strange will be absolutely central. It's coming in late into the MCU,

but will be a dominant character. Loki and Dr. Strange could be the dominant characters. Dr. Strange being the guy who at least is going to carry not only his movie, but he's going to be in Spider-Man, and I have to assume he's going to have some type of deal with Loki.

I would have never thought. And this version of Loki, and this version of Loki turning up in other Marvel movies. Oh, I think it's reported that he's going to turn up in the multiverse of madness. So what we're essentially getting, and this has happened in the comics, is you get the three best sorcerers in the entire Marvel universe in one movie. I'd never thought that that was going to happen.

It's incredible. It's incredible. We've honestly seen nothing. We've honestly seen nothing yet. This is what excites me about it. And I'm here for all the intergalactic weirdness they can throw at us. Well, I do also think when we, when I, I was bringing up kind of like how meta-loki got about really what a story is, what a

hero's journey is. Because all Marvel shows, all Marvel TV has always been about, it's a very similar hero's journey. And I think this phase, if it's about chaos, it's also about breaking that hero's journey. How can we subvert expectations? How can we make our heroes contort? So it's not just like this one. static way of telling stories.

It's something that's new and inventive. And I think that's what you're going to get when you see a bunch of Spider-Men. It's the same feeling you get when you see a bunch of loki's all happening at the same time, all having different heroes journeys that are all subverted a little bit. They're doing something that in storytelling, at least, has not been done on this scale, which excites me. Oh, my God. And what excites me so much, and I mentioned before, like, Balsack, the human comedy of,

like, having all these different characters coming in and out of different books and whatever. And, like, they thought there could be lots of different Loki's, coming in up in different books. And they're really priming us. This entire Loki season, let's get really meta, is a Trojan horse, because it's priming us for all the chaos that's going to come in the rest of this phase.

It's getting us used to seeing multiple versions of the same character on one screen. That scene when the loki's are fighting in that basement, that could be one of the most important scenes in the MCU in terms of priming us for having movies with two different characters in different scenes of the same. It's priming us for all of that. It's really like, there's nothing,

the thing about Marvel that I love, there's nothing of it that's wasted. They like that village, they're a village that like kills an animal, but uses every part of the animal. This is pre-industrial, but they're like, you know, they use the bone,

they use the marrow, they use the skin. Marvel, there is never a wasted storyline, never a waste of detail. That is why I can't watch Marvel twice in the same day because I have to like sit and watch the next, yeah, yeah. So yeah, shout out to the craters.

Yeah, that is a perfect place, you know, to end. But before we end, I did this last season on our first season of the Midnight Boys when we were doing Falcon and the Winter Soldier. I want to do it on this season where I go behind the curtains a little bit. Show me, Steve. Can you come here? All right. So I want to tell the audience, from the outset, the Midnight Boys, like this season, like this phase of Marvel was born out of chaos. It was born out of like a bunch of people who damn near I've never met in person getting on Zooms and forming a brotherhood.

Like I think in the first season you really see in an audio fashion, me and Van becoming friends in real time, building chemistry in real time. That's why I love that season so much. And I think unfortunately with this season, you know, we felt we, we, there was a lot of things out of our control. There was, there was tragedy that struck. And behind the scenes, we were like, like, how do we? how do we do this? We were friends now. We were like, and the beauty I think of the season is that like I saw Steve step up.

I saw Jomi step up. You heard their voices more. Shout out to someone on like Twitter was like, y'all are going to be like the Wooten clan. And it did feel like that. It felt like hearing Jomi's voice, like more on episodes here, Steve popping up being a good sport, joking around with us. Not getting Musa on an episode, getting open mic eagle. Like that to me is just like, just like Loki, you will never know what's going to happen on the Midnight Boys. Damn near, we never know what's going to happen on the Midnight Boys.

But I want to say thank you not only for like everybody, the Midnight writers for listening to us and like rocking with us and just, you know, being supportive. And I want to spend a special shout out to Van Lathan. Van Lathen is is about to come back stronger than ever. Okay? This show you guys know is not the same without him. But when we come back for season three, now we got Moosa in the mix, I can already tell. Musa, are you feeling, are you coming to the day? Darkside a little bit? You got some takes off in this one. Listen, I always drop my takes off. Mal knows. Mal knows about me. Ryan knows about me. Listen, I get my takes off. And with that, yo, once again, thank you to the Midnight writers for listening. Yo, thank you to Steve and Jomey for stepping up this season. You will hear a lot more from them in season three. We will be talking about what if the Eternals guys? What else are we trying to talk about Spider-Man? Suicide squad. Suicide squad is coming out on like two. weeks, my boy. Pocodot man. Oh, man. There's a bunch more moves on. You have to come back. Would

you, would you mind coming back? Listen, if it will have me, listen, Ryan, I feel sorry for Ryan because he's like, he knows I'm chaotic. I feel like I'm spreading different versions across the, yeah, I'm a different, this is, there's a stadio variant. I'm a lot more reserved. It's my midnight, it's my midnight variant right now. I'm different. I'm different tonight. I'm different. Great vibes. Yeah, this has been a real pleasure. Thank you so much, team. a real joy. Also while I'm here as well, can a shout out to Jomi and Stephen because they do so much amazing and valuable work and I see it online. I see it a lot like the stuff you put out is brilliant. I haven't really said this to either of you, but it's outstanding. I've been obviously

part of this ring organization. Shout out to TD as well, getting us, you know, in the mix and the work he does across podcast is amazing. Yeah, Chris Ryan, Connor and Evans, give them their flowers as well. TD, you're right. Just it's been a pleasure. And Mal, of course, Mal, I've done the the cover podcast with and it was just Mal's mind. I came off the podcast one time talking into her and I said to Ryan, I said, Mel's got like five brains. No, I will be honest, man.

Listening to you and Mal on the podcast, I'm like, God damn, it's like, it's just like, I don't, like, I'm just like, I'm just trying to make the playoffs and y'all like, yo, we in the finals. Like, when are y'all, y'all going to get you? Please. Guys, that was our episode of the Midnight Boys. Shout out to Musa, bringing his talents here.

Oh, man, this is, this is so amazing. I want to send a special shout out to the whole Ring of Vers gang. Thank you so much for Steve and TD and Arjuna for producing the pod. Thank you for Jomi for all the work he does on social. And thank you so much to Mao for holding it down on the House of Mao. And guys, we have so much, so much content coming for you. All right, make sure to stick around for House of Mao. She is going to break down all of the theories, the future, the present of the Marvel universe of Loki.

y'all, you got to stick around for that. It's going to be absolutely incredible. And sadly, guys, I got to tell you, next week, we're going on a little bit of a break, all right? The TVA, the RVA around here has some new management, has a new variant in charge. So we got to see what's going to happen. But we will be back after that, okay? We're going to be talking about Suicide Squad, like we said. We're going to be talking about Eternals, Spider-Man, what if, everything.

So make sure you stay plugged in. Follow us on at the Ringiverse on all the socials, and we will see y'all very, there is. I have to end us with a little haiku. Guys, on this season of the Midnight Boys, there was sun, there was rain. And sadly, there was also pain. But with my man, Lusa in the mix,

we are all ripe with some galaxy brains. I just occurs to me like, what if Loki had told Sylvia that he loved her? Is he going to regret, is he going to regret not telling her that he loved her? Do you think that he still feels that way? Do you think that he honestly feels that way? Or does he not know what I think Stephen when he says,

when he says, I just want you to be okay? Is that him like being unable to say how he really feels? Because he doesn't, he wants more than that. I don't think he's ever told anybody he loves. Right, so I'm saying if he said, like, if he said, Because does she feel it, feel it? Bear in mind when they hold each other's hands,

it's a Nexus event that's like really powerful. What if he'd actually declared some actual love? And I'm not saying that would have changed everything, but will he regret, I want to know if he regrets in season two not saying it? I would have thought that it's probably like his bit of an emotional safeguard that he said that. I want you to be okay rather than I love you.

Because if he couldn't handle, he was about to get killed. Of course, Stephen. By one of he'll regret it, I agree with all that, but I wonder if he'll regret not saying it when he had the chance to say it. Guys, guys, guys. My man Loki, okay? He's a player.

All right. We saw in the other episode, you know, he was running around Asgard, okay? Just getting it in. I don't know if he knows how to say how to love. You know what I'm saying? How to love. That I got a girl trying to steal my heart. I just don't know if he knows how to.

Yeah, he's not a guy who's really in touch with. his feelings like that in terms of conveying. Well, I know we're in like injury time here, but I want to say this as well. Do you notice how Loki became bisexual the moment like the Netflix ragrock had a bisexual loki? You've mentioned this before that that Loki, yeah. See how Loki just threw that a bit bisexuality and was like,

oh yeah, I'm yeah, I've dated men as well. And I'm like, hang on him. We haven't seen. Are we going to see Loki be bisexual at any point? Musa. I got killed for saying that I think honestly that the real love story of this story is between Loki and Mobius. I actually think that they would be.

Thank you. Thank you. A better couple. Season two. Season two, baby. They got to reintroduce each other. Jet ski date. Jet ski date. Another,

that's a salad date. You know what I'm saying? You feel me? They have the chemistry. But yeah, but they don't think their love is possible. Do you know why? Because whenever they start suggesting each other,

people laugh. They're like, that will never work. So it's actually, it's the fan base and the timeline constraining them because they can't, Oh, that will never work. No, honestly, but Mobius, Mobius and Loki, I ship that. Because here's my thing. With Mobius, that's a mature relationship.

That's a fine wine. You know what I'm saying? Like, Loki is a little immature, and he needs to get him like a nice, like, 40-year-old Mobius who's just like, come here, baby, sit on my lap, everything will be okay. Loki's not ready. Loki's not ready for that. Loki, Mobius wants someone to come home to and Loki wants someone to go out with. Oh.

It's the OKCupid. That's a bar. That's a bar. It's a lot of dichotomy. Mobius will lock him down, though. Mobius will settle him down. He's practical. It doesn't know.

It's the OKCupy dichotomy. It doesn't work. No, but he's changing. He's changing. He wants love. He wants something that's more real. He does, Stephen, but he's too far from it. He's too far from it.

All right, there's our post-credit scene. We do have to go. The one thing I will say, do you have to go before I get it. My last galaxy brain thing, people are craving things that they've suppressed in their previous lives. Like the TVA is not powerful enough to keep that many people that suspended from their autonomous reality. so, but he's craving the jet skis because there's a part of him that's still seeking jet skis

from a previous life. The scene when the guy was like, he doesn't know what, was it, was it an apple or a fruit, he didn't know what that was. Oh, he didn't know what a fish was? A fish, you didn't, yeah, that guy probably is a fisherman in a previous life, and he's seeking something. I wonder if those little Easter eggs are them seeking something, like, anchoring them to, like, their previous selves.

With the pen with Rivona as well. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Thank you. Exactly. I wouldn't be a good host, though, Moussa, if I had an ask you really quick before we go.

What are you, what's your thing that you're searching for? What's variant Musa searching for from a previous life? Do you know what? I have everything I want. Like, I sealed off my last, I sealed off my timelines. I saw what happened at the Euros, Musa. You don't have everything. No.

No. No. Why do you like that? Charles. He had just forgot. He had just forgot. No, I'm laughing. No, Charles, I sent a text message that night saying,

this is the perfect result for England. This is the perfect result. That is how I feel about this. I'm very, the reason is the perfect result is because England got far enough that the heroism of the players was clear, but not far enough that the heroism could easily be folded into a nationalism. They got far enough in terms of success to expose the underlying racism of a lot of people that said that they loved them.

So actually now it's fully. exposed to what England are ready for now. If England succeeded the next tournament, they cannot be co-opted by the right because everyone knows what the right really is. So if England win next, they win the World Cup next time of the Euros. That's the galaxy brain. I said, this is the perfect result. Let's clap it up. Damn. You are just, you are the fuck, bro. He's seen every time. God. He's seen it all. Listen. You can't surprise him. You can't catch him off going. O'Krang, the conqueror. That's me.

I crank, you heard it first. God. That's who I am on this podcast.