The Ringer-Verse - 'Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse' Deep Dive | House of R

Episode Date: June 5, 2023

It will be different this time. Joanna and Mal swing into the Spider-Verse and offer their deep dive for 'Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse' (05:17). They analyze the critical response and discuss what they thought of the rip-roaring sequel. Then, they go character by character and discuss the newest arcs, including Miles, Gwen, and many more (50:41). Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, media consumers. I'm Brian Curtis. And I'm David Shoemaker. We're the host of The Ringers Press Box podcast. Twice a week, we have a free-flowing conversation. We're two old, old friends talk about media and sports and a little politics. Plus interviews with guests like John Crackhauer and Jamel Hill, funny stuff like the overworked Twitter joke of the week. Join us every Monday and Friday on Spotify wherever you get your podcast.

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For years, I've been taking care of this little boy, making sure he is loved, that he feels like he belongs wherever he wants to be. He wants to go out into the world and do great big things. Not bad, kid. And what I worry about most... I love you, Maas. Is they won't look out for you like us. Want to get out of here?

Wherever you go from here, you have to promise to take care of that little boy for me. Make sure he never forgets where he came from. He never doubts that he's loved. And he never loves. Let's anyone tell him that he doesn't belong there. You got to promise, Miles. I promise. Into the ringerverse, your nexus podcast feed for all things fandom.

I'm Joanna Robinson. And joining me today as we prepared to traverse the arachno-humanoid polymultiverse. It's Valerie Rubin. Hi, Valerie. Joanna, hello. Just so thrilled to be here. with you where we can rejoice in the fact that our holes are not a curse. Wow, phrasing right at the top and I'm thrilled to hear it from you.

We are here today, of course, to speak about a very, very, very, very special film. Spider-Man Across the Spider-Verse, Part 1 of 2, a second installment in a trilogy. Before we get into that, quick programming reminders, Wednesday. the Midnight Boys, Boop-Boo, are doing a time travel draft that I'm really excited to listen to. I'm jealous that I'm not on that one. And then Friday, Mint Edition,

featuring the debut of our new team member, Jess Clemens, as long as well as the Mint Edition, boys, Steve Allman, and Jomey Dinner, and we'll talk about Transformer Rise of the Beast. And then next week, next Monday, we'll be back again to do something. They haven't quite nailed down yet. We had a plan.

We've decided to change that plan. Our new plan isn't set in stone yet, so I'm just going to leave you guessing. But we will be back. Miles Morales will return next year, and we will return next Monday with something for you. And then we're swiftly into Flash Territory. So that's what's going on in the Ring Reverse feed. Mallory, how do you suggest that folks keep track of all of the great content to come? Thanks for asking.

My first suggestion would be to follow the pod. Brilliant. Follow the Ring Reverse on Spotify or wherever. you get your podcasts. And of course, follow the ringerverse on our various social media feeds. The ringer versus on Twitter. The ringer versus on Instagram. The ringer versus on TikTok. You can get programming updates. You can see when pods are live. You can get some wonderful memes. And if you have thoughts, if you have theories, if you have questions, if you have Apple takes.

You could send your emails to the House of R at Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. Now it's time for your very aptly named friendly neighborhood spoiler warning.

We are spoiling. Guess what? All of Spider-Man ever. Movies. Video games. TV shows. And of course, comic books.

And of course, this movie, and it's the franchise it belongs to, all spider warnings are on the table. MCU also on the table. Anything else? Not the succession finale because Mallory hasn't seen it, so we will not be spoiling that.

But everything else. Recently returned from Europe still incredibly jet lagged. This is now the second podcast on the Ring or Verseware. You all can hear multiple hosts on one show talk about how jet lagged they are. Anything, Joe, that is touching that web of life. It's fair game today. It's sticky. Sticky, sticky web.

All right. Quick facts, of course. This is Spider-Man Across the Spider-Verse's second installment in this animated trilogy from Sony, directed by Kemp Powers, who you might know from his work on One Night in Miami and Soul. And his Knicks fandom, crucially. This is a ringer pod. And his next fandom. Thank you, Joanna.

Carry on. Joaquin dos Santos, who you might know from Avatar and Cora ever heard of them. And Justin K. Thompson, who was a production designer into the Spider-Verston and is crucially a long-time Lord and Miller guy going back to Cloudy, the chance of beatballs. So he got promoted to director on this and well done. Him written by Phil Lord, Chris Miller, and David Callahan, produced by Avi Arad, Amy Pascal, Lorde Miller. music by Daniel Pemberton returning with his glorious score from Into the Spider-Verse and a runtime of two hours and 20 minutes. Mallory Rubin, do you want to take us into the opening snapshot of how this particular

film landed with audiences this weekend? I'd be delighted to. Thanks. Let's do this one last time. Joanna, people love this movie, and who can blame them? It's fantastic. The opening weekend response is bountiful, joyful, effusive. This movie, of course, was supposed to come out a few years ago back in April of 2022,

delayed as many films and shows and projects were during the pandemic. Five years between films, it's been a minute since we have gone into the Spider-Verse. By the way, the namesake of this podcast feed, Ringerverse takes its name from Spider-Verse an homage to a franchise that we adore. And it was worth the wait. And that seemed to be the mass response. This movie crushed at the box office. We are recording on Monday morning.

Sometimes these figures change while we are recording and are updated in real time. But as of Monday morning, 208.6 mil worldwide. 120.5 million domestic. That is the second biggest opening of this calendar year, 2003 so far. This has earned nearly three times what Into the Spider-Verse did in 2018, which is remarkable.

And it's the third biggest opening day for a Spider-Man movie period behind No Way Homes, 121.9 and Spidey 3 is just astonishing to see Spidey 3 anywhere on a list of top things. 59.8. And of course, for an animated film, I mean, these numbers are incredible to memorize. or what, right? For an animated movie, and we love animated stories, so this is really exciting.

This is like atmospheric, stratospheric success. What is interesting about 2023, though, is that the top grossing film of the year is Super Mario Brothers, so it's animation at one and two. This just makes me super excited

for everybody deciding to catch up on clone moors and rebels before Soka comes out. Let's all mean fully in, to this shared animation moment that we are enjoying together. May I interest you in 200 plus episodes of Star Wars television before August. Please, join us. Definitely of time.

The water's warm. Should we talk about your old pal rotten tomatoes? Yeah. You know how I feel about raw tomatoes. Perfect metric. Perfect metric. No questions asked about rotten tomatoes. But, I mean, 95% critic score, 96% audience score, very rare these days to see those

things in lockstep. But, like, the general consensus seems to be people love this movie. Got an A cinema score. Cinema score is something I always like to look at for audience reactions because this is when they, like, ask you in the lobby what you thought of the movie rather than, like, the self-report of Rotten Tomatoes. So it got an A, and it puts it on par with Homecoming and far from home. But behind A-plus titles, like, No Way Home and Spider-Man into the Spider-iverse.

So just, like, one little dang down from A-plus in some people's eyes. But plenty of people are... Many people are saying. Is that because most people received that question 30 seconds after seeing it to be continued? Yeah. They're like flash across their screen. Maybe they had like 15 minutes to process. It would have been an A plus.

That's my guess. Overall impressions of Spider-Man across the Spider-Verse. I'm going to go first, Mallory. Please. You usually let me go first, but I'm going to go first this time anyway. Also, because I'm going to steal your line. Mal? Amazing.

I absolutely love this. film and like you know how hard it is for me to shut off my critical brain when I watch things and like doesn't mean I don't love them but I'm often have like a running critical commentary and there's something about these films both into the spider verse and across the spider verse where like it's not that I'm not thinking about them critically I am we're really about to talk about this for like multiple hours probably but um the joy the beauty the emotionality of seeing something like it's like watching a puzzle just like click satisfactorily into place.

We know how messy multiverse stories can be. We know how messy superhero IP can be. We know how messy superhero sequels can be. And so this, the intellectual satisfaction of very, very smart storytellers telling a story well. And then matching it beat for beat with just incredible emotional material. I have 10 out 10, like actually zero notes from me on this film. I loved it so much. Mallory, tell me how you felt.

I thought this movie was exquisite. I adored it. It was absolutely beautiful. I've seen it twice. I feel confident saying that by the time I leave this mortal coil, I will have seen this movie as many times as maybe any other movie in my life. life. It just feels like, and I feel that way about into the spider verse as well, and I feel very confident that we will feel that way about beyond when we have the privilege of seeing it

next spring, believe it or not. Allegedly. Hope so. The joy of watching this for the first time, the joy are ready of getting to revisit it and return to it. It's a world that I love to visit and spend time in. It is a world full of worlds. You know, I think that we talk a lot about when we see a movie or a show that feels like it hits that frequency that not only like elevates something about the art form, but really resonates with something that we hold like sacred as fans as people who spend a lot of our time caring deeply about certain characters, a certain canon. We will talk a lot about the idea of canon today.

A sliver of some sort of fictional universe. Like why do we choose to spend so much of our time in these places? And when something really pops and it hits and it rewards that impulse, you know, we talk a lot about the idea of like how it felt like a love letter. It felt like a love letter to us as fans. It felt like a love letter to comic books. It felt like a love letter to X, Y, Z. This was like the rare, and again, I feel this way about into the Spider-verse as well.

This was the rare thing that almost moved beyond that. It didn't just feel like a love letter. It's like if the love letter came to life and it wrapped us up in its arms and its paper arms and it cradled us, and it showed us that every single mark on that page could be a universe full of new possibility and that we could go anywhere and do anything and that anything was possible if we found people who cared about us and who we cared about. And it's just like the most beautiful thing. I feel like it's a love letter that wrapped us up and it's like paper arms and whispered to us.

I'm about to redefine your understanding of the word love. Like, you think you love something before? No, you ain't seen nothing yet. It's interesting when we talk about sequels. You know, there's always a chance, and often is the case, the sequel does not live up to your... Something I was, I think, I knew this was going to be good, but I think a concern I had,

and I think the men I boys talked about this little bit, is like, Into the Spiderverse was so good and so shockingly, refreshingly good. that we didn't have massively high... I mean, we had like maybe Lord and Miller expectations, or we saw the trailer, or we loved the Miles Morales comic books,

so we were like excited. But I don't think anyone can properly claim that they knew how good it was going to be. And a huge part of the joy of it was what a surprise was. Absolutely. So once you have those expectations set for a sequel, will it possibly live up, you know,

without that element of surprise to it? And I think the box off of this weekend speaks to that because, like, I think a lot of people discovered this into the Spider-Verse at home, right? They, like, heard good things about it. But then it, like, they watched it at home or won the Oscar and they want, you know, like people maybe who didn't consider Spider-Man movie was going to be for them. We're like, oh, one, oh, okay, you know. And so, like, then it's blows out the quadrants of, like, you know, who you think of as the audience for this movie. And so then, like, three times as many people or those of us who saw it twice, like, go see it in the opening weekend. And what this sequel does and what all good sequels do is both deep in our understanding of characters that we're already invested in.

So, like, in this case, I would say maybe I think the two most successful iterations of that are Gwen's world and her family and her story. And then as much as I love Miles and Miles is incredible in this movie and this is still in every way Miles's movie, I would say I really, really responded to what they did for Rio for his mother in this movie that just like really hooked into me. So deep in our understandings of characters we already met and then add new and exciting characters and interesting characters, you know, in this case, like Spider Cat. But like Spider Punk or Miguel O'Hara or whatever the case would be. And so I think this just hit it out of the park on both fronts in that regard in a way that

to me, didn't feel overstuffed or are imbalanced in any way. How do you feel about its ability to improve on or build upon into the Spider-iverse? A template. I mean,

flawless. You know, I think we'll talk a little bit today about how the increasingly vast sea of Spidey movies stacks up for each of us individually. And I'll tip my hand a tiny bit there to say like,

I think that into the spider versus the best superhero movie ever made, and I still feel that way after seeing this one. That is still my favorite. And for all the reasons that you just noted, like there's something about the way that it altered, like our DNA as moviegoers. That movie was the radioactive spider that bit us, right? And to have to follow that is like an really genuine,

I mean, it's a privilege, but it's like an unenviable task. Again, there's like a meta aspect to that, right? With the power and the responsibility. So we will not be the first podcast on this feed, on the Ringer podcast network, and certainly out in the wider media landscape to invoke Empire Strikes Back,

but like I think it's appropriate, right? And the creators have talked about that idea a lot too in their many interviews, all of which are worth consuming. Like, the first movie was very dark. and very heavy in a lot of ways, a lot of terribly sad if things happen in that film, but there is a call to adventure,

an origin story, an incredible amount of humor. I mean, rewatching into the Spider-Verse, like, I'm just cackling, like, a loon the entire time, selecting a bagel. I mean, that movie is hysterical. And there's, like,

there's plenty of comedy in, across the Spider-Verse as well, but it is just a different vibe and an energy. You have to tap in inside of this film to the Luke on Dagaba aspect of what it means to take that next step in your arc. And I think the thing that this movie does that, like, you know, we chat a lot on our various pods about what can multiversal storytelling do? Like, what possibilities does it afford the creators and the characters? And it's like, well, what if Luke wasn't the only one in the cave on Dagabaa? What if there were many caves, right?

A connection of caves. And every one of them had a Luke or another version of that character who was confronting something like that. And they got to see that about each other. It's just an incredible thing. I thought that like the storytelling and the themes and the tone felt like a very natural and beautiful and artful evolution. The evolution of the art, which like I know you want to talk about next, is just astonishing. Like there is, I mean, and the first movie is gobsmacking as well, but this is like the most beautiful thing I've ever seen in my life. I know sometimes in real time we get caught up in like the hyperbolic recency bias.

Joanna, I'm like, I just came back from Europe where I went to all these museums and saw all these famous works of arts. And I'm like, fuck Vincent Van Gogh. Should this movie be considered centuries from now the way that we talk about those fake things? I mean, I think it gave us, so, you know, something that the, you know, creators of all talked about is this idea of like, okay, in the first movie, all these different, differently drawn characters, you know, if you think, especially like Spider-Nois, Spider-Ham or Penny, like very different art styles, come to Miles's world. Now, Miles is going to other worlds, and so we are immersed in entire worlds of different art styles. and the fact that we were going to talk about Gwen in the opening a little bit more detail later, but like we start in Gwen's world and it is so breathtakingly beautiful that I was like genuinely gasping like the first few minutes.

I was just like blown away and exhilarated. I've consumed so many interviews by the creators that I could not tell you exactly like where I heard every single little thing. But like the phrase that they use over and over and over again when describing Gwen's world is this idea of like a mood ring. This idea of the world is mood ring. So it's this beautiful watercolor impressionistic sort of world, but that the colors change. Gwen's hair color changes, the environment around her changes based on her mood in a given

moment when she's drumming, when she's arguing with her dad, when she's sweeping in to save the day, whatever, you know, whatever the case may be. and the way in which they're able to tell story through that, my favorite example being the way that the cool tones turn to a warm hue, there are two hugs between Gwen and her dad, you know, one sort of even more connected than the first. But in both cases, the blue, gray, green tones blow out into warmth and light. And just the ability to tell that.

story through color alone. It's something I thought about. So, like, I'm not, I'm definitely not an animation expert, but for years in my old gig, like, when awards season, I'm going to roll around, just by default, I was, like, the animation person. And so every year I got to sort of more closely study the animated films that were nominated for the Oscars and also the short films. And, like, watching this movie almost felt like watching the animated short films, because

they are so wildly different in the movie. their styles. Or also, there are certain years in animated film nominations at the Oscars, like the year that it was like, there was a Lyca film, and West Anderson made Isle of Dogs and blah, blah, blah, and like each one was different and felt like a real exploration of what animation could do outside of the tightly contained box that is every Disney princess kind of looks the same, and every Pixar character kind of looks the same. Like, let's blow out what we can do with the art of animation, stop motion, et cetera, et cetera. And so that is the exhilaration I got from this.

And also it builds upon something that the first one did so well with like the stippling dots or the color bleed, the way in which the first film is a love letter to not just art, but comic book art, especially, wanting it to look like a comic book. And so when we started. in Gwen's world, and we not only get the, like, sort of drippy watercolor that is an homage to the Gwen Stacey comic books, but more intensive paneling than I think we get anywhere else in the film. And that paneling is meant to show a separation between Gwen and her bandmates or separation between Gwen and her dad. And, like, again, that it's just using the medium of, is this a film? It's cinema. It's art. But it is, like, also very consciously comic books. And that is something that I absolutely love because sometimes, you know, not the best versions, but some comic book movies can shy away from the comic book and want to tell like, oh, the grounded, gritty, this isn't a comic book sort of thing. And they're like, no, comic books rule. They're beautiful.

And that's the kind of art that we want to celebrate. Yeah, absolutely. That's one of the really magical things about it. Like I think that at any point in your life from here on, you could walk. pass a screen that somebody was watching and you would know they were watching this, right? There's something unmistakable about the visual palette of this film. And yet, to your point, it feels like universal, even though it is so specifically crafted by the hands who made this film, it feels like this universal embrace of the art form to which it owes so much. And like the number of artists and animators who worked on this movie, I mean, it's astonishing.

And one of the things that has been really cool to hear and to learn about is like the number of comic book artists who were brought in to either consult or to help craft a certain character, like learning that Rick Leonardi came on to work on Miguel or that Brian Stelfreys came on to work on Jessica Drew. the movie is made by people who care about the legacy of the characters but also the renderings. Like they're they're inseparable things, right? They're inextricable from each other. And to really like honor that properly is just a rare and special thing. And so like, you know, I love the way that Charles on both Big Pick and Midnight Boys, two great episodes, of course, talked about like how every, every world you visited, every character you were with, like you could feel that you were in, that. that the world had been pulled from the comics, like from those pages and put together. It made me think, obviously, this is at like a different scope and scale, but it made me think

a little bit of how, like, when the first season of Star Wars visions came out, it was really celebrated because you got to see all of the, like, how would each of these anime houses have put its specific visual sensibility onto a Star Wars story? And it was really fun to track, like, well, what was a, what ended up feeling like a little bit of a through line, right? Well, how many of the stories ended up being about Khyber crystals or whatever the case may be? But then the things that felt like utterly particular to the particular crafting hand, it's just like a really neat thing and the mashup of the different visuals. Like one of my favorite visual sequences in the film was the Da Vinci Paper Vulture in the Guggenheim.

Yes. Which I just thought was like hysterical and wonderful for so many different reasons, but was like my jaw was on the floor. and that is like the kind of just inventiveness and ingenuity that I think is elemental to the soul of this film franchise and then you like have that with something like you know spider punk a just delightful character a wonderful performance from Daniel Kalia excited to talk about spider punk more but the visual rendering was unbelievable and like that's a choice every single thing that happens on the screen

is a deliberate choice to make something feel distinct. And then when everything is distinct, how does it make sense together? Well, like, this is how, right? The care and the time and the thought that goes into it. And then, like, it's not just the things that look different, right? Like, I would say that one of the most beautiful visuals of the film is, like, the wide shot, the panoramic shot of Miles and Gwen hanging upside down from the Williamsburg Clark Power. Like, I would have that as a fucking wall-sized tapestry in my living room.

Like, it is just scale and scope and who are these people in the world that they're trying to inhabit and protect? Like, to be able to capture all of that while your frame rate changing a jacket and a guitar is just incredible. Yeah, the thing about the Hobie Spider-Punk's jacket being animated at different frame rate from the rest of his body. Amazing. Incredible. And that was a character who was compelling with a mask on and then, you know, is a. as Mal says, how are you even cooler with your mask off? But like the facial expressions, like I was just drawn to Hobie.

Like my eyes were drawn in scenes where he's just like standing there observing. They're drawn to Pave, right? To Spider-Man India. Like everything in Mumbaton is so distinct. And like the way that the spot visually evolves over the course of the film. As he absorbs the whole phrasing. Yeah. So something that Justin Thompson told IndyWire is that they use 17 new tools just for Spot.

And they wanted to have him like look like an inkwell had spilled on the page. So again, that's not only like a really cool conceptual every time that Spot is talking and like telling a story, whether it's his own backstory or like threatening Miles with what he's going to do, we get these like. angry scribbled, like, representations. But the fact that, again, we are engaging with the medium of comics, of like, what would happen to your comic book if you, the anchor, like, oops, spilled all of your ink across the page. Like, that's the calamity of making a comic, and that's a calamity of what happens to Miles and all these other worlds inside the, you know, the metatexual understanding of this story. A calamity, but also like the port, the idea of each of those holes or ink splots as a portal. You know, like that the idea of what somebody is putting on the page in a comic book that you held in your hands or that you get to watch come to life on the screen in this way can take you anywhere you want to go, like to take that larger idea of why we love art, of why we love comics, why we love stories, and like make it manifest, make it tangible and concrete.

in the villain and to like turn a character like that from, and I loved to, we'll talk about the spot a little bit more later, but like the way that the movie played with that idea and embraced the idea of like, let's take, how do we make a villain of the week go from a joke to the most terrifying thing possible? Well, it's the link between the characters, which we're looking forward to discussing. But it's also that, like the idea that the multiverse isn't just a plot device in the movie. It is like, it's physical, it's there.

It's in front of you. It's there to touch and feel and make your way through. I want to talk about the very specific way that both the film and into this betterverse use the multiverse, which you already alluded to a little bit in a second. But I do want to, before we get there, just pause a minute on Daniel Pemberton's score. Because again, another sort of virtue of a sequel is we already have emotional attachments to certain cues. And so there is this, it's not even the hero cue for Miles.

I don't know. I was re-listening to the into the Spider-Verst score. You first hear it on the track, Destiny, and then again on Mia Moore. And it's this like the slow, like, bassoon, gentle bassoon build. And you hear it often when Rio is talking to Miles, which I think is why it's on the track, Mia Moore. And it just absolutely squeezes my heart every time I hear it. And when it hit across the Spider-Verse, I was like, oh, I didn't even need, you didn't

you need to prime the pump for me on this. Like you hit that music cue and I am ready to lose it emotionally. And similarly, the prowler cue, which is so... Electric. Scary and cool in the first one. And then when it hits at the end of this as part of like, you know, the big twist at the end of this movie, it's just sort of like... It's thrilling that they got Pemberton back.

And then, of course, you know, outside of the score, the soundtrack, of Into the Spider-Verse where you've got Sunflower and what's a danger, which are so iconic to it. And it's like, how will we match that? Well, I think James Blake and Metro Women's Hummingbird, I might like it even more than those incredible tracks in the way that it's used. And I was looking at the lyrics between Sunflower.

Not Miles' like made up, like, version, but like the real lyrics. Like comparing those lyrics to Hummingbird and Hummingbird is just, Like, both of them are about, you know, being preoccupied by a girl, but, like, hummingbird is so tender and sweet and talking about, like, our time. It's our time. I know it. Like, it's just such a beautiful track. And I just, the care that is put into the music and the visuals is just, like, the gilding of the lily that is this, like, incredible, incredible emotional story. Yeah. I mean, it all works together. so harmoniously to help make the film, just such an immersive viewing experience. Like, it's interesting because when you were beautifully describing the color palette

and the watercolor paint, paint nature, and then that, that moitering aspect of Gwen's world, I was thinking, like, that's the way we typically describe how a score, like, triggers an emotional response. And so to give us that in so many different ways, like the auditory, the visual, of course, the expressions and things that the characters are actually doing and saying it's just it's a

symphony. It's a symphony all around us of and like it's that's hard then to not tip into sensory overload. I didn't feel that ever from the art style or the music. The only time I felt that was I literally just like couldn't read the comic font boxes that were popping up. I was like, I can't wait for this to come out on streaming so I can pause and read these all. They're just going away too quickly and there are too many of them. I can't wait to take you to the optometrist. No, wait, you didn't have this problem. They were like going away so quickly.

Like I could read, I probably got through like three quarters of the hammer space one. And then obviously some of them were intentionally more there as like little like all of the different spot jokes. Oh, I didn't catch all the spot jokes. Yeah, certainly not. Intentionally impossible to all get unless you're free streaming. But yeah, that and then I was one of the one of the many out in the world who just legitimately was like in a state of panic on my first viewing that I couldn't hear anything Gwen was saying and have since learned that this was a shared experience and I had a much easier time on my second viewing. But other than

that, I thought all of the music and it was just purely, purely additive and wonderful. Before we go fully into the Spider-verse and to the Multiverse, I wanted to still like pause quickly on the metaverse and talk about sort of like the way in which, and again, this is why this film works on so many different levels because it sort of tickles your brain on the larger conversations we're having around superhero or genre stories in general, right? Because we're in a very multiversal obsessive space, partially inspired by Into the Spider-Verse and its success five years ago. But when you have everything that's going on with the MCU and, you know, very specifically like Loki and Dr.

Strange and all that sort of stuff. Flashpoint, the Flashpoint story that is going to be at the center of the flash film that's coming out next week. And then the best picture winner Oscar film of the year, everything everywhere all at once, like the multiverse of Session is raging. And you would think that perhaps we would have a little bit of fatigue around it at this point, five years after, into the Spider-Verst did such a smashing job sort of introducing and then we've had so many other imitators.

And then so then we're like, oh, are we tired of it? But no, because it has this film. And Lord and Miller in general in the way that they think about story and tropes and genres, stuff like that has so much on its mind when it's thinking about what a multiversal story can say about the way in which we consume stories in general. You already mentioned that thing that we love to talk about, which is like what happens when you meet yourself, a version of yourself, and how that refractive. idea of a character can help you understand and drill down on what that kind of character can mean.

The way in which and allow me to flog one more Ringer podcast and say trial by content, show that I'm usually on but wasn't on this week, Dave Gonzalez, Neil Miller, and our pal Ben Lindberg did such an incredible job talking about all the Spider-Man films that have ever been. and they talked about this idea about because we have seen so many iterations in such short succession of Spider-Man, Toby and Andrew and Tom and, you know, Shemique as Miles Morales, etc.

And part of that, a major reason for that is a quirk of the Sony contract. The Sony has to constantly reboot this in order to maintain the rights from Marvel. So it is one of the most frantically rebooted properties that we have. Like, I think the closest competitor is Batman, and that still

doesn't even quite touch it, you know? And because it has been rebooted so many different times, it helps us try to figure out what we understand Spider-Man or Peter Parker or Miles Morales to be. But then what this film, of course,

very cleverly does is like, then ask us the question of how limiting is that? And should we put any borders around this at all? What do you think? I mean, I love a, I love a good multiverse tale. One of the, you know, I was really excited for the MCU to enter its multiverse era as you and listeners for this podcast, no, but even I, a sincere enthusiast,

have to acknowledge, like, the level of fatigue might be putting it. charitably, honestly, like active frustration that is set in among the fandom, not unreasonably, right? I think some of that has to do with the varying, like, degrees of success inside of individual properties, but also just the demand of what you are expected to track and consume, et cetera, right? This, much like everything everywhere all at once, which a movie I, like, adored, it was just such a refreshing, rejuvenating reminder of why this is a canvas that storytellers like to play on in the first place.

Like, what does it allow you to explore? And again, like every aspect of the movie, whether it's the visuals or the themes or the characters or the arcs, was really actively engaging with that. I'm excited to talk about the canon events idea. Really excited to talk about that. That tapped into one of the things that we enjoy discussing the most, this like battle between free will and destiny and how do they relate to each other. And I think it's like important for the world in which the stories take place to like look at that clearly and ask its characters, but also its audience, what it means if we always expect a story to go a certain way. and that they're like to embrace the fact that there can be a like a love of and a respect for

the heart of the spirit of it's a spider man story so like the strands of DNA of the world or the character yeah and also something new and different and like I don't want to jump the gun too much and talk about miles response to that limitation I'll save that for the mile section but like, what a remarkable way to show us what a worthy hero he is, like the fact that he pushes back against that, you know? So I just love that. And it makes me excited to be in the multiverse, in this universe more. It makes me hopeful that like this can be, again, an inspiration and not just like a,

okay, let's all go try to make our version of lost. And then we get a lot of really bad TV shows for five years. Or let's all go try to make our version of Spider-Verse and we get a lot of like pale The palpiters, yeah, yeah, yeah. So part of what makes this so good is that it's original. It's fresh. You have to try to do something fresh. You can't just try to imitate.

Right. And I think also it's, I don't know how intentionally, but I think intentionally because these are very smart people. Like engaging in some of the less attractive qualities of a fandom that gets kind of rigid about what a story, an X story has to be. Yes. you know, this isn't what Star Wars is. This isn't what, you know, Tolkien is.

This isn't what, you know, X, Y, Z is, and how that is portrayed as, you know, villainous or at least, you know, anti-heroic in this. So on the, on the theme of, like, what a multiversal story and specifically, like, what a Spider-verse or a Spider-Man? Multiversal story can do. I was reminded again and again of the best parts of No Way Home, where we get Tom McGuire, Andrew Garfield, and Tom Holland all talking about shared experiences, like the two

big moments, I would say, I mean, there's like funny, fun moments later when they're talking about their backs and stuff like that. But, like, you know, there's the initial rooftop meeting and then there's like the lab scene. Let's listen to In No Way Home That rooftop meeting And the way in which that underlines This thing we got from the very beginning

of into the Spider-Verse When Chris Pines, Peter Parker meets Miles Morales And they've got the squiggly lines of recognition And like, you're like me I thought I was the only one, right? Steve, will you play this for us? My uncle Ben was killed

It was my fault I'll ask Gwen My, um She was my MJ I couldn't save her I'm never gonna be able to forgive myself for that But I carried on and try to, um, try to keep going, try to keep being the, uh,

friendly neighborhood Spider-Man, because I know that's what she would have wanted, but at some point, I just, I stopped pulling my punches. I got rageful. I got bitter. I just don't want you to end up like, like me. It took me a long time to learn to get through that darkness. Why, I can still hear her voice in my head. Even after she was hurt,

She said to me that we did the right thing. She told me that was great power. Comes great responsibility. Wait, how do you know that? Uncle Ben said it. The day he died. Maybe she didn't die for nothing, Peter. I'm like literally crying because...

Very emotional. A fucking Andrew Garfield. But, I mean, No Way Home is... I feel, I have mixed feelings about that movie, but when it works and when it's the three... of them together. It works so well in this idea. As you know, I love that movie uncomplicatedly. I know.

I know. We did a whole podcast about it. People can listen to that. But like, the I look at any time I'm like, I'm conflicted about this maller's like, to be clear, I'm not. No, no, hardly.

I just love that movie. I think it's a great one. I think the stuff with the three Peters worked so well in that movie. And I think this idea of like, you're not alone, we've gone through shared trauma. Shared trauma has made us who we are is such an interesting, emotionally resonant concept in that film. And then what I love is that this, what this film does is like, okay, but also, what if I don't

want that trauma? Can I also be Spider-Man if I don't have that? And it doesn't take away from that scene in No Way Home, but it just complicates it and adds on top of it. You know what I mean? Yeah. I think it's like, I don't want to overstate things. This is like so brave.

But like I do think it's kind of bold and ambitious to, you couldn't have picked a better quote or better clip to play to kind of illustrate what they're building off of, but also responding to, right? Like that sound bite is something that like a lot of people went to the theater that December when No Way Home came out and fucking wept in their seats watching that.

Not only because it was such a beautiful moment and beautifully portrayed, but because it tapped into decades of shared experiences as Spider-Man fans. And like, you know, Spider-Man is obviously, it goes without saying, but just to say it,

one of, if not the most iconic characters and like the history of comic books, right? Like true, true, true pantheon character. And so people's attachment goes well beyond Toby McGuire, Andrew Garfield, Tom Holland, and like those recent live action films to decades of comic book consumption, etc. So to be able to like tap into that moment

and like the truth of it and the power of it and to understand and like recognize and I think appreciate the fact that like a big part of what makes these stories feel like they're part of that web of life, that spiderverse, is those recurring beats that are like familiar and feel inseparable from what we think of as a Spider-Man story, right? But also to like do what you're saying and interrogate, well, Joe, I'm going to mention devs, your favorite thing when I mentioned devs, like, or alluded to devs. But like that idea, like, do you have to ride along the tram line once you know, know what's there. Like, why should you? And also, of course, like, Miles, I'll just keep saying, has suffered a lot of loss and trauma already. Already. Yeah. Spider, any of the spider people in the story and in the various stories that we've consumed are ultimately going to be, like,

special and worthy for reasons beyond the pain that they have suffered, right? They're not all just going to be Allie and Yellow Jacket season one's finale, like out there talking about their trauma bond. So, but you also have to like, you have to value the fact that like seeing Uncle Ben or Aunt May or Uncle Aaron die is something that like has been a really meaningful thing, not only for the characters, but for the viewers and readers for a long time. That's a hard balance to strike. But does it does it make a character like, like Spider-Man, India, like any less of a Spider-Man that he has not experienced any trauma? He's like, it's super easy. This is easy and this is fun and I love it and look how great my hair is. also I don't have to work out in the morning. And like, that's wonderful too.

I don't have to try as cool, but I do anyway, you know? The other great thing about to your like metaverse and how was the multiverse explored in this movie point, like, that's worth saying is, it's just one of the things that was so cool about the movie is it's not just Miles considering other spider people. It's that he gets to meet another Miles, right? So he has a couple different ways into that, like, thing we used to love talking about with, like, Loki and Sylvie, right? What does it look like to confront a version of yourself?

That makes me so excited. for the third installment. Like, you wouldn't believe. Makes me excited for the third Air Jordan one drop that Nike's got planned. Because the origin stories were instantly iconic. Next chapter, wonderful. I have a pair. When Prouler, when Earth 42 Prallor walked out and we flashed to those Air Jordans,

I was like, put them off the sneakers app now. Every time I saw a single shoe, I thought about you in this movie. Wonderful. And we should say that in case folks did know, Dorel Jerome is voicing that other Miles, Miles G. Morales. And I kind of like that, that they're not having Schmeek more voice both of them, you know, because they haven't had the same actor voice all the Peters. So I just thought that was interesting.

One last thing before you and I are going to do a little ranking experiment. And I just like to bring this up because it's just like, it's such an interesting lesson for all Hollywood execs, studio heads, etc., etc. When Amy Pascal, who is the exact producer on this film and on all the Spider-Man films and Little Women and Amy is doing very well for herself. But once upon a time, she was ahead of Sony picture. She is no longer. And they were, Sony was like really struggling to try to keep up with EMCU, try to spin out their own IP. They were really struggling to make.

They were like, is it men in black? Is it Ghostbusters? Like, what is their IP? What do we have? 21 Jump Street? How far can we go? Like, blah, blah. Unlike right now when Sony is thriving,

cranking out those Morbius and Craven movies that Steve can't wait to see. You don't love the tale of Dr. Michael Morbius? That's not your favorite story that you've ever seen. Anyway. I'm sorry, Steve, I had to. Amy Pascal was complained in an email when she was talking about, like, what am I supposed to do, right? And she's like, according to the contract, right?

All I have is Spider-Man, his enemies, his relatives, his girlfriend. How am I supposed to build a whole universe out of that? And it's like, I mean, she did it, right? Like, I'm not trying to grind her face into it because, like, she's the one who did it. Like, she is the exact producer on these films, but it's like, you did it, Amy. This is how. Old takes exposed. For Amy.

For all of the studio execs out there who are thinking, how am I supposed to accomplish blank, I only have blank? keep thinking and keep pushing because this is what you can do with what's hilarious if you've ever read the Sony contract for Spider-Man which is hilarious and lengthy

we're going to talk about another aspect of it a little later on but the list of characters is so long there are so many Spider-Man villains it is bananas

and so for her to be like what am I supposed to do these 900 characters. And it's like, Amy, well, she figured it out. Anyway.

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that I wasn't on trial by content this week, I thought maybe you and I could do a quick check-in ranking of the 10 Spidey movies. Okay. You want to do them all? You want to do a top three, top five? What's on your heart? Full ten.

All right, take me through your list. Bottom or start at the bottom? I'm going to start at the bottom. The bottom for me is, Spider-Man 3. Yeah. Of course. Next, Amazing Spider-Man 2.

We have the same 10 and 9. Yeah. And I'm glad you agree because this is a fight that Neil had to fight by himself and trial by content. I'm just saying, House of ours with you, Neil. Spider-Man 3, absolutely at the bottom. Amazing Spider-Man 2. Then Amazing Spider-Man.

Yep. I'm with you so far. Then Spider-Man 2 controversially. Okay. I have that a little higher, but not as high as many people will probably be expecting. And then Spider-Man. and then far from home, no way home, homecoming, then across the Spider-Verse, and then into the Spider-Verse.

Okay. We have pretty similar lists. Yeah. Pretty similar. Yeah. I'll go top-bottom. I'm doing this off the dome because I'm always constantly... Well, my bottom three is the same as yours, so I'll only go through seven.

Into the Spider-Verse number one. I'm torn on... I think I'm going to put across the Spider-verse at... two. No Way Home at 3. Homecoming. F4. I guess I'll put Spidey 2 at 5, but more for its historical value. Historic merit than how much I enjoy returning to it, frankly, one of our more shared controversial takes, then far from home, then Spider-Man, and then we have the same bottom 3. Pretty close. These lists, sir, you know, they evolve in real time. I will say like, I think I believe that the movies should be assessed in a vacuum on their standalone merit,

particularly with a to be continued banner splashing across the screen, I think it'll be impossible for us not to assess the success of this movie in either direction does our desire feeling about a change after we see beyond. Like, will we feel even more highly about it? Will we feel less strongly about it? It's possible that a cross will hop above into the Spider-averse at some point. I'm not ready to put it there yet. I've watched into the Spider-Verse

and embarrassing amount of times. Like, I watched it this weekend, but like, did I have to? No, I can just close my eyes and play it. I've seen that movie so many times. Do I want you? It kills me. Immediately, like, I love that movie. So I've only seen a cross with Spider-Verce twice,

so it's going to need a few more times before I'm willing to consider it above into Spider-Verse. But that is where we are. Okay. I'm excited to hear your take later on the cliffhanger debate. You know, we're big dude. Dune heads over here. I was going to say.

Probably less thrown by it, but it's, it's been certainly a conversation point. So we'll have to discuss that. I suppose, but like, they called it part one. You know what I mean? And so, like, I don't feel like they changed it. Just like, did they change it?

Yeah, now it's just across the Spiderverse and then beyond the Spiderverse instead of across the spider verse part one. They should have called it part one. Yeah. It was Dune part one, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Give people like some warning.

Yeah. Though to your point about the. Empire Strikes Back comp, like, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't like Empire Strikes Back part one. And this has a very empire ending, you know? So like... Yeah, I think like the guys talked about this for a while on Midnight Boys Day. And I agree, even though I loved and I will say I enjoyed because I was like, oh my God, the movie's over now when I saw it for the first time.

Just because even though it's two hours and 16 minutes, I don't know, for me, it blew by. I'm like, that's half the length of a typical house of our recording. I've settled in. I'm ready for more. But when I saw it a second time and like the music is building, it's surging and you know you're about to see that flash, it landed even more impactfully for me. I do agree that there's a difference between a literal to be continued and the concluding, like this story has ended and we will pick up, you know, in the future with Luke Skywalker. and Han Solo and Leia, et cetera, or like, you know, the guys talked about two towers and, like, I think the question of like, what if the, Steve, your point of like, what if it just said

to be continued as Gandalf was surging down the hill? Like, I didn't feel that way about it, but I do understand if people bumped on that versus something that felt a little more truly, like, conclusive. I think that the timeframe of the next release will have some bearing on how people ultimately feel about that. Like, if it truly is next March, I don't know, that's just not that long to wait for like the next step and it builds a lot of anticipation.

I mean, I guess similarly, like, Infinity War, like, did people walk out of Infinity War being like, well, everyone's dust now? Like, you know what I mean? Yeah, like some of it is just the, it's almost like semantics, right? It's like, if Infinity War had splashed

to be continued, when people have been like, how dare they when obviously endgame is a continuation of that story? Like, you know, I think mileage may vary on whether people bumped on that. But it does seem like some people are. I will just say, no, definitely. Plenty of people did. And, like, I mean, I will say that I was,

I didn't see this at a press screening because we were out of the country. And so, like, I saw it with a Jedpop. And one of. Casp when that flashed. No one of our pals in my, in my screening, but one of one of our pals who's a film critic was, like, I was talking to me before I saw it, and he was like, oh, yeah, I forgot that it was just part one of two. And so, like, him saying that firmly reminded me that this is probably

going to end in the middle of something. Do you know what I mean? So, I guess that's true. And, like, I'm old enough to remember when Back to the Future, Part 2 and 3 came out in theaters. And it was very rare to do a 2B continued. Like, that was one of the earliest examples of To be continued. And I remember, like, the whole theater laughed and, like, lost their minds when the 2B continue came up. And so, yeah, I don't know. It was also, like, it felt like a, I mean, this is a compliment.

Like, it felt like a TV thing in a way that, like, even though this was such a vast and cinematic experience and, like, truly, you know, I'm rarely actually, like, you must see this on the biggest screen possible person. And I'm like, I must watch this at home in my pajamas person. But like, that aspect to be continued, the sequences, the movie just starting with, here's time with Gwen and her dad. Here's time with Miles and his family. Like, that felt like a television style approach as well. Like, these are like episodes with the characters in their homes before the action picks up.

And I thought that was ultimately, like, to its benefit. Yeah, I guess the ending with like everyone sort of walking into battle and our hero and dire circumstances does feel like the penalty episode of a, you know, a very exciting television show that are watching. And then next week we're going to find out how our heroes make it out of this one. All right, let's do what we do best, which is we're going to go a little bit like character by character through the movie. We're going to start with our main spiders. Let's do it. And as we learned into the Spider-Verse, anyone get rid of the mask. So let's start.

As you say, we start with Gwen Stacy, Spider-Woman in Chelsea, New York, Earth 65. This is, of course, Haley Steinfield returning as Gwen. And I love that the opening line of this movie is, let's do things differently this time so differently. And what we learn when you What you learn when you rewatch this film is how much this opening sequence with her on the drum is actually like a pre-cap of the entire movie because we get things that we've already seen

like Uncle Aaron dying, et cetera, et cetera. But there's a lot of stuff in the images that flash in this sequence where she's drumming that is the movie, like leading up to, you know, and talking about letting miles down and hurting people and all this thing that she's talking. talking about. She's talking about it's almost like a preamble to the very end of the movie when the drums

come back in and she's talking about putting her band together. The new band together. Do you think they'll also be called the Mary Janes or no? I think they should be. But I think it should be referred to their shoes. And I think they should all wear shiny little Mary Jane shoes. Gwen's moved on to the Aquac Chucks. And I have no notes.

Well, she wasn't wearing Mary Jane's at the first place. She's wearing ballet slippers, which I always really loved. but I love the chucks too. Much of the sequence, the drumming, and a lot of what she says here, is taken directly from the edge of the Spider-verse number two comic, where we first see Gwen and learn about her backstory, stuff like that. But I like that she starts with this, like,

urgent thesis of this installment or, like, quite possibly the next installment, which is, can she or any spider person escape their destiny of loss, heartache, and trauma. Let's do things differently this time, so differently. And what's funny is, like, what's fun is when you watch it, and, you know, we got used to the end to the Spider-Verst rhythm of, like, okay, let's do this one last time, you know what I mean?

And it's like, the intro, and she's like, let's do things differently this time. And it's just like a fun little interplay with it, and you think that that is just about that. We're going to intro things differently this time, but what it is is about this bigger idea of the story, which I love so much. Yeah, and that just connects to what we were talking about earlier,

nodding back and connecting so fully to the first film, but also building, evolving, growing. Like, when we think about canon events and the canon of this universe, does changing that always have to be thought of as like a break, or can it be an evolution, an update, like an amendment? And I also really enjoyed,

I mean, Gwen is ultimately the, is incredibly present and, you know, has a very high TRT across the entire film, but, like, is ultimately the bookend at the beginning and end of the story. And I think there's, like, almost an initial, oh, my God, like, the first person I'm with is not Miles moment as you sit down at the theater. But then you remember, well, we started with Chris Pine, Peter, who you already mentioned. And so I love that, too, as a structure because I think, like you're saying with that so differently, like unlocking something larger about the thesis and, like, the central preoccupation

of the story, one of, like, what it really is interested in examining and asking. And I think that structurally, they're achieving the same thing, right? Because Miles is, like, without question our central figure and our protagonist, but you can open the movie with different characters without diminishing that in any way. In fact, it helps to reinforce a lot of what they're examining because these questions of like, again, what do we share? What do we need to share? How are we the same? How are we different? And like for Miles and Gwen in particular, I mean, their bond is so beautiful and like so heart-wrenching in so many different ways and just lovely, they have a number of different lines across the film that we'll talk about the tap into this idea in some fashion,

either that they're sharing with each other or that they're sharing with other people alone. But that moment in Williamsburg, like that were the same. Miles is saying this to Gwen and then he kind of pauses, they look at each other in the ways that matter. Yeah. It's just such a lovely idea and to position them as characters in this like larger sea of figures who aren't necessarily thinking that way or have been told that they can't think that way. Now, yes, they're part of a spider society.

They are definitionally uniting in some fashion. but they're united almost in accepting some sort of limitation, right? Some sort of like confinement. And Miles and Gwen are, even though for Gwen, it's a journey across the film, right? That's not where we find her. We find her much to Miles and our eventual chagrin and despair not telling him the truth about everything, knowing just as Peter B. will learn does that he is this anomaly because of the Spider-42 bite. and not sharing that with him,

which is like a devastating thing, but ultimately, like, this bond that they share is just stronger than that. It's bigger than that. And, like, the other characters who stand there with Gwen at the end have chosen to believe that, too. Well, I think, you know,

in terms of we're the same, one of the strongest threads of sameness between the two of them and in both of their respective openings is this aching loneliness. Yes. Like, you know, two halves of a whole that are separated sort of thing. But I like how it stands in contrast to the fun zippy introductions we get for the various spider people,

where they would often finish their little opener with, I am the one and only Spider-Man, right? In contrast to Gwen's drum solo here, drum solo, her drum solo here where she says repeatedly, and he's not the only one, this happened to Miles and he's not the only one, right? And we already spoke about the visuals and, you know, the, the auditor, the music aspect of this. And you couple, like, the artistic visuals with the very cool and, like, jazzy drums that she is, that she is doing. Plus, the artistry of this opener, I have no proof as to who wrote this, but I know that it's a little bit more, like, complicated than Lord. Gordon Miller and Callahan wrote it, and then the directors are also writing the film as they go. And I'm wary of giving someone credit without knowing for certain that they wrote it, but like Camp Powers, who is a playwright who wrote one night in Miami.

Like, this almost sounds like beautiful spoken word sort of poetry the way that she's repeating phrases and the drumbeat behind her and the beautiful like art that comes with it. And again, it's just sort of like I'm watching art. And I just, I think it's so incredible. And then the fact that she says, you think you know the rest and you don't. And that's just like a fun way to start a movie. It's a fun flip of all those Spider-Man intros of Minton to the Spider-Verse of like, you know how this goes. I did this, I did that. And then I did that.

And these are all my like canon data points that I hit. I fell in love. I lost my Uncle Ben. Like, all these things happen to me. And she says, you think you know the rest you don't. Offering hope, you know, that she and Miles can change their destinies, you know? Can go beyond? The spider force, what did you say?

Can make two cakes so they can have it and eat it too? Who knows? I loved the cake a bit. But I love that her solitude is so different from Miles' is because she is actively rejecting people. Like, her bandmates are reaching out to her. And her dad, though, he fucks it up at the Guggenheim, obviously, but also is in his own way trying to reach out to her, like when she first walks in and he's wearing his Visions Academy

gymnastics sweatshirt, you know, and trying to talk to her. Like, these are people trying to connect with her, but she's so traumatized by losing her pewter. Right. And we get the story of the lizard, which we got a flash of into the Spider-Ver. So we get, like, a little bit more of the story. We get good,

Stooey himself, Jack Quaid, giving a very Stew-esque reasoning for taking a super serum, which is he just wants to be as strong as his girlfriend, right? And the revelation, the tragic revelation to her that he knew who she was, which he reveals to her only as he's dying, that he knew the whole of her, unlike anyone else. And now he's gone, and she's way too scared. to reach out and make that connection with anyone else. Absolutely devastating. You know, when she says to her dad elsewhere in the film,

I could do all these things, but I couldn't help the people out of the most. And they can only know half of who I am. I mean, that was one of the most emotionally impactful moments in the film. Absolutely heart-wrenching. And I think you're identifying something crucial, which is like that feels really true to Gwen. but it's a truth that she is like spinning into reality because of that fear, right?

Because of not wanting to feel that kind of pain or loss again. And I like the contrast you're drawing with Miles who is like, well, yeah, no, I have all these friends. You just don't don't know them. Like, Guanda, left town and Peter left town. And like, sure, you don't like that Genke calls you by your first names. But you've always liked him. And it's like, well, none of those people are actually really. president in his life in the way that he would want. And he's like longing for that companionship

to the point where he's just like, what can I do to get an invite to this spider society? How do I get a watch? And then what does he find waiting for him when he finally makes his way into the clubhouse that he thinks is like the holy grail of companionship, right? It's not what he thought it was at all. And like either of those extremes is almost too devastating to like contemplate. There has to be some truth in the middle, and it's like ultimately finding the people who, to that point of loneliness, I mean, I think again, that's like one of the reasons that so many people us included love Spider-Man as a character or Spider-Woman as a character, or Spider-Man, Andy, pick your spider person, you know?

Like, there's this, it's a very classic coming-of-age aspect to the character, right? And like, that's also something, we'll put a pin in that. and come back to that with Miguel is like a pretty interesting distinction between Miguel and like a typical Spidey origin story. That is really like worth parsing. Very few people, perhaps none who are watching this movie or reading a Spider-Man comic at any point in their lives can actually relate to what it is like, sadly, to be a superhero who has been bitten by a radioact of Spider and actually gained supernatural powers. But that sense of being a teenager who feels alone, who feels isolated, who has experienced. who is experiencing that like discomfort or pain or strangeness,

something unfamiliar and unmooring about like growing up and trying to find your sense of belonging, but then also the magic of changing and like discovering not just who you are, but who you can be calm and then finding the people who not just see you clearly, but like specifically see the thing that other people might make you feel bad about or different because of and say like,

that is why you're special. Like, that's just the most, that's like the heart of any story that we love. Yeah, and you're, that, that, it's like, it's a shame, uh, angle of like, if someone really knew all of me, right. There's no way they would love or accept me. You know what I mean? And maybe that's the only way for some of these people,

specifically like a Gwen or a Miles, to feel that way is to find someone who knows precisely the kind of isolation that they feel. I love the way that there's a shot at the beginning where Gwen is sneaking in and she sees her masked face, but she's not masked. And then later it's flipped. You know what it means? This bifurcated part of her personality. And also the way in which Gwen Stacey herself, like Miles Morales is obviously a very interesting. spider person in the way in which they were like, let's just, let's just reboot the whole Peter

Parker idea and do something very different. But Gwen Stacy specifically is, I think of this idea of canon as it relates to her is so interesting because I very, very specifically remember getting in a long argument with our friend Dave Gonzalez when Amazing Spider-Man 2 came out in 2014. And in all the trailers, Emma Stone is wearing a very similar outfit to the outfit that Gwen Stacy famously wears when she falls to her death in the comic books. And so Dave was like, oh, Emma Stone's going to die in this movie. And I was like, no fucking way are they killing Emma Stone. Her chemistry with Andrew Garfield is so good.

It would be so stupid of them. And he's like, but this is what Gwen Stacy does. She dies. Like, that's what she does in the canon, right? Like, Dave is, Dave is Miguel O'Hara. And he's like, that's her canon event. Gwen Stacy has to die. So that, and then, like, I, you know, we were in the heat of 2014 heat of, like, the

fridging conversation. And I was like, I reject this idea that the girlfriend has to die so that the hero can, like, figure out X, Y, Z. And we gotten this, like, huge, huge, huge argument about it. And then, of course, of course, she did die in, like, exactly the way that he said that she was going to. And I was like, I was so mad about it. And then in reaction almost, at the same time in the comic books, Spider-Gwen makes her debut.

And Spider-Gwen is almost this response to this horrible date with destiny that all Gwen Stacey's have, which is like, what if she's not the girlfriend who has to fall to her death to motivate? But like, what if the Peter dies in her world and she is the spider person instead? And like, what does that mean? And so it is like one of these, like, miles and me. Miguel and a few other, you know, Hobie, et cetera, et cetera, these non-Peter Parker Spider-Men are interesting spins on it. But Gwen seems more than anything else, a direct reaction to that idea of inescapable canon.

And how can we take this date with death, this date with destiny that looms over Gwen Stacey and give her a different story? And that's why I love that this very idea of being locked down. into canon and using Gwen Stacy or Spider-Gwen as a way into thinking about that story is so interesting to me. Yeah, I agree. And I think that the way that the movie does a couple things to really lean into that potential because it would be like, it's not clean, right?

It's not, it's quite messy and tangled for Gwen. Like that moment when they're sitting on the clock tower together and Gwen says to Miles, who's like, you know, looking over her, hopefully, you know, about today, except with a pinky tap instead of a shoulder touch in every other universe, Gwen Stacey falls for Spider-Man, and in every other universe it doesn't end well. Gwen has this knowledge, right? This is a version of, well, a cap. has to die.

Right. Sorry, Miles, but that's going to be your dad. And so we can't let you out because you'll try to stop it and you're not allowed to and you weren't supposed to save Captain Singh either.

And look at what you've done in the dark matter is about to consume Pab's entire reality as a result of you trying to do the thing that we're actually all supposed to do, which has helped people. So there's a version of it

where Gwen is like, well, in every other universe, but like, fuck it. Give me a kiss. I love you too. But that's not what she does. Like she's afraid. She's afraid to actually try to do the different thing.

And that's so much more interesting. And so how clever for the wording to be falls for Spider-Man. Anguish, Joanna, anguish. But also, like, when we were chatting a couple minutes ago about this shared bond that is built in part. heart on their like respective loneliness and feeling of isolation. I thought one of the most gutting moments of the movie because they each have their relationship with their, their parental figure, right?

And this question of like, can I show my full self like to my dad and Gwen's case to my parents, Miles case? What will they do once they see me in full? Will they accept who I am? Will they be proud of me? Will they be even more afraid for me than they already are? But also will they be mad at me? Because I lied.

And like, there's a version of the story where Gwen is just like, I did it. And it didn't go the way I wanted, but you should definitely still do it anyway. Because like, that's what heroes do. But that's not what she tells Miles. She says, don't do it. Yeah. Because she's so scarred by how that went for her. And like, I mean, that's, you, you expect in a certain kind of like archetypal story for that companion, that pal, that partner to be the one who says, just do the thing that you're afraid to do. But for them to each kind of be like in this like police system with each other where it's like, actually I'm really afraid of that too. And like I really wish I hadn't done that thing or hadn't had to confront what happened after is just this like really messy, beautiful real human thing.

I love when you're watching a film or reading a book and you're and various heroes disagree and you're actually not sure who's right. Oh. And we're so many times in this movie. We're pretty sure that Miles is right that his dad doesn't have to. die, but like, what if he's not? You know what I mean? And the thing that complicates it is not Miguel, who we just met and don't trust, because he's very tall and his cheekbones are very angular.

But Peter B. Parker, who we already know, is like, not always, right? Like, a trusted source. Yes. It says not always. And so we're like, oh, no. You know, and so, and we think Gwen is wrong. And we know she's wrong by the end in terms of like revealing yourself to your parent because eventually her dad does do the right thing, right?

But she's on her own learning arc as well. And that's what's so beautiful about the story. When Into the Spider-Verse first came out and it was such a smash-ola hit, Amy Pascal was like, well, the next film is going to be Gwen and Miles. And in fact, there was, I forget which year that comes. book came out. I want to say it was 2019, but there's the comic book with, like, Gwen and Miles like, smooching on the cover of a comic book, you know, it's sort of like this idea of Gwen and Miles and their romance, he's only 13 in the first. I feel like they've fucked around with the

age a little bit to make them closer an age in this film, and that's great. I love his growth spurt for him. But this is so much more of a two-hander than the first one was. And Gwen is on her own arc of discovery of her own leadership abilities to lead a band and her own ability to open herself up to connection in a way she closed herself off to when her Peter died. They're both so eager to impress each other but also other people. You have these kind of like back-to-back sequential moments where Miles is like, let me show you what I can do and how I can swing and all the moves I've learned. and Gwen can't wait to make Jessica proud of her.

Like, I'm learning all these amazing things from my new mentor. And then to watch the way the mentors also were constantly like, did I teach them that? I taught them that or I didn't teach them that. Or like, well, I'm just a terrible teacher. Like this, again, it's very much a web, right? Of like how they're learning from each other and how that can be like a little bit of a feedback loop if there's so much shared experience and shared context. but also like there's always a little bit that's different for each of them. And yeah, the Gwen Miles Bond is just really, really wonderful.

I adore them. I'm written for them. I would encourage Gwen and anyone else in the Spider-Verse to never again open a portal unannounced into the ceiling of a teenage boys' room. That's just a note for me to Gwen and everyone in the Spider-verse. You mean because she might stumble upon and their perfectly innocent notebook full of beautiful drawings of her. Yeah, that's what I meant.

That's like, yeah. Okay, cool. Bad baby. Bad baby, there it is. Season waiting for it. I was like, where's the bad baby? Oh, man, Joe, talking about relatable content. Quinn going through Miles' like merch cave and opening on these collectors.

Did you choke? It's just like, yes, this is like, this is the closest I've ever understood. to what it's like to be a superhero is like, don't fuck with my merch. Before we leave the sort of the Gwen-only section, we'll return to the Gwen-Miles a little bit. But, like, I just want to say that, like, I...

The way in which Spider-Man or Spider-People move through the world is so uniquely spidery, right? With the webs and the swinging and the, like, and the way that they can, like, draw their legs up and, like, bunch and, like, dart and it's so beautiful. And it is nowhere more beautiful, I think,

than in these Into the Spider-Verst movies. Because, like, you can kind of capture it on the page and you can kind of capture it with digital doubles in live action. But the way in which specifically, I would say, Gwen on her way to the Guggenheim, sort of, like, swoops through the city with her balletic point shoes and, like, everything. She's just, like, so graceful, so beautiful, so powerful.

And it's just like, I don't think there's any better way to capture the uniquely cool way in which this particular superhero most of the world than in these beautiful animated films. Like, it's so exhilarating. It's like watching choreography. And as you know, I love a coordinated dance sequence. So you think just to sum up that Gwen is more graceful than Ben Riley. Is that what you're saying? Perfect pose. You don't think he captures the gazelle-like.

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Miles Morales, Brooklyn, Earth, 1610. He says over the last year and four months, So to like return to this theme of loneliness, which you already talked about a bit beautifully with Miles, like this is how long he's been alone, right? And I do think like you talked about the way in which this, it's a reason why we respond to Spider-Man stories, especially because that loneliness of being a teenager. But what I think is interesting is if you think about the Tom Holland story, like we haven't really, until the very end of No Way Home, we haven't really had to watch Tom Holland as Spider-Man suffer alone. because, you know, from the very first moment we meet him, Tony Stark knows who he is, and then all the Avengers know who he is,

and then Happy Hogan knows who he is, and then Ned very quickly knows who he is, and then Michelle knows who he is. You know, it's like, he hasn't been skulking around secretly at the same degree that other spider boys have in other stories. And so this, and similarly, with Miles, when we met him into the Spider-Verse, like, he meets Peter Parker right away and then very quickly meets Peter B. Parker and Gwen and, like, all the sort of stuff

like that. So this extreme isolation is actually something, you know, we haven't been marinating in a spider on-screen spider story for a while. And the fact that even, like, a Genki, who is canonically, like, a companion of Miles Morales is like, I'm not your guy in the chair. Unbelievable. I just, this is not the time or the place to say this, but I simply must. To borrow someone's Air Jordans

without asking, I mean, at all, but without asking, is a violation that I can barely find the words to articulate. I am confident that you and I are not the same size shoe, but if we were and I were to do that, is that friendship over?

If you borrowed them without asking? Yeah. Like, a friendship with you, will never be over because you're so dear to me. But I would have to say, did you think this would be okay with me? And what does that tell me about what you know about me? It would be like when Adam bought me a Joe Flacco jersey. And I was like, do you not know who I am? Can we move forward in this relationship? I know exactly what you mean by that. But like, I think how did you Google Josh Allen after I, after I sent the text about Haley Steinfeld and Josh Allen. I was like, just a real ringer.

You sent a text about Haley Seinfeld dating Josh Allen. And I was like, because I don't recognize this guy's name, I bet you 100% he's an athlete. And then I googled it. Buffalo Bills is that right? That's right. Yeah. Quarterback of the Buffalo Bills. She can be taught.

Look at you. But here's the deal, Mallory. I have seen photos of your shoe closet. Yeah. I would never. I don't even want to go in there. I don't even want to look at photos of it. It seems too pristine and too private and too personal.

And I don't. Yeah. I wouldn't. Thank you. See? You see me clearly for who I am, and thus you would never steal a pair of my precious Air Jordans. Your point about the loneliness and how we've been away from that for a minute,

it was not something I had really thought about quite consciously or actively until you put it in our outline. And I was like really, it unlocked something for me about why I love the Holland, Peter and movies so much. that I recognize and acknowledge is like to some Spider-Man enthusiasts. Canon breaking. Yeah, but exactly.

So like this movie, because I mean, you know, we, there's a midnight court episode that everyone can catch up on where this core question of whether Peter's relationship to Tony Stark and proximity to the Avengers, etc., was like a feature or a bug.

I was on the feature side. End one. But this movie this movie and your point here unlocked something for me about I think why I appreciated that so much not only because it was fun to watch those characters together

but because like I like pushing up against that idea that Peter always has to be alone like why why why can't he be a part of something bigger you know and so like and even to your point about

into the Spider-iverse I mean Miles does quickly form those attachments. But when we first watch him making his way through visions, he's like, these are not my friends. Like, I don't, you know, I don't feel like I belong here. And so, of course, like, when we're with, we're in these scenes with him in Rio in this movie, and she's talking about this idea of like, yeah, belonging. Belonging. In any room you're in. Yeah, like people who will make you feel like you deserve to be there. There's obviously, like,

a larger meta quality there to the, the race. in class. Yes, like the bad fan response, the toxic response to some people had to Miles being Spider-Man in the first place. But what I love about into the Spider-Verse is like it's Miles is the one who feels lonely and isolated and Spider-Man has...

Finds the Friends. Friends and family, you know? And I think in that, you know, as with any sort of like Lord of Miller cartoon, the sequence of what Miles was up to, for the last year in four months is like funny, obviously, hilarious. Remarkable. But also, like, if you view to the lens of this is a literal kid who's 13 when we last, from 13 to 15, dealing with being a superhero by himself.

So, like, stuff that's funny, like, I endorse baby powder. Then I had to apologize for endorsing baby powder. I made another mistake. Like, it's funny, but it's, think about a kid doing that by himself without even his parents to, like, And without even a way to contact his mentor who gave him the baby powder advice in the first place. Thank you, Peter B. As usual.

Don't listen to Peter B. Parker, by the way. And I do love, so something that in one of the interviews that I saw with him, Kept Powers is talking about. I think it was with Cartoon Brew. The person who was interviewing him was like, hey, I'm a fan of your work as a playwright. For something like one night in Miami when you've got all your characters who are just like in a hotel room. room together for like the whole play, the whole movie. Like, how do you think about that in contrast to making such a wide, multiversal, sprawling story? And Kemp was like, well, actually, my favorite scene is in the guidance counselor office when it's just four people crammed in a room

together. And the big ideas that we're talking about, he's like, I actually spent a really long time on that part of the movie. And I think it's easy to dismiss it because there's like a lot of comedy and fun stuff going on. But there's also, of course, really clever, interesting groundwork being laid here about this idea of writing your own story because the guidance counselor, Miss Weber, as played by the great Rachel Dratch, you know, is to your point about the sort of the larger racial class questions around Miles Morales as a superhero. She's trying to paint the story of him as this, like, you know, struggling. having a story,

immigrant, you know, and Rio and Jeff are both pushing back on these things, you know? And I love that Miles says having a quote-un-un-code story at all seems gross. Like, all of that pushback on like, this is the only reason

why Miles is interesting because he's not white, because he comes from like this class, like blah, blah. And I love the pushback on that. And I love his point from the minute he walks in the room and makes that joke about

well, what if you have two cakes? You can't have your cake and in two. Well, what if you have your two cakes? That's his attitude to the whole. I can save everyone. I can save the world and my dad. I can have both cakes. I can write my own story.

And then he continues to give this speech about what he wants to do. Yeah. And I love how Rio and Jeff can read that as I want to go to Princeton to do these cool scientific things and expand. And what he's saying is, I want to do this so I can find Peter and one again, you know what I mean? And the fact that it works on those levels and they can understand at one level and he can push it on another. I do. I think there's so much in the scene that I'm really glad that Kemp Power took a long time on. What do you think? Oh, I thought the scene was wonderful. I mean, you have again, like the comedy of seeing the sequences in the

back and the autocorrects on the text messages, et cetera, just Jeff's response as Miles describing the quantum physics and like what he wants to do of Princeton. New Jersey is too far from New York. Like the scene is crackling with a lot of like rhythm and energy but the heart of it I mean this is one of the great through lines of the franchise

great expectations. What is the graffiti mural that Miles paints with Aaron down in the station where he eventually is bitten right? And so that idea of expectations. And like I know you you want to

talk about the parents more later. So I will just quickly mention this. We'll save the substance of it for when we get to Rio and Jeff in more detail. But like, Miles's parents are present in his life and care deeply about him

and want wonderful things for him. It's not like they don't want, they don't want him to succeed, but they have their version of it. And they have the view of his future that they have worked to position him to attain. And it's not that he's ungrateful.

for that, but he wants things for himself as any young person does. And so, like, ultimately, again, I think this is just one of the beautiful things about the story that even though we are not Spider people feels like so relatable to so many people watching, whoever the person is in your life,

who cares about you and who you care about, like, you can recognize that someone wants something good for you and it doesn't have to be the same thing that you want. And like both of those things can be true. And there could be a lot of tension in that, but also, like, if you're able to find a way to work through that together,

then it can become an even more meaningful and rewarding bond on the other side of it. And so the thing that Miles is grappling with is like, well, how? How do I push through? Will they accept me if I show them what I'm wearing on my chest?

And I loved like, when Miles goes to Earth 42 and tells Rio doesn't see that he's clearly not standing in his bedroom, that his mother has different colored eyes, etc., finally musters the courage to say, I'm Spider-Man, and she's like, I don't know who you're talking about. And we get the saddest little thwip-imaginable.

We got to, like, workshop it, and Miles got to try it out before it actually happened. And that's, I always love when stories are able to do that in a way that doesn't actually rob the eventual scene of any of its magnitude. On that, on that beat of expectations and what is looming around him, it feeds back into that idea of destiny. Like, they're not really hammering.

You know, when they talk about these candid events, this thing that, you know, you have to hit these specific marks to be a Spider-Man, right? They're not really talking about it in terms of destiny, but that is what it is. You already alluded to this. This is like a trope of the genre, right? Can you escape your destiny?

Can you embrace your destiny? When is destiny a burden? And I was just like, when I was really listening to the Daniel Pemberton score, listening for that theme that I love, so much. The fact that it comes off a track called Destiny and that Destiny track plays when Peter Parker, Chris Pines, Peter Parker is talking to Miles for the first time about who he is. And Peter says, I thought I was the only one. You're like me. Miles says, I don't want to be. Peter says, I don't think you have a choice, kiddo. Right? So like, from the beginning, Miles is chafing on this

destiny sort of expectations idea. But the musical cue that we get from it in the first film is this is an anointing, this is a passing of the torch moment. And the way it becomes a cage for him in this movie is such an interesting evolution of that idea that I really love. I cannot stress a dog. how much I loved this whole canon events aspect of the story. We come out of the first movie with this idea that anyone can wear the mask, right?

The Stanley Miles scene when he goes to get the costume, literally a costume, right, that you would wear for Halloween or to cosplay and isn't sure it's going to fit. And what does Stan say to him? It always fits eventually. And this question of predestination, like, you know, I, we've, we've, we've chatted about this a lot already,

but just like, I really felt, there were a lot of things watching the movie where I was like, felt like my, my breath taken away. Some of it was the visual splendor.

Some of it was just the heart of it. This was one of the things, this whole idea and examination, like Miles, I was about to say having the courage and it is courageous, but like it almost, it's almost more innate than that for him.

He's just like, I'm going to do my own thing and pushes back against this idea that things have to be set in stone that he should sit back and watch his father die like we come off

one of the one of the Spider-Man lines that I quote the most often and love the most is from Captain America's Civil War in that first Peter Tony scene when Peter whose origin we never saw in the MCU says to Tony

you know when you can do the thing that I can, but you don't, and then the bad things happen. They happen because of you. Yeah. And what would our relationship to Miles be? Now, of course, like the flip side of it is, well, yeah, Miguel is saying to him in very clear terms, it's one person against the whole world. And so, sure, we want the whole multiverse and all of the people in it to be okay.

but what would our relationship to Miles be if he said, I understand? And you have this against Miguel, like also very impactfully, I think saying and appealing to a lot of what we know to be true about the legacy of Spider-Man stories, being Spider-Man is a sacrifice. And in many ways it is. But should you have to make this sacrifice because someone told you that it always goes that way? Like, Miles deciding to challenge this accepted.

universal eternal truth about what it means to be, to put on that mask and to assume that mantle. Like, what more do we want out of a hero ever than that, than the willingness to say, I refuse to accept that that has to be the way it goes. Right. I just thought this was amazing.

Like, yeah, do you have to go to crime alley in order for there to be a Batman, right? You know, like, does Ben have to die? And, like, that is one of the things that the MCU Spider-Man that they were trying to avoid in the first, place is just like giving us the spider bite and Uncle Ben dying or whatever. Like it all happened, but it happened off screen, you know? And the, and the idea of O Miles Morales is like, well, yeah, there's spider bite, but like, does it have to happen at all? It's a defiant sort of stance.

It's very interesting. We talked a lot already about the Gwen and Miles love story, so I don't mean to belabor it. But I do. I think we actually even just recited all the lines that are in this clip, but I want to hear it anyway because it's so charming. So Steve, will you play Gwen and Miles please. You and me, it's... We're the same. In the important ways, you know? In every other universe, Gwen Stacy falls for Spider-Man. And in every other universe, it doesn't end well. Well, it's the first time for everything, right?

And there's that defiance, right? That like, it doesn't have to be that way for us. in this very teenage package of a boy who likes a girl, right? This is a star-crossed multiverse story, a story that we've been talking about a lot in our discussion of his dark materials and Will and Lyra, in spoilers for Doctor Who, in our discussion of Tannen and Rose and Dr. Who,

trapped on either sides of a barriers not supposed to cross in a multiverse. What a great genre trope. Maybe we'll do a trope's course about it. that someday. I don't know how many other examples there are of that. But he's so sweetly, romantically pining for her. The very sweet drawings he's made of her. The fact that he's kept the ticket from their bus trip in the first movie is like in his little journal. And then something and she has the, and she has the selfie. Like in her secret drum stash. Yeah. Yeah, with Peter B. Parker

passed out in the background. It's really sweet. Ironic. But like what I love of their little like Peter B. Let's call it a date, shall we? You want to get out of here? They're a little, like, date that they have. So good. Is she's more graceful than he is, right?

Zipping through. But, like, if you contrast the ease, he still fucks up and hits trucks and stuff like that, but you contrast the relative ease, which they're zipping through the city and threading the needle, etc., etc., to the absolute struggle bus odyssey of him trying to get to the, the guidance counselor meeting, trying to get the cakes back home, all that sort of stuff like that. Meanwhile, the cakes take a ride. It's easier together, right? And it's just sort of like that freedom, that soaring.

We haven't seen him soar. We've seen him flop about with a goose and a foam party and, like, falling through holes and, like, all this sort of phrasing, like, all this sort of shit. But, like, when she's there, it's absolutely beautiful. I love that we're the same in the ways that matter. Like, obviously they're very different. But I like this idea of a Gwen and a Miles finding each other in like a sea of Peters. There's so many Peters. But there's only a few mileses and there's only a few spider Gwen's.

You know what I mean? It's like they're very different in their own way. They get the iconic upside down. They don't kiss, but like him invisible hanging upside down right above her. And I love the upside down cityscape background of the Williamsburg Bank moment. Like them, as you already mentioned, them sitting upside down, her little ponytail hanging up in the air is like so beautiful. But the fact that the cityscape is upside down has to make us think of his very, you mentioned wanting their date as like a massive poster on your wall. I have a poster of Miles Morales's leap of faith, obviously, from the first movie because it's one of the most breathtaking image.

that has ever happened in a film. So to give us that upside-down cityscape, but the leap of faith for him this time is like trying to inch his little hand closer to her hand on the ledge of a Williamsburg building is just like, but that can feel as big to a teenager as jumping off of a roof, you know? Yeah, absolutely. Exactly. Climbing up to the top and flipping your webs to hang on.

Like, that's an easy thing for them, right? It's like making the thing that. next step and like risking that you might be hurt or rejected, that's the hard part. And like, I love how many moments with their relationship in this movie are again just like so utterly relatable, like everything with Hobie. And like Miles has his little. Oh, who's McGill? His hobby.

Yeah, the Hobie stuff was like amazing, right? Like, wait, what's a jumper? Wait, does that mean like you stay over? Like the jealousy, all of that stuff is so palpable and just truly like, teenage, but also eternal, of course. And then, like, I really love that you called out the, the swinging tour through the city, you know, while is Spider-Man grounded?

Because, like, that, in the sea of all of the relatable stuff, it's like, that is, that's just so specific to who they are and what they share. And, like, my, I think there were a lot of really beautiful lines in the movie, but I think my favorite, in terms of the Gwen Miles' relationship was maybe some things are just for us when Miles says that to her up top there. And it's like you feel it so much in that sequence.

And like that's the other side of that feeling of isolation and loneliness is like when you build something with somebody else inside of that, it can be the biggest thing in the world. Beautiful. Well, he's just an incredibly emotionally mature guy. I know what you say. So funny. Let us talk about Miguel O'Hara. Spider-Man, 2009, Nueva, York, Earth, 9, 28. And we'll be coming back to Prallar Miles in case anyone is wondering.

Of course. Yes. Miguel O'Hare, a.k.a. the Blue Panther, a.k. the Cape Blue Sater, a.k. Dark Garfield, aka Machia Lerre. Real piece of work, this guy. Miguel O'Hara, just some quick comics background, right, created by Peter David and Rick Leonardi. And it was introduced to the first non-white version of Spider-Man in a preview of June 1992's Amazing Spider-Man number 365. Received his own title in September of that year. I read in a fjord in Norway.

I read the original Miguel O'Hara comics. I had never read them before. The 90s. What a wild time in comics. Because let me just like, for folks who don't know, can I just please recap? origin story that is Miguel O'Hara because as you alluded to earlier, unlike most other, I can't speak for Peter Parked Carr, but I think for most other spider people, a hallmark, a canon aspect of Spider-Man is that this happens to them as teenagers, right?

These spider people oftentimes, I don't know about Spider-Ham, but like, you know, for the most part. Your body is changing. Yeah. You're slinging white stuff to go through him and you don't understand. Yeah, a very teenage tale. But Miguel O'Hara was a grown-ass adult, right? He was... He's working at Alchamax.

Alchamex, right? He's the head of the genetics department. And he was trying... This is 2099 in the future, and he's trying to create the original Spider-Man's power to give Alchamax genetically enhanced super soldiers. Now stop you if you've heard this before, but super soldiers...

He was oldest time. So he's like, maybe I shouldn't do this, right? So he tries to quit his job. And what happens next is 10% of him. tale is all this time. You know how you're trying to quit your job? Yeah. Yeah. And then your boss gets you hooked on drugs. Slips a Mickey into your farewell toast. And uh-oh, it's an instantly addictive drug known as a rapture. And the only person who makes it, by the way, is Alchemex. So, you're not going anywhere, Miguel O'Hara. You work for Alchemex because now you're hooked on trucks.

And it was 1992. What a time to be alive. And he like, he like goes home and, like, goes home and smacks the shit out of his, like, girlfriend, his fiance. It's like, it's a real 90s comic origin story. So what he does to try to combat the effects of, like to try to get himself unhooked from Rapture is he starts fucking around with science. And as you know, in comic books, when you start to fuck around with science, everything works out fine. So he makes himself his own test subject in trying to replicate Spider-Man's power. And during an experiment, oops, his DNA becomes 50% spider. Hey, when that happens.

Tale is all this time. So when you see him with his, like, talons and his fangs and everything, you see him and this and you see him ejecting himself with a drug in the shoulder that could be spider venom, but might be rapture, who knows? that's all part of his origin. Like, they're obviously, they gave him a completely different backstory in this film in terms of this like multiverse hopping thing that he does to try to, you know, connect with a daughter, et cetera, et cetera, reminded me a lot of the way that he was looking at his screens.

Reminded me a lot of Minority Report, by the way. But that animalistic is more spider than men now, like aside of Miguel O'Hara, that has to do with his original. original origin story. When refers to him as like a vampire. I mean, I think she's just kind of kidding. Well, you know, fangs and white sensitivity and yeah. Yes.

You know. It's tough. I have a question about 2099. Okay. What, like, do you think they're just sort of yada yoddying? Like, because in the Intent Spider-Verse post-credits, like, are we meant to think anything about time at all or just ignore that aspect of Miguel O'Hara? I think we're supposed to embrace that we're moving across space and time alike.

Oh. Yeah. And now Gwen and Miguel are the same. I'm sorry, Gwen and Miles are the same age. Not going to McGill. Oh, boy. I loved your description there. Your summation of the comics canon genuinely strivening.

I wish you could have seen my face as I was reading these. comics. You know, what's so interesting, what a setting to picture you in. The, I mean, there are a lot of things, obviously, that are interesting about that origin story, but it is, I think everyone listening or everyone who's read it will probably have thought, hey, this is much more reminiscent of a typical Spider-Man villain origin story than a Spider-Man hero origin story, fucking around in the lab and taking a dose of myself with a syrup. Now, as you noted with the rapture, he's responding to something someone has done to him. It's not that he's purely seeking power.

But that is very notable, especially given his deployment in this film, we're like, yes, the spot is villain in the movie. But, like, I would argue that Miguel is ultimately the prime villain or antagonist, at least in the story. In our notes, I have, we just come back to him in the villain section. You know what I mean? We can talk about that here. But, yeah, like, his origin is not that dissimilar from the spot.

his origin story is also very close to the Kingpin's story and motivation in the first film, right? Which I love because I loved it and into the Spider-Rust, I love it here, because even though we don't get quite as much context and information with Miguel, which I'm looking forward to getting more of and beyond and assume we will. But that's something that Miles understands and is pursuing himself too. I will not lose this family member. I won't, right? And so, like, for the villain and the hero or the antagonist and the hero to be, you know, on some level to,

and Miguel invokes that directly by saying, like, I've made this what he thinks is a mistake, right? I've made this mistake. Like, I know what happens when you fuck with the canon. But the fact that that thing can be a tie and that ultimately makes us, like, even as we're appalled by watching what Kingpin is doing with the Collider and the first film, and of course,

so are Vanessa and Richard when they see, which is, like, you know, just just, just hit. you with a kingpin-esque wallop. Like, I think that tie is important. They're not just, like, going after something that is, like, completely impossible for us to understand. They're trying to be with people that they love.

They're doing it in a terribleness-guided way, but that's ultimately what they're striving for. I also, and I haven't heard the filmmakers talk about this, but something I think is interesting is, like, the way, you know, they're trying to do sort of unique art-based design differences for our various characters. Hobie is like the most obvious example, but the way in which the spot is drawn like sort of an unfinished figure drawing where you're seeing sort of the lines,

the linework is still there, like as if the inker hasn't gotten to the design yet. Miguel has similar, like, specific design aspects where the line work is still, like, he's colored in, but The linework is still kind of there for his character. So I thought that was an interesting visual connection. I'm not saying he has a spot. That's not a conspiracy theory of mine. But, like, I think it is an intentional connection between these two villainous,

or at least a villainous and an antagonistic. You know, I think maybe it's more appropriate to put Miguel in the antagonist category than in the villain category. But the would-be hero who's lost his way. Yeah, for sure. He is so menacing in his physicality. You noted the cheekbones. Like there are certain shots where it looks like his face is almost like horribly scarred.

And then certain shots where it looks like it's more like shading and linework. If you go back to the vulture fight from the Gwen opening when Miguel and Jessica arrive in the first place, he's about to like eat vulture's face with his vampire spider fangs. It's shocking some of the violence. Well, and that's the other thing, right? is like, you know, not to go all Tywin Lannister like any man who needs to say he's king is no king, but like any man who needs to say

we are, we are, when challenged on whether he's the good guy isn't. And that is something that the movie repeatedly shows us clearly. I want to talk about some of that, like, we already touched on a little bit, but this idea of the canon, the canon restriction, and specifically Miguel telling Miles Morales, Miguel O'Hara, by the way, not a Peter Parker,

but Miguel O'Hara telling Miles Morales, you're not supposed to be here, right? In direct contrast to the thing that Rio told him, right? Which is they're going to, you know, you belong in any room that you're in. You belong there, right? He's like, you don't belong here. You're a mistake. You're an anomaly.

And not only does he say it, but Gwen and Peter B. sort of like half-heartedly agree as they're simultaneously. tried to climb a train. Anyway, the contrast between anyone can bear the mask and this is who Spider-Man has to be is interesting. And I think, again, on a meta-level, it made me think, again, of that Sony Spider-Man contract that came out publicly via the Sony hack

in 2015, I think it was. And a lot was made of some of the restrictions around what Spider-Man could be according to this Sony Marvel deal. So I just want to read some of the things, right? Mandatory Spider-Man character traits. Spider-Man, whether Peter Parker or an alternative Spider-Man character, must always strictly conform to the following mandatory character traits.

Does not torture, does not kill unless a defense of self or others, does not use foul language beyond PG-13, does not smoke tobacco, does not sell distributed illegal drugs, does not abuse alcohol, does not have sex before the age of 16, does not have sex with anyone under the age of 16, not a homosexual unless Marvel has portrayed that alter ego as a homosexual. And then Peter Parker character traits. His depiction of Peter Parker or his Spider-Man alter ego must conform to the following character traits. His full name is Peter Benjamin Parker. He is Caucasian and a heterosexual.

His parents became absent from his life during childhood. From the time his parents become absent, he is raised by Aunt May and Uncle Ben in New York City. He gains his powers while attending either middle school or college. He gains his powers from being bitten by a spider. He designs his first red and blue costume. The black costume is a symbiote and not designed by him. He is raised in a middle class household in Queens, New York. He attends or attends high school in Queens, New York,

and he attends or attended college in New York City, New York. So, definitely, and like, the live action rights are sort of different from the animated rights. It's a big part of, like, why what's going on in the animated Spider-Man films are different from what happens in live action, etc., etc., etc. But I remember so distinctly the kerfuffle on the internet when this came out of like Spider-Man has to be white and straight, like, was, you know, a horrible thing to read, to hear, to know. And all of these, again, it just feels like Miguel O'Hara standing there being like, this is going to have to happen and this is going to have to happen and this is going to have to happen in order for you to be. a legitimate Spider-Man. And I can't help but think that this, because this was a big thing when it came out,

I can't help but think that this was on their mind at least a little bit when they were putting together this story. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Let's talk about the multiverse and how much do you think that glowing white tree

looked like the sacred timeline from Loki? I mean, it was. It was. There were a few, obviously there are a lot of visual manifestations from other Spider-Man stories in this Spider-verse sequence, in this web. We get to see Andrew Garfield.

We get to see Toby. We see a lot of familiar moments from familiar scenes. Donald Glover is just there in live action. Uncle Aaron, that's the brawler. A couple of the specific calls to the MCU, though, and this had been a line in the trailer, but the Don't Get Me Started on Dr. Strange

and that little nerd back on Earth, 1-99-99-99. Like, to invoke the MCU directly in that way it felt like significant and the physical rendering of the multiverse as the exact same visual that we have now seen in multiple MCU properties

since we were at the Citadel at the end of time and the season one finale of Loki is just, in a way that I enjoy because I think that can be enough. It doesn't have to necessarily go beyond that, but to show that the, these stories are all part of the same fighter verse. It's so murky. Like legally, it's so murky.

And Lord and Miller are out there in the press being like, although it was just like a throwaway joke from us. Yeah, which like, of course, that's what they have to say. But like, also, if you're showing all of these other, and I know some, you know, some folks don't like the live action snippets. This is separate from the tree, but just at all, right? And that's also again completely, completely fine. Yeah, completely fine.

I enjoyed it. But to me, I was like, it wouldn't make sense not to see them because that's what we're exploring in that moment is the Spider-Verse, the connection across all of these notes in the canon. I think in a post-no-way home world, I think it does make sense to have those. And it sparingly used live-action moments. And I think especially like in a film where we had a full-length scene where we went to to spend time with Mrs. Jen in the Venom universe. But yes, sparingly used.

That wasn't a long scene. It was like five lines. They got some venom and gum. One of the, one of the Spider-Verse nodes, the Canada vets that we see is just venom stuff. That was the funniest Sony-specific thing in the entire film. The funniest Sony-specific thing is his Sony branded headphones that have prominent placement in both films. You have to just respect that, right? It's like, yeah.

You got to push the hardware. Of course. Yeah, I mean, I was fine with the live-action stuff. I don't think it should be used much more than it was used. Like, I thought the Donald Glover thing was, I thought it was funny. And I think that, especially in a world where we go to, like, the Lego universe, like, you can put the live-action universe in here briefly. It's fine. Wonderful.

The image of Spider-Pon. Thank you, Peter. You're one of our best. Oh, yeah. But the image of Spider-Pong Kobe being the one to bring Aaron down, the prowler down. the prowler down in like in like a real universe. I just want it in my head.

I don't want to actually see it, but like I just want that idea in my head that it was spider punk himself. All right, let's talk about Jessica Drew and this is like, okay, I lied. I said I had no notes. This is maybe like one minor note that I have for this film, right?

Issa Ray's Jessica Drew, Spider Woman, Earth 616, question mark. Is so cool. Like, effortlessly cool. Like, pregnant on a motorcycle, so cool. Doesn't wear a mask because yellow goggles is like very

distinct from other spider people because she doesn't wear a mask, et cetera. It shows up to be sort of the Peter B. Parker to Gwen Stacy, the mentor, et cetera, et cetera, is the one that urges Miguel to take her in, all the sort of stuff like that. I'm just not sure she feels like a fully sketched out character to me. Like she's got aspects, but she doesn't feel like a full character the way that Peter B. Parker felt like a full character when he met Miles and into the Spider-verse. And so it's possible that some of the stuff, like she alludes to her extremely hot husband. It's possible.

Incredible woman. He's super corny, but so hot. I love Ecerra so much. She's great. Wallace. No, and all of her, so hot. She's fantastic. Like, no notes on Issa.

But, like, I would just, like, a little bit more of, like, who Jessica Drew is. Yeah. I'm wondering. I agree because she's such an interesting character. I'm assuming and hoping that because of the split in the Spider Society faction, because of the band that Gwen forms to go help Miles at the end, that Jessica will have more time in beyond because she is one of the lieutenants who remain loyal to Miguel and like whether that will continue to be the case or she will also have a, well, question.

She doesn't. She doesn't, right? Because she pulls up outside. I think she knows that Gwen's in there and she kind of lets Gwen go. You know what I mean? So like she seems a way to interpret that as her. I thought I my less charitable read on that is that she's she knows Gwen's going to figure out where Miles is and she's tracking her. Just tracking Gwen. All right. Yeah. But like, so to your point though about like did we get it off, I really want to understand more about. Okay. Gwen thinks it's this incredibly meaningful. bond. And then Jessica's very willing to say, like, and she does warn her, right? Like, if you fuck up again, I can't help you. But then it's kind of shocking when she's actually like, well, I told you I couldn't help you. And I'm like, I want to know more about a character who makes that call. Like, that's a, that's a, that's a brutal decision to make. Now, there are a lot of brutal decisions for a lot of the characters, right? That's part of the dilemma they're always

facing. But like, and she, she says, too, there's that moment of like, well, you know, haven't you ever, I'm forgetting the exact phrasing, but like, haven't you ever cared about someone you weren't supposed to or, like, done a thing you weren't supposed to? She's like, I have, yeah. So, like, what was that for her? Will we learn? I think this is also, even though Miguel had much more time, like, also a little true for Miguel in the movie. Like, we get these glimpses, you know, this Miguel and this other earth died and I went and took over his life and I wanted to be with my family and then all of the characters in that world or all the people in that world were eliminated from existence. It's like, well, what happened to him that made him make that choice?

I'm sure we'll find out. But I do want to know more about both of them and their history. Sure. I just think that the fact that he gets to monologue about his backstory and his big choice he made and all this sort of stuff like that and the tragedy of it. Sure. And we get to see his whole flashback makes him substantially more fleshed out than her in this installment. But yeah. Even to go with the kingpin comp, like, I think that there can be a level of confidence when people are watching into the Spider-Verse that there's just a lot.

lot more familiarity with, like, Kingpin's history with his family and his family discovering what he's capable of and what he does and being appalled by it and how he then has to, like, grapple with that, et cetera. So did Miguel lose his, like, this is, we should say, like, the stuff with the kid is new. That's not part of his comics, can. It has new the film. So, like, does that mean he had a family that he lost? And then the other question we have, I mean. Does he just want a thing that he never had? Like, I don't want to skip too far. had, but like, we have questions about Peter B. Parker's involvement and all of this, and that is something that I feel certain has to be paid off in the third film, because, like, he's there

in that world. It starts to crumble, but I don't feel like that can be his world because his Mary Jane still exists, and, you know, I don't think that's a different Mary Jane. And so, like, why was he there? He's not, he's there in the flashback there. So, why is he there? What is he alluding to when, you know, when Miles says, we can figure it out where Spider-Man, whatever, and he's like, not always, right? You know, so there's some mystery for him as well. But that feels more like a tantalizing mystery and less like,

we forgot to make this character a whole character. But I'm really hopeful that in the third installment, we'll get more. I hope we get an entire Peter B franchise at some point. I love this Jake Johnson performance is so amazing. Phenomenal. He is just such a riot coming out in the bathroom

in slippers with his baby Bjorn, just simply exceptional. I absolutely love him. We've already talked about Pov, Spider-Man India, bit and Moomba. And is there anything else you want to say about that?

Incredible character. Incredible world. Love this. I thought that there was a lot of wonderful charm. and comedy. I loved the chite. The conversation,

would you ask for coffee, coffee with room for cream cream? That was really wonderful. And even though that was like a pretty quick sequence, it did give us such a sense of the place that Pav inhabits, like all of his community, of his relationships. And then I was really happy that he was in,

you know, other sequences in the film, including in the band at the end. And like, just really excited to spend more time with him in the future. just such a cool character incredible design

we also want to talk about Hobie Spider Punk we already talked about his design a bit but just some history of him right

so he's this is Olivia Copiel's design for Spider UK and it didn't really fit but Dan Slott liked the design

of the character so much that he's like let's just let's just make another guy Spider Punk um

There's also a story of Spider-Punk where he was originally a vigilante called The Prouler, ever heard of him lad, before he's put on the straight and arrow by Spider-Man. So there's like a hobie who was the Prouler, et cetera. But I love his whole very fun intro speech about playing shows, not being a role model, briefly a runway model, hate the AM, hate the people. PM as in the Prime Minister, hate labels, not a hero. To call yourself a hero is self-mythologizing narcissistic autocrat. And I just love that in a story about to conform or not conform, his whole thing is non-conformity. His very design is non-conformist. And I also love his like rocket raccoon-esque boosting of equipment all along the way so that he can make his own little goober later to pass on to.

Gwen. And even as he, and he had said to Miles, like, just make, you want to watch about, like, make your own. So we were primed for that. There was the conversation about, between him and Miles, like, well, maybe it was important before he pulled it off the wall. So they, they drew our attention to that and built toward that in a really nice way. I loved even just, like, again, the visuals of seeing no longer Captain Stacey hand over that boxed to Gwen. And it's like, it belongs in her hand because of their relationship and their history, but it couldn't look like less a part of that universe. That was just like a wonderful little moment.

And then the way that the portals, the tunnels that open from the watch he made look, it's just that was all really incredible and delightful. And like the little subtle organic in real time moments of like mentorship between Hobie and Miles, like his little asides. Yeah, your whole palm. And then that ends up being really important

when Miles breaks free. right? And like, that was all... But he's like, know what you're... Like, his little assizes they're walking in. He's like,

no, you're walking into. Like, I wouldn't be so excited. And then, of course, the, like, really adorable when May Day takes a crap and he's like, taking a shit on the establishment.

That's great. I still see you. Wonderful. Fantastic. Loved him. And, like, a really credible, you know, entry into a love triangle.

You know what I mean? Like, a credible threat to Miles. Absolutely. And even he's not necessarily having a ton of super... protracted heart-to-heart convos, but he does have that moment where he's like, oh, your parents are like in your life, you're going to have a hard time relating to everyone else here. And that was like another really interesting primer for what was to come.

And he calls Gwen Gwendy, which is like kind of cute. All right. In the villain category, we've already talked about Miguel. We don't need to talk about him. I don't want to spend too much time on The Fulcher because it's just like a funny gag. But, again, on the design front, great stuff from German Tocone in the voice. And the fact that his character is called Adriano Tumino instead of Adrian Tunes. So funny.

It's great. Let's talk about a spot. Jonathan Schwartzman. Fucking love Schwartzman. I love a Schwarzenman villain. Gives me Scott Pilgrim vibes. Loved it. Love that this is the bagel guy.

This is like a great little, like, tiny gag that we all, like, loved. Selecting a bagel. Legitimately one of my favorite moments in movie history. I'm obsessed with the moment in the very beginning of the ATM machine heist when he says I was actually considered handsome by scientist standards. That was wonderful as well. He's a very empathetic origin story, right? Like he, again, like so many Spider-Man villains, he is the result of a scientific experiment gone wrong.

But I thought it was so interesting because you and I have been talking about this taxonomy of Spider-Man villains. and how, so this very interesting idea of, like, Miles created him, he created Miles. And, like, historically, Spider-Man villains are, like, goblin, duck,awk, lizard, these results of a scientific experiment gone wrong, these mentor figures to Peter, people have soft spots for Peter, something has gone wrong. That's not quite what we're dealing with here. And in the Tom Holland films, as you and I have discussed, when we talked about No Way Home, in the first two installments in Homecoming and far from home,

the villains are like the fallout of Tony Stark's fuck-ups, vulture Mysterio, are the messes that Peter has to clean up, which I always thought was super interesting about those two installments. Yes. And then in No Way Home, we get the Rokes Gallery that's just sort of like the Peters through time and space and all of their, you know, ghosts coming home to root. But this is something like completely different, this idea of I created you, you created me.

I created you. Fairly common villain concept. Think about like Tony and Ultron. Reed Bridgers and Dr. Doom. My fault. Peter and Eddie Brock or Peter and Harry Osborne, Bruce and the Ridler, Luke and Kylo, Robert Brathian, sending an assassin to kill baby, DeNaris Targaryen, you know, etc., etc. She's a child, Robbins. But you created me is a much rare phenomenon.

And one of the only examples I could think of is the Joker, specifically Michael Keaton's Joker when you put The Joker in Crime Alley. And there's even a line from the 89 Batman, where Michael Keaton's Bruce Wayne Batman says to the Joker, I made you, but you made me first. So I love that the spot is trying, again, this like C-string, villain of the week, nobody comic book character that they have decided to elevate to this nemesis level in these films and the way he's trying to get Peter to acknowledge, I created you, you created me, this is special, we are the same you and I in the way in which the art will like

slam their faces together or superimpose Miles's face on onto the spot's face and stuff like that. I just think of this is such an interesting, complicated concept and the idea that like the only analog I can think of as Batman and the Joker, the two most iconic, like two sides of a coin sort of characters. What do you think of this positioning of the spot as the villain? Elite company there. I also really loved it. I mean, I couldn't help but think of the opening speech from Tony and Iron Man 3, your favorite movie in the history of the MCU. But that like we create our own demons. I know you do. We create our own demons, right? And how central that is to so many of these stories as you're observing,

but then like when you put a little twist on it, it lands even more firmly. You know, you mentioned Mysterio as like a distinction because of the Tony-fueled nature of that. But I was thinking of him as a comp as well in terms of just more structurally, like taking a character who had been in the background of something,

like learning about the barf, you know, impetus and everything with Quentin Beck was, that was a fun thing to think about, like these small moments in history that seems so insignificant that can become colossal and defining the design of the spot. Joanna, have you ever played the video game Portal? No, but I know.

It's wonderful. It's addictive. It's incredibly fun. It's interesting. It makes you think about spatial reasoning in a way that I found quite rewarding. The cake isn't real? The cake is a lie.

That's correct. The cake is a lie. Yeah. Yeah. See, good work. I kept thinking of Portal watching. the spot, of course. Just a fascinating character.

And like Miles thinking about, because, you know, to your point from earlier about like with destiny spinning, oh, my God, I get to, I get to embrace who I, this heroic mission, right? This destiny that awaits to then having to, like, rebel against that. This is really deftly connected to, like, thinking about the moments in your own life. and like what they have wrought. And so it's so comedically presented and staged it first. Where the spot is just like, like, you left in the middle of our fight and that was rude, which really made me laugh and was just so amusing. And Jason Schwartzman is the god.

But he means that, right? Like that hurt his feelings. It made him feel insignificant. It made him feel like he wasn't valued or seen. And in a very different way, Miles is having his version of that. So they're having this influence on each other beyond just the, I brought Spider-Man. I brought Spider-42 from Earth 42 into your universe

because of Kingpin's Collider and it bit you. And so now you're, and it wasn't supposed to. And so you shouldn't be Spider-Man like Miguel O'Hara is telling you. And this Earth now doesn't have a Spider-Man like it should, as Miguel is telling him. When the spots design warped across the film and in some ways, now I,

you said earlier, you're not an animator. This is where I will say I am not a animator. But in some ways I thought the design, like looked simpler in a fashion as it evolved,

like flatter in a way, almost like he was more as the dark matter as he explored and came to understand his holes and the power of his holes, Joanna.

And so, What a wonderful stretch in the film. The guy, like, construction workers is like, you can't stop talking about your holes. You're making all of this uncomfortable. Igonic. But when he kind of becomes that dark matter incarnate, and it looked to me,

it made me think of Miles', again, that expectations graffiti mural from the first and that like silhouette of himself that is right there at the center of it. And it's like, they kind of visually, they visually call upon each other. Yes, correct. Like these shapes, right?

Yes. What can you do with the shape? Like, what can it mean? Well, it can be an absence, right? But it can also be something that you fill with purpose, with intention, with achievement, maybe with mistakes. So I really like this. I felt that the spot,

I adored the movie, I did miss the spot a little bit in the third act of the film. But I feel like, this will be so present in beyond, at least initially, that it's okay. But then again, I don't know. Maybe I don't think that because I just feel like Miguel's going to be the real. Yeah. Well, I don't want to underestimate the spot because that was Miguel's, that was Miles's mistake

in the first place. But like, I, uh, I, I, I think that, um, there's a little bit of red herring villainy there for him. I thought it was really interesting Kemp Power is an interview with discussing film. He was like, he had this quote about the stakes

of this conflict, right? And he says, when every film has world destroying stakes, how do you differentiate yourself? How about the stakes being colon, I just need to save my dad? And I really love that because we talk sometimes about like the escalation of

what is the world ending event this? this time. How do we top Thanos now, like, snapping out, you know, the population? And it's like, what if we bring it all the way back down? This is a street-level, friendly neighborhood Spider-Man, you know? So let's go ahead. That's the other thing about that Gwen and Miles shot. It's like, that is the thing that are trying to protect. You can see it on your screen. To that end, I do want to talk about the spider parents. And it's very specifically on that front. I was thinking about, like, very specifically the party that they're having for Jeff's promotion, right? And when Gwen thinks she's leaving Miles forever, and then when Miles follows her, maybe not knowing when or if he can return, they both are looking at that party.

And it reminded me of what we talk about when we talk about franchising wanting, rich franchises wanting to make sure that, uh, you, understand what's being protected, was being defended. You already alluded, I'm so excited to talk about all the parents in this movie, right? Because we've got Jess his pregnant, Miguel, and his, you know, multiversal daughter, Peter B. Parker, new parent. And then, of course, we've got. Peter B. Parker as a father of a daughter and the son of a mother? I wouldn't. I just wouldn't.

I should have. Peter B. And then, of course, Miles is parents. and Gwen's dad. And like the parental stuff is so strong in this movie. And what you already alluded to is this moment when Hobie is like, oh, you've got parents, right? So a canonical aspect of most Peter Parker's most Spider-Man is, according to that Sony contract, your parents are gone from the time they're very young and they're in the custody of Aunt May, Uncle Ben.

and Uncle Ben usually not around for very long and Aunt May with love and respect and I respect all alternative families and all parents are parents and I support that but I thought Ken Powers put it really beautifully in an interview with Cartoon Brew where he was like, Jeff and Rio or helicopter parents and one of them is a cop

versus Aunt May who was quote unquote not the most observant person, right? So this difference, what does it mean to be a spider person with actively involved parents? Something that, you know, honestly with love and respect to all the Mays, Maybe Aunt Tomé, as Ben Lindberg called her, Marissa Tomé, like, is a bit more involved, but not, like, not in the degree that Jeff and Rio are.

So it's just like a very different prospect. And I love that Ken Powers in this interview with discussing film. He's like, we wanted to make a coming-of-age story for both the kids and for the parents. Because when a kid comes of age, a parent also has to come of age in a very different way. There is a massive thing you go through as a parent when you go from raising an adolescent. to a young adult. And that takes us to Rio Morales and that speech we heard

at the top of the episode. The moment, for me, honestly, of the movie. Like, it stunned me the first time and the second time I openly wept through it when she's talking to Miles about how he was just her little boy

just a moment ago and how he now has to parent himself because she can't follow him everywhere that he's going to go and she's worried that the whole world won't love and support him the way that his people do, I just lost it at this moment. I thought it was incredible. And it's just this important reiteration.

He never lets anyone at those big, fancy places he's going to be to tell him that he doesn't belong there. And when he comes home and he better come home, you're going to be early. You're going to be holding a normal, nice case. And then she says, just don't get lost. And of course, what does he do? He gets lost. in the wrong universe.

But it's this really important, loving parental reiteration of the first film's message that anyone can wear the mask, right? Then in the face of a number of people telling him that he doesn't belong on the team in another universe, is Spider-Man at all? Rio's message stiffens his spine and allows him to have that defiant, you can't tell, no, I'm going to do my own thing. You can't tell me who I am. And again, that is something that he has, that these other Peter,

don't have because with great power comes great responsibility is a fine enough message. I'm not knocking this very important, canonically important Spider-Man message, but I don't know that it holds a candle to this speech from Rio Morales that I think we all wished we had from our parents at one point or another. How do you feel about the way Rio is used in this film, Meliervin? Beautiful, absolutely beautiful. And I liked that we got to see a different Rio and a different Earth and what was, what was the same, what was distinct,

but that conversation between Rio and Miles and the heart and substance of what she is telling him and the belief in the hope, but also the fear and the fear that Miles has that he will let them down

paired with the really like fervently held desire that he has to go do the thing that he wants. And then Jeff is, you know, very much a part of this too. We'll talk about him in a minute. but like, hearing him say, like, I just figured out how to do this. And then, like, he went and changed and now I have to figure it all out again.

I love the way that the Rio and Jeff stories are working in parallel with Miles. Like, they're all on a journey of evolution and discovery and having to confront, like, how to best love someone and the way that is right for them. and not for you. And like that that is maybe the hardest thing you ever have to do for somebody you really care about, you know? And like, I thought that, you know, to the larger point,

or your observation you're making about how distinct this particular, like, family unit is in the larger canon and how this, of course, connects to the canon events examination side of the movie. Like, the thing I kept thinking about watching it is like, well, what do we see about Miles already.

He is Spider-Man, and that's true, and he became a hero. He's still learning. He's still growing. Every Spider-Man is, every Spider-Man is. Every spider person is, right? I'm sure Spider-Noir has things to learn still and things that he can do a better job of if he tried. But, like, having those people in his life didn't prevent Miles from being a worthy hero who wanted to help other people and who earned our love, right? At all. And so, like, why should that have to change? Right.

And I love that, like, you know, because there's, again, the kind of, like, quintessential teenage stubbornness of, like, I know what is best and I know what is right and I know who I am. And there's, to your point earlier about, like, not knowing sometimes in scenes which character you're aligned with. Like, when Miles is saying these things and he's like, when he's in his Spider-Man get up talking to Jeff and Jeff. Of course, doesn't know that he's talking to his own son. And I was like, he just got, I'm sorry, I'm mixing Jeff and Rio. Yeah, no, no. No, no. You know, the, the moment when my house is like, like, you just got to let them spread his wings, man. Spread his wings. And it was so, it hit me so hard that like Miles without the mascot couldn't say that to Jeff. You know, it's like the whatever and the fight on the rooftop and the tension. Like, they have breakthroughs with each other, sure. But there's the worry that you're going to disappoint somebody who, on some level, you're, you're going to disappoint somebody who, on some level, you're. you're frustrated with like how they're like cramping your style.

But on the other hand, you know truly wants what is what is best for you. And like I just, I don't know. I really loved all of that. And then of course, like when we're on Earth 42 and we see that there is no Jeff there, right? Aaron is alive, but Jeff is gone. And like, what is that for smiles to confront and think about? Like this was just all, I mean, this could have been the entire movie. This is just one piece of like a.

vast tale. But Rio, Rio and Jeff are like, of all the different family units that we glimpse. You know, there's a lot of Captain Stacy. There's a lot of Mayday. But Rio and Jeff are like central, central, central figures in this story. Yeah. And again, we need to be reminded of like, what's at stake here? What is it, you know, what is Miles fighting to protect? And so we need to have Jeff present enough that we really care outside of vaguely caring whether or not a person's Dad's supervisors, of course, we vaguely care, but to, like, know how special the Jeff Miles thing is and not just special, but, like, how they have,

they have, no pun intended, Miles to go in their relationship that we want to see them traverse, right? Like, Miles can say things with the mask onto his dad that he can't say with the mask off, because in part it has to do with him, but also in part it has to do with what Jeff can hear and from whom he could hear it. And, like, as Rio says, like, it's so hard.

hard for them to think of him as not their little boy, right? Yeah, he's 15. He's not an adult. He has a lot to learn in ways to go. But Jeff is able to hear Spider-Man say certain things and repeat those things later to Rio, let him spread his wings, that he wouldn't be able to hear from Miles. You know what he mean? So, like, it's comedy for Miles to adopt that lower tone of voice when he's wearing the mask and talking to his dad. but it's also true that, like, his dad is taking him seriously as an equal to a certain extent

in a way that he can't to his own son. And I think that also when you pair that scene that you think you're getting pretty good at being a parent, you think you got it licked and then they grow up and I just want to lose, don't want him to lose him. You pair that. By the way, on the backdrop of the beautiful shimmering roof of the ruined Alchemex building, like beautiful stages yeah you pair that with what rio says about parenting yourself and we get this like bigger picture idea of what it means to parent yourself or what it means for the child to parent the parent uh uh an evolution we all go through at some point in our lives um if we're lucky

and like um i think that feeds then back into that a multiversal idea of when you have someone like Peter B. Parker show up to advise Miles Morales. Or when you have Toby McGuire and Andrew Garfield talking to Tom Holland and a roof and say, I just don't want you to turn out like me, that's the Spider-Man parenting his inner child of a Spider-Man, right? What did I need to hear when I was freshly Spider-Man and trying to figure this out, freshly bitten? What did I need? And we get to watch Peter B. Parker do that. We get to watch Andrew Garfield and Tom.

And Toby McGuire do that. And to go back to that Miguel O'Hara point, Miguel does not have that context of having been a teen and bitten because he was drugged with rapture and experimented on himself as a grown-ass adult. So he doesn't have that inner spider boy that needs nurturing, you know? And also, and perhaps because of that, perhaps because of other reasons, he does not seem capable of or interested in providing that.

Exactly. Yeah. Like the Lego moment, like, thanks Peter, you're one of our best is, is funny, but it actually stands out because it's like a very,

very rare moment when we hear Miguel say anything, anything kind to somebody. And so the only thing that he is giving miles is instruction, right? It's limitation. It's a wall that you can't push beyond. Yeah, and rejection, right.

And, like, it's the, it's the exact thing that Rio was, was warning him against. And, again, in the context of the exact place he was trying to reach and thought he would find this ultimate sense of belonging, like, what a devastating thing to actually meet on the other end. I want to shout out. Luna Lauren Belles, who plays Rio. I think it's really interesting because, like, Rio has such a smaller role in the first film. And I think you can tell, by the way, the role is cast because, like, she is one of the smaller names of all the, like main character, voice actors. She's done great live action work.

She's an incredible actress. But like she's, you know, they didn't get like a name name for this role. And I think Marshall Aude is Uncle Aaron. Yeah, that's right. Like two-time Oscar winner, Marishola Ali is here, you know. Well, one time Oscar winner, Daniel Kalu is here. You know, Oscar nominee, Brian Tyree Henry's here, like, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But they just grew the character because they were interested in that character.

They didn't, you know, they shrunk. Mary Jane now to nothing, and so Zoe Cravis is like, yeah, I'm not going to come back to do that. You can get someone else to do four lines for Mary Jane. That's not going to be me. Let's talk about George Stacey, Shea Wiggum, who I think was another huge standout for me. And this is not just because of Shea Wiggham, an actor. Shout out, Ford Walk Empire Hive. Massive. Massive. Massive fan of. Shout out wrist cutters. Like, love him. His performance is great. The design work on

his incredibly emotionally expressive face. His face that looks a lot like Gwen's face also looks a lot like what the beast looks like when he turns back into a human at the end of meeting the beast. Which is a very expressive eyes and eyebrow. Can you see it? Are you like?

Yes. Great. Joanna, I was like, what does this remind me of? And that was it. Thank you. You're welcome. Tugging at my brain. But on the like parent, children,

parenting their parents front when Gwen comes back, what she say to him, she says, you look skinny, like you haven't been eating, right? And then she gives this whole speech to him, like a parent would give to a kid, right? She gives this big moralistic speech to him. You already cited the killer line and they can only know half of who I am. But, you know, you put on that badge because you know if you don't, someone who shouldn't will, but you have to understand this mask is my badge and I'm trying to be good too. I was trying so hard to wear this the way that you would want, and I didn't. I didn't.

I could do all these things, but I couldn't help the people I love the most. And then he just, like, quits his job in the middle of this speech. Because Dean being her dad is more important, and he says, you're the best thing I've ever done. And then she says, you're not going to be a captain. There's her loophole in the destiny, right? If he's not a captain, then he's no longer that canon, you know, bench marks. It's interesting. Maybe.

Did her... Would Miguel say that she interfered with a canon event then? Like that her conversation changed the course there? That would be really interesting. It's like absolutely harrowing. I mean, we already have the... We talked about already the moment where Miles looks down at Gwen and Peter B

during the incredible Nueva York sequence and is like, you knew? Yeah. Just deep sense of betrayal that he feels. But like thinking about this, like Gwen isn't just watching Miles grapple with this about Jeff. She has been carrying this with her about her own father. But she's kind of hiding out.

She's just not going home. I think in the idea of like if she doesn't go home, she doesn't have to deal with the choice at all. Yeah. That's just, whew. To think of what they've each been carrying away from each other is really heavy. and like going when she goes back and like opens the drum and sees that he has taken you know the miles photo and like he's been without having the chance to talk to her apologize yet like he's been

considering something about who she is right and the choices that she's made he is the penguin with the walkie-talkie in it etc and like the moment at the beginning in the in the vulture guggenheim sequence when she does take off the mask and and is met not with acceptance but with like horror how long have you been lying to me how long have you been lying to me how long have you been to me and like the reflex when he lifts his gun like holy fuck that was just

a absolutely gut-wrenching thing to see and of course for both of them to carry after so the moment of reconciliation you know you talked already earlier beautifully about the color palettes and the way they change and like the melting despair

all around them as they don't know if they're going to be able to find their way back together and then like because the whole nature of the watercolor color palette is like there's a lot of of like merging and morphing of brushstrokes, right? And like that moment of not just the shift in hues, as you noted, but like there's a bright, clear, sharp burst of color and imagery and shapes and clarity. And it's like to have finally pushed to a place where they could

give that to each other again, it was just really lovely. And it's like a nice, like it's never too late. It seemed like it was going to be too late, right? But it doesn't have to be too late. And that's a that's a nice thing to know. When they're talking to each other right before the hug and the background is just abstract shapes. Art. This movie is art. All right. We talked a lot about Peter B. Parker already, but I just want to say a couple things.

He's the best. Number one, he rejects capes in the first film, but his robe is awfully cape-like in this film. May Day Parker, May Day Parker. Like, there is no character in this film that I can think of other than, like, Miguel. daughter who does not have a counterpart in the comics. Like every little spider person comes from somewhere in the comics. And May Day Parker is no exception, right? Created the late 90s, the spider girl, child of Peter Parker and Mary Jane Watson.

She's had the longest running superhero book with a lead female character ever published by Marvel before re-launched as the amazing spider girl. Love May Day Parker. I love this. She's so fucking cute in every single frame. Adorable. Wonderful stuff.

The day past bit with like, I didn't know they made those first. Not baby. It's so funny. The part where Peter, who, you know, of course, we should say just in case anyone doesn't remember, like,

a huge part of Peter B's arc and into the Spider-Verse is like he and his Mary Jane broke up, and his MJ broke up because he didn't want to have kids. And like, as he tells Miles in this movie, what he found with Miles, like, that nurturing spirit and pride and, like, investment in another person literally fundamentally changed his life. And it's such a funny moment in the first movie when he's like, I love you and I'm

proud of you. Wait, do I want kids? It just kills me. It's superfect. And then you get the really heartfelt follow up in this one where he's like, I like, I like, did. this because of you because I think you're incredible. And Miles is like... And I like spending time with you. Yeah. Like there would have been a moment where that would have been the most meaningful thing in the world to him. And he's...

What does he do? He leaves because he's like... I thought that about you and look what you did to me. Like, look what choice you made. Look what you didn't tell me. Well, we don't know how that would have gone if like the watch hadn't gone off, which like, you know, I don't believe that Peter was trying to... No.

Trape him. I think he was trying to, you know, pull him aside. But yeah, this... This is... Showing the baby photos. Peter going from where he wasn't into the spot. You're going to crack up with this one, right? Or he's like, he's like, Miguel's going to love this one, you know, like,

as if Miguel has ever smiled at a baby photo in his life. But the end of Into the Spider-Verse, after the like, wait, do I want kids? Like the very last sequence, right? You got to go home, man, Miles says. And Peter says, how do I know I'm not going to mess it up again? And Miles says, you won't. Peter says, right, it's a leap of faith, right? The leap of faith thread through into the Spider-verse.

but that's reflected right at the end of this movie, right, when he says to his MJ, like, am I going to be good at this, right? And she's like, you're asking this now? But she says, there's no playbook for raising someone like her, being someone like you, just got to make the right adjustments at halftime. And then they have, Mallory, frankly, I've never felt so represented on screen. As when MJ tries to explain to him what halftime is. It was like watching Joel and Ellie talk about fourth downs.

It's like any podcast I do with any ringer podcaster. Yeah, but now you know who Josh Allen is. So you're good. Buffalo bills. All right. Anything you want to say about Peter B before we move on? I just adore him. It is such an incredible character.

I would have liked a little more of him in the movie. Harsh reality, Spider-Man. What was the exact one is? That was so funny. Yeah, I agree. That was the... I would have liked more of him, too. I thought that his particular humor was such a, like, a sprinkling of magic across the first film.

And I would have loved to touch more of it here. He's the best. All right. We've done our main spider people, our villains, our parents. We're going to get to the other spiders. But, P.S., there are reportedly over 280 spider people in this movie, so we are not going to get to all of them. We're just going to talk about Spider-Cat. And Spider-Tex.

Spider-Wolf. All right, we really only have a couple that we want to mention here. Margot Kes slash Spider-Bite from Earth 2-2-1-9-1. And you mentioned little flirtation, meet the little squiggly lines of recognition. What was that about, Mallory Rubin? A crush. You know, they had some energy.

And that's great. That's great. I obviously strongly ship Miles and Gwen. as I think many do. But, you know, there are a lot of people out there in the multiverse. For her to feel a little threatened. Yeah.

Like an old manless Denver. Yeah. Also, there was, like, it was nice to have a real spark that helped build toward Spider-Bite's decision not to reboot, right? The go-home.

The go-home machine. As she's watching as Miles is about to escape. And she joins the band. at the end. So yeah, she's like, this guy's cute. I'm going to give risk it all. Hoomsd among us. Indeed. We didn't risk at all for post-growth spurt Miles Morales. All right. Ben Riley, Scarlet Spider, shout-out. My palineers, Dave Gonzalez, who has been talking about Ben Riley for literally like a decade of our friendship. What a time to be, Dave. Thrilled for him.

Seriously. I'm so happy for Dave, that Ben Riley, who's from. Like, it's complicated. Dave has explained it to me many times. It's a clone song of situation. But people who read Spider-Man comics in the 90s have this particular attachment to Ben Riley. So showing up as voiced by Andy Sandberg, kind of doing his Nicholas Cage impression. So make us miss Spider-Nois. Genuinely fantastic stuff.

Really, really incredible. The Uber 90s design, the muscles on top of muscle stuff. Hilarious. Wonderful. This is truly a delight. We already mentioned the Lego sequence, which was added after the teaser came out and a 14-year-old kid from Canada recreated the scene with Legos, the teaser trailer. And they're like, hey, kid, can we hire you to do a Lego sequence in the movie? And he did.

Unbelievable. That's rad. Earth 13122 Lego sequence. J. Jonah Jameson is just always. J. K. Simmons and I find that comforting. Anything you want to say about that, Mallory? I know that the larger examination is that things can be different across the multiverse, but not this. Not this. There is one constant. And it is J.K. Simmons. Penny? Is that you, Penn? Pen?

You answered. All right. You already mentioned most of the live action appearances. I don't think we need to go into this other than just to say hearing Elph and Molina say, hello, Peter. It's like, Hello, Peter. Really fun. Should I, should either of us read this long list of other spider people that's in this movie? Life's too short. That's a long list. I will just, I will call out the anomaly villain, the anomaly villain run through, which was amazing.

We get all the Doc Ox. Moose stereo and Mistereo, genuinely very funny. A boring, Rhino, an interesting craven. This was great. Did you like the typeface guy? Yeah. Go to Helvetica. And then Miles going bold.

Loved it. Loved it. Loved it. Peter Parked car, by the way, the car called Peter Parked car. Does kind of make a brief appearance and into the Spider-Verse. Like you see it in Aunt May's, it's, the car is in Aunt May's like warehouse thing. And Dan Slott told me back when that film came out that that was like his. He, like, screamed in the theater when he saw Peter Parked car in the first movie of the million Easter eggs.

All right. That brings us to the end. To Earth 42 and the Cliffhanger. We already talked about the nature of the cliffhanger a little bit earlier, but let's talk about Clause of the Prellar, the return of Uncle Aaron, and the introduction of Miles G. Morales. Something that's really fun and rewarding on a second watch is that the art of this world of Earth 42 is absolutely different. Oh, yeah. from Miles' home world. Did you figure it out before?

When did you figure it out? Right away, because the go-home machine shows, we flashed to it quickly and it says Earth 42 when it reads his DNA. She's so sharp. There's not getting anything past Molly's room. I think Adam was mad at me because I turned him and I was like, he's not going to his universe and I think he was annoyed with me. But then, you know, there are other, like the shading of the world.

his room is very different. Rio's eyes are different. So the clues like mount pretty quickly, but the quick flash of the Earth 42. But like building toward Miles as the prowler still really hit me. I was like, what is going to happen here on Earth 42? This is going to be intense.

Also Gwen being on 1610. Even though I knew more Miles was, I was like, oh boy, the cutting. And this is like, it was just really well. edited as a sequence to have the like suspense and intention mount. When Aaron walked through the door and like Miles and Gwen both have the moment where they figure it out, there's a lot going on as an intense moment for Miles. I think, you know, would you recognize your own room or the color of your mother's eyes?

Maybe, but that's okay. There's a busy day. I feel like. The office. Well, he's going through something. He's trying to make, he's having a big moment where he's trying to reveal something. Yeah. There's a lot of happening.

But like when his, oh my God, his face when Aaron walks in, it was like, devastating. It's like hopeful but then like terrifying. Yeah. And the fucking prowler theme. Yes. The shot when he sees the mural of his dad. And then what happens is that Aaron's phone lights up, which I have to imagine is like the other Miles texting him to be like I'm on my way or something like that.

And he just slides his eye over to look at our miles. So scary. Very scared for him. We got a punching bag, callback. Call back to Peter B. Parker tied up in the punchy bag. And how did Peter B. Parker get out of that in the first film? He says, don't watch the mouth, watch the hands. And when we see one little fingertip, I mean, we would love for him to have access to the full palm.

But he's got one little fingertip on the chain. I love this. I love the design of the other Miles, his hair. And I love how our Miles is trying to look brave while clearly being terrified. Like I feel like in the animation style, you can see the rapidity of his breath or like his pulse almost, but he's trying to keep very still and very brave in this moment of extreme fear. And something that I didn't see the first time until I need to look for it is that when the spot, talks about the spider 42 that was yanked out of Earth 42.

It looks like it's on its way to bite Miles G. Morales. So it's not that it would have been Peter Parker in that universe. I think we're supposed to think that it would have been Miles G. Morales who would have been bit by the spider and Earth 32. Yeah, I think so. This was another extreme empire strikes back stretch. We're like... Hans in trouble.

Hont's in trouble, but also like, what if the face you saw inside the mask was quite literally your own, right? And having to confront that was just like kind of sent a shiver up my spine. And especially because like Miles is giving Aaron this whole speech, right? Like you could be one of the good guys. And then to see that another version of him is the prowler. But like that, I guess that's my question for you is do you think that Miles G, the prowler of Earth 42 is going to end all? being actually a bad guy in the third movie because I do not. Okay. We're in agreement. Yeah, I think he's an anti-hero vigilante sort of thing. I'm with you. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Wonderful.

This is great. When we agree, Gwen starts a new band. Yes. The drum music comes back. So it's Peter B. Parker, Hobie, Pove, Spider-Man noir, Spider-Bite, Spider-Ham, and Penny. Yes. Right? So the from the first film and a bit of the gang from the second film is here. That's exciting. Yes. In Spider-Man, Beyond the Spider-Verse, I don't know that we need to spend

too much time speculating what's going to happen, but I do like re-watching the film that both Gwen and Miles promised their parents they'll be back. Incredibly concerning. Yeah. Gwen says right back. Yeah.

Right. Miles is going to be back with cake, right? I never like a promise. You know, we're too much in the Promise Me Ned. Yeah. It's based to ever be comfortable. when the word promise is uttered in the story. The reason I think

the prowler is an anti-hero vigilante sort of thing is because we get that mention of the sinister six cartel. Like it feels like he and O'Glaire are fighting the sinister six cartel. But something I forgot to mention in the Jeff section that I think is so interesting is when we're talking about

that Empire Strikes Back's idea of like looking in the mask, Luke sees his own face, etc., etc. This idea that Jeff has a shadow self and it's Aaron, the fact that, like, Jeff and Aaron were, you know, came up on the other side of the law as young men in their neighborhood. The fact that, like, Jeff talks a bunch and into Spider-Verce about choices when it comes to Aaron, right? Like, this sort of idea of, like, there before the grace go I kind of idea.

And, like, the Midnight Boys talked a bit about the fact that Jeff and Aaron in the comics. actually in the first film, their last name is Davis, and they sort of recond that and changed it so that Jefferson Davis, a horribly racially problematic name is no longer the name of the father in this story. He's Jeff Morales. Now he's billed as Jeff Morales in across the Spider-Verse. But what I love is, canon, he's Jeff Davis.

That would make Miles Davis. But I don't think that's why it's not his last name. Canonically in the comics, says my dad, Miles's grandfather, made the name Davis, like mud in this neighborhood. He was a criminal, bad reputation around it. I don't want you to grow up with that. You're going to have your mom's last name. So it's Miles Morales after his mom, which I really, I just like love that whole idea that Jeff is haunted by this darker choice, this darker path for himself and the ways in which Miles, depending on how it goes with Miles Gies Morales,

I do believe he's a vigilante, but like how far is he willing to go as a vigilante? You know what I mean? Like, I think he's still going to be a hero, but is he a hero with different moral boundaries than Our Miles has, you know, something like that. I don't know. But,

scheduled for March 29th, 2024. I can't wait. Yes. Be on the Spider-Mirth? Yes, I am. Anything you want to say about these other spider-eses projects that Amy Pascal and Avia Rod were teasing on the red carpet at the premiere to variety?

As always, when they're teasing future Spider-Man stuff, only questions. It's just when in a way, Avi is always a loose canon. Like, never trust anything that I'll be, like, we go back through history of Avia Rod quotes, almost always bullshit. Amy, much more reliable, but still, like, speaks more hopefully than maybe practice. But she says, a Spider-Woman in a live-action Miles Morales movie are in the works. She says you'll see all of it. Avi says you'll see a Spider-Woman movie sooner than you expect.

I don't know what to think. What does that mean? Avi, I don't know. And then Amy also says a four Spider-Man movie with Tom Holland and Zaday is still in the works, but the writer's strike is pause development. We're in the process, she says. I would love another Tom Holland Spider-Man MCU movie at some point in the future. I would absolutely love a live action Miles Morales movie at some point in the future.

I think, like, let's like a finish Spiderverse. Yeah, wrap this up. And enjoy one of the most remarkable things that we've ever gotten to witness. And then go from there. Do you think, my question is, do you think that the live action Miles movie will be a part of the MCU connected canon or a Sony solo? Sony solo. I don't think it's part of the deal. I think it's just Peter Parker

that is like sort of the shared thing. And so I think it would fall more into the Dr. Michael Morbius' venom Craven the Hunter camp. So, um, ominous. Okay. Not to Steve. Not to Steve.

The world's number one Dr. Michael Morbius fan. Okay. Anything you want to say on the Easter egg front, there are a million of them. I mean, we talked about so many of them already because obviously there are a lot in the canon. in events, sequences, et cetera. I think that the Venom, the Earth's 688,

Mr. Chen visit was probably my favorite of those. I did love that it's a bankruptcy callback. A little trip into phone party because Jeff and Miles had the conversation about and into the Spider-Verso. It was pretty funny to go on the inside there. I enjoyed that. What about you? I'm going to point out two things.

One thing in terms of the Miles and Gwen connection thing, I like that. So Miles has a Black Lives Matter BLM pin on his backpack, and she's got this like protect trans kids poster on her wall. And I just like, you know, they're like activist millennials. I love that. Or Gen Z's, sorry. And I love that for them and their potential connection there.

And then also T-Rex, the way that his thwip was captioned T-Hwip, T-Hip. Yeah, wonderful. Extraordinary. I also really enjoyed the Michelle. Obama sticker in Miles. Yes. Yes. Fantastic.

We did it. I'm so impressed with us. I am sad to leave this discussion. It has been such a joy to talk to you about the arachno-humanoid polymultiverse. Anything else you want to say before we go, Mallory Grubin? Let me guess. He died. Incredible moment in movie history.

Wonderful. Thanks. As always. to our very own spider society. All. Right? An elite squad. That includes production work from our Juniper and Paul.

Social from Jomi and Dineran. And of course our long-suffering palsy involvement on this edit that involves many interruptions from cats and gardeners and other things. A lot going on today. The men-night boys will be back on Wednesday with time travel draft. Again, we were very threatened and scared and sad and jealous about that. We're excited. Can't wait to hear. And then Friday, Mint Edition is here.

So Stephen Jomey will be there on Mint Edition, but also debut of our new pal, our new partner in crime. Jess Klamans will be here talk about Transformers' Rise of the Beast. We're so excited to have her here. Please tune in and check that out. And then Mal and I will be back on Monday with a mystery. You'll find out. along with the rest of us on Monday, what that might be. We'll see you then.

Bye!