The Ringer-Verse - Luke vs. Obi-Wan Midnight Court, J.J. Abrams, and the Case for 'Superman & Lois' | The Midnight Boys

Episode Date: May 28, 2021

Van and Charles are on a 'Star Wars'-themed episode where they discuss the latest news of J.J. Abrams talking about the troubles of the latest 'Star Wars' trilogy (03:25). They then head to Midnight Court to decide who is the better Jedi, Luke Skywalker or Obi-Wan Kenobi (17:57). All before Van makes the case to Charles about why he should watch 'Superman & Lois' (56:44). Hosts: Van Lathan and Charles Holmes Guest: Ben Lindbergh Producer: Steve Ahlman Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal and TD St. Matthew-Daniel Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. Welcome into the ringer verse. It is I, Van Lathen, the host of Higher Learning with Van Lathen and Rachel Lindsay and of course Charles Holmes, the host of the Ringer music show. But together, we are known as the Midnight Boys. Now look, of course, you're listening to the Ringerverse, which is the Ringer's Nexus podcast Fee for all things, fandom. We are eagerly awaiting the upcoming Loki show. We are.

We're very excited about it. I know Charles you're into it. I know you're fiend in for some Loki. Yeah, yeah, I fiend it. I would say that. You know what I'm saying? Inject that MCU into my veins, Fagie. Yeah, I'm excited.

You're excited about the location show. I know you are. I know you are. But while we're waiting for that, we have something special today. Okay. We're going to take a look at some nerd news. And here's the thing. The nerd news that we got this week is leading directly to what I think is going to be

one of the most contentious iterations of midnight court. It might break up the midnight boys. It might break up the midnight boys. And we're not careful. This could be a cap. an Iron Man type of situation. You tore the Avengers apart. Wait, who's Cap and who's Iron Man real quick?

That's a good one. I think you're Iron Man. I think you're Tony. I think I'm probably Iron Man. Yeah. I think I'm probably Iron Man. You know what I'm saying? Because, you know, I feel like you got the one-liners down.

You kind of got that whole vibe, you know, at the party. I'm older. You know what I mean? You know, I'm the brains of the operation. The whole nine. Let's not go that part. Some people would say that I'm the heart in the. soul of the ringer verse, you know what I'm saying?

There you go. Keeping us on the right track. Yeah, cool. Born leader. You know what I mean? That's you, that's you, tactician. But you know what I'm saying? If my boy comes, you know, Bucky, I'm putting the hands on van.

You know what I'm saying? We do it like in some more, bap, bap, bough. Throwing everything away for your friend. Just lose all objectivity for your friend. That's definitely you. No, but the nerd news got us into a conversation about who is the Greater Jedi between Luke Skywalker

and Obey Lan Canobey. Wow. We are going to discuss that. We're taking that to Midnight Court. I am not going to even reveal to you right now who's on what side of this, but we'll talk about that when we get to Midnight Corp. And I'm also going to show love to

my favorite superhero show right now. That's currently in new episodes and try to convince Charles that he needs to get on the Superman and Lois Train, one of the best superhero shows I've ever seen. It's really amazing. The cap on this app, right?

How can it be cap if it's my opinion? How can it be cap? It's my opinion. Now, let's get into Neh News. The article that we got to talking about here is Adam Chitwood of Collider did something with J.J. Abrams. He talked to J.J. Abrams.

And J.J. Abrams basically admitted that the newest Star Wars trilogy didn't have a plan. He says here that things would have gone a lot smoother. Obviously, you guys know, Force Awakens comes out. Everybody is very excited, right? And then from there, I've never seen anything more divided than the way the Star Wars fanship reacted

to the last two iterations of that, which is, of course, the last Jedi and Rise of Skywalker. By the end, it was a total shit show. It was just a complete shit show. And you have JJ Abrams here, one of the most powerful men in Hollywood, who really was the driving creative force behind these three movies. Well, not so much too,

but the trilogy as a whole saying that there was no plan. Charles, how do you react to this? What did you think when you read this? At first, I think I had the same reaction as everyone, which is like, well, duh, it would have gone smoother if y'all had a plan, if y'all knew what you were doing. But then I took a step back. And, like, I realize the best Star Wars, which is the original trilogy, George Lucas did not have a plan for this.

And that's what shows you, like, the whole, like, how much George Lucas has kind of, like, rewritten history to make it seem like Star Wars was this, like, very, very planned out thing. Like, we even see it in the first movie. Like, no one knew that that Vader was going to be Luke's son. He didn't know that in a new hope. That's already been proven. And then if we look at the Phantom Menace, attack of the clones, all of that, that had a plan.

And that was probably the worst trilogy out of all of them. So I kind of give JJ a little bit of slack because I'm like, the best Star Wars generally don't have a plan if we're being completely honest. I don't think that's true. I don't think that's true. Wait, so you think George Lucas had the first original trilogy all planned out? I think he had the arc.

And I think here they didn't have the arc, right? I think, and number one, it was probably easier to have a plan for the first Star Wars, for the first Star Wars movies because it was just basically a hero's journey. You're taking Luke and you're going to start Luke where Luke is a wide-eyed farm boy looking at the cosmos from Tatouille. And you're going to take him to at the end, getting over some big huge deal and freeing something, figuring something out, taking down the empire. So what you have to do along the way is connect the dots.

You know what I mean? You have to give him a big bad, who is Vader. You have to connect him to that big bad. Okay, now he's his son. And then you do all of these different things. I think that's kind of the thematic plan that you're talking about. When I hear J.J. Abrams saying what he's saying right now, I think about things about this trilogy that were glaring,

the fact that we didn't know who Ray was. I wonder if they had a plan for Ray. if they knew who Ray was going to be, right? If they knew, because it started off, we didn't know who she was, she was having flashbacks to all of this stuff. Then in Last Jedi, she was nobody, she was a scrapper, and then by the end she's Palpatine's granddaughter. So it's like having a plan specifically for your protagonist,

like having a theme that you follow up. What was the plan for Finn? What was supposed to happen to Finn? What was Finn going to become? Who is Po? Like, it seemed like they were tinkering with things. Like, they tinkering. with the fend po thing. They tinker with

all kinds of stuff and they just weren't, they just didn't, they didn't have enough behind it to go do anything, to really say anything. And so I would say that, there was no, I don't think George Lucas had it mapped out A to Z for the first trilogy, but I think

he knew where we wanted to end. And I don't think J.J. Abrams, I think they were flying by the seat of their plans. Yeah, I mean, like I said, I think that they should have planned out the J.J. trilogy. I still to my guns that I think George Lucas is a genius, but a lot of the, what we know about, like, what Star Wars is, is a lot of him rewriting history. Like, yeah, I knew all along that Luke and

Leah were brother and sister. I'm like, dude, no, you do not. But the one thing I will say is that, like, my problem with the trilogy similar to you is that they didn't know who, like, what they wanted to do with these characters. Like, Finn, to this day, I won't forgive J.J. Abrams for making all black people, really like, damn, Finn's going to be like a Jedi. It's going to be cool. Then he's like, psych. And then for the next, like, two films, which are you just, like, just like, what is Finn doing out here? The Finn was a huge Enforce Awakens that he became dead weight. Dead weight.

Like, and that's not even, I love Boyega. That's nothing against Boyega. That's all the writers. Like, I was just like, even Poe, I would say, Poe had nothing to do in those movies. Like, absolutely nothing. So I do think that like a plan, honestly would have been very, very good.

But I also do think that like even if there was a plan, if we're being honest, I think the thing that tanked this trilogy more than anything, thing is that we're now at a place where the fans have such an outsized, how do I put this, like influence on like the trilogy in real time. So you know if people are like pissed, if they're happy. And I think honestly, like the creators let us get into their head too much. I'm like, if you had a plan, just tell your story. We're either going to love it or hate it. Don't do this thing. We're like, all right, we're greenlining this film. Actually, we're taking the

directors off of it. Now we're switching directors. Now bring back JJ. I'm like, like, yo, run your race. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, don't try to play to the crowd. Like, that's the one thing I don't like. I, so here's the thing. And it's really what happens when you start fucking with people's childhoods. You know, it is.

And it's tough. And Marvel didn't have to go through this with the MCU because a lot of these characters weren't, they weren't endearing to us, that we weren't connected to them emotionally as kids. We liked them. But, you know, this is different. what I thought they were going to do is essentially what they didn't do. So this is what I thought the plan was.

I thought the plan was to give the Skywalker story its oxygen in the main trilogies, right? Which is probably going to have to be a little bit less exciting fair for people. They look back on the relationship that these characters had in the past, and you really just almost want to see placeholders for them. You want to see Luke and Ray. You want to see Solo and Po. You know, you want to kind of see these other people kind of just play out this specific way. I guess that makes Finn Leia.

That's fine to do that that way. I thought the Rogue Ones and the Solos and the other movies like this were going to fill in some more exciting chance-taking Star Wars content. That's why the hyper-violent version of Rogue One were Vader. is ripping people apart and doing all of that, the stuff that the Disney execs didn't want out. That's why it was so intriguing to me, because I thought that that's what we were doing. I thought that Star Wars was going to be a big enough universe

where there would be places that they could take chances, even if they didn't feel like they could take chances, with the actual mainstay, big, but huge, huge trilogy, the core stories, even if they felt like they had to be a little bit more predictable there. I don't just know how much, you can really reinvent the will with those stories because they have to be so broad to bring in the lunchbox crowd, you know? I don't know how much you can do there. But I mean, would you say

that like when I talk about people playing the race, like, we didn't know what we wanted in the Mandalorian until they gave it to us. And then we're like, oh my gosh, like this is like, this is what we wanted. And my whole thing is, is like sometimes if you have somebody like a, like a Faloni, like quarterbacking everything, he's like, yo, I'm going to do so much work with Asoka over the years that finally when Rosario Dosson plays her, we're like, oh my, like, what is going on? It blows our mind. This is what we've been waiting for. And sometimes I think that with the trilogies at least, it's like they tried to fill in too much of the blanks. And I don't know about you, like what I envision happening to like

a Han Solo or a Luke or a Leia after those films, they were never going to live up to it with that trilogy. Like in my like kid mind, like the adventures were never going to be as good as they were. It was impossible. That's why I think like having the Mandalorian, getting a Boba Fep TV show, you get to do more with these characters. And like, I honestly think it was probably a mistake for them to like bring back to original people. Maybe. Because it just can never live up to all of the stories, all the books, all the comics we read. You know what I mean? Yeah. So, but just remember like who Like represents, Asoka is a good,

a good sort of representation of what it is and I'm talking about, right? So think about who Asoka is. Like, you know her, I know her, right? When I'm watching The Mandalorian with Kalika, she pops up on screen,

Kalika's seen all the movies, she goes, who is that? Right? And so, but think about it. But then she gets to, she didn't watch any of the cartoons with me, she hasn't read any of the books, none of that, she goes,

who's that? But in order for her to know Star Wars and come to the movies with me and enjoy it, which she does, she watched all of the movies. That includes Rogue One and Solo and all of that stuff. She watched all of the movies, and she was watching The Mandalorian with me.

So the Star Wars movies, the big, huge movies are for people like her. Yeah. Who think they know about Star Wars, who think they know about who are following the one singular arc of the Skywalker family, right? And then these other shows can actually grow the audience to understand more of the connect,

tissue that we understand. But I don't think that JJ and the guys at the top understood that. I think the moment you let Ryan Johnson direct a Star Wars movie, you're going to get something inventive. That's his calling card as a filmmaker. And people that are following the skywalk or saga, they do not want inventive. That's not what they want. They don't want to have the paradigm shifted or the embellal push. That's not what they want. But that's what, but that's what My thing that makes it unfair to like Orion or everybody else is I think, you know, a lot of times Star Wars fans will say we want something new. We want something inventive. They get something new inventive. Like, no, we want the old thing. And then they get it. They're like, that's too much like the old thing. Like, I remember when Force Awakens came out. People were happy with it. But a lot of people were like the complaints are like, this is just a new hope. Beat for beat. So then you get Ryan Johnson. Like, damn, like people are complaining that force awakens is too much like a new hope. So he creates something that shifts the paradigm a little bit. And it was like, no, go back to it. And by the time. we get the rise of Skywalker, JJ recycles another movie,

and then now we're all mad again. So sometimes I think, like, fans truly, like, sometimes they get into the director and writer's heads, and it just, that's probably why the Mandalorian is a lot better. Well, look,

the Mandalorian also is just, it's a very simple sort of formula to a show. The Mandalorian just works. I love the Mandalorian. Would you put the Mandalorian above Rogue One? Oh, damn, good question. I mean, you compare the movie to a television show,

not fair. But if I had to choose one, I probably would put the mandolore in above Rogue One. Roe 1 was fantastic to me, but I probably would put the mandolarian above it, you know? But yeah, yeah. I like the tone of Rogue 1. Jesus Christ, Vader is the balls at the end of Rogue 1 boy. Wait, would you greenlighted at Darth Vader show? Yeah. If it was like Rogue 1, if he was like going crazy? If it was like Rogue 1 and we just saw, because, you know, Vader was back.

but because we know Anakin, and that's why I like the Vader comic book so much. Like, Vader was bad, but because we know Anakin, we almost, Vader is almost like an evil placeholder in the series. We never get to,

you have to watch, you have to consume a lot of Star Wars to really get to know the character. And so I don't think that people who haven't read the books and seen other shows, know Vader as well as we know Vader. And I would like them to know.

Like a Vader, Dr. Afra, you know, kind of like the comic books that they've been doing that Marvel, something in that vein a little bit. Yeah, yeah. Would that be dope? Like, I would like Vader as like an anti-hero a little bit?

You know what I'm saying? Like, he's still evil, but he'll go to a planet and like free some slaves. Like he's like... But he's never going to do that. He's a fucking, no, he's not going to do that. You don't think he'll, he's not going to see someone like his mom on a planet and be like, fuck. And then just like, at the... I mean, maybe, maybe.

Maybe. Maybe there. He's like, oh. I will release you. That is a tear. That's as bad as my fucking lightsaber. That's the best I can do, Doc. My uncle does a great Vayner used to scare the shit out of me as a kid. Why do people, why do your uncles fuck with you and scar you and think that is funny?

I used to be like, wake up, Van, and I would wake up. Just not knowing that he's running my therapy bills up now. All right. And it's time for midnight court. And we are going to talk extensively about the Star Wars universe. If you haven't watched Star Wars, there are going to be some spoilers. If you haven't watched Star Wars, I just cannot imagine why you would be listening to this podcast. Well, I'll tell you one thing.

We are so spoiler-free-centric around here that we want to make sure that you guys, who are missing out on a damn near 40, 50-year-old epic that you don't miss anything, okay? So we're telling you right now. If you haven't caught up on shit since 1977, go watch all of the movies. We'll see you next year. Go watch all of the TV shows and we'll see you next year. And you can listen to this podcast then, but we're going to talk extensively about Star Wars starting now.

All right, let's get into Midnight Court. Let's get into Midnight Court. Jomi, give us an intro. This week on Midnight Court, in the Midnight Boys group chat, Charles Holmes claimed that Luke Skywalker was the best Jedi to ever live, while Van claims that Obi-Wan is, and that Luke Skywalker is, quote, a bitch.

All right, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for coming. We will now be hearing opening arguments from Mr. Lathen and Mr. Holmes. Mr. Holmes, you have the floor. Thank you so much, Your Honor. Members of the jury, I thank you for your time. today, we are here to discuss something bigger than just two men. They are both great in their own ways. But what we're really here to debate is the central idea of what greatness is

and whether or not a man who stands by while his workplace is corrupted in the foundation from the center at its core if that man can truly be called the greatest Jedi alive. Now, Mr. Lathen will likely call my client a bitch and regale you with some surface-level anecdotes. But come on, we all know that this argument isn't about that. The story of Obi-Wan is one of rigidity and how one man blinds. finally follows an institution, much like in our own world. That can lead to genocide. Is that what Mr. Lathen is defending?

I hope not. I truly, truly, truly hope not. See, Luke Skywalker is among the greatest Jedi. Because he does what it took Obi-Wan Kenobi far too long to do. Luke Skywalker questions. He questions authority. He questions the Jedi. Damn, Luke even questions his own legend.

And isn't that what we want from our heroes? I'm not saying to defund the Jedi. I love the Jedi. I'm just saying that I want to follow a man that realizes the root of his problems before he raises a genocidal maniac that kills billions across the galaxy. Let us see. Today, you will learn about some of Luke Skywalker's greatest feats. But more importantly, people, you will learn about the resolve of the man who dedicated his entire life to fixing the problems of two father figures that just couldn't work it out. I see the floor. Thank you so much, people. Mr. Lathen, you now have the floor. Thank you. Your Honor. Thank you to the members of the jury. Thank you to opposing counsel.

The story of Obi-Wan Kenobi is a story about moments. And if we're being honest, greatness is measured in moments. A lot of people think that greatness is measured in consistency over a long period of time. But what does consistency matter if you never do anything great? If you never do anything above and beyond who you are or what you thought you could do, I'd argue that when we look at the life of Obi-Wan Kenobi, we look at a Jedi whose greatness is measured up against some of the most insurmountable odds ever faced by a Jedi. As a Padawan, you put him up against a seemingly unstoppable Sith apprentice who had just killed his master.

Obi-Wan rises to the occasion. as a man himself on the planet of Mustafa faced with a newly minted sent apprentice by the name of Darth Vader one whose met a chloroic count something that should have never been invented was through the roof a master of all masters

one of the strongest ever will be won't rise to the occasion even in preserving the life of the man Charles Holmes thinks is greater than him, Obi-Wan rises to the occasion. I say that greatness is measured in moments, but it's not just measured in moments. It's measured in connection. Connection to people.

What are you willing to do for people when your number is called? When we talk about greatness in sports, We talk about how guys put it on the line. We talk about the flu game. We talk about the bloody sock and Kurt Schilling. No politics, just baseball. We're not talking about his likes on Instagram right now. We're talking about just baseball.

I'd argue that whenever Obi-Wan has been called upon, whenever he has been asked to show up for his friends, to show up for the Republic, to show up for the resistance, Obi-Wan has never, ever hesitated to answer the call. Can we say the same thing about Luke Skywalker? We'll see.

We'll see throughout the rest of this. Let's see. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable Internet means everything for your business. and even this podcast. That's why I trust Spectrum business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business.

So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows Winter is the MVP and make it a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer. unless you hit the beach or go camping, then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips.

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of Nass energy, high-performance energy for burning the midnight oil in the garage and pedal to the metal human horsepower for the streets. Go ahead, crack open a can of Noss energy and get after it. Mr. Holmes, you will now be presenting evidence to the court. Yes.

For my first piece of evidence, I would like to reference what Obi-Wan Kenobi at Mr. Anakin as he turned. to Darth Vader. Can we, can we play that, please? I have failed you, Anakin. I have failed you. Ooh, rough. Now, Mr. Lathen said that Obi-Wan Kenobi is such a good friend.

If this is true court, then why is there a trail of people that Obi-Wan Kenobi just left out there to dry? Now, I don't know if y'all know about a great, Jedi by the name of Asoka, but we all know what Obi-Wan Kenobi did when Asoka needed him. Now, I would argue that we wouldn't even be here today debating this if Obi-Wan-Kinobi was not only a good brother, but a good father figure. See, the story of Anakin is the story of a man who was questioning how he was raised, was questioning the people that raised him.

And because Obi-Wan Kenobi was so rigid, because he believed in the Jedi Order so much, he couldn't do what was arguably his most important job, be a good brother and be a good father figure to Anakin. Okay? I would argue that we wouldn't have Darth Vader, we wouldn't have the empire. Hey, we wouldn't even have Kylo Ren.

if Obi-Wan Kenobi just was willing to trust Anakin and talk to Anakin. My issue with Obi-Wan, it's not that he's not great. He's one of the greatest Jedi, but not greater than Luke. Definitely not greater than Anakin. He constantly lambasted Anakin for things he himself was guilty of doing. And he continually held information from Luke that would have been beneficial to him. I don't know about you, but I would hope that my father figures would stop me from kissing a woman that I didn't know what was my...

sister, come on now. That's a party foul. I would hope that my father figure would tell me that the greatest, one of the greatest Jedi who turned to the Sith was my father so I could keep my hand. That's what a father figure does. And that's what Obi-Wan Kenobi failed to do. And when we defend Luke Skywalker and call him one of the greatest Jedi of all time, we're talking about how Luke can go toe to toe with Cities Invader after only a couple of years of training? Are you telling me a man that was literally on a desert planet and in the course of a couple weeks

destroys the Death Star with minimal force training? When we're talking about greatness in moments, is that not one of the greatest moments of all time? My man Luke Skywalker got his hand cut off. Had no more teachers came back with the all-black fit and literally saved not only a galaxy but his father. Can we please play one of my last bits of evidence? Luke seeing the good in Darth Vader.

I've accepted the truth that you were once Anakin Skywalker, my father. That name no longer has any meaning for me. It is the name of your true self. you've only forgotten. I know there is good in you. The emperor hasn't driven it from you fully. And court, jury, today, what I'm truly arguing

is that if greatness is measured in moments, as Mr. Lathen has said, one of the greatest moments in Star Wars history in the galaxy isn't measured by midi-chlorian counts, isn't measured by fighting styles, it isn't measured that Luke of all of the great things that Luke done, no, no, no, no, no, no, is measured by the fact that Luke

understands the force. He does what Obi-Wan Kenobi, it took him years and years to do. He saw good in Darth Vader. And instead of fighting him on Mustafa, instead of not listening to him, Luke saw good in the man that cut off his arm, who abandoned his family. And in the process, fulfilled a prophecy and showed us that it's not always about how great you are in the battlefield. Sometimes it's the greatness in your heart. And that's something you can't take away from Luke. I rest my case.

Will you allow me to redirect right there? I'll allow a brief redirect, yes. A brief redirect. So I just want to point out a couple of things. Okay. All of the things that counsel is saying that Luke Skywalker was able to do he had to be alive to do them. And he wouldn't be alive

if Obi-Wan Kenobi didn't live in Tatui and watch over his life since he was a baby. All of the greatness of Skywalker is due to the sacrifice who the fuck wants to live on Tatoui.

Obi-Wan Kenobi could have retired someplace where there was at least a fucking waterfall. But no, he lived in the Fresno, in the Modesto, the Palmdale of the galaxy so that he could watch over Luke Skywalker and make sure he was alive

when you're talking about greatness and dedication to a cause, which brings me... Whoa, I would like to redirect his redirect. Hold on, no, no, no, no, no, no. You yielded the floor. He asked me a question. Order? No, you didn't ask anything. No, no, no, no. All right, fine, fine, fine, fine, fine. Okay, so which brings me

to my piece of evidence, Exhibit A, Steve, will you please roll the tape? What the fuck? What the fuck? Fuck? What the fuck? So what you guys just heard was Ray walking up to Luke Skywalker,

handing him his lightsaber, and asking him to continue into the fight, to save the galaxy, to continue in the fight that his sister, his sister, stuck around and fought. And what you saw was Luke Skywalker, take said lightsaber,

toss it over his bum-ass shoulder, into the water. Now, we're talking about a situation when you say that Luke Skywalker saved the galaxy, here's the thing. He didn't. The job wasn't done yet. There was still more.

This is a lifelong, dedication to the fight against the tyrannical oppression of the empire and any iteration of it that comes after. This is not something that can be ended in one battle. You take a lifelong pledge as a Jedi to uphold these things. And after Luke Skywalker, who I could argue didn't save his father, who I could argue, who I could argue, Let his father save himself. Because remember, it was Vader who picked up Palpatine. It was Vader.

Anakin in that scene, Anakin lived his prophecy. That was Anakin's victory. What he was prophesized to do, Anakin Skywalker came back out of Darth Vader, and he dispatched of Palpatine. Luke was there. Now, when the galaxy, when it's back up, this is years that the First Order has built up power.

This is after the First Order has destroyed five or six Republic planets. They've killed billions, billions. People are risking their lives to get information to get to Luke Skywalker. What does Luke say? No. When that same thing happened to Obi-Wan Canobi.

Help me, Obi-Wan, Canobi. You're my only hope. I know you've still been serving this entire time, Obi-Wan. I know you never stopped serving because you're on this planet looking after Luke Skywalker. I know you've never stopped serving, but we need you again. What does Obi-Wan do? Jumped right into the fray.

Whenever you call his number, he's there. Sure. It must be. When he stepped off of his craft and did the Superman pose, did it look like he had just got finished fucking Patman? Yes. Would you have been mad if you were Anakin? Yeah.

It's like Anakin looks up and Obi-Wan standing there and Anakin says, oh, what, you fucking Obi-Wan now? So of course you're going to be upset. But what does Obi-Wan do? He tries to talk to him. I would submit to you guys that a lot of the problems in the galaxy emanate from the Skywalker family. The Skywalker family is risk. responsible for a lot of the carnage,

the Skywalker family is supposed to fix. If we look at Skywalker's, it's a mixed bag. It's Anakin. It's Luke who sold out his friends or hesitated in helping them. And then it's Kylo Rinn, who's a full-on emo killer. Obi-Wan is there. Clean up the messes and keep things going. when the emotional and irrational Skywalker family

fail to meet the moment. And God damn it, and God damn it, it's happened the whole time and it's going to keep on happening. Ray took the adopted name of a Skywalker and she flirted with the dark side. Even being adopted into the Skywalker family, you flirt with the dark side.

Your Honor, may I redirect? Yes, you may briefly. Sure. I would argue that Mr. Lathen is saying, that Obi-Wan has to clean up the mess. Well, guess what, guys? When you're the person that spills my milk, of course you should clean up your own mess.

If we look at Obi-Wan Kenobi, his entire history is of someone who can't finish the job. If we're looking at how many people across the galaxy Darthamal killed, well, I put a lot of that on Obi-Wan-Kin-Kin-O-B-Wy. head for being ineffectual. When we're talking about Darth Vader, whose responsibility was it to raise Anakin? Anakin the whole time is asking for his father figure's help. And at each moment, Obi-Wan Kenobi sides with the Jedi Order, sides with the Republic. He never sides for the one person that he promised his mentor,

Quigonjin, he would look after. But you know what? Let's not take my word for it, because I know, I know I'm a controversial figure. Why don't we go to a little deposition from one of the smartest Star Wars scholars that I know?

Court, can you please play the tape? Can you please state your name and occupation for the record? My name is Ben Lindberg. I am a certified Star Wars expert for the ringer.com. May I ask you, Mr. Lindberg? How would you rate your Star Wars expertise? Well, to quote Obi-Wan in The Phantom Menace, the reading is off the shot.

Thank you for calling me to the stand. I've been studying most of my life for this. My first question for you is how impressive is it that a Jedi like Luke only had a year so of proper training and went head-to-head with Darth Vader and Sidious? So this is the key to Luke's case, right? We have seen Obi-Wan at the peak of his powers, but a lot of Luke's highlight. are no longer canon because Disney did Luke dirty. Not only did they wipe away his wife, RIP, Mara Jade,

but they erased the record of him saving the galaxy multiple times. So in the current canon, at least on screen, we haven't really seen Luke in his prime, aside from the glimpse we got in the Mandalorian. So you have to extrapolate from the pace of his improvement in the original trilogy. And he goes from Farm Boy, who hasn't heard of the force, to taking down the empire and relaunching,

the Jedi Order in about four years and only a few weeks of that time is spent in hands-on training with certified instructors. Contrast that with Obi-Wan, who starts training at an early age. He gets the extended deluxe curriculum as a youngling and a paduan. But in pretty short order, he blows up the test star. He saves the alliance. He outdules Darth Vader. He resists Sidious. He turns Anakin back to the light side, which Obi-Wan fails to do, I might ask. he reforms the Jedi order by himself. Also, he saves Grogu. He helps train Ray, who learns even faster than he did, manages to defeat Sidious for good.

And just listen to Obi-Wan's words. In rebels, Obi-Wan tells Darth Maul that Luke is the chosen one. And when Leia says, help me, Obi-Wan, Kenobi, you're my only hope. Wrong. Luke is. And Obi-Wan says it himself, that boy is our last hope. So Obi-Wan wasn't great enough to prevent Palpatine from taking over or bring him down after he did, but Luke was.

Could you describe some of Master Kenobi's weaknesses and character flaws for the court? I can. So look, I like Obi-Wan. He is a better-looking and cooler character than Luke, but he has issues. We know he is willing to bend the facts and then spin them as true from a certain point of view. And this is part of a pattern with him. In season four of the Clone Wars, he fakes his own death. He doesn't tell Anakin, which contributes.

to the lack of trust between the two. On Mustafa, Bader says, I see through the lies of the Jedi. And Obi-Wan is sometimes the one telling those lies. Really, he had one job, training the chosen one, and he screws it up royally. He has trouble communicating and putting himself in other people's places.

He constantly belittles Anakin. He scolds him about not losing his lightsaber, even though he lost multiple lightsabers himself. He is not understanding of Anakin's impetuousness, even though he was also reckless when he was young, he's super judgmental of Anakin and Padme, even though he had his own affair with Satine, which is not the first time he caught feelings for someone.

He knows Anakin's loyalties are torn. He knows he's buddy, buddy with Palpatine, and he doesn't do much to help him handle his problems or talk them through. As he says, My Allegiance is to the Republic, to democracy. What about your friends? He doesn't even defend Asoka at her trial. he's so caught up in being the model Jedi and abiding by the code and upholding the idea that the

council can do no wrong that he doesn't see any of the fundamental flaws that Anakin and Asoka can see. And then last, but certainly not least, taking in everything you know about Star Wars lore, who would you say is the greater Jedi? Luke Skywalker or Obi-Wan Kenobi? I can't believe I'm backing up a Charles take, which can be controversial. But it's Luke in a landslide. You are on the right side of Star Wars history here. I rest my case.

Thank you so much, Mr. Lindbergh, for taking the time to speak with the court. Am I allowed to redirect? Yes, you are, Mr. Lathen. First of all, anything that isn't canon should be stricken from the record. I will strike only the non-canon things from the record. I read all the books. Shout out Marj, Jedi, twins, all of that stuff.

I would challenge people that just listen to that to understand what was said. In order to dis Obi-Wan, you have to make the faults of the Skywalker family his failing. You have to make

the faults of you have to make things that Luke did and things that Anakin did Obi-Wan's fault. Consider that. Consider that. Consider that. the blank slate that you have to give to the Skywalker's in order to besmirch the name of

Obi-Wan Kenobi. If you really watch and get into these Star Wars movies and stories, you see a fundamental flaw with the Skywalker family. And we know this to be true. They are prone to being tempted by the dark side. What was it mentioned and what was just happened? what was just articulated was the fact that Luke himself started to train Jedi was that Luke himself tried to on his own train a Jedi order and when he attempted to train

that Jedi order what happened he flirted with killing his own nephew killing his sister's son the boy saw it, flipped out, killed everybody. So we're going to talk right there about the fact that Obi-Wan couldn't stop Anakin from being obsessed with cheating death and obsessed with... When Obi-Wan was talking to Anakin about the Jedi Way and the Jedi Code, it was to stop Anakin from flirting with feeling and from flirting with obsession and being corrupted by the dark side. Only you can't do that with a Skywalker.

They always flirt with the dark side. Luke did it. Anakin did it. Luke was about to kill his boy, the boy who was also a Skywalker, killed everybody, all those deaths on Luke's hands. How could you expect Obi-Wan to do something

that Luke couldn't even do? Luke is supposed to be so amazing. but could he stop Kylo Rin who he got way younger way younger than Obi-Wan got got Anakin Kylo Rinn was a little

boy born into it could he stop him from doing it? No, because they Skywalkers, they all fucked up and by the way, the last thing I'll say on redirect if you really think about it everything that your expert just talked to didn't speak to greatness, it spoke to talent. Is there any, is there any, any argument at all that Luke Skywalker is a more talented Jedi than Obi-Wan Kenobi?

No, there isn't. There's no argument. Yeah, it takes, of course he's more talented. When you're talking about, he did all of these things in four years, he did all of this stuff in this time, yeah, he's more talented. He's got, he's got more natural ability, sure. but I'm talking about sacrifices made for the greater good. Greatness.

Greatness. Not who's the best Jedi. Now who's the most powerful Jedi? Who's the greatest Jedi? We're wilding now. We're while and now. You're talking about who he traded. Luke trade.

Look, we're wilding. All right. Is it my time from, is my time from my evidence or where are we going now? Yes, it is. Yes. Your evidence. This whole thing has been your evidence.

That was the redirect. You can present yours if you have yet to. I just want to talk about moments here. I want to talk about moments of Obi-1. Okay? We're talking about Obi-1. Obi-1, who is supposedly less talented in these guys. Mustafa Duel goes head up against Anakin.

We're talking about how powerful Anakin Skywalker is. That's a W. It's a W for Obi-Wan Kenobi. Okay? I got the high ground. All right? Don't try it. I'm going to cut your fucking legs off, kid.

you're too emo. It's your problem. We need to be Jedi as you're acting like a member of BTS. I'm going to cut your legs off. All right. Your emo. I don't like you. All right?

Stick to the code so that people don't get hurt. He didn't do it. It became a robot. That's what happens when you fuck with Obi-Wan. You become a fucking robot, okay? Duel of the Fates. Young, I still got the braid. I'm still braided up like fucking ludicrous out here.

I watch as this guy kills my master. And what do I do? Am I scared? No, man. I'm in front of the laser portal door thing, blast shield. I am waiting to get a piece of you, punk. Cut you in half. All right? Like the Spice Girl said, two become one.

Nah, this is one become two. Get down. I'm out of here. I'm Obi-Wan Kenobi. I sacrifice my life for you, Anakin. I sacrifice, no, excuse me, Skywalker. I sacrifice my. life for you. I sacrifice my life for you. I see Vader right here. I call him Darth,

which is a flaw in the movie, because I'm making it seem as if that's his first name, but really it's his title. But I see you right there. I sacrifice my life for you because unlike Luke Skywalker, unlike Anakin Skywalker, unlike Ray, it's not about me. I'm Obi-Wan Kenobi. It's about the greater good of the galaxy and the resistance and the Republicans. It's not about me. Everything you guys are just talking about with the Skywalker's is all about them.

It's all about them. How they feel. Whole galaxy needs Luke Skywalker to come help. Luke, we're trying to find you. You're on some island. Look like New Zealand or something like that. Help me. No, I'm mad.

So I'm going to throw a lightsaber. I'm going to waste time in helping while everybody else is out there fighting, including your sister! including your sister. Your sister can't get you to pick up the lightsaber and come fight. Your nephew Wylan is your fault.

You taught him. Obi-Wan destroyed General Grevis, basically into the Clone Wars. That's a thing. That's a stat. That's a stat for Kenobi. You know, we're talking about all of this stuff, and we're talking about what Obi-Wan fails to do, and we're talking about it based upon the failings of the Skywalker.

the Skywalker family is in it of itself the problem with Star Wars. Every time somebody sees a Skywalker, you know why they don't kill them? Because they know they can turn them. And if that's the case, then the whole Jedi Council, the whole Jedi Order, that includes Mace Windu, that includes Yoda, that includes everyone. Everyone must have failed the Skywalker's because nobody. can stop them from flirting with the dark side. No one can stop them from trying to kill their nephews. No one can stop them from trying to,

for selling out their goddamn sisters. Okay, nobody. That's all. Mr. Lation, you rest your case? Hell yeah. Okay. We will allow closing arguments, brief closing arguments. Thank you so much for your.

time, your honor. Thank you to the jury. Even thank you to Mr. Lathen. Star Wars is a story about fathers and sons. It's a story about generational trauma. But most importantly, it's a story about leaving something better for the generations that come after us. Now, what you've heard from Mr. Lathen is him talking about the failings of the Skywalker's, but when me and a Star Wars expert came to him to discuss the failings of Obi-Wan Canobi, not defending Asoka, constantly holding up the Jedi Order and never questioning

if they could be better, we've seen this in our own world. what happens when the little people ask you to defund the institutions that are there to destroy us? I'm not here to say that the Skywalker's are perfect. But what I am here to do is to defend and praise Luke Skywalker. He didn't ask for this. He was a man thrust into this story. and at every single point he proved his greatness.

He didn't have the time. He didn't have the luxury to be taught by Jedi masters for years upon years upon years. No. When duty called, he went to the stars. He destroyed death stars. He saved his father. But most importantly,

even later in life, the controversial, everything that Van wanted to bring up, what Luke did was that he made a, men. And he raised a mentee in Ray. That was better than him. That could finally break this cycle. He had one of the greatest feats of a Jedi by casting his consciousness across the galaxy to prove that he would not be the last Jedi and that the force belongs to everyone. In closing, could we play what Luke says to Ray about the force? Force does not belong to the Jedi.

To say that if the Jedi die, the light dies is vanity, can you feel that? Luke is one of the greatest Jedi of all time. Because he does what so few Jedi ever did. He democratized the Force. He made us believe that anybody can be a hero. The Force is just life. He defended that. And he raised someone in Ray and arguably in Kylo Ren, who also comes back to

the Lightside, he raised two people that proved that the force lives beyond the Jedi. It lives beyond the legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi and beyond the legend of Luke Skywalker. And I'm here to honor the greatness of Luke against the defamation of Mr. Lathen. May the Force be with you. Thank you for your time. Thank you. Thank you to the ladies gentlemen of the jury. Thank you to distinguish your honor.

Thank you to opposing counsel. The Skywalker family just isn't worth it. I'm sorry. If you look at this in its totality, the Skywalker family just isn't worth it. They are the Kardashians of Star Wars. Let's be honest. They are the focal point of things.

They are the reason why we watch, but underneath everything, they are inherently flawed. The question becomes, can you save something that you broke? and if you can save something that you broke, is it a zero-sum game? Think of the billions of lives on the head of Anakin Skywalker.

Think about it. We talk about the fact that Darth Vader didn't kill Luke. He didn't want to kill him. He wasn't going toe-to-toe with Dark Vader in Empire. Darth Vader didn't want to kill him because Darth Vader knew that he, could turn him or thought he could turn him and he was so powerful that it would benefit evil. The Skywalker family is beneficial to the galaxy, but it is also beneficial to evil.

E. E. of people, the actual lives, how are you going to democratize the force when his shoe cleaners and meter maids in some off-brand planet that got killed because of you, because of your family? Kylo Ren can't undo what he did

because he kissed Ray at the end. They used the thing and killed a whole bunch of people. They killed a whole, but they killed. And Kyle O'Rand was right there. all Obi-Wan has ever done is help. He's helped in some big moments, sacrificed his life for Luke, lived on Tatooey to watch over Luke.

Every time they've called to him, he's helped because you know what? He is not duty and honor-bound to himself like a Skywalker is, like Luke was, when he decided he was going to destroy Kylo Ren, when that was not the right thing to do. All right.

when he decided he was going to toss that lightsaber over the thing when that was not the right thing to do. There, Obi-Wan has always been about the greater good. The Skywalker's always about these internal battles. Oh, it's ucky, it's yucky. Oh, your eyes are turning weird colors because you're becoming evil, Anakin. Ew, that's nasty. You don't care about what's going on in the galaxy.

You care about getting up under Padme. Luke himself ended up following to a degree in the footsteps of his father by choosing his own personal emotions over the greater good of the galaxy. Kylo Rin, Luke got up, chose his own personal emo angst over the greater good of the galaxy. When I'm talking about Obi-Wan Kenobi, I'm talking about someone that's spanning across a career that leads back to him being a teenager, has continuously not been perfect. Not been perfect, but has continuously put himself in position to contribute to the greater good. And he's done it without doing harm. He's done it without doing harm. Call upon Luke Skywalker, he might toss the lightsaber.

You call upon Obi-Wan Canobi. He's coming to help you out. I rest my case. Thank you very much. Bailiff Jones, please instruct our jury. Esteemed members of the jury, if you want to cast your vote in favor of Luke Skywalker for Charles

or Obi-Wan Kenobi for Van, you can go to the Ring ofverse on Twitter and on Instagram and join the Facebook group to cast your vote. Okay, Charles, real quick, I know you have to get out of here. I'm going to give you two reasons

why you have to watch Superman and Lois, okay? Charles. Charles, first of all, tell the people why you, why you don't fucking care about Superman and Lois.

Like, what's your thing? It's not that I don't care about Superman and Lois. I was like a huge CW fan. Like, I was a massive CW fan. I think Arrow Flash,

those couple, like those first couple shows were really, really good. But I think it had the issue that a lot of CW shows is they just, they go on too long.

They just go on too long. And at this point, it's going to take a lot for me to come back to the CW. I got to be real. I got to be real. Superman and Superman and Lois, it just doesn't entice me. It just doesn't, it doesn't do anything for you.

The way that Kalika and I got into Superman and Lois is we were in Hawaii, staying at the resort that was raining out. And I was like, yo, let's try that Superman show. Wait, is Kalika into superheroes or do you just have to kind of drag her along? She's into him. She's into him. I looked out in that respect. And so we watched the show.

We watched the first episode. Very rarely do you get not just a new take, but a refreshing take. So I'm sure you know the premise of the show. Superman and Law has moved back to Smallville from Metropolis, and they have two boys. One boy's power, the other boy isn't. I got to be honest with you. The show is really about Super Dad.

And that is, I'm telling you, it's a really refreshing, awesome look at Superman. It's really, the stakes are high. The movie is, it's beautifully shot the movie. The show is beautifully shot. And something about it that's really amazing is the acting is top notch. It's a Superman who is super powerful, but also very, very vulnerable. The kids are great, Jonathan and Jordan.

Lois Lane, Lana Lang, all of these things. It really, they have, you know, Lex Luther. He's a black man. Wait, they made Lex Luther a black man? Yeah, they're doing it. a different iteration of Lex Lut. I don't want to spoil it, but Superman fans know what Celeste they're doing. But like, so, but like,

you watch it and it's tying into the evil Superman situation as well. There are ties to that. So it's so deep and so layered and so beautifully acted and so beautifully shot. How about this? I am guaranteeing you right now, guaranteeing

you that if you watch Superman and Lois, if you like Superman at all, especially if you like All-Star Superman, you'll dig it. All right. You know what? I will give it one episode. One episode.

Let's do it. Let's do a swap. We should swap one episode. Steve, Steve, our producer, Steve, you there? Yeah, I'm here. I'm here.

We've been trying to get bad to watch an anime. Okay. For so long. So we're going to do a swap. I'm going to watch Superman and Lois. Steve, what do we want the anime to watch?

Oh, God. It's, we've been debating between two. It's either cowboy bebop or attack on Titan. I don't know if you were at all familiar with either one of those. I'm slightly familiar. familiar with Cowboy Bebop.

Okay. Jome, you can also be part of this. What do you think? You're not, you're not going to neon genesis. No, that's too, that's too tough. That's too tough.

That's too tough. It's my first one. It's too tough. I love it. But you know what? This isn't my favorite anime, but I'm like, we should tailor it to Van

because we want to make him a fan. So how about we do attack on Titan? That's one that's like, that's money. You know what I'm saying? We need to get them hooked. So, but next week, next week,

about like we both will discuss. We're both swapping. I got Superman and Lois. Van got attack on Titan. We both agreed to watch one episode. And this isn't Titan A.E. Is it? No.

No. I'm not trying to fuck with that. I saw that shit. Titan A.E. All right. All right, guys. All right, listen. We got the swap.

It's happening. And you guys, we have some amazing things for you to look out for coming in the future of the Ringiverse. We have our very first annual. Charles,

I know you're excited about this. MCU awards show. The Verses, I don't know if we have a statue out coming out yet, but yeah, that's going to be great. You're excited about that? You're excited about the awards,

giving out some awards to NCU? Oh, I'm so excited for the Verses. You know, we get to cross over with the House of Mal, you know what I'm saying? Bring a little chaos to the academia. Mal is going to be there. Yeah, yeah, it's us and Mao, the Verses.

And I think, you know, we're going to have some surprise guests from the ringerverse. You know, this actually might be the selling point of the name. We were like ringerverse, ringerverse is like the universe, but this is actually everybody crossing over who he's had on the ringerverse. So it's going to be pretty dope for us. Charles, you got an outro for us? Damn, I forgot the atro today. I'm too. God damn it. I was preparing for my fucking argument. Wait, instead of the outro, instead of our normal outro, can I do a Vader impression? And the people can tell us who's his Vader impressions.

Sure. All right. What should I say? You got to end with a pew-pue. Either way, you have to end with a pew, pew, pew, okay. Right. Luke, I am your father. Flu. Dude, it's fucking out of his mind. Pretty good, pretty good, right? You know, we got to here, man. I'm probably going to lose, right?

Because people love Blue Skywalker. I'm probably going to lose. But you, but. it's just because the question itself people is probably gonna look but you have to admit midnight court is fucking fun that was a great fucking argument like we got Loki coming

but we gotta give the people a couple midnight courts you know like like midnight court I'm sorry guys Midnight court is fucking fun no it's great it's great it's great I don't even give a fuck

like midnight court is fucking fun