The Ringer-Verse - ‘Star Trek: Strange New Worlds’ Season 2 Reactions

Episode Date: August 11, 2023

Ben and Joanna boldly go where no pod has gone before as they explore Season 2 of ‘Star Trek: Strange New Worlds.’ They start by discussing their personal journeys with ‘Star Trek’ and evaluating the current start of ‘Star Trek’ content as a whole (10:45). Then, they break down the highs and lows of ‘Strange New Worlds’ Season 2. They talk about the season's structure, the characters, the romances, the musical episode, and more (42:19)! Hosts: Ben Lindbergh and Joanna Robinson Associate Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfairadio.com. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors.

So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need WeatherTech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. Everyone in the chair has their thing. Captain Pike always says, hit it. My last captain liked to say, Zoom. Must I have a thing? Do you have a thing? Well, I've been workshopping.

Vamunos. But it's supposed to be about you. What kind of commander are you? All that. So, no pressure. I would like the ship to go. Now. Hello! And we're... Hello and welcome into the ringerverse, your nexus feed for all things fandom, and yes, that includes Star Trek fandom. I am Ben Lindberg, a senior editor for The Ringer, and joining me in the Ringerverse Ready Room is my number one. House of ours own Joanna Robinson.

Joanna, hello, I don't know about you, but I could not be more ready to be in this room. I love that you call me your number one because what you don't know is that I riker my way into every chair that I ever sit in. I never actually see you sit down. You're always seated by the time I say on screen. I am so excited to do this episode with you. We have been talking about how much we love this show since it premiered. And I'm just, I'm thrilled. Like, I've been, like, bottling all of my thoughts and opinions in Star Trek takes for this episode, knowing that we were going to do this.

So I'm so delighted to be here, Ben. Same. I am energized. I'm beaming. I'm thrilled to my. warp core because today we are discussing a series that is near and dear to our hearts, Star Trek, Strange New Worlds, which, yes, I would say has accounted for a significant percentage of our private correspondence since last spring. There have been Spock gifts. There have been Pike screenshots.

There have been many thirsty comments about Anson Mount and his hair, most of them probably by me. And now we're finally turning our Trek texts and slacks and emails into a podcast to celebrate Strange New World's second season finale, which went up on Paramount Plus on Thursday, but also to celebrate the season as a whole and Star Trek itself. So because it's been a while since Star Trek had the con at the ringerverse, we thought we would discuss our personal histories with Star Trek and our thoughts on the state of Star Trek at large before we dive into the details of Strange New World Season 2. But be warned, we will eventually be discussing the season in its entirety, including the finale.

So you may want to watch Hegemony before joining us on this full journey today. You may also want to watch Hegemony because it's an episode of Star Trek Strange New Worlds, a wonderful series. And on that note, before we have our high-level chat and before we get into any spoilers, let's just sum up what we think about this series

and this season. Joanna, what are your thoughts on Star Trek Strange New World? Is this the best TV show of the year? question mark. That's tough because we had the bear and we had some other great things. Best genre show? Certainly, certainly. Like, far in a way the best genre show.

And like, I guess the bear came out. I was calling this the show of the summer quite contentedly. And then I just realized the bear kind of came out the summer as well, early summer. But like, this show is so good. And I already liked it before this season. And then I already liked it going into the beginning of the season. And then, you know, you said this to me. the other day, but the back half is just like, banger, banger, banger, banger, banger.

Like, taking the show to like a whole new level. And now I've become this, as I was just telling you before we started recording, like this zealot for Strange New Worlds. And I am just accosting people on the street and being like, have you heard the good word? Yeah. About Star Trek Strange New World. So I adore this show. Ben, what do you want to say about it?

I don't think there's a show that consistently leaves me with warmer and fuzzier feelings than Strange New Worlds that just makes me feel better about the world and life and art and TV. It's just a pretty perfect show. And I don't mean that every episode is equally engaging or every plotline or character equally compelling because there are some aspects that haven't resonated with me as much. We'll get into that. But the bones of the show are so solid and so satisfying. It's just a show that knows what it wants to be and almost always.

hits that target. It's almost like an antidote to all the fretting about the direction of other universes about DC or the MCU or Star Wars, these IP identity crises. This is a show that gives me exactly what I want from this franchise and what I've always wanted, but also does it differently enough that I still feel like I'm seeing something new. So I can't say no notes, but very few notes. And I think the good news for our current IP identity crisis, this is that, you know, this wasn't the first show out of the gate. Of course, we'll talk about all the other ones. But like, and highs and lows and whatever, we'll talk about all of that. But like, the fact that they could get this so right when I think some people were like,

what's going on with Star Trek? You know, I would say somewhere in the middle of probably Picard season two. People are like, what's going on? Right. I was definitely saying that. And then there's this. And we're like, wow, this is just so damn good. And I think that to your point about, you know, whether the episode is an incredible one or whether it's just an okay one, those exist, something that you texted me the other day when we were talking about the finale, no spoilers to the finale, but you said something about like, my space friends is a phrase you used in the text to me. And that's what it feels like. We're just getting, you know,

10 episodes feels too short. Every hour that I get to spend with my space friends, you know, whatever they're doing, I am enjoying spending that time with them. And that's something that's always been a joy of the best versions of Star Trek is that you are just sort of hanging out with your crew of whatever ship we happen to be following around, you know, boldly going around the universe. Yeah. It's not just Star Trek. It's the found family model and the spaceship that's the home base for everyone. But Star Trek can do that the best. Right.

It is that as well. Yeah. When I wrote about the season one finale, the feeling I had was homesickness. That's how I felt when Strange New Worlds went off the air. It was like, I don't get to see my space friends, my space family anymore at the Enterprise. This is my home base. And I think a lot of Star Trek series take some time to ramp up and find themselves, right? I mean, there are some shows that didn't really fully become themselves until season three or so. And right out of the gate, Strange New Worlds, I think had a problem. pretty solid sense of itself, but did find a new level in season two, especially the back half where, okay, this is fulfilling all of the promise that this had immediately. So it's reaching new heights. I think also in a season two of any show, oftentimes when I look at some of my favorite shows, the second season is my favorite season. And it's because, and hopefully this will just get better and better and better. I'm not saying, well, this is it. We peaked. But like, you, you as a writer are.

still full of so many fresh ideas of this new world that you are playing in. Plus, you now have a better sense of your characters or what you're more crucial, I think, what your actors are capable of. So, like, season one, you write the episodes, you know, knowing kind of who, maybe you've already cast or maybe you have it, but like having a sense of an idea. But then you're like, oh, this person can crush any comedy line. You know, and I know season one and two were done sort of back to back with Strange New Worlds, But I feel like in a season two, you can really write to your various strengths that you have in the cast and sort of better masks some of the weaknesses.

And that just, you know, it's a perfect cocktail. Yeah, you discover most of your cast can sing. And then you say, why don't we do a musical? We'll get to that. So I've got to give you a few programming reminders because just as Strange New Worlds knows what kind of show it is and wants to be. So does the ringerverse. And it's the show that you want it to be. We hope on Monday, Mint Edition.

will be here with a Harley Quinn season four midseason check-in. And midweek, Wednesday, House of Art, Joanna, and Mal will be sharing their Asoka watch list, which I cannot wait to hear because I've been wrestling, struggling with how to prep for Asoka for quite a while now because there's a deep-dive version of the Asoka prep where you could spend months preparing for the series. And then there's the version that's, I just want to watch a TV show. I don't actually want to do any homework, even if it's fun homework. So I imagine most people will be somewhere in the middle, and I look forward to your guidance on that score. I'm so excited that we're back in Star Wars season because it means we get to hear, we get to have you on the show, Ben, and that makes you really happy.

Yes. And next Friday, House of Midnight, we'll be back to talk about Blue Beetle. And that reminds me I was thinking about what to call our podcast crossover today, the most exciting new crossover since Strange New Worlds and Lower Decks. If House of R plus Midnight Boys is House of Midnight, what's House of R plus Buttonmash? And is it just House of Mash? I don't know if that works. And then a button mash listener suggested R button, which is perfect, video game themed. So I'm going to go with R button.

I don't know if anyone else will. I love it. But that's what I'm calling it. The R button. All right. Let's get back to Star Trek. And let's start probably still staying spoiler free here for now by talking a little bit about our Star Trek origin stories and our attachment to this franchise, what's your relationship to Star Trek and how did it start?

Yeah, I definitely started with the original series. You know, it was off air and reruns. I'm not not old, but like, you know, watching the original series as a kid. Like, I have a memory of Star Wars before Next Generation. Next Generation was the main show that I watched as a kid. But, you know, the Star Trek movies, you know, San Francisco is like, element of the Star Trek universe. So I think I felt a connection to that growing up in the Bay Area. But when Next Generation started, that was my sister's favorite show. And my sister is my older sister. So she had controlled. So if we were watching something, we were watching next generation. And then if I was watching something, maybe I was watching something else. But if

my sister was there, we were watching Next Generation. And that was it. And I just have such a strong attachment and affection for next generation and the original series as well. My aunt and uncle were huge, the original series fans. They still are. They rewatched all the time. I just sent them season one of Strange Two Worlds on Blu-ray in the mail to like, hey guys, check this out. I think they'll dig it.

Physical media. So old school. I know. I mean, we'll talk about Paramount Plus in a second. And then I, yeah, and then I had a teacher in middle school. He was like the, he was the P. teacher. he also ran the chess club. And then he, like, he loves Star Trek.

And he would dress up a Spock all the time. And he would just show episodes of the original series sometimes, like, as part of his, like, Imaginarium club. There's something, I don't want to, Star Trek is for everyone, obviously. But you know how they do that taxonomy, which I can never keep clear of, like, there's geeks and there's nerds and there's dorks and there's, you know, like, whatever that is, whatever the one that is like socially awkward, likes genre stuff, but is very, very smart. I always kind of thought that Trek went in that sort of like that bucket, not saying that like,

you have to be very, very, very smart or intellectual or whatever. But wasn't that the whole thing with the original series is that why it had several pilots is that the network was like, this is way too intellectual. Can you make it a little bit more adventure? But it keeps, if you watch the original series, I think people just know about like tribbles and sort of Shatner and stuff like that. And if you watch it, though, it's like, it's kind of heady. It's kind of, it's very thoughtful.

And so, yeah, that's my sort of rambling. And then, you know, I watch a DS9 and some of the other shows and have watched the movies and all of that. But, like, I never felt as attached to anything as I did to next gen. What is your Star Trek story, Ben? Some real Masters of the Science Fiction craft wrote episodes of original Star Trek. So that is some serious sci-fi. And actually, a lot of parallels with my story. I also owe a school gym teacher, surprisingly, for some of my Star Trek allegiance.

That's funny. Surprisingly, I did not grow up in a very sci-fi fantasy forward family, oddly enough. I don't know how I turned out this way, but most of my introductions to these fictional worlds came from friends or teachers or just stumbling on these things on my own. And that was the case with Star Trek. In I want to say fourth grade, my grammar school had this proto-elective program with one period where you could choose to study something in a small class. And there was one that our math and gym teacher taught about Star Trek the original series. So naturally, I chose that because it sounded fun. And it was a very freaks and geeks A.V. Club sort of situation.

Just like a bunch of budding nerds learning at the knee of an older nerd or geek or whatever term we're using. So shout out to Mr. Hughes. And I don't really remember how it qualified as a class. I guess we discussed the episodes after we watched them. But I mostly remember eating cookies and drinking orange juice and watching Star Trek, which sounds like an ideal day at any age. And then as a kid in the 90s, I also, I think probably most people had a very piecemeal way of watching Star Trek. It was just, oh, cool, the next generation or Deep Space Nine or Voyager is on or, hey, here's

an original series rerun, I'll just watch whatever you show me in whatever order it is. And I've subsequently gone back and watched some series start to finish. But back then, it was much more scattershot. And I think because of that, and because there's so much of it, 900 episodes of Star Trek now across all the various series with all the highs and lows and filler that you got with super long seasons of network TV and the occasional clip show, I just, I don't really stress about Star Trek. I have a very deep but laid back love of it, if that makes sense. So it feels like a very healthy relationship that I have with this franchise. It's funny. I mean, we'll talk about the JJ Abrams movies a little later, but like I was watching a, um, a trecker, right? That's,

that's the preferred terminology versus trekkie. I was watching a trecker YouTuber the other day to sort of like prep for this like some breakdowns of some original series episodes. And she, hates those JJ Abrams movies and she was like this edge lord like bullshit blah blah and I just like I consider myself a Trek fan I love Trek um I didn't I don't feel intensely one way or another about any Trek property some have been for me some haven't but I've never felt like this is a betrayal to the very core of what Star Trek is you know that's just not the relationship I have with Trek and maybe it's just because as well talk about when we talk specifically about the season of Strangy Worlds, it's such a flexible

world. Like, it can be so many different things. And so, you know, I understand people, people feeling like maybe reimagining some certain characters that they have an attachment to. Like, that's maybe I think where a lot of people get hung up. But in terms of like, you know, Trek can only be one thing. No, unlike, unlike I think some of the other properties, like Star Wars, I think has shown itself to be a little less flexible. Like, there's. some things that have been a little less less flexible. And I think in an ideal world, in a future utopian San Francisco, where we have a polished currency, every piece of IP is this flexible. Every sort of storytelling framework can wrap its arms around any, you know, flavor of storytelling.

Does that make sense to you? Yeah. And I think this will be relevant to our discussion of Strange New Worlds because this is not how everyone relates to this franchise, and I think it's fine not to relate to the franchise this way, but as inspiring and thought-provoking and comforting as I find it, I don't care that much about its canon or continuity, and I can't tell you the star date of the Dominion War or whatever from memory, right? Like, even though I'm the guy who talks to you about Star Wars lore, and I love Star Trek in sort of a similar degree, but a different way. And I think that's partly because of the way I watched it originally. originally, just coming across it as I found it, and partly because of the classic episodic structure, and partly because the narrative is a little looser than, say, Star Wars, it's not telling a tightly connected and consistent story in the same way. It's much more comic booky in its alternate timelines and time travel and mirror universes. So I just, I don't demand an in-universe explanation for why Klingons look different than they used to, right? I just take those things in

stride in a way that I wouldn't with other franchises. And there's a Leonard Nimoy quote I like from 2009. And he said, Canon is only important to certain people because they have to cling to their knowledge of the minutia. Open your mind. Be a Star Trek fan and open your mind and say, where does Star Trek want to take me now? Except he said it in Leonard Nimoy voice. And you know I cling to knowledge of minutia about Star Wars, for one, and we'll probably be talking to you about some of it when we're watching Asoka, but just not Star Trek for whatever reason. And frankly, it feels liberating to love something this way without the baggage and the burden of expectations.

Well, I mean, I think that, you know, George Lucas would be the first to say that the characters that he created for Star Wars are more archetypes than they feel like fully fleshed out characters, you know, the actors who inhabited them. and our long relationship with them have turned them into something more. But for the most part, Star Wars is trying to tell us a myth that has to do with like, you know, but Star Trek, this is like, we're in like naval battle adventure mode. Like that's what we're doing. And the characters here, what I love about the characters of Star Trek is that they are so,

there's this like, I was trying to nail down what the tone was. that Strangely Worlds gets so right about the relationship, and it's that characters are so often in this world either very fond of each other or very exasperated with each other. And that's sort of the, like, dynamic of just sort of like, there's so many reaction shots of Shatner or, you know, a ton of people from the original series

just being like, they'll be a like, oh, you sort of thing, which is like that hokey sort of older television thing. This is a Desi Lou property after all. Which Pike does constantly, right? The handing it up, the mugging, it's the best. The sitcom dad thing, yeah, but it's just sort of like this fondness, you know? And I, and whatever conflicts there are, there are major, anyway, we'll get into it. I'm getting lost.

But I do think that that approach to character is very different. And that means that as long as you are. connecting with the emotionality of the characters, the minutia kind of blurs away. And then also, the minutia is often quite, as you pointed out, very silly in Star Trek. So like, it feels silly to hold tightly to it, do you know? Yeah, right. It's the stereotype of, I guess, any nerd, but Star Trek fans, I mean, going back to the Shatner S&L sketch, right, where he says, get a life. It's like people, you know, this thing that happened in this specific episode, how does that square with, you know, kind of the comic book guy line of questioning, which I just, I have sometimes about other

properties, but not about Star Trek. I'm just, I'm free of that kind of questioning. So as we segue into a larger look at where Star Trek stands now, what's your level of investment in familiarity with Star Trek TV, new Star Trek TV, CBS All Access, Paramount, Plus Star Trek TV beyond Strange New Worlds? I was really excited for Discover. I remember going to the San Diego Comic-Con panel where Brian Fuller was still attached to discovery and they like showed us the ship and like all this or stuff like that. And I watched the first, I think, two seasons. And then I just kind of fell off. It just wasn't hooking me. I think, again, emotionally sort of season to season. It was sort of easy for me to like between seasons

just sort of lose track of it and not come back to it. Lower Dex is a show that I've really enjoyed a lot, like very delightful. And Picard, again, I was so excited for Picard because I was a huge next generation, next generation fan. And just like, wall to wall, got so excited, like, invested in the knitwear and like everything that was happening. And like, what, you know, everything. And like, oh, Michael Schabens on it. Like, what are they doing? And Patrick Stewart's like, we're not going to do what we originally do. It's going to be so different. We're not a nostalgia play. That's not what we're doing. And I watched the first season and I liked it.

And then season two, Mishigas, you know what I mean? And then season three, they're like, just kidding. Okay, we'll give you all what you want, which is all the old characters that you know. We'll just do a long next-gen movie, essentially, come along for the ride. And that was like pretty delightful.

I haven't watched any of Prodigy, which is now no longer or has a new home, right? Is that what happened to Prodigy? Hopefully, yeah. Hopefully. So that's sort of where I am. How about you? Truck TV.

Yeah. Strange New World. and lower decks are just exquisite and the fact that they crossed over seems too good to be true. Lower Decks could have been a one-note spoof without much staying power, but instead it's turned into

just a great Star Trek series in its own right, not just in the way that it lovingly, affectionately pokes fun at Star Trek, but just in its own cast and crew and the stories that it tells. Couldn't love Lower Decks more. Very similar reaction

and level of engagement with Discovery. I thought it started strong, but then I stopped watching. I think I made it to season four early in season four before I dropped off, but I did drop off, which I feel vaguely guilty about. But it just stopped grabbing me for reasons that maybe we'll get into later. And then, yeah, Picard started sort of strong. And my headline for my review of season one, Picard is not a next generation reboot, which it wasn't at the time.

And then season two. But still the best episode. Yeah, but still the best episode. best episode of season one is Troy and Riker. You know what I mean? Right. Yeah. And then season two, it stalled and then totally tanked and then season three completely clicked.

It was like Ortegis landing the shuttle in the Strange New Worlds finale, just plummeting to the ground and pulling up just in time. So that was quite a turnaround. I'm very confused about the fact that Akiva Goldsman, whose track record is spotty, one could say. There's some highs. There's some lows. but he was co-show runner of Picard and Strange New Worlds at the same time. And one was terrible and one was wonderful. And I'm not sure exactly how that works.

But yeah, they did eventually embrace the nostalgia and it felt like, why did you wait so long? And then like you, Prodigy, I just haven't seen much of. I started it. It wasn't wowed right away. Didn't keep going. Though I know it gets better and a lot of people love it and hope that it finds a home. So we're talking exclusively about TV. people may have noticed because there's just nothing new to report when it comes to the Star Trek film franchise.

There's just been a complete stagnation of the movies since Star Trek Beyond in 2016. The many scripts for Star Trek 4 are saved in Dr. Embenga's transporter buffer somewhere for someday, maybe. Here's something I realized while prepping for this pod. By the end of this year, we will be in the longest stretch without a Star Wars or Star Trek movie. since the two film franchises started in the 70s. So there were roughly four years between Revenge of the Sith and the 2009 Star Trek reboot. There were four years about between the 2009 Trek and Star Trek into darkness. And then Star Trek 4 was at one time scheduled to come out this December,

which would have been four years since Rise of Skywalker, but now no one knows when or if the next Star Trek movie will come out. And the next Star Wars movie isn't coming out until 2020. supposedly. So we're about to boldly go where no star movie drought has gone before. So not saying J.J. Abrams killed both Star Trek and Star Wars movies, but also not not saying that. You're inside. I support you in that incredible statement. And I love that you did that math. I think that's really fascinating. We did get an email from listener Brandon who wrote in, you know, a little bit of defense of J.J. Abrams, or at least the importance of J.J. Abrams as a way into Strangney

Worlds. And no major spoilers here. We're still not like really getting to Strange New World spoilers. But this is what Brandon says. I must acknowledge the impact that J.J. Abrams' 2009 star Trek film has had on current Trek, especially on Strange New Worlds. It really did the heavy lifting three ways, which it set the template going forward for Trek. One, acclimating audiences with new actors playing iconic roles, right? So we get like, we get Kirk and Spock there, and that maybe makes it easier for us to accept other Kirk's and Spock's here. Number two, the updated technology and look of Star Trek and the enterprise for a modern audience. And number three, making me actually care about Christopher Pike. No offense to Jeffrey Hunter and the Cage Menachry episodes,

but 2009 Star Trek gave Bruce Greenwood a chance to integrate that character more firmly into the Star Trek universe. And so for those who are listening and if you've made it this far and you, I don't watch Strange New Worlds. It's a prequel series. We've got some, you know, established characters. We'll talk about them in a second. But like the core lead is Christopher Pike, a character barely seen in the original series. But in the alternate world of the JJ Abrams film embodied by Bruce Greenwood.

And I thought really well, I love that character in the JJ Abrams film. So I thought those are good points. What do you think about Brandon's points? there. A valiant defense, I would say. But I think Anson Mount made me care about Christopher Pike. You know, I don't know that it was movie Pike that made me think I want to see more of Pike. I think Anson Mount would have made me want to see more of whoever he was playing regardless. It is true that, I guess they sort of broke the seal when it came to recasting Kirk and Spock, although initially that made me more wary because I was thinking we're doing Kirk and Spock again. Didn't we just do

that. Is this the new Spider-Man? So I could see why there'd be a bit more resistance, but I guess if there's some kind of, this is not the Kirk and Spock I grew up with resistance to the idea, then maybe that helped break it down. And it is true that that did help establish a new look, a new aesthetic for Star Trek. I don't always love that aesthetic. And I think that Strange New Worlds actually kind of finds a nice middle ground that's a little more retro, that's modernized, but is not quite as neon blue as JJ Star Trek. I was going to say sterile white. Yeah.

Yeah. Like, yeah, yeah. Not quite as antiseptic, right? Yeah. It doesn't look like a surgical word or something or like where, I don't know, something from the Matrix, right? So it's true, though, that that did create a template for, okay, we can redesign this. We can decide what we want Star Trek to look like now.

On the pike front, just really quickly, like, um, my, I think I've told this, I'm sure I've told this to Valerie before, but like my, Anson Mount is such an interesting actor that I have been oddly fascinated with his career since before he starred opposite Britney Spears and Crossroads because my sister did a play with him. Well, way back in the day in New York when she was a, he was like a young star, like theater actor and she was a, I think probably as assistant director or something like that. And they, everyone in that play used to call him. him handsome Anson. That was the nickname for him at the time. And so that's just what my sister

and I have called him, like, his entire career. And for a long time, it was like, we were in the desert of handsome Anson content. There just wasn't a lot to talk about. And then all of a sudden, I'm like, he's the lead of a Star Trek show. And he's playing Christopher Pike, a character that I like and I'm interested in. So I think it was like the combination of Anson and the Pike as a figure that I was interested in. Right. Yeah, I guess you were an early adopter, whereas I was aware of him, had seen him in some things, but was kind of like, where did this man come from? I mean, where has he been my whole life? Why has he not been starring in everything, right? So sometimes I guess it's just a late bloomer thing. You know, your hair starts to go silver and you somehow get even more handsome,

handsome or maybe the right role comes along and it was just made for you. And suddenly that star power is just apparent to everyone. But I envy you your years, your decades of Anson appreciation. I mean, I think he is just better than he's ever been. I'm not going to claim that he has always been this like incredible hidden gem that we were like keeping secret or whatever. But it was just like a weird curiosity that we were always like, oh, what's handsome Anson up to or whatever. Now it's like, oh my God, he's getting a Star Trek show. Okay. Yeah. Now the rest of the world is asking that same question. So we've talked about how there are no new movies, not that you'd notice, because thanks to streaming, there's just more

star stuff than ever, Trek and Wars. And I apologize to the Trek fans where like, you're finally doing a Star Trek pod and you keep bringing up Star Wars. Let us have this one. But I think it's, you know, first of all, there's a lot of overlap in those fandoms. And that's true for us too. But I think it makes for an interesting compare and contrast sometimes. But TV is Trek's traditional and natural habitat more so than with Star Wars, right? So I wonder now, would we even want a Trek movie without the Strange New World's cast? It just seems like Strange New Worlds is Star Trek to me now, right? So would we want one without this cast?

And would we want a Trek movie with the Strange New World's cast? Is that even necessary now? Do we need to have the original series? next generation model of once your show is done, then you go on to keep playing those characters in movies. I mean, it's such a more complicated question for them because this being a prequel, it's doing that, it's doing well what Star Wars has been struggling with, which is telling a story in the margin of a story that we're already familiar with.

And so, you know, the longer you tell this story, kind of, they've been so depth and nimble with it, and we'll talk about that. but the longer you tell this story, like you can't follow these characters as they ate. I guess you could. I don't know. Maybe I could just let it go and be like, this is our Kirk and Spock now.

Yeah, sure. We'll just tell stories in parallel with the original series. Oh, yeah. Alternate. I mean, yeah. I mean, I keep wondering if they're going to do that because, I mean, the show is actively playing with it. But like, that's what JJ did to get around a lot of shit is just sort of like,

oh, this is an alternate timeline. and that's available to you in the Trek universe. So, yeah, if Strangy Worlds, I mean, I actually haven't been looking at the viewership number. I don't know if we know the Paramount Plus viewership numbers. It seems like more and more people are talking about this show, but it also just doesn't seem like it's broken into the mainstream. But what if it does? What if this becomes like a big thing? And then we just get to talk about these actors and these roles for years to come because they decide to splinter it off into an alternative timeline.

And I hope they keep their hearts and minds open to that possibility. Well, we're doing our part. We're spreading the gospel. And in the absence of Trek movies, the focus has been entirely on TV. And there has been a ton of TV. So when CBS All Access launched that the executive said this was 2018, our goal is year-round Star Trek. You know, the sun never sets on the Star Trek TV empire. And that has basically been the case or close to the case.

So you had discovery in Picard and Strangely. New Worlds and Lower Decks and Prodigy. Now, Strange New World's season three and lower deck season five are confirmed, but there's also some uncertainty because Picard is done, and there's been some talk of a legacy spin-off from that, but nothing concrete. And then Discovery is wrapping up next year. Prodigy canceled at Paramount, but some of it is done already, and they've been shopping it around.

And then you have Paramount Plus, which is the home of Trek and Taylor Sheridan, basically, slashing spending as a lot of streamers are doing these days. So it's again, sort of analogous to Disney slowdowns and whoops, maybe we made too much Star Wars and too much Marvel, and now we have to cut back a bit. Some of that could be happening with Star Trek here, although there's another show Starfleet Academy that is coming next year, essentially replacing Discovery Slot. And then Section 31, which is Michelle Yose was supposed to be a show. And then her career took off. And perhaps she was not quite as available for that show.

But that is now transforming into a streaming only movie, which is supposedly part of a phase two at Paramount Plus, which is going to be a new streaming Star Trek movie every two years. So that does make me wonder, though, is Paramount Plus exclusivity limiting Trek ceiling? what if Strange New Worlds were just airing on CBS? I mean, what if this were playing to a network audience like old school Star Trek used to be? Would this be much more in the zeitgeist than it is than it can be on this streaming service that Star Trek is one of the main reasons why you would subscribe to that? So it's not necessarily reaching a massive crossover audience. I think they're really shooting themselves with a strategy because I understand that the point of locking Star Trek behind

And first to CBSL access now, Paramount Plus curtain is like, this is the bait. Come behind the curtain and enjoy truck with us. Taylor Sheridan has also become, as you mentioned, like an unexpected lure into Paramount Plus. But even despite the Sheridan versus popularity, a lot of people I don't know, I know, don't have Paramount Plus. It feels like a bridge too far for them. When I get it all like foamy at the mouth talking about Strangeload. worlds. They're like, okay, where can I watch it? I'm like, Paramount Plus? And they're like, uh, wah-wah, um, you know, and so I, I do, you know, that is why I mailed discs to my aunt

uncle in the mail, because they're like, we have Netflix and we have Amazon and we're not getting anything else. And I was like, okay, you have a Blu-ray player. Let's work with that, you know, sort of thing. But like, I, um, I wish they would do what other platforms have done successfully, is dangle season one out on Netflix or Hulu or something that more people have. And if they watch that, then they'll want to subscribe. You know what I mean? Like, it's the Riverdale Netflix bump. It's the, you know, like this has happened again and again.

It's what happened with Breaking Bad on AMC. Like, you have to let the broader audience have access to it. I know Paramount Plus has a, they have like a trial window that you could do if you want to do a binge. but that comes with commercials. And like I, we're so unused to commercials at this point that, you know, or I'll speak for myself. I'm so unused to commercials at this point that I'm like,

well, I would rather die than do that. So I wish, I wish that they would uncage like season one or something like that on a, on a platform that I can direct more people to so that then they can spread the word and spread the word and spread the word. And then they'll be like, well, season one, what a killer. I got to watch season two.

And then sign up for Paramount Plus. And while I'm here, sure, I'll watch all of our I Carly. Why not? You know, something like that. Right. Yeah. I think this will be a way for us maybe to transition more directly to Strangely New Worlds. All of these franchises, Star Trek included, are wrestling with the past and the legacy

and how do we do justice to that and also strike off in new directions. And I saw a story by a writer I like on a website I like about how Star Wars is beholden to the past while Star Trek is experimenting. This was sort of prompted by Strange New Worlds season two. And I think you can make that case. You could also make a case for the reverse. You know, Star Wars has visions and Asoka and or an acolyte. There's some interesting stuff there happening. And what I wonder is, is Star Trek to some degree stuck in the past?

And if so, is that a bad thing? It's clearly not a bad thing when it comes to Strange New Worlds, which we love. But you could portray it that way, where Star Trek was really trying to do some new things, not within the old model, which is sort of the strange new worlds. We're going to innovate within the classic structure of Star Trek. But we're going to redefine what the structure of Star Trek is, right? I admired discovery for breaking the molds with its heavy emphasis on serialization. You know, I know that obviously Deep Space Nine, some other shows, there were some serialized elements to those. This was full on.

We're going for the modern prestige TV type serialized storytelling. And the cast, the women of color captains and Suru becoming a captain and then the 900-year time jump and a darker tone. And it was really experimenting and trying to break the mold. But also, I realized I really like the mold. And with a few exceptions like Saroo and Tilly, if I could somehow draft Tilly onto the Strange New World's crew. That would be wonderful. I think she would fit in great. But other than them, I just, I didn't care that much about the crew around Burnham. And I think that's why the show lost me at a certain point. And it was almost like the serialized storytelling kind of detracted from the classic

Star Trek model of let's give an episode to each crew member. And then we will really understand them and care about them, which Strange New Worlds does so well this season. So that's why I'm kind of thinking Picard didn't really click until they finally sort of surrendered. said, all right, this is a nostalgia act. It's a really wonderful, well-done, and well-earned nostalgia act, but that's what it is. And also, I think, in the wake of discovery, Strange New Worlds was sort of pitched and marketed as, hey, this is a return to classic track, right? And so it would be, I think, a little bit deflating to me if they tried new things and then they discovered, actually, we can't really do new things and we sort of have to retreat to

the original series and the next generation model and mold. And yet it has worked so well when they've done that with Picard Season 3 and especially with Strange New Worlds. So what do you think of the prequel premise and setting of Strange New Worlds, which was a spinoff from Discovery Season 2? And as you mentioned, kind of a continuation of The Cage, the original failed Star Trek, the original series pilot. That was so striking, though, when I was watching Discovery Season 2, it's still enjoying it at that point. But then the Enterprise showed up and Spock and Pike. And I was like, I want to watch this show, actually. The show looks a lot better.

And I think everyone kind of felt that way. And we all just wished Strange New Worlds into existence. I love that. And they just went with it. And that's what you love to see in TV creatives for them too. I always like to say that TV is a pliable medium. That it can be reactive in a way that, you know, like films can't. And so to jump on the popularity of those characters and give them their own world to play and it's so smart.

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forward slash active cash terms of play. Let's do it. Spoilers for Strangin Worlds. Here we go. Okay. So like as you mentioned, this is like we're seven years before the original series, right? We've got,

we've already talked about how we have like pikes in the cast. Spock is here. Uhura is here. And then we are starting to seed in other characters in the finale. Again, spoilers. Have you watched a gemini yet? Watch it please.

Scotty's here. Exciting. After T's last season, Scotty's here. But the Kirk question was a really crucial one for them. And talking to you

a little bit in the last couple weeks, I mentioned that the episode Tomorrow and Tomorrow was my favorite and you were like, I thought that was a really good. I was having trouble

caring about Kirk before that, right? That's what you said to me. So I, not to be like, I knew all of these actors before, but like I came with a little bit warmer feelings

for Paul Wesley. just because of all the years in the trenches I spent with the vampire diary. So like I... Did you have a nickname for him? Like handsome insom? No, I did. I don't. Stefan Salvatores.

I was surprised by the casting. But I was immediately interested in him when he showed up at the end of season one. But I think what they've... To your point about making us care about characters, they're being so smart. It's not an accident. It's not just, we're familiar with some of these characters. It's not just how they cast it. It's writers at the top of their game being so smart about how they deploy characters.

So if you think about, we met two alternate Kirk's before we meet real Kirk, right? We meet, you know, different future Kirk at the end of season one. And then we meet alternate timeline, present day Kirk in tomorrow and tomorrow, before we meet actual flesh and blood, James C. Kirk. I guess at the very end of tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow. And what does he do? What happens in tomorrow and tomorrow is that a character that we like, I mean, I love Laan. Laan is, Lawn is maybe my favorite character.

To have her fall in love with him or fall for him. I mean, love is a big word to use for how little time they hand together, but fall for him, care for him to see him through her eyes, makes us care for him. And then when he shows up meaningfully a second time, it's a classic, like, Save the Cat screenplay trick where he's saving Ahura. He's here to help and save and protect and encourage Ahura, a character that we spend a lot of time with and we care about. And then he shows up for the musical episode, which is like a big showcase episode for the season, a big, like emotional reveal episode for a lot of our characters. And I'm just like, what it, like, boom, boom, boom. give us like very cleverly put us in a position where even if we're resistant we're like hashtag

not my Kirk they're cleverly riding him in in a way to make us care about and they do this across the cast in terms of like splitting people off we'll talk about love stories we'll talk about friends but like little pairs of friendships you know what I mean like I care about chapel and benga because they care about each other like all this sort of stuff and so they're just so brilliant with all of that with the balance of classic characters, new characters, but crucially characters who care about each other instead of we care about them. Right. Yes, I had that feeling about Kirk, not even so much because he was different from the Kirk I knew in love, although he certainly is, but just because it didn't really feel like

he fit in this show yet, that it was more like, well, we've got to get to Kirk at some point, So here he is, right? Whereas I was quite content to just stay with my space friends here, right? Because I don't think of Strange New Worlds. There are times when I forget it's a prequel, right? Like, I'm not constantly thinking, oh, they're laying the groundwork for this. Like, we know what's coming next. It's not really about the connections to what's coming for me. If I were watching this without ever having seen the original series, I think I would enjoy it just as much. I think it's built to be enjoyed by people. who have not seen the original series. Yes. And so whenever it seems like they're trying to shoehorn something in just because we need some connective tissue, then immediately I get my hackles up because I'm like, no, I just let me stay with this great cast and crew here.

They're their own thing. They stand on their own. But very rarely do I get that feeling that they are inorganically trying to sneak something in, either as fan service or set up, right? Because it does become kind of a better call, Saul situation where, yeah, you're interested in, are we going to see this character from Breaking Bad? How is this going to connect to Breaking Bad? But also, you just come to care about

the stories that Better Call Saul is telling and the characters in that show, who are in some cases not in Breaking Bad, and it just stands on its own to the point that the whole, how is this going to connect to Breaking Bad, becomes just a secondary conversation that I'm less interested in. So that's how I feel about Strange New Worlds. Like, I love the original series. It's sweet. Like I'm not going to say I don't get a low grade nerd gasm when you see like Kirk meet Spock and Uhura for the first time, even though we've sort of seen that happen in the movies too. But I'm not in it for that, right? I'm in it because I care about this cast and they're continuing adventures more so than the ones that we know are to come. I think I would counter that by saying there's almost a sense of like, like, knowing that something is going to end is what makes it feel precious. So knowing that, like, at a certain point, Benga's going to have to leave the enterprise. You know what I mean?

Or number one's going to have to leave the enterprise or all this sort of stuff like that, that I can't travel with these space friends forever gives it this sort of urgency and poignancy of like, oh my God, I only have, we only have, we only have, we only have 20 episodes in. How many do we have left with these characters that we love? When is this character? Like, I'm, well, like, again, they're being very loyal to canon, actually. Like, you know, there are some slips here and there, but, like, people get concerned, like, oh, my God, are they changing Spock entirely?

And by the end of this finale, we're like, no, we can see how this Spock can still be the spock that we know going forward or something like that, that idea when Boimler comes in and tells Christine, what you got here is so temperate. that I don't even know, history doesn't even know about it. That's kind of how I feel about some of these interactions, some of these friendships, some of these characters, where I'm like, they weren't even talking about you by the time the original series comes around. So like, when are you going to leave me?

When are you, when is someone going to die? You know, like, Hemler as a, as a, Hemmer as a death in season one was a perfectly poignant character death. I thought that was, I mean, but I, but I miss him. And I'm like, I wish he hadn't, you know? And they found a way to, like, bring him back and make his death echo through this season. But you know that that fate either, you know, departure to a fellowship only to return to the trip or something more permanent is coming for, you know, what's going to happen to my girl, La'an? I don't want to watch Strange Worlds without Laan.

So, like, there's a, there's a wall in front of us and we're speeding towards it. Too fast. Slow down. Right. Yeah, that's exactly how I feel. Right. Is Laan the Kim Wexler of Strange New World? It's like every time someone shows up, Scotty shows up and I'm like, oh, cool, Scottie.

But then also, oh, this brought us one step closer to when this series has to end. And maybe that does make it more precious and we can appreciate it because maybe mortality in our knowledge of mortality makes us savor life. Right. But also, I want the show to run for 15 seasons. So I just, I don't want them to use up too much runway, right? I want them to leave some room for this casted crew to establish itself and carve out its own corner of the universe. And I think it has.

But the Hemmer question, they essentially told the actor who plays Hemmer, you got to go because almost no one else can. He was just sort of the sacrificial lamb in season one. And that character connected with people so that they found a way to bring him back via footage. But I don't really feel any reduction in stakes because we know. what's going to happen to a lot of these characters, right? And there are only a few really iconic legacy characters here. You obviously have existing characters who are pretty under explored, Pike and number one in Ders Chapel and in Banga.

And then you have the original characters, too. But I don't really feel like, gosh, I can't get into this because I know that they're going to end up doing this or no one's going to die in this peril of the week, right? Because because of the mostly episodic structure, I don't really have any experience. that there will be lasting consequences. I mean, character development consequences and realizations maybe, yeah, but the old procedural episodic model of TV is you go to a planet, you get into a pickle, you solve some problems, you do it all over again next week, right?

And it's mostly... Some red shirts die. Yeah. And then it's resolved by the end of the episode, unless it's hegemony, the finale of season two. But I don't feel any less investment in this because I know. know that Spock survives or anything like that. You know, I'm not in this really. Obviously, the characters are on the edge of their seats and are worrying about what's going to happen to

them. But I don't want anything to happen to them because they're all dear and precious to me, for one thing. So I don't need their fates to be dangled, right? I don't need their necks to be on the line for me to enjoy this series. But on the other hand, this, again, the series is actively engaging with that by like having Pike know what his future is. Yes, right. You know what I mean? So, like, we know what happens to Pike, and Pike also knows what happens to Pike. So they made that bug a feature of the show, which I think is really brilliant. And I think also there have been so many sort of like alternate, hot forward, Boimler again, showing up and knowing things about them and their future. The show is actively engaging with it. I do have a friend. He's your pal two, Dave Gonzalez, my trial by content co-host, is the kind of person who watches this show. while constantly thinking about where those characters will land in future canon. Like, he was all wound up about the Embanga episode this season because he was like, I feel like Embanga's arced out because this was such a big thing that happened.

And we can't have full fallout reckoning with that until he shows up, I guess, in the original series in the future. You know what I mean? Like, he was all sort of wound up, but that very thing that you said doesn't trouble your brain. troubles a brain like Dave Gonzalez. We love Dave and we love your brain and his brain. All brains matter. But like, I'm with you. And I think partially, I think it's so smart that you brought up Better Call Saul because

I hadn't thought about the fact that like you and I spent many months pondering this very question and sort of working on our feelings about how we felt about knowing the fate of characters and how much that actually doesn't wind up mattering in. the end. It doesn't sap tension. It doesn't, you know, all that sort of stuff. And so, you know, I would just suggest anyone who's wound up about it, just go watch Better Call Saul. It's a great show in all your spare time. And then join us in our can't be bothered phase of life, you know? Yes, please. Yeah. I'm like the guy on the season on Rigel 7 who just forgets everything every day and just lives in the moment. That's what I'm striving for here. I just try to

forget what lore I know and what is coming, just to enjoy what is right in front of me. And I would also say that I appreciate because this is set on the old enterprise, and obviously it doesn't look exactly like the old enterprise, which is interesting, right? I was talking to Jess about this when we were doing our Star Wars Night's of the Old Republic pod that Star Trek redesigns itself in a way that Star Wars tends not to, right? Star Wars just will forever look like it did in the 70s, essentially. And Star Trek doesn't, right? Like, they could have said, no, we will faithfully recreate the enterprise the way that it looked on network TV in the 60s.

Maybe it's just that it looked like it did on network TV in the 60s, whereas Star Wars from the 70s still looks pretty great. And maybe we can credit JJ for this. But we're getting the old enterprise, but a new old enterprise. And I like the look of it because it's a nice blend of, okay, this is not the new, new Star Trek where everything is ultra futuristic. It's just medium futuristic. And it's warm, right? It looks comfortable. It looks like a place where I would want to go on a tour of the stars, right?

I would want to live here. Like the crew quarters and cabins here are just like top notch. Sign me up for a tour of duty on the enterprise because the place is beautiful. So I think they did a good job with kind of nodding to the retro look of the original series, but not being overly beholden to it. So we should talk about the episodic structure and what that enables. And obviously, this is a return to classic trek, and it was sort of pitched that way. And putting aside the Trek tradition aspect, it's just, it's also refreshing. I mean, I prefer serialized storytelling on the whole, I suppose, if I had to pick one.

But when everything is serialized, an episodic, optimistic series that's actually a throwback feels like a breath of fresh air, right? As it was with poker face. I mean, people have made procedurals forever for a reason. And then they fall out of fashion and aren't in vogue. And then you bring them back and you say, wow, it's like when tech people will reinvent a bus or whatever. And it's like, no, we've had these for a while. Like this was a hotel, sir. That is a hotel.

Yeah. So because of this structure, every main character gets an episode at some point, especially in season two. There's a more democratic distribution of screen time, I would say. And the upside of that is that it makes you care about those characters so that when they recede into the background, when they're just part of the ensemble again, they still matter to you. And a facial expression or something they might say carries additional weight because we've spent that time with them. And we, know who they are. One thing I wanted to ask you is about the callbacks to classic Trek episodes because there's a blend of that and, you know, Easter eggs and fan service and also this wild experimentation and we're going to do things that have never been done in this franchise before, right? So as you mentioned, season one and two shot almost back to back. Season two wrapped before the season one finale even aired. Season three is written and was due to start shooting in May before the strike started. And so we have this, you know, they didn't have like a ton of time to digest what worked or what didn't work as well in season one. They just moved right into season two,

but it feels like they still found a way to sort of expand the palette of this series. Yeah, I think that upsides and downsides to that. Like, because they're, well, you know, I don't mean to jump the gun. We'll get to like, you know, what works and what doesn't for us. You know, there are certain characters you're more invested in than others or certain performers that you warm too faster than you do others. And so this is the lost model. I would say this is the lost model of like it's a blank episode even more so than original trek because instead of Captain's Log every week, we get the voiceover of the character whose episode it is. So it is so much more firmly an O'Hura episode and Ortegas episode, et cetera, et cetera. And so I do love that.

I love the Democratic distribution. I love having an insider perspective. I will say there were some times, I think it was more in season one than in season two, where the narration verged on like Carrie Bradshaw sex in the city. It was like, and I can't help but wonder. Someone said that like a couple times and I was like, Carrie, are you here on the enterprise? But yeah, I think that balance is so key. And, like, episode counts matter when it comes to this.

So, like, when we talk about a TV show, like, Lost, and we talk about serialization versus standalone or Next Generation or or Buffy the Vampire Slayer with their, like, 20-plus episode seasons, you could have standalones and, like, long series arcs sort of percolating in the background. And you have that a bit here. In season two, we start talking about the gorn and we end with the gorn. We're not like, you know, we're not cutting away to the gorn every three or four episodes the way you might with like a Buffy Big Bad or something like that. But in a 10-episode season, you can't really do that kind of balance. But what I would argue is something like Picard's season three, which feels like a 10-hour movie, you know, a 10-episode movie.

I like the difference of what we get here. And there's just like there's just constant emotional payoffs. Oftentimes, a serialized storytelling, you don't, you feel like an emotional arc starts and ends in one episode. But, you know, especially when it comes to like the romances or whatever, like those are the things that are sort of,

it's sort of like character movement is burbling in the background. And then the events are neatly wrapped up within the hour. I thought this back half from Brandon's email, Brandon, defender of J.J. Abrams. I thought the back half from his email where he talks about serialization versus not was pretty interesting. Brandon says, they don't make 20 plus episodes seasons of Star Trek anymore, but the beauty of a long season like that is that it gives you more time with these characters more downtime in particular when they aren't dealing with battles and disasters and emergencies.

You can spend a whole day with data in his journey to better understand to become more human. Why not watch a baseball game played between the crew of DS9 and a passing Vulcan ship? Maybe visit the quaint Irish seaside town of Fair Haven in the holodeck as Voyager continues on his journey home or sit back as an interstellar phenomenon causes the crew of the enterprise to burst out into song.

So Strange New Worlds choosing to thread character arcs and growth from episode to episode through the seasons instead of an overarching plot is just a brilliant choice. It lets the amazing ensemble cast shine week to week just like Trek of Old. It gives opportunity for all sorts of episodes from storybooks come to life,

alternate past timelines, animated time travel, and musicals to trials on human rights, the effects of war, and a good old-fashioned season finale cliffhanger about fighting off an invasion. You can feel the effects of previous episodes influencing and shaping the characters, while also being able to dive into a new story each week. Strangy Worlds has truly taken the best of old, trek, and new trick, and has just made great trek. Here's to many more seasons of the Strangistair World. Here's to the writers and actors getting what they are fighting for and eventually returning to production on season three, when the studios come to their senses,

here's to the future Star Trek pods on The Ringer. Yeah, here, here. Well, I agree with that. So say we all. I couldn't help but wonder while we're wondering what this show would look like. If it were given to us more, right, if we got more, it's hard not to get greedy because it is so good. And I know that the quality wouldn't be as consistent.

But it's still hard not to wish that we could spend more time with the series. Because I think there are a lot of advantages to the length of of TV seasons going from 22 to 16 to 12 to 10 to 8 to 6 sometimes. Everything's basically the BBC now. And it's good because it allows people to appear in more projects without siding their entire year and life away. And you can sometimes tailor the length of the season to the story instead of the other way around. So you get some quality control. And maybe it leads to less burnout. Those are all good things. But I think what we miss out on is having more of the very best shows that were capable of cranking out episodes like that because there's just nothing now

like watching a network show in its prime like Lost or the West Wing or the OC or the good wife or the next generation and knowing this is just a staple of my entertainment diet. I can put this on my calendar. It's going to be there. I mean, some of those shows could have benefited from not needing to cram so much story in. But still, it was fun for a while, right, before they ran out of material. And if there were 26 or 24 or 22 episodes of Strange New Worlds, some of them would be duds, but the total entertainment I'd get from that season would probably be greater than it is with a 10 episode season where the average quality is higher. It's sort of why everyone's obsessed with suits on Netflix now. It's like 134 episodes just dropped it once. Like what witchcraft is this?

I could watch the show for weeks, right? Which is great. But again, it's hard to mess with success. I don't want to tamper with how well they're making this work. I didn't know we were in a suit-aissance. I missed that that was happening. Big time. Is now the time for me to repitch you on a show idea I came up with years ago, which is a spin-off of suits with the entire female cast, I guess, minus Megan Markle, who is now busy doing other things, called skirts.

Yeah, it's, yeah, the how I met your mother, how I met your father of suits. That's that you could. Get that made now, I think, if anyone were making anything at the moment. So let's talk about the crew then. You have, it's just anchored by the incredible charisma of Pike and Spock, right? So how are they similar to and different from previous captains and Spock's? What makes them stand out to the degree that they do? I mean, shout out Ethan Peck, you know, Nepo Baby extraordinaire.

Yes. The idea of like Gregory Peck's grandson and icon of classic like Hollywood being Spock is just a really fun proposition. I think the idea that we're getting like, I mean, I know Zachary Kinto is also playing like a younger prequelie Spock, but Ethan Pex feels so much younger and just so much like I can see the threads that are leading towards Leonard Nimoy. but there's just also, especially given that they've put him at the center of two, like, comedy episodes, like hijinks episodes. So you just get like lighter, like puppyish, like Spock and and his, you know, romance arc and all this sort of stuff. And I just think that I love straight man serious Spock, obviously. There's a lot of joy in comedy and, and, and, and, in. inspiration and aspiration to come from that. But I love this like, it feels like, but when he was

younger, he was a little bit more like this. And I love that for him. And then Pike, I mean, I just want to Isabel back to you to talk about the genius of making Pike's favorite hobby cooking. Like, talk to me about Pike and his quarters, you know? There's so much to love about Pike, just aside from the glorious gravity defying head of hair on Pike's peak. Like, we've, we've had hot toupee wearing captains in Star Trek. We've had had hot bald captains, but this is something else, just being filigurally blessed. I can't say that word. But Pike's cabin on the show is, it's my happy place. Like, if I want to close my eyes and just to imagine myself in a better world, it would be in Pike's cabin. That's where I want to live

preferably with Pike. We could be roomies. But either way, that fireplace, you know, I don't even drink really and yet Pike makes me want to have a nightcap with a fine liquor collection. And I barely cook, but he makes me want to put on an apron and just whip up a meal. Like Star Trek commanders often have an anachronistic streak, which we find endearing, I think, because it's quirky and it brings them closer to the way we live. And it makes them seem more like old school, you know, tall ship captains, right, who are sort of steering their own way through the stars. and you got to love Ben Sisko being a big baseball fan, that sort of thing.

And I guess Pike is not the first accomplished cook on Star Trek, but the communal meals are just delightful. It's not just that he cooks, right. It's not just that he cooks, which would be nice. That would be a character trait. But it's the function that that serves. And, you know, he has that sort of, I'm old school. Like, I always wonder when they say that the real thing is so much better than the replicator food. Like, is it really what?

let's do a blind taste test. Is that just bias speaking? Haven't they perfected the replicators by now? But it is much more fun to watch him whip up a meal than just to say I want Earl Gray hot or whatever. So I think when the crew comes together and the fact that he is part of that, right? Like at the very end of next generation, when Picard sits down at the poker table and they're all playing together, that's sort of the same vibe that we get from these communal meals.

but Picard was more removed most of the time, right? He's not fraternizing quite as much. And Pike is very much. He's trying to present. I think he's talked about this sort of new vision of a more sensitive masculinity for a Star Trek captain, right? And sometimes you almost wonder, like, how can he command this crew when he's so buddy, buddy with them all, right? Like, will this compromise his command ability? But it's just really fun to watch how much he cares about them and how much they care about him.

And again, when it comes to engendering that feeling of, I want to be part of this crew, I want to spend time with these people. When they want to spend time with themselves and each other, then that makes us want to get in the action too. I think there's such a difference between Picard's ideal night, which is Earl Grey, Extra Hot, or maybe like a nice, you know, Cabernet, perhaps, and a good book. don't you think by himself you know one leg crossed over the other like you know in a chair reading a nice leather bound

tomb and drinking his beverage that's Picard's ideal night Pike's ideal night is everyone pile into my quarters and I'm going to cook you a meal and I'm going to wear an apron and it might be Julia Child's beef bougainion

as like an apology for his girlfriend or it might be I stayed up all night learning Vulcan delicacies to be like a subsist to dad to my, you know, my science officer, like, whatever it is, it's so warm and welcoming. And it sets, you know, that family dinner, that's in the pilot, right? It's in the premiere of the first episode, right? Or at least in episode two.

Like, two is the latest we get that first family dinner. And it just sets such a tone. It's incredible. Yeah. So which other characters are we vibing with other than those two? And I second everything you said about Spock. I guess there's some danger where if you do go too far away from the Stoic Spock, like the funny, humorous, emotional Spock is more effective and affecting in contrast to the classic Vulcan stereotype Spock. So I guess, you know, if you made him too happy go lucky or emotional, then maybe that wouldn't work as well.

There'd be diminishing returns, but they have not gotten to diminishing returns thus far. And Ethan Peck's just amazing in that role. So we've said that we love Lon. Who else do you care about? Who else do you love on this crew? Who is still sort of leaving you cold, at least compared to our faves? My rider dies are Lon and Sick Bay, like Mbega and Chapel. I really want, Ortegis is so interesting because Ortegas is a character that I think a lot of people were like,

we would like to know more about her. We would like more with her in season two. And we did get an Ortega's narrated episode. But it was like, I, what is it? It's not sail. What is the, I drive the ship? What does she say? I can't remember.

Whatever the ship. Like, it's still, she still feels so two-dimensional. There are ways in which I really, I really enjoy her when she, like, is the third or fourth in a conversation in the bar or something like, you know what I mean? Like there are uses for her, but like it's almost when she's this weird in-between space where they want to make her a bigger part of the whole family, like, you know, a Sulu level sort of character, but they haven't given her enough. And so I just, I feel just a little lost in the middle of like too big to be a true supporting character, but too small to be a true main character sort of I feel. And then I feel similarly about about number one. I love Rebecca Romaine in general, and I think that, like, I love that she loves that she's on the Star Trek show. And I love that her husband, Jerry O'Connell, is on lower decks.

Like, I love that their whole little weird celebrity couple, famous family is part of a Star Trek property. Makes me think of Sarah Michelle Geller and Friday Prince Jr. in the Star Wars universe. But that number one is not fully clicking for me either. But everything else, I mean, like, even Sam Kirk really works for me. And I don't know if I'm going to be the 900th person to say this. I don't know if it's just because he looks like Sam Rockwell from Galaxy Quest. But even knowing Sam Kirk's fate in the original series, like, I just, I like his dynamic with everyone. I love when Spock lost his temper with him.

I love how he and James are interacting. Like, I, it's all, yeah, it's all working for me. How about you? Yeah. I feel sort of similarly. Ortegis grew in me really on season two, so I guess giving her own episode really paid off in my mind.

Una is also the one who just hasn't really clicked for me. And I guess it's partly because that character is kind of buttoned up, right? That's who she is. And she's kind of come out of her shell a bit in season two as the secret she was hiding about her past and identity

came out in the open so that she could reveal more of herself. But even so, maybe it's just that the real, rest of the crew emotes so much and is so much fun to be around and she's a little more rigid. That's just who the character is. But it's just I haven't had quite as much fun in her company, I suppose, so far. And also, I guess, the relationship between Pike and number one, it's not quite giving me like the Kirk and the Spock and the Picard and the Riker, kind of like the close confidant.

Like, I know they have a history and they go way back and they talk in the ready room, but maybe it's just that Pike is kind of everyone's confidante, right? He's just close with everyone so it doesn't feel like as special a relationship between those two. That's a good point. Yeah. And I just don't think that she's had a character yet that she's like really like a little bit with Laan. Like in the musical episode when Lon comes in and is sort of like fizzing with excitement to see Kirk and Oona's giving her shit. I really liked that.

I was like more of that. Like, Lahn and Una, who have their own history together, there are ways in which they've tried to pair them together, like when they were doing the sort of like, scavenger hunt, treasure hunt, whatever on the Enterprise, that episode, that didn't quite work, but there are other moments where it does really work together. And so, like, I feel like they're going to get there. They're, like, almost there with her.

La'an is similarly buttoned up, right? Mm-hmm. But, God. Damn, like, Christina Chung is so good so that when we get, like, when we get a break from her, I've just like rarely been so captivated by a performance in a character. And I'm like, I can't believe I'm ever going to have to say goodbye to you, Laud. I'm so sad. Yeah.

So as a way of segueing into romance, I've been wondering, is this the hottest Star Trek crew ever? not necessarily the horniest Star Trek crew war series, but just in terms of pure aesthetics of wow, all of these people are incredibly good-looking. And there's some stiff competition here when we're talking about previous Star Trek series,

but I just don't know that any previous Star Trek cast or crew can stand up to the pure visual attractiveness of everyone on this series. I mean, yeah, I was thinking about the JJ Abrams crew. I don't want to like... The DJ Abrams crew is pretty special. But then I was like, would we put Simon Pegg in the like scorching hot bucket?

Like maybe not. Like definitely attractive, winning personality for sure. But like what I put him with the like the face melters that are elsewhere in the J.J. Abrams crew, maybe not. The Scotty we met in the finale is quite cute. Like I think you're right. I think the overall average is a little higher on Strachio Worlds. Yeah. Yeah.

There's no weak link here. I don't think. I don't know if it's hot Scotty exactly the way that it's hot Spock, but it's definitely not bad looking Scotty. All right. So that's a way for us to get into the romances. There aren't that many romantic relationships in the show, but the ones that are there, or certainly one that is there, certainly makes its presence felt.

So let's talk about Spock. I don't know if we can call it. A love triangle, exactly. The third point on the triangle never really had a chance. But Spock and Topring, Spock and Chapel, that is clearly the smoldering breakout relationship of this show. And I guess that ties into our earlier discussion of does it matter that we know how this all works out or doesn't work out in their case? Does that make it any less riveting? Because I don't think it does for me. Well, it's interesting because my pal Jordan Hoffman, who's a trek expert, was on the previous Strachian World's Ring or Verse episode that we did. He retweeted the other day a clip from a sort of famous clip from the original series when Kirk, they think Kirk is dead and Kirk comes back and Spock is so happy to see him and smiles. And it's such a rare smile from Leonard Nimoy's Spock that people. people love that scene. But Nurse Chapel is in that scene. And Hoffman was pointing out, like, how, you know, Nurse Chapel is, like, in the background of a lot of Spock stuff in the original

series and has this, like, sort of seeming crush on him and, like, this whole thing. So, like, to have her there to observe that, he was like, it just, it means something a little bit more, something a little bit different now that I've seen Strange New Worlds. And so, like, the joy then is to go through the original series and get to, like, rewatch all of their interactions through a different lens. So that's, that's kind of interesting. I, I love this. I love how I love that they simmered it from season one.

Someone was complaining that they like did it too quickly in season two. I was like, no, it exists in season one and it's paid off. And then it's, and then they don't drag it out and then it's quickly snipped and maybe probably not snipped forever.

But like, I just thought that that was such an interesting payoff for it. I think the two of, what I love, I will say, specifically in the episode where Christine has to go and like sort of beg this entity to turn, you know, in charades the episode that you really like to, to turn Spock back the way he was. I love that she's not like enticed by human Spock, even though he's more emotionally accessible to her and all sorts of stuff like that. She's like, but that's not whose Spock is. And I loved that little element of their story.

Yeah, she's tempted, right? It would be nice to be able to read this guy and if he actually made a move and I knew what he was thinking, but then it wouldn't be the guys that I've had a crush on this whole time, right? So yes, I loved that episode, partly because they finally connected there. And they just have great chemistry together. And I like watching them together. And again, because Spock here is not an automaton, right? And never really was. I mean, Vulcans have emotions, as is always said on. this series. They're just adept at controlling them, right, and repressing them. But here they come out from time to time, and they're very strong when they do. So that relationship, I think, is really working. The other sort of central relationship, which played a pretty prominent part in this season right up through the finale, is Captain Pike and Captain Battelle. And when we were texting about this the other day, I think you said, why isn't this working? And I had the same feeling about it not really working. And my read on that was just that we haven't spent a ton of time with them. That's their whole relationship is that they don't spend a ton of time with each other. Right. So every time we

see them interact, they're talking about the fact that they have no time together, which surely would be a problem if that would be an issue with a relationship between captains who are constantly being sent off to far corners of the universe. But I just don't feel like I have that great a basis for what brings them together other than they understand each other because they're in the same situation and they understand the loneliness of rank and they're able to provide company for each other. But when they spend all of their screen time together, either breaking up or talking about breaking up or pike cooking for her and she didn't even get to eat it because she left before, which I was on his behalf. I wanted to finish the leftovers. But I just

I don't know. I guess that is, if I have a problem with Agemony, which I generally enjoyed, it's just that the cliffhanger here partly has to do with Bettell. And even though I like Bettell, I like the actress who plays Bettell, I just am not really invested in their relationship. Yeah, shout out Melanie Scrafano, Canadian legend of Wannona Earp and Letterkenny fame. I love her. So, like, I was so excited to see her show up. And I love her in the, in the premiere, Season 1 premiere when she's like, you know, they have this relationship, they have this sort of like loose relationship, but she's like, you, you belong out there. Like, I thought that that was a really good. And I like them as sort of like adults with jobs, same jobs who can understand each other. And I sort of liked them

in a sort of looser when we're together, we're together. Because in season one, Pike sleeps, Slips with someone else and it's not cheating on her. That's just like, not, you know, but they, but they did do this push in season two to deepen their. relationships so that the stakes at the end of the finale are what they are. But I would prefer to have them go back to, you know, we are adults who understand each other and have the same job. And when we're in the same port, we see each other. I think that's a really good use of her. Ships passing in the night, literally, right? So. There you go. Yeah. And I guess the other major relationship, although it's kind of confined to a couple episodes, is Lon and Kirk here, or one version of Kirk, at least.

Homefires are still burning for me. I'm still really into this one. I was going to ask if you're shipping anyone, whether it's someone who hasn't had a spark yet or this relationship. So there's still potential here. Listen. I want to respect Carol Marcus. I do.

And I do. But what we know from Canon is that, yes, she is currently pregnant with Kirk's kid, David. We know from Canon. Again, we already said, don't hang too much. on canon and I'm only going to do this now because it serves my argument. We know that, like, Carol was like, stay away from me and my kid, like, basically as soon as he's born pretty much, right? So we're pretty close to a Carol Kirk breakup, and that puts Kirk back on the market.

So I'm not, I'm not put it. Homefire is still burning. And, like, their scene, we're going to talk about the musical episode. And so we'll talk about, like, the musical part of the musical episode. but like their interaction in that episode where she confesses and he like lets her down but admits to a connection with her all this sort of stuff like I can eat it up that's such good television so good both those actors were so good in that scene they only had a little bit of time tomorrow and tomorrow tomorrow was a longer episode than their usual runtime but they only had one episode to sort of sell us on that scene. that her heartbreak at the end of that episode after like, again, a very buttoned up character. So she gets off the FaceTime with him and just breaks down. I mean, I'm all in on my Vévelin and Kirk.

I'm all in. Again, it won't be a forever romance. We know that. But however it's going to go, I'm invested. Shades of Picard Season 3 with the secret Picard kid and Beverly and John Luke. I think that I was watching behind the scenes with one of the creators

and he was like our show is just love stories in space and I was like, okay, great. Yeah, that's all right. Yeah. And I like that they're kind of restoring Kirk's romantic reputation

in that I think he's remembered as more of a lethario and a playboy than he really was in the original series because that kind of became a caricature and maybe that was played up in later incarnations. But originally, yeah, He would sleep with some people that he met on planet sometimes, but there was a lot less of that than I think people remember there being. So is he being a bit more flirtatious than he absolutely has to be here?

Yes, perhaps. But he's not just toying with her on purpose, it seems like. So that takes us to just some individual episodes that we wanted to shout out, some of which we've mentioned already. As we noted, more of an ensemble series than season one. and it was pretty light on Pike early on. And even though I appreciated that we were getting more of a spotlight on other characters, I miss my man, right? And he was out on paternity leave, actually.

So he was being an actual dad instead of playing Space Dad. Yeah. So that's... Oh, handsome Manson. Come on. What a guy. Yeah. So that's, I think, why, or at least part of the reason why he was sort of making himself scarce there.

But that meant that we got to spend more time with other characters. And I wonder how you feel about the Trek trope episodes, because there are some episodes that are like, wow, we've never really seen this before in Star Trek. And then there's some where it fits into a format where we've seen it many times or maybe it's actually playing, very consciously calling out, calling back to a specific episode. So, for instance, you have at Astra Peraspera, right, the trial episode and the legacy of Star Trek trial episodes. tomorrow and tomorrow you have the legacy of time travel episodes and the city on the edge of tomorrow, or you have explicit callbacks to like among the lotus eaters, has callbacks to the cage, or in season one, you know, the Spockamak coming back to a mock time, or balance of power being sort of an inversion of a quality of mercy. So you can take that too far, I think, but do you

think that they have found the right balance with sort of playing with these classic Star Trek tropes and individual episodes while being able to put their own stamp on it. Yeah, I mean, I again, I wouldn't consider myself like a perfect Star Trek scholar, but I am familiar enough that I'm just sort of like, oh,

we're in a trial episode. You know, like, I get it, we do this. This is what we do on Trek. I love it. And I think, you know, some of them more than other, like, at Astra Perespora is like had a killer guest star appearance, but like, as a whole was not my favorite of the season, et cetera,

but like I already mentioned how tomorrow and tomorrow, I would say is like, I don't know. I got a hold of the musical episodes, my number one, but like is probably my number two of the season. Among the Lotus theaters I thought was a little weaker, you know what I mean?

So it's sort of like some of them are weaker than that, but they all have that connective tissue of like you get the scent, when you have that connective tissue, that kind of fan service that is subtly and lightly done, you feel like the show is being, made with love by people who really understand and have studied the source material in a way that I wouldn't say I think J.J. Abrams necessarily has. Like, is he a Star Trek? Does he like Star Trek? Yeah, he likes Star Trek. Does he get Star Trek? Yeah, he kind of gets Star Trek.

Does he know Star Trek? I don't know that he does. I believe these creators do, you know? Right. Yeah. It doesn't feel to me like Star Trek into darkness where it was sort of like the Force Awakens. Let's run it back. Con's back. Let's do that again, right? So it's more creative and inventive than that. I love charades, as you mentioned. It's kind of the comedy of manners episode. And probably the funniest that Spock has been. Also the silliest, maybe that Pike has been. But also like legitimately, emotionally affecting at times, I thought. And also gives you the payoff of Spock and Chapel, right? Just go into the chapel, going to get married. Hopefully, I know it's not going to happen, but I want it to happen somehow. But yeah, the stuff with Amanda in that episode was lovely. Yeah, right. And then those old scientists, of course, the Lower Dex crossover. I know Asoka is the animation to live action crossover we're excited about right now, but this was close for me.

And you got Jonathan Frakes directing. And just I love Lower Decks and to see these characters crossover very much as themselves. And just acting like animated characters on a live action show. which was just an amazing contrast. And also the fact that they were sort of like the voice of the audience and the fans, you know, because there's this satirical element and the way that we talk about the show, they were talking about the show and talking about hot Spock, right? And just like how they crave Pikes respect and affection, they're sort of, you know, the Vox populi here.

So it's really special that they made this happen that it worked so well. Apparently Jack Quaid and Ethan Peck as fellow Hollywood Nepo Babies bonded. to such an extent that they were called spoimler on set, which is wonderful. So I would love if they return the favor, just do like a home in a way, sort of maybe we get a strange New World's crossover into lower decks. But this was just great. And the fact that it happened in this second half of the season that was just exhilarating, just because the wild tonal swings from that crossover episode, those old scientists, to under the cloak of war, the Embanga Chapel dealing with the ramifications of trauma from war to subspace Rhapsody, the musical episode, to Hegemony, the action movie episode of this season.

There just aren't a lot of shows that could or would do that. And it's just so exciting not to know what's coming, right? But to have faith that they can pull it off, whatever it is, whether it's a comedy episode or a horror episode or a romance episode or a musical episode, they have the range to make it work. And they just keep us guessing and being extremely satisfied with the answer. Ben promised me,

we're running a little long. What a surprise. This is my fault, Ben, you know, it's my fault. But Ben promised me I did get to talk for a minute or two about South Space Rhapsody, a musical episode of Star Trek. Oh my God. My sister, who loves Star Trek,

who loves Hansomanza and who loves musicals. She hasn't been watching Strachey Worlds when I sent her like an image of Pike singing. She was like, oh my God, what's happening? I loved this episode. I've been like listening. Some of the songs are straight up not very good. And some of our cast members are auto-tuned to death.

Like absolutely. Not everyone is a great singer in this cast. But I do want to shout out the highlights, which is, again, La Nunean sing. Her ballad, again, I don't really usually love a ballad. that's not my preferred kind of musical number but Christina Chung

like up till then you're sort of like okay these people can kind of sing the computer's helping oh Paul Wesley sounds pretty good like blah blah blah and then she's like guess what I'm an actual singer and you're like shit here we go so she's so good and the way that it again her the way her character

is baked into her fear of being exposed and vulnerable and emotional so when she starts singing, she has to like scurry and lock herself in her room and then be like, this is a security risk. All of us singing is bad for security. I just, I loved all of that. And I thought the chapel number and the Spock column response, the reprise, I thought that was beautifully done. Ethan Peck's baritone is amazing. And then of course, the like, you know, the real

stand out as Celia Rose Gooding. They have an incredible voice that they're giving sort of the ending is handed over to Ahura. It is an O'Hura episode. An actual musical star. Yeah, exactly. So all of that being said, what I want to shout out the episode specifically for is what it gets right that so many musical TV episodes get wrong is it is not treating

the episode like a novelty, like a write-off, nor did it treat the, the, the, lower deck's crossover as a write-off important emotional character things are happening in every episode you're not skipping an episode because you're going to miss an emotional arc and so what is true about a musical episode and they they did a little nod to the buffy musical once more with feeling um with the little bunny's joke in in subspace rhapsody what once more with feeling got right and what this gets right is and they and it's text in the episode of Hura says it, when you start singing, it's because you're so overcome with emotion that you can't contain it anymore. And that's when you start singing. And so big emotional moments and

character movement should happen inside a musical episode. And that's what happens. And once more we're feeling on Buffy, like major relationship movement happens in those episodes. And that's what happens here, right? Like we, Chapel and Spock are over. Lon and Kirk like confront their whole thing. There's, you know, Battel and Pike is a little, like, a little bit more complicated, but like, I, I just, I was so impressed.

I was so impressed. Again, not every, not every song is great. Not every singer is great. But the average is much higher than it usually is for an experiment like this. So, I'm a big fan. And even if it was handsome, Anson getting on the mic, you know,

making it silly, right? Putting his, his pike stamp on it. doing a voice that I did not expect to hear from him and just kind of hemming it up. And apparently Goldsman wanted to do a Picard musical first. And Michael Chabon called Lin-Manuel, who he knew, and Lin-Manuel never called back. And I'm kind of glad that he never called back because I cannot imagine a Picard musical working nearly as well as this did. So again, like even if musicals aren't your cup of tea, I don't know how you cannot appreciate

that they went for it like this. And they really did it legitimately and did something that, you know, we've seen singing and music playing on Star Trek episodes before. But not like this. They really, they did it up. So that takes us to the finale. Definitely a jarring transition, I guess, from the musical to the finale. But again, that's what I expect from this show. And you texted me, you said, tell me when you watch it.

And I texted you back when I watched it. And I said they pulled the best of both worlds, which is, of course, the classic Star Trek, the next generation. finale, the two-parter, where Picard becomes Lakutus of Borg. And by the way, speaking of how we were talking about those shows just being on all the time, the break between seasons three and four of the next generation, which I'm sure seemed like an eternity at the time was three months. It was only three months. That show was always on. So I'm not quite as concerned about Bettell's Gornbite as I was about Picard becoming Borg. Right. But... Especially since that's how Hammer died at the end of last season.

You know what I mean? Like it seems like she's actually more safe because we already got that at the end of season one. Do you know what I mean? Right. Yeah. And I don't know if I would say action episodes are the strength of Strange and Worlds. I don't know that they're a weakness. I think one of the reasons why I don't really feel the absence of the movies is that Star Trek TV looks like movies now.

I mean, the production values are pretty great. So when you get space battles in this show, they look fantastic. but just shootouts and sneaking around just leaves a little less time for us to enjoy the character interactions and the communal meals that we love so much about this series. I think to go back to that idea of Star Trek initially being quite a cerebral show. Yeah. The idea that this is like that Star Trek is picking up from like the Horatio Hornblower tradition of the naval battle or later. the Patrick O'Brien books, as Master and Commander,

like all this sort of stuff like that. When you're doing a naval battle, it's so much more about strategy. It's not a hand-to-hand combat scrap. It's strategy. It's all, you know, I was re-watching this original series episode, the Corbamite maneuver,

when Kirk does his famous, like, bluff, Clint Howard's first and not last Star Trek episode, a bluff about this element called Corbyte. And before he gets on the screen to sort of give this big bluff to this threat about the fact that they are made from this material that will blow up if they shoot at them or something like this, a total lie. He's talking to Spock about, do you have any ideas? Spock is like, I don't know.

And they're talking about chess. And then Kirk says, and the nature of naval battle is more like chess. but then Kirk goes not chess, Mr. Spock, poker. And I just love this idea that like a lot of times the conflicts in Star Trek involve the crew having to think their way out of a situation or imagine their way out of a situation rather than punch or, you know, shoot their way out of a situation. And so that's when you get to something like this. What makes the hegemony work is a lot of, you know, thinking about it. about, okay, we got to look like we're space debris, or we got to put some rockets and some other space debris, or Scotty has created a gorn trap, you know, like all this sort of stuff. It's like, that is the juice of the episode, not how, you know, law on shooting something or something like that, you know. Yeah, I haven't seen that many exciting phaser shootouts in Star Trek history, right? So the less of that, probably the better. But yeah, we get that kind of classic captain going rogue, you know,

meet in the ready room with your officers and say, I'm not going to ask anyone to disobey orders here, but everyone immediately volunteers, which is like kind of coercive, because can you imagine disappointing Pike? Who could say no to that man? But they all do his bidding and they'll go off to save the day or attempt to. And the big bad, of course, of this episode, and I suppose the series as a whole is the Gorn, right? Which are famous, notorious from, of course, the classic, extremely 60s man in a lizard suit-looking confrontation with Kirk in the original series. So you wanted to talk about this. What do you think the choice of making the gorn the big bad and changing how we understand

the gorn and certainly how they look? What does that say about this series? So it allows us to do a little bit of space horror, right? Like we get an overt alien moment with Battelle and the sort of hatchling moment in this episode, right? So that's fun. But I think it is interesting, like, if you think about the overall, like, are our Klingons of villains, our Romulins of villains, like, who are the villains that we're fighting? What does that villain say about what kind of story this show is interesting to tell?

And I was thinking about this question, you know, because in the finale, Pike and Lon and a couple other people who they're talking about and Battelle, is there something about the Gorn that we don't understand that that is what Pike is saying, like, we've learned some things about the gorn that we need to share with everyone. And I was thinking, they're so monstrous. They're not humanoid. They're monstrous. And so there's this Station 11 quote that Mallory and I like to talk about, to the monsters, we're the monsters. I think in a story about scientific exploration to boldly go, etc., etc., I think this idea of encountering an enemy that is even more alien than the aliens we usually encounter in at least modern trek,

and being forced to reckon with better understand, try to connect and make peace, I think that is a really interesting kind of story to tell, especially in a show where they've done such good work this season, dividing the crew between the war veterans, right? Chapel and Benga and Ortegas and the rest of the crew. Who's a scientist? Who's a soldier among this crew? I think that's a really interesting question that they're trying. And then Laan having her personal trauma with the Gorn, informing everything. I don't know.

I just think there's a lot of potential here, and I just thought it was so fascinating. And of course, also there's the meta element of like, let's reclaim something that was famously a hokey joke and make it the scary Raptors and Jurassic Park kind of level of menace here. Yeah. Those are my gorn thoughts. What are your going on thoughts? The attempt, I think, of the whole series is let's just reimagine the original series, as it would be today.

If Gene Roddenberry were writing and making this today, probably wouldn't have a a guy in a lizard suit. So you make it more like an alien sort of situation, alien the franchise. And I think you're right. Like this is the utopian vision of the future. And sometimes it has straight into darker territory in some of the new Star Trek shows and movies. But it's always about finding a peaceful solution and finding a diplomatic solution and how can we connect and what do they want that we can give them and are we just on different wavelengths and how can we find common ground. So are the gorn a species you can reason with? Can you communicate with them? And I assume that the fact that some gorn are hunting collaboratively in this episode, which seems unprecedented or unknown to

the crew, that that suggests that maybe this is a new strain of gorn or maybe these gorn are more willing to work things out in a peaceful way. But again, I guess from canon, we know there's no like massive gorn war or whatever. So I don't know what the potential of it as a galaxy-wide conflict is, but I think they do make a really interesting Star Trek villain just because at least thus far, you can't really defeat them or end up on the same side as them in the same way that you usually can with the traditional track villains. So I am interested. Right. And communication is so much more challenging. Yeah, it's not usually a shoot first and and talk later situation on Star Trek, but that's what happens in this episode. It's almost

jarring like when the Gorn Youngling comes along and they just sort of shoot it on. sight. It's like, that's not Star Trek or that's not Pike, at least, right? Usually you open a channel and you try to reason with them somehow, but that can't happen here at least thus far. And I think the title, like, this is the strangest of the strange new worlds that they're trying to encounter. And I think we're getting little seedlets of this. I mean, this has always been a Star Trek theme, but like in those old scientists, the whole, the whole plot of like the Orion's weren't just pirates. They were scientists too. And Pike having to confront this assumption that he has that, like, there's no way Orion scientists could have discovered this portal. Like, they don't exist. But they do. So, like, you know, it's the old Star Trek. Let's overcome prejudiced and all understand each other a bit better. Right.

And shout out to Martin Quinn as new Scotty, who I think is the first actually Scottish Scotty. So that's something perhaps overdue. It sounds great. So cute. I love him. Great. So to end here, just spinning it forward briefly, what angles, what storylines are you interested in in future seasons? We have the Gorn showdown. We have the integration of Kirk gradually and the bonding of Kirk and Spock that will have to happen at some point. We have the ongoing story of Pike's fate. And does he just accept the fate? Is there a way out of this? We're also attached to him now that we don't want that to happen to him. But maybe there is something. noble and honorable about continuing to do what he does, knowing that that's coming for him and

actually having that happen. And if it doesn't happen, does that mean that there will be even bigger breaks from canon to come? And at what point do you start to incorporate the remaining original series characters who we haven't seen yet? When do you get bones? When do you get Sulu? Again, I'm not sitting here wondering that exactly, but I'm sure that some people are. I mean, yeah, if we get a new, you know, if we get Sulu at the end of season three and then like Bones at the end, you know, I think Akiva said that the introduction of Bones is where he wanted to like end things. Like that that was a good finish line because Bones is not in the original pilot. I mean, no one is with Scott, Spock. But I think I think Bones is the last character to have been added.

to the lineup. I think that's true. Because there were some other doctors that they were working with before. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I'm with you where like, what if this just runs forever? Would I be mad about it? Probably not. But also, I don't know. I've learned my lesson. I think five perfect seasons of Strangy Worlds. That's what I want. Five perfect seasons. And then to always say, oh, they ended too soon, but to never veer into, oh, they stayed too long. You know, that's where I'm... Yeah.

My hope is that because it is only 10 episode seasons that... I mean, if you divided next generation, which was good for quite a while, if you split those 20-plus episode seasons into multiple seasons, then that would have been a really long-running show. And they made it work, again, with some bumps along the way. So, yeah, my hope is that this can run for quite a while, that it's found its footing, that it's found a formula that is recyclable, repeatable. Obviously, there are certain character beats that can't be replicated over and over again, but the adventures of the week, I'm in as long as they want to keep making this series. So if Bones is the finish line, then I hope we are a long way away from meeting Bones because I'm in no rush to get there. Regrettably, I suppose we've reached the finish line of this particular podcast, which had to happen at some point. And I hope that much as that episode was a to be continued, that this podcast will be a to be continued.

as well. We have lowered X coming back next month. I don't know how the strikes will affect Strange New Worlds. The production's been delayed, obviously. So there might be a longer wait to get resolution to this episode than we had back in the 90s with next generation. But it will return at some point. And we are certainly willing and eager to cover it. So if you listen, podcasts will come, I guess. But I'm glad we got to do this one. Is that a Field of Dreams reference on a Star Trek podcast? Yeah. Love that, Ben.

Love it. Well, thank you for joining my away team here. I would always want you on it. And you were the perfect partner for this. And I'm glad that we could take it from the private communication to the public and let everyone share in our love for this series, which I know that a lot of our listeners share as well. So thank you, Joanna.

Thank you for having me. And thank you to Carl Sturiboga for producing. today. Thanks to Arjuna Ram Kapal for putting us together for this episode. Stay tuned for coverage next week of Harley Quinn and Prep for Asoka and the Blue Beetle. And we will let the cast of Star Trek Strange New Worlds play us out.