The Ringer-Verse - Robert Kirkman and Cody Ziglar at Comic-Con 2026 | The Midnight Boys

Episode Date: August 6, 2026

The Boys are back, and they’re giving you some San Diego Comic-Con 2026 exclusive content! They first sit down with ‘The Walking Dead’ and ‘Invincible’ creator, Robert Kirkman. Then they speak to writer Cody Ziglar, who worked on projects like ‘Futurama’, ‘She-Hulk: Attorney at Law’, and on the Miles Morales: Spider-Man comic books. (1:45) Interview with Robert Kirkman (30:36) Interview Cody Ziglar Hosts: Van Lathan, Charles Holmes Guests: Robert Kirkman and Cody Ziglar Producers: Jamie Yukich, Aleya Zenieris, and Carlos Chiriboga Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopowell SUPER TROOPERS 3, only in theaters August 7. Get tickets MEOW! https://www.searchlightpictures.com/super-troopers-3#get-tickets Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

All right, y'all, welcome into the Ringerverse. We are so excited. We've just gotten back from San Diego Comic-Con. Obviously, you've heard us break down all the Marvel news. But while we were there, we had some phenomenal interviews. First up for y'all, this is an olive branch to all the Invincible fans out there. We got to talk to the legendary Robert Kirkman. Van and I talk about everything from the success of the show, his new comments, and

Thrag. So please, guys, Invincible fans, this is for y'all. We love y'all. Next year, we want to cover Mueller Invincible, so we're going to talk to Robert Kirkman. And then after that, we talked to Cody Ziegler, amazing, amazing guest. He has been announced as the new writer on the Static Shock series. So Vin and I get into everything from like why Static is a dream book for him. And also some of his work as a TV writer on stuff like She-Hulk, Futurama, Rek and Morty.

Yeah, guys, enjoy some of the content we made for you at San Diego Comic Con. This episode of the Ring ofverse is presented by Searchlight Pictures. More than ever, America needs a laugh. Enter Super Troopers to the rescue. The cult comedy classic returns with the most offensive installment yet with Super Troopers 3. A debauchous bachelor party, an over-the-top wedding, and a dangerous drug smuggling ring, all threaten the troops' future. Fill your leader of Cola and roll up to the multiplex for Super Troopers 3.

Meow playing only in theaters. Get tickets. Miao. All right, yo, y'all, we are joined here by the legend Robert Kirkman. Dog, how are you doing? Doing great. I've been into comics all my life. You have kind of become the mayor of Comic-Con.

I feel like, what is your San Diego experience? Like, how many hands you shake in, how many retailers you're talking to? What's it like? I don't often put my hands this close to my face. Because I am shaking a lot of hands and, you know, I don't want to get sick. But yeah, no, it's great. You know, you walk around. People are very nice and kind.

And, you know, every now and then people are like hounding me or chasing me or something. But it's part of the fun. It's something I enjoy. What do you feel like? My favorite thing? My favorite thing is I'm walking through a hallway. And somebody goes, hey, are you that guy? I don't know, man.

You tell me. And I keep walking. And then they're like, and then every down then they'll Google something. And they'll find me. And then I'll chase me down. I'll be like, you just didn't know. Is it? Is it weird for you to be at?

the peak of Invincible now. I remember when I was buying the floppy versions, both Walking Dead and Invincible, when Walking Dead was like taking off like a rocket to my friends, I was like, no, but Invincible's the real one. They're like, what? I will talk about this, so Walking Dead blew up.

Yeah, I mean, there is an aspect of Walking Dead blew up, and I was like, but Invincible's cool too, and no one cared. And then, and I went to Comic Con. I've been going to Comic Con. I've been going to Comic Con since 2001. So, Walking Dead really blows up. 2009, 2010, 2011, around in there.

And so I can't walk anywhere. People are, you know, hassling me anywhere I go. I can't look at the Transformers booth. I can't buy my indie comics, you know. Then, you know, a few years into Walking Dead. And I'm like, oh. Oh, you want it. Oh, this is what happens.

I am significantly less popular. Like, people still see me. People still, but it's not the same. There's a noticeable difference. And I was like, all right. This is kind of cool. I actually liked it because I can get around more, you know. It's also a little sad.

It's like, oh, if I lost my mojo, is it over for me? Am I done? But then now Invincible is going and it's like, oh, it's back. Oh, no. What is it like to have your name associated with the stamp of approval for a lore, right? Because to have one lore is one thing. A lot of people have one. Sure.

But then to re-up and have people dive into another world that you've created, now you kind of become like one above all in the sense, right? So the people are looking at you is like you're making different universes. Sure, sure. So to be in that situation now, like what is that like? I mean, it's a lot of pressure and it's pressure that I take seriously. There's a fan base for Walking Dead and Invincible that existed before they really blew up. And they blew up because of that fan base.

And so when I'm in the writer's room on Invincible, when I'm approving cuts, when I'm, you know, working with the voice actors, like I am making sure that I provide an authentic experience to those fans. So they feel like the material that they loved, that they've, you know, supported for as many years as they have is being treated with respect and that their commitment to it is being honored. And so it is something that I spend, you know, a lot of time, like making sure that I'm doing right. Is it wow to you that as someone I was reading Invincible Month? or sometimes, you know, y'all was taking breaks. Like, right, y'all, y'all needed time. I was in the trenches. I was like, damn, it was supposed to come out.

I was arguing my comic bookshop order. Is it weird now that a different type of fit is bad at you? They're just like, when are we getting the next invincible season? Y'all, y'all take it too long. So you've had it both ways. Yeah, no, I mean, it never goes away. I mean, when we were doing Walking Good compendiums and they weren't all out, it takes 48 issues to do a compendium, which is four years worth of comics.

And so we did the first one, but we had. hadn't put enough comics out to do a second one. And everyone, they just don't get that. And so they're like, where's compendium two? Where's compendium two for like years? And then we finally put it out. And the day after it came out, they were like, where's compendium three? And it's like, oh my God, like, it's going to be another four years.

Like, we have to make this comic. And so that's kind of like the precursor to the William meme. Where's season five, William? Can we stay there? I want to ask you about something. Sure. And so, you know, there's a, you're in a lot of different. mediums. So you're on television now. You're in animation and live action, but in comic books,

there's no end. Like, there's, I mean, legitimately, I'm reading runs from new characters that I discovered when I was six years old. Right now, I'm 46 years old. So, you know, we keep waiting for Wins of Winter to be written and all of this stuff like that. But for you, there's a kind of infinite sort of creation that people are going to expect from you in some of these worlds. What is the pressure to create like? People continuously asking you for more, for more, for more, for more. I don't look at it that way. I don't look at it as like a pressure to create. I look at it as like a gift to be able to continue creating. An opportunity. Because early in my career, I would do a book and I'd have a good time and it would get canceled. And I wouldn't be able

to continue my story because I am very much a comic book person. I've been reading comics for as long as I can remember. And I love that continuing narrative that just keeps going without end. It's something that I just really enjoy writing. And so being able to now be in a position in my career where I can go, okay, I have this idea. I want to do it as a comic book. And how long do I want to do it? You know, like, that's a tremendous gift that the fan base has given me. And it's great working in television because the struggle of television is how do you make your story compelling to get people to come back episode after. episode. And in comics, you're doing that. But you have to deal with month-long gaps and you have to

deal with like very abbreviated page counts. And there's a lot of hurdles that you don't have to deal with in television. But they, they translate like very well. If we stay on that, what I find interesting is that you're one of the rare comic book creators where you've created characters and through your own fighting, through working with retailers, they've been given the chance to be out long enough, where now it's like, invincible goes from selling what, I think at one point it was like 12K

to now it's just like, you guys are on a six season. So what is, how do we get basically like an industry to support new heroes and new characters and give them the space where it's like you have your day one fans

and then you have fans that are there for five years, 10 years. I mean, that's the struggle. You know, if I knew how to fix that, you know, I'd be doing better. new ideas are very difficult to attract attention, especially now that, I mean, comic books has long been an industry where Superman was invented in the 30s and Spider-Man was invented in the 60s and there's 50 years of this character and 30 years of this character, and that

has crept into all media. Now there's never going to not be a new James Bond movie. There's never going to not be a New Lord of the Rings movie, and it's just everything just keeps going and keeps going, keeps going. And so any new idea always has to compete with all of these things that have built-in fan bases. And that's the struggle of everybody in the entertainment industry now. And we're all, you know, working to, you know, figure things out. But you've got things like weapons and obsession and backrooms that are, like, becoming, like, new franchises.

And there's a lot of new things in comics. There's this new image comic called Dork that's absolutely, like, setting the industry on fire. Yeah, you know. The Invincible sold 12,000 copies guy. Yeah. My bet. Hey, no, no, no, no. I'm just saying that is a level of knowledge that is impressive.

I'm now the Mark Grayson meme when I was reading the comments where you would always go into the comic shop. I'm like, oh, shit. I became this joke. What attracted you to Transformers, though? Like, because that is, obviously, this is the Transformers guy. What is it about Transformers where you're like, I have a take on this? I want to get my hands dirty. Yeah, I mean, you know, their vehicles are turning to robots.

Like, okay, great. You know, they had me from day one. So, yeah, and that was the sweet spot. I was just telling somebody earlier today, most comic book creators adore Spider-Man, and they adore Batman, and that's all they want to do. They just want to ride a long Spider-Man run or a long Batman run. Transformers on G.I. Joe, that's my stuff.

Like, I just love that stuff. And I don't know. It just hit me at the right time. I think I was, like, six in 1984. And so I was rushing home from school to watch afternoon cartoons. and if my bus was late, I would miss the first, like, eight minutes of the episode of G.I. Joe,

because G.I. Joe was airing before Transformers. And I mean, you don't know. These kids don't know now. Just being on the school bus and being like, oh, my God. Got to get home. Oh, my God. You know, sometimes there's like an accident or that something's going wrong.

Louisiana is very hectic. You get home and they're delivering the PSA and your evening is ruined. And you get home, you run home and it's like, and knowing is half the battle, and you're like, damn it! Here's the thing that people, my kids cannot wrap their heads around this, there was a chance you were never going to see that cartoon ever again

for the rest of your life. People do not understand that once the credit rolls, it disintegrates unless you're lucky enough for a rerun. There's no on-demand where you can go back and watch you. And they don't rerun every episode, they don't tell you when they're going to rerun them. Exactly. Yeah, that's the other thing. You'd come home and you'd get home on time. And you'd be like, all right, new GI Joe, and then it'd be a rerun.

You know, guys, like, I stay on that. Please do. We watched a lot of cartoons growing up in our era. I remember the Mr. T cartoon and all of that stuff. And these lores seemed expansive then. Yes. But compared to the lores that we have now, there is so much fertile ground to expand G.I. Joe

or to expand the Transformers. There's been a lot of work with the Transformers, a lot of stuff in G.I. Joe. How do you look at taking characters that have that kind of fundamental groundwork, but then still doing something new with them. When you do Invincible, it's all new, right? The archetypes might be the same, but it's all new.

When you do The Walking Dead, zombies, but a new way of doing it. How do you do Transformers or G.I. Joe in a new way? I mean, to a certain extent, by creating the Energeron universe and putting those characters together, we were in a sense doing something new because they hadn't ever really been integrated to that level, but they had been integrated before. so we weren't really doing anything new.

We were just like figuring out different ways to approach it and different ways to present it. And so like in the past, anytime they would combine Transformers and G.I. Joe, it would be an event. Right. And it would be like, here's every GIGO character and here's every Transformers character and they're all fighting this or doing that.

Or a post-credit scene. Or a post-credit scene. And it would be very, moving on, it would be very complex. And with the Indigent Universe, we were trying to like slow roll into the characters and start with just Duke. And there is no G.I. Joe yet. And that kind of was the novel approach that we had hit upon.

But you're right. Like we would sit around and go, okay, what we would do with G.I. Joe? What would do with Transformers? And you start doing research. And you're like, oh, that's been done. That's been done. That's been done. It's very difficult to find a lane with characters that have been explored as much as they have.

What do you see about those two lores? you know, coming together that make them right for contemporary storytelling now? I think one of the things that's the most special about those brands is the deep bench. They have explored those characters so much that you can, you know, Firefly. Okay. I could do a series on Firefly that ran 50 issues. And, you know, that guy's been, you know, here and there and wherever. But, you know, like there's so many Transformers that have, you know, so many, like,

to find characteristics and things that make them interesting. And it's just great. I mean, people talk all the time about Batman's Rokes Gallery versus Spider-Man's Rokes Gallery and look at all these great villains they have. But you look at Cobra? Yeah. I mean, good Lord. You got Storm Shadow.

You got Baroness. You got Cobra Commander. You got Destro. You got Firefly. You got Dr. Mindbender. Like, Zartan. You know, I'm forgetting a dozen, you know, cool, awesome. Is this epitans too?

Cool visuals. Decepticons have great villains. It's just a never-ending wealth of characters. So when we were looking at putting the energy on universe together, and it was just like, okay, like this is decades worth of stories that we could explore. Why do you think the 90s seem so back? You have a new comic terminal with Casey, Cuber,

you see everything that's happening in the absolute universe. That reminds, obviously, you are heavily involved from a business creative standpoint in image, but it seems like a lot of those, like the big muscles and the certain type of drawing, the stuff that I grew up on, is now back. Why do you think that is?

I mean, I think people are finally realizing how cool it is. Everything is cyclical, and I know that, you know, the reaction to the 90s, which were very artists driven, was to make comics that were very writer-driven. And comic book writers can tend,

you know, they can tend to be, like, somewhat intellectual you know, which tends to, like, lean towards, like, naval gazing and pretentious and slow. And, you know, there's a lot of artful comics out there that are very, like, historic and great and cool. But every now and then, you know, things just need to explode. And I think that, you know, it's gotten to a point where people are like, I would like to have a comic book where, like, knives and guns are flying at me at all times.

And people have crazy muscles and there's people busting through walls. And, you know, that's what you see in absolute bad. man, it's just absolute insanity at all times. And, you know, I think that's really appealing to people. It's funny, you mentioned that, like, my dad one time, he saw night crawler and he asked me about night crawling. So night crawler can transport. It was a hazy transport.

And I go, well, you know, he goes into another dimension. And then out of that dimension, he pops back into our world in a different place. And my father went, Superman was really strong. He goes, he was like, yeah. And I was like, but dad, do you know why? And he was like, why is Superman strong? He's from another planet. I'm like, I is strong because our earth, our son is young and his cells are drinking up the energy.

And I just remember blowing his mind with how intellectual, even the characters that he grew up on had to come through a bunch of different recons. So like, that was kind of what you were speaking to, the fact that he liked to see Superman pick up a building. and I was into the scientific reasoning as to why Superman is so strong. How do you deliver to a new generation of comic fan that's kind of raised on that? Well, I mean, I don't know. I'll just say like I am nothing if not a dumb guy.

And so I live by the Keep It Simple Stupid motto. And so yeah, I think simplicity always like wins the day. And so yeah, I think, you know, like it is interesting to think about like the basics of Superman and the evolutionist superheroes until you get to characters like Nightcrawler or like when they, I also have a pet peeve with comics where they're like

Cyclops's eye beams or his eyes are technically teleporters and he's teleporting an energy source from another dimension. He can't get hurt by his own beams and his brother can't hurt him. It's just like, hey man, he's got red lasers come out of his eyes. You don't have to do all this.

I don't know why you're doing this to me. That's part of the humor of Invincible though. Like, you would make certain jokes that were in reference to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How complicated you got. People, you know, people are like, oh, everybody in Invincible is strong and can fly or whatever. And it's like, yeah, I'm keeping it simple, you know? I want to ask you about somebody Inevincible.

Sure. All right. All right. Here we go. I want to ask you about one character in Inevincible. Oh, is this going to be bad? No, it's not bad. To set it up. Okay.

There's new generations of Invincible fans, and I will say there's a certain new subset that's been on our ass. Okay. So just to let you know, full disclosure, okay, we've covered all the seasons of Invincible. It's getting worse. Okay. We've covered all the seasons of Invincible. You'll enjoy this. Okay.

But this last season of Invincible, we didn't cover the show. Oh, okay. The fans. Now I'm mad. Go ahead. Look, you should be very happy. The fans destroyed us. It was, yeah.

The fans destroyed us, right? Sounds well deserved guys. Thank you. It'll never happen again. Okay. The fans destroyed us. But over time... Also, you set out season four?

It was... You saw the conquest fight and you were like, alright, well, you know... We don't need to see what happens next. See, this is us making friends because we're being honest, right? So the fans weren't... The fans weren't having it. The fans weren't having it.

And also, during this season, I got to be honest with you, just everybody was talking about the show. Everyone was talking about the show. And I fell in love with one specific character. Thrag. Great. Like, I kept seeing Thragg. I kept being around.

And every single time on the podcast, whatever show that we would bring up, I would just say it's Thrag and that. I was just like, it just wouldn't matter what it was. It would be like, Lord of the Rings, do they have Thrag? It's Thrag in this season. Thrag, Thrag, Thrac, Thrac, drag.

So my obsession with Thrag has me asking two questions about them. Number one, is Thrag Black? The Thrag has a fade, bro. Have you seen the hair? Have you seen the memes? Have you seen the memes? Have you seen the drag memes? Have you seen the thread where like Krieg is,

just giving him the fade. Yeah. It's like, I've seen that. So obviously. Who sent you these memes? Yeah, it's like. And I'm on the internet.

So drag got the Caesar. I'm not 60. Thrag got the Caesar. Okay. And Thrag got some swag with him. Or did you, did you code drag? So for us, just, you know. I mean, it certainly wasn't deliberate.

How do I navigate this? Yeah. I'm going to get in trouble. Help me. Like, you know what you just go? You go, hey, whatever you see in Thrag is the truth. That's what you see. You know, at the end of the day, whatever you see in Thrag, that's the truth.

Yeah. But seriously, this season seemed to be like one that was really, really important to the fans, action-packed. I have watched it. It was amazing. Thank you very much. No problem. What do you feel like the legs on Invincible on television art? In the future, I'm sure you could ask this all the time.

live action Invincible. Invincible trilogy movie. What are the legs on that lore? I mean, I'm very bullish on the legs on Invincible. I think the show is going to go for a good long while. You know, we're having a great time doing it. You know, I've already seen most of season five and, you know, we're very deep in the production on season six. And so, you know, I've got a pretty good idea of what's coming and I'm pretty excited. And I think the fan base is going to be excited. You know, where it goes from there is anybody's guess. You know, we are developing. a live action movie with Universal. We have been for a good long time. How's that going?

It's taking a long time because you can't come out with something that's not special. You can't come out with something that's not the best it can possibly be. So we're not rushing it. You know, the show is running its course and we don't want to do anything that detracts from the show or distracts from the show. So, you know, navigating those waters is very precarious. So like I say, we're taking our time with it. So I've rambled for a good 25 seconds without saying anything.

And I think I've talked about it. I have a follow up, though, because if you give us an invincible live action, we've seen some missteps in the superhero, like, marketplace. Where? Hey, bro. What are you talking about? I'm just, hey, I can see no mistakes. For years, bro.

I was on the blogs, okay? I know the history. Okay? So I just, when you are developing a live. early internet or the middle early, I don't know. Yeah, a long time ago, I'd say some stuff on me. Yeah, come on. So like when you're developing a live action invincible, how are you making sure that it feels special, that it doesn't just feel like another superhero movie that you just need to see because of superheroes, but it honors what came before by, but also shows something new.

Just make sure that it has like something unique about it, something that is different than other superhero movies, and also in some ways different from the animated series, something that just bring something new to the table, something new and exciting. I think that's what's missing in a lot of superhero movies these days. We've had them for 20-some-odd years now in this current, like, I think that the, you know, starting it with, you know, Iron Man and, you know, Marvel and stuff, like there was an elevation of superhero movies. It was like, finally, they're honoring the material and superhero movies got like way better than they had been previously, you know, sometimes. So, so yeah, but we've had that now for 20, 30 years.

And so you don't, it's not as exciting when there's a good superhero movie out because you've seen so many good superhero movies. You want it to be great. Right. You need something that's going to bring some extra, you know, also like people don't, like younger kids now, it's like when Samuel Jackson comes out at the end of that Iron Man movie. The very first Iron Man movie. Like, when you see the Avengers together for the first time on screen, it's like, oh, for sure. I've been waiting just for it. But even going back to just having Nick Fury walk into a room and talk to Iron Man,

you're just like, how's this possible? It's a fundamental moment. It's like, I never forget, like, I'm looking around. I indicted the rest of the row. Like, I'm in the movie, and it's fury. I'm like, oh, my God. And they're going, what? Like, people don't know.

Yeah. And I'm like, and he goes, the adventures in this, I'm like, Jesus Christ. Yeah. Also, they went with Black Nick Fury, which as a kid, I was just. like, wait, this is not the ultimate. It was a phenomenal moment. And, you know, and in that moment, kind of I'll orient my question around this,

you can't do that as much anymore because it's been done so many times. So that feeling of newness and freshness that we got by, like, getting to these places we had never come. Like, Henry Cavill's Superman could show up in the after credit sequence of Spider-Man brand new day and be like, hey, I need your help fighting Dark Side. And the audience would be like, okay,

I guess we're getting Superman the next movie. Spatman Superman crossover. You know what I mean? Cool. I guess that's happening. So like what do you, since the feeling of freshness and newness is gone and it's not going to return for at least a half a generation, what do you replace it with? Well, if I said that here, that would be bad for me.

But if I had it. But no, I mean, it's discovering that, you know, it's finding that trick or that thing. Or, you know, it could just be as simple as going back to making. like a really complex drama that lands on a lot of levels that just happens to be a superhero movie to kind of strip it down to its core, just finding a different way in or a different visual language or, you know, something special that stands out. I mean, you know, everybody's hard at work on this. Do you think the industry though will like take some of what's happening with The Invincible

show on Amazon or X-Men 97? When I was growing up as a kid, a lot of my on-ramp to these heroes was, I would watch the cartoon, I would beg my mom to go to the comic book shop, and then someone would be like, all right, here's the actual thing that it's based on. Do you feel like, because that's what's manga and anime? You get a manga, you get an anime. How does the U.S. market start being like, hey, we have so many stories. Give people different types of ramps to get on. I mean, that's part of it.

There's, I think that, you know, there's a certain level of success that Invincible has had because we are adapting the comic book so faithfully. because we are using that material so completely. And even to this day, as good as a lot of superhero movies are, they still have source material that is significantly better than the movie that it's supposedly based on. And that is a, I mean, it seems like it should be simple, but, you know, like figuring out a way to actually take the material that exist in comics

and bring it to the screen in a better and more authentic way, which, you know, we've gotten pretty close in a lot of movies. But yeah, I mean, if there was, you know, a new Marvel universe that was using some, you know, very historic comics and in more complete ways, maybe that would work. That's a question for me. You know, I'm flipping around the channels and I see Negan, Negan's on TV. Okay. Walking Dead is strong still. Walking Dead is going.

Walking Dead is a thing. I remember the first season of Walking Dead watching it, all those people are like, And Walking Dead City, season three launches, I think, next week. All those people are, like, legitimate movie stars now. Like, you have... I saw The Odyssey. There's like, there's like... There's like, it's legitimately been an incubator.

Like, how we found some of the defining stars of this era. How long can Walking Dead last on television? Forever. It's going on for... I don't know. We'll see. We'll see. Yeah.

I mean, it's had a good long run, and it doesn't seem to have lost too much steam. So, yeah, I mean, I think... Negan, complex, amazing character, especially, like, with how we first met him. Also, the way it's evolved in the television show with Jeffrey Dean Morgan in the portrayal, I think, is really remarkable and has taken it beyond the comics in some really cool and interesting ways.

When I read when you chopped off Rick's arm, like hand in the comics, I was a kid, I was like, you can't do that. I was like, fuck it. But my last question for you is, we're, our podcast, we argue a lot. We want to get your answer. best trilogies okay we got the dune trilogy about about to end this year we got lord of the rings

we got the original star wars what are some others these are cinematic truatic like we're trying to crown the best trilogy for robert kirkman we got spider verse coming spider verse when that one wraps up that'll be a i think that'll be a strong one dune is definitely a contender the first dune movies are absolutely spectacular and i got the privilege of watching the second one uh 70 millimeter imax with my kids next to me. They're 20 and 17 now, so they were probably, like, 18 and 15 when Dune 2 came out,

and I would just look over while we were watching the movie, and I could see in their faces, like they were just losing their minds. And I was like, oh, my God, this is their Star Wars. This is like, this, you know, pinnacle of cinematic achievement to them,

and we talked about it for hours after the movie. And so I could not be more excited for Dune 3, you know, which is co-written by Brian Kavon, which is super... exciting. Also doing Gundamah. I think he's been working on the live back.

He's very popular. I'm very jealous. But yeah, no, I think Dune is definitely a contender. It's tough. I obviously love the Star Wars trilogy, but I think for consistency,

you can't beat the Lord of the Rings trilogy. God damn. Wow, so we got one vote for that. Just one vote. No, no, no. They're killing us. I think Dune is about to be better. I think Dune very much has the potential

to be better. Yeah. Okay. But, I mean, completed trilogy already out. I mean, I don't know. I love those Lord of the Rings movies. I would watch those extended editions any day of the week. Yeah.

I wish they were seven hours long each. There's not enough Lord of the Rings in those movies. Wow. And last but not least, for the fans, when are we getting more Thrague? Season 5? We can't get it. We can't get no solo books. We can't get a little spin-off act.

You know, I don't know. We're busy on the Battle Beast book right now, and that's taken up. But you did get a little bit of Thrag in Battle Beast. He does make some cameo appearances. Actually, you'll get a little bit of Thrag coming up. I'll say that. Oh, okay. I'll say that.

He's coming, he's coming back. He'll appear in Battlebeast again. When you release it, you should release it in February. Okay. Black history? Yes. I'm aware. I'm aware.

You can't afford anything. You guys got the short month. It's unfair. Oh, look, no. That's why I love that. I love, thank you. We appreciate that, man. Robert Kirkman, it'll be the headline.

It says, Black History Month should be year round. That's what we'll put this on YouTube. Two months. Thank you very much. Robert Kirby, thank you, y'all. Y'all, we're back. We're joined here by Cody Ziegler. Thanks for having me.

Yo, thank you for being here. If y'all don't know, my man, you've written on Chi Hulk, Rick and Morty, currently Futurama. Yes, yes, yes. I would say for our purpose is most exciting. Your announces the new static writer, how's it feel? It feels, can we curse on this thing? I don't know. Oh, it feels, say whatever the fuck you want.

It feels fucking crazy. Like I was telling, I was with Stephanie Williams, who's another fantastic prolific writer, comic writer black. She's on the Vixen book. Yes. And like, you know, we've talked about, you know, it's like, we grew up,

we don't, there's not a lot of us on TV. Like you see like static and like, seeing that domino that leads to like Miles Morales, which leads back to like static, it's like very cool. Like, I always think about like the first time I saw that TV show, like, oh wow, they look like us.

His dad looks like mine. This family looks like mine. They have the same interactions that we have. Like they had the same real conversation. And I remember being like, 2021 when like Miles got announced, like, well, this is going to be like a black Spider-Man and like running to like the comic shop and like buying the one. Like I've had that framed next to my work desk for like 14, 15 years now. Like it's meant so much to me. And like I would love to give that feeling to like the next generation.

Like I would love to have like a 12 year old kid, like oh, he looks like my cousin. It looks like my aunt and like have them get into the arts. Like they had this big evil plan where like my dad was really, I mean, he's still here, but he was really. into getting me into arts and drawing. And like, he's the first time I saw like a Frank Vosetta book was like my dad. And he got me into the arts and playing music and stuff. I would love the idea of that seed being like the thing

that's planted in like the next black generation. Like, oh, this guy can do it. Right, I can do it. And that means like my sister can do it. My cousin can do it. Like my friend can do it. That guy at the bus stop, or that at the bus stop, they can do it.

Like, for me, it's all about sewing the seeds and like having those sprout up and like getting more black people into the arts. And I think for me, the easiest way was like seeing people that looked like to do. Right. And that's a very long-winded answer. No, I like it.

Static is such an interesting character because like when I first saw it to see the actual television show, I wasn't aware of the, like, the weightiness of the character. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The Mawcone universe. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I knew of the Mileson universe, but I didn't, when I was coming up in comics, I'm a little older, I'm 46. So when I was coming up in comics, to get comics that were off the beaten path, you really had to try. Yeah. Right. And so when Static starts to come around, I remember my boy Ian goes,

yo, this show is actually awesome. Yeah, yeah. Like, this is an awesome character. Yeah. Like, nothing, like, this is not, this is an awesome character. Yeah. And I think people have been clamoring and waiting for that character to take his place in greater comic book lore and pop culture relevance for a while.

Yeah, I mean, I agree. Like, I don't know where you guys are from, but I'm from North Carolina, very small, like we're old town, North Carolina. So again, like, you know, I was like maybe 10, 11, 12 when it came out. Like I didn't know that it was a comic book. I just knew it was like, oh, look like Batman, the TV show. Yeah. I know that was a comic book.

And like where we were at, like, comics weren't a huge thing. Like you couldn't drive to like a comic shop. Like you could go to like a newsstand and maybe get like the Flash or like incredible. Or a carousel at the 7-Eleven. For real, like, exactly. But like, like, we didn't have a dedicated comic shop. So like I couldn't read comics. I got the comics very late.

So like I've been thinking about this sort of idea like the pillars. Like I think now we're very lucky. It's not a lot. but like we have like when you think of like young black super heroes male super heroes it's like Miles and Virgil and like I would love to have more people holding up those pillars but like I think to your point like you're saying like we're at the point finally where like people have been clamoring for this for these characters I did this character but like a lot of black characters this got announced yesterday as of this recording and like this is the I've never had just more

black love from strangers and my my DMs like and I thought like for me like Miles was the one for me so like I thought I'd just get all this love for Miles and I did get that but like truly the amount of like this means so much to me like I've been waiting for this book for so long like you know it's been like 1200 days or whatever the count was since like you know there's been like an ongoing like main plain line black superhero so like the amount of love is great also the pressure that comes with it's like oh man I got like really deliver which is like nice like it's a great problem to be it's a great place to be um I just came here from the futurama recording and like Bill Lamar as like one of our cast members and like it's so surreal like he was a Virgil like now I work with him and now I'm going back and writing Virgil and like it's just a weird like full circle moment for me it's a very surreal it's the only time I've texted my dad being like hey I'm writing this thing and me like what what you writing wow yeah it's very cool yeah what was your what was your like um pitch for like static because obviously like it's a dream gig so yeah it's one of those things where you're like okay now that I'm the writer what's my plan yeah I mean I got to give it I'm going to give a lot of

love and shout out to Stephanie Williams about this whole thing I is or nominated Stephanie whims because like when they first approached me I was like I was just coming off miles we did like 40 something issues like another 30 we have done like so many issues of miles like I was like oh is this going to be like a parallel move can I make this like a new refresh thing look like a rehab like all this stuff you guys is like when you're in the creative field like you want to like strive and do like you don't want to do the same shit so you want to like move the goal post in a good way creative way and like she was she really gassed me up and gave me the energy I needed to like come into it perspective and like my perspective is like going back to like the TV show for most

of us who didn't have, really people like me who didn't have access like a city near us. Like we only, we got this media through TV. So I want to be very friendly. I want to be someone who has, maybe you know who static is. Maybe you've read as Wikipedia, like, you know the major beats. Sort of the same way that like, we know who Peter Parker is. We know that Superman's like another planet. We understand just culturally who Virgil is.

And through that, this would make an easy access to this. Like I was saying, my point of view is that it's an introduction, introduction to Virgil to like the audience, but also to the DC world at large. And I think now one of the benefits of that is like, we do have a lot of like black new writers coming into the DC with black characters that some of them haven't been announced. Some of them have been announced. But like I want to build a coalition.

And like I am of the mindset like a rising tide lifts all ships. Like I want to get in there and like work with all my other black creators and create like sort of like what milestone did. Like treating like a new era of milestone with like that we're in the DC. Like we're all jumping out of this plane together. If my parachute doesn't work, maybe yours will work. Like that's my mindset going in.

That's like sort of a tangent to what you're asked. But to go back to your question. I really want to be very approachable. I want you to pick this book up and be like, oh, I know what this is without having to be bogged down and lore and feel very, very fun. It's my introduction to static. So like the way that I picked up Miles was like,

you should be able to read this and just know what the story is and know what these vibes are. And like if you're from the culture, you understand what this shorthand ends for these characters. Right now you have the reinvention or not the reinvention. Let me put you like this. So Mr. Terrific is getting the show.

Yeah. And, you know, Eddie's a guy of ours, a friend of ours. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Amazing, right? These are characters, him, static,

some others that have been around for a while. Yeah, yeah. Right? They've been around for a while. But it's almost as if now you're debuting them. Yeah. Like Mr. Terrific in a way,

his debut almost was in that movie. But you had seen them in comic books. You had seen them on the TV. in the CW show. Yeah, he had been around, but as far as like, this is a Superman ally that you have to contend with. Yeah. Do you feel pressure at all? I mean, it's parallel to a question that Charles just asked.

But like, now what I'm really trying to say is the spotlight is there. And people are going, okay, what are you going to do? Yeah, I mean, I think there's pressure with anything when it comes like being like the first introduction back into something. but also pressure does make diamonds I think we can all speak like this industry can be very stressful in its own ways strictly when like you look like us and from our background's like I'm used to that

but I actually think that that's a benefit like I think about this all the time when like 10 years ago when like Marvel first started like cooking like they were cooking like they were cooking cooking yeah and like my mom knows what an infinity stone is like that's crazy that's crazy that's so nuts that people know what the

goddamn they know what the soul stone they know that metastrophic news is spheres like that's just like that's just like it's, I guess an actual benefit to have that cultural shorthand. Like, I think like many things now, like we've been now, we've been watching TV for like a hundred something years. Like, where you, like people, the audience, like the layman isn't really the layman anymore. Like, they have an understanding of like what story is, understand how different media, um, has different ways of telling stories. So like, I think it's a benefit to have someone coming in and be like,

all right, I know James Guns, Mr. Terrific. Like, I want to read the Mr. Terrific comic book. So the same way that like people would, you know, maybe they've watched static TV show like or they've seen him in like some of the other DC movies like animated movies and stuff. They've come in with like, I understand like I don't have to read his Wikipedia page. Like I know controls electricity. Like I know he has a family. Sometimes he's 15, sometimes a little bit older. Like I think that's actually a very easy.

That's actually does a lot of heavy lifting for for me, from my perspective as a writer. Like how many times you need to read an origin story of like Peter Parker? How many times you need to see the Wayne's walk down that alley? Like it's called prime alley. like what are we doing like we've all sort of got that so we can sort of my benefit my I think the benefit is that you can like jump into it like you understand the setting the places are set you know who's here you know this the tables have set now we can get into like the actual story and get into what the what eventually the book will be so I'm not trying to be mr. radical or get

you in trouble but obviously with you doing statics definitely doing vixit as a lifelong comic book fan I'm like okay but when we're going to let more black creators touch like Batman or X-Men. Like, as someone who's in the room, are you like, no, that's obviously, like, you want to play with the big toys as well. Like, yeah, I mean, I, it was, it's so, I felt like I've had a very strange career from the comic book side because, like, the two characters I want to write, I wanted to write were Miles and Deadpool. And, like, I got those, like, basically off jump. So your dream off jump. Yeah. Like, I got it. Which is great. But, you know, you're like, it's like, suffering from success. It's like, no, now, like, I've done what I want

to do? Like, now what do I would do? Like, like, how do I, like, how do I, like, how do I challenge myself. Like, how do I be scared? Like, I fight or fight. How do I activate that creative, like, fight or flight mode? Yeah. And with this, like, you know, yeah, it's very scary because one, I've never worked for DC before. I'm coming into a universe that like I haven't really kept up with outside of like the absolute line. So like that's very scary in a good way. But as far as like, you know, the big character is like, I think it does help to put in perspective. Like Stephanie loves Vixen. Like she's to work on this book for like two years. When we first met two or three years ago, she's like, man, I would love to do a Vixen book.

So like, can I ask? How does she even get? to the point where it's like vixen is a character where it's like if you grew up with the justice league cartoon or reading comics yeah we know who vixen is yeah can you i don't want you to talk for stepheny yeah was that a bolder that she was trying to push up a hill like we we need an ongoing vixen book i mean i can't speak for step but i just know she had such passion for it and like this is just my um how i got into these characters like i remember um this is like the ghost go to you're watching dragon ball z and you see pickler's like oh that's a nigg that's my uncle I think like if you see, we have no representation and you see like the smallest like squinting your eyes.

If you have no representation, you create it. Exactly. And it's like I think I was thinking about this analogy last night. Like for so long you see these characters like Clark Clan or Steve, Steve Rogers. And like you understand like the makeup of the character. You got squint a little bit like already. He's like a good person. Like he's about having, you know, no biases.

Like he's a good person. Like you got to squint and like, you know, it goes out of focus and you like kind of put yourself in there. I think the benefit of this is like now we can have our eyes all the way open. Like, oh, I don't have to squint to see this like Picasso type painting. Like, this is a real thing and it looks like me. It sounds like me. It looks like my family. Now I already have that like connection, like just like the color of the skin,

the texture of her hair, the way that we glass, the way that we wear chains, whatever. I think seeing that makes it a little bit easier for us to get in there. So like, I don't know for Stephanie, but if it was like me, like I saw Miles. And I remember being so like crying with like joy. Like, oh, this looks like my cousin Donovan. Yeah. And that is so important. So like I could see like, again, I don't want to speak for Steph, but like I could see a world where she's like, yo, this character's always been like my Batman or my Wonder Woman or whatever.

And like I now my goal is like I want to make everyone realize like how important it was for me, how it can be important for everyone. At least that's what my, that's what my, my thought is. And now a character like that is just like one television, a movie portrayal away. Yeah. From being on the level that they weren't before. Yeah. I mean, I got to be honest with you guys before. 2008 or 2009,

2000, whenever it came out, nobody gave a fuck about Black Widow like that. Yeah, she was cool. Like, she was a cool character. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They give a vision a TV show. I'm just saying, like, she was a cool character. Like, if you had Silver Sable or Black Cat

or any of those characters, like, they're cool characters are part of the thing. But, I mean, Black Cat, you know, we'll see what happens in the future of Spider-Man and stuff. But those characters now are, like, legitimate, like, main... dream like black widow's a big deal. Yeah, and they have great books now.

They have great books. Kelly Thompson's Black Widow is one of the best things I've ever read. Like, obviously no Matt Factions and Dave Ayala is like Hawkeye, like, an incredible, so good that they based a TV show off of it. So, like, to your point, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off, but you're so excited about it. Is that like we're at the point now where like the books are called up. Like now people, like I said, people know who Hawkeye, they know who both Hawkeyes

are. Like they know who, they know that we're at the point now where we have two Falcons. Like we know like, we have, yeah, we have legacy characters in this. show. So, like, that's really exciting as a comic book creator, not just like writer, but also a reader is like, oh, we can see the different types of these. Like, now we have, but the fact that we have a U.S. agent in a movie that works is crazy. Man, that's what a pool.

Yeah. U.S. agent, the off-brand Captain America that was like that, that had popped up and you be all, that's not Captain America. That's U.S. agent. The fact that U.S. agent is now, this is, and I'm not, I'm not meaning to disparage any of these characters when I say. What I'm trying to say is that now you legitimately have a beautiful on-ramp for Vixen

or for static or I'm waiting for Bishop to get his goddamn moment. For all of these characters now, the infrastructure is there. I like Bishop. All of these characters are there for them to be like main things. We've seen it happen. So this is the point. This is the time. Yeah. I mean, I think it's a great, great moment for sequential art in general.

but like I think about like what absolute line is doing like they're all bangers but they are all so we deeply weird in the best way possible like I could like if you're telling me that there's a Martian Manhunter book that makes your brain melt when you read it like or that like you know Wonder Woman book is it's it's incredible like she has a spoilers but she has like a magic arm that disappears and she has a sword that gets as big it's it's just so I like the Superman one I think they're all bangers I think I think this I think the super I think the super Superman is an incredibly subversive take on Superman. Working class.

Yeah. Clark Klan is like, it's just. But what's the last time we've had a line where it's like everybody can have their own favorite book? Yeah. Yeah. And it's exciting, dude. Like I've,

I've, you know, I've been lucky to work in comic. It seems crazy saying it's like four or five years. And now it's like, it gets very hard to read comics that for fun. Like it's like a little bit, oh,

I'm doing this for research and maybe the same for you guys when you watch TV and movies sometimes. Like, oh, I'm here, but like, part of me is like partitioned to be like, this is work. So like it's very fun to be in a place where I can read something for fun, which I haven't been able to do in a very long time. Is there,

is there anything that you, obviously it's all storytelling. Yeah. You learn from the TV side of doing Sheehulk or Futurama and then going and doing a static book or a Miles book or writing Deadpool. Like, is there a TV writer side of your brain and a con book? Because they're different mediums,

but they, it's still story. Yeah. Yeah. That's funny. I'm so glad you asked that because I've been thinking about a lot for the past couple years in that like, so I came from TV first.

And it's all about collaboration. Comedy rooms, like I can't speak for drama. I've never done drama, but like from the comedy side, it's so collaborative. Like you don't, you're not precious about anything. Like the process is for those who don't know is that you write your script and you come back and then every single one in the person in that room,

we read it line by line and we make it better. So like I enter into the comedy process being like, oh, I'm not an artist. Like I'm an individual storyteller. Like there's no way that I'm gonna outright, um, Justin Mason or Frederico Byzantini. Like I'm not an editor. Like when you're like working with editors being like,

oh, I have to see like what, this is gonna be someone, this is someone always says, an editor always says, this is always gonna be someone's first issue, whether it's issue one, issue 17, issue 42. So there's a way that you have to collaborate with everyone to make it make sense. And I really thrive off that.

Like I love the idea of coming in together and be like, oh, how can I make this, if I'm, if you're like Stephanie Williams, like how can I, what can I do in my book to make your book stronger? Like what can I do in your book to make your book stronger? Like I always want, I like the collaborative aspect of it. So like I come into these things thinking about that,

And also, when it just comes to structure, like, I've been lucky, you know, Rick and Morty is a very specifically structured show without getting into the minutia of it. Like, it's just, it's Dan Harmon created a very specific type of writing style, which I think is very... As the whole, he talks about the whole wheel. Yes, the circle and all that. Yeah, yeah. And, like, that's very helpful for, like, mythology. And comic books is our, our, like, modern day mythology. So it's very easy for me to, like, put that into that. But also for the comic side, you know, there are moments where, like, I've had editors

when I first started being, like, it's a comic. You could have them have a laser gun that shrinks you down or, like, a truck that turns into a submarine. Like, you can lean into the fun of the medium. And, like, my first couple issues, like, I thought everything had to make very structural and, like, modern sense. But, like, no, there's a nigger with four robotic, armed and his name is Dr. Octopus.

You know, like, you can lean into that fun and like, don't be afraid to chase that fun. So, like, it's, it's been very fun mirroring, mirroring, mirroring. Yes, yes, those two realities together. It's been a long week and for all week. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I got one last question, man. What's good? There's only one episode of television that I feel like to be erased from human thought

and existence never to be showed or referenced again. And that's an episode of television called Jurassic Bark. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm legitimately getting emotional right now. Dog, that's too sad, bro. Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, like, I know, like, that's too sad. And, like, sometimes when I get,

if you guys don't know the episode of Futurama, you guys know the episode. I've talked about it before. Sometimes when I get really bummed out about it, I go watch subsequent episodes of FutureRama. Futurama where the dog is back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because they have different versions of, like, the timeline where he's back with the dog.

Yeah. Y'all got to do something. You got to talk to your friends over there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You got to do something to, like, undo Jurassic Bar. Yeah, yeah. It's a lot of trauma. I can't believe that that happened in that timeline.

I can't wrap my mind. That's too sad, right? I know. Look, in my interview, they were talking about, like, we were talking with our showrunner, David and Matt, the creator of all. all these shows. And I was like, I'm be real with you. Like, that's actually like my favorite episode. Oh, I love that. You see it coming. It's so good. My two favorite episodes are TV or Jurassic Bark and Pickle Rick. And I think they're very similar in that. Pickle Rick, he's turns himself into a pickle.

He's like fighting through rats and making like an Iron Man mech suit. And he ends up in this weird, like Eastern European like diplomatic building. It's all very insane. Like the last four minutes is just him having a very real grounded conversation with his family's therapist because he's not there as a, as a grandpa. And that's the same way that I thought about drastic park. Like,

oh, it's this fun adventure we're going back in time we're seeing Fry's Dog and then the last two minutes is just the most saddest grounded piece of media. It's not even sad. Like, I'm literally about to cry.

It's not like, it's not sad. Sad is like, oh, me and my friends hung out all summer. Yeah. And then I had to go away to college. Yeah. Exactly. See, you know.

Like, that's sad. Yeah. That's sad. Like the end of fucking stand by me. We were never together like that. again, the sand lot. Oh, this was us for this one major summer and one guy went on to play. That's sad.

Yeah. This is a Greek tragedy of every proportion as we have to watch that poor pup go to meet his master every single day and then pass away, never seeing his owner again, his best friend. Why is that your favorite episode of the show? I don't know. I like pain. All right. Yeah.

God damn. All right. my last question because I always I always want to ask people like you was so yeah you worked at Marvel you worked at DC as a writer what's the difference is I mean everyone says this but I think that I mean Stanley always said marvels the world outside your window that's why it takes place mostly in like real places so like I do enjoy that aspect of like you know you go to New York you walk around Brooklyn you see people you see how they talk this and how they dress it's just something about going into the city and like like New York I mean I'm not going to give my feel about

New York. But like, it's a very, one of the specific cities where, like, you feel the city when you get into it. Like, I'm not from there, but like, when I go in there, like, I look at the skyscrapers and sometimes I'm like, oh, man, what would be like if, like, human torch, which, like, blaze and past the Chrysler building. As a kid, because, like, I lived in New York, you think about, like, I lived in New York. You think about, that's, like, the major difference for me is that, like, if I want to understand what RuiW Williams, like, I can just catch a flight to Chicago and, like, walk around. Right. which is fun. And on the flip site with DC is like, oh, we have an idea of what Gotham is like, it's scary. Like that's, and like,

I think you have a lot of freedom like you're not tied down to reality, but like there is something that I really enjoy with the tech talent is of like the West Coast Avengers live in L.A. Like that's something very funny

about like I can drive to like, you know, Silver Lake and maybe see. When I moved to LA, I was just like, yeah, it's, this city don't need an Avengers team.

They don't feel to say. Yeah, yeah. But even just like working with do, do they have? have different, like, ethos in terms of just like, oh, over here, our books are kind of like this and that DC is different or no. I think they just care about story like that.

I mean, they really care about like story and character and like, granted, I'm very new at DC, but like, I feel like something I love about both companies that so far is that like they just, they run with the idea. Like if you have a very fun idea and I see that activates you like a very primal fun way, chase that, like chase that whimsy, like push whimsy, like chase that fall your bliss. And like, I find that very comforting as someone coming to DC for the first time. Because I'm like, oh my God, like, I'm the new kid in school. Are they going to bully me?

They can push me into like a locker about fucking Batman owns. But no, they're very chill. And like, I love that. My first book was at Marvel was like Spider-punk. And they gave, honestly, probably too much freedom, like write whatever you want to. And that's the exact same energy I'm having right now with static. And like, I love that. Like, I, as a creative like that fulfills me with such joy.

Man, hell yeah. Thank you so much. Of course. Thanks for having me, bro. Appreciate you, brother. Yeah. Yeah.