The Ringer-Verse - Revisiting 1988's 'Willow' Ahead of the New Series | House of Midnight

Episode Date: November 28, 2022

It is time to take the journey. In anticipation of the newest Disney+ series, Joanna, Van, and Mal return to discuss the 1988 fantasy classic 'Willow' (05:43). They bring you all their musings on the classic adventure film and how it shaped the era of fantasy to come. Hosts: Joanna Robinson, Van Lathan, Mallory Rubin Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Addition Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The time has come to get ready for the 2022 World Cup. And what better way to prepare than by revisiting the World Cup's most amazing goals? I'm Brian Phillips. I'm making a podcast about the history of the men's World Cup, told through the stories of 22 iconic goals. The show's called 22 Goals. It's out now on the Ringer Podcast Network, and we're having so much fun. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters.

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may help reduce the frequency of minor digestive discomfort, which includes gas, bloating, rumbling, and abdominal discomfort. To the ring of verse, your nexus podcast. Feed for all things fandom. I'm the number one Willow fan in the entire universe, Joanna Robinson. And joining me today is the other number one Willow fan of the entire universe. Van Leith and Hy-Avan, how are you? Oh, my God.

Matt Mardigan. Also joining us today is our dearest beloved friend, Mallory Rubin, who we have emotionally blackmailed into watching Willow for the first time so that she can come like, Swim in a nostalgia pool with us. Mallory Rubin. How are you feeling? Joe, Van, I dwell in darkness without you. The sun and the moon.

What a thrill to be here with you. What a joy. We're going to do a Vibes Only House of Midnight podcast today talking about the incredible 1980s fantasy film, Willow. That film was spearheaded by George. George Lucas ever heard of him. Directed by Ron Howard ever heard of him. I've heard of him lab.

And an incredible score by James Horner ever heard of him. It's Willow. Before we get into all that, quick programming reminders, just in case you thought this was like the Willow podcast this week. No, no. Think again, Van and I will be back on Wednesday for a Giovanna special on the new Disney Plus Willow TV series. I can't wait to talk about it with Van.

Genuinely, this is like my holiday gift from The Ringer. They're like, do you want to do not one but two, Willow Podcasts? I do. And that's about all I have to say about The Ringer versus Speak. You can hear Mali Rubin and yours truly talking about White Lotus, completely different vibe over on the prestige TV podcast feed. Do you want to enjoy that? Van, what do you have going on elsewhere in the Ringer network?

Nothing. Great. Happy holidays. It's where we're gearing up for one of the most controversial episodes. I can already say it now that it's coming. This is the Midnight Mulligan's episode. Oh, yeah. Where we are going to relitigate all of the Midnight Meter rankings and scores and things.

Steve and I have an agenda to get off. Okay. We're going to get it off. This might be a three-hour podcast with everyone fighting. It's a, this is going to be about the matrix. I knew it. It's me and Steve have a, me and Steve have a Matrix Resurrections. agenda to get off.

I watched it again last night. No. Gets better every time I see it. Steve isn't banging the show all year. Oh my God. All right. I was wrong. If you have any thoughts of feelings about the Matrix or Willow or white lotus theories,

because apparently people are already doing this, you can email us at hobbits and dragons at gmail.com. My inbox is full of white lotus theories. That's not the email associated with that show, but nonetheless, people are sending me theories. Yes, Mallory. The theory emails find you, just as the orgies find you if you're at the White Lotus. Hey, Mal.

Podcast. No. Are you watching White Lotus? No, but no. Give it a go. I need to check it out. Apparently now. Now that was a ringing endorsement.

My brain just blurred for a second. I was like, were there orgies and Willow? No. Okay. Mal, how else can people keep up to date on? the ringerverse. Well, the first thing that I'd recommend is following the pod.

Sure. You know, if you're interested in what might be happening here on the ringerverse, follow the pod. Follow the pod on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. The best way to know

what episode is coming is to see what episode is waiting for you in your feeds. I would also recommend following the ringerverse on the social media platform of your choosing. We're out there for you.

Memes, programming reminders, pod links, vibes, all of it. Videos of the boys. We love to see it. Van. Do you want to hit us with a spoiler warning today? What are we spoiling?

Today we're spoiling a 30-year-old movie. Willow. And guess what? If you haven't seen it, you're out of time. You're officially out of time. The deadline is today. this moment right here to have seen Willow because if not me and my friends

are going to spoil it for you the movie has you've had so much time Spoiler warning over I stuck in just before the deadline I was really proud of me though A couple of weeks Desperate anyway

Saturday night holiday week viewing for me What a treat it was Let's start there Mallory Tell me about your experience watching Willow for the first time on Saturday. I had a blast. So that's where I'll begin. Yeah.

I long ago, 36 years ago, was a baby born in 1986, two years before Willow. And though I didn't know it at the time, I was born with a ruin on my arm. The prophecy said I would one day view and love Willow and share it with my beloved pals here on the Ring or Worst. and, you know, our paths who can say where they'll take us and what the road that we travel will look like and who will travel it with. But I made it here after my journey at the Crossroads to share this podcast with you. What a sweet movie. What a charming movie. What a beautiful story about answering the call, the quest, fellowship, found family, magic.

Some of my favorite things in stories. Love that. The effects were so interesting. the dark. That's interesting. Interesting. Interesting. Interesting.

Very interesting effects. Yeah. Interesting. And these really like heartening, spirited elements of fantasy and possibility mixed in and imbued with these fantastical, like dark elements. Some of the stuff that happens in this movie is pretty scary.

You know, creatures' heads exploding, etc. I wonder how I would have found. about it when I was a wheat tot. Pigs. Everybody, you know, Transfiguration. I love it. I am really excited to hear how much this movie meant to both of you as kids throughout your lives because one of my favorite things, as you both know, is to, despite the deadline for the spoiler warning that Van said at the top, embrace the fact that it's never too late. It's never too late to welcome a new story into your heart and to share it with people you love. And I'm thrilled to be here today to do that with both of you.

It's, um, I re-watching it this week. I watched it at Thanksgiving night. We were just sort of like hanging out. I was like, hey, you want to watch well, oh, I have to watch it this weekend. And, uh, my, my family said yes. So that's what we did. Um, so, uh, I was struck by, I was just thinking about Mallory watching for the first time. And I was like, I wonder what it's like to watch this after being familiar with Lord of the Rings.

Because this is, it's like so clearly the way in which, you know, George Lucas used Star Wars and Indiana Jones to riff on like very known, you know, Flash Gordon and Adventure Serial sort of stuff. He's like, what if I make a Lord of the Rings story, essentially. That's what Willow is. So I don't think it's like trying to hide all the things that it lifts from Lord of the Rings. But I watched it before I had read a single page of Tolkien or seeing the film. You know, I was like seven or whatever at the time. And so I hadn't like exploring that.

So to me it was all like new and fresh. On the Tolkien front van, will you tell me your experience watching Willow this weekend? So my brother is a huge, huge Tolkien fan. Fig, leaf, whatever it is. Leaf by mingle. Whoa. And so, Joe.

I love it. I love it. Say it again, Joe. No. Say it again. So, you know, he's like so into it. And it's great. But it's also like, really?

You went to New Zealand. Like, you know, it's like you went there. It's like, hey, I'm hanging out and you're sending me all the pictures. And it's been his whole life. Sounds amazing. I know. Is he interested in having a new best friend? Can you connect us via text?

He is. No way, at D23 Van was just like texting his brother. and I was like, say this about Tolkien, say that about Tolkien. I just really want to be best friends with his brother. Absolutely 100%. So I think he's over at the house and I said, you know, watch a guy, watch Willow for the pod. New Willow show out. He's all very excited because he likes Willow.

And I said to him, I said, you know what, Willow is better than Lord of the Rings. Because that is not true. Because what's Thanksgiving without a fight, right, man? How did that go for you? I'm sitting around. You know, I got a glass of wine. I'm like, Willow's better to the Lord of the Rings. And he's like, shut up.

You know that's not true. I'm like, Lord of the Rings takes itself so seriously. Willow is having a fun time with a wink and a nod to us. You know, think about the, I was like, let's match up the characters. Yep. If we did a Willow Battle Royale, give me Frodo versus, now Frodo versus Willow. I take Willow. give me Matt Mordigan versus Aragon.

I take Mac Mardigan. And I just went down. Yeah. I take Mac Mardigan. Wow. I take Willow over Frodo. I would. I would not take Mad Mardigan over Aragon.

Matt Mardigan would kick the shit out of. By the way, this was me. I don't really believe this. This was me being a little brother. Yeah, Thanksgiving. Yeah. Ribbing him. It got.

out of hand to where, like, I was called ignorant of Tolkien. I was called stupid, like a fraud, because I don't know as much about this lore as I'm talking about. He's like, Van gets on the, Van gets on podcasts and acts like he knows a lot about this stuff. He only knows he had no childhood. He sat down and watched movies all day when I was in the library reading about the real stories that this stuff is based on. And it got to a certain point to where I couldn't draw it back in.

I couldn't get them back. You know, because when you get, when you spin a yarn, you want to leave enough thread out there to get somebody back, couldn't get them back. But you guys, just before you guys get that, I realized that Willow is not as good as Fellowship of the Ring as the Two Towers or as Return to King. I realized all of that stuff. It was just me being a little brother. I can still do that at 42. But I will say this. Last thing.

Willow is a very meaningful movie in my childhood. like super duper meaningful. It was my introduction to a lot of this type of stuff, just like you said. It was a movie that they made a huge big deal about, you know, Willow Cups, Willow stuff. It was this big deal. And I was too young.

Yeah. Love merch. No, he's, how'd I miss the merch? Merch. Oh, it was that Burger King or McDonald's or something? I was too young to realize that the movie didn't quite hit the lofty critical and commercial heights that people wanted it to, I was in wonderment from the very beginning,

and it hasn't changed even in all of these years. I love this film. I made all the Midnight Boys watch it months and months and months ago. I love this movie. You guys think naming numerous villains and magical creatures after critics had anything to do with the fact that the critics didn't like the movie? I think that could have had any bearing on the perception. That's literally a fun fact I learned this weekend, reading the Wikipedia.

page I did not now until this weekend. Mallory, I have a really important question to ask you because we're going to talk about like, so the 80s, you know, as Mallory already mentioned, she's like about five or so years younger than us. So like, we are micro generations apart. So like didn't exactly grow up like stewing in the high fantasy 80s the way that Van and I did. But more importantly, something that Mallory said to me, for she had seen Willow that kind

of shocked me, if she was like, I was never a Val Kilmer. person. So my question, and that's okay. Well, my question to you, Vans faces as otherwise, but I say, that's okay, Mallory. Well, my question to you, Mal is how, where are you on Val Kilmer post Willow? I would like to clarify. Okay. I've always enjoyed Val Kilmer as a performer. Okay. What I, what I said to Joe and what is true is that I'd never had like a crush on Val Kilmer or a Val Kilmore character before. I had never, I had never been smitten.

Until now. Until now. Until now. I mean, the palpable, overt Han Solo energy oozing off of this guy. Yeah. A rogue

with a ponytail? Yeah. With like the braids, the half. Wonderful. And it's interesting that you started with the Lord of the Rings comp,

because obviously that is very present and you can map things on very neatly. But it's also difficult watching the movie now as an adult to not think almost every frame and every character introduction about a Star Wars comp, which is like, of course,

the Lucas of it all. Yeah. It's a remake. So that's one of the really fun things. I, of course, can't, I can't relate to having seen this and having this be like one of my gateways into a fantasy adventure world,

but it is. is really, it is really neat to be able to, to bring all of the very present and, and clear comps to it. Joe, to your, to your, to your, to your note about the, the 80s, uh, 80s kid moviegoing experience of it all. I actually, I'm going to have to follow up with my parents about why Willow wasn't a part of my life, because I'm sort of confused about it now. Yeah. Because actually, I did spend a lot of time in my young years watching movies from the 80s. Like, I watched, I watched the Princess Bride at my, We went to my dad's every other weekend.

And we watched the Princess Bride basically every time we were there. That was a part of our, and that movie's 87, right? That's a good for and another, like, very easy and clear comp to make here. So I don't know. I don't know how Willow missed me or I missed Willow. I think the Princess Bride is a more, you have to see that movie. And Willow, you know what's funny is me. I thought, by the way, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, Joe.

No, go. But I think that I thought. Willow was that. I know. And I was kind of surprised when it wasn't. Like the Princess Bride, you are divorced from a large portion

of just pop culture-esque shit if you haven't seen it. You know what I mean? And I thought Willow was that way. I really did. And asking people if they've seen the movie, me and my sister watched this movie like once a week. We watched it

all the time. And it was on TV a lot. And there's a lot of people who, to your point, Mao, did not, that I thought that they just did, they didn't see it, even of my same age. I think it kind of disappeared. So, like, when it came out, my understanding is that when it came

on 88, it was seen as, like, a lesser Princess Bride. Like, the Princess Bride really overshadowed it. I think because Princess Bride has that, like, sort of ironic, frame narrative, like, extra level of detachment from, like, this is such an earnest movie. You know, and so the Princess Bride is like a cooler, like, the thing to love at the time. And I think it might have been on TV for a while, but Willow also disappeared for a good long time because it wasn't available on, like, home video or DVD for a long time before it showed back up on Disney Plus recently. So, like, it kind of vanished for a while from the cultural conversation.

And, like, I think it's really interesting that, like, even other, the 80s are so interesting because I think, you know, Sean and I had a conversation about this on the Big Pick a couple months ago. But, like, I think because of, like, D&D popping off the way it did in the 70s. And I think because of Tolkien having its, like, multiple, like, resurgencees in, like, the hit-be boom and stuff like that, the 80s fantasy boom was such an interesting time. but a lot of those movies are flops. So, like, movies that I love, like, legend with Tom Cruise, or Beastmaster, or even, like, Labyrinth and Dark Crystal, the Jim Henson

movies, like, this was, like, Hollywood was really chasing this, but they weren't usually successful, which is why the 90s kind of dried up for this high fantasy world, and we didn't get it again until Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter come back in, like, 2001. What were you going to say that, Van?

Reagan. You blame Reagan for this? I'm actually being for real. Okay, tell me why. Growing up in Baton Rouge, the city was run by Jimmy Swagger and Family Christian Academy. Right. And this was the rise of the religious right. This was the ride.

There was a, for every single finger on your hand, there was a superpower televangelist. Jim Baker, Jimmy Swagger, Billy Graham was still holding on. Jack Vanity. You know what I mean? There's a couple of people. other guys out there that I forgot, right? There was a stigma around films like this, and these

religious groups would go after these movies. I remember particularly watching Willow in Bruce Ard Apartments, Coy Avenue, Baton Rouge, and having friends over and saying, my mom won't let me watch this stuff. My dad won't let me watch this stuff. There was a real rebellion,

at least where I was from, Like my mom and my dad never had a problem with that. My mom would look at stuff like that. My mother is a very devout woman. It would be like, this kid's playing. His family is like magic and wizards and all of that. It's fine. Like it's whatever.

But I remember that there being a thing, that they're being a thing, the music. You know what I mean? Like there's a, in the legend, actually the devil was like there in a real scary way. I was scared of legend for a very long time. So I think a lot of this. Tim Curry is terrifying in that movie. But also kind of hot.

I'm not going to let you. Joe. You were a much legend and you talked to me about it, okay? I'll check it out. So I think a lot of this stuff was muted by the fact that there was such an underpinning and culture of the religious right at that time. I remember there being a discourse about Dungeons and Dragons. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Sure. Like when you play Dungeons. The Satanic Panic. Yeah. for sure. They're quite a stranger things. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So I think it's interesting that like, and like, listen, to your darkness point, Mal, like the 80s fantasy darkness because like legend is scary and fucked up. And like our main heroine turns into this like sexy goth princess and literally like dances around and is attracted to the devil. That happens in that movie, right? Return to Oz is one of the scariest movies that has ever existed. Br, that's a fucked up movie. That movie is fucked up, bro.

Horrifying. And we'll give you nightmares forever. So, like, in the 80s fantasy, was, like, not afraid to go there. And, yeah, in Willow, like, Bab Morda, who is also the main bad guy in return to Oz, Jean Marsh, just, like, pulling double duty in my nightmares for my childhood. Like, turning everyone to pigs and, like, the whole final act that. that takes place in the rain with, like, two old women just, like, flinging each other around the room and badmort is all, like, waxy and terrifying. While a baby, I think legally you're not allowed to put a baby in the rain the way that they put the baby in the rain, but the baby's just in the rain, Mal, what do you think about it?

As Batmorta's face is, like, caving in and the, the surface of her face is starting to, like, resemble a brain, you know, the, the ripples and the curves. And then we'd pull lightning from the sky. I just started doing my Palpatine voice. Oh, yeah. I just started as a good, good. Unlimited power! Oh, yeah.

So funny. On the deeply unsettling and disturbing front, how about the movie opening, beginning with the imprisonment of every pregnant woman in the realm? Yeah. Pretty intense opening node. And then like, more of the face. Here come demon dogs to, like, track you down across the countryside.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Snarling. When she turns them into the pig and she starts doing, like, the snorting. Yeah. It's so, man, it was like so, it's like so guttural and scary and she's so bad. And I, okay, obviously there's been some time that's passed. So if you're watching Willow and you're expected to be blown away.

by the effects that you see on screen, then you're probably going to be a little disappointed. And that's another thing that why I'm so interested for the Disney Plus series, because it's almost like we get to see what they can do with a real budget and some real technology. However, I was expecting the movie to suffer more upon rewatch from some of the bad effects or some of the,

I guess not the era of effects they were in. And it really didn't, man. I think the story is so solid in Willow that you just kind of go, ah, fuck it. Let's go. And the scary stuff is still scary. The trolls still bothers me.

The troll is still old. The trolls are still ultra disgusting. The demon that comes forth from the trolls, it still makes my skin crawl. The movie still works, man. And I've seen the best of effects, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

The real, the, the, the, the, Margin, pulling the cave troll and Mines of Moria move on the, on The Demon is great. No, those trolls, those trolls crawling along, which are just guys in suits, really scary. There's a lot of cool practical effects in this. Like, a lot of the brownie stuff. There's an ILM docuseries on Disney Plus called Light and Magic,

and there's a segment on Willow, and I think it's like episode five, where Ron Howard, Ron Howard, Ron Howard, who looks exactly like my dad did in 1988 with, like, the mustache and, like, the feathered hair and stuff like that. is like he's talking about how he wasn't a tech guy when he got hired to direct this movie. He doesn't understand tech, but he goes to ILM.

And yeah, so they did a lot of this practically. Like, a lot of the brownie stuff looks dicey, you know, because the brownies are these small guys. And, you know, but they also built a bunch of, like, large sets. So when, like, the brownies are, like, rolling around the cart with, like, the apples and stuff like that. That's just, like, Kevin Pollock and the other dude just, like, rolling around a giant set. But the big special effect that's in this movie that they talk about in that docu-series is when Finn Rizel is changed to all those different animals, the morpings. Yeah. Yeah.

And how that was just like this huge state-of-the-art, like, breakthrough in ILM tech that they did. That holds up. Yeah. It really does. Yeah. The effects are kind of a neat hybrid of a nostalgic time capsule of what things looked like in 1988. if you were trying to make a movie like this, and that really cutting edge innovation.

Like when you see the morphing sequence, you can feel that that was innovative at the time and then to read up and learn that that was literally invented and discovered for this film. Like, it's, you know, Van, your point about being really eager to see the effects on Disney Plus, I'm sure that the show will look wonderful, even just like watching the trailer again

after watching the movie. I was like, this looks like it's going to be a blast. The world looks beautiful. There's always the... OG trilogy prequel enhanced effects aspect to consider when something that's really embedded in your mind as looking and feeling a certain way is updated so fully. And it's like, will we, do I want that? I see we. I watched this movie two days ago. We will we collectively like reject that that's what Willow is supposed to look like. But that'll be an interesting thing.

Will we, the OG Willow fans. Well, we the people who have been thinking about what Willow looks like for Literally 40 hours. Be ready to see. Well, we reject change. When we reject progress like Yellowstone. I stand in the way of progress. I'm glad we brought up. What a Yellowstone last night.

My gosh. Yeah. Joe, we're ready and we're waiting. You know what I'll talk about a show that I haven't seen on my fellow podcast. Okay. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks,

followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions increase, risk of infections or lower ability to fight them and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection,

flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfairadio.com. This episode is brought to you by Sweetgreen. The day doesn't ask for permission. Lunch window? before you saw it coming. You deserve a break that actually satisfies. Sweet Green's new wraps have got you. Real ingredients? Zero shortcuts. Everything you love in one hand.

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Kelly Riley and Cole Houser returned and this time they're taking on Texas. As Beth and Rip build a future together, peace will have to wait as they face corruption, danger, and a ruthless rival ranch willing to protect its secrets at all costs. Legacy is a beautiful thing,

but only if it survives. Dutton Ranch starring Colhouser, Kelly Riley, Annette Benning, and Ed Harris, now streaming on Paramount Plus. I'm glad you brought up the Mad Mardigan-Hon-Sullo vibes. I thought especially when Sorshawks calls in like a scruffy-looking nerve herder. I thought that was like really a little on the nose.

No. I love Sorsha. I will say re-watching it. Sorcia's change of heart comes very quickly. Yeah. It's sudden. It's like literally. It's literally.

It's like, her heart wasn't in it from the beginning. She just turns on a dot. She sees Val with his shirt off once. And she's like, that's, that's enough for me. I think I know what it is, though. What is it? His teeth, man. At first, the teeth were so fucked up.

She couldn't see. And then, because that's disgusting even still. And then as soon as he starts doing a little better, he gets out, his teeth get better. She's down. Didn't know they had crushed white strips back in 88. But my God, the results are instant. I wonder if he's using like the charcoal toothpaste, all that new fangled tech for at-home whitening. Wonderful.

Great smile. I love that Valda's a whole long action sequence in a dress. And then the dress stays on and it's just like looks great, is great. He pulls it off. It turns into like a loincloth at one point. Still works. It does. Yeah.

Then he gets like this whole black ensemble and then he just like forgets how buttons work or whatever. His shirt is just open in the snow for no reason at all, at all. He need, you know, ventilation. Oh, right, right. You need to breathe in battle. Too hot to be cold. Val's great. And Val's like a really important part of why this movie works at all.

But let's talk about Warwick Davis. who, like, is a cultural icon in general, but hasn't had a role like this where it's his show since this movie. Fan, talk to me about Warwick Davis. 18 years old. 18. Yeah.

Wild. 18 years old at the time that this is coming. This is my introduction to Warwick Davis. And it's weird because, you know, in the community, at least in my community, you call somebody by the name of the character that you loved for the rest of their lives. So me and my trying to get my sister to watch, life is too short. She's like, oh, who's in that?

I'm like, oh, Willow is in it. It's his, he's Willow. And so to see him come back, the character is much like you were talking about, much like Luke Skywalker, and the fact that there is this destiny that he's trying to access, that people can see in him, but he has to go through a hero's journey and a trial to get to it. You can tell earlier on that there's a certain wonder,

a certain sense of adventure, a certain sense of decenness that is different about Willow. Willow wants more. He's actually destined for more, and he can feel that. He wants different things than the rest of the people in this town want. It was a very affecting portrayal for me as a kid. Just to be honest with you,

because I had never seen, like, a little person be the star and the hero of the show. And it was to see the film centered on him, to see him not be something that was a sideshow or something that was brought in for a comedic effect, but to see strength, vulnerability, see all of that stuff. Like as a kid,

I'll be honest with you, that really affected me. That really was like, it kind of changed, like, this sounds stupid, but it kind of changed everything, for me, at least,

very early on. And it destigmatized in a lot of ways, like at the end, when he runs back and he's reunited with his family. And it's just, yeah, there's just like a, there's a normalization there.

There's a love and there's a sense of humanity. The movie was really important for that, for me, like, as a kid. That's just, you know, so I think it was groundbreaking, like, in that sense. I'm not saying that it led to the, it led to like a sort of a sea change of people's attitudes around how they view different types of people. and different types of life experiences. But I think it meant something. And to me, it really, really did. I thought his performance was amazing.

And obviously he's a top flight performer, you know? Something that Mal and I have talked a lot about a lot in our coverage of these various, like, and or in Rings of Powers, this idea of the importance of, like, being in the community that is under threat for a while to understand what you're defending. And I had just forgotten, like, how much time we spend with the, the new ones, like, in their, in their, in their, at the festival and like everything. It's a lot longer than I had remembered. And sorry, no one. No one is how you pronounce it.

And like just to see that entire community thriving. And I also love that Willow is a dad and a husband. Like usually this Caldo Adventure happens to like a Luke Skywalker. You know what I mean? But like the fact that he's like comes home to his kids, his wife, I cry every time. Kya cuts off her braid and gives it to him. Very sweet. My God.

God. Very, very touching. I wish I could call my mom in here. So she's at the end of the, like when she does that, then at the end of the movie, it's just, they almost, they almost collide into one another. Yeah. It's just so beautiful, man.

Mal, you want to talk about Willow? That's, Warwick. That part is just very pure. Yeah, I mean, he's a legend. And what an incredible, iconic role. I loved Joe, like you're saying, seeing the community. and understanding like the inner workings and the traditions and the customs inside of this community.

And one of the things that I really loved and thought was very clever and important is that Willow is not from the minute the film starts only trying to convince the Dakinis that he can do magic. He's trying to convince people all around him, other Nellans, right? And the fact that he is like, to Van's point, eager and desirous of this adventure and of the magic and wants to be a sorcerer and can't wait to go for the trial. And that moment where that moment where Hyaldwin asked him after, like, why did you hesitate? And he knows that Willow knew that the right answer was like my own finger. That was just a great little moment.

And I thought really captured like the theme of the story well, like believe. in yourself, trusting yourself, but also finding people who can help you do exactly that and unlock something for you about that possibility that is out there in the world, but also within, wonderful. The hero's journey mapping is very interesting in that respect, too, because, like, if you think about something like a traditional refusal of the call, yeah, the refusal comes when Willow has to consider the threat to his family. Like what threat does this baby pose, et cetera? And what does it mean if I go out into the world?

Am I leaving behind the people that I love? Will they be at risk? But he's really eager for the quest within that. And those two ideas exist in harmony with each other, which feels very true to life. So I thought that that was really cool. I loved that. Just a wonderful character.

And I'm so interested to see what the rest of his, life was like. It's amazing to me that there wasn't a sequel sooner than this. And it was, it was, I was fascinated to, like, read up a little bit on how long they've been talking about. Yeah. Doing a sequel or developing a show, which of course makes sense. But like, yeah, you would want to know. You would want to know what the rest of this character's life was like and, like, what happened with his family. And that was the other thing I was really thinking about, Joe, to your point about, like, he's got a wife, he's got kids. I can't tell you how much I loved that because on the one hand, very few things I adore as much as a quintessential coming of a video.

page tale. Like an incredibly important part of my life as a reader and a viewer. But your Hogwarts letter arrives when you're 11. And if it doesn't arrive, that's that. Like, the idea that you could live your life and it would never be too late to discover that you could enjoy one of these adventures too, that you could wave the wand and that blue glow would come out of it was just like a really, a really cool thing. So now I'm committing anew to becoming a sorcerer. That's really what I wanted to share with you. I cannot wait for this journey for you. On the Lord of the Rings mapping front, I will say the only character that does not come

out super well for me in that mapping processes, Migos, who is like our pseudo-Sam because he leaves Willow so quickly and like, Willow tells him to go. But like, I was like, Mugosh, you are, Sam would never. Where was his? But I can carry you. But I like that about Mugash though. Where he's like, okay, I'm not going to. M gosh is like, I'm not burgle cut, but I'm also not, I do not want an adventure.

That's the other thing, these names. Names are federal cut. My goodness. It was interesting to look at like IMDB after watching the movie and see how many of the names that I thought were first and last names were really just one name. Like I'm like, why do they keep referring to my guy mad by his full name, Mad Mardigan? I assumed Martigan was his last name. Mr. Martin. Mr. Martin.

Fancy meeting you here at the Crossroads. Yeah, that was wonderful. But the Lord of the Rings is the Galadriel. Just Galadryl here. She is in the middle of Willow Joe. It's true. I think that if Willow was made today, this original movie,

that a lot of people would have had a problem with Willow leaving his family to go for this adventure. I think that this would be a trending topic on Twitter. Willow. Wow. Like, is Willow selfish? Willow got a wife and kids. But look, he's going off on an adventure and stuff.

You know what I mean? It's like it would have been to his Willow toxic would have been a whole situation. But then it was like his age, you understood that everybody had their own thing. You had to go out there and find it. I think like as a kid, like watching the movie. And I got me honest with you. Like a lot of part, like, this movie is a large point of what shaped my expectations for a fantasy movie. Like, like, really, this is early, early fantasy for me.

I'm trying to think what would be earlier than this, because I'm eight when this comes out, I see it that same year. So I'm trying to think what would be earlier for me in terms of just straight up fantasy, unless you're talking about the Wizard of Oz or the, Whiz, which I don't know if you guys know it's a black version of the Wizard of Oz. I don't know if you've heard of it. Have you ever heard of the Wiz before? Yeah, I have heard of the Wiz. So, you know, for like, and obviously Star Wars is in there too. So for me, it's like...

Were you a Dark Crystal guy? I did. Yeah. I did. I did. All fucked up puppets I watched. Yeah, me too. Dark Crystal is also scary 80s fantasy.

Scary 80s fantasy. Yeah. You guys used to watch The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe, the animated film. Oh, no, not the animated. There was like a BBC miniseries that I watched. There was an English one. It was an English one that I watched. I used to watch the animated one all the time when I was a kid.

And, man, this will appal you, but I used to be, I used to think the Turkish delight looked so delicious. Oh, no. It's disgusting. It's terrible. It's disgusting. So wonderful. Yeah.

You know what I've seen that? They made us watch the BBC one. They made us watch that in Sunday school. Oh, interesting. They're like, what if Jesus were a line? And let's show you. How? It's about Jesus.

I know. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So they turned in like, hey, if you guys want to watch something like that, we got something to come straight from the gospel. Then we would watch it. Yeah. I wasn't really fucking with it like that.

I got to be honest with you. In that, like, version that I'm pretty sure that Van Watch that I also watched, the little girl who played Lucy Peveveveveve. had like all the teeth in her head. And she would like be like, I plan. And you're like Lucy.

My goodness. We watch that. We watch Voyage of the Mimi, which is not fantasy. But I don't, you guys remember Voyage of the Mimi on. And then just watch it and then check out. They go do whatever church people do.

Speaking of watching Willow through the lens of like trending topics on Twitter, something that was pointed out to me by someone I watched it with on Thanksgiving was like, I just didn't notice how many women are in, you know, if you want to talk about a Tolkien comp, Tolkien was really bad at putting women in his stories. But you've got Fin Rizel, Queen Babmorta, Sorsha, Shereldia, a Lord Dan and herself, you know what I mean? Oh, baby. Yeah, there's just like a ton of women running around. The fact of the final showdown, like Val's down there with his stupid armor and his sword or whatever.

Eric is dying because some. one has to die and Eric, I guess, is kind of enough of a main character to do so. But the final showdown is Willow and three women and a baby in a room with rain in it. And I'm just like, that's that rules. And like... Sounds like a sitcom when you describe it that way. Willow three women and a baby and a pizza place. I would watch the bad Mardigan Eric prequel too.

Oh, yeah. For sure. All of the shenanians, like, what did they get up? up to. They clearly have a rich and rivaled history and I want to know all of it. All of it. I love that. I love when Eric rolls up and he's like, no, I'm not letting you go out of this cage. And there's just like all that history

there and you don't get to know it. But he's just like, no. Uh-uh. That's your, that's your Han Solo Lando sort of sort of relationship. I never liked, I never liked Eric. You got to let your homie out of the thing. Like,

you said rock. Like, I got never liked Eric. It's a tough, tough moment for Eric. That's a tough moment for Eric. And knowing it also makes me wonder about the prequel. I never even thought about that prequel. That prequel would be awesome. It makes me wonder about

how they went sour that he would leave him there, knowing how deadly he is with the sword and that he could help them. He must have Matt Marnigan must have really have not been shit in like a real, real way. But enough affection there that later in the cellar when Eric's just full on gaslighting him and is like, actually,

I did you a favor. Let me tell you how I saved your life my good lifelong pal Mad Mardigan. My guy, Mr. Mardigan is like, okay. Sir Mardigan, Lord Mardigan. The House of Mardigan. Mad Mardigan of the East Hampshire Mardigan. What would Matt Mardigan's family crest be? Like a throbbing erection.

A tanger of mead. Black root? Is that a... You may Van take his headphones off. That's how good you got him with that. He's still not recovered. I feel like he has not spent enough time podcasting with you. That's...

What? Um... Oh, like crossed two of them crossed? Yeah. Like swords? Yeah. Oh, my Lord. Sorsha.

Who is, yeah, like a Princess Leia, Aowen sort of vibe. Val married her. They were married for like eight or nine years. Yeah, she was Joanne Wally Kilmer for a long time until she wasn't. And his two kids are, he has two kids with her. But yeah, so I always felt like they're, you know, like it's like watching Mr. Mrs. Smith with Angelina Jolene and Brad Pitt. And you're like, these two definitely actually,

definitely, definitely, want to fuck her our fucking right now. 100%. So when she's like, let me throw away my entire legacy and fuck my mom for you, fuck my mom over for you. You're like, yes, I get it. So shit.

Yeah, that's a little thin. That's a little thin on a rewatch. At least we had the helpful line at the beginning telling us that she would betray her mother turned cloak. Yeah, and Bob Morta's like, never. And you're like, mm, Bob Morta.

You look great and it. journal neck, but I think you're wrong. And then last but not least, let me just say, I don't know how they play now, but in 1988, when I was a child, the brownies were like the height of comedy for me. So funny. Early Kevin Pollock role. My dude, Moish Maisel crushing it in Willow. Yeah.

They're doing like, I guess, like a almost like a Canadian French fur trapper sort of energy is what they're going for, I think, because their names are rule in frangine, like, and that's kind of the accent that they have and they're like wearing all these furs. So yeah, my friends and I used to run around quoting the brownies all the time. It was like our most quotable guys. And I think the brownies really kept Willow alive

in our imagination for a long time because we loved those things. They were in many ways, I don't want to say the most. I don't know. In my house, they were maybe the most memorable thing like about the movie. Yeah. Little scamps.

Mary Pippin. Yeah. That were pests. But then in some way, like, helped out in the end. It was just so interesting to see, to like see them. And like when I would talk about it, like, even when my dad, my dad would be like, what's the movie with the little man? You know what I mean?

It would be willow. Well, because they were essentially like, you know, fucking pests. They're like insects, termites almost. Yeah. Well, when they show up when Madame Mardigan is disguising himself as a woman, so as not to anger. Lug. Lug. Brownies.

I hate brownies. Crawling with them. Crawling with brownies. This is crawling with brownies. Lug. On top of the brownies, I think the line that my sister says to me the most from this movie is a lug line when he goes, not a woman. gentlemen meat luck um yeah this is a movie for kids and like the thing that separates it from

the heights of lord the rings or star wars i would say is that there's a beautiful adventure story here this is one of my most cherished movies there aren't uh the high all one has like a few things he says but in terms of like uh an obiwan or a gandall figure you don't have someone sitting you down and really like talking about you know in beautiful long quotes that mallow you can read through tears on a podcast like Like, you know, moments of like, this is what this adventure means or this is the state of the world and stuff like that. And so I think it's missing that extra layer of like depth to it, if that makes sense. Yeah, this movie actually, and I'm not meaning to, to like, dis, my to Tolkien people.

I love you guys. You guys are like my cousins. I'm not one of you, but I'm related. This movie takes a save way less seriously. It just doesn't take itself as seriously as some of the stuff. And those, like, even, like, does this movie take itself as seriously as the Star Wars prequels? Star Wars itself? This is a little bit of a lighter touch.

Yeah. You know what I mean? And, like, for that, in many ways, that's what makes it so digestible. It's not like there are no stakes. Of course, there are stakes. But the evil doesn't seem quite as evil. And it doesn't seem like it's absolutely. as life or death, even though it is.

You know, so it is a little bit more for kids. But when I'm watching it, I don't have to get into long spells where I am like about to cry and stuff like that. All the tears here are, they're good tears, they're fun tears, they're happy tears. But sometimes when I'm watching, though I know you love the Lord of the Rings, sometimes I'm like, God damn, I just want them to win. Just please let them win in the movie now. like Sam and Frodo are just, they're never going to find it.

Like, it seems like at some point, they do. Spoilers all of the rings. They do. They do. It's like, can they just stop and start their own relationship and, like, go away from all of this? It's so much. It's a commitment.

And this is less so of that. Gotta keep working through hardship after hardship until you can no longer recall the taste of food or the touch of grass. I have to keep going. And maybe we'll get that from the Willow TV series. I'm excited to... Oh, I think it's going to... And by the way, I think you will.

I think Willow... I think they understand that there's a lot more fertile ground there to do high-concept, really serious fantasy. I think the tone here... Obviously, you know, Warwick is going to be in this comedy bag. That's what he likes to do, especially now. He's a very, very funny man. But I think they are going to really make a play

with maintaining some of the same stuff that they have from the movie, but I think they're going to take it in a lot more serious, a lot more grander of a way. I think they will. That's what I was interested to ask you both as lifelong Willow fans. Like, what are you most hoping to see in this show?

What are you looking forward to the most? What are you most hoping that the show captures about the essence of the thing you love about the world and the story? Thank you for asking, Mallory. I appreciate the question. I just, I wanted to feel like, in the same spirit.

Like, I was thinking a lot yesterday, actually, about a lot of the kind of squandered IP efforts that we've seen this year. Like, Tocca Maverick, obviously is like the example of, like,

the best version of, like, what you can do, right, bringing a cast back. But if you think of stuff like hocus, pocus two or whatever, that just doesn't even feel like it exists at this point anymore, you know what I mean?

There's just like a few things that happened where I'm like, why did you bring Laura Dern and Jeff Goldblum and Sam? I'm kneel back for a Jurassic Park movie that no one is talking about anymore. You know, like, why was, why was this a story you just said? So I want this to feel worth it. Like, it's been so long.

They've wanted to do it for so long. I want to spend more time in this world, but I want it to feel like of a piece. And like, it matters that Warwick is here. You know, Joanne Wally, plays Sorcia. She's going to be in it. I don't think she has, like, huge role, but she's in it. You know, like, it matters that these people are here, plus this new generation. It's also really interesting to me, there's just something in the world.

water about Willow in the last couple years because like if you watch shows like reservation dogs where there's a character named Alora Daman, you know, they have like Willow jokes about it. Yeah. Or if you watch The Green Knight, the David Lowry film, like it starts with Dev Patel riding on a horse past the crossroads where Mad Marr-I was like, I asked him, I was like, was that inspired by Willow? He's like, yes, 100%.

That's Mad Margin's Cage that he is like, you know, so it's like, you know, so it's like, It went to the people that it hit, it really hit. And that generation is now growing up and making stories and stuff like that. So like I think that I don't know that I fully answered your question, but I think in part answer your question. I just wanted to feel worth it. Van, how do you feel about it? You nailed it at the end. I wanted to feel worth it.

I think there was always, obviously there's fertile ground because we got so little of the world. You know, all we got was the movie. I always wanted Willow to be a bigger thing than what it was. Yeah. I wanted everyone to have seen Willow. I wanted everyone to have been able to talk about Willow with me. I talked about it with the people in my family. It just,

it seemed like something that came and then went, but it was such a huge part of like my movie watching childhood that I was like, oh, I want more. And at that point, you don't know anything about the business of Hollywood, so you don't know why they didn't make a sequel. Like, you have no clue. Like, to you, it was this big, huge deal. And you're like, well, there should be two of those.

should be three willows. I certainly didn't know that he was only 18 when they made the movie. So we could be on like willow number nine. So I want to see if there's, if the ground is as fertile as I think it is. If like to Joe's point, if we're going back and we're doing an IP money grab,

or if we are actually expanding the world and bringing some of that wonder to like a new generation, I think that that would be like so fulfilling for me. because they made Hocus Pocus too, and I'm sure that that was dope for a lot of people. I don't really, you know, I don't... I don't think it was. I don't think people wound up caring,

and they were just sort of like, they were excited about it, and then it happened, and it didn't feel like it happened at all, because people were like, this was, this was either bad or just fine. And I don't want it to be bad or fine.

You're right. I want it to be fucking great. That's how I feel about this. So, Mallory, the answer to the question is, I want it to be good. I love it. And I love that. Like the cast I'm really excited for.

Like Aaron Kellerman, who I love. She's great. She's great. Tony Reveloree, the lobby boy from Grand Food Fest Hotel or Flash from the Spider-Man movies. And then Christian Slater walked out at D-23. Van and I, by the way, at D-23 were like the loudest screamers in the room for Willow. By the way.

It was like... It was the best thing they showed. It was like tepid response and then two older people on the left in the middle, Banda Joanna just being like, whew! I love it, but besides Andor and the half hour of Avatar, of Avatar. So there's a half hour of Avatar. And so I thought Willow was the best thing. Like literally, the Avatar was the preview that would never end.

I can't wait to have a conversation about that because I'm still one of like the most peculiar things that's ever happened to me. At D23, Christian Slater walks out. And my sense is that Christian Slater's probably going to be in like an episode, right? He's not like a main character. He's going to be like kind of barely.

I don't know if that's true. Really? Because I think he's taken, I think he's, I was led to believe that obviously for all the sad real world reasons, Matt Margin's character can't come back. but they he's like a friend of Mad Margin or the cousin of Mad Margin or something. He's like Mad Margin's friend. Yeah.

Yeah. So I was maybe I'm wrong, but I thought he might have more of a significant role in it than what I thought. Maybe I'm wrong. I think just the way, I mean, maybe in a future season, I think just the way the casting is listed, he's sort of like way down the cast list. That being said, if he is in more, I'd be delighted. But as in terms of like that, do they understand the vibe?

I think putting Christian Slater in, if Val can't be here, putting Christian Slater in as sort of like a Val Kilmer-esque presence, hits exactly the right note for me. I was like, I mean, yeah, it's Will Scarlet from Prince of Theeom, sure. Will Scarlet. You mother left me for the boy and he loves. I'm your brother. I have a brother. Christian Slater's a little bit of a bitch and Robin and Prince of Thieves, we've never seen him. A little bit of a bitch?

way on. He's a little bit of a bitch. He is one of the biggest bitches in movie history in that movie's fucking despicable. You know what I mean? But yeah, and I think what they're tapping in

in terms of like expanding the you've got like, I don't know, like 12 main characters I think. So of course they're obviously like going for a little bit of the like Game of Thrones sprawl around the map because you've got these a bunch of little groups.

But also it reminds me a lot of like, you know, there's that D&D movie coming next year that, you know, Mallory, I'm really excited about. But like it looks like a D&D sort of campaign. You've got these various adventurers. So I don't know. Steve, how is plotting the Ringervverse D&D campaign going? It's literally my Christmas project to start writing that campaign. Okay. Amazing.

Van, are you going to play D&D with us? Okay, I will. The whole family's playing. I'm going to play. But I just want you guys to know that like it takes a, it takes a lot for me to play it because I grew up on the Christian stuff that told me that it was of the devil. I'm serious. Man, I've got some materials that you're going to be in.

What if Steve puts a Jesus lion in it? What if Aisland is in our campaign? Then it's okay, right? I'm with that, right? You know what I mean? But like it was, it was like. Aslan, Turkish Shalait and Santa will be there. There are certain things that just like make me have this reaction.

Like, Twisted Sister was so evil. You know, like Twisted Sister is the devil. You remember that? And I was like, oh, I want to see Twistice D. Snyder, I get scared. I'm like, oh. So I'll play D&D with you guys. Just I'll be wearing my cross under my clothes. Make sure that it doesn't happen to me.

All right. So that's, I mean, that's basically it. That's Willow. It's as good as Van and I remember. Mallory liked it. I was really worried she might be like, but I've already seen Lord of the Rings. But she didn't. She enjoyed it.

So that made me really happy. Do we leave out anyone? Is there anyone that deserves more talk? in the willow What about Von Kar who's like the warrior Nalwen? I just want to shout him out really quickly.

He takes down one of those demon dogs of the spears that are hoisted over his head The black curly hair? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I like him. I like the fact that they had their own shit. They got their own fucking need you guys.

They got their own wizards, their own warriors. They do their own thing. Yeah, you know what I mean? Exactly. Their own weird seed monitoring system. Where did you get them? Seeds, Bergel Cut wants to know.

I guess I will give one last shout out to Pat Roach, who is like very famously in the three Indiana Jones films and plays Kale with the gent... Were you thinking of a rattleshirt when you saw Kale in Willow? Strong Lord of Bones.

Yeah, Lord of Bones vibes. Yeah, absolutely. I was. I was indeed. The only other thing I wanted to mention is just a movie you that realize pretty heavily on zooming in for a close-up shot of a baby's face. It has to be a baby that's just nailing those facial expressions. That's the best baby actor that's ever existed. It's so cute.

Yeah. Remarkable. Yeah. If you needed a smile, you got it. If you needed an inquisitive look, you got it. A little curl. Wonderful. Like, raise an eyebrow.

That is one of the best. It has to be twins, right? Is it twins? I think by law it was twins. Yeah. That's another 80s thing that I miss seeing kid actors, but it's two of them in the credits. Oh, and Ghostbusters 2. Ghostbusters 2, the little baby.

Two babies play Oscar. Two babies play Oscar and show you what you are. Allora Dan is played by three babies. Kate and Ruth Greenfield and Rebecca Berman are Allora Danin. Wait, wait, hold on. I don't know. You can see there are a couple shots where the face looks a little different. But there must have like a third like stunt baby

You know like the twins for the face shots And then like the third baby for like I'll be real with y'all Y'all not mad enough about that That's racist Just saying that all white babies To play the same role If they did that in a movie

If there was twin black babies And then they just put another black baby And I would be fucking living You know what I have an important question for my apprentice in wig watchery, Mallory Rubin. Obviously, the Mad Mardigan wig is top tier. The source of wig is also top tier. Yeah.

Like, these are great wigs. Yeah, wonderful. Do you think Allura Dannen is wearing a little ginger hairpiece? Oh, boy. I don't know the answer to that question. It's a great question. I'm going to say that the reason the baby was cast was because of the natural curls. I mean, they're incredible.

Yeah. But she's like swaddled the whole time. So like they could have just put a little a little wiglet and then swaddled her. Attaching it to the even perhaps to like the burlap sack that that's carrying her in. Correct. When she like Moseses her way down the river to Willow and his kids. Anyway. I shouldn't be smirch it by calling it a burlap sack.

There's that nice like almost it's like they took Tim Riggins's jacket. It's like a nice shearling sweet. Yeah. turned it into a like a little carrie over there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

That's Willow. I think we did it. Great stuff. Also, I mean, like, one last thing. Obviously shot on location. I think they were in Wales for most of the movie.

So like it's just one of those things where it like, it looks great. Like especially the whole snow sequence. Snow under bright blue sky is an underrated, you know, setting for a sequence. So all this stuff that happens

and that sequence is really cool. So among your, people there, Joe. The Welsh. A daughter of Wales. Yeah, it's true. It's just Michael Sheen and me. You're from, you're from Wales?

Yeah. Oh, really? Look at that. Gareth Bail. It's the only thing I know about Wales. They're all named Gareth. The whole Gareth? Every Welsh person is named Gareth.

Did you watch Wales? Whoa! How far are you? I was going to ask Joe if she watched Wales, uh, no, but I watched. In the World Cup.

I watched England, USA. You did. I did. I watched that whole game. Nobody scored anyway. But I am... That's a big win for us. I'm given to understand that that is a win for America.

It's a big win for us. Yeah, exactly. Wait, are you saying? How far are you in the crown? So I just watched the episode. Or Charles goes to Wales? No. I thought that's why you were saying it.

I just watched the episode where my home boy, the valet passes away. after, you know, he set up, they set up the New Castle or whatever. That's my favorite episode this season. Yeah, where, like, he, uh, the valet guy. Yeah. And he worked for them in the past. And now he works for Muhammad Al-Fa-Had.

Muhammad Al-Fa-ed. And then he, they, they try to get the queen, but she sends her emissary. And then he's coughing the whole episode. And I'm like, yo, man, what the fuck is going on? Like, don't tell me something's about to happen. And then as soon as the queen disses them, By the way, I'm not trying to speak ill because this is a real person that really died.

They're not doing the queen very many favors in this show, man. Like, she's not, they're not doing the queen very many favors in this show. It's hard to like the queen. And I've seen other, I've watched everything that she went through when she came up. I know we're not going to get another crown podcast. But it's hard to like the queen watching the crown. I'm just being honest. Would you rather, if you had to pick one monarch,

would you rather Queen Bab Morda who seems scary but fun for Queen Elizabeth? It's going to be my Morda. Let me tell you why. Because she can do tricks. And so it's going to be down for people who are down. But if I'm hanging out with her,

she's going to be turning people into squirrels. Into rocks, putting them in the rocks. You know what I mean? So, you know, I want all the way evil. Anyway, but we got a lot. We should just do it. We should just do a podcast called shows. Or we just sit around and like somebody goes, okay, cool, but have you watch this?

And then we just discuss it. Just podcast called shows. Anyway, all right. The whole pot is free association where like a thing somebody said about one show makes you think of another show. And then we talk about that for a few minutes. And then it just keeps going. And then you have an episode. Yeah.

Both Mallory and Steve and Arjuna asked me if there was an outline today. And I said, no, vibes only. And that's how we ended up talking about the crowd. Are you proud of me that I watched the World Cup game, Mallory event, the whole thing? I am. I'm thrilled. Did I take a short nap? I did.

But other than that, I watched it. And I plan to watch more. I love the World Cup, actually. I like playoffs, you know, tournament sports. What? I can't watch a full season, but when we get to like the World Series, like the playoffs, then I get invested. Oh, no, I get that. The thing that's hard for me is watching the World Cup is that like the guy,

you know, those guys are too good looking, man, to play a sport. Like the soccer guys is just like, you know, I'm a big slub. Wonderful. It's like the soccer guys, it's like they're too. They go, they're all, I don't know, it's like there's not, there's no gruffness. You know, you don't see any guys that, where are you from? I'm from Opalaka. You know, I'm just gruff.

I'm here because I'm just gruff. These guys look like... There's a lot of headbands. The headbands. It's headband heavy ear. Their hair is impeccable. It just makes you feel like they're living a lifestyle that you can't even get near. And then they are.

Well, they're incredibly rich, famous, gifted and handsome global stars. So, yeah. It's like, it's just. This feels, but the NBA guys, the last thing I'll say, the NBA guys is like, I know these motherfuckers. I see them around. I know. I know where they come from. These soccer guys seem like they're from another planet.

All of this pretty boy running up and down, kicking the ball and shit. Can I tell you one sports bit of trivia that I was pleased to get correct, Mallory? Absolutely. And Van also. We were talking about David. What do you do with a footballer when he's no longer a football? right? And my friends were talking

about David Beckham and what he's up to. And then he just, like, created a league or bought a league in Miami, whatever. He has a Miami League. And I said,

are the colors pink and turquoise? And guess what? They are. Yeah. Miami Vice Colors on David Beckham's team. South Beach Colorway.

Always. Absolutely. So there we go. Sorry, is it not Miami? Anyway. Anyway, so that's been our

Willow slash the crown slash World Cup slash Mallory kills Van with just one mere throbbing erection joke I dare you to come on a house of our full two and a half hour podcast today I was just saying I just came out of nowhere dog

That's how it always comes With Mallory phrasing How it always comes Right yeah All right so Van and I went back on Wednesday to talk about Willow The TV show Can't wait

Thank you all too I know I heard from a ton of people who watched Willow for the first time just because I begged them to. And that makes me thrilled, beyond happy. Thanks to Mallory and Van, of course. Thanks to Arjuna, Markpul, for his production work and for just letting me fucking do this. Thank you, Arjuna. You're a king. To the great Steve Alman for making something that resembles a sensical podcast out of this.

I appreciate you. And to show me a dinner on for indulging me with hopefully at least one Willow Giff on the socials this week. And we'll be back on Wednesday and it's never too late Mallory to become a magician. What's the difference between butter and butter made from real California dairy? It's the real California farm families behind it. Real people, real care, real intention. Why? Because real matters. So whether you're pouring milk, melting with you're pouring milk, melting with you

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