The Ringer-Verse - 'Ms. Marvel’ Episode 4 Deep Dive | House of R

Episode Date: June 30, 2022

Mal and Joanna team up and dive deep into the fourth episode of 'Ms. Marvel'. They start with Mal giving her perspective and thoughts on the show up to this point (6:54). Then, they discuss the theme of Kamala being torn between two worlds (14:00). They wrap up with pointing out some Easter eggs, and answering some listener questions (1:08:30). Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Associate Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

From the host that brought you to Coding Westworld. And Westworld, the recapables. Comes the Ringer Prestige TV podcast on Westworld. I'm Joanna Robinson. I'm Danny Hyfitz. And I'm David Shoemaker. Welcome to Westworld Season 4 in the Prestige TV podcast feed, where we're going to break down every episode of Westworld season four.

Every Monday, the day after the show comes out on the Prestige TV podcast feed. Wherever we get your podcast, but get them on Spotify. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcer, cognitive colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Trimfaya, proper training is required.

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probiotics and 20 years of scientific expertise, Activia is one of the easiest and tastiest ways to start your gut health ritual. Try Activia today. Enjoying Activia twice a day for two weeks as part of a balanced diet and healthy lifestyle may help reduce the frequency of minor digestive discomfort, which includes gas, bloating, rumbling, and abdominal discomfort. Did that train from that night? Yes. The bangle is trying to tell you something, bata. I don't know what. But I do know that you needed to be here with me to figure it out.

I don't know how to figure it out. I feel like I'm trying to piece together a hundred different things and I just am breaking more than I can fix. That's quite a puzzle. But then, if you have lived like I have lost, What I have. You learn to find beauty in the pieces. Welcome back into the ringerverse, your nexus podcast feed for all things.

Fandem. If there's something fandom related, guess what we're podcasting about it? We're 24-7 podcasters now. That's the new reality of the ringerverse. I'm Joanna Robinson and joining me today with a bag of the mildest biryani she could find. it's Mallory Rubin. Hi Mallory. Oh, Joe, you're wearing a shirt that says New Jersey.

What is this look? I'm over every moon conceivable to be here today to talk to you about Miss Marvel Episode 4 for the first time with Mallory Rubin. We've talked about it lately in our, you know, in texts and chats and stuff like that. But like we haven't gotten to do the classic house of our deep. dive. We've been a little busy with someone named Obi-Won Kanobi. So, Mallory and I are here from final two episodes of final three episodes of Miss Marvel to give you old deep dive. Before we get into that, some program reminders, because this isn't

the only thing Mallory and I are doing this week. You're hearing this on a Thursday. Tonight, at midnight Pacific time, Netflix is dropping, I don't know, 90 hours of stranger things, two episodes, many hours of content. Mallory and I will be doing a Friday episode about the first episode of the final installment of season four of Stranger Things, right? And then on Monday, even though it is a holiday for most people, we will be here with a recap of the second two and a half we hear long episode of Stranger Things. So that's two stranger things deep eyes coming.

Might be our first successful record a podcast shorter than the runtime of the episode challenge. I think we can do it. No promises. No promises. And then Wednesdays, on Wednesday, the Midnight Boys, Poo, Poo, we'll be back with a one-two punch of the latest episode of the boys and Miss Marvel. So you'll get that from them on Wednesday.

And then we're into Thor, Love and Thunder territory. So listen, it's all happening. We're here for all of it. Your pals on the pod on the mic. So, Molly Rubin, how can folks make sure that they are aware when our episodes are coming out,

our schedule? What do you think? You know, one thought that I have is that they could follow the pod on Spotify or wherever they get their podcast. Sure. And, you know, another suggestion. Yeah.

Follow our myriad social feeds. The ringerverse is everywhere. If you have a social media platform that you frequent, you can find the ringerverse there. I mean, if you're still out there rocking peach, I don't know. Anyone use peach? You remember peach? Chris Ryan and I had a few fun days on peach.

That's the name I haven't heard in a long time. A long time. Other than that, we're everywhere. You can find us. You can enjoy Jomi's wonderful Lord of the Mem action. And of course, you can get links to pods when they publish. You can get prompts for mailbags. You can get programming reminders and announcements.

You can get it all. That's how social media works. The voice of the youth on this podcast. The one more thing to say. Oh, my God. Real hello fellow kids energy for me there. I'm officially 100 years old. You can't see it right now,

but Mallory has a skateboard slung over her shoulder and a backwards baseball cap. Um, one more thing before we get into this episode conversation is that, of course, we've got a friendly neighborhood spoiler warning for you. Everything that is on the table today is up through episode for Miss Marvel, but also the comics. We can talk about anything that happens with the comics. We don't care. We're not going to talk about, oh, I don't know, movies like Thor Love and Thunder, which we've both seen.

We're not talking about that. We're going to save that for later. That's not on the table. I can't wait to talk about that, though. Thrill. over the mood to talk to you about that. But yeah, we're here to talk to you about all things.

Miss Marvel Comic Con. Let's go. Season one, episode forward, seeing red, written by, oh, just a host of writers. Sabir Prasada,

A.C. Bradley, Matthew Chaunce. And it's directed by Sharmine Obaid Shinoi. And Sharmine is a very accomplished Pakistani director. And I thought, visually, I don't know, we'll get into this, but there's a lot of, there's a lot of comment about Marvel action, Marvel TV action. And I actually thought this episode had some really top tier Marvel TV action for a couple reasons, which we'll get it to.

But before we talk about that, before we talk about some punches, some hard light, I want, you know, you're here on the mic. I'm here on the record. It's true. How are you feeling about Miss Marble? so far. What is your journey been like? How's it going for you? Oh, I love, I just love this television show. I'm having an absolute blast. I'm so excited to finally talk about it with you. I've missed having the chance the last few weeks to really just revel in this truly pleasurable viewing experience. I think that this show is so vibrant and charming and charismatic and full of life. And it's like my

favorite kind of story inside of a genre rapper, which is, yes, of course, there is the legacy and the mythology and that is being parceled out episode by episode beat by beat. I personally had very, I have very little Miss Marvel Comics canon awareness. I'm only now taking my first foray, as you know, Joe, because I'm a text to you into the comics. It's all new to me. And so it's been really cool to kind of run those parallel tracks of the comics of the learning about this aspect of the canon,

the coming of age story. Just my favorite thing. And you put that inside of a superhero story and a genre tale and I'm in. You add the, again, that just charm and the heart that is so ever present. And the show is just so steeped in the journey of discovery in so many different entwined respects.

And I just love that. Learning about your friendships, learning about your family, your history, your culture, your own community, the parallels that exist across a family, across generations, and how that teaches you something about your own experience. It's just really been a delight week after week. I'm having a blast. Excellent.

I'm so thrilled you're here. This week on the show, we're headed to Pakistan. We're in Pakistan. We're on the flight and then we're in Pakistan. on. We should say for the record, oh, I just let me say more broadly. I wasn't able to be on the episode last week, but I've gotten a lot of emails. People find going out of their way to find an email where they can reach me and sending me the longest emails I've ever received in my life about this show and about our coverage of this show. Awesome. And I've been doing this for a long time. I've got a lot of long emails back of the throne's days. I got like, you know, dissertation link. But I think the way in which this show is so important for a very thirsty, underserved audience and the way in which they want to applaud us for getting something's right.

And then like rightfully hold our feet to the fire for the things that we like misstep on. And I always appreciate that when it's phrased as nicely as so many of these emails have been phrased. You know, it just underlines to me how important this show is to so many people. And that makes me emotional. So anyway, thank you for those long, long emails. I'm sorry I didn't address any of them on the pod last week because it wasn't there. But please keep sending them. I love to read your thoughts and your feelings.

And actually in prep for this episode, I watched a breakdown. You know, you and I love a YouTube breakdown of an episode of Marvel TV. We're fans of that. But I watched one in Hindi. Not that I could understand the Hindi, but I was just, sort of like interested in what the person was kind of zeroing in on. And then going through the comments, which were all in English and seeing what they were most excited about was a really fun thing for me to understand, you know, who this episode is hitting and where. Yeah.

It's awesome. It's a really special show. Um, so yeah, so we're, we're in Pakistan. It's actually we're in Thailand. They filmed us in Bangkok. But there's some exterior, some B-roll that is from actual the streets of Pakistan. So that's really exciting. And this is directly from a storyline in the comics where Kamala goes to Pakistan in Volume 4, issue number 12. There was a QR code in the episode for that issue. So they're like, we're doing the journey to Pakistan.

And like I think it's, I just want to ask you like this idea of going back to like a home country or the homeland as like a right. a growing up right of passage. Do you have any like thoughts or feelings or connection to that? Oh, I love it. You know, I think that it allows us as an audience in tandem with the characters who are central to the story to better understand the roots and the connections across time and across generations. And I think that one of the things that this show has done so deftly, and this has been

the case throughout, but you really felt it in this episode because we are not only with Kamala, but we were with her mother. We are with Nani. and then we see them with each other as well. And you get the opportunity to identify the through lines and the parallels and when those parallels bring people together and when they divide them apart, right? The idea of borders and divisions very present throughout this episode and this story so far. And one of the moments that really stood out and, you know, the performances are just so wonderful on the show. I mean, everybody who's been covering this Marvel on the Ring Reverse through the first three episodes has rightly touted.

the performance which are just consistently excellent and magnetic across the board. The scene where we get the wonderful, like the leg massage is this a massage of your way of getting back at me. We have, you know, the taffy, the beautiful taffy conversation. But we get this really like illuminating exchange. It is absolutely true. And even after Baba left you, you continue to cling to these fantastic theories. And Sana'an Nani says, I just thought I'd share them with you. I didn't need your stories, Mommy, I needed my mother.

This was like one of those moments where not only is it very compelling emotionally, and it just works on that level. You're watching two people work through their history and their past together, but you understand so clearly then the way that Kamala's mother has taken something that she is still working through in processing, this struggle with her mother and her history and her history, her life. And it is then manifesting in the inversion where her daughter is craving the exact thing that she got and didn't want, right? And the way that these like cycles and repetitions

and inversions perpetuate across a family dynamic, I just think is like so interesting. And I just also thought it was such a lovely, I mean, it was just such a lovely setting, the beautiful moment up on the balcony between Nani and Kamala. You know, you found my secret spot. Like, it was a gorgeous episode. It was so full of life. And again, like I as a viewer am learning so much as I watch that. And the moments where you realize that your central figure,

your hero is learning so much too in tandem with you. It's just a really like a rare and cool thing. I want to talk about this like really inherently important theme of Kamala's character in both the comics and this show, which is this idea of like torn between two worlds. And she gets it double time, right? Because she gets this sort of, am I two American for the Pakistanis or two Pakistani for the Americans sort of theme that we've seen explored a lot in sort of first generation kids

in America? But also, of course, she's finding out that she's got this other torn between two worlds identity in terms of being part human and part. gin. And what I love about that, what I love about like the spicy food stuff, like her being embarrassed that the food is too spicy for her. This is straight out of the comics where like her grandma had to make the food like white level spice for her and stuff like that. And like all of that stuff is really charming. But what I love that's baked into the concept of this show that's not in the comics is this repeated idea that the reason she's able to harness the power of the bangle

is because of her fractured identity that like this bangle has you know these scary immortal people have been chasing this bangle but they have never been able to harness the power of it the way that Kamala has and you know it's explained to her by the character well lead who she meets in this episode like we believe your genetics could be the answer to why it is that you can shape the noir here, the nor being this light. Your humanity links you to the matter of this world. It makes your abilities unique. And so that fractured identity, which so many people see as a weakness, as like, I don't

fit in anywhere, that's the core of her. That's a source of her strength. And it goes back to this like sort of Joseph Campbell, hero's journey idea of talk about this a lot when we talk about like mythological heroes and even superheroes is that the wound, this idea of the combining the. wound with the gift. So like the wound for someone like Superman is being shunted out of his home, right? He's exiled from his home and separated from his humanity.

But that's also the source of his strength because he's from a different planet. That is why he is as strong as he is. So like tying the wound to the power is such a strong, interesting heroes thing. And to do that with this idea of like, I'm split between two worlds, first born, a American immigrant experience, I just think that that is really a fascinating concept that they really expanded on out of the comics. What do you think? Oh, yeah. I think that's exactly right. And I really, I love that. And this, the numerous different versions of the two worlds, like there are plenty of moments in the, in the episode, as you know, where there's like a lot of levity and poking fun, whether that's with Kareem or around the camps. fire or with her cousins or any number of other sequences, right? There's even like a moment where her mother just says to her,

don't be weird, right? And so much of, so much of the pull that we feel to this character is that the idea of like weirdness is inherent to identity and like a thing that you have to grow to embrace and love about yourself, right? And finding the other people in your life who help you embrace that is like such a magical thing, much more magical ultimately than. any superpower, right? And so like one of the moments that I just loved so much in the episode because it's this big idea, right? And it applies to all of these then specific, specific exchanges

and moments was like Kareem just talking very broadly about, you know, introducing us and all to the Red Dagger's, but talking really about illumination, perspective, seeing something in a different way. And he had a couple lines. You know, he says sometimes you have to look beyond what's right in front of you. welcome to the red daggers. Perhaps we can teach you to open your eyes. And that's just a real gift to find people accidentally or otherwise in front of an Ant-Man mural or otherwise who can not only help you find the clarity

because there is like an actual quest element to this that Kamala is chatting about with Kareem and Wili to the Red Dagger sequence, but also with Nani in this exchange of like the trail of stars and is this the train we're seeing and trying to piece together what she is even seeking and that idea of seeking comes up I think we'll talk about that later on the actual inscription of the Bengal in a very compelling way well you're not just in a really deftly told nimble story you're not just seeking a plot answer you're seeking that in tandem with some sort of revelation or epiphany about who you are yeah and that's going to Self-discovery.

Those things are going to unlock each other in a wild-told story. And I really think that that's happening here. Yeah, I love that. To yes and sort of some of this multi-generational women stuff that you were talking about. I like I just I really love with much love and respect to Kamala's dad and brother who I love. I love that it's like we're talking about three generations of women here, right? Grandmother, mother, daughter. And something that I want to talk first about.

Nani in this idea of partition. And her studio, her obsessive, like, yarn wall about partition and like the art that she's created, drawing, you know, painting her mother because she doesn't have a photograph of her mother or, you know, having to create. She's like, you dwell on what you lost or you could create it, you know? And I just, I thought that was just a really beautiful concept. Incredible. But I do.

I do want to talk really quickly. about partition, this like very traumatic thing, obviously. But one of the items on the wall in Nani Studio references Mountbatten and that pinged the crown fan in me. I don't, do you watch The Crown at all? Oh, yeah. Okay. So Mount Baton, of course, a real life figure in history, but also a significant character in the

crown played first by Greg Wise. and then by the great Charles dance. And is a really interesting character, but thinking about his, he was, you know, so he was the vice where he had oversaw partition. And a lot of people are just sort of like, make him and understandably the main villain of partition.

And the fact, you know, he, spoilers to the crown and also real life. Mountbatten was assassinated in 79 by the IRA. Right. And it's a really shocking moment, right? not the least of which, because we've been with this character for so long. Also, he's played by Charles Dance.

But there are so many resentments swirling around this one man who is painted as both a kindly uncle, and then you learn more and more about sort of all the nefarious things that he had his hands in. And so I just think that that was just, I don't know, it's just a really interesting figure to crop up in this, that he is also in the crown kind of gentled and, and lionized in a way, but also there's just this like really,

it's like a lot of blood on his hands. And I don't know, I just thought that was a really interesting figure. Any thoughts, any Mountbatten thoughts or feelings? Not really remit. Now I'm just, I can't wait to talk about the crown with you.

Great. In future seasons, not surprised to learn that we're both deeply devoted to the crown and of course have long been devoted to Charles Dance, Sir Tirewin himself. Just hearing you like say all that though and and sketch out the way that these You know that that

I thought the only way I could hold on to what we had lost was to create it myself like deeply emotional deeply family rooted aspect of that room and that discovery is entwined with those Those Those snippets of actual real life history Yeah And to your question from earlier about like do I how do I think about these returning to your to your roots and families across time moments like I actually I don't know if I was thinking about it in this

way watching it but now hearing you talk about these like three generations of women inside a family and and confronting their own history I'm thinking about like the sequence where Kamala is walking through town with her cousins and there's like you know again like not like an ill-intentioned or anything, but that she has that line about, oh, this is like Florida, right? This is where, like, old people are. And then there's this, like, very serious reply from one of her cousins. And, you know, my, my maternal grandparents, my mom's parents, my Nana and Papa are Holocaust survivors. Yeah. And I, like, now just hearing you say all this, it makes me think of, like, a moment when I was a kid and visiting my Nana and Papa in. in Florida, in Del Rey Beach.

They eventually came to live with us in Maryland. And I was really young at this point in time. But my, my Papa was spreading yogurt. And it's impossible that this is like a slightly apocryphal story, but this is how I remember it in my mind. Yeah. He was spreading yogurt on a bagel. And I was just like, Papa, what are you doing?

That's disgusting. Why would you be spreading yogurt on a bagel? Yeah. And he was like, if you went, you're, of your life without eating without being able to access food like we did like you would never ask a question like that and you know i think about things like that because like i was just with my sorry getting emotional i was just with my family last weekend and you know a few weeks before that i was back in balsmore for the first time in three years because of covid and i actually hadn't been to

the house that my mom and stepdad are currently living in. They had, like, moved right before COVID. And I was just, you know, I talk to my mom all the time, but, like, you just have these moments where you're, like, pulled back into the history of your own family and your own life, right? And just, like, walking around and she has this, the house has changed and her life has changed. And she has this one picture of my Nana and Papa that has just been with her every single place she's ever been.

And I don't know, it's just like a really, it's just like a really lovely thing to think about. And, you know, she has like her associations with that and her stories. And I'm sure her siblings have different ones and they have like common moments that they think of and totally distinct ones as well. And, you know, I had the privilege of like really knowing my grandparents. And again, they lived with us for a while. And they're both, you know, they've both passed away and they're gone now. But I think a lot about like trying to read about all the stuff I don't know about their lives still. And these historic horrific things that they lived through.

And like why? Why I don't know more about that? And like what I can do to change that. And I think the answer to that is just to like ask to ask my mom or ask other people in their lives. And like, again, I just love this show so much because even though I just said I wasn't like necessarily like consciously thinking about that watching the episode, talking about it with you, you just made me think about it.

And that's like a really cool special thing, you know? So I don't know. I just think that like, I thought it was interesting on The Midnight Boys they discussed whether it felt too soon to change locations in that way to go from Jersey City to Pakistan. And I felt really glad that this happened here where it did

because I think that not only in terms of like the lore and the history of the clandestine, and the Bengal and all of that, Kamala understanding her family and who she is, given in particular what we've come to understand inside of the show about how little opportunity these family members have had to explore these things together. I think it's like imperative for her journey and for that self-discovery that we were talking about earlier that she'd be here. And Nani even says that, right? Like the Bengal is trying to tell you something, Beta. I don't know what, but I do know that you needed to be here with me to figure it out. Like, what a cool idea.

I love, first of all, thank you so much for sharing that. I love, I love podcasting with you and talking about story with you. It means a lot to me. The, when Nani says, my past part of Pakistan, my roots are in India. And in between all of this, there is a border. There's a border marked with blood and pain. People are claiming their identity based on an idea some old Englishman, Mountbatten, you bastard, had when they were fleeing the country, how is one to deal with that? Do you think you're ever going to figure it out? But what's the rush? And then also, but then if you've lived like I have lost what I have, you learn to find beauty in the pieces. And again, like these are just, these are things that she needs to learn

from her grandmother. And when I'm talking about that original wound, it's like the original wound here is this, is partition and this idea of people flung on one side of the other of something. And, you know, similarly, we'll learn more I hope about Aisha and all of that. But like the gin being exiled from their homes is, you know, such an interesting parallel.

And again, very different from the comics. But I think a really smart way to understand. line the importance of story. Partition is part of the comics. It's in there. But I think making this story about these characters, these Jin figures who are trying to get home, allows you to dwell even more in the idea of partition, what it really meant and what it really destroyed and what you can choose to do in the aftermath of that destruction. Do you hold on to your hate understandably, but do you hold on to your hate the way that some of these villainous figures in this show are holding onto their hate? Or do you take another approach? And I think that's

really interesting. The way in which I related really personally to these generational stories that we're getting here is the stuff with Muniba and her mom. You mentioned the leg rub and stuff like that. But I just think the stuff with the toffee boxes where she's like, why do you have toffee boxes everywhere? right? Like this is a sign of your declining mind. Why do you have toffee boxes everywhere? And she's like, because you love them as a child. So I held on to them. Like, of course, you know. And so she's still thinking she's still thinking of Muneva as a child, right? In her own way. And I flashed back immediately and viscerally to like one Thanksgiving at my house where I was, you know, maybe my early teens. And I was, you know, my grandma, at that point, my grandma, my mom's mom would come and

stay with us for Thanksgiving and for Christmas, like just overnight. And I remember being in the kitchen and watching my mom at her rope's end dealing with her mom and my mom and I didn't get along. And so watching her turn into a child dealing with her own mom. And it's such an important part of growing up is realizing either that your parents are just humans like you are. There's a human and you're just human. or maybe even more viscerally that they were a child like you were a child and they're capable of

still being thrust back into that child position when they're around their own parents if you get if you're lucky enough to see your parent interact with a grandparent like that's an experience you can have and then one more step beyond that we have another experience in life is when you start to watch your older parents lose the ability to take care of themselves whether that's true of nani who's out partying before she has to pick people up the airport. I don't know. But Bonim is like maybe it's time for you to come stay with us. Maybe it's time for me to mother you, you know?

And all of that cyclical stuff is happening at once. Very definitely in this episode. Centres is on this idea of Toffee. For me, my favorite part of this episode, there's a lot of spectacle. There's a lot of running through the streets. It's Kamala coming home and her mom is eating the toffies and he shares it with her. And she says, you know how mothers are. And it was just like, you know.

She's just enjoying this childhood delight, which is she's just eating these toffies that she loved as a kid and Mala can't eat them because they're hardest rocks or whatever. And it's just this like really beautiful moment. And it's the kind of like pause depth. They didn't spend a ton of time on it, but it's just like the show has room for some of that family stuff in a way that I feel like a lot of other Marvel shows or even superhero shows in general because they're so focused on the supernatural threat or the action. or whatever, that they don't take the time to flesh out those characters and those relationships. Yeah, I love that moment, too. Not only because there's an element of like bonding and, you know, laughter and just this,

like, sweet kind of innocent tenderness, but there's a moment through this, just this, this little thing, sharing a bite of food with somebody of enhanced understanding of who your mother is and as you're saying like what that history is. And, you know, to your point about that idea of, of Nani still thinking, you know, of her as a child and what the tofis might represent in that, in that sense, like this kind of almost like frozen in amber attachment to a past version of their family, a past version of their life. There's also this like related, really lovely way of looking at that, like she never stopped thinking that she would come home. You know, she never stopped thinking that they would be able to like find their way back to each other.

Then this idea of like the trail of stars, this magical pathway, this bridge that leads you back to somebody you love, this like embodiment of protection and guidance that can be in a box of candy too. You know, there are so many different ways that like you can make your way back to each other. If you just like you said like it's those, it's that line of wisdom from Nani, you know, you learn to find beauty in the pieces. And like the toffee in a way, it's the pieces that represent. that's the thing they no longer were able to share together. But that piece can be the way back to each other too. It's just beautiful. There's this, I don't know if you have any connection to, like,

candy from elsewhere, but we have these family friends when we were kids that would come visit and they would bring this candy from their Italian. They would bring these candy from Italy called Torone, which is disgusting. It's white and it's really sickly, sorry, to my taste. Not great. But it came in a very specific tin and they would always bring it. And my sister and I would always pretend that we were delighted to have it because we were little polite children. And then we would be like, why is this?

Sorry to offend any Italian listeners. I hope you love the Toronto yourself. But that's just seeing that tin. I know that tin so well. And just seeing it. It doesn't even say the candy. It's just like the design of the tin. I know what's inside of it.

I know. And like that, I don't know. It's a visceral sort of interesting memory. This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors. New Whole Foods, Market Peach, Apricot, Rose, Italian soda. Perfect for a picnic or brunch. As is their trending mango, Yuzu chantilly cake. But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sales size. storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. This episode is brought to you by Sweet Green.

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Think green goddess chicken. Garlic aoli. Crumbled bacon. Corn salsa. 40 grams of protein. Made to keep up with whatever comes next. New sweet green wraps hit different. Order now at order.com. This episode is brought to by Paramount Plus. Beth and Rip are back in a new series Dutton Ranch. Kelly Riley and Cole has a returned and this time they're taking on Texas. As Beth and Rip build a future together, peace will have to wait as they face corruption, danger, and a ruthless rival ranch willing to protect its secrets at all costs. Legacy is a beautiful thing, but only if it survives. Dunton Ranch starring

Cole Hauser Kelly Riley. Annette Benning and Ed Harris now streaming on Paramount Plus. Meanwhile, over damage control, we have some notes. The toughest of looks. We have some notes about the strategy here. I have a lot of compliments for this episode, but damage control,

I have no compliments for you. Any thoughts or feelings about how easily Najma and her and her pals escaped? I think that ultimately if everybody inside of the story is kind of in on the bit and like we're just actually supposed to think that everyone who works for damage control is a dummy and a doofus and like not a real threat, then I love it, right? Because like the ability to just so easily thwart them then becomes kind of comic and like thematically resonant. if they're supposed to be antagonists of consequence, then it just like makes it really difficult

to take them seriously. Yeah. But in general, you know, we haven't really gotten the chance on Mike to talk about, obviously we talked about it in our Spidey pod, but here I haven't gotten to just say, damage control could fuck up 500 times

if it means I get Stewie in the MCU. Like, I'm content. I completely go. What a treat. It's been noted by many people that damage control, this specific prison shows up in the She-Hulk trailer and it is where Blonsky is being kept in the She-Hulk trailer. And we know that Blonsky just like fucks off out of his cell,

out of his cell any time he chooses. So, you know, across the board, damage control, not controlling much damage, it would appear, right? Man, Blonsky. Missed that guy. Well, it's great to see him in Shang Chi. Can't wait to see him again. I have a theory.

You'll see more of him soon. All right. So let's talk about the red daggers. I think there's some really interesting casting going on here, right? So like Arama's Knight is cast as Kareem. And I know. Did you watch Into the Badlands at all, the AMC show? I didn't.

No. Okay. Not a great show. But it had some great thing. Like it had some really interesting world building going on. And it had visually very. cool, great costumes, and then some of the best martial arts fighting I've ever seen in my entire life. Daniel Wu, who is showing up on Westworld this season, is a phenomenal, like, he was the

lead, and he has these fights and this red coat, and it's just like everything that you could possibly want. Aramis night played his sort of like protege, like the young and training, which just means that this young man has done so much martial arts training already in his young life. And so I feel like that really came through in casting both him and Farhan Akhtar, who is a, who is a Bollywood star. And not just like a Bollywood, but like a Bollywood star. Like in that Hindi video that I mentioned, like most of the comments were about Farn Akhtar who shows up as Welleed. So like the two actors that they cast is Red Dagger. The two members of the Red Dagger collective. I don't know how many others there are out there. That was a really funny Midnight

Boys chat about how many members. you need to actually be a secret society. Maybe it's like the Sith where there's like an amassment. And like, while Lee had to die because Kamala has joined the Red Dagger's. Rule two, never worked out poorly for anyone in Star Wars show. Always great. Always great.

But I just, I think, I think that specific casting just really shines through in a lot of the action that we see in this episode because you've just got like two friggin' crackerjack actors who know what they're doing when it comes to movement, as opposed to great actors who have a couple weeks of training before shooting a Marvel show. So I thought that was really, really good. They were just like both absolute delights. Yeah. Incredible to watch.

I don't know how quickly Kareem might head to Jersey City, if that's something that's going to pour over from the comics into the show. I would love it. I thought he was just exceptional and I hope he's very present in the story. I thought, I thought what lead was just so compelling and also like, you know, we talk often about how inside of an MCU tale, there's gonna be

multiple moments, whether it's in a movie or across a Disney Plus series where you have like a lot of exposition downloading happening. And a lot of that, a lot of that fell on him. Yeah. Specifically when it came to Lenore and the Vale and the Bengal.

I was like wrapped. He had like maps and charts and 3D like. Yeah. Yeah. No, he's fantastic. Like honestly gone too soon. But it's, it reminds me of that scene in Wayne's world where they replace the random actor in the gas station with Charlton Heston who like had to deliver.

for this beautiful monologue and they like stop the movie and Mike Myers is like can we get a better caliber of actor here and they just like tap Charlton Heston for this tiny thing and then I'm like oh they tapped a Bollywood legend for this like very small role but like gives it weight gives it excitement for people who are watching and excited to like see uh you know all of Pakistani you know culture represented here or stuff like that and and like real emotional heft too in in in between and entwined with all of the mythology downloading because Like he has that lovely, there's that lovely moment with the garment handing over the garment. And he says to, you know, he says, like there's history in every thread of this fabric.

So you always remember where you came from. You're not alone. And that, that idea, you're not alone. It connects to everything we've been talking about today, like learning to really just embrace the ties that bind when so much of what is driving the story is about the borders that divide. When you find the ties that bind, that's like a really powerful thing. I love this idea that like Kamala is slowly building her costume out of these pieces that come from these various people, right? So like the scarf, which we know from promo material is going to like wind up being in the, you know, it's in her comics costume is going to wind up being in her end game costume here.

You know, she puts on this like long red shirt and the blue vest. That's not the final look, but it is it is a reference to her costume. The mask she has is what Bruno gave her. You know, so she's like taking these pieces and putting together her costume from all of various identities. I love it. I want to talk about the many, many boyfriends of, of Marcon. Same. Incredible, incredible, incredible player.

We love her. I think it's fucking great. Oh, I really applaud it. Like, the Midnight Boys, that was a rare misstep from them. But I think, what I think is even more interesting. And they let us know that this was coming with a shot of Felicity in the first. I warn people, I'm like a love triangle if, if not a square is coming, because that is all Felicity is about.

One of the saddest moments of my podcasting tenure was not getting to talk about the Felicity thing with you. Because I watched every second of Felicity and it's one of the most formative viewing experiences of my life. Okay. I'm still deeply in love with Ben. Okay. I was going to ask you too better to be out.

But you knew the answer. I did know that. I did. And your soul, you knew. I like barely out of my mouth. I feel like we've talked about Scott's been before. Anyway. I think I once told you that, you know, living in L.A. now for nine years,

when you see celebrities walking around and I'm very rarely like, oh, my God. But I saw Scott Speedman once at the Arklight parking lot. And I was like, oh, my God, nearly fainted. I'm trying to think of the, no, I'm not ready to talk about the celebrity. I saw that most dazzled me. Okay. So, oh, a tease for the future. Yeah.

Kareem, Kamran and Bruno, I think are such an interesting specific trifecta here, right? because they represent three aspects of her experience, right? There's like Bruno, our white American friend, this is the guy she grew up with that represents her American side. We've got Karim who represents her Pakistani side. And then we've got Kamran who, like her, sort of bridges both. And I like that she is finding something to fall in love with or be interested in in all three of these avenues. They're all three of them parts of who she is. And I just, I think that's really clever.

And, you know, I don't know how it's going to turn out. I have my favorites. But, oh, I don't know. Who are you shipping? Who are you written for? I wanted to show an apology to Comron because I haven't had a chance to be on the pod since it was revealed that he wasn't a villain. Like, he is in the comics.

So my deepest apologies to Comron, you are very attractive and also very nice. And I'm sorry. You were left behind by your own mother in this episode. episode. Brum a moment for him there. I have to go with Bruno, and I think that connects back to my, like, team Noel roots, you know, I'm now Team Benton, but like when I first watched the show, it was very much Team Noel on Felicity.

So, yeah. Bruno is such a null, honestly. So, oh, my God. I'm Team Bruno. How about you? How about you? I am instantly and deeply Team Kareem. I was absolutely captivated.

It was just like a delight. I have a lot of affection for show Bruno, though. Comics Bruno in my early reading already quite different. But yeah, I don't, I mean, I don't, Jomey was saying on the Midnight Boys that he, like that people don't like comic Bruno. That wasn't my experience reading the comics. I do like him.

But, you know, there's a little bit more. of the like unattractive null possessiveness in comics bruno there is in show bruno so yeah right i love that what you're what you're saying though about how each of them each of these potential love interests like represents and reflects a different aspect of um kamala's life and one of the things that i really i really love about that is that you know they have we haven't seen them all interact with each other but obviously we got a lot of camarad in bruno time and that like it's a for their perspective for each of the guys, that's a threatening reality. Like, that is something to resent and fear because it's something that someone else has and can

bring to her that you, like, cannot. Whereas to her, it's this, like, whole constellation of possibility and everybody in the relationships you have with everybody can be, like, unique. And I think also, like, again, to connect to this, like, larger theme of discovery and embracing the pieces and the different aspects of who you are and where you come from. Like she doesn't have to actually make that choice. It's not like a one or the other, right? It's like all of these people can be a meaningful part of her life. So I ship them all in some ways. And, you know, I always love, like with Bruno, I always love a guy in the chair.

It's a favorite thing of mine, delightful. But I, and I feel like episode, I've liked the whole series, but I feel like episode one was the most like exciting. This is something. different than we seen before. There was so much, like, extra added artistic zhuge to it. And, like, their little mission to go to Avengers Con and stuff like that was just like, just like so cute and their partnership and all that sort of stuff. So I think I'm going to hold on to my Bruno feelings from, from episode one. I would be very content with a Bruno outcome too.

I love him. I think he's a delight. He's so sweet and giving, you know, I, the world is full of a lot of, like, deeply selfish people. And Bruno, just out there. helping be a burn a doing whatever he can to make somebody else's life better I want him to be a little more selfish

I'm you know the the Caltech thing right is a yeah it's an important thing for him to follow his own path as well because that's how you could be the best for somebody else ultimately I agree man I really agree I want to talk about something that happens with Karim in the comics that I really love is that like Kamala shows up to Pakistan she meets him he's like a friend of the family so it's very much get your bingo cards ready

because here's my Buffy reference. It's very much like how Buffy meets Riley, her T.A. The bingo cards. We haven't talked about the bingo cards on the pod yet. Incredible stuff. The mal is horny square. My parents and my journalism professors must be so proud. We should say that someone in our, I don't know,

because it was texted to us by someone. So I don't know what the origin was. I think he said they were in the Facebook group, I believe. So someone in the Facebook group, I guess, made. Bingo cards for both the Midnight Boys and House of R, like, individual cards. And Joe references Buffy is one of them. But Mal is horny, like, should be the center square for sure, the gimmie, right? I believe Steve's response to that was free space question mark.

Oh, God. You know, love our listeners. They know us. They do. It's great. So here's that, here's that Buffy Square. Buffy meets Riley, her T.A., and then later, like, encounters him as this, like, super soldier commander out on mission and they find that they both have superpowers right so

kamala meets um kareem is just like a deeply hot even in common form friend of the family that she's like oh hi right and then she goes out uh you know superhero on patrol night's doing the superhero thing in in pakistan and she fucks everything up because she doesn't know anything about what it's like to superhero in Pakistan she doesn't know anything about the implications of what she's done and he shows up as red dagger and he's like you didn't check with any local heroes. You just blundered in here thinking you knew what you were doing. You don't know what the hell you're doing.

And I just love that moment in the comics where he's like, listen, listen, this is Pakistan. And you might be Pakistani, but you don't know what you're doing here. And I just like, I really love that. Yeah. So I don't know. I mean, I don't know if Kareem is going to come to America like he does in the comics. I don't know if Berta is going to go to Caltech. I suppose those are Miss Marvel season two concerns.

Let's talk about Miss Marvel maybe bleeding into the Marvels the next time we're going to see Kamala in the movie. With all of this Nourgin, clandestine, the unseen, like so much terminology going on fast and loose here. In last week's episode, we didn't get a chance, you and I haven't had a chance to talk about this. But in last week's episode, when we get the Bengal flashback, they dig it out of the rubble and it's on this blue arm. Yes. Which makes a lot of people feel like that bangle is connected to the Cree somehow. I shouted that out loud. That seemed.

Did you just say Cree in your in your house? Like, is that what happened? Kind of. Yeah. Sturted out of it. Cree. A Leo pointing meme. Okay, great.

Also in that flashback we see on the floor of that of wherever they are, the 10 rings carving. Yes. Which has been a theory that we've been floating since the beginning of that the this bangle might be connected to the rings, you know, the rings, the bracelets from Changxi. We've been talking a lot about realms, right? That there is this other realm that the Jin come from. Yes.

And to talk about realms and how they are different from the multiverse. There's a great breakdown video from our pal, Eric Voss, over on New Rockstars, about realms versus universes versus multiverses and sort of what their different meanings are. But Talo, which is the realm in Shangchi, the thing to remember about that is that it is like, you can't just stumble upon it. It needs a gateway to open it in order to enter it. And it exists on earth, but no one knows of its existence. And the inhabitants of Talo that we meet in that film, like one example being played by Michelle Yo, are these sort of beings of light that are taking human form. So that might be how we should best think about the gin that we mean here.

And one thing we learned in this episode is sort of this idea of being a gin while he says, if Thor landed in the Himalayan mountains, he too have been called a gin. So it's like there are many beings like this, but they're called different things depending on where they emerge around the world. I don't think of Thor in the same category as the residents of Talo. So that's where it gets a little confusing for me. but like there are some, they're attempting to draw some connections between this. What is your understanding of where these things overlap

and where they're distinct? So it's a great, it's a great question. Before I attempt to answer it, I will note that two things. One, I just realized I'm wearing my Morris T-shirt today. Didn't even think about it, but here we go. Oh, my God. What a joy.

What a gem. Good old Morris. I, so one of the, and I don't even want to say contrasting moments because I think that part of the point is that we're supposed to be thinking about these ideas in tandem, not as oppositional instincts,

but like one of the different kind of frameworks or attempts to parse all this to distinct from the the will lead actual rundown an explanation of the Nordimension, the Bengal, the clandestines, etc., was Nani, when Kamala asks her about who she is, what does Nani say to her?

She says, I don't see what the whole fuss is about. It's just genetics. You're focusing on the wrong things. It's not about how I see the vision or if you are a gin. The important thing is that when the bengal was used the last time, it saved my life. So obviously, like our inclination as deep dive podcasters, it's not going to be to hear that and say, doesn't matter. Nani. Noted. We're no longer going to try to figure this all out. But I am going to try to hold on to that because I think that it operates in conjunction with ideas like the open your eyes. Perhaps we can teach you to see lines from Kareem just about like maintaining a open mind as we attempt to sift through all of these different kernels and nuggets of canon. So, yes, the idea of how universes and dimensions relate to each other, I think you already, you know, you already explained it quite well, I think. I, the idea of this veil, the map that we see initially with the two layers, like, it made me think, and obviously, like, these are not perfect corollaries or comps and there's a lot of culture and history that is connected to this particular version that is not.

present in these other examples, but or is present in different ways. It made me think of like, it may we think of a couple things. One, his dark material, specifically the subtle knife. And that is, of course, more akin to the world. Multiverse. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can work the tip in and you can make your way to another world. Work that tip in, Joe.

Not sure we've got a lot of like ring reverse contains adult content on this pod, but. But you found a way. Just smile. I guess like, like, happens a way. Happened naturally. But that idea of like, it's connected to our world but hidden, right? This idea that there are realms and other ways of life and other people and other

existences that are always just right out of reach. That then, of course, makes me think of stranger things. Another show that is very present and top of mind for us. And quite literally in that case, because we get the description behind the veil of Nour that separates our world from theirs. dream follows will lead there and says, nor is the energy of the realm, the veil, the clandestines, even your powers are made of it. And this, this then ensuing rundown of the threat, of

breaching that veil, of tearing it down and this nor dimension overtaking this reality, our reality. So that makes me think of the upside down, right, and the threat of the gates. And not that I think the lessons of those two stories are necessarily the same or again that it's like a one-to-one comp, but inside of this show and a lot of what we've been discussing today about like learning to accept and embrace something that you might be led otherwise to fear. Like I think feels very important here that if the nor dimension is only presented or viewed as a threat, like that has to be one of the things I think ultimately that that distinguishes are heroes from the quote unquote villains of the story

is how can these things actually, how can you find that bridge and that pathway? How can people live the lives they want to lead without one of those things needing to come at the expense of somebody else's way of life? How can you? And we heard the Bruno exchange in the prior episode about like, well, maybe things go boom, right?

If you try to do this, like there are risks and dangers and real, real threats. But is there a way to pierce that border to tear down that divide and that thing that stands in as a divide without necessarily having to risk one reality or the other. That feels to me like very central to what the final two episodes need to unlock. Right. This idea of like maybe you can send them home without there being an incursion or perhaps all that is going to bleed over into the marvels and perhaps Carol Danvers is going to be instrumental somehow in figuring out how to how to do this. We also like we know

that there are supposed to be two bangles. So how is that going to work? Right. I actually have a theory about that. What is it? Well, we'll get. Do you want to hop over to a theory corner? Tell me what your theory is.

Well, I love a Joe Robinson theory. I mean, like, the episode ends. We're going back in time, right? Yes. We rip a, rip a terror in time. And we're back in partition, right? And the very common theory, it's not even a theory at this point. we could just like probably, we'll be surprised if it doesn't happen,

is that the trail of stars that Sanaa, you know, takes back to her is something that Kamala, like, lays out for her, right? There's a question of like, is Kamala running around Allah back to the future too, by the way, a film that Kevin Feige has a lot of interest in. So is she going to be running around like Marty McFly and Back to Future 2, running back on a timeline or whatever? Or did she swap places with Isha? Like, is she actually like, like quantum leaping or Russian doll season twoing, if you prefer, into like Aisha's body, right?

Right. Yeah. But, but a, but a main question is the chain of custody of the bangle, which is like, if she brings the bangle back in time and that bangle is somehow the bangle that, like, is then passed down to her, like, how does that work if she brings the bangle back in time and sort of something? But I'm like wondering if there's a way you could bring the bangle back in time. And then if two bengals are in the same place back in time, even though they're the same bangle, there's two bengals. Do you know what I mean? Are you a fan of the television program Dark? Yes, yes.

I wonder how much. The timey, whimyest show we've ever seen in our entire life. I love, love, dark. And I wonder how much room there is. in the final two episodes of season one of this show to introduce a lot of like bootstrap paradox questions, you know, that like as interesting as I think that would be,

that would make me a little nervous just in terms of like a story structure perspective. I do agree with you though that, yes, it seems like almost clear that because again, we get the like, so the specifics of we hear, when we move back in time, we hear this is the last train.

And we had previously heard Nani say last train. So we know we were at this moment in time. And I agree that it seems very likely, even maybe a lock, that Kamala will be the one who unleashes the Trail of Stars. In terms of how that might then connect her to her great grandma, that makes me think of the inscription then, like, what you seek is seeking you. Okay. First of all, incredible piece of, you know, sort of prophecy mumbo-jumbo, what you seek is seeking you. I love it, right? And I mean, I don't, I can't remember this is a big O square for you. But like we got to also hop on a Potter reference here, of course, right?

Like Harry looping around, Prisoner Rascovan, my favorite of the Harry Potter stories. And I don't think I knew that. Yeah. Interesting. I love that. Being the patroness that rescues him, right? He thinks it's his dad, but it's himself, right? bronze wrote again last night so you know it's like that which is one of the most I think one of

actually I think maybe the most beautiful yeah moments and and potterdom for me and so yeah so this idea that she could be there she could be this origin story this like this thing that saved her grandmother that put her family on a certain path all that sort of stuff yeah I think it's that I love that would be so so beautiful and also like well leads response when after he shared what the inscription, what it said, and he said, and Kamal's response was,

is that like an important message? And I think there's a version of the show where that plays as like pure kind of like chuckle comedy, right? Yeah. I thought his response was genuinely profound when he said, I don't know, but it must have been important to someone. Like, to me that that cuts to something central

about how prophecies are deployed in stories that I think a lot of stories really miss. Like so much of the way prophecies are ultimately fulfilled is because of the perspective of the person who hears them. Like, you know, you end up setting into the self-fulfilling prophecy. The thing that you are seeking to avoid. And just like this idea of connection and the ties that you don't yet see

because you haven't been able to open your eyes. Like that really does feel like it would fit with all of the themes of this episode. Well, and the thing that I love to about the wording of that, what you seek is seeking you. It's not who you seek is seeking you, but what you seek is seeking you, which, sorry, I said that, like, three times too fast. But, like, I think that, like, my apologies to anyone who's listening to this at 1.5.

But I think, because if you say, who you seek is seeking you, that's, okay, that's kind of, that's cool, that's spooky. What you see is seeking? What is seeking? What is the thing? Not what is the person, but what is the thing? Is it my destiny? Is it, you know, like, what is it? Is, and I just, I love that.

And the loop nature of it. Again, if we're on, if we're talking about a causal time loop, because there's been a lot of questions of like, if Kamala goes back in time, is this a Loki situation where she's creating a fractured branch of reality? And it's like, no, if it's a closed causal loop, if she was always the one to create the trail of stars, you know, to save her grandmother, then that's not creating a new reality. That's just fulfilling the, the existent causal time travel loop. I love causal loops and I love time travel.

you and I didn't get to talk about Loki, but I am thrilled that we are here. You're right that probably a bootstrap paradox is too much. And it's possible that the second bangle, if indeed we get a second bangle, but it's possible that the second bangle is something that'll show up in the marvels or maybe never at all. But I just thought this idea of like we need two to get home and we have one, you know, something you think about. In terms of the realms, there's something else I want to talk about. Really quickly, this idea of one reality sort of laying on top of ours,

but we can't see it. I love the one shot in the first fight between pure dust and veil of shadows quote stuff there. Really? Continue. Where do you think Vecna was during partition? There's one. I actually really liked how the fighting worked in this episode.

Her still bumbling through and figuring all of her stuff out, but how the hard light, like how Kareem is sort of like running around on the hard like two, I thought it was kind of cool. Like he runs down her arm at one point. I thought that was really cool. But like this- Tremendous Donkey Kong cool too. Just iconic.

In that exact moment, the Ninja Turtle Donkey Kong Exchange, she's laying on a sheet of hard light right above him. And it's just sort of this idea of like, oh, reality, I mean. If I had said that, you would have said phrasing to me. I know. Okay.

Saw your face. I saw your face. I saw that coming. But, you know, Like, yeah, there's, it's a, it's a classic meet cute sort of sexual, you know, I was surprised that when the thing broke, she didn't land on top of him. They, she landed to the side of him. That's all there. But also this idea of like, oh, reality hanging above our reality.

I just thought was a really cool visual. This thin veil between. Totally. I love it. If we're talking about realms. Yes. We obviously need to talk about the realm we might be most familiar with, which is the quantum realm, right? Not an ant man.

Scott Lang slash Amman has been brought up in almost every single episode. We really lingered in this one too. Really lingered in front of the mural. And I can't tell if it's because like we're wanting to lead into the quantum mania like realm conversation or if Paul Red's going to show up at some point in this show. Like I don't want to, I don't want to get our house up. That would be fucking amazing. I think like I love that.

Bree, we feel like Bree showing up, that wouldn't feel like out of the realm of possibility. Paul's showing up, I don't know, but I don't know what- Go teach a podcasting workshop at the high school back in Jersey City? I don't know what him being there would, I mean, this has to connect to quantum media, right? We have to be on some sort of quantum realm beat here. Do you disagree? I don't disagree. It's like it would seem strange to have these.

repeated, recurring, Scott Lang, Amman mentions, and we're always going to associate the quantum realm with Ant Man. And I think we've now officially entered the point of phase four where we're like,

boy, remember this time a year ago where we like spent weeks on in talking about whether we were going to see a version of King in every single ensuing MCU story until Quantum Media and then it hasn't happened at all, right? Like, I...

Just my dream. I think that that all totally tracks. I guess my question becomes, you know, we got the Thor mentioned here. We have this quantum mania possibility. Obviously, as you just, as you just noted, the, we literally know that this, this world is connecting the characters are going to be in the Marvel. So we think we'll see Captain Marvel here. You just sketched out the 10 Rings, Shang Chi connections. There's this like beacon, Bengal possibility, like how many other properties can this can this connect to.

Without it feeling suddenly like diluted or a little too I mean I think mainly the Marvels. It feels like that's a strong clear. She's going to be in it. We're leading towards that. That might as well be Miss Marvel season two sort of vibe, right? Quantum Mania in the quantum realm. I don't know.

I mean, it's not that far away, that movie. And we have been promised by Kevin Vigy himself that we're going to get some sort of clarity of an overarching structure plan. It's obvious to him, he said. Sure. Classic. I feel like there are nine possibilities. I think they've made nine obvious possibilities. They're like, obviously we're doing secret wars.

Obviously, we're doing Young Avengers. And I mean, it's probably secret wars. But anyway, we're off the train tracks here. Anything else you want to say about like theory corner? This is not Theory Corner, but just because you've mentioned the action a couple of times, I just have to ask how you felt about the car chase because I know that car chases are a, this is a passion of yours and specifically you're on the record on the Rings and the Ringer podcast network saying you do not like and will not watch any car chase that doesn't include

the most Vespa gang. Did you miss them? This was so much better. Don't you think this was so much better? Yeah, this is really fun. And it ties back into her driving lesson. It didn't make me think my TV was broken, which is still a confounding thing that happened

during that Bova sequence. It's bizarre. Yeah, I enjoyed this, Chase. What do you think that most of us the gang is up to right now? It's just hanging out with each other, getting some new mods, challenging that piece of garbage, Lortha peel on his watermonger bullshit.

it. Oh, my God. I'm always really excited for the Lorth Appeal season of Book of Boba. All right. Wanted more Lorth Appeal. It's true. Let's talk about Easter eggs. Okay.

I need to start here, first and foremost. Magnum the dog. Beautiful pop. Your new, maybe best friend. It's a little gorgeous, gorgeous creature. What a coat. Most of the pals that we listen to and watch their YouTube breakdowns or whatever, feel like this is a reference to Magnum PI.

I don't know why there would be a magnum. PI reference here. My first thought was the ice cream brand, which is very prevalent overseas. You can't go anywhere in like Europe and Asia without seeing Magnum advertisements. And they are, they definitely have Magnum ice cream in Pakistan. So that's why I thought the dog was named Magnum. Do you have any thoughts or feelings? Does it Nani, doesn't Nani seem like someone who would name a dog after an ice cream bar rather than Tom Selleck? I don't know. She does. Yeah, I like that.

I don't know. I think, like, for a lot of people, their main association with Magnum is going to be with, like, a certain size of condom. Yeah, I know. I have nothing more to contribute. I know, but I don't think that's why Nani has made her dog that. Oh, my God.

Anything else you want to talk about in the Eastereric section? We hit a couple of these. The nap pillow, our dear sloth. Just a delight. Wonderful stuff. It was great to see the, great to see the slot. Maybe. I like a on the Ant Man mural, I like the Adrian Alfana call out to great, great Miss Marvel comics artist. So I love it when the creators get their names.

Like, you know, it's usually like a street name or a business name or whatever. But I love, I love license plate sometimes. I guess that's usually an comic issue. And the street signs are usually the creator names. Yeah. I love an into the Spiderverse and he's like scrolling through his phone and there's just all these names in the phone in the like in the context of that one. All right.

Secret scroll. This is really easy for me this week. I'm going with the cousins. The cousins. It's a hundred percent the cousins. Who left Kamala in the middle of the street in a city she doesn't know? Also the very strange comment

about the sloth baby nap pillow. Like I didn't know you were in here with someone. Those cousins were bizarre. I don't like as characters bizarre, only explanations that they're secret scrolls. Oh, and sometimes we have people ask us about this because I don't know, they're just like starting to listen to us for the first time. A scroll is an alien in disguise in Marvel lore. We met them in, you know, in Spider-Man and elsewhere,

Captain Marvel, obviously. It is a running bit that Mallory and I just pick a secret. might secretly be a scroll in whatever we're watching it, be in a Star War or a Marvel property or the boys or whatever. Who's a scroll in the boys? Oh, my God. What a great question. Had to be some secret scrolls at HeroGasim. Had to be. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think that that maybe the 50% very prolific ejaculator. So that's the secret scroll. It's my new favorite character name. Prolific ejaculator. All right. Mailbag time.

Yeah. Jomey isn't here, so it's my job to read out the mailbag promises, which means I picked the weird and wonderful one. So you're welcome, you're welcome, everyone. We're going to start with John, who asked, you and Mallory are tasked to form a four-person Pakistani boy band group, but can only pick the guys from the ringer. Who would you pick and what would the group be called?

Okay, Mallor, here's my first question. Are we tag team forming this, or do we each? create our own boy band. Let's tag team it. Okay. Number one draft, I think. Yeah. Is Jomey a dinner on who when I was in L.A. last weekend was like next time karaoke, right?

Okay. I love this. Jomi. Yeah. Jomi always loves to chat about the musical questions that we get in mailbags as well. This is a great one. Sticking with a karaoke theme then, my number two has to be Chris Ryan. Great.

Because I once had the pleasure of seeing Chris Ryan at Grantland karaoke and I was riveted. He was incredible. Like his voice is amazing or he's just like charismatic on the mic? All of the above. Like actual rock star energy. Seriously. He sang Mr. Brightside and it was like transporting. Great.

Great. I am going to rely on your institutional knowledge because obviously like I spent far less time here at the Ringar's. and also interact with fewer people than you do. So, I mean, my next draft might actually be, I don't know why this just strikes me as really funny, is Ben Lindbergh, good old Mike face, Ben Lindberg. You know, Ben proposed marriage on stage at a concert. No, what concert?

A Sloan concert. And, you know, their child is named Sloan. And I think most people who have been reading Ben for years think that that's because of the analytics conference. And it's not. It's the band. This is really charming. Oh, my God.

I don't know who to do for the last pick. It's the rag tag team of Chris Ryan. I mean, no matter what Arjuna is their manager, let's just, let's just put that out there, right? That's what I'm saying. Arjuna is the manager. Isaiah Arjuna, do you want to get in on this? You want to help us forge our band? Do you have a nominee for our final spot here?

The final, final pick? I've been thinking it's tough final spot. Isaiah, you can vote for yourself if you want. Yeah, if you want. Yeah, I could probably do it. Yeah, I think I could do it. All right. Love that for you.

This is great. So it's Jomey Isaiah. Chris Ryan and Ben Lindberg. Good. Honestly, genuinely rag tag. What we call this group. Boy. It's got to be some sort of like ringer pun, right?

Do we think that all the songs because of, you know, the nature of this being a Miss Marvel, ringer verse, norculture, podcast exercise, that all the songs are going to be about, like, genre stories? because then instead of like we could go with 10 rings as a play but it could just be 10 ringers maybe then we'd need to add more people to the group i don't know i just don't know shang she and the four ringers employees i'm going to think about that and also we will take suggestions if you guys have a better boy band uh name please let us know at us on twitter or elsewhere and we'll we'll we'll find out and then we'll make this happen at some point at ringer khan 2024 we will make this boy van happen, Isaiah, you get to start practicing right now.

Okay. Dennis Roden asked the most important question. How sticky was that guy who fell from the drinks trucks into the spill bottles of grapefruit soda and whatnot on a sticky scale rating from everyone, please. Everyone just being us because we're here. What's the scale? I think the stickiest. Like, is the stickiest not like a movie theater floor that like someone has spilled soda and, No one cleaned it up.

So it's just been baked into the floor of the, you know, and your shoe makes that sound as it sort of like peels off of the stickiness. Yeah. That's top tier sticky for me. Sounds like a fruit roll up being. Yeah. Classic. Movie theater floor soda.

Stickiness. Yeah. Top. Bottom are those like, do you remember those like, quote unquote sticky, like hand things that you would get as a kid that you could like throw? and it was just a sticks as something. But as soon as it got like a fine layer of dust on it, it stuck to nothing. I might, this might be,

you might be too young for that reference. I need Van here. Hey, walk me through this again? There was like, it was like a, you know, like you get like sticky gummy, toy stuff as a kid, right? Isaiah says you knows what you were talking about. It was like, it was like a sticky hand thing. It was on a long sticky thing and you could just sort of like slingshot or throw it.

Yes. And you would stretch. Yeah, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, like the stretching powers. Okay, Arjuna's with me too, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know what you're talking about. But that's the bottom of the sticky scale. Because the stickiness didn't last.

Yeah, as soon as you touched one thing, it was then like not sticky anymore. Okay. I'm hanging with you. I'm back. Okay. Those were I did not like those. Those had a weird smell, I thought. Oh, absolutely bizarre.

So the non-sticky, sticky, sticky hands and the sticky movie theater floor. Where are we with you? I'm at like a somewhere. in the middle, which I'll go with like ring pop, right? So like it can be, it's like, you're not necessarily at the beginning really thinking about how sticky it is. You're just like, boy, this is delicious. And then by the end, you've got like an infinity gauntlet of candy coating all over your hand. Is that what happens? I've never had a ring pop. Does it just like, what? Does this like goop all over your hand? Well, I guess it could be something about the way I eat

them. Maybe I might need to be like reflecting. Do you slobber your, your, ring pop? I don't think so, but I don't know if that's like, maybe that's like not a normal thing. I don't know. I think because like, you know, you've got the, it's just on top of your finger. And you're just sort of like,

yeah. And you're like, yeah. No, I've never had a, I've never had a ring pop. I mean, I know, I know what a ring pop is. I've just never had one. What's the, what's the push pop? I mean, I don't think the push pops, the ice cream experience is as sticky,

but you can also get some, you can get some drip with a push pop. I know, ooh, ooh, what about, I'm about to give like a universal experience that everyone's to be like oh yes I've experienced that gelato on a hot day in like

I lived in Italy for a little while when I was there I went from like sorry I went from like American who doesn't know shit right to like I've lived here for a little while and like watching American tourists get the like piles of

gelato on a cone and then try to walk around Florence as it just like, yep, like drips an avalanche of stickiness down their arms. I'm like, you amateurs, you got to get the cup and you got to go small because you only have a limited amount of time with that gelato. So I, unlike you, I never lived in Italy. But I did go for a week once during my semester abroad. And when I was in, when I was in Florida, it was very quickly identified the, the triple scoop cone conundrum.

And my solution was to get three. different orders at slightly staggered periods of time. That's a pro move. A cup. Three gelato per day. Delicious. Yeah. Best gelato flavor, Mallory and Rubin.

Oh, I couldn't possibly. I mean, I could not possibly. I just love them all. I don't know. Oh, God. I think it depends on the mood. It's like too specific to whether I want something like fruity and refreshing or like rich and creamy.

Just depends on my mood. And the best part about the three scoop day. is that you can just have run the gamut. You don't need to worry about them complimenting each other. Exactly. What about you? Favorite flavor? Strachitella, I think.

Yeah, that's probably, if you made me pick, that would be meant for one. When they opened Grom in, when I lived in New York and they opened a Grom in the village, I would get the strachia tell there all the time. It just, it just fucking delicious. I just have to say, though, this is not about gelato. This is about ice cream. We're here. We're talking about frozen confections.

and Arjuna is on the Zoom with us, and I will not miss the opportunity to say that MNship ice cream is delicious and Arjuna is wrong. Oh my God, it's honestly, it's my favorite. It's my favorite too, and he thinks it's gross. And the first time he told me this, I was like, I don't know if we can move forward.

Like, wow. Not for me. It's, oh, no. These are cowardly, many Zoom chats coming through right now. It's disgusting. It's disgusting. Artina. That's terrible thing.

I can't do, I can't do, I can't do menchip. I respect it. I respect that you can both enjoy it. You just said it's gross and it's disgusting. For me, for me, it's disgusting. Are you against all mint chocolate combinations? Yeah, I am. Okay.

That's a wrong opinion, but that's okay. I don't understand this. But I will relate to you in this moment by saying I am vehemently against all orange chocolate combinations. I think orange and chocolate is a disgusting combination. And so though we are not forced to eat orange chip ice cream, let me tell you of the trauma of being. being a child and thinking that you're getting a mint Milano and then it's a disgusting orange

milano cookie like orange and chocolate. It's a no for those. Wonderful. You didn't like the like orange chocolate candies, you know, that were shaped like an orange and you'd break them apart. The whack, the waka, whack and orange. I was a Christmas tradition in my. Yes. No, I mean, I love an interactive chocolate. That sounds like, I would love to like, I would love to be the one to break it. I just wouldn't eat it. Because I thought. Here's one of my takes. Chocolate is delicious. anything. Orange mint or otherwise. Okay.

Isaiah, do you have any strong chocolate flavor opinions that you won't need to get out? Nothing too crazy. I'm not like a mint chocolate fan, but I'm not, it's not gross. That's a bit strong for sure. I just can't believe that like Arjuna wouldn't enjoy like an Andy's mint. An Andy's mint? Refreshing. Delicious.

Wonderful. It makes me feel sick. Makes me want to vomit. Wow. Well, then that brings me. What? Is it a taste of version thing? Did you have like a bad experience as a.

kid? Did you eat too many as a kiddo? No, I, I, I just remember eating them as a kid and thinking they were gross and it just hasn't, it hasn't changed since then. It's just been, it's been that way. I mean, I feel compelled to change your mind, but this is how everyone who meets me and finds out that I don't like hot fruit treats me because I don't eat, I don't eat pies and people are upset about it about you. Yeah. Love a, love a fruit pie, love a copper. Wonderful. Not a buckle, not a cobbler. Get it out of here. All right.

If the Ring Reverse was a Secret Society, Peter asks, what would its corny secret society name be? Oh, my goodness. Great question. Yeah. Ooh. That's getting us for, like, a lot of naming creativity. I really feel like this is like Van's Sweet Spot or also like Steve coming in with a

particularly corny pun, but like we're not particularly gifted in that way. ring reverse secret society. I would call us the magnums like the ice cream, not like Tom Selleck or the condom size. That would be my really jaunty. I just think we make way too many dick jokes on the pod to be called the magnums. We just can't. No way. Absolutely not.

Oh, man. Maybe like, hmm. There's a lot we could do with rings. So a lot we can do with verse. Verse has like a nice secret society kind of thing. Oh, the verse? Yeah. Just call it the verse?

Yeah. It's like if you're really in the know, you're part of the verse. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. Does it have a little apostrophe in front of it? Only on our tattoos. Okay.

Yeah. Well, great. I really do feel like that fulfills the corny prompt. We're getting tattoos with apostrophe verse. I don't do it. Terrible. Terrible. All right.

Again, if your name is Van Latham or Steve Holman or anyone else who's listening, it was a better idea of what we should call the Rigger's Secret Society, let us know on social or elsewhere. And, you know, right in the sky, I don't care how you decided to communicate it to us. Anything else that we want to say about this episode of Marvel? Or Judah's baffling feelings about mint chocolate, like anything else we got. No? I don't think so.

It's just an absolute joy to discuss the show with you. So glad to do it at last. All right. We're going to do what we do with the close of every episode, which is just to remind you of the many, many shows we have coming for you because we love you and want to talk to you about all things nerddom. So Mallory and I will be here tomorrow to talk to you about Stranger Things, something I am staying up all night to watch.

Mallory will be getting up at the crack at dawn. It'll be later tomorrow. But it will be tomorrow. We will be here. We're not hot take. We're not a hot take pod, but we will be serving you medium takes about about Stranger Things. We'll also be back on Monday. The fourth with the second Stranger Things episode. The Midnight Boys, Pee will be back on Wednesday, talk about the boys and Miss Marvel in conjunction together. And then we'll be back, of course, also talk about Miss Marvel.

And then, as I said, The 11th Thunder time, maybe. So that is it for us this week. thank you to Mallory Rubin. Just like a gem and a treasure. And I love talking to you about everything. You're my favorite. Same pal. What a joy. What a treat.

Thanks to Isaiah Blakely, who does not have disturbing mint chocolate takes for his work on this episode. And thanks even to our Juna Rangipal for his tremendous work on this episode, even though he's a monster and should not be allowed near ice cream. All right.

We will see you. tomorrow. Right here. Bye. What's the difference between butter and butter made from real California dairy? It's the real

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