The Ringer-Verse - Midnight Court: '80s vs. '90s Animated Series With Guest Judge Seth Green! | Midnight Boys

Episode Date: September 3, 2026

The Boys return to Midnight Court, and this time they’re debating which era of animated shows had the biggest cultural impact: the '80s or the '90s? It’s Van vs. everyone in this trial of wills, and here to decide which team gave the best argument is special guest judge and cartoon expert Seth Green. (1:14) Intro (2:25) Opening statements (9:09) Cross-examination (53:58) Closing statements (1:07:57) Verdict (1:16:00) Interview with Seth Hosts: Van Lathan, Charles Holmes, Jomi Adeniran, and Steve AhlmanGuest: Seth GreenProducers: Devon Baroldi and Jamie YukichAdditional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On today's show, The Midnight Boys become Midnight Toons. In honor of the 25th anniversary of adults, the Ring of Verse is settling one of the most contentious debates of our time. What is the greatest air of cartoons? The 80s or the 90s? Mr. Lathen claims the 80s is the peak of the art form, while Mr. Holmes, Mr. Dineran, and Mr. Allman seek to defend the supremacy of the 90s. It's mutant turtles against animal maniacs,

Sponges versus robots in disguise. This is Midnight Court. I'll rise for the Honorable Seth Green. Yeah, rise. Yes. Thanks, guys. I actually appreciate. No, no, no, no, no.

Please be seated. Thank you. Thank you all. Thank you all for gathering today. I believe it is my duty this afternoon to supervise a debate between both sides about which is the greatest era of cartoons. It's the 80s versus the 90s. I have been privileged enough to experience both of those in real time, shocking reality.

But I really want to hear. I have opinions, obviously, but I'm open to being influenced by your opinions. Call it to order. I would like to point out that it was my understanding that we were talking about. talking about television cartoons here today. Yes, yes, yes. I'm sorry, I should have been clear with my specification. Hereby, we're going to introduce a debate between the television cartoons of the 1980s and the television cartoons of the 1990s, and hereby we are engaged.

Correct. First of all, Honorable Seth Green, we would like to thank you for your contributions to this medium and for coming on the Midnight Boys to serve as the guest. I think that both me and my opposing counsel here are all very happy to have you sitting down here. I'm assuming that this means that I am leading off in opening statements. I mean, you've taken the floor, but just to say that, thank you. It is my privilege. Okay, so greatness has a definition. It's the quality or state of being exceptional in size, skill, achievement, power, or importance. Opening statements with a definition,

always a clutch move. So, again, exceptional and size, skill, achievement. power and importance. What do I take that to mean as it relates to today's debate over the 80s cartoons, which are fantastic, and the 90s cartoons, which are fantastic. Three things I break this down to. Variety. Staying power. It means how long did these cartoons last in our hearts and lore. Size, skill, power, and importance. Depth of story. Depth of story. Depth of story. means impact. Impact means obsession. Obsession means staying power. Which characters have endured, which characters are the engines of other lore, which characters have inspired, which characters have grounded, which characters have deepened, which characters have stayed around with people

in the back of their minds to such a degree that inspired them to create not only their own worlds, but some of the worlds that we operate in. Which characters are we longing? to see again. And when we see them again, when we touch them again, when we are around them again, how comfortable and emotional do we feel

when they're back? When you hear, I have the power. When you hear Thundercats, oh, G.I. Joe, real Americans, when you hear that, what did Shira mean to a generation of young girls?

What does Kawabunga mean? You had never heard of, before. The world may never know. But you heard it in 1987. Who do you want to hang out with? Michael Angelo. Who do you want to be your leader? Leonardo. Goes up and down with the 80s and what

these cartoons were able to do not just to entertain a generation of children, but to inspire a generation of creatives, to create lore that was so deep, impactful, and meaningful that we are still to this very day experience.

flooring it. I am not going to try to in this conversation in any way contend with the variety of what happened in the 90s and the explosion of cartoons that were around in that decade. But what I will say is those sons have fathers and their dads are in the 80s. All of those cartoons, that entire boom, come. from this understanding that kids needed a place to vacation where they felt safe, and that was in the 80s

television cartoon, boom, and era. That's my opening statement. Thank you very much. Opposing counsel, would you care to make your opening statements? Yes. Also, I just need to note that it took, it's going to take three to represent the 90s. This is the 90s crew.

Three is three to one. Yeah. Let's hear it. All right. Good morning, Your Honor, Mr. Lathen, midnight mob, midnight writers. Before we begin, I'd like to take you on a journey. Those moments we woke up on a sweet Saturday morning, the energy, the expectation of when you would run home after school. These are times of wonder, of freedom, of imagination.

Who among us knew that 24 frames per second could change the world? The question laid before us today is simple. What is the greatest era of cartoons? Van Lathen, Mr. Lathen over there alleges that it's the 80s. We will be arguing about the 90s. But what I want us all to remember is that this is not a versus. We're discussing art, a medium. the same medium that changed my life.

So please let's refrain from digging our heels too deep in the mud and making this a Jordan versus LeBron conversation. No, this is much, much higher. Today, my colleagues and I are representing 10 of the greatest cartoons of all time, The Simpsons, Batman, the animated series, SpongeBob, X-Men, Pokemon, the list goes on and on. And through these 10 shows, we're not just telling the story of a decade.

But illustrating the peak, of an entire art form. The 80s was the time of cultural and economic decadence and its children's programming followed suit. Now, if this was an argument about selling plastic and the best commercials, I think Mr. Lathen over there would have a case. But today, when we talk about the 90s,

we're talking about a promise made good. An explosion of art and ambition. The Disney Renaissance happening in the United States, happening in the multiplexes, the birth of dedicated children's programming like Cartoon Network, Nickelodeon, the rise of adult and teen animation on MTV and the Fox Network. See, animation is a continuum. Yes, or maybe the fathers born in the 80s. But I think every good father wants his sons to run further, to fly farther than they ever could.

Today, my colleagues and I will cover three main points. Mr. Deneron here will talk about the commercial impact of the 90s. Mr. Alman over here will talk about the lasting influence, and I will speak about the form. So I ask you, let's not get lost in nostalgia, people. Let's not turn this into generational warfare. I want us all here to remember the lessons. that these cartoons taught us when we ran home. It's about teamwork.

It is about community. It is about the future. And with that, those are our opening statements. Excellent. We are going to have an exciting debate. This is going to get really good. So it seems that we would simply open the floor to a debate. we engage each other in a spirited Q&A?

Um, question. I noticed in your, uh, opening argument that you mentioned the Simpsons. What year did the Simpsons debut on television? I mean, I could tell you the exact date, December 17th, 1989. Okay. So let's say that I understand that the Simpsons is more of a 90s cartoon. Mm-hmm. two weeks is not going to make The Simpsons in the 80s, right?

It's not going to. It will tell you, though, that the Simpsons debuted on the Tracy O'Mon show, even before they debuted on television. So that's a little bit deeper into the 80s. What I would ask, not just you, but the audience watching is consider the time in which the Simpsons was conceptualized, not the time in which the Simpsons actually aired on television. Think about the creation of the Simpsons. Think about a show like that that has its boon in the 90s. What is causing someone like the creative team behind the Simpsons

to use animation to tell that story in that way to an audience? It is the explosion of animation that they are seeing. It is the variety of animation that's happening in the 80s. It is the fact that they are affected. Their minds are being changed and programmed by the most vast group of animated characters that we had seen on screen ever. So in my argument is that the reason why the 80s is so important is because the groundwork for what was laid in the 90s,

all of the variety, and we're going to talk about some of the reasons why some of these cartoons haven't quite endured as much as the cartoons in the 80s, and we're talking about that. But animation as a medium that could touch everyone, that you could tell a more adult story like The Simpsons on television, on network television, on Fox, which is a network that was fledgling at that time, that needed programming like The Simpsons. That starts in the 80s. Even your heroes are made from a time where cartoons become really, really serious business and start to dominate culture in the way that they hadn't before.

So that is very interesting. Yes. was, did the Simpsons debut in, what, the final weeks of the 80s? Yes. But I will make a contention that we talk about the peak of the Simpsons and what they did for comedy and what they did for the world. That's 90s domination. But you know what?

I don't think I need to totally make that point because we actually have an expert witness. Our colleague, Alan Siegel, who wrote a New York Times bestseller on The Simpsons that released last year, actually has a statement for us. In the back, can we play our expert witness, Alan Siegel, and talk about the domination of The Simpsons in the 90s? People ask me all the time, what makes The Simpsons so great? The best way I can explain it is it changed the way we think about the world. So here's a good example.

A couple of months ago, Curry Barker, the guy who directed Obsession, said he was inspired to write the movie by the Treehouse of Horror segment, The Monkey's Paw. Now, not the 120-year-old short story The Monkey's Paw, but the segment from a Simpsons episode that came out in 1991. That's years before Curry Barker was even born, but it warmed its way into his brain, and that's what The Simpsons does. Now, it doesn't really explain the show's influence,

so to do that, you've got to go back to the 80s. Now, this debate is about 80s cartoons versus 90s cartoons, and this will help explain that. So in the 80s, TV animation was kind of a backwater. It was cartoons made to sell breakfast cereal and action figures. Hey, I love Transformers. I love Team Man. I love G.I. Joe.

But those were made to sell toys. It's the truth. When The Simpsons came along in the early 90s, it completely changed animation. It completely legitimized the medium. And it directly led to all these amazing shows. You had Renan Stimpy. You had South Park.

You had Rugrats. You had Futurama. You had King of the Hill. And you had Family Guy. Those shows would not exist without The Simpsons. and the Simpsons for that reason and many other reasons is the best show of all time

and you cannot sway me otherwise. Mr. Latham? Yeah, I don't know you, speaking about the years or the epoch per se. He's just talking about the quality of the programming itself. But I would say the domination that happened with the Simpsons did not happen in 89. It happened in the 90s.

It defined the 90s. I feel like the peak of the Simpsons is in the mid to late 90s, and you can talk, if you read some of the writing about it, they say they were inspired by other cartoons in the 90s, like Batman the Animity Series, and things of that nature. I somehow feel like you guys are arguing a point that I acquiesced. No one that has any objectivity is going to argue that The Simpsons is not a creation of the 90s.

The Simpsons is part of what defined 90s culture. That is absolutely true. My case for the 80s is that the inception of even what you are naming. Yes. Of what happened in the 90s is based upon a cement foundation of what was going on in the 1980s. That what you were talking about right now, The Simpsons, is an 80s creation that found its cultural footing in the 90s. It is an 80s creation. Somebody decide to endeavor into animation because of the explosion.

because of a group and generation of kids who were educated on animation and the depth of animation in the 1980s. I'm not going to argue about even the variety of some of the more adult animation that we saw in the 90s. All of that stuff is it matters. It's around. It's a part of what the 90s became. My argument is greatness. And greatness to me is what endures, what lasts, and what moves on. that for animation, that has started in the 1980s for me.

And what I would argue is that are we talking about the start of something? Because yes, everything has a history, everything comes from somewhere. But if we look at, let's say something like Batman, the animated series. Now, when you look at not what that just did for cartoons, but for DC Comics, for live action, we could talk about Harley Quinn, We could talk about the Matt Reeves Batman. We could talk about the fact that these creators that, yes, grew up on cartoons that were coming out in the 60s, 70s, and 80s are using all of that influence and are saying, we are going to create cartoons that just aren't kids programming, that just isn't for commercials. These are things that can fundamentally change not only how we view cartoons, but how so many of these characters are remembered far, far in the future.

I let's cut the shit okay at this point in time when we're talking about oh I don't know something like SpongeBob rugrats X-Men Pokemon Dragon Ball Z we are opening up cartoons to a global fucking fan base all right? Dragon Ball Z premiered when when did Dragon Ball Z come out if we're talking about when did Dragon Ball Z premiere in the United States no no no no no no I'm asking when was Dragon Ball Z created? Answer the question. Well, Dragon Ball Z was created in the 80s. Yeah. Thank you. Dragon Ball Z

has Japan premiere April 26, 1989. So when... And when... Can we ask you this? When did that get ported over to the United? Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. When did that get April 1989? Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Can I finish making my point? Finish? Okay. That

leans into my point. My point is that Dragon Ball Z in its inception, when people are thinking, I want to make something cool. I want that cool thing to comport and talk about all of these themes. I'm going to do it in an animated way. Dragon Ball Z drops in the 80s. The 80s is when all of these people were having the ideas of how they could tell animated stories. So when did Batman animated series did you? SpongeBob, Rugrats, X-Men, Dario. Charles. Charles. Charles. I didn't interrupt you.

I didn't interrupt you. Now let me get to everything that you're talking about. Let's take Batman for itself. as its own example. So Batman is a very important cartoon, and so is the X-Men cartoon. Like, Batman is a very important cartoon, so is the X-Men cartoon. Very important cartoons, right? Very important cartoons.

I think what I'm talking about in the 80s, when I look at some of the cartoons that I'm talking about, I'm talking about lore that exists on its own. Batman had been adapted and readapted in comic books since the 1930s. The X-Men were characters that came out in 1963, or 1964, whatever it was. The X-Men had also been in animation

before the 90s, right? But when I'm looking at the characters that I'm talking about in the 80s, I'm also talking about how unique these characters are, meaning the fact that these characters have their own lore, that He-Man has his own lore that exists and deepens his world in the 80s. Okay.

That the Thundercats have their own lore. They are a universe. The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles are a universe. Like these other characters that we're talking about, we're not talking about reimagininges of characters. We're not talking about updates of characters. We're not talking about characters that we've always seen the Justice League or Superman or anything like that.

We're talking about worlds that were established in the 80s that could have their own conventions. We're talking about worlds that were established in the 80s that have their own people that are as furries. We're talking about one to pet a care bear. We're talking about Voltron. We're talking about things that in and of themselves exist in a deep, deep, deep universe

with their own lore, with their own backstores, with their own stuff. And versatile merchandising. It's critical, guys. So many scoes. I think, Mr. Deneron, could you maybe talk about the commercial impact of some characters that have their own lore?

Like, I don't know, SpongeBob. Well, I mean, SpongeBob, Pokemon. Rugrats, we could sit here all day and talk about how these shows, not only, like, because what I understand what Counselor Lathen is trying to pitch to us, right? However, you do understand that Transformers, He Man, Thundercats, we're all there just to sell toys, right? All these conventions were there because they had action figures.

They want to sell these to kids. You make the cartoons that sell the action figures to kids. That's the whole pipeline. Now, that's not to say that. Are you condemning that process? is ill gotten or somehow deceptive? All I'm saying is that's the truth, right? That's not to say that the cartoons of the 90s.

Does the intent somehow weaken the effect of the execution? With Ted versus Impact? Of course not. Of course not, Your Honor. What I'm saying is... Yes, I bought all of those toys. What I'm in? What I'm saying, Your Honor, is that the 90s cartoons not only did the thing where you make all the money

by man, the Rugrats Orange VHS tapes. The Simpsons T-shirts, brother. You couldn't go anywhere without seeing SpongeBob in the 90s, my friend. It was everywhere. Okay, Batman, the anime. Like, these are things that encapsulated a whole generation,

right, with not only merchandise but with story storytelling. And that's what I mean. Right? These things, these cartoons came out of a need to tell stories, not to sell merchandise. How much money has been made in the history of SpongeBob merchandising.

I mean, here's the thing. Okay, just do you guys know, no, no, do you guys know my personal receipts? Do you guys know the, the number? How much money has been made? I imagine. $16 billion. So $16 billion have been made off Spongeball merchandising. There's no such thing as a children's cartoon that doesn't sell merchandise.

No such thing. It is almost arbitrary whether or not the car, the merchandising comes before the cartoon or after the cartoon. It doesn't really matter. I would like it like and so and but let me before you. Okay. Before you interject counsel, which I did not like before you interject, let me tell you why I don't think that it matters. Because in all of these things that we're talking about, what we remember is story. That's all we remember. What we remember is why Skeletor wants eternity. What we remember is how He-Man and Shira are related. What we remember is where the power

comes from from He-Man. Why the Voltron must form. What we always remember, we never remember toys. We remember story. When you say He-Man, people are going to say, by the power of Grey-Sull, I have the power. They're going to remember the incantation that He-Man must use to transform from Adam into He-Man. They are going to remember story. And it doesn't matter if that story is invented so that you buy Castle Gracecold. Castle Grace School must have its lore.

I'm not taking anything away from SpongeBob SquarePants and what SpongeBob Square Pants is meant. I'm not taking that away at all. But what I'm saying is to bring up a property that has sold $16 billion worth of merchandise as an example that it's not. not there to sell merchandise does not make any sense. But what's interesting to me is that you keep bringing up story and lore and how deep you can get

is a bunch of catchphrases. Because when I think of something like Batman the animated series, I think of the Mask of the Fantasim. I think about a cartoon that was on the big screen that is quite literally pushing not only that character forward, but what we thought animation can be for an entire generation. When I think of just, Dragon Ball Z. I am thinking of coming home, the Tsunami block, watching fucking Vegeta die sacrifice himself. It's funny when you keep...

Spoiler alert. It's very funny when you keep bringing up, well, oh, these stories don't have the depth of Thundercats, the TV show that I love. I find that very hard to believe, but... Mr. Allman, can you maybe talk about the influence, especially of some of these team programming? some of these TV shows that were far more adept

at really, really pushing what we knew this could be. Yes, I think it's very easy for us to push aside any sort of commercial value for either one of these immaculate decades for animation and really look at a elevated and heightened cultural relevance that came from the 90s. Not only was there a bellwether of incredible shows that pushed the envelope both commercially and critically, but there's also a idea that permeated in the 90s

that these creatives were almost hijacking the airwaves of our television sets to give us something so unconventional and so groundbreaking and bleeding edge that some networks didn't even know what to do with them. I think of the heightened MTV eras bringing us

Darya, something not, while also culturally relevant, relevant to a million other creators that came after them. Liquid television as well, yes. The earliest days of Adult Swim, giving us such high-concept television shows at Space Ghost Coast Coast, an amazing send-up of the late-night talk show. But we don't even need to go there.

We can simply look to the hardware. Things that brought home incredible amounts of awards and a critical acclaim, such as South Park, such as, oh, I don't know how many Batman the Animated Series, have. I know that Garfield won a few in the 80s, but it's really something that got really cooking in the 90s. That I think

when I think that when you can easily see the cultural influence that came from the 80s was ultimately perfected in the 90s. You may be our fathers, but we went to the leak. What a fascinating. I just love that you dragged Garfield.

Yeah, it's like, hey, drop you. Two-time, daytime Emmy winners, all right? I'm not getting to the credit, Garfield do. We agreed before this, Mr. Lathen, that we would have a top ten. Can you please list your top ten Aedes? No, no, no, no, no. Can I just continue to engage? So, what a fascinating appeal to authority? What a, what a fascinating?

No, no, hold on for a second. From somebody with some hardware, by the way. I mean, if you want to talk about Academy Awards, But like, what a fascinating appeal to authority. We are in a court of law, by the way. This is nothing but an appeal to authority. I'm appealing to the people. Look, power is cool.

Even he man said so. So, like, I find an appeal to authority fascinating in the realm of cartoons. Like, in the realm of cartoons, I'll tell you why. There is no authority that can encapsulate what it feels like to spend time. with your friends that are animated on television. There's, can I please finish? There's no authority that can encapsulate what it feels like to sit down with a cartoon, right?

And be in a world with your friends, and you're there, and it's babysitting you. It's helping raise you. It's giving you a message. You are connecting to the medium. It's forming the ideas in your brain. I couldn't care less how many Emmys everything won. I know that that's important.

I don't care how many Emmys, how many late, I don't give a flying fuck about that. What I care about is that there was a generation of young people and children that was inspired by worlds that they could not put their fingers and hands on that were demonstrated to them on television. And when did that start for them? How did that start for them? And are they still connected to those characters,

now because you can talk about Darya or you can talk about Beavis and Butthead characters that are really important but that are flashpoint examples of a time fixed in the 90s and then you can talk about He-Man or the Thundercats or Voltron or these relentless eternal worlds that people keep going back to and I can go further if you want me to if you want to talk about my top 10 if you want to talk about the care bears, if you want to talk about all different types of people with different types of law, with different types of language that make people feel in different ways, right? So I just let you guys know, I think about all the Emmys that everybody won for everything that they were doing. I'm going to say one thing.

I don't give a fuck. But I couldn't care about language. You keep talking about shows that are everlasting. Mr. Lathen, how much did the human? he-man movie make, please. Oh, it made $17. No, it made $17. Yeah, it made $17. Okay, can ask you a question?

Like, is it okay, since you want to bring that up? But we must follow up on the streaming view. What of Amazon Prime Number. You're talking about how I'm not asking these characters are, and it seems like they're kind of on their last legs. Okay. Well, I'll just let you know that live action movies that are based on toys in the 80s have made.

nearly $8 billion. How many of that's Transformers? A lot of it is Transformers, but that doesn't mean anything. What that means is that the Transformers themselves had a deep enough lore to continue things into the 2000s.

So if you want to have a conversation, I was not going to bring that up, I figured you guys might, but if you want to have a conversation about how these characters have transitioned into live action, I'm not saying right now that the He-Man movie

didn't come too late. I'm not saying that that's not a 2006 movie or a 2010 movie rather than a 2026 movie because now the movie is for you guys when it shouldn't have been. But what I will say is that to have those movies in live action

and to put them on the screen for worldwide audiences, we don't have to ask whether or not it's worked. It has worked and it's worked over and over it again and it's worked for huge, huge box office returns and made stars. Stars that your generation has watched.

But here's the thing. We don't have to talk about live action. Mr. Lathen, uh, did you support the latest Thundercats animated show? Very good. That came out on Cartoon Network. I did watch it? Did you, but here's the thing. Did you support it?

Did we talk about it on the Midnight Boys? Did you, you keep saying how everlasting all of these things are, but it seems like that show got canceled for the exact reason that you're saying about us, oh, it's live action. Oh, it's this. No, it's that. If all of these TV shows were as iconic. and influential, as you would say, why aren't the boomers over there?

I'll only interject that TV's so complicated. I mean, the residents didn't get a second season. You know what I mean? So, I mean, that's like almost a non-argument. But I'm looking at, I'm looking at The Simpsons. I'm looking at SpongeBob. I'm looking at Rugrats. I'm looking at, oh, X-Men 97,

we covered that on the Midnight Boys. I'm looking at Pokemon. Well, we covered, no, we covered, by the way, we covered X-Men 97 on the Midnight Boys, and we should just say that you hated it. So, so, so if we're going to talk about. Is this is my opinion, my critical opinion?

Hold on, hold on, hold on. We're going to need a sidebar about this X-Men 97 opinion. You don't want to get into it. We don't have time. But I'll say this though. So asking, hold on, hold on, just real quick. So asking whether or not I enjoyed or supported a Thundercats cartoon,

which every Thundercats cartoon that's come out, that's come out, I've watched it, right? Asking whether or not I've enjoyed or supported it because it hasn't been on the Midnight Boys is a weird argument. especially since you mentioned X-Men as a part of 90s animation that you loved and you have done nothing on this podcast for two different seasons of X-Men 97

except shit on it, which is a revival... Is X-Men 97 a 90-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha? Hey, hey, it's called X-Men 90-fucking 7. Okay? And it's called X-Men. So it's called X-Men 97. So apparently, you don't like the X-Men cartoon from the 90s and X-Men 97,

as much as you say, think that you do. But I'm glad that you brought up this place. Because all of us have jobs talking about lore stuff, right? All of us have jobs talking about lore stuff. We all have jobs talking about it. I'm going to use a different exhibit. And the exhibit is this. It says, I wasn't a comic book scholar as a kid.

I knew of them, but most of my knowledge of the Marvel characters came from the 80s anime series and pop culture. Who do you think said that? Richard Nixon. Yes. He was the first to say it. That was Kevin Feigy. Okay.

Who said that. Kevin Feigy said that a lot of his, and he goes on to say just how much of this medium, just how much of all of this lore that the 80s cartoons solidify for him. So you guys don't exist as the Midnight Boys without this era. You're simply not here. Because without the Marvel Cinematic Universe, this podcast doesn't exist. And all three of you know it. So the reason that you are sitting here talking to me,

the reason that you were in Vanity Fair, the reason that you're Joe Me the explainer, that you're Chuck, that you're Steve, that I'm me, the reason Seth is here, the reason the set exists, the reason all of it by a guy who put it together is because he was inspired to be deep into these characters and to these worlds by stuff that he watched in cartoons in the 80s. He said that I didn't.

What a boomer take where you keep, your main argument is that you guys should kiss the rain. That's not what I said. Are we talking about, hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on.

Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. I want to make sure that you guys can hear what I'm saying. You brought up, you brought up the lasting legacy of any of this stuff.

And you brought it up to say that I don't watch the Thundercats, right? And so my retort to that is not only do I watch the Thundercats. It was you and your ilk to watch the Thundercats. Not only did you watch one of the cartoons that you said you love that you fucking hate now, but I'm also saying that the legacy of all of that time lives on in stuff like this. I couldn't care less whether or not Kevin Feigy likes this stuff or doesn't like this stuff. What I'm telling you is that my point is that this era of television is so singularly important with what it did to expand

everybody's mind. It's more important than the 90s? Yes. It's not more varied. It's not deeper, but it's more important. So you're on a lot of 80s children's programming was higher than the 90s. I like them better, but that doesn't matter.

But I ask you a question. Well, the simple question in its clarity is what is the greatest era of cartoons? 80s versus 90s. So it's obviously open to interpret it. And his argument is that the 80s is the greatest because it came first. It came first. No.

Well, more if I understand it. Well, we get into that later. Yeah. Why don't we open it up to you, Your Honor? Why don't you, uh... I don't know, guys, I watched all this shit. Like, it was... It was great.

And I was so young watching TV that I saw like the really fucked up stuff coming out of the end of the 70s. Yeah. Because they was still putting that on the UHF and really. running like they were like we i don't know we we put this in front of our kids what does it do to your brain and it was just so experimental and strange and so yeah i got to uh uh grow up in an era where all of the animated programming came post the Reagan administration's decision decision to loosen the FCC rule that allowed entire programming to exist around something that would have a product so there used to be an FCC regulation against that

And then they were like, nah, fuck it. Let's make an entire show about this gavel and call it Gavie. And then everyone will watch this episode of Gavie and be able to buy all of the toys. And literally, you're correct. Everything came from a consumer intent. But I don't think that lessens the goal of any of the creators, right? Because a lot of creators were putting out stuff that they were like, I don't know, is this a fucking toy?

And then plenty of people were like, yeah, what if it was a story about these guys? You know what I mean? So I don't even know how to, approach this debate from a decision-making standpoint because each one of these eras provided so much valuable programming, so much consistent inspiration. And do you punish the later Renaissance masters because they learned from all of the experiments of the early Impressionists? Like, everybody goes to look at the Mona Lisa and they're like, what is this? It's so little. It's so shitty. And of course, that's not.

meaningful, the piece itself is almost unimportant. It's the fact that this was the very first time that somebody was like, all right, it's a portrait, but out the window, there's a landscape. And everybody was, what? A landscape and a portrait in the same image? What? You can fucking do that? And so from there, everybody's making landscape portraits.

They're putting, like, people in large situations. It's not just portraiture. And as a result, the Mona Lisa becomes one of the most important pieces in art history. just because somebody tried something so experimental. I don't know that it, it's like, do you punish the creation of everything inspired by the Mona Lisa because it was not the inspiration itself? Can you say the Mona Lisa is one of the greatest art pieces of all time?

Or does it simply represent such a critical moment for the art world as a whole that it will always be a classic? I'll answer this question. So I'll tell you, I'll answer this question. This is the way I look at this. Okay. Let's say... More of a statement, but it is a debate.

But let's say you bring in... Let's take this to hip-hop. Let's say you bring in a record, right? And the record is the first time somebody used the 80A. Or it's the first time you heard it. First time somebody put the drum is on there or whatever. But the record sucks. The record is still important because it's the first time you heard this technology.

My thing is, what if you bring in the first time somebody ever used the 808 and the record is amazing? Then it has two things going forward. Number one, the composition of the Mona Lisa is phenomenal. Like the composition, it as a piece of art is phenomenal. It is also pushing art forward generations, right? But the composition of it is phenomenal. they're cartoons that go back before the Flintstones. We could talk about cartoons. Everything has

but when I'm talking about are cartoons to me that are both phenomenal in scope and story, maybe not in animation, like phenomenal and scope and story, but also insanely influential to one of the most important groups of creators ever. Because a lot of the cartoons that you guys are talking about, they were created in the 80s.

This was a time when this was just 80. No, that's right. That's a good point. That's a good point. Okay. So let's use your hip-hop analogy. Okay. One of the first examples of, like, rap that, like, really escaped pop culture. Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five, right?

Well, the first examples of rap, that's a, okay. Like, like, like, cool. Okay. This is, what, 1989? Or not, yeah, like late, late 80s or 90s? Like via Blondie. There was a moment where Blondie was like, hey, guys. white America rap is a thing

he's talking about the message it's before it's much before 1989 like a breakthrough yeah like a breakthrough exactly right and then like that's when people are like yo people can really like rap like this oh my gosh this is like this is crazy then you come back like

mid mid 90s you get erickeem mid 90s early 90s yeah but like you just go ahead and do it yeah you know what I'm trying to say yeah why are you doing this to me because because the timeline matter. The time lines, but you're right, you're right.

Yeah, because, but go ahead. Go ahead. Would you, like, even though, like, we know Grand Master Flash for Fears 5, that is, like, extremely important to hip-hop. Would you now go back and say that Eric B. Rakeem, what they were doing was not transformative, was not magical, and that you would put Grand Master Flash in a level above Eric B. Rekin because they came first?

I love this that you went here. First of all your dates are messed up, but that's okay. I'm, I'm, you know. So, so your dates are messed up, but that's okay. I love that you did this. Rakim is exactly what I'm talking about. Rakim is exactly what I'm talking about. Because Rakim, to me, is the Marlon Brando of rap.

Marlon Brando, as an actor, is the guy. He didn't do this by himself, but he represented the break between, ah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, until a more method sort of approach to acting that changed up, that led to Nicholson. and Hoffman and all of these guys from the Strasbourg school the stuff that came right after him, right?

And changed the way movies are created. Rakim is that for hip-hop. But if you were making the top five list right now, a top-10 list, people wouldn't put him on it. People wouldn't put him on it because the people that came behind him, the J-Zs and the people like that, have built on what he did

and taken the art form to a place where they won all the Grammys and they sold all the records and they did all of that. But the fact that you bring up Rakim, who legitimately to me, to me, other people will say it's Kooji Rap, other people would say it's different people,

is the architect of modern rap. His place in this particular game and hip hop cannot be clouded or shrouded by nobody to me because he legitimately, to me, changed the way people rap and something else. He remains right now.

No matter who you put on a mic that started rapping after him, one of the single, nicest motherfuckers that you've ever heard before in your life. So if you listen to lyrics or fury, if you listen to some of the stuff that came out after that, if you listen to guess who's back, if you listen to so much different rock Kim shit, your favorite guy who sold 10 million records and run all the Grammys and all the stuff that matters, he'll outwrapped him right now.

And I'm arguing that that's the 90s. And I will say if we get out of, you know, being so incendiary, inflammatory, whatever, I do agree with you. I love cartoons. And if you ask any of the animators, the storyboard artists, directors who came up during the 90s, they will obviously gush about what was happening in the 60s, the 70s, and 80s. And I agree. It is so, so, so important.

The future is mashup. Yes. It's so important to honor the architects. But if we right now are making a list of not just the greatest era, but the greatest cartoon, of all time. I would argue that there are so many on this list that would easily be in the top five because it takes great architects to build a foundation and then you see your kids and your sons and your daughters run and push a medium forward and take something that people thought was childish and only for kids and to say like, no, we are going to expand through this art

what you think a cartoon can be. That's not a cartoon. just the Simpsons, that's not just Batman the animated series. We respect the 80s, you know? We respect the Carabairs, the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, the Transformers. But I don't think that we can have an honest conversation without

being quite honest. That narratively, what these heroes were pushing just in how they were drawing, how they were storyboarding, how they were taking stuff where it's like, oh, this is a narrative that's going to follow episode one, episode two,

So three, we do have to bring that in the conversation. And that's not to denigrate the 80s. That's just to say, like, hey, every art form is going to progress. And the 90s is where the peak is. I don't agree. And so this is the crux of the argument. The crux of the argument is, while I do agree that there's more variety and more production value in the cartoons from the 90s, I don't think that they're that much better.

I legitimately don't. I think that a lot of times they're more daring. They look better. There's different things, but as far as like what I get from them, I don't think they're that much better. Don't you think that's nostalgia, though? It doesn't matter whether or not it's nostalgia or not. I think it matters very much so. Well, no, because you have nostalgia.

Yes. This is your stuff. So when you're telling me right now that like you look at all of these, all of these things from the 90s, you're talking to me from nostalgia. See, a lot of people think that nostalgia is only the oldest thing. Nostalgia is your thing. So when you're talking to me about 90s cartoons, you're talking to me about nostalgia. You're looking at this.

And it's interesting that we haven't really taught that much about nostalgia. Like we went to other things that, you know, like what the Television Academy and all of these people thought. But you're talking to me with nostalgia. Okay. And so, like, what I'm saying is that doesn't matter. I am saying I legitimately like the Thundercats more than Rugrats. I like it better.

Like, I'm saying that I legitimately, legitimately like the Transformers more than SpongeBob Squarepants. I like it better. Just a question, though. I apologize for interrupting. Sure. But do you think that that's connected

to what was new in your own timeline? I saw something really interesting happen, right? Because I grew up in the era of brand newness of Star Wars. So like I got to see the first Star Wars in the theater. I was like a baby

and my parents brought me to see the first Star Wars. And so that always had a deep connection for me. Everything came out. in real time. My parents were like, this fucking Star Wars, right? And I got to experience it. So when the next generation of Star Wars was coming out, all of the advertising, it targeted that legacy of nostalgia, that everyone's like, you remember how this could go. You remember what this feels like, to love these characters, to get in this universe, to share it with

your kids, right? But the kids didn't have the same access portal because their experience was defined by the permanent existence of all of these icons and ideas, right? So kids born into the prequel era were like handed down Star Wars as something that forever existed. And some of the generation got into it, was able to take it as their own. But I saw something totally different happen when like Guardians of the Galaxy came out. And all of a sudden a brand new generation of not just kids, but also parents or experiencing something for the first time.

So just to make this point, I feel like it's important to the debate to just acknowledge that what you experience as a kid is forever going to be the thing that you beat your chest about because it's what helped you gain your perspective on the world to come. It shaped the way that you receive these kinds of things. And I don't know that we can realistically determine a greatest era when the one you experience in real time with your friends and other people that helps you sort of understand, oh, I think these things. I feel this way. This is what I find funny. These are the things that I care about.

It happens in real time in your generation with all of the media that's put in front of you. And it's what you and your friends choose to share and sort of. fallen best friend love about, right? I worry that we won't be able to authentically determine because the greatness of it is almost held by the beholder. So I actually agree,

but this is what I'll say, this is what I'll say to Star Wars and to what we're talking about. I'll say that Luke has actually tried the non-nistalgia rap, right? He like literally tried it, right? In the 90s. He tried it.

in Phantom Minas, right? He tried to non-nostalgia, he tried to give you more elevated what he thought was political and stuff. By that time, he couldn't execute it, right? The other stories, there's something about the first three stories that is simpler,

therefore I don't want to say that it's better, but it's more digestible. So even what we're talking about, which is the idea that something is better just because it's more expansive, I will always push back. Something is good to me because how,

it makes you feel and how long it lasts. And that is what I'm judging this on. Just like sex, am I right guys? Like how long something lasts how it makes you feel? That is why I fuck with AIDS. But I would, if we're

using that criteria, how something makes you feel and how long it lasts, I would argue a lot of the cartoons that we're talking about have lasted longer. Well, no. I mean, been relevant longer. Well, I mean, it's tough, right?

Because then you get into conversations about like the really, the really older stuff, like stuff like stuff that came to the U.S., like Starblazers or Battle the Planets, like stuff that was in Japan for years before that. The thing about the 80s that were so interesting is it was a like, I don't fucking know, kind of era, right? And so a lot of people were just putting up shots like maybe this is a thing. the story of any of those like original

Japanese animation shows is how the format of American distributors being like, well, let's just get a license for this and they completely change it. Let's chop it up. Let's make these guys this. Not animation, but like Power Rangers. They just didn't have any translators.

So they were like, I don't know, maybe these guys are bad guys. And they sort of wrote a new story about it. You're right. That did really be. become the whole Sabon era of Power Rangers. I don't know, but I still love those shows. Those things that I learned from watching OG Voltron and especially like Robotech, those lessons, I learned them almost too young, right?

It was such a sophisticated, emotional. It didn't cater to the idea that you're a kid and that you wouldn't understand it. It's more like, you get this, you're a fucking kid. Right? Because kids are so adaptable. Like, okay, that's the message. That's your OS is overwritten so quickly, right? It's almost dangerous.

Can I just break a character for a minute? As a creator of robot chicken, how do you delineate the eras? Because you guys lampooned stuff from the 70s, from the 80s, from the 90s. And obviously you grew up in the 80s, so you'll have that. Well, I did. I had this weird thing of like growing up in the 80s and the 90s. Like I was 16 years old when I moved to L.A., and that was 1991. and Seoul, or maybe 1990.

But it was, I had like a secondary teenage evolution, like went to school out here, had friend groups out here with a prom in L.A. You know what I mean? It was a very weird duality, but I got to experience both sides of it. And also I never felt, like it took me a second to find my literal peers

because the shit that I wanted to talk about in the 80s, there was very limited access to other people that shared that view. was mostly like, the fuck are you talking about? I love Batman. I love Batman. You got to understand the Fantastic Four. It's so creating.

And the family dynamic, stop it. With Robot Chicken, the biggest thing that we're conscious of is just knowing that we're not the sum total of experience, especially with pop culture. And that's really what we think robot is, is like your relationship with pop culture in whatever era it is. And sometimes we can apply more screen time to something that we know more people are like asking about. but a lot of times we love just putting four or six seconds at something that one guy is like was that the fucking thing from

the Carvel in East Jersey we're like that was why would you make that we're like this for you dude that's for you it's my favorite thing for whoever got it yeah there's somebody

there's somebody but you know it's like we can't put more than three seconds into this guy's right so here's the thing we will be arguing all day judge Seth we want to talk more about robot chicken so you do have to make a decision Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you make your decision, and then we'll get into more of the less contentious part of this episode.

Well, I want to give my final... Right, right. This should we should get in the closing statements. And this is why I feel this way. Just to introduce the debate, I have to say, because what we're really talking about is greatness and what is the definition of greatness, right? Like, especially you can apply this to almost any field, professional boxing, right? I look at someone like Mike Tyson is one of the greatest fighters of all time,

but I was also living through his era. So I got to see him as a young fighter with all of his complicated circumstance. I got to see him raw and young and sort of un, like so few people had taken advantage of him the way that people would come to like just come at him. And so to me he's one of the greatest fighters of all time. But then I look at footage of Ali and even like casual footage interviews, him at like the Oscars. And it's I can't, it's hard to argue. So what we're talking about is greatness and what would define the ultimate perception

of the greatest era of cartoons, the 80s versus the 90s. Here we are. So I'm going to tell you how I view these cartoons and stuff like this. And this is the part where there is nostalgia that's definitely in it, right? So if you think about the characters

that are discussed here, obviously ingenuity matters, lore matters, all of that stuff is important. But the thing that makes these cartoons endure to me is because the question is answered which of these characters

do you want to be your friends? Like which of these worlds do you want to hang out in with these characters as your pals? Do you want to hang out with Michelangelo? Do you want to pet a care bear? How awesome would it be to fight alongside Liono? Go on an adventure with He-Man.

Hang out with the ducktails. like adopt a pound puppy, all of those cartoons that we had in the 80s, they were made for a different time. You did not live through the 80s. You survived to them, right? It was a world and a time before the world was disinfected. And when you see that the world was disinfected, it becomes the beginning of something very distinct, this freedom to create, which I applaud, this freedom to be daring, which I applaud, this use of the medium in a different way, which I I applaud. But what I will say is that it also got fragmented.

It was adventure cartoons for their adventure kids. There was more adult cartoons for their adult people. There were more, there were cartoons that were Daria and Beavis and Butthead, you brought those cartoons up. Those cartoons were more aimed at me, somebody who was born in 1980, but like Beavis and Butthead were a sense of rebellion for me. Then Darya comes from that and all of that stuff. Eon Flux, all of the stuff, all of that stuff I watched.

It all mattered. it to me was much more of its time than the stories, the lore, the characters, and the kingdoms that were really birthed out of the cartoons in the 80s. And not just that, the talent came from it. So if you're saying the best, the best era of cartoons, the greatest. I'm making the distinction. If you're saying the best era of cartoons, the 90s, if you're saying the greatest, the greatest era of cartoons,

Great means, lasting influence, ingenuity, quality of art, all of that. I say that it is the 80s. Rest my case. Gentlemen. If we're talking about greatness, I think what's important is Mr. Lathen obviously brought up that without the 80s we would not be here.

But I think what is actually impressive about the 90s is the very thing that Mr. Lathen over there denigrates. It's the fact that with these cartoons it opened up a wide net. It's the fact that,

yes, in the previous decade, maybe the lines were more drawn. You were a nerd if you liked T-Man, teenage mutant Ninja Turtles, or if you couldn't put your X-Men action figures away. But I really think it's the 90s

why this show exists. Because it says two people. Hey, it doesn't matter if you're into SpongeBob or the Rugrats or Powerpuff Girls in Dexter's Laboratory or Daria and Beavis and Butthead. We are opening up this world to show all of us deep, deep, deep down, are nerds. And that's what I think the true measure of greatness is. It's the fact that saying, hey, instead of thinking that this is a small tribe that will never get bigger, hey, man, Simpsons might not be your thing, but I got something called Gundam. I have something called Dragon Ball Z. I have all of these other things. And if you can get all of

those people in the net, suddenly it's less you're a nerd, you're a nerd, and it's, we're all nerds. So when I think about greatness and what I think about the 90s, I think it's taking all of those decades that came before, not just the 80s, not just the 70s, not just the 60s. it's taking all the blood, the sweat, the tears, the fighting, that all of those animators, all those storyboard artists, and saying, hey, now that the leash is taken off, we're going to show you what we can actually do. And I think that that is something that we always need to celebrate

when we talk about animation. We have to celebrate the fact that, like, hey, all the architects that came before, they built such a solid foundation. We're going to get Buckwild. We're going to get fucking crazy. And we're going to show people that it is, just a small tribe anymore.

This is something global. I mean, spent a lot of time talking about greatness. You mean, lasting influence, size, skill, staying power, the whole thing. And allow me to, you know, piggyback off your sports metaphor, Your Honor. The 80s.

Which is hilarious because I'm not the sports guy. Very funny. We talk about the NBA, the 80s for the NBA. It's kind of like the 80s for animation, right? Bird and Magic, Transformers, G.I. Joe, E. Man, came and showed the world like, yo, this is something that has lasting influence. This will be here for a long time. Okay? This is not just a fad. It's not just a moment. These, this medium, this era of hoops, this era of cartoons is here to stay. But the 90s is where size, skill, staying power, and lasting influence were perfected. R. Michael Jordan, Spongeball, Batman, The Simpsons. We've gone this whole time, we haven't met your family guy, by the way, just something something about.

Adamaniacs. The 90s is where cartoons made their magic. Steve, take us home. Can you say that just real quick, you guys, I should be able to- This is our closing, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. We let you go. We let you go. Hold on, hold on.

Hold on, hold on. Hold on. Order. Please. Ladies, gentlemen. Order. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Order, you will have an opportunity for rebuttal.

Okay, cool. Because you guys have three. Order, please. Counselor proceed. I'll be quick, Your Honor. The things that indeed raise the creatives and the auteur's of the 90s owe a great service to the 80s. Truly, they do.

And it's the level at which they were allowed that level of expression, that level of ingenuity, that level of bravery to change formulas in such a way that the 90s brought in really makes a foundation upon a stronger foundation. And the things that brought everything out of the 2000s and the early 2010s, even today, the people that were raised on the. 80s we're now making the things that the 90s are produced. And yes, we owe a great debt to it. But the things that came out of this, both in critical acclaim and an ingenuity, come from the 90s. It's unimpeachable. We are not slaves to time and we are not slaves to the fucking boomers. So quick, so. Well, counsels that have you finished.

So, okay. Counselors, so quick, quick, just quick rebuttal. Because I didn't know that there were going to be three different closing arguments, right? Like, I thought one guy... Are we not a team? Well, no. Are we litigating? Can you ask you question?

Has there... Have we ever been in the court before? You're in the court. One guy is a... Hold on. Listen, listen. Have there ever been in a rebuttal to a closing statement? There's already a Kakeroo court.

I'm telling you, straight up. There's a whole... You already got your time. Listen, can I talk? There's a whole team of lawyers. There's a whole team of lawyers. And one person gives a closing statement. That's how that goes.

Well, I'm gonna respond directly. Why are you responding to a closing statement? I'm going to respond to a closing statement? I'm going to respond to a closing statement. gentleman. I knew he was going to speak about. I'm going to respond

directly to Jones. I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why. It's an equal time rule. I'll tell you why. That is a fucking horrible example. So in the 80s,

so in the 80s, so the 90s were better than the 80s for the NBA specifically on superficial levels. In the 90s, you had, in the 80s you had three different,

you had the Celtics, the Pistons, the Lakers, the Lakers, the 76ers, you had all-time greats exploding the league to a place that it's never gone to before. You had the ascension of Michael Jordan. You had Magic versus Bird. You had downright

culture that has almost not been matched in the NBA since. Versus the 90s, Mike? No, no, no, no, no. This is not the best of me's podcast. Okay. Versus the 90s and Mike? Can I finish? Can I allow it? Mike is. What? What are you talking to them?

But listen, but listen. You go sit here and tell me that the car, like, Joemy, Joe, no, no, no, hold on. Hold on. Joe, let's crash. We got into a second subject. Let me, let me finish, bro. I did not interrupt you while you were talking.

I did not interrupt you while you were talking. We're so far off course. So just listen. Let's just see where this goes. Like, the essential of Michael Jordan comes along, but it also comes along with this insane dominance. It also comes along with expense. When? Jummi, let me finish, bro.

The aftermarket on the sneakers. Listen, listen. Listen, it also comes along. It also comes along with expansion coming into the league. It also comes along with a different style of basketball. Like, Michael Jordan, if you look at Michael Jordan in the 80s, in the 90s, that was a less competitive decade of basketball with actually less guys that got to the mountaintop and to the peak.

This is an argument for Brown, by the way. But when I'm telling it's not an argument for Braun because everybody won championships on Brown's watch. But what I'm saying is, you compared 90s basketball to 80s basketball, I actually understand why y'all would like the 90s more. It's a place where the global market went crazy, where they were able to coalesce around one guy more than anything else, where you have worse basketball being played if you look at some of the Knicks and stuff like that. Look, I'm not getting into all of that.

But I would say that the same decade that gave you Dr. J. Bird, Magic, Michael Jordan, the bad boy Pistons, different styles of basketball from different places, fast breaking on the West Coast, beating your ass up in Detroit, the blue collar basketball you get from the Celtics, all of that stuff, that's better, that's a better decade.

That's a better decade of basketball. He's mostly, he's mostly saying he doesn't like your closing. This is shameless. No, I'm saying the closing argument is actually indicative of the argument that we're having right now. It's not, it's not, though. Because what you're looking at,

is you're looking at how shiny the toy is rather than the- But that's not true. When I ask you about, when I ask you about, when I ask you about, when I ask you about the 90s, you brought up Michael Jordan. But I know you know better. I actually disagree with this. No, you don't. I, one thousand percent do. We're talking about this all the time.

No, I talk about. Can we please get back to Congress? I actually disagree with you. I don't know. I don't know this is really fun. No. I'm what, I mean, I ever said that the 90s were better than 80s. Can we do.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, just give me one second. Because this feels like its own clip. We have it. It really is. We each on a podcast a couple of weeks ago, we spent like 15 minutes talk about the last dance and what that did to us. And even though it was this pandemic, phenomenal. Right.

And what Mike. The Julian styles movie? Say one. And what Mike meant in that moment, in real, in real time, right? In the 90s. You're going to sit here and tell me that, look, Mike, or not my, sorry, Magic and Burr Saveball, right? The 70s, it was bad. The drug use, all that.

We get to the 80s. That rivalry brought the NBA back. In 84, when David Stern takes over, like, that's the thing that they push. That's better to me than dominance by one player. I don't, that's it. But that's not what we're talking about, though. We're talking about when the league exploded. The league exploded in 92 when Mike and them went to Barcelona and blew up hoops.

Brother, technically, we're talking about the greatest era of cars. Because he's lying. I'm not lying. I know you're lying. Seriously, stop saying that. Like, I'm being all the way. No, I see it. No, he's simply saying that the original space jam was better than the new space jam.

Your honor, would you please? Gentlemen, gentlemen, gentlemen, this has been hilarious. This is what we do. Welcome to the Midnight Boys. Great, great, great. It is a really challenging question just in summary before we throw this to the poll. It is, do I render a decision before after the poll? But you could if you wish.

I don't really know. We're not going to... We're not doing a poll. We're not going to know what the poll. Oh, oh, fair enough. I genuinely don't know because I do believe that the context of the greatest is kind of defined by the beholders who get to experience it in real time. Like, we've done so much stuff on robot chicken through the years.

And the people that stuff, the stuff that people love the most is always something that they're either discovering. But like, that's the fucking craziest thing is how many people were like, I didn't know He-Man was a thing. And I love Skeletor now. And you're just like, what? That just feels so disruptive to what I would think your learning mechanisms would be. Like parents who told me that they showed their kids robot chicken Star Wars before they showed them real Star Wars. And I was like, does that fuck up the way that you think of Darth Vader?

Like when Darth Vader's coming out, you with a lightsaber, you're like, that guy's not scary. I saw him in a Christmas sweater on roller skates. And it doesn't seem to. like the comedic interpretation of it doesn't seem to color the interpretation of any of the sincere messages. That was the conversation that Jeff Johns and I had about the DC characters

when we set out to make Robot Chicken DC specials. He's like, because I said, what's on the table? What are we allowed to do? He's like, you do anything. We'll sort of know it when you see it if it's funny or not. But he said, you can't break these characters. These characters exist at such a weight

and gravity that regardless the interpretation, whatever the audience's first blush is with them, they love them because that's what those characters do. They inspire love. They inspire attention, right? And then you're captive for whatever story is being told around them. It's funny, like I talked to, I had this thought because I love Stephen King, and I started to see so many media interpretations of King that I had this realization.

It was like King is sort of the new Shakespeare, right? Like we can just see somebody else do the stand at some point. It's like a, it's a Western now, right? Stranger Things, Widows Bay, everything is through that filter. Right, right, right. So those formats really work the audience's appetite for new versions of these kinds of characters in a similar story that innovates in one way or another. That remains, like from the days of, you know, the greatest bards or raconteurs,

moving about around fires and telling people's stories, right? That's, I don't know how to, how to discern what is the greatest because I think what's most great is the fact that we, as a species, are addicted to this, that we want to share these stories and our celebration of great characters together. I love that the most, that that's what's persevered is whenever so bored or so, or so well-programmed that we're not looking for something new, something new that we can currently share together. But all along these same lines,

all along these same concepts and formats. I don't know, guys. Less about labels. You got to make a decision, you're on. Oh, yeah? Totally fair. Well, Well, you know, you'll judge.

Thanks, guys. Yeah, he's real. I do. I keep it really, really real. Yeah, this sucks. This sucks, Doc. Because I agree with everything that you've said, and also I really like, I feel you guys and kind of was in both of these eras. It's all great, is what he said. No, no, no, that's not fair. The toughest test of Seth's career. Right. It genuinely is, right? This is worse than accidentally handing out an Oscar for a holiday. La La Land. Well, if we're talking about greatness, right,

and the greatness that's consolidated in a period of time, I think it will come down to what is most remembered. And it's impossible to argue how all of the innovations of the 80s, all the creations of the 80s, all of the tools and mechanisms and, like, just the thought process, right? Like there was so much taking industrial things and commercial concepts and mashing it up with art in a way that was liberated by like Warhol's movement, Basquian, like all of these

other people who were like, art is, art can be something that is commercial, right? like art is the feeling that you get when you witness something. And that's why Warhol was obsessed with the idea of the Campbell Soup can. He said, what in post-war times, what represents greater stability than canned nutrition? And so just that iconic design, that was what he argued. Pop art is akin to Da Vinci. You could own this piece of commercial art, the borax soap box. He's like, this is a globally recognized image that inspires a feeling to a generation.

So don't hate me, guys. I have to say that the 80s was the greatest era of cartoons. And all things that came after that exist in their own unfolding greatness will forever owe a debt to this period of time that showed everybody. how to continue to innovate. It's why, like, the very first American Idol that I saw in the U.S. is probably the best example of that format, even though it was extracted

and elevated to greater commercial success. That idea of genuinely sourcing a talent from all over the nation before everybody was corrupted with, like, well, we don't want to make this person feel bad. Or everyone was like, God, it is really hilarious to watch these narcissists try when they just don't have the talent.

Right. The original contest where even Simon Cowell was like, what are we talking about, guys? We're not, this isn't a joke. We're going to put millions of dollars behind this person and are they going to sell tickets? Are they going to sell records? Like, all of that, it's foundational,

its foundations exist in that period of time. I know. I love all of these things. That's what's so hard. I love all this shit so much I made a fucking TV show about it. That's what the fuck with us. 20 years. What are we talking about?

I love all of this shit. Gentlemen, you've all made incredible cases. I'm sure I'm going to get fucking dragged. You won't. What do you want? I'm an elder statesman and I'm always going to be in the back. Well, thank you, Your Honor. Thank you, Your Honor.

Bang that gavel. I will. Thank you, gentlemen. This was an incredible debate, and I feel like it was a privilege to preside over it. You definitely was. All right. Before we leave,

we want to get into some robot chicken stuff before you go. Yeah, yeah. You don't mind. I'm just going to catch these Pokemon while we're talking, though. You play Pokemon Go? Don't fuck with me, guys. Wait, no, for real, what are you catching right now? What did I?

I haven't caught anything. I'll check what the auto catcher got there. Oh, okay. Y'all, are you all on this program? No, I'm surprised. None of you. Like, it's still shocking how many people are still playing. No, that's what's fun is like, it's,

first of all, it's the only thing in my life that's not work. Like, even all of my greatest passions got turned into a job. Really? When Westchab first took flight in 1996, the vibes were a bit different. People thought denim on denim was peak fashion. Inline skates were everywhere. And two out of three women rocked, the Rachel. While those things stayed in the 90s, one thing that hasn't is that fuzzy feeling you

get when WestJet welcomes you on board. Here's to WestJetting since 96. Travel back in time with us and actually travel with us at Westjet.com slash 30 years. Obviously, you're here. You guys just, Robot Chicken just released a special. Have you seen it? I have the 25th anniversary of the adult swim. Special, yeah. By first question for you is very, very simple. How do you start? Put it, because Robot Chicken puts its arms around cartoons of other decades. Obviously, that's what we've been talking about. How do you put your arms around the decade that you were a part of?

Well, for us, like, or at least I'll speak for me, but Matt, Matt and I were in lockstep about this. We talked about what we wanted. Because they came at us that were like, all right, we're going to do two specials. It's already been announced that we did a Cartoon Network special to come out next year and a wholly dedicated adult swim special. So we were privileged enough to be like on that, I mean, obviously riding on the shoulders of, you know, Michael O'Lean and Keith Crawford and Mike Lazo who sold this block of sort of renegade bullshit programming between 1130 at night and 6 a.m. on Sunday. They were like, do whatever you want. See if you can get commercials.

See if you can get any advertising dollars against it. We give you zero money was what they said. And so they did. They essentially clip art of existing animated stuff, properties that they owned and made like Space Ghost and Harvey Birdman, attorneyate law, like just created the weirdest most renegade shit. And then bought reruns of shows, right? Like that's why Family Guy wound up back on Fox. We were long canceled. And then Lazo bought the reruns of Family Guy, those first, we did 20.

but I think they only had the first like 13 or 14 of them. And they just ran the shit out of those. And it just got so much viewership that McFarlane called me and was like, hey, I know you guys pitched this week. Because we had made Robot Chicken as like a web episode, webisode stuff for dial-up internet. Okay, this is very early. Like 99, we made those first things.

Sony gave us a little bit of money. And they're like, what can you do with this? I'm like, I don't know. And we just all sort of figured it out. We're like, what's legal? And they were like, I don't know. And so we just made a bunch of really renegade shit. And then I tried to sell it a bunch of places.

We almost sold it to comedy. And then September 11th happened. And they're like, we're just not doing comedy right now. And we tried to sell it. I came at MTV at one point. We even showed it to SNL. Like, because we had these little shorts. And I was like, I don't know what the fuck this is.

But it's stop motion toys doing pop culture jokes. I swear this is a thing. And McFarland told me that Adult Swim was like buying stuff And so we wound up having a meeting with the people who've taken that over It was Lazzel and Keith And they were like, can you make Quarter hours of this? I was like, I don't know what a quarter hour is.

They're like, it's 15 minute programming. I was like, yeah, yeah, for sure. And they were like, could you do like 20 of them? We're like, yeah, fuck yeah, of course. And then we did. We just said about doing that. But it was a period of time where all of these other creators were having a similar experience, right? And Adult Swim was very intentional about getting us all together.

Did you guys know that you were created? Because when I was watching Adult Swim as a kid, I did not understand the humor until I got, it was like this alternative type of humor that is now all humor, like comedy is now. Did you feel like you are a part of something or is this like, no, a bunch of weird shit is just happening. We're doing our own thing. Well, I love comedy and I've been raised on it and studied it. for as long as I've been aware of those kinds of things. And so I was absolutely aware of the fact that there was a tonality shift.

But it happened through advertising all through the 90s, right? So the 80s were the end of the 70s, like intentional parental programming. And the 70s were a result of all of the drug experimentation in the 60s where they're like, oh, we've got to teach these kids about life. And so all the stuff that we got in the 80s was heavily PSAed and like, it's okay to cry. And if you pee in your pants, right, you're going to move past it. And also like, make sure you eat vegetables and don't cover your shit in sauce. Like, just real basic.

Don't get in white vans, like look both ways for like all just like trying to keep you upright. Turns out, creepers are just snatching kids. So like, watch out for creepers kids. Right. Yeah, yeah, that's the thing. So all of the hard lessons of the 80s got really actualized in the 90s. 90s, right? The 90s was the most latchkey era available. Like, parents were just like, I don't fucking know. Do it yourself.

And so all the, everybody, you're just on your own, right? And you're just on your own. The TV's the thing that's giving you information. MTV was at least straight shooters. Like, there was a point where MTV was the news and also all your sociological research. I remember when the real world came out. And it was post-Rodney King, like, like post-Rodney King. The OJ, no, real work came out before the OJ trial. But it was just like, we're going to put this Klansman in this room, in this apartment. You watched how real people were talking about it. Like, between music videos, we give you the rage about the shit.

And then it would be Kevin Powell, Kevin Powell, who went on to, like, run for Congress, fucking talking to that chick that was from, like, Idaho, like, two real people having a conversation about some shit getting mad and you're like, Jesus Christ. But it was before any of those commentators recognized the authority they had on camera. And so the original real world was so interesting because it was people just doing it. By the time they did the L.A. Real World, everybody had seen the New York Real World. And they're like, oh, I'm going to be this guy. Right. So by the time they got to San Francisco, Puck is like, I know how to be the villain on TV.

Right. Yeah. There's a performance to it. And that became instructive for somebody like Spencer Pratt, who's like, like, Like, I know how to be the villain on TV. So, I don't know. I've just watched this unfold era after era after era. And the same way with comedy. And so I said to Senai, like, in our first, when we showed up at Comic Con

and there was a room of 2,000 people that loved Robot Chicken, I was like, we got to really think about what we're fucking saying. That's my question. My question is this. So when I talk to other creatives and stuff like that, they always talk about the less. from what it is that they made. Doesn't matter what it is. The lesson, like, ask somebody,

what's the lesson from this? And it's sometimes a narrative lesson, but sometimes it's a life lesson for them. What's the lesson from Robot Chicken? Always follow the audience. The audience is the only thing that matters. Like, we're making it for us, but we have to be making something

that we believe is watchable and entertaining. And I got to make a movie and I had to cut it together. and there were all these things that I thought were like really important to say on film and and I called I'm lucky enough to know John Favreau

and be able to occasionally call him for advice aside from like hanging out socially but everyone's a while I'll call him with like real like how the fuck do I do this? Got the questions because he's such an accomplished adult and he's incredibly generous and he I told him that I loved Albert Brooks so much and he said oh because he

he posited like this he said there's incidents where you're going to make something for you and there's incidents where you're going to make something for them. You have to weigh the ratio of how much in your thing is for you versus how much is for them. And I was like, well, I've always loved like Albert Brooks, this kind of thing.

He goes, everything in Albert's movies is for them. Everything. Nothing for him. Like he'll say something, but it's for them. And I really, I think about that all the time. When we're cutting something, when we're putting something together, I'm like, is this just indulgent? or is an audience that both gets this and that doesn't get this,

get this, willing to receive it, right? So I'm always thinking about that. There's a couple jokes in this special to me that remind me of this, where you can see how large the shadow of like Rick and Morty Louvre. So there's like a joke about that or like even Tyler the Creator being on Loiter Squad, where there's a generation of kids who are like, Tyler Crater was on, like, it was on adult Twitter. That was amazing. So I feel like I met, I don't even know if he was 18 when we met, we met them all at the up fronts. And Lazzo was like, hey, these are the Lloyd's going because I was super excited to meet them.

Just because I was like a black sketch group and like doing very modern silly sketches. And then also the whole music component, you just have no idea what somebody is until you see all the shit. So I was really excited to meet these kids. All night I kept trying to like bro those kids and be like, hey, it was my man. And they were like, I don't fucking know. Like so much. And I realized it now. I was easily in my 30s and they,

I don't even know if they were 21 when they were doing it, right? And I think that all of, I remember being young and meeting adults and whenever the adult was like, so what's fucking cracking here, you know? I'm thinking like, I just don't want to fuck up and say anything right now. Right. So they all kind of cold-shouldered me at the uproats.

Oh, no. Yeah, it's all right. I moved past it. I'm glad you brought up Rick and Morty, actually, because like to see, like, to say it cast a shadow, it's like, it's the adult swim, show. Yeah, it is, but it's also, it's from a different moment, right? And like, we, I don't know, we talked a lot about what this special was going to be and what needed to have a presence in it.

And we went all over the place. Like, we almost did a Ken Burns style thing. There was like so many different points of access. And as soon as we zeroed in on a cruise, just how the hubris and the potential fallibility of a cruise, right? It was like, here it is. And so then it became about, like, who's on the cruise and what is the story or what's our story? And knowing that the villains were all going to get together and like, fuck it, let's have a villain plot, right? And then that not working and that turning into a disaster. And we were kind of convinced that we were going to flip the ship.

Everybody loves the Poseidon adventure. Somebody pitched the idea of Mike Tyson fighting Poseidon. And we were like, let's fucking do that of this guy, obviously. Since you're a scholar of this stuff, I do want to ask outside of Robot. chicken. We're at a point now where it's like, I think the explosion of comic books and the explosion of the stuff that was on robot chicken and adults, women stuff, people are like, is it over? Are people tired of this stuff? When you see Spider-Man or Batman or whatever, like, what are your thoughts of like, because we finally got so much of it? Yeah. Like, what do you think

the future of it is? It's interesting to see, right? Like, I think we'll always continue to innovate. There's obviously a lot of reflection and new tellings of old, very foundational properties. I think there's room for all of that. I don't expect that we're going to get the Ready Player 1 experience that we've all seemed to crave, right? Like, other side's not going to do it. It's maybe Fortnite. But the idea of being able to carry your skins into your Amazon online experience. I just don't think there's going to be such a mass adoption of VR in that way.

VR seems to be like the most effective in shared remote experiences, right? Where you can, the same way you play like Halo or something, where like everybody from all over the world is in the same space, whether you're watching a movie together, a TV show together, or you're like playing a game. I don't know. I feel like if we're just talking about, robot chicken, it feels like we've comfortably moved into a place where we could make two specials a year, right? And we could put out a half hour once a year.

The DC one, the Cartoon Network one. Well, just the way that we, there's so many, I love being able to really focus on a single property and tell a story within that. And even if it's just a lot of jokes around the universe, like we did with Star Wars, they all started folding into a narrative. So there's narrative all throughout it. That's, we kind of can't help. But we, we kind of can't help. want to tell stories in those universes. So to that end, we can make half hours about anything. Right. Let me ask you.

So, and this is my last question. As our generation continues to get a little bit older, right? I'm a baby exor, born in 1980. So as we continue to get older, and when you look, Charles brought up He-Man and the fact that he-man is not something that gets them excited at all, right? So as we age out of being able to sell our... our nostalgia to their generation, what should be the creative edict of people like us,

of people like us who, in 2005, 2006, 2007, you put this stuff out, you goof on it, you do whatever, it's cool. Do we find new things to do that with? Yeah. Okay. I mean, with robot, that's like, I've always thought that robot chicken's more lifestyle than,

than, like, individual icons. Yeah. It was always kind of a pledge of allegiance that people seemed to like. The tone of the humor. This kind of shit is interesting for me. You know, you talk about adult swim being something that pioneered that or was at least the shepherd of those kinds of messages. We watched, like, the stuff that I was raised on Monty Python, S&L, Carol Burnett, like, OG sketch shit that just tried it all. Just like in soupy sales, right?

Like I, because I came from, because I was in entertainment as a child, all of my. I studied as a kid and watched all the shit that came before me just to see how it was done. And I liken all of it to the X games, right? There was a point where nobody was even trying to do a 360 on a fucking bicycle. And now you have people doing like 300 foot flips, legs off, separate from the bike. It's a sort of Red Bull's profile now. Yes. The fact that something like Red Bull exists to continue to inspire,

these games exist to like make people think, well, how can I do it better, stronger, faster, more accomplished? Like, the reason we declare something like the 80s, the greatest is it was it was just a point of innovation that sort of showed people like, you're allowed to do this, right? If there wasn't all the innovation in the 80s, you wouldn't have even gotten something like the Judgment Night soundtrack, right? Like you wouldn't have had. Wow.

You just, well, because it was the first time that a very commercial. company was like, yeah, fuck it, we'll try fusion rap, right? If you hadn't had walk this way, right? Like rap and rock being like, no, we're all making music. I don't know. You don't get collision course. Jay Z and Lincoln Park. Classic.

What type of shit you love. Do you still love it all as much as you did when you were a kid? Like all these cartoons, all this stuff, because it's your job now. Well, yeah, there was an interesting thing, right, where like as a toy lover, I've held every grail that ever like stood yeah ahead of me about castle gray skull all of it like I've held the original like the lead molds of the rocket firing boba fat you're just like okay now I guess I touch that right and you I don't know it's not that it loses any meeting I still have a passion for all these stories and I love seeing that inspiration in the eyes of the audience but the stuff that that gets

me excited it's different right like I went to San Diego this year and And I, after I did all of my work there, I got to spend an hour just walking the fucking floor. Yeah. And, you know, if I'm not with a phalanx of security guards, I've got a hat, I'm short, I just look like a creep, right? If I have a backpack on, nobody will talk to me. So that's pretty cool.

I saw Matt Graning out on the floor, too. I go, hey, you don't even have a fucking hat on. And he was like, I just look like an old guy. Dang. They're the best. No. Yo, Seth Green, bro. Thank you so much for stopping by the show, man.

We're honored. Hell yeah. Yes, your honor. Court is adjourned. Court is adjourned. Yeah.