The Ringer-Verse - ‘She-Hulk’ Episode 7 Reactions

Episode Date: September 29, 2022

Ben Lindbergh is back and he’s joined by Miles Surrey to discuss the seventh episode of ‘She-Hulk: Attorney at Law.’ The guys dive into Jen’s group therapy session with Abomination and several C-list villains. Host: Ben Lindbergh Guest: Miles Surrey Associate Producer: Jonathan Kermah Additional Productional Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Yossi Salick, and I'm the host of Bansplain, a show where we explain cult bands and iconic artists by going deep into their histories and discographies. We're back with a brand new season at our brand new home, the Ringer podcast network, tackling a whole new batch of artists, from grunge gods to power pop pioneers to new metal legends and many, many more. Listen to new episodes every Thursday, only on Spotify. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matter. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required.

Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis, serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphaya today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfairad.com. This episode is brought to by Boris Head. What if we told you the taste of deep-fried turkey is now available at your local deli. Well, Boar's Head just did that. Firsting with flavor,

perfectly seasoned with that indulgent taste that usually means pointing your whole day around it, presenting the Friars Turkey Breast only from Boar's Head. The backyard tradition now available behind the counter. Visit your local deli today. Discover the craftsmanship behind every bite. Borershead committed to craft since 1905. I met him when I was Jen and he liked Jen. He's like Jen. specifically didn't ask about Sheaulk. You know in high school that friend that you have that's like, like cooler than you are, like more attractive and athletic?

And they get all the attention from everyone. Hello. Hello and welcome into the ringerverse. The ringer's nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. I am Ben Lindberg, a senior editor at The Ringer, and this is the Lindberg and Associates edition of the podcast. I know it sounds kind of conceited to. call it that, but I think it's okay because I didn't name it myself. Anyway, I'm Lindberg, and for the

fifth time in a row, I'm joined by a new and different associate, which makes me worry that no one wants to talk to me twice, but that's okay because I can work through that fear with help from Brother Blonsky and my co-host today. With me this week is a colleague with whom I have bonded over Dexter, Better Call Saul, for all mankind, a man who loves Venom so much that he is basically a symbiote and who's so into Aquaman that they gave him the keys to Atlantis, a sci-fi fan who's still holding out hope for director's cuts of Alien 3 and Event Horizon, but would settle for new seasons of the expanse or raised by wolves. It's Ringer staff writer. Miles Surrey, returning to the ringerverse after a long absence. Miles, thank you for being a man of many memorable passions.

Thank you for joining me today. Wow. Thank you for having me. That was an incredible intro. And I'm just going to say, you already mentioned better call Saul, but I cannot believe we're doing a podcast about a pop culture lawyer this year. And it is not about her beloved Kim Wexner. I know. Well, she has another show coming up, or at least Ray Sehorne does. So maybe we will reconvene for that. But I think I just encompass the entirety of your interest and personality in that intro, or at least I tried to. That's the alpha and omega of Miles Surrey. That is all you need to know right there. So here on Lindberg and Associates, we have welcomed. three either first time or infrequent guests into the ring ofverse circle. We're basically doing for the ring of verse roster what Sheehulk is doing for comics characters who have never before been in the MCU. And speaking of Shehulk, we're here to talk about episode seven. And Miles, your timing couldn't be better because I know you're a big fan of Daredevil.

And this week, after all the buildup and anticipation, we were finally treated to the MCU debut of Daredevil, villain Man Bowl. just what we've all been waiting for. Don't suppose you've also been a big Man Bowl fan this whole time, too? I'll be honest, mann bull is a first for me, as is his Mattador-esque colleague, whose name suddenly escapes me. El Aguila. Or Marvel's Zorro, as I think I might just start calling him.

Yeah, did not expect all these extremely unfamiliar faces, one of whom, which we can talk about later, is, you know, very, very minor blade antagonist, but also shares a name to a mercenary who was an antagonist of the Punisher. And so figuring all that out was also an adventure. So loving all these deep cuts, it seems like, you know, in terms of standing out from the rest of the MCU, it feels like She-Hulk really has a firm grasp on, like, the deepest Marvel cuts of them all. Yeah, it's always good when the cut is so deep that you can't even tell for sure which character it's referencing because it could be one of multiple characters with the same name. Anyway, we're all learning a lot as we go here. So before we dig

into who did show up on this week, She-Hulk, let me lay out a few programming reminders, because as always, we've got a busy slate. I hope I'm going to get this right because I didn't clear it with Arjuna first. But for at least the next couple of weeks, we are at peak content here. This Friday, House of Our will be back to break down the sixth episode of of the Rings of Power, a series that has received the Miles Surrey stamp of approval. Then you can catch Mal and Joe again on Talk the Thrones on Sunday as they give their reactions to episode seven of House of the Dragon and try to help Chris Ryan keep track of the Targary and Florian kids post-time jump.

They grow up so fast. Then Mal and Joe will be back on Tuesday with the House of our Hot D deep dive, followed by the Midnight Boys and-or instant reaction on Wednesday. and then I'll be back to start the rotation all over again with the She-Hulk Pod next Thursday. By the way, some Ring orverse listeners have asked about my thoughts on Andor, and here is my non-instant reaction, Endor Rules. Miles, I know you're with me on this one. Oh, my God, yes.

Anything from Tony, Michael Clayton Gilroy, you know, sign me up. I think I've only seen four episodes. I believe that's all that was sent out in advance, but I'm loving it so far. I love this kind of gritty Star Wars that feels like a real return to form after the book of both of that. Same, same. So I'd love to pot about Ind or at some point. But in the meantime, you can read my many thoughts on the show every week at the ringer.com. What a great website.

You all know about articles, right? We publish a lot of those, too. They're almost like podcast transcripts. They're still my words just without the audio. So just text, no apps or earbuds required. check it out. You might like it. So all of that content is coming to you soon. But as Brother Blonski says, today is today. And this week, we're talking about She-Hulk episode seven, the retreat, written by Zeb Wells and directed by Anuvalia. Now, normally for these pods, we've been following a trial-style format with opening statements and closing arguments and me pestering real-life lawyers for their thoughts on each She-Hulk case of the week.

but this is the least lawyered up episode yet, and there is no case. So let's ditch that format for this week and have a more freeform conversation, almost as if we were in the sharing circle at a Blonsky retreat. This is a similarly safe space. And I think group therapy often begins with new attendees talking a bit about themselves and how they got here. So since we have not checked in with you yet, give me a previously on to catch us up on your thoughts on the show and the C-Ey. So far, have you been enjoying Sheehook? Sure. Yeah. So to be honest, I didn't start watching Sheihilk until this weekend, catching up for this very pod.

But I've honestly, and also I apologize if you hear my cat in the background, she is my abomination. She is constantly pestering me with meowing at the worst possible times. Anyways, I've really been enjoying the show. It really does feel like the MCU's first genuine an attempt at a sitcom. Obviously, Wanda Vision kind of played with sitcom tropes, but it had a much with much different ends in mind with Wanda's, you know, struggling with her grief. Yes, holding an entire town hostage, etc. Yeah. You know, the classic I love Lucy setup of, yeah, it's subjecting an entire town to your grief. But yeah, I've really been enjoying the sort of, I guess, quote unquote,

case of the weak structure. I guess the closest tether this week. to Jen's actual lawyer life is just checking in on the abomination or Emil Blonsky's parole. And that was only because they were afraid that he actually was the abomination and that they would require Sheehal's services rather than Jen's. But yeah, I've really enjoyed the sort of carefree spirit of the show. I think, you know, I haven't really been diving into the discourse around the show or how people feel about it, which is interesting because the show seems to have a commentary on some of the criticisms that might be lodged against it from a misogynistic lens.

Yes, you're part of the discourse now. You've got a mic in front of you. Welcome to the discourse. But I personally, like, I've enjoyed the weird deep cuts. I've enjoyed the Easter eggs. I don't really mind that it hasn't really seven episodes through nine so far. It hasn't really, you know, focused on like, or at least put a face to the name of the big bad yet. I kind of like that it's more of a show that's about Jen and her kind of finding herself between trying to be Jen the lawyer.

And, you know, she helped the superhero and essentially trying to find a balance between the two. And I think by the end of this episode, when she has her pep talk at the retreat, it feels like she's probably, you know, the closest she has been yet to being content with both sides of her life. Right. And this week, no daredevil. We're waiting a little longer. There are no really major new character crossovers. Apologies to the El Agala fans out there. No loyering, almost no GLK&H at all, aside from that one short scene with Nikki.

So this was a retreat for Jen and also a bit of a break from regular business for the series, not that there weren't some important plot points, but no Twitter armor this week. We have no Wong, no Madison, nothing maybe that would generate huge headlines. And yet, I still enjoyed this episode. But I mean, we've seen so many different incarnations of this series, some more gen-centric, some less, some more cameo-centric and crossover-centric, some more professional life, some more personal life. It's been a lot of different versions of the show, but I've enjoyed all of them to varying degrees,

and I like this episode a lot, too. Yeah, I mean, honestly, the only real knock I have against the show, and obviously this has been repeated ad nauseum, is the CGI can be distracting. feels like it's somewhat seamless in certain scenes, extremely distracting in others. But other than that, I think it's done a good job setting up some of the supporting characters on the legal side of the show. I've especially enjoyed Jostigara as Pug. Kind of feels like an extension of his character whose name escapes me from the other two.

Just a very, like kind of like a, yeah, Lance, just kind of a friendly hymbo kind of in a sea of really toxic men on Shee Hulk, he is, you know, a bright light of a friendly hymniboness, at least so far. Hopefully that remains the case. But, yes. Yeah. And I also really like Renee Elise Golsberry. Oh, yeah. The best. And I'm curious to see if we'll get another appearance from Madison, who might be the greatest, like, might have had one of the greatest Marvel introductions I've ever seen because it just, I assumed it was just like a one-off scene. And, The fact that she kept coming back, she hung out with Juan to binge watch some shows. I really hope that this is not the last we've seen of her.

I'm sure it's not. I think they know what they have in Sensation Madison. So after last week's episode ended on the ominous site of a heavy-duty needle in a high-tech lab, this week we open with almost an idyllic rom-com montage. Jen is going out with Josh, the guy she met at Lulu's wedding. It's going great, or seems to be they're going to taco trucks and open air markets and driving movies and sharing giggles and glances. And she seems smitten. She's grinning at the office.

She's doing under the table texting. She's sort of taking things slow because she thinks she could care about this guy. In fact, after all of Jen's dating travails in past episodes, things are almost going suspiciously well with Josh. I will say this, though. the handshake should have been a red flag, I think, at the end of the first date, for anyone, really. But you're telling me that a man this smooth and handsome is going to go for a handshake at the end of a great date. I'm not saying he has to go for the kiss. I'm just saying, how do you not go hug over a handshake there, as Jen did instinctively?

That should have been a big warning sign. But who hasn't ignored a troublesome sign or two during the honeymoon phase of someone you just met, I guess? what do you think of Josh or what did you think of Josh, at least when he was introduced and when we were watching the early dates here, were alarm bells clanging for you before the quote unquote reveal or twist at the end? So one thing I actually did at the very, very start of the montage, you get like a split second of the full text exchange between Josh and Jen. And at one point, he basically implies that he already knows what neighborhood she's in. and then he quickly deflects.

But that was really, that should have been the first red flag for Jen before even going on the date and this extremely handsome man going for, you know, the casual handshake. So there were definitely some warning signs, but at the same time, I sympathize with Jen, because sometimes if you're talking to someone, and granted, she did meet him at the wedding and he seemed very charming, you just kind of want to ignore that little voice in your head that's like,

maybe this person's not all they make themselves out to be. So I don't fault her there, but, you know, obviously to go from from that to by the end of the montage, him effectively ghosting her, I mean, that should have been the final straw. You know, ideally, you wouldn't need to go to a retreat to know that maybe this person's not that into you or, you know, maybe, I mean, the best case scenario is just a one night stand. Obviously, by the end of the episode, it's much worse than that. I showed her to think how he even acquired her blood. And in some ways, I don't even want She Hulk to give us an answer to that mystery. But, yeah, Josh is clearly bad news, although I will say I didn't really think much of him from the wedding episode. Maybe I was just so distracted by Tatiana and Patty Harrison's hilarious cabio as Jen's old childhood friend.

Yeah, obviously the handshake is not nearly as big a red flag as the disappearance and radio silence after he and Jen hook up on the third date. If the person you just slept with for the first time sneaks out before you wake up without so much as a word or a note or a text, I'm not saying it always means that they must have stolen a sample of your blood while you were sleeping and taking a picture to prove it, but it means that they may have. So Jen is so distracted by Josh ghosting her that she doesn't even care that she's been nominated for female lawyer of the year. I don't know why they necessarily need to qualify the award, but obviously getting Blonsky out of prison and defeating Titania's trademark cases helps make a name for her as a lawyer, not just as someone with superpower.

So things are going great for her in most respects, but the Josh situation is making it hard for her to enjoy that success in this moment. So she's kind of compulsively checking for texts, but as we all know, a watched phone never dings. I do have a general observation to make about this sort of situation. And disclaimer, I've been married for almost five years. And I don't know whether that makes me underqualified to give dating advice or extra qualified to give dating advice. But my experience, and I'm not saying this is a universal experience because some people just don't have great text etiquette. And it doesn't mean that they're secret MRAs.

But when you're with the right person for you, communication is much easier. than this, I think, in my experience. When I met my wife, there was none of this, how long should I wait before texting? I don't want to seem too interested. Am I going to blow it if I used the wrong emoji here? We both just liked each other and wanted to talk to each other and weren't playing hard to get or adhering to arbitrary rules about going X days or hours before responding or asking someone out again or whatever. So we also weren't secretly stealing blood samples from each other as far as I know. So again, it's not an entirely analogous situation, but even putting aside the conspiracy to steal irradiated blood, if the person is this unresponsive without a

really strong excuse, then they're not worthy of making you care enough to risk crashing because you're checking your text while you're driving. It's like the love guru wrecker says later in the episode, if Josh isn't spending time on Jen, then Jen doesn't need to be spending time on Josh. So that's my message to anyone who's looking for love. And if you aren't looking, that's perfectly fine too. But I'm speaking from some experience there. Well, as the person on this podcast who is currently single, thank you for continuing to give me hope then. And if I've learned anything from this episode, obviously on first date, second date, third date, fourth date, I am not going to take anyone's blood, at least without that. Yeah. I'm not saying anyone should model their

entire love lives on me, to be clear. I got lucky, if anything. So three days after the last text and last date, Jen gets a call from Blonsky's parole officer, Blonsky's inhibitor has malfunctioned, and the parole officer is hoping Jen will be his backup in case the abomination shows up. So Jen drives up to picturesque summer twilights, home of Emile's self-healing support group, Abamaste. And Blonsky seems to be thriving here. As far as we know, the inhibitor issue was just a somewhat concerning glitch, false alarm. He hasn't gone back to his old ways. Though I do have to ask, are you at all concerned about the absence of the seven soulmates here?

If they bankrolled this business, they definitely did not skimp on anything because the property, the buildings, the real estate looks great. But I was worried that they might not find Blonski as fascinating once he was a free man and not a 10-foot-tall lizard monster. behind bars. So the fact that there are no-shows here was kind of concerning to me, but maybe he's just keeping his personal and professional lives separate. So I've got to say, like, I'm loving blist-out Blonsky. Like, this character has come a long way since The Incredible Hulk. And Tim Roth has like a borderline Christopher Walken cadence here that is really working for me. Yeah. I mean, first of all, I do wish his, his harem had showed up just so that we could like recreate the midsummer vibes in a more appropriate setting because that just seemed to be

their wardrobe. Yeah. But it's funny because I do genuinely enjoy this version of a Neil Blotsky that just seems like like basically the best case scenario for a villain trying to be reformed. It seems like he's, you know, owed up to his mistakes. He apparently like set an apology letter to Bruce Banner. Honestly, it's just a testament to Tim Roth being so unbelievably creepy in other roles, that there's still a part of me that just doesn't trust him. I would give a quick shout out to a film that came out this year, a horror film called Resurrection. I don't want to spoil too much about how Tim Roth's character plays into the plot, but he is absolutely terrifying and is terrifying in a way that not really so much with actions

as much as words, and just the way he sort of has almost like a holdover another character that is almost cult-like in nature. So it feels like an interesting tie to Emil Blonsky having this retreat and having, I guess you wouldn't really call them followers, but people who obviously are buying what he's selling and are going on this spiritual journey with him. Yeah, they're members of the Platinum Circle. So he's definitely playing against type here, but doing so masterfully, I would say. So Jen is about to head home. We get the all clear here, abomination-wise,

when she finds herself and her Prius in the middle of a friendly, cathartic, healing brawl between Man Bull, who actually is a Man Bull, and El Agila, whose resemblance to a Matador is deceptive. Extra confusingly, there actually is a character named Matador, or maybe multiple characters named Matador in Daredevil. It's just not this guy. just so we're all on the same page.

This guy only looks like a Matador and is not named Matador. And I've been joking about my podcast being the Great Lakes Avengers edition of the Ringervor. So I'm mad that I missed an actual GLA member when Mr. Immortal showed up last week, but we have no shortage of deep-cut characters showing up here. So we've got Manbull and El Aguila, and we also have Saracen and Porcupine. And I know that Jen described their introductions as unnecessary backstory. So there's that. And apologies to the porcupine heads out there who consider him a household name.

But I'm not sure your average viewer or us, for that matter, is up to speed on who we're dealing with here. So can you give us brief bios on these guys? Maybe we can start with El Aguila because before there was Enigo Montoya, there was Alejandro Montoya. Yes. So probably the most interesting takeaway. from this very obscure character is that he is technically a mutant. And so even though he dresses up as a Matador and has like a whole Zoro vibe going for him,

his powers, which we do see briefly in the episode, he can basically generate bioelectricity and his weapon of choice while doing that is a sword. He is in the comics a recurring antagonist for Iron Fist, which, you know, I'm not saying we're going to see the return of the much malign Iron Fist after his Aponibus Netflix series, but that's something to keep in mind, you know, in terms of like, what, like, basically what level of a villain is this guy? No disrespect to Iron Fist, but obviously this isn't the kind of guy who's going to go up against, like, Thor.

Right. Yeah, he's, man bull is more his speech, I guess. guess. So what can you tell me about Mr. Bull? Well, his real name is William Bill Torrens. So he already, it sounds like he was destined to become a bull. His appearance. Nominate of determinism. I think that's what that's called. He is a dare devil antagonist and his appearance as well as his, you know, extra strength that comes from his bull-like, Man bull-like form, if you will, comes from being injected with an experimental serum taken from bulls. Apparently, he can be a bit unstable in his animal form, you know, mess with the bull, get with the horns and all that. So I can't say I'm too intimidated by man bull, but I can definitely see how he could be a nasty antagonist to go up against, especially if you do actually

have to, basically you don't want to get impaled by Manville. That does not seem like a good way to go. You could get gourd. So I would think that Blonsky should have a lot to teach Manvall because they both took experimental serums and transformed into unstable kind of creatures. Not that that's that unusual and origin story, but Blotsky can kind of speak from experience there. So you mentioned that there are two Saracens, the Punisher Saracier and the vampire Saracen, I guess this being a vampire. We would assume that this is the vampire, Saracen. You never know. But whatever you want to share about either or both of the characters with this name who are not on Friday Night Lights, please feel free.

Sure. Well, unsurprisingly, the Punisher Saracen, who is a mercenary, he is killed by the Punisher, who infamously is not a very merciless, merciful anti-hero, sorry. Um, this Saracen, um, you know, he's introduced in a blade vampire hunter, the comic from 1999. It's revealed that he's one of the first vampires who was on Earth. So he's actually very rare in the sense that, you know, he's a vampire who's basically lived through all of human history. And even though his inclusion here in Shee Hulk is very chill, he clearly wants to curb his vampiric urges. the fact that he is in the series, you know, even if he's obviously not an important character in the blade lore, the fact that he's introduced here, obviously, could pay off down the line,

perhaps in a cameo in the Mahershala Ali film that unfortunately did just lose its director. So still plenty of work to go there, but perhaps Sarah Ken will show up at some point in the future. And our final new face or new person in a gilly suit, at least until the end of the episode, a very spiky gilly suit, is porcupine, who seems to be aptly named. I can sort of see where he got that. So tell me about porcupine. Oh, boy. So there are actually three different people who have taken on the porcupine mantle in the comics.

Alexander Gentry, Roger Gocking, and Billy Bates. The one thing they do have in common other than the suit is that they are prickly foes of Ant Man. Okay. The porcupine that we see in Shee Hulk is Alexander Gentry, assuming he has the same background as Gentry in the comics. He used a weapons designer for the U.S. Army. He conceived of the porcupine suit as sort of like something the army could use in battle. and apparently he has self-esteem issues that stem from basically making the suit, thinking that whenever he's thwarted, that means he's just not a worthy villain.

And it's clear that this lack of confidence extends to the show because he's afraid to even take off the suit. And there's a third? Did you mention all three of the porcupines? Is there a current porcupine? Is this an ongoing character? I believe this is gentry. The first of the three porcupines I found on Marvel's Wikipedia, which this was an adventure. It was quite a Wikipedia wormhole to go through.

I honestly, like, by the end of it, I wanted to get into that urn and just sweat out the toxins. It was a very weird afternoon. I think we have all enjoyed that this is a low-stake series by Marvel standards, but I also like that She-Hulk continues to do some semi-radical things. things for the MCU under the guise of comedy, almost a Trojan horsing in these pretty groundbreaking concepts potentially. I mean, we have mutants on back-to-back episodes here with Mr. Immortal and Al-Aguile. We may have a vampire.

And, you know, Miss Marvel introduced mutants and werewolf by night may confirm vampires or other creatures. So this isn't totally out of left field. But after the Disney Fox deal a few years ago, Kevin Feigey talked about. the prospect of integrating non-markey mutants. And I would say that these characters qualify, no offense to our new friends. But this series is making these concepts seem almost commonplace, which could lay the groundwork for maybe some upcoming conflict with mutants. We have inhibitors here, which have been used to suppress mutants' abilities. I love the idea that these are just

jokey characters in a silly lawyer show, but it's possible that in a few years we'll look back and think that She-Hulk was kind of groundbreaking and either intentionally or semi-accidentally seeded some ideas that turned out to have actual lasting implications. Like, I'm already workshopping my She-Hulk is low-key, the MCU's most significant series take for 2025. Well, I mean, I shudder to think what's going on in Kevin Feigey's brain trying to sort of connect all these dots because, you know, as the MCU continues to, stretch itself, it's honestly hard to keep up with all the, you know, the multiverses, now mutants are part of the Ecracean. We're going to get the Fantastic Four. Vampires, I guess, also exist now. It is, it's a lot to keep track of. So it's kind of nice that at least if we're getting introduced to some of these concepts, it's in a very kind of light and airy show like Sheehulk, so it doesn't

feel like it's being, you know, jammed out on approach or something. Right. So El Aguila has people misidentifying him as a matador, and maybe he's struggling with his matador tendencies himself. Manbull has people calling him in a front to nature, and El Agula presenting as a matador is understandably triggering for someone who's half bull. Porcupine has problems with vulnerability, maybe also some problems with personal hygiene. Saracen thinks he's a vampire or actually is one, although that does help him guess that Josh wants Jen's blood. Of course, I'm sure he thinks that about everyone. He just happened to be right this time. Wrecker of the wrecking crew is here, too, and he's repenting now for jumping Jen in the alley behind her house at the end of episode three.

We all have our problems and peccadillos, but the important thing is that these guys are taking the necessary steps to get help. And between this and Falcon and the Winter Soldier, marvel's making major strides in normalizing therapy for superheroes, which is good, because honestly, like, who needs mental health help more than superpowered people, especially people who are adjusting to those powers on the fly while also doing other jobs and having friends and family? Like, this seems something that you might need a professional to help you talk through some of these issues.

So I applaud them for opening up and getting help. Yes. And I also appreciate that with the introduction of the yurt, I'm pretty sure that, This is canonically where Aaron Rogers has been going on his ayahuasca trips in the NFL offseason. The inclusion of these characters this week, I mean, just kind of confirms that this show has always been and continues to be for the hardest of the hardcore comics nerds. In addition to everyone else, it is also for just casual fans or mainstream fans or whatever, people who are first time watching a Marvel series. But they really do deep cut. It actually reminds me of something on the NPR podcast Planet Money where they tried to get the rights to an existing superhero.

And it was too difficult to do anything with even the most obscure copyrighted character in part because even if a character has been dormant for decades, a company like Marvel won't just give them away because, hey, you never know. They might show up on Chi Hulk or another series someday. It's sort of smart just to seed all of these characters in because they might take off like Rocket Raccoon and Guard. of the Galaxy or Groot, you know, like weird kind of semi-obscure characters maybe in some quarters who actually become headliners. So instead on Planet Money, they ended up working with this public domain hero from the 40s named Microface, who has a microphone for a face, which is perfect for a podcast. And that's kind of close to the character tier we're dealing with here by Marvel standards. Like, we already knew that She-Hulk's writers are the queens and kings of

deep-cut comics references, but they're really outdoing themselves here. And I actually wanted to put a prompt out for our listeners. I would love to know which super deep-cut Marvel character you would want to show up in this series. Not the one that you predict will appear, but the one that if you were a She-Hulk writer, you would go to the mat, make it your mission, to sneak into a script. So someone obscure enough that Marvel might actually say, sure, go ahead. We have no plans for this person who haven't thought of this character since 1967. So send your picks in on Twitter to me at Ben Lindberg or to at Ringerverse or use whichever social platform you prefer.

And maybe I can share some suggestions next time. And who knows, maybe She-Hulk writers will take your suggestions for season two. This episode is brought to you by Prime. Obsession is in session. And this summer, Prime originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love. stories and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice. Off campus, L, every year after, the love hypothesis, Sterling Point, and more. Slow burns, second chances, chemistry you can feel

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or visit Trimfair Radio.com. This episode is brought to you by Sweetgreen. The day doesn't ask for permission. Lunch window? Gone before you saw it coming. You deserve a break that. actually satisfies sweet greens new wraps have got you real ingredients zero shortcuts everything you love in one hand think green goddess chicken garlic aoli crumbled bacon corn salsa 40 grams of protein made to keep up with whatever comes next new sweet green wraps hit different order now at order dot sweetgreen.com so back to the blonsky retreat i have absolutely been the person who's searching for cell phone reception instead of just embracing being off the grid.

And I am not hurting for a yearton in general. But this experience looked pretty appealing to me. Like, I'm guessing the Platinum Circle membership to Summer Twilight's is pretty pricey. But I feel like I could use some time at this retreat. Having seen Blonsky's methods in action here, would you want him to be your therapist? Even though I'm still a little terrified of Tim Roth, yes. I think we suffer. from the same affliction, which is that we are terminally online. Our job requires us to

basically stare at a screen all day and inhale a ton of content. And so I think being in a situation where not only you are at a retreat, but you're at a retreat where you basically have no excuse to check your phone or, you know, pull out a laptop and get, you know, get some Wi-Fi going. I genuinely do think that actually is, it can be quite restorative. I am actually leaving on a vacation on Friday. And for part of it, I will be without, you know, cell reception or Wi-Fi. And a tiny bit of it is daunting, especially as I am currently in my fantasy baseball league's playoffs. I really do want to set my lineup and hopefully, you know, no surprise, like no surprises while I'm offline.

But other than that, I'm honestly really looking forward to it. I think sometimes, you know, try as we might to try to, you know, work on self-improvements. Sometimes we just need a little help along the way. And I think that's something that Jen obviously realized by the end of the episode. Yeah. If you need me to manage your team while you're away, I am willing to help out. I know a thing or two about baseball. So it is pretty momentous for Jen also who's dealing with a lot right now.

I mean, you know in high school that friend you have that's cooler than you are more attractive and athletic that get all the attention from everyone? Honestly, yes. Yeah. There were a handful of kids. Most of my friends in high school, as it so happens, were on the baseball team. I was a cross-country kid. And, you know, when you have your friends throwing like, you know, 80-mile heaters and blasting whole runs and it was like I ran really long. you know, in a park.

You just don't seem as cool as any of them. So I certainly related to Jen in that respect. What about you? Yeah, see, I couldn't actually speak to this from experience because in high school, I was that person for everyone else who was cooler than everyone else was. So all my friends were like, I wish I could be as cool as Ben. He played so many video games.

Yeah, you know, he reads so many Star Wars books. He makes it look so easy. But if I try to put it. put myself in Jen's place, I can see how that might be tough. So, I mean, in all serious, we have seen her struggling with this second identity just being forced upon her and how it affects the way that she's perceived in her work life and her love life. And the first dude she slept with admitted that he was only interested in She-Holk, not Jen.

And then Josh played on those insecurities by pretending to be into Jen and not She-Hulk. And I'm sure some people watching the show who maybe weren't total dream-bunk. In high school can probably identify, even if they didn't suddenly get green skin and super strength. Maybe you get a glow up. You start dressing differently or change your appearance in some other way. Maybe you win the lotto. Whatever it is, people view you differently. And maybe you're grateful for the attention, but also suspicious of it.

Are they interested in the person I always was or only the exterior? And Josh isn't really too good to be true. Jen does deserve someone like him or like who he pretends to be. and I'm sure she could find a person like that, but it is too good to be true in this specific case. And ideally, she'd like both sides of herself and find someone else who likes both sides too. And then as I was saying earlier, you find the right person and it shouldn't feel like work. It shouldn't feel like it's hard. And that's what she gets from this therapy group, that acceptance.

And as Rekker says, maybe this Josh thing hurts so much because you haven't been spending enough time with Jen, which actually sort of sounds like a note from Marvel's accounting department, more Jen, less she-hulk cut down on the VFX bills. But this seems to be a pretty moment this moment for her, because she's had a few other instances this season where it seemed like she had reconciled these sides of herself, and then new issues surfaced. So this probably won't be the last time that she struggles with this, but that's okay. That's what makes the character compelling.

I'm sure Blonsky would have irrelevant platitude. to share here. I don't know, self-acceptance is a process. So we've been going on this journey with Jen and it's not over yet, but this is maybe a milestone along the way. Yeah. And I also, I think, obviously, I don't want her to be in this situation where she's probably going to find out next week what Josh has done and, you know, what it means with this intelligentsia, you know, 4chan group, but the fact that she's, she, uh, this episode, she was able to, you know, be a little more comfortable with herself as Jen and she all can kind of tackle some of these insecurities. She's obviously going to be in a much better place when she has to handle this

adversity with Josh and the rest of the 4chan group. And, and obviously it's still probably going to be messy, but now she has the tools to, you know, once she defeats the bad guy, she still knows how to be comfortable with herself, ideally. Yeah. What do you make of Shee Hulk framing the whole season in a sense around that kind of toxic culture? Because I admire how the series has handled it. I always wrestle with how much attention to devote to toxic fans. And on the one hand, it's hilarious that Shee Hulk, which was written years ago,

predicted that there would be a backlash from some ignorant subset of the audience and is preemptive trolling the trolls highly accurately. I mean, the fact that the show anticipated that so far in advance just makes it look even more pathetic. Like, not only is it hateful, it's unoriginal, you know, like find a new sexist slant. So I like that She-Hulk is just kind of cutting the trolls down to size and mocking them as the misguided man babies that they are. But, you know, you could or should or take the stance of Jen, who is just for now, at least,

ignoring the intelligentsia and saying, I don't care what a bunch of losers say about me online. And Nikki is much more concerned about that than Jen is at this point. And maybe it's dangerous to ignore it, as Jen is about to discover when she finds out that Josh was just after her blood. I think it makes sense to call out and condemn this kind of behavior rather than pretending it doesn't exist and just allowing it to fester. But it also bothers me that review bombing and hateful tweets get so much media coverage that sometimes they just become a big part of the narrative about some series, which to some extent, I guess, gives the trolls the attention they want. Like, I become much more aware of these people's bad opinions because of the coverage.

And granted, that may not mean that much because the tweets aren't directed at me. So even if I were just blissfully oblivious to them, they would still exist and potentially be hurting the targets that they are directed at. But I wonder whether the extra oxygen kind of fans the flames. Because, like, I always want to think the best of humanity. Maybe I shouldn't. But I'd like to think that it's usually just a tiny minority of people. And you never know whether they're bots and, you know, other tactics amplifying those extremist viewpoints and making them seem more numerous than they actually are.

So I wonder whether depriving those people may not make it go away. I'm not saying if we ignored it, it would just stop, but focusing on it could encourage it in a sense and that bullies and trolls always try to provoke a reaction, right? Like, they want it to bother you and get to you. So it's a tough thing because you don't want to be like there must be X number of death threats or like racist tweets to qualify as a problem that must be dealt with. Like one is a problem. It's just it's tough to stop every single person from being an idiot online, much as I would want them all to sit in. in the calming chair and take radical accountability for their actions. Like if Jen could send everyone from the Intelligentsia Forum to Obama's day so that Brother

Blonsky could teach them to take responsibility for their anger, that would be great. It would be great if we could do that for everyone in real life. Yeah. I mean, yeah, unfortunately, there aren't always the answers. I mean, as two people who are obviously following House of the Dragon and Rings of Power, we are seeing, well, not similar. It's more racist and sexist, but we're seeing these criticisms, or not criticisms, but, you know, this backlash against these shows for the audacity of having people of color in their cast,

which is a particular end of itself. And I've even, just for writing a positive article about, you know, enjoying rings of power and the Middle Earth world building, I've been getting lots of painful messages and implying that I'm being, you know, paid by Amazon to say nice things about. shown, boy, I wish that were the case. I'm sure they have a lot of money to spare. But bringing it back to Sheeholt, you know, in terms of like, you know, pop culture precedence for, you know, what Sheehulk is setting up with Intellihellencia and, you know,

them being the quote-unquote big bad of the season. It did make me think of Buffy the Vampire Slayer's sixth season. I'm not sure if you followed the show back in the day, one of my favorites of all time. but for the sixth season, which is the season after Buffy sacrifices herself and she's brought back to life by her friends, it's the first time that the show has like three, a trio, as they're called, of nerds who are the big bads. And it's basically three frustrated young men who are just trying to take out their insecurities and basically just their, you know, insecurities and and basically just just their hate against Buffy and her friends. And to see, you know, that, it seems like the show, whether intentionally or not is sort of

reflecting that those same resentments in like a post-Gamergate era where it's like, you know, She-Hulk is simply resented for the fact that she's a woman and powerful, which I also, not to like nitpick the show, but it's just like, I don't understand why She-Hulk is suddenly drawing the ire of these people when like Captain Marvel and all these other female heroes already exist. I don't know why Shehold has to be like the lightning run of all the tape, but I

am very curious to see what what the payoff is for the storyline because, spoiler alert for Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season 6, but the like toward the end of the six season,

the trio of nerds are like swapped out for Buffy's Willow kind of succumbing to sort of her darker tendencies than a witch. And so we get a brief arc of her kind of, you know, taking the wrong lessons from wanting to get revenge on these nerds for killing her girlfriend. And so I'm curious that there will be, you know, whether it's from Jen or one of her friends, whether there will be a similar kind of violent response to what the group is

doing or whether, you know, there would be some lesson of like, let's not, you know, basically counter hate with more hate or violence with violence. You know, I'm very curious basically just to see what they end up doing with it. Because we don't really know who the big bad actually is. Like, we don't know. As far as I'm aware, we're not, we don't even know who Hulk King is yet. Right. Exactly. Still a mystery. So, yeah, that's a pretty prescient buffy arc, I guess. Not that racism and misogyny are new. The only new thing, if there is anything new about this is just how easy it is to disseminate these opinions widely, which I guess makes me think that maybe we should all just have no reception or Wi-Fi ever. And then people

could not share their terrible opinions, and we could not encounter them. Wouldn't that be a wonderful world? Yeah. Also, I mean, I love Buffy. You know, I always have the show, but with Josie Wieda making these criticisms, it's a little bit of pop-hawing to kettle back. So, there's that. Yeah, there is that. So, So at the end of this nice healing day and a nice yurt sash, Jen drives off in the slot towing truck. Another nice nod to the comics and then slots run on that series. And the sun is shining and her mood is sunny too. But then we get the flashback to Josh, who copied the contents of her phone in addition to nabbing her blood at some point.

And this week and last week, I think, have really solidified for me that this is just a fun sitcom. I mean, it's not just a fun sitcom, but it is that in addition to everything else. You know, early on, I think I enjoyed it as a change of pace from the usual Marvel model, but I would say I found it more amusing than laugh out loud funny. But that's changed these past few weeks. And not just with Wong and Madison, but with the recent focus on Jen, like, I feel like it's really found its stride, found its voice, hit its stride. It's just kind of firing on those cylinders, even as some of the other bigger picture things have receded, at least temporarily. Like, it's gotten to the point where the plot to take down Shee Hulk and the mystery of who

Hulk King is feels almost extraneous to me. I mean, I would probably enjoy the show in a nice, low-stakes way, even if it were just a sitcom slash legal procedural without a villain who's trying to kill the main character. Yeah, and I mean, as an extension of that, I know that every week fans are climbing for this daredevil appearance. And while I obviously as a fan of the Netflix Marvel series, I would love to see Charlie Cox back in the role. I've been enjoying Gens' cases of the week. Well, I binged it, to be fair,

but I've been enjoying her cases of the week. And as much as excited as I am for the inevitable daredevil appearance, I'm not going to be mad that. that we're not getting it this week or the previous week or, you know, after the teaser with this helmet. I've been really enjoying getting to know Jen and her colleagues. And, you know, whenever Daradovel does show up, I think the fact that he is, A, a lawyer and be someone who also struggles with balancing multiple identities, I think they'll probably be able to hit it off. Yeah. And sparks may fly. And perhaps there will be real romance. Who knows? And no one will get

milkshake ducked and it will all be wonderful. nice, but I imagine we've got a couple of plot-packed weeks ahead of us here, building up to the finale and the crescendo with Daredevil's episode and presumably some supervillain reveals. So before we go, any Hulk King theories or preferences? I mean, the closest I could think of is one of her previous dates. I believe his name was Todd. Yes. He referred to her as a specimen at one point, which was, you know, word of advice to all the other single men out there. Don't ever call anyone a specimen on a date. Right. No. That's what I was called in high school when I was cooler than everyone. People would say been such a specimen,

but that's different, I think, from this context. And also, of all the people she went on a date with, the actor who plays Todd, he, you know, he's part of the main cast of the comedy miracle workers. He was also in the Showtime series super pumped about the rise of Uber. You know, that's a, I mean, not like a big name per se, but, you know, for that guy to just be in a couple episodes as like kind of a lame date, it just feels like a waste of an actor of that profile. So if I had to guess that, you know, assuming it's something we've already met, then I would say that maybe Todd is the Hulk king. What do you think? Yeah, I'm with you. Yeah, we've tossed out some candidates for other people who it could be on earlier episodes this season and, you know, people have thrown out the leader or, or.

various other existing characters, but this show is so committed to the misdirect. I mean, teasing Daredevil two episodes ago and then holding out on us, or even on the last episode, showing us this big needle, which looked like maybe an adamantium needle that might be able to pierce Shehulk's skin. And then it turned out that the real strategy for stealing her blood was just to get close to Jen, who has puny human skin. So I'm liking the Todd theory more and more that just this rich guy who called her a specimen on her date and then turned up at the law firm might actually be the person. Just Todd might be the big bad.

Just Todd, unless Todd turns out to be someone else too. And there are multiple layers to this whole thing. But I think that would be very in character with what we've seen from this series so far. I mean, we also, we can't rule out Mephisto. Of course. Yeah, always a candidate. Or the goat that Madison made a deal with might show up. Maybe the goat is Mephisto, just so many possibilities.

So one more thing, because we're going to get Daredevil in one of the next two weeks, give me your grand unifying theory of what makes Daredevil good as someone who has consumed a lot of Netflix Marvel series. Yes, some of it really against my will, but I will say Daredevil is probably my favorite series of the bunch alongside Jessica Jones. Anyways, my theory with Daredevil, the show, the quality. of the show correlates to Daredevil's outfit. When he was just basically putting on whatever he could find, almost like a Dexter style kill Henley and just the bandana over his head. The show was awesome.

It felt gritty. It just felt like he was just some dude who was basically almost like the Batman angle of like, I'm vengeance and I'm just going to beat the crap out of anyone who gets in my way. When he got the suit on, the show suffered for it. It tried to juggle too many things with the hand with the introduction of the Punisher. And then when in the third season, Bullseye actually, you know, basically took Daredevil's identity and started killing people. And he went back to the bandana. The show was good again.

So I obviously, the season is already in the bag, but I will just say, you know, Disney, if you're listening to this, please just keep it simple. Give him a bandana. Let him just be kind of like the gritty street-level character we know and love. do not give him a costume. Is it just me? Is it cooler when a, you know, a superhero is just some guy puts on something in his home and basically beats the crap out of bad guys and then just goes home afterwards?

Well, is that worrisome then? Because we know that he's gotten this redesign on his costume with the high fashion Luke Jacobson cut of the Daredevil costume. Does that pretend that this is not going to be the good Daredevil? Well, I'd like to think that maybe Luke has a couple styles in mind for him. and like, you know, a more formal wear, something a bit more casual. Dressed down. Yeah, because it seems like he's got a few looks for Jen.

And so maybe he's doing the same for his other clients. Yeah. Yeah. Fingers crossed. I don't know if I'll be talking to you when the Daredevil episode happens. So as you mentioned, you're going on vacation and you will not be reachable. So as someone who enjoyed that series, what are you hoping for in terms of elements of that series? transferring over into the MCU or not?

Like, is it enough for you? Just that the character is coming back, that there's continuity with the actor, the fact that it seems to be sort of a separate story. Is that fine for you? Or will that be a bit jarring, having spent those several seasons with that character previously? Honestly, I think it might be jarring just because it's hard to imagine Charlie Cox's Daredevil being in a series like She-Hulk or his own series that would have a more jovial

tone. I think, you know, other than the tremendous fight scenes of the show, there's obviously like, there's a lot of darkness in the original Daredevil run. I mean, I will never forget for all the wrong reasons when Vincent Norfield's kingpin literally decapitated someone with a car door by repeatedly smashing their head until it fell off. I mean, whoever did the sound effects for that, that was disgusting. And I will, that was traumatized for life. Was that a, a squelching. It was a bit of sculching. I just remember watching it and just being,

whoa, I did not expect that level of violence. But I certainly don't expect that from Disney. No. But I do hope that we get, you know, these different shades in that Murdoch. And I do hope that, you know, the sort of more grounded elements that Charlie Cox brought to the role, I hope he's able to bring that back, even though obviously expect a much lighter appearance. what he does eventually show up in Sheehold. Yes, maybe not in this cameo, but maybe in his own thing.

I mean, if Darth Vader can snap teenagers' necks pretty grisly on Obi-Wan-Kinobie, then who knows? Maybe Punisher can get up to some neck stomping of some sort. So as the therapists say, looks like our time is up. So we will take our traditional one-week recess. Miles, thank you so much for being this week's expert witness. Thank you for having me. Today is today. Thank you to producer Jonathan Kerma for giving us a safe space to record today.

Thanks to Arjuna Ramkelpal for his always stellar senior podcast management. And please watch this feed for more Malin Joe on Friday, Sunday, and Tuesday, more Midnight Boys on Wednesday, and more me and associates next Thursday. Until then, please put down your magic crowbar, look in the mirror, and say, hey, I'm going to work on me. May you make your goal reality and achieve everything. Obama's day. Feels like every product claims real protein these days. But real doesn't start on a label. It starts at the source.

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