The Ringer-Verse - 'Moon Knight' Episode 1 Deep Dive | House of R

Episode Date: April 1, 2022

Mal and Joanna summon the power of the moon and are ready to dive into the first episode of the Disney+ Marvel show 'Moon Knight' (04:45). They break down the character's history in the comics (28:51), along with looking into the events of the season premier and what can be gathered from each main character (42:03). Later, Joanna dives into the history of actual Egyptian gods as it relates to the show (92:24). And finally, answering your mailbag questions with Jomi. Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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which includes gas, bloating, rumbling, and abdominal discomfort. She would have prevented Hitler and the destruction. Irani Raq, Nero, the Armenian genocide, Paul Pott. Not nice people. But she was betrayed. Was she? By indolent fellow guards. Oh, by even her own avatar.

Avatars, blue people. Love that film. By avatar. You mean that? I mean. Anime. Stephen. Stop.

And welcome into the ringerverse, here on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin, and it is my absolute pleasure. to invite you not only to London, isn't it? But also to join us on the Ringer's

Nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. Joining me today, now that she's finished asking what in the world a bloody

vegan's going to eat in a steakhouse. It's my house of our co-host Joanna Robinson. Hello, hello.

Oh, I think I peaked on one. Sorry, Steve. Hello. Wake me up for your pod pod. Oh, in here, I thought that was just a pre-podcast. But I didn't know you're going to do a repeat performance. Had to do it. Had to do it.

We are here, of course, to talk about Moon Night, the newest MCU show. So excited. But before we walk through the museum doors, a few quick programming reminders, as always, Big Pod Week next week On Monday. Clear your schedules. Because it is a House of Midnight team up. It's Morbius time, folks,

and that is something that we can only face together. Spoiler alert, one of us liked it. So tune in to find out who. And then on Wednesday, the Midnight Boys, we'll be back with their instant reaction to Moon Night. Episode two, and then we will be back on the House of Our on Friday with our episode two, Deep dive. You can, of course, follow all of that by following the ringerverse on Spotify

or wherever you get your podcasts. And of course, by following the ringerverse social feeds. We are everywhere, including now on TikTok. Shout out to Jomey. Shout out to Jomey and Bridget and the TikTok squad. It's the end of my TikTok experience being exclusively curated by text messages that Joanna sends me. But I'm ready. I'm ready to take this step. Of Obi-1 Canovi and Cat videos.

Listen, know your audience, right? It's been a special time. One final reminder, the spoiler warning. Our friendly neighborhood spoiler warning is always. Today's podcast will feature plot details from the Moon Night premiere. Episode one, the goldfish problem. We will, of course, as always, be discussing the entire MCU canon, maybe, you know, less today than we have in the past, but it's always on the table. And we'll be getting into a little Moon Night Comics canon as well.

So proceed with more caution than Stephen did when he put new Gus into a fucking blender. Why? What is that? Protect Gus and new Gus and any few. future Guses at all costs. I'm going to call that one Gus too, but it's really possible that's Gus number eight. We don't know. We don't know.

We don't know. We do not know. But we do know, Joanna, that we are here to talk about the goldfish problem, the Moon Night premiere. Run us through some quick facts. Yeah, so as we've, first of all, so thrilled to be back on the Marvel Beat with you. Mali Rubin, I'm so excited.

Damn, I missed this. It's been a minute. But as we've discussed in previous coverage of Marvel shows, I just always like to get the creatives clear before we start so we know who to like praise or who to blame if we feel stressed about something. So as is often the case with these Marvel shows, it starts with a head writer. So this is Jeremy Slater as the head writer, quote unquote. Then it gets passed off to an EP head director. So like Kate Harron and Loki is head director. This is Mohamed Diav is the head director.

And he did a lot of script changes in listening and reading to a bunch of interviews with him. It's really clear how much of a creative control he had over the script. So Dieb, I think, is like the main creative we'll probably be talking about going forward, though I am interested in sort of Jeremy Slater and the way he created this origin of everything here. And one more creative to mention is Moab's creative partner, Sarah Goer, who is also his wife. She's not, I think, officially credited anywhere, but he names her whenever he can as his, like, a collaborator here. So we're talking about six episodes in total. Controversially, some people have watched four episodes.

Mallory Rubin, how many episodes have we watched of Moonnight? I did not watch four episodes of Moonnight, nor did I. Against my usual programming. Yes. I only watched two. Mallory only watched two. There's nothing wrong with watching four. No.

Everyone I know who got the screeners watched for. But the Midnight Boys have heard you guys, so they'll be talking about their screener interactions on the next episode. but just let you know, Mal and I have only watched too. Yes. It's interesting. I think we sort of met in the middle because your inclination in the past would have been to watch them all. Mine would have been to only watch one.

I felt a dread of being too far behind the entire group. But also just wanted to see a, you know, I was interested to see a touch more about how the show was going to unfold, but also did not, really did not want to go too far. because one of the great thrills is, of course, participating in the weekly conversation and I didn't want to get too far ahead of everybody who's watching in real time. So I stopped it too.

And then I was shocked to learn mere hours ago. That I did the same. This great reveal that you did the same. I was stunned. I felt a little bad. Like, I had guilted you into it. Not at all. We love our wildly inaccurate speculations on House of ours.

That's right. We need to maintain the ability to speculate freely. And incorrectly. So, like, I wouldn't want to take that away from us. But to your point about watching a second episode, I think that goes into our next question. I'm just like, what were our overall impressions of the premiere? Because something I have heard from some people, I think there's been a mixed response to this premiere. I think it's a trickier bet for Marvel in general because they're starting with an unestablished character,

character people are unfamiliar with. So we'll get into all of that, obviously. But I've heard from some people more casual fans that they kind of wish they had gotten to episodes because maybe they wanted a little bit more grounding in this world before they had to wait a week for the next chapter. What like setting aside episode two because we are not, we promised talking about episode two today. What were your overall impressions of the premiere, Mel? I loved it. Shock me, shock me, shock me. Oh boy, it'll stun you to hear, Joanna, that I loved it. I'm excited to talk, obviously, to dive into the character,

the cast, the direction, the artistic styling, the symbolism of these reflections, the use of mirrors, all of it. The horror elements. First of all, the acting is just such a treat. It is just so fun to have Oscar Isaac and Ethan Hawk in the MCU. We will obviously talk about their characters in detail as we go, but I will just say as a little primer

that one of the things I enjoyed most about the premieres that I was really genuinely surprised by how present Ethan Hawk was, by how much of Arthur Harrow we got in the first premiere. I was not anticipating that at all. I really loved how specific the premiere felt, how specifically rendered, how artistically nimble and creative it was, the deployment of the needle drops, the music.

I mean, you open with a Bob Dylan needle drop. That's a real you had me at hello for me. We got every... It's not great a stand. That's expensive. Unbelievable moment. I gasped aloud, Joe. I gasped aloud.

It is not easy to get a Bob Dylan song on your soundtrack. I wonder if Ethan Hawk had anything to do with that. Anyway, he seems like someone who could call Bob Dylan, right? Like, of all the people who might call Bob Dylan, I feel like... Or maybe Oscar Isaac is up there

because of the inside Lewin Davis connection. I don't know. But, yeah, incredible needle drops. I think most people who watch the premiere, whether or not they liked it or not, I think nobody is faulting Oscar Isaac's performance. That's far we're seeing mostly one character. We get a little taste of a double performance.

But this is like a real showcase for Oscar Isaac and his charisma, something you and I both enjoy. And I also really liked it. I like the slow burn of this episode. We're going to get into some of the comics backstory. So there's plenty that I already knew about Moonnight. But I think to plunge people into this unfamiliar world and have, you know, the lovable hapless Stephen Grant as their guide as he's trying to figure things out and you're trying to figure things out with him. I think it's a brilliant way to start. I love the setting.

I love that we're out of out of the U.S. I think that's really exciting. Yeah. So I also really like The dash of Alps. Yeah. Mystery Alps, yeah. The slow build of the intrigue, I agree. I thought this was really well paced. I personally was very like taken by the decision to only, reveal Moon Night in full, suited up in the literally final seconds of the premiere. Also, much of what we had seen, not all, but much of what we had seen in the trailers for this season of TV we got in this premiere. Unsurprising. Yeah.

Exactly. Unsurprising. But in some cases, I thought that that, and I love to parse a trailers, you know, you know, I'm a big trailer by frame where I'm never going to say, oh, my God, I didn't like that. this as much because I saw something in the trailer. It's not that. I wondered about, you know, something like we'll talk in a few minutes about the horror elements and whether we feel like this kind of followed through on the promise of Marvel horror. One of the things I was thinking

about a little bit was like, I wonder if some of the sequences, the elevator hallway sequence, for example, didn't unsettle me as much just because I had seen them in the trailer. But the flip side, of course, is that it's like all kind of undiscovered country. from here. You know, I have a very little sense of how the rest of the season will unfold. And that's just really exciting to me. And particularly so, because this is such a standalone story

so disconnected from the rest of the MCU. We have not met these characters elsewhere in the MCU to date. And at least in the premiere, there are no connections to the wider MCU. How did that work for you? I loved it. I thought it was great.

I mean, I love an Easter egg, and I love the interconnection. You know, like, Rogers the Musical and Hawkeye was really fun. Like, all that stuff is so fun, but it just reminded me of, like, early Marvel, right? You know, where you have, like, First Avenger, and that feels like it's just a very own thing. So I really loved it. It means you don't have to worry about clashing tones. I mean, I'm sure it's all going to interact eventually. We'll talk about that in a second.

But, like, I love the disconnected aspect. I think the only thing I'll say about sort of what we've seen in the trailer versus what we've seen in the show, here's what I know, and this is not plot reveal because I don't know the plot, but Mohamed Diav has said that in the six episodes, he's considering them three pairs. So the first two are a pair, the middle two are a pair and the last two are a pair. He called them movies that that gets into the whole movies TV debate. We don't need to go there today. But, like, you know, he's considering them like three little movies.

So this is like the London chapter of the show. And I think that that is, I think that's really fun. But in terms of like integrating Moon Knight into the Avengers, like that's something Oscar Isaac has said in interviews. Like when he was asked to do this project, he was thinking about this character and how weird and fun it would be to see him as part of an Avengers team. So I don't know that they planned.

I think it's, we've been talking about this a lot in terms of the, trial balloon phase that Marvel is in where they're like floating various things and to see how people react. So like if people end up loving Moon Night, we're going to see a lot more of Moon Night. If they don't, maybe it's just a self-contained miniseries.

And that's it. I mean, I really doubt you draft Oscar Isaac into your stable and not use him again. But like if overall, the series lands with a thud, which I don't think it will. But if it does, they have that. They just be like, well, that was our miniseries

and we did it, do you know? So. Contract negotiation. Yeah, exactly. One thing that we can promise you is that we will both be making, frankly, an alarming and unnecessary number of seeds from a marriage references throughout this season. We will be, Joe.

I consider it a foundational text for this show. It is. It is indeed. You know, that point about the six episodes being broken up into the three pairs, it's interesting to think about that not only inside of this series, but inside of the Disney Plus, MCU and really also Star Wars TV experience to date. Like, obviously the first two Hawkeye episodes

actually dropped at once. Wanda Vision more than one episode dropped at once. We just learned that two Obi-1 Canobi episodes are going to drop at once. And, you know, in hindsight, even though Loki was not actually released this way, the first two episodes are certainly linked in terms of establishing who the players in the story

are going to be and how the story is going to unfold. And so it is kind of helpful to think about the double opening as this real tone-setter introduction to all of the characters and kind of declaration of intent for what the show is going to seek to explore in terms of plot, but also themes and how the arcs might unfold. In terms of those MCU ties, you know, I also found it and I love a connected universe. You know, that's about me, Joanna. Absolutely. I love a connected universe.

Boy, I found this quite refreshing. I really did. I really did. And in a few different respects, because it's not just the fact that, you know, and many other, many other people have made this observation. You know, Chris and Andy were talking about this a bit on the watch. Like, we don't hear a mention of the blip, for example,

something that has just, and understandably so, hung over and permeated so many subsequent Marvel stories. In a way, it would be strange for it not to. And yet, not only did I not feel that absence, that space where the blip would be was full of all of these other interesting and new things that we got to spend time meeting and getting to know and people and things and ideas and characters, costumes and settings all for the first time, this new lore. And then it's not just the MCU standalone quality. If you think, and you'll run us through some of the comics lore in a few minutes here, but if you think even about the comics, canon from which this series is pulling. Of course, there's a ton of Moon Knight and Stephen and Mark and Conshu and Jake, we'll talk

about a bit canon that exists over the decades and that the show is pulling from to varying degrees. But if you look at the choice to feature Arthur Harrow as the primary villain, this is barely a character with any history. This is like a minor, minor, minor, minor comics figure. And so even inside of the Moon Knight Comics canon or the Marvel Comics canon, so much of what we're getting in this show is fresh. And it's just a really fun hybrid approach, a really fun balance where we have texts that we can call upon and depths that we can mine, including Egyptian history, right, which is something that I know you are very much looking forward to diving into. but so much that will be in part or wholly new to viewers.

And that's really cool because they're just infinite possibilities then, not only for how this show can play out, but how these characters could be deployed in the MCU moving forward. There's really no limit. At the same time, and I love the standalone quality. It's a very comic book thing, right? To do a series, it's just off to the side, not connected to anything. And I like all that.

And obviously what the MCU, what, Marvel did when it started was revolutionized franchise filmmaking by making everything so connected. But we've talked before about how now everything maybe feels like a little, a little burdensomely connected. The ripples out of the events of Infinity War and Endgame are a hard thing for some of these stories to tackle. So the fact that this one's like, we're just not going to do it. Amen. Great. I'm fine with it. But I think in a In doing so, Marvel has the opportunity to go really wild with the tone on this one. And I will say having watched two episodes, I don't think, like, you know, Fagie was out here giving interviews being like Moon Night, unlike anything you've ever seen, gonna blow your stack.

And I'm like, no, to me, it still feels like a Marvel TV show. I don't have a problem with that. But I do think some of the hype and hyperbole around the show may be overpromise something, which might, you know, explain some people. reaction to it because they were expecting something really, really horror and what you're getting is a Marvel action comedy, which is what you always get from Marvel, with some horror elements.

And I don't have a problem with the balance, but I think they might have miss sold it a little, mispackaged it a little. What do you think about that? I agree. I think like the premiere, again, as I mentioned, maybe some of this is just because

some of the more startling and spooky sequences, the elevator sequence in the flat building and the Conchus march down the hallway and suddenly turning into this older woman who is entering the lift or the pursuit through the museum exhibit, the bathroom brawl. Maybe just the edge of those is a little less keenly felt because we had been primed for some of that specifically. But overall, I think this was specific to the way that Moon Night was marketed, as you just outlined, and also a little bit because we're in this moment of like the dawn, a reemergence of Marvel

horror inside of the MCU, you know, the MCU's Marvel horror moment. We've got the Marvel zombies. We have Dr. Strange in the multiverse of madness. Blade is coming. There's a, there's a great Daniel Chimpiece on The Ringer.com that everyone should check out about the return of Marvel horror inside of the MCU. And then in addition to this idea of Marvel horror and what does horror really look like when it's rendered inside of the bright and vibrant and poppy and still sometimes very dark and heavy, but also all of those other things, MCU, is not just pure horror.

It's also the violence and the extremity of what we might see inside of the MCU when you think about like the Netflix shows being brought over to Disney Plus, right? And then you compare the extent of the bloodshed and the violence that you would see in the Punisher, for example, to the fact that the camera cuts away every time Stephen turns into Mark. And we see the wreckage, the aftermath, the blood on Stephen's hand, but we don't see the violence itself. I was talking to a pal of ours who's a TV critic about sort of this idea of violence. in a protagonist in a in a marvel TV show i was like i don't think we've seen a marvel tv hero and please please do at me on twitter if i'm wrong about this but i don't think we've seen a marvel tv hero kill as many people as mark does in we don't see him do it but mark kills a bunch

people and he's our you know part of our hero in the show i think i don't feel one way or another about it i just think if if you're saying is this difference from what we've seen before that could be a But I think the idea of putting Moon Knight, Mark Specter, Stephen Grant, whoever, in Avengers Team, in a new Avengers team could be really fun. There's like a Hulkish quality to him, like the split personality aspect. We're going to talk about some like questions around mental health and how it's portrayed on this show and in the comics in general. But I think, I think having seen what Oscar Isaac is doing here, I would want him on a new

Avengers team. I really would. I'll never say no to seeing Oscar Isaac in anything, including a future Avengers team up, sign me up. I think the other thing, though, is some of what surprised me about the premiere in terms of the horror question, but the overall tone, was

kind of the dissonance that some of the tonal adjacencies created. You do have a very somber and unmooring story. Like, it is a heavy story in terms of what is actually happening to Stephen,

what we are trying to puzzle out, what Stephen is trying to figure out about his own life, what Arthur is doing. I mean, we're talking about a, with Arthur and with Amit, we are talking about this precognition and the desire to thwart free will on a mass scale. Like, instead of helic carriers and Project Insight,

inside of Winter Soldier, where this is a hydrospawn algorithm, we have an Egyptian god and a man named Arthur who's walking on sandals filled with glass that he decided to pour into them, putting his hands around people's wrists and asking them to succumb to judgment that might result in their death for things that they have not yet done. All of that is quite indefinitely. intense, but take the action sequence in the Alps. But even before that, when you watch, and we don't see, like, we see the woman's hands

as she dies. We don't, like, see her. There's someone standing in the way. But, you know, we catch that quick glimpse of her, like, gray and hollowed the face, but it's very fleeting. But, like, you don't, like, the camera doesn't linger on it. We're instead, we're on Stephen going, what's all this then, right? Like, it's, that's, that's what lightens the mood, right? He's just sort of like, where am I? What's going on? What's this? So I think that that is sort of sucking a lot of the like, you know, harrowing. To put two final point on it. Harrow and harrowing.

Yeah, exactly. Like you have something utterly unmooring, like what is actually, if we think about unfolding in that sequence of Stephen, flashing in and out of Stephen and Mark, realizing that he has a gun in his hand, that he doesn't know. He does not know how it got there. The windshield has suddenly been blown out that there's a corpse behind him. But what are you encasing that in? Quite literally cupcakes and frosting, right?

And so there's that MCUification. And wham. And wham. And wham. And wham, exactly. And it really struck me with Conchu because, and again, I actually, I really enjoyed the way this was rendered, but it did surprise me on the heels of Jeremy Slater saying, to a variety on the red carpet,

I want to bring some horror into the MCU, some scary monsters, really push the envelope. Or, you know, a quote that we've shared before on prior episodes, Kevin Feigey saying to Empire, we're going to pull back on this, right? No, we're not pulling back. There's a tonal shift. This is a different thing and calling it brutal.

So I'm going, eh, is how I feel about that. You have the intensity of Conshu, this disembodied voice, telling Stephen, who is so afraid and has no idea what is happening, to surrender his body. That's like a check for the idea of horror, right? Deeply unsettling. But then you have like, our guy, Conchu, just kind of ripping off zingers, you know, quite rude. But also there's like a almost slapstick quality to what was unfolding.

Not just with Conchue telling him to run and taunting him, but the sequence with Stephen wanting to hand over the scarab, but not being able to because of the other controlling elements inside of him, like the physical comedy. It was just a fascinating blend of tone. Conshu voiced by the incomparable F. Murray Abraham Oscar winner. This is like an all-time voice work choice, by the way. Just amazing. Incredible content. Honestly, I flipped my lid over this. So F. Murray Abraham is known best for winning the Oscar for Amadeus, but if you watch Mythic Quest or, you know, homeland or Grand Budapest Hotel or whatever, you've seen F. Marie Abram do his thing. But what I love about this is Jeremy Slater described Kanchu, and he was like, he's sort of

petty and jealous and all sorts of stuff like that. And I was like, oh, it is F. Murray Abraham's character, Salieri from Amadeus. Like, that's who they had in mind when they created this god. F. Murray Abraham himself being of Syrian descent, I think, is like actually important in all of this. And I think that his delivery is just so good when he's just like, oh, the idiot's back. Like, that's just a great, a great moment.

Tough one for our guy, Steve, but it's a great moment. How did you feel not just about the tonal blend, but that like experimental quality and specifically inside of the context of Marvel TV shows in phase

four, because of course, one of the things that we have not gotten to talk together, as much about, given when we united. One of the greatest shows that's ever been made. Your fave. Your fave. Wanda Vision. Yeah.

You know, the question was going to be, is it's going to be more or less experimental than Wanda Vision, right? And I think at so far, slightly less. That's not to say it won't go in that direction, but I think the wild, like, tour through TV history set up of Wanda Vision, I don't think Marvel is quite matched that level of weirdness yet. And I don't think it's topped it here. But again, like, it's early days or as Steve might say, early doles.

Like, you know, we're like, we're at the beginning of this journey here. It might get much we haven't seen it. But, you know, based on what we've seen, yeah. This episode is brought to by Paramount Plus. Beth and Ripper back in a new series, Dutton Ranch. Kelly Riley and Cole has a return. And this time they're taking on Texas. As Beth and Rip build a future together,

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now streaming on Paramount Plus. All right, Joe. Take us into the pages of Moonnight past. I have been reading so much Moon Night. I've been doing it for a little while. now because a really good pal of mine, like he was trying to find me a photo of him dressed up as Moon Knight. He's, uh, he's like in his 40s. And as a kid, he dresses Moon Knight. So that he's like bonafide. Like, I am a long time Moon Knight fan. Um, and so he's been sort of like leading me through, uh, the Moon Night Comics Canon for the last couple months. And, um, so basic premise is this. Spoiler for Comics Canon, even though Mallory said it, I felt like I should say it again. Okay. So, the way that that Moona was introduced into the comics was in a 1975 Werewolf by Night two-issue storyline

that is a wild read if you want to read it just to read how they were writing comics at the time but this is, Doug mentioned Don Perlin introduced him as this adversary for Werewolf by Night. We are getting a Werewolf By Night MCU version, Played by Gael Garcia Bernal. We'll see if that connects, I hope it does.

But so when Moon Knight shows up in that comics, he is dressed in, he's got like silver spiky knuckles, silver tip boots, all this stuff. He's, he is created as a counter to werewolf by night. The Moon Knight is here covered in silver in order to destroy this werewolf. That was just a two-ish... Silver. Yeah, Moon, Silver. All of that stuff.

With werewolves in some way? No, no multiple personnel, no, like, DID, no mental illness involved in this because it's just like a, like, a. Wham-Bam 2 issue in and out sort of thing. Mark Spector, hard-boiled mercenary sort of stuff. Doug then decides later to do more Moon Night Stories, and in that he gives him an origin story. He sort of retcons what happens in Whirlify Night, which is fine.

A comic book recant? Yeah, never happened before or since. First time ever, last time. So Mark Specter, mercenary, gets embroiled in some nasty business in the desert. is dying at the feet of the statue of the Egyptian god, Conchus, and Conchu brings him back to life and makes him his, they don't use the word avatar very much in the comics, he makes him the fist of Conchus, basically, and endows him with powers. And it depends on what comic book you're reading, which storyline, whether or not Mark's mental illness is something that he has had his whole life,

and a kind of thing that made his mind vulnerable to being inhabited by an ancient Egyptian god or a result of being inhabited by this Egyptian god. So it's gone both ways in various storylines. But this is like a really interesting character to track Marvel history from at least the 70s to now because there's been a lot of big-name creatives who've tackled him like Brian Michael Bendis

or Warren Ellis, Ed Brubaker, et cetera, to track the way in which Marvel has changed the way it wants to talk about mental illness because I think the way that it was originally introduced was sort of like this quirk, this sort of like funny quirk. And we're going to talk a lot more about this idea, but obviously that's not how we would want it to be approached now.

But originally, the two main aspects of Mark Spector are Mark Spector and Stephen Grant. Mark Spector, hardboiled mercenary, Stephen Grant, billionaire, billionaire, with a lot of gadgets. Also, Mark Specter, Jewish. Jewish from Chicago, son of a rabbi. Yeah. Son of a rabbi, Mark Bector. But so it's an absolutely obvious Batman ripoff is how this all starts.

Stephen Grant has, they have all, he has all these toys. He's got these little, like, basically batterangs, but they're shaped like the moon. You know, he's got his what's called his moon copter that looks like the batwing. Like, it's just... I love the moon copter. Yeah, it's clear. I mean, not aerodynamic in any way, but like, you know, it is clear, clear Batman stuff here. But I think...

And then Moonet gets, you know, as is the case with all Marvel characters in the 2000s, he got this Ultimate's reboot in Ultimate Spider-Man, Number 79, 2005. Brian Michael Bendis sort of reboots the cost. costume, reboot some of the backstory. But the thing about Moon Knight, because he's got these personalities, there's also Jake Lockley, who's the sort of like streetwise cabby. And then eventually there's Mr. Knight, which Warren Ellis introduced, which is sort of more of like a detective figure. Because he's got all these personalities, he, the kind of story you can tell with him can change from creator to creator. So like reading something like, um, Warren Ellis's run, you're doing more of like a detective kind of thing versus Bendis and Alex

Aleve in 2012 did a Moonnight comic where Moonnights multiple personalities were Mark Spector, but then it was Captain America, Spider-Man, and Wolverine. That is a wild breed and a really, like a really fun flex of like look at the toy box that we can play with. We can give you a character who thinks he's Spider-Man and Wolverine and Captain America, depending on what he needs for a fight. So I just think it's been a really interesting run of a character. I think the most, if you're looking, if you're listening to this and you're looking to read one Moonnight run or comic,

Jeremy Slater cited that Jeff Lemire, Greg Smallwood run 2016 Moon Night. This is my favorite of all the ones that I read, because it's got, it's set in a mental health facility where patients from Mark's Day in the hospital, blur as characters from Moon Night's exploits. And it reminds me of some great episodes of television, like there's an episode of Buffy called Normal Again or an episode of Lost, the show you and I love called Dave, where our heroes are trying to grapple with whether or not their fantastical adventures are just

figments of their imagination. And I just think that's really, really interesting. I think a lot of people went into this expecting it to be kind of Mr. Robody. I'm not sure this show is, but I think that kind of. comic certainly has a lot of that aspect. That comic is the one that has been both most respectful, I think, of the depiction of mental illness and taken the most advantage of how wild you can go with a story like that. One last thing I want to say about Moon Knight in this brief history is, did you know

that Moon Knight is one of the few characters who can wheel. meylyr. And the reason is, and this happened in like, I think, a 2020 comic that I read last night, where he steals, he steals the Iron Fist power from Iron Fist, he steals Ghost Rider's car, he steals the Eye of Agamato, and he steals Mjolnir. And the reason he can wield Mjolnir is it's made from Moon Rock. And since he can control Moon substances, question mark, here's a loophole. He can do that. So yeah, I mean, I really recognize. recommend there's a lot of great, and some not so great, because this has been like a complicated character throughout history of comics, but some great stories lines out there. That was wonderful,

first of all. Thank you. Thank you for that. I think it's interesting that the Lumier Smallwood's 2016 run has been cited so heavily as an influence because, and it's in an encouraging way, because as you said, we want and really hope that the show will be thoughtful and deliberate in its depiction of mental illness. And the creators and the cast alike have spoken about this at length in their press tour about the story about how seriously they took that and how important they knew it was. And obviously, you know, this is not just specific to Moonette as a character or Moonnight Comics, but the history of the rendering. and examination of mental health and mental illness across comics is quite upsetting at times. And so it is really essential to approach this element of the story with thought and care. There's a lot of meta aspect in the Lemire run because when he moved over to the West Coast Avengers, Stephen Grant becomes like a TV producer.

He and Mark are often like sort of embroiled in TV stuff. And so they're making a Marvel movie about Moon Night in that comic. And in that comic, they're talking about how mental illness is going to be betrayed in the Marvel movie that they're making about Moon Night. I think the jury is out on whether or not this show nails this because it is a very sensitive topic. But I think we can all believe that often. Oscar Isaac, et cetera, et cetera, were Mohamed Dei Diyab were really invested in getting it right. Whether or not they got it right, you can decide for yourself. But I know that there's something that they did not take lightly.

Here's something that Oscar Isaac said recently. This was to Vanity Fair, Joe. You've ever heard of it? Your old home. Vanity Fair. I'm really proud that our show gives this real honest look at what it's like to deal with mental health illness in an empathetic way. It's still shockingly taboo to talk about mental health problems and the struggles that a lot of people have to deal with. To feature a character having mental illness in this big world that is the MCU, I think we really had a rare and unique opportunity to bring awareness and try to destigmatize mental health illness.

So, as you said, the fact that they are engaging with this and seem to be taking it seriously is, you know, an important place to start. And we'll obviously, I think, continue to talk about this throughout the course of the season. To go back quickly to one of the other points you noted in the comics history snapshot there, the Batman point, I think it's been so interesting, again, not surprising, but so interesting how intentional the creative team seems to be about citing other influences and cultural touchstones instead. that we are specifically not thinking about Batman, like Slater has invoked Raiders of the Lost Ark. He's mentioned Ghostbusters. He cited both of those in his red carpet interview with Variety that we quoted earlier in the horror chat. They don't want to make a Batman one-to-one. And I think, I don't know that this is the exact reason why, but I mean a huge difference in the TV.

Show versus the comics is that Stephen Grant is not billionaire Playboy. He's, you know, a downtroddened vegan gift shopperist as he says. Stevie, you know, and so... Not Scotty, though. No, no. J.B., you fucker. So I think removing that billionaire playboy element out of it really quickly moves it away from Batman territory. So it's really fun artistically with Moon Knight is because he is in this complete black and white ensemble in some of the.

comics, I think specifically in the Warren Ellis run, they draw him in almost negative space where they just, they don't color him at all. Like, some they do. But, like, sometimes it's just sort of like the, or the way that his cape will billow out like a crescent moon. It will just be an expanse of white on the page. And it looks incredible. It's a really cool aesthetic.

And then I, sorry, I forgot one more personality, which is the inner child. There's a little girl in one run. when you have all the personality sort of crowded into Mark's head, and one of them is this little girl. So the inner child, she's called. Yeah, I'm glad that you mentioned the artistic rendering and visual palette of the 2014 run. Because that, that Declan Shelby depiction of Mr. Knight, the, as you said, detective. Just from like not only the trailers, but like the poster and marketing choices,

that the MCU has been going with, they're really featuring, you know, if you boot up Disney Plus right now, there was the tweet with the two posters side by side of Moon Knight in the Cape

and the mummified fabric strips and then the suit, you know, which is that Mr. Knight Declan drawing and style. So that's been cool to see in the marketing and the run-up. Should we talk about our characters?

talk about the goldfish problem and go character by character here. Poor Stephen, let's do it. Stephen. Well, actually, okay, before we talk about Stephen, can we talk about the accent for a second? Yes. Like, what is Stephen without the accent, right? So, a couple things. Yeah, bro.

I was not as bothered by the accent in context as I was in the trailer. And here's my unified theory of accents. I don't think, I don't know if I've said this on the podcast before. Maybe I have. If you are consistent with your accent, I can relax and flow with it because, sure, you might be from somewhere. It's when people get the accent wrong and then are just really inconsistent with the vowels, like, I don't know, a multi-emmy award-winning actor on Game of Thrones. That's when I get like a little distracted by what's going on. And so Oscar, so the accent question is really interesting because I've heard, I've seen some British people say it's pitch perfect.

and I've seen some British people say, what on earth is this? And I've seen Americans sort of go both ways as well. Oscar Isaac has said that he studied very specific people. Carl Pilkington, if you're familiar with the Ricky Jervase podcast,

Carl Pilkington was an inspiration in Russell Crane. Like he was going for a very, very specific accent. Whether or not he nailed it, the jury is out, but it was his decision to do it. It was his idea to give Steve an accent. It's Marvel's idea to put this story in London because they, quote, unquote, had too many

heroes in New York. So they put it in London. And Oscar-Eyes is like, well, why don't we do an accent? We're trying to distinguish these multiple personalities. Why don't I take a big swing at an accent? And whether or not you can hang with the accent is going to be a big question for Moonnight. I'm here for it. But it's a big part of everything, right?

Yeah, it is definitely a big part of everything. I think like many others was floored and confounded when I saw the trailer for the first time and just like, wow! And found that it was not only working for me inside of the premiere,

I started to really think about again, how intentional this is. Some of that is that, as you noted, Oscar Isaac has talked about how deliberate the accent is, but also, you know, when I talk about Stephen, we'll also talk about Mark and Contru and for a second Jake. In the comics, and we do not know, we do not know if this will be the case in the show,

though I think we can assume it will be. In the comics, Mark is the prime identity. Domain, yeah. And he is American. And so if that is also, we know he's American because we hear him speak through the mirrors, right? You got to give me the body. Give me control. If Stephen and, as you noted already also, sometimes Mark has had dissociative identity disorder for his entire life.

And sometimes he hasn't. And that has, what what Conchu did when he took over Mark and resurrected him sparks that change in Mark's life. We don't know after one episode how new this is, how new Stephen is, or if Mark is the prime identity. But if this is new, and even if it isn't, and Stephen and that creation is, he's not, if he's not actually British, then he would be affecting this accent. My only pushback on that is that Oscar Isaac has said, I worked really hard to get this very accurate. I've heard that a lot where people are like, well, of course it's not good because it's Mark doing a British accent.

But not, not, it's not, like, I'm not saying that in a, to pass judgment or whether it's good or bad, more that it is so specific. Like it has this feel of, I think you could take that quote and apply it inside of the story that this would be something that was absorbed and crafted, right? Yeah, because there's evidence. there's evidence that we're going to get into it, but there's evidence that, like, Mark is invested in keeping Stephen as a front, right? And keeping...

So, yeah, if he's carefully crafted this identity, maybe we'll see him studying those very comedians that he cited in order to, like, make this accent so specific. And Mohamed Diab did say... So in an interview with Chris Hewitt of the Empire podcast, Ma'am Md Diab's did say, we'll learn more about that accent. And Chris, I know has seen for it. episodes. And Chris was like, oh, really? So that's something that, you know, maybe they're saving

till the very end or something like that. But at any rate, it's here. It sure is. It's something. Get used to it. It sure. And they also like call it out and draw attention to it a couple times in premiere, which I think, I don't know. Again, that strikes me as notable. There's the moment in the Alps where he kind of emphasizes London and then says, like, I don't know why I'm saying, saying it that way, you know, drawing our attention to his speech pattern. And then, of course, when he discovers the phone, the flip phone and picks it up when Layla calls, and she's like, what is this accent? Now, maybe she has just never been exposed to Stephen.

And all of her interactions had been with Mark. But that accent struck her enough to comment on it and draw our attention to it once again inside of the show. So, we shall see. All right, Joe, let's chat a little bit more about Stephen and what we learned about dear sweet Stephen, our vegan gift shoppest and goldfish lover, inhabitor of a sprawling and book-filled flat portrayed wonderfully, as mentioned by Oscar Isaac. One of the things that I was really fascinated by in the premiere is that.

that Stephen believes he has a sleep disorder. He is aware enough to enact and this quite specific and intense sleep routine, tape on the door, circle of sand around the bed, ankle restraint, to prevent himself from going anywhere. He talks about how he wakes up

and doesn't have any idea how he got there. he, one of the things he says in one of the phone calls to his mom, air quotes, we'll circle back to that one, is that he wakes up feeling like he's been hit by a bus. So he knows that something is happening to him, but he doesn't know what. And inside of the premiere, it seemed to me at least, like this was the first time that Stephen had any awareness of Mark when he hears Mark's name uttered and conscious speaking to him, this is the first time that Stephen has awareness. That's Something has changed about Stephen's perception that he is breaking through to hear from Conchu, to hear Mark's name. And then, of course, in the mirror reflections, the mirror in the bathroom in his flat, later the mirrors in the museum, etc. To actually interact with Mark, to have an exchange with him. This is a pivot point in Stephen's existence. Let's talk about that sleep routine before we dive into some of the other aspects of Stephen.

premier, his museum life, his Egyptian expertise, his living statue pal, the calls to mom, the stake date that wasn't, his bond with Gus, etc. I'll just say I'd love Stephen, and I think you'll jam. It's just a whole run through of what we're going to talk about. It's a little preview, a little snapshot of what's to come here. The sleep routine, this staying awake app, the puzzles, the Rubik's Cube, the books, reading to keep your mind awake. I love this. sequence for a few different reasons. You know, we get these lines that really apply to our experience as viewers. Try to solve a puzzle. Like, we are trying to solve a puzzle. And so is Stephen, right? The lines about books and readings. Reading can keep your mind alert and focused. Imagine being

in this story you're reading. It's like a great little line and moment because it's there for us, but also there to remind us to question, to question how much of what we're seeing is real. How much can we reliably accept. And that line, like, is there an exciting chapter that you'd like to be a part of? We see one of the pages of the Eniad, the subheader. We see this rift between God and man, all of these clues that are a part of Stephen's routine, that line about your natural self, etc. But that idea of, like, an exciting chapter you want to be part of or imagine yourself part of the story, like, that's for poor little Stevie, too, right? Like, living this humble. existence and he's about to be plunged into this exciting story. Exactly. And also even just

looking at how something like that from Steven's perspective pairs with his his routine inside of the museum where we see how he wants to be the one giving the tours. He knows better than everyone. He's the one pointing out the mistakes in the posters and the billboards and the marketing. He has this knowledge. He doesn't want to be selling the jelly, the candy, the gummies at the counter. I love that moment where he, by the way, noted that they would have been eating like figs and nuts. It made me think of Loki talking about the lack of candy, the grapes and nuts on Asgard. I just loved how to like how that sequence of the staying awake listening was edited and all of the little glimpses and all of the clues and the pairing of the visuals with the lines that we were hearing. That was such a cool primer for what's to come.

Can I give you something slightly off topic, but on topic? Is it about how good you are at completing a Rubik's cube? I cannot for the life of me, but I find it genuinely thrilling and actually kind of hot when someone can do a Rubik's Q that fast. Right? I mean, not just Australia, but anyone. It's like, especially they can, like, do it without even looking sometimes. You're just sort of like, how do you do that?

Sorry, it's just not how my brain works. And so I think it's incredible. I love it. I love it. Wait, was that your off topic thing? Was it actually about the Rubik's Cube? Oh, my God. 100%. Incredible. I've, uh, I used to really like playing with the Rubik's Cube. I haven't,

haven't, I haven't, I haven't fucked around with one in years. Maybe I'll, maybe I'll give it a go this weekend. Oh, just to give me a thrill. Thanks, Mel. Okay. I appreciate you. I seriously doubt I can complete her a Rubik's Cube in my, my current state. I'm going to find out though. Bring it to the end next week. We'll see. Yeah. The fact that Mark is, of course, able to. operate inside of the trappings that Stephen has put for his sleep cycle is something that we come to understand over the course of the premiere, right? Mark can operate in full and just put all of that back before he settles back into bed. I felt so bad for poor Stephen. He has got all these things

in place and Mark is just like, do-to-do, okay, put this tape back so this idiot doesn't know I was out, like, re-pour the sand, buckle the ankle restraint, you know. That was a really, that was real crushing moment for our guy. It was very, very sad, not only like a moment that really brings it to the four, like Stephen realizing that Gus now has two fins and is not the Gus from before, which then leads to him realizing over the course of a few scenes, how much time has passed, how much time he has lost. Lost, yeah. But specifically what you were just saying, like this idea that Mark is kind of trapping and encasing Stephen, who's a part of him, a part of himself, in this, like, cocoon of lies, in this cocoon.

Coon of falsehoods, these postcards, these calls, I just found that so deeply, deeply, deeply sad. It was heartbreaking. Title of my memoir, Cochukun of Lies. Speaking of crushing, how about Donna, you know, just telling Stephen, it's not going to get that that door guy job. That was a great bit of Oscar Isaac acting where he's still just continuing with what he wanted to say and then halt to say, that's actually crushing to hear and then right back to Dask.

He's so good in this whole show. But of course, like, the most mysterious question mark exchange that happens in the museum here is when, you know, Stephen intercepts this little girl who's like putting gum and or trash inside a museum display. It will behave little girl. And he's sort of like gives her the old Alan Grant spook story instead of a velociraptor claw. He's talking about this hook that'll bring your organs out through your nose. A little something wicked McBethnod here too. Yes. Very good, very good.

And she says, and it didn't suck for you getting rejected from the field of reads. And he says, well, that doesn't make sense, bro. No, he didn't say that. Because I'm not dead. Am I? Am I? Of course, that's a moment we're all going to be like, what's happening. Like, who is this girl?

What's going on here? Right. Yes. Who is she and what's going on here? Who is she when she's going on here? I don't know. She seemed just like a little girl to me. But like, what a thing to say?

What a weird thing to say? I feel like it's just a nod to the fact that Mark does die in the comic and Consu brings him back to life. I don't think that girl is someone we're going to see again necessarily because she wasn't like beyond that weird thing she said was not acting spooky. But yeah, great. Yeah, it's interesting. I did find myself wondering,

because part of the question of more broadly, like how much of what we're seeing from any given perspective can we rely upon in full, but also just the fact that we don't know, like, is that girl a pawn of a god, perhaps, or not? Is the woman who comes into the elevator, you know, when the fingers wrapping around the door go from the mummified hand of Conchu into just this woman's hand? Like, did Stephen just not see her in the hallway? Was she there the whole time calling the lift?

Or was she not? Is she not? We don't know. Yeah, and that's 100% out of Jeff Lemire, where like, from one panel to the next, you're talking to someone who's like fantastical and Egyptian, and then it's just like an ordinary person. Yeah. And it's meant to disorient all of us the way that Stephen himself is disorienting.

Right, right. I do agree with you that ultimately it felt like that exchange with the kid in the museum was probably just there to call back to that comics canon of Mark being dead and resurrected. And I think it's probably there to set up that being the case in the show because there was another line that in the premiere that, felt like a really deliberate nod to the fact that Stephen slash Mark could be dead. There's that exchange with Donna where she says that she's going to shove him in a bloody sarcophagus if he doesn't stop, like a coffin, a casing for the dead, right? Like multiple lines like that.

I think we agree. Just feel intentional. Shout out to Stevens befriending a living statue. I think that's something we should all consider doing. I saw, okay, so I put in the notes that this is a Bertrand Crawley, which is a character, an unhoused gentleman character from the comics. I saw you put it in there too. Is it like in the credits or anything like that?

He's listed as Crawley in the... Oh, okay. Great. I didn't even check the credits, so I just feel like really proud of myself for just having read the comics and being like, I think that's a Crawley reference. I love it. Anyway, yeah, so Bertrand Crawley is this like informant, vagrant character in the comics. is here as the living statue, marks BFF.

So, sad, but nice. I love to, like, again, this is one of the many moments where you can just see Steven's tender heart, you know, and how sweet he is, not just the things that he is sharing

with Crawley, the things that he is saying, the things that we hear him longing for, companionship, a girlfriend. You know, I gotta get rid of the end. ankle restraints if I'm going to have a girlfriend. That's a real red flag. Is it? Okay. Question mark. The moment when a couple comes up and they want to take their picture. And Stephen just says, like, don't forget the tip. Yeah. You know, he's just like thinking about other people. I just found him so winning and charismatic and it was really lovely. One of the ways that the sadness was like really

something I carried with me coming out of the episode. And then this is something that a lot of people have been talking about after the premiere is if you couple and group a few of these things, the conversations with his statue pal. His conversations with beloved Gus, darling Gus, who I adore the things he says to him, like, morning Gus, my little one-finned wonder, or how we doing, Gus? You got to do the accent, Mallory. I think you Morning Gus

I don't think I can My little one Finn Wanda I can't do it I just say I won't even try I have too much respect For British people To even attempt it But he's like

Really Speaking to Gus Like he would to a friend And then that gets us to The calls to mom Well and all of that is also expositionally smart storytelling, right? Because Stephen knew such a loner, but to give him a fish, a statue, and a quote-unquote mom, there's so many questions about mom.

But to give us all that is, you know, is to give us the audience an insight into his lonely life. Yes, exactly. And right, as you say, it functions in many ways because Gus ends up being like a really crucial plot mechanic. When he notices the second fin, takes him back to the pet store, we can deduce from what unfolds that Mark has swapped out Gus for new Gus because the person that Stephen is speaking to at the pet store says, if you want to swap it, go ahead. But like I said yesterday, like he has played out this entire interaction before and cannot recall it at all. Or the many exchanges with his mom serve as exposition. But we're leaving the episode. And we can't help but wonder and ask and think like there's no one on the other line. There's no one there. Is he leaving voicemails? Did Mark set up an input? They sound like voicemails. But like, Yeah, where is he calling? Yeah, and it's not just the calls because it's the postcards. You know, we hear him talk to, you know, hello, mom, it's me, just checking in.

I got your postcard, putting it up on Gus's tank now, and we see this collection of postcards. But, you know, elsewhere in the museum, we see the postcards on a display there. Like, is he sending these to himself and he doesn't know it? Is this one more way that Mark is trying to keep Stephen trapped in this fiction that he has created? Like, it's just so heartbreaking. It's so interesting that you describe as trapped. I would call him asleep, but maybe they're the same thing. But yeah, he's trying to keep Stephen asleep.

And the fish is, I think, the biggest indicator of all of that. But yeah, all the moves, the tape back on the door, a new fish in the tank, postcards from mom. But what do all those things have in common? Like the voicemails talking to a statue who's not speaking back and talking to a fish. Like, I love a pet as much as anyone. And I like to think that HAL is talking to me all the time. In fact, I know he is. those are just one-way conversations for Stephen.

Like, there's no one on the other end there who's saying anything back to him. That doesn't mean they're not giving him anything. He's got a clear bond with Crawley and a clear bond with Gus, but it's just heartbreaking. That's... Are you saying that Stephen needs a friend and what better friend to have

than the friend that lives inside your head and is talking back to you in a mirror? I mean, I think he could have used a better friend than the waiter at the best steak shop in town who... This is just, I think this was my favorite scene in the episode. Can we talk about the date scene? Of course.

For a tracy. For anyone with culinary taste. Yeah. It's not looking so good, is it? No. Again, key in terms of the plot, he calls Dylan and we learn it's Sunday. Two days have just vanished. They've been lost.

The state was supposed to be Friday. And the scene is, again, very emblematic of the two. tonal adjacencies and dissidents, but also balancing act across the episode because there's something really kind of funny and charming about the scene, but it is also absolutely heart-wrenching. Like the despair that washes over Stephen

in ways both big and small because he is very sad that he did not get to go on this date. He is lonely and he wants that companionship, but what does the absence of that and the loss of that reflect in a bigger sense? The loss of time. there are slices of his life that he cannot account for in any way. And it was just absolutely heartbreaking. And then it builds to the call to mom, another voicemail. No one's there,

tossing the flowers into the bin, going home, eating the candy alone. Do not. Up there on the list with if you're a waiter at a steak shop, don't offer up a well done fillet. But don't give sprinkles to a goldfish. I don't think you should give confections to a goldfish. I feel like people who have eaten chocolate in sadness will tell you you don't forget how to eat. So you don't smear chocolate all over your face as far as I know. But that's what poor Stephen decided to do after his- breaking his veganism, eating a shoe leather steak, and it just smears chocolate all over himself.

It's a tough time. I'll have the best bit of the steak. That's the bit that I want. What an incredible sequence. As we transition here from Stephen to Mark, can we talk for a few minutes about the use of reflection and mirrors and puddles and all sorts of reflective surfaces across the premiere? Yeah. I loved it. I think it's a really good trick.

Something that was fascinating that I learned in an interview is like, so this is like an actor's playground, right, for Oscar Isaac to get to do at least two, if not more, in the future personalities in one. character. He's doing it with the accent, sure, but also posture. You know, he's something with Ethan Hawke pointed out in an interview. He was like, usually if you, like, you can play, because Ethan Hawke has played dual roles in movies. Like, if you can play that, usually you have a different costume or a different hairstyle or something like that. He's like, Oscar has to do it with, like, in a snap. And Mohamed Diab was saying that, like, those shots where you pan from Stephen to Mark and the mirror were like one shot. They didn't like cut.

It was just Oscar, like, changing his posture when you catch him in the mirror. They were like one shots, which is incredible. But also when he was starting work on the show, he refused to shoot Mark and Stephen's scenes on the same day. So he was just doing pure Stephen and pure Mark for a while. And then by the time they're getting to like some of these mirror shots, he's able to just sort of like switch back and forth. But yeah, this is the true joy of the series is watching Oscar Isaac do this.

But yeah, the reflective surfaces everywhere. And I think in future, you might want to be on a lookout for a mirror and a scene because if the mirror is there, like, probably there's going to be some identity chatter or something like that, you know? Yeah. Wow, that's fascinating about the one shot. that seems really hard. My goodness.

I loved how almost every single one of these reflections and these moments told us or something different or primed us in a small way for like a new idea and a new piece. You know, you have that water reflection of the museum early, the museum upside down. And it like, it made me think, you know,

not only of this way in for us and Stephen into this other half, right, this other sphere of his life. It made me think of like stranger things and the upside down and that idea of when we can just glimpse, just start to glimpse another aspect of reality, but we can't yet see your understand it in full. You know, there's something else there like waiting to be discovered. The reflection when he's when Stephen's walking away from his statue, pal from Crawley. And you only realize when the leaf drops that the half of your screen that you thought was the top is really the bottom, like this inversion of your expectation and your understanding.

That was just a really interesting visual choice. There's that fractured mirror behind his bed where as he's returning from the absence settling back in and laughing, almost in relief to realize he's home, but we see this split and this fracture that we know is looming. The triple mirror, when he's dressed up initially in his suit for the date, I love this. He says that he tells himself he looked like a knob, which was very funny. He looked great. Let the record state that he looked great.

But I love that because it's three, right? Yeah. Mark, Stephen, Moon Knight. But each of the primary three panels had like this additional sliver, you know, promising more to be discovered. other aspects, these other identities that might await, that bathroom mirror, you know, just looks literally like a moon and the horror of that moment when Stephen begins to untense. Nothing's in the bathroom. And then the head in the mirror shakes itself.

That was, I think, actually, for me, like the scariest moment. No, no, no. You know, and then Mark starts speaking to him. The elevator mirrors, you've got Stephen standing there and the immediate reflection right behind him, but then another one further back facing the other way. The museum exhibit reflections, this was something that people had really. like broken down when the trailer came out. He's walking past and the reflections stay put, but there's not just one, there's two.

So is that Mark and Moon Knight? Is that promising like Jake eventually coming in to the story? Let me just say this about Jake. I want to apologize in advance if I say Jake Locker in reference to the former Washington Husky and Tennessee Titans quarterback like multiple times during the course of our Moon Night podcast. It's not Jake Locker, but I might say that by mistake. The museum bathroom mirrors, of course, the most fascinating to parse Mark speaking. Full exchanges.

I can save us, but I can't have you fighting me this time. The way Mark moves independently of that line, line, line, line, line, line of other reflections. And then the way those reflections go away after the exchange about you have to give me control. And Mark is the only one who's there. And then you can even parse, like, how much of the matching is there as the cloth strips start to come over, Stephen. between what we see in the mirrors. It's just like so cool.

I also love some of the other visual treatments. There are multiple moments where Stephen, part of his face is obscured. Like when he's standing in the crowd of Harrow's followers in the sequence in the Alps, there's a moment where you can only see part of his face. And then there's a similar shot in the exhibit as he's trying to evade the jackal

where one of the items in the exhibit is masking part of his face and we only see a portion. Like, Stephen is one part of this larger hole. So I just thought that was all just really well done. cool. What else you say about Mark? Your guy, Mark, you love Mark Spector. You love a mercenary.

Do what? Spector, again, like Harrow for Arthur Harrow, like harrowing, like all of that. We're going to talk about that in a second. Spector is another word for Ghost. I think that's like worth talking about with Mark Spector. This idea that Harrow

when he's judging Mark says there's chaos in you, that's again, I think that's careful language. I think the show wants to use really careful language when we're talking about the DID. And again, whether or not it gets it right, I think it's trying to be careful. So that idea of there's chaos in you, I think, is an accurate, benign enough thing to say.

And then I don't know. I'm excited to see more of him. We've seen more of them because we've seen episode two. But like, you know, I'm excited for the audience to know Mark more. I'm not stressed that we didn't see Moon Night until the very very. very end of this episode. Like, I don't, I've seen a lot of costume superheroes punch people. And so I'm not, I'm not starving for that. This question of if, is there, you know, you, you, you brought this up, this idea of three reflections. Is there a third personality? This comes

down to the theory around the stake date, right? Okay. Because Mark seems invested in keeping Stephen asleep. And if that's the case, I don't think Mark's going to do anything to ping to Stephen that something's going on. What's also true is this, like, Layla character is connected to Mark, you know? So, like, I don't know. We don't know a lot about that yet, but, like, I don't think Mark is going around arranging steak dates.

And so I like this idea, this theory, that Jake, the cabby persona, the third persona, is the one who did the stake date, who asked. So, like a wilder card. Does that mean if that, if I like this theory a lot, if that's the case, do you think that Jake has the same accent as Stephen?

Because otherwise there remains no explanation for Dylan not saying, I'm really hoping that he like. What happened with your accent? I'm really hoping that he puts it on and then we get to see him put it on and it's like somehow worse. You know what I mean? Inconceivably worse. Oh my God.

What's really fun about Jake in the comics is that he has a mustache, but it's like a fake mustache. like puts on a fake mustache to be Jake the cabby. It's pretty great. We received as a little tease more than one mailback question about Oscar Isaac not having facial hair in the premiere. So a mustache, a beard, all of it would be, would be welcome. It always is. Welcome.

Yeah. On the Jake possibility front, a couple shots in the end credits stood out as. And, you know, I don't know. Like one of the things that's interesting about the math of this is when you're talking about three or four, we could say, well, are we talking just if we see a three somewhere? Should that, is that Mark Stephen Jake? Is it Mark Stephen Moon Knight? How are we kind of conto, et cetera? So the math can get maybe a little confusing as we parse different scenarios and you can make it maybe work for any different argument.

But two shots really stood out. There's one where you see it's sort of like a shoulder and cheek, like side head to shot. It's not side quad, one of our relic from a prior pod. Oh, God. You see these three Steve, three Oscar Isaacs. Sure. So whether it's, yes. And then they're all facing one direction.

And then there's one who's turned a fourth. So could that be Marks? Stephen, Jake, and then Moon Night? I don't know. And then there's another shot of like slices of a face where there's kind of the back of a head and then

three faces, almost like slivers of a moon. All of that was very interesting. I know you love to parse an end credit. I do. You love an end credit. Especially, the Marvel ones are filled with stuff.

Something Mohamed Diav has said is that a lot of the visuals that you see in the end credits were from his pitch that he did with his wife to get the job of the first place. Also, she's or so on's well for a lot of the, like, not the Bob Dylan and Inglebert Humbolding needle drops necessarily, but the, like, the Arab trap music that plays at one point, like that Sarah is responsible for that, and that was part of their pitch too. Interesting. Very cool.

How about conshu? You're our fist of consue around here. There's not much else to say. I mean, we're going to, if we have time, we're going to dive into some Egyptology. stuff around Conchu, but like I just think it's a really, really fun design is straight out of the comics, the

floating head. I like how tall he is. I love that. Yeah, I don't know. What else do you want to say about Conchue here? We already talked about how rude he was. I was struck by one particular line when he says, you will give him nothing, like real Michael from the godfather

vibes from Conchew in that moment. It's like, yeah. My offer is never. Nothing. Book of Boba Fett. Shout out. Yeah, I'm just, you know, I'm really, I'm excited to hear you chat in a few minutes more

about all of the Egyptian influences on the story. And with Conchu, in particular, these aspects, the aspects of Conchu that manifest across the Moon Night Comics. Like, how will that ultimately manifest inside of the show? How will those aspects map on? or not map on inside of the show to the different versions of Mark slash Stephen, etc. Fascinated to see how all this plays out. But one thing that's clear in the premiere is that he's not a friend.

He is an invader and a controller. Yeah. Throughout the comics, he refers to himself as Mark's father. He says, I'm your father and I made you. And yeah, sometimes he's an antagonist. Sometimes he's a protector. He's a complicated figure. It's really interesting.

Is it time to chat for a few minutes about our guy, Arthur Harrow? Let's do it. Okay, yeah. So the glass and the shoe. Yes. Truly a stunning way to start a Marvel television show. Genuinely shocking. The scene was Ethan Hawke's idea.

And it was originally supposed to open episode two. But they decided to put it at the very first thing that we see. I don't know, just to maybe alert parents to put the kids to bed. I don't know. you can hear the glass on the sound design with every step that Ethan Hawk takes in his little

sandals. But as you mentioned before, Arthur Harrow is a really, really minor character. Such a minor character that a lot of people thought they were being like Bennett Cumberbatch conned again, where they're like, okay, he's listed as Arthur Harrow, but he's definitely going to be playing something else.

He's just Arthur Harrow. They just decided to pick this tiny, character from the comics and make him their villain. And I think that gives them, yes, a lot more room to play with. Ethan Hawke has said that he got the chance to create, okay, this is a wild story. Madoeb goes to Ethan Hawk and he's like, we want you to do this Marvel show. I don't want you to read the scripts because, again, as we said, in the process, Jeremy Slater and his team will write some scripts and then Muhammad Diebb and his creative partner will like redo the scripts. That's essentially the Marvel process. And so Arthur Harrow, as he existed at that point,

Mohamed Diav's like, I'm not sure that's quite what we're going to do here. I want you to help me create this. And Ethan Hawke, you know, through his work with Richard Link later, et cetera, et cetera, has experience as not just an actor, but sort of a screenwriter as well. And so a lot of Arthur Harrow that you see here. Some of my favorite movies of all time. Which one? Which one is your favorite? I don't know if I could pick. I mean, as you know, I just the, the midnight. trilogy. Top, top, top, top, top tier. I also am a big boyhead. A boyhood head. Oh, are you a boyhood head? Oh, my God. That's interesting. I fucking love that movie. We're going to talk about that. But for me, it's, it's Team Sunset all the way. But I think, I think that, um, so this idea of creating Arthur Harrow

as this very still, calm character in contrast to the chaos that is Mark and Stephen, etc., is something that Ethan Ak has talked about, this idea of making him like this prophet, someone who, a villain with a point of view, we talked about, you talked about like that idea of pre-crime, how it relates to Captain American Winter Soldier, how it relates to minority, whatever you want to, minority report, whatever you want to call it. But this idea of like, hashtag Thanos was right, like, he's, is hashtag Arthur Harrow was right? Is he trying to make the world a better place by pre-eliminating criminals? You and I would say no, but Arthur and his footfall of glass would disagree with you.

But I think it's a really interesting creation of this character, obviously modeled on like David Koresh and other cult leader figures. The Sandals really speak to that. But that idea of like pain, mortification, asceticism, that like religious thing writes me a lot of really late film First Reform, I think, Ethan Hawk did. Another movie that I adore. You noted First Reformed in the outline. I dropped a comment in and then said you bring the whiskey. I'll bring the pepto. Do you know the real cocktail of choice around here?

Do you know the year that that movie came out, 824 sent me a bottle of whiskey and a bottle of pepto, like in the mail? Did you give a swag for that movie? No. Obviously not. You don't like whiskey. I value my life of my innards. I did not do that.

But I know you don't like whiskey based on your recent Twitter campaign against whiskey. I'm just saying you don't have to like, I really wish I were a whiskey girl. Like, whiskey girls are so cool. I love whiskey. I know, you're so cool. I'm definitely not. But I do enjoy a nice tumbler of rye. I know.

I want to Dondraper my way through life, but I can't do it. I drink tequila instead. It's fine. This is a delight. I always love when we get into hard liquor talk at the 90-minute mark of one of our Marvel TV breakdowns. Happens almost every time, actually. One of our quietly proudest traditions.

I would do a whole podcast called Tequila Talk. I have a lot to say. I already noted how thrilled I was by the Dillon Needle Drop, so I won't repeat that, but I will just say like the pairing of the lyrics and also just the story around that song, like this deeply spiritual and religious song and some of the lyrics that like pair with what we see,

you know, in the time of my confession and the hour of my deepest need. When the pool of tears beneath my. feet, blood every newborn seed. Just like pitch perfect. And I thought the needle drops throughout the episode. Obviously,

were like, again, deliberately chosen because of their apt lyrical application. For the point you made about like this, the kind of quiet, subtle quality of the performance. I mean, I'll watch Ethan Hawke in anything. I adore him. Ethan Hawk, a fave here at not only the House of R, but the ringer at large.

the gentle line deliveries and then the absolute menace at the heart of what he was saying so deeply disturbing. I think this has a chance to be like a great performance. The glass in the sandals, you know, we noted how little comics canon

there is to call upon and how exciting that is in many ways. Like that pain theory scientist connection though does feel like it's there and that, but also the religious zealotry of the self-fodulation, as you noted. I thought that he had a few lines in the premiere that seemed like real roadmaps for what we should be ready for or what might be coming.

In terms of his mission, what his followers might be thinking or expecting, what he may or may not know about Stephen slash Mark, etc. Run through a few of them. I'll try to go quickly. As quickly as I can while walking on shards of glass. While doing your pitch perfect Ethan Hawk compression? God, I don't know if I have one.

Wouldn't dream of trying. So there's that moment to his followers in the apps. I thought it was really interesting. You know, we see later when Stephen calls for help from somebody he's been working with in the museum. And then that guy reveals the tattoo and invokes its name. Okay, this is another follower. But the throng, hordes assembled in the Alps

who are just totally willing to walk up there and volunteer their souls, their hearts, to the devourer of hearts for judgment. Jones Town, baby. Really creepy. Yes, like total zealotry and fanaticism. And how deep are those roots? How widespread is that?

following. We don't yet know. I'm afraid to find out. What does he say? He commands them, first of all, when he's trying to sniff out, to smoke out the mercenary after one of his followers tells them, you know, that they couldn't make the exchange. They lost the scarab. He commands the group in Egyptian. And they all follow. That's when Stephen is left standing. So they've been brought in. They've been brought in to at least some extent. He says, it's like we're in heaven. Only it's not heaven, is it?

It's a darkness. Sometimes it hides in our hearts. We are here to make the earth as much like heaven as possible. Who'd like to go first? I'm out. That's a note for me, okay? You're not drinking the Kool-Aid. The Ethan Huckah Kool-Aid.

Absolutely, absolutely not. What clues can we glean about Ahmed, about this connection or the mission that Arthur Harrow might be pursuing? The first follower who comes He says, you're a brave man offering your soul for judgment wanting to serve our goddess, even before she wakes. That even before she wakes, Lion feels like a big clue about what he might be endeavoring to pursue. I judge you in Ahmed's name, he says, but with a fraction of her power, you mentioned this. Like, that's, again, very key.

We see the way that his scales in his tattoo swing back and forth, turn colors depending on the judgment rendered. We see the way that the crocodile head came. swings in action. This is a fraction of her power? Like, what does more than a fraction look like? Is that something that he's pursuing? To the woman that he kills. Because of sins she has not yet committed.

He says, I wish you could live to see the world we make. Like many villains, as you noted, is pursuing an ideal, but it is a terrifying one. Where nobody is left, Joe, with the power of their choices. The thing that he wants to rob is the free will. You're in? No, I'm not in.

I'm not going to lie to you. That tattoo would take me down. I'm certain of it. I'm certain I would not survive the tattoo judgment. Because of the past or the future? All the day above? My distaste for whiskey alone, I think, disqualifies me from this earth.

But I think that there's an interesting parallel there between Amit and Stephen slash Mark, this idea of like the sleeper, right? who's asleep, who needs to be woken up, and that idea of a fraction of your power, if you're just even sometimes, if you're just Mark sometimes, you have a fraction of your power.

There's a theme in the comics of like, Mark's greatest power is that he has all of these capacities that can work together sometimes. When he is, like, when he is all of his personalities is when he is strongest. And so if he's Mark burying Stephen or keeping Stephen,

asleep, he's not operating at full power yet thematically. That's a great point. There's also this insight from Arthur about the falling out, says, but she was betrayed. Was she? Steven asks, by indolent fellow gods. Arthur Harrow, one episode in, just out here calling other gods, lazy. Some wild stuff from Arthur Harrow. And there's a lot of... is Stephen kind of like mockingly like her rumps you know in response and then arthur continues and says by even her own avatar so again that feels like it's setting up a reveal to come who could that be our pal over in the new rock stars universe eric had a i thought a really fun theory about who this could be he he theorized could this be perhaps king could this be ramatut

As a prior avatar, I thought that was a really cool theory from Eric. That would be like wild and a really, now that gets back to the question of like connecting Johnson Majors. Exactly, connecting to the water universe. But who knows? Again, I think one of the things that was so compelling but unsettling about Arthur is just the like lyrical and poetic way that he speaks and is masking these really horrifying intentions in this kind of pretty, quite literally at times flowery language. Like when he's talking about the rose garden, you know, he says she grew wary of having to wait

for sinners to commit their crime before punishing them. Would you wait to weed a garden until after the roses were dead? You're almost like hypnotized by the poetic quality of what he's saying. And then you stop to consider what that would mean and how these are. are the most dangerous characters, ultimately, the most dangerous foes. The true, true fanatics. I have a theory. Do you think that Amit's original avatar was possibly Ann Hathaway on the Apple TV Plus show,

We crashed? One of the most transcendent television moments in recent memory. If you haven't seen A Hathaway, go full Navi on We Crash. You should really do yourself with Alice. Oh my God. Speaking of alluring women, we don't see Layla in this episode. We know that she is calling a razor flip phone, right? Is it not a razor?

It's not a smartphone. You know, obviously Stephen Uncovers. Apple's like we're not touching this one. Stephen Uncovers the mobile phone and the storage locker key. And there's a million missed calls from Layla and one miss call from Doucho. We'll get into that first in a second. But like, so Layla is this figure we haven't seen yet, but it is obviously here. She's the one who asks about the accent.

She drops Mark's name. So she knows Marx and she doesn't know who the hell Stephen is, is what we can intimate here. There's also like a timeline clue because she mentions months that she's been worrying and wondering. So again, is that how long the Stephen identity has existed or did he exist before that? and Mark was just in more consistent communication. The other thing I wanted to mention about the phone, now, stuff is in Marvel trailers all the time that doesn't make it into the final product.

That is not new in any way. But there's a clear, like, lingering shot in the first trailer. I think it was the first trailer of the wallpaper on the phone when it's flipped open. Like what we see in the episode is the call log scrolling through, right? It's a, in that if you go back to the trailer, there's a crocodile on the phone wallpaper, which is fascinating because that wouldn't be consue,

the crocodile we would associate with Amit. Well, a little insight into, I don't know if this is the case, but a little insight into like, so the stuff that you see on phone screens in TV and film is always added in post digitally. And so when I get screeners for things ahead of time, oftentimes the, like, I've had screeners where they look at the phone for a kid.

piece of information, it'll just be blank. And me, the TV critic walking home was like, what was a piece of information on the phone? I don't know. They haven't digitally done it yet. So my guess would be like that the digital effect either wasn't done or they just didn't want to, you know, put their Duchamp Easter egg in the trailer. So they put the crocodile wallpaper there. It's just interesting because that's like associated now inside of the episode with another, not just another character, but with an opposing force. Fascinating. Fascinating. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start.

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doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfairadio.com. This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors. New Whole Foods, Market Peach, Apricot, Rose, Italian soda. Perfect for a picnic or brunch. As is their trending mango Yuzu chantilly cake. But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sale signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. Speaking of crocodile heads. Yes. Do you want to run us? Well, here's my question. Here's a

big question I have for you. You and I were similarly like bookish indoor kids. Is that correct? I think that's true, right? Okay. And most late, very late bloomer. as a reader, but that became true for me. Yes. And I think most, like, especially young women get fascinated with mythology and they're usually like in, you're like, maybe you're a Greek mythology girl or you're a Norse mythology girl or you're an Egyptian mythology girl. Do you claim one of these tracks, Mallory? Boy, love and I'm fascinated by all of them and always have been. I guess if you made me pick, I'd probably. I'd probably. probably, if I could only have one to claim an affinity for, I'd probably have to go with

with Greek mythology if you made me pick, but I just love them all. There's just so much to purse. I was a big Greek mythology head as a kid, but I also deeply, deeply wanted to be an Egyptologist before I understood like some of the dicier colonialist aspects of that. I was dying to be an Egyptologist. I read. so many books about Egyptian mythology. I read, like, fictional books set in the world of Egyptology and tombs and stuff like that. So I am thrilled that we are here in this Egyptian mythology world to talk about a couple things. Something, like, basic to know about Egyptian mythology is that unlike the Greek gods and goddesses and the Norse gods and goddesses, where you can name sort of the primary chunk of them, there are, like, they're 15,000.

in 1,500 deities that are known my name in Egyptian mythology. They're animals, they're hybrids, they're humans. What their skill sets are, it's just really changeable. You can't really nail it down. So if some, and like a lot of them look like, like, oh, there are tons with crocodile heads and there are tons with jackal heads and there's ton with falcon heads. So if you think you know a God, you may not. It's all very complicated.

It's a long stretch of time when we're talking about ancient Egypt. But let's talk about like our main deities here, which are Kanshu and Ahmed, who are being, or Kansu, who are being set up as, you know, opposing gods in this realm. Conshu's a god associated with the moon. We're not surprised to learn that. We're talking about Moon Night. He has four main aspects, the child, the provider, the decider of the lifespan. and then this one that I can't really parse that's called Thebes Neferhotep.

I don't know exactly what that means. That's his main. He was most popular in Thebes, so I think that's like his main thing. But he's got these other dual aspects because he's known at some point in his life as this bloodthirsty god who helps kings capture and devour other gods.

But then elsewhere on the map and in the timeline, he was drafted into this Trinity as the child in a godlike Trinity with Amunan Mut you know, so again, it's really hard to nail down. I mean, it's useful what we're talking about here, but it's hard to nail down a personality of a god

when you're talking about Egyptian mythology. He usually appears as humanoid, but he can be depicted with the falcon head, and that's why we get the design of consue that we have here. Not the skeletal falcon head. That is unique to the comics, but that birdhead is sort of the nod to him, Deities of the air often had birds' heads.

The crescent moon pectoral piece that we see on the Moon Night costume, that's straight out of phyroglyphic depictions of Conchus. He often had the Crescent Moon or a Moon headpiece. I don't know why the original creators picked Conchu. I have to guess they already had a character called Moon Night, so maybe they went with a moon god, this idea of lunacy and phases and all that sort of stuff. Like, I'm not exactly sure why they picked this particular god, not even one of the, like,

main, main Egyptian gods, but maybe, again, like picking Arthur Harrow, that gives you a lot of freedom to sort of move around there. Conchus is another quality, which is God of healing. So this idea of, like, Mark Spector, mercenary, dying in the sands of Egypt, resurrected by Conchue makes a lot of sense. But that is, that is Conchue. Do you have any consue-based questions for me? I just love this.

It's a lot of delight. Even wilder, I think, though, is Amit, because there are 42 deities associated with the afterlife. They were known as the tribunal. And when you go to the underworld to be judged in the afterlife, there's a lot of different steps, again, depending on where you are and when you are, who it is. But Amit is a hybrid animal gone with the head of a crocodile, the main front paws of a lion and the back half of a hippo, which are the three scariest animals in ancient Egypt. The three animals most likely to fuck you up are the crocodile, the lion, and the hippo.

And this idea that she's this combination of land animal and aquatic animal is supposed to sort of denote that there's nowhere you can go to escape from. her. She is everywhere. Including in the the hippo stuffed animals in the gift shop that Donna was asking for, you know. Look out. Look out.

Stephen identifies the stuffed animals as a different god, the goddess. I think hippo-headed, like, because they're hippo-headed goddesses. But it's got the hindquarters. The scales on Arthur Harrow's

form that is connected to the fact that in the afterlife, your heart would be weighed against the feather and to judge whether or not you're worthy or not. And this idea that Ahmed would sit by the scales and

eat the heart if it didn't pass the test. Soul eater, eater of hearts, what she's called female devourer of the dead is the literal translation of her name. In the Jeff Lemur run of the comics, there's a character named Dr. Emmett, who

is the like, Amit counterpart. Stephen calls her the world's first boogeyman, which is so interesting. I think that's like a slight liberty that the show is taking because I don't know that Egyptian parents back in the day were like, eat your vegetables or else Amit's going to come eat your heart,

but maybe. And even inside of the show, Arthur corrects him, right? Just for evildoers. Right. The heart thing is interesting to you because that actually, if we go back to that kid, the exchange that Stephen has

with the young child in the museum, when he takes her away from the pyramid and is going very naturally and organically into tour guide mode and sharing all of this knowledge that he has, one of the things that he says is they believed you needed your heart to be judged in the underworld

and only the worthiest would be allowed to pass through the field of reeds. So he's invoking and calling back to the role of the heart in judgment. Your heart is to be light. If it's heavy, it will unbalance with the feather and then it gets eaten. What's really, really interesting about Amit is that most gods, even the scary gods in Egyptian cultures, had worshipful cults are built around them, temples dedicated to them, et cetera, et cetera. Amit did not have worshippers.

She was viewed as a demonic creature to be avoided and whose power must be overcome. So it's interesting that Arthur Harrow is building up this, like, cult around Amit because that is not, and I'm not saying that's, an inaccuracy thing. That's just an indication that he is backing the wrong crock line hippo. You know what I mean? Like, don't, don't follow omit is what I would say. So yeah, do you have any omit-based questions for me? No, you're crushing this.

Keep going. Last but not least, who are the Inniad? This is something that Stephen brings up when he's correcting the poster. Indian is a Grecian word. It literally just means a group of nine, right? So like a triad and inniad. Makes it even worse that the museum gets the count wrong, by the way. But it's a word that's often used because, you know, of Eurocentrism when describing the main group of deities.

But just like the deities in Olympus and Greek mythology or whatever, the great Inniad of Heliopolis. Heliopolis is a city that's like right around where modern day Cairo is. The nine are Atom, the father's shoe and Tefnaut the children. and Nut the grandchildren. And then you might have heard of these. Osiris, Isis, Set, and Nephys, sometimes Horace are the great-grandchildren. And that's the Eniad. And it's just, I don't know if that's going to come into play in the show.

It might. But I think if they name drop it, we should. Yeah. We should talk about it. We had, like, multiple mentions and visual snapshots in the premiere because it's not just the sequence in the museum talking about, I'm not trying to slag the, slag off the marketing team. but also Stephen's books, his reading during his staying awake routine, this is something that he's studying.

So it does seem key. I do have a question for you about this. Do you think that given the deployment across Marvel Comics canon and some of the corollaries we could make to like the Norse gods and the way that fictional Marvel as guardians are then deployed across that something similar will happen here on the show. Obviously, there are comic affirmative, so it's there. But is this going to be another example inside of the MCU of saying something that we understand from real world history has this different rendering and explanation for the origin of those myths or that history?

It's so fascinating. in some of the Moon Night comics, the Egyptian gods are not gods. They're like aliens from this place called the Other Void, which just pings Stargate to me. So a film I adore. But that idea is that like gods are aliens is something that exists in the Moonnight comics.

And I think the idea of avatar, the avatar in general, we talk, you could say Mark is an avatar of, or Ahmed had an avatar. That's not really something that's associated. with Egyptian mythology. What is true is that, you know, Pharaoh means God, King. There was this, like, idea that the pharaohs

were embodiments of the gods or vice versa. So there is, like, some history around the gods embodying human, but not so much, like, you're the fist. There isn't, like, a fist of Osiris and a fist of anubis. You know, it's not really a thing. It's sort of a comic-invented thing. And so I think you might be right

that they're giving us the Egyptian pantheon, but they're giving us the Marvel version of the Egyptian pantheon. This is a, first of all, that was wonderful. Thank you for that. I genuinely like a delight to be in your presence and learn from you. I'm serious. That was wonderful.

Thank you. You're welcome. Should we go right from that into our leg basket? Because you could pick from maybe some of the books on Stephen's many bookshelves or any number of other things. You could pick the Avatar's Blue People love that film. by Avatar what I mean. You mean the anime? Stephen Arthur Exchange

about avatars or any number of other things. Do you have a favorite? Easter. I mean, it has to be the Duchamp thing because so like Duchamp is good old Frenchy. A.K. Frenchie is there from the very beginning. He's in the Werewolf by Night intro.

And if Stephen Grant is like a Batman analog, he's like the Alfred essentially. But like a younger, more adventurous version, with a dashing mustache. So are we going to see him? I would sure like to, but I think that's a really fun, exciting.

That was awesome. And also, like, they're just scrolling, scrolling through the call log and it says Layla so many times. And it's just, when you see his name, it just,

you're like, oh, my God. That would have been my pick. But since you picked it, I will go with seeing Atlantis on a London storefront as Stephen is chasing down a bus. You don't want to talk about, you don't want to talk about Mephisto?

levels and the details, Mel. I have no doubt that Mephisto will be coming up on future podcasts. Jomi, that's just for you, buddy. You're welcome. Love you. Joanna, it is once again time. It's back. I missed this sincerely.

I wonder if we picked the same one on it. Okay, so this is a secret scroll corner. If you've never listened to us talk about a Marvel show before, we've decided, do we need to explain this for everyone who's like, what is happening? We have decided since Secret Invasion is coming. that we are going to try to identify secret scrolls in every single episode of and and Marvel film. Pick one character.

We also did this every week of a Star Wars show. Just because. Just because. Pick one character in all the worlds that we saw on this episode that might be a scroll. Easy one for me. Often Mallory and I pick the same one. Yeah. Mallory, who you got?

I think we will have the same one again. I thought this was like, maybe we won't. I actually had a couple candidates. For me, I was like, this is the only choice. After I just said I had a couple candidates, I then said I had only one choice. It was this. Should we say it on the count of three? Sure.

One. Three. J.B. Creepy little girl. Oh. Oh, that's a good one. Creepy little girl is a good one. Was she creepy?

I guess asking him about his death when he's, she would have no reason to think he had died. Yeah, that was pretty creepy. You're right. Okay. So you think it's her. Tell me your case. All right. Here's the case for J.B., the museum security guard, who he was on my list.

Is a riot. He's literally watching everything, Joanna. Like, what better position for a secret scroll to occupy than surveillance? Just intel after intel, right? And then he's got these. You're watching your odor videos. Yeah, the otter videos. And then the actual footage.

And he's got this very conveniently timed mystery phone call from mom. It's got to go. It's my mom. Is it Or is it another secret scroll Calling to talk about the missions I would also throw out as another nominee here Just because I don't want the podcast

End without talking about this During the car chase The truck chase The woman who gives Stephen the finger An immediate Marvel legend Iconic Incredible Oh my God

Is that a meme yet? If not, why not? That was just a delight I love that so much Speaking of memes, it's time for the Lord of the Memes, Joe Meaderon to join us for today's mailbag. Guys, I'm just going to be very honest with you. Yeah.

I had a long night last night. Honestly, this is how Stephen Grant fails all the time. Did you go to the Alps, Joey? No, I was not fortunate enough to go to the Alps. Was a cupcake truck involved? What a gift to be able to sleep through the flight and TSA and all of that and just like wake up in your bed? mounce in back.

Lovely. Sure, your jaw is slightly dislocated, but, you know. I mean, I mean, night wake up another country. You know, like you're in the farmlands. You're like, wow, this scenery is beautiful. Now you have to, like, fight for your life to leave. Sure, but like, you know, you got to live your lonely goat herd experience for a second. By the way, we forgot to talk about the gold scarab, but there's a gold scarab.

We forgot a few things. We've been going for a while, and yet, miraculous. Even had it. Arthur wants and needs it. That's all. I think that's a good thing to remember. It makes me remember, too, that I wanted to ask you, I'll save this for another episode. We can circle back to this. But while we're noting things, we should note that in the Scarab sequence, Arthur reveals that he recognizes Stephen, but not as Stephen, because he says, you, I know you, mercenary. So there's a recognition there. Some history, which is interesting.

We got our first question from Chonsie. Chonsie asks two questions. The first one is would you rather walk 10 feet in Ethan Hawks, glass-filled shoes, or eat the center cut stick well done? And two, does Gus join the Pet Avengers or does Alligator Loki try and eat him? Oh, no. Well, this was a really great question until that very upsetting conclusion. Obviously, number two is all Mallory. number one I guess I'm

it's like shoe leather or shoe leather right like glass on the shoe or a steak that I see what you did there eats like a shoe I guess I'm gonna eat the steak yeah I will take a well done fillet over

is there I care about the speaker game too much to is there steak sauce on the table like is there soft do I get some sauce that's a box standard so I'm like Yeah, salt pepper. No, it's salt and pepper.

You get mashed potatoes on a side. You get side of two choices. But it's a best stick shop in London. Surely they don't know. I mean, I don't think I could rock. I've got glass in my feet before it. It's not fun. Oh, boy.

So, yeah, I'm not rocking. I'm not rocking the Jerusalem ones with glass in them. Like, I'm just not doing that. But the center cut steak, that is also tough. Well, well done. If I wanted to eat rubber, like I could just find a tire somewhere. I've never met anyone who's ordered something well done in front of me. Never not once.

Medium well. Wouldn't, yeah, you hope for me, well. I wouldn't, would we all individually be like shocked if somebody ordered a well done steak? Maybe. Have I ever done it before? Who's to say? It's not. I've moved beyond that in my, in my elder years here.

Stephen had actually ordered that. And he wouldn't have, of course, as a vegan. But if he had, would have been puzzling and confounding, but his choice. The real, real crime here is that this is what the waiter decides. He is working at a place famed for the quality of its meats. And he says, the center cut filet and how would you like that? And Stephen says, good, yeah, very good, very good, yeah. He says, I'll put you for well done.

Why? Maybe he's mad that Steven's been sitting there for hours. Oh my God. I'm so glad you mentioned that. Joanna. He says that the kitchen's about to close. Yeah. Stephen waited multiple hours to call Dylan.

The date was for 7 o'clock. What time do we think the kitchen closed? 10? 10 at the earliest. This was heart breathing. He's like, oh, I don't want to Russia. I'll just eat some bread and drink some water. It's actually really funny that you brought up wait time.

different from prep time because our next question comes from J-ZAM-33 you both would have waited two days at the restaurant for Oscar Isaac, right? No, here's the question. He has her number, so surely she has his number. I would have called him.

And then like, hello? Are we still doing this? Maybe she did, but he never got the call because he wasn't himself. Do you think Mark erases Stephen's phone while he's sleeping too? Wouldn't rule it out. Tough stuff.

Wouldn't rule it out. Tough stuff. I would not wait for two days. As much as I love Oscar Isaac, I would not wait for him, nor any man for two days. I would just send a little text and say, you blew it. You fucked up, man. And I'm going to go home and enjoy some door dash. Even if he was bearded, like, you know, from, from Dune and, like, you know, you had just seen scenes of a marriage.

Are you still not, you still not waiting? You're as horny as you were off the scenes of marriage. And it's emotionally. And enjoy some meat time, you know? Revisit those scenes. And as emotionally invested as you were in Duke Lato, Trades. That's the Oscar Isaac we're talking about. Yep.

You know what? No? You're not waiting. Not waiting. How he respects herself and then I respect that about her. Okay, but like, okay. Jomi, are you about to tell us that you would wait two days? Here's what I'm saying.

For Duke Lato. I don't know if I'd wait two days at the red. Like, I wouldn't like stay posted up at the restaurant. I got things to do. I got a life to live, you know what I'm saying. I would be more understanding is what I'm saying. I would be. Too bad.

Order me a center cut. I'm on my way. Yeah. Like, medium rare. Like a normal person. How about I'll come to your crib? You know, that's the problem.

He can't invite her to his crib because he got sand on the floor. And restraints. Yeah. Bro, you got sand. You're scaring the hose. Like, it's just not going to work. Like, it's just not going to go down like that. Our last question comes from Masa.

and Masa wants to know. So I loved it, but I was wondering if there were any plot hole issues or if these are intentional. It felt like it was too easy for Stephen to escape the village. Why didn't the gun people show up until later? Why was everyone walking zombie speed to get this talisman? And then, after a cult guy confronts Stephen

and maybe kills him, he just continues his shift in the scary basement, no self-care break or anything? And most absurdly, he hears a noise and thinks there might be a lost dog in the museum and tries calling it. All right. So Stephen Grant has never seen a horror movie. Incredible question. And or the seminal sci-fi classic alien.

So he's like, just going to go after this dog. Also, okay, my, I got to say, Marvel needs to step up their CGI demon dog game. Because between this and the journals, I'm not, it's not all there. It's not as there as they think it is That is what I'll have to say about that. Yeah. I love this question and I was just absolutely baffled to realize that Stephen had just gone to work his shift

after this confrontation. I mean, I think it's the same energy as sitting at a table for three hours before you call the girl, you know what I mean? But Arthur was there. He was in the museum just because the door opened and he had a pathway to escape. Doesn't mean that he was safe. as bore out in the rest of the episode. I was like,

wow, Stephen. No. Shocking. Here's my question. The date was for Friday. That's right. Yep. Friday at 7.

He's gone Friday. He's gone Saturday. Gets back Sunday. He goes to dinner. He's not working. Is Stephen a part-timer at the museum? And if so, honestly, how is he paying for that flag?

I have a lot of questions about it. It's an expansive flat. It really is. And, you know, Donna has some harsh feedback for him about his punctuality already. So if he is missing a day or two of work there, that's not going to go over well with Donna. He was also quite rude. Donna's just trying to run her museum. And Stephen is, Stephen.

I'd like to see a little more compassion from Donna and also a little more subject matter expertise. Donna's got work to do. She's got stuffed hippos to move, you know? Oh, my God. We didn't actually answer the Pet Avengers question, and I just want to say, I love the idea of Gus joining the Pet Avengers. I do not want Alligator Loki to eat Gus.

I don't know which Gus would be joining the Pet Avengers, and as we noted, we don't know how many versions of Gus there have been. But I did find the sweet little, just one fin to Gus, so touching. Obviously, Mimo is invoked in the episode. Do you think that he has, had to replace Gus because he was gone a couple days and Gus died. I don't want to talk about it. Let's move on.

Okay. That's just. Fuck. You raised an interesting point, Joanna. If Mark, you know, Mark really a nice guy at heart because he was like, he showed up. He was like, can't let, can't let Stephen get confused about where are Gus at. Gotta go get, like a parent, right? When their fish dies and you got to like.

Quietly replace the turtle. Yeah. Right. You know, that's honestly really sweet of Mark. Like, I didn't, I didn't think about it. of like that. That's really cool. In this scenario, just to be clear,

we're describing the following as sweet, taking over Stephen for so long that his beloved pal Gus perishes from starvation, then deceiving Stephen another falsehood and underestimating him so fully that he thinks he would not notice

a literal extra thin on his dear palgus. Yeah, positively charming. Love makes you do crazy things, you know. In the words of one of our greatest scholars. Release the mark cut. Release the cut of Mark in the fish store frantically trying to buy a one fin fish.

Do you think we will get the same sequences from Mark's perspective, like later in the season? Or do you think we will only see new sequences? I'm hoping we get the Jake cut. If Jake is here and just asking girls out on steak dates, I want the Jake cut to all of it. Jake! Release the Jake cut, Disney. You heard it here.

Right. Anything else? Final thoughts? Other things like the scarab that we didn't really get into until the two-hour mark? Anything else we should hit before we go? I just have one last thing to say before you give our official farewell. Last words for me. Lighters, gay us.

Boy, okay. This was a delight. But now, Conchu has asked us to surrender the body and surrender the podcast to Mark. So that's a wrap on today's episode. Thank you to our Steve.

Our Stevie. Steve. Steve. Steve Alman for producing this episode. Our Mark. Mercenary. Arjuna Ramgapal for his additional production work on this episode.

who wasn't here, you know, much like Mark, but did we catch a glimpse or two in a mirror at some point? Who can say? An hour moon night, Jomea Denneron, for his work on the social for this episode and for his work on the Rubik's Cube that again, he has revealed us that he has completed. Remarkable stuff.

Please tune back in. Iconic, iconic. On Monday, we implore you for the House of Midnight Morbius team up. And then, come back to the feed on Wednesday and Friday, respectively, for the Midnight Boys, Poo, Pee, episode two, instant reaction, and the house of our deep dive. Until then, we wish you can live to see the world we pot.

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