The Ringer-Verse - Severance Season 2 Theories and Questions | The Midnight Boys

Episode Date: March 25, 2025

The Boys are here to deliver all of their thoughts on 'Severance' Season 2, including the character progression from the previous season and their conspiracy theories on the show lore. Hosts: Van Lathan, Charles Holmes, Jomi Adeniran, and Steve Ahlman Producers: Aleya Zenieris and Steve Ahlman Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those WeatherTech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need WeatherTech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. Welcome. Into the Ringiverse. This is, of course, the Ringers' Nexus podcast feed for all things.

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So I feel like if there's anybody you'd like to give a shout out that's made you smile or like got you through some rough times. They don't shout us out though. That's okay. We don't get shouted out on Ryan area. You never shout us out. Heavy spoilers, you never shout us out.

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We're the bad boys Of nerve content About what we're starting beefs Yeah we're about to start We all not shit Y'all never shout us I never help us Wow

Oh my God Y'all don't help us Like some of us We don't want you to shout us out Because y'all got weird ways But Again What?

We show y'all love man Y'all shout us out Uh, bro. Hey, tomorrow, Button Mash returns with their thoughts on Assassin's Creed Shadows. Now, I haven't played Assassin's Creed in a long time. I used to like it a lot. Sneak up on people and kill them.

What is the best sneak up on people kill them game that has ever existed? Is it, uh, Metal Gear? Is it Assassin's Creed? I would, some Tom Clancy. Personal bias would probably be Metal Gear 3. Okay. That's, that's me. Um, other than that big shout out to Splinter.

Splinter Cell. That's probably... Splinter Cell was the best. Sneak up on it and kill people game. Chaos theory. There was some sneaking up on people and killing them in Spider-Man. Yeah. Yeah, that was a different genre. That takes it from like the Batman Arkham games, but this was just like,

okay, you're waiting in the darkness. Speaking of Batman Arkham, I got a new Oculus. Oh, so you can play the VR. It came with Batman. Okay. Go for it. How's Batman looking? I haven't tried it yet. I wonder if I'm scared to play. Why? Of the Heights?

well, not the heights. Well, the heights, too. Because number one, I get dizzy. But at the same time, if I'm in the VR and I become Batman, right? At Kern might have to take my place. You'll never leave the house. Oh, you're going to become the night.

Do you clear out the living room? Do you move the couch? You move the chair. You have to play in a specific play. You know what I do. Yeah, oh, yeah. We did it in my house. Yeah, so you play in the play zone.

And there are other games where the older I get, I become these people in these games. And so if it lets me become Batman, I don't know that I'll come back. So I'll see because one time I became Darth Vader Invader. Invader Immortal. That's a fun one. That was fighting with lightsabers for at least a month

and a half. At least a month and a half. And then you take it off, watch the lore videos on Yoda. Yeah, so it's crazy. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if I want to try Batman. I just want to keep boxing maybe. Who knows what's going on? Wednesday, the Midnight Boys are back with their reactions to Daredevil. Two episodes this week.

two episodes of Daredevil. I'm telling you guys, Daredevil is becoming a hot topic. Why? It seems to be. Yeah, because people don't know. I don't think Daredevil's a hot topic. It's a hot topic amongst people that are talking about Daredevil.

Yeah, that's many as we probably wish if we being real. On the House of Our feed, Yellow Jackets and Daredevil coverage continues. Shout out to our sisters over on the House of R. Yellow Jackets and Daredevil. But on today's show, we take a detour from our road on the nerd road. We're diving into thoughts and feelings on the second season of severance and pondering our most burning questions. Here's the deal.

I'm happy we're doing this. Yeah. Because I watched the second season of severance. And I'm not so sure I understand it. When you're not alone. Trust me, you're not alone. When were you like, I'm not getting this? Was it from the first episode?

Well, this is what happened. I went and I watched the second season of Severance without refreshing the first season. And so I think maybe some of the connective tissue that was missing. By the way, severance, very high concepts show. You do not have to understand it to enjoy it. Very true. I mean, you don't.

Because essentially, we're going to talk about this. The relationships between the characters and the stakes, kind of what grounds the show. So you don't have to completely get or understand or be able to even theorize about everything that's going on to be able to be like, wow, I got what they were trying to do right there. So wait, so then what is your mini review of season two? Cinema.

Yeah. Okay. Cinema. Here's the thing. It was, to me, season two was choppy because they would have episodes that were like some of the best TV I've seen this year and of the decades. And then there would be some episodes where I'm like

That are the lore heavy ones where I'm like to your point You're like huh I was like I'm gonna have to research what's going on Like the Cobell episode I'm like oh wait what They hooked on the ether they work in the children They got the whole fucking town what's going on So there was a couple episodes I was like Before we get into it I'll just say this is

Kaufmanesque television I haven't seen anything on TV Maybe you guys can change my mind that's this Kaufman-esque, Charlie Kaufman-esque. I haven't seen anything that asks these types of questions. It's great. Spoilers! For everything having to do with Severance right now.

We're getting ready to talk about you're listening to a reaction podcast. The spoilers are coming. Overall thoughts on the second. season of Severance Charles. I, like, I love the season of TV. Obviously, I think with any mystery box show,

you know, whether it's loss or White Lotus, I think there are going to be, like, episodes where you're confused. You're like, oh, I don't know where it's going. But I just think the finale landed the plane. I remember the moment where I was just like, all right, they about to do some shit in the finale. And it's when Milchek gets done talking to Dylan.

And he just starts running. and I was dying because I'm like, oh, he's about to get busy. Finally, Milchek, he's like, fuck, Lou and whatever. And then when he rolls out with the HBCU marching band, I was like, all right, this is something special. I think, don't. Getting it, by the way. Doing it, bro.

Getting it. Bro. Because here's the thing, I never thought that they would be able to top the Milchek dancing scene from the first season, and they killed it. And I just think what I ended up feeling with this episode of Severance is I don't need my seasons of TV to be perfect from back to front. But if you give me enough episodes like the Gemma episode, the finale, a couple moments here and there that are just like so sublime,

so just like they are going for it, pushing it, just trying to amaze you. It's why I'm watching this shit. A show's mystery and its concepts go only as far as how those concepts shape the characters. You can have high conceptual deep stuff, but if you can't make the connection between the heaviness and the depth of the world that you've created and the human experience of your characters, you fail, that's why, to me, one of the most intensely

and sublimely executed shows ever is Balstar Galactica. Because Valstar Galactica is a show that is like litigating a whole bunch of things, but it's also a small show about so many fundamental questions about humanity. And what Severance ends up doing is taking all of these gigantic things, all of these mysteries, and then packaging them really tight and giving you in ways that you can come to them and access them. And that was even more to me evident in season two than it was in season one. Because season one was establishing the rules of the world to such a degree. And you get a lot of that in season two, too.

There's a great expansion of that. But this season, you get to kind of fall back into just what the stakes are and choice and what choice means. And the care, I will say what I love about this show, and we were talking about it before we got on, is I think the greatest mystery box shows actually always remember that the mystery is only ever going to be so interesting. at the end of the day, it is the characters and what they mean to each other and what they're fighting for, which is why you come back. And there was moments in the season,

whether it was like Irving being the only one being like, that's not my hellie, and him willing to sacrifice himself, the Dylan plot line with his wife, and like the any Dylan, like, falling in love and that, there were so many of these small moments, even the Gemma episode, everything that Mark and her had gone through.

I was just like, oh, the reason I keep coming back week to week isn't because, oh, I need to know what Cold Harbor is. It is because I'm like, I want to see Irving and Dylan. I want to see Mark and Gemma and Helly and all of these people. That's the thing that I think the show always comes back to and lands perfectly. And so much of it about, so much of it is about perception and how, like, which version of reality are you choosing? And we made that, it's funny. The show is about like severing yourself from who you are when you are, you know, obviously

not at work. And everybody does that. Everybody kind of gets to work and there's a new reality when you get there. There's a new friend group. There's a new, some of y'all got workwives. Great season to TV. This was a great season of TV. Like to your guys's points, the connection between the characters this really makes this season, the Orpal episode, like regardless of, you know, the visual stuff, that's always excellent. The cinematography is always excellent. the acting was on another level this season. I thought Adam Scott, a highlight, Mr. Milkshake, another one.

What's his actual name? Because I want to give him a shout out. Tremel Timmel. Tremelman. Tremant is one of the most gifted TV actors we've got him. Seemingly coming out of nowhere for me. They've got him doing so much. And in a show that, at least to me,

I think some of the comedy is intentional, most of it is, unintentional. Right. And what he does in that role is supposed to be the serious down to, well, not down to earth,

but just like the cop in the office, yet somehow injecting this levity and funness in it to where I see him. He's supposed to be my op, right? We're supposed to be team,

MDR, everybody versus MDR. Like, those are our ops, right? But when he comes on screen, in the season finale when they got the spotlight and he comes and he's like

hyping himself up before he goes on stage he's like the vocal Jordan Bulls music in the background he's a little routine I'm having a blast that's supposed to be my up

the work he's doing he's doing on this show is incredible and I mean this goes for Britt Lauer Zach Cherry John Stere everybody on the show

is doing amazing amazing work I feel like Dylan is the only character that they write funny. Yes. I think and Scott kind of, but I mean, I think like that's just his job as a comedian. I think everybody else kind of, but they

write that character. Right, yeah. And Rickin and the Dicker. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love this season. I think that with your kind of like service of Milchick and kind of Dylan, characters are served very like diplomatically when it comes to

how they kind of write each episode of each show. The fact that we haven't exactly had a solo Milchick episode, but yet we've, I've had a lot of like moments of empathy and connection with that character to where he's like trying to both ingratiate himself to his higher-ups and demand a level of respect and control from the severed floor that he's kind of barely grasping onto is really compelling. And by the end of that season finale, like, I almost hope bad for him that like he is yet again, like, struggling. to maintain composure and control

from the people that demand the most of him yet is still, like, beating him down? I, like, that level of complexity... The horror of middle management. Exactly. You're not... You're really a man or a lady without a country. You're not with the people that you're managing,

and then you're certainly not with your uppers. And when you take that... Yeah, I'm a question for you, specifically. There's a scene between Milkchick and Natalie, right? Yes. Where he's like, hey, they gave me these pictures of Keir, but they're all black people. Yeah. Were they being weird to you when you got this job? How did you feel watching that? Well, no. Okay, first of all, that woman, again, the actor's name is escaping me. She has an amazingly like haunted.

She has an amazingly like haunting. Exactly. She has an amazingly like haunting, like, like blank face. I mean, this is a compliment for the, for the role that she's doing. And she's doing that thing where she's like, basically the vessel for the board, which we don't even know who or what that is yet, which is fascinating to me.

And she's giving this look to him where, like, she's like both reaching for a connection with him, but also like kind of wallowing and how fucked up this interaction is. And it was really moving because Seth's kind of looking for connection this season. And he doesn't get it, yet he's still trying to, like, put on this air of not only, like, a Lumen Company man, but somebody who is able to both empathize and work with the severed floor.

To me, that was kind of the most interesting arc of this season. Not exactly the most well served, I think, come the end of it, because they kind of put him in the same place as they did in the first season finale. But I loved it. Can I ask you, do you all think Milchak this entire season, like, he was practicing on his own time with the band? Do you think he was putting in a lot of work? And then the day they start freaking out,

he's like, dog, can y'all give me what? Because I know a lot of managers who are like, I just need this one win. I just need this one win. Just like, give me it. They always have something that they put too much stock into. Chorography, merriment was just too much? I wouldn't be surprised if we cut to him

and he's like living on the seven floor. We don't see him at home at all. I will say there's always, my favorite person at any job I've ever had is that one dude who takes it too seriously. because you always cloud him. It's always the guy where it's like, oh, this is actually bringing all of us together

because you're like, look at this dumb ass. Like, look at him running off. It was a guy at Best Buy. We used to call him Sergeant Media. Sergeant Media? That's a great name. Great villain name. He was like, the media department

is, it was the most useless part of Best Buy. It's the part where people need the least amount of help. Media being like DVDs, DVDs. DVDs. DVD. all of that stuff, right? You don't need, you go, the shit

is there, it's either there or not. The only question you get is, hey, I don't see Dave Chappelle's show on the shelf. Do y'all have it in the back? I would always make this joke about the media team. I'd be like, it was funny because I got in trouble for saying this.

I'd be like, all of y'all get it in the back. Okay, that's... I would say that to the whole media team. It's a classic HR call there. If you want to be in the media, All y'all do is get it in the back. Oh, my. That's what y'all do.

Okay. All right. The whole purpose of media is not on the shelf. Is it in the back? And so I'll be like, hey, man, it's my homeboy, uh, Jake. I don't want to say nobody's real name. He's going to go get it in the back. So he's going to get it in the back for you.

So if you want him to get it in the back, that's what he'll do for you. You were insufferable at best eyes. You were a probable. But we had one guy, Sergeant Media. Mm-hmm. he was always trying to pull somebody else from a different fucking section of the store Department of the store to help in media

which no one ever doing. Hey, hey, fan. Media is swamped right now. It's crazy. The blue collar comedy tour is killing us right now. Can you help some people in people? We need you to come over and help us in media right now. We'd be like, man, sergeant media.

Fuck no. I'm over here selling a while. the Blue Collie Comedy Tour. We're selling the big dog TVs. I'm not coming over there to go get it in the back. Oh, wait. So there were hierarchies. Like, the TV motherfuckers are just like, we're a big dog.

So the goat department doesn't fuck with the MDR. Oh, dog. I used to walking that bitch. When I made it to home theater, that's a, I used to walking that bitch with sunglasses on. Oh, really cool. Bro, I just walking that bitch with sunglasses on. Van, they were coming there.

As soon as I would get in there, as soon as I would start handing me stuff. I'd get in there and be like, van, van, van, van. There's a couple on big TVs, um, plasma. screens. They're looking to buy something. It doesn't seem like they want the service

agreement. They don't want to give the Monster Power Center. And you need you right now. And I'm like, okay, cool. Tell me where they are. Oh my God. It's time. Let me lock you. I'm like, hey, how you doing? Acting like you're selling Buicks or something. But Sergeant Media was that guy. He was always trying to figure out new ways to fucking sell

Batman Begins. Or whatever the movie was. I mean, it sells itself. It sells. Itself! Itself! Yeah. People come there specifically To get Batman Begins To get Memento Yeah

They don't need no help Like where's the DVD section Right there But I always thought about I wonder where he is now Man sergeant media Honestly he's probably a king now It's physical media

Yeah it's not dominating You know what I'm saying General media But like The beginning of the season The Cold Harbor mystery Was a gigantic part Of the show

When it rounded its sense out and reconciled itself. How do we feel? I mean, I understood what the goal was, right? I think ultimately to see whether or not you can be completely severed from your outside, like completely and utterly.

I mean, do we really know that? Like, I kind of likened Cold Harbor with kind of like the numbers and lost where it's like the end result of that thing, whether it's a letdown or something that you actually liked, it ends up being this propulsive McGuffin that ends up

ultimately kind of letting you down. I was kind of let down by the numbers, maybe not, a bit more so with Cold Harbor because I still don't quite understand what the point of all it is. And it's kind of with all of the... From what standpoint? Like, why is Cold Harbor more important

than any of the other severed personalities that they gave Gemma? Is that to illustrate how, like, the barrier between, a severed self and an unsevered self can be tested. Once it's completed, okay, it's complete, but that's kind of it. Well, I thought that that was the most simple.

This is where Chuck comes in. Chuck is the self-proclaimed severance expert. I think severance was always going to end up where most of the science fiction stuff ends up, which is like love was the answer all along. And I think the reason that Cold Harbor was so important is because, as we learn, all of the numbers at MDR assorting, or at least Mark specifically, are the four tempers.

So there are the four tempers that they tell us that Keer, when he makes up this whole kind of quasi-religion, makes up the soul. So each bucket is a different one. I think it's like, whoa, frivolic, dread, woe, fallic, dread, and malice. Yes. So the one thing that, and the reason I think that they were targeted,

if you remember the Gemma episode, the doctor was there, like when they were taking the blood. I think there was a Lumen connection when they go to the place to get checked out when she wants to get pregnant. The doctor is there who works at Lumen. So I think the thing that they've always been trying to get is how can we override the most powerful emotion, which is love? And that was Cold Harbor. And obviously, the thing that, the reason that both Mark and Jemma end up going through all of this is because

societally, what is the biggest kind of conception of love trying to conceive another person. Right. So Colt Harbor was, once they get to 100% and she walks into that room, the biggest memory or the biggest regret that they had was not being able to have a child, which is represented by the cradle, the cradle, whatever. Which is a cure, a complete victory over emotion and that, that, from the standpoint of cure and looming. Yeah. And then when Jamie's like yelling when Mark runs through, what he runs through that, door, Gemma essentially is no longer a person, where she's just kind of like an automaton who is like, I can do this because I've been completely severed from pain and any emotion.

And what is revealed is that even if she's not herself, the love that she had for her husband is so powerful that it overrides the system. And that's why they start freaking out. So I think there's other layers of what Lumen is trying to achieve. But in the first two seasons, Colt Harbor, and the reason that they were like, Mark is so important, Mark is the chosen one, is because they were realizing, basically, if we can get Gemma to completely forget Mark and completely forget this love, then we've actually gotten severance to a point that it was always supposed to get to, but was something that they couldn't achieve before that. Yeah.

Yeah, it's funny because when, you know, the show obviously is commentary on so many things have to do with contemporary life. But when you look at it, in order to exist as the perfect capitalistic being, you kind of have to turn off what your company is doing. Yes. Who's getting fucked by your company? Like what? But in order to even consume, right?

We did all of this show. All of this is on an iPhone. And you have to kind of sever yourself from where the iPhone is coming from and who's making it and who's doing this, you sever your morality and your humanity in ways to watch the NFL, you know? So Keir and Lumen, they are simply, in my opinion, the highest evolution, the highest evolution of capitalist function, creating something that you do not have to, you don't have to, like, pour into like your people at all.

Give you an example. Like, I've told the Supervisor at TMZ, you know, they decided on Thursday. They actually had perks at TMZ. They had perks. Get finger traps? Waffle parties? Yeah. Oh.

So basically they were just like, hey, if you ruin enough celebrities' lives, we're pulling in the fucking fondue. The melody. You didn't even have to get it. They just decided that Thursday was perk day. It was assumed that the work that was being done. right so Thursday it would be like hey we got my tides or I've told you guys this before we got brownies in the other room or we got this from this place so every Thursday people are running in there for the treats and doing the whole thing and stuff like that and getting the treats and drinking the

drinks and all of that stuff and I'll be like all right now are they going to give you all the time off that y'all asked for are they going to give you all the raises that y'all ask for y'all running in there to these people to get the free food and all of that stuff like And at the same time, they perking you out. You're getting perked out. It was a pizza party's at every job. Once in a year, whenever, like, you could tell, like, everybody was getting a little antsy. They was about ready to revolt.

They'd be like, hey, guys, don't worry about going out for lunch. We got pizza and wings. And I'd always be like, I'm going to eat this pizza, but I know you're trying to. I'm going to be out of it. Under protest. Y'all, y'all say that I can't go home for my grandmother's funeral. Don't worry about it because we put a ping pong table. And I'm like, yo.

Oh, nigger. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Let me break this down real quick. Is Arjuna in there? A perk master. What? He's like, because when we had to come in early in the morning, going to him to record, he's like, it's burrito day.

And we were all like, barrio. Hey, we were. I tried to have this conversation with Kerm. I was like, Kerm, you perking it up? Arjuna is the best version of Milichick that we can possibly have. I love that. Arjuna, defeat yourself.

Defend yourself. Say something. Do you guys want some more burritos? That's what I'm trying to take us to chilies. He's like, yo, they're getting a little answer. Oh, chili's got to happen. We got to make that. But when I see that, it's just the entire goal of Lumen,

the entire ethos of Kear is so deeply relatable. Humanity versus consumption, capitalism versus... Uninizing your workplace? Yeah, though. It's all so, that's essentially what they do. Yes, that's exactly what it is. Because I think what really works for me is that they say it this season, what is the whole point of Lumen and Kear's philosophy is a world without pain. And I think that that is like so interesting because you have to think about Mark.

The thing that lands Mark there is that when him and Gemma are trying to conceive a child, he is so wrapped up in the thought of. of I need to be a father. I want this kid so bad. He can't see that his wife is suffering. Right. So when she dies or quote unquote dies, the first thing he does is like, I can't even live through this.

I want to sever myself. I want to cut myself off from pain. And the grand irony of that is he ends up birthing a child with his iny. And what I thought was so genius about this finale is it's like basically his child that he is enslaved, that he doesn't even recognize his personhood

finds his father and is talking to him and is immediately disgusted. Any Mark is immediately like, you're a liar and I don't trust you. And I thought that that was so interesting. I think that there was a lot of great scenes in this season, but maybe for the finale specifically, that entire bit of Anymark talking to Altymark

was some of the best scene work I've seen in a long long time. It's wonderfully conceived as well because the editing suggests that it becomes this thing that's a long process of them walking out to the balcony, walking back in, walking back in, and then it's just like a turn of the camera and then you just see them talking to one another.

They even do this thing where they're facing each other Yeah, it's brilliantly done. This kind of, this whole scene, like, while I loved it, after having thought about it for a second, I'm like, wait a minute, did this show kind of forget about PD? Niggum fuck PD. Hold on, don't fuck PD. No.

What, PD got to do with anything? Because that's a huge extension of trust from both Ine and Audi Mark to at least acknowledge and talk about because the reintegration that they were talking about from the beginning of this season I won't say falls to the wayside but to know that he wants to be reintegrated

with both his Indian Audi's memories and then by the end of it, it's almost as if they didn't even try. I think the reintegration thing is one of the things that I kind of fall against when I think about season two because when they were doing it, I was kind of like, I don't really want Mark to get reintegrated.

I don't really like. And even the show was like, and even the show was like, yeah, we're kind of moving away from that. I don't know. That was the most like in real time. And they're literally in real time. Like, I don't know if maybe Dan Erickson said it somewhere, but somebody on the show said it where they wrote it like they were going to reintegrate Mark and then they kind of fell away from that. Toward the end. The PD, like who, I mean, frankly, who cares?

I don't. That's the weakest part of the show. The PD shit, the, um, home girl who's doing the shit. But it's so crazy because the PG stuff and everything was kind of the strongest part of season one. It really worked in season one. It worked in season one. Like, you know, they killed old boy. Yeah.

You know, like that was, that was, that was, that was, I jumped off from this. Because Audi Mark really doesn't want to be reintegrated. He don't get, he only wanted to do that shit to find Gemma. He don't give a fuck about his any. Which is why I think, like, again, watch is why, like, I don't over thinking it with the PD stuff because it's only about Mark, any Mark and outy Mark. And how Audi, Audi Mark is so. That's the tension of the entire. Sure.

Yes. And that's what, very well done. And that specific scene. And they, they, this is why this show is so great. They do it earlier with Helena and Mark. Helena pulls up to Mark at the Chinese restaurant. And she's trying to, you know, try to, you know, talk to him. And she gets Gemma's name wrong.

And he's like, bet. All right, you already don't know what you're talking about. I'm off this. Don't eat like, leave me alone. Mark does the same thing. Yeah. To, Mark. Mark ass.

Mini Mark. Where he's like, oh, you've got a girl you're like, uh, uh, uh, heli. Hellie or like, so, so, Melanie. He's like, all right, bet, you're not even, you know, he's supposed to be the same, but you can't get my girl's name right? Bet is done, right? And they have that, that tension. You kind of feel like for a second that they've got to figure it out, but as soon as he says the name wrong. Yeah, I know.

It's bad. It's incredibly condescending and not really, like, acknowledge him of his personhood, which is. Which is why the ending for me was fantastic because any mark knows if he steps outside, it's done. He's never coming back. His life is over. He essentially dies. But a good, again, extension of trust from any mark being like the next thing that I see better be the severed floor. And then sure enough, I mean, I'm going to be honest too.

It's crazy for Audi Mark being like, I want you to die for my bitch. That's nuts. Nigel, what? That's nuts. Come on, son. The more I thought about it, the more I connected to it. To Audi Mark? Yeah.

Because here's the thing, it's not like, as easy as it is to, like, devolve into a team heli or team Gemma situation. It is, but the more I thought about it, the more, the more, because the show, because really, nigga, I put you on. You know what I mean?

You're nothing without me. So here's the thing, right? One, I don't ever think a prestige TV show has been this bogged down with shipping wars ever. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm not locked in. I think it's probably just an internet problem more than a show problem. But that's what shipping wars is, though.

That exists there. I wasn't on the lost forms, whatever. But since the show aired, it's been hellie, Mark, Hellie this, Mark, Gemma, this. They've been beefing for real. But that's not the point. I feel like you're not wrong. However, it's, I put you on. I got my-

So here's a thing. But you got to understand, bro. It's like, that's my wife. That's your wife. That's your wife. Great. I got her out. You might see,

you know what I'm saying? You'll probably might. I don't know. I know if I step out this door. If I cross back their shoulder, I'm never. Hey, if you're any mark,

you got to be like, damn, I'd have done, I started a coup, a workers revolution to get your hot wife back. And then I got to die so you can hit that. And I'm literally gone for ever.

But running back to me. I think about the pain, though. And then all of a sudden of Audi Mark and all of a sudden that pain, you got a future, you can have the whole thing. I'm like, bro, you got to take one for the team. Also, any Mark's only had sex twice. So he's like, damn, like, I still need a little, you know, I'm having fun. Jesus Christ, I don't know.

I got action. I got movement. That's a whole other thing. But the fact, but you got to think about it, right? It's either die immediately, right? never come back. Or I might have 25 minutes left with Helly. Right?

But I'm going to take that. I'll take 25 minutes with Helly. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? Well, you got to, at that point, you got to cut your loss. I was just, when I was watching that whole thing, I was kind of like, any Mark is kind of out of Mark's kid. Yeah. And he was kind of showing up like that.

He was slaved. Do you feel like that's a bit of a reductive way? Like, I feel like you wouldn't. You don't. All right. Okay. Well, that's a quote. Children are.

You guys, children are slaves. Like, they, like, they have to do whatever you say. A lot of times they get beat. A lot of times they get beat. All right, keep going, keep going. Okay, children are like, they have to do whatever you say. A lot of times they get beat. They have zero autonomy.

They live on a plantation of chores. A plantation of chores? I'm pretty sure mowing the lawn. Let me come. I'm not, anyway, I'm not going to lie. When my dad had me mowing the lawn, I'm like, I mean, Fuck this shit.

You guys don't know how much I loved my father, right? Love my father. Right. Hey, son, hey, what you doing? Something that I want to be doing is the answer on my head, but I can't say that. Hey, I'll be home 5.30. Get up. Get up.

Not could you. Get up. Go out there right now and start working Ruby out to make sure she lathered up. I'm a ride today. That means my fucking evening's done. I got to get up and go work. a horse. I got a saddle a fucking horse. Work a horse out in the round pin. Check out a horse. I love the horses. But this is it. That even's finished. That's like four hours right there.

It's not four hours, but I'm going to be out there tending to his horse and getting his horse ready for him to come home and ride. I have no choice. I have to do it. You know why? Because he feeds me. Because I am functionally slave. Jesus Christ. This is true. Because here's the thing. When I walked in one day and I was like, Mom, Dad. My wife friends getting allowance. They did the black, like, you got a house, don't you? You got a house. You got, you got food, don't you? You got food, don't you? You sleep here? What do you need? What do you need allows for? And even if they did give you allowance, they wouldn't give you allowance based upon the work that you do,

they give you an allowance based upon what they think you should get. Because you ain't got no rights to say so. Okay? So what I'm saying is, kids are inies. What I'm saying is kids are slaves. Kids are kind of inies. Kids are kind of inies. kids are ines. And so when I looked at the whole thing, I understand we're supposed to be on the side of any mark. Any Mark is the mark.

You don't think so? I don't think the show is picking size. I was with you. I was mad when he didn't. I'm like, Mark, just, Gemma been through a lot. Just get through that door. But also, I think the thing

that's so interesting about the show and this is why I thought the finale was amazing is that I think the thing that unites any and Audi Mark are that like deep down they're both assholes. Like they are, neither of them can do the thing. Assholes are damaged.

Damaged. Damage? Damage because, all right, remember, any mark is so up his own ass. He can't even realize that any hella, hellie is not actually who she is. It takes urban. When it comes for him to make the ultimate sacrifice, any mark to be like, Gemma, I need to go with you. I want to give my Audi this thing. You have to think about it.

All of the other people in NBR are making sacrifices for each other for themselves. It's EniMark who is having a battle within himself because Audi Mark doesn't understand. He's just like, why is this so hard? Why can't you just give me what I want? And I think the thing that the show is showing us is that the thing that both Eni and Audi Mark have to come to grips with is how do I live for someone other than myself? Right. Like how do I sacrifice what I want for this greater good?

And I think it's easier for us to empathize with any mark because the fact that his existence is only work the severed floor and hellie. That's all that he has. And like she said in the end, like they give us a half of a life and they expect us not to fight for it. He'll fight for that, for that nothing, that as a severed any of the evil CEO of the company that he is now, working for it. Like, there's no happy ending with that. There's not really probably going to be a happy ending with Audi Mark and Audi Gemma.

Do you guys remember the conversation between any hellie, well, Heli and Helena from the first season? Yeah, it's like when she's talking to him on the screen, you're not a person, you're not a person, you're not real. Think about the difference in that conversation between Any Mark and Ali Mark's conversation at the end. Like, or in the second season.

Think about how there was no negotiation there. there was nothing there there was a term setting and this was at the time that Helly was like trying to escape more she was like legitimately pushing the boundaries of what it meant

to be alive and she was understanding that she was a slave think about those two different conversations and that's kind of where the show has has come to me now when we learned what we learned at first

first of all told us a lot about Helen like a, she's like, evil in, what you mean? Is she? Terrible. Yes. Absolutely. Helena, you don't think so? Yes, she's evil.

No, no, no. I think she's evil, but I think what the show has been, what I think the show has been trying to demonstrate is that there is something within her where she wants the same thing that Heli wants. She wants to find love because she's been raised in this cult. She's been raised by basically these really abusive eagens where, you know, or essentially her whole role is trying to basically become the next CEO. And I think the feeling that she had with Mark,

the reason that she went down on that floor flips because she's just like, oh, any hellie has achieved something that I have. Getting a taste of any helly's life. It's like, oh, this is a redeeming quality. No, she is evil, but I think it's like she's just as much of a slave. Audi Helly is just as much of a slave as any hellie. Well, a slave to different circumstances. Circumstances.

A family and a way of living. expectation. Right. But there was a repressed, like, version of her that comes out in Helly R. Uh-huh. Where you get, like, it's not really freedom, but you see, like, the problems that everybody on the separate floor, like, oh, this is not real. This can't be.

Yeah. Like, you can't live like this. And you see it culminated the MDR episode, or the, the field trip episode, episode, episode, four. The Orpo episode, thank you. I think my biggest critique of the execution of her arc is because we don't really get to see Audi, Helly, at all after that, at least

not nearly as much as I think that I would like to, in order to have that kind of of a redeeming, like, spark. What do I mean? We saw her half the season. No, we didn't. We saw her any for most of it. And Mark's, like, the backlash that came from that lack of trust. It was Helena for four episodes.

Mint boys beefing. Right? It was Helena for the order. All right. Men chat, but then it is? Whoa. Whoa. Guys. Guys. Seriously. Guys. Guys. Guys. Guys. It doesn't have to be that. You're going to hit a woman? That's crazy.

Jesus. Oh, wait, hold on. Are you doing, so you're, I mean, you're dressed up like a lady right now. Yeah. Okay. All right, don't get out of your black. That's what they do.

I put a wig on a black man. I need you. No. I'm just saying, I need you to relax. I'm about to get some people on the phone with Cat Williams. Honestly, is this your white lotus moment where you just like the white woman inside you?

And we're on the... Oh, my God. Jomi! Oh, shit. Oh, God. Jomi, we're giving you a bro. Jomi. Jomi about to give us the talk.

Jomey's about to be at. I was looking at her, looking at me. And I wanted to be her. And I didn't want to be. I wanted to be her. What happened in Africa? What happened in Africa? Jomi doesn't want a white woman.

He wants to be. He wants to be a white woman. I was looking at her, looking at me. I don't. want to drink the milk. I want it to be the milk. Be the milk. That's crazy.

Oh, man. No, but she was Elena for four episodes. We didn't know. So Irving told us. And then we see her, again, we see her at the dinner with Mark, but we got a lot of Helena. We just didn't know it. Right. And, but the point being

that her arc as like Helena, not in this season, but like, for a good long while, ends with her, like, imposing a big violation to both Ine Helley's, like, autonomy and, like, Mark's trust. And Aoudi Mark doesn't know any of this.

And, like, the sown distrust that happens just because of that, even with Iny and Aoudi Mark, when they're confronting at the end of that finale, that's never talked about. Like, there's never even, like, the extension of trust, and that's because of her. And I get the fact that, like, she is, like,

there's a lot more at play with her because she's been subjugated into far worse things from her dad and family and this company. But I would have just liked to see more of that, of her kind of suffering with that. We've gotten it more with Milchick. You mean an example, like, what you would want it to see? Well, like, we didn't get, like, a devour feculence moment

from Hellie when it came to stuff like that. It's more of, like, her dad shits on her in front of her in-y. Yeah. Because, like, oh, I had all of these ill-a-fellings, legitimate kids and none of them had the spark that you have any hellie not not my actual daughter yeah because because key he's looking for kear yeah he's looking for the spark of kear the fire of kear yeah to me i see a bit more of like the like either defiance or the like oppression frankly of milchick than i do from outy helly if that makes sense because like i empathize more with that you get it

a little bit i do agree with you but even when they have the fucking nasty ass egg scene where she's like cutting the egg. I like it when you take it raw. I would crash out in front of my dad right there. I'm like what the fuck? And they were basically like Kier would eat them raw.

Yeah. I'd rather you take it raw. And I think what basically they're kind of what they're trying to show and they probably could have done a better job is is that any hellie actually has that spark of rebellion that revolutionary tinge

that Kier and the family stomped out of outy hell. Completely. Yeah. Completely. Do you know what I expected? I expected that

to make them rethink what the Eni's experience is. I expected, I don't know, I was looking for, okay, so obviously that it sees the spark of cure in

Enihele, I was expecting that to like become maybe a bigger theme than what it did. Because I do have to, for him to like empathize with Ennis more? Not empathize with them, but maybe look, because essentially this thing that's so important, because it's essentially CEO leadership, right?

Sure, yeah. That maybe the prioritization would go to the NEs. That maybe he would go, oh, my God, maybe creating emotionless workers is not what I want. Maybe we can create the leaders by severing people from their outside problems and creating a new world for them. I thought that that was going to happen, but then it didn't. Well, can I ask you this? So I started thinking that, is this the first time there's been like a revolution on that

floor? Or is it the reason that they're like, we want to create like these emotionalist kind of automaton is that because remember the paintings when they were trying, when Irving was going to visit Bert at a what's his? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they like, basically they had the two paintings of each of their departments going to war. Yeah, yeah.

The green badges and the blue badges. So it's like, we know Severing is older than a decade. Like, it's not, they, they, official. So I'm starting to think of like, this on some matrix. I thought he was on some matrix. They revolt over and over again and fucking Zion. He's the one. Yeah.

He's the one and they keep doing it over and over again. See, I think hellie is actually the one. Like she's, hell he's the one. You think, uh, what's his face is the one? No, because Mark, Mark Scott. Because what's his face? Uh, big old white dude tries to kill him. They let me need Mark again.

I think Helly actually is like the one that can deliver them. The matrix and severance together. The six cycles of humanity's enslavement. The six core cycles of Zion. The six core cycles of Zion. And that's why this is what. That's why I think they have the departments. How did you get them sorry?

I think this is why they have the departments that they don't want to meet each other because they're like when they meet, they revolt. So they're like. It's like you start in the workplace. You start talking to your coworkers about how much you start making. It started like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa. Daniel, I'm about to shut the host.

We're talking about the Matrix. What you mean? Like, okay, you want me to explain the six cycles of you mean? Please don't. Please don't. I'll do it right now. Please don't. I'll do it to camera.

Make this a three hour lore video again. But here's the thing. Aren't there, what are the, there's the cycles of cure? The cycles of care. Brough, the Matrix. This is the, this is the, I'm with, and we lost a Matrix. This is the Matrix. Um, I watch, I watched the Matrix Reserrections last night.

Hell yeah. Love yourself. Love it, man. You were, you've been like, you were confused by this season. What were the things we were like, this is the most confusing show? Okay, so it's a personally confusing show. Yes. Okay.

But I think at the end of the show, the main thing I was confused about, I'm going to give you like a grand thing here. I'm confused on where we're supposed to want to go. because what's Nicholas Tatoro's character Irving? Irving. Irving.

Nicholas John Tatorre. John Tartoura. The resolution that he gets, okay. So I can make an argument that he's the cleanest character that like he,

I don't know what I'm supposed to want out of the show. I will say that when I say, When I see him kind of getting away from things or when I see where Mark is or where Helly is, I'm not sure I was confused at the end of the show because it reconciled its character questions, but it didn't reconcile to me its thematic questions. What are you supposed to want for everyone? Like, which is, it makes for a great show, but I didn't know how to kind of access where I was at the end. Because when we were talking about the show's asking these impossible. questions and it doesn't seem like there's any way for them to get to any answers that are

thematically satisfactory. Like you're asking somebody to give up their wife or to give up their life. You're asking, there's so many things that are happening and then it's like it seems like severance sometimes just shovels a bunch of questions and shit on a plate and then kind of makes you like soaking them a little bit. Does it have anything to do with the fact that like, and I think they did this for a very specific reason. First two seasons, we still know nothing about the outside world where it's still...

You only get it in weird, dark snapshots. We don't know what state this is in. Yeah. We don't really know the history of... They have smartphones, but they drive cars from like... The 1980s. You know what I mean? Where it's like everywhere we've seen where they've lived

on the outside, this is basically a key... Keir is running the state. All of the places that they lived are named after the past Kier CEOs. So I think the problem with the show is that now they're asking life questions and philosophical questions,

but we've only got to see Lumen. And sometimes we get to see where they live, but we don't really know, like, what are these life questions when we don't know, is this a post-apocalyptic world? And Severn seems to be such a central point of contention in whatever society, in whatever places is.

It's such a gigantic, fucking, big deal. But it's a global thing. This is happening across the globe. So I think for me to really fall in love with season three, I do think that they need to start opening the show. Because even when Colbell goes to that place

where she grew up. The birthing cabin. No, no, no, no. Back to her home. All right. Before we continue, let's throw to a quick. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum

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Visit your local deli today. Discover the craftsmanship behind every bite. Boershead committed to craft since 1905. Quick commercial break, we will be back very soon. All right. So, yeah, for you guys, do you think that we need to learn more? about the world that severance is in in terms of just like, because those are the big mysteries now, where it's like, yeah, I don't know. I mean, we talked about this early. We said this at the beginning.

The show's about the characters, shows about the people, the shows about Mark and Helley and Gemma and all the people on the severed floor. I think that maybe opening the world up so that we can understand or see how their actions affect the wider world, maybe. but as long as it doesn't come at an expense of our main characters, right? Because those are the people we really care about. Those are their journeys are what we're really here for. So at the end of the day, if it takes away from what's going on with Gemma and Heli and Mark and Irving and Bert, then it's not really worth it, I think.

I think, like, we yearn for wanting to learn more about the world because a world that exists with Lumen at the center of it being the and all be all of like pharmaceuticals and technology and all these other things like we want to know what that world means but again the compelling things are our characters and if we get like

fits and starts of like what we see from the outside world fine just so long as it's not from like Lumen's perspective because they keep giving us these like outside lore drops of like oh your outies were heroes that had revolted against Lumen and were celebrated for six

Pramanda. Yeah, propaganda. I would love to know more about the world, but I also would only want to know that if it's material to... If it's material to what actual characters are going on and if they would actually affect... I don't see... At a certain point, though, I don't see how it cannot be. Yeah, but I don't see them, like, I don't see this being like the ending of Fight Club

where they're, like, blowing up the, like, headquarters of Lumen Industries at the end of this. Like, I don't... But here's the thing. What I'm interested in is at the end of this season, if all of the severed employees are essentially causing a riot and they know that at least some of them, if they walk out of that door, they may never come back. There has to be some type of outer world intervention in terms of like, are they going to stage a coup where it's just like, hey, we want a lawyer to come down here and give us rights? Because like if I walk out of that door, I want some type of assurance

that I'll wake up again. You know what I mean? Those are the things where I'm like, if it's just kind of like magic fairy wanded away. I'm going to be like, hey, yo, like, they just killed, they literally just killed a man. They kidnapped Gemma. So it's like if Gemma walks out of there, what are the implications are if this state is totally key or run, can she go to the cops? Where the cops in on her kidnapping. We don't know any of that. Has there been some sort of deep, because you would think that there would be major legal implications in essentially building a set of consciousness slaves to do all kinds of stuff because there are all kinds of deep philosophical questions about personhood, about citizenry, about all of that stuff that would go into all

of that stuff. And it seems like they get, Gemma would have died. So it seems like once they reach whatever that last stage is, their Cold Harbor, it almost seems like they kill everybody who's on that lower floor. So it's like if they've been putting these baby goats into these coffins for the big care in the sky. question is I'm like, how do you do, like, how do you disappear a bunch of people

and no one is asking question? Because that is almost, it seems what Irving was trying to do. Right. Because like even like a, not to get too deeply and directly political, but even like a

pro-life, pro-choice debate comes back down to the establishment of consciousness and what it means to actually have thinking, feelings, and wants and desires and how that goes into personhood. Yeah. And how that goes into like whatever.

And so like there's a deeper question that the show obviously is going to have to, to, to approach when you're thinking about the political. Sure. And frankly, I'm actually kind of okay if the show doesn't, isn't entirely interested in answering those questions. Gotcha. Because again, the characters are compelling. If we get a sort of happy ending, quote unquote, wherever that is,

People that make this show are way smarter than me. I don't know what that looks like. But if we get a happy ending for our characters. Don't say something like that. I hate that type of shit. Negative self-talk. The people that make this show away, these are a bunch of creative people who hit one.

All right. Steve, the architect, all them. These people aren't no smarter. You're brilliant. Hell yeah. Thank you. I'm just being for real. Never.

I appreciate that. That thing right there is outlawed on the Midnight Boys. Okay. All right. I appreciate that. No, like, no. No more. No.

It's outlawed on the midnight. It's outlawed. It makes all of you guys have severances in your future. And if you don't do it, it'll be because you're not doing it. Go ahead, though. Thank you. Yeah. But I'm fine with the grander questions that the mere premise of the show doesn't answer.

Like, if we just look at those things and, like, think about it ourselves, that's what kind of great art does anyway. Like, I'm not looking for the answers. I'm just looking for the discussion. I think with what I'm really looking forward to seeing is now that Gemma is going to be, be hopefully at play a lot more in the next season. Do we see this as like, okay, we got to get a heist together to get Mark S out? Or is there a way to actually reintegrate? Are there ways to see what happens to the inies, knowing that there's been a more full-scale

revolution of a loss of an asset? I think reintegration dual consciousness would be a huge fucking cop out from the writers of the show. You think so? It doesn't even seem like it's possible. possible. Yeah. Because it's like, Petey died and it hasn't been something that any other person on the show has been

able to. And then Regabi, they failed with Mark and then Rikabi disappeared. She's just like, I'm out. I'm done. Yeah, if you call Cobel, I'm out of here. I also here's the thing, like the show has to answer some stuff like, Bert, seem like he a shooter on the outside. It seems like here.

You know, man. Crazy. You need to get on this. He's all written books. He was like, look, you got to get in the car. I was like, my man Irvin is done. I thought that was the Sopranos episode. I was like, I thought they were taking him out to the woods.

I'm like, not, Irf! Oh, my God. It's crossing all over again. Leave the gun, take the Connolly. Miller's Crossing. Yeah. That's that shit. John Tutu.

Miller's, oh, that's that shit right there. You know what's that shit? It's crossing. All right, do you want to... I think Bert's going to come, or I think Irving's going to come back. I think Irving's going to come back. And then Bert's going to be like... Like, I, Irving, Gemma, maybe team up.

You know what I'm saying? Because here's a thing. We don't, we still don't know why Irving was having the dreams or nightmares about. Had the list of folks. And we just sent him on a train. I was kind of, well, I mean, he's coming back. I think it was coming back. I mean, it could be like a soft little like, hey, man, John, you know what I'm saying?

You did good work. Maybe you don't want to come back. Maybe you do. Or we're going to put you on this train. If you don't want to come back, you could. Or maybe it'll be closer to. how Patricia Arquette's character, who we haven't talked any,

like, all about my dad with the names, guys. But like, Colbele, Covell, Covell, like about how she was kind of in and out of this season or didn't, wasn't there for the whole time.

And maybe Irvin will have, or occupy that same space. I do not, I will say, like, this season was not perfect. I do think them being like, well, Harmony,

she's the one who created Severus. I'm like, all right. That's a way bigger implication that I would really need to explore. They just dropped it on us. And I'm like, Whoa, holy the fuck.

That was probably the low light of the season for me because, like, it was cool to see Cobell, not really cool, but she was out there Thanksgiving break, saw her ex, did some drugs. No, that's cool. No, I'm saying. Who among us? But also, here's the thing. You're telling me that Lumen

has a bunch of child laborers that were over here where they were basically hooking them on ether and making them makey, like. Well, I mean, that goes back to what you were talking about earlier. Yeah. And the fact that there might not be very many rules or garrails for a loomit.

Well, so here's the thing. If I'm being like super, if we're breaking down, you got to think about it. So Keir Egan, the founder, right? He was an incest baby. So when he grew up, he had tuberculosis. Like he got all the, like he could bruise very easily. It was a painful

childhood, right? He was working with his dad, him and his brother in the ether vats. So I'm like, and then he goes to war and he's like, oh, I'm a McLuman. We're going to be, selling medical selves. So part of me is I'm like, oh, this incest baby who was hooked on a bunch of drugs makes

fucking Lumen. So a bunch of shit about his, when people are like, yeah, why is it there a bunch of security on the severed floors? Why aren't there more people? Part of me is I'm like, did he make this religious drug addicted cult? And everybody who works at Lumen are essentially people who are like, when they're like, we're running away from pain. He basically got them hooked up religious.

So it's like there's a reason there's not that many people working on these floors. Right. Because if they're not severed, they essentially all have to be super, super, super indoctrated. And that's what, I mean, that's what Colbell was. Remember she had the little thing at her crib, you know, like the, I can't remember the right word, like the altar. That's what it is.

The altar to cure over there. And then when she got fired, she tore it down. So she would be one of those people. She would be exactly what you described. Because she just gave all of her ideas to the Egan's, and they're like, we created severance. Exactly. So I'm assuming that with each successive CEO, like, they were all building basically products that would help you run away from pain. Some of it was ether, maybe some of it was pharmaceutical drugs.

And severance is the end all be all. I mean, that's Lumen's goal, right? It has to relieve the world of pain. Right. You have to think about it because they have eight, I wrote it here, they have eight core principles. Yes. No, they have nine core principles. Read them all for people.

Give it to us. Vision, verb, wit, cheer, humility, benevolence, nimbleness, priority, wiles. Now, every single CEO has been, it's one line from the original Kear Egan. The ninth would be helly. Yeah. Right? So what I think, because we've been talking about this, I think that somehow they found a way to preserve Kier's consciousness.

Yeah. And they're trying to put it in hell. Which is what I was sent on the group text and Jomi. Jomi was like so dismissing and he's like, nah. Jomey flamed me up. I think that Kier's consciousness still actually, the question I asked was, is Kira alive? But once again, we're litigating in the show what life and death actually mean.

So if his consciousness is actually alive coming through like the little doll or through the speak or whatever, then that, That means that he actually still formula. Or is the board, we've never seen the board. The board? All of the eight CEOs's consciousness. Are they still some kind of way preserved? Like Art of Zola in,

yeah. Pantheon stuff. I don't think the, I think resurrecting cure is an interesting thought. What I don't think it is, is like they've got like the Walt Disney brain frozen and a thing and they're going to, you know, somehow resurrect them.

What I do think is. Organically a lot. Yes. Yeah. I think it's literally the spirit of Kier, right? Who best embodies who Kier was? That's why when James goes down to the severed floor, he's like upset because like Kier,

he's had all these children legitimate, illegitimate, doesn't see Kier in any of them, but sees Kier in the seventh version of Helena Egan. And that's what kind of like pisses him off the most, is that if you were... It's a kicking the nuts to his entire... Yeah, if you were... If the any you was the out of you,

we'd be set. If you had this drive, this fire, if you were the person that you were on the outside that you were here, I could retire, I could go home, but I can't because you're not that. Right. Right. Or, once again, which leads me back to the situation

about the... the matrix of choices that all of these characters have. And kind of their best laid plans becoming mutated and turning out into something that they did not anticipate at all. You don't anticipate that the process that you make to enslave people creates a more desirable person. You don't anticipate having to make the decision or having to think about whether or not, you know,

a real relationship, a real relationship. Like, what is the real relationship? Is the real relationship between Audi Mark and Gemma, or is the real relationship between Eni Mark and Helly? You know, like, all of these conversations and questions that get thrown on you, the show has to eventually, at some point,

lead us to where we can understand what is actual human connection, choice, and autonomy. So then my next theory that I was, like wondering about is Gemma, what Mark is working on is a new chip that can, it's not just splitting you into

any Audi, there's different versions of you, right? Because they're trying to mass produce a severed process. So if you have a fear of the dentist, you have a fear of planes, your severed self will kick in immediately and then will resume back. Do you think Lumen is

trying to do that because their way of like reaching their basically they're a goal of no pain is like if we can mass produce enough of the severed process then essentially we can control all of humanity we can shut them off, shut them on

whenever we want. True. I definitely think that that's the deal, right? Mass production. Once again, we're going back to capitalism. Mass production of something that is okay, this is going to be a stupid example. Uncrustibles, right?

Okay. Okay. I'm here. Uncrustibles, right? It's an easily, it's a mass-produced peanut butter and jelly sandwich. When you think about the peanut butter and jelly sandwich, there's a lot around it, culturally. A peanut butter and jelly sandwich is something that you get made when you're a kid. It's a thing. It's not just a food, but it's kind of like a feeling.

Yeah. Right? So, like, when you eat the sandwich, it's like your mom made it for you with some milk for Steve. like your mom your mom made it for you with some milk you get the peanut butter jelly and sandwich and then you get to a point in your life where you make the sandwich for yourself

then you get to a point in your life where you don't want that no more. That's not something that you eat anymore because it's too caloric, it's too dense, it's too all of that stuff right? But then the uncrustables come out and essentially what they are is a mass-produced

quick dopamine hit back to your childhood and not just taste but also in experience. What I mean to say is the best companies, Disney, figure out a way to take something that is very intimate and for one specific thing and get it to as many people as they can for all different types of reasons. So that's what they're trying to do with severance.

The question of the show to me will end up being not whether or not they can do that or not, but whether or not the people that they create in trying to do that are worth it, like I said that before. Like who do you become, like when you're on the plane? Yeah. Like, does the plane person then when the plane is descending on, and generating a land, have an existential fear?

Do they know what happens? Like, what happens? Do you create an essential, like, a wave of really otherworldly, many worlds people? who live and die every single day. Slaves, yeah. The slaves, how is that, like, ethical? Obviously not, but it kind of is,

but then again, it's kind of not. And then do you want that? Because when we see Gemma in Cold Harbor, she's a ghost. She's almost not a person. Like, it's like she's lost any semblance of her person. Because we see her in that episode, she's fighting.

She's like, fuck this. I'm out of here. And now all that's gone. As human beings, we need a, our pain. Yeah. We definitely need it. It sucks, man.

But like, and this is going to be something so fucked up to say, the death of my father in ways has made me a better man, right? I wouldn't do anything. I would trade anything to have my father back. But the journey of who I am, like, as a man, I've had to do things and access things about myself and be there in ways for other people that I wouldn't have had to do if he were still around. So the reality is, and that's a really crazy thing to say, but you say that when you start

to look for meaning within terrible things that happened to you, when you start to look for why this might have happened or how this might have affected you or what this means, you start to say that the end of my father. journey on earth is a part of my journey on earth. So when you look at the show through like all of those lenses, you start to really, that's why it's so great. Because like every single time I'm watching it, I'm thinking, I don't know what the answer is here.

Yeah. And so like I don't know what the right thing is. I mean, even without what I think with Audi Mark is so interesting is that when he makes the decision to cut himself off from his pain and birth a new, a new person, we see how much. of an asshole out of the market is where it's like there's a new life in his family he has a nephew or a niece

I forget which one doesn't doesn't give a fuck when his sister is just like yo I lost my sister-in-law too he fucking he destroys her feelings he tells he he minimizes her I didn't mean to step on you but that scene

was crazy crazy he minimizes her like right he goes look and at the same once again but even in that scene you're thinking well shit he's wrong but at the same time he's right but I think if he was actually dealing with his grief I think he could be like

oh I just didn't lose my wife Gemma was more than my wife she had a connection to my sister to Rick and to all of these things and I think what's interesting is that he cuts himself off from his pain to essentially be able to move on from life and Audi's Mark's life

is shit he does not have friends he doesn't do anything he fumbles old girl at season one Yep. Like he's... I liked her. She was nice. I will, but I will just say,

this is why also I feel for Audi Mark, if I lost, if I lost Gemma for a hard show, bro. Jim Cole, bro. Jim Cole. That face card is crazy. Crazy, man. Like, I'll shoot up looming myself too.

I says, yeah, that's worth, you know, doing the whole Wesley Snipes thing for. Like, is Dychan like, Lackman? Get the name right, please. Well, Dietchen is, I don't know.

the last name. But I don't if you guys know this. You already know, baby. Come on. All right. I didn't know. It's just you're so predictable.

All right. So before we get out of here, Steve, let's walk through, let's all walk through theories. There's some popular theories we have. Some online shit. There was really mainly one that was prevailing on Reddit that was like some people debunk it.

Some people perpetuated. But it was called the Civil War theory. And it was basically, stating that the founding of Lumen happened in 1865 the year that the Civil War ended and that he was a wartime doctor Keir when he

founded the company. Which side of the Civil War was he on? I'm guessing we could probably guess. I think he was on the Union side. I would think he was on the Union side. Really? I would hope so. You think so? I mean, he likes slavery, so he might have been on the other side. That's the thing, because the prevailing theory being that this might have been an alternate

reality when the Confederacy had won the Civil War. Well, not really because we see Milchik doing this thing. He's like, he living kind of free at least. But if it was the same alternate timeline when the Civil War was won by the union, this being kind of like a resurgence of southern ideology that is like thrust through hypercapitalism and like wanting to basically enslave people and then resurrect them the important ones through basically. There's a way to make slavery more palatialism. Palatable.

Yes. I don't know. I don't see a world with a Confederate win and then Dylan is married to a white woman. Well, the reality is this. You don't have much

to say about the civil war or slavery because it didn't affect your people at all. Oh, my God. The reality is this is an FBI conversation. Oh, my, bro. You can't do this.

Because on the same, people who need to be able to handle this. On the same, you don't be like, DDo me. You just said that I'm more qualified? At least you have some skin in the game. Wow.

Jomi's people said y'all niggas handle that. Jomey's people were like, We have to come together, bro. We can't do this. We definitely do. And we will, but it's still. No, no. Jomies people were like, hey, them niggas is over there.

Like, go grab them. All right. That was really all I had. That was all I had. So I like the Civil War theory. I like it too. I like the Civil War. One of my theories, Natalie and Milchek.

Oh. A light skin woman, the secretary. I think she went through a kind of coal harbour situation as well. And she don't remember. Because I think they both probably went to one of them schools. And they had a little bit of thing. They had like a love between each other. And that's why, like, Milchick was just like, hey, yo, he's kind of been looking for a little bit of like.

Connection. Connection. Yeah. And I think she's just like totally fucking gone. on some gym and shit. Huh? I love her. Her reaction is though

when somebody's talking to her but she's not listening. The board is ended at the call. Yeah. The board's ended the call and she's just like gone. Yeah. One question we really didn't ask though.

Is it cheating? If your girl starts fucking your any. Are you holding that against her? I'm going to say yeah. So here's the thing. It's not, but it is. It doesn't feel like it.

Yeah. This is where we're getting to the emotional. Because you're going to be like, because really, when you really a G, then you know it's really not about anything else other than how that person makes you feel. So if your girl is looking at you like, hey, man, you know, your any is essentially the same person, but he made me come alive, you're going to be like, fuck that, Nick. Yeah. Like, you know what I'm saying? It's going to feel, it's not, but it's going to feel like cheating. Yeah, that's ultimately.

It's ultimately, it's also what it comes down to because what it is is you compete in with. somebody. And it's yourself. And it's yourself. That's ultimately, yeah, like, it's a much of my point. But here's a thing, it's like, I can only get so mad because it's like, and she's described, she's like, yeah, man, he rocked my world and I got to think about that shit. I'm like, it's still my face. It's still me.

But she's talking about you. But she's talking about you crazy. But she's getting, I don't want to get too graphic. But she is reacting physically to him for a different reason, right? It's like Superman and Clark Kent. Ooh.

Like, if you're, if you're Clark Kent, before Lois New, Moronical, but before Lois knew, you're trying to get it with her as Clark Kent, and she's not feeling it. But then Superman comes around. You know that that's you, but you're like, he got all the swag, he got this, he got that, it's the same

thing. You're jealous of Superman, even though Superman's you. But, I mean, the thing, the thing different with Superman is that he has to have those two lines separate, right, between being Clark and being Superman. You don't want to mess that up, at least for the most part. Maybe with lowest down the line, but initially it's like, you want to keep that. Even if you know, like, hey, I'm superman.

I got my thing going on. You still want to be, keep those lines separate. For the inies and outies, you want to be one person. You'll want to be two halves of a person. So when. Maybe. When Dylan's wife comes back and says like, I kissed your Audi. I kissed your iny.

He made me feel some type of way that you never made me, if you haven't made me feel a long time. that is like a shotgun shell to the chest. Audi Dillon is a fuck up though, bro. Yeah, man. Outie Dillon is funny. She defended him. But Audi Dillon is a fuck up. Any Dillon has purpose.

He has a G. He's been able to stick there and stay there. He has a per-I-Dillan. And I'm not going to lie. When he's talking to her, he really like, he be looking at her. There's love in the eyes. He's like, you don't only want to me. And honestly, Audi Dillon, kind of paid respects to any Dillon.

Yeah. the letter. He's like, listen, I like that you're around. Couldn't be me. She's perfect. That was sweet. That's the best case for maybe. Yeah. But here's the thing. This sucks and I don't like you for that, but I get it. This is the thing where I'm just like the Emmys and Audies are basically one person because

like at the dinner when Irvin goes to Burton or whatever, Homeboy is just like, damn, yo, outy's a slut and you know the same person. You know what I'm saying? You're cheating on your man so much that you got to get severed and still a problem. Yeah, that's crazy. Guys, what a great show. What a great fucking show. What a great fucking show.

So, oh, well, before we go, midnight, boys, we got to be real. You're any on the sever floor. You're running, you running, you running. Do you go with Gemma as she's banging on the door? I can't account for it. And you go to that. I can't account for that. It's really not a...

It's impossible. It's not impossible. It's impossible for me to really answer the question. thought about it so much. If I go out that door, I'm dead. I guess you're right. That's it. If I go out the door, I die.

I know if I'm not even a human thing to go out the door because you're trying to lose some preservation. It's a survival instinct, right? Like, Helly over there, the love of my life, I know that if I go that way, I can stay there. We can be in love. I mean, who knows what's going to happen. Yeah, but here's a thing.

But I'm going to be real. I'm scared too because, like, I'm scared too, because, like, I'm, I'm I Merck the man. And now essentially my whole world is this one building. The one building. You know what I'm saying? It's one floor. Remember they were talking about the equator?

Like a tall building? Like that's a building? I thought that was funny. But do you choose a finite? You would. Finite or death? Yeah. I think I'm running.

Here's a thing. I think I want to say I would go to Gemma because Gemma bad as hell. But it's like I'm not even going to be able to enjoy it. And at least I got the love of my life. we got a 30 minutes we got three hours at least you know

I'm which because here's the thing too he's probably thinking damn because also we didn't talk about this the minute he leaves that door they're basically like yo you leave this door you're condemning everybody on this everybody goes with everybody goes with and he's probably like yo I can't

I'm abandon Ellie Dylan all of them so it's not just he's running back to be with hellie he's just like if I'm going down I'm going down with the innies fuck this shit which is also why, like, I'm kind of now on any Mark's side a little bit. I see it.

I get it. I get it. I just think about the hell that Audi Mark has been through, and it sometimes draws me back in. But once again, these are the questions that make the show so compelling. Yeah. That's great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Midnight meter.

Midnight. Oh, 12. 12? No, 11. I'm just joking. Seriously, 11. I think in 11, too. Yeah.

Think of 11's right. And let me tell you something. This is not a shot at my people over at Apple. if it was on Netflix, it would be at 12. Because the... I mean, Netflix maybe... If this was... No, no, no.

If this was air in HBO at 6 p.m., it would be... Oh, my God. The impact of part of it stops it from being... And by the way, even still, though, I could argue for a 12. I could argue for a 12 because I think that this show... I mean, T. T. Lassso, notwithstanding, I think that this show is injecting the Apple TV dynamic

into because Apple TV has a lot of great shows I think this show is doing so much work for Apple TV in terms of the cultural market share that it has that you can make an argument that its impact

particularly this season was as well I mean but also can we look at everything that's been releasing I think Severance at this point in terms of just like engagement people arguing bigger than Daredevil all par with White Lotus

you know White Lotus might have more viewership but in terms of like market share of like motherfuckers ain't really arguing about White Lotus in the way they're like, hellie, jemma, da-da-da-da-da-da-da. So it's a game changer in terms of if I'm at Apple, I'm like, this is the biggest win we've probably had ever.

On Apple Plus. I agree. Well, because, I mean, to your point, when I get into, when I get into severance and I'm, you know, finish episode, go online, it is insane the kind of conversations. Like, I don't think we've had things like this

since House of the Dragon. is really, really throwing this show into the stratosphere. It's nuts. Every single pod in our space, nerds is covering this show. Yeah. It's crazy. The only reason it's 10th for me, it's not because of just how big it is. I think it could be bigger like if it was on HBO, but I think it's still like enormous enough.

So I think there was some stuff this season, the Cobell stuff, the reintegration stuff, that kind of just like missed, like kind of missed for me a little bit. But other than that, man, this is just a phenomenal season of television. I would put it at a nine for myself. It's not hitting 10 just yet because I have a little bit more of a few more problems with the series. But again, it's fine. Here's the thing. I thought, I thought y'all was going to, I like the season a little more than Steve, but I do agree that nine is a fair score.

I would give the season finale at 12. I give the Gemma episode of 12. Oh, yeah. The Gemma is one of the best episode of television. I just think like this is a very strong nine. and depending upon how the year shakes out for us, it might be a 10 or 11, because we're going to do midnight mulligans.

Because I'm like, right now of the shows that I've watched, this is up there with adolescents. I think I'm enjoying Severin's two more than white motors. Adolescence is a different beast. That's a move. This thing, shout out to Y, but Sierra got to start giving trigger warnings because he'll be like, yo, you should watch this shit.

I'll watch Lioness. They blowing up motherfuckers in the first five. I'm like, God. I dare. Yeah. Y'all got it. It's a good show. It's an amazing.

It's an amazing. Damn. I love myself too much. All right. So 2-11s. Excuse me, 2-1s, 2-9s. It's very high, very high price for seven. 10.

10-even. 10-even. That is a wrap. Since we're going to meet, rigorous feed, tomorrow, Buttmash returns with their thoughts on Assassin's Creed Shadow.

Wednesday, Midnight boys are back with their reactions to Daredevil. And on the House of Our Feed, yellow jackets, and Daredevil coverage. continues. Our producers are Alea, S-O-B-Zanaris.

That's stand-on-business, Zanaris. Yes. Don't get it twisted. Don't get it twisted. Jomi, the explainer of dinner on, hashtag be the milk on social. An additional production from

Arjuna, Billichick, Ranga Pal. Chuck, take us out. Severn Season 2 stuck the landing. Shout out to all of our any homies. And I want to send special love to the white girl inside of Joe. Be-hoo!

All right, we're back. I'll just start it, whatever. Charles, tell us, you got the waves. I'll see you on Instagram. What are you saw? Hey, coming soon, man. Come on Instagram. No, you don't.

He's got the waves. I've seen these guys, the waves are a big deal. I'm waiting for a van's wave reveal. Not going to happen. No? No? Wait, why not? That's just don't, because they took the hair from the back and they put it in the front.

Yeah, but it's going to grow, right? It's going to grow, but it's not the same texture of it. Yeah, but you can do a fake, though. You could, but, like, I don't think, I don't think the waves are going to be a thing. I think I just want to good. I also, because the amount of brushing, I feel like you want to be very gentle to the new follicles and shit. Let the follicles go. I think that what I, what I'm worried about is that I'll have a Republican hairline.

Oh. This is what I have to say. We talk about black Republicans and, you know, we lamb-based them a lot. But look, reality is there are a lot of different political opinions in the country. You know, people are allowed to have their political opinions. We should all be able to talk about more things in politics.

But what will not, will not ever, ever, ever, ever be tolerated is the fact that there is a lack of good barbers on the right. Yep. Every single nigger on. on the right that you see has a fucked up line. And I'm not talking about you homies out there in the community. I know some of y'all doing just fine. But when I'm on TV and I see the black Republicans,

their lines are crazy. I think that's why they usually have, like, white wives because, like, you know, if you were with a black woman, you'd be like, your hair lines fucked up. Your hair's fucked up. Don't you go get your shit taken care of? I see what you mean. Like, I see where you're coming from.

But is it less. that because I don't know about the barbershops you've been in, but they've been something most toxic, just complete, like, you talk about, like, right leaning. Some of those takes, they be really on that side of the, but they don't identify as magas. I don't community. Yeah, but here's the thing, the maga blacks don't, they're not surrounded by a lot of,

but that's what I'm saying. Is it not that they're not in the community as much as they just gain their haircut by white people? Why do the, I'm not saying it could be. Why did the guys, Bacar Sela's got a good line? You know what I mean? I can think of it. Akeem Jeffrey's line is fine.

Because they're getting the hood. That's what I'm saying. So, like, I just, before we get into the show, man, tighten up. Y'all want to black vote. Get the black line. Last thing. Sometimes when I be watching, like, some of the international programming, like sometimes, like a UK show.

Oh, I'm fucked up. Like, I'm like, I'm like, I was shout out to my UK, brother. It's different. It's different. It's different. They hair always. I'm like, dog, just,

it's different. It's, it's different. But, you know, shout out to them. Like, do you can't? Wait, they got black, they don't got no black barbers in the UK.

They definitely do. They do. They do. They do. That's why it makes it inexcusable. I mean, bro, Janice and Wemby, they don't be having no line.

I'm serious. Yonis plays what other line far too much. Okay, what about K. Okay, what about KD? KD. Different. KD.

KD. Do it. You know, we know that he could. could have. He's had a line in the past. But he just got to the point to he was like, fuck it.

I get buckets and not lines. Will you, does it ever get that deep, though? I can't imagine a day where I'm like, no, forget the line. Here's the thing. If I'm KD, I do think that it was kind of like a deal with the devil

thing where it's like, you could be one of the greatest basketball players of all time. Your hair's just going to be fucking. Guys, we haven't even started talking. I apologize to the audience. Okay. We got to get back.

All right.