The Ringer-Verse - 'She-Hulk’ Episode 3 Reactions

Episode Date: September 1, 2022

Ben Lindbergh and Daniel Chin break down Episode 3 of ‘She-Hulk: Attorney at Law.’ They dive into Megan Thee Stallion’s cameo (11:00), Wong incriminating himself (39:00) as well as references to other MCU shows and movies baked into the episode (33:00). Host: Ben Lindbergh Guest: Daniel Chin Associate Producer: Jonathan Kermah Additional Productional Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I know you can't wait to see Wong. I get it. I just want to make sure that you don't think this is one of those cameo every week type of shows. That's not. Well, except Bruce and Blonsky. And Wong. Just remember whose show this actually is. Hello, ladies and gentlemen of the jury and welcome into the ringerverse.

The ringer's Nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. I am Ben Lindberg, a senior editor at The Ringer, and with me today, making his return to the ringerverse for the first time since the build the best Batman movie draft, it's our main man on Marvel at the Ringer.com. Daniel, nice to have you back. Thanks for having me, Ben. It's good to be back. I'm Daniel's editor, and he owes me an article today, but he's got to

great excuse for filing later because he's tied up talking to me. And Daniel, unlike me, you're in Los Angeles, the scene of Emil Blonsky's shocking release. Are you joining the protests at the person today, or do you think justice was served here? You know, I think that Jen made a great case for Blonsky, but as a New York native, I'm a little conflicted. It's been a while, but that was quite a lot of destruction he caused in New York. I know. Right. We'll see. Old wounds, take some time to heal. That's our turf here. I'm a New York guy too. So any listeners who were with me last week know that this is the Great Lakes Avengers edition of the podcast, or would we be the Forceworks edition? Maybe we'll work our way up to Forceworks status. Either way, working title, we're the heroes who arise when the content comes too fast and furious for your regularly scheduled ring or verse programming to keep pace. And if we do a decent job, we'll gradually grow on you and become cult favorite. So Cal and I broke down Chi-Hulk episode two last week, and now Daniel and I are here to discuss episode three. So in the words of Jen Walters, I just want to make sure that you don't think this is one of those cameo every week type of podcasts.

It's not, well, except me and Cal and Daniel. Just remember whose show this actually is. Speaking of which, a few programming notes, Nalor Rubin and Joanna Robinson will be back on Friday to break down the two-part premiere of the last. Lord of the Rings of Power. Then you can catch Mal and Joe on Talk the Thrones on Sunday, giving their instant reactions to episode three of House of the Dragon and trying to help Chris Ryan keep the characters straight. House of R will do their hot D deep dive next Tuesday, followed by more Midnight Boys on Wednesday. And then if my memory isn't erased and I'm not sent to the

mirror shadowed dimension, I'll be back to take you through She-Hulk episode four. But episode three comes before four. So let's do a moderately deep dive into the people versus Emil Blonski, directed by Kat Koiro and written by creator and showrunner Jessica Gal. This is our first week without the He Hulk, and we are fully into the legal procedural format. So this series is really coming into its own. And like last week, we'll follow a trial style format, which means we'll start with some opening statements and give you our big picture thoughts on the So, Daniel, let's frame our opening statements around some recent statements made by Jessica Gow. So in an interview with Collider, she's been busy, she's been talking to a lot of people doing a lot of press.

She talked about the lower stakes sitcom vibe of the show and the opportunity it provides to see old characters in new lights. So she said, the most fun aspect of making the show is being able to pull these characters where you only see them in dramatic moments and in these very serious, intense situations. everyone can't be at a 10 at all times in this heightened state of saving the universe. There are times when they have to just be chill and living regular life. And so those are the moments we're drawing from. I call it a comedy vacation. They'll go back and be serious and save the world in the movies. But on our show, they get to just play around in our tone and have fun with it.

So we know that Dennis Bukowski, he's a 10 at all times, or in L.A. 11, according to him. But how much are you enjoying seeing Blonsky slash abomination, not taking on the Hulk, not trashing Harlem, but getting in touch with his spiritual side? Or Wong, not battling existential multiversal threats, but figuring out how to work within the justice system. Is this anticlimactic or is this a welcome respite? I think it's definitely more of the latter for me being a respite because, I mean, it's gotten to the point where we've seen some. There's all this talk about superhero fatigue. And especially in phase four, like, you know, the content has just been nonstop. And even in some of the TV shows, you're seeing, like, you know, universe saving stakes, like, at all times.

And at some point, when the universe is saved every single time, there becomes no stakes. So the fact that we're actually entering a show where there is low stakes at all times and you get a, you know, see Wong in this different light, like I think it's a lot of fun. And I think this episode was the first time you really get to see what this kind of show is capable of. Yeah, even with Moody Night, which we thought maybe might be a bit lower stakes or at least was a little more disconnected from the MCU. Still, like, the world is ending, right? So there are not enough half-hour sitcoms in my life right now, or for that matter, episodic series in general. It's why I've enjoyed Star Trek Lower Decks and Strange New World so much.

Jomey's not the only lower decks head in the Ringerverse. when we watch so much franchise IP these days, we just have to worry about timelines and lore and continuity. And I love a lot of that stuff. And I know you do too, but it's nice to go with the flow, I think, sometimes. And, you know, also, I think that in this case, I like the idea that this series might itself be low stakes, but could still be pretty important in terms of setting up some future projects,

whether it's World War Hulk or Thunderbolts or both. It's sort of a stealthy way to introduce. do some significant developments while we're all laughing along at the lawyer show. So maybe we think it's low stakes, but it's somewhat deceptive. And we'll look back and we'll say, actually, she Hulk laid the groundwork for all these things that came after. Yeah, totally. I think the balance is going to be the toughest thing to strike with it being, you know,

for the moment, like so low stakes that it seems like, you know, where is this actually going as a series? So for them to be able to pull it back and like make something happen with like Titania. And we'll get into all of that later. But actually being able to have enough stakes to keep you engaged and coming back every week, I think is going to be the challenge. Okay. Second opening statement from Gao, this one was to the Hollywood Reporter. As we're going through post and looking at the episode, it really felt like there were a lot of cameos.

But this was always a cameo-heavy show by nature, just because the half-hour legal comedy format allowed us to put in a lot of people for a case of the week or a singular lawsuit that gets resolved in one episode. So there was always the danger of feeling like it's a cameo the week show, and in the grand tradition of She-Hulk, when she notices something, she'll point it out to the audience. So my question to you is, would you define this as a danger? Do you see the series of cameos as a distraction from She-Hulk herself? Or are you into this constellation of characters just revolving around her? I think that's another tricky thing, like, you know, especially just after talking about the nature of it being a question of stakes in the series.

I think it's a balance of making sure that they don't distract from Sheehawk as a character. But just as Gow was saying in that quote, that is very much in the tradition of Sheehawk, where they're pulling in all these different types of characters. And often to very, very funny effects, especially when the focus is on very obscure villains and ridiculous villains at that. with just the tone of the series, like the comic book series and the TV series, I think it could

work really well. Like having Wong in this, I thought was like really funny. Like I like them bringing back Emil Blonsky. It's going to be interesting to see how they balance it moving forward, though. Yeah. Just because the cameos are acknowledged in this winking way doesn't mean it's not an issue, but it doesn't bother me or it hasn't so far. And as I said last week, and you're alluding to there too. I mean, the cameos and the crossovers are very consistent with her comics history, consistent with her occupation. I thought Van made a good argument this week that surrounding a rookie call-up in the MCU with some heavy hitters is a good way to take the pressure off and help her thrive. So we'll see whether they take the training wheels off or it ends up becoming a crutch by the end

of the season. But so far, so good on my end. So third and final opening statement here, again from Gal from a third interview, this time from Nerdist, about maybe the biggest cameo this week, not a figure from the Marvel universe, at least until now, but Megan the Stallion, quote, we didn't know who it would be, we just knew that we needed a famous, successful, and beautiful female celebrity.

It could have been a musician, it could have been an actor, could have been a model. Then, depending on who it was, we would probably have to tailor the story a little bit. We went through so many different possibilities and how it would change the story. So she went on to say that Jamil Jamil, who was not in this week's episode, she still made an impact in that she suggested Megan the Stallion as the guest. And Gao continued, if you can have Megan the Stallion, why would you even consider anybody else?

We are all such huge fans, but especially Tatiana. She is probably the world's number one Megan fan. I have to imagine nobody would have ever thought that we would see Megan the Stallion in the MCU. And that was the same for us. We dared not to dream it. evidently the dancing stinger was added just so Tatiana Asani could be in a scene with Megan the Stallion. So thoughts on this somewhat surprising but exciting cameo? I was definitely a little nervous for it when I saw like, you know, there was some rumors about

her appearance at some point in the show like earlier in the week. I didn't realize that was going to be this episode. I thought it was so funny. And I think it worked because it was like, you know, the fact that it was somebody shapeshifting as her or wasn't. It wasn't as if, like, Megan Estalian was actually, like, you know, playing the role of somebody else. She was just playing herself. Yeah. And essentially being, like, you know, a catfishing involving an alien. So I thought it worked pretty well.

And, like, the stinger found very funny. So I was pleasantly surprised by it. Yeah. And it's not new to have pop culture crossovers into Marvel or the MCU necessarily. Even in She-Hulk's history and sensational She-Hulk, there's lots of references to pop culture of the times. you know, Dallas and Flintstones and Jetsons and Robocop and aliens. And in this show, you get Porgs and Pixar because it's Disney, but you also get Megan Stalian. And it's sort of novel for an MCU cameo.

Like we've seen a lot of newscasters and TV personalities appear in Marvel movies, but not a ton of in the flesh celebrity cameos. I guess you've got Ghostface and Iron Man, at least in a deleted scene. And you have Elon Musk and Larry Ellison and Iron Man, too. You've got Hasselhoff and Guardians of the Galaxy, too. So it's sort of opening up a new frontier, potentially, for celebrity cameos in the MCU. And maybe for Megan the Stey and herself, because she said that she wants to emulate some crossover celebrities like Queen Latifah and Ice Cube, who've gone from music to acting. And she said, I don't feel like I'm only going to be an actress.

I feel like I'm also going to be a director and I'm also going to be a producer. So watch out, Kevin Feige, Megan the Stallion could be coming for your job. And, you know, our colleague at the ringer, Andrew Greda Dara, he hasn't seen Sheeulk yet. But this morning, he sent me an image from the Stinger of just Megan the Stallion and Sheeulk twerking. And his message was just, what is this show? Not in a judgmental way. Just like, what am I looking at here? What is happening in this series?

And I love that it can provoke that reaction, not just for people who, haven't seen it yet, but even for people who have like us, because we don't necessarily know what it will be from one week to the next. It's been at least two different shows so far, and it seems like there might be further evolution ahead. Yeah, I mean, it was just so over-the-top ridiculous that I thought it worked in this instance. When I saw the report initially, I was like worried that it was going to be something like Obi-Wan with, like, Flea or like, you know, Ed Shearron and Game of Thrones. Like that immediately, like, triggered me in that sense. But yeah, I I thought this works.

Yes. It's done in a respectful way, I guess we could say. So that takes us up to the evidence stage, just a little light recap, because if you're listening to this, you presumably saw the same episode we did. So we won't go beat by beat, but let's just hit a few high points here, provide some details as we go. So we started with Jen visiting the prison to talk to Blonski about his prison escape. Blonski tells her that Wong made him do it, which means that Jen has to track down Wong

in the hope that he can exonerate Blonsky. So now, Nikki's got to track down Wang on bootleg LinkedIn and send him some in-mail. Hey, can you come in and testify for us? And it turns out Wang has a pretty interesting resume here. We're learning a lot about Wang. Target Sales Associate for nine years, followed by 11 years as a librarian, which we knew. And then, of course, Sorcerer Supreme. So pretty typical career path.

I guess we just, we need a Wang prequel. that's solely about his sales associate days. Like, I want to know more about this stint that preceded the mystical arts. Oh, I agree. Yeah. I definitely agree. We've all been overlooked at work at one time or another, so I guess this is sort of aspirational that you can climb the ladder like this.

I mean, you're just going about your business, clocking in, clocking out, going nowhere, and then one day, Caesilius kills someone, and you're right there and you're perfect for the job. And then Thanos snapped. the previous Sorcer Supreme Out of Existence, and you're just ready to step right up, right place, right time. So you never know when your break's going to come.

And it's nice that Wang has kept his resume updated, just in case he has to return to retail at some point. So then we get a little montage of the men's rights activists and the in cells up in arms here about the debut of another female superhero. So we got some meta-commentary from the creators of the show, perhaps anticipating the usual attacks from the most misogynistic corners of the internet. Though there is one guy who says, I don't know about y'all, but I'd smash, which is like not the traditional type of Hulk smash, presumably.

Anyway, shoot your shot. Man, maybe you'll match with her when she cuts on the apps. Then we get some set up for this episode's subplot, which is about Jen's old friend Dennis Spokowski, just a great guy, a real ally, almost a feminist old. Dennis, but he's been defrauded by a light elf, Runa, who is posing as Megan the Stalian, who among us has not been burned by an ex who turned out to be a different person than we thought. Daniel, what do we need to know about light elves other than maybe don't date them? So, I mean, this is actually, like, I think the first time we've seen the light elves in the

MCU. We've seen, like, the Dark Elves and Thor of the Dark World. Yeah. You know, we don't talk about that movie very much, but we did see the dark elves there. But, I mean, they date back to the comic, like comics since the 80s, and they most often appear in, like, Loki or Thor-related comics. And they're mostly, like, peaceful. Like, you know, so it's interesting to see, like, a kind of nefarious light elf in this sense. But, yeah, I mean, that's all you're, like, you know, they're Loki and Thor world.

you know, native to All Fine, which is one of like the nine realms that Odin and, you know, Thor always talked about in the Thor movies. So in this same scene, we get the first appearance of Mallory Book, played by the incredible Renee Lee Goldsbury from Hamilton and Girls Five Eva and the Good Wife, etc. This is a character from the Dan Slot Shehulk Run, who's a professional rival of Jens, known as the face that never lost a case. And in the current Rainbow Rowell Shehawk book,

She's actually Jen's boss. So I'm sure she'll be back in the show, but she's barely in this episode. She just checks out as soon as she clocks through Dennis is. So as with Tatania, we're getting a soft launch of a few characters who may play bigger parts down the road. So stay tuned. Pug ends up taking on Bukowski's case because no one else wants to. Wong sling rings into the office meets with Jen, wants to help Blonski. We get some hijinks with the light elf impersonating Bikowski, trying to ruin it.

his reputation. Then we see Jen returned to the prison where the parole hearing that takes up most of the episode takes place. So let me ask you about the history of high security prisons in the Marvel universe because Shield has a few, right? There's the raft. There's the vault. There's the cube. There's the big house, which is actually a very little house where Shield puts away criminals who've been shrunk down by bim particles, which comes from the Dan Slot, Shehawk comic also. This is an unnamed so far Supermax prison overseen by the Department of Damage Control. How to high security prisons in the Marvel universe stack up to those in other universes? Like, if you're a villain, do you want to be locked up by Shield or the DODC? Or would you rather

be in Arkham Asylum or Asgabin or the Fortress Inquisitorious from Obi-Wan? Like, where's the easiest to stage the prison break in these universes? It's a great question. I think oftentimes they're all going to be broken out of inevitably. They're like Arkham Asylum, broken out of all the time. And that's really the case for a lot of these Shield super prisons as well. The oldest one that appears in the comics is the vault. And it actually closes at some point in the comics because there are just so many riots and escapes

that they're just like, all right, I guess there's no point to this. Yeah. The raft is the only one that I guess we've seen so far in the MCU. You know, you see it in Captain America's Civil War when all the heroes in the wrong side of the superhero registration act or I guess it's the Sycobia Accords in the MCU. They're put there in the underwater prison that's built. Then there's the cube, which was designed for aliens

who committed crimes on Earth. but we haven't seen that yet in the MCU. And I think the big house is probably the best one. I think it's the most clever. Yeah. With it being, you know, tiny versions of the villains. And it's, you know, they appear in She-Hull Comics as well. So it would be fun to see that.

But, you know, with the CGI budget being what it is, I seriously doubt that we're going to see a version of the big house and this. But I don't know. Really all of these you're going to break out of, it seems like, to me. Right. It's like the Derek Zoolander Center for kids who can't read good and want to learn to do other stuff good too. It's like just a tiny little prison for tiny little prisoners. But I guess the point of having supervillains is that they get free to fight again.

Right. So you don't want your supervillains imprisoned too securely. You want sort of a steady rate of return to society so that they can battle again. So it's not really a bug. It's more of a feature. And to be fair, I guess it's a steady rate of. probably pretty tough to keep supervillains in prisons, what with the superpowers and the villainy and everything. So it's understandable, I guess. It's just, it's a tough assignment, right?

To keep Blonsky in or the abomination if he doesn't want to be in there. So you have to assume that Blonsky could get out of this place if he wanted to, because as we learn, he can become abomination at will. But he wants to serve his time. He's a model prisoner. He's a great influence on the other inmates. He's found seven soulmates through the prison pen pal program, which, by the way, I love that some people thought the seven soulmates reference last week was a thunderbolts tease. I'm not saying this series isn't setting up thunderbolts, but the seven soulmates we see here do not include U.S. agent or Yelena Bilova or Baran Zemo seemingly. This just appears to be a red herring. This is like a little pollicule of admirers who have just fallen

for Blonsky and judging by their expressions when he transforms, they're hoping he'll be Blonsky in the streets and abomination in the sheets. And look, if very large lizard-like radiation monsters are your kink, who am I to judge? Because as Gao said, this show is not only sex positive, but horny forward. So let's not be prudes here. These are consenting adults and there's someone out there for everyone. Were you taken in by the seven soulmates line? Were you, reading into that as many people were last week? I feel like the way that I am built and the way that I have to work as a writer here at the ringer, I was like, oh, yeah, it's got to be like a Thunderbolts.

I think it's my favorite kind of thing when, like, you have all this speculation and all this theorizing for them just to be like, nah, this is definitely not. Exactly, because they know. Very definitively not that. Yeah, they've conditioned us to do this. They know we're going to do it. We're going to read into everything too much. So they just toss a little line out there, just send us in the wrong direction every now and then.

I will say, I guess this could be a case of something called hybristophilia, which the American Psychological Association defines as sexual interest in an attraction to those who commit crimes. So sometimes you hear about serial killers who get groupies and love letters and end up getting married behind bars. So that's what's happening here. And Blonsky is truly a law-abiding citizen now. The attraction may fade once he's released, but I'm rooting for them, though. It looks like just one big happy family, so enjoy your freedom, folks. So Jen has an uphill battle here.

The head of the parole board says that in light of the escape footage, I think we all know how this is going to go. Sounds like he's made up his own mind. He's biased before this proceeding even starts. But it doesn't go that way because the character witnesses make Blonsky sound like a changed man. Wong clears him for the prison escape. after arriving late despite his sling ring and split-second commute. And Jen has an epiphany when, as she notes, in one of her fourth wall-breaking moments,

the A and B plots come together, and she testifies on Bikowski's behalf, explaining that he is delusional enough to think that Megan the stallion would date him, which he then immediately demonstrates by wondering whether the real one would date him. So sadly, Bukowski wins. I think we were all probably rooting for Runa in this case. Were you in Runa's corner, despite her mischievous ways? I thought Runa was so funny. I thought I was also rooting for her, even though she did impersonate a judge.

Yeah. Which, you know, that's not going to help your case at all. No. Dennis is just such like a deplorable character, almost like cartoonishly so. Yeah. That, you know, of course, I feel like everybody's rooting against him. Right. Yeah.

Pug alluded to that. He's like, this is getting a little broad. the comedy at one point. But yeah, we're all rooting against status. But that will get you in contempt of court pretty quick, I would think, impersonating the judge and freeing yourself. So she gets a light sentence, but Bikowsky says that she should have her powers removed or he wishes that she would, which gives Jen the idea to propose that as a condition of Blonsky's release, we assume. So he has to wear an inhibitor that prevents him from turning into the abomination. So tell me about inhibitors. What's the history?

here. Should we trust this technology to protect us if Blonski visits New York again? Yeah. So the inhibitors were, I feel like often, most often associated with the X-Men, and they first appeared in the popular like days of future past 80s, X-Men storyline where like in the future where all the mutants are imprisoned, they're wearing inhibitor collars. And they work very effectively there. So, you know, this is a nice. other instance of there being another X-Men reference to. But I think it could still come back in this series as well, like with that whole fourth wall breaking aside that Shehawk has

towards the end of the episode where Dennis is giving her the idea of, you know, using something to remove her powers. So it could come back in that way. And, you know, we'll see if Blonski actually stays, you know, with his seven soulmates and in human form.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I hope they're not too disappointed that he can't be abomination for them. It seems like that's what they wanted. But Blonsky gets to go free to open the meditation retreat financed by the soulmates. So win for him, big win for Jen. And just as he helped the prison guard Carl deal with his failing marriage, he helps Jen deal with her new alter ego. He tells her, they're going to write a story about you one way or the other, you know, better to be part of it, really.

and he's been on the other side of this, so he certainly knows. She decides to go on the news for what turns out to be more of a demeaning series of softball questions than a substantive interview about her brilliant legal strategy. So finally, as she's heading home, she's jumped by four attackers. Now, before we get into who they are, let's just talk about the significance of this scene, because this is a pretty pivotal moment in the series. in this episode, Jen sets Blonsky free by getting him to put Abomination behind him, at least for now. He can't transform anymore.

And when she goes on TV, she makes a point of saying that her client is Blonsky, not abomination. But in that same TV appearance, she herself has to go by She-Hulk, even though she had just told Nikki, I cannot wait for this to be over. So I can go back to being a normal anonymous lawyer who also happens to be a Hulk. and Nikki breaks the news to her not happening, the genie is out of the bottle, there's no going back. But Daniel, even more so than when she was throwing boulders with Bruce back in the premiere.

I think this mugging moment is when she really embraces her big green self. Yeah, totally. I mean, the first time that she, I guess, uses She-Hulk is that, you know, very brief fight scene at the end of the premiere against Titania. but this feels like the first one where, you know, she looks in the reflection, the car reflection, the window at herself, like to close the episode. And now after she's been avoiding being She-Hulk and this part of her identity, she's starting to see the use of it.

You know, like it's, I think it's going to be an interesting thing that the series will cover in how she grapples with this side of her identity now. because so far we've seen her really favoring being Jen. But you talked about this last week with Kyle, too. There's a lot of times in the comics where she's almost always Shehulk. Right. So we'll see how that plays out. But yeah. Right, because she's been forced to be Shehulk.

She had no choice in the matter. She takes this new job and she finds out that she has to be Shehulk at work all the time if she wants to stay there. Here, she's actually making the proactive, personal decision to be Shehulk. And this is a common scary scenario, right? You're a woman who's alone at night. You're walking down a dark alley carrying your keys, suddenly you're attacked. That's terrifying for anyone.

And at first, Jen screams and panics, and then she realizes, oh, wait, I can take control of this situation. When I'm Jen, I'm vulnerable. But when I'm She-Hulk, I have nothing to fear. Now the table's turn, she goes from screaming to making the men scream. So she fights them off. And as you said, last shot of the episode, she's staring at her reflection. And she's not flintzing or wincing or looking away. She's not changing back to Jen.

She's starting to like what she sees when she sees Shee Hulk. And this is one of the major recurring themes of almost every Shehulk comic, just how Jen learns to live with and love herself as this new person she is. You can go back to the very first issue of Savage She-Holk. number one from 1979, when she has this realization from now on, whatever Jennifer Walters can't handle, the Shee Hulk will do. Or in the second issue, she says, I decided then and there to devote my strength as the Shee Hulk to writing the wrongs that were beyond my abilities as Jen Walters attorney. Or in sensational Shehawk issue 18, I'm Shehulk almost all the time because I want to be because it's exciting. Or lastly, more recently, issue number one of the Charles Sol run, where the lesson is that no one is only one thing.

So sometimes she's mostly Jen, sometimes she's mostly She-Hulk, but she usually realizes that it's best to be a blend of both because there are things she can do as one that she can't do as the other. And often there are more things she can do as She-Hulk. So she's had this name and identity imposed on her by men. It's this derivative, feminized version of a male superhero's name. she's reclaiming it now. So this is pretty exciting, pretty momentous. So let's get to the cross-examination, the crossovers and references in this episode from elsewhere in the MCU that we haven't covered already. So we've talked about some of them, but we have a few others. So we have Wong's reference to No Way Home, right? When he says, I know what you're thinking, Ms. Walters, and I'm not erasing everyone's

memories. Not again. He's learned his lesson, perhaps belatedly here. Although I guess he warned strange not do it, really. That was more of a Dr. Strange issue, I think. We also have a reporter outside the prison who's asking Jen any truth to the rumors who got your powers from a mafia hit gone wrong, which is a reference to her original origin story by Stan Lee. We have the light elf, Runa, asserting that her Asgardian diplomatic immunity should apply in Los Angeles on the grounds that Asgard is not a place. It is a people, a sentiment that we have heard Odin and Heimdahl Express. And we also briefly see a TV talking head named Gideon Wilson, the former prosecutor who put Blonsky

away, which could be a deep cut comics connection. Can you explain the history of Gideon Wilson if, in fact, this is the same character? Yeah, it was something that I actually missed the first time I watched it. Me too. But yeah, and it's like in the comics, he is Sam Wilson's older brother. and he's a former minister who eventually becomes a villain after his son dies and he blames Hulk for it, even though it's totally unrelated. But the fact that he was not, he had absolutely no part in the Falcon and the Winter Soldier,

makes me think that, you know, it's probably unlikely that he's going to be San Wilson's brother because there's such an emphasis on the Wilson family in that show. Yeah. So it could be that he's like still related to him some. or he just has the name Wilson, the MCU as well. But I think it has to be a reference, at least, to the comic book character. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start.

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behind the counter. Visit your local deli today. Discover the craftsmanship behind every bite, Boershead, committed to craft since 1905. So let's talk about the big crossover here. Those pretty low-rent thugs that jump Jen at the end are actually Thunderball, Wrecker, and the rest of the wrecking crew. It seems like a team of supervillains whose comic history goes back almost 50 years. So give us the lowdown on the wrecking crew, because it doesn't look like. an intimidating group in this incarnation, but I guess they have been at times. Yeah, it's funny because the wrecking crew

is such an old comic book group. Like, they've been around as a group since the mid-70s, and yet they still feel like such an obscure group that works so well in like a She-Hulk series. And I like how, so like in the comics, the wrecker existed before the wrecking crew. He dates back to like the late 60s.

and long story short, he basically steals magical power that was going to be given to Loki, and he fights against Thor, his power is transferred into his crowbar, and in a very ridiculous series of events, after he breaks out of Rikers Island with a few other inmates during an electrical storm, the four of them hold his crowbar together and disseminates his power essentially across the four of them. So now there's the wrecker, thunderball, bulldozer, and pile driver. And they're the wrecking crew, and they appear in all sorts of other comic book titles. But it's interesting that they've completely, and I think it's smart too, that they've,

you decided not to do any of that and that they're all just having stolen, what was it, from an Asgardian construction worker. They stole his gear, which is a lot more plausible, right? Yeah, right. This is like the supervillain crew that you hire on Task Rabbit or something. It's like these guys are not super professional seemingly here. Although in the comics, like, as you said, the wreck and crew, they pop up all over the place. They're in Secret Wars, right?

So I don't know if these guys will end up in the new Secret Wars. They don't really look Secret Wars caliber. Also, weirdly, I guess, there's sort of a... a whitewashing of Thunderball that is happening here if this is the same Thunderball, right? Because he's black, the comics character. He's sometimes called the black Bruce Banner, which seems semi-racist. Maybe Bruce Banner is the white Dr. Elliott Franklin Thunderball. But he's also a smart, genius level guy, which, again, didn't really come off here.

But whoever and whatever they are, we hear something interesting at the end of, the scene. So Thunderball tries to get a blood sample, but his needle could not pierce Shehulk's skin, which leads another one of the thugs probably wreck her to say, boss is going to be mad. So to invoke another sitcom, who is the boss? We seem to have several possibilities here, right? We've got Titania, though she's maybe less of a criminal mastermind than someone who just periodically attacks Shehulk herself. We know a daredevil cameo is coming, but Kingpin may be more of a New York guy, then a West Coast guy, Valentina, the leader? Like, who are some of the candidates here?

Who's your leading contender to be the boss? Assuming that this is not just another misdirect, like the seven soulmates? It totally could be a misdirect, but I think the leading candidate in my mind would be Titania, if only because we know that she's going to come back in the series at some point based on interviews with Gao and just knowing that she plays a larger role in this series, just being like She-Hulk's probably biggest antagonist. And the first time that Titania does fight She-Hulk in the comics was in that Secret War series that you just mentioned the original one.

And like She-Hulk fights against the wrecking crew and then fights Titanic immediately after. It's like not like she was the boss of them at that point, but I think the connection there is there enough that I could just see that being the way that they tie in Titania. like we still don't really know what her part, you know, even after three episodes, we don't really know what her part of it will be. And for some reason, she was trying to take out that jury. That's about all we know about Titania so far. I think that you guys talked about it on the pod last week, too. I think that probably is a product of them switching around the episode order, making a real mess of things.

But I think that's going to have to come around in some way. And I think Titania is going to end up being, you know, later in the series, the primary antagonist here as well. So I can see that being the most plausible connection between her and the wrecking crew. Yeah. I know some people like the leader as a candidate, Samuel Sterns here, just another tie back to the Incredible Hulk, the 2008 movie. And we see at the end of that movie that he gets some drips of Hulk blood on his head

and his head is bulging out in various directions. But we know he had some sort of antidote on hand too. So maybe he comes back into it. We just have the full reunion of an almost 15-year-olds now, not so successful MCU movie. We'll see. There are other obscure possibilities. I was thinking of, like, the headmen who show up in the first few episodes of John Burns' sensational She-Hulk. And it's like this weird supervillain team of people who have something wrong with their heads.

They're just like trying to capture She-Hulk's body so that they could stick one of their heads on there. And they hire Mysterio to capture her. So it could be some obscure reference like that, or it could be one of these candidates that we've listed, or maybe they're just throwing us for a loop again. So let's do a quick little legal brief here. So we started this last week. I have a bunch of lawyer, friends, and family members who are helping me examine some of the finer points of the legal procedural aspects of this series. So let's play a quick clip. And as for Mr. Wong, just one.

The Sorceroy Supreme, Master of the Mystic. rights, leader and former librarian of commentage. Yeah. You realize that you've just admitted to facilitating a prisoner escape, which is a crime. I must depart. All right. So the question is, how much trouble is Wang in here after his testimony at the hearing, which gets Blonsky out of trouble, but gets him into trouble?

So I was curious about this. Can you incriminate yourself while you're testifying on someone else's behalf? because Wong is not on trial here. I guess technically it's a hearing. No one is on trial. But he's just here to help out Jan and to help out Blonski. And in the process, he confesses to a crime himself. From what I heard, based on consultations with a couple of lawyer friends of mine, he's in some trouble here. Unless he struck some kind of immunity deal in exchange for his testimony, which clearly he did not, then he could be prosecuted. He can be arrested and indicted for his. his role in spiriting Blonsky out of the prison, the actual coercion defense strategy that Jen chooses is a sound one. You have to prove that you had a reasonable fear of imminent reprisal if you don't commit the crime. So they have to say, if you're saying, well, so-and-so made me do it, then you have to actually prove that so-and-so made you do it. And it certainly helps to have someone confess that they did make you do it, as Wong is saying here. But the judge,

the panel still has to find that credible. You have to persuade them that a prisoner didn't want to escape. You would think that they would be a willing participant in the prison break. And you have to persuade them that Blonsky could have been compelled by Wong to leave. And of course, he's abomination. You'd think he could put up a fight if he wanted to. But he did openly confess to what is a crime here. And in lawyer language, legalese, admissions against interest are.

an exception to the hearsay rule and can be used against you in any subsequent court proceedings, civil or criminal, if they are relevant to the case, regardless of where you made them. And if the other side objects to you using somebody's own statement against them, a trial that involves that somebody is a defendant, the offering lawyer just says, Judge, it is an admission. And that's that. So it probably helps convince them here that Blonsky did decide to return to his cell willingly, which makes it look like maybe he was, he was coerced and he did not willingly decide to leave. But the question in my mind was, should Jen have warned Wong that, hey, you're not taking the fifth year. You're potentially

incriminating yourself because I wouldn't say Wong has a great grasp of the workings of the justice system with you. Like, you know, he thinks it's totally kosher to just send someone to a different dimension or use some different arcane magical book. Like, I don't know that he understands due process or his rights here or what he is getting himself into by saying this. Like, did you get a sense that he understood that he was potentially putting himself in harm's way by helping free Blonsky? Or was that sort of a surprise to him that's like, uh-oh, we just traded places here

essentially? I think it was definitely a surprise to him. I mean, just the fact that the first. time you see him in the office, his mind goes to, all right, well, you know, could erase everybody's mind or we could send them to the mirror, shadow dimensions. Right. It's, I mean, just speaking of, you know, the cross-examination section, too, like, I thought it was so fun seeing Wong in this capacity and, like, being able to have this more comedic role. And it's very funny, just seeing him try to work within, like, the legal system here, like, in, in the U.S. because he clearly had no idea.

And then when, you know, it's like he's realized now he's in trouble. He's like, all right, I'm out. And he just opens up a portal and he's gone. It's that easy. Yeah. So it's possible that Jen warned him off screen, but we certainly didn't see it and didn't get any indication that he knew what he was getting himself into. The thing is, though, I heard from one of my lawyer friends in general, lawyers do not

have the duty to non-clients to warn them of these things. They're not obligated necessarily to say, hey, you're going to get yourself in trouble here, they're not allowed to lie to them or mislead them, but merely refraining from advising a non-client that there is a downside to certain behaviors, like testifying that you got this guy out of prison. That's not typically unethical, which might sound strange or bad, and maybe this is why people don't like lawyers, but duties to clients are paramount and extensive, and you can't be going around giving great legal advice to everyone. So I think Jen is probably in the clear here. And look, maybe Wong should be held

accountable. He did sort of stage this prison break. He's done some other questionable things. But if he is in trouble and if they can catch him and if he's not just sling ringing out of reach constantly, maybe Jen has landed herself a second client. So she can just go straight from representing Blonsky to representing Wong. Who knows? But it'll be tough to catch. All right. That's a takes us to our closing arguments. Just a few final quick debates here. So last week, I mentioned Jessica Gao's statement about the CGI. She said every week I was told by the higher ups at Marvel, can you cut more Shee Hulk scenes? Can you change more Shee Hulk scenes to Jen? Can she be Jen in more scenes? There were then a lot of things that had to be changed at the last

minute to go from Shee Hulk to Jen. So last week, Cal and I debated the best example of Jen being Jen instead of She-Hulk to save un-CG-I costs. And I picked her having to be in human form when she's inside the prison. So this week, we don't get much She-Hulk at all because she's in prison for most of the episode. So save the budget for the big abomination scene, I suppose. How are you feeling about the CGI so far, which was such a topic of controversy, at least when the first trailer was released? Yeah.

Yeah, it's such an unavoidable conversation, I think, with this show especially. And it's tough because I feel like the CGI is a little bit distracting at times. And at least for me, I think, like, Tatiana Mislani is so good as both Jennifer Walters and Shehawk, that I want to see her in her human form, like, unobstructed by CGI as often as possible. Because there are just times where I feel like she doesn't even look like Tatiana Mislani. And it's, I don't want to like knock the VFX artist because there's been so much reported about how impossible of a job it is, seems to be working for Marvel. And just like the real crunch of it all. And especially just the reports that were coming out and just the conversations around how much Marvel will shake things up really close to the final products coming.

out and you can see that coming with this. If they've had a few extra weeks to work on the premiere episode that is almost all CGI with it Holt and She Holt, it probably would have looked a little bit different than the way it did. And it's hard not to keep thinking about it when there's so much CGI being infused in the series. But it's tough, you know, it's the case with all of these Marvel shows, I feel like, and even with the Marvel movies. And I hope that the reception around it, which at least the CGI nature of it, sparks some change for Marvel Studios to really make better working conditions for the BFX artists moving forward. It's distracting at times or I'll raise an eyebrow here or there.

I wouldn't say it's interfering with my enjoyment of the series in any significant way. It's a good series. It's not getting in the way of that. Occasionally I'll catch myself thinking that She-Hulks walk looks. unnatural or something. But then I'm like, how do I know what a six foot seven, 650 pound gamma-radiated woman with green skin would look like? Like, maybe that shouldn't look natural. So maybe I just take it on faith. You know, we're already suspending plenty of disbelief as it is. So if you want to tell me this is what Shehulk looks like, then fine, I'll go with you on that. She's looked all kinds of

different ways in various comics runs. But I agree with you. It's nice that at least like some semblance of the acting and the expression work is preserved there. I don't want to do away with her new empowered realization that she maybe wants to be She Hulk, but there is maybe a slight loss of nuance there when she's in that form. All right, you're on the parole board. We talked a little bit about how abomination and what he did in New York hits close to home for you, but if you can put that possible bias aside, are you agreeing to release Blonsky based on the testimony you heard here. I think I would agree.

I think Jen made a great case for him. And as dramatic of a move that was by Blonsky to turn into the abomination, it was very convincing for him to just, you know, set aside his crocs for a second, prepare the towel for him when he turned back into a human afterwards. But showing that he had control of it the entire time,

it's interesting, too, that he's just able to do that now, especially just in light of Hulk having to create this whole contraption and just going through this year's long process of trying to grapple with being the Hulk and Bruce Banner at the same time. And Blonsky has been able to perfect that in prison, apparently. Yeah, I hope he's not putting on a show. I hope this is totally sincere and lasting.

I went back and watched The Incredible Hulk this week, which holds up pretty well, RIP William Hurt. And, you know, granted, he didn't know the whole story in that movie, but he wants that sauce. He's like, give me more. You know, give me some super soldier serum, then give me more super soldier serum, then give me some Hulk blood on top of that just as a chaser for the chemical cocktail that I'm ingesting here.

I guess it's the question of at what point was his judgment compromised by the super soldier serum so that he was not in his right mind, right? I guess we could say. And initially when he's going after Hulk, he just thinks this is a monster. He doesn't know the whole story here. So knowing what we know, I guess it's extenuating circumstances and I'm okay with him turning over a new leaf. I don't know if we need to let him go after serving the minimum sentence. Like this is his first parole hearing.

Let's not jump the gun. I just better be damn sure that the inhibitor works. I hope that that thing doesn't fail and that he doesn't go back to his old ways. All right. Last question. Which MCU villain would you most like to see Jen represent? We saw her win this case take on an unsympathetic client and persuade the parole board. Who else do you think she could work this legal magic with?

So I have two answers for you here. The one that I would most like to see and just very short, I would love to see Wanda being put on trial. She might be dead right now. We didn't see a body, so she's definitely alive. Yes. But not necessarily even for everything she did in the multiverse of math. madness because one, a lot of that was in Carmarthage or just in a completely different dimension. But for everything that she did during Wanda Vision and holding an entire town in New Jersey

hostage, I think she could probably still answer for those crimes. I think that it probably wouldn't really fit within this series. So I think the most realistic past MCU villain that I would also like to see doing this would be Trevor Slattery from Ironman. 3 and Shang Chi. Yeah. Because I think he has probably the most possible case as well, because you could really, really argue with him, like, having no idea what he was doing in Iron Man 3, posing as a terrorist and all the trouble that he caused.

And you could see that he went to jail for it in that short film, I think it was around like 2014 when it came out, All Hail the King, where you actually see him in prison, serving his time. And then he's broken out of it. in order to face justice at the hands of the quote-unquote real Mandarin, seeing, and we saw how that played out in Shang Chi. So if he ever actually wants to come back to the U.S., if he wants to come back to the Earth,

he still hasn't finished his sentence technically. So I think that could be an interesting case for Jen Walters. And he's coming back in Wonder Man, right, sometime soon. So we need to clear his name before he gets back on the screen. All right. Well, you took my answer. I was going to go with Wanda slash. Scarlet Witch as well. I'm not sure Wong would be willing to testify on her behalf after what went down

in multiverse of madness. But think about it. I mean, when you consider the grief and the emotional pain and suffering that she went through and then the dark hold, basically playing the same role as the Super Soldier serum, right? You can argue that she just read too much of the book and it took over her mind. She was not in possession of her faculties. I guess a lot of supervillains were corrupted or scarred or taken over by something. So I feel like this defense might work for a lot of people, not necessarily the someone made me do it. You know, the symbiote made me do it. I mean, there are a lot of ways you could go with this. All right, that takes us to our verdict. Just a quick closing thought. And as for me, we're only a third of the way through this series. We're actually getting a longer

season for once, which is fun. It's been fun so far. And I feel like the fully actualized She Hulk only arrived in that last scene. So I'm looking forward to seeing more of her. And as I said last week, I'm looking forward to seeing a little of her love life. And I like the fact that she doesn't have a secret identity. She's just living out in the open like Miss Marvel by the end of that season. So this is all about not just balancing your life with people who don't know who you are and people who do, but managing to synthesize those two things and live out in the open in this extraordinary way. So I like this new style of story and origin story. And I'm psyched for what we're going to get next.

Where are you? Yeah, I'm definitely with you on that. I am excited to see where the series goes moving forward. I thought this was the funniest episode and probably the best episode that could demonstrate its potential as a series moving forward so far. And I also just want to give another shout out to Wong. I love Wong so much. I think he's been the MVP, the underrated MVP of Phase. for. He's had, he's been the crossover king as well, you know, being in so many different movies

like Shang-Chi, Spider-Man, Dr. Strange, and now this. And it's really fun being able to see him in this way again, just seeing him be comedic and just in a different capacity. So I think it's going to be fun, like seeing things like this moving forward. And it's just like a great potential for a low-stakes series in the MCU. Agreed. All right. Well, Gao has teased that episode four, and I quote is going to be a fan favorite of everybody's. So that will wet your appetite. For now, let's take a one week recess. Daniel, thank you for being this week's expert witness.

Thanks for having me, Ben. And you can read Daniel on every episode of Shehulk at the ringer.com. What a great website. Thank you to Jonathan Kerma for being our bailiff and producer today and keeping the court in order. Thanks to Arjuna Ramgapal for his typically superb podcast management. and please watch this space for more Mal and Joe on Friday, Sunday, and Tuesday, more Midnight Boys on Wednesday, and more of yours truly next Thursday when I'll be back to share my diet and exercise secrets. No, I won't. I'll be back to talk She Hulk episode four. You definitely don't want to see a stinger of me and Daniel twerking. So we will end this thing right here. What's the difference between butter and butter made from real California dairy?

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