The Ringer-Verse - ‘She-Hulk’ Episode 2 Reactions

Episode Date: August 25, 2022

Ben Lindbergh and Khal Davenport break down Episode 2 of ’She-Hulk: Attorney at Law.’ They start by talking about their overall thoughts on the series so far (5:12), before recapping the latest episode (14:08). Later, they talk about how the episode crosses over with the rest of the MCU (22:17). Finally, in honor of Blonsky’s comeback, they each come up with a haiku about the show (50:41). Hosts: Ben Lindbergh and Khal Davenport Associate Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, my name is Dave Gonzalez, and I haven't read any of the books in George R. Martin's The Song of Ice and Fire. I'm Joanna Robinson. I've read every book in George R. Martens, A Song of Ice and Fire. And I'm Neil Miller, and I have also read all of those books. We are headed back to Westeros to cover the Game of Thrones spin-off series, House of the Dragon. We'll be answering your question, so send us a raven at trial by content at gmail.com. Take some bread and salt and join us Thursdays on the trial by content feed, and don't worry, you're safe. The reins of Castamere hasn't even been written yet. With Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start.

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That's free. No. No, that's for somebody called She-Hulk, which can't possibly be what they're calling me. Lady Hulk, Girl Hulk, She-Hulk. Come on. Just give them what they want. Hello, and welcome into the Ringerverse, the Ringer's Nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. No need to stand, but this episode is in session. I am the Honorable, sometimes Honorable Ben Lindberg, a senior editor at the Ringer. I'm joined by my fellow senior editor, Cal, making his Ringerverse debut.

Cal, congrats on losing your ringerverse virginity. Cap would be proud. Thank you. I didn't realize it was going to be for the Shee Hulk, but I'm happy to be here. Would you mind if we saved your origin story for a future episode instead of taking a page from the Sheehulk playbook and squeezing it all into your first episode? That's probably preferred. My origin story may be a little bit more detailed, but I will say I did appreciate that. I did appreciate that.

Right. Just imagine all the mind-body beach stuff happening off-screen here. We worked that out already. You mastered your podcasting powers so fast that made me jealous. So suffice it to say, you're a lifelong Marvel fan. You wrote about She-Hulk last week for the Ringer.com. What a great website. And you're pretty into this series so far as something new for the MCU, as in my.

Yeah, with a lot going on in Phase 4, which we may get into a little bit later, that's been kind of confusing. It's been fun to just have a show that doesn't take the MCU so seriously and it allows itself to have a lot of fun. So some of you have heard me on this feed before doing deep dives into Star Wars, but huts and Twylex and Trandotions and whatever we're calling Yoda and Baby Grogues these days are not the only green-skinned characters I am licensed to discuss. I've taken an intensive crash course in She-Holk history,

so I'm ready to lay some lore on you as, needed, but a few programming notes before we get to today's topic. Joanna Robinson has already racked up about six hours of podcasting this week, but she's just getting warmed up. So she and Mallory Rubin will be back with a House of Our Rings of Power Primer on Friday. Then you can catch Mal and Joe and Chris on Talk the Thrones, giving their instant reactions to episode two of House of the Dragon on Sunday. House of Our will do their hot-de deep dive next Tuesday, followed by more Midnight Boys on

Wednesday. And of course, I and others will be back with weekly She-Hulk coverage. So we've got a full feed for you all. And with Rings of Power and Andor and Bad Batch and more right around the corner, it is only going to get busier, which is why we're here, Cal, they're calling up the reserves. Yeah, how about that? When you're doing the shows about the C&D level characters, you get some C&D level pot. No, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Don't sell us short. We have no name, no logo, no special theme song. There's Hasavar, there's the Midnight Boys, there's Mint Edition. I guess that makes this the phase four of ringerverse. So we're short-handed on hosts and heroes, so we're working in some fresh blood, letting some new voices step up to the mic. We'll try to make this more

of a Shang-chi debut than an Eternal's debut, but we'll see how it goes. So Steve and Jomey started us off with the pod on the premiere of She-Hulk Attorney-at-Wa last week. And now, Now we're here to discuss episode two entitled Superhuman Law, directed by Kat Koiro and written by creator and show owner Jessica Gao. I feel like Mal and Joe laid down the infinity gauntlet with that almost three and a half hour dragon deep dive this week. They're just daring us to top them. So the question is, can we clear our schedules and do four hours on She-Hulk episode two? You with me? I may have a couple things going on later today.

We'll see. Clear your afternoon. cancel your meetings. We're here for the long haul. No, I don't doubt that we could do it, but don't worry. I'm kidding. I just wanted to make Arjuna nervous. This was a short She-Hulk, so we'll try to keep this tighter than America's ass.

So in the interest of speeding things along and getting in the She-Hulk spirit, let's stick to a trial-style format for this one. So we'll start with some opening statements. So in an interview with Variety last week, Jessica Gao revealed that the origin story and the training sequence, that made up most of last week's pilot were originally slated for episode eight of the nine-episode season. So it was decided during post-production to rearrange the order and bump up the Jen Bruce bonding time because of concerns that the audience would have a hard time getting to know Jen before finding out how she got to be Sheehulk. So it's probably safe to assume that this second episode is more in line with the original plan for the premiere. And it's also sort of the official kickoff for the fun lawyer show that Jen Welter's team.

used last week. So in some ways, this was the real premiere. So first question, how do you feel about the sequencing of these episodes? And were you ready to bid goodbye to Bruce, if in fact that was goodbye, and get down to legal matters? Well, you know, I will say, Ben, when we, I don't want to flex or anything like that, but when they sent, you know, four episodes of the show and we got to watch the screeners for the piece that went up on the site last week, I was thinking that they were going to drop the first two the first week, because it felt like a good compliment. You get

the, if you want the full story about how Jen becomes Sheehawk, you know, she didn't tell anybody she was Shehawk. That's the name she was given we found it this week. But if you wanted that, you got that, and then you got to see what the show was really supposed to be. So I'm, I was kind of surprised that they let the origin story

hang like that, because I felt like it wasn't a true representation of what the show can be. And I think episode two, and you being able to jump right, into her being the super powered lawyer for superpowered beings in trouble. I think it's great. I was glad to see Smart Hulk get on that ship and fly the hell wherever he's going so we can actually get down to the hardcore lawyer.

Yeah. Well, we'll talk about where he might be going. But after reading that interview, I think the episode's surgery was pretty apparent, like pivoting from Jen practicing her power and responsibility speech at the start of the premiere to the car crash and the whole origin story was like a little bit of a record scratch. Yep, that's me. You're probably wondering how I got here moment. And, you know, Titania makes her big entrance in the literal courtroom battle and then basically disappears this week. So the sequencing may be sort of jarring in some ways, but I can't complain too much about front-loading the backstory. I mean, there may have been a more

adventurous and less linear way to structure this season. And I know there's a lot of origin story fatigue here at the tail end of phase four. But when you're dealing with a lesser known character, as opposed to reintroducing Spider-Man or Superman or Batman for the umpteenth time, they could make some sense to catch people up before you get to episode eight, right? It's a long way to wait. But that's what I couldn't imagine what we would be like week six with people. How the hell did she become She-Hulk?

Like, you know, at some point, just get it over with, rip the band-aid off completely. So second question. In this episode, we got another glimpse of smart. Art Hulk, we got Abomination and callbacks and tie-ins to The Incredible Hulk and Shang Chi. We got potential teases for X-Men, Planet Hulk, or World War Hulk, and Thunderbolts. We got an Eternals Easter egg. We have the stage set, possibly for a Wong appearance. How are you feeling about how this series is situated within the larger MCU and the focus on

Chi Hulk as a standalone character versus Sheik Hulk as a cog in the Marvel Machine? And how do you think that balance has been? And what would you want the balance to be? Well, I will say that I hope by seasons and we get more of a, we get some more focus on Sheehawk and Jen, as opposed to Shehawk as part of this company inside of the MCU. It's, uh, it can feel like this is more of a show about the MCU as opposed to the show about a character who is going through her own situations.

still learning how to work with their powers. But I don't think, because the show doesn't feel like it has next to any stakes right now, it's kind of, it's fine, you know. In my world, I hope that Marble takes some more risk to do less, you know. Be able to make a sitcom within this hyper-serious, hyper-insane world and not have to worry about having to have it be so, like, it's, it's, it's, but it's not like the fate of phase four depends on what happens in the season one finale is Shealk, you know what I mean?

Right. Yeah, here's the thing. She-Hulk has never really existed as a solo act. I mean, I am not a She-Hulk scholar or completest, or at least I wasn't a few weeks ago. But to prepare for these pods, I've spent a lot of time in the Superhuman Law Library. I'm riffling through the long boxes of She-Hulk comics from Stan Lee to Rainbow Rowell. And no matter which She-Hulk book you read, it's pretty rare for her to go more than a couple issues without some kind of crossover. Obviously, Bruce is part of her story from the start, but her legal work brings her into contact with all kinds of heroes and villains.

And she's been in and out of the Fantastic Four and the Avengers and Future Foundation and the fearsome four and the Lady Liberators and A-Force and probably a bunch of other teams that everyone forgot ever existed. She's been part of the secret wars and the civil wars. Like, Shehulk gets around in the Marvel universe. And so part of the irreverent self-referential nature of the characters is that she tends to be pretty self-deprecating. There are a lot of references by She-Hulk and other characters in She-Hulk comics to her being a C-E-R-B-List superhero, no offense to Jen, and needing cameos to boost interests and sales.

Like the cover of the third issue of John Burns' sensational She-Holk has her saying, it's my third issue, time for an obligatory guest star. And it's Spider-Man. Now, they couldn't get clearance to use Spider-Man characters in this series, but I think the same principle applies. Like, she's always been a joiner and an ally and a character connector. So as much as I like the occasional outlier like Moon Knight that kind of does its own thing, I think it's consistent with She-Hulk's history and occupation to be pretty plugged into the MCU. I just hope there's still some time devoted to the legal procedural aspect. that set the series apart, because based on Gow's comments, it sounds like the courtroom drama

got dialed back a bit during the writing process. Right, right. This episode really drills down on one of the core themes of She-Hulk and a lot of superhero stories, for that matter, which is becoming comfortable with your identity, just figuring out who you are around others, who you are on the inside, trying to resolve or embrace the tension between those two things. So I guess the answer might depend on your powers, but for you, what's the ideal breakdown between time spent as your alias and time spent in your superhero persona? I was going to say, yeah, it may be power dependent because if I could fly, I'm probably spending a good amount of time.

You know, if I was a superhero that involved flying, half a day could be spent just, you know, patrolling. Yeah, I'm just patrolling the area. Really, I'm just getting a joy. But, you know, I think it's one of those things where it might actually depend more on what your regular life is. Like, if you're married with children and you have vacations and all these things, like, if you're the only person in the household that has superpowers, you're going to have to learn how to weave your superheroing in or your villainy into, you know, what the rest of the family's got going on.

Are you going to make sure you're going to make the soccer game? You know, there's a movie coming out on Friday. Like, you know, you got to make the movie with the kids. in the pizza later. No, but it's definitely, I would love to not, I would love to be able to make it a good, like, enthusiastic hobby. You know what I mean? Like, I don't want to spend all night as Batman, but, you know, like a three-day weekend, you know, I like set up a mission. That would be great. You know, I just need to schedule it properly, make sure I got enough time. Yeah, I guess anything gets old after a certain amount of time, even superpowers.

And not that many superheroes have a healthy work-life balance for the most part or like a flourishing family life, which kind of frees up time for being a superhero and or villain. So I guess that helps a little bit. And it depends on the character too. I mean, not even what we would prefer, but what we prefer in what we read or what we watch, right? I mean, you're watching Miss Marvel, for instance. Like, her family life is incredibly compelling in that show. it's not always the case. Sometimes you're like, all right, let's get to the crime fighting and the punching, right? But sometimes that could be the highlight. So let's move on to the evidence stage. This will be our episode recap. So let's present the evidence by describing what went down here in episode two. So we pick up after Jen busts out of her suit and outs herself as she Hulk to save the jury from Titania at the end of the premiere. She puts the beat down on her. So now she's the new superhero hotness. And everyone at the bar is chanting she Hulk, like she's Norm walking into cheers. She's not happy about the derivative, an original name, and she's not interested in a new career. She says, I did not go to law school and rack up six figures in student loans. Hopefully some of those just got forgiven to become a vigilante. That is for billionaires and narcissists and

adult orphans, for some reason. Shots fired at almost every other superhero there. Geez. As we were just saying, not always healthy, happy home life's perfect superheroes. So her friend Nikki assures her that Hulk Jen is a total snack. She's got great hair, and She Hulk has other non-cosmetic advantages. We learned about the drinking last week. Jen Walters can't hold Hulk Jen's liquor. But even though she's a hero, she gets fired from the DA's office because GLK and H got her case declared a mistrial on the grounds that she biased the jury by saving their lives. Understandable, but what was she supposed to do? So she goes out for interviews.

She can't get a job because everyone is worried she'll be a distraction. She has an awkward family dinner where she learns that her mom is just handing out her number to baristas left and right. And as we see in the Stinger, she has to switch to She-Hulk form to help with heavy-duty chores at home too. So you'd think that her hosts here would be cool about having another Hulk in the family. They've been through this before. But they're constantly comparing her to Bruce. So on the plus side, she has not leveled any cities like he has. But on the other hand, she has not saved billions of lives by reversing the snap.

So Gow says her favorite kind of comedy is taking a very high concept thing, like an extraordinary being who is a Hulk, and then grounding them in the minutia of everyday life. And I don't know about you, but the awkwardness of that dinner scene felt true to me, even as someone without superheroes, did that cause any flashbacks for you? Yeah. I mean, it's the, what do you do, you know, like sitting down at Thanksgiving? Because nobody in my family has a real concept of like writing for the Internet or like anything like that. Yeah, you can. And it's not to say that they look at you any lesser, but it never feels like it's always like a, yeah, oh, yeah, that's great. You know, and she could have saved the world with a great case or whatever, put somebody away.

But it is what it is. But, yeah, I think they really nailed the dinner scene in a number. And I think you mentioned the Stinger. Of course, the family is going to, oh, I can't. She's got his powers. Oh, yeah, we got, let's get these waters up. You know, I got to get this. I don't have a jack.

Let's get this tired. Like, you know, yeah, you're doing everything. You're doing everything, Jen. Yeah, yeah. I host Ringervor's podcast. It doesn't produce the impression at the. Thanksgiving that you'd think it might. Maybe in some households, that would go over big. But it's where you do what for where? Okay. Good for you. So, Jen is not after this point.

After she escapes from her family's house, she goes back to the bar that's playing reruns of Allie McBeal, which raises the question, I think, of whether people on Earth 616 think it's strange that the actor Robert Downey Jr. looks a lot like Tony Sark, because he is in some seasons of that show, but we'll put that aside for a second. So Mr. Holloway, the name partner who puts the H in GLK&H, he strolls up. He tries to hire Jen. She jumps at that job, but when she shows up for her first day, she finds out that there's a catch. Let's play that clip.

It is an exciting time at GLK&H. More and more eccentric superhumans are coming out of the woodwork. We just started a superhuman law division. And I want you, well, the Shee Hulk to be the face of it. Oh. That means I'll expect you to be at work and in court as the Shee Hulk, not as a normal person. So Jen feels like she's being used for her fame as Shee Hulk, and she's worried her colleagues won't think she's qualified, even though she is, which harkens back, I think, to last week's speech about how anger and fear are the baseline of any woman just existing and how Jen is great. is great at controlling her anger because she has to do it all the time. That was, in a sense,

sort of a mission statement for this show. And she's showing that here. She didn't ask to be Shee Hulk. She didn't ask to be named Shee Hulk. And now she's being given this job on the condition that the person she was be completely subsumed into her new identity as Shehulk. So that's a lot to adjust to. And there's some precedent in the comics for this because the level of lawyering, in the various She-Hulk books varies pretty widely, as does the form she takes when she's at work. So in Dan Slot's 2004 run, the same sort of thing happens. There's a mistrial declared because of a biased jury because she saved the world so many times. So GLK and H hires her, except that in that case, they want her to be Jen, not She-Hulk.

So it's sort of the reverse. And then in the 2014 Charles Sol run, she's She-Hulk almost all the time. And in the current run, she switches back and forth, so it really varies. But in the show, on the plus side, she has the big corner office. She gets to work with Nikki. One of her new colleagues is Pug, who's a character from the Dan Slot Shehulk run, who's played here by the great Josh Cigara from Arrow and the other two. And he's such a nice guy that he tells her the best place to poop,

which is a crucial piece of office intel, especially if you eat as much as a 650 pounds. Hulk. I mean, I know we're many of us working from home these days, so we have the route down. We don't have to go far, but that could be clutch depending on the office. So then Jen finds out about another serious string attached. She has to represent Emil Blonski, a.k.a. Abomination at his parole hearing because the firm wants the publicity. And this is going to cause some issues. This is non-negotiable. Either she takes this assignment or or she's out. So she has some serious reservations because of Blonsky's battles with Bruce,

but she agrees to go visit him at the Department of Damage Control's ultra-high-security prison. Blonsky tells her he's a changed man. He says he's reformed himself physically, spiritually. He explains that he's not responsible for his past actions because he was all hopped up on super-soldier serum that the government gave him at the time. Jen is somewhat persuaded, decides to take the case. she calls her cousin ostensibly to get the go-ahead on taking on Blonsky as a client, but really to tell him that she's made her decision. So Bruce jets off to Sikar to save the CGI budget, I guess, and seems like he's gotten much more confident in Jen's adjustment than he was last week

when it was like, don't leave because you might destroy a city block if you lose your temper. Now he's like, I'm going to leave the solar system. You see him all set. So he's presumably on some pretty important business. So Jen tells Holloway she's in. And then before the credits roll, a wrench gets thrown into her defense because some footage of the abomination fighting Wang in the club from Shang Chi leaks, which means that Jen will somehow have to explain Blonsky's little field trip to the parole board at the hearing. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matter.

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Let's move on to the cross-examination phase here, where we talk about the crossovers in this episode, of which there were many. So first, what do you make of Tim Ross's pretty deep-cut return as Blonsky, who, aside from the Abominations' brief appearance in Shang-Chi, we really haven't seen since the second MCU movie and one of the more obscure MCU movies, 2008's The Incredible Hulk. Ben, when I tell you how long I've been, because Marvel can't make the Hulk movie that I think they want, the Hulk movies they've been wanting to make, they've been like weaving this Hulk story in throughout the MCU. So to be able to take and not just take the abomination and throw somebody else in the role, but to go back and make sure you got the man Tim Raw. And it's, it's a very comic book. Like, I would assume that a smart writer would be writing an abominational. who has had time to reflect on life and, you know, gain some spirituality, writing hycunes and everything.

A little less abominable than he used to be. Yeah, 100%. It's a fun turnaround. And I think it felt, again, you know, you talked about the different comic book runs. It felt like some of the things I liked about the more procedural runs in the comic books for She-Hulk, where she was able to take. It's a little bit humorous to humorous take on what the trials and tribulations on, like, in the 616. And I think this take felt very genuine for me.

And the fact that they had the clip at the end, because I've been waiting to hear about that since I was sitting in the theater. I said, oh, wait, that's the abomination in there. And I'm remembering the conversation between him and Wong during the match. And like, yeah, that's smart. I don't know where they're going,

but I know that they're at least paying attention. They're making sure that I'm clued into that they're paying attention. So I enjoyed it. I really enjoyed it. Right. I think Gao has said that that scene was in Shang Chi in the first place because they knew that this was coming and so they were setting it up for us. So he mentions being on loan to the U.S. government. There's been some speculation that he may end up in the Thunderbolts lineup. So that movie is still two years away at this point. And Gao predictably declined to say whether Blonsky's role in this series is setting up anything else. But if Jen does her job and springs him from prison, maybe he's Valentina swoops in, adds him to a roster. He's also supposed to be in Marvel Zombies. So he's going to be a presence, it sounds like, at least in part of this series. And presumably, these things happen for a reason, right? You know, bring back Blonsky after

almost 15 years just to have him play a bit part in one Disney Plus series. So we're all just kind of reading the tea leaves here. But nice that the Incredible Hulk gets a little love after all this because that movie is not one of the more praised or best remembered MCU films. It's one of those things that remind you that they were not this cognizant of the MZU when it first started out. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, no, they were not thinking about She Hulk in 2008 when they were making the Incredible Hulk.

So another crossover here. So last week we saw the Sakharan spaceship caused Jen and Bruce's car crash. Bruce said it was probably trying to deliver a message. and that he'd have to get to the bottom of it. Evidently he did, and pretty quick, because when he talks to Jen in episode two, he is piecing out of the solar system and possibly the series, for all we know,

presumably on his way to Sikar. So thoughts on the significance of this interstellar trip here? That's one of the things where I'm kind of like anything. I don't know. I've been wondering about space in the MCU and he's someone that's been in the space before, so I'm going to assume that maybe there was trouble that only a Hulk can handle, you know what I mean?

But where that will pick up, it's tough to say. I know there are some, they've teased Secret Wars, I believe, for, you know, later on in phases five and six. And maybe it's something to do. I don't know. It's tough to say for me. I'm not as versed on that side of Hulk's story in the comics to know.

where he's going to be going. But is there any, am I close? Well, you're right that he's spent a ton of time in space, probably more time than he cared too. I think what people are hoping is that we're one step closer to a fuller-fledged planet Hulk than we got in Ragnarok or even a World War Hulk in that whole storyline, which again is pending Marvel Universal Distribution Rights Squabble. which you alluded to earlier. I remember that was kind of where we were at at Ragnarok. And I don't want to say that's not the case, but I'm just, I'm going to need to see something that's going to let me know

that MCU is able to dip in those bags for the Hulk specifically. Right. So maybe the message was, hey, come do something about your son's scar now that you're healed. It's time to be a hands-on Hulk dad, come get your man. Maybe that's a tease for season two. Right. It's hard to say whether this is setting up a whole separate Hulk series or movie down the road or whether he'll be back by the end of this season. We don't know whether this is the end of him in She-Hulk season one at least. But unless this is just a wild misdirect or just getting Jeff Goldblum back or something, I mean, it seems like this is building up to something. Obviously, people are excited, people who are into Hulk and all of his big comic storylines and work. World War Hulk, et cetera, they're hoping that we're going to get a series or a movie that will actually do justice to those things. Remains to be seen, but they're clearly dropping breadcrumbs here.

And speaking of breadcrumbs that could lead to some anticipated project, when Jen is browsing offbeat jobs, she's looking into becoming a mascot when she's desperate. One of the headlines on her screen says, man fights with metal claws in bar brawl. Now, that sounds like only one person than I can think of. I mean, I guess anyone could theoretically fight with metal claws in a bar brawl. It probably has happened. But when you read that, you think Wolverine. So is this a throwaway gag? Is this canonical confirmation that Wolverine exists in the MCU now?

Is this just building buzz for the X-Men 97 series? Is this just a red herring? What do you see this as? as a fan of Wolverine and the X-Men growing up, I hope it's confirming that Wolverine is going to be in the MCU at some point. I will be upset if they were just like out throwing Allie McBeal in the TV who's making a random reference because of where they are. And with the Hulk and Wolverine's history in the comics,

you know, how people come about, it's one thing that I would like to see. I don't know if that would mean that. that they would be debuting, like would they be backdoor piloting a Wolverine into a series like this? But for me, it's a strong indicator that they've at least got something going on with the X-Men and or just mutants in general in the MCU. Right. Mutants have made their way in after the Miss Marvel finale and X-Men were notably absent from the several years-long roadmap that Marvel most recently presented for the MCU. So there's still some uncertainty about the timing there, but there are a lot of indications that it's coming.

And just generally, it's a safe bet that any popular character who has existed, as soon as it's legally viable to integrate them into the MCU, that will be done. So whether this is just a throwaway little line and an Easter egg for everyone or whether it portends something concrete, we will see. But I enjoyed it regardless. And here's the thing. I think what I most appreciate about the crossover,

in this series so far isn't the possible setups for future projects, but the way that the writers are poking fun at the MCU and incorporating common fan talking points, like last week we got an answer to the question of Capp's virginity, and we got a tribute to the science boyfriends, Bruce and Tony. This week, we got a winking reference to Eternals, right? Because the other visible headline on Jen's screen in that scene says, Why is there a giant statue of a man sticking out of the ocean?

Which is an excellent question. Seems like it should be a very common question in the MCU at this point. I hope that article is getting great traffic. So that's not all, though, because we also got Jen wondering aloud this week, do the Avengers offer health care, maternity leave, a pension? Are they even paid? We've all wondered that, I think, since the Falcon and the Winter Soldier, if not before. And even in the comics, Jen is sometimes strapped for cash when she's an Avenger.

She's happy just to get free room and board. So we also got Jen's dad wondering whether Hawkeye collects his arrows when he's done. And then when Bruce is talking about Blonsky, he says, that fight was so many years ago, I'm a completely different person now, literally. And then we get one of the fourth wall breaks and Jen says, ha, which in universe, that could be a reference to Smart Hulk, but IRL, it's. It's a reminder that Mark Ruffalo is not Ed Norton. So is that what they call a double entendron? I like this because the satire and the boundary breaking that John Byrne brought to the Shee Hulk comics that Shee Hulk is most known for.

It wasn't really just about Jen addressing the reader directly. It was also about lightly and lovingly mocking comic book convention, just like the tropes of that type of storytelling, the way that the panels work and characters move from one part of the page to the next, the patterns from page to page and issue to issue. And it feels to me like that's what Gao is doing here, just highlighting some of the absurdities inherent in superhero stories that we all just take for granted and we suspend our disbelief. And of course, you can get that sort of satire in The Boys and Invincible and Harley Quinn and plenty of other places. But here the call is coming from inside the MCU, right? So. again, I don't think you can do that in the boys, but at some point, there's stakes.

Like, you know, they have something that it's going to get very serious. There's going to be a bunch of people that are about to die. Exactly. And Shehawk, not to say that that's not going to be the case, but as of right now, I don't think it's going to get that serious. So, you know, and being the fourth wall breaking is what I got into when I first started reading Deadpool before they went like OD with, you know, the two different voices battling. But again, stuff like that, and the way you so eloquently described it is really like why I loved picking up a comic book and reading it.

Because once you understand the confines and you see how people break it and the conversations we can have as a creator and a reader and how that all works within this, it's fascinating. And I think the show, Gow picks up on a lot of that. And it satisfies the stuff that I don't get in a lot of these other shows that are more about. building the world of higher stakes and intensity as opposed to just coloring in the rest of the picture of the MCU when we're not worrying about a light in the sky or, you know, giant beast that are going to be raining down on the world. Like, you know, we're just trying to figure out if Blonksie's going to be able to get out so he can be with his, the seven brides the B? Yes, his pen pals. Yeah, he's busy, busy written letters in there. But yeah, yeah, I wrote about

that after the most recent Boys season finale, because, you know, that show started out trying to portray, and of course the series that it's based on, just trying to say, here's what this would really be like, right? Like what we've read about in Marvel and DC. Here's what these characters would really look like. Here's how they would behave. Here's how things would work in this world. But the Boys is a blockbuster franchise in its own right now, and the stakes are just as high as they are in any Marvel blockbuster. So now, we're getting sort of the lower stakes version of Marvel where we can poke fun at these things. And it's okay, right?

Because, I mean, I guess the universe is always at stake to some extent in just about any Marvel series. But here, less so than most. So it feels like we can just take our time and make some jokes and it's okay. And of course, you have people like us trying to read into everything and wondering, does this mean that X men are coming? So you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. But I think it's intended. in the spirit of, let's just have some fun here.

So in that spirit, here's a section that I'm going to call a legal brief. So I have a lot of lawyer, friends, and family members, not all of whom hate their jobs and regret going to law school. It seems like some of them too. But I figured one fun way of watching this show each week would be just to examine how She-Hulk attorney-at-law is handling the law. Because on the one hand, it's a superhero sitcom, so we can't hold it to. high standards for realism. On the other hand, it is a legal procedural, so why not take a look

at the legal procedures? So this week, I wanted to focus on whether it is kosher for She-Hulk to represent Blonsky despite his history with her cousin, The Hulk. So let's tee up a little clip here. I'm sorry, but I can't represent him, sir. I have a serious conflict of interest. This man tried to kill my cousin, Bruce. Yeah, that's quite all right. Mr. Blonski is well aware of your familial connection and has signed a conflict waiver. He would like to retain you specifically as his attorney. Okay, Cal, what do you think? Do you think this is all above board that this conflict of interest is not a deal breaker as long as we have this signed waiver? Does this pass the sniff test for you? The way, him already pulling, producing the piece of paper is very sketch,

But I think it's, I mean, in the world of the law, I've always, I've heard, and you can correct me from one, but I've always heard the conversation about what if you know your client has done XYZ, how could you still defend them? But you, this is why you went to school. This is what you're supposed to do based off how the legal system works. And I think she was, I appreciated that she was very quick to be like, I can't do it. But that's her thinking about her family and not thinking. about her job.

If Blonsky's okay with it knowing that at some point she could, if she wanted to, she could go toe to toe with them in whatever form, I think it's okay. I think it's okay. And I think it's really big of Jen to want to go through with it after the fact, because she's not been in this world before. Yeah. So everyone's entitled to their day in court or their day in front of the parole board. but I had my doubts about this arrangement just because of the history here, but here's what I

heard from one of my friends who is a senior counsel at a firm in New York, wishes to remain anonymous for now. Granted, I think he does finance law, not superhuman law, but this should still apply. So as a starting point, attorneys are not allowed to accept representation of a client if they have a conflict that could adversely affect their ability to fairly represent the client. but the typical kind of conflict is where you already represent another client. So say a lawyer gives advice to a given bank on some tax issues or something, and then they get a new client who wants to sue that same bank.

That's probably a conflict, and they generally can't represent the second client, unless both clients sign an informed consent waiver and the lawyer thinks that they can adequately represent both of them without their judgment being a client. affected. But Shee Hulk's situation is not a clear professional conflict of that kind. It's more of a personal conflict, which the rules of professional conduct, which govern this kind of thing, address pretty vaguely. So the rule is you can't represent someone if, quote, there is a significant risk that the lawyer's professional judgment on behalf of a client will be adversely affected by the lawyer's own financial, business, property, or other personal interests. Now,

there's probably not much precedent for a conflict of this exact nature, not just because of the superhuman element, but also because of the part about the client having tried to kill the lawyer's cousin. Right, right, right. This is the personal beef that spilled off in a professional life, yeah. The specific situation probably doesn't arise all that often, but it does seem to fall within the other personal interests kind of conflict. Nevertheless, my lawyer source says, she Hulk.

can still represent abomination if, quote, the client reasonably believes that the lawyer will be able to provide competent and diligent representation to each affected client and each affected client gives informed consent confirmed in writing. So the only types of conflict that can't be waived with informed consent are ones where you literally represent two parties on opposite sides of a transaction or litigation, and that's not what's happening here. So technically, she hulks in the clear. here. In the clear. Because she got the waiver from Blonsky. She's decided that she can represent him without conflict. Of course, there's the question of whether she really can when it comes right down to it. So if this were a trial, the prosecution could object to her representation because

they wouldn't want to try the whole case, win, and then potentially have it overturned on appeal because it's decided that actually She Hulk was conflicted and therefore abomination received ineffective assistance of counsel. So if the prosecution objected, then the judge would want to have a hearing and question Shehulk and might rule that she can't represent abomination. However, in this case, it's not a trial. It's a parole board hearing. So there might not be a judge or a prosecution, and the decision might not be subject to appeal. So basically, I think she could do this. I think it's okay. The perfect storm, yeah. Yeah. The only risk, which is low because this would be a high profile case in the first place is that maybe the Bar Association or the Board of Professional

Ethics or something in the state where she's representing Abomination could investigate and decide to censure or disbar her because they don't think she could have represented Abomination without her judgment being affected. But if she argues that she no longer bore a grudge against Abomination because Bruce forgave him and she herself was persuaded by the Super Soldier Serum defense. then she could probably beat any ethics charge. And we got to remember the world's changing. How many years after, you know, the blip and, you know, the battle, New York, like, you know,

there's been so much that's happened in this universe that, yeah, it's, we're at the point where we need superpowered lawyers to take care of the superpowered beings that are in legal trouble. Right. There's a she-hull comic where she gets a ghost admitted to the stand, someone who has died on the grounds that, like, half the people on earth have died and have returned from death right after the blitz. Wow, that's smart. That's good lawyer in there, good lawyer. Exactly. My friend also bought the idea that this firm would want the publicity from representing abomination, even though he is believed to be a mass murdering monster. So, especially if they're

trying to get their superhuman law division off the ground, like maybe you'd drive off some superhero clients, but representing supervillains, probably more billable hours, more lucrative than representing superheroes, right? Easy TMZ clicks or whatever that equivalent is. And you saw the news is already picked up on her. So, you know, it's not, it's not like she's not a known name already. They, she, oh, yeah, they were cheering. She is a mean. Exactly. That again, reportedly no reputable lawyers will represent Donald Trump these days, despite the publicity. So make of that what you will. Anyway, I'm giving She-Hulk a good grade here, although I will say I'm not sure about the legality of Jen's employer mandating that she has to look like Shee Hulk after offering her the job.

But we'll let that slide for now. It sounds like a think piece maybe coming out about that another five, ten years. Yeah, maybe next week. We'll get to that one. So that takes us to our closing arguments. So a few final questions here. First, would you hire Shee Hulk? Yes.

I think right now, even on the base of just being like a competent adult who is, is eager to be a lawyer. Yeah, come on in. And add in the fact that she, I mean, I don't care about the She-Hulk stuff in employing her at all. But that's a, it's definitely a plus just in terms of getting to understand different walks of life. But yeah, based on resume alone, I think Jen would be at my practice. Yeah, she's clearly a competent lawyer. And if you're starting a superhuman law division, you get the first mover advantage here. You get a superhuman lawyer. There aren't that many of those to go around. We know that daredevil's out there, but you know, you're not picking from that many of them. So you get an advantage here. You attract the best clients. And I think it makes

some sense. Like, you're taking on some risk, obviously, because she's been she Hulk for like days at this point. And Bruce seemed pretty concerned about whether she could actually control her power. So he was last week. Run some risk of a disaster. This week, he's fine about it. He took off to the car. He's good with it. Don't worry about it. Yeah, right. It's about a confidence. I mean, would I feel better if she had been vetted by some other firm first? You know, like, maybe she worked there for a while. She wasn't a good fit, but she didn't, like, destroy the building or anything.

I'd feel a little bit better. Is there something that could have, I mean, they're cameo heavy. Like, you could have gotten a Don Chito to come in and be like, you know, there's some type of certification that she would need to say, okay, she's fit to be out in the world as a superpowered lawyer or what have you. It doesn't seem like it's a hard fix. Yeah. All right. Second question, Jessica Gao said in that same variety interview, every week I was told, can you cut more She-Hulk scenes? Can you change more She-Hulk scenes to Jen? Can she be Jen in more scenes? There were a lot of things that then had to be changed at the last minute to go from She-Hulk to Jen because they told her, yeah, sky's the limit on the CGI budget here. And then it turned out, actually, it wasn't maybe the limit. They wanted a little less CG if pop. possible. And we know about all the issues that have gone on with Marvel and VFX lately. So what is this

week's best example of Jen appearing as Jen instead of She-Hulk potentially to save on CGI costs? Is there a scene where she's Jen instead of She-Hulk where like, I wonder whether that was one of the scenes where they were like, you know what, we can make her Jen instead and save some cashier? I was in, it's very early. In the scene where she's in the bar, she walks in as Jen. Yeah. Her old boss, her now, soon-to-be old boss walks up and he says, hey, can you be Jen? And in my head, I'm like, she wants to be Jen all the time.

So like, even though she's like, you know, hammered or whatever, like, I think she's, it's easier for her to be like, yeah, sure, I'll be Jen. Somebody wants me to be Jen. So I'm justifying that in my mind, I don't know if that, if I'm overworking, you know, my appreciation for the series, but I, I liked seeing that and having that be a way to transform her to her normal form. Yeah. I think she's still sort of on the fence about which form she prefers at this point.

And that's kind of a constant struggle in the comics. Sometimes she decides that she wants to be Jen all the time. Sometimes she wants to be Shehulk all the time. Often she realizes that there's some utility in being both or one or the other at various times. my pick here was when she goes to the prison to visit Blonsky, right? She's trying to go in as Shee Hulk and they tell her, you know, no superpowers here, right? So you have to be Jen while you're visiting Blonsky. Now that makes some sense in theory, but she could turn back into Shee Hulk at any moment, right?

So this is just, I mean, this is eye-wash. This is just for appearances sake that they want her to be Jen. She still has the same superpower and the same potential. to be She-Hulk. So this is just for show, really, and possibly to slash the CGI budget. That was my thought. I mean, because I think even in the comics,

and I remember from like X-Men one specifically, or when you would go to the, what is it, the raft or what, they put those collars on you to depower you, to totally take your powers away. I don't know if she would have contested that being a lawyer and, you know, rights and everything. But again, it could have been an easier fix if there was a bracelet or, you know, something that made sure that her powers were tame when she was in there.

But I guess the thought was, I don't know. It's tough to say, but I can't imagine a world where that would be, in the comics, that wouldn't be a thing at all. She would have been wearing something, some type of ankle bracelet or something. Right, yeah. At the comics, at one point, she has like a gamma charger, which is like when she's having trouble switching. between forms. It's a little bit like what Bruce was wearing last week before his selves were fused back together. And this was something that could kind of control when she was witch. So maybe you could have some kind of thing that's imposed on her along those lines. Maybe they don't know that she can

switch back and forth at well. I don't know. But yeah, that's a little sketchy potentially from a security standpoint. Right. And last question, I don't know if this is kind of a controversial question, but is this series funny? Does it make you laugh? Because this is a sitcom, right? It's supposed to make you laugh. Is it doing its job? Sometimes? The fourth wall breaking, I will crack up. I think there's a lot of wit in hurricanes, especially to the people. And I think there are moments that are genuinely funny, but I think it's not the stuff in the office.

I think the humor that they're trying to build with her friend is a Jill and the puck. Some of that, it's funny, but it's not, I'm not cracking up at that humor. Like I am the way she's breaking the fourth wall and comment. Again, the more, the more

esoteric thoughts about the MCU specifically we were speaking about earlier. That self-referential stuff is great. Yeah, I'm with you. It's, it's Marvel funny. It makes me smile. It's clever. There are moments, I think, when it rises above that. I wouldn't stack it up to the funniest sitcoms out there in terms of like punchlines per minute or anything here. I'm not saying it can't get there and I'm enjoying it regardless. But if we're evaluating it purely on that grounds, it's not top of the scale funniness by sitcom standards yet, I would say. Right. All right. Last section here, our verdict, our closing thoughts on the episode and the series so far. The podcast prosecution has rested. We are ready to render our verdict. So in honor of Blonsky's comeback and his letters of heartfelt remorse to his former victims, can you give me your best haiku to sum up your thoughts on this episode or the series? This is my best. I've not written a haiku since whatever, you know, you're in your case. It's been a while.

We were Googling the syllable rules and counting on our fingers. Counting fingers. All right. This is for episode two, but this is probably going to be for this season in general. This She-Hulk show is good, but also feels aimless. Gotta love that phase four. Sorry. Nice.

All right. Mine is pretty good episode, promising series so far. Now it needs romance. That's good. I like that. I like that. That's what I want from this series and this character. That's a big part of the comics that we haven't seen show up yet. But perhaps we will sometime soon. All right. Let's take a recess. Cal, thank you for being this week's expert witness. Thank you for having me. I hope I did all right on the stand. I think we did okay. And thank you to our producer Carlos Chirobogo, who will make it sound like we did okay, even if we did not. Thanks to him for that and for being our bailout. and producer today. Thanks to Arjuna, Ram Gapal, for his expert podcast management.

Arjuna's a little under the weather this week. That's just what happens when you hit 30. Your body starts breaking down. But we're injecting him with Hulk blood. He'll be back on his feet soon. So stay tuned for Mal and Joe on Friday, Sunday, and Tuesday, Midnight Boys on Wednesday, and more of me next week.

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