The Ringer-Verse - Midnight Court: Superman vs. the Fantastic Four | The Midnight Boys

Episode Date: July 4, 2025

The Boys are back in court to debate the two hottest films of the nerd universe in 2025: ‘Superman’ vs. ‘The Fantastic Four: First Steps.’ Here to decide which legal team gave the best argument is the honorable judge Sean Fennessey. (0:00) Intro (2:26) Opening Statements (8:45) Cross-Examination (44:45) Closing Statements (49:03) Verdict Hosts: Van Lathan, Charles Holmes, Jomi Adeniran, and Steve Ahlman Guest: Sean Fennessey Producers: Aleya Zenieris and Jade Whaley Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This message is brought to you by Apple Pay. No matter where you're going this summer, odds are you'll need to pay for a few things, like a ride share, a souvenir, or dinner at that spot on your bucket list. Instead of digging in your wallet every time, just use Apple Pay. It's accepted anywhere you see the contact list symbol,

and all it takes is a tap with your iPhone or Apple Watch. The best part is you'll still earn the card rewards, points, and cashbacks you love. Easy set up now, easier travels later with Apple Pay. Terms apply. On today's show, the Ringerverse is about to get Ringer Ugly. Weeks away from the release of Superman and Fantastic Four, a different Marvel versus DC battle is about to take place in the court of law.

Mr. Lathen and Holmes of Midnight and Sons contend the success of the new Superman movie is more important to the superhero genre than Fantastic Four. Defending Marvel's first family and the MCU's honor are the upstart lawyers, Mr. Denneron and Mr. Alman. Welcome to Midnight Court. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Trimphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Trimphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks,

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736 to learn more or visit trimfire radio.com. Please all rise for the Honorable Judge Finacy. The court may be seated. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you all for being here today.

Look forward to your arguments. Thank you. So today we are contesting the case of is Superman or Fantastic Four First Steps more important for the future of superhero movies? who will be presenting their cases to the court today? Your Honor, my very talented partner, Mr. Lathen, and I, will be defending Superman and James Gunn.

From Adirond and Alman, I am Adirond. This is Alman. And we'll be defending the great honor of Fantastic Four of the First Steps. Look forward to your arguments. Mr. Lathen, did your suit get stuck at the cleaners? It did, sir. I see. It did.

Must have been with my robe. Yeah, with your... It's casual Friday is in the court today, even though it's Wednesday. Well, it's Friday when this is coming out. Yeah, well, then casual Fridays was right. It was right the first time. I'll help to be right. You guys want to go first or should we go first?

Well, I mean, opening statements, it's up to the court. It's up to the judge. Let's have Mr. Lathen and Mr. Holmes present their opening arguments to begin. Okay. Your Honor, opposing counsel, audience. I'd like to start my opening statements with a question. To you, Your Honor, to everyone. What's the difference between excitement and water?

Do you have an answer to you? It's not my responsibility to answer your questions, sir. Please present your arguments. I'm really stated. Thank you. Well, the answer is very clear. One is something that you want. The other is something that you need.

any life should have excitement. But every life must have water. What I would say is that in this case between the Fantastic Four and Superman, what we're really litigating here is the difference between a want and a need. Do we want a good Fantastic Four movie? Sure. They're fun. It's a gaggle of laughs, family together, different powers.

Yeah, it's cool. It's fun. It's a part of the superhero fabric. But Superman is a hero that we need now and have always needed. We need Superman. Superman is a mythology that harkens back to some of the earliest mythologies in human history. It asks, what if a being so singularly powerful had to commune with ordinary people? What would this being do? How would this being comport itself? What would this being

make its goal? Rather, is humanity enough to curb the appetites that humanity sometimes defines. Can we be better than ourselves? Can we be powerful? Can we be the thing that we aspire to being? That's why Superman continues to come back. That's why there is a Golden Age Superman, a Silver Age Superman, a modern Superman, a postmodern Superman.

That's why when there's too much time between Superman, we have to reinvent it because we want to keep coming back to ourselves. We want to keep asking the question, is humanity enough? And that's what the character does. The character takes this person, this being with God-like powers, and it takes the best qualities of us, puts it in that person, and then has it joined our community. will never stop having Superman.

We'll never stop looking to the sky. We'll never stop wanting, not to be saved, but to be in community. Superman is one of us. You guys, the Fantastic Four, just, they'll measure up like that. It's not the same thing. Okay?

It's actually the response to that. It's actually, oh my God, truth, justice in the American way. Let's try to do something for the, kids. Let's have rock man. Let's have stretchy man. Let's have a, let's have an invisible lady and fireman. Four people added up can't do what Superman does either on the page or in society. That's why when we're talking about getting back down to the brass tacks of superheroes, which is what this post-in-game superhero film era is about. The most important thing for us to

do is start at the beginning, the first and the best, that is Calaisal from the plant Krypton, that is Superman. That's my open. Thank you, Counselor. Strong words, as expected, for the side of Fantastic Four. A dinner on an almond. You're up. Thank you, Judge. Ladies and gentlemen of the court, while we are here to argue necessity, as opposing counsel has eloquently stated, we're not here to argue about nostalgia. Let's be quite frank. Superman is a safe bet.

Might say too safe. He's had nine movies, many of which have been origin stories. They've been known since before color television. And while that's not exactly exciting, it's more of muscle memory for popular culture. Fantastic before, though, that's family. That's family values.

And it's one thing that we've been waiting to get right for a very long time. Three official films, not exactly worth writing home about, but until now, this isn't just a movie, this is Marvel's Hail Mary, one that we've been waiting to get right for many years. While the recent MCU entries have been either forgotten critically like Thunderbolts or flopped, like Captain America, it's this one that actually needs to be gotten right. What are the stakes you might ask? Well, Kevin Faggy said himself that getting this movie right is the most important thing to him right now.

I think that stands very, very important. No real cheat codes as far as nostalgia plays or CGI dogs to pluck at your heartstrings. No. A family, man, woman, child, rocky uncle, and a brash on fire nephew that not that many people can argue with. But for Superman, they're playing with house money. Fantastic Four is here to bet the house. And with today's evidence, I think you can prove that the thing that we need right now is the fantastic. This episode is brought to by WeatherTech.

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Learn more at clinickids.com slash 100K. That's ClinicK with a K. Clinic Kids is registered 5-0C3 nonprofit. 4. Thank you very much. Thank you, counselor. I'll open with a brief series of interrogations of those opening arguments. Counselor Lathen and Holmes, I'd like to start with you. Councillor Lathan, you noted that

the best of us goes into Superman. I'll note that not only is Superman a man, but he's a white man as rendered in all these films. What do you have to say about that? So this is what I have to say. First of all, first thing is everybody here is white. All these heroes are white. Side objection, the thing is orange, your honor.

And what was the last human torch? orange as well with the flames that emit from his bottom. Right, right, right, right, right, right. Wow, you don't even know your own stuff. The objection is sustained. Okay, wow. Okay, well, listen, when, now I can do a whole history, the deconstruction of the word we,

how white supremacy and colonialism and imperialism. That's what I don't know. That's all I'm trying to. That's absolutely. Okay, I could deconstruct that, but let me tell you what I mean when I say, wait. It doesn't matter where you go. If you take the mythology of the strong man who can do anything, if you take John Henry, the steel driving man, if you take some of the African American mythology that we've, excuse me, the African mythology that we've seen, some of the folklore that we've seen, what I'm essentially saying is that, you know, a long time ago, human beings were looking around and realizing these gargantuan problems that they had, and they were asking themselves how they were going to solve these problems. And sometimes they came together to solve these problems. But sometimes they thought and they

wished and they wanted for something bigger to come solve those problems for them and with them. You could almost argue, if you are not a religious person as I am, that that is the beginning of religion. And when I say we, what I'm talking about is our belief that something so powerful can be so good is very fundamental, which is why we keep coming back to the story of Superman. And even Batman, Batman who has a billion dollars, and we want to believe would still care about what's going on the streets of Gotham, when really he would have stock and palantir. So what I'm saying is that the fundamental nature

of this one single thing that communes with us, that wants to be one of us, whose humanity is its biggest strength, is something that takes us further than these characters that were created when someone was having an LSD trip in the West Village in 1962. Objection, relevancy. what does he have to do he was doing drugs? What are you talking to me?

You object to him. Objection relevancy. What's what the drugs talk? Overruled cultural context matters in the note of these debates. LSD is very culturally relevant to the one Jack Kirby, so I would say. Counselor Allman, question for you. You noted that there have been three previous installments of the Fantastic Four Films. There was a fourth in the late 1980s as well as produced by Roger Corman.

Never actually made it to the big screen. All four of those iterations, were largely considered creatively and financially failures. Why do we need another Fantastic Four movie in light of those failures? Very good question. I would say that the failures of the prior entries of the Fantastic Four actually would speak to its importance for it to get right in this modern era. The reason that the Fantastic Four have had so many at Bats, ultimately failed ones,

is because of its endearing quality and love from its fans in the comic books. it's been endearing for decades, and it's had many of some of the most highly regarded arcs in the Marvel canon, and one that people are still waiting for to have. They would not be enlisting Hollywood's biggest star on the rise, Pedro Pascal, to helm this adventure with his family, and it just speaks to how important it is.

Counselors Lathan and Holmes, the DCEU was, hot garbage. Yeah. They're attempting to turn the ship around right now. Why should I believe that this regime will be any better than the one that came before it? Well, Your Honor, I think because the person at the helm right now has introduced a very, very, very important fact. These movies, and when I say these movies, the MCU have gotten so muddled.

so critically panned because they are not making movies for the people they're making it for a balance sheet they are not saying do we have a story to tell they are saying we need to hit a date so we are going into production without fully realized scripts

I believe I have it here that one James Gunn said I do believe that the reason why the movie industry is dying is not because of the people not wanting to see movies it's not because of home screens getting so good the number one reason is because people are making movies without a finished screenplay.

And at a time when superhero movies are in such a drought, do we want to count on two more Avengers films that are being rushed into theaters without finished scripts, without any idea where they're going to land, or do we want to trust James Gunn, who has been at the MCU, has seen all of the mistakes that they've made, and is doing his best to write those wrongs?

Avengers films are not on trial. Your Honor, I just want to make that clear. We're talking about Superman Infant. No, counselor, they're not, but the Fantastic Four film may be. So I'll follow up that answer with a question for you. Matt Shackman is the director of the Fantastic Four First Steps. How many films has he directed? So that's a great question, Your Honor.

Answer the question, Your Honor. That's a great question, Your Honor. I would posit that may, while... Listen, what we're really talking about here? What we're really talking about here As Matt Shackman I remember Counselor, the answer to the question is zero

He's directed zero films You need some water at the time you're done it wrong Sure, but that's, I mean again, that's not what's on trial here Right Matt Shack, if I recall correctly, we did a little conversation about our favorite film Or movie or We got to ask a question about our favorite shows

Counsel, would you like a recess? I'm good, I'm good, I'm good, I'm good. We did a little, we had a little question. too bright at midnight court. Your, Mr. Lathen, if I recall correctly, you said that Wanda Vision was your favorite television show.

Yes. To come out in the last like forever, really, of fandom stuff, right? Fandum stuff, yes. Now, can I ask you who directed that show? Matt Jackman. Matt Shackman, interesting. I just want to make sure that's on the record.

This is not the Midnight Court of Television, sir. No, sir, I, no, it's not. But the director of WandaVision is Matt Jackman, who was director, Fantastic Four. someone who you view in high regard. Not only does that director know his way around the Marvel canon, but I would refer

to both the judge and opposing counsel that all the director needs is one movie to be good. How many movies did Quinn Tarantino make before he made reservoir dogs? Zero. Actually, that's not true. You guys don't know what you're talking about. Yeah. He did you direct.

But, but, Kim. It's okay, a lot of Ghibli. It's okay, a lot of Ghibli. We're working here. Right, right. But, okay, so this is what I would say to that, and I think it's a very actually,

I'm going to give counsel, opposing counsel, credit for an astute point. We're talking about two different art forms. Obviously, we're talking about the watch versus the big pick. We're talking about someone who has shown that they can do it in television. And look, maybe Matt can make a great superhero movie. Maybe he can make a superhero movie that,

for Marvel right now, restores the feeling. But when we're talking about this particular movie with these particular characters, I'm saying he has a lot harder of a job. The entire experiment of this superhero thing is based upon one film. And that is Superman the movie directed by Richard Donner.

And we keep trying to make people feel that same feeling. And we're going to keep chasing it until we do it. James Gunn has shown that he has the emotional gravitas, the pen, and the way to put characters that are beloved into very compromising and conflicting situations to make me believe Matt Shackman has something to prove, which James Gunn doesn't. Which would make Matt Shackman this more important for him than James Gunn because of James Gunn. Is it more important for Matt Shackman or James Gunn or whether Superman or Fantastic Four is more important for superheroes?

Right. So if you're James Gunn, you've already made good superhero movies. You don't need Superman to go crazy. Superman can do whatever it might and people will still be like James Gunn makes good superhero movies for Matt Shackman and Marvel if this does not work you have to reevaluate everything

it all comes back that would be true except for one fact the fact that James Gunn now has a different role not just as filmmaker but as head of a studio which is the DCU a part of a studio should I say the vertical of a studio should I said

which has completely changed his position in Hollywood. If this experiment fails, it is not just an experiment that is a failure in terms of the movie itself or the movies. It's an experiment that fails that is central to the reputation of James Gunn in Hollywood.

Can you write a good script, make a good movie? Yes. Can you be someone that orients a universe around your filmmaking style, your narrative style, your visual style, and the way that you view these things in the specific part of mythology and cultural lore that you say you love the most, which is the superhero movie. Can you do this?

It is the test of his entire career what he's doing like this. Matt Jackman is just another director. And I will just also add, I will also add to that. Fantastic Four is proving to audiences whether they're still meat on the MCU bone. I would argue that Superman, in terms of the town and culture, is proving whether people have appetites for superhero movies going forward. We're talking about a bigger scale. People are going to go see Spider-Man.

They're going to go see Avengers. These are proven, proven billion-dollar franchises in the modern times. What James Gunn is trying to prove is that there is more meat on the bone for superheroes in general. This is the little time versus some big boy shit. I don't think any of that is true. actually. If we were to apply that logic, then that means that the individual superhero fair, such as the Fantastic Four, could equally have that same amount of weight because of the fact that if anything outside of the Avengers or outside of a Spider-Man film bombs, then the entire exercise is irrelevant. So therefore, we need something like the Fantastic Four to actually buoy the non-tent pole films. I would like to ask the council Opposed a council

A quick question And maybe to you as well Judge I'll ask the question Thank you, Your Honor Get it beat up Is it to be a camera If you'd cause it

An argument that requires response Feel free In the meantime Stick to making your case Wow My fault My fault OG Council

Your Honor Can I ask you a question You may If you had to pick the Mount Rushmore of superhero or comic book characters who would be on your four. I'm not answering that question.

Counselor, I'm not paid to do such a day. Thank you. We're here to have a very specific sort of conversation not provide additional content for the Midnight Boys on behalf of the big picture co-hoom. Whoa! There is a time and place for that sort of episode

and you will make that episode when it is deemed necessary. Jones, Jones. Now please continue to make your argument, sir. Jones. Man. You mentioned that characters like Spider-Man will always get movies. People always come out to see those movies.

People do the same for Superman. This will be, what, the ninth iteration of Superman movies throughout the aeons? People continually come to watch the movies. People have identities with these movies. One of our, again, Mr. Lathen, one of his favorite is Superman. He loves the Christopher Reeve Superman character, so he has that. Yes.

Right? We don't have a Fantastic Four. As much as you guys, as much as you guys hate on me personally for enjoying the 2005 Fantas Four movie, for most of the people in listening and they have no attachment to these characters.

This is the first time that people are going to have an opportunity and a real actual chance to fall in love with these characters for real. That means something. If Superman does not, work in a couple of years we'll get another Superman movie. If Fantastic 4

does not work, we're looking at it like, is this the death of these characters that we have worked so so hard to get to the screen? Can I respond to that? Mr. Deneron? Very strong point. Now, what I will say to that, if the Fantastic Four doesn't

work, yes. It is a hit for the MCU. It is a hit for a lot of different people. I would contend if Superman does not work, it is a hit on DC comics characters and superheroes. An entire movie studio, Warner Brothers, takes a cultural hit. And then movie theaters and the Hollywood going public take a hit.

And what I mean by that, would you please let me finish Mr. Alman? Thank you. Right now. Because, actually, is it all right if I bring a witness, a witness up? You may. All right, I would like to bring one Bob Eiger to the stand. And I have one question for Mr. Bob Eiger. Is he here?

He was, please. I know him a little bit. Mr. Iger, could you please explain to the court how you hobbled the moviegoing experience and the business for so many people? Oh, my God. Jesus Christ. I think in our in our zeal to basically grow our content significantly to serve our, mostly our streaming offerings, we ended up taxing our people way beyond in terms of their time

and their focus, way beyond where they had been. Marvel's a great example of that. They had not been in the TV business at any significant level. Not only did they increase their movie output, but they ended up making a number of television series, and frankly, it diluted focus and attention. So what I want to focus us on is when Iger says it diluted. What did it dolew? Well, to me, Superheroes were a cinematic experience. And then with Greed on Disney Plus and streaming, we taught an entire generation of moviegoers that these heroes that we love to pay to see in theaters

were small enough to fit in the palm of our hand. Now, I would like to pass around some exhibits. I will pass this around to the... Asked to approach the bench. Yeah, you didn't even ask to approach the bench. getting yelled at. It's just crazy. Thank you, Counselor.

Yeah. It's the suit. It's the suit. You look crazy. Men's Warehouse. The exhibits that I'm showing you, the first two charts are charts of how DC and the MCU have performed domestically. The third chart is what superheroes have made since I believe the early 2000s in terms of the global box office. The reason that I put these exhibits in front of you is that Bob Eiger has already said,

we've released too much. We need to go back to two MCU movies. We have to go back to one or two Disney Plus shows. But if you will see on the third graph about the cumulative global money that superhero movies have brought, where are we going to get? What is going to fill that gap? If Superman doesn't succeed, if Batman doesn't succeed, if Supergirl doesn't succeed. where is this money coming from?

You could say video games, children's content are doing well this year, but it is still very, very, very tricky. So you're making the point that the MCU has almost used. I didn't want to use a vile term. If you're letting me finish my point, what I was going to say is that what the MCU has done is proven that there can be too much of this content.

the same wash, rinse, cycle, repeat. The audience has told us with Thunderbolts, with Captain America, with Eternals, with all of these movies, this is too much. We do not want this. We want something new. Okay.

James Gunn and Superman presents something new. It presents, hey, there's a different way to tell these stories. And I believe that given time, these movies can become the next MCU. The reason I gave you also, the difference between the MCU and the DCU movies is what we can see is that people want to see these movies.

There just hasn't been a vision yet. Right. So your entire art. There has not been a creative person at the helm like Kevin Feige to shepherd these superheroes in the DC stable like they need to. Your entire argument. I would say I would rather invest in the new.

Your entire argument is that the MCU is so stepped on, right? That the product is bad, which would mean for us that if it's that bad, that I mean it's fantastic. for is even more important because if they've shown over the last couple of years they can't really shepherd universe that means that this is the movie this is the moment that if they're going to show us that hey we're back we're making real stuff again it will be fantastic i would say you mentioned you mentioned you mentioned uh thunderbolts yes and cap four both of whom also came out

also came out this year which fat i uh cap four was uh reviled and by critical by critics by critics and did not make that much bad. And while favorably, people enjoyed Thunderbolts did not make no money. Yes. Right. And so now they have the last film of the year coming up in Fantastic Four coming out July 24th. This is the moment. This is the time when they have to course correct everybody, be like, actually, all that other stuff.

That was fake. This is who we are. This is what we do. So I want to put more faith in the company that put us in this position in the first place or bet my money on someone who's left the MCU, knows all of the mistakes is the last person who has made a good movie

over there, James Gunn, with the Guardians of the Galaxy 3. The point of the entire gentleman. Sorry, decorum, yes. Order in this court. I would just like to say,

the point you're making is that the Marvel Cinema universe is so down deep in the mud that no matter what the Fantastic Four do, it doesn't matter that it's over. No, what my argument is

is that the MCU, and Disney has put us in a position where the audience is saying we don't want Marvel heroes and that is hurting the entire ecosystem. We don't want Marvel heroes. Right? But they might, okay, you're saying they don't

want Marvel heroes. That's why this movie is so important. This will show people that they need these superheroes back in their lives. Allow me to interject here. This is the way I would distill the argument. The Fantastic Four are IP. Superman's IP. Kind of.

That's just. Disrespectful. That's disrespectful. Can I get a ruling on this? Are you an IP? Can I negating of the facts? Can I extrapolate the argument? Counsel, you may make your case, but Superman is in fact IP.

He is. But I would argue that he's more than that. I'd argue that the reason why James Gunn, who had his pick of characters to start his DCU with, the reason why he told Superman is because he believed, that if you can't tell a good Superman's story anymore, that the only thing left is IP. What I mean is this. If you cannot believe or make people believe

that the most powerful being on the planet wants to hug you or wants to play with and have fun with his dog, then essentially what we're doing is just retreading old stories to sell toys and to sell cartoons and to sell popcorn buckets. But if you

can make people believe, who want to believe, who look out in a world right now and are actually waiting for Superman, who want to believe, if you can make them believe in this character again, then you can reset the dynamic of the comic

book movie. You can reset the dynamic of the storytelling. You do something new by doing something old. The story of Superman is no different than the story of Neo. It's no different than the story of John McLean.

A guy who seemingly has, I watch Die Hard, John McLean got to be superhuman. He got to be from another point. He has a superhuman wit, a superhuman aim, a superhuman ability to evaluate a

situation, all of that. But you have to believe that more than anything else he just wants to save today. Fantastic Four are cool. Like Captain America is cool. Iron Man is cool. All of these characters are cool characters who, through a lot of cinematic and story interrogation, you can make people believe in the things they already know about Superman, that they already know. And so I think the reason why James Gunn didn't start a game with Batman, probably because some other reasons. Maybe he would. I don't know. But it's because he wants to make superheroes. I don't even want to say it does this.

He wants to make them matter now. I was going to say again, but then I get into a whole other thing. He wants to make superheroes matter in a way that we know that they should. So that's the reason why you start with him. That's the reason why this movie needs to work. And that's the reason why if this movie doesn't work,

we need not get more. We in trouble, girl. If this movie doesn't work, if we can't just get back to the basics, then how can we make ourselves believe that the more complicated shit is going to work. Counselors Holmes and Lathen, I have a question for you. Yes.

I'm ready for it. The previous three filmmakers who've been credited as directors on Superman projects are as follows. Brian Singer, yeah, Zach Snyder, and Joss Whedon. Yeah. Can you address the sort of person

that is attracted to the Superman mythos? I can. Well, number one, that's the problem. And I'm not going to add, I don't think that we're going to act like that Superman as a character is not without its problems. Complicated. One of the problems is that the connection that people feel to the character is so intense that a lot of times people overdo it. With the Snyder movie, what you had is a movie that relied too much on the nostalgia and the blueprint from a filmmaker before him.

and didn't even give the character a contemporary voice at all. Then you had the Snyder Superman, which was a reaction to that portrayal that gave us a high testosterone, barely emotional, glum, weirdly, I don't care about people, Superman, that people could not latch on to. And then you got Whedon, who between being a horrible person was just trying to fix the character. What you've never got, or what you haven't seen yet, is a Superman's Superman, a character that has its own worldview, a character that is reacting to what's going on in its world, and a character that is a hero for its time. That is what James Gunn is attempting to do. And what I am saying is that that attempt is just incredibly important because we live in complicated times when we don't know who our heroes are. and establishing a hero that we could all get behind, that's more than just, you know, the hellmary of a studio,

I think it's very important, which is why he started there. The only thing I would add to that is I'm super excited for the Fantastic Four, but I think there's a difference between a movie being merely a chapter that is trying to get us to another multiversal mumbo-jumbo. Hey, I have fun at the movies too. But to Mr. Lathen's point, I think getting a character back to the roots, doing something simple, proving that, hey, at the end of the day, sometimes it is as simple as a hero protecting a small child, saving a dog in a tree. Sometimes you don't need all of the bullshit that comes along with having 30 plus movies and trying to tie them all together. Counselor, please restrain yourself from such a language.

I know that. Sorry. Your honor, I apologize to the court. get passionate about things I believe in truly like Superman. This is really, this is really rich coming from you to. As far as we know, you know,

Objection, Your Honor? What baron does this have on the case? Can I speak? Can you speak without attacking opposing counsel? I just feel that it's really funny that you mentioned the simplicity of your movie. When, according to IMD, you've got Superman, no, Lovis Lane,

Lex Luthor all makes sense. Wait, is that Green Lantern? Is that hot girl? Mr. Mr. Terrific? This seems like a lot going on for your film. And you're attacking us for being a simple movie about a first family. I don't think that's really fair. Counselors, a dinner on in Holman, let me ask you this question.

You've heard from this group why Superman is a story that we need now. The materials that we've seen from Fantastic Four suggest a red, retrofuturist, a hidden past, an alternate past in our experience as Americans. That doesn't seem very contemporary. Why is the Fantastic Four important right now? Well, I think the importance of the Fantastic Four being brought forward to a modern context with a retrofuturistic backdrop is exactly the reason why it can remain more important. The values that the family actually bring into that context, a retrofuturist, an alternate

timeline, a different world that doesn't exist in our time, can have a bigger impact on the wider world at large. And the, much like Superman coming from a foreign planet, landing on earth and imparting the best of us, they impart their ideals and family love and values towards other people. And it's through that unity that we look to those heroes, not just for safety, but heroism and love. We, I mean, to add on to that, we spent many years. We, watching the Avengers and other so-called teams, Thunderbolts, go through their films. And then we feel together.

You know, it feels more like a workplace than it does a family. This is probably the first time in MCU history where we actually have a real family, fighting for each other and laying down their lives for each other. And not some engineered via cameo or plot development of, like, wild confusion as to why one cosmic hero may interact with another

and to simply bolster up brand recognition, this family is the brand. Well, I would just, can I just say very, very quickly, I find it very rich that Mr. Alman would like to go back to the 1960s because I know of a couple of races and a couple different people where that was a very fraught time.

So I'm just saying. I would not like to whitewash history just to make you feel better. I would also like to add that, saying that a family in no way laid down, their lives for each other in the MCU is just it's very upsetting to Quicksilver

to Odin, Friga. It's all the rest of the families that we've seen. Is Garding's the galaxy not a family? Just because they're not blood-related? Ripped apart by the happenings of what went on. The Quistiver died and the sister had to watch it. And then you have the temerity right here to sit right here

Mr. Holmes and say that we've never seen a family ripped apart into you. How dare you? We have seen it. And by the way, I'll tell you something right now. We're kind of sick of it. You know what we want? We want is a as a farm boy from Kansas to rise up and get all of his superhero friends together

because you guys are telling me that the Superman movie is too complicated. Sir, what universe does your movie take place in? The Marvel Cinematic. You don't know. Don't even know. What timeline does it exist? Like, what is it too complicated?

Reed Richards is going to... Do you know Superman's World is Earth 1 or... Excuse me. They don't know. They don't know. Would you like to let me finish? Did I interrupt you? Gentlemen, please.

Okay. Like, Richard Richards is going to introduce, no less than 52 different inventions. He's going to tell you math and the sacred geometry and all of that. You're going to have to go in there with a Kip Thorne Bible and bring Neil deGrasse Tyson with you. It's going to be very heady, guys. Okay? The movie's going to be heady. Franklin Richards, reality warper.

Hi, my name is Stewie. I'm from Boise, Idaho. I just got here, I'm 11. What does it mean to warp reality? We'll tell you through exposition. Guess what? Which version of Silver Surfer is this, gentlemen? Oh, why does the Silver Surfer have C cups?

We don't know. So, like, what I'm saying is... Anything can be anything. Which, by the way, I support it. We will not body-shamed Silver Surfer. We absolutely not body-shamed Silver Surfer. We love All right

Mr. Allman and Mr. Adelon hate Ccups but over here at midnight We love

We love that from the record I'm saying I'm saying I'm very clearly We love Ccups Members of the jury

Please disregard all mention of Ccups in this presentation today Your Honor if I may distill my point

in 30 seconds it's just that Hawk man we know Hawk girl we know we're not introducing

any characters that people are not familiar with. They're not going to have to get their own origin stories. Might they wonder why there's a black guy with a skin condition in the movie? Yeah, they might. But then we'll just say he's Mr. Terrific. And then that's the deal. It's simple. It's back to our roots.

It's Lus Luthor. He's bald. Come on, man. It's crypto. It's classic. Do you guys think dogs? What's more classic for the fantastic form? Dogs are not on trial here, Counselor Holmes.

Wow. I think dogs are on trial every day. And I would treat them in this country. We should treat them better. That's all I'm saying. What's more classic than a fantastic four store where they're fighting silver surfer and Galactus? Superman?

America? Apple motherfucking pie? Okay. What's more classic? You want to be Team America now? You want to be Team America now? Counselor, one more F-bomb and you'll be censured by this court. Wow.

Wow. I did not know we were censoring. But I guess if you were asking me a question. And the question was, what's more regular American, what's more comic book than the Fantastic Four versus Silver Surfer and Galactus? The answer is very simply Superman versus Lex Luthor. And that is unimpeachable. The answer is very simple.

Not your movie. Superman versus Lex Lerner. Who's the engineer? Gentlemen, gentlemen, we're too far. down the rabbit hole. It's nearly time for closing arguments. Wow. Wow. Can we make one more point? That's very specific. Every time you guys talk,

it's better for us. Go ahead. Is this a point that can be made in your closing argument, sir? Probably not, but you know, you're the judge. I'll allow it. Great. Fantastic. We have had... I'll allow it. You can do that.

Many a conversation about one Pedro Pascal here on this little feed here. We have talked about him. Adonaz him the last couple of weeks. What of his working materialists? What have you said? I, me personally, I think, no, no, no, no, no.

I think that his, he was perfectly cast in that role. You object to the judge? That was trying to push past that. I would argue that he was cast perfectly in that role, and he brought nuances and actually like height, no spoilers, to the movie that it needed. Okay. One person on our little bench here would say that he was not only miscast, but is ugly as hell. No. Objection, Your Honor.

Let them continue to lie. It's okay. Mr. Lathen said he was less hot than Richard. Right, but you know what that man. And we know what they went. And he also doesn't... Objection is sustained. Richard Gear is significantly more beautiful than Pedro Pascal. Continue, Counselor. The point I'm trying to make is that we've been... they've been trying to make

Pedro Pascal a thing for a minute now. He is the hottest man in Hollywood in terms of being in materialists the last of us. The Mando and Grogo movie that's coming out in the next couple of years. Which he was absolutely on set for. Right. He was definitely there for that.

This is... What about Ari Aster's Eddington? Right. Oh, yes. Yeah, he was also in that movie that I've definitely seen. This is the moment for Pedro Pascal. If the movie comes out, And it's not it. And Pedro Pascal's not doing it.

Oh, man. Objection. This is, what relevance is this actual argument? Like, what? We're not litigating Pedro Pascal. Without Superman and fantastic. I'm saying the stakes, the stakes for him

are not the same for any of the actors in the stakes in your movie. They don't give the shit. Sir, please. We apologize. I'm sorry. Who cares? So what? Like, so.

what? America cares. The line produced are on Fantastic for he needs it too. Who couldn't it so? All right gentlemen. We're all been punched drunk. I think it's time for closing arguments.

At first, we'll be Lathen and Holmes because they went first. Okay. Last time around. Superman stands for truth, justice, and the American way. Oh, my God.

I don't know about y'all. When I look outside my window, it seems lately we've strayed from the American way, from our ideals. When I look outside, I see a lot of things. Hatred. Despair. But most importantly, I see old institutions with even older ideas

afraid to give way to the future, to hope, to something new. Y'all love the MCU, and we're excited to see Marvel's first family come home. Don't you worry, I will be their opening day to support, but let's not forget why we are here today. This isn't an argument about which movie we're more excited to see, or which one is more consequential to lore or narrative. We're here to debate whether America is ready to support and build something better and cast off old, tired, broken down horses that are too slow and cumbersome to pivot at one of the most pivotal times for superheroes.

Under the watchful eye of James Gunn and Peter Safran, we are on the precipice of raising the standards for superhero movies again. For far too long, we've dealt with crumbs. Unfinished screenplays. shoddy CGI, abandoned plot lines, meandering shows. Harry Stiles.

But we can do better. Superman might not be the flashiest hero. He's not grim and gritty like Batman. He doesn't throw quips and banter like Spider-Man. But there's no doubt in my mind that he's our most important hero in 2025. And why? Because he represents the,

one thing we need now more than ever as a people. And that is hope. Thank you for your time. Does that's what the S means on the chest is hope? You already know it. Okay. It's not an S. All right. It's not an S. It means help. Your turn, sir.

First off, I want to thank my constituents, you know, Councillor Almond. Composedant counsel. You're not a politician. This is the last time. He's the last time I'm doing it. He's running a town hall. For the last hour,

you've heard debates, conversations, and discussions about whether Fantastic Four or Superman will be the most important movie of the summer. Counsel Almond and I have shown, without a shadow of doubt, that obviously Fantastic Four will be the more important movie of the summer. But we had help. We had help from these two gentlemen right here.

Counselor Holmes, said that the MCU product has been stepped on and ruined by greed and laziness. Does this not make Fantastic for the last bashed of hope for the MCU? Does that not make this movie the last grasp by reaching an audience that's already shown that they might be bored, that their time might be up? You mentioned, Councillor Lathen. There's Golden Age Superman, a Silver Age Superman, a Bronze Superman, a Donner Superman, Snyder Superman. every people have had their version Superman now people get their chance

at a fantastic four a real family they've had three chances not any that you've connected with that's all I get that's the end of your statement that's the end of my statement I see

well gentlemen thank you so much for your time your thought your ideas your optimism your intentionality, your wardrobes. Most of us. And most especially your words today.

Is it up to me now to make a decision or do the people make a decision? Yes, Your Honor. Well, these were vigorous defenses of the two most important movies, not just to this summer movie season or to the future of the superhero movie, but frankly to the Midnight Boys. Because as I look upon the state of, popular culture and I am forced to sit through

every single superhero movie ever made and I think about a world in which both of these films fail to live up to expectations I see potentially golden harvests flowing rivers blue skies

but this is not about me this is about what you had to say today and after reviewing both of your arguments, it's clear to me now that the most important film to come this summer for the future of superhero movies

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