The Ringer-Verse - 'Peacemaker' Midseason Mailbag | The House of Midnight

Episode Date: January 31, 2022

Mallory Rubin and Van Lathan join to discuss the midway point of the hit HBO Max show 'Peacemaker' and answer your burning questions as we approach the final episodes (07:11). They also break down how the show presents Peacemaker as a complex hero figure, share their favorite insults, and more! Hosts: Mallory Rubin & Van Lathan Producer: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, I'm Juliet Littman. And I am Joe House. Welcome to Ringer Food, the ringer's new hub for all your food-related content. You may have known this feed as House of Carbs, and don't worry, that's not totally going away. We will be launching two new shows on the feed, and the first is Food News with me and David Chacobi. You may remember us from our days at Grantland while Jacoby and I are back to go over the

news, sample snacks, share some personal tales of food news, some global tales of food news, Who knows what else is to come? And House, what are you going to be doing? Oh, my taste buds, my hungry homies, my culinary comrades, we are back. We've done it here to tell you that we are reigniting House of Carms with a whole new slate of tasty episodes throughout the year. We are starting with a football fracas, a gridiron gobble fest. We're doing NFL playoff potluck featuring taste tests of the iconic food item or items of every playoff city to determine which city reigns supreme. Ringer Food is starting up this Wednesday, January 12th.

That's so soon. So be sure to subscribe on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease

and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions increase. reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfairadio.com. This episode is brought to by Paramount Plus. Beth and Ripper back in a new series, Dutton Ranch. Kelly Riley and Cole Houser returned, and this time they're taking on Texas.

As Beth and Rip build a future together, peace will have to wait as they face corruption, danger, and a ruthless rival ranch, willing to protect its secrets at all costs. Legacy is a beautiful thing, but only if it survives. Dutton Ranch starring Colhouser, Kelly Riley, Annette Benning, and Ed Harris now streaming on Paramount Plus. You want to know why I don't have a codyearas supervillains. Why?

My corduera supervillains is six feet fucking under. There you see, Batman doesn't kill people. Because he's a pussy! He's a dark creature of the night! He's a jackass! Who wrestles with murderers dressed like clowns and throws them in prison! So they can break out of prison and then murder more people. Real me this, how many people you think that man's indirectly murdered by being too much of a candy ass

not to kill these fools who clearly need to be smoked once and for all, you wrinkly, sharp-eigh-looking dimension-infested? Fuck! Jesus! And welcome into the Ringerverse, here on the Ringer Podcast, Network. I'm Mallory Rubim. It is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only to Evergreen, but also to join us on the ringer's Nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. Joining me today to talk about Peacemaker. Now that he's reminded me that you can't house train an

eagle without stealing its soul. It is my fellow ringerverse host and my househouse of Midnight co-host today, Van Laithyn. Poo-Pew! What's up, man? How are you doing? What's up, ma'am? Let's get the programming reminders out there before we dive in, before we guzzle some of that raw amber liquid that we're going to consume today. We are already somehow at the penultimate episode of the Book of Boba Fett this week. So we got some pods coming, right? We got some breakdowns coming. You and Charles, the Midnight Boys, Poo-Pew! We'll have an instant.

Reaction podcast, as always, on Wednesday on Chapter 6. And then Joanna and I will be back on Friday with a Chapter 6 deep dive. We will, of course, have our finale pods on Boba the week after. Follow all of that by following the pod and by following our social feeds. Ringer versus Everywhere, right? We're even on Reddit now. Yeah. And as always, bear in mind our friendly neighborhood spoiler warning. I don't know. It's House of Midnight. Do we get the spoiler warning? Tape played here. We should because here's the thing.

It's a reaction podcast to multiple episodes. But if we don't remind people that we're going to talk about the episode, they'll still be upset. So I think we should do it, man. Let's do it. Let's do it. Steve, cue it up. We're getting ready to talk about

peacemaker. You're listening to a reaction podcast. The spoilers are coming. Again, it's a House of Midnight team up today because it is a peacemaker mid-season check-in. Now, let's just get this caveat out of the way right up top. If you're sitting at home listening and you're saying technically we're beyond the mid-season point

because this is an eight-episode television show and five episodes of aired, you're correct. However, here's how we're rationalizing this. Peacemaker airs over six weeks, right? And we're midway through in that respect. Bannon Charles did a wonderful breakdown of the initial three episodes that dropped at once. We have had two more peacemaker episodes since four and five. So we're going to be diving into those a little bit more today, but also talking about the entire run to date, all of it, right?

We're going to be chatting about what's happened so far. We're going to be speculating over some theories for what might come in the final three episodes. We are, of course, this goes without saying, but just to say it for the first time, but not the last time today. We're going to going to be gushing over our number one shared passion. Egli. Egli. A lot of Eagley talk coming. What a good boy.

The best. Yeah. And we're going to do all of that by answering 10 burning questions at the peacemaker midseason-ish point. I feel like probably shouldn't say burning questions because it's peacemaker and peacemaker himself if we said burning questions would like ask if the ringerverse had an STD. Yeah. You guys got VD or something?

Oh, burning. Doesn't Superman have it? Burn it questions. Her flash has that and then hardcore would jump in. By the way, when we say midseason, we mean like NBA midseason, where it's really past midseason, you know, but we have to have the All-Star game there because, you know, we need the sponsors and all of that stuff. Everybody's got to have a good time and whatever city it's in.

What city is the All-Star game in this year? What is it? Cleveland, right? Oh. Tropical locale. to Cleveland, man. Shout out to Cleveland. I'm not, come on, man. Cleveland's a great place to have a weekend of fun. So shout out to Cleveland. Yeah, shout out to Cleveland, man. Cleveland needs the shout out because Cincinnati's in the Super Bowl. So tough times for Cleveland right now.

That can't feel good. Though the Burrow enthusiasts here at the ring reverse are overjoyed, certainly. I'm all thrown through the roof. Shout out to Joey Burrow. The Tigers are back, but just different tigers, you know what I'm saying? This entire pod could turn into a apod at any point. Everyone has been warned at any point. So for those 10 questions, it's a mix. We put out the mailbag prompt. Jomi went to you all, asked for your submissions, and you sent them. So we've got a handful of mailbag questions from you. And then Arjuna and Steve, our wonderful producers, they've got a handful for us as well. It's a mix. It's a blend. But we're going to start before we dive into the questions, which just quickly, like some big picture thoughts. Van,

you're on the record through three episodes. Now we're through five. How are you enjoying Peacemaker overall? It's giving me that old feeling. Yeah, it's amazing. So it's interesting. So there are a couple of narrative things that are being done in the Peacemaker show that we're going to talk about as we go further or not further in this episode. But from a grand scale, it's interesting what's happening with the Peacemaker show.

And I hate to compare DC properties to Marvel properties, but I found this. interesting. Okay. So one of the hidden little advantages that Marvel obviously had in the MCU is that we had never seen those characters on screen before, right? Like, not in this way, the Iron Man and Thor, you know, there was that Captain America movie from back in the day, which I liked, but, you know, it's kind of stupid, to be honest. And we hadn't really seen these characters on screen before. So what you could do with them was whatever take you want it. If you wanted a Tony Stark coming out, cracking jokes, being all, whatever, if you wanted a serious store by Kenneth Brana that evolves into a comedic Thor by Tycho.

Shakespeare in space. Yeah, you can do whatever, you can do whatever you wanted to do. Marvel now is having the opposite issue, right? The Marvel issue now is that the characters that they're coming into are going to be much more familiar to us as they figure out how to bring in the Fantastic Four, which it's a... iterations that we've already seen, how to bring in the X-Men iterations that we've already seen. Not so much with Moon Night. Yeah.

And some of these other characters, not so much with them, okay? But with some of these other guys, we're trying to see how they're going to go bigger, better, and bring in Galactus and Dr. Doom or whomever it's going to be. Peacemaker remind you of the joy that you can have with a character that, like, nobody really cares about that had existed with enough source material for you to spend off all kinds of narratives and story arcs, right? Peacemaker's been around for a long time. So there's enough there that you can use a comic book basis to make great amazing peacemaker stories. But there's not so much there that people cared about to where people are going to be like, oh my God,

you fucked up peacemaker. And they can make that dude, that hero like a person, which is essentially what they did with Tony Stark, right? You can't. for Ironman and you were so delighted to me, Tony Stark. Now, obviously, they're doing it into two completely different ways, but I'm having fun watching Peacemaker and Chris. Fucked up! You know what I mean? I thought it was a fucking Apple Dumbling game.

Just Chris. And Chris obviously has so many relatable issues. But they always triumphing. It's a very human character. Fuck you, John. I think that's a James Gunn, having come from Marvel,

smart enough, I think, to know that there's just a lot of meat when you can do that. Maybe not enough people jumped on to Peacemaker initially, but when you're in the world, it's great. I totally agree. It is, it's a blast. I'm having so much fun watching it every week. I've really loved it. I think that the point you're making is a great one when thinking about DC and Marvel, but I think

when thinking about, like, TV shows in particular around these. characters because it's not like impossible to do the same thing inside of a movie. I think James Gunn and his cinematic creations are really just as far as we need to look to prove that point, right? Like a lot of what you're describing, you could also make the case just in a smaller scale as present in the Suicide Squad, which is of course what led to the Peacemaker show. And I think that's like one of the interesting things too, because that's so core. You know, we actually chatted about this with Charles on the Suicide Squad pod that we did in the wake of that movie. vibe-wise, like the energy, the aesthetic palette, the tone, the kind of like raunchiness, the heavy, heavy violence, Suicide Squad peacemaker are obviously not the same as guardians. But the core kind of DNA that you're latching onto and identifying that really, I think, like, pulls us in and has this magnetic quality is the same. And it's obviously one of the things that James Gunn is drawn to when he sets out to adapt to these stories.

characters who maybe like hardcore fans have attachment to or awareness of, but the masses probably don't. And even if they have awareness, they're not going to have that same level of expectation. And then put a bunch of misfits together, flawed characters and allow them not only to build a new, totally new bond with us as an audience, but crucially, and these reinforce each other with the other characters who also fit that description, right? Other characters around them on screen who, who are missing something and longing for something and kind of have to find the way to say that out loud, right, to admit that to themselves and each other. And that, as much as like whatever fantastical thing is unfolding is what is pulling us in. So there's this like ribled humor.

It's a very clever, very funny show. You, of course, have the signature. James Gunn needle drops throughout, right? Like the soundtrack is going to become a character. I mean, the opening credit sequence and the dance, which is iconic. We have a dance-centric discussion point coming later today, so we'll save that for a bit. You have the action. You have a really specific sense of place and community, and that, like, found family aspect.

Even though the Guardians of the Galaxy and the 11th Street kids are not the same, those themes at the heart of the stories, I think there are a lot of parallels. And it's really been kind of, like, surprisingly moving and also incredibly. entertaining and funny. I've had a blast. I'm really excited for the final three episodes. I'm sad that we only have three left, but Gunn has been talking about, I haven't watched ahead in the screeners. We should say, screeners went out. I haven't either. Screeners went out first. But I didn't, I haven't either. I haven't seen it. Like, I did watch it because I got worried that maybe some of the effects weren't finished. And I was like, I'll wait. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So some critics have seen the sixth and seventh. We have not. We've only seen what the audience

listening to this has seen. Nobody has seen the finale. They're not sending out the finale. I'm excited about that. That means there's something massive in there. So we have a fun few weeks ahead and we should say right now, we will be back to talk about the finale in the end of the season for sure. Okay. Should we dive into the questions? Let's do it. Jomi, want to kick it off for us? We've got a double mailbag entry at the top here. We got a double barrel question right from the jump. So let's get right into it. This question comes from at Brandon Rust 88. Can butterfly possess people be successfully de-butterfired and return to normal? Or is it like a zombie situation where there may or may not be a cure,

but the inherent risk and danger seems to justify the immediate killing of people who aren't in control of their actions? And the second question from Tepper Tantrum, great name, by the way. Are the butterflies actually dangerous? I feel like they only attacked or react if provoked. if not, why two's earth of all places for refuge? Original theory from Straw Hat Goofy, but would love y'all's thoughts. Thanks.

So the first question was butterflies and whether or not they can be saved. I think this is going to be the crux of the last, of the back half of the show. Because we now know that Merritt is a butterfly. And so knowing that he's a butterfly, it calls into question, all of his motivations, everything that he's trying to do, why he's trying to do it, and what the actual bigger deal is. And remember, Amanda Waller's behind all of this.

So we don't know what's up her sleeve. The butterflies might be Superman's cousins that she's trying to hold hostage to get back. And we never know. We have no clue what's going on when she's involved. It's murky to say the least. If you want my gut is, yeah, you can D-Butterfly somebody. or if you can't de-butterfly them,

they can at least, they at least don't have to be killed, that there can be some sort of symbiosis between the butterfly and its host. What do you think, Ma? I'm just excited after seeing, after seeing the John Economos PowerPoint that outlined perhaps not accurately

how butterflies enter. Yeah. The human body cavity. You know, I'm excited for now the follow-up. PowerPoint, how they might exit. You know, let's get a little brain-to-ass laxative going here to get the butterflies out. Oh, yeah. I think you're right.

The Mern reveal, obviously it was a reveal to us at the end of episode four. And then it was a reveal inside of the story with adibio putting on the X-ray vision helmet and realizing at the end of episode five. So that's where we left off. We left off on that cliffhanger. Presumably right at the start of episode six, there will be a little bit of, be this conversation among the characters. Like, okay, wait, it's Mern. We have to, like, have a conversation and figure out what we could do here. So one of the things that we don't know

that we'll learn, presumably, is when he became a butterfly? Because, like, it's not, unless I'm missing something, it's not clear definitively when that, when that happened. That's something that we still have to learn. So maybe in the process of, like, that download, there will be some discussion or some insight about how to de-butterfly people without killing them. I like the question in terms of the kind of like moral conundrum it poses. Like even the

zombie point and the question is interesting because I remember even there are million zombie stories where you could think about this of course. But remember in like the Marvel zombie episode during what if, which we loved, obviously. We were like, wait, stop killing all of our favorite characters.

Let's try to solve this and figure it out. It may be saved some of them, right? So this is always a conundrum. It's going to be interesting to see the characters grapple with that now that's somebody who they actually know and have a relationship with is a butterfly. I'm also assuming that like we got some questions. Could Harcourt be a butterfly because of that? Actually, I think that's one of our questions later.

So hold that thought. But here are a few, and this is just a few, not a comprehensive list, like clues or things that we can assess and latch on to in terms of the second question about whether the butterflies are actually dangerous, right? Because I think will they be, will they learn how to take them out of people? Seems like a given. It's just a question of how. Okay. Clue number one, there was that exchange when they were on their way to Senator Goffs, where we learned he is, quote, mostly known for being a radical proponent of climate change. So this led to the very amusing peacemaker. Okay, so we're going to kill it because climate change is a hoax. And then like, oh yeah,

Of course, Facebook is lying to me, like Chris looking like a complete asshole, right? If the butterflies and their hosts are fighting to, like, preserve or save the planet in some way, then that could be evidence that they're actually fighting for good in some capacity, right? There's also that fascinating judo master line in the parking lot fight. Where he says you don't really know what's going on. Exactly. He says you have no idea. Butterflies, they are not what you think. They are. And just as he's about to reveals a crucial out of bio shoots him. Then there's that moment. This might be nothing because this might just be classic like Waller, Argus, government bureaucracy stuff inside of a superhero story. But maybe there's, maybe there's something here. Harcourt says anytime anyone officially starts to deal with the butterfly situation, someone higher up in the government shuts them down. So maybe that just means they've infiltrated. high-ranking government officials, and that's why it gets shut down, but maybe there's some sort of, like, alliance of foot. You know, as an animal lover, one of the things that I'm latching

on to is that the butterflies freed Charlie, poor Charlie. Hated to see what happened to Charlie with the chainsaw. That was terrible. But they freed him from the zoo where he was presumably unhappy, right? taught him to speak. And then in the preview at the end of episode five, for chapter six for the next episode, there's that little, the butterfly that peacemaker has been keeping in the jar, the goth butterfly. He's like drawing the peace symbol, right? Yeah. So he's trying to communicate.

They do seem chill until they're provoked. They only attack when they're under threat. Now, that doesn't mean that they're not trying to infiltrate to gain control or power. And also taking over people's brains and bodies without their permission is not nice, kind of regardless of what your agenda ultimately is. Right. We frown against that. That's bad.

That's not good, no matter what. Right. If they're not truly bad, or if they could be removed, if there's some nuance at play here, then just blowing people's heads off with reckless abandon is also not good. So could they be outright good? Could they have been brought here by somebody to help? Like, brought in as some sort of secret force or secret army to be deployed?

Is there a chance that they could have been created by somebody for ill, but then are rebelling against that purpose of their creator to try to find, forge their own path forward. Like not exactly a one-to-one, but I always think of Rockets Line and Guardians, like, that I didn't ask to get made idea and how sad that is. Like, what if there's something like that going on here and the butterflies don't want to be used for this purpose? And that gets to, like, what if there are factions within the butterflies? Like, what if they're not all working toward the same thing? And some of them are good and some of them are bad. I don't know. I mean, sure. And then I think there's a, like, a bigger question that exists

just using the butterflies. Like the zombie thing is interesting to me because it really the zombie thing is about redemption. Here's the thing about zombies. You really got like six hours when you're bitten to really get it back.

You know, and those are where you have to make some decisions, you know, am I going to cut my leg off? Yeah. I'm going to cut my arm off. And is that going to work? Because only in certain zombie universes does that even work? You know, but what always happens is people start getting the fever. Oh my God, he's so cold.

Oh, what happens now? Just let you know, I know that you've been rolling with this person for a long time, and they're really like your fiancé or something like that. But, like, it's going to get real dicey here in about 30 minutes, so you have a decision to make. Butterflies are different, though. The butterflies, they seem to be, zombie is dead, undead. Butterfly are two different things that are coming together that are both alive.

So you might come to a situation to where you view humanity through whether or not, look, if the butterflies are noble and people are bad, what happens when a good butterfly gets in a bad person? How do their natures interact? How do their natures interact? Like what does the sort of the meaning of the butterfly species and humanity, what does that mean? Is that something, you know what I mean? like what kind of person, like what is burned right now? Like what happens? Because he keeps talking about how he's changed, right?

That amazing exchange with John about like the feelings. But also like there's that later conversation with Captain Locke about like how he's a different person than he was when they were last together. So like is that his actual evolution and growth as a human being? Is that informed by the butterfly inside of him? And also one of the things we learn in the PowerPoint, right, is the way that the butterfly like the chemistry of the butterfly, the line is like the butterfly's unique genetic structure and chemistry interact with the host bodies,

giving them strength far beyond that of a human being. So there's some like exponential kind of effect. To your point, does that then exacerbate exponentially whatever your core nature is? Or does it like override it in some way? That's a really fascinating. That's a fascinating one. Do you remember the conversation that he had with,

that Mern had with Peacemaker about Matter Eaterland? Yes. Two things struck me about that. Wendy's. Yeah. Two things struck me about that. Yeah. One, you would think that Mern would know who met her eater lad was.

Two, Peacemaker actually asked him, why are you so concerned about him? Like, who cares about him? I wonder if that was Mern's curiosity or the butterfly's curiosity that the butterfly who might, oh, this guy's can eat anything? Like, who is this guy? I wonder, I wonder what effect they have, like, on your personality. And I went back and watched, because I was thinking about that, and tried to see if there had been a change in Mern's personality overall.

Couldn't really pinpoint that. Can't really say that. But still, it's just, that whole thing is going to be interesting as well. Yeah, because, like, even the butterflies at the Glen Thai facility or Annie, piecemeal. The first took up in the premiere, like they seem to kind of be going about business as usual until there's an inciting incident that sparked some sort of change. I'm curious, like, whether people or creatures, right, Charlie, we know that they can, you know, vigilante is very interested to know if a butterfly could take over a chihuahua. Is the host

body totally conscious and aware at all times of what is happening? Like, that might seem like a silly question because you'd think, okay, well, if like a giant purple tongue protrudes from your mouth and you're suddenly only interested in consuming raw amber liquid, you'd be aware of what was happening. But I do wonder if there's like a passive and active state. Because like with the senator's family, there was that change that they, that hardcore and peacemaker observed, right? Like they're not, people aren't around them anymore and their disposition is totally changed. Is that because the hosts have decided to behave differently? Or is that because the butterflies have taken over in a setting that's safe for them.

Like with Mern too, is he staying behind and not going on the mission because he's actively like, I can't be around these people, but also he's leading them into the factory that's producing the food that he needs to survive. So that's one of the bits of evidence, I think, that there could be like factions within the butterfly army, and maybe they're not all fighting toward the same thing, or maybe there's some desire to like thwart whatever force is trying to put them to use for some sort of ill. I will say my guess at this point is we will learn the butterflies are not evil.

I think there's probably going to be some subtlety and nuance within that. But I'm going to say, not evil. Do you want to make a formal prediction? I think we'll learn that some of them are and some of them are to Europe. Yeah, I like the idea of actions. That would kind of fit one of the themes of the show, right? right? It's not really like an either-or. Yeah. Right. Okay. All right. Our next question, it's a related one. It's a deeply upsetting one. It comes from Stephen Arjuna, and I want to say

I'm offended and appalled. But I'm going to throw it out there because they want us to answer it, man. Here it is. How devastated would you be? I can't even bring myself to say this out loud. No, no. If Eagley was taken over by a butterfly. No, can't happen. Can't happen to eagerly. I'll tell you what. I want people to understand. Like, I've sat through a lot of things, man.

I've gone through a lot with all of this stuff. Remember we are Groot? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I remember sitting in the theater going, why am I doing this? You know, it's like a cute tree, a cute, gentle, except when he's provoked,

tree that's protecting everyone. It's like, we are Groot. I'm like, Jesus Christ. So Groot had die. At least that Groot had to die so that everybody could be on the same page. I've gone through this a lot. I've gone through this with all of these different, like, I can't, I can't go through this with Eagley. I just can't. I can't have Eagley taken over as a butterfly. If we learn that the butterflies are good, maybe Eagley gets taken over and it gives Eagley super eagerly powers or something. Maybe that works. And then Eagley can do. super-Eagely stuff, which Eagles already pretty much have superpowers if we're being honest. But beyond that, if something, if anything befalls my beloved Eagley, I'll freak out.

Same. I won't be able to handle it. I genuinely really hope that nothing bad happens to Eagley. That would be terrible. I need him to be safe. I need him to thrive. He's the best. The bond between Eagley and Chris genuinely one of the best things in the show. Like, it is so wonderful to behold, the hug, the snacks that Eagley brings him when he senses that Chris is depressed and needs some sort of gesture of affection, that little driver's seat moment

where he's like, Daddy's good boy. It's just so cute. I love it. I'm with you. I don't want anything bad to happen to Eagley. It would be terrible. It would be horrific.

I think to the point you just made, there is a possible, there is a possible path forward that seems actually like maybe probable there because if we think of the jar that Chris has in his home with the goff butterfly, like Eagley has been very interested in that, right?

He's knocked the jar over. He's nudging it with his beak. He's expressing a lot of intrigue. Could that butterfly? And we saw, we saw Charlie talk, right? Could that butterfly go into Eagley, painful to even say it, and then allow Eagley to speak,

speak to peacemaker in order to convey some truth about what is actually unfolding. Now, I guess the counterpoint to that is like, we don't need that to happen because the butterfly inside of Mern is perfectly capable of providing that same plot mechanic, right? Here's what's actually happening here. But I wonder if that could happen. I hope not. I don't want equally to have anything inside of him other than love and joy. But if, I mean, if we find out that you can get the butterflies out, that's good.

it would be unpleasant for Eagely because it seems like there's only one way for the butterfly to get into Eagley, if we're being honest with you. It seems like Economos kind of laid that out. It doesn't seem like there's very many other ways for the butterfly to get into Eagley. And I just don't want my guy.

I love Eagley. I'm going to be honest with you, ma'. Eagley has sent me on a whole bald eagles thing. Really? How has that manifested? So look, I'm from Louisiana. We have many different types of wildlife. So I'm from a place.

that's so wild, we don't think we need your animals. We got our animals. You know, it's like nobody out here in California cares about the mountain lion. They don't care about him. They're like the mountain, California, they're mountain lion. Think about that. How awesome is that? If you go to Griffith Park and you go on the wrong day, ma'am, you might fuck around and see a mountain lion. That's great. But nobody's proud of the mountain lion. Where I'm from, we're proud of our animals. We're proud of the alligator. We're proud of the beautiful white-tailed deer. We're proud of the bobcat.

We're proud of the little Louisiana black bear. We're proud of all of the animals. The Nutriot, he lives down there. We're proud of our animals. But it makes us kind of be like, you know, we don't need to see other animals because we've got so many animals down on the bay. We're proud of the crawfish. We're proud of all of the catfish.

Proud of all of these animals. I realize in my 41 years of life, I've never seen the Bald Eagle. and I'm looking at Eagely and I'm asking questions on Twitter tell me the times that you've seen a bald eagle for real. Was it a bunch of people who went to Auburn? Well, hold on. I don't count him because he's in captivity.

I know. It's upsetting. I did. I have seen him, of course. Plus, I block all Auburn stuff out of my brain. Of course. But I have seen him before because you go to Brian Denny. He's like he's there at the games.

Oh, not Brian. Danny, that's Alabama. Anyway, but my point is this, all of these amazing stories of people seeing bald eagles in the wild. It's amazing. And now I desperately want to see one. Have you ever seen a bald eagle in the wild, Mallory? I don't believe so. No. Jemmy? Absolutely not. I don't be going outside like that. I saw a hawk once. Yeah, you see a hawk every now. scary. Yeah. Did you have a favorite,

a favorite bald eagle in pop culture before Eagley? It's a good question. Didn't a fucking guy didn't a loan store? Do you guys,

do you guys remember the guy who had all of the different powers of all of the different animals? Do you remember this? Do you like Sheriff Lone Star? Do you remember him? Am I too old? Are we going to have to play the van his old job?

Because I'm not the only. I don't do. So, but what I'm saying is there was this, there was this, uh, Sheriff Brave Star, I think it was. There was this cartoon where this guy could go, speed of the wolf. No, excuse me, speed of the cheetah, eyes of the wolf, strength of the bear. He did all of these different things. I think he had an eagle with him.

I think he had an eagle. So that would have to be my favorite eagle. I'm not sure. Oh, here, this Sheriff Brave Star right here. No, he did not have an eagle. It looks like he has a horse that could talk. so I'm way off. I don't know,

but the sheriff breaks the heart for it. Excellent. Happen to me all the time. I mix up horses and eagles all the time. Incredible. No fault on you, man. Oh my God.

I love it. But no, so I didn't really have an eagle before it is. What about you, man? I think when I was a really young kid, I used to like the golden eagle from rescuers down under.

I used to watch that movie when I was a kid all the time. And then, of course, you know, not a bald eagle. but the Eagles from Lord of the Rings films. I mean, you know, play a crucial role. Very key to the story.

Love those Eagles. Those are probably some of my favorite Eagles from pop culture. Jomey, do you have a favorite eagle? Donovan McNabb? Wow, I see what you did there. Good stuff, man. Yeah.

Good stuff. For my child, if we're naming Eagles from my childhood, that was my guy. With me, it would be Westbrook, but whatever. All right. That's fair. That's fair. This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh,

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Discover the craftsmanship behind every bite, Boershead committed to craft since 1905. He's maker. You're that racist superhero. You only kill minorities, man. I killed a fair amount of white people, too. The racial is suspect, is all I have to say. If somebody's committing a crime,

and I supposed to control what their ethnicity is? No, but you need to watch white people as closely as you watch people of color, so you see more of them committing crimes. Fine, that's a good point. I will trust white people less in the future and kill a higher percentage of them. Are you satisfied? Yes. What do we got next?

Another mailbag one. Yeah, we got a listener submitted question from at Up the Pugs. Who is your favorite character and why is it vigilante? So this was eagerly for me before, right? Vigilante is amazing. So good. like vigilante is great who like

I visualani is in this same way he's James is doing something really special guys like he's deadly he's vulnerable remember we meet vigilante and vigilante is his character at first is defined by the fact that he'll kill kids

that's the first I mean at first we learned the first thing we learned about vigilante not the first thing but vigilante is talking back and forth to peacemakingly and then, you know, Peacemaker can't kill children, right? He can't kill children even though they're butterflies. Vigilandi goes, move over, and he kills them all. So you're thinking maybe this guy is in some way he doesn't have,

maybe Chris has some sort of a moral compass that this guy doesn't have. There are places that this guy's willing to go that Chris isn't. So it seems that he's like fucked up in a way. And the more you learn about him, there's this weird, pure nobility that I'm not sure exists in another character I can think of right off the bat. He's so binary, and he's so sure of himself

that he makes these gigantic mistakes, like going inside of the prison to accosteasemaker's dad, he was sure that was the right thing to do until it was the wrong thing to do. And there's just so much fun you can have with a character like that. The fact that he admits that he doesn't feel emotion, like other people.

He's completely okay. He's willing to take all of this punishment. He's like he's childlike in a way. You can tell that he says that he hit puberty late. Thimble. Tough nickname. Tough nickname. But it doesn't bother him.

Think of things that if you're going to think of something that would bother a guy, that's like top. High on the list. High on the list. It doesn't bother him, right? But that scene was important because it demonstrated that, you know, his development was very literally arrested. Right.

And he's kind of like a little boy with superhero skills and powers. You know what I mean? And abilities. So I find him to be a fascinating character. And of course, as a brother, when he went inside and, you know what I'm saying? Jomi knows when he went inside and he was talking to those white supremacists on our behalf, he knows what happened right there. He's invited. Whatever we do, Vigilante, ride with us. You know what I'm saying?

He is an absolutely amazing character, and it's an incredible performance from Freddie Stroma. It is just such a fascinating and interesting choice. I think one of the things that's fun about it is it's so, so radically different from any version of Vigilante that we've seen, whether it's like in the comics or in the Arrowverse with the CW shows. like this is a very specific peacemaker James Gunn universe version of the character that kind of feels like it could like only exist in this context. Obviously, I think the way that we, you know, we both feel about Eagley, it's the same way that that Peacemaker talks about him when he's like, he's actually literally my best friend.

It's like, of course he's our favorite character. But yeah, after that, I mean, Vigilante has definitely been one of the breakout stars of the entire experience. I also love Audubio and Mern. I think, like, that's probably the top three, Vigilante Audubio and Mern. They're just all tremendous and so interesting and engaging.

And I'm really with the Waller-O-Bio connection, like the fact that we know Waller is her mom, but other characters don't. And watching her grapple, this actually gets us into our next question so we can kind of just go right into it. The next question from our producers is, what's in the diary that Ida bio planted. Can we just talk about how like heart wrenching this

moment was for a minute? There is this like really genuine bond that has developed between Leota and Chris. Like I think their relationship and their dynamic has been one of the most interesting in the entire show. And, you know, he invites her in for a drink after the mission, right? Like they're covered in blood sitting on the cat. They've abandoned the yak, the yak butter. No yak butter in Evergreen had to sub in regular butter, the butter cocktail for beers. And, you know, Chris says, like, I've just never had this before. You know, you giving me advice, having my back. And he's saying those specific things, giving me advice, having my back. But the thing that he really means is he's never, like, never had a friend, right? And it is, like, so heartbreaking. And you know that she actually does feel that real sincere connection to. the way she says like the 11th Street kids and the bond that we've seen develop among all of those characters

in that group. But she has to follow through on this mandate from above. Like not only from her boss, but literally from her mother, right? And she pulls out that diary. Great little like Easter egg with the Wayne sticker on the diary.

Oh my God. And we had learned earlier in the season that this is a forgery, right? So to the question, like, in the diary. Obviously, we don't know. I think that we can safely say nothing good if Waller is behind it, right, of a piece with what we were saying earlier. One of my questions is, does Leota know what's in it specifically? Or does she just know that she has to plant it? My guess is that since it's like that

youthful cover, you know, we see like the label maker, piecemaker's diary and the illustrator, the illustrations and the images. It's clearly something from his youth, right? And so my guess would be that it contains the truth about what happened to his brother, right? The fact that it's a forgery, like, maybe the way we're meant to interpret that is that it's an actual recreation of something that he wrote, something that he admitted or revealed in there when he was a kid, and it's putting it back in front of him in this forged state is meant to just trigger a response. Maybe it's a way to, like, smuggle something that he didn't, right?

like new information, new material in front of him inside of something that he would recognize and think was his own, right? And it's an effort to manipulate him in that respect. Either way, I would guess that Waller's hope is to destabilize him or, like, motivate him to kill his father, which would obviously be an outcome that we, the audience, would be rooting for the latter. The former in terms of destabilizing him would obviously be more complex. I think that to the point about his brother, like the ending of episode four, the montage where we were cutting back and forth between all of the different characters who were going through some sort of, like, hardship or state of despair, and we're seeing peacemaker flashback to, like, killing a person

as a young child on his father's orders, and then, you know, hanging out and having fun with his brother, and then we see his brother's death. Like, we see him fall, bloodied, we see him seizing, but we don't see, specifically, don't see what sends him down into that pit. And, like, we have to assume because of that heart court line from elsewhere in the season, like, it says that he trained you to kill from when you were very young and it says that your brother died under mysterious circumstances and that you were involved in that? We have to assume that Chris did something presumably on his father's orders, even though his father said he loved his brother. So I don't know how that'll all exactly reconcile itself, but something about his brother will be in there and it will be meant to trigger him

into some sort of unsavory action, right? Yeah, it could be that the father made the brothers engage in some sort of white dragon, ritualistic combat type of deal. And then, you know, peacemaker ends up becoming the stronger one, which White Dragon wasn't anticipating and then he does, it goes too far. I do want to shout out before we move on from characters, hardcore, because hardcore gives you some of my funniest stuff.

I like it when I always like when there's a straight man in a room full of complete absurdity. So when Peacemaker says, I heard that Superman likes to epe shade with the old whatever mate, and she goes, where do you get this nonsense?

I laugh. so hard. She's sitting in, she's just like, where do you get this nonsense? You know what I mean? But back to this, I think she's great. All of the characters are great. I mean, John is great too.

John is amazing. The key alchemy to the show is that everybody in the 11th Street kids is like genuinely compelling to us this many episodes in, all of them. So I think it's interesting that out of bio keeps talking about the fact that she can see the good and peacemaker right she can see the good and peacemaker the reason why she can see the good peacemaker is because she can still see the good in herself right she still understands what it likes to be good what it means to be good uh even through the facade of bad assery that you put up i think that we're moving towards a situation where she's going to be able to see the good in him and he is going to tip her off to the bad in her that she might not realize, right? She's Waller's daughter, and right now she's a sponge.

She's spent her whole life being decent. Like, this is his hero origin story in a way, and it could be her villain origin story. Because if you realize, she has killed somebody for the first time in a spot where, well, he's not dead, but she shots about it for the first time in a spot where she really didn't have to do it. She did not have to shoot like judo master in that scene. She's doing it because hardcore said

you cannot hesitate. So she's learned that. She doesn't hesitate anymore. She's shooting. She's running around in the factory with Peacemaker shooting dead people. In her mind, though, you're adding those to her body count.

She's not skilled enough in combat to know that she didn't have to do that, she's letting her chopper fly. She's bussed at people, you know what I mean? And then when she plants the diary, she knows it was a wrong thing to do. Like, she's inching and inching closer to the line and now dipping her toe over it.

Whereas Peacemaker is starting to make human connections. He's starting to see hardcore as like a full person and not just like a sexual object. You know what I mean? He's sharing himself with people. He's creating bombs with people. He actually forgave Economos for putting his father in, something he might have killed him for before.

Who knows? You know what I mean? And so all of this stuff is unfolding as these two characters are like sort of mirroring each other in a way, but like almost bizarro Superman in their development. One's moving towards humanity and one's moving away from it. and it was done so subtly it was done so subtly

that I almost missed it you know and it and like watching this I want to see how far she goes because it's like I'm not,

this is going to be really really heady and like too much but there's this great book called The Sword and the Shield is by Pineal Joseph and it's about Dr. King and Malcolm X and listen guys, God damn it.

don't even write us. I'm not comparing out of bio and fucking peacemaker to Dr. King and Malcolm X. I don't even want to hear it. You know, it's February or tomorrow and all you guys are going to pretend like for the next 28 days that you care about black history. So I just want to start you off right now with a little black history in this podcast. All right.

So this is just what to get you guys going. Like, Vigilandi would be proud of me right now. But the book is about the fact that Malcolm, Malcolm X started all the way over here. Dr. King started all the way over here, but at least politically, when each man passed away, they were closer than you think they are.

Dr. King's rhetoric had maybe gone up a little bit. He had become a little more radical, and Malcolm X had become far less radical as things go. And I always love when you take two characters and move them from the outside to the middle. And I think that's what you're seeing. That book is fascinated because it talks about the issues in their life that brought them there. And when I watch

Ata Bio and Peacemaker, it's like, okay, they both have issues with their parents in different ways. The only difference between Peacemaker and Ata Bio, as far as their parents go, is that Peacemaker knows what an asshole his father is. And I don't think

Outabio knows yet, but she's learning. As she's around people that talk about Waller, that talk about who she is, she's learning. And she's going to have a decision to make. And I'm just wondering which this is, which this she's going to make at the end of it. Yeah, it's been really fascinating to observe, like, her facial expressions as other people

are talking about, like, the vile acts that Waller has committed in the past or would be capable of committing in the future. And it definitely, I think that, like, one of the through lines of the show is that each of these characters has their own specific backstory, their own specific outlook, their own specific circumstances. But one of the uniting, one of the uniting factors for all of them is that they are all in some way at war with themselves, right? and with the different aspects of their own identity and desire.

This transitions nicely into our next mailbag question. So, Jomey, you want to tee that one up for us? I got you. From at Connor Beals, how successful do you think the show has been in Rehabilitating Peacemaker as a character? In the film, his actions felt too heinous to be redeemed. Yet, the show has almost retcon those aspects

of his personality entirely. It's the one part of the show that I'm still struggling with. I had almost forgotten about Flagg so they flashback and showed us his face. It's the one part of the show that I'm still struggling with.

The one part of the show that I'm still struggling with is and Peacemaker seems to be struggling with it too. Yeah. I think that's crucial. Coming out of the Suicide Squad, I hated Peacemaker.

I hated him. I thought he was cool. At first, he was okay. But then after he killed Flag, Flack, conscience of the suicide squad and has been that throughout his run in the suicide squad is always the soldier the one who you feel like well if rick flags going along with this there must be some sort of way that task force x is doing the right thing because he's such a consummate soldier you know

what i mean uh so yeah right now i think they're doing a great job of rehabilitating him just because or something I mentioned in the other podcast, the easiest way to rehabilitate somebody is to show us all while they're fucked up. You know? It's like we've seen this in like, this is a trope that's been done over and over and over again. You think somebody's crazy

and then you see where they come from and you go, oh my God, how are they not crazier? Like right now, the fact that peacemaker isn't a racist really makes him a hero. You know, like it'll, because his father is the most racist bastard that's ever that's ever lived, at least in this universe.

I'm sure there's, you know, guys who are vying for that, even in that universe. But still, though, he killed Rick Flagg and was going to kill Ratcatcher. You know? And so, you know, I'm assuming that Flag is actually dead.

I don't know if they're going to do any comic book press the digitation with that. Assuming that Flag is actually dead. I wonder how, how they're going to directly have us come to terms with that. Like directly, not indirectly, where we love the character so much, but it seems to be at some point

that there's going to have to be a direct reckoning on what happened to Flag. Yeah, and I think a direct reckoning not only with Flagg, but just more broadly with all of these really foul aspects of Peacemaker. That's obviously one of the, you know, we talked about this in the suicide squad pod as well. There's definitely some, like, meta gun stuff going on in both peacemaker and suicide squad in terms of his interest in, like, image rehabilitation and how that works, right? And what the appetite is for that and how that unfolds. Like, I think also even though, like, again, as we discussed earlier, guardians and peace.

The Guardian's piecemaker are like not the same and I've not done the same things, clearly. This draw toward fleshing out less fully established characters, warts and unsavory aspects and really like noxious aspects in some cases and all so that we can understand in full who a person is and then like reach a conclusion about our interest in them. So I think to like, in terms of just like the specific phrasing of the question, I don't, I don't think it's a retcon because I think that this has always been the plan. Like, I think that this has always been one of the reasons that Gunn was interested in making this show and interested in exploring this character more fully, right? And I think that Peacemaker and Chris have certainly not been presented

as like fully good on the show. You know, he kills a ton of people still. And then you balance that. There are these counterweights that are, like, spotted throughout the five episodes that we've seen so far, right? So he's killing a bunch of people. He's constantly putting out his catchphrase about how whatever he's, you know, willing to do whatever it takes, right? Peace at any cost. But then we see the way that his like PTSD sets in when it's time to actually pull the trigger and kill those children. He can't do it, right?

Presumably thinking about his brother and the loss of another child in his life, right? he is not a racist like his father, but he can't fully disavow him either. I mean, presumably that will be one of the things that happens in the final three episodes, but it hasn't happened yet. He's becoming more adept at navigating adult civil conversations, but he's still going to be immature and sexist and out of touch in the way that he speaks about women. So he is just so, so, so deeply flawed. And I agree with what you said about, like, how crucial it is to not only, like, have learned about his father, but to actually see him,

like, this force of real evil and horror in his life. It's just as crucial, though, to, I think, say, like, that's not really an excuse for the things that he does. It helps us understand them, but it doesn't, it doesn't explain them away. And, like, the show is, I think, very invested in exploring that dynamic with us. I think you mentioned this earlier, but the other characters, the way that they speak about Chris, in every respect,

when they call him an asshole, when they call him a dick, when they are appalled by the thing, you can't call somebody's sugar tits, you can't call somebody's sweet cheeks, etc. Right? Like the conversation that vigilante has

with him about his father where he's like, so why don't you kill him, right? They're constantly calling out the poor decisions that he's making or the awful things that he's doing, the bad things that he's doing. But then there are these moments where they're saying to him or to us as an audience, right? Like he's got a big heart inside. Like, Audubio says to Adrian, right? Now, Chris, he has a big heart. So he wants to find something to love, but there's nothing to love inside that man, meaning his father. And that kind of

captures that, that dissonance, that play there. Right. But then like a moment that they have together where Adubio actually says directly to him, you really aren't a bad guy. You just use being a dick as a way to push people away. But if you just take a second and drop that and be Chris Smith, I think people actually might like you. That feels like not only like a crucial moment in that character's arc, but kind of like a line to the audience, right?

Speaking to us about how we're supposed to grapple with like being appalled by the things that this character is done and also becoming like increasingly invested in the character's journey. It's really interesting. Yeah. And so a couple of things, right? So the killing thing, we learned why it's not a big deal for him. It's not a big deal for him because it's attached to his trauma, right?

Like it's a he had to kill somebody as a kid, his father. Like even that, all of this, none of that stuff is an excuse. People don't need excuses. What they need are reasons. Human beings searched for reasons, right? It's not an excuse, but his dad was making them kill people when he was. still in grade school. So killing people just isn't a big deal to him.

It should be. And perhaps he's going to learn what a big deal it is to actually take a life. But it's not a thing because he wasn't given the love and he wasn't taught any appreciation for human life. Also, when you look at what's going on with whatever happened to his brother, that he loved his brother. And that seemed like you could tell, that seemed like a relationship that would have been a little give and take, that would have had some tenderness, that would have had some of, like, everything that we get from our familial, our familial connections, right? People that protect you, people that look out for you, people that you know you can talk to.

Like, that might have all happened had he not, well, I'm not saying that he killed his brother, but had he had the situation with his brother not happened? Let's say that he did have something to do with it. It's almost as if he killed the part of him that would have learned, how to love and learn how to respect and learn how to work together and learn how to actually even look up to someone since his father wouldn't allow him to look up to him. You know what I mean? So for me, learning all that about him, it kind of does set the character back at zero.

It doesn't excuse anything, but it says, okay, look, you know this guy is fucking terrible, but here's what you didn't know. You know, this guy did this, but here's what you didn't know. it's hard in these movies when they say, hey, I killed you, but it wasn't personal. It was just business. I always hate that line because I'm like, motherfucker, what could be more personal?

I don't get to drink Sunny Delight anymore. Like, you take away all Sunny Delight. Guess what? Like, nobody gets to see multi, you kill somebody in this movie now. He doesn't get to see multiverse of madness. You've taken Dr. Strange away from him. What could be more personal than that?

You know what I mean? But there's a possibility that for peacemaker, it's really not. It's just something that happens when people are at cross purposes. And all of that stuff is learned. The show will be about what he could unlearn. And I think they're doing a good job of kind of setting that up.

It's kind of, it's kind of, James Gunn is great. It's fascinating in a way to watch. I mean, it's like some of that is too, watching and learning more about those, like, psychological scars and how much of it is something that he is repressed, how much has he been overcompensating for that pain by swinging so fully in the other direction.

I love how you put that about unlearning it. That's, I think that sums it up very, very well. Our next question connects to something that we were chatting about a bit earlier. This is once again from Arjuna and Steve. Was vigilante's plan to kill the white dragon flawed? Yes, of course. But he was reacting on emotion.

Like he, like, I think this is the different. between vigilante and fucking Batman, right? Like, I think we're meant to see vigilante as a guy who can kick a lot of people's asses, but it's something less than a Justice League worthy superhero. We're meant to see vigilante. And, you know, there's knowledge about vigilante in the comic books. He's not quite this way. You know, the guy was actually the DA.

But, like, we're, like, we need to see vigilante as someone who, he says. I don't have emotions like other people. He probably doesn't think about shit like other people, right? So he's like, I get inside right now. The scene with him doing that in front of the cops is so hilarious. Like, what are you doing? Like, the cops just watching him. He gets in and do the whole thing and makes his father attack him.

It's probably not the best way to go about that. There's probably other ways that more skilled and, like, high. highly tactical heroes would have done that. But it's the way vigilante would have done it. Pick a fight with the big guy, make him attack you, and then beat him to death after you've been arrested on some kind of petty little misdemeanor. But I think how comically bad it was. And then not only that now, but how destroyed he was when he realizes that he went about it the wrong way. I just wanted to give the fucking guy a hug, man.

He was just trying to do what he thought was right. So, yeah, I think it was probably poorly trained, but that's part of who he is. Poorly, poorly thought through, should I say. Yeah, I think, like, again, it kind of taps into this through line among the characters. It manifests differently for all of them. But, like, first of all,

it gives us just this great sequence and episode, right? And more broadly, like, one of the points, I think clearly one of the central propositions of the show is to examine, A, that people are flawed, right? Including the people who like deign to go do these things on other people's behalf. And then also that people who are flawed can like find strength in each other and work their

way toward some more like fully realized version of themselves and whatever their shared mission is. So you have like an amazing Mern moment where he says like I thought, Waller gave me soldiers instead it's the fucking apple dumpling gang. gang. And, you know, John loved the poll. He said, great pull. And Merton says, like, they're incompetent dingus is. That's what the, the Apple Dumpling Gang is. But then what's John's follow-up line to that? But they always triumph in the end. They always feel right. And like, child Bill Bixby. Yeah, shot out Bill Vicksby. Exactly. And so both of those halves map on really

neatly to this group of characters, right? There's the like, oh my God, incompetent dingus aspect. and then working toward that triumph in the end, I love, again, the shared nature of this because it's not just that vigilante went in without fully thinking through what he was going to do or how it might work or what the consequences would be most crucially if it didn't work.

It's that Leota sent him in. Same thing, right, without thinking through what the ramifications would be if it didn't because she, like you said from earlier, is trying to put that lesson, that conversation with hardcore into action of acting, being more decisive. Similarly, the whole entire,

thing with having peacemaker's father in jail in the first place because of what John did with the registration and the fingerprints, like all of the characters are impulsive in a way that is in the short term consistently to their detriment, consistently. But because that is

something that they share and can recognize in each other, it could be the pathway toward like really changing that about themselves in a meaningful way, but it's also kind of like embedded in the like, you know, band of misfits nature of what makes them kind of compelling in the first place. And then as you said, what that builds toward when hardcore picks him up and he gets in the car and he's like, he's still

alive. I'm Adrian. And then starts breaking down in tears. I thought that was so incredible for three reasons. One, that's in that like mash cut sequence where we're seeing all of these characters and in some sort of really, really like fraught emotional state. Two, what a like fever pitch moment in the show, and it's happening in tandem with an introduction, right? That tells us so much about, like, where they are with each other and how quickly, again, this is all happening. And then to like that point you made a couple times about the emotion, he will say, I don't feel emotions like a typical person, but we see right there that that is just not true, right? Like, of course he has that inside of him, because they're all people. And so, like, it's going to

be literalized in the side of a James Gunn story with the House of Pain lyrics playing, right? but like it's there for us to think about in almost like a more poignant way than we're sometimes allowed to in like a really really fast-paced rapidly moving film it's just one of the things

that's really cool about about these television shows it just gives us some room and time with those characters it's great think about one last thing about that too when it talks about out of bio like she's better at this thing she thinks she is

she's just like her mom she manipulated him into doing that. She thought it was right. But she used. So she's been around Waller for a long time. And she's probably picked up more from her brother than she thinks she has. You know what I mean? And so I just saw her like, hey, she did the exact same thing.

She sent somebody into a dummy mission because she thought that it was right, not thinking about how that would have. effect that person if shit went left, which is what Wallet does all the time. And it seems like one of those things that she kind of like, even if it's subconsciously, maybe recognizes about herself and fears. And that's part of why she like actually doesn't want to do this, right? And we see the way that that manifests inside of her marriage, her relationship, this kind of push pull of like, you know, her mother saying like, you're going to just ignore like your

God-given ability and talent to do this thing at this like really supreme level. And then like something like, you know, Mern saying to her like, okay, I didn't necessarily want you on this task force, but, like, prove that you're, prove that you could do it or harker saying, like, basically what are your credentials, right? And then the fact that she is able to, like, not only earn peacemakers trust more quickly than any of them, but consistently actually, like, see a path forward or solve the riddle. She's the one who finds the bottling manufacturer, right? Like, she is operating actually at an incredibly high level of ability and expertise and knows that that's something she's capable of and maybe fears it because she doesn't

want to be caught up in this world, like the call that she makes after planting the diary about how this job is getting to her and what it is doing to her. Like these characters are in a surrounding where, and this is of course true of peacemaker himself, right? Like the way that all of these characters say, like, you know, we need a killer. Like, we need you to do the thing that part of you definitely doesn't want to do, even though it is kind of the defining central propulsive force of your life. Like that dissonance is, I think, really interesting.

Yeah. Look, there's just, there's so many things that are spinning at once. And it seems like really besides Economos, who I feel like it's, it's just more important for him to repair his relationship with Peacemaker, which we see, which I love the fact that it, that they really got through it over a band. It's a band. And even with hardcore, which we haven't really talked to. about her taking the pictures

and being on the group text with everyone. Start in the group chat, yeah. Start in the group chat. Like everybody's being let in a little bit and everybody's kind of discovering a new version of themselves. But, you know, they're going to have to purge the old. It's just a great show.

Great show written that way. This gets us actually to a hardcore question. Jomey, what do we get? Great segue, man. All right. Our next question is from Blue Bomber. Can you discuss whether you think Harcourt is a butterfly.

In Monkey Dory, there was a plot convenient deactivate X-ray vision before Peacemaker went into the guerrilla room. Also, a weird, we-good between her and Mern. Plus, Mern is a butterfly. What do you guys think? I don't think anybody else in their crew was a butterfly besides Mern.

So, like, I thought about it. The Mern reveal that he was a butterfly was actually shocking to me. What an incredible way to end that episode. Right. But I'll keep this one short and sweet. I don't think she's a butterfly. Same.

I agree that the We Good exchange with Mern was definitely suspicious, but I think it could be just as likely that she might be on to Mern and potentially could even show up at this decisive moment between Mern and Aduyahu at the beginning of the next episode. I think presumably one of the first things that will happen is they will put the X-ray vision helmet on and just scan everyone immediately, rule out anybody else being a butterfly.

I think that it's just it would diminish the impact of us finding out Mern as a butterfly if somebody else inside of their group of six is also one. I think it's kind of that simple. So I say no. All right. Next question. This is one that I put in. Oh, very nice. Oh, I'm into this. I really want, I really, I was so excited to talk to you about this.

There have been numerous incredible moments inside of this DCEU television show, a DC story where peacemaker or other characters dunk on and annihilate DC superheroes. Do you have a favorite peacemaker knock on another DC hero? obvious the Batman thing so good oh my god so good I'll never forget watching Phantom Menace with my dad and my dad's I think I've told you this story before my dad realizing that Darth Vader was the little boy he thought it was Luke Skywalker for whatever reason dad goes I go to my dad I go I go he's like who's a little boy there

I go, it's, uh, Anakin Skywalker. I was like, who is that? It's like, that's Luke Skywalker's dad. My dad goes, oh, well, that's Darth Vader. And I'm like, yeah, before he turns. And my father goes, well, why won't somebody cut his fucking head off? I'm like, he's a kid. You know what I mean?

Like, they don't know. He's like, he's like, this movie is stupid. All the kids walking around and Darth Vader, well, nobody do nothing about it like that. They're not aware yet. But he couldn't. He couldn't watch him become Darth Vader. Because the only thing that he knows is Darth Vader,

most evil guy in the galaxy. And that's going on. I say this to say all of this. The Batman thing is so real. Batman, you have a code. But let's just talk about it real quick. Jason Todd beat the hell out of. Shadow girl in the face.

Now she, you know what I mean? Just so many people. And that's just the Joker. like the Rittler, hairbrain schemes coming up with stuff. Like the penguin, poison ivy,

sure, she's about the environment, but at the same time, she wants plants to rule us and all kinds of crazy shit. At some point, at some point, Batman would have to make some real,

real decisions. If not with anybody else other than the Joker, it is so real. Like, it's so real. And he says that, he's like, and when he says, I'm surprised D.C. let this put in. This is actually a little hole in the cape right there.

When he says, I can make an argument. The Batman is responsible for the deaths of millions of people that would have been alive had Superman's wife, which Superman got into injustice, really, like, really, I thought it was an amazing little thing. You know why I don't have a Cotterian, whatever he said, of enemies, because all my enemies

are fucking six feet under. I'm like, yo, man. That was, I get it. We don't want a bunch of heroes teaching kids to go around and kill your enemies. And you shouldn't. I'm against it. Talk to your enemies.

Do a podcast if you have to, whatever. But I'll tell you one thing. The Joker goes, when I break out of Arkham Asylum, I'm going to kill every child in Gotham. He breaks out of Arkham Asylum. He tries to

kill all the kids in Gotham. And the bad man puts him back into Arkham Basilis to try to break out and then kill all the old folks in Gotham. So that really made a lot of sense. And you can tell, I always love it when writers do this, that wasn't just, that was James

Gunn's thoughts on the matter. James Gunn doesn't think that that makes sense. I could tell what writers are doing that. It was great. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. It's crazy too because he got no problem sending goons to the hospital with CTE. You know, they got them breathing through tubes. But the Joker gets to go to, gets to walk to Arkham Asylum.

Yeah. It's wild. Yeah. It's wild. Yeah, it's true. It's been kind of like shocking, but in a delightful way, like how many dunks there have been on other established DC characters. and like, you know, probably the main runners up here

because my pick is also the Batman one. I mean, that was just like sublime. You know, Peacemaker's saying that Aquaman fucks fish and... Can't rule it out. And saying that Superman has a poop fetish, like very much in the running for being chosen here. Yeah, Superman's poop finish.

What did he say? He likes to Ipsain in the old whatever. I don't know what the fuck that means. He's like, he's like, of the old, all the days, where do you get this nonsense? Hey, we just see, we're gotta get the soundlights for, for these here. They're just, they're, they're unbelievable. But like, to your point, like the Aquaman one, you know, yeah, maybe, but at the Superman one, they're kind of like things that you can dismiss that the other characters do, but there's like

a truth at the core of the Batman critique. I had the same thought. I was like, I actually can't believe they put this in the show. Like, they called Batman a pussy on the show. on the show. And I love the way that he bakes in the specific villain identities and names into his critique. Like, you know, when he literally says, he's a jackass who wrestles with murderers, dressed like clowns. But then the best part, of course, was when he said, riddle me this. How many people do you think Batman indirectly murdered? Just an incredible sequence. I love that.

That neighbor just wanted to have a chat, you know, just wanted to have a chat and found himself on the other of that incredible scene. By the way, that character right there, people are going to think I'm an asshole for this. I relate to Peacemaker so much with that character. Sometimes, I'll be honest with you. I love all of y'all. I love to have fun.

I love to talk about it. I know you guys have questions about all kinds of stuff. You want to talk to me about the Kanye shit all the time. I get it. But sometimes I'm just walking a dog. And I've actually started taking a back route through the alley. so that I could just walk the dog in the morning and get back into Crip.

You know, so when Peacemaker sees that guy and he doesn't feel like having that conversation, so he ducks under to try to get to the door quicker, it's just little shit like that in a show that makes me really relate to the character and to the show itself. It's great, too, because there are so many moments when Peacemaker's, like, not famous or not recognized, right?

Like, he walks into Fennel Fields with his full suit on and everybody makes fun of him, but like no other patrons in the restaurant come up to him and are like, peacemaker. Oh my God. Right. There's that funny dynamic where like he just can't get into the expanded secret room without having to have an annoying conversation with the guy who's trimming his roses.

But he also can't get any like positive reinforcement or praise from the public. It's just amazing. The whole like super villain, oh, you're a super villain, right? Conversation too with the neighbors. Just so good. hilarious. Jomey is the Batman one your pick too? Or are you

You have got to be Team Superman there? No, I'm team Batman Like I said Like he got guys They can't pay medical bills Like what are they doing out there In these streets

They're just trying to make a living You know, now they're in a full body cast You know what I'm saying Needed like on an iron lung You know I'd rather be dead Didn't have to pay Gotham medical bills

I'm just saying Let's be real Can I dip pick here? Can I do it What little dip pick before we leave? Yeah Are you quarter flipping for? I'm not about the quarter flip.

Maybe. But I will put this to you guys' heads. Are we out of the DCEU here? Because Afflex Batman kills people. Allegedly. They died. I don't know what the... Day, he was light motherfuckers up.

Am I wrong? In that warehouse scene that he put the dude's blood on the wall? Yeah. But even when the Batmobile was in that chase, which you guys could say what the fuck you want. want to say, that whole sequence is bad. That whole sequence is bad ass. That shit works.

But he's like shooting rocket launches at people and stuff like that. Like he's light motherfuckers up. Yeah. So I just, that's a good point. Yeah, because it definitely is in the DCEU, you know,

DCU TV. So yeah, that's a, it's a good point. It's a good point. We're heading into the, the multiverse of DC stories because the impending Batman film is not on this earth,

right? That's going to be an Earth 2 story. but yeah. Yeah. You're right. Bat Fleck. Huh. Good note.

Yeah. He actually kills people. So yeah. Oh, man. Okay, we have two more mailback questions to wrap. Nine and ten. Jomey. Rapid fire.

What do we got? Let's get it. We're going to run this two minute drill better than Jimmy G. Let's go. Ah, you jerk. What? You jerk. What?

Oh, boy. He's just goes, let's go ahead and ask the question. Who's going to throw the pick? Oh, man. I'm just stating facts. I don't know. Y'all saw the game last night.

At the real jam cap, what is another character you would like to see get a show like Peacemaker? A show that expounds on the character's concept or personality. Marvel, DC, video games, comics,

anything. What do you guys want to see? So I got one Marvel, one DC, the DC when you guys are going to hate. I have a Hawkman thing. Okay. Always have, always have had like a Hawkman thing.

I just, I see Hawkman for some reason, Hawk girl as well. Hawk woman, is it Hulk woman? It's Hawk Woman, it's Hulk Woman. Why is it Hawk Man and Hulk Girl? Should it be Hawk Boy and Hawk Girl? Anyway, like, but I always liked Hawk Man. I'm so excited that we're going to get more Hawk Man in the Black Adam movie. because I would just like to know

about Hawkman's superhero stuff in a normal everyday but having wings and going around the wings and something like Hawkman and in Marvel it's a little-known character Night Thrasher. I think you can make an amazing Night Thrasher show

a skateboarding black teenage kid you don't have to do the whole new warriors right a skateboarding black teenage kid that's a superhero like a street-level superhero at night. Like with just the way things are, I think Night Thrasher could be amazing. Now, it's not going to play into the bigger MCU and all of that.

That stuff is strictly street-level unless you bring the New Warriors into it or you do the other Night Thrasher who's actually a mutant. But I always thought that like a Night Thrasher show could be dope. Always kind of a kitsy character, skateboarding black kid that was the leader of the New Warriors. But I always like that. Interesting. Amazing picks. Jomi, Steve, Arjuna.

Anyone have a nomination to throw out here? I do because I just got finished reading Invincible. I would love to see a tech jacket, like television series. Who's that? Tech jacket. Oh, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He comes in the comics a little bit later. Later on, yeah.

But I don't want to spoil, like, anything for the plot. But he's really powerful. Like, he hangs with the big boys. So I would love to see, like, how he got there and, you know, see, him like actually do some cool stuff, you know, aside from what he does in the comics. So I would love to see some, some tech jacket stuff. Amazon Prime. Hit me up.

Arjuna, do you a nominee? I love static shock as a kid. I love a static shock. Oh, that would be dope. That's a fun one. I don't know what to pick here. I'm terrible at this because I always think about like, especially now with, you know, the Disney Plus MCU show, Star Wars show era, now DC TV here on HBO Max.

obviously we've had DC TV shows for aions elsewhere. I'm always like, oh, let's take a character who, I like the Peacemaker model, right, taking a character who has been in another property but wasn't someone we knew as well and then giving us more time. I'm always, like, drawn to those.

So, you know, I would like take a Drax spinoff. That's a character we've spent a ton of time with in the MCU, but to kind of go with that parallel of just that centering an entire spinoff around someone we would like to see. in a new way and get to spend more time with that would be fun. In terms of like characters who have been in Peacemaker, just as like a passing mention,

there are a lot of really fun ones. Like we got like the Batmite. You already mentioned Matter Eater Lad. We got the Battenance Batman. How about the Kite Man newspaper clipping on the wall at Peacemakers? Like let's get a Kite Man or a Batmite show. A spinoff from a spin-off. Spinoff's building exponentially from each other.

I don't know. I'll watch any one of these shows that they make pretty much. That's my honest answer. All right, we have one to go. It's the only note that we could possibly end on. Jomi, bring us home.

Brian Deanie asks, I love this question. I really do love this question. Who at the Ring of Verse would be the best at the opening dance sequence and who would be the worst? Oh, God.

Let's be honest here. Let's be very honest. Let's be open and honest with the audience, guys. I would be the worst for sure easily without question. There's no doubt in any of our minds. Right. We were all thinking it. So I wasn't going to say it.

I like this job. So I wasn't, so I got a sneaky wood here. Okay. I think Steve might be the best. That's very generous of you, Van. We did those little, either Steve or Chuck. Because remember we did that little Spider-Man's coming out. with that little dance video.

And in that little dance video, you know, I just stuck to normal moves. And I'm not feeling very dancing these days. But both Steve and Chuck surprised me. You know, they surprise me. Jomi, what do you think? I mean, I think I would be the best.

I've got the resume to prove it. You know what I'm saying? I did musical theater in high and middle school. Right? I was in a kissing. So did Steve, though. I was, with Steve in the case. Kensignetta with Stephen in debut, you know what I'm saying?

Steve wasn't outside like I was outside, you know what I'm saying? So I got the track history, I got the resume to prove it, you know what I'm saying? Steve, I don't know. You got it? You got what it takes, Steve? I'm gifted with a very small amount of sauce when it comes to that. So I think, I think I would be okay. Oh.

My pick is Jomey for the best because I think in addition to the resume that you just outlined if we're, if we're, you know, for being honest in the interest of candor, much like with the Spider-Man video that you guys just mentioned, you would decide many days out that this was going to be something that we did. You would practice for all of those days, and then you would drop it on everybody in real time, and you'd have a leg up, right? Absolutely, I'd put the time in.

I'd put the work in. Wake up at 4 a.m., you know, put in three hours before work, you know what I'm saying, and get her done. When we do this, when we do a Ring reverse recreation of the opening dance from Peacemaker, we're going to have our pets in it because eagle's in it and all of our pets are going to be in it.

It's going to be amazing. I can tell you one thing. If you try to have my dog get it, he's going to ruin everything. He's too affectionate. Like, he's too affectionate. He's going to be so excited with everything that's going on.

And then he's like 100 pounds. So like he's a little bit. We need some excitement. Yeah. There's actually a great on the HBO Max app. all these really fun little, like, bonus features for, they're under the first episode, I think, and there's a really fun one on the dance on, like, everybody training to do the dance. And, of course, you have all of these angles of it without Eagley, because he is, of course,

not actually there and CGI did. But I think that we could, I think that we could do it. I know that Halo would, you know, he'd be, he'd be difficult. He'd have some demands. You know, he'd need the preferred snacks in his, in his trailer on set, et cetera. By the way, they had little character snippets, and all of the human characters were one minute long, and Eagley's was two minutes long.

He had a longer bonus feature than anyone else. Incredible. The moment Eagley hugged him, I was like, Jesus Christ, bro. Incredible. Yeah. Incredible. And you know what? I will say this.

Two things we didn't talk about. One was White Dragons unfolding, hyperdimensional, extra dimensional layer, which was pretty cool. Yes. All right. I'm not trying to give any credit to White Dragon here. Let's say I have to give credit to White Dragon.

I give credit to White Dragon for taking care of Eagleie that whole time. No. No, here's the thing. He's keeping him in a garage. That's terrible. He's got like newspapers down under him. He's a eagle.

He needs to soar and fly. And there's not like have you been taking him out in exchange? but clearly he's not really nurturing him or caring for him. I mean, he's doing the absolute bare minimum. It's dismaying. Well, he does go from a garage to like a trailer, so I'm not going to say that it's like a tremendous, but at least he could get around, I guess.

I guess you're right. Yeah, no credit for White Dragon, although I'm not going to lie. That little extra-dimensional, like, layer was cool. I've never even seen that before. Like, you know what I mean? It's like the pocket dimension inside of a flirtkin. Exactly. What?

Plenty of room for the Tesseract and all of these new helmets, you know? My last question for you. What happens to what happens with White Dragon? So we can see this is not a spoiler. This is in the preview for the next episode at the end of episode five. We can see that he gets out, right? So he's going to be out for the next three. I think that that line when vigilante goes into the quantum expanded space and

observes that the armor has a lot of gaps in it, like a lot of vulnerabilities where the cloth is, like that line is definitely. there for a reason, right? 100%. So I think we will see one of those gaps in the armor come into play in a decisive moment. The question is,

will it be vigilante or another character, you know, wielding the fatal blow. I think it kind of has to be peacemaker. I mean, it's a pretty dark, pretty dark story, but I think he has to,

he has to decide, right? It could be atabaya. She kills his dad. If everybody, if she kills his dad, and everybody is getting back together, right? If everybody's starting to come together and she's peacemaker's number one pal,

if she kills his dad, that could be the wedge in between them that sets you up for season two. Or something. The good money, the good money is all peacemaker, without a doubt. Or eagerly. A beaker, a talon into a soft spot in the armor?

Let's fucking go. Eagley with a super intelligent butterfly, Eagley kills White Dragon, but I don't think he makes it to season two. You mean White Dragon, right? White Dragon. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

Stop! White dragon. It's like Igley at all come. It's going to be with us. All right, pals. Our table is ready at Fennell Field, so it's time to wrap today's episode. Thank you as always to our dove of peace,

Steve Allman, for producing this. episode. Butterfly catcher, Arjuna Ram Gapal, for his additional production work on this episode. An 11th Street kid, Jomea Denneron, for his work on the social in the mailback for this episode.

Be sure to head back into the Ring ofverse. On Wednesday for the Midnight Boys Book of Boba Fett Chapter 6 Instant Reaction. Pugh! Until then, eat peace, ringerversers. Feels like every profit claims real protein these days.

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