The Ringer-Verse - ‘She-Hulk’ Episode 8 Reactions

Episode Date: October 6, 2022

Ben Lindbergh is once again joined by Daniel Chin to dive into the penultimate episode of ‘She-Hulk: Attorney at Law.’ The guys dive into Daredevil’s official MCU debut, the romantic spark between Jen and Matt Murdock, LeapFrog, and much more. Host: Ben Lindbergh Guest: Daniel Chin Associate Producer: Jonathan Kermah Additional Productional Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at Fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer to. Terms. You say that, but I think you're in a unique position to do some real good. You see, the way I see it, Jen Walters can use the law to help people when society fails and she-ho can help people when the law fails them. So you can if you choose.

The best of both worlds. And welcome into the Ringerverse, the Ringers'Nexis podcast feed for all things fandom. I am Ben Lindberg, a senior editor at The Ringer, coming to you from Hell's Kitchen. Have I mentioned that I live and work in Hell's Kitchen with my neighbors, Matt Murdoch and Jessica Jones? Believe me, it is a much safer, nicer neighborhood than Marvel makes it look. They're trying to tank our property values over here. This is the Lindberg and Associates Edition of the Ringerverse, where we don't do one for us and one for them. We do all of them for you, the listener.

And I am joined or rejoined today by my guest from episode, three, the ringerge.com's most prolific purveyor of superhero content and a man who will be doing double duty, both podding and blogging about She-Hulk today. Secret double lives, how does he do it? He's Daniel Chin. Welcome back, Daniel. Thanks for having me back, Matt. I'm excited to be back here. Yeah, I'm excited too, because we've got a good one today. Not that we haven't had good ones before. They've all been pretty good, but this might be the best of the bunch because Hornhead, The horn dog himself is in the house. That's right.

This is the long-awaited, much-anticipated daredevil episode and the leapfrog episode, obviously. And the leapfraud episode, very important. That's the headline. Don't want to neglect Leaprog. I know you're a lifelong leapfrog fan. I mean, I'm looking behind you on the Zoom right now, and it's just wall-to-wall leapfrog, like leapfrog figurines, leapfrog comics, leapfrog wallpaper. It looks like the lily pad in there.

We get it. You like Leapfrog. Geez. Anyway, we will talk about him. But before we do, it is everyone's favorite part of the pod. Programming reminders. This is bigger than the Black Panther trailer, folks. For one more week, we are at peak content at the Ringiverse,

which means that this Friday, House of R, will be back to break down the penultimate episode of Rings of Power. On Saturday, Joe and Van will be covering Werewolf by night. And Daniel, you've seen it. Any brief, non-spoilery impressions to share? I won't get into it too much because I think it's actually out tomorrow. And all I've got to say is I'm a big fan of it. And I'm very excited for them to try to do more things like this in the future in terms of Marvel special presentations.

And just allowing itself to get a little bit weirder, hopefully. Yeah. Yeah, we all like weird. And I've heard good things, some of them from you, although not exclusively. So you can catch Mal and Joe again with Chris Ryan on Talk the Thrones on Sunday as they react to episode eight of House of the Dragon. Who's ready to take another time jump? I know I am, which limbs might Vassaris lose this time? Then Mal and Joe will take their own time jump to Tuesday with their House of Our Hot D deep dive, followed by the Midnight Boys and or instant reaction on Wednesday.

And then the grand finale of Shehulk next Thursday and rings of power. next Friday. So maybe we will finally find out who Hulk King and Sauron are on back-to-back days. It's a big week. Maybe Hulk King is Sauron. What is this? A crossover episode. Okay. All of that audio will be in your ears soon, but this week we're talking about She-Hulk episode 8, Ribit and Rip It, written by Cody Ziegler and directed by Kat Koiro. Like last week, we're going to forego the trial style format that we've been employing around here because we've got a lot to talk about. And week's case is pretty straightforward, so I don't think I need to call up a legal expert to ask if it's okay to void your costume warranty with jet fuel. Don't try that at home. Daniel, last time you were here, Wong and Megan the Stallion showed up, and now another star has come out for your podcast appearance after weeks of buildup and teases. So we'll discuss what went down in some detail, but big picture was Daredevil's first impression in the MCU, everything you had hoped and dream. Yeah, I mean, it was, it's been a long time coming for Daredevil.

And they've really been teasing this return for quite some time. So to actually see him in the MCU was like very exciting. You know, he's wearing a new suit. I feel like when early looks at the suit were revealed online, they kind of got some flag for it. But like I got some flag from Jen in this episode. Yeah, that's true too. But it sounds like Luke might have made him multiple. suits here. So, you know, we might see something different in a daredevil born again.

But, you know, like I really liked how they kind of, you know, teased him in Spider-Man, no way home, and to actually have him here in the suit, the way they kind of, you know, still pay homage to the actual Netflix series, whether that's like the little musical note that they had for the theme or the little homage to the classic hallway fight scene. But I think overall it was a lot of fun, but also just interesting to see Daredevil kind of fit into this tone of, you know, like the lighter tone of the show. And it'll be interesting to see how that kind of carries over into Daredevil One again, too, in terms of the stylistic changes that they'll be doing for that series, too. So overall, I was really happy. I was too. Yeah, I think they did Daredevil Justice here.

They made us wait for it, even showing us the mask, the helmet, the melmint a few episodes ago, the tease. and then making us wait a few weeks and even teasing leapfrog as if he was going to be the big reveal this week. And it's like Jen said, this guy's really kind of doing it for me. There's just something about that barely disguised English accent masquerading as American that soothes me. It's almost ASMR-ish. And they've got great chemistry. I assume that this is a one-and-done situation because Charlie Cox seemed to suggest that he and Tatiana Masanli only did one episode. maybe he was not wanting to reveal something, but that seemed to be what he was suggesting when he was asked about it.

He also expressed hope that she could show up on his show someday, so maybe a little home-in-home, like when Bill goes on the low post and Zach comes on the Simmons pod. So these two are perfect for each other, so I want it to work. And I didn't want to bury the lead. We had to start with Daredevil, but because She-Hulk never gives us what we want or expect right away, the episode starts with, leapfrog, whose rockets misfire with a very millennium falcon hyperdrive malfunction sort of sound, some Disney synergy there, causing his Luke Jacobson designed costume to catch fire and leading him to seek Jen's help with getting compensation and putting her in the awkward position of having to go after the designer of her dress for the gala. So I know you're not actually

a huge leapfrog fan. No leapfrog memorabilia visible in the Zoom window right now, but can you pretend to be for a minute and tell me what we need to know about Mr. Petilio. Oh, yeah. I mean, you can expect me to file a 3,000 word deep dive about Lee Frog to later today. But, no, I mean, for Leap Frog, like, you know, he, like many of the very obscure characters that have come up on Sheehawk was somebody that I wasn't familiar with immediately. And when they had a big promo for him ahead of the episode this week, I definitely went back and looked him up a little bit more. And he fittingly first appeared in a Daredevil comic in the

1960s, which, like, funny enough means he's like an even older character than Sheehawk, because her first appearance was in the 80s. And, like, in terms of a few things that I thought were pretty funny or clever in terms of what they're actually pulling from the comic's history of him, We Frog was actually an inventor in the comics. So he actually designs his own suit and his, you know, ability to jump for it, to weep, I guess you could say. And, you know, he fights against Airdevil. There's even a point in the comics in which Matt and Foggy represent him in court, and he tries to escape court by leaping through the window and ends up hurting himself by falling.

So, like, they're definitely, like, kind of like... Just like Mr. Immortal. Everyone's leaping out windows these are. Exactly. The quick way down. I think one of the most clever things that they did with the show, too, is, like, in the comics, at least, Vincent Patillo is Leapfrog, who is the father of Eugene. So here they're focusing on Leapfrog as Eugene Patillo. And they keep on mentioning him through the fact that his dad is a very rich and important client.

So they're kind of like teasing that little connection as well. And I don't know, it also shows that this is maybe a descendant of the original Leap Frog in the series as well. Right. Yeah, that's kind of a theme with a lot of these obscure characters we've come along here. It's like we can't even tell exactly which character or which incarnation it's referencing. They kind of take some liberties here, which is fine because most people would not know that they were taking any liberties. I mean, it's the deep cuts in this series. We've talked about it. You've written about it. I don't know if anything other than Harley Quinn possibly has had deep cuts that can compare to She-Hulks. And you can't call it fan service exactly. I mean, I'm sure there are. a few legitimate leapfrog fans out there who are like, finally, it's frog time. But some of the characters that they're mixing in here are unfamiliar even to comics readers. So it feels like the creators are just having fun with this. There's sort of a fond irreverence. There are some obscure characters. They've kind of lampooned lightly and lovingly and affectionately. And others are just sort of inherently ridiculous. And look, like, Frogman, leapfrog, it's a funny concept. I mean,

a lily pad instead of a bat cave, a frog signal, instead of a bat signal. He has a frogger and a leapfroger cabinet in his lair. He has lily pad trampolines. He's trying to put together a team called the Leap Squad. I'm amused. So I don't think I'd necessarily need 55 or 60 years of familiarity with this character to kind of get the concept. Okay, leapfrog, I'm on board. I see the costume. I see what he's going for here. And I'm laughing along and also laughing. at him a bit, but I think it's intended to be both. Yeah, it's a very funny, funny pull from the comics. And, yeah, I mean, it's like, I'm amazed at all of the really obscure references that they're

doing throughout the series. And then you mentioned up top that Cody Ziegler was the writer for this. And you remember he was on a recent, you know, X-ray Vision, the Cricket Media's podcast, talking about, you know, how there were a bunch of comic book fans in the writer's room. it makes sense that somebody like him, who's a big comic book fan, would be, you know, leading the Daredevil episode, but also, you know, putting in somebody like Leap Frog into the mix as well. Yeah, it's almost a challenge. It's like, look, this is a procedural. It's a sitcom.

It's a comedy. Let's go on the lighter side here. And there might be some one-upsmanship, some one-ups person ship in the writer's room going around with just how deep a poll can we find a way to incorporate in this episode. So we knew that Luke was connected to Daredevil because we saw that new costume at his shop. And in court, he makes his grand entrance. He thwarts Jen's attempt to get access to Luke's client list and then exposes the jet fuel that Leapfrog used in his rockets against Luke's advice. Just a massive cell phone by Leapfrog and a nice bit of lawyering by Matt Murdoch, who, of course, has some special abilities that help him sniff out that fuel, literally. And speaking of which, this is probably a good time to provide a little primer on Matt Murdoch's abilities because he and Jen joke about his echolocation, right?

But it's much more than that. So what exactly are the extent of his powers? Yeah. So, I mean, in this episode alone, I feel like we see kind of the full spectrum or almost the full spectrum of what his abilities are. And, like, I think the easiest way to put it is that, you know, after he was, he was blinded as a child in an accident. the rest of his senses gained heightened abilities. So, you know, you can hear at superhuman levels, obviously with the whole, you know, echolocation jokes and all that. But you can hear, smell, which you can see with the jet fuel taste and then feel as well, like to the point where if it's like a printed page of ink, he can read it as if it was raised like Braille.

And there's something that you see a lot, especially in the Netflix, Staredevil. series is how, you know, he can detect people's heartbeats. Like, he can tell if they're lying because of, you know, if their heartbeat, like, elevates and things like that. So you kind of see a little bit of all of that in this. Yeah, I love the little moment in court where Matt goes, he's lying. Don't ask me how I know. I just know. And everyone's like, we all know. He's a terrible liar. We don't need superpowers or finally honed senses to detect the falsehood here. So one more bit of lore to discuss that we get in this scene. Matt seems to clinch his argument by invoking the Sikovia Accords. A bit of a blast from the past here. And as he's trying to convince the judge not to

release Luke's client list, he says, we're not just talking about a product here. The very nature of Mr. Jacobson's line of work, making suits exclusively for superheroes, necessitates anonymity. May I remind you that the Sikovia Accords have been repealed? So this seems to resolve something of a mystery that dates back to endgame or beyond. So can you catch people up on what he's referencing here and whether this was a revelation and what implications, if any, it might have for our understanding of superhero's place in this world? Yeah, I mean, it was really interesting that it came up

because I think it's something that a lot of MCU fans have been wondering for quite some time. And here it was interesting because it was very quickly said, and almost like a throwaway line, but the implications are much bigger. I mean, this was the entire, you know, through line of like why Captain America's Civil War happened and just the whole rift that takes place between Tony Stark and Steve Rogers.

You know, and it was just one of, I think, the first real instances in the MCU where they're trying to kind of bring some, like, real world perspective into this, you know, very outlandish world of superheroes. where you're trying to hold superheroes accountable for their actions. And so, like, in Civil War, it happened after the incident with Scarlet Witch, with Wanda and Lagos, and also just after the events of the previous Avengers movie, Age of Ultron,

and just basically all the destruction caused by superheroes like Hulk. and just how cities are left just destroyed and, you know, the next movie. It's just we just go about their business like nothing happened. But like after something like endgame, it's like, all right, well, what's up with the Socovia Accords? You know? Yeah. It's it was referenced in as recently as Wanda Vision, after Wanda Steele's Vision's body, it's something that like Jimmy Wu says that she's broken the Socovia Accords by doing this.

So it's something that was even active as recently as phase four, but it's something where it's like, is it really still a thing? Because the whole point of the Skovia Corps is that you have to be registered essentially as a superhero. And it's basically a way for the government to hold heroes accountable for the actions. And, you know, there are things that happened like Westview where Wanda has taken entire town hostage and she just kind of flies away. Or we're seeing like in Sheeholk, especially. we're seeing all these these random superheroes just kind of going about their business as if there's like just so many now. So at some point in time that they were repealed and this this act was repealed.

And it means that for something like when the actual next Avengers team forms up again, it's not going to be like under control of their government or you know it'll probably play into how the Thunderbolts come together as well. So I think that's the way that we'll probably see that impact moving forward. Yeah, so I guess we probably could have inferred this from some events, but it's nice to get confirmation here and kind of close the loop on this question. And it just really kind of confirms my sense that, yes, this is sort of a silly, lighthearted show. But there are a lot of significant concepts getting introduced and characters that are bleeding into the MCU here where I do think that we'll look back and think actually She-Hulk was pretty significant in terms of the things that introduced to the MCU. You know, this is not necessarily what if for something. something like that. Obviously, there are things that are taken from what if as well, but this is not a detour. It's not just some total break from canon. I mean, it's silly, it's fun, it's lighthearted. It has been low stakes for much of this season. But I think there's some significant stuff that will actually lead to things down the road where we will look back and realize that while we were laughing at Sheehulk, there were actually like little building blocks and little hints that were being dropped here that might actually turn out to be significant down the road. And obviously we're getting a significant character introduced to the MCU here through Shiho.

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Off campus, L, every year after, the love hypothesis, Sterling Point, and more. Slow burns, second chances, chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime. We get then another encounter in the lawyer bar after court where Matt sends Jen and Appletini.

He starts charming her in his Matt Murdoch way, and it doesn't take long for him to help her have a pretty important epiphany. So he says, I think you're in a unique position to do some real good. You see, the way I see it, Jen Walters can use the law to help people when society fails them. And She-Hulk can help people when the law fails them. So you can, if you choose, and Jen completes the thought, be the best of both worlds. So this is the latest significant stage, I think, of her synthesis of Jen and She-Hulk. And I've mentioned this before, but this idea goes all the way back to the first issue of Savage She-Hulk, where Jen starts to come to terms with her superhero side and says, I'll learn to live with it.

From now on, whatever Jennifer Walters can't handle, the She-Hulk will do. Or the second issue of that book, I decided then and there to devote my strength as the She-Hulk to writing the wrongs that were beyond my abilities as Jen Walter's attorney. Or the flip side of that, I think it's issue 25 of that run. I thought I could handle anything and everything as the She-Hulk, but I see that just as Jen needs me, I need Jen. So that seems to be happening here. And I mean, Matt just showed up on the scene, and he's immediately blowing her mind and rocking her world here. but it makes sense, I suppose, that Matt Murdoch would have some wisdom

to offer Jen slash Shehawk here because she doesn't have a secret identity, but he's a lawyer, he works within and outside of the law. He's basically been in her shoes. So it seems like he's a logical character to help guide her down this road as a more experienced superhero. And I'm curious what you can tell me about

the comics history of these two, what kind of interactions they've had, whether you think this is pulling from anything specific or any other thoughts you might have about Matt Murdoch, Daredevil as kind of a logical guide and obviously romantic interest as well for Jen. Yeah, I mean, I think they used Daredevil really well here and timed it well with just the whole kind of journey through, for Jen's emotional journey throughout the season, like trying to come to great. grips with this kind of dual identity that she now has.

And as Matt sang in the episode, like this unique position that she has. And in terms of the comics, you know, they've definitely crossed over a bunch of times. Just, you know, like I said earlier, like Sheehawks been around since the early 80s and Daredevil has been around since the mid-60s. So it's like they've definitely crossed paths many times over the years. But I think this is definitely pulling most specifically from the 2014 run of Charles Sol. and, uh, however you're polito. Because in that, uh, he, there's actually two different, uh, appearances of, uh, Daredevil in that Sheet Hulk series where the first one, uh, Jen is actually seeking similar to this.

Well, I guess she's not really seeking it, but like in the comic, she's like seeking legal advice from that. And in a similar fashion of this, like Matt gives her very good advice and kind of just, you know, with them being superhero lawyers, like their shared experience and unique viewpoints on just both being a lawyer and a superhero. Right. Helps her see what she's dealing with in the comics in a different way,

just how she's learning to do that in the show as well. So like in the first appearance in that 2014 run, it's like they're hanging out on the Golden Gate Bridge in a very similar way to that they're kind of hanging out on the roof of the lily pad. But in this issue, it's like they kind of like they they team up, they go fight crime together afterwards after they chat for a bit. But there's another issue later in the comics where I actually face each other in court too. So I think they're pulling from both of those instances where now it's like, okay, well, Jen can get help from Matt as Daredevil, but now she is also going up against him in court.

And they do a fun job in this episode of showing how good if a lawyer Matt it is as well. And, like, Jen's just like, oh, damn, like, it's actually good, you know. Right. So I think they're playing off of a lot of fun things from that run. Yeah, which I think is part of the attraction. It's like, okay, I've met my match here. You know, she's obviously quite a competent lawyer in her own right, and she's often outmaneuvering people, and she's overmatched with other lawyers,

or they're overmatched with her. And here, they're kind of going head to head, and her client blows it, of course, and just completely sabotages their case. But I think there is a mutual respect and admiration that leads to attraction, of course. And it starts in the courtroom. And then it leads to, well, different forms of physical interaction, multiple different forms. So our heroes are viving here, but work gets in the way. Jen gets a text from Todd at an inopportune time, not that it's ever an opportune time to hear from Todd.

And Matt gets called away too. So they go their separate ways. Jen meets up with Todd, and true to form, he is creeping it up. He has spent a million dollars on a Wakandan war spear, and he's bragging about it. He informs Jen that no one is collecting African shit on his level. We learned that he studied abroad in Wakanda. He extremely cringially drops a Wakanda forever. Todd definitely not something you can say makes Jen uncomfortable, understandably. And, you know, after the Black Panther trailer dropped Tina Querta, who plays Namor, he announced that Namor is not the villain of the movie that he's an anti-hero, at least as Suerta sees it. So now I'm wondering, might Todd Phelps be the villain of Black Panther? Just soft launch him in She-Hulk. We hate him already.

Have Shuri take him down next month. That would be one solution. I'm not sure he's being built up to be a blockbuster villain. but this is an interesting connection given that Wakanda Forever is coming soon and that this is dropping immediately after the trailer did. Yeah, the timing of all the stuff that they're doing with She-Hulk, I feel like it's been very funny.

Faggy, you've done it again, the mastermind. It's very clever. Even like that one little line of mentioning Red Hulk towards the end of the episode, it's like, they know that we're speculating who Hulk King is. They just keep on leaning into our experience, expectations and playing around with it. So it's been very funny. Yeah. And you have to remember, these scripts were written years ago, right? I mean, they were pretty prescient. Some of these

scripts were written or at least begun in 2019, I've heard in various interviews. So we're talking about having to anticipate how this series will be received and what trolls will be trolling and what speculators will be speculating years in advance of these episodes actually dropping. And it seems like they have pretty perfectly anticipated some of the conversations good and bad that will be surrounding this series. So kudos to them for foreseeing these things and for making it seem as if they are reacting in real time to the conversations, whereas, of course, they have steered them years in advance, and we're all just puppets dancing on the strings here, so they've got us where they want us. So Todd tries to hit on Jen seemingly. She leaves. She gets a call from Leapfrog, who is

under attack, it turns out, by Daredevil. And then Jen dons her new duds from Luke. And as we suspected, it's a variation of the purple and white leotard type get-up that she's been rocking in the comics for a while now. Thoughts on the fit here? I thought it was cool the way they actually, you know, finally had her in the costume to like a little moment where she's about to go out and then turns and finally puts it on. And the fact that it's against Daredevil, you know, it's, it's fun. I mean, it's a lot of these shows, I feel like, are, you know, doing something similar where, like, towards the end of it, you know, like, they'll finally come into, like, full form, kind of similar to how even Daredevil in his first season enough, like, he finally puts on the suit, like, towards the end of the season. Right. Yeah, it made me think because of the interviews that were done early in the season when it was revealed that there was some reshuffling of episode order and that the premiere.

the pilot was originally maybe episode four, and at some point it was episode eight, which is where we are now, that they had kind of backloaded the origin story, and that Figi and the powers that B said, no, we should front load this. People are not as familiar as you might think with this character and her history. And so we have to give them a hand here and help them along and explain who Shee Hulk is and how she became She Hulk. But imagine in the alternate history where maybe Jessica Gao is completely calling the shot solo here and had drawn it up that way originally.

And we're here with one week to go before the finale. And now we get the origin story and we get Bruce and the whole scene on the beach. And who knows what it looked like and what the original structure was and what the intervening episodes would have been like. But that would have been a very different series. I think if we had just joined in the middle of the story, not seen how she got her powers. And then maybe we get to this big moment here where she dons the suit. I mean, maybe you find out how she got these powers.

and sort of the same sequence. I don't know whether they completely changed the order and that this was not in that episode at all, or it did seem sort of tacked on or shoehorned in the pilot where they just kind of broke away. And it was like, and here's the origin story. So that may have been attached to something else originally, who knows. But it is kind of fun to speculate.

Now that we've seen the whole sweep of it, I understood why they got that note and why they thought that made sense. And I didn't mind it personally. but it is kind of fascinating to think about how that could have been coming now when we're almost at the end of this season. That really would have changed the experience. Yeah, I was actually thinking about that a lot too,

just because I feel like especially early on in the season and just the way that they kind of released this show on Disney Plus with just the premiere alone, I think they probably could have benefited from doing a few episodes like they did with Andor. And it is really interesting to think in hindsight, just because, you know, they do dive directly into Hulk, and I think it's kind of distracting in getting to learn more about Jen herself

because you're meeting her through the lens of Hulk and Bruce Banner. But now that we have this Daredevil episode, now, it's interesting because it makes sense in terms of the emotional journey that they have her going on as well, where in the beginning, she, she like, just doesn't want to do anything with She Hulk. She just wants to go back to her life as Jen. Yeah. And now as she has another superhero come into her life. who can give her a different perspective.

And now that she's experienced these different things, she's seemingly open to both lives now. Both lives as She-Hulk and Jen. And at the start of this episode on the previously on, she says previously on my show, right? So she's embracing it. She's sort of asserting her primacy here, even though this is going to be another Twitter armor week

at another big cameo and crossover. It's her show. And she has completely earned that right at this point. So the suit looks good, I think. It is comics accurate, more or less, but sort of its own little spin on the general design. And crucially, it seems to shrink and expand with Jen and Shehulk as they size up and size down. So that's the important thing. Maybe Luke is using some Mr. Fantastic style unstable molecules here to make this work so that we don't need constant wardrobe changes.

And then we get a Shehulk Daredevil showdown. and there's some action here. She takes him out with the sonic clap that, again, she was trying to master back in the premiere, right? And sadly, not the twerking butt clap that the internet was asking for after episode three, but effective nonetheless. And, you know, there were perhaps a few hiccups from a CGI VFX perspective in this episode. They were asking a lot of these characters.

I've really put that out of my mind at this point. I'm just, I'm used to it. I've accepted this is what a she-hulk looks like. Sometimes movements and expressions will look a little unnatural, but who am I to say what would look natural for a giant green-skinned person who's been irradiated? So I've just kind of taken it on faith that this works. And for the most part, it doesn't bother me at least when she's seated,

when she's just walking around. And sometimes when there's more of a kinetic action scene and there's more interaction and she is picking things up and she's throwing things, then it will take me out of it here and there, but not in a way that really hampers my enjoyment too much. So what did you think of the action scene here? Yeah, I mean, with you just saying, sometimes the picking up can take you out of it, like when she picks up Daredevil in this episode. That was like the one instance where it kind of took me out for a second.

But yeah, I agree with you. Like, at this point, you know, I've gotten used to it and I don't really mind it that much. It was fun seeing them, especially, like, fighting together. And also, like, you know, speaking, like, legal jargon while fighting as well. Right. But, again, like, you know, going back to what I was saying earlier, too, with that Daredevil fight scene. Like, I do like how they had, like, that one moment, you know, like, appreciating the fact that fans have been waiting this long for Daredevil to actually be in the MCU. and to give him a moment of his own

and to make it very clearly referencing that, again, that hallway fight scene from the original Daredevil Netflix series. So it's between the quick fight between Daredevil and She-Hulk and all of that later on with their team up at the lily pad.

I thought it was a lot of fun to see the action in this episode, especially when it's been kind of sprinkled throughout the season. There's been a lot of episodes where we have haven't had much action. And I think that's been fine, too. It's nice to have a balance of both. Yeah, right. Because so often it seems like we complain about too much action or everything else gets sidetracked or sidelines because we have to have a big CGI scene where there isn't a lot of plot advancement or character development. And this is kind of the opposite end of the

spectrum. It has been nice for the most part. So she unmasks Matt. We get that nice snippet of the old Daredevil theme music. So Marvel's really like playing on our audio-based memorandum. here, like with X-Men 97 and just the cartoon theme song and everything, just triggering these memories in us. And she asks him if he's pretending to be blind, which would be problematic. Maybe an acknowledgement of some of the conversations about Charlie Cox not being blind and portraying a blind man in this role. But she's not impressed by his new look.

She also doesn't seem to have heard of Daredevil. So all of us have been waiting with bated breath to see Daredevil in the show. and she's she hulks like who so and i guess it makes sense right i mean east coast west coast ground level hero new to the superhero game maybe it makes sense that this would not be a household name that she hulk would not know daredevil did that surprise you at all yeah i mean it's i think one of the things that people are probably waiting to see and like we're probably I mean, at this point, we know we're going to have to wait until the actual Daredevil series is like how much or if any of the previous stuff is going to be considered canon for the MCU now. Right.

And at least in this from what we saw, like Matt's been doing this for some time. So I think all of that was interesting to see and kind of like tease at and just, again, all of those little references to like the lying and the heartbeats and stuff. Like he's, he's been at this for a while. So it's, I don't know. It's really fun to just have them alongside Shee Hulk in an MCU show now. It's like we've come a long way in the MCU. Yeah. And in the old old school comics uniform.

So it turns out that Leapfrog, maybe not such a good guy. He has kidnapped Luke to force him to make a fancy new AI Ironman-esque equipped costume. And Jen and Matt team up to go after him and his henchmen slash goons who will take Daredevil anywhere from half an hour to two and a half minutes to subdue depending on your math skills. And as you mentioned, the highlight of the goon fight, we get that taste of the classic Daredevil Corridor brawl, and we think we're about to get more. And then Jen comes Kool-Aid Manning in from the ceiling, just a clever nod and another misdirect from the creators of Shee Hulk. And then emotions are running high, and it's one night stand time. So Matt is leaving for New York to start his own series, but Jen is not going to let him get away without bringing him home and having a second Hulk smash of the evening.

So here we have a guy who understands her lifestyle, who isn't evaluating her based on her looks, which has to be refreshing for her after everything she's been through. But who happens to look damn good himself? So this is a perfect pilot cleanser after the romantic issues she's had with the first guy she hooks up with who is only interested in Shehulk, not Jen. And then, of course, Todd. And then Josh, who at this point, she doesn't know the full story there. She just thinks he ghosted her. But she's got to be pretty jaded by the dating experience. And she meets Daredevil.

She meets Matt Murdoch. Why would you not want to make something of this meeting before they go their separate ways? So there's chemistry here between these actors, and it totally makes sense that these characters would come together in this way. Yeah, I mean, just the walk of shame moment as he leaves. I thought it's very funny. Yeah. Like, I feel like there's probably, unless Luke messed something up with the shoes,

there's really no reason why he should logically carry it out. But it's perfect for comedy. Yeah. And, I mean, if you're in bed with Daredevil, you can't fake it because he hears everything. I mean, he senses your heart rate. The When Harry Met Sally's solution is not going to work on him. But there's no need for that because based on Jen's review with Nikki, no fakery required here. She is a satisfied partner.

And one note, though, for Luke, though, if he revises this costume because, you know, Matt is pretty popular with the ladies. He needs to be able to get out of this costume quickly in the heat of the moment. So there needs to be some sort of tear-off element. here, just so that the mood does not get spoiled by a slow undressing and a stuck zipper, because there's some difficulty there when she's trying to remove the costume. So just, you know, one little note for Luke to consider if he makes any tweaks to the design. So we get Nikki making Wolverine Clause with her makeup brushes. We get Jen referencing fridging and Red Hulk.

We got a lot of fourth wall breaking in this episode and some fun ones, just direct. acknowledging some of the speculation about who Hulk King could be. Could it be Scar? Is this leading to an introduction of Red Hulk? And then we get the gala to Jen's surprise because she thinks the episode is about to be over. But nope, there's more. Jen is set to receive her female Lawyer of the Year award, which may or may not be a legitimate award or just an excuse to get her to the ceremony. Her speech is interrupted by the intelligentsia who are claiming, that she stole her powers from her cousin. They're sharing the contents of her cloned phone, including a very invasive, illicit recording of her hookup with Josh. The incels are out in force at this ceremony. They're a quartet of them, it looks like. Filming the proceedings, and coincidentally or not,

Todd is also in attendance. So Jen is pushed beyond her limits here. She hulks out. She smashes the screen. She goes after the guy who seems to have projected this tape. And of course, the DODC goes after her, allowing him to escape. So she is the victim here. Yes, she smashed the screen, but she is the one whose personal belongings and whose privacy was stolen and projected publicly.

And they're not going after the intelligentsia. They're going after Jen. And they run away and escape. And in this last sort of sad, poignant shot, Jen looks into the camera again, just sort of silently breaking the fourth wall as she laments losing control and maybe suffers from the pain of being targeted and harassed in this way. So a lot happened here. We heard Jen ask if next episode is the finale. And I'm sorry to say, it is. I will miss the series.

And that means that there's probably going to be an unmasking. of sorts. So there has been some discussion. I was checking out the Ringervverse Reddit thread for last week's episode, and some people were proposing the idea of Blonsky being the big bad all along, which Miles and I didn't discuss because I think we want to think the best of Blonsky. We want to believe that he's really reformed and that the fishiness with the inhibitor malfunction was just a coincidence and not an excuse to get her up there and do something nefarious. So we want to believe that this is a good Blonsky who has turned over a new leaf, but it's true that there are some suggestions there

that something could be going on if you're conspiracy-minded. You have Titania in the mix, of course. People have proposed maybe the leader gets involved here, although that seems somewhat unlikely that he would get involved before his movie debut in Captain America coming up. And then you have Todd, of course. Plus, there's the mention of the Red Hulk,

which has a connection. with the intelligentsia in the comics. So might there be someone who is running the intelligentsia for their own aims, who is not actually seeking to take Jen down for the reasons that the people on this message board are but are using those people? Or is it someone who really does resent her for her power and just for being a woman and who she is? So you wrote a bit about that last week and the way that this series is using the trolls, the toxic fans, as a foyer. as an adversary here, again, in a clever and really prescient way. And then you have Todd, who I was all on board, team Todd as the bad guy here,

sort of a surprising one initially because he kind of came out of nowhere and we think he's just a bad date. But then he starts to pop up again like a bad apple and he shows up at the law firm. He plays such a prominent part in this episode that it actually made me doubt just because it almost seems like a plant. It's like an obvious misdirect or red herring. But then again, he has the vibranium spear, right? So is that Chekhov's Wakandan war spear?

I mean, is this going to come back and threaten Jen? So what are you thinking here about the identity of the whole king? Yeah, no, it's interesting you bring that up there at the end, too, with him just being such a big presence in this episode kind of throwing that off. I still kind of think it's going to be Todd. You know, he might not be a super villain on the level of Black Panther 2, but he could end up fitting more into the themes of this show and what they're, you know, trying to drive across throughout the whole season. I don't really see it being Titania just because it's such like a male-centric, you know, perspective in terms of the, you know, the toxicity of fandom and just intelligenceia in general just being essentially incels. So I don't really see it being Titania.

I think they just wanted to show her as more of like a pest throughout the series. And just, you know, somebody for her to occasionally fight. So I don't know. I think it's kind of boring to say, but I think it still will be taught. I don't know, like, especially with the throwaway line of Red Hulk. I can't imagine that Red Hulk's actually going to show up for next episode. It could be like Awesome Andy, which was something I wrote about. previously too because he's a character in Dan Slots comics in Dan Slots, She-Hulk Run,

and he's affiliated with intelligentsia in the comics, so it could be him. But yeah, otherwise, I don't know. I don't really see somebody like the leader coming up for the finale of a show like this, but I don't know. What do you think? Yeah, I mean, I'm still leaning toward Todd, I guess. It's just it kind of raised red flags for me just because it's, seemed almost too obvious that that could be the case here in this episode, that he was just

such a prominent part of it as opposed to just kind of lurking in the background where there'd be a big reveal. So that made me wonder because the show is always trying to just play a little slight a hand with us and make us look one way. And then it turns out to be something else and kind of mess with our expectations there. And Todd has just become a bigger part of the series such that it would not be a surprise. you know, when I first heard the Todd theory, I was like, oh, wow, Todd, I had not considered him, whereas now he just kind of seems like the leader in the clubhouse. But it would be satisfying. I think it would fit, as you said, with the themes of the season as a whole. You know, if there were to be someone just come completely out of left field, granted they could be manipulating the intelligents for their own aims and just, you know, using these resentments and channeling them towards their own desire to take, you. or to gain Hulk power for themselves.

So it could be someone who is just kind of playing along with that group and trying to blend it and use them. But it does seem like just, you know, going back to the very beginning where Jen is talking to Bruce and, you know, he's trying to coach her through being angry and not hulking out. And she's just like, that's my life as a woman in the world and in the workplace. Like I'm used to constantly controlling my anger and being slighted and facing. all of these affronts. And so that really set the tone for the season and the series as a whole, that yes, it is a fun show and a silly show and a lighthearted show, but it's also something that's, you know, trying to say something about the female experience here, which you and I are perhaps not the best qualified to talk about, but I think that we are picking up on the themes that

the season is laying down here. And so one would hope that the big reveal, whatever it is, will be connected in some way to that, as opposed to just serving the goals of the MCU as a whole, you know, trying to set up something for another season or another series or another project down the line. It would be nice if it felt like it was a unifying force that it was kind of consistent with what we've been watching and what we've been watching Jen rebel against and have to deal with from the start of the season. So it does still seem like things are probably headed that way. Yeah, and I think with just this final scene, I really just liked how this is kind of Jen's first Hulk moment.

And it's the first time that, you know, throughout the whole season, it's like everybody just kind of accepts her as being She-Hulk. And because she's so under control, it's like, you know, she can be on dating apps. She can go on the news and all these things. But for the first time in this scene when like, you know, everybody's just running away in fear and terror, it's like, this is the way. way that Hulk is always seen because of, you know, what's happened in previous movies. And it's the first time that Jen's going through something like this.

But it's also just because of her being a female superhero, too. I think that it's different in her case. And instead of going for intelligentsia, who is clearly just set up this whole situation and dated her into it, she's the one that's being vilified in the situation. And because she's finally lost the control that she's always had. So I think even more so than just whoever is going to be the big bad at the end, I'm very curious to see how they kind of play into that and kind of tie up the season and everything that they've been exploring with Jen's journey into becoming She-Hulk.

Yeah. And I feel like the series is firing on all cylinders at this point. I don't have the same kind of concern that I often do with Marvel series, especially the six episode seasons where you get to the penultimate episode. And like Jen, you start thinking, wait, next week is the finale? Hold on. How are they going to tie these things up? And they don't always in a very satisfying way. And sometimes things get a little rushed. Because there is more screen time to play with here, I have confidence, I think, that they've kind of brought this along.

They've laid the groundwork that next week they can tie this up in a satisfying way or set the stage for a season two, right? And so I don't have that kind of concern. I feel like there's a firm hand on the tiller here. And I'm looking forward to where it leads. So again, we've seen multiple incarnations and variations on the format here. We've seen very legal procedural style episodes. We've seen almost bottle episodes. We've seen very cameo and crossover-centric episodes.

And we've seen somewhere generally took center stage. And I think it's worked to some degree in each of those incarnations. And one of the pleasures of watching this series is that you don't know exactly what you're going to get from week to week. and it tends to be a pleasant surprise, whatever the revelation is. So I thought that this was kind of a blend of, I guess, as Jen said early in this episode, the best of both worlds, right? Where we got some strong Jen character development moments. We got her relationship with Daredevil,

but we also got the intrigue of Daredevil and the MCU implications of all of these crossovers and references and Easter eggs and just the joy of seeing that character people care about come back into this franchise. there's just a lot happening here. And it's all kind of working for me at this point. So I feel like the season is trending toward ending on a high note. And this was probably my favorite episode so far. I think episode four was a high point. I really like the last couple as well.

But I have no notes on this one. I think they did it. They pulled it off. They made us wait, but it was worth the wait. Yeah, no, I mean, I totally agree with you. I think the fourth and the eighth episodes have been the best. example of how they can really make this kind of show work. I think throughout the season, there have been some times where I've just like really

enjoyed one plot and the other one I've, you know, felt like kind of eh on. Like, I don't know. I think it was like maybe the fifth episode with a whole wedding plot. Yes. There are times where I'm just like, all right. But with this, it's like, I feel like everything's just working pretty well. And if they actually go forward with the second season, I think it's the type of show that could really exist well alongside the higher stakes movies and TV shows that are always happening

in the MCU because we're seeing, we know how many more projects are coming up in the next couple of years. So it's nice to have something that is just kind of fun to tune into and just have 30 minutes with a character that you enjoy. And like, you know, like Tatayama Maslani has been awesome throughout the whole season. So it's like, I'm definitely looking forward to how they wrap us up. And would you like this episode to be a sign of things to come when it comes to the tone of the Daredevil series, do you want it to be darker, grittier like the Netflix version was? Maybe you're limited in certain ways with what you can do on Disney Plus. Would you want this kind of lighthearted aspect to that series? Or are you hoping that when

Daredevil's on his own turf back in the mean streets of Hell's Kitchen where we record Ringervverse episodes, would you want it to be more of a happy medium, a middle ground between the Netflix tone and what we saw in this episode. Yeah, I think it's a great question. And that's something that I feel like I was a little conflicted about actually even just watching it. I really did enjoy Daredevil's inclusion in this. I thought it made sense. It didn't even just feel like he was just being injected for the sake of it to draw in viewers.

I thought it really worked well. In terms of his own series, I think there was always the question of how dark and just the way that it really stood out from the rest of, you know, Marvel Studios content at the time with Netflix. I think it's always been a question of how much, like how dark they can go, how, like, violent it can be now that it's under Disney. I don't know. I think it makes sense. Like he seems like a little bit powered up here. Like I think part of what was so fun about at least like the early parts of Daredevil is how like, you know, most of the time Daredevil early on, he's just getting beat up. You know, like, he's, he's fighting, like, you know, henchmen or goons, whatever,

whatever the case may be without powers. And, like, he's, you know, getting rocked a lot of the times, too. And, like, now it's, like, in the MCE, you can't, like, there's, there's too many aliens and other, other superpowered beings that are coming in. Yeah, it's hard for the street-level heroes out there. Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, it was, it was cool to see how, like, you know, acrobatic he was in this, even though it was a lot of CGI hope. So it'll be really interesting to see it. And the fact that it's an 18 episode season, I think,

for the first season of the Daredevil series. Like, I'm really curious the direction they take it and like how, I don't know, I thought it worked a lot better here than say, like, Kingpin worked in Hawkeye. I wasn't as much of a fan of how they used Kingpin there, even though the setup to all of it was really cool. But like when they're both back together, assuming that Kingpin didn't die and that

mock high finale, right? It's going to be interesting to see. And hopefully they're like prepared to get a little more violent, be a little bit more like a little darker in the ways that the Netflix series was really able to grow such a large audience so quickly.

And you know, the other thing I'll say, without spoiling too much of it for a werewolf by night, they get a little bit more violent, you know, in that series. So maybe there was. will be the space for that now on Disney Plus, even though it's under Disney. Yeah, I mean, we've seen some violence in Obi-Wan and Andor.

That's true, too. We're getting a little edgier out there. All right. Well, it is time for us to rip it and rip it. So let's take our traditional one-week recess, Daniel. Thank you for being this week's expert witness. It was great to talk to you again, and I will see your blinking cursor in a She-Hulk Google Doc later today. Thanks for having me, Ben.

Thank you to producer Jonathan Curtis. for letting us hang in his lily pad. Thanks to Arjuna Ramco Pahl for being the non-criminal mastermind of Ringervor scheduling. Please stay tuned to this feed for more Mal and Joe on Friday, Sunday, and Tuesday, Joe and Van on Saturday, Midnight Boys on Wednesday. And tentatively, if I can drop a little tease here, a special crossover event for the Shulk finale next week. Steve Jomey and I will unite for a Mint Edition slash Lindberg and Associates team up. Can't wait to cross those streams, but for now, I will leave you with the words of Jen Walters.

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