The Ringer-Verse - 'Metal Gear Solid Delta: Snake Eater' and 'Twisted Metal' Season 2 | Button Mash

Episode Date: August 29, 2025

Ben places a codec call to Steve Ahlman and Matt James to review the new remake of 'Metal Gear Solid 3.' First, they discuss a deluge of upcoming sequels (including 'Hollow Knight: Silksong') and react to the latest indication that the console wars are over, hardware price hikes, and comebacks by two venerable ninja-centric series. Then they discuss how 'MGS3' holds up, how the remake alters the original, and the post-Kojima future of the franchise, before recommending indie gem 'Sword of the Sea.' Finally, Ben has a (mostly spoiler-free) chat with 'Twisted Metal' showrunner/writer Michael Jonathan Smith about how he conceived of the first two seasons, depicting the titular tournament in a bigger-budget Season 2, drawing on 'Twisted Metal' lore, the show's cast and comedic tone, and his vision for a third season. Intro (0:00)'Metal Gear Solid 3.' Review (23:00)Interview with Michael Jonathan Smith (1:09:13)Outro (1:41:14) Host: Ben LindberghGuest: Steve Ahlman, Matt James and Michael Jonathan SmithProducer: Devon RenaldoAdditional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up? It's Todd McShay, host of the McShay Show at The Ringer and Spotify. We're building this thing up and I couldn't be more excited to be back, talking college football and everything NFL draft with the most informed audience out there. That's you. My co-host, Steve Mentioned, I will be with you three times a week throughout the football season with all the latest news, analysis, and scouting intel from around the league. For even more insight, subscribe to my newsletter, the McShay report, to access my mickey. drafts, big boards, tape breakdowns, and other exclusive scouting content, you can't get anywhere else. It's going to be a great season. And I hope you'll be with us at the McShea show every step

of the way. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphaya offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Trimfaya is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a van. every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Tramphia, proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them,

and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu, like symptoms or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfairadio.com. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business.

Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services plus 24-7 U.S.-based support, millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. And welcome into the ringerverse, your nexus feed for all things fandom. I am Ben Lindberg, senior editor at The Ringer and big boss of Button Mash. Coming to you from my mother's basement where I'm living for the long weekend only, to be clear. I have constructed a pillow

fort in front of me for podcast sound dampening purposes, and I am joined today by two pals who have agreed to do me a solid, a metal gear, solid by joining me on this episode. First up, a junior mint, midnight boy, and senior audio producer, Solid Steve Allman. Gept you waiting. So a little exclamation point, just shine above your head. Just a little three. And the ringer's deputy art lead, Matt, Psycho Mattis, James. Finally a video game podcast recorded from someone's mother's basement. I know, brick in the molds here.

This is the first ever. This episode is so metal. We are talking about Metal Gear Solid and Twisted Metal. Couldn't make room for Metal Slug. metal Hellsinger, full metal alchemist, or Metal Mario, for that matter. We did a whole Mario draft last time. But we are covering multiple medals, at least an alloy, if you will, not Aloi. That's Horizon.

Later in the episode, I will chat with Michael Jonathan Smith, the showrunner and writer of the excellent unsung streaming series video game adaptation, twisted metal, which just wrapped its second season this week on Peacock. So climb a very long ladder, find a conspicuous cardboard box, and settle in for those two central topics this week. But we're also going to give you an indie game recommendation, sort of the sea. And first, we will run through some news because fellas, we find ourselves poised on the precipice of the holiday season games apocalypse. I know that the holiday season is not necessarily when the best or the most games come out anymore. but could have fooled me looking at the release calendar for the next couple months,

starting next week with Hollow Night Silk Song. It's not vaporware. It's real. It's most likely spectacular. And that's just the start because it is sequel city from here on out. Silk Song, Borderlands, Dying Light, Little Nightmares, Ninja Guidon, Ghost of Yote, Outer Worlds, Call of Duty, Battlefield, Pokemon Legends, Metroid Prime, Kirby Air Riders, Hades, presumably, and more, not to mention all the intriguing originals, arc Raiders, Keeper,

Mina the Hollower. Do not know how we are going to fit this all into the button mesh schedule, but we will try somehow. And Silk Song, it's here. I mean, who needs GTA6 when you have the GTA6 of indie games? Not me, that's for sure. I'm so excited. I'm very curious what, like, it was, we were almost that close to making. at the Silk Song before GTA6 meme

if that wasn't just as long in the tooth as the development. I was frankly more surprised when the developers were like, yep, we've always been working on it. We were just taking our time and in a forward momentum. I was like, all right. Keep that. That was the best. Yeah. Friend of the show, Jason Shrier at Bloomberg, he did an interview with Team Cherry makers of Silk Song.

And you expect knowing Jason and his deep dives into the making of games and just any game that takes this long to come out. It's going to be development hell. It's going to be, oh, we had to scrap it and start over and scope creep and it was miserable. No, they're just like, yeah, we were vibing. We were just having a great time. They're like entirely offline. Evidently, like they, they barely are aware of how much of a phenomenon Silk Song is. They're like, are we a meme? I didn't know that. So I love this, because it's like all the extremely online people, ourselves included, it's just been Soxong, Soxong, Soxong, and the actual makers of Silk Song

just blissfully ignorant of it all, just plugging away, having a great time with their creative endeavor. And now they have deemed the game ready to release. And now several other Indies just scrambling to get out of the way of the juggernautious. If you had an indie Metroidvania coming out in September, that is for you. And now you have probably delayed it, understood. but we're pretty pumped. And from what I understand, they are not sending out review codes to anyone, I believe. So we are getting this thing at the same time as everyone else. And we will just

pour a ton of time into it and podcast about it as soon as possible. So we'll get back to you about that. But we are just as excited as you are. Now, three other news items to run by you here. So we're talking about upcoming releases and sequels and such. But I want to talk to you about a remake or a remaster in this case and a port because this week on the same day, the console wars died another death because Gears of War reloaded, which is a remaster of the remaster of the original Gears of War, just came out not only on Xbox series, but on Steam and PlayStation 5. It's the lions, lion down with the lambs, pigs are flying, Gears of War is on PlayStation. Meanwhile, same day, Hell Divers 2, previously on PlayStation and PC, just came to Xbox.

Will wonders never cease. We've talked about the end of exclusivity and sort of the ceasefire in the console wars before. But if you weren't aware that that was happening, this would hammer at home because I got a code for Gears of War on Xbox. So I guess the impact of it was blunted somewhat. But playing Gears of War on PlayStation, for me, it just feels wrong. But I guess for many people who didn't have the chance to play it on Xbox before, it feels right. Yeah, nothing would really feel as wrong as Halo, though. If Halo gets on PlayStation, that's where I'm going to feel super weird.

Gears is weird enough, but Halo, if and when that happens, that's going to be weird. Brace yourself, because it's coming, right? We all know that it's coming. There's going to be a remake or Master Chief Collection or something. I definitely feel like there's going to be like a soul transfer that happens if Halo ever makes its way to PlayStation because there's definitely like an aura lost and I don't mean aura like the kids mean it but I mean like a genuine

draining of a spirit has left the Microsoft like cages and home base to have so many exclusives come out I mean regardless of whether or not the port is even good which apparently according to Steam reviews are mixed at best for years of war which kind of has been like a bit down in the dumps as far as how well it's been both technically ported

as well as well received critically, I feel like you kind of have to actually make this an impactful, ceremonious thing to come to PlayStation because as much as Microsoft would want this good of a pedigree and profile on a different console now, because that's the era that we live in, it seems like there isn't that much fanfare to be brought to it, which kind of feels counterintuitive to the point

where this needs to be a big deal, not just to the community that's experiencing it, but probably to the actual people bringing it to your new console. Yeah, if you were bipartisan as we are, if you play and own multiple consoles and have for years and don't really have a dog in this fight, I mean, it's not fanboyish, then it's not that big a deal

because you probably have already played this game once or maybe twice in multiple forms. But if you have never owned an Xbox, then perhaps you have never played Gears of War. And I played some of this. It's the same game with a fresh coat of paint, which is fine. You know, nothing mind-blowing about it. If you're a Gears veteran and maybe you prefer some of the later games and horde mode and everything else,

but if you've just never had any exposure to Gears of War, then now suddenly you can. So all the barriers are being broken down. And Hell Divers obviously has been a sensation for Sony and on PlayStation and on PC. but, you know, that came out last year. So it's a little less mind-blowing. Oh, now it's on Xbox. But gears, that's one of the biggies. That was one of the big selling points for Microsoft or Xbox for years.

This was an Xbox exclusive. And now no more. And the number of exclusives are just dwindling dramatically. And you can understand why. I mean, it's just you want more people to play your thing. You want more eyeballs on this. Microsoft is a game publisher more so than it is a console manufacturer. at this point. So my question really is just why will they keep making Xboxes and will people buy

them? I understand the business case for, yeah, let's put a popular game on a much more popular console, especially with Ede, the prequel to the original Gears of War coming out next year. So you prime the pump with the PlayStation players. Okay, you can go back to the beginning, check out Gears of War, and then you'll be all hot and bothered and ready to get the new game next year. And we've seen the wild success of Forsa Horizon on PlayStation. Yes. So this trend is not cooling off anytime soon. This is the new reality of the future.

And before long, it won't even feel weird. I mean, I think we can all remember the first time we played a Sonic game on a Nintendo system. And it doesn't feel as weird today as it did when that first happened. I will not normalize Sonic at the Olympics, though. I will not do that. He's obviously faster than Mario. Come on. That much is clear.

Get him up against Usain Bolt. All right, Prime Usain Bolt. Yeah, there's nothing sacred anymore. There's no third rail really. Halo when that domino falls, and I assume that it will, then maybe that'll seal the deal and make it official for everyone. But other than, I guess, Nintendo games going the other way, that's the one barrier that seems like it can't or won't be broken in the foreseeable future.

Nintendo's not going to put Mario on someone else's system. But, well, other than, I don't know, Mario Run or something along those lines. But, yeah, Nintendo's the outlier, the holdout. Everyone else is getting on boards. Yeah, we want people to play our thing. It makes some sense. Okay. Now, regardless of which platform you want to play those games on, if you want to get any of

these platforms, it's going to cost you. And it's going to cost you more than it used to. Because since time immemorial, we have been used to console prices. decreasing as the generation goes on. As these consoles and systems get a little long in the tooth, as the successor systems come out, you wait for a price drop. And you can pick them up on the cheap and explore the back catalog. Not so anymore. The console wars are over and the console price decreases are over because across the board, they are getting more expensive. Sony just raised prices for every PS5 model by 50 bucks. And they were the last to act.

Nintendo raised Switch 1 prices earlier this month. As you may recall, Switch 2 has been released. You'd think that might be the time to slash the price of the original switch? No, we're making it pricier, people. Not just the Switch light and the Switch OLED, even the original Switch. The old 2017 Switch went up by $40. And Microsoft was the first to act here, raised prices on Xbox systems and accessories and software, even back in May. So the Series X price went up by $100. And all of these companies have not said

it's Donald Trump's fault, but have said that in so many words, something about uncertain market conditions. It's tariffs. It's the economy, stupid. It's tariffs. It's tariffs on Vietnam, China. It's uncertainty about getting these parts and what it will cost to get them. And those prices are being passed on to consumers. So again, everything is. upside down. Consuls are getting more expensive. I guess if we adjusted for inflation, it wouldn't be as big a price bump. But still,

this is just weird. This is wild. Yeah, no, it feels like a major shift, not only in the types of things that we're going to be buying in the next few months, or if you were seemingly holding out on the availability of the switch to wait for availability,

let alone a potential price drop for an older one. I already know that Nintendo would have been feeding it, chopping at the bit to increase its price on anything, regardless of the political situation of any country. But for the sake of it making financial sense for any of these companies and even smaller creators, like my Instagram feed has been a wash of people being like, hey, I'm kind of shutting down shipping to the United States because these tariffs and the current political

climate is not conducive for my business. And this is what you get. It's really unfortunate to see the things that we not only love, but kind of are going to be needing. Like, getting a video game console is by no means the highest list of priorities of things that are going to be impacting on the U.S. economy. But it's going to be impacted nonetheless. I don't know how many of our listeners are into the retro handheld emulator scene, but it is currently being devastated by these tariffs. Oh, God. And this is a scene that has exploded.

in the past few years, and the progress made in these emulation devices has been super encouraging and really exciting, and U.S. is going to be hit with such huge tariffs on things because virtually everything is coming out of Shenzhen, China. So this is a huge blow to people who like to play retro games emulated or like to use those devices to utilize streaming services like you know, Xbox Cloud Play, Gforce Now, things like that. So, you know, and I'm sure there are tons of ways that this is impacting the gaming industry that we're not even aware of as well, fortunately. Yeah.

Yeah. So if you're a single issue voter, just getting radicalized right now, hashtag resistance, I want cheaper game systems. If that is your main reason to go to the ballot box, I guess you can try your best. Genuinely insane to be a single issue voter. and for that to be the issue. But usually this would be the time when people might get on boards if they couldn't afford these things when they were brand spanking new,

or maybe they're just kind of casual gamers, or maybe you have kids, and they won't know the difference between an old system and a new system. And so you pick up these things on the cheap or relative cheap, and you have several years' worth of games, which are themselves discounted. So if you can be patient, usually, then you can get yourself great deals if I don't have to play the new hotness

because I have to post or listen to a podcast about it, then you can come along several years later and just pick these things up out of the bargain bin, basically. But not as big a bargain as we are used to. So we will see whether these prices continue to just go up and up and up, or whether at some point gravity wins. All right, last little bit of news here. Less than a month apart, we got the release of two games that are now paired in my mind. So there had not been a new Ninja Guideon game of any kind since 2014. And then I guess good things come in threes because we're getting three Ninja Guideon games this year alone. In January, there is a remaster of Ninja Guideon 2 called Ninja Guideon 2 Black. July 31st, a spinoff called Ninja Guideon Ragebound came out. And in

October, Ninja Guidance 4 will follow. So I question the release strategy of going cold turkey on this franchise for more than a decade and then suddenly flooding the market with more Ninja Guiden games than we know what to do with it. But I can't question the execution because this game is good and has been very well received. Now, not long after Ragebound came out, we get another update to a long dormant franchise and a somewhat similar one. there had not been a Shinobi game since 2011, another blast from the past.

But this Friday, a reboot called Shinobi Art of Vengeance comes out, and it's gotten great reviews. So this is the Deep Impact versus Armageddon or Volcano versus Dante's peak of 2D ninja action side-scrolling games. We go this many years without a new Ninja Guideon or a Shinobi. you'd think that they could have coordinated their efforts. Hey, what are you guys going to reboot this franchise? Maybe we shouldn't do that a month apart. Maybe we shouldn't release three Ninja Guidance games in the span of a single year.

But here they are, and they're both good. Matt, you have played both of them, right? Because you played all of Ragebound and you've played at least the demo for the Shinobi game. Yeah, the Shinobi game will be out by the time you're listening to this. Let me tell you, if there's a problem in the industry with a number of Ninja Guiden games coming out, it is that there are not three coming out every year as far as I'm concerned.

I guess that we all of a sudden collectively remembered that ninjas are cool and we had lost our way, I suppose. Ninja Garden Ragebound is incredible. It is a 2D version, by the way, if you're not familiar listeners, the other two are 3D Ninja Guide games. But Ragebound takes a retro kind of modernized style to it and it's made by the game kitchen, the same developers is blasphemous. So the controls on this are really tight. The combat system is super rewarding.

The platforming is excellent. It's about a 10 to 12-hour game. It's challenging but not impossible. I had such a good time with this. And the Shinobi demo that I played was intriguing in a completely different combat way. And that takes kind of a little bit more of a modern look to it. But range-bats a bit more of a hack and slash and Shinobi is a little less so, a little less Arcady. Do I have that right? I have not played the Shinobi game yet.

I guess it depends on what your definition of Arcady is. They both do have that retro throwback feel to them, but they both have made very cool tweaks to the combat to keep it engaging. So it's actually, it's really fun to take a look at the two very different approaches that they've taken to combat and how successful they are while still both managing to feel nostalgic in a sense. I can't wait to play through Shinobi. Right now, I'm probably playing it right now, if you're listening. Not as we're recording. Not as we're recording. No, it feels like there comes to be a time where this, not so much a trend, but like a sort of recognition of a brand or recognition of a genre just immediately explodes.

And it's kind of just like a confluence of like different market testing versus like what some studios are just working on at the time. And they all kind of coalesce into one. thing. Do you remember when Way Forward was just doing hit after hit of either a remaster of a classic 2D side scroller or making a new great

2D side scroller with combat? They had like the mummy returns. They remade duck tails. They did another contra game. All within the span of like maybe five years. And you're like, what the hell is the output coming from this one studio that wants to just like push

all 2D scides scrolling platforms forward from the other. Like we, I've considered a streets of rage game in so long until these guys came along. And knowing that we've got a great level of ninja games coming out that are like, targeting back to like the Second Genesis era,

like I would, listen, I would have loved to see Shinobi return a la the PlayStation 2 with amazing scarf physics that really genuinely revitalized a lot of great technological advancements. But I think that this is like genuinely something that I were

checking out. Like all that to say, I've checked. out the demo of this, and it is amazing, and I will be checking it out later. I'm just really, really glad that ninjas are back. Strider lives, baby. Team Ninja declared this the year of the ninja, which is somewhat self-serving, but also accurate, Team Ninja, which has made Ninja Guidon historically. So, yeah, I don't know how this confluence happened, probably just a coincidence. And, you know, generally I'm skeptical of the idea that games have to get out of the way of other games, unless you're talking GTA. that's just going to swallow all the oxygen, then...

Or Silk Song. Typically, or possibly Silk Song. There's some dispute about that, even industry analysts saying, well, if you're Silk Song adjacent, if you're an indie game, if you're a Metroidvania, then, yeah, maybe clear some space. But if you have nothing to do with Silk Song, if you're an entirely different genre and probably a different player base, then, well, maybe you're not really directly competing with that in a way.

I don't know how many people are putting down FIFA to fire up Silk Song. Right. Right. Yeah. So anyway, we're happy to have both of these franchises back. We're getting Onimusha back next year. So please, you're the samurai. Bring them all back.

Yeah. Room for both. This is just, it's the best. The nostalgia is hitting and also the games are good. So warm memories and also happy presents. Ninjas have never gone out of style as far as I'm concerned. Okay. Ninjas are stealthy.

So is snake. Let us talk about Metal Gear Solid Deli. Sake Eater. This is a remake of Metal Gear Solid 3 snake eater, which came out for PS2 in 2004. Now, MGS3 has been upgraded and remastered and re-released at least four times before by my count. There was subsistence, which came out just a year after the original. There was Snake Eater HD. There was Snake Eater 3D.

You get the point. But this is a remake developed by. Iconami and Virtuos, released on Thursday for PS5, PC, and Xbox series. We played it on PC because we got codes for PC. So we had a little choice in the matter, but Metal Gear enthusiast and our pal and fellow ringer staffer, Justin Charity, is on parental leave, or he would probably be here too. But I did want to talk to you two about this remake because you come to it from very different directions. Steve, MGS3 is one of your favorite games, right? Is it, is it fair to say that? This is a game

you played back in the day and have revisited perhaps several times. It is top three or top two in my entire gaming career. And it goes back and forth based on how many times I've played it. And Matt, you had never played this game. What's more, you are something of a Hideo-Kajima skeptic, not a not a Kajima hater, David Hater. but you haven't drunk the Kojima Kool-Aid, let's say. So I was very curious about how you would receive this with fresh eyes and how Steve would receive this, just seeing a facelift, an Unreal 5 engine facelift for this game that he knows and loves and remembers well. So Steve, if you could give some historical perspective, perhaps the standing of MGS3 in the end.

annals of Metal Gear Solid, how this game is remembered, how it's distinguished from other Metal Gear Games. I guess one takeaway would be that this is a good place to start if you've never played a Metal Gear game because it's a prequel. It's the origin story, essentially. So in the timeline, chronologically speaking, it is the first Metal Gear Game. Yeah. So the timeline of Metal Gear Solid, the entire saga, is, I'll say convoluted at best and bullshit at actual. There's an amount of like just hand throwing and just like fuck it we ball level of storytelling that you are kind of in or out of if you are down for an experience like that but that being said middle of gear solid three is probably the straightest of fastballs that kojima has probably conceived

when it comes to his storytelling it is a throwback to a kind of simple James Bond level storytelling about spies and villains and ridiculous types of international stakes to prevent nuclear warfare with a sprinkling of

heady ideas that he is known for in the likes of Metal Gear Solid 2 and 4 but here seems to be relatively subdued. All that to be said, the reason that this is likely the biggest place to start is because

that Konami, while given the absence of Kojima in 2015, after he left under very, very contentious circumstances with MGS5, is now wanting to kind of like give his work the type of spit shine without his involvement. And I come into this genuinely curious as to whether or not I can enjoy a remake of someone's game without their direct involvement given the profile of Kojima because you don't really think of it as a Konami game.

You don't think of it as a Middle Gear game. You think of it as a Kojima game. And I'm curious as to whether or not that is going to translate or needs to really be translated for that. Because you could say that a purist wouldn't want

to play something like this if he wasn't involved. And I think that that's kind of insane. But all that being said, I think this is probably one of the most interesting remakes that I've ever played because of the fact that it wants to be so stalwartly loyal to the experience that you had while also trying to give you something new and interesting that is bound to ruffle some feathers. I'm very curious to know what

Matt actually thinks, though. This is probably the most scared I've ever been. If I chat on Expedition 33, this is his time to come back at me. Yeah, you deserve everything that you're about to get if so. But yeah, just to tee up, Matt here, I guess MGS has not had quite as extended a drought as Ninja Guidon or Shinobi, but close because this franchise has been basically dormant since Kojima departed. There was the not well-received Metal Gear survive in 2018, which was the first post-Kojima attempt at a Metal Gear game. Meanwhile, Kojima has been busy doing Death Stranding, obviously. So his legacy, looms over this game. Now, obviously, his name is all over it. It's not as if Konami is trying to hide the history here. And there are people who worked on this game and worked with Kojima who are still at Konami. Not everyone left when Kojima left. So there's some continuity there. But I think that absolutely has a bearing on the approach that Konami took here, because that's always the question with a remake, more so than a remaster, just how much do you want to mess with success? How much do you

want to just put a fresh coat of paint on the thing and how much do you really want to modernize it and change it in significant ways. And yeah, you're right. Maybe the Kojima faithful won't be that interested in essentially a carbon copy of the original, but also they would perhaps revolt if Kojima-less Konami were to say, actually, we think that the game should have been like this all along, right? And so I think they were kind of constrained perhaps in their creative vision here just because they know that if they messed with anything and people didn't like it, then that would come back to bite them. So, Matt, do you have any Metal Gear history?

Did you just skip three? Have you not played Metal Gear games at all? Here's my history. So I actually bought a PlayStation secondhand from a friend in high school specifically to play Metal Gear Solid on PlayStation, which I absolutely loved, by the way, loved. And then I played Metal Gear Solid 2 on PlayStation 2. And while I thought the graphics were good and the gameplay was improved, Steve you mentioned headiness in Kojima Metal Gear games.

And the story in Metal Gear 2 was a very big letdown for me to the point where it soured me a good deal on the franchise. And actually, I remembered my experience with Metal Gear Solid 3 back in the day because I do remember having hands on it, but I know I didn't, like, obviously play through the whole thing. What happened, I remember now, is there was a demo for Snake Eater. I think on, like, official PlayStation magazine had demo discs with every episode.

There was a demo for it that I played. So I played basically up to the title card of this game back in the day and was like, so that is my history with Metal Gear. I also played Game Boy version. back in the day. I haven't touched a Metal Gear game since I went at the demo. But I will say that the idea of a Kojima game without him at the wheel

was actually kind of appealing to me as someone who kind of wishes there was just like one guy in the room with him at every point, just being like, eh, you sure about that? Just one guy to be like, yeah, you want to do that? Yeah, right. And him either being like, good point. Or yes, absolutely, just one person in the room. Yeah, not like a sensitivity reader or player, although, well, some of those games could have used that too.

But more just like this is how this will land with normal people, I guess. It's not even an insult because Kojima's non-normality is what many people love about him. You can't really take the Kojima out of a Kojima game, though. It's pretty ingrained in there. And yeah, Steve, you kind of compared this to like a James Bond sort of espionage. spy thriller. And it is that, but it's also like a little Austin Powers. It's like, is this a spoof or is this like a straight ahead? It's hard to tell with Kojima whether he is sort of, like there's always a whimsy and it's silly and it's absurd and it's ridiculous. And you're

never totally sure whether part of that is unintentional or not. Yeah. Is this bad or is he like winking at me? And even if he is winking at me, is it, does that make it good? Like, still bad. Yeah. There's that level of, like, divisiveness in a level of self-seriousness that makes you feel like Projima's fucking with you, the player, specifically, because you will be spoken at about the horrors of nuclear proliferation and the, like, indemnable damage that governments in the wrong hands can do.

and then you're going to shoot a little frog figure that makes it go so you can get a nice little trophy at the end of it. And there's far more to that. There's far more even problematic things that likely shouldn't be in games that are adapted these many years later on. And we have warning symbols and talks about the things that shouldn't be in those games. But there's kind of a level of mad-capable. quality to this

that the amount of sheer things that this game thinks of that you can do regardless of whether or not their air quotes good or air quotes fun it's the fact that these things can happen and that you can

discover upon these things and that was really the appeal to me in my youth as to the fact that like I played this game so many times because I heard so many things that people could just do in them. I'm like, oh my God, you could kill a boss before you even encounter that boss properly. And that entire encounter is just gone.

Yeah. And like you thought that you could just do that in RPGs. But like in a cinematic, like, seemingly linear way, all of these things are considered. And all of these things are thought about. And you have different camouflagees and all of these things that are like collectibles, but not really collectibles because we didn't have the concept of trophies. We didn't have the concept of like speed runs or achievements. and all these things can be incorporated.

And I think the things that make this remake so interesting are things that already are in the original game. And if I were to ever start this kind of review with criticism, it's the fact that it's kind of bereft of spirit a little bit because of the fact that it is so loyal to this and the real things that I could actually only critique it on are the things that it adds and the things that it starts to take away.

And the biggest thing that I think that it takes away is the art style that is translated from the original. There's a big amount of lushness of color and of noticeable difference in character design that doesn't exactly irk me, but it seems to dull the flavor just a tiny bit where like this yellow sheen it doesn't exist in this game anymore.

and the kind of like cartoonish, easy spirit that characters have in their design isn't there because it's realistic, but it still tries to be faithful. Matt, I'm sure you have a bit more of a robust criticism, but I think that's really like my main complaint here. I actually wanted to let you know. I guess you must have not seen this in the settings,

but there is a filter that you can apply to the game. The legacy filter. There is. To go back to that greenish yellow tint. Make it green. If you missed that kind of like baby, poop color that the original had. Right, and like the

piss filter of the early 2000s really is something to be, you know, lauded because that was a, that was a, there was a moment of time that we all loved that. We played Army of two and everybody got along, great. But I wanted to try to like meet this game on its own terms

like fresh out the box of like, all right, let's just press X as many times in order to get me to starting the game. And that is likely the intended way that these developers wanted me to play it. So I did the new style, I did the most recent, like the

non-updated filter, and I kind of just wanted to see what that was. And without those things, there's just like a slight dulling of the blade. There's a slight watering down of the sauce that I just noticed enough. But that being said, I still had an amazing time.

I still did all of the things that were now muscle memory to my 16-year-old self. And I still walked away having a good time with it. Yeah, that's something that a lot of remakes and remasters wrestle with when you pridify a game this old. Now, in our mind's eyes, in our memories, if we played it at the time, it looks great to us. And then you look at the screenshots and you say, oh, that's not really what I remember it looking like. And so you want a remake or remaster to just bring it up to date and

make it look like you remember it looking, make it look like a modern game with the old game under the hood. And that doesn't always work perfectly. And sometimes you do sacrifice some atmosphere. It's like playing Gears of War reloaded. It's in 4K and it looks good, but it's like those super exaggerated, you know, like muscle morph, like cartoonish characters in 4K. It's just like it looks a little off kind of. Or, you know, some N64 games or like the older GTA games and you bring them into the future and you remove some of the fog, let's say, that they used just to kind of camouflage things

because they couldn't do the draw distance. And then you realize, oh, that actually made it more atmospheric, at least if you played it at the time. And there's something lost there. And I do think this game does a decent job, though, of letting you recreate that if you want that. So there is this legacy filter color. There's, you know, various UI options if you want it to look more like it did.

If you want the original, more fixed, top-down camera angle, you can play it that way. and it's more or less the same game, just prettier and higher res. And for better and worse, it's very faithful and true to Kojima's off-kilter, singular vision here. And there are ways in which, you know, it's aged. And so you say, oh, this is actually,

this is more linear than I remember it being, or these areas are smaller and more contained. Because it's not a super long or expansive game, and you're kind of just going from place to place along a prescribed path, and you're doing this sneaking around. And you guys know that I, stealth games, not my bag exactly, but my quarrel is more with like games that aren't dedicated stealth games, but have stealth elements.

And then they're not always implemented well. Like, you know, in its original form, Star Wars Outlaws, for instance. If you have a dedicated stealth engine, then I can get into that. I can admire that. And we seem to see less of that these days. We've been without MGS and Splinter Cell. I know there's an animated adaptation coming or thief. There's a VR game coming.

But that kind of just dedicated sneaking, I think, has been in fairly short supply. And so it's nice to have one of the OGs back. And it plays, at least with the sort of standard traditional controls. It plays like it used to, which again, will be kind of off-putting for people who are used to more modern action game controls. And then there is the option to have more modernized controls and more MGS5 style. I mean, not exactly, but kind of a hybrid of three and five sort of, you know, the standard control scheme that we're used to.

But that does change the game in some significant ways. Yeah, I'm curious as a newbie to this entire story, Matt, how their interpretation of a modern style control scheme worked for you versus me who was like, I literally kind of like switched every other encounter area between styles just to kind of like see how that worked. Interesting. Yeah, I played with the modernized controls.

As someone who played Metal Gear and Metal Gear 2 back in the day, I still found them to be nostalgic, the controls. Like they didn't change the game systems. just kind of altered the view. And so I really enjoyed the modern control scheme option. And I thought it was pretty tastefully, you know, like referential to the originals while still being comfortable for the modern gamer. Yeah, I wonder if that's one reason why we see fewer dedicated stealth games in this mold

just because we're used to being able to look everywhere. And that does change things. Like in the original top-down view, when you're kind of... of constrained with this fixed ankle, it becomes a more deliberate experience. You know, you're just sneaking around because you don't really know what's in front of you, what's around the next corner, whereas with the more modern controls where you're kind of over the shoulder, you can just look and see what's coming, you know? And so I find myself just kind of blazing through some of these encounters that in the past would have been much more painstaking and slow-paced just because

I could see more. So it almost felt like kind of a cheat code or something. That's so crazy to me because, again, I was so not used to that. As much as I played MGS5, this does not feel like MGS5. MGS5 feels way better

than this game. In the modern style, because the classic style, it feels exactly the same as the original. But the use of that camera in modern style really makes you realize the constraint of an old game like this

because every area is so small and every place is so like kind of curated to this sort of like top down diorama that you are making Snake go through and everything is kind of set up for that. And given in some boss battles, you're not supposed to even move around in first person. You're supposed to plant your feet,

look through first person so you can get an angle on a gun so you can shoot this person at just the right place. All of those things very constraining for the time, but still very quite modern for them. Now, I can spin the camera around 360 degrees. I could be looking around corners. I can be utilizing all of these things about my play style

that while not necessarily a cheat code, kind of made me overthink encounters and made me overthink this world to where I'm just like, wait a minute, no, I'm supposed to be like taking my time and slowing myself down because I need to actually meticulously look for places and look for all of these things. And now it's just kind of, again,

like it loses a bit of that touch. So I find myself defaulting to classic style just so that I can kind of restore that feeling for the sake of the game. They had remade this game in a lot more of an open world, less loading screens between encounters or a sort of like expansion a la

the Resident Evil remakes. Like when they remade four, that game is bigger than that original GameCube game. And the controls reflected. Whereas I feel like you just took everything in MGS3 and gave me the controls of five as best you could. That makes a game feel a lot smaller than it actually is. And I think that might have been the slight misstep here.

But then again, I can't fault it because it tried to do literally the thing that most remakes are doing, which is having its cake and eating it too, of making everything more shiny, everything more modern, while still appeasing the things that couldn't possibly make you mad. Yeah, you can play both ways.

You can pick your poison. Yeah, and I still can't really be mad at it. Yeah, it is a bit game-breaking almost. I just, I know too much, I see too much, you know? I have an advantage that I didn't in 2004. And yeah, you can voluntarily just remove that advantage from yourself. But they needed to include that control scheme just to be more accessible to people who were playing this for the first time and are used to a different control scheme. And there's a lot of quality of life stuff, improvements.

It's just easier to manage the menus, the camo, the foods, you know, the frequent patching and bandaging, which is not my favorite thing. I mean, it felt kind of groundbreaking at the time. It's like, okay, this is hyper-realistic. I'm going to get hungry. and we have to kill animals and eat them. And after every encounter, I've got to bandage myself up. And, you know, that stuff was like kind of immersive, I suppose, but also a headache just to navigate the menus. So they've streamlined that a bit.

You've got the close quarters combat, which came in in this game. And what still feels pretty ahead of its time is just the very reactive, adaptive, adaptive, interactive, messing with the guards, the interaction. It's not like the best enemy AI you've ever seen, and yet there's something about it where the parameters are very clear and you can do things to mess with the guards in entertaining ways and also just unexpected ways,

like this emergent stuff that happens where you didn't even realize that you could do something to get past these guards or that it'll come back into play later that sort of impresses me even after all these years. Matt, did that, like, did that translate for you at all where like there's like an aura of discovery

that you can, uh, like do things like fuck with the enemy's radio or get rid of their food rations or kill their radios entirely? Uh, like, was that, was that either like made aware to you? Like, have you like known about that or is that something that the game revealed itself to you?

I've kind of known about that kind of stuff. Although I did discover some of that on my own as well. I guess I should just, kind of tell you what I thought about the game as well at some point. Please. So, yeah, I'm a Cajima skeptic. I love this game. I had a fantastic time with this game.

Okay, great. It's kind of cinema. It really is. I mean, they certainly discuss cinema for extended stretches of this game. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. That's one of my biggest criticisms. Every time I save, every time I save, I have to talk about your letterbox account.

Essentially, we know you like movies. Oh, my God, I need to make that letterbox list now that you said that. Oh, speaking of which, one of the movies that is mentioned is called On the Beach, which I didn't know about that movie. And obviously, that is where Kogima must have drawn inspiration for the Death Stranding 2 title. Even then, the wheels were turning. Yeah. And, of course, the protracted cutscenes. So you're essentially watching a movie for much of this game.

And much of the story is sort of backloaded. So it's kind of incomprehensible for a while. while and then they cram much of the emotional payoff until the end of the game. Yeah, it's a big, dumb action movie with a good sense of humor and an excellent theme. My God, that's like Bond level theme, the Snake Eater song, that thing. Yeah, you want that ladder to go on forever. I wake up. I still got that in my head, yeah. Yeah.

Honestly, the biggest thing that scared me was the fact that they remade that song from the original. Yeah. Like, they re-recorded the same singer. It's great, but the original is better, but I was like, yo, you are playing with fire if you are messing with that song. Sorry. I needed to say that.

It's interesting for me to hear you talk about the story in reference to the other Metal Gear games because, yeah, too, I had a big problem with how heady it got. And this was, as you said, very direct. And I thought that it concluded very well. There were some nice little

plot twists in there. It was a really nice self-contained experience that I very much enjoyed for what it is. And it seems like more than Metal Gear 2, Metal Gear 3, doesn't take itself quite as seriously in terms of having an emotional impact or that much to say, I guess. I mean, certainly there are messages in there about loyalty and trust and all of these things. But not at a level that is kind of forced in your face and pseudo intellectual kind of stuff that I came across in MGS2.

So I do have criticisms, obviously. But it is a, you know, how old is this? 20 years old is this game? Yeah. Yeah. And it is a product of its time to the point that there's an opening disclaimer about how the game is a product of time. Don't get that in us that you're just going to ogle female characters. because it's Coteema's fault.

This is before the Bechdel test, right? Yes. Because, man, every woman in this game is sexualized to a wild degree. Yeah. But, you know, that was in Metal Gear One as well. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And five and all of them.

I don't know how many butts were looking at. She had to breathe through her skin, Steve. That's why. Jesus Christ. Don't even get me started on quiet. That's the lore. That's the canon. Anyway, the other thing is that, so this is a full

price $70 game. And there's the question of, is it good? And then there's the question of, is it worth full price? There are some performance problems here on consoles, especially, it seems. There's no online mode yet. The online mode that subsists added did not launch with this game, though it's evidently coming soon. And yeah, there's not much new here, really, aside from the fact that it looks great and new. So I think that this is the best version of the game to get, if I were recommending to someone who had never played MGS3, which addition, I would say, yeah, go get this one. But it's 70 bucks.

So there's that. Can we talk about the new mode they added? Did you guys play that? Is that a spoiler to talk about? I don't know. No, I think we can't. The monkey, the ape? That's actually not new.

Is that not new? That was in the original as well. Snake versus monkey was in the original as well. It was a Astorbot in that? That was then No, Astrobot was not in that No.

Astrobat's new So that's new Yeah, Astrobat's new. Man, that 8-mode is dumb And I love it. No, that's the shit that Like, that's what, I'm like,

this is fucking capital G gaming right here. So if you guys don't know, if your listeners don't know, you basically have these very hilarious side missions if you want them where you have to go around an existing map within the game

and, and capture the ape escape apes that are hidden throughout the map and try to get a low time while doing it. Yes. I found-in-s-energy. Also, the Apes have their own metal gear. Yes. Yes, of course.

Why wouldn't they? So I guess the last question then is what's next, assuming we want more metal gear at all. Do we want Konami made new metal gear? Do we think that they have the chops, the right to continue the series with an all-new installment, or do we want, say, remakes of even older Metal Gear games, which would be even more challenging, probably from a technical perspective,

but maybe a bigger payoff just because it would be a more meaningful difference. To know that they could do this with Metal Gear Solid 4 is actually possibly more important because not to say that that game is better than this, because it isn't, but that game has been borderline inaccessible to both emulate as well as port for the better part of two console generations and not that many people have played it and it's like I'm not going to say it's been lost to time

but there have really have not been a lot of people revisiting that because of its inaccessibility to port that. The PS3 was notoriously bad at exporting its emulation and MGS4 is probably one of the more not so much lauded, but like the contentious cinematic, this could have been the end of Solid Snake and the end of the story entirely. So there's like, this is when like Kojima starts to probably

believe his, like, get a little high on his own supply in a ways that I still kind of like. And I really need to play that game. I would definitely play, if they wanted to give the MGS Delta treatment to four and five, I would absolutely play those, even though I get the sense based on what you're saying that I would enjoy them less.

You absolutely would not like them based on that. You might like five, but certainly the things that happen in four, if you don't like the things that happened in two, guess what? You're getting hour-long cutscenes about all of the things that happened in two and three. I would like to see new Metal Gear's not helmed by Kojima, though. I think it's possible.

I don't think to assume that he's the only one who could possibly make a Metal Gear game is a little silly to me. Like he's created the vibe. It's been studied extensively. I feel like you can find someone to hit that tone while maybe even being a bit more concise. Granted, like you're going to have to navigate

a firestorm of people's opinions on the internet, releasing any Metal Gear game without Kojima. But after the first one, might not be that strange anymore. Yeah, you're playing with fire there because it is such an a tourist series. It's so associated with one creator, even though obviously many people made these games.

But I would be interested in someone with a slightly different sensibility because if it feels like someone doing Kogina copycat, a Kojima clone, it would be hard to recapture that ethos, I think, and maybe would just seem like a pale imitation, but maybe you take it in a completely different direction. Now, I'm sure that all of the gamers would be completely fine with that.

There'd be no backlash to that whatsoever. But no, I'd be interested in seeing it in someone else's hands. But I think this release, it's sort of a flag planting. It's a proof of concept. It's, hey, we can be responsible stewards of the legacy of this series, despite the somewhat not amicable ending. between us and Kojima and maybe we can build on that. Yeah, and I think that they don't have to make like the next flagship,

you know, sequel to Metal Gear to start. Like maybe you do something like you have like an Xcom like tactical Metal Gear solid game that doesn't claim to be right, the next chapter. It's sort of a side story vibe with a different control scheme. So you don't have to necessarily, you know, take on that weight of being like, the next Metal Gear Solid.

Boy, Matt, have I got a Metal Gear game for you that already exists that is right for being remade? Metal Gear Asset. Have you heard of this game? I don't know if I have. Is it like VR missions? What's going on? No, it's technically it's VR missions, but it's also

card-based tactical battles laah Metal Gear Solid. If you look at some, it's kind of genius. Is this PSP? Plus, stealth. Yes, my worst nightmare. Yeah, what was the, I know there were a few PSP Metal Gear games.

I never had a PSP, so I never got around to any of those. Metal Gear acid might have been like probably the more like contentious one where like people just wanted to play a Metal Gear game and it wasn't it. And then you had the Peace Walkers of the world that really modernized what five would be where it was base building. It was building a force. It was like, kind of like deploying forces in different directions. But Metal Gear Acid was kind of a little, like a mini stroke of genius to make a sort of like tactics game out of Metal Gear that is really something special.

It's a card battler. So you know that Ben will be in. Oh, I'm on the, yeah. For a while there, the cadence, it was like an annual release. I mean, there was a new Metal Gear game of some sort every year, if not multiple times a year. So it's been a long drought. I'm glad it's back in some form. We will see what, if anything, they have up their sleeves next.

Hopefully, something better than survive, but at least the series survives. So this is the headliner. This is the big game that people are playing and talking about. But we did want to shine a spotlight on a little indie that could hear more quickly. We will touch on Sword of the Sea and give our high recommendation for that. It came out last week for PC and PS5, glowing reviews from just about everyone, including us. It's one of the top dozen or so metacritic, open critic scores of the year.

This was developed and published by Giant Squid, the makers of Abzu and the Pathless. This is the studio founded by Matt Nava, who was the art director of Flower and Journey. The score is composed by Austin Wintery, who also worked on Journey in the previous Giant Squid games as well as lots of other projects. So it looks and sounds like Absu and Journey.

It's a journey like. It's sort of in the same universe as Absu. But it's its own thing and it's a great thing. And it's a thing that you can pick up and play in, oh, three to five hours, let's say. And it kind of combines the beautiful art and sound that you are used to from this creative team with great exploration and a little lore and atmosphere, but also fun mechanics. Because that's sometimes my... concern with a journey like or with a just extremely indie prestige game, it's like, will this be a little simplistic to play, perhaps? Will it just be pretty to look like?

And it'll have some nice themes, but mechanically, it won't be that interesting. Not the case with Sword of the Sea, which is about riding a sword over the sea and in the sea, as it says in the title. And it's just extremely kinetic and fun and just sort of exhilarating. It made me want to pick up Tony Hawk again, I guess, or play SSX or something. I wanted to play a snowboarding game after I finished sort of the sea. Yeah, the feel of this game is incredible,

especially this is a rare game that takes good advantage of the dual sense haptics if you're playing on PlayStation and not Windows, which I would recommend. Just carving up the sand or the water underneath you feels incredible in a way that few games kind of hit on. There are those rare games where you can open it up

and it just feels great to move around, right? Like Spider-Man games or like Donkey Kong Bonanza this year, like the feel of Sword in the Sea is what will, as well as the music, what will sort of remain in my memory. It's just a joy to play. It's super relaxing and beautiful. And anytime a game doesn't have dialogue

and it's just gorgeous visuals and music and vibes, like, man, that's an easy recommend for me. How about you, Steve? I'm a big fan of this. I felt the urge to call this type of game a religious pilgrimage simulator, mainly because of the fact that there's a uproarious uplifting of one's spirit

when you complete something that this game wants you to do, and it's all about beautiful settings and, like, kind of just feeling what you feel when you play a game like this. That's kind of every time that I've played a journey like or a sort of the sea, or an ab zoo

something like that where this like the journey is the feeling that you get when you play it and these controls are incredible the art style is once again

gorgeous the music is thrilling and beautiful I don't like again it's amazing but like I wonder what a game like this has to do new and differently to not say hey they did a great journey game again

and I'm not even mad at it but I'm just curious of like, is this ever going to get old? Is this ever going to be a thing that we're ever getting tired of if they just like, all right, now it's extra celestial roller skates that you are like sliding from galaxy to galaxy. Like I'm down for that. If it feels great to play, I don't care.

But there's only so much that I can say other than it feels amazing. Yeah. That's the redeeming aspect of it, I think, even though it sounds great, it looks great, but also feels familiar in those ways, but it feels fresh also just because it is just so fun to tool around on this sword. And it's, you know, it would be a walking simulator, but for that. And instead, it's more of a surfing or snowboarding simulator. And that's just more fun mechanically to control. And you can upgrade your sword and you can jump higher and you can do various tricks. The tricks are sort of ancillary, you know, just for fun and a few challenges. And,

And yeah, there's not a lot of like challenge to it. The stakes are more emotional. And, you know, you kind of get a sense of what happened to this world and why is it deserted and why are you alone. But of course, you're not entirely alone. And all the communication is nonverbal, wordless, but still meaningful. You've played journey, you know, right? But it just feels really fun. And it doesn't overstay.

It's welcome. I finished it in five hours, but that's because my daughter kept taking the controller. and just surfing around, which was fun because there was no downside to that. There was no penalty. It's not like you can die, really. So that was fun for her and fun for me to watch. And then you're done. And it's got a good new game plus mode.

And I'm not much of a new game plus player. But in this case, because it's a short experience and you can finish upgrading your abilities. And then there's like a speedometer so you can see how fast you're going. and you can sort of speed run it in a sense. And the exploration aspect of it is actually quite intriguing. That's a wonderful sandbox of a game. I like your comparison to walking simulator on a snowboard. Let's do that to all of the walking simulator games.

Let's get a snowboard in Firewatch. Let's put a skateboard in a thousand X-enched. But with surfing, yeah. Yeah, it's best of both worlds. So we really enjoyed this game. give it among our highest recommendations if you're looking for something that you can pick up and play in a single sitting, just depending on your tolerance for sitting, certainly in a single day. So go check out sort of the sea. And that one is 30 bucks.

So if Snakeater is a free on PS Extra, I think. That too. Yeah. Yeah, it's a great month for PS Plus if you're still listening to this in August. So a little lighter hit on the old checkbook or pocketbook for you. So that's a good compliment to the big AAA remake of the week. And we have so many more games coming down the pike as we covered at the top of the pod. We also have many more pods coming on the Ringiverse.

We've got Ringiverse recommends coming up on Sunday with a focus on Foundation season three. Matt and Steve will both be appearing and recommending games on this episode. Matt has another journey like to tell you about. So be sure to tune in. listener nominations still welcome at ringerverse recommends at gmail.com. Get them in soon because Steve is producing this podcast and we want him to have some time to himself this weekend. Then the Midnight Boys, PooPew, we'll be back to talk peacemaker and Steve and Jomey will do a

big comics catch up on Mint Edition and over on House of Our, our favorite, our pal, our friend, our beloved Joanna, has returned, which brings warm feelings to our heart. She and Mal will continue House of ours coverage of alien Earth and begin House of ours long-awaited, much-anticipated coverage of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. But Mash will be back to talk Silk Song and Borderlands. I can't believe I'm saying that, Silk Song. It's real. This is not a hoax. Oh, you weren't talking about Borderlands?

Okay. Well, that too. That's also real, but it's a little less hard to believe. I am so morbidly fascinated by Borland's four. imagine if Silk Song were a hoax. Imagine if that were just a big practical joke played on the entire internet. But no, I don't think that's the case. Silksong, Borderland, Silent Hill, so much more coming soon.

And of course, you can contact us at Ring Reverse Gaming at Gmail.com. Now, you guys are going to get out of here, and I'm going to talk Twisted Metal. But I will just talk to you about Twisted Metal for a second because you guys have seen some of it, right? You've seen the first season. Is that right? Correct. I have not actually and I've not seen any twisted metal.

I need to get on that. Yeah, you're not alone. This series just doesn't seem to get a lot of love, but I think it deserves some. It's really good. It far surpassed my expectations for it, which were nil, essentially. So that helps.

But Jess and I talked about this a couple years ago when the first season came out as part of a larger conversation about video game adaptations. For whatever reason, this doesn't seem to have broken through. I don't know if that's because the Twisted Metal Game franchise is not at the top of people's minds, or if it's because it's on peacock.

I would imagine that a big part of it is that it's on peacock. Nonetheless, this is a great show. I mean, it's just got an excellent cast headlined by Anthony Mackie, Captain America himself, Stephanie Beatrice, just a great cast top to bottom. And it's just fun, you know? It's a half-hour action, comedy. it's true to the spirit of the original twisted metal if you cared about twisted metal. They blow up the Eiffel Tower?

You don't have to tell me if it's a spoiler. Spoiler, yeah, no. I need to do no big wheels. That's what I need. That guy, Axel, he's there in season two. Hell yeah. And very prominent. Yeah.

So Axles here, that was one of the reservations people had about the first season of Twisted Metal is that there was no twisted metal. The actual tournament. The Mortal Kombat. Exactly. The Mortal Kombat moves. So they have saved Twisted Mel for season two, and now it's there in all its glory. That sounds great.

And it is faithful to the games in a lot of ways, but just, you know, just a lot of vehicular combat, which we don't get enough of in gaming these days. And here it is on screen. This series does not take itself too seriously. It does have a heart, but it just has a lot of gags and slapstick sophomoric humor. And I can't get enough of it. It's just a really refreshing combination of like, you know, you could call it a dromedy. but it definitely leans into the absurdity of the series. And it goes so fast.

This is one of the series that I'll put on an episode, and it just feels like it flew by, which is partly because it's kind of short, but also just because it's just extremely digestible. So I can't recommend it highly enough. This is not going to be your HBO Sunday Night prestige-style video game adaptation, but we've got enough of those these days. This is a great palette cleanser.

I hope I have convinced you, Steve, to check out season two. which just concluded and you, Matt, to start at the start. Yeah, I'll binge the whole thing. Please do and report back. This is worth your while. And I will be back in just a little while with the developer of the series, the writer, the showrunner, Michael Jonathan Smith, who will be back to dissect the second season with me.

And if you haven't seen this series yet or this season or the finale, no problem. It's safe to proceed. We'll keep this pretty big picture. general interest, and we'll stay away from spoilers until the very last question and answer, which we will warn you about. This episode is brought to by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and make it a mess.

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Well, in the second season of Twisted Metal, the great Anthony Kerrigan plays Calypso, the enigmatic architect of the titular tournament, but the real-life Calypso, the behind-the-camera Calypso, who helped get the TV version of the tournament off the ground, is showrunner and writer Michael Jonathan Smith. You might know Michael from his,

his work on all six seasons of Cobra Chi, but I hope you'll also come to know him, if you haven't already, from his work on Twisted Metal. Michael, welcome, and congrats on completing the second season. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. You know, in the finale, there's a pre-apocalypse scene where Calypso pitches NBC on a vehicular combat reality show called Twisted Metal. It doesn't go great for him. No. the pitch crashes and burns, much like the competitors in Twisted Metal.

Were you drawing on your history, your past? Did your pitch go better than his? I guess so, because you got the green light. You know what's funny? The pitch with Peacock went awesome. The pitch with NBC couldn't have gone better. The pitch with other places went not as great because it actually happened during the pandemic.

And there was a lot of conversations which I pulled from where it was out of, this seems very expensive. And you want to do this with cars? But we're very lucky to have partnered with Peacock who totally, like, from day one, because they read the script, and when I pitched it to them, I pitched them,

like, here's the season, here's season one, here's where season two will go, and they, like, totally got it. So I feel very blessed that they, like, totally get what we want to do. Yeah, I want to ask you, in general terms, about the budget, this season, especially. But also, I was going to ask about the structure of the first two seasons.

I assumed that you had both in mind when you were pitching this. And we were just talking about this before you came on. You kept your powder dry in season one. You showed some restraint in saving the tournament for the second season. The Halo show didn't go to Halo in season one. The Mortal Kombat reboot kept people waiting for the actual Mortal Kombat. And you took the calculated risk of setting up the tournament for season two. even though probably people are expecting that right out of the gate.

And I think that that pays off down the road, the literal road, because we actually care about the characters by the time they're competing. But you never know how it's going to go, how season one will be received, if you'll even get a second season. So take me through that decision to structure the first two seasons the way you did. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think like a lot of that decision was, you know, Red Reese and Paul Wernick, who had the original take and brought me on to take,

take that take and show run it. Their vision was to very much, like, it's about a guy who picks up a package, drops it off, comes back. That was very much their original take for it. And for me, when I took that over and structured the season, the reason I wasn't like threw that out and was like, no, we're doing a tournament to hell with you guys,

was I knew that if you go to a network and say, we want to do a humongous big budget tournament, that's just going to scare people off. Like a lot of these networks, they care about character, they care about establishing these things. And for me, I was like, let's establish this world. Let's establish these stakes.

Let's get people excited. And for me, I knew that, look, it is a huge risk. But if we can capture what I really wanted to adapt in Twisted Metal was the feeling, because I played the game growing up, Swiss Metal Black was my OG. And what I wanted to capture was the feeling of playing the game. That feeling of blowing up your best friend, driving through the record, getting that last minute missile. like I just want to capture the fun and excitement and like irreverence of the game.

And I was like, if we can at least like get that car battle into the show, into the first season as much as possible and really like lead up to it, I think we can like get the fans excited to like, okay, yes, I know the first season doesn't have a tournament. But next season, if you liked this world and like the characters, now imagine all of them showing up at the tournament. And I think that did pay off. And then we were able to say to, you know, Peacock, okay, we've established this world.

now we want to go bigger and they were like so in. They were like, okay, yes, we have to go bigger. And what excited me about the first season was so much like, what if the entire world was the tournament? What if you go around a corner and anyone could blow you up? And I think that was just like the biggest selling point for me. Yeah, I was curious about that too. So when you get to season two and you've built up to this crescendo of combat,

is there a part of you that almost feels some regret because you've established this expansive world and all this lore and all the world building you've done. And not that that gets thrown out the window, but there is a more self-contained tournament and more of a formulaic, you know, a structure, kind of a challenge of the week, you know, round of the week structure to the back half of the season at least. So I wonder whether there was a part of you that was relieved maybe because, hey, there's sort of a preset structure now. It's like, you know, another round, right? What is this going to look like? And the stakes are built into it because, of course, you could get killed at any time. And some characters do, which we can discuss.

But yeah, how did that change your approach as a writer and a storyteller? I think it was so exciting to be like, okay, now that we've established this world, what is this tournament, this is the first tournament in this world, what does it look like in the established world? And we were able to kind of, I structured this season very specifically where it's like, okay, the first couple episodes are about, we get a little bit of like from season one where it's like, okay, they're on the road. We get to establish some of the new dynamics

between John and his sister, quiet and a new character mayhem. We wanted to reestablish some of that. We introduced Axel. So we kind of get a little bit of that on the road vibe. And then once we get into the tournament, it was really fun to kind of approach, like, okay, what is this new structure?

And it was exciting to kind of change the structure coming from season one, because I didn't want to feel like, they're just doing season one again. It was really fun to kind of take a new approach and to kind of have a new, a new kind of what is the structure going to be now that they're in the tournament and how do we make sure that the tournament doesn't feel boring where it's just like okay every episode is just going

to have the same okay we're throwing all the cars into a round how do we approach it and we tried to make it feel like what would our video game look like how do we have each round feel specific and different and what are the rules and stakes of each round so that it just made every episode feel a little bit exciting and fun so in one way the focus narrows a little bit at least in terms of setting, but in another way, the scope expands in terms of your cast. So it becomes a real ensemble series, and you somehow have to juggle all of these characters who we come to care about over the course of the season, some of whom just start as kind of cookie-cutter villain antagonist, and then we get to know them and sympathize with them,

at least some of them, to some of the series. So, you know, you have 12 episodes to work with, which in this era feels like a lot, Insoothing, I guess, even though they're half hours. But how do you then apportion all of this time to all of these characters and make sure that you're serving all of them still keeping the spotlight on the stars? But introducing some characters who weren't even in season one and making them major prominent characters in the second season. And that's such a great question.

I mean, I think for me, the way we approach the storyline is it's always focused on John and Quine. It's always about the relationship. Where is the relationship starting? where is it ending? Where are they in this moment? And so much of the season is about, like, okay, what do you do when two people want two different things?

They're coming to the tournament with two different kind of wants because John is a very different approach to the tournament than quiet. So that is always going to be our backbone as John in Quiet. And then when you're approaching it with an ensemble, it was so much fun because we had such an amazing cast of these absolutely hilarious people. You know what I mean? And the way we structured it was very much like, okay, we want to make sure that what characters are going to best help the storyline for John and Quiet.

Who are we going to kill off? And then who do we make sure is going to get that moment? We want to make sure that every character kind of gets a great big moment in each of these episodes. And usually if they're going to die, we try to make sure that those characters get that spotlight. And it was really just fun to kind of rotate everyone in based on who best kind of mirrors or best, you know, kind of highlights John and Quiet's storyline. So it's always kind of about taking, you know, Anthony Mac and Stephanie Beatrice's, like, role in the story and then just kind of boosting that with our amazing cast of characters. And it was really fun to kind of take the world building and look at, you know, vermin and kind of think of who are these fun insane people and what will make them crazy. And I'll just say, I did the vermin voice all the time in the writer's group.

It's just the most fun voice to do. But it's just, I felt so lucky having these amazing cast. Yeah, but then you have to kill your darlings at some point. And as a viewer, you're completely conscious of that because this is essentially a fight to the death, more or less. And so you're thinking in the back of your mind, are they going to go there, right? Which is, you know, sometimes if the only emotional stake is, will this character live or die, then maybe that almost feels artificial or something. But there's more to it here because you get invested in these characters and you're also aware that they can't all win this tournament and they certainly can't all survive this tournament. And that there are going to be some victims here whom we actually care about.

Now, I'm hoping that some people who are listening to this haven't seen the series or the season yet. And so we don't necessarily have to spoil individual deaths. But I wonder which new characters perhaps you came to care about most or as you were weighing who lives and dies. How was that weighing on you? And how many characters were you willing to sacrifice knowing that you're hopefully laying the groundwork? for future seasons. It's hard because you don't want to hold back in a show like this. People are coming into it.

And if you feel like you're cheap in it, it's just going to make people be like, well, what are the stakes? And it doesn't really matter. And so we really tried to make it feel like, at least for the most part, you really feel like, oh, my God, I can't believe they went for it.

You know what I mean? And I think the hardest one is Axel. I think Axel is just, when you meet him, I mean, he's a fan favorite from the games. He's one of my favorite characters. And I think after Sweet Dude, he's the character that the people are just like, how the hell are they going to do this? And if you're unfamiliar with Axel, he is a man stuck between two gigantic wheels.

And we did it practically, which is awesome. So I think, you know, you really want to make, I think for all these characters, whether they're big, small, a fan favorite, or a newcomer, we really try to approach it like, you want to care about all these characters that every death kind of matters in a different way. like Berman's another one that, you know, we want to make this character funny. We want to make this character exciting,

and it's fun to see them interact with, you know, quiet and Raven. And when that character dies or doesn't die, we want to make the stakes matter because you're just like, no, I can't believe that person has to go or not go. So it's tough for all of them, but you do have to kind of, these people have to go. Otherwise, it's just going to be like, great,

they're all standing around in a room. And, you know, there has to be a winner at the end of this thing. It's just about making sure that the deaths matter at the end of that. Yeah, and some of them hit quite hard, I must say. And you know, you had a huge ensemble to choose from from the games, and you've played them so you know. I wonder whether there was a big board you were choosing from ranking characters because, you know, you've created original characters yourself. And then you have some fan favorites who just have to be there, I guess, your your axles and your grims and sweet tooth, of course, who was a staple in season one. wonder how difficult was it to winnow that down and say these these are the ones we're going

with so difficult i mean i think for it we treated it like if this was our lost twisted metal game who would be the roster and we tried to think of it like okay if you're choosing your character and what's funny is that we actually had a scene that we cut where there were outsiders that chose their characters so we actually had to choose your character scene that we cut because it was just like we have to lose this scene but we really really tried to imagine it like if this was, if this roster was a game and you saw the grid, how would it feel?

How would each character feel different enough? So we really spent a lot of time thinking about making sure each character looked different enough in costume that like their game or their bit felt specific enough and that they didn't overlap too much. And like I tasked every writer to come in like

come in with one or two characters that you would pitch from the games and one or two characters that you would create. So there was a lot of fun that people coming up with characters and Frostbite was one that a writer created. We really came close to having a Zanita, Meeter Made be one that we talked a lot about. I saw a lot of ideas for Zanita and pitches on that,

but it felt really close to like Raven. And there were a lot of characters from season one we wanted to bring back, but it just felt like, like I'll just say, like Bloody Mary was someone we talked a lot about bringing back, but it felt like John and Clyde are already dealing so much with Raven, and it felt like Bloody Mary and Raven, And there was so much overlap in terms of like their history. And look, I read a lot of the comments online.

They're like, why didn't you do this character? Why didn't you do that character? Of course, yeah. There's a deep roster that, you know, we want to keep this show going as long as possible. And I think if you watch the end of the season, I think if you look at the roster, it's pretty clear who we're imagining to bring back for the following season. So I think, you know, it's really exciting to think about who could come back in the future. Yeah, that's always something I think about with video game adaptations,

that balance between being overly faithful, being. an overly cavalier with the source material. You don't want it all to be Easter eggs and callbacks and winks because there are people watching the series who probably never played a twisted metal game. And to some extent, those references are lost on them, perhaps. And I've played Twisted Metal. I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of Twisted Metal. And so I would see some things in the second season and say, I wonder if that's from the game.

That's got to be from the game. Refresh my memory. Look at the Twisted Metal Wiki. It often was from the game. So if you're in the no, then you're, recognize that, you appreciate it, but you don't want to integrate those things, I assume, in a way that makes the series any less accessible or makes it seem as if you're gatekeeping or excluding people who just haven't had that background in the series, because it's been a while

since the last Twisted Metal Game, unfortunately. Exactly. I think that is 100% the balance. It's like you have to, my goal is it has to be accessible for everybody. It has to be a story that everyone will love and be riveted by and laugh at, be enjoying. And, and, and, and, and like pump your fist. Like the goal is to have fun and to have a big, goofy, dumb smile on your face at all times. And if you are a super fan, if you're encyclopedic, like you said, that is exactly the goal.

I want you to like, later on a Caprio meme at the screen and be like, yes, I caught that reference. Like, we go so deep on the references for those fans, but it shouldn't, like, dictate the story because I think that's when you get into trouble. Because if you get caught up on that side of it, I think that's when adaptations, in my opinion, get into trouble.

And I think that's when they become, like, homework. Because then you're just like, oh, I'm like so lost and I don't care about the characters. I think you have to just, it has to be character first. It has to be story first. And in the case of our show, comedy first. And then you can enjoy, have the fun of like, oh, now I really want to play the game.

And then when you play the game, you're just like, oh, my God, look at how deep they went. And like, you know, there's character that is a deep cut from four that it's like, if you like the games, you'll be like, I can't believe they included this character. And I just want this to be a love letter to the fans in that regard. But otherwise, you should just be able to have fun and like watch it with your partner and just enjoy the storyline and the rhyme and not have to feel like, you know. And TV's, movies, video games, these are different mediums with their own respective strengths. And sometimes I feel like if you try to mirror it too closely, then it. it almost becomes pandering. You're watching the Doom movie, and suddenly you're in first-person mode. And it's not the same because it's not interactive.

But sometimes in a video game adaptation, there will be a sequence that captures that excitement of playing the game so faithfully that I can feel myself wanting to play. You know, I'm sitting in the theater watching the Mario movie and my fingers are twitching, you know? I want to be controlling this character. And there were moments in the second season of Twisted Metal, when you're just, you know, vehicles crashing into each other, missiles flying, fire, flames,

where it's just the sense memories that really brought me back to playing games like Twisted Metal in that genre. And I just, what do we have to do to bring back vehicular combat as a genre? Can this show, not that the series doesn't suffice, but whether it is a new Twisted Metal installment or just a revival of that type of game, there's, I think there's still room for that. I would love that. I mean, that's the kind of, I love those games.

There's so much fun and they're so exciting. And like there is nothing quite like loading your car up with missiles. And like I picked up, you know, I replayed Twist Middle Black for season one because they were like, oh, we want you to do some promo and play the game with the cast. And I was like, oh, God, I haven't played this game. It's so long. I'm going to need to play. Or else I'm going to get doused.

Yeah, I look back. And I was playing. game and I was just like, God, it really is, there's nothing quite like playing twisted metal. It really is so much fun and just remembering all the secrets, like, especially in black where you're like, oh, you blow up the Ferris wheel, the Ferris wheel drives through the town. And it's just so, the chaos is just so, like, addictive and fun. And I think that is just what we, and I'm really appreciate that you said that you felt that watching the show, because that is what we really tried to capture is just, it's,

Not, I mean, a game like that is really, it's really tough to adapt because the storylines in the backstores. Your storyline is what you play, right? And I think we really tried to just capture the feeling of what you feel playing it and the joy of it. And that is just like, there's nothing quite like it, is that adrenaline. And I think, especially in the finale, which just came out, you know, while the day we're talking, we're talking today, not to date this. It's just really trying to capture that hard pounding feel. Yeah. So about the budget, not that I expected this, by sight,

specific figures here, but regardless of how generous Peacock was, I assume there wasn't a blank check and you have to destroy so much stuff here, how do you capture it and really convey that carnage and mayhem, but also economize somehow and how much of this is practical versus CG? How do you bring this tournament to life visually? I mean, I'll say we had, we definitely got more money in season two than season one. Look, I'm happy that we got any money. to be honest, to do this thing. And my goal was to do everything practical or as practical as possible. So all those cars are practical. The only stuff that is through 100% CG for the most part is the motorcycle, like grim. There's a few shots that's just like 100% grim,

especially in the ending. There's a few things that we just had to do CG grim. But most of the cars are practical parts. So we really had to budget it. I think our episode 11 took us like 29 calendar days to shoot in a practical space. The other big sequence, which is episode five and going into six, also took us a long period of time to shoot multiple weekends, multiple days, multiple weeks. The way we budgeted it, I can't share the like specific number. I'll just say it's not as much as fallout.

We are, look, we're, we're a half-hour comedy at the end of the day. We're probably one of the most expensive half-hour comedies, but, you know, we don't have like a blank chip. And I'll just say that like, Pecotte is still extremely generous for what they do give us. But we have to budget carefully and we have to budget very smart. I may have given my line producer a... He said this is the hardest show he's ever worked on.

It's a really difficult show to do. But we were on budget this season, maybe a little underbite. And the way we did it is we really tried to, like, I paced out where the stunts are. And that's why, look, there are some episodes where we don't have car action, and that's where we're saving our money is to do that. That's why we have a bunch of episodes in the school. Hand-to-hand combat.

Yeah. Hand-to-hand combat. And look, some people are like, where's the cars? And I'm like, that's why we were able to do a lightning round. I mean, like the lightning run in 10 and 11, and 5 and 6 is a big thing. I'll just say this too. Like, originally episode 5 and 6 was originally one episode. It was all in 5.

And episode 6 was a big dinner scene. A whole other episode where it was like dinner and a bunch of, and they'm arriving at the school. That was originally one other episode. And what we ended up doing was we threw out all of episode 6 and cut episode 5 and And by doing that, we saved a ton of money and maybe saved the show. And it's a lot of finding those balances of like, okay, episode one has that huge, awesome action sequence at the end of one. And then two, we saved a ton of money keeping everything intents, which was mostly

all the stuff inside tents. That was on our stages. And then we were on location for a lot of other stuff. And then, you know, episode three, we went bigger and we were on location. Episode four, we're inside. So it was a lot of balancing a lot of that stuff in order to make sure that five, we could go absolutely huge and do all of that stuff practically so that we were able to do the other half of five is inside one location that we were able to control. But that's also difficult because we, that had our biggest cast.

I was talking with our line producer and he was like, it was actually really smart that we did everything big at five and then we slowly killed all our cast off. Five was maybe our most difficult episode. And then 11 was actually a lot easier even though it's like our maybe our most act. And I'll say this about the explosions. A ton of our explosions are practical. Almost all of them are practical. One of our biggest explosions at the end was so big that I saw the Toronto subreddit was like, felt it.

They were like, did you feel that explosion? I think his name is Danny. He was in charge of our safety. And he said he set off more explosions in the three months of our production that he did in the past decade of his 30-year career. So we were like, we really did try to do as much as practical as possible because that's what I love. Yeah, kudos to the effects people.

Kudos to the stunt performers. Kudos to the people who make sure that nobody blew up for real while you were making this. Oh, yeah. That's always a concern. But, no, it looks like you pulled out all the stops when you needed to and that no expense was spared, even if some expenses probably were spared behind the seeds. But I wanted to ask about, you know, you mentioned it's a half hour comedy. You know what the show is.

And it can be many things. And I appreciate the tone. It's just a mixture. of comedy and drama and romance and world building and lore. And sometimes I'll see a show that feels like it should be a half hour comedy, but it reaches for that 45-minute, hour-long, prestige space, and it just feels kind of miscast. And I feel like Twisted Metal has always kind of known what it is and what it should be

and where it thrives, which is not to suggest that you pick a single lane, but at its heart, this is silly, it's funny, it's slapstick, it's absurd, with a heart. So I wonder whether you ever feel yourself going too far in one direction or another, and you rain it in and you say, oh, we're getting too self-serious here. This is twisted metal. Remember what this is. Or we're getting too silly. We have to have some emotional stakes here. We have to have some character development and real relationship. So how have you perfected that tone, if that's not too high a compliment? How has that tone evolved over the course of the series? Oh, that's such a great question. I mean, I think coming out of season one, I feel like, you know, I looked at season one, and, you know, it's funny. I actually had a conversation with one of the showrunners from Kopra Kai, one of my former bosses, and he was just like, what I love about your show is there's a character that lights his head on fire. Of course.

Of course, which is great. That's one of the best parts about the show. And coming out from that, I thought a lot about that. And I was like, I'm very proud of season one, but I really wanted to improve the show coming out of season one. What I love about season one is the storylines. I love the character stuff. I love the world building. and I love, like, the action for what we had,

but I wanted to improve it. And the thing I wanted to improve the most was the comedy coming from character. And I feel like season one was a lot of like, oh, we made things funny by adding, like, swears. And we had some good jokes, but I think, like, a lot of the comedy was just more dialogue-driven. And this season, I wanted to make it more from character and situation and really improve the comedy in that regard.

And I think I really tried to drill down on what made Twist and Metal Twist and Metal. I wanted to really push us to be like, We are the show that has a character that lights his head on fire and his best friend is a paper bag. And I think when we lean into what is silly about our show, that's when it really is successful. And especially when there's a lot of other shows out there that are video game shows, we need to stand apart more this season. And I think that is where we really landed the tone. And I appreciate you saying, too, that like we know what we are.

And I think this season, especially, we were like, let's pace things up. let's not make us, like, the episodes are 30 minutes or less. We have a few that are longer, but it's like, there's so much going on. It's like, we can't help it. But I really try to not be a show that's like, we're not going to go like 45 minutes. It's like, we're going to be 35 minutes, 30 minutes, 207 minutes. It's like, leave them wanting more. And for me, it's, we can't be a show that's, if you start getting depressed because

things are so serious, it's like, that's not our show. We are not the apocalypse show. That's like a bummer. That's just not who we are. And I think the balance. of the tone is like things happen. I love when the show gets heartwarming and I'm really pleased that like, spoiler if you haven't seen it, an episode that people loved was like our prom episode. And I think that really says a lot that people were like, it's a show that has no, next to no action.

It's really character stuff. It's really heartwarming character stuff. And I think that's a silly episode. And for me, the balance is like, I love, I love writing the heartwarming stuff. I love getting you invested in these characters, ripping the rug out with the well-time joke. And I think that is, the prime episode is so emblematic of what I love about twisted metal, where Phillipsot tricks everyone to go into prom. There is a slow dance where every character is having the heart of it. And that moment, I'll call up a slow dance because that is like totally what I love to ride, which is I'm bringing you on this journey of, oh my God, I'm like feeling for these characters.

Oh my God, it's so silly they're playing hacky sack. Oh my God, Axel has this relationship with another character. oh, it's sweet tooth. Oh, my God, he sees everyone as paper bags. This is insane. Like, you're really riding that tone where if it gets to saccharin, I try to undercut it with comedy. If it gets to comedic, I try to bring you back into the heart.

And at the end of the day, it's like, it really is just making sure that we just go super far and make sure that it's like, this is twisted metal. It should be crazy and insane and bad shit, while at the same time, like, you have to care about these characters, and there has to be stakes at all times. Otherwise, there's no weight to any of it,

and it just feels like we're throwing things at the wall. And in the writer's room, I was constantly, like, push, push, push, push. And if it got too sad, it's too much. If it gets to, like, this is just wacky, and we're just being insane for the sake of being insane. It all has to be, like, motivated. Yeah. And you're spoiled with this incredible cast and versatile performers

who can deliver all of that. Anthony, both Anthony and Stephanie and the voice of Willarnett. And, you know, these people who can pivot from action hero to slapstick comedy, you know, self-effacing, self-deprecating to romantic leading man and can do all of those things depending on what the scene or the episode calls for. So I could talk to you about this longer, but I should wind down. And so now that you built up to the tournament in season two, and now you lay some groundwork for season three. Hopefully there's some post-credit scenes. We don't have to divulge all the details and specifics.

But how do you top the tournament? If that was how you top season one, well, now you've done that. You've blown that load. So now what's in store for season three, where it's John and Quiet versus the world? Yeah, I mean, should we talk spoilers now? Is that okay? I mean, let's do it for the last answer. Yeah, go ahead.

Yeah, I mean, I, so I'll just say like, this big spoiler for season three is, is the idea that, you know, there's a war. And Calypso is essentially pitting the insiders versus the outsiders against each other and that John Inquiet has been blamed for this war that these insiders got killed. And John Inquieter blamed for it. A bunch of insiders were killed at the tournament. and they're blamed. And now that The Insiders and NotSor is going to be fighting in a war, and now John and Quiet are going to try to kill Calypso in this war-torn world. I'll just say this was my idea from the very beginning.

This is how I wanted to – this is where I was going. And to me, I was like, how do we – how do we top a tournament? Because I didn't want us to just be like, okay, now we're going to do another tournament next season and just feel like we're just repeating ourselves because I think that's just not – You know, I watch a lot of tournament shows, and I want to make sure that, you know, it doesn't just feel like, you know, I want up the sticks.

And to me, one idea was the idea that I like the idea that dull face and quiet wanted an even playing field between the insiders and outsiders. And what is more of an even playing field than a battlefield? And that was where it started. So that was the impetus for, you know, that was the germination of this idea. And to me, what's exciting about this possibility going to season three is not just that it's a war, but I think this is very much like another tournament for Calypso.

That to him is like, now it's insiders versus outsiders, city versus city. And I think it's just like now we're kind of going back to what the original germination of season one was, which is like now you're like kind of going around and like there's a battle around every corner. And I'm very much inspired by like that moves about 1917. with little children of men sprinkled in of like, what's it like for these two to try to get through this? Are they going to find allies? Are they going to, now they have a target on their back,

who's going to be after them? So I think there's a lot of possibilities of what this could mean and how the stakes are going to be kind of rising even more for them in this war-torn world. A lot of characters can come in, a lot of new characters, and obviously there's the big question of John's sister. Not to spoil even more. I hope everyone's watched it at this point.

But I think there's a lot of, of exciting possibilities for season three, and I have, you know, ideas beyond that as well. So I will say. Yeah. If it were me, I think I'd require more proof from Calypso before I agreed to enter this tournament, you know, proof that you can grant any wish before I risk my neck here. But desperate times call for desperate measures, I suppose. So I'm glad that the tournament came together both in universe and on the screen.

I want to watch more. So I hope you get to make more. good luck keeping those budgets in check. Thank you, Michael. Thank you, Ben. I appreciate it. Great talking to you. All right, we went from MGS to MJS.

And now, just as we must in Snake Eater, we face the end. Thanks to Matt, Stephen Michael, for joining me today. Thanks to Devin Romalo for producing this podcast. Thanks to our Juno Ramgapal for his senior podcast management. You can contact us at Ringiverse Gaming at gmail.com. Stay tuned for Ringiverse Recommend and coverage of peacemaker and comics. Alien Earth and Buffy, and so many more video games. Talk to you soon.

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