The Ringer-Verse - 'Obi-Wan Kenobi' Episode 5 Deep Dive | House of R

Episode Date: June 17, 2022

Mal and Joanna take a trip back to Coruscant and dive deep into the fifth episode of 'Obi-Wan Kenobi'. But first, they begin by giving their thoughts on the latest 'Game of Thrones' spinoff news (06:07). Then they sink their teeth into this new episode and the major themes and revelations within (18:23). They are also joined by Ben Lindberg, who provides an education on Force Ghost lore (02:07:39), as well as Jomi to answer your mailbag questions (02:27:04). Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Guest: Ben Lindbergh Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

There are certain moments and words that shaped a new era in pro wrestling. Austin 316 says I just whipped your ass. Brett screwed breath. Die, Rocky Dye. Suck! Introducing the Book of Wrestling, 25 catchphrases that explain the attitude era. Tune in as we relive one of the most exciting, intense, and over-the-top times in WWE. With new interviews, with the voices that made the promos, calls,

and catch phrases into history. Listen now. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin

or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur.

Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit trimfair radio.com. Want to support your gut health? Take Activia's gut health challenge by enjoying two Activya yogurt today for two weeks and see if you feel a difference. With billions of probiotics and 20 years of scientific expertise,

Activia is one of the easiest and tastiest ways to start your gut health ritual. Try Activia today. Enjoying Activia twice a day for two weeks as part of a balanced diet and healthy lifestyle may help reduce the frequency of minor digestive discomfort, which includes gas, bloating, rumbling, and abdominal discomfort. There, your weapon's gone. It's over. Your need for victory, Anakin.

It blinds you. You're a great warrior, Anakin. But you'll need to prove yourself as your undoing. Until you overcome it, a Padawan you will still be. And welcome into the Ringerverse here on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin, and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only to our base on Jabeem, but also to join us on the Ringers Nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. Joining me today, now that she's finished telling me to get her the ladder, you trust me? I trust her. It's my house of our co-host, Joanna Robinson.

Hello there. We have one more episode to get a hello there. We're holding on. We better. We better. Oh, boy, Joe. We have so much to get to today. We are, of course, here to chat at length about the latest Obi-1 Canobi episode, part five.

But before then, we have an ample programming reminder slate to run through. So many pods. You don't even have to wait until Monday this week for a new ringerverse pod because the Mint Edition crew, Steve and Jomey will be back on Sunday to break down Lightyear, the newest Pixar film. By the way, check out Pixar Week on the ringer.com. What a great website. And then on Monday, it's another House of Midnight Boys Breakdown with Van, Charles, and Joe. Those pods have been spectacular.

Check them out. And then on Wednesday, the Midnight Boys, booboo. We'll of course be back with their instant reaction to the Obi-1-Kanoboobo. finale. It's already finale time. Unbelievable. And then on Thursday, Joe and Co. will have their Miss Marvel episode three breakdown. And then on Friday, Joe will be back yet again because we will have our House of our Obi-One-Kanobie finale deep dive. You'll also be able to hear Joe on the trial by content feed, the prestige TV feed. Joe's got a lot of pods coming for you next week. Check them all Oh, yeah, Westworld's coming, guys.

Yeah. Give a little Westworld tease for the people. Bring yourself back online. Danny Hyphist and David Schumacher and I will be doing Westworld. We're doing a Westworld preview podcast to, like, get yourself caught up. What have you forgotten? What should you remember? Bring yourself back online.

And then we will be there week to week, I believe on Mondays, picking up what Westworld is throwing down. I'm really excited because David and Danny did such a great job. job with their own Westworld coverage the last couple years. And I, of course, was like potting about it elsewhere. So for us to sort of wonder triplet our way through Westworld, I'm really excited for that combination. So yeah, under triplet. Incredible. I can't wait. Can't wait. A little behind on West Pearl. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm thrilled and delighted that you're going to be potting together. Can't wait for that. A lot of people are. And I'll just say this. If you didn't love last season, I have seen an episode of the new C.

I think it's going to be a big upswing from last season. That's what I think. Love it. I think they've learned some lessons. Let's go. You can pull me out of cold storage. I'm back. Hell yeah.

Okay. How can you follow all of that? You can follow all of that here on the ringerverse, on the prestige feed, on the trial by content feed everywhere by following the pods on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. And of course, follow the ringer versus myriad social feeds. The ringer versus everywhere, including now on TikTok, Jomi is absolutely crushing it with the social delights that await a bounty of goodness every day for you. So check it all out. And of course, the final reminder here at the top today, every day.

Spoiler warning. Bear it in mind. Friendly Neighborhood, spoiler warning. Today's podcast will feature plot details from the episode of television that we are here to discuss. Obi-1 Canobey. Part 5. The entire Obi-1 Canobi series to date in all of Star Wars can and all of it, it's all on the table. So proceed with caution.

Proceed with more caution than Vader did when conducting a transport traffic stop without seeing how many transports were there. Okay. It is defense, Mallory. There was a light coating of dust in the air. between himself and transport number two. Oh, boy, it's true. Joe, before we dive in to our deep, deep, deep dive of part five,

you want to spend like a hot second here right at the top talking about some Game of Thrones murmurs? Rumors and whispers galore. They say words or wind, but this still alighted the Internet. My text messages were popping off last night. Yeah, so late in the day yesterday in the evening, James Seabird over at T.H.R. He used to be an entertainment weekly.

Now he was a Hollywood reporter reported on an early development idea of a John Snow sequel series starring Kid Harrington. endorsed by George R. Martin. And it's one of many, many, many projects in the works over at HBO. But this is the first one to include a cast member from, you know, the original series. So a lot of people are losing their marbles about this. How did it make you feel? Positive and negative.

I, okay. So here's, let me take a wider view and say this. I am every day increasingly excited for House of the Dragon. Like initially I was like, I'm done with Thrones. I need a break. I don't want it. Blah, blah. And now everything I've seen, everything I've heard has gotten me like very optimistic for this series.

And then there's a bunch of other things in the work, because you and I have talked about like Duncan Egg and, you know, animated series. And, you know, they're spinning out the whole Thrones IP. Much of the way that George himself has like spun out different companion books and novellas and stuff like that. Okay. All of those ideas seem more fertile to me than a John Snow sequel series. That being said, I don't know what they're going to do with it, but I feel like we got John Snow's story. What this project presupposes is, maybe we only got the first chapter of it.

Mallorvin, how are you feeling about the fact that your beloved ghost may return to your heart and home? man, I shouted out loud into my empty living room, into a Twitter box and into text messages galore. Protect ghost more times than I can count last night. And, you know, I'd be lying if I said it didn't feel good to be back there. Joe, I think I'm, I know it is quite literally my job to share an experience. explain my feelings about pop culture on Ringer podcasts. Not sure I'm quite ready to do that here. I experienced such a roller coaster of emotions when I saw this.

When I saw this article I said, it was almost unbelievable. I think that on the one hand, the idea of returning to John or any of our other beloved pals eventually is like one of the least surprising developments in IP machine history, right? Like it was going to happen at some point. Correct. I think that what surprised me is the timing in a couple different respects. We're only two months from House of the Dragon. And I am surprised that this is out there before that.

before there was an opportunity for whether it's House of the Dragon or Duncan Egg or any number of other things to bring people back to really spark and sustain that excitement again. And then you come out with the, hey, guess what? We're returning to John. We're taking you beyond the wall. Ghost is back. Let's hang out with Tormand and Sheila. Sure. Everything you've wanted to revisit here it is, right, once that passion is rekindled.

So I'm a little surprised by the timing just because it feels like on the one hand, maybe there's a lot of what you just described, people feeling like the itch, the pull, you know, ready to go to Westrose again. But it's just still so close to the end of season eight that I was just a little bit stunned by it. So I don't know. I think that to yes and that, I mean, it's not my job to tell actors what they should or shouldn't do. But Kit Harrington gives so many interviews about how devastating and stressful and world-breaking the final few seasons of Game of Thrones were for him. So just from a like, I care about Kit Harrington's well-being point of view, I'm like, you want to come back so soon, Kit? Like, you don't want to take, I mean, this will

be in development for a little while, so it'll be a little while and it may never happen at all. But that's the other timing question that I have. But I'm like, I was not, I would not be surprised that these actors who are like, I'm done, I'm done, I want to move on from Game with Thrones, I've done. Several years down the line would say, you know what? It was. It was nice being on the biggest show in the world, and I like some money, and maybe there's more of this character that I want to explore, like, all of those things. But this is way soothing, I thought. Also, because the last couple of years sort of feel like they didn't happen at all. So it really feels like no time has passed since the end of Game of Thrones and a long time has passed. So that's the other thing. And then the other thing, like, I have heard a rumor that George R. Martin is, like, all in on this sequel series. So on the one hand, that's good news and that, like, if he's involved, there will be, like, some guiding hand. of George because that was a real concern I had when I first heard it, like, that they didn't have any book to go on, let alone, you know, like the way that the Game of Thrones original series progressed, right? There were like the seasons that were closely following the books,

and then the seasons where we didn't have the book roadmap and Weiss and Beniof made their own decision. Some of them we like, some of them we don't. I was worried that we would get a Georgeless, you know, John Snow's story. I've heard that George's, like, sort of all in on this. But then that makes me worried, and I've never been this person before, but it makes me worried that we're just never going to get the end of the books, right? That, like, George is way too busy to finish the books. And I've always been, like, be patient, it'll get to them person.

But this is like, I don't know, I have questions. What do you think? Yeah, I agree with all of that. I think in terms of the timing point for the actors and just the characters to, like, when I said earlier, this seemed like something that would definitely happen eventually. I guess I anticipated it being more of like an OB-1 comp. Now, of course, we don't have the bookends that were, you know, the two slices of bread and we're filling out the middle of the sandwich equivalent, but that it would be years down the road and we would check back in.

So if it's much sooner than that, that's a surprise to me. I think also, on the one hand, there could be a real true king beyond the wall style approach to this. That would be fun and thrilling and frankly rippening. Yeah. It's something I would love to explore with. One of the characters in John, and of course I extend that to ghost, who is sincerely, non-hyperbolically, one of the most important characters to me in the history of my life, right? So that would be exciting eventually.

It's impossible, I think, to imagine how that show that quickly could happen without then needing to, and we'd want it to. Even if we feared it, we would long for it, bring back all the other characters. characters. Like, can a John story, no matter how far into the North he is, exist without us knowing what Sanzas up to, how Aria's adventures are going, whether Brand has said, I'm going to go now, 5,000 more times, et cetera, right? You need to know all of that as soon as you're back. You need to know it. So then, like, that makes me think of the George point, too, because then I do wonder, like, how many, maybe on the one hand, there's an opportunity for some of what he intends

to do in, in wins and spring to make it back into these teams. EV arcs. But yeah, I don't know. I'm like, on the George front, I have long thought that we would get wins. Spring seems very unlikely to me, as painful as that is to say. I am like in a place of just really wanting to love and support George. I feel so sad for him that he didn't get to finish his story on his own terms, even though it's like the biggest and most popular thing in the world. And so if this brings him joy, great. If we could get more insight into how he ultimately saw these character arcs playing out awesome. I want nothing more in the world. than to eventually get that on the printed page. I really hope we get it. I just will never let the dream die. The dream of spring. Hope, hope, dream of spring,

Eternal. Yeah, I mean, like, and that's the other thing is like, ghost and torment and John, you know, your mileage may vary. Mallory, of course, is, like, thrilled to be back

in the snowy embrace of ghosts. But, like, if you were to pitch me a spinoff, a sequel series, Sonson, Winterfell, pirate aria. Like, there's a lot of stories that I have a lot of... But Joe, don't you just think this is the on-ramp to all of that, too? Probably.

And even if it doesn't... What's west of Westeros? It's sequels. That's what's west of Westeros. And what's probably true is that even if, like, Sophie Turner is like, no, thank you. I'm married to Joe Jonas and I'm doing the staircase or whatever else I want to do. Like, I don't want... I'm raising two kids.

I don't want to move back to Belfast or whatever it is. what is still true is that every time we see like a hint of red hair on a passing stranger, someone's going to be like, is that, is that Queen Sonsa? Is she here? I mean, and then it's going to like, it's going to break open the whole, all of our DeNaris feelings. I mean, I don't know. It's a whole, it's a whole can of worms I'm not sure I'm ready for. But what I do know is this. If and when it happens, I'll be so thrilled to talk about it with you. Same, pal. What a joy. I'm so excited for House of the Dragon and to talk to you about it every week. I can't believe it's two months away.

That gives me like heart palpitations. I'm so excited. I'm also incredibly, incredibly hyped and eager to dive back in. It's time to start returning to the canon and brush it up. I'm excited. I know. I texted you last time. I'm like, I got that it.

Initially when you proposed doing a full Thrones rewatch, I was like, do we need to? This is a prequel series. We don't need to rewatch the whole thing unless I was like, I think I'm going to do it. We just need to immerse, you know? Yeah. coming home again. Yeah. It's just time to tuck in to a bowl of brown.

Get into one of the many traumatic baths that have happened in Game of Thrones. Oh, God. Oh, boy. Someone tweeted at me last night. They're like, oh, we're going to find out that Jamie and Sarsie survived the collapse of the sept, aren't we? And I was like, I mean, anything's possible in sequel land. You never know. You could take a lightsaber to the gut and be absolutely fine.

recovering from the I guess we should have said Gabe of Throde's spoiler at the top here recovering from the cascading bricks unlikely a castorly rock Lanister youth prequel I would love that wouldn't be surprised

sign me up can't wait to see Tyrion construct his section What kind of was I'm castorly rock That's kind of what the like Scrapped Thrones prequel was supposed to be was supposed to have some castorly rock origins Way back in the day

Some landinister sort of stuff. So anyway. Throne. Cammoth. Oh, boy. Oh, my gosh. Boy, protect ghosts now and always can't wait. Okay.

This episode is brought to you by Sweet Green. The day doesn't ask for permission. Lunch window? Gone before you saw it coming. You deserve a break that actually satisfies. Sweet Green's new wraps have got you. Real ingredients? Zero shortcuts.

Everything you love in one hand. Think green goddess chicken. Garlic aoli. Crumbled bacon, corn salsa, 40 grams of protein, made to keep up with whatever comes next. New sweetgreen wraps hit different. Order now at order.com. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks,

followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Tramphia, proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need of a vaccine.

vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramfaya today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Tramphia Radio.com. This episode is brought to by Paramount Plus. Beth and Ripp are back in a new series, Dutton Ranch. Kelly Riley and Cole has a returned and this time they're taking on Texas. As Beth and Rip build a future together, peace will have to wait as they face corruption, danger, and a ruthless Ravow Ranch willing to protected secrets at all costs. Legacy is a beautiful thing, but only if it survives. Dutton Ranch starring Colehouser, Kelly Riley, Annette Benning and Ed Harris, now streaming on Paramount Plus.

Anyway, should we talk about other IP? Other sequel IP? Let's do it. Let's do it. Okay. We're here today to talk about part five, directed by Deborah Chow. This was a 42, 43-minute episode. including all the preimposed written by joey harold and andrew stanton you all may know

andrew stanton as a Pixar uh cinematic luminary behind the the classics such as wally and finding nemo stand is also a co-writer on the impending finale joe what do you what do you make of the stanton of it all here well i'm thrilled you and i when we talked about turning red we you and i both like picked Andrew Stanton as sort of like our secret weapon of Pixar and also on this week's trial by content we debated the best Pixar movie and I also talked to link about Andrew Stanton and currently my pick Finding Nemo his movie is winning the poll so thank you all not too late to continue to vote for me um he always campaigning I love and respect it he's uh well when we talked about him on the turning red podcast we talked about how he's this like

emotional core of Pixar that, like, reportedly he went into the original Toy Story script and sort of added a lot of the emotionality and finding Nemo, which is the first movie that he wrote and directed for Pixar is like the start of the hyper-emotional Pixar era. And a lot of the places where you find your just heart being pulled out of your chest in the Pixar canon is Andrew Stanton. So we have no idea, and odds are no one is ever going to tell us, who wrote what in terms of this, we know that Joby Herald did sort of like a top rewrite of the series. And so when in earlier episodes we got like Hossein Amini and other people credited, those were like for previous scripts and Joby came in and sort of rewrote them.

I don't know if that's the case with Andrew here on these final two episodes. But when I was like sort of hunting and pecking for Stantonish qualities, I think the Anakin Obi-O-B-1 flashback, and the way that it is threaded through the episode and the way that the beats of that fight and the exchanges resonates throughout the plot of the episode in such a smart, emotionally intelligent way versus some of the disconnect we felt with like, let's say,

Book of Boba Fett, I don't know if it's Sandra Stanton, but it feels Stanton-y-to-mey. It has the Stanton fingerprints on it in a great way. Yeah. How about you? No, I had the same thought. That was where I... And again, I have absolutely no idea.

Who can say? No clue. But that was where you felt that, that signature, emotional intelligence and desire to examine the heart of the motivations that are, wow, I just, the Baltimore accent just came out hard there. The motivations, hon. The hurt to the motivations that are, that are driving the characters. And I thought that those were the most successful element.

of the episodes and the part that I enjoyed the most, which brings us to our quick opening snapshot. We're going to go beat by beat as always, so we'll talk about all of this more at length as we go. But as an opening snapshot, Joe, overall impressions. How are you feeling about episode five?

So when I first watched it at midnight on Tuesday, I was pretty mixed, and then going back in and rewatching and studying and listening to the Midnight Boys and listening to a bunch of other people do their breakdowns. I think what I feel is that there are just dizzying highs of this episode,

high, high, highs. And then some aspects that still confuse me, logically. So still mixed, but I think I'm higher on the eyes than I was when I first watched it. How about you? Yeah, similar.

Better, I liked it better than episode four, but not as much as I enjoyed episodes one through three. You know, I think through three episodes, this show was like feeling like it had the chance to be an all-timer for me. And I'm still, you know, really enjoying it. And there was a lot to like in the last two episodes. But they, they've been much more, much more mixed for me. Mixed is the word I would use as well.

I mean, I have a very, very similar read. I had jotted down in my notes, very high, high, some confounding lows. You know, I think we have a similar feel on it. And, you know, to tease some of that, which will, will flesh out as we go, I think that the, from like a plot structure perspective, I think that the twists, you know, quote unquote twists are falling a little bit flat for me and that I'm wondering how many of them needed to be twists and how much meteor it would have been in certain respects for certain arcs if they hadn't been. I think that overall, like certain character arcs are working much better for me than others.

I really just like want more time with the characters because learning more about about them and exploring the dynamics is the highlight of the show for me, whether that's something that they do individually in isolation, you know, in a cave or a back to tank or staring out on a bridge of a destroyer or whatever the case may be, or in tandem with each other as they build their bonds or parse what went wrong. So like the flashback in this episode was a fucking thrill for me. Like more of that, more of that, more time, more lookbacks, more, uh, immersion in these thematic parallels and links. I think that our, we hope you didn't make a drinking game out of word X word.

Today will be parallels, right? We're going to talk a lot about parallels. And I loved the parallels in this episode. On the action front, the larger battle sequence on Jabim was my first. I know this has been like a big talking point, not just with Obi-Ole, but across the Disney Plus shows. This has not really been a thing that's bothered me. But this was my first real, like, I have a TV budget question. and some of the scale of it just felt a little off.

Then the flip side, again, there's a lot of swings here. I thought that the smaller, more focused and intimate action moments were like riveting. And the Vader-Rivodul was like an instantly iconic Star Wars sequence that I adored. I think there's just really epic Vader god mode action in this episode between that and the transport hall. And you pair that with his failure to stop Obi-1 and then mix that in with the thematic callbacks that prime us for that. all of that landed so well. So hi-hys, some notes and some questions that I'm excited to discuss.

My feeling is that going through the episode beat by beat will really help me appreciate the things I loved about it. And also interrogate some of the things that we didn't think worked as well and ask why and see where that sets us up for the finale. Because that's the other thing is like, I think that in a vacuum, the episodes may be more successful than when you think about it in the context of the season, which is, you know, for a penultimate episode, like, potentially worrying. Like, I left the episode more concerned heading into the, for the finale than I had been to this point. A lot of that is just that I'm very worried about the reintroduction of the tattooing of it all. Like, as I've said many times, I have a lot of how does this adhere to canon piece in general,

but that feels like really, really perilous and risky. So I'm hoping for a bigger, but we're going to do a section on, like, sort of looking forward. But I think that I do want to circle back. Well, I want to say two things on the back of what you just said. Number one, I've been looking forward all week to talking to you about this because I really do feel like this is my like Star Wars therapy talking to you about Obi-1 every week helps me enjoy the things that I enjoy even more. And it helps to blur the things that are sort of bothering me. And I'm able to focus on the things that I enjoy better. So I said this last week, I mean it again.

Like I always love talking to you about this stuff. But also, to your twist point, I had a whole conversation with myself this morning about twists and Star Wars. And I was like, it's so weird to me that they've done this twice between Boba Fed and this show in terms of hiding a main character's motivation, quote, poorly, hiding it poorly for the sake of surprising us sometimes later. And I was like, so this is the conversation I have with myself. I was like, self, Star Wars doesn't really have twists. And then the other thoughts were like, Joanna, the biggest twist of all time is Luke, I am your father. So Star Wars has had twists. And then I was like, well, but that never, we never didn't understand what Vader was about before that revelation or what Luke was about before that revelation.

It's not like, I just think this weird holding back of information for the sake of shock and surprise, allegedly, is just not working in this Star Wars world and these Star Wars shows. I feel like shows have been to go back to Thrones, I think ever since there's been like a red wedding problem in TV since season three of Thrones in that everyone else is chasing that high of a shocking twist, an astonishing moment. Even Thrones itself sort of got tangled up in that a bit. And so when I see someone chasing shock and sacrificing story in pursuit of shock, that's when I'm like a little, you didn't need to be like this. Riva's story is very compelling.

That idea is very compelling. The execution of it, and again, you know, as the Midnight Boys have said, as we have said, this is not on the actress herself. But the execution of it is not hanging together that well. That being said, lightsaber fights, Alzheimer, incredible shit. So. I agree. I agree.

Next time you have one of those back and forth with your stuff. you should record it. Okay. You know? Everyone wants to hear me talking like like smeggle, smegel and gollum like with myself. Do it into the reflective surface. Find a pool of water. Okay.

That would be great. Honestly. People would love that. I don't know. I feel like Joby could use that for social. Okay. We have so much to talk about. I'm just sorry.

I'm just thinking about myself like hunched over my kitchen sink. Can I get some Gallum voice from you? Give me a little. Give me a little. I mean, now we need it. A let's taste. We're not too far away from Lord of the Rings season either. So it's time to get in the zone.

I'm actually literally talking about Tolkien later in this conversation. So I'll maybe give it to you then. We're going to talk about it. Wow, you're keeping me waiting, much like the creators of Obi-Wan for something that I know I'm going to get. We'll see if it lands. What a tease. All right, Joe. It's time.

It's time to dive. into this episode and into the past. Sometimes, listen, I'm going to, this is going to be something that makes Steve just horrified. Sometimes we open these pods open. We're 30 minutes in. Open these pods and say, we're going to try to go quickly today.

I don't think it's going to happen. We have lots of cover. I'm pretty high to go beat by beat. Sorry, Steve. We won't do our best, but we hear, we hear for you. Obie want deep divers. And Ben's coming too. So, you know.

Little, Obi-1 succession. Yeah. Cross over there. That's thrilling and troubling all at once. Do you think Matthew McFadden deserves to be in a Star War? Yeah. Who do you think he should be?

Hmm. Oh, he's a Sith. 100%. Right? Or, oh, no, no, no, no. He's some sort of imperial bureaucrat. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he can make a cameo at any point as, like, an imperial officer who comes to tell Darth Vader something on the bridge of the Devastator he could at any point that would be great but I think he could actually like to see him as a climber aspirational yeah a striver a sort of like Huxey sort of thing I think he could be in in a Star Wars film though like there's certain actors where like I'd like them to have like a little cameo that would be cute but I think he could just really do it anyway we're here to talk about he should be somebody

who's Thrawn at some point just annihilates via tactics and strategies. Love it. Okay. We've solved it. I'm excited to see that in the future. Really excited to see him. It's not the summer of no expectations here on House of Ar.

Really excited to hear the casting announcement for Skeleton Crew, the upcoming definitely a Thron show that they're doing with Jude Law. So great. I love it. Okay. Joe? Yes. It's time.

40-ish minutes into the pod. It's time to start talking about the episode. This is my favorite time of the week. Speaking about 40-ish, that's about the old Hayden Christensen is. I'm going to come in with a hot controversial take. Let's do it. I have no notes on how Hayden Grisholin looks in this flashback. Do I hear everyone's complaints?

Yes. Has Jomey made me laugh like three separate times talking about this? Yes. However, I far prefer a sloth. a slightly rough looking 20-something-year-old Anakin versus a completely

plasticized anachin. And if you look at it, like a lot of people are like, they didn't bother to deage him at all. That's not true at all.

I feel like if you say that, it means you have not seen Hayden Christensen recently, who's still extremely handsome, but is 41.

They did a lot of deaging on him. They just left his eyes and his mouth more natural than they usually leave. And the mouth is so key in the D-age. And I think, you know, I'm not, I'm not mad about it because I felt like I felt like

Hayden finally got to play Anakin in a way that, I mean, at least for me who doesn't connect to him in the prequels, I felt emotionally connected to him. So, yeah. No, I agree. I think that this avoided, I take the trade off here of avoiding it feeling too distractingly Uncanny Valley. What was your just initial gut response when the episode opens and you see that glimpse of Korson and then you pan back and you see the little Padawan braid in the rat tail and

you know that it's happening. We're getting young Anakin. We're getting Hayden, Sands, you know, a Vader helmet or burn charred skin prosthetic or desert distance mirage. I was, I gasped with a joy. I was thrilled. And it's like that wistful score pairing with that first glimpse. And it's just this encapsulation of this is what we've wanted.

I was over the moon. Because, you know, as we've been saying, like, why do you cast Hayden if you're not going to do, give us a flashback? I could have, honestly, and I know that maybe coming off Book of BobaFet, they didn't want to do this because we had our issues. I mean, they'd already made their decisions by the time we saw Book of BobaFet. But like the flashbacks every week on Book of BobaFet were not. thrilling to us. But if this is truly an Obi-Wan-Vader show, which it wound up being at its best,

it is an Obi-Wan-Vader show, I think giving us flashbacks every week, I would have had an appetite for it and making those flashbacks and the lessons from the mirror the actions of the present-day, you know, Jedi Sith that we're watching. I thought it was incredible, electric, thrilled. And this is for me an attack of the clones hater, you know, but I was delighted. But that's part of what I love about

it so much, actually, because it's a of a piece, I think, with why I love the Clone Wars so much. You know, only one of the reasons, of course, like so much of what I love about the Clone Wars is Asoka and all of the new elements, but a huge, huge, huge part of why that's one of my favorite Star Wars installments is because it improves upon the prequels

and helps really flesh out and enhance our understanding not only of their individual arcs and their respective journeys, but their shared arc and these key moments that they have together. So just getting the flashback at all, and we've been waiting when we got that back to tank, we're like, all right, is it here?

I love that you titled the little header at our outline, taking the back to out of flashback to, you know, it's a little bit surprising how it happened, but it worked so well. And I'm with you. I mean, this is such a key interaction and a new piece of canon, not just a retread. I would have loved, I hope we get more of this still,

and I would have loved it the entire way. I think that would have been a really cool way to structure the whole series and think of how many opportunities it would have given us and our pal Ryan area over at Screen Crush to play the George Lucas soundbite about him talking about how Star Wars rhymes.

That's one of the best recurring bits. I love it. Joe, let's chat for a minute about the, the setting, not just the corosante of it all, but the exact training room that they are standing in. And, of course, what Anakin is gazing out to in the distance. Take us through it. Yeah, yeah.

So the pavilion place where they're training is exactly where we saw Riva and the Younglings at the start of the series. So that's a really interesting way to connect those characters beyond the other connections that we're going to get. Like, you know, their origin. are the same. A harrowing link. Yeah.

And then we start with Anakin staring out at the skyline, but he's looking at a particular building. And that building that he's looking at is the high-rise where Padmei likes to lounge around and like silken silks and pearls. And it's a mirror of a Revenge of the Sith moment where he's looking out where she is and she's looking out at the Jedi temple where he is. where he is, and it's just before he makes a devastating choice, a fall choice in Sith. And so, but I like this idea that, you know, he's constantly thinking and pining and focusing on her,

this attachment, a way to put Natalie Portman in here without putting Natalie Portman in here, you know? Yes, I love the reminder of the longing in terms of the Anakin Padmae relationship. we also get so many moments across this episode where Vader is on the bridge of the Devastator looking out into the distance. And we've talked about this before, but it's not just a cool thing to see across the Anakin arc, but it's this connection between Anakin and Luke and Leah,

this propensity to always look out to the horizon and think about the thing that they don't have and how in some ways that can be this inspiring pull and propulsive force to lead you to the next phase of your journey and your hero's art. and how in some ways it can be the thing that you harp on at the expense of all of the other things that are actually around you. So I like that too. Just would be remiss not to mention, though, that we should never forget what a fucking creep anachin Skywalker is.

Just loves to stand there and stare at the place where he knows Padme is sleeping. Fucking weird. Yeah, it's not quite like Edward Cullen level. Like he's not in the room. But, yeah, it's not great. That reminds me, though, the Sith point they made. Should we talk about the timeline for a second year? Yeah.

So this is either right before or potentially even during the events of attack of the clones. It definitely predates the Clone Wars. We're fully on Joanna Robinson wigwatch here because the hair is the most helpful initial clue of where we are in the story for both of them. Yeah, not just the Padua One braid, but the Obi-Wan-Hara hair. It's not his best hair. It's not. No, we got a lot of tweets for people. We always love, we love to hear from you about our guy, Obi-1, Canobi, of course.

But, you know, we have to stay for the record, not our favorite Obi-look. It's not. I'm much more partial to this weathered. I've been living in a cave on Tatooine for years. Energy. And in talk of the clones, it's like Obi-1 had just discovered L.A. looks. They're like gel. And he bought, like, an enormous pot of it.

And then he was like, oh, I got it. I got to make my way through this giant tub of L.A. looks that I bought. And so he's just, like, slicking back his hair constantly in a way that doesn't work. Revenge of the Sith, he's going a little bit more natural. It's wartime. He doesn't have time to, like, you know, quaffer. So, yeah. Attack of the clothes. Do you know? You can't be a general and style your hair that much, you know? Oh, yeah. What's your sense? Is it, is it pre or during? What do you think? I think it's during. I think this is where I've landed after, after mulling this quite a bit, but it's got to be at the very beginning, kind of before they part. Like, so our pal Ben Lindberg, who will be with us shortly, we were, we were going back and forth on this a bit when Ben was working on his column, and then after, after Arjuna sent some very clear, no, this is definitely when this is set timeline slacks. And I was like, I need more coffee. You're obviously right. The, so Ben sent me a, uh, a link to a Ryan Brit inverse article that makes

the point. that this scene happening right on the brink of the, he's jealous, he's holding me back, Anakin outburst to Padmei feels like the right sequencing and kind of like helps all of that coalesce a little bit more, not that that didn't fit already with the overall Anakin, Obi-1 tension and the limitations that Anakin's jealousy consistently proved to be for him, right?

I think that the, so obviously he's got the Padua, the Padawan braid. This is before his nighting definitively. He hasn't grown out his hair. All of that is very clear. He has the human hand, right? So this is pre-duku-duke-duil at the end of attack of the clones and the pre-severing

of the lightsaber at the droid factory. So it's definitely before the end of attack of the clones. But I like the idea of it being right at the beginning of it. It doesn't feel like it could predate it by that much, right? And that's like peak. I think that's the time that Aniken

and probably spent the most time staring at where Padme is sleeping, honestly. There are some incredibly, incredibly creepy exchanges. I think the other thing to, I was listening to our friends over the Empire podcast, break down this episode, and they had some really cool insights into whose flashback they thought it was. I think it's both. This is like similar to our back to conversation. and like could maybe lead us down the promos path to like a forced dyad conversation.

But I think that the way that they shoot this, like when you first come out of the first section of flashback, you're on Vader, right? But each time we go in and out of the flashback going forward, you're on one and then you're out on the other. You know, and they're both sort of doing that pensive staring off in the distance I'm about to have a flashback face or I just had a flashback face and also saying things like, it's because they're both trying to work out strategy-wise what the other will do. And so they're both thinking about this one trading session or maybe a few and what lessons they might glean from it. So I really think it's a shared flashback. I agree. The cuts felt very deliberate in terms of whose face we're going from or toward and the way that we move between them. And also just the way that the parallels emerge across the

episode with the lessons that are learned or not learned for both of them and what a rich text that is, because there are things that Vader is taking from that exchange to and applying. But as is so often the case, and this is one of the just delicious aspects of their relationship and their arc, Obi-1 has seen the ultimate endgame and upshot in a way that Anakin just simply hasn't. And but I also think Obi-1 gets some things wrong. I'm excited to go beat by beat. He gets more right than Anakin.

But certainly gets some things wrong too. They're flawed. They're so caught up in this shared history. I think that Vader's inability to. look beyond the resentment is the true ultimate distinction. So the thing that we get, because we get these different, the lines and the lessons kind of build across the returns, you know, we return a handful of times to the flashback across the episode. And we'll go through all of those as we, as we break down the episode, the thing we get in this initial snapshot, because there's like a key,

a key bit of sage wisdom in each little glimpse. So we also get, like, before that here, I think we kind of get this fun meta note. Ah, there you are. I was beginning to think you weren't coming, Master. Just this wink to the audience as we waited patiently for this exchange. I love that. And then we get this reminder that Anakin, in terms of just skill and ability, plenty capable of besting Obi-Wan and has.

There's the great, you know, exchange and Sith about the number of times he saved him. In terms of skill, pure skill, as advanced as Obi-1 is, Anakin actually actually. is superior. And that's part of why it's so compelling to see him thwarted by Obi-Won so many times because it is not just the mastery of the light, the lightsaber of the blade, right, that leads him. So when Obi-1 says, like, good, then maybe I stand more of a chance this time. And we know that Anakin had the upper hand in their last exchange. Like, that matters not only inside of this episode, but across their shared canon, because it's not just that dueling prowess,

it's that knowledge and that wisdom. The way that Obi-1 is able, ultimately, leader look really, you've made this point so many times across not only our preview pot, but our episode breakdowns to learn about himself and his opponent and then actually work consciously, even if he's not perfect, to try to apply those learnings. Yeah. And that's the differentiator. That idea that the force being, I love listening to the Midnight Boys, not just because they're like delightful, but they're also just brilliant, right?

And so that can sometimes, I think, get lost in the laughter of the Midnight Boys, but sometimes they'll come through or often they'll come through with just like a piercing insight. And so I want to shout out this thing that Charles said that I was like in my car listening to it and I wanted to like slam the brakes on my car and scream yes. When Charles was talking about how Anakin is a wartime Jedi versus, you know, Obi-Wan who got most of his, got his training in peacetime. I thought that was such an interesting insight. This line comes later in the exchange, and I actually want to talk about it even later also. But when Anakin says Mercy doesn't defeat the enemy master, I just, he's thinking about the enemy at all time.

They're not at war yet, but he's thinking about the enemy at all time in a way that I don't think Obi-1 was ever forced to in his training, in his bringing up. And, you know, that's part of, like, could argue that a wartime PTSD or whatever is all part of Anikins fall. It's a huge part of who his character is. It's why the Clone Wars is such an interesting piece of story, as you say.

And so I do think that the luxury of a Jedi in peacetime is to focus as much on the martial side of what you do. The force should be used to defend not attack. But how do you do that? How do you get to be that kind of wise, wise, sage, Zen master if you're a wartime Jedi. It's a great point and it's interesting too because so many of the points of contrast

that we'll observe are between Obi-1 and Vader or one of them and Riva, but we can always also look elsewhere in the canon. And so that makes, hearing you and Charles talk about that, like makes me think of Luke, because that was also true for him. All of Luke's training and the lessons from Yoda about protection and working to help and heal

that's also in the throes of wartime, right? The full thrust of the rebellion. Luke is receiving his training on Dagaba, and he's gotten some from old Ben. I wonder if they mean old Ben. Canobey. I guess I've got some of his training before he's hopped into the cockpit of an X-Wing.

But Dagaba Empire, a lot of what we thought we would get on the parallel front in this episode, we ended up getting much more of the Hoth-centric. There's an empire attack. on a rebel base parallel. It could have so easily gone wrong for Luke to the point where when he is called by knowing that Han and Leia and his friends

are in peril, Yoda and Obi-Wan tell him not to go because they so fear from what happened with Anakin how that pull to protect and save the very thing that they would champion could lead you a strong. It's just, oh, boy. I think, I mean, and there's so many distinctions between Luke and Anakin, obviously,

but I think a key distinction between one wartime Jedi and another is Luke didn't have to grapple with the Jedi Council, the like Jedi bureaucracy, the way that. The better for it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. The Jedi should never have mixed and mingled in politics. It's just true. All right.

The Jedi Order. Tough stuff. Boy, we always have some notes. So we cut from this, we cut from this first flashback to, from the Clash of the Blades to Vader, breathing. He's looking out, just as Anakin was from the training room. And then the captain brings Riva aboard. And she says to him, it is my great honor to be invited aboard Lord Vader. And I wanted to talk about this just for a quick second, because... One, I will try not to repeat myself too many times in this episode, but one of the things that I'm really hung up on regarding Riva's arc is I have no issue at all with her wanting to kill Anakin. That tracks fully based on her history, right?

Which was devastating to learn about in full here. Why go be an inquisitor and hurt all of those people too? So part of the, there are a lot of different ways that you could attempt to rationalize that. about that more as we go. But one of them is simply that she had to bide her time and get as close as she could. And I'm really, I'm hung up on that for a lot of reasons. But one of them is just that there's so much canon that places Vader right next to the Inquisitors, you know, training them, tormenting them, horrifically, like cutting off pieces of their body to ensure that they're totally enthralled to the nature of his teachings and the empire's approach. Then we do get moments

in this show where we can see the way that like the Fifth Brother really pines for that proximity and the jealousy that sprouts when other people get it and one of them doesn't, right? So, like, I think we have to believe that something like this is exceedingly rare and that she would have to really wait to work toward a moment like that, but even so, I struggle with that part of it.

I have a lot of notes about the Riva arc and how it played out here. We'll get most of that later, but I just wanted to mention it with that line because, like, maybe they're just very rarely near each other. Can we talk about her backstory? here, like, is that is slightly out of order, but I think that... You want to do it all here?

Should we dive right in? I think we should. Like, I think that it will not surprise you to know that I rewatched Empire in anticipation of this the way that I watched a new hope last week, just to, like, sort of see what parallels I might see. And, of course, you know, I was focusing a lot on the Yoda sections because that's sort of what you and I guessed we might get. But, like, I'm not telling Star Wars fans anything new because most people have all of Yoda's words of wisdom about the force tattooed on their body somewhere.

But, like, that idea of anger, fear, aggression, the dark side of the force are they? Easily they flow quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path forever, will it dominate your destiny, consume you at will as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice? This is what he says to Luke about the dark side. It's seductive qualities. This idea that Riva in her pursuit of vengeance, which was righteous, one might say, and her desire to destroy one of the most harmful forces in the galaxy and Darth Vader,

she opened herself up to the dark side in her anger, and it led her down this path. I can't really narratively justify it, but if we're talking about a dark side corruption of Riva, it led her down the path where she could justify all these things that she's doing. She is able in her mind to justify torturing Leah, watching a kid get his neck snapped, whatever it is, you know, that Van was rightfully going on at length during the Midnight Boys podcast. She is able to justify that because there is like the ends justify the means and also my vengeance is so my hatred is all consuming. When Obi-1 says later, and I think the best line of this entire Obi-1 series, All he will see is me, right? Isn't that what he says? Because all he'll see is me? That's all

Riva's seeing is Vader. And it has allowed her, because she has opened herself up to the dark side, it has allowed her to justify all the things that she is doing. Narratively, does that hang for me? I don't know. But in terms of like dark side corruption, it kind of does. How do you feel about it? I'll give, I guess, an initial attempt at a summation here. And then I guess we can talk about it some more as we as we go through the chronology. I think that Riva is an incredibly compelling character. I think that the performance is spectacular.

I'm struggling with the with reconciling the different aspects of her arc. I think that a lot of it is what we talked about earlier. I just wish that instead of going for the, because it's kind of like a dual twist here, right?

Where we get the initial confirmation that she was the youngling in the Order 66 flashback. And there's a lot in that, in that exchange between Riva and Obi-Wan that is just absolutely heart-wrenching and agonizing and devastating. And of course, you are empathizing for her

and you want to root for her in those moments. But when you swing later to Obi-Wan imploring her to not let Anna can do it again, right? There are families, there are children. She was just charging in against those very families and children saying no mercy seal them in, wipe them out. So I think that the point you're making is a really strong one. And I don't argue with that logic at all. I think the thing I'm feeling is that the show didn't spend the necessary time with the character to allow us to

appreciate that. I agree. And so I think it's just if we had known initially that and this isn't, to be clear, this isn't like a, oh, the internet solved it kind of complaint. Like that doesn't bother me. Like, that's actually part of the fun of talking about these shows on a weekly basis and theorizing and speculating, right? So I'm not like let down when a lot of podcasters or tweeters or YouTubers or whatever the case, maybe figure it out. That's fine. It's more just that so much of what has really worked with this show, as we've discussed a lot, this season, is these really, like, introspective moments where we get to see the characters reflect on the choices that they've made. And so we need, for this, for this arc to fully land in

the finale, I feel, I feel that we need. need to see Riva reflect on that dissonance because pursuing Anakin, even aligning with Obi-1 at the end to pursue Anakin is not in and of itself redemptive. In part just because the Sith kill each other all the time, right? But much more germainly because the thing, the key crucial ingredient and Star Wars loves a redemption arc. The crucial ingredient is remorse, right? That reflection and contrition. Now, we begin to work toward that when Obi-1 appeals to her by saying, don't let him do this again, right? Right. I agree with what you're saying. You're absolutely right about how it's been executed, how the timing or everything.

But also, this is episode five of a six-episode season. And so if they're plotting out when the face turn comes, and I used it correctly this week, when the face turn comes, comes, it's in the finale, right? I'm totally willing to be patient for it. And so if she's going after Luke, we know we'll be fine. If she's going after Luke because he would be good bait for Vader or whatever her justification is, if that's the moment, she decides this is a bridge too far. I've become the thing I sought to destroy, all that sort of stuff. I was just going to mention that same line.

Yes. Like, that's exactly what it hinges on, right? because you already mentioned, like, you know, watching in Mapuso as the kid gets his neck snapped. I mean, she killed Wade, Joe. Our guy Wade. The most important character that has ever existed in all the Star Wars. She can't kill Wade. No, but the torturing. Torture of the rebellion. Torturing Leah was a big one, obviously, but also just like the exchange they had about how, in essence, well, I always do this for the empire. You think about how many other moments like that there might have been with other children in peril.

So the shades and connections, the shades of the connections to Obi-1 telling Anakin, you've become the very thing you swore to destroy. If Riva has her moment of confronting that in the finale and we move through the phases of remorse and contrition, then it can still be a satisfying arc. I just think the way it's been parceled out to this point is in, and again, it's like,

the measuring stick is inside of the episode and inside of the series, right, where we're getting that deep introspection and reflection from Obi-1 and from Vader. So I can't decide if I... And, you know, I love TV shows. I'm not... I'm very rarely...

This should have been a movie person. Very rarely. Often the opposite. But I really feel... And again, I'll withhold final judgment, but I really feel like the show feels like it's either too short or too long. I can't decide which.

But, like, we either need, I think, eight to 10 episodes where we could have gotten an entire Riva episode. Like, what was that gutter? Let's go there together. I would have loved that. I mean, like, that's why I feel like we're missing. In theory, I would have loved that.

I'm sure that there were plenty of people have been like, oh, my God, I'm getting a whole fucking Riva episode, people for whom Riva is not working at all. But I think, you know, given that you and I are big fans of, like, a lost flashback or something like that, I think seeing Riva, when she says, and Moses Ingram delivered it so well, when she says, you have no idea what I've done alone. Great delivery. I also want to see it. I also want to see it. I agree. And I thought another just spectacular and agonizing line rate. And we're kind of weaving in and out of the two conversations that Riva and Obi-1 have. There's the initial exchange and then the subsequent exchange. When she is recounting Order 66 and says, I tried to help them, but I couldn't. I was too weak. When he left, I played dead. with the bodies felt them go cold. They were the only family I knew

and he slaughtered them. I mean, horrific and agonizing. Her voice is shaking as she's saying this. This is just like truly horrific and really terribly sad and Obi-Wan is closing his eyes and horror and despair. Yeah.

The I was too weak line there felt so key because it's so of a peace with Anakin's fall. I think it was Ryan again, Ryan Ari on screen. Some brilliant Star Wars, as a YouTuber made this connection and that I was just like, fuck yeah, right?

That Anakin felt too weak to save his mom. So he protects me. And that that fear of I can't protect the things I love is what leads to the dark side. Yes, exactly. And I think they're like asking us to make that connection with the phrasing here because she says he slaughtered them. And of course, that's like mirror phrasing to the way Anakin recounts what happens to Padme when he's when he's talking about what happened with the Tuskins.

And, like, I think it's important to remember that sometimes the beginning of the fall can be really pure. Like, that's when it's the most tragic, when you want to help and you feel, even though it was not your fault at all, that you failed someone in some way, whether it's Anakin with Schmey with his mother, right? Or Riva with the other younglings here. If that fear, fear, anger, path to the dark side. You already mentioned all of it. Yeah. If that leads to the quest for a level of power and control and might with Anacan or with Reva, that is like unholy. That is not something someone should possess.

Then that is a stark contrast to other characters who, and we'll talk about Tal and a bit, but we get another exchange between Tal and Obi-Wan about the lessons that you do actually have to learn from the past, right? that you can't just forget it. And so if you take that lesson of humility and simultaneously seek to not carry the burden alone, but reflect on where you do carry some culpability and then how you can try to be better in the future, then that can lead you forward in a positive way.

So I thought that was just like a really, really, really crucial moment. And those were the kinds of moments for Riva in this episode that I thought were incredibly poignant and powerful and loved and thought we're really resonant. And I just, I wish we, I wish that we had more time like that with her. And that, like you said, we could have seen what that looked like when she was alone. I agree. And what I think is so smart about this episode when it's working really well is that it's not just as you, the parallel comment that you made earlier is so funny.

But like the parallel between like Obi-1 and Vader and then Vader and Reva and Obi-Wen. And then so it's just triangulated. It's like a triangular signal between the three of them. And so when she says, I don't need your help, I don't need anyone is what she says to Obi-Wan. And it's this idea of like this, we've talked so long in this season, pre-season, about what are the lessons that Obi-1 needs to learn to turn from Revenge of the Sith, Obi-Wan Canobee to A New Hope, Obi-1, Kenobi.

And Old Ben, Hermit Ben in the desert, like, you know, he doesn't join. society. He's still in hiding by the time a new hope comes around. But I have to imagine that the next nine years are going to be less about self-punishment and sitting alone in the desert and not talking to anyone ever, right? This idea of, I need to be alone. You know, I can't help the rebellion. I needs to be alone versus like, I'm here for the boy. It's a subtle difference, but it's a difference, do you know? Yeah, definitely. And I think that there was a lot of reflection in both directions.

Like, you're right in these exchanges, there were a lot of moments where Riva forces Obi-Wong to confront a truth about himself as well. Like, the why would I ever trust you because we want the same thing, do we moment was really really want, do you really want Annegan Dead? And like the, again, we've talked so much this season about like the, the facial expression acting that you and McGregor is doing, but that this was really like a top tier example of it because that is the question. That is the question. And he can, he can barely bring himself to ask that question of himself. Like he literally like chokes out this little sound. Like a sweet, I don't think he's in reply, but he doesn't. I mean, of all the times that someone hasn't like, killed someone and finished them off. And in this episode alone, we get an inexplicable version of that.

Why didn't Obi-1 kill Anakin and Mustafa? I feel like this unlocks that for me. He cannot kill Anakin. He can't do it. He doesn't do it in a new hope, and he doesn't do it in Revenge of the Sith, and he's certainly not going to do it in the finale when they have their inevitable finale fight, right? He cannot kill Anakin. He can only tell himself that Anakin is already dead,

but he cannot be the one to kill him. I mean, he tells Yoda as much in Sith. Like, he says, I cannot do this, right? And I think that, you know, to your point about how he can't do it in a new hope either, I've been thinking about this a lot. Like, I think that one of the real... We talk a lot about the tragedy of Anakin Skywalker, right? The formative heart of what Star Wars was supposed to be

and what the story George Lucas was interested in telling. the more time we spend with Obi-Wan and the more time we spend with Obi-Wan and Anakin as a pair master and apprentice brothers I think one of the great tragedies of Star Wars is that while you are right and he never actually brings himself

to the point of killing him to wielding that fatal blow he does reach the point by a new hope where he believes that there's nothing left to save where he has let go of that last little ember of and believes that Anakin is truly lost. And that is like so devastating. But that, yeah, and that's exactly what I mean, is that he can only tell himself that Anakin is dead,

but he cannot strike the killing blow on this body, whether or not he considers it Anakin or Vator. He cannot do it. Yeah. And there's like, there's that, that next beat with Revan Obi-on is when she says, where were you while he was killing my friends? He was your Padawan. why didn't you stop and why didn't you save us? And there's like, you know, the actual like plot evolution and canon connection of like the Obi-Wan hollow that we get to see in rebels where we hear the message that he sent out and that he was not only not there to save them. He's like, don't go back to the temple.

Right, telling other people not to go. This is obviously like very intense and sad. There are some incredibly funny memes on the internet about like, well, I was riding a lizard. a lizard and battling grievous. But like, on the more emotional front, this, that question, that charge against him, like, it cuts to not just so much of the,

the reason, frankly, that this series exists, that they decided to make this show, but to the heart of the character, like that grief and that regret that have defined so much of Obi-1's life and the blame that he really does shoulder and feel that he carries, then also the entwined, like, need for him and for other characters, too, to move beyond that. And that was, that was really present here. Oh, painful.

It's painful. The last thing I want to say on the, on the Riva flash, I'm very, very pro whatever deaging or not that they did on Annigan. But I do have a question as to why he doesn't have his scar during Order 66 on his face. Do you have any thoughts or feelings about that? Oh, interesting. I think I was so captivated by the cuts between Riva in the present timeline and young Riva, you have the activation of the saber and this brief moment of hope. And then that like the way that the light bathes his face and you see his eyes widen and like the horror really sets in.

But I don't even know if I noticed that the scar wasn't there. It's a good question. It's a good question. That's a great scar, too. I love that scar. Maybe blue light just makes scars not appear. Was the hood far enough over that it could have been obstructing a part of his face? No, I guess not.

We also, you know, while we're on Riva, and we'll obviously get back to, I guess we'll get back to Riva when we talk about the Vader duel later so we can hit the Grand Inquisitor there. Because on the ship before they head down to Jubeem, he anoints her. Grand Inquisitor, which obviously is a farce as we will come to see. But there is this like very, especially on a rewatch, harrowing parallel of like you see that hesitation when he goes full Joffrey, you know, Neil, I said Neil. And you see that reluctance. And then we come to understand why,

because when they duel at the end of this episode and then in the flashback, that parallel of having him loom above her like that really just, was traumatic for her. Yeah, very traumatic. I mean, what's funny, okay, so when talking about, when I'm talking about the things that Obi-1 got wrong, he's assuming that Anakin is still going to behave the way that Anakin did in that flashback.

And in some senses, he's right. But in the sense where he's like, he doesn't have a patience for a siege or he doesn't have, you know, that's what he says, is not the theme of this. series, Vader likes to play with his food, right? Because he toys with Obi-1 when he drags him through the fire and leaves him there. He's obviously like toying with Riva through all of this. And then if we want to be really generous with our reading of this, I'll say that him letting

the second transporter go is him still toying with his food because there's no reason why he wouldn't be able to snatch that out of the sky. So, you know, is that not something that Anakin has learned since, which is like... Interesting. I say, I think it's a good point. I say no. I think that the transport sequence is the embodiment, not only of Obi-1's ability to understand Anakin's limitations, but how that impatience manifests.

The all he'll see is me, idea that you already noted, the fact that his obsession, his myopia is consistently his undoing. Single focus is different from like patience. I feel like, but I think they're connected with him. Because the fact that his focus and his obsession and his myopia are so all-consuming for him, lead him to act rashly.

I think that the distinction between, like the episode three letting him go and playing with his food point is a good one, I guess like that immediately, though, leads to this. real haste and this like fury when he thinks that he's alluded him even for a second. Did the tracker work? It has to work. How could you let him go? Oh, there's a tracker. Did it work? It has to work. Right. And I think there's a subtle distinction between him believing that he is superior and thus can always find him and his tendency to act rashly.

I think that impatience has always been a core part of Anakin well before his fall. I think in many ways, it's part of what makes him like such a fun and interesting character. He's not bound by the exact, like, tactics and approach that so many of the other Jedi are. He likes to innovate. He can think quickly and on his feet. And that's part of like what makes him

such a revelatory force user. But it's also part of what contributes to his hubris because he believes that the decision that he makes is going to be the right one, no matter how quickly he makes it. He very rarely stops to play out the string and think about the consequences. I guess then I have, I'm having trouble reconciling that characterization with someone who

would play the long game with Riva. And I think, and I think that's okay. I think that's just a failure of this plotline then, you know. I think that there are times when Anakin plays out, well, okay, so let's talk it out. There are definitely times where Anakin and or Vader pushes himself to be patient. like understands this is again one of the through lines he does actually hear the things that obi one is telling him like the way you see what's playing on his face in the last very last of the flashbacks this simultaneous like recognition as reluctant as he is to to make it that he does still have

more to learn with this real bitterness and resentment that obi won't just praise him won't just tell him that he's ready right and also like this sadness because he just wants just wants to be told like, good job, you're wonderful. You're the fucking prodigy, mid of glory and Jesus. Holy shit, like how great you are. Right. There are times where he's just like bored. Daddy, Goddy Quigon told me I was very special. Why don't you tell me I'm special? Exactly. There are so many times, though, where he's just bored. And he likes to like play these games basically to entertain himself. I think when Ben was on with us a couple weeks ago, he mentioned trying to remember exactly which pod we talked about this on. He mentioned the whole comic book arc where

basically Vader is like playing out this farce to have this force chase him and pursue him. Oh yeah. Like I think that the, the grand, I mean, there's, I don't think there's a way you can really say that the ultimate Grand Inquisitor is alive. And this whole making Reva think she was the Grand Inquisitor thing like totally lands in a satisfying way. I think the Grand Inquisitor stuff is pretty like actively bad. but Vader recognizing that he could use Riva to try to get closer to Obi-One. And he is ultimately, and this is part of what is so sad about their eventual confrontation, it's like a Don Draper, I don't think about you at all thing, right?

Like, he's not taking her seriously as a threat. And so the impatience manifests in a potent way for his character when he is actually deeply invested in the outcome, which he is with Obi-1. And so then he is blinded and reaches out for that first transport and doesn't stop to think about what Obi-1 might be doing and how he might be using the lessons of their past against him.

He's not thinking about Riva that way at all. She's just a pawn to him. And that's like part of what's so tragic about it. Yeah, of course. Of course she's a pawn, but it's still like a... I don't know. I still think there's a...

And it is fine for Star Wars characters to have inconsistent behavior because humans have inconsistent behavior. And I still think there is some sort of inconsistency invader in terms of like, like all of us, sometimes ration-impulsive and sometimes long-game toying just to entertain himself almost.

Do you know? So I think both can go exist. Yeah, but you're, I mean, you're absolutely right that it like stands out. The dissidents feels heightened when it's like what are the core themes of the episode, for sure, for sure. I mean, I think what's also true,

is that, I mean, again, we're skipping forward, but I think... Well, let's just talk about the Riva Vader duel while we're on them. Let's just hit that now, and then we'll go back to the jibem of it all. I really do think when he says, Obi-1 was wise to use you against me, like, and that's the whole, like, I use your weapon against you. Riva is the saber in this instance, and Obi-Wan has, if you want to say used, you could say used her against Vader.

But the fact that he saw that coming, again, I think, speaks to the lessons he picked up from that flashback as well. Do you know? You disagree. You think Vader has learned nothing from that exchange. I think it's significant that it's a flashback for both of them. So I think that they both have to be like learning and reflecting on the lessons of that fight. The flashback that we come out of, so we come out of a couple actually in like close sequencing there. We have the your need for victory, Anakin. It blinds you. line, right? Which is very much connected to this, you know, not seeing what is right in front of you because he's so eager to win. Then we go to Obi-1 has been disarmed. We'll just hit the

rest of the flashbacks here too. This is great. I love that we're off the road map. We're just, we're just going where our feeling, we're just searching our feelings, as the force would tell us to. Obi-1 doesn't have his saber, right? Which I want to return to the discovery of the crates of Sabres later when we talk about the latest wall etching perusal, because there's some interesting stuff to parse there, but we can hit that later. He whips around. He disarms Anakin with the force, claims Anakin Sabre is his own. Besting him, again, not because of skill, but because he's like more clever, more resourceful,

Anakin, the arrogance of just the certainty that he'd win, much like in episode three of this show. It's over. We get the actual, it's over, yes, Mustafa mentioned. And that to me feels like really emblematic of, I think I don't disagree with you that Vader has also learned things and that he is harping on this to try to apply what he thinks he has learned. I completely agree with that. I think that it's over is the embodiment of where that falls short for him.

Because when he says it's over, he's wrong. and when Obi-1 says he's over, he's right. Now, he's not right in the long arc of history. It's not over between them forever, but it was over in that moment. And I think that he has an ability to understand his own limitations and Anacens in the way that Anacan's Hubris just does not allow, right?

And so, like, we get the, You're a great warrior Anakin, but your need to prove yourself as you're undoing until you overcome it, a Padawan you will still be moment. A hilarious moment where Obi-Wan is doing like a Yoda impression, by the way. way.

Sure. Yeah, with our energy. With the sentence. Big you to move. Big you to move. But I think, I think, honestly, I think you guys, we are closer to agreeing than it might seem in terms of, like, I think, I definitely agree with you that, like, in terms of you're like, who learned the most out of this flashback, who got the,

who has the upper hand of the end of this episode, it's Obi-1 canobi, right? And who will ultimately learn the most out of this and have the upper hand as he comes out of this? Probably Obi-1 can-O-be because he survives, right? But I just think that they're, I think they're both studying this moment, which is just emblematic of their long history, to try to anticipate what the other one will do.

And I Vader makes some right moves and some wrong moves. Yes. Yes. I love the, in addition to the Yoda energy, I love the smile on Obi-Wan's face there because he's like genuinely glad that he still has something to teach Anakin. It's so sad to revisit that. And Anakin is just looking so like abashed.

And again, we know where that resentment ultimately leads. Like I like the Padawan line is an interesting one to parse. And I'll eventually get back to the Reeve of Vader. Seeing that led to this long aside anyway, but it's obviously all deeply connected. As you said, it's like a, it's less of just a dyad or a tube character parallel and more of a triangle here. Like the Padawan line is such a nice nod.

to the New Hope but the learner moment. But, like, so I'm curious, let's just keep jumping around. We have no order anymore.

I already move to this section. We're out in the deserts of Jubeem. Some people who I've chatted with about the episode, and by some people, I mean, my husband Adam and our podcast manager, Arjuna, believe that it is not only possible,

but probable. that we will not see an Obi-1-Vader confrontation in the finale, in part because of this line. I will say, I'm happy to be wrong on podcasts. This will not, this will not be, if that ends up being true, this will not be the first time I've been wrong, it won't be the last time. I consider that impossible.

Completely impossible. I'm with you. With love and respect to Adam and Arjuna, I'm completely with you. I think it's going to be, I think it's interesting to try to reverse engineer. I was but a learner now I am the master. Yes.

I think that is interesting. There's the whole tat to wean of it all, which we'll talk about later, that makes that figuring out how it can happen complex, admittedly. But in terms of the Padawan Lurter thing, like, that relies on it happening on Tatumann, which I don't think it necessarily needs to. Right. It depends how long the finale is. Many locations.

Yeah. But the finale is a, oh, boy. Like, we're going to Tatooine eventually, right? Riva's headed there. But that doesn't mean that Vader is headed there necessarily. Well, I sure hope not. Because then it makes, then nothing makes any sense, right? That's, like, probably the one canon bridge.

that I, like, can't accept if that happens, yeah. Here's where I want to get really in my head about this, like, fight that you and I feel are convinced has to happen in the finale. Yep. And it's this other line from the flashback duel that I think is, because I think the flashback duel lessons are going to be important, not only for this, but also for the final conflict. Absolutely.

Mercy doesn't defeat an enemy master. This is where I was going next. Which is why you're going to lose, right? So in my head, canon, again, summer of, so many expectations for you and me. Like, we didn't make any promises to fan that we wouldn't have expectations. In my dream that I've come up for this final confrontation, they fight Obi-1 as the upper hand,

but he doesn't kill Vader and he leaves. We're 100% aligned. Yeah. And here's where I'm going to hit you with two. Because this, when... Are you going Thrones here? Are you going Ned Madness of Mercy? I'm not.

I'm going to... That's where I was going to go. Okay. I have you with Thrones? Isleism and a harryism coming. That's so funny that you have a Thronesism and a Harryism. I have a Tolkienism and a Shakespeareism. Oh, this is perfect.

This is just peak out of our right here. Let's just go back and forth. You start. Go. You first. Go. Take me to middle earth. I demand a fucking smuggle voice.

I was promised. This is not a smeggle line. Gadal says, this is one of my favorite lines, fellowship, right? Pity. It's a pity that stayed Bilbo's hand. pity and mercy, not to strike without need. My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet for good or ill before the end. And when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many.

Yours not the least. One of my all-time favorite lines. All-time fave. Yeah. This idea that like... But can you give it to them? Wisdom from Gandalf. Right.

About imparting justice. And that, that, you know, he says in that, in a similar passage, he says, you know, like, does he just, basically, essentially, I'm paraphrase, does he deserve to die? Yes, like many live who deserve death and many die who deserve to live, but will you be the one to give it to them? Yeah, you know? Chills. Right? Chills.

Yeah. So this idea that, you know, especially when the force, Jedi say the force is meant to use to defend not attack, that there's a way, you know, I think this idea of Obi-1 having mercy on Vader here, whether or not he deserves it. And in the long game, and this is eventually that whole Bilbo's pity idea, which is one of my favorite concepts in all of Lord of the Rings, that applies most directly to Luke, right? Luke believing that there is something in Anakin and, like, you know, pulling for that means that Vader's eventual face turn in Return of the Jedi, sort of similar to the wrestling. The action of Spiegel. I've just gotten a lot of tweets last week. is key to the end of the empire, the temporary halting of Palpatine

until suddenly he returns. Okay, hit me... So now. So now. And I'll hit you quickly with Shakespeare before you hit me with Thrones and Harry, which is... Hit me with the Bard! Very famous, very famous speech from The Purchin of Venice.

The quality of mercy is not strained. It dropeth as gentle from heaven, as the gentle rain from heaven, upon the place beneath, it is twice blessed. It blesseth him that gives and him that takes. Mercy is something. It is a divine concept. It is from God to forgive divine, like all of that, all of that concept.

And so if you are a truly enlightened Jedi, you are merciful. I love this. I'm with you 100%. I think this is such a thematically rich vein to tap. I, it makes me even more desperately sad that Obi-1 ends up in only a master of evil Darth But there's so much, there's honestly still so much story to tell between now and then. I, the reason that it made me think of Thrones and, you know, one of the most consequential moments in Thrones history, which is the exchange between Varus and Ned about the madness of mercy.

And I've always been one of the things that I love about a song of ice and firing Game of Thrones and love about George R. Martin's storytelling is that he's so unafraid to look at the dark side of what could be an empowering idea, right? And the way that in certain characters hands, like the way we see Vader or Anakin, thinking about mercy, this thing that should be good and pure can be warped. And the tragedy of Ned's, again, Game of Thrones spoilers. you know, so much of the tragedy of Ned's fall, and not just in that moment, not just with the

decision of what to do with the children and the red keep, right? But everything dating back, as we've talked about before and surely will again to the decisions that he made in the first place about John and what secrets to share and what secrets to keep. And when the instinct to protect can be your undoing, but also like the fact that that is. is okay and that that doesn't mean you shouldn't try. Like, just if something goes wrong and just if you lose, it doesn't mean that you were wrong to want to do the right thing. And, you know, so the Harry moment, which is one of my favorite half-blood Prince sequences,

is atop the lightning struck tower when Draco and Dumbledore are facing off. And Dumbledore says, no, Draco, it is my mercy that matters now. right? And that feels like maybe a very close parallel even to what you're sketching out for a potential finale conflict where there can be a decision to walk away. There can be a decision to not strike down your opponent. And like, I just, I don't know, the idea that something that Anakin views as a weakness, mercy, being a source of differentiation and strength and the thing that helps Obi-Wan really, really keep finding that path, finding that way, walking back into that light, turning on that light and immersing himself in the power and majesty of the force

again. Like, Obi-1 says later in the episode to Hajah, he expects me to surrender. He knows I'll do everything I can to protect these people. And again, this connects to this idea across the season. We saw it with the Inquisitors in episode one, the Jedi, like the idea that the compassion can be here undoing is very much of a piece with this. Because, like, the characters that we root for can't allow that to be true. Like, they can't allow that to be true. And it's similar to this idea of, like, using your weapon against you, right? They're using, it's not a weapon, but it is, like, the Jedi's strongest tool or strongest, you know, whatever.

Is their compassion, right? And to try to use that against them is the Sith way, you know? I love that point. and I think we should go, because now we're just going so out of order and I love it. We're going by the order of theme. Let's talk.

That makes me think about the box of lightsabers that Obi-1 discovers. And there are a couple different moments in this episode where that's relevant. There's confronting the mess, the etching on the wall and the crate of lightsabers, which I'll circle back to in a second,

but there's the handoff when he gives his saber and the hollow projector, which we simply must carve out a solid four hours to discuss. Bail, I have some notes. We'll talk about that later. And Haja, I have some notes.

Oh, my God. It's, woo. Oh, Obi-1 Canobi gave me a handful of precious items, and I'm definitely just going to drop one of them. I mean, look, like Mando put the Dark Sabre in luggage check. Like, characters do confounding things with precious heirloops all the time. But yes, some tough stuff from Haja and Obi here. But thematically, you know, Rokin says in that moment,

you want to tell me how you're going to fight without a weapon? And Obi-1 says there are other ways to fight. And the reason I thought of that with what you were just saying is because we think of the lightsaber as this embodiment and manifestation of what it means to be a Jedi. And in many ways it is. But I think one of the real areas of interest for this series is embracing a larger view of what it truly means to be a Jedi and truly means to tap into the force and be attuned to the force in a way that is helpful and positive and good.

light side, right? So it made me think of a couple Yoda callbacks. We've talked about our guy yodes a lot today. Your weapons, you will not need them. I had this in my notes. Yeah, I thought it so many times in this episode, both with Obi-1 looking down at the crate because you think how devastating is it that all of those force users, my read on it was that they were not the lightsabers of fallen Jedi because we know that those would be in Fortress Inquisitorious or with the empire elsewhere, they left those behind to go live a life of hiding, right? Because it's a giveaway, as we know from Canaan and others, right?

And on the one hand, how tragic that is. But on the other hand, how empowering it is. Because putting that lightsaber in a box doesn't mean necessarily abandoning every aspect of your life as a Jedi. There are all of these other ways. And like, what's the other thing that on the heels of that great Yoda quote? What else does he say to Luke? Well, what is he going to find in there?

Only what you take? What you take with you. Yes. Yes. What's in there? Only what you take with you. That's what matters. And I think surrendering the lightsabers, but I thought of it also, yeah, when Obi-1 gives up his

lightsaber, right? And he's sort of like, he's walking in only what you take with you. And I think, you know, the empire parallels are not quite what we expected, but I do think this idea of Luke going into the tree cave in Degabah and discovering in such a just of Campbell Way, like himself inside the Vader suit, and Obi-1 having to reckon with the ways in which he abandoned the younglings, if you want to put that on him, that his hands are not entirely clean of that, you know,

that he had a role to play in that, much like Anakin did. I love the other, there's a new hope echo there too, because, you know, there's that great Obi-Wan Han moment as they're nearing the Death Star where he says you can't win, but there are alternatives to fighting. And I love thinking about, like, how a moment here on Jubeem with Roken and all of these characters

could have helped inform Obi-Wun's real belief in that idea and, like, sharing that with Han later. In terms of the wall etchings, which are, which are, Obi-1 is reading and parts, lots of, lots of Easter eggs. The legend's character references about, much like on Mapuzo when he was looking at the etchings in the safe house and discovered the Quinlan message,

like he's very pensive, very reflective. And the inscription that he reads here is the light will fade but is never forgotten. And I loved this. Did you not love it? I know I absolutely love it. I'm having a big moment with all of these, like, graffiti, the light conversation. because, I mean, we're already running so long. But, like, do you have a moment to talk about our Lord and Savior, Bendu?

I want to talk about... I always have a minute to talk about Bendu. I want to talk about this idea. There's a... Okay, so one time I was talking to... It's really smart writer friend of mine who was talking about how he was like, don't you think it's funny that a lot of people who grew up on Star Wars, let's talk about, like, Gen X, some millennials, et cetera,

that when you ask them their idea of religion, they believe in something that sounds a lot like the force. And when he said that to me, I was like, yeah, that's actually kind of, because I don't have an organized religion, but I believe in a sort of thing that surrounds us and runs through us. Like I do. It's the force, essentially. But something that's always bothered me about the force is this idea of the light side, light side, dark side. Like, I hate a binary. I really hate a binary.

Which is why Bendu has always been, like, has always been since he showed up in rebels. like my favorite figure when talking about the forest. I don't know if we've talked about Bendu much. This is a treat for me. But what I found really helpful in this Obi-1 series, which is sometimes very poorly written and sometimes beautifully written, are all these comments about the light being not just good versus bad, Master of Evil is such a terrible line and a terrible phrase.

but a light in the dark, a hope, you know, like light side sounds so much better when you're thinking of it, not as like the right side or the good side, but as the hopeful side, the helpful side, the merciful side, all that sort of stuff. I just, so I have found all of these little phrases about the force as an idea, as a physical light in the dark, very moving. I'm having the same reaction to it. I'm really with you here. And I think that like one of the Bandoom moments that I love so much and it connects very deeply to this idea that you're highlighting is when he's like, I don't have the exact word for word quote, but he's speaking with Canaan. This is the beginning of season three of Rebels. and he's the canaan is presented the holocron the Sith holocron and Benju says

him an object cannot make you good or evil the temptation of power forbidden knowledge like it says uh i think he says even the desire to do good can can lead some down that path but then the the the kicker is but only you can change yourself and that's like one of my favorite Star Wars lines and favorite Star Wars ideas, because as you're saying, it rejects this very strict reading of an either or. There's so much room for nuance with an idea like that. Only you can change yourself. Well, how do you decide to try? How long does it take? It's every decision that you make. Like, it's the totality of the choices in your life. And when Obi-1 is looking at that inscription, the light will fade, but has never forgotten. Like, of course, we think back to that

beautiful exchange between Leah and Obi-1, where he's asking what it feels, well, she asks what the force feels like? And he asks her, well, what does it feel like when you, you know, turn on a light in the dark? Right. Safety, safety. And I think that this line, it speaks so fully to Obi-1's relationship to the force and also to the galaxy's relationship to the force, right? Like to the way that this receded from you. Think about a line like Motties, your sad devotion to that ancient religion line in a new hope, right? The Jedi, the connection to and presence of the force

on an individual level for Obi-1 here and the years leading up to the show more broadly across galactic history. It changed, it receded, but it wasn't forgotten. And so when Obi-1 sees, like, Quinlan's message in episode three or this message here, that helps him. hold on to that hope. And that hope is then the way that he decides to change. Only you can change yourself.

I was just looking at that Bendu quote this morning. And I was actually thinking about it as I really was literally. And I was thinking about how it applies to Riva, right? The temptation of power for good knowledge. And even the desire to do good can lead some down that path. But only you can change yourself. Bendu. Bendu.

My guy. He fucking rules. Love Bendu. we've got to talk about Tala. We didn't circle back to the Reva Vader, Duel. I will just say that,

as I mentioned already, I thought that was like incredibly riveting television. And the fact that the level of the taunt. Again, playing with his food, right? He could have killed her right away.

And he's like, no, sure, let's do this fight. And I will not even draw my weapon. Yes. The, like, it's interesting too because as a compare and contrast like that there are other ways to fight line that is guiding Obi-1

you could say there's a way to read it where you could say like Vader has learned that lesson two Anakin has learned that lesson two but to me it was like he's not facing her without it the way he's facing her initially without his he doesn't use a saber he doesn't draw it right he's using the force at first to

to challenge and block her twisting her around with her her inquisitorial blade, then disarming her, splitting the blade, getting both of them back. Like, it's just unbelievable choreography

and unbelievable to watch. Like, it doesn't feel like a real recognition of wisdom with him. It's just a pure taunt. It's a power play. And between that and the, the transport pull,

which is a, it's a funny Star Wars moment because, like, I gasped. I thought it was incredible. It looked so cool. it's Vader at the absolute peak of his strength and power. Like, it looked, it looked easy for him.

It makes you think of Ray. Not in a, not in a great way in terms of the chewy, the way the chewy plotline ultimately on spools and rises. The chewy is on another transporter. It's tough. It's a rocker. It's bad. It's bad.

Of sins of that movie. And also, like, one of the encapsulations of how something that could have been, like, incredibly potent ended up just being, like, walked back and undone for no reason. Makes you think of StarKiller, The Force Unleash. There's an Asoka moment with a mall ship. So, like, there are these great echoes to other moments of Star Wars history. And then also, this is something Lindberg talks about a lot with, like, the whole maneuver and other things.

Like, you kind of can't help but say, like, why doesn't this happen all the time? Why doesn't anyone who's strong enough do this all the time? But I just personally, I don't care. I thought it was so cool. I loved it. No, it was cool. Limber slacked us about the Holder maneuver and I was like...

Yeah, it's a good point. It's a good point. But also the hold of maneuver. I was just like, this is one of the great thrills of my life as a moviegoer. I love the Hold of Moodoover, honestly. But I think that it's less the pull it out of the sky, rip it open like a sardine can sort of thing and more the like... And I can yada yada, like in his haste, in his impatience, in his rage,

he, in his excitement and glee of finally getting Obi-Wan in front of him or whatever. His need for victory and blinded him. He forgot to sense whether or not there was anyone actually on board that transport. Oh, you're going, Danny kind of forgot about the art. And Bader kind of forgot to sense life forms

in another transport. It's really consistent. The way the force sensing works deeply inconsistent and that's fine. It's the way that Homeland Lander's superhero hearing works on the boys. Yeah, yeah, and Vaughn HQ. When the plot needs it too, it does, and when it doesn't, it doesn't.

Anything else I want to say? Oh, well, I mean, I just want to shout out. I always love lightsaber choreography, often incredible. And often what's great about a lightsaber fight is that it is almost always telling us something about that character. I would want to say always, but maybe almost always. The way in which they took the inquisitorious lightsaber, which is such a cool device,

and used it every which way you possibly could in this fight, including having Vader at one point give us an Asoka stance is just some of the best fight choreography I've ever seen. The Asoka mirror image with him holding the two blades gave me a chill. I sure it did. It made me think of actually because there's the most, There's the moment where Riva thrusts the blade and Vader just like turns his head

just in time and it doesn't make contact with his helmet and that made me think of Asoka too. Twilight of the Apprentice, the duel on Malacor between Anakin and Asoka, one of my favorite Star Wars sequins ever, one of my favorite Star Wars duels. I'm wondering if we will get and we've talked about this before, but like I really felt here that they were teasing us for that?

Like will we get contact with the helmet and a split so that Obi-Wan in their final showdown can see Anakin's face? beneath and we can hear Hayden's voice the way that we that the way that in rebels we heard an anikin break through the Vader modulation and say Asoka and it's like one of the most agonizing moments in Star Wars history give us give us the old and a return of the Jedi humpty dumpy Anakin. Not that, no, but maybe like, you know, breach one of his eye shield so that we could just get a little glimmer of the human face below.

Before we talk about what Riva crawls toward, which is the bail, a hollow message. Bail! Anything else you want to say about the Grand Inquisitor? I mean, he comes in, he flexes, he makes a speech about revenge. Powans have two stomachs, so he was fine. It's stupid, though. Where was he like... You got to do your quigon bit here, because you have some...

There's a lot of stomach stabbing in this season, and everyone's fine. As there's been stomach wound storytelling, a cross star was recently. Fenwick as well, right? Obviously, mall cut in half, fine. And I will say on the rear front, that was another loop that closed when Vader stabs her in the present timeline and we see the stabbing of Order 66. We had talked about that moment in episode three where she touches like her abdomen.

So we got that loop closed here. Any quagon abdomen wound speeches that you'd like to make here? So I know this is important to you. This is wholesale lifted from the Mint Edition boys, Stephen Jomey. We were talking about this. If a lightsaber in the gut means nothing. That is quagongin a joke to you.

I think it's cheap no matter what to, I hate a fake-out death, whether it's Chewy on a transporter or the fucking Grand Inquisitor who we knew was in rebels. It's just particularly confounding here because of the rebels. Yeah, I hate a fake-out death. It's so weird. Why? But like for Riva to be stabbed and then for her to be like, I mean, maybe if she were crawling towards the back to tank and was going to like haul herself into the back to tank,

which sounds really hard to do because you have to. to harness yourself up and stuff like that. Like, maybe. But she's crawling yourself, and I imagine she's just going to be mostly fine by next week, maybe clutching her side a bit. So Quygonjin, one of the greatest Jedi's of all time, it makes his death look like ridiculous

if everyone's surviving lightsaber. Like, I can listen to you argue that a lightsaber stab cauterizes the wound in real time, but then why did Quigone go out like that? Maybe because he was, he'd done his force ghost training, you know? We'll have Ben on to talk about that later, but maybe he was just ready. It's just ready. Let me, can I just do a dramatic reading of what a secrecy expert,

Bail O'Gauna says on this comms message? I just, you can. I need to, like, take a deep breath and collect myself first because I find this like one of the most upsetting things that's ever happened in Star Wars history. Seriously. I know we said no, could. communication, but your silence worries me. If he's found you, if he's learned of the children, if I don't hear from you soon, I'll head to Tatooine.

Owen needs help with the boy. I pray you're safe, Obi-Wan, both of you. Terrible. So obviously, he's got all the information there to give Reval the information she needs to find Luke if she needs to. But there's no reason for Bill. This is insane. If I don't, if I don't hear from you, I'm going to go see about some moisture farming or something or something. Use a fucking code.

You're one of the founders of the rebellion and you routinely work with agents who use the code name Folkrum because it is so important to communicate in coded fashion. Bail Organa, I'm going to spoil something for you, Joe. My secret scroll today is Bail Organa because there's no other explanation for how Bail Organa. has forgotten everything about their secret keeping and risk-averse tactics. He might as well have just said, I know we said no communication, but here is our entire secret plan. Like,

I am so befuddled by this that the only, the only thing I am able to hold on to is, maybe this is why Leah's message to Obi-1 in a new hope was so basic and cold. Couldn't put any personal details in there, because Bail Organa had fucked it up so badly nine years prior. Okay? It's the only way.

Oh, you've solved it. You solved it. I can wrap my head around. Wow. Everything makes sense now. Thank you, Bail, Argana, for making that make sense. Oh, my God. Bail, you saved a new hope.

You did it. Devastating move from Bail Argana here. So we still have to talk about Tala, but should we talk about the tattooing implications of this now? Or do we want to hit Tala and Leia quickly? and then move to the tattooing implications. This is going to be the longest podcast ever, but I just want to say this. I'm having a blast.

Me too. Thrill of my week. Chris and Andy, who we love and adore, are not hanging with the OB-1 series. That's fine. Love them so much. But something that I've heard Andy talk about a lot recently because I was listening to them also cover Better Call Saul,

is this idea of a prequel where we know the outcome, We know the fates of so many characters, how that saps the drama out of something. And Joby Harold talked to us about this a little bit, that like, Riva is the, is the question mark, or I guess Tala was a question mark in a series where we know, we know Obi-Wan survives, we know Vader survives, we know Luke survives, we know Leia survives, et cetera, et cetera, and that they all are in their places at the beginning of a new hope. I don't always agree with that, especially when it comes to Better Call Saul. I don't always agree that knowing that someone survives something saps all the tension out of it. That being said, cutting to little Luke tucked up in his bed in Tatooine, I'm like, that kid's fine. I don't know.

Whatever drama. That dumb farm kid is going to grow up to like have a perfectly, a boring, a boring life until Lily's Tatooee. Plain about Tashi Station. So what am I supposed to be scared of? Like what am I supposed to feel here? So that's sort of how I felt. How do you feel? Incredible.

So funny. Like I'm feeling a lot of tension and passion and excitement about how the final Vader-O-B-1 confrontation will go and how these two people can part ways and still live. I'm feeling a lot of tension and passion around how what role Quigone is going to play and we're talk to Ben about that. But is Luke going to be okay? Yeah. Right.

Yeah. So it's a great point. To the, I mean, it was one of the questions heading into the series, right? And I will say to the overall stakes question, I am firmly in the, to me, stakes are not just whether a character lives or done. camp. 100%. Like, I am so, especially with characters

like Obi-1 and Vader who we've spent so much of our lives learning about and spending time with, I just really want to better understand what headspace they were in

and quite literally what they were doing in these missing years. So that's enough for me. You're irrefutably right, though, to note that there's a sapping of some of the dramatic tension

when we end on a shot of a slumbering boy who we know will, moisture farm for years to go, right? Lots of chaseless bigs in his future. Like, the implication of that shot is, will this child be okay? Like, that's the implication of that shot.

And yeah, life or death stakes are not the most important thing. What we can learn about, Obi-1. Someone sent me a tweet this week that was really interesting about, like, what we can learn about Leah in terms of, like, her reluctance to be a leader and, like, all this sort of stuff like that.

Well, I learned about Leah that she's got an Ezra-like vent-crawling game. Going. Great. Great stuff. The other thing I learned about Leah, let's just get rid of this stupid side plot really quickly. Aggressive chittering, you said that. That's your first note to us about the episode. It's really up there with like distending wetly for me, aggressive chittering of Lola. Flesh distends wetly can't be topped and I won't hear an argument. I'm jury. But carry on.

But the, someone else tweeted at me this week. they were like, or no, it was for our mailbag. It's not in our mailbag this week, so I feel fine saying it. He was like, what was your favorite, what's your favorite child actors cannot work too many hours on a set move? Was it the double kidnapping of Leah or was it shoving her up a vent for the entirety of this episode, right? Like, she has to keep short hours, so let's just give her a side plot.

And at least they like, she wasn't like cowering in a cave. She was doing something active, I suppose. But whatever, that happened. Leah went up event and cured Lola and fixed a circuit breaker. I'm glad that Lola's back. Glad to see the blue sheen in her eyes instead of the evil red. I guess the restraining bolt turned her evil. Don't totally understand that compared to past restraining bolt usages across the vast history of Star Wars canon.

I guess we're meant to understand that because it makes her compliant, that her commands then were to act in that fashion fine. I The The ladder exchange was Just Okay Here's what I'll say Go and Kenobi

Do what she asks you trust me I trust her get her the ladder Not the finest moment for this character It was an interesting like Okay and I have no issue with the actual like vent plot Because that is actually something that like Ezra joke was sincere like That's something that

that happens all the time with Ezra and rebels and other characters. Like, you got to crawl to event to solve a thing. That's fine. The thing that really stood out to me here was it's this argument and this back and forth, Haja, Rokin, Leah, Obi-One. It highlighted to me like how strange the dynamic on Jabeem is with these characters, half of whom we are as invested in as like any characters in our lives as story consumers and half of whom we have literally just met and know nothing about. And so to watch this exchange between them, and we have no. no attachment to or understanding of this collective is, like, surreal. Did you see my tweet about, like, what can you tell me about Rocha?

I did. Yeah. Got a lot of replies, a lot of great replies to that. Yeah. I need to care about Roquen more than I do. I need to care about Hajim more than I do just base on the, you know, I care because he's played by Camille and Johnny, but that's not enough, right? I cared about Tala, but they killed her.

So... Let's talk about this for a minute. I was devastating. By this. Really mad. Demasted. Just upset. It was so stupid.

It just felt so... Okay, first of all, Tull is the only character that they bothered to, like, give us an investment in, right? She's so good, and Deer Varma's so good.

She's an incredible performance and character. I wanted to be with her for years. I want her to be on Ainder for 24 episodes. This reminds me of them blowing up Jennifer Beals and Boeufet, and I was like,

no, one character I cared about. So, you know, they kill Deervarma. Okay, maybe they invested her so much in her so that we would care more when she dies. But, like, it felt so ineffectual to me. It's like she blows herself up for Obi-1 to then just immediately surrender himself. He is like- And it's just discussed, Joe.

A gut wound doesn't need to be fatal. No. Obi-1 is literally like two stormtroopers away from her. two like straw men away from her and he can't fight through them to get to her. The number of times that we see characters and I will say I was emotionally like moved seeing him call out and cry out Tala

no over and over and over again and I was emotionally touched when Ned B who also took took some fatal damage powered down and like he had Tala embraced and Ned's final act was to try to shield her. That was very sweet and that was very moving. but we see so many force push or force pull maneuvers in this series. Now, most of those are like an act of viciousness, but let the force do some work for you here.

Force pull Tala right out of harm's way through the breach. Like, let's think on our feet a little bit here, Obie. Come on, my guy. Also, my note to Tala is the same as my note to every character in Star Wars history who has ever had a thermal detonator. Not everyone, because sometimes shout out Leah, shout out Return of the Jedi. They use them effectively.

This reminded me so powerfully, I know you have other examples that you want to cite, other callbacks. This reminded me so powerfully of IG-11 in Mando and they're exiting the lava flows and IG-11,

our beloved nurse droid uses the thermal detonator to sacrifice himself to take out the troopers. Why? And why did this happen here? You've got a bomb in your hand. Throw it.

toward the people who are charging at you. This doesn't need to happen. I don't understand. It was on the heels of another, actually, like, really interesting conversation between Obi-Wan and Tala. On the one hand, it had the instant, like, oh, we are getting a backstory download here.

I have a classic Star Wars. I've got a bad feeling about this in terms of what might happen next, right? But, like, Tala is talking, and Obi-1 is not saying anything. It's just that you in facial expression acting in return and there's still such like crackling energy and chemistry between them that you just want more of it.

You want more scenes with them. And there's more of a lesson, right? And this was rewarding because it was a lesson that worked in both ways. Like we talked last week about how when she told him like that he had to forget the past, it's like, no, that's not the lesson. And here, we hear that she has realized that. Yeah, some things you can't forget her past either. You have to channel it so that you can find your purpose moving forward.

and we learn about her and more of her history with the, with the empire and taking out those four, four sensitive families and this like scales off of the eyes moment for her. But I just, I don't know what, why she had to go. I just don't know why she had to go. And he looked despondent. And I will say also, Joe, that this was like, okay, Tal has been in Obi-Wan's life for three episodes of television.

So I don't want to be too extreme here. She is obviously not someone that he has known as long as Quigon or someone he is known as. long as Sotene. But I was really struck watching his response to her death by just, like, reflecting on, and we talked about this in our Obi-1 Primer pod, how many people he cares about, he has watched die right in front of him, and how devastating that is for him. Like, this just really tragic through line of his life.

It's just too much loss for one person to bear. And because of that, I don't think it needed to happen here. Also tragic, like, are you and I and our dreamed nine years where maybe she could make conjugal visits to Tadme in? out the door. I do want to talk devastating. Something I learned

this week about of all the droids we've seen sacrifice themselves to save our heroes. L337, I do love when you mentioned, blah, blah.

K2SO and Rogue 1 is the saddest for me. Ned B did a great heroic job here, but K2SO and I just found out this week, have you ever read, have you read the Rogue One novelization?

No. Okay. Can I, tell you what K2SO is thinking as he dies, because it's in the novelization. With one second left until total shutdown, K2SO chose to mentally simulate an impossible scenario in which Cassian Ander escaped alive. The simulation pleased him. Like, oh my God.

Smart wrenching. Oh, my God. Anyway, I love K2SO. I love droids. Tali, you deserve better the end. Will we see Tala again? How can we? I don't know.

Oh, a young Tala prequel series? Yeah. Flashbacks. Sure. Maybe. Maybe. Okay. What else do we need to hit before our quick rundown of the pre-finally questions, most of which we've covered already?

Anything else from the episode that we haven't hit? I don't think so. I think I got everything I wanted to say. I quote a little Shakespeare. Oh, I'm just going to go back to this one line. Because all he'll see is me. is one of the most romantic things I've ever heard in my entire life.

And I'm not trying to like pride month any sort of like brother, you know, whatever relationship that Obi-1 Anakin can have. I'm just saying that is a fucking romantic thing to say. It's all he'll see is me. It's an incredible line also like same. Just, oh my God.

He hung us. Vader, we've... I know, yeah. On the tattooing front as we look ahead, I... I guess I'll just say, and again, I'll be patient. Can't wait to see the finale. I'm holding out to hope that it's a heater.

I thought that leaving Tatouine in the first episode was one of the smartest choices the show made. And avoiding so many of these, well, Luke cannot find out about X, Y, and Z. And Vader certainly cannot find out that Luke or Obi-Wan are there. He can't find out that Luke exists. Like, both the films, the comics, like, it is cemented canon when Vader learns that he has a son.

Like, nothing can jeopardize that. I was having brunch on Sunday before this episode with one of my best pals in the world. And we were arguing vigorously about the show because he's not a fan. And he was really excited for it. And this was, again, before the Luke ending here, we were just talking about the Tatooine element

in the first place. It's not the one you know. Okay. But you'd love them. It's great. And he said that one of the things he was like, he thought the show needed to do. I might be slightly mischaracterizing this. If so, I'm sorry.

But I think this is an accurate summation. One of the things he thought the show needed to do or was hoping that it would do regarding Luke was actually explain why Obi-1 wound up back there for that many years living that hermited life. I think he said this on the, heels of me saying one of the things I was struggling with was after like walking through the Hall of Corpse trophies in Fortress Inquisitorious, how Obi-1 could like stop the fight. You made the great point last week. Well, maybe he doesn't, right? Maybe this hermit life is like a cover and that

would be really cool if that ends up being the case. The only thing I'm kind of holding on to with this Luke return is that introducing a threat to Luke and you could see when Obi-1 feels Reva discovering the fucking bail message at the end. Like he feels, he says something's wrong. His body changes his face. changes. You can feel a disturbance in the force. Nothing. I think you're just trying to calm Roakin down, you know? Let's just let Roakin worry. He's got other stuff on his mind, like the umpteenth busted hyper drive in for rebellion history. But like, moving away from only focusing on Luke into this wider view of how he can help and why it is worth being back in the fight is a huge

part of like the moral of this story and this part of Obi-1's arc. So I don't want anything to jeopardize that. But you don't. You don't. do actually need the show to explain how he ends up back there. And so maybe reintroducing a threat directly to Luke helps explain that. But like, it does just feel naughty. And I mean, and maybe, again, we're summer of expectationing this, right? But like maybe also we need like a little bit of a repair of the Owen Obi-1 relationship. A reason for.

Well, Reba's going to head right there because she knows who Owen is because they had a lengthy chat. I know. Oh my God. So, Bailer Gona. But like, yeah, so like, let's say, Obi-1 and Vader have their whole thing, and this is almost like a coda of like, and he's headed back to Tatween, and then there's a danger there.

And maybe, again, I'm just fanficking, but like maybe Owen is like, hey, we need you here after all. You being a creep in the desert is actually very important to us. So please stay a creep in the desert. It was great to see the same vantage point from Obi's old perch.

you know, looking down with the Lars Homestead and he wasn't there. Sure. All right. Wait, but then how? Play out, play out that string for a minute. So Riva goes there. She goes to Owens, to the Lars Homestead, right? Yeah.

She's like, hey, I know everything. Literally everything thanks to bail. Yeah. Loose lipstick shifts bail on. Owen reaches out. He asks for help. Obi-on comes back. Has he dropped Leah off on Alderon at this point?

Or is she with them? She's got to be out. She's got to be on Alderon, right? Okay. Yeah. Vader, we hear when Rokin says that the hyper drive is busted, they say they're on the tail, right? Like they're tracking them. They're behind them.

So if they go to Tatooine, how does Darth Vader not wind up there? What if it's like... What does the show do to avoid that? That's like the one, they can't do that. I don't... What if it's like, Leah, I mean, any order of operation, of like lay a drop Vader-O-B-1 fight

or Obi-1 knowing that Vader's on their ass and only his eyes for him decoys so that they can lay a drop. You know what I mean? But then so who deals with Riva on Tatooine? Because that being this follow-up, but that feels like the wrong order to me.

You're probably, that's probably right. I think you're right. That's a de-escalation. That's a real calm down. I completely agree. I still think it has to be that order. I think, I think Vader has to be. It's a satisfying ending if Vader and...

It's the same reason I think it's impossible for us to not get another conflict because I think an open-ended final confrontation between them could be very satisfying. But we need one more showdown. I have a great... Did you solve it? I have a great way to segue. Are we going to Mustafa? I have a great way to segue into Ben Lindberg.

As much of a de-escalation, like, bummer it will be to go from a Vader-O-B-1 fight back to Riva. Lord bless her. If we end with a major quigone interaction, will that not feel like a high? You know what I mean? That's compelling to me because I have been thinking that we needed the quigon, the communing with quagon sequence to happen before the final confratory, final inside of the show, obviously not final overall confrontation between Obi-1 and Vader, but it could be a very cathartic way for Obi-1 to move forward after.

I would be into that. What if we hear, what if we like hear Quigon, we should just talk to Ben about this, Like, what if we, what if you, like, hear Quigone during the fight, but we see him at the end? Do you know what I mean? Very like. Much like Luke here. Obi-Wan. Yeah.

When he's, it rhymes. It rhymes. It rhymes. It's, checking his ear parts of how about her. She's like, wait, is Sorreligna giddis on the con? Wedge. Wedge, Wettling stuff from Luke Skywalker, who I adore and who is a real dummy in moments like that. Wedge, are you doing your Sir Aligh-Gness impression again?

Oh my God. Iconic. Okay, you're right. Let's bring on Ben. Let's bring on O.B. Ben Lembergie. I wonder if she means old Ben Lindbergh. All right, Ben.

We have been talking about what could potentially await in the finale. Our hopes, our dreams, our Force Ghost. We don't know if we are going to see Force Ghosts Plagon, but we believe that we will. And so we have decided to ask you to do a Force Ghost lore. download either so that we are ready for what awaits or so that we are satisfied with some sort of force ghost content if we don't get that in the finale. Yes, this will be an aspirational lore segment. Yeah, so instead of discussing something we've already seen, we will discuss something we

hope to see. Though whether we see Quigon or not next week, we know our guys, Obi-Wan and Anakin, get their ghost sun eventually. So it's relevant regardless. So what do we call these luminous blue beings? I grew up going to Catholic school and the priests never really picked a lane between Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit.

Same here. Forced Ghost, forced Spirit, take your pick. Spirit seems more solemn and mystical, but I'm a forced ghost guy. I don't know about you. Anyway, whatever you call it, it is a kind of consciousness that endures after death

in those who pursue some special training to retain their identity after dying and becoming one with the force. So their body disappears, in most cases at least, but their spirit, their essence, their soul is preserved indefinitely. And what self-respecting religion doesn't offer some form of eternal life? That's pretty part for the course. So this is the Jedi version. You got to give people something to get them in the tent.

So it's a little more complicated than just sticking to the Jedi code and go into confess. technically you don't have to be a fully trained Jedi, but you do have to be a pretty hardcore selfless light-sider, like a seriously straight-edge force user who doesn't dabble in the dark side. And then you also have to take the continuing education courses in forced ghostliness unless you're Anakin. Yeah, I was like, or you could be Anakin Skywalker. Medi-chlorian Jesus, so. Oh, sure, sure, sure. Shortcut, you know.

The normal rules don't apply to him. So this is not at all a commonplace power, even though you might think it was from watching the trilogies. Quigon does it, not initially, but eventually. Obi-Wan does it, Yoda does it. Anakin, Luke and Leah do it, but it's far from common knowledge. And in fairness to the Sith, got to maintain my journalistic impartiality here, present both sides.

Who's to say which one is worse? Yeah, Bedlinburg fan balance. This is a crazy energy from you. for today. I'm very tired. This is shocking. The Fox News of Loridoms, here we go. Even the darksiders have their own way of sticking around after death multiple ways that some consider it to be unnatural.

But as Yoda says in the original Clone Wars series finale, open to us a path remains that unknown to the Sith is Yoda's syntax is particularly tortured in the animated series. Through this path, victory we may yet find, not victory in the Clone Wars, but victory for all time. Sounds pretty important. It's sort of the secret weapon. So you're probably wondering, Ben, how might a Jedi cultivate this very valuable skill? I was. Well, let me quote Quigon, who lays it all out in the season six Clone Wars episode Voices after consuming a small mountain of edibles possibly. He says, I am a manifestation of the force, a force that consists of two parts.

Living beings generate the living force, which in turn powers the wellspring that is the cosmic force. All energy from the living force from all things that have ever lived feeds into the cosmic force, binding everything and communicating to us through the midi chlorines. Because of this, I can speak to you now. Yeah, that's me after a gummy or two on a Friday, for sure. Yeah. So everyone clear on that? Yeah.

Craigon is definitely California sober. Yeah. I'm not taking any questions on the specifics there. If you're confused, I don't know what you're not getting here. Take it up with Quigon. The living force feeds the cosmic force. You mix in some midaclorians and presto. Now you're immortal and your spirit can sit on a log and explain why you lied to Luke.

From a certain point of view, that. Come on. Oh, God. A lot of what we know here comes from. from a three-episode arc at the end of Clone War season six, Voices, Destiny, and Sacrifice, which were the final episodes of the series until it came back for season seven.

So in the first of those episodes, Yoda's meditating, as he does, and all of a sudden, he hears the voice of Quigon, which he finds deeply disturbing. It reminds me of the Friends episode where Rachel dresses up as Princess Leia because Ross says it's his fantasy, but then Rachel shows up in the bedroom

and Ross imagine's his mom instead. And he's like, get out of my head. What are you doing here? It's kind of like that. It's just like that. Exactly not, Ben. Yoda's like, hey, I'm meditating here. You can't be Quigon.

Quigon's dead. And then Quigon spirit starts moving the furniture around and picking up candles and picking up Yoda, which is pretty rude. And even so, Yoda and the council are worried that he's losing his mind or he's being manipulated by the Sith, which just goes to show. you how anomalous this skill is, that someone as wise as ancient as Yoda, who's been around the block a few times, he didn't think this was possible. So it turns out that while he was still alive... He also missed the rise of Palpatina the Sith. So every now and then, he misses

something. It's okay. He's not omniscient. But it turns out that while he was still alive in the traditional sense, Quigon travels to a world known as the Force planet or the wellspring of life, which is basically the birthplace of all life, and the juncture that connects the cosmic force and the living force, which we're all on the same page about because of the earlier quote. I'm with you. So when your force-sensitive toddler asks you, mommy, where do mid-aclorians come from? You say, no one really knows, honey, but we think they come from the force planet.

And there, Quigon learned from five force-present. who had held onto their consciousness after death. Now, there are some official sources that say he picked up this trick from a shaman of the wills, and this points back to the early drafts of episode four, which George Lucas originally envisioned as a story told by an immortal being called a will in the journal of the wills. And there was supposed to be a scene in episode three where Quigon would tell Yoda that the shaman of the wills had figured out this one weird trick to be immortal, and then Yoda would

later explain that it's a secret of the ancient order of the wills. Somehow that did not make the final cut. In that scene, Quigan would have said it is a state acquired through compassion, not greed, which explains why it's off-limits to Siff. So Dave Filoni, our guy, valiantly tried to make these origin stories agree with each other by saying that the five forced priestesses were originally one being that died a long time ago and appear as five separate projections. to mere mortals. So they're like a holy quintet. So maybe the forced priestesses were the will.

I'm sure that Faloni loses sleep over this, but I'm not too stressed about the inconsistency of myself. Wait, do you think Liam Nieson was just like, George is like, we need you for Sith, Revenge of Sith. He's like, I'm good, thanks. I can't believe there's a version of Sith an already great movie with that and a full-on love triangle that we were deprived of. I know.

that on so much. I cannot let you get away with. I cannot let you get away with an already great movie. A movie I already love. How about that? Sure. So Quigon didn't complete his priestess training before he got Darth Mald. So at first, he couldn't pull off the full force ghost.

He could only manage a disembodied voice, better than nothing, though. The first time he communicated post-mortem was when Anakin was... You phrased that it makes me think of Corrigan, Ragnar. and the hammer pulled you off line. Sorry, carry on. It's not what you were going for. He's got that code for him, which is nice. So the first time he communicated post-mortem

was when Anakin was busy slaughtering the Tuskins like animals. And Quigon calls out to Anakin to stop slaughtering them. But Anakin thought he was, well, hearing voices, which he was. And Yoda overheard this exchange. He was forced eavesdropping.

But at that time, he didn't understand. understand what was happening either. So later in the third season of Clone Wars, Quigon's ghost appears to Obi-Wan and also Anakin in another mystical place called Mortis that amplifies the force and improves the Force Ghost reception. So he and Obi-Wan...

It's like the tinfoil on the top of the Force antenna? Right. You knock the top of the TV, like the Fonz or something. It comes in clear all of a sudden. Yeah. Yeah. So he and Obi-Wan chat about the chosen one for a while, but then Obi-Wan later comes to believe that this was all

an illusion. So some time goes by, Anakin falls to the dark side, and Quigon's like, okay, I've got to get serious here. The audio-only approach isn't cutting it. So he dedicates himself to Force Ghost practice, partly so he can keep Obi-1 company on Tatween. So as I mentioned earlier, he reveals himself to Yoda, He guides Yoda to DeGaba, where Yoda's like, hey, can you see the future? And Quigon says, sorry, I exist in a place where there's no future or past. So Yoda says, okay, can you at least tell me who the secret Sith Lord is? That would be a huge help. And Quigon's like, can't help you out there either.

But I can take you to the Force planet. So he does that. And at the Force planet, Yoda qualifies for the Force Ghost upgrade himself. Oh, nice. Yoda 2.0. Love it. Okay. So then in Revenge of the Sith, he tells Obi-Wan that somehow Quigon has returned, not in quite those words, and that he will teach him to commune with him, though obviously he takes his sweet time doing that. From the Asoka novel, we know that Obi-Wan hears Quigon when he visits Schmeys Skywalker's grave shortly after getting to Tatween. But obviously, Obi-Wan can't pick up the signal that clearly until, who knows, next week, could it be?

Maybe. I will say this. If we don't get the Quigon encounter we want next week, which would be a travesty, everyone should track down the Claudia Gray short story, master and apprentice. In the canonical book from a certain point of view, it takes place right before a new hope. And Obi-Wan and Quigon have exactly the conversation that I think we want them to have in this series to the series to the, to the point that if they do have a heart-to-heart in the finale, it would be weird that they then repeat that exchange in the short story nine years later without one of them being like, yeah, we talked about this before.

But I will let that slide if they give us Quigon. But by then, by episode four, essentially, Quigon's got the ghost thing down. And Obi-Wan says, you're very nearly corporeal. I've never seen you appear like this. He's basically like, hey, have you been working out? And Quigon still sounding high answers, it is a matter of learning to both claim the physical world and detach oneself from it.

Easier said than done. This is my first question to you. And it's when we were like, when we decided you're going to do this segment, I was like, are forced ghost corporeal, right? Because this is always my question about ghosts. I learned that from,

yes. Are they corporeal? Because I learned that from, But like, so they can sit on, so Obi-Wan Kenobi can sit on a log, right? Quigon can, like, move candles and Yoda around. Right. But can they be as corporeal as, say, like, Lou Skyworker was when he projected himself onto crate? Yeah.

It did make footprints, but did engage in a lightsaber battle. Maybe more so. We will get to that in a second. Okay, sorry. No, please. I welcome questions. So, Obi-Wan learns the technique from Quigon pretty quickly, apparently. Anakin doesn't really learn it from anyone.

He is just talented and intuitive like that. Hashtag blessed, yes. Yeah. Star Wars.com says his selfless sacrifice allowed his spirit to be preserved in the force by his former mentors, Obi-Wan and Yoda. So I guess we can go with that. But we don't know exactly how Luke and Leia learn it. maybe Luke learns from Yoda or Obi-Wan or his sacred texts and teaches it to Leah.

But it sort of seems like the Skywalker's just get the Force Ghost VIP package. They can just kind of cut the line. It is the Skywalker saga, after all. Yeah, somehow. The Skywalker became Force Ghosts. Maybe the Middiclorians are just like, oh, Skywalker, you say. Well, I've come right this way. But not you, Ben Solo.

No. So the last two things to know are this, and this is what you were getting at. So first, the sequel trilogy took some creative licenses and liberties with force powers in general and also the established big screen limitations of Force Ghosts. So it actually did make them more powerful than we could possibly imagine. We could imagine something more powerful than Obi-1 telling Luke to turn off his targeting computer, but they really level up for the sequel trilogy. So in The Last Jedi, you have Yoda as a Force Ghost calling down lightning to strike.

a tree and start a fire. And then in the Rise of Skywalker, you also have Luke's Force Ghost grabbing Ray's lightsaber and raising his X-wing out of the water. So they can seemingly interact pretty well with the physical world. And also in Rise of Skywalker, you have a whole lot of Jedi who, as far as we know, don't have Force Ghost privileges giving Ray a pep talk during the final battle with Palpatine. Well, Quiguan just patched them into the conference. call. Sure. He's like, please hold, let me access. Could be. Everyone else. So who knows? All bets are off at this point. Maybe the Force Ghost can just fight for themselves now, or maybe Obi-1 can come back in body outside

of Mal's dreams and fantasies. We have no idea what's possible here. Oh, my God, I forgot, okay, I don't, I can't, I don't have access to it right now, but I forgot, I'm, I'll bring it for the finale. Mallory Rubin sent me a full-size cardboard cut out of Obi-1. Good after I got COVID. He'll be on the Zoom call next week. Oh, God. Does that surprise me at all? He's bigger than my Cobb Vance.

It's a proportion issue. So the last thing, I did promise to be fair and balance, give equal time to the darksider. So I will note that they can kind of stick around too. They just have to bind their spirits to some sort of object, like a holocron or a mask, or they can do some night sister stuff. You're talking like Horcrook stuff? It sounds like you're talking to work stuff here. Pretty much. The Knight Sisters have their ways to talk to or appear to or possess people.

Or you can just do the Palpatine and transfer your soul into a nice ripe clone body until you run out of them. So they have their methods. So in conclusion, I know that Anakin was the one who had the virgin birth and sacrificed himself and brought balance to the force until J.J. Abrams on But Quigon has a pretty good case as the Jedi Jesus here. He is the one who made it possible for everyone else to get on the ghost train and enjoy eternal life. So if we don't get a glimpse of him in the finale, or at least a new voiceover, I will myself wink out of existence and become a force ghost. Do you think Quagon is like the Jedi John the Baptist, maybe? I was thinking of that too. Yeah, maybe. I don't know. He dies for everyone's sins, seemingly, so they can all access eternal life too. But if I am a Force Ghost next week, fortunately, that would not prevent me from podcasting, I don't think. So one way or another, I hope to be back then.

Thank you, Ben. Remarkable stuff from you today, Ben. My pleasure, as always. Par for the course. Classic, Ben. You're the best. Get some rest. Thank you. Sleep well. I will try. Forever sleep. God, I hope not. All right, Joe. You are corporeal so you can reach your hand into the Dune Sea and pull out the Easter egg of your choosing.

We've talked about a bunch already. Do you have a favorite Easter egg or reference? One that we've mentioned already, one that we haven't. I'll just pick one we haven't mentioned already, which is that Roken, a character that I wish we knew more about, does use a bowcaster and that at least is fun. So the bowcaster for Roken. What about you? That was honestly probably my pick to because I love that. of ones we haven't mentioned.

I guess it was fun to see Corin and his mom again, you know, from the Haja escape plot of episode two. We talked in that pod about who Corin might potentially be pulling in from the wide, wide, wide larger canon. So that was fun to know that Corin's still there and could appear again in the future. You know, I'll go actually with the translated Arbash. There is no death from the Jedi Code, that wall etching. That was great to see, that little snippet of the Jedi Code.

Yeah, that's my pick. Sorry, Corrin. You got bumped. Secret Scroll. I already said mine is bail. It's the only explanation I can hold on to for his absolutely uncharacteristic and bizarre behavior. What about you? I'm going to give it to the ghost of Wade, which I'm,

hung over this episode and cast a real long shoutout. So shout out. So shout out to Wade and his enduring legacy. It was great to see Wade in the previously on, you know, and really remember our time with him. And like to see everyone reflecting on Wade and how much he meant to them. Yeah. Wade. Okay.

And with that, it's mailbag time. Jomi. I promise that I will have a better performance than Riva again. against Darth Vader and Jason Tatum against the Warriors. I promise. I promise I'll be good. Oh, God. Our first question comes from Mikal.

Shout out to the homie. Is a season two a good idea? And has that amazing flashback sequence changed your thought process? I was a hard no. Saving Leah seemed the singular good reason he could have to leave Tatooine. But if they tell smaller sand stories with added slashback content. Maybe?

I'll add that when I say I was a hard no. My head said no, but my heart screamed, yes. So I might be grasping for chances here. So there are strong rumors that they are doing a season two, mostly because the numbers are so good. Show me some face immediately. It's like, no, thank you. But I think that the problem, here's the issue.

I'm not vehemently opposed to it. I just don't think you can involve Leah or Luke or Vader, and that narrow, like, that makes it a different show. Like, I don't think you can do Vader. You can do Anakin flashbacks, but I don't think Vader and Obi-1 can continuously clash all the way up through a new hope. What do you think, Mallory?

Yeah, it's tricky because, of course, my answer is yes, I want to keep watching an Obi-1 show. But then I wish it had been envisioned that way from the jump because then it could have been, maybe some of the Vader, have been parceled out. I don't know. I mean, it's such a long swath of time that there are, you know, I like the phrasing here of telling smaller sand stories. Like that, that could be really fun. But then, yeah, it's like this whole thing that we've been talking about all season of like,

if Vader's the measuring stick for every other aspect in the story, will anything else kind of live up to that. But I think I'll, unless the finale is like such a disappointment that it really changes my feeling about the entire season. Always in play. You know, I hope not. Always in play. I will say right now I'm in camp. Yes, I'm looking forward to season two.

I'm sure that will shock everyone to hear. No, I think it's possible. It's just tricky. Tricky or even than this is, I think. Force ghost training. Take me back to the meat slicing factory and time with my beautiful Iope. Give me at long last the satire.

the Seteen flashbacks that I've been waiting for. Obie after dark, season two. Let's do it. We need to see how Obi-Wan trained so hard that he killed Maul in three moves.

Like that's what we got to get up to. That's what the people need. So I'm here. Give me season two. Sign me up for all these sand stories. I'm here. We got a similar question from Joe, you guys are in charge of making a spinoff show of any character from the Kenobi series.

Which route are you going? What's the storyline happening in the show? What format? Is it a movie? Live action? Et cetera, et cetera. Joe is going with the animated Clone War-style Vader series based on the comics, and he wants to introduce Star Killer. I mean, that would be great.

I would love to see that. Animated Vader is a consistent delight when we've gotten it so far in the television shows and the comics are awesome. So adapting those would be really fun. I'm going to pitch a spinoff about the Grand Inquisitor, and we get to see him pursuing a young force-sensitive named Ezra. No, I'm kidding. You guys remember the rebels?

I think that my answer here has to be something about Tala, because she's like the character who we don't know a ton about, who I'm really eager to spend more time with, I think. That's probably my answer, but I don't know now when that would be set, I guess. I guess it could be set like five, in the five years before this or something like that. Like her doing rebel shit. Yeah. All of her missions inside of the empire to thwart the empire.

Like basically, rebel spoiler here, like back half of rebels callous kind of stuff, you know, like after the awakening when you're actively fighting to take down your, your imperial overlords and align where you can with the budding rebellion around you. But the Tala arc would be much earlier. I was thinking of like Tala but make it alias, right? The TV show Haleas, which involves a lot of wigs and a lot of accents and a lot of infiltrating. Incredible.

And that's all I could possibly want from that. But also I do think one of the most successful aspects I think most people agree of this Obi-1 thing is the Vader stuff. So I think an animated Vader, sure, but like, give us more live action Vader. All the live action, a lot of the live action vaders have been. Maybe that will be season two of. Obi-won Kenobi, colon, Vader's turn. It's time to shine.

Darth Vader, colon, Dark Lord of the Sith. What do you think, Jomey? I mean, this is very clear. I mean, if you listen to the show, you know, I'm rocked with. I need a trilogy. I need a live action film trilogy. What has Wade been up to? Yeah, Wade.

What's Wade doing? How did Wade get there? You know? And it's like and or like it ends right as Wade hops in the plane. Like that's where. Well, it's a prequel series. How did Wade get there? I mean, what was Wade up to before then, though?

The one thing we know about Wade is he's like part of the word out soldiers. So what you're saying is there's a blank canvas to be explored. Just the first time Wade did a thing now. I don't want to besmirch Wade's legacy. Maybe it's just trash hauler Wade. Yeah. Like Wade hauling trash.

T-47 sewage removal. Yeah. Men at work. Men at work, but make it Wade. Wade at work. Every movie is 100, 150 minutes long. That's Ryan Johnson's trilogy right there. I solved it.

I solved it. Look at me. I'm a problem solver. Kathleen Kennedy hit my line. I'm here. All right. Our last question comes from Anna. I saw a TikTok with Asoka's entrance on Mandelor paired with holding out for a hero.

Which song a la Guardians of the Galaxy would have been the perfect needle drop for the Vader fight with Riva? So my first instinct was to go with a loser by Beck. Tough. But I actually think I want some ACDC. So it's either... Some Tony Stark energy here. It's either Thunderstuck or it's back and black, which is the Tony Stark special. So, yeah.

Back in black for a Vader fight. Also, I do want to say... I forgot to mention this earlier, but on one of the videos and I can't remember which, I apologize, that I watched this week, someone pointed out the fact that, like, in the original trilogy, because all the lightsaber stuff was done post... with rotoscoping that the sabres never lit up Vader's helmet. And it wasn't even fixed, quote unquote, in the specialized edition. But how cool it is in both Rogue One and in this to see the red saber sort of gleam off of Vader's helmet.

And I completely agree. So badass. As usual with our musical questions have no answer here. This is not my strength. I don't know. But I love the idea, and I'll say that. because I love the needle drops in the MCU, and I'm into the idea of bringing more to Star Wars.

Though it also feels like sacrilegious in a way because the score is such a sacred part of the Star Wars experience. So I don't want to take us away from that too often. I don't know. It's more like fan edit energy. Like there, I've seen so many good edits of the Ray and Kylo Throne Room fight. Like there have been so many good songs laid on top of that. Holding out for a hero is a huge one.

Immigrant song is one that people like to put on. a fan at it, stuff like that. I mean, we actually got holding out for a hero in Loki, you know? Yeah. That became actual text there. Well, you two are our TikTok experts. You two love TikTok, so you're the two to answer this. Jomi, what do you think?

That's a great question. Speaking of TikTok, you can follow the Ring ofverse on TikTok at Ring ofverse. Just a little plug right there. I literally said minutes owing and awing at the various colors of Jody's Lajie's lightaber earlier before we started recording. It's very cool. And this one is, and this one? It's so cool.

That's fun. I mean, for me, it's really simple. Like, she got packed up. We even got packed up the way. I don't think we've ever seen in Star Wars Live Action before. So I need Tupacacutem up. You understand what I'm saying? I need Nas.

I need Nas, I need Nas ether. And I need, I need the beats. I need Drake back to back. You understand what I'm saying? I just need something that lets you know, like, oh, this is right here. This is beef, but it's really one-sided. Like, you losing right now.

That's what I need. That's, I would love to see that. I don't know, you know, if Star Wars got a bag that deep, You know, they're hitting like, A, Nas, can we get, can we get your sound? But I would love that. Fans, make that happen. It's beautiful. I love it.

I love it. That's content right there. That's special. Do we do it? That's it. That's it. That's a pod. Your rage was useful.

Now it's tiresome. He delivered that line really well. Let's just give. Rupert friend his dude. His dude. It was good to see Ruperback. It would have been sad if he hadn't returned, despite everything we said earlier about the

inexplicable nature of it. Yeah, yeah. Thank you to our Jedi Masters, Steve Allman, for senior producer in this episode. Arjuna Ram Gapal for his additional production work on this episode and Jomi Adoneron for his work on the social for this episode.

And of course, to force ghost Limburg for just a shocking point. performance today. What a treat that was? Running on fumes, Ben, is maybe my favorite. Legendary showing. Please tune back in next week for our Obi-1 Canobe finale, instant reaction and deep dive pods, Wednesday and Friday, as well as our coverage of light year, mint edition, Sunday, The Boys, House of Midnight, Monday, Miss Marvel, Joe and Coe on Miss Marvel on Thursday, and more. Till then. Remember, pod will fade, but is never forgotten.

What's the difference between butter and butter made from real California dairy? It's the real California farm families behind it. Real people, real care, real intention. Why? Because real matters. So whether you're pouring milk, melting of cheese, or just grabbing one more spoonful of yogurt, Keep it real. Look for the seal. Real California milk by Real California Farm Families.