The Ringer-Verse - 'Secret Invasion' Episode 2 Deep Dive | House of R

Episode Date: June 30, 2023

They're all here! The 'House of R' crew returns to dive deep into the second episode of 'Secret Invasion' (11:36). They discuss the origins of Gravik and Nick Fury's relationship, as well as the betrayal that came with humanity and the Skrulls (22:09). Later, they break down the Skrull Council and what influence it has on society (64:16). Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Social: Jomi Adeniran Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Restrictions apply. See terms at Fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. Oh, right. But you find using us as your spies and your air invoice. As long as it's on your terms. The host gets to set the terms of the visitation. What happens when the host disappears? Huh?

Because you were gone. And I didn't think you were coming back. I really didn't. And you know what? Even when you did come back, there was no talking to you about anything real. Your boots barely hit Earth. And oh, it's too heavy here, man.

I gotta go up to my space station. You've been up there for years! You knew how to get in touch with me, Taloz. And you didn't, because you didn't want me to... to know. And welcome into the Ringerverse here on the Ringer podcast network. I'm Mallory Rubin and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only back to London, but also to join us on the Ringer's Nexus podcast feed for all things, fandom.

Joining me today, now that she's finished telling me I'm old. Vapers! Have you ever said that to me, Joe, that I'm just vapors, old? Have you said it about me? I would never. Also, I'm older than you. It's my house of our working title. Joanna Robinson.

I forgot to say co-hosts. I'm a mess here in the studio. Well, what you didn't hear is that before we started this podcast, Mallory screamed at me that the host gets to set the terms of the visitation. So I'm here. But your humble, scruly guest to Breakdown Secret Invasion, Episode 2. Episode 2, Joe, that's right. you keep your word and we'll keep ours,

but before we get to that, the word keep in, the episode to deep dive, all of it, we have, of course, our usual programming reminders. Here they are for the next few days in the ring of verse. Friday. What time on Friday?

Who can say? Friday. It's a house of midnight team up. Van, Joanna, Mallory, we'll all be together. Should I start speaking in the third person? Yes, always.

Now that I'm in the studio, You don't just develop a different persona. Studio Mal. We are going to be talking about Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny, a movie that the three of us genuinely really enjoyed and loved and can't wait to talk about together. And we have a special guest for the pod, Joe. Oh, who is it? You may ask?

Well, I'm so happy to tell you. It is none other than the director of Logan. and also the director of Indiana Jones and the Doyle Destiny, it is James Mangold. So we're thrilled. Fantastic. A genius, an absolute legend on the pod.

And Mallory had a great chat with him. It was so fun. Fantastic. Should I just start saying fantastic? Like the ninth doctor? Yep, please. After every sentence. Brilliant.

Really workshopping like a new energy today. Yeah. We'll see how it goes. You're my current nomination for Secret Secret Scroll. Studio Mallory. You know, I meant to text you after we finished last week because you had said that the tell would be if I didn't take a bathroom break during a recording.

And then I did not take a bathroom break during that recording. And I want to know if you alerted anybody else on the team that we might have an imposter situation. Yeah, Steve has like a really scary set of clippers just under the table and he's ready to snip your finger off. Yeah. out of reach of Steve. And if you see a syringe with some blue liquid in it,

I've blocked the escape patch, so if he cuts off any of my digits, he will not be able to flee. Don't worry about it. Reference crime and punishment. So there's that, at least. What else do we have cooking? We've got more, folks.

We've got more this weekend. Jessica Clemens will have another video pod. You will be able to watch it on Spotify. You'll be able to watch it on YouTube. It's going to be an Easter egg breakdown of this episode of Secret Invasion. Then, Monday, the Mint Edition crew, will be chatting about a television show that I have never seen a single second of. The Witcher.

Joanna's a Witcher enthusiast. Yeah. Yeah. This is Henry Cavill's goodbye tour. There you go. Yeah. The Witcher season three, part one. Fantastic.

Great. Netflix. Great stuff. I cannot wait for that pod. And then Secret Secret Invasion episode three later in the week. So the pot is popping. Joanna, how can the people follow all of that?

Oh my gosh. I'm so delighted that you asked me, even if you are a scroll, you can follow us on all social media at the Ringerverse, right? So Twitter, Instagram, Mallory's beloved Peach. Do you love Peach, Mallory, or are you a scroll? You know? Yeah, I love Peach, but if I were a scroll,

that would be like one of the top five bullet point. Make sure to mention your cat a lot. Randomly nod to the long time defunct social media platform, Pete. Wait, can you... Say something about Brooks Robinson's 16 consecutive gold gloves, and you're pretty much good to go. Can you pronounce the nickname for the Baltimore team right now? The Warriors? The Oos.

You would dance at the O'SHoon to watch the A's? There you are. It's a real you. Okay. No scroll could possibly emulate that accent. All right. So, as I mentioned, follow us on all social media. Email us.

Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. And I just want to let you know, Mallory, that people are now just signing their emails with their preferred Apple. Like, we got several emails that are like essentially XOXO Honeycrisp, you know, blah, blah. Someone signed their email, their name, Hunter, their pronouns, he, him, and then just Honey Crisp Envy Gala. And I'm considering that, like, part of the pronouns. It's like he, him, honey crisp, envy gal. Like, that's great stuff. This is how I'm going to start signing all of my text messages to you.

That's going to take up a lot of space. I feel like your laziness will supersede the your commitment to the bit. It's like going to be 1.30 in the morning. And I'll send you a picture of my TV, which will be showing some Harrison Ford movie. So our usual 130 texting, to be clear. Nothing's different so far. And then at the end, I will sign it. XOXO,

pink lady 85% of the photos that, no, that's not true because definitely Halo is 50% so it's like 50% photos of Halo, 50% photos of

Mallory's TV of something she's watching or maybe it's a video of her TV of something she's watching and she's like get a load of this

dialogue from Yellowstone Joanna and then you just hear like Mallory cackling in the background. Have scrolls figured out screenshots because I guess that

would be another way. Do they just take pictures of their TVs instead of using screenshot technology? That would be another test. What's my top scroll tell? Boy. I think it has maybe something to do with your beverage routine, you know, the number of and flavor variants of the La Croy's on your table at any given moment. I'm currently rocking. Waterloo. Okay. I know you're a Waterloo head. No caffeine after a certain point in the day. Steve, what else? Okay. What else would be Joe's tell? I think whether or not bug.

takes off your headphones in the middle of the recording is something we should watch out for. Because I feel like animals, like, they know, they can sense it, right? Yeah, maybe the- The humans may not have figured out a detection technique, but I know a bug would be able to sniff this at the second. Maybe the fact that my cat is nowhere to be found is like a good indication. She's like cowering under the bed because she's like, that's not a real human. All right. The other thing I want to say under email category of my intro here is to say,

I have to assume this person's name is either Gabby. or Gabe. It's Gabe without me though, so think Steve Gap. Anyway, this person says, sorry to say, but I'm firmly team Honeycrisp Gala, pink lady. But truly my favorite way to consume an apple is a crisp, hard cider. I live in the Hudson

Valley. So, Hudson Valley, beautiful slice of the country, Hudson Valley. I once went on an apple cider tasting, like a wine tasting tour, but it was apple cider in like, in around the Hudson Valley. Do you Do you have an Apple cider, hard cider brand that you would like to shout out without getting any money from them whatsoever?

What free advertising do you want to give today? I do. Thank you for asking. STEM? Are you familiar with STEM Hard Sider? I believe this is a Denver-based cider, which I know because I have tried to order this. You know, I love to order things to be shipped to me so that I can continue to consume them in the comfort of my own. living room. And they have not only a very nice, dry, crisp apple cider, but a lot of variants. Multiversal variants? Who can say? We're a big fan of the raspberry cider variant in our

household. So, STEM, that's my answer. How about you, Joe? I want to shout out Sonoma Cider. Ace Cider is in Sabasville where I used to live, but Sonoma Cider, which I think is based in Santa Rose or something like that, has a cider called the crow bar, which is a habanero hard cider, and absolutely delicious. I just got Steve's attention. Are you a big spice enthusiast, a big, like, pepper enthusiast? Not like in general, but I love alcohol that is like habanero or jalapeno spice, yes. Yeah, I love a spicy, a spicy boozy drink as well.

Exactly. Yeah. Wonderful. So now that we spent 30 minutes or whatever, talking about time. Yes. So far. I think I may or may not have said follow the pod, but listen, follow the pod. That way you can get all the Mint Edition, Midnight Boys, whatever Jess is incredibly producing.

And House of Our every week in your feed, great stuff, ring or verse, follow us. What else, Mallory? Last thing to say at the top is, uh, spoiler warning. It's the friendly neighborhood spoiler warning, but it is warning. So you have been warned or you're about to be warned that we will discuss today. promises the second episode of Secret Invasion. Joe, anytime there's a promise. Promise me Ned.

Boy, start to get anxious. Obviously, the entire MCU run to date is fair game today. Marvel Comics. Canon is fair game today. You don't just top two when summoned, but you have been worn. So proceed with caution. All right. Let's get into it.

Before we get into the deep dive, before we go through every scene in the episode, But let's start, as always, with our opening snapshot, Joanna Robinson. What did you think of episode two of Secret Invasion promises? I thought episode two was a marked improvement over episode one. I'd say I would pull out three to maybe three point five scenes that I thought were extraordinary. I still think there, I still have notes, but I'm glad we're on a slight upward trajectory from episode one. And this is something that we had sort of like hoped for you. pointed out that usually Marvel Disney Plus shows sort of like fall off a cliff at the end.

But we were hoping maybe this is like a reverse and we're starting at the bottom. We're just going to just going to ascend to Great Heights in this show because that's what we want. So yeah, that's my snapshot of episode two. How about you? Yeah, I also thought it was a more successful episode than the first, though still uneven and still lacking in. in certain respects. I really, really, really enjoyed the graphic scenes in this episode. I thought that they were completely riveting.

Yeah. And it continues to be true that every second we get to spend with Olivia Coleman is a gift from the Marvel gods. There are a couple scenes in the episode that we'll talk about as we go where some of the questions that we have, even though these are very, very, very, very different shows, it made me think. a little bit of the discussions that we were having on prestige TV about Yellow Jackets, Joe, with the question of like unreliable narrators and when do the scales tip too far into pulling you out of the experience as a viewer. I think like the challenge of sparking paranoia and getting us to ask about a lot of different characters, might this be a scroll or might they have a hidden agenda or might they be poised to betray somebody or if they have betrayed somebody, is it really

going to be a, oh, I'm not a double agent, I'm a triple agent kind of reveal in time. you're definitionally supposed to be unsure, literally of who people are, of what their intentions are. And that's part of the appeal and part of the proposition. But in some scenes, when the questions that you ask are just literally like, why would a character behave this way? Would the entire world suddenly be like, yeah, Russia? Like, things like that just really are pulling me out of the episode. I think, yeah. And I think it's just skewing a little too far into like what is a flaw in the storytelling, right?

and the scripting, and what is part of that we need to keep you unsure and uncomfortable? I think the part of the story that's being hurt the most by that is our fourth-billed character actor, Guy Amelia Clark, I think there is like, I think some mistakes are being made in terms of trying to keep us guessing about her allegiance or her agenda, but then like, then I just don't feel like I have a grasp on the character at all, and I'm having trouble caring. You know what I mean? I'm really interesting to talk about some of the, like, some of the stuff that Kingsley Benadir has said about Gravick, which is really, really, really heightened my interest in

that character. A character I was already interested in a performer I already liked. So. He was fantastic. But yeah, I think, I mean, I think your Yellow Jackets comp is a good one, but I think also it does go back to that whole faceless man issue of like, of like, if you are. constantly second-guessing. I think if we latch on to like one person we think this person is a scroll in this

episode in this series, which we have, we have picked our champion. I'm still really invested in either answer to that question. But if it's like everyone's a scroll or, you know, like, we'll see. We'll see how they parcel it out, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Should we get right to it?

Let's do it. Should we dive? Yeah. Should we dive deep? deep like Sonia into the cavern beneath the meat locker where she made one of the most expert masturbation jokes in the history of the MCU. Can't wait to talk about that. Let's do the entire deep dive on that.

Okay. We're going to go scene by scene. We're going to start at the beginning of the episode. The beginning of the episode is, in essence, a previously on, it's a recap of the 1995 timeline of Captain Marvel, though, without any of the Captain Marvel. It's Fury and the Scrolls and Maria. And we get that Maria line in particular. They won't be safe here.

They need their own home to set the tone for this promise made and this promise that was not followed through on and honored. Before we get to the 97 London opening stretch there, is there anything that struck you about that quick previously on that was not actually technically presented as a previously on? I had to double check to make sure I wasn't, like, accidentally playing episode one again. And I was like, oh, no, we're like, this is an episode. Like, I was like, oh, did I miss, like, a massive, you know how, like, Disney Plus is putting out those little, like, shorty, like, character ketchup things or whatever?

I was like, are we doing, like, a full Nickeury? I don't know. And again, this gets to, like, this gets to the larger Marvel question of, like, how much homework is too much homework to ask someone to do. This feels a little handholdy. But at the same time, like, I know a lot of people saw Captain Marvel in the theater. made a shit ton of money, but I don't know that it's one that a lot of people rewatch necessarily, given the way that people talk about it now. So, you know, I'm sure that that refresher was necessary for some people. Yeah, I think that struck me about it was ultimately not about

this episode and more like another ding now in hindsight on episode one, where like you would think that Captain Marvel refresher would have come at the very beginning of the series, but so much of what the initial episode did. Yeah, just. Okay, so we go to 97. We're two years after the events of Captain Marvel. And we have a lot of interesting things in this sequence. This is where Young Gravick meets Fury. This is where Fury makes the promise and then makes the pitch. This is where Taylor speaks on Fury's behalf, this rare declaration of trust. But every now and then on this pod, Joe, one of us just has to say, this is who I am. And this is one of my this is, who I am moments.

We're going to talk about all of that in like 45 seconds. Here's what we're going to talk about first. Where is Goose? How is Goose not in this scene? Goose and Fury, we end Captain Marvel with this beautiful bond. The eye scratch. Our flurkin has swallowed and then vomited up the Tester Act snoozing away in Fury's office. Two years later, no goose.

We have an opportunity to bring one of the most. Sterling performers in the history of the MCU, Reggie, the orange tabby back? And we don't do it? This is real... What's happening in here? This is real Bill Simmons wears Mondale energy on the Succession Podcast. I have my agenda and it is set. And it is where the fuck is.

Okay. I got to be me and tell you that I have to read this email that we got from Chris, mostly because it's like one of the most British emails we've ever received and that thrilled me to no end. Right? So we get the London skyline of 97. We're in Brixton. Chris wrote, and I'm not going to do the accent,

because later I'm going to criticize someone's accent, and I'm not setting myself up for that. So I'm just going to do it in my American accent. Chris wrote, it's hardly controversial to say that we've had to sit through a fair amount of bollocks from the MCU of recent. However, them not being arced to Photoshop out a dozen anachronistic skyscrapers to the 1997 London skyline may be the final straw for me. So that didn't really, the Accuris Skyline didn't really bother me, but I did want to read an email that had bollocks and arst in it.

So thanks, Chris, for that. Wonderful stuff. I also think the Brixton setting is interesting because we're going to talk a little bit later about the real world. Who in the cast is interested in the real world politics and allegories of the show and who has decided that's not what the show is about? I think that's an interesting dynamic going on behind the scenes. But Brickson as a location, it's so funny, I was just talking about Brickston on the Big Pig podcast where we're doing our favorite films of the year. And I will say, spoiler, my favorite film in the year is set in Brickston. And it is like a very cool part of the films, like the way that Brickston, but like Brickston, South London is a very specific and interesting location.

If you watch Steve McQueen's 2020 film Small Axe, there's this whole segment, Alex, that is a lot of, about, based on a true story about this young man who is involved in the, like, 1981 uprising, like racial uprising that happened in Brixton, which touches on, like, gentrification and racial injustice and all the sort of stuff like that. But Alex Weedle, who wrote Brixton Rock, which is a fantastic novel from 1999, the location is just, like, kind of brimming with meaning. And the way in which Alex Weedle, that character named after a real person, is, like, is an orphan. I was like, are we meant to, like, draw a line between that character and Gravick,

who we meet right here. The first thing we learn about Gravick is that he has lost his parents and he is angry, you know? Yes. Interesting. I love that. Love to spend time over in jelly, old England. Oh, bloody. Should we start saying bollocks more on the pot? And arst, please. Yeah. I don't know if we could. I feel like CR could sell it. Over on the watch, you know, for sure. You as a woman of whales, you probably could get away with it. I refuse to cede the Anglophile, like, crown. Of course.

To C.R. He and I have to share that. Certainly not about the Anglifile. I mean, I have a lifelong Anglophile as well. Simply the speech, incorporating bollics into your everyday speech. I don't know. I'll work on arst. Give it to go.

See how it feels. Couldn't be arst. I'll be working on that. This episode is brought to by Paramount Plus. Beth and Rip are back in a new series, Dutton Ranch. Kelly Riley and Colehouser returned, and this time they're taking on Texas. As Beth and Rip build a future together, peace will have to wait as they face corruption, danger, and a ruthless rival ranch,

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betrayed by Fury's exodus by his absence. So we had a sense that they had known each other for quite some time. And here it is, you know, you mentioned the death of his parents, that last stand against the the way that he escaped on his own. Vara, who introduces Gravick, who brings him into the mix, describes him his intellectual prowess, how smart he is, how he's a survivor. And when Fury apologizes to Gravick about his parents,

Gravick says they died a brilliant death. Brilliant death. That freedom, fighter, dogma, very apparent from our first moment with him here, he's been forged by war in the past that has shaped him, that has cemented his worldview. And so, of course, he is going to be willing to wage war again when we get that big speech at the council table later.

War, war, this is setting up that moment. The fact that these characters have known each other for three decades, by the time of the blip, we're talking about a couple decades of shared history here. we get an interesting look passing between Gravick and Gaia as well when Fury, and we'll talk about the Fury Talos pledge in a second here, but when he toast Soren for her courage, right, for her bravery, she's the first one to step forward to take the pledge.

A look is exchanged between Gaia and Gravick. So there's a lot of history between this group of central figures right here in this scene. Anything in terms of what this told us about Gravick that we needed to know for the rest of episode for the rest of the season that really struck you most. I might do something that upsets you here and, like, pull us out of chronological order of the episode. Do it. But I think the, I don't, it's not a casting spoiler, but like the actors who plays Vera is the actress who plays Nick Fury's wife at the end of the episode.

A friend of mine who, yeah, a friend of mine who, because like this wasn't immediate apparent in the credits or whatever, but a friend of mine who worked with that actress on Pose was like, I recognized her voice right away, like that that was Shirley Woodward. And so if this is Nick Fury's wife here presenting Gravick, there is a possibility that Gravick, even more so than I was originally thinking, was raised as a son to Nick Fury. You know what I mean? If his wife is the one saying here is, and he has promise and blah, blah, blah, is Gravick so much more of a son figure to Fury than we originally thought. And if so, again, this is my hope for the upward trajectory of the season. If so, how interesting then for Talos and Nick Fury to both be like failed father figures on one side of something and their children to be on the other side of it.

And like obviously, Guy is like somewhere in the murky middle. But like to make it that personal. And I was going to say this for later, but I'm just going to say it now because I want to make sure that like, We don't talk around it, and then I, like, drop it later, and that would sound silly. But, like, Kingsley Benedere gave this fascinating interview to Adam very a variety. Adam had a great piece about the sort of, like, racial identity and how it ties into, because we've got a protagonist is a black man, an antagonist is a black man. We've got, you know, Don Chittles, you know, Rodi's in here, blah, blah, and their conversation.

But what Kingsley Benedere said, like, and so, like, Samuel Jackson is talking about how this is an important part of the character, the racial identity. Ali Salim, who's the director, is talking about as like a non-white man himself, like how that's important. And then Kingsley Badadir was like basically like, I don't think we have time in six episodes of a Marvel show to do something like that. So what he is interpretation of Gravick,

which is so different, I think, than how most of us have been reading him. He says, Gravick trusts no one, loves no one, cares about no one, and is living solely to see Nick Fury and Talos experience as much of the pain that he felt as possible. He's playing with them in a way that feels sociopathic to say the least. And then Benadier goes on to say the cause, like all this rhetoric that we hear from him throughout the episode,

he says it means nothing to him. It's just a way to manipulate people around him so he can do what he needs to do to make Fury and Talos feel the pain. I was like, we do not have time to explore this, this being like the refugee real world allegory. We do not have time to explore this properly on the show. We need to be careful. The messaging of it, especially being a person of color, I thought it was very risky. So, like, I think that's really fascinating. I think it is not necessarily what the writers and the director want to say about this character,

but it is what the actor has decided is the truth of the character. And so that'll be interesting to watch going forward, I think. Do you want to talk more about Priscilla here? Or do we want to wait to hit that at the end of the episode, The Wife Reveal? Do you want to talk about here? It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter to me. Let's do it.

Whatever you prefer. Let's do it. Yeah. Okay. So, because we're mentioning, Vara slash Priscilla, Nick Fury is married and has this, like, pretty amazing home reveal. I love the secret... This is my favorite

Marvel home that I've ever seen. Absolutely wonderful. Where does it rank for you among just fictional homes in general? It is up there. It is up there with Zoe Kravis. So like X Machina,

number one. It's number one Zoe Kravis's home on Big Little Lies that was just like all wood and plants. Oh. Yeah. And then yeah, I'll put up... Well, XMakina,

do I have to have the basement full of murder bots? Like, does that come with it? No, you can just have the water view. Okay. The ample glass. I'll do that. Oh, man.

So what do you think? Does Nick Fury know that his wife is a scroll? Because when we first see Priscilla in the kitchen, preparing a meal, she's in her scroll form. And then when Fury walks in, before he rounds the bend into the kitchen, she has transformed into human form. This has been a big source of theorizing

and discussion and debate. on the internet in the last day and a half since the show aired. You mentioned Ali Salam already, the director. He said to deadline, quote, in the script, he knows. And when we shot it, it was interesting that maybe he didn't know. We ultimately edited it in a way that made people feel like, I wonder if he knows or not. I can't tease anything forward about his wife.

The conversation in the lobby after the premiere the other night was, does he know she's a scroll or does he not? And I think either way works. So he's leaving it open. I don't think he is leaving it open. I feel like he just tipped his hand. He's like in the script, he knows. He's leaving it open except for the fact that he said in the script,

definitively he knows that she's a skull. He's like, in the script, he knows when we edited. So it was a fun little like speculation cliffhanger between episode two and three to get people talking. Which it would have remained until this quote. Yeah. If I just kept my drop shut, it could have been open either way. I mean, no shame in the game, honestly. But like, I think it's very clear that he knows.

I also think it's better. a better story, if he knows. Oh, great. You know? Yes. Certainly in the context of the, we'll talk soon about the blow-up fight between Tayloros and Fury, but that idea of coexisting and what level of harmony and a shared existence is possible in his own life, in his own home, he's doing exactly what he says

is not possible on a larger scale. And of course, he's done that also with this now, you know, three decades-long friendship with Talos. Also, obviously, I had some richness to the conversation from episode one about who's a good-looking scroll. Yeah, hot scrolls. Well, I have a follow-up question about that. Okay, so, like, two things. First of all, we got an email from Michael who says, I don't know that I 100% agree, but I think it's interesting possibility.

He says, now we know who Maria meant when she said, quote, someone else in episode one. Sorry about your Tony and Natasha theory. His fury came home because he owes it to his squife. This also explains Fury's line about knowing good-looking squirrels. This is your point. Squife. Squirewife. Right.

Oh, boy. His scouse. Anyway, this is the quote from last week's episode. Okay, let's just say I had a crisis of faith. So why did you come back? It followed me up here, up there, and I owe it to Talos. You sure you're not talking about someone else. So, like, does he owe it to his wife?

Could be. I don't know that I wholly agree, and Mallory really doesn't agree by her, judging by her face. But, like, I think it's an interesting possibility that that's what I'm talking about. I just think that line is there for. It is an interesting possibility. I think that line in episode one is there for us as longtime Marvel viewers to appeal, to bring up to the four of our minds, Furious history with vendors. Mallory's always thinking about Tony Stark and I don't blame her.

Okay. Tony is always top of mind for me. Just as I know, Steve Rogers is always top of mind for both of us. I guess we would be remiss if we didn't discuss for a minute. My wife kicked me out line from our shared favorite film, Winter Soldier, which, to be clear, was at the time and remains still despite this reveal a cover story because Nick Fury knew the apartment was bugged and that they were being monitored. However, it's nice to have that added

little bit of something that will pop into our minds now when we revisit that moment. Let me throw a little weird little wrinkle into this conversation, though. Like, let's, so in the script he knows, quote unquote, in the script he knows, right? Yes. So, okay, so Nick Fury knows that his wife is a scroll. He met her back. in the 90s. They may or may not have raised Gravick together. We'll find out. What does it say that she like puts the human face on at home when he walks in the door?

So, yeah, a couple different theories in ways you can interpret this. One that I landed on, I guess, is that, you know, we hear last week at Gravick's base that from Gaia that like the Warriors is specifically about the war. Warriors stay in their human forms. It makes it harder for them to be detected. It's easier for them to maintain the disguise. So I wonder if they have decided that this will be how she stays safe, how she avoids detection. And so she doesn't want him to get mad that she's being risky. In her own skin. In her own skin. When she's home by herself cooking. So that would be sad. She's cooking in her own skin. So if that's the case. And then felt like she couldn't be that way. If that's a hot bummer, honestly.

Terrible. Okay. Making sure we all agree. That's not a great foundation for a marriage. Scenes from a girl marriage. Scenes from a marriage. Yes. I did like thinking about the Barton

farm. The Barton Farm and, you know, Fury's established MCU track record of hiding a family. So, I mean... This is like a big part of his routine. You will see your family? Let me hide it for you.

This house looks like... makes the Barton Farm look like absolute dog shit with love and respect. Dude, you, I know, I know are a books organized by color enthusiast. You must have done this. I just, like, squealed. And then the, like, art is beautiful, and then they're just, like, surrounded by trees. And it's just, like, classy glass and wood. Ugh, I loved it.

Thematically apt art. We've got, like, the masks. You know, the wall of masks. We've got these images and paintings of things of things. Figures in some sort of state of evolution. Yeah. Great. Great looking home, man.

Great looking home. Wonderful. I hope we spend more time there. What do you think is going to happen to Nick Fury's wife? Because I got really worried, especially on the heels of our conversation in week one and the conversation around Maria Hill's death in week one, we're not going to seriously inside of the same six-episode series lose another woman in Nick Fury's life to make him mad. we? Is that going to happen? That would be really, it's marvel. Anything could happen. Yeah, I also got concerned because the whole like lone gunman thing that we've talked about.

And listen, like he's like shed Maria in episode one. That's a shitty way to put it. But like, okay. Shed Talos in this episode already, right? And then like it has been disavowed essentially by the government. So like it's just his secret scrolls. wife left. It's worrying, Joanna. It's worrying. You think you don't, I mean, would Gravick kill his scroll mom? Absolutely. Well, without question, I guess, right?

He's a sociopath, yeah. Yeah. Also, one of the other things that's clear from that Soren moment in that opening 97 scene is how long he's known her, didn't stop him from killing her. So, you know, Gravick is, you know, he's committed. He's got a lot. His work ethic is incredible, and you have to agree. He's got some takes on wine that I can't wait to discuss.

Back with, we'll zip back to the beginning of the episode, back with our 97 timeline, Young Gravick. And let's chat a little bit about how Talos in his Keller form here. addresses the assembled the way that he explains how they wound up back on Earth because of course at the end of Captain Marvel, they leave. They're on the ship and Carol is leading them away.

So this was a little small loop that the show needed to close, Steve. Can we hear this? We went looking for a home. We found nothing but violence and hate. All of us have lost someone. for everyone and our entire species is scattered across the galaxy. But for those of you who braved the journey here to Earth, you did so for one reason. This man, this man, I trust.

You know I don't use that word lightly. First things first. Mallory, can we schedule time where we just listen to Ben Mendelsohn say literally anything? So soothing. I might make this my like, go to sleep sound. It's just Ben Mendelsohn talking about trust. Absolutely. Wonderful.

It's a different, it's a different vibe here than Krenick, but they're both really special. Krenick has the cape. Keller has moral fiber. It's a really, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, you know, six and one half a dozen other. Man, absolutely fantastic. Joanna, this is just the toughest of looks

for our guy, Nick Fury, hearing a speech about believing in him, trusting in him, knowing that he will follow through, that he will help them achieve this thing that they have been unable to achieve. And when Fury begins his part of this recruitment pitch,

here's what he sketches out. Scrolls and humans can help each other. We will get later to the, we can't coexist at a large scale at that, to that extent, a train sequence. There's a threat. We're in the 97 timeline. There's a threat.

He needs help with that threat. In order for them to help, they're going to need faces, human faces. It would mean putting on a new face and keeping it. Compare that to the home in my own skin driving force of Gravix crew. This is the promise, he says. While you work to keep my home safe, Carol Danvers and I will find you a new one. And then as he's looking right at graphic, he says,

you keep your word, I'll keep mine. So to recap, Nick Fury did not find the scrolls a home. For three decades, he did not do the thing that he said he was going to do here. But he did ask them to live in disguise as his secret workforce. for an indefinite period of time. I don't think, now, Talos is also in the wrong, which we'll talk about shortly, but I don't think you really get to be mad

about scrolls infiltrating society when you initially encouraged them to do that for your ins. And I think this feeds right into what we were talking last week about, I promise, this week I come armed with only one John LaGere quote, which I will read later, but like, that's,

Lecore concept of the consummate spy. The consummate spy is a fucker. Like, you know, it's not like, it's not a hero. It's not someone to look up to. This is someone who will promise you one, you know, how many times on slow horses alone, Mallory, have we watched Gary Olman promise someone something only to absolutely fuck them a minute later? Do you know what I mean?

It's like, this is, this is the archivorces. type. And so we've been thinking for a long time of Nick Pury as a, as a hero. We've seen him do heroic things. He avengelled. He, he, he, he, avengedle, he assembled the Avengers. Like, you know, like, this is, I love Avengell. That's great. I love Avengling. Um, but like, but, you know, like Nat, certainly he has red on his ledger up and down, up and down the shores. That's what happens when you're a spy, when you're a spy. So, right. I think this is a perfect, thing to hang on him you know versus someone

like like Steve Rogers who I'm like unwilling to hang him just kind of forgetting about Sharon Carter in Falconer Winter Soldier I'm like absolutely not

you're not allowed to tarnish that hero that way Nick Fury is a man like born to exist in this kind of complicated um say anything to get

what you want for whatever you consider the greater good to be, right? Right. I think that that's why the genuine depth of affection, obviously the literal marriage that has revealed to us in this episode is a new data point that only exacerbates this sensation that we already have. But the depth of sincere affection between Fury and Talos really complicates that. Because if it were just the cold calculus of Spycraft, right?

and these people were, it was a utilitarian thing. I need you to achieve my end. That would be, that would be one thing. But he cares about these people. These relationships are real. I still feel like these, like, former Cold War spies will do this to their friends as well, do you know, as their, you know, agents, whatever. Some of those friends. Assets, that's the spy word I wanted, asset.

Assets. Some of those friends slash assets, avengell have. done some stuff too. And we learn about some of the things that Talos and the scrolls have done that Fury wasn't aware of. There is a long scene on a train in a compartment on a train from Moscow to Warsaw

before we get this exchange between Talos and Fury. We have this really wonderful moment where the soldiers are checking the compartments trying to see who's in their Furious hiding. And Talos assumes the form of an absolute goddess. He's just stunningly beautiful Russian woman. And do we want to just do the,

who are you taking to the fracken pod segment here? 100%. Like, how could it be anyone but Talos flirting with a Russian soldier on a train? Like, what else could we possibly ask for? And I just love that you could, like, you could, I mean, I like to think that all the scrolls, are good actors. This is like part of what they do, but you could definitely see Ben Mendelsohn doing this.

Do you know what I mean? I am glad you mentioned that because this in particular made me think of that moment in Captain Marvel where at the Rambo home, they're asking how this works, right? And then like later in the spaceship could you become a filing cabinet, all the stuff. And one of the things that he says is, dare I say talent? Like it takes talent to do it at this level. That was just absolutely fantastic. Did you have an email that you wanted to share here, Joanna? I sure do. This is a really important question, and it comes from Hannah, speaking of the fracking pods.

Hannah asks, are the scrolls naked? Are they, though? They seem to be about to change their clothes when they change their skin, when Taylorus becomes the woman the train, for example. Do they have special shapeshifting fabrics, or is that just their skin? we've seen scrolls in like for example bed meddles and captain marvel whatever like we've seen them go from being in civvies to being a scroll like in their human face to being in the same clothes and or when we see them land initially in the water they were wearing clothing like I think it's just shape-fifting clothing though I'd love to imagine that they're all just running around starkers and like what we

think is a skirt or a shirt and tie or whatever is actually just nothing. You think it's bad when you're Bruce Banner and you become the Hulk and you just shred your entire wardrobe. But imagine that happening to a million people. Amazing. That would be tough. These are the important questions that we like to contemplate. Thank you, Anna, for that important question.

Back in the forum of Ben Mendelson, he joins Samuel L. Jackson, Nick Fury, in the train compartment. Love a scene in a train compartment job. I love a train. Absolutely. Absolutely. You're going to love the new Mission Impossible movie. I just can't wait. I just love a train. I simply can not wait. And Fury begins talking to Talos about his past. He talks about his mom, the trains that they took to Detroit. And Talos has this like really sincere, sweet expression and smile on his face as he's getting to hear Nick Fury share information about his past, about his life. especially struck by that look on Ben Mend Menelson's face. And I felt like I've never seen him do that even when he's played like nice characters, which he rarely does. And then I ran an interview where Samuel Jackson said that was like a story from his own childhood.

Like the story of the train and the chicken and the food and the shoebox and all that sort of stuff was just like a story that he told from his own childhood. And so I think Ben Mendelsohn was like especially like, this is your story. Like that's cool. Thanks for sharing it sort of thing. I love that. That's amazing. It's really rare across the entire history of the MCU that we have gotten to hear Nick Fury talk about his life. I mean, we can think, of course, of another winter soldier scene, right? The elevator scene with Cap where Nick Fury is talking about his grandfather. There are a couple other little moments. Of course, we get some in Captain Marvel when Carol and Nick are bonding. I always love the scene where he's like saying, that everyone exclusively calls him Fury, and then, of course, the Nicholas utterance is what tips him off to Keller being a scroll.

But this was just like a really lovely thing, this whole stretch here. And one of the things that he says is that his mother's favorite game was tell me something I don't know. And that if he was lying, the fact that he was lying revealed a truth.

And this is, of course, priming this conversation with Talos about, tell me what I don't know about the fall of scrollos. Tell me what I don't know about the scrolls who escaped. He believes that there's information that he doesn't have and he wants to get it here. Here's what he learns. Steve, please play this clip. They're here. Who's here?

All of us. Wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You're telling me there's a million scrolls walking amongst us right now. Have you lost your reptilian-ass mind? I sent out the call, and every scroll that isn't in Emperor George's colony, they answered. You lied to me. Hey, we were being hunted across the universe.

I had two choices. I could let my people be annihilated or summon them here to Earth. What would you have done? This ain't about me. Okay, so we're about 12-ish minutes into the second episode of Secret Invasion, and we are balancing the I have fucked up in some colossal way scales here. Each of these guys has done something wrong or failed to follow through on some part of their bargain. Fury didn't get the scrolls at home.

Taylor's lied and infiltrated planet Earth on a mass scale. Whoops. All right. It happens. It happens, especially if you allow the scroll to come here in the first place and encourage them to assume false identities. Did you think it was odd that Nick Fury was? wouldn't have considered this risk.

Yeah. Like that this shock. A big L. Big L for Nick, honestly. Like, hey guys, why don't you sneakily infiltrate Earth? And they're like, yeah, okay, we're going to do that on a massive scale. And then they keep doing it and he's like, what? You don't run this past me. We need to talk about something really quickly.

And it is something that you and I have a shared fascination with. And it is the way that Ben Mendelsohn has decided to pronounce this name that in the closed captioning is D-R-O-G-G-G- G.E, which may or may not be a reference to a character in the comics, D-R-O-A-Pos-R-O-A-Pos-R-G-E. We'll talk about that in a second. But Ben Menelson is pronouncing it, drudge. That's what I heard. What did you hear? Drosha?

I listened to this so many times because I was-so-many. I was, like, rant listening to that. The difference between what comes out of his mouth and what we are reading on the page is just incredible. But anyway, Emperor Drudge. It's astonishing. In the comics, this character is a high priest that's involved in the scientific experience. Essentially, like, a Reed Richards-esque character for the scrolls, and he's, you know, the one making the super scrolls. Something of a scientist himself?

You know what I mean? And so the question is, is this just a comic book nod mention? I mean, it's wild to mention that there is an emperor scroll out there somewhere. Is this just a one-off casual mention? is this character drudge or however you want to pronounce the name drudge drudge

drouge um is this character involved in you know graphics scientific experiments that we find out about later does it have anything to do

with the Dalton's etc etc so right or is it just like a little little tossed off you know comic book reference tune in

all of those are possible could definitely be involved with the Super Scroll plot, possibly just a wink to comic readers. Could also be a wink to comic readers paired with, okay, this is a way to make sure the audience knows that this isn't literally it.

Not every single scroll in the universe is here on planet. Just a million of them. Just literally a million of them. That's okay. Do you think the Roy kids, you know, we've moved on from the 100? Should we hit them up and pitch the million?

Bightlets of news? Just like... A lot of news broadcasts in this episode. I think it's worth considering. I don't think Kendall's taking any calls right now. But it's possible that Roman is open to do possibilities. Oh, my God. The next part of the exchange is the opening clip, what we opened today's pod with.

Talos invoking Fury blipping, his post-blip hesitancy to be present, to engage, to be there, not only literally, but in a way that counted. right? Does this mean, Joe, how are you interpreting this? Did the million that Taylor's summoned arrive during the blip? Or did they arrive after while Fury was gone while he was on Sabre? I want to say after, but that's still, that's kind of a short window, as far as we can tell. Either way, this is like pretty, this is a recent. I think it's recent. And I wanted to talk about, okay, so this is where I'm going to deploy my one and only I promised John Lickory quote today. And talk about the idea of Nick Fury, the pre-bri. blip snap is what I prefer.

Pre-snap, Nick Fury, and the post-snap, Nick Fury. So in 2017, John Lickory wrote a legacy of spies where he took his, like, Coldware-era spies and put them in, like, the modern world to sort of examine how that would go, right? So of that story, John Lick-Rae said, I was able to set up with my characters a situation where the past came back to challenge the present. What was the past? The past was a total ideological commitment to the cause of anti-communism.

Communism. What is the present? A space. A really haunted place where we have no ideology. Where the one thing that joins us is a common fear. Where social democracy is being assailed from the east and the west at the same time.

Where the Europe that Smiley, George Smiley, his character, where the Europe that Smiley loves is shrinking is under siege, and we Brits, of all awful stupid things, are walking out on Europe just at the same moment when they need us the most. Right? So this is like a smiling in the age of Brexit is the question. And by the way, we get a Brexit nod in this episode. Sure do. But so this idea of like what we've seen Fury undergo two, three, I would say, radical idea shaking moments. It's one, people from out of space are here, right? Two, Hydra has been here the whole time.

Three, he got snapped away for several years while other people stayed behind. But I would say that snap, that before and after snap is what this show is particularly invested in in terms of understanding how Nick Fury's ideology has changed. And so I think that's just like a really interesting concept to think about like that. Cold War mentality that like I understand black and white what's right and wrong and now I'm living in a fear space. Like when we see Nick Fury later in this episode crumpled on a bench, you know what I mean? Like that's yeah after the road scene. That's a that's a living in just like a constant fear reactive space, which is understandable after everything he's been through. I love that. Have you found in your in your readings, not to make you sound like

kind of Roy, but in your readings. Any Lakeray quotes that explain how all of planet Earth failed to notice a million scrolls arriving? Anything on that? Anything popping? I cannot refer to you to John Lackeray text, but I would refer you to the TV series Falcon and the Winter Soldier, where, like, we found out that like borders vanished, homeless. I feel like that's where you can easily smuggle an extra million or so.

to the planet. I feel like the spaceship still has to land at some point. On the water somewhere? I feel like that's not hard. Sure, yeah. Maybe it's hard to notice things in the oceans of planet Earth with like baby celestial's just hanging out. I'm so sorry.

That's a little later. It's still there. Planet Earth in the MCU. What a place. Speaking of, when Taylor says that, hey, yeah. Yeah, sure. I secretly brought a million scrolls to Earth, but like, here's the great news. I genuinely believe that humans and scrolls can coexist, that we can make this our home without disrupting anything, that we can all live together in harmony. Fury says humans can't coexist

with each other, Talos. You've been here long enough to know that. We've been at war with each other since we could walk upright. There's not enough rumor tolerance on this planet for another species. So that theme of tolerance very present in this episode, clearly is central focus of the series. And this is a fascinating thing in general. The Midnight Boys, they had a wonderful discussion about the New Asgard question, Joe, right? Why everyone's fine with New Asgard and the Asgardians setting up shop over in Norway, but this would be an unthinkable thing. So what do you think of the new Asgard element here? I like the distinction that I've seen some people make between the Asgardians who look humanoid and the scrolls who don't.

And the way in which... That's something alien is scarier. And that's one of the things the show is interesting. Let's just think about the way the United States, let's say. If we're going to ignore Kingsley Benedere's warning to put too much world application on the show, the way we treat some immigrants versus others. Do you know what I mean? That there are some immigrants who are like the good, you know, the good, quote unquote,

and some who are the bad and we want to keep away from our borders. That's not my politics. But those are like talking points that we hear. And so I think, you know, I'm inclined to think that perhaps they kind of forgot about Newark Asgard when they were putting down this plot point. but I think you could sort of make the case. Danny kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet and the MCU kind of forgot about New Africa?

I think you know that's what I'm thinking every time I say kind of forgot. This is a lot of boats in both. Just a good old fashion, David Benny how special. Anything else on the... No, I just want to... I want to talk about our favorite scene from the entire episode.

Maybe even our favorite scene in all of Marvel Disney Plus TV dumb. Other than like obviously like actually problematic scenes in in the history of Marvel. This scene with Maria Hill's mom and Fury is one of the worst I can remember. Like with apologies that I thought this was whirline unwatchable. What happened to? And what is stunning about this?

Because like it's not just badly written, but it is like badly performed. And the thing is Juliet Stevenson, who is. playing Maria Hill's mom is an incredible actress, like fantastic, if you've never seen, like, truly madly deeply with Alan Rickman or she's in the, like, one of the Paltrow Emma, and she's incredible in that one. She's in Bennett, like, Beckham. Like, she's been in, like, a million fantastic films is an incredible actresses of the stage and screen.

So what the fuck happened here? And I, like, part of it, I think, has to be, part of it has to be asking her to do an American accent, which she cannot do. So, like, the vowels are all over the shop on this one. Like, it is, if you thought Richard Dormer was bad in episode one, like, just let the British actors be British. Maria Hill could have an English mom. Who cares, you know? Or cast an American, either way.

But not this. Never like this. I actually was like, is she supposed to be British? Because this scene takes place in the UK. And the accent was bleeding in such a confusing way, particularly in the platitude line, which was just a remarkable, remarkable moment. Very, very strange. And then in addition to that, you know, in theory, right, the scene is there to grapple with and confront the cost of secrecy, the cost of living this kind of life, when you have to

stare into the face, a person who is carrying the weight of the choices around you. Like when Tony has his encounter with Charlie Spencer's mom, right, with Miriam Sharp in Captain America's Civil War when he's about to get on the elevator in the impact that that has on him. Okay, a real person, a lot of people died in Sukovia, but I had to, I had a moment where somebody who lost their child, because of, in part, things I did. Like, I had to, I had to face that and now I have to carry that. We didn't know Miriam Sharp any longer than we have known Elizabeth Hill. It's one scene, but the impact that they had, it couldn't be more distinct. And, like, Alphrey Woodard is an incredible actress, but I, like, you just,

If you have not seen her, you just have to take my word for it. That Julianne Stevenson is an incredible actress. So this is just like an absolutely bizarre exchange. We did get an email about this from Camille because, like, in addition to the bizarre acting, the terrible accent, like everything that's happening here. Because I don't think Samuel Jackson is good in this scene either, by the way. The line that she gives on her way out, the button of the scene is, look, I don't know what Maria died for out there. but whatever it was, don't let it be for nothing, right? So to follow up on the conversation we had about Maria Hill's death last week, Camille writes,

like, I would love for you to talk more about Maria Hill's fridging if is, and then, like, they did it, okay. Did they have to underline it with so much red pen? That whole, you better make her death worth it, was so on the nose. Goodness gracious. Couldn't they have pretended at least a little bit that this was not what was going on? I'm already so sad that Kobe Smolders won't be in the MCU anymore. They had had a whole scene about how. how she was killed to hurt fury.

I'm a sucker for Marvel shows, and I still rolled my eyes so hard. So I completely agree with this. Like, we talked about the levels of this last week, but, like, you know, female characters will die in things. Not every example of a female character dying is fridging, but this is where it's like she literally died to hurt slash motivate her, hit him, and then someone says, make it worth something.

It's like right out of the textbook of what fridging is. It's bizarre. Yeah. Also, you know, we talked about this, and this was last week, and it was a much, it was a bigger issue overall in the premiere than it was in the second episode. But like how often the show felt like it needed to really strongly lead us and guide us, right? And your Nick Fierrez, Maria believed in you, she would have followed you to the gates of hell and back. Do platitudes. Do platitudes.

Don't you be one of those bastards who gives me a platitude when I'm looking for you. for the troughs. Fucking hell. Oh, my God. But like, we don't need that your Nick Fury. Maria believed in you line because it was so much more potent

to see the conversation between them last week where she told him he had led him down. It wasn't she would follow him blindly to the gates of hell. It was so much more complicated than that. Horrible. Horrible scene.

Really rough. Several actually great scenes in this episode. A number of them. Horrible. tarmac scene of all the tarmac scenes we've seen. I almost am like, how did the scene make the episode? And I wonder if it's like they felt like they had to check the box of, oh, we've gotten a lot of flack before of not having like a funeral or some sort of send off for these other characters. Let's do this.

And it's like, this is not it. This is not it. If I had seen the final cut of this episode and I were literally anyone who would work for Marvel, I'd be like, cut that out. And never let it see the letter day. and apologize A platitude And apologize to Julia Stevenson

For making For doing that tour Don't you be one of them Oh boy Yeah they couldn't They couldn't be arced To write her a good scene Is that a good application?

Oh man Okay Well we've talked about that scene now Now it's time to talk about Some fair and balanced news coverage Yeah FXN news You love a little Fox News

comp in your in your MCU. I know you do. We see a lot of coverage, Joe, of the Unity Day bombings. We learned that 2000 are dead so far. We hear later in the episode that number's going to rise, rise, rise. 4,000. Heavy Air courts, Martin Wallace, right? The scroll Brogan, who has taken on Martin Wallace's form, has been IDed in the coverage as the leader of this attack.

This is all going exactly the way that Gravick intended. And then we see a bunch of folks who we will later learn inside of the same episode, are members of the scroll council. We see the UK Prime Minister, I'm just going to call her Pam. Pamela Lotto. Pammy, little Pammy. Our gal Pamela.

Okay. NATO Secretary General Sergio Caspani. He doesn't get a fun nickname. So we've got Pam and Serge. Yeah, okay, great. FXN news anchor Chris Stearns. This was a thrill. Welcome to the MCU, Christopher McDonald.

This was a thrill of him. An absolute thrill. Though I will say I was slightly, I was interested by, I was slightly like stumped for a minute by the way that he voiced the, what is in essence, the truth he says, this has got to be, this has got false flag written all over it. So he's not misleading people. He's actually saying what happened as part of this larger,

gambit to stitch together some sort of narrative out in the world. Is there an email you wanted to share here? Yeah. I mean, a couple things going on, right? So first, okay, we get this email from Hunter. It says, in our real world, we know that the talking heads that this show was copying regularly spread misinformation for the purpose of fomenting political anger of viewers. But here he's being framed as actually being correct when compared to the

to the authority figures. That kind of made me uncomfortable. Did either of you all pick up on that, or am I reading too much into it? I hear what Hunter is saying, but I, if our roadie is a scroll theory, like, pans out, I think this is an important, like, breadcrumb on the trail to say that they have scrolls on every side of the ideological argument.

Do you know what I mean? Like, because if he, if he, if he, He's giving the other side. Because then later we will see Rody versus the NATO counsel, right? And he's arguing with them. And so, but like we know that half of them at least are scrolls. And so why would he be arguing with them? And it's like, well, I think if they've invaded every corner, they're having these, like, public arguments for show to, like, you know, be on all sides of things.

They've got to play out the long con. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And seeing all of the different figures, a prime minister and a native. figure, a high-profile news anchor, like it does give us a sense when we see them at the council table later of how deep the infiltration already is, even though we don't have the full list. Like you're saying, okay, okay, well, every kind of walk of life, every ideology, every country, every job, we're going to have some sort of presence already, maybe not inside just the council,

but in those one million scrolls, Dales brought in in the last, years without anybody noticing. Great stuff. Should we talk about the council scene more? Because it's right after this. I loved it. It is, uh, we get there. I love this scene.

Thought this scene was fantastic. Gaia is driving a, uh, very tired. I want to say, I think Gaia, I think Gaia also looks tired. I think everyone, everyone's sleepy. It's hard work. Everyone who is making camp at a, like, nuclear facility is not getting great sleep. That is my. assessment here. So Gaia drives Gravick to this council meeting. He notes that he was not invited,

which is interesting because we had learned that he took Taylor's seat on the council, but he has not been embraced. We see very clearly by the group at large. I'm sure you can come up with a sports analogy for this? But can we talk about going from not invited to scroll general in the space of like eight minutes? I mean, he had the, he and Pam, they had workshops. It's a survivor analogy. He had a secret alliance. Oh, isn't it always?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, okay. Yeah. Who has like the knowledge is power advantage that they're going to break out at the right time at tribal and dunk all over big search? And Shirley got voted out, basically. By the way, I need an update. We can do it later, but I do need an update on your survivor viewing.

We'll talk about it. Yeah. Okay. Gaia, not a lot in, Joe. Not a lot in the room for the council meeting. She's pissed. She feels very much on the outside of everything's going on, right? Yeah, absolutely.

She's asking him questions on the ride, by the way, like asking how he knew Fury would be there to get back to that point you made at the beginning of the pod about where are her allegiance is and how is the show handling that. Okay, so she betrayed her father, didn't actually use the decoy bag. She's still on Gravick's side,

but she's asking a lot of questions. And then, of course, later, everything with her infiltration of the lab in her computer research on the Secret Scroll mission. Secret Scroll, that's our bit. Super Scroll mission. She's obviously trying to find out whatever she can about Gravick. Is she, in your mind right now, trying to amass information to share?

Is she amassing it for herself because she hasn't yet decided what she wants to do? What do you think? It's really, I really think they're trying to hide the ball on this from us, so it's hard for me to say, but the two clear possibilities are she's pissed enough about being on the outside that, you know, she's either trying to, like, put herself in a position of leadership or something like that, or she's softened enough by the things that her father has said, that she's like, I want to make sure I fully understand this organization that I've signed up for that has allegedly killed my mother. So, you know what I mean? And I think Gravick, who is able to sniff out, like,

you know, anyone who has given up information pretty easily is very suspicious of her at the same time. Yes. A lot of plances from Gravick in Gaia's direction over the course of this episode of particularly notable ones in the car ride back from the meat locker at the end of the episode. Speaking of Gravick Show, in this scene where he was

fantastic, riveting, treats us to some incredible villain who has a point. MCU stuff here. But again, like, this is not what Kingsley Benedere is. Like, to him, it's all, like, smoke. It's fascinating, honestly, to me. Yeah.

I'll be curious to see if it feels that way at the end, because here it certainly seems sincere. Now, is it just part of the tactic? I think something like you don't punish a man by giving him what he wants. that was chilling. Very icy sociopath sort of shit. Yeah, I love that. That line was amazing when they were still in the car. At the table, we see our three new pals who we just talked about in the news footage sequence.

And then Shirley and Jack, we don't know, Shirley plays a big role in the subsequent events here. Jack does not. We don't know what their roles in society are yet. I assume we'll find out. I was curious to ask you, because we know that the, This was the seat that Talos lost, that he was exiled, booted from the council. Is your read on that that he would have been with these exact people in these exact disguises on the council? In other words, does he know, for example, that the British prime minister is a scroll, and he has not told Nick Fury that. And if so, how does that influence your read on how Talos is conducting himself? I do want to shout out the fact that, like, our pal, front of the pod, Ryan Erie of our screen crush,

has this whole theory that he is very attached to that, like, Tayloros is actually like the big bad of the whole series. I'm not on board with that theory, though I love and respect Ryan in his theories. But I think he is caught between two worlds as, like, every single one of these scrolls are. And so I think he does know some things that he's not sharing with fury because he doesn't want, like, he wants as few scrolls as possible to be harmed or whatever. in all of this, right? So, like, I don't think he wants to reveal the depths of certain things.

So, yeah, I mean, like, we certainly know that he knows. And at the end of the day, his primary mission is to find his people of home. Oh, yeah. He just thinks, you know, maybe not by killing 4,000 humans. But also, you know, we saw that in episode one when he did not want to shoot the scroll that he's fighting and Nick Fury does, right? So he is, like, protective of all scrolls to a point, right? Right. Right. So the Legion of Dead that you just mentioned, this is something that Gravix's councilmates bring up. Surely notes that these terrorist attacks have severely undermine the stability that this council seeks to preserve. That was how she put it now. Ultimately, at the end, she will be the one who does not bend the knee, who leaves, who calls Talos. Shout out Bobby Barathean. I mean, like, I loved this because Serge is the one who's willing to, like, run his mouth.

But Shirley is the one who actually has a line she will not cross, right? Yes, exactly. And Gravick has some lines, too, including everything that he's witnessing in this room presently and the way that all of his fellow council members have chosen to live their lives. He delivers a true, like, withering indictment of their current behavior. Steve, can we hear this clip? I see you all dressed up in the man's final. drinking the man's wine, playing the man's game, using the man's fork and knife.

Better to behave as a human than is a dog. I quite like dogs. In fact, I prefer them. Dogs aren't hypocrites. And they don't lie. They don't lock each other up in cages. They don't pimp, poison. They don't go out of their way to degrade and destroy their own habitat.

that a naive reading of human history. It's the only reading of human history. The clip ends before a search says, Don't give me platitude. It's really great stuff from Kingsley Benedere here. And I thought in addition to just the strength of the performance, it's interesting that this is like in some ways much the same point that Fury is making, right? That humans can't find peace.

They can't make progress. Their nature is to destroy and oppose. Our NATO guy, Serge, he has a lot of questions, right? And it was interesting to hear Gravix switch to their native tongue for the next part of his pitch. This is when he's saying that Fury promised them, and he knows that they were all there, right? So it means that everybody who's at that table, everybody who's on the council, was back in that 97 timeline, part of that initial group

who Fury brought in. You keep your word, I'll keep mine, but that never happened. No, Fury abandoned us. The humans cast us aside. I promise you, Earth will be our home

because I will take it. And then he switches back to English to say, I think it's a war. I think it's a war. No, do it the right way, Mallory. Bang the desk. I think it's a war.

Boy, hurt a little bit. It reminds me when I, When I fist pumped Danny Kelly when the Ravens re-s signed Lamar Jackson and got like a shoulder contusion. I'm so sorry that you just splintered your bird bones. I really apologize that you should consider more calcium. But Joe, you feel how personal it is.

How personal it is for gravity. Fury abandon us. Yes. Like I think that, again, I think if we think of this as like in bad dad terminology, a theme that you and I are quite familiar with. Like this is a, this is perfect. rhetoric for that. Can you take us through the first but not the last exchange in the episode about the Avengers? Because they come up here. Our guy, Serge, brings up the Avengers. Thank you, Serge. What if they return, Joanna? I'm sorry. I was, I was, I must say it. Okay, okay, okay,

okay. Okay. Let me do it. Okay. Surge says, what if the Avengers return? And this is a fascinating line for us, right? Because we're like, okay, this is confirmation that the Avengers that we've been, like the pseudo-avanger gatherings that we've seen in the margins of various films since Endgame have not been like official Avengers gathering. Like we haven't really had that passed down to us as concrete information, right? That's fascinating. And then, especially given that we're building again to an Avengers, so what is going to be the thing that is going to officially avengeal the Avengers again? You know what I mean? Like, I mean, something like Kang, perhaps, who knows?

But, and who's going to be the one to avenge them, you know? Is it going to be still Nigeria or is it someone else? Like, is it, you know, is Dr. Strange going to stop traveling the, you know, the cosmos with Charlize their own long enough to do it? Who knows? But Crowick is like, you dummy, sir, do you think I haven't thought about that, right? He says, you don't think I've thought about that. Put your faith in me and I promise your loyalty will be.

repaid. And this is another hint we get towards the Super Scroll, you know, plot where we've got not one, but two scientists named Dalton on the case, you know, to turn the scrolls into super scrolls. Yes. Excited to talk about the Super Scrolls shortly. We, I was, it was impossible. I thought in the next sequence where Pam steps up. And nominates Gravick for Scroll General not to think of Argy Palpatine. This was such an unlimited power stretch. And this reveal that they were in cahoots, a literal chop to the throat for surge. Brutal.

The bending of the knee. They call this sub, it's the call to, quote, submit. That was really interesting phrasing. There's been interesting phrasing throughout. Like, submit is one. And there's the Harvest, which is capital age and the subtitles. Yeah. Like later.

So, yeah. Fascinating. I liked with, because obviously we already are thinking about a division among the scrolls, which of course there would be why would every single scroll behave the same way, want the same thing with the Telos and Gravick factions. But even inside of this group then to see like the fractures within the factions and how many different splinters, how many different goals and desires will there be. I hope that we learned some more about sure.

soon. I mean, obviously she has enough of a relationship with Talos from their time together, the council and whatever else, to give him a call. He asked her to set up this meet. The other line, though, before we leave the scene, then I just really wanted to shout out was because Gravick is, like, impressed, right, when she makes this stand. And it's clear that not a lot of people have the courage to challenge him in this way. And he says, if I had another hundred like you, I could take on the universe. I love this line too and like go in peace, sister, right? But like I think the, I think it begs the question, did he send Shirley off, like, knowing that she would go tell Talos, right?

Tell Talas, I want him to know it was me. I want him to know that I'll meet. Plattitude. Yeah, exactly. Let's go back to terrorist HQ. Okay. Are we to stick with Terrace HQ or do we want to go with something our listener Brad suggested, which is Chernob scroll. Absolutely remarkable. She's like, Chernope scroll for the name of the scroller-er-er-rist base.

Chernope-Sroll is strong. Yeah, Scrolerorist is not as strong. Okay. But also our listener, Nicholas, had an interesting question about the location of Trinob scroll. He said, while watching Secret Invasion, I was thinking that the scrolls probably chose the nuclear plant as their base because humans can't easily go there, right? Which offers them protection. Howevskis. The people they kidnapped and who's... I just would like to stay for the record that Nicholas did not write Howevskis. And that needs to be made clear.

However, you want to be boring about it. However, the people they kidnapped and who's like this as they took over are human. And as I understand it, they're being kept alive in special pods. The fracking pods. Does that mean they slowly become contaminated and will most likely die? I'm not sure how dangerous it is to stay in a nuclear plant that has presumably been shut down for a long time. But it must be dangerous enough for humans to keep the scrolls secluded. Would the death of one of the people kept at the facility

Have any impact on the capacity of the scrolls Who took their license? Make this to impersonate them? I would be interested to hear what you think about this matter. I think it's unlikely that something will happen to them Because it would be sloppy of the scrolls To not consider the danger that radiation may pose to their hostages. So that's a fascinating question.

That is interesting. I don't think that like the death of the human body means anything to the scroll form presuming that like the harvest bond or whatever like is a one-time thing. I think the only thing it shuts off is your ability to continue to like, search the mind like a hard drive, right? I mean, in theory, they've absorbed everything already, but maybe there's some aspect of like navigating the connection while there's an active tether to the brain.

And all of a sudden, like, Rode will forget what Nick Fury's favorite drink is. Still know it was bourbon here. Unlike Sonia. No, she knew she just didn't want it. It's just the bottom shelf fist. It's still iconic. You know, we do learn in the first episode that the reason they're using, part of the reason they're using these plants is because they're off the grid, right?

Because they are dangerous to people, but the radiation's not dangerous to scrolls. I guess my feeling on this is like, sure, some scrolls don't have ill intentions and aren't terrorists, But once you've put somebody in a fracking pod and have taken over their life, I don't really think you give a shit what happens to them. Well, I think you would only give a shit what happens to them if you like still need. Because why keep them in the fracking pod otherwise? They're just, there's thumb drives for them right now. That's it. But I'm just saying like, if you've already downloaded everything, then you don't need to keep the body.

But if you need to constantly act like, you know, plug in. to the drive to get more info, then you need to keep those host body alive. And if you need to keep those host body alive. Has anybody checked to see if the room they're keeping them in is like a really, really, really large version of the fridge from Crystal Skull? It's just completely projects you from.

It's not helping a secret invasions case for you to compare it to the worst Indiana Jones movie. I'm excited to talk about Crystal Skull tomorrow. Are we? Guess who's making the notes tomorrow? Me. So guess what we're not going to talk about. It will come up.

It will come up at some point. What? Okay, so Joe, when they return to this power plant. Chernobyl scroll, yeah. Turnobscroll. As those on the know have long referred to it. Everyone cheers. Everyone cheers for graphic.

I thought this was interesting because we had that whole piece of the first episode that was like, most of the people here are just seeking refuge. Not everyone's a warrior, but I guess everyone loves murder? They're just kids who like to play soccer. What is this round of applause for? If not the bombing.

Cheer uproariously for the death of 4,000 people. It's just. This was really fucked up, wasn't it? Quite sweet. It's quite sweet, actually. We just like to make scroll wine. Do you think the scroll vittners were there applauding murder? And do you think that's really in keeping with these sort of like wine, you know, viticulture in general?

I don't think they applaud murder usually. I don't know enough. about winemaking. You did mention the footy, the soccer. It's possible there was just like a great goal kick right out of you. And that's what they were cheering for. Sure, sure, sure. And then when he says,

expertly executed corner. When he says to that young woman who we've literally never seen before, like this is impossible without you, he meant the goal, the football goal. Exactly. Getting on the board. Yeah. Can we talk about her for a second? I will, this is from the comics,

so it's fair game, but just in case you don't want to hear something from the comics, hit the fast forward, the 15 second fast forward twice. We'll keep it very fast here. So credited as Krega, this is a comics character, but also a Super Scroll. So did you read this interaction as just a thing that Gravick says to work the room? Or as like, okay, this is an important person who either is already involved in the Super Scroll initiative or is about to volunteer to... I mean, if it's...

I mean, it's just odd storytelling to, like, drop this person here and not let us know. who she is. And like, but given that she's credited, like, it has a name in the credits, like, that seems like it matters. Let me ask you the more important question. Okay. Do you think they call their wine Cabernet Scrovignon? Like, is that?

Wow. I hope so. Or is it, or do they have that and then also Scrovinio Blanc? Like, you can either. Fantastic. Here's where we're going next. Maybe not out of the Zoom, but into the secret lab. I'm wondering if you think that our guy, Pagan, who Gaia follows, and the Dalton's, the Doctors

Dalton, are in even more dire need of corrective eyewear than I am, because not since, Anakin and Padme stood barely concealed behind a pillar in Revenge of the Sith. Has somebody done such a poor job of attempting to stay hidden from view? and yet they have no idea she's in their secret lab. There were so many, like, consoles for her to crouch behind. She just standing there. And, like, grant you, Amelia Clark is, like, one foot nothing. You know what I mean?

Like, she's a very small individual. But, guy, you still got to crouch a little. Like, come on. Unbelievable. This was astonishing to me. Wild. I also wanted to mention, Joe, you know, noted last week that it seemed like an overt lie, like this idea of not being aware

of who all the agents were. But this scene does cement for us, as does the subsequent computer scene. Like, there are things that Gaia does not know. That's true. So... But she still betrayed her dad. Something? She still definitely betrayed her dad last week, you know?

You know, Thor voice. Families can be tough, right? Families can be tough. What are the Dalton's doing, Joe? what's going on in here? I believe, based on context clues, that they are hunting down DNA of various superpowered beings and things.

They're looking for severed hands and, you know, branches and whatever they can find, right? And they're not having, like, a highly successful time of it, right? Because Rosa, Dr. Dalton, the wife half of this duo. I like that her husband is completely silent, but he is there. Dr. Dalton, she's like, you don't have it. And he says, Pagan says, the harvest wasn't there.

And she's like, our DNA selection remains very limited. And, like, we should be past this phase by now, right? And he says, Gravick has given me multiple locations for the harvest, all of them empty. And he says, our leader, right? Our leader is fallible. Like, he's not always right about everything. which I thought was interesting. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, hinting at a little bit of a rift maybe between Gravick and Pagan. Do you want to talk about the, even though it's not the next scene, what Gaia discovers on the computer now and talk about all the secret scroll stuff right here? Once again, terrible spycraft from Gaia, right? When like, we'll. Why is this computer so old? Can I ask that? I feel like they were like, well, we're in Scroll Noble.

This computer was here. Apparently it survived a bunch of radiation. barely. I mean, this was astonishing. And then all she has to do is type like, I'm Dr. Rosa Dalton into the computer and she gets access to all the files. Great stuff.

Because Rosa, if you're, like, in charge of creating these super scroll machine and this level of innovation, I'd like to talk to you about your password protection. IT would like a word. But I think it's really fascinating because Gravick was not like, why are you on this computer?

Right? He was like, what are you looking up on this computer? So it's not a computer she's not allowed to have access to. It's just like these, yeah, there are securities all over the shop, honestly. But what are Mallory Rubin the four pieces that Dr. Dalton has managed to acquire? So here's what we glimpse on this screen. We should say as context that the comment. the Super Scroll power absorption is connected to the Fantastic Four.

And so what the MCU, who are not able to use the Power's of the Fantastic Four in the show, clever. Have to do is stitch that together, which they have done in a pretty clear way in three out of the four of these. And the fourth one I am slightly perplexed by, we've got Groot, our guy Groot. We get to see some of the familiar little terms on the screen here. It makes us think, I think, of the Groot in the lineup on Zandar in the first Guardian's film, seeing Planet X, Flora Clausus, et cetera. Can I briefly talk about something from the trailer?

I know not everybody likes to hear stuff from the trailer, but it's out there. It's in the trailer. So fast forward 30 seconds. Dying to talk about this from the trailer. Let's do it. Do you want to do it at the end of this or just right here in the Groot part? Maybe it? Let's do it in, like, the Easterer? section? I don't know. Let's do it here.

Skip ahead. Skip ahead. Is it a trailer? Skip ahead if you don't want to hear this. We see in the trailer graphic with these super long extending grout arms. So, obviously they're replicating the Mr. Fantastic stretch power here, but like this is the grute element of

the Secret Scroll machine. So graphic takes the who do you think it's, who do you think Pagan is going to like do extremis or something like that? So this is the other thing I wanted to ask you, read based on what we know from comics canon on what we've seen here so far that

you're getting one of these or that they will be getting all of these powers. I think at least a few. Maybe not all. Because I don't really know how much the Frostbeast will like help them at the end of the day.

And like with the harvest part too with that kind of coded exchange, is that another power from another superpower being that they want to get like a fifth element here? Or do they need more of what they have? Like, is this like a Django Fet situation where you can run out of DNA at some point? Like, I am not a geneticist nor a evil scientist.

But, okay, so here are the other things we see, Joe. Extrememus, Johnny Storm. I love an Iron Man Three. You're a huge Iron Man Three head. You love Aldrich Killian. You love AIM. You've always been a big AIM head. Regeneration, healing, but also has ever been.

Everyone who watched Iron Man 30 will recall, they become human bombs and they blow up. Stuff. I want to talk about the extremist thing when we get to the Sonia torture scene later. Have some stuff I'm eager to discuss there. We get a lovely little Earth 53 and Tara nugget here. The scrolls, of course, refer to. This is 53 back in Captain Marvel. Cole Obsidian.

So here's the thing. Colopsidian back in the MCU never thought I'd see the day. But like, you have to explain to people who are listening what you meant by here is the thing. This is the Colpcidian is their going to account for the thing. Capital T's thing. In the fantastic point. This is the severed hand, right? And here's my question.

From Infinity War. Why couldn't it be Ebony Ma? You know Ebony Ma is my favorite. I know why because Colobody Ma. Because Col Obsidian, oops, left his hand and forearm behind. Like, uh-oh. Yeah. But if anyone, if any of Thanos' kids wants to come back, for me, it's Ebony Ma or bust, honestly.

Well, who knows? The harvest continues, Joe. Who knows what awaits? And then we have Frostbees, you know? Love to always think about Yodernheim whenever we can. And crucially, because, of course, we spend time on Yodinheim with a Frostbees in the first Thor film. But where did they get this Frostbeast, D&A, Joe? You know fucking where.

The Dark World. Thor the Dark World. The dark world. Maldi occurs. Always relevant. Should that be your secret scroll name? So it's not already yet. If you're a secret scroll, can your name me Maldi accursed?

Yeah, that would be great, honestly. I'll be Jotenheim. That will be my screen. Anything on what we see here, Joe? Anything else? No, I think it's extremely, extremely clever for them to not only pick things where we can know if we decide to delve into it exactly where they might have picked up

these little odds and ends and forearms of various superpowered beings, but also to find things that mapped on to the Fantastic Four, like, that's brilliant. Except for Sue Storm. That does not work. It doesn't work. Trying to figure that one else.

I think that's a... The invisible woman and frostbees. It's a misdirect, I think. Okay. The rest of this scene with Gravick and Gaia at the computer is their discussion about loyalty, and this is where he mentions that they have a man on the inside

who located Brogan, which made me wonder if Sonia is actually part of Gravix Hive, but we're not actually quite there in the episode yet. We have to go back. We have to rewind because we went out of order here. Rody. We're at Rody. We'll come back to that.

Brody enters the arena, Joe. 27 EU heads is the Prime Minister of the UK. Brexit, baby. Oh, boy. I thought it was incredibly strange that this, like, World War III is brimming and it's Nick Fury's fault plot hinged on the idea that the entire world would switch its allegiance from America to Russia because of this Unity Day attack. This just doesn't make any sense. A weird little conference room, like, you know, it didn't seem very grand at all. Also, why would we send Rodi to this?

Like, it's, I have a lot of questions. Yeah. The small room did allow us. to really appreciate the Italian Prime Minister's wonderful hair and the shade that Slovakia was throwing. So there's that. Yeah. There's that at least.

Also, but the room was... Big Pam, really on the offensive. It was so small that when Rody put his hand over the mic to, like, say something to his assistant, who was like... They can hear you. ...equit distant behind him. I'm like, everyone can hear you make a really weird carpetball,

like, sort of reference. So, yeah. As Rody's leaving, Joe... Nick Fury calls them. Armani? Brioni. Ask to meet. Take us to Burner's Tavern.

One o'clock. As we mentioned, Rody has a bourbon waiting, unlike Sonia. Right? Yeah. Yep. Very bizarre exchange from the jump, right?

Where Rody says, don't let the relaxed ambience fool you. I'm this close to handing you over to the Russians. What? And then Furie says, we're getting your rank here colonel. It's like it's it's so bizarre and and to the point you made last week, we don't know what Nick Fear, like if the Avengers have been un-ovengled, right? Like, and Shield has been dismantled. We do not understand Nick Fury or Maria Hill's designation at all. Like we don't understand what, who are they beholden to, where is all this?

What is Sabre's connection to the larger military or government apparatus? But this whole like Nick Fury's crew is the official label for like the team that he and Hill

were running? It's just that part's very strange. Where's the like specificity? Exactly. And I find it like very weird that like you know so Rody is like attempting to blame Fury right? And he's like,

you failed to stop the attack, nearly starting World War III, turn the allies against them. This is fascinating. language because I went back and rewatch trying to figure out honor Rody is the as girl thing and like to your point about I'm trying to honor your point about end game and consider it from a post end game point of view. So I went back and rewatch. You're welcome. Rody's seen in Falcon in the Winter Soldier, right? Specifically like the walk and talk with Sam, right?

Yep. Rodi says the world's a crazy place right now. People are well, nobody's stable. Allies are now enemies, alliances are torn apart, the world's broken, everybody's just looking for somebody to fix it. Sam says, yeah, and Road says, it's a new day brother. I'll be in touch. So like, honestly, that sounds very scrawly to me, but like I think it's very interesting that like allies are now enemies, alliances are all torn apart, really echoes like what he says here to Fury, right, about like you're turning our allies against us. Like, if the scroll agenda is just constantly to undermine and tear apart and pit against

each other, Rody is certainly subtly and not so subtly pushing that agenda in all the scenes that we've seen him in. Yeah, absolutely. And another bit of Rody is definitely a secret scroll evidence. I think, once again, we'll invoke Tony Stark, if you don't mind, if you'll allow it. Because when we get the Hydra, yeah, if Hydra was a bunch of green guys who could shape shift into your daddy exchange and Fury thinks he's telling Roady about the scrolls for the first time and we learn that Rodi knows, what do we learn about when he found out? He says he was brief 15 years ago. Well, if this show set in 2025, right, that puts us right before or right around the events of Iron Man 2. And while I have no trouble believing

that plenty of government officials, military officials, people in positions of power in the MCU would know about the scrolls or other aliens and keep it quiet, I don't believe. I mean, I just don't believe that Rody would have known this

and not told Tony. And so again, if we get to like how are the decisions potentially if this really is Rody impacting our view on some of the most consequential aspects of the infinity saga. Tony's that up there, that's the endgame,

like cosmic obsession and the way that that connected to the Chetari invasion and to the threat that Thanos posed. If Rodi had been like, before that, by the way, there are aliens who have infiltrated our planet and they're all around us,

that changes our understanding of how Tony is processing this information in a way that like really undermines a central part of the Infinity saga. So I just think this has to be another bit of Rodi as a scroll evidence, right? I'm hoping, at least.

Yeah, I hope that's true too. And, like, also, like, saying that invasion is real and it's happened, that's not possible. Like... Right. That's not possible. Yeah, he seems like he'd been caught there.

Also, he wants to call the Avengers perhaps so that... Copy paste? Just the scrolls... I think it's so silly. This is such a problem always in the MCU where I'm like, why aren't we calling all the heroes all the time everywhere?

This is always a problem. And so for Fury to be like, we can't jump the gun on that, we get them to fight in the scrolls. You know, they find themselves duplicated and turn it to terrorists. Like, yes and no. And it just feels like a weird excuse not to involve whatever the Avengers are, the uneventualed Avengers are these days. But I think that I... But what I do like is that that then feeds into this idea that. that Rody says later of like, only you can stop them, right?

Like, this is your mentality. Yes, when Fury calls it my war. Right. Yeah, because there's this, you know, a large part of this conversation that they share here is fury appealing to like the things that they share. Right. They're both black men. They've had to fight for their power. This idea that they owe something to each other.

And when, when Rody says to him, like, you're the only, you think you're the only one who can fix it. There's something in the contrast there between the appeal to the appeal to be a united team here and the way that Fury is positioning himself as this solitary agent. I want to talk about that. I want to talk about this use of language. It's fascinating, honestly, to me. Maybe a coincidence, but I don't think so. So the use of brother in their exchange is is Nick Fury's attempt to appeal to that shared being black men in the halls of power. sort of thing that they have, right? And in that part that I just read from Bucking the Winter

Soldier, Rody called Sam Brother as well, right? So Fury says, so let's make the power mean something, help a brother out, right? And Rody says, and you want to make the power mean something by helping a brother out and not to put too fine a point on this, but that mess he created in Moscow that resulted in getting one of our best people murdered, you earn all this smoke brother. and the way that he like very caustically says like brother to him, right? I thought that was so interesting in contrast to the scroll council where they keep referencing, multiple characters reference to each other as sister, a prudent suggestion, sister, you go in peace, sister, you will not be harmed.

And I think what, I think that has to be intentional parallelism. And I think what it is asking us to think about is like, and I've said this on this podcast, on any story that we ever talk about, who is the us and who is the them, right? Nick Fury is trying to establish an us relationship with Rody here. We are both, we are in us. We are both black men in the halls of power, like blah, blah, blah. And Rody's rejecting it, and he might be a human rejecting it,

or he might be a scroll and be like, we actually don't have a shared history, and you don't know that, you know, like, sort of thing. And what I like about the scroll situation with Gravick, like, even when Shirley's like, fuck, no, I'm not going to bend the knee. he's like, go in peace sister. Like, you're still one of us. And it goes back to Talos not wanting to shoot this girl last week.

There is, I think, maybe perhaps, more unity in exile. No, not perhaps. There's more unity in exile than there is in being, like, you know, the dominant species on a planet sort of thing. Yeah. And to that point, like the fact that obviously Taylor has a deep personal investment in Soren's death because that was his wife, that was his partner, somebody he loved and to share his life with. but also like that specific aspect of the betrayal, like you killed one of your own. Right.

And then... It's clearly something that he's holding against graphic as a different type of sin. And the idea, I mean, like, this might, you know, as with most Marvel Disney Plus shows, this might end up with like a big avengery fight with everyone sort of like souped up on, you know, some Super Scroll juice or something about possibly.

Who knows? But like, I would, you and I love... you know, conversations in elegant rooms. Like, if it's... Conversation, yeah. If it's a father, if it's Nick Fyrian Gravick, a father and a son, if it's Talos and Gaia, a father and a daughter, we bring it down to the familial level, I think that would be such a tremendous story and such a tremendous, you know, and like, this is

going to be, this is the only the first time I've referenced it, so I think that's pretty good for us. If you think about Andor, and you think about those moments of Andor, that mean so much to us, right? And it's like, that's just love. You know what I mean? Like a moment like that where it's just sort of like a mother talking to her son. Those are the things that stick to your ribs, I think, at the end of the day. Yeah. The espionage, I do want to just quickly circle back to that line from Rodei to Nick Fury. The enemy is a million times more dangerous than Hydra, but they can only be vanquished by you alone. This really does feel like that.

old school espionage, like, only I can take down this entire political structure or something like that. Yeah, and this is that what follows after Rodi fires him and Fury is escorted out and disarms the security guard. That is the bench sequence you mentioned earlier, where he is not only alone, but uncomfortable in that element. we see some other discomfort right after this in the episode,

which is our guy Brogan getting his finger cut off, Borgon, getting his finger cut off by Sonia. Didn't your mother ever warn you you could lose an eye by beating your meat like that? Olivia Coleman said this line

on Disney Plus in the MCU when she walked into the butcher shop to takeover the operation. Give us bees. Do me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is just an unbelievable moment

in our shared history together here. Remarkable stuff. Who do you think it's on the phone that she hands over when she takes over the interrogation convinces the men who are in the process of torturing to exit? Who do you think is on that phone, Joe? I don't have an answer for you. Who do you think? Steve is like, your head is horizontal at this one is the funny. It's just a picture of you like that. on. This is like, I don't know. Putin?

I mean. Is it Putin? Is it James Bond? Is it Harrison Ford? Could it be Thaddeus Ross? Is it Val? I mean, it seems to be a man, but who knows? Ghost of Judy Dench as M.

That would be great. Is it Ray Fines? It is Ray Fines. That's who it was, as Baltimore. Not as M. As Baltimore. Oh, boy. Sonia's saying, let's party.

shall we, after revealing the true skull identity by cutting off the finger. Just fantastic stuff. We already then talked about the next scene, which is the computer scene. What do you think about that our man on the inside Gravac Tagaya line? Could it be Sonia, or do you think it's one of the other henchmen who was there who tipped off Gravick? I mean, I don't hate the idea of Sonia being a scroll of Olivia Coleman playing a scroll here, but I don't understand how like the interrogation scene necessarily makes sense if she's working with graphic. So she could be a scroll, but she would be a scroll with a different agenda, which... I think, yeah, either a different agenda or maybe testing the limits of their security.

One of the things, in addition to that graphic line and just her general, like, scroll vibes in some of these scenes, but again, kind of everyone is giving out that energy to some extent. The serum that she's using raises the temperature of the blood. like it makes the body boil, and we are right on the heels of seeing extremist tech as part of the Super Scroll power set.

So that made me think like is she getting that from the Dalton Lab? Is that like extremis in a syringe? Fascinating. So she's just testing Brogan to see if he'll, she already knows that it's the Dalton's

because she's actually a scroll. Brogan. How many times have I said Borgon? I think it's illegal that it's Brogan and Pagan. I think that should be absolutely illegal. But don't worry, Brogan's dead now, so it doesn't matter. Yeah, before he dies, he does say that he won't talk and he doesn't actually reveal anything about the location. Though he does say he's building a machine, I think it makes us stronger, which is, of course, a nod to the Super Scroll tech.

But the fact that he doesn't give away the location is germane because later when Gaia and Brogan and Pagan and Pagan, and Gravick are driving past the safe house and it's swarming with authorities. We know that's not from what he told Sonia, so we have to deduce it's Gaia from her weird secret call and alley. I'm going to go behind the building and speak an unsubtitled Russian into a phone.

What a weird moment in this episode. Very strange, but that has to be what that works, right? She tipped off the authorities to the location of the safe house. Do you want to talk about the fight? like the infiltration of the butcher shop. I thought this was a decent fight sequence. I didn't really liked it. And I liked that Gravick was doing his like,

you know, young wolf, white wolf, Danny Targ. I'm not just leading a charge. I'm out on the front lines fighting with my troops. You know, he's right there. I was nice to see. I'm for it. And I love like a, in a Marvel show,

Marvel shows don't always give us the best fight choreo, but if you give it in like a nice tight space, we can usually like make it work. And so I thought this like hold me locker situation is pretty cool. Yeah. Not quite as tight as space as the tunnel that Sonia flees into. And she says, How very Dostoevsky, which was just frankly iconic.

How very Dostoevsky. This is remarkable. We're done. We already talked about, we talked about they take Brogan to the woods. They shoot them. Everybody looks really suspicious of each other and very sad about what has happened. We talked about the last.

scene, which is Fury and Priscilla. We're done with the episode. We have our rapid fire. Crushed it. Easter egg wigwatch. Okay. Subtitles and Secret Scroll, and then we're done. What's your favorite Easter egg?

Oh, I got a shout out. We got a couple emails about this, actually, and I can't really go into it because it's a future Doctor Who. It's a future Doctor Who spoiler for you. Okay. People want to shout out the Zygons from Doctor Who and how this scroll plot seems a little zygonyy to them. So that'll mean something to you in the future.

I look forward to finding out what that means. I guess, you know, my favorite was just the Fris B. Cull Obsidian extremist glimpses that we got on the computer screen. That was really fun. But I do feel compelled to pick Sonia's crime and punishment. Nod. That was incredible. Transcendant.

Whigwatch. Okay. Wigwatch is essentially hot. Do you wear wigs? I forgot about that. Weigwatch is essentially Hatwatch at this point. So Nick's, Nick Fury. Spy Fedora is just incredible work. But we do also have to shout out the return of the Nick Fury 90s

CGI hair, which is always incredible. And then Amelia Clark is wearing a wig, and I'm not really sure why. So I will continue to monitor the situation. Ooh. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. I love when you're on the wig feet. Great stuff. Joe, if this show had Netflix subtitles, what would we have gotten this week? Frosty, unoccupied meat hook slips effortlessly into the first. fleshy neck of a hairless Russian goon like a hot knife sliding through butter. Goon dangles and starts to stiffen like so many sides of beef. That was sensational.

And this is a real roll reversal moment because I picked the same thing. I picked the meat hook and the goon. But I was like, I've been going a little long with these. I'm just going to break out a classic protruding meat hook latches, goon crunchily and squelchely. I was like, I will match Mal's energy. And Mal was like I'll match Joe's energy. Great.

If we were texting, this is where we'd send each other the twin dancing. The twins dancing emoji. Secret Scroll, Joe. Give us your top, one or two actual contenders right now, and your, it's a house of our recurring bit since Eternals contender. Oh, actual Rody number one, I'm still putting Sharon Carter number two. It's a bit. I'm going to say, the Russian goon who grabbed his, like, dick and then asked someone to bring him a sauce. because I don't think a human would do that.

Absolutely incredible. Rody's my number one. I'm putting Sonia at number two right now on my legit theory power ranking. My bit pick was going to be the Slovakian member of the EU summit who just keeps making sounds.

But then I remembered that there's only one proper pick for this episode. Only one explanation for Don't you be! So I will be going with Elizabeth Hill. What other explanation is there? All right, we did it. We made a pod. If we had another 100 like you, we could take on the universe. In the meantime, that's a wrap. Thank you to our council member, Steve Allman, back with us today. Producing this episode. Arjun Ram Gapal for his additional production work on this episode and Jomi and Denneron for his work on the social for this episode. Please head back into the ring of verse tomorrow for our House of Midnight Dial of Destiny Pod. Check out Jessica's Easter Egg breakdown of Secret Invasion episode two over the weekend. into The Witcher with the Mint Edition crew on Monday

and then come back for more Secret Invasion talk next week. Until then, remember, we don't punish a pod by giving it what it was. What's the difference between butter and butter made from real California dairy? It's the real

California farm families behind it. Real people. Real care. Real intention. Why? Because real matters. So whether you're pouring milk, melting cheese, or just grabbing one more spoonful of yogurt, keep it real. Look for the seal. Real California milk by real California farm families.