The Ringer-Verse - ‘Stranger Things’ Season 4, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive | House of R

Episode Date: May 27, 2022

Mal and Jo take a trip to the Upside Down to discuss the first three episodes of ‘Stranger Things’ Season 4. They start by talking about their ‘Stranger Things’ journeys and why Netflix decided to split the season into two parts (7:23). Then they discuss how Eleven and the Byerses are adjusting to their new lives (30:52), before talking about what is going on in Hawkins and the season’s villain, Vecna (53:46). Later, they get into some of their favorite Easter eggs so far in the season (1:17:01). Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, guys, Rachel Lindsay here, and I am teaming up with your favorite Ringer podcasters to deliver the Bravo drama and news that you've been craving on Morally Corrupt. It's the show about all things Bravo, from the housewise to summer house and everything in between. We'll be mentioning it all every week. Check it out on Spotify and the ringer.com. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Trimphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks,

followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Trimphia, proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk, risk of infections or lower ability to fight them and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection,

flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimfaya today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfair radio.com. This episode is brought to by Boris Head. What if we told you the taste of deep-fried turkey is now available at your local deli. Well, Boar's Head just did that. Bursting with flavor, perfectly seasoned with that indulgent taste that usually means pointing your whole day around it,

presenting the Friars Turkey Breast only from Boar's Head. The backyard tradition now available behind the counter. Visit your local deli today. Discover the craftmanship behind every bite. Boershead committed to craft since 1905. Hey, folks, this episode of How Sovar was recorded earlier this week before the events in Yuvaldi, Texas. And though the podcast itself has been edited with sensitivity towards those events,

we wanted to give you a blanket warning at the top here to let you know that we will be discussing some of the violent events and actions that take place in this season of Stranger Things. If you choose to join us for that discussion, we're so glad you're here. Welcome into the Ringiverse, your nexus podcast feed for all things. fandom and we mean all because even though there's so much going on everywhere all at once I'm here to talk to you about stranger things joining me of course my favorite member of the Hellfire Club it's Mallory Rubin hi Mallory Joanna that's the

purple palm tree delight work in its magic uh California legal all right so here we go there's a lot to talk about. We're going to try to get it all here for you. We're going to explain our Stranger Things Rollout release. We're going to explain everything that's going on in the feed, so let's start there. Porking reminders. Okay. Stranger Things, it's dropping in a binge, a big old binge, right? Not the full season, but a big chunk of the season. So here's what we're going to do for you. We've broken this up into little demi-dog digestible chunks for you, okay? Demi-bats. Ooh, yeah, little niblets.

So here, Mallory and I are to talk to you about Stranger Things, Season 4, Episode 1 through 3. That's what we're doing today, right? And then on Sunday, we'll be back again in your ears to talk to you about Stranger Things Season 4, 4 through 6. Oh, but that's not all. No. No, because we'll be back again on Tuesday to wrap it all up with Stranger Things Season 4, episode 7. A two-hour-plus episode of television. Oh, no, that's a finale.

No. But a long episode of television, regardless, we're here to talk about all of that. So that is Volume 1. Yeah. We'll have that two-hour-plus Volume 2 pod coming for you later, though. Check back in July. In July. We'll be back for that, right?

Okay. So all that's happening in the feed, that's how we decided to roll this out. Because there's a lot of other stuff going on, and you might want breaks. You might want to switch things up. So we're coming to you on a Friday, also on your feed on this feed on a Friday. the Midnight boys talking about Obi-1 Canobi ever heard of it. But even beyond that, folks, speaking of Star Wars, the whole ringer versus crew, barring me, but that's okay, everyone else, is that Star Wars celebration. They're doing a live show and there's going to be panel reactions.

There's going to be all kinds of Star Wars goodies in your feed from the crew at Celebration. So, listen, there's a lot of content coming. Yeah. And then we have our Obi-1 deep dive, Joe, on House of Art on Monday. There's so much I almost forgot. Guess what? Mallory and I get to talk about our favorite character of all time and our favorite actor of all time, Obi-Wi-Kanoi. On Monday. Okay. Mowley, quick question. Yeah. How can folks keep track of all of this content coming out? Oh, boy. Whether you are in Hawkins, whether you are in Lorna Hills, if you're in the upside down, wherever you may be, folks, if you have an internet connection. Here's what you can do. You can follow the pod on Spotify or wherever you get your

podcasts. And you can follow the ringerverse across our many and a varied social feeds. We are everywhere. The ring of our social presence is always a joy, but Jomey's going to have some special stuff for everybody over this weekend. He's got some ideas cooking for Star Wars celebration. He may or may not have begun this Zoom by featuring numerous lightsaber props. even though we're here to talk about Stranger Things. We're splendid lightsaber. Yeah. You're always going to be on the socials for Ring or Verse,

but you're really going to want to be on it for this weekend as the gang is in takes Anaheim. The gang takes Anaheim is what's going to happen. If you're there, if you're at celebration, come to the live show Friday. Yeah. 2 p.m. Come say hi. They're really, these are my favorite people in the world. You should go see them and say hi to them.

Spoiler warning. Okay. Before we get into all this. Okay. So as I mentioned, we're breaking this up into chunks. We are not spoiling. Demogorgans love chunks. Anything beyond episode three of this season, right?

So if you've only watched that, you've binged one through three, and then you're like, oh, I think I'll take some fresh air or something like that, and I'll listen to Mal and Joe talk about it. We're not going to talk about the later episodes. We're going to wall it off chunk by chunk. So, but everything else, Stranger Things, is on the table. Previous seasons, interviews that the creatives have given, No interviews are too spoilery here, but just to let you know.

We got some interviews to talk about. Trailers. Okay. Posters. Posters. Twitch from the official feed, merch. So, okay, so we're covering episode one, the Hellfire Club. But in case the Duffers are listening, we won't be spoiling things that we saw in the Monopoly game.

Don't worry. Yeah. I haven't even, I actually haven't even seen that Monopoly game. Me neither. I don't know what the Monopoly spoilers are. I just know that there are Monopoly spoilers and that everyone was very upset about it. What could they be? I don't know.

All right, so episode one, the Hellfire Club written and directed by the Duffer Brothers. Episode two, Vekness Curse, written and directed by the Duffer Brothers. And episode three, The Monster and the Superhero written by Caitlin Schneiderhand and directed by executive producer Sean Levy. I'm going to do my best 1980s film trailer guy impression for you right now. Mallorraine, it goes like this. A new horror is beginning to surface. Something long buried. Something that connects.

Everything. That was amazing. I love it. Can you start sending me voice memos using that voice instead of text messages? Now that I've started sending you and Arjuna voice memos from Adam impersonating Vecna. That was so terrifying. By the way, Mallory's husband does a terrifying Bechna impression. And when you hear your own name.

It's scary. I sent it to Joe and Arjuna last night because I needed someone to share in my pain because I kept hearing from around the bend. as I was prepping for the spot. Valerie. He was like Joanna. Arjuna. Your time is up.

I was like, geez. It was a lot. Anyway, let's talk about, okay, let's put Becknan on hold for a second and Adam's scare tactics on hold for a second. Talk about the larger Stranger Things snapshot. This is the first time that you and I have ever gotten to talk. Well, we did a little bit on the hype meter, but like, this is our first real discussion about Stranger Things.

And this is a show. that has been running since 2016. It's like two moves ago for me. I was remembering which house I was in. I was like, wow, it was forever ago. Mallory, what's your relationship with Stranger Things? Joe, thanks for asking. Yeah, happy to.

The first time on a pod that I, you know, have like a deep intake of breath, change my posture and thank my co-host for posing a question is when everyone on Zoom becomes really afraid about whether we're going to miss our runtime goal. Are you a mind player? That's like 100% one went through it. So it's like just so everyone knows.

I can see it. Just so everyone knows it is my job this week. Because we're doing three Stranger Things podcasts, we're going to try to not make them two and a half hour podcasts, right? Vecna's clock is ticking. Yeah, exactly. The clock in the forest and or the high school hallway, like while the weird tendrils from the upside down are coming through. Boy, may we need a better faith than Chrissy and Fred.

My relationship to Stranger Things is that I love it. It is a favorite of mine. Season one is one of my favorite seasons of TV. I've rewatched it many, many times. I always love returning to it, rewatching it ahead of the season four volume one drop over the last week plus. I just marveled at what a tight, perfect little jewel of a season of TV that is. I think I'm higher on season two than maybe some others are. I remember so vividly watching that in real time and texting with,

Jason and like not only just getting so much joy out of the references that are always so present in a stranger thing story, but really reflecting on the fact that we're watching shows now made by people like the duffers who grew up loving the stories that all of us grew up loving and how really like rich and rewarding that is. I loved season three. Love the season three finale. Joe, it'll stun you to hear. Left me. Tears reduced to a puddle on my floor and then sobbing. into a microphone with Christopher Ryan on the watch right here in the Ringer podcast network. The Hopper Letter and that whole sequence at the end of season three is really one of my favorite stretches. Again, so on brand, favorite stretches of stranger things. I love the world. I love the kids. And I think the thing that really stood out to me, even though I think some of the past couple seasons have been uneven,

the thing that really stood out to me rewatching and the thing that really got my anticipation for season four bubbling is how attached I am to the kids. Like how fond I really am of the characters and how deeply I care about them. Because you noted 2016, we've spent many, many, many years with these characters now. And we've also now spent many years away from them because it's been three seasons since we were last with them. And so I've missed them and I'm really excited to be back in the world. How about you? What's your Stranger Things relationship?

Yeah. So I, when I first saw, like I got the screeners. I remember back in the day, 2016, before anyone had watched it. And I watched it and I was completely sucked in. It was summer. It was like sticky outside. We were all like eating popsicles and watching straight. And it just like felt like the most like nostalgic summer vibe thing I could ever possibly hope for.

And then here's the thing that, I don't know, a lot of people do know about me. Sometimes when things get too popular, I get a little crusty about it and not as like not as in love as like a small little jewel that I'm like, look at this. Little Netflix Jewel. All I knew was that Winona Ryder was in it. That's it. And then, so season two and three, I've been a little less all in on. But I think I completely agree with you that there are certain characters that I am deeply, emotionally invested in. And so we're going to talk about this season about how things spread apart.

I'm not emotionally invested in every single character. But there are some characters that I care truly, madly, deeply about. And we, I, okay, I'll speak for myself. I had a little apprehension coming into this season. with some of the runtimes that was happening, with how I felt about some things that happened in season two and three, and you and I've already texted about this. Like, do I have some quibbles about this season?

Yeah, we'll talk about them. But my enjoyment of being back with some of these kids who are now very tall, just turned it into sort of a blast for me. I watched all, you know, as much as I could, all in one sitting. So I think that, I don't know, maybe I'm back around, maybe I've come back around because there is some sort of stranger things backlash and I'm like back in and protected.

Full godfather three. They pull you back. I have a question for you that I'm really interested in and knowing the answer to because something that I do know about you, Mallory Rubin, is that you do not like horror. Hate it. And Stranger Things, you know, is, guess what? A horror show with monsters and gore and like Stephen King references wall to wall. So how do you account for yourself, Mallory?

How do you reconcile your horror distaste for your Stranger Things love? Joe, it's a great question. I don't really know the answer. I've been thinking about this since you asked me the other day when we were texting watching the first few episodes. And maybe I'm just maturing. You know, at the tender age of 35, maybe I'm growing into myself at last. It's possible. I will say that stranger things, I do find it scary. Like, it's not like I have no moments watching it where I'm startled. I definitely like to have, you know, I don't want our pal Neil to hear this and yell at me about not having the right lighting in my living room while watching a lot. show. I have the light low enough that I can see the screen properly. Okay, Neil, I promise, but I like some lights on in surrounding areas, like around corners, around bends, anything to enhance my comfort. And I think something about the charm of the show and the charm of the world feels like a little patroness to me that allows me to make it through the scarier elements and feel like safe and okay. And I think this does connect to what we were just both saying about the show overall and how much of the fondness that we carry for it connects to the characters and their

arcs and their relationships crucially with each other. Because I will say one of the things that I've had like a little bit of how will they land this reflection on is the mythology, which I am less attached to, I think, than the characters. And I'm fascinated to see how not just in volume one, but volume two also given how much of the press that the Duffers and everyone else involved with the show has been doing hinges on, you're going to get answers, right? I'm really fascinated to see how true that winds up being across season four, both volumes as a whole. And how many of those answers are quite scary because the upside down, Vecna, whatever kind of supernatural force we're facing, startling. One of the things that I love about this season overall, though,

just to preview, and for the first few episodes here, is sometimes the scariest thing, Joe, was just growing up. High school's hell, haven't you heard? Okay. So let's talk about some of like non, less personal, bigger picture questions, right? So you mentioned the split. We've talked about the split. This is such an interesting moment for Netflix. I was listening to some pals of mine talk about this show and wonder, in this moment of time for Netflix, which, as has been reported, they're losing subscribers. They've had to cut some jobs.

It's sort of like a Titan Belt time for Netflix. And yet, Stranger Things is something, of course, that they're still deeply, deeply investing in $30 million per episodes. reportedly investment, right? So the question is, is this split here where we're getting seven and then two? Is this, as is with some other shows that are currently splitting, a way to get in under the Emmy deadline, which is this weekend, suspicious timing? But Strangely think has never been a huge Emmy player. So is it instead a split to make sure that people are stays. over multiple quarters, investment quarters, because if you want to see the conclusion of this,

you're going to have to keep your subscription at least through, you know, the last two episodes, right? Whatever that case may be, there's a lot of pressure on the show right now as a tent, as like one of the last Netflix tent pole shows. But a couple friends of mine were saying, and I thought this was really interesting, that maybe this could have been a time, you know, Joe's on this call, we're going to hear from it a little later. Jomi, are a number one, like, circle fan. Netflix does some week-to-week releases, right? would what do you think this season of Stranger Things should have been a week to week release for Netflix? Without question.

I think this is a huge, huge, huge, huge miss. And to be clear, that doesn't mean that I don't think Stranger Things season four will be hugely popular. I'm sure it will be. Our colleague and pal Ben Lindberg wrote a great piece today for the ringer.com. What a great website. Assessing those questions and others, including just the landscape in which season four of Stranger Things is airing. And that's Netflix specific in some cases, but also just the wider streaming landscape. And also the wider nerdverse, the number of shows and IP machines that exist now that have asks on our time that draw our attention.

It's just a completely different equation than it was, both for fantasy stories and in general, when season three aired three-ish years ago. Stranger Things had the belt, right? Stranger Things was one of the main zeitgeist driving not only nerd culture stories, but TV shows, period. Can you capture that again? It's all relative, given the extreme heights of the popularity of the show and the sensation that it was at its absolute peak. One of the ways I think to, if not guarantee that, at least help ensure it is weekly, because that's the way the conversation around TV works now. We've switched so quickly back to people craving. I mean, thank God for us as podcasters, because we're, we love it for content.

But I think, you know, if we're being really sincere about it, part of the way that we approach our pods and a lot of the coverage that we do here is how would we want to talk about this with our friends, right? And it's what draws you back in week after week to continue that conversation. I, as a person, love to sit down and watch, you know, 10, 12, 14 hours of TV in a row. Like I have watched, I think, 14 episodes of Game of Thrones in a row on a Saturday in my life before. That's not something I mind, but I do find it. And I had a blast doing it, folks.

Can't wait to do it again one day. You just cannot sustain the same hold on the cultural conversation when you're dropping all at once as you can if you're week to week. I think it's just irrefutable at this point. So I do think that's a miss. I wonder if they'll do it for season five. Yeah. And like, you know, given our program reminders, like this is going to, drop. People are probably going to, you know, it's a holiday weekend. People are going to be outside,

but, you know, they're going to come inside. They're going to watch Stranger Things. They're going to want to know what's happening. In the gap, the several weeks between, you know, this binge and the final two, it's not going to be filled with people wondering what's going to happen on Stranger Things because they're going to be watching the boys and they're going to be watching Obi-1 Canobi, and they're going to be going to see Thor, you know, like all this stuff is happening. So, you know, that is something to think about. And then also there's this gap. There's a lot of questions about whether or not, you know, Stranger Things has been away from us since 2019, pre-pandemic, right?

And so a lot of the delay here is COVID-related. They started filming. They had to shut down, all that sort of stuff. The kids are growing older. One year passes for each season of Stranger Things, but, you know, it's been six years in these rapidly growing, some of them very, very rapidly growing, you know, young actors' lives. there's a little nod to this at the beginning of the season

when 11's writing her letter and she says Day 185 feels more like 10 years. Get it? Because Mike is now 100 feet tall. So I think that's an interesting thing. But something that they've said, and this is sort of like the last big picture thing that I want to talk about,

is that in that COVID pause, like a lot of projects that experienced a COVID pause, that meant the creators could go and find to, and rewrite and stuff like that. So they had started shooting, they paused, they rewrote some things. One thing I noticed is that this season opens with Robin having a crush on a girl

who is played by an actress I recognized Amy Beth McNulty from Anne with an E. And I was like, oh, is she a major new character this season? I guess one tiny spoiler I will drop, no. And that feels to me like a thread that they were just sort of like, maybe not. Maybe we won't do that, do you know? And so I'm deeply curious and we may never get the answers. What else was sort of changed and moved around in the fine tuning of it all?

I love that you mentioned the feels more like 10 years line because that did feel like such a meta moment in a line to the audience, a little winked us. There were a couple like the line about how Joyce likes working from home, you know, just the speaking to the... But does she? But does she? Yes. Can't wait. Can't wait to. go on her next adventure. But, you know, speaking to the audience that has also lived through this pandemic. And the other thing, though, about that timeline in particular, it made me think more broadly about the way that the show engages with time and with its past seasons. Like she continues to say, Joyce says time is funny like that. Emotions can make it speed up or

slow down. We are all time travelers if you think about it. And one of the things that I really enjoy about watching Stranger Things is that there are so many lines like that. There are equivalent lines in the letter from Hopper at the end of season three where you can parse them and assess whether you think they're clues for the plot. Are they actually pointing us in a certain direction in terms of the mythology and lore and how the story will shake

out? You think back again to the time travel question of how at the end of season three, this was such a big talking point because remember when she's reading Hopper's letter, we see the kids packing up, saying goodbye, driving away, and then we see all of that again, back in the house reading the letter. And that,

coupled with the role back to the future played in season. Season three, it's like, are we going to time travel? And you get a moment like this, you wonder again, right? But I think that the answer ultimately doesn't matter because it's just so thematically rich as we watch these characters grow through the formative years of their lives. And one of the things I enjoyed most about season three was the way that the character started to grapple with what it meant to grow apart from each other. And I felt that so, so, so keenly in the first three episodes of this season. And so one of my favorite things about this batch, which I think overall kicks. is a great and natural stopping point for us for this first pod because the end of

episode three kicks off where really the season is going to go. We have three plus hours that are ultimately, here's what the season will be about. Here's what the major plot points will be. You know, and that's when we want to quibble about the season and we want to ask, like, do all the episodes need to be this long? I think you and I would agree that no, that there's like some padding in here. Like, we're happy to spend time with these characters. but there's some spots in this season, or at least to me, I won't speak for you.

There are some spots in the season that feel a bit self-indulgent when it comes to just sort of luxurating in something. And I don't need to be, you know, impatient. I love a luxuriation, but like... I mean, yeah, you're one of the hosts of House of R. Slop to luxury in a podcast. Does the podcast need to be this longer than necessary runtime? Listen, if I ever podcast... my getting ready in the morning, Matthew Modin routine to start a multi, multi-hour season of television,

that's when you know I've gone too far. Joanna. Yeah. The absolutely iconic flex of opening the season with a timer and then having episodes this long, unbelievable stuff. You love this. You love to see it. You love to see it.

Are you a crossword person? I'm a huge crossword person. I grew up to, are you a crossword person? I used to not be. And recently, like, during COVID, I've really. really gotten into them. Yeah. I used to resent them because I don't like things that make me feel stupid ever. And now I love them and I love the challenge and I love to feel like I'm using my brain and evolving. I actually have like a really emotional attachment to crosswords because I

have a pretty dicey relationship with my mom. But whatever else was going on, we could always sit down and do a crossword together is like something that we did growing up. Here's the thing I will say about and his crossword. Given that this is like obviously his routine and he does it every morning, really amateur move to do it in pencil. I was going to say, like show some fucking courage and use a pin. Or Sharpie. Commit.

Absolutely. Yeah. None of this pencil business. All right. So part of the spread of the season and circling back to some of the thematic stuff you were talking about is this idea that like, so these kids are these tiny kids that we met in this sort of Amlin era kids on bikes. having an adventure story that Stranger Things started as, they are, in some cases,

unbelievable high school students now, right? And that means that the content of the season has changed a bit. Something of the Duffers said about Stranger Things in the first places, they sort of thought of it as three different kinds of nostalgia, right? Like, the kids are in a Goonies movie. The adults are in Jaws and Close Encounters. and the teens are a nightmare on Elm Street or Halloween. But there is no Goonies level anymore on Stager Things.

Those young kids are now, you know, preteens or teens. And so everything is nightmare on Elm Street all the time, which is why I was worried about you when my close captioning read, flesh distending wetly. A lot of squelching wetly as well. Yeah. But flesh distending, tough. There's also the spread. And this is how we're going to organize. our conversation today. There's also the spread

of the characters across the map. We're not just in Hawkins or ill-advisedly on a road trip to Chicago. We are in California. We are in Indiana, and we are in Alaska slash Russia. So those are our three sort of settings. And that's how we're going to talk about things here.

The Duffers, way back in 2019, when it was still cool to do so, sort of likened this idea of the spread to Thrones when we used to watch a season of Game of Thrones. and you might spend an episode or two or three not even seeing a character that you cared about. Like you would watch the opening credits and the camera would zoom around the map and you're like, oh my God, are we going to ever go back to the Citadel or whatever the case may be? Everyone clambering for Citadel content, right? Who's the candidate in that case for a Ken Gendry run that fast kind of development here on Stranger Things Season 4?

I don't have a great answer for that. Can Dustin get around town that quickly without a car, maybe? Is what I would say. But yeah, so we're in a spread. And something that you said to me over Texas, you were sort of like, maybe you didn't love that aspect. Or it wasn't, you weren't used to. You were used to the kids are such a core tight group, except for poor Will who is like forever in the upside down or like sweating it out in bed or something like that. Like, what are you?

Yeah, phrasing. Sorry. What are your feelings on the, on the cohesiveness of the groups this season? I'm of two minds on it. Okay. I've got the Hawkins portion of my mind and then I fall into the upside down. I think that in certain ways, it is brilliant to expand the cast. I mean, first of all, it's just lovely to get to have characters like Murray Bauman or a new character like,

Argyle or Eddie, obviously last season gave us Robin. If you could keep things super contained, you don't get a Robin and you don't get a Robin and Steve. And like Robin and Steve is one of my favorite things that's ever happened in Stranger Things. So, on the one hand, I love the experimental instincts. I love that the creators trust their ability and the cast's ability to find

this very authentic rapport and chemistry with each other. And when you get one of those magical pairings, Dustin and Steve is I think the best example, certainly my favorite example, it's like really a joy to behold, right? And it's one of the things that really heightens your relationship to the show and your investment in the show. It reminds me, I've given this, you know, comp many times on ringer pods before, but it reminds me of in the MCU when you're mixing and matching characters all the time, how are you going to keep people content when they're away from the heroes they're most invested in? you've got to trust that when Thor and the Guardians are together, it's going to be electric, right? So you've got to trust that when Dustin and Steve are together, it's going to be electric. And it was, and it is. It remains so.

So I love that. It can unlock something unforeseen that we never could have anticipated. The problem can be or the challenge can be that at some point, there are too many pieces in the pie for the pie to be the same pie you loved so much in season one, which was all of those kids together. that ET riding our bikes through the neighborhood and really thinking about the fact, now maybe it's scary like it is here, maybe it's wonderful, that your house can be a castle, as our pal Christopher Ryan was saying on the ET rewatchables recently.

And your neighborhood, the streets that you walk down every day can be the portals into something totally out of this world, right? Maybe quite literally, into a portal, into another dimension. I don't want to go too long without Mike and Will and Lucas and Dustin and Max and L being together. I just miss that dynamic. It doesn't mean I'm not fond of the other dynamics that have sprung up, but I do find myself longing for that and wondering how the core, core, core beating heart of the show can keep pumping as more and more Vecna vines to stand from it. Maybe the answer is it's all a hive mind. Well, and what's true is that if you add and add and add to a cast, yeah, like if you give screen time to an Eddie or, you know, etc., you lose time with some of your quirk kids.

Unless the episodes are credibly long. Unless we're time traveling and we're going to do it all again but differently in season five. All right. So let's start actually counterintuitively to how I usually like to do things. We're going to start with, I think, what people consider the star of the show, which is 11, Millie Bobby Brown. As you know, I consider the star of the show. And I consider it's Steve's hair.

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So we're going to start with the California kids, as we're calling them, with 11. So we start with the flashback, 1979 at the Hawkins Lab. You did a full rewatch before watching the season. I did like a spot rewatch and some furious YouTubing and like all this sort of stuff to try, some wikiing to try to catch up. As far as I know, this is new information for us about what happened at the Hawkins Laboratory. Yeah. Well, I say definitely as a person who has gone fully into rewatched three seasons of TV in one week.

And instead of remembering it all, you remember none of it territory. But yes, definitely. I'm saying it with confidence. New territory. And it helps inform to us, you know, what we see here. Bodies everywhere and what have you done from Brenner. September 8th, 1979. So this is also a new moment in the timeline for us because that's like a crucial thing too. You know, season one is set in November of 1983. So this is four years prior to our original introduction to Elle. And we had seen flashbacks to like the moment where. with Jane's mom walking in and seeing young 11 and young 8 together, for example. But this moment in time is a new crucial sequence. And I'm really curious to know what you thought of it as an opening note for the season, but also, of course, curious to know what you thought about de-aged L in our era of D-aged Mark Hamill.

I thought it worked in this sequence. It's not the last time we're going to see D.H.L. And I'm not sure it's successful all the way through. but in this moment screaming with the blood on her face, I thought it worked really well. And also Matthew Modine's 1979 wig worked really well for me. Great hair. As is often the case,

just astonishing hair across the entire season. I don't know how much time we'll have to talk about Karen Wheeler today, but shout out to Bono and that perm. You text me this year like, I can't wait for you to see. Carbone's wig. Anyway, yeah. I mean, wig watch with Joanna Robinson is one of my favorite ringer traditions. This is quite a wig season.

And I was like all in on the wigs and you were like, you haven't seen Bono's wig yet. And it's true. Okay. But as time cop, it is my duty to get us back on track here, which is anything else we need to say about 79. We're obviously going to come back to it. I think it's an intriguing place to start. It gives us some information and some mystery at the same time. Yeah.

We'll come back to it in our next couple of pods, certainly. I think the two things I will say quickly for now, one, the choice to open with this and introduce this doubt for us, for the characters, as viewers, for the characters in the show, what happened here? What are the people that we've been watching really capable of? You see not only the blood everywhere, the bodies, twisted limbs, bleeding eyes everywhere as you see the shattered mirror or the crack in the wall. Like, what happened and what does it mean and how much of that doubt are we really supposed

to be leaning into versus rejecting, right? That's one interesting thing. much more broadly in terms of the show overall, I love the fact that they went back to Hawkins Lab and the other kids and introduced the other kids because it would have been so easy not to do that after the response to season two and eight. Like so easy not to do that.

People really didn't like that. And I think that even as a person who tried to watch those episodes with a more charitable eye, like it did not feel like an episode of Stranger Things. And I like the desire to try to still go back to that aspect of mythology because we need to understand it. We have to. I think my main issue with that is it felt like such a sweaty backdoor pilot to a potential spinoff that it just didn't feel right at all. Right.

All right. So zooming forward in time, we get what they've decided to do with Elle, given that her father figure in Hop is dead as they think. And the idea, I guess, is that she's going to live with Joyce. She's supposed to be disappeared. But she's just living with the buyers in California. As you noted to me, this is real Obi-Wan rocking Luke off with Uncle Owen energy here. I wonder if they mean old Ben Kenobi. I just don't.

This is like, we just have to nitpick for a second here. We get this later sequence with Owens and Sullivan in this batch of episodes. the idea that they cannot find 11 is preposterous. It is established that they spy on people, that they're listening to calls. We see a shot of that in this batch of episodes. This is still happening. It's also established that Mike and Will have talked on the phone,

albeit not as often as Will would like, which we'll get back to. She is living with the buyer's family whom they could have tracked. They're still using their names. And her new fake identity is Jane Hopper, the last name of the person they knew she last was with. How can they not find her?

Also, I want to love and support Joyce. But the choice to just drop Elle in public school with her, like, gaps in her education and lack of social skills and trauma is not a great choice for Joyce or anyone. I would have homeschooled Elle if I could have for a little while. you know what is jonathan doing other than shanking golf balls can he not tutor her like what's going on i feel like they really leave her out to dry not only that but like she so she gets horribly bullied this is my any issue i have with stranger things is like monsters from the upside down i'm fine with the preposterous bullying sometimes i'm like is anyone actually that cruel i don't know i was bullied

plenty as a kid but like it it never went to these levels but that will also just kind of lets it happen. I mean, maybe that's just an indictment of his character in general, but it's just sort of like he's just sort of passively concerned, but not actively involved. Do you have any thoughts or feelings about that? I was struck as well by the number of moments where Will is watching. And he looks pained. You know, it's very sweet elsewhere in the episodes to hear him, you know, and Jonathan, too, they say that they're Elle's brothers and this family, this found family thing, which I love. I think with Will, I feel so tenderly toward Will in general, and he has been through so much that on the one hand, I thought one of the things that was compelling about these initial episodes, this question of like what 11 is lying to Mike about and how she wants him to believe that she has all these friends that she's doing well in school. And we see really that she is being picked on, being bullied, cruelly bullied by Angela and her whole cohort.

And Will saying to 11, why wouldn't you tell him the truth? and Mike's, and then the whole, we'll talk about Mike and Will in a few minutes, like, one of the things that surfaces for both Mike and Will is that they have been bullied, they have been picked on, they know what it's like to not be a part of the cool crowd and to feel separate and apart. For Elle, it is so heightened. And she does, like, say that to Mike where she tells him that it's just, she is different, right? And she feels that so keenly.

And I think the fact that she doesn't have powers still, I was so curious about that because season three ends with her not having her powers. How long would that continue? Would she have them right away? Would she not have them for a minute? I think this is a really smart decision for a few different reasons.

I think it's important for 11's character development and I think it's important for the rest of the characters because you get a moment like Mike saying to her, they're nobody's and you're a superhero. I don't like that. And 11 saying, and 11 saying not anymore and that she has to

embrace the fact that there are other aspects of her personhood outside of her powers, right? She has to learn to see all of the other ways that she can impact people, impact the situation around her, other than just putting her hand out and using her telekinesis, her telepathy, etc. I think the area where the show maybe

is a little bit torn on how much it wants to lean into that idea is that you then get a moment later in episode three with Sam Owens back in the story saying to her, they can't actually do it without you, right? They need you and you need your powers and we're going to get them back. And I get it, of course, structurally from a storytelling perspective, you're not going to go through the final two seasons of Stranger Things without 11 having her powers, of course.

Right. But I think that the moments here where she does not have them are crucial for her embracing the other aspects of who she is and for the other characters. not feeling like they can just wait for her to solve it. They have to go out and do it too. Yeah, and we're going to talk about that, but I think what's really important is the episode three title is like monster and superhero, right? So that monster superhero binary, if Ella is saving the world, she can feel like a superhero.

But if not, then she feels like a freak and she feels like a monster. And we're getting these flashes when she attacks with a roller skate. We've seen her do violent things before. When she attacks with a roller skate, you know, Ellen, her telekinesis is always, I mean, honestly, I'm fine with it. But, okay. But no, yeah, I mean, that's Angela. She's a monster.

A monster. She's the monster, honestly. But Ellen, her telekinesis has always been very, like, been very, like, fire starter, Drew Barrymore Firestarter. But now we're so firmly in Carrie territory, right? You're in high school. You're a teen girl. You're being bullied.

They're throwing milkshakes on you. Like, this is Carrie. and to see her reach out her hand and scream and nothing happen, it's really upsetting for those who care about her. The last thing I want to say about Elle before we move on to her tall boyfriend, Mike, is that there's like this interesting connection moment between Elle and Vecna. Some of her guilt around what she did in the roller skate seemed to be cross-cut with some of his, like, you know, tentacling about in the,

the upside down. I just thought that those cross cuts were really interesting. Yeah, that struck me too. There's a moment in episode three where we cut directly from her replaying the roller skating incident to seeing the Hawkins lap lashes directly into Vecna plugging into the vines and the upside down. I was struck

by that too. I know we don't have time for a lot of aside. Can I just ask you how you feel about roller skating? Part of what I love about strangers things is you're like, what do you think about carnivals? What do you think about malls? What do you think that's... I love it. I told you already, you know the answer to this.

I've broken my arm every single time I've ever tried to rollerblade or roller skate. This is why I asked, because this is one of the many things that we share. The last time I went roller skating, I broke both my radius and my ulma, and it was a disaster. Never again. It's the same arm three times, by the way. Wow. Speaking of long limbs and their fragility, let's bring our pal Jomey and dinner on to talk about my current obsession. My obsession before, let's put on the record, my obsession before the season started, I was early to this train, and it is only going faster and faster, which is how tall Finn Wolfheart is and what they could possibly do to deal with the fact that this freshman in high school is nine feet tall, Joe me a dinner on, what do you got to say?

Listen, I, you know, didn't really know what to expect from season four, strange of things. but the first thing that I noticed is that boy Mike is he's too tall he's too dang tall listen he's at the pep rally standing like five feet above everybody and my brother in Christ why are you not on the floor man

d and d but forget d and d you should be thinking about three and d get some stops get some buckets are you are you kidding me but he's long he's longer than the weight at the DMV. Like, you should be out there getting boards. Put your hands in the passing lane.

You see what I'm saying? I'm saying. He's Brandon Ingram without tattoos. He's Indiana, Chet Holmgren. The guy should be out there getting buckets. Wow, high praise. He should be out there getting buckets. I don't understand why he's standing there. A check comp for Mike, whom, along with Dustin, had to learn from Max

that, quote, it's a tournament. They call it a tournament. Now, listen. Listen, he could touch rim. He could touch him without lifting his feet. Like, all he got to do was raise his hands. Like, he's that tall that long. All right.

Jomi, I love this passion from you. I'm going to go the other way with it. Hear me out. Just like it was not reasonable, fair, or kind for a group of characters who we love and adore to think that they could identify Riefer Rick just by his movie viewing habits. Okay?

It is not fair. The profiler. It is not fair that Mike Wheeler should have to go play basketball instead of playing Dungeons and Dragons just because he's tall. He doesn't play basketball. He can play volleyball. Like that's allowed to. All I'm saying that Joy and B started playing ball when he was like 15, 16. Mike, we can get you to the league, my brother.

You just got to want it. I'm telling you know, we fell out that body in time. Don't worry about it. God. Mallory knows that I've been on this, like, Finn Wolvard is too tall. And I'm a very tall person. He's like that meme of SpongeBob when he's got the elongated legs, you know, when he's in the suit and he's just all legs.

That's Mike Wheeler. She's like, wait until you see him in shorts, like a, because he's got like a, what, a good six-inch and seam? How short are those shorts? Wait till he see him in shorts and roller skates. And boy, did I see that happen. Wow. What are we going to do?

What are we going to do with Mike? What are we going to do with Finn Wolfhard? I think one of the things that's interesting is that, and please let me know if you feel differently. And I say this with a lot of affection for Mike. There's not much to talk about with Mike through these first three episodes. He was one of the, I mean, I think the show has always been an ensemble. It's never had a main character necessarily.

I think you can make your case for a couple different ones. But Mike was certainly very central in the early seasons. And he is not at the beginning of this season. I think he has key moments, but they connect to how we're viewing character development for Will and for 11. I want to give him credit for saying it was very sweet when Elle is like, I miss the, like, you know, the flowers. I miss the colors of Hawkins and whatever. And he brings her a bouquet on the plane. Well, that's because he cares for her so much, Joe.

Top tier content. From? You can't go from love back to from, Mike. It's tough. What do we think is going on with this? Is it that he is trying to protect himself because a lot of, 11 is moved away. I mean, we've never doubted the fact that Mike loves 11. I could come up with a million character reasons. What I'm really worried about is that it's just

going to boil down to a moment at the end of the season where he has to say it and it deescalates something. Do you know? That the breakthrough moment has to be Mike saying he loves 11. That's what I'm worried is why it's there. Now that you say that, that seems right. All right, let's talk about, let's talk about another enormous child, which is Will Byers. Still rocking the bull cut, but he looks like an entire adult man in his short sleeve. Again, they're supposed to be freshman in high school. They look 25, truly. I told you, Joe, that if you asked me, hey, if you had to pick one character in TV history,

you dress most similarly too, who would you pick? I would pick Will Byers. This is my exact wardrobe. Okay. But then I was like, Mallory, I've never seen you in stripes. Yeah, and I said that's because I'm always on Zoom with you in pajamas. At home. But if I ever leave my house, I wear basically exclusively striped t-shirts.

Will Byers cut to her. Yeah. Every now and then a plaid button down, it's pretty much it. So major development that we get at the beginning of the season with Will is this question around his sexuality. This is something that I guess I had sort of missed that this was a conversation in the fandom where I had forgotten it. You pointed out that last season sort of this conversation about like Mike and Dustin and

it's all getting girlfriends and Will being like wanting to play D&D forever. I saw this interesting interview with Noish Knapp where he talked about how he felt like that spoke to Will's sort of arrested development. He was in the upside down. He's sort of frozen in his adolescence. But what the show appears to be leaning into in these first few episodes, we see Will's painting. Elle's like he's been painting.

Seems like he has a pressure that he brings the painting to the airport to greet Mike. I want to hear from Jomey again about the painting moment and what you think about what's going on with Will, Jomey. No, I thought, I thought that was sweet, you know. Because they have that scene in the first episode where they're in class and the girl next to Will, you know, tries to play a little footsie, you know, try to be a little cute. And it was like, no, I'm good off that, my G. You can stay over there. You need just six feet of distance. And so you already know, like, that's not the person he's questioning.

He's not really interested in that. And then with the, you know, Elle mentions, Elle mentioned the painting and he's got a crush. And then he brings the painting to the, to the airport terminal. I was like, oh, this is where we go. Okay. All right.

We need so, you know, so spicy, I'm interested to see how that will resolve itself in the, in future episodes because, you know, like, I don't know about you guys, but I've had a love triangle within a friend group, but that'll, it's always, it's tough. Mess. Pure mess.

It's, it gets messy. So I'm interested to see how these young, you supposedly young kids handle that going forward. Mallory, how do you feel? Again, I love Will. I care about Will so deeply. He's one of the characters I'm most invested in. And it was heartbreaking to me in these first three episodes

to see all of the moments where he was watching other people, watching Mike with his arm around L as they left the airport, watching them skate together directly in front of him, whatever the case may be. You know, we get that. You already mentioned, of course. the painting, we get in a direct exchange between Will and Mike about just the dynamic in this trio, right? When Will says, what about us? Mike says, what? You're mad that I didn't talk to you?

Seems like you made it super clear that you're not interested in anything that I have to say. And Mike says, that's not true. And Will says, you called maybe a couple of times. It's been a year, Mike. Meanwhile, Elle has like a book of letters from you. And Mike says, that's because she's my girlfriend Will. And Will says, and us. And it was heartbreaking. And Mike said, we're friends, we're friends. To which Will replied, well, we used to be best friends. That's such a familiar dynamic that I would say, even without the crush, this is just a reality of, you know, the childhood best friendship and no longer being the number one person who is the number one person to you. Absolutely. I agree completely. That's exactly what I was going to say. I am reading this as Will having

romantic interest in Mike. I feel like that's where this is heading. But I don't think it has to be that. And crucially, I think that even if it is that, it's not mutually exclusive from the fact that he's missing his friend. Mike, no matter what, it's just in a different place than Will is. They're literally in a different place than each other after growing up together,

being best friends. Think back to season one in that conversation between Dustin and Mike about how Will is Mike's best friend, even inside of the whole group. And Mike is like, we're all best friends. We're all part of the party. but they have a really meaningful relationship with each other. We see the way in season two when Will is trying to fall back into the flow of young life, trick-or-treating, et cetera.

Mike is always the first one there to ask if he's okay to see what he needs. Mike is the one that Will confides in, right? So I think that Will has feelings for Mike, but I think that overall he is really grappling with the change for him in his life. their party growing apart, when that group, particularly for Will, given what he's been through with the upside down, with the Mind Flair, their group, that friendship was the anchor in his life, like the totem that could make him feel safe and secure and like he had some sort of mooring and bearing. And you mentioned already that that season three moment. And the reason that I love

that, and it's one of my favorite Stranger Things moments, the reason I love it so much has nothing to do with the possibility of any sort of romantic interest. It is about the way that people change and grow apart from each other. I think it is so heart-wrenching. It's when Will is trying so desperately to mount the Dungeons and Dragons campaign. And Mike and Lucas just are talking about L and Max, right, and their girlfriends. And Will gets so upset and he leaves. And he says, you're ruining everything. And for what? So you could swap, spit with some stupid girl. And Mike says, L's not stupid. It's not my fault. You don't like a girl. And there's this moment of real tension between them there.

And then Mike continues, I'm not trying to be a jerk, okay, but we're not kids anymore. I mean, what did you think, really, that we were never going to get girlfriends, that we were just going to sit in my basement all day and play games for the rest of our lives? And Will says, yeah, I guess I did. And, like, who cannot relate to that, right? The thing that was the most central and important bond in your life, when you don't have that anymore and you feel it's slipping away, you feel completely, lost. I love Will. Will not having a lot of luck, it appears, making friends in California, but we got to shout out his brother, Jonathan, who is doing a better job. We should say, I don't think we should dwell too long here because we are running as a time cop. I demand that

we move along quickly. Just want to shout out. We're doing great. As a 1980s California kid, I want to shout out the representation of Saved by the Bel Air Neon that is in the California aesthetic. I want to shout out Argyle played by the great Eduardo Franco. who is in a bunch of things, book smart, et cetera. Great kit. Anytime he shows up, great time for me. I love this. I love pot head, Jonathan.

Love Argyle. Again, do we need Argyll this season? Maybe not. Maybe we just need his van. I don't know. But, like, you know, it's, I'm happy for it. And I think we will have more to say, maybe a little later on. Anything you want to say?

Gives us the risotto dinner scene with Murray Bauman and the whole crew, which is just an absolute joy. Can you pass me the olive oil? that's wine. Incredible stuff from Jonathan Byers. Or Jonathan just being like, what? This is the most I've ever liked Jonathan. This is the most I've ever liked.

Like, he should have discovered read before is what I have to say. I'm happy for him. Let's go to Hawkins, and I will say, this is far and away my favorite part of the show, is what's going on in Hawkins. The kids, the Scooby gang, to borrow a phrase from Buffy Vampire Slayer, trying to make it work. We got a bunch of new kids right in Eddie, Jason, Chrissy and Fred.

Chrissy and Fred do not make it through the first three episodes. Rest in pieces. But we've got Eddie. And I just want to say, not since Robin, have I enjoyed the introduction. I love Eddie. I'm a huge, huge Eddie fan.

Comes in, like, guns blazing in this first episode, right? Joseph Quinn, like he gives the tabletop speech in the cafeteria. He's got that great, like, very sweet interaction with Chrissy in the forest. And then him as the game mass as the dungeon master for the D&D game. I just, I love this kid, not a bright kid, but I love him. I love his Eddie Van Halen look. I love all of it.

So close to graduating high school at last, Joe. So close. I'm also quite taken with Eddie right away. You know, you have a moment like the cafeteria sequence where on the one hand, like he's making fun of the kids who play sports, right? Balls into laundry baskets and is kind of doing the same thing that the jocks are doing to the nerds. Like, can't we all just get along and let people do the things that they're interested in doing? But there is like a level of wisdom and insight into the human condition and also what it means to be a student in high school when he says, it's forced conforming.

That's what's killing the kids. That's the real monster. And this is, as he's reading the Newsweek, D&D satanic panic article. That is just great, all of that. And I love not only the dynamic that he has with Dustin and everybody in the cult of Vecna Hellfire campaign, but you mentioned it. That sequence with Chrissy in the woods was like so captivating because we get the you're not what I thought you'd be like mean and scary. I actually thought you might be mean and scary to exchange.

And it's such a nice little moment before all of the horror ensues where. you remember that amid all of these like clicks and divisions and bullying in high school and all walks of youth, people can find common ground if they take a minute and have a conversation with each other. And so I love that sequence with them. I love the Newsweek D&D article and the satanic panic aspect of this season. If folks don't know, like this is absolutely a real thing. There's this great BBC.com article about the sort of D&D panic in which it actually. outlines this organization started by a concerned mother called Bothered about Dungeons and Dragons, bad, BADD, formed in 1983, uh, in which this mother described D&D as a fantasy role-playing game

which uses demonology, witchcraft, voodoo, murder, rape, blasphemy, suicide, assassination, insanity, sex perversion, homosexuality, prostitution, satanic type rituals, gambling, barbarism, cannibalism, desecration, demon-semining, necromanics, divination, and other teachings, period. And I'm like, what a great advertisement for D&D, honestly. Couldn't have paid for better advertising. I am not a D&D player myself, but like all of my closest friends are. It's just because I'm as bad at math as Eddie is that I can't play D&D. But I think role playing is one of the most beautiful, honestly, things to come out of the late

70s and 80s. What are your D&D feelings, Mallory? I'm also not a player, though. I wish that I were. Seems like a grand old time. I would love to play. I mean, we've been trying to get Steve Allman, who is a D&D player to organize a ringer campaign. I would play that.

Let's do it. Yeah. When the ringer verse is finally actually altogether in person, Steve Allman will organize a D&D campaign for us. He will. My friend Jenny O'Youngs was telling me that over the pandemic, she and some. Very excited Zoom chat from everyone. I know. It's on.

It's happening. My friend told me that over the pandemic, she did a campaign where they did Xena Warrior Princess. Like it was all set in the world of Zena Warrior Princess as like incredible content. Incredible. I love the presence of this satanic panic in the show because you have these moments, whether it's like a character like Jason talking in this first batch of episodes. I've read the wrong person plays this game. It can warp their mind or something more passive in a sequence like the news, the local

news footage about the murder where you hear just a woman, a person who lives in Hawkins saying, you start to believe what they say, that this town is cursed, that the devil lives here in Hawkins. And of course, thinking that the kids who play Dungeons and Dragons are engaging in satanic rituals is absurd. The way that the season seems interested in looking at how the paranoia and the fear and the really desperate need to find an answer could mislead citizens of a town when things like this are happening inside of their community is, I think, a smart storytelling choice. Any moral panic, because, you know, you could think about like the Salem Witch Trials as well and stuff like that.

Like anything like this that I want to quote actually one of our ringer colleagues, Justin Sails, who wrote this great piece on the West Memphis 3, great ringer.com piece that I recommend you read. the West Memphis three three teenagers who were wrongly convicted and sat in jail for 20 years, something like that, I think, because of

satanic panic. And this is the quote from the article, one of the most studied legal cases in U.S. history, one that put heavy metal lyrics and black t-shirts on trial. So, like, the fact that like these kids, Eddie and Mike and Dustin are walking around with these like Hellfire Club ringer

T-shirts on, you know, it's just like putting a target on their backs in this highly dangerous time. And also, I think it feels like a cool natural progression of, you know, Hawkins, Indiana, you know, I love to talk about Buffy. Sunnydale, California, and Buffy is situated on top of a hellmouth. And that's why all this demon activity happens in, you know, and it's a similar situation. The upside down, there's a crack in our reality, things, bad things come through. But at a certain point, if you're just an everyday citizen who has seen people turn to goop and all this sort of stuff happen, you are exactly as you

say, you're going to want to start looking for answers. So this feels like a culmination, a hysteria that comes from like a culmination. Do you know what I mean? And then for the kids, it's like, what does it mean and how does it feel when the thing that is your sanctuary, the place where you have found belonging is weaponized by all these other people? And that in a more intimate way, manifest within the group dynamic because of Lucas being in with the cool kids now, being on the team and this riff, this split, or are we going to go to the game? Are we going to play D&D?

And like one of the things that made me really sad is, again, that's so relatable, like feeling the people who you love around you grow apart and find their own interests, you wish that they would all support each other. Like when Max is making fun of Lucas, like, is this a thing you really care about? That actually sucks, right? The fact, like the pain on Lucas's face when he sees that. that they're all coming out of their campaign. They didn't go to his game is, like, pretty crushing,

but also equally devastating to see Lucas go with the team instead of immediately going to sink up with his friends. And you never, you know, you don't doubt for long that they will make their way back to each other again. And so when Lucas leads them to Hop's cabin instead, it's like, yes, but it's painful until then. And it's very smart storytelling to put Lucas with them because, like, if we were just cutting back to these, like,

band of jocks who we've just met and we don't care about on this, like, you know, witch hunt, that's, that would be a boring cutaway from a story we care about. But you put Lucas in there. And his, like. This Hawk is gear. But I mean, you put Lucas there in his stress and he's like, what's the right thing to do and how do I fit in?

And I kind of believe them about Eddie and all this sort of stuff like that. I thought that was really smart. You know, we already gave a sweet RIP to Chrissy and Fred. There's not much more to say. I like the, I like the aesthetic. of the clock showing up in weird places. I think that is incredibly creepy and cool. I like the Nightmare on Elm Street sort of Dream Warrior going after vulnerable teens who have

stressors, anxieties, disorders, need help. All of that sort of stuff feels very authentically nightmare on Elm Street. There's even some visual references back to Nightmare and Elm Street. Anything you want to say about Vecna's targets? Oh. I think this. it's probably worth chatting for a minute about Max in that context since one of the real, you know, propulsive forces at the end of this batch of episodes is Max, hearing the ticking

of the clock, seeing it, hearing Vecna, say her name, Max, and the real fear that we feel for a character we love. I love Max. Max is one of my absolute favorite characters. Again, it's such smart storytelling to put one of our kids in this batch. did like that she was, that it increases the urgency, right? They're already doing the Scooby-Doo thing and then somebody is in peril. But I think ultimately it's just the thematic richness of having Max involved because we see the way that Max's life has changed, right? We see that we learn both through the conversations with the counselor and just seeing Max at home, mom working double jobs, drinking, stepdad, who Max hated, deplored, who was cruel and abusive.

gone. Max and Billy did not get along. That doesn't mean that the pain isn't there. That doesn't mean that that wasn't real trauma that Max suffered through. And even though the counselor is ultimately like a plot device to get the key so that they can go to the school, there was real heart in those exchanges. Like it's okay to not be okay, right? It's okay to ask for help. And I love that what Max is going through is going to hopefully unlock that for all of the characters with each other because you have that exchange with like Lucas and Max in the early run where it's like, you're like a ghost. You're not even here anymore. And she's so hurt by that. And who's, who wouldn't be, right? And how do they, it doesn't, they've broken up, they're not a couple

anymore, and that's fine. How do you still work your way back to each other, to trusting each other to help you through? And even though she didn't say it, I really feel the absence of 11 for Max, like 11, her friendship with 11 and like what a sweet, important thing that felt like in her life. And so losing that has stranded her in many different ways. The only other Vecna thing, this isn't specific to your question about like the kids that he's targeting, but just for Vecna as a new looming specter in these first three episodes, I was really interested in the way the show voiced the question that I had. And the question that I'm sure many viewers had in these first three episodes, which was Dustin directly addressing the mind flare. Who was not in these first three episodes, at least not in the way we would expect, right?

But is this again, kind of looming what's going on with the mind flare. Or working theory is that he attacks this about Vecna, Dustin says, with a spell or curse. Now whether or not he's doing the bidding of the Mindflare or just loves killing teens, we don't know. And Max says all we know is that this is something different, something new. This gets back to what we're talking about earlier with the mythology and the widening of it. But as you widen, it's also time in season four to start providing some actual answers. And you pair that kind of exchange with something like Owen saying to Elle, this evil, it's like a virus each time it returns and comes back stronger, smarter, deadlier. Like, is the mindflayer still the ultimate final boss?

there's one more season. This is not our final boss, right? So are we going back to the mind flare and Vecna is a step along the path or not? I don't know. Obviously, we don't know the answer to that, but I'm really interested to find out what that dynamic is. I have so many theories that I can't wait to talk to you about. But I think that also additionally, what's so interesting about Vecna as the villain this season, and obviously like Billy was sort of part of this in season three, but making the threat more humanoid than it's been in the past, Vecna is a largely practical effect. They got Barry Gower, the great Barry Gower. from Game of Thrones to do the suit and all the tentacles and stuff like that, but you're not dealing with, like, something that doesn't look of this world. He doesn't, but he's still, like, humanoid. And that's... The hand reaches out. He walks into the room and squelches wetly. Right.

He says that, you know, he talks to you. So it's really interesting. All right. Let's talk about my favorites, which are Robin, Steve, and Dustin. And I could just give me the entire show. just them in the video store and or solving crimes, and I'm for it. There's this great moment, speaking in Buffy. So there's this episode of Buffy where, like, Buffy leaves Sunnydale actually happens a couple times, that Buffy's gone. Buffy, the vampire slayer, the superhero of the group

is gone. And the Scooby gang, her friends left over, have to try to fight monsters without this superhero who is part of their lineup. And it's always so funny and tender and all of it. this sort of stuff. And so to see Steve literally say this to Eddie, there used to be this girl with superpowers that did this, but we've done this before. It'll be fine. We've done this before. We know what we're doing. It's going to be fine. Just need to workshop it a little. Joy. Pure joy on my face. Steve Harrington, King of my heart, huge fan. And what a smart thing that Stranger Things did with that character to evolve him from bully to maybe everyone's favorite character possibly? In the running for my favorite moment of the season so far is that

Dustin saying to Steve, you're just jealous because I have another older male friend. Steve just going, the Dustin Steve dynamic is so great. Steve and Robin is so great. Getting the Robin Nancy, very weird, interesting Robin Nancy dynamic, which leads us to. I have a lot of questions because, like, okay, obviously, and we're going to talk about this. Like, we don't have a lot of thoughts and feelings about questions about this, but like, they're pushing the Steve and Nancy reunion is what it feels like, right? Jonathan and Nancy are both struggling with the fact.

that the other one didn't come to visit for break. They don't understand why they both have conversations where they're defending their partner. In theory, nominally to the person they're talking to, but clearly really to themselves, like at that point in the relationship where they're trying to talk themselves into it. And Jonathan doesn't want to leave his family

to go live the life that Nancy wants to live. He also doesn't want her to give up the life that she wants to live for him. And it makes you think of that great moment where they're shooting the guns in season one talking about like how tragic it is when everyone just plays out this same domestic trope. that's actually not what either of them wanted, right?

Right. But they love each other and care about each other and they're not quite ready to admit that to each other. Nancy being drawn back to Steve is like, I mean, who among us, right? Of course. We've all been there. You can't hear me, but I am deeply nodding as Molly says this, like, obviously. Boy, and I don't quite get the level of divide and between and the level of almost like hostility that Nancy seems to be displaying toward Robin. That was bizarre to me.

Like, because I get, I get it. Like, Robin and Steve hang out all the time. And nobody knows that Robin is gay except for Steve. And Steve is talking to her about girls she's interested in. They've got, they've developed this, like, really strong friendship. Love to see it. But from the outside, it looks like a will, they won't they, or something like that. And Nancy doesn't know that.

So she's got some jealousy. But she is rude to our dear Robin in a way that I don't understand. So, but I do love Nancy. Nancy turning to Nancy Drew doing the like intrepid girl reporter stuff following leads she's got this like Victor Creel sort of trail that she's following that seems fruitful all of that sort of stuff

so shit Hawkins Post the Hawkins Tigers on it school newspapers thriving here in season four volume one I will say the reason that I do love the Max Max still grappling with Billy Fallout is because it's a corrective of that weird accusation that was Loved Against Stranger Things in season one

that everyone just forgot about Barb, Bob died and for what? And then the show is like, we'll never forget about Barb again. You and I don't give a shit about Barb to be honest of you, but like, you know, the fact that they're not feeling that way about,

they're like, okay, the Billy death, even though nobody liked him, still means something. Karen Wheeler. She's got bigger issues to do it. Oh boy. mean something, right?

Even in the fallout here. Wild stuff. The Robin Nancy dynamic will continue to see how it unfolds. But I mean, it did lead us to a crucial breakthrough, right? Which is as they're looking through the weekly watcher. Love a microfiche moment. Microfish great stuff. And Robin is, again, just such a treat to watch.

Like, My Hawkett rules. Victor Creel claims vengeful demon killed family, the murder that shocked, small community. And Nancy's like, ha ha, that's very funny. And Rob, I'm not kidding. I just love that. Cracking the case. She's right in the thick of things with all of them. My Huck's so good.

I mean, like she sounds so much like her mom. It's so fun to like watch her play. All right. Speaking of moms, last but not least. Alaska and Russia. I don't know there's a ton to say yet about this. Hopper is in Russia. He's in a prison camp.

Jack and Hagar from Game of Thrones is here. What a delight for us. Incredible for us. A man has a new role. Joe. A man has a mustache. Oh my God. And maybe that mustache will make up for the fact that they sheared the hair off of your

your man. Hop is your favorite, I know, but like honestly, what do we say? Murray Bowman is now a main character of Stranger Things. That's kind of fun because Brett Gelman's fun and Joyce is not alone on this Odyssey.

So that's sure. That's great. So they're doing that. Joyce sort of dereliction of parental duties, but that's fine. And then Hopper, I guess my big. question for you. I know you love Hopper. I know you're excited that Hopper's here. How do you feel

about this as an explanation? Hopper got fully blown up by a bomb. How do you feel like, no, not working for you? Okay. So I'm thrilled that he's here. And obviously it wasn't a reveal that he was here because they this was revealed long ago in the marketing for the season, posters, trailers, promos, et cetera. In a way that I was genuinely surprised by at the time, I, to the point where I was like, did they not expect? as many people to think that he actually was dead in season three, as thought that. And they had to get more quickly ahead of it than when season four was eventually going to come out.

I don't know. Or maybe they just thought it would leak. Who knows? Anyway, we knew for a long time that he was alive and it was just going to be a question of how quickly the characters found out. The answer is really quickly, at least for Joyce. Not for 11, right? Which is tragic because we see the way that, you know, she's her hero, right, in the class

presentation. Heartbreaking. Shout out to Mr. Fibbley the squirrel. Wonderful showing. Wonderful cameo from the... Tiny Mr. Bibley. For Hopper, so I have a couple different thoughts on this. One, delighted he's here, glad he's alive.

As despondent as I was during the season three finale, as I wept, as I watched 11 mourn, as I watched Joyce mourn. I very quickly talked myself into him being alive. I thought there were a lot of clues that pointed that way. I'm hardly in the minority there. That was a widely held opinion, right? And I'm glad he is. I don't think it undercuts the emotional impact of the story. The character is still mourned.

They still went through that pain. Elle still had to think about the words in the letter. You know what? Right? The herd is good. It means you're out of that cave. Like, that all still lands and is really meaningful to me. I think that that sequence is just beautiful. Literally just explaining it by showing that he just jumped and fell to the lower level and was just there. And if you go back to the season three finale, Joyce and Murray run down that staircase because they're fleeing the Russians who come in. They escape through the side door. If they had just looked to the last. I don't have the exact blueprint of that room or anything, but that was a little, I don't know, that fell a little flat to me as an explanation. It's the real that he's here, but that felt a little flat. And then even you just have, like, we know that the military came to StarCourt,

so I was confused. I had to go back. Wait, was there time for the Russians to scoop him up first? And it turns out, yes, there is. The Russians come into the room, right? That's why Joyce and Murray run out. But I don't know. I wanted him to go through the crack at the portal and end up.

the upside down and then come out through another gate in Russia and something like that. That was what I was kind of waiting. Not, not, guys, I'm just right here. To bloom of smoke. Joyce. Joyce. I still want to kill that. But I love him.

Throw these here. I have to just say last thing that the ankle thing was one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen on TV. I was revolted. Really upsetting Foley work on that. Revolved. I already mentioned this to you, but I'll say in the podcast, I think the most self-induling shot so far of the series is a most like really you need to spend your money on that is a pull

out from the Alaska Airlines window to show us the plane which a digital effect that must have cost a ton of money for why for why exactly well Joe it's a it's a fine and reasonable point but instead of responding to it I'm going to note that you said pull out just now which makes me think of the iconic exchange between Murray Baum and Jonathan and Nancy where he said how was the pullout and it makes me think that really Murray's primary role in the show to this point has been translator, right? He was a part of the Murray, Joyce, Hop,

trio, of course, in season three. It's mostly been to ask other characters why they're not fucking yet, right? He did this with Jonathan and Nancy in season two, and in a sequence that I really cherish, did this with Joyce and Hopper, and Alexi is also in the car, in season three.

My guy is still on his bullshit, because he says when Joyce, who I did find it baffling that she didn't tell the kids, I mean, she doesn't want to get their hopes up, I guess, but they've always really been in the thick of it together. She doesn't tell them that she's having some regrets. And my guy Murray on the plane is like, I don't know much about parenting, but here's what I can tell you. And this is what he says, Joanna. This way what? They play too much Nintendo, eat too much junk food, smoke some gons, bounce some beers, experiment sexually. Really? What's the worst that can happen? And I have to say, I agree. Sounds like a great weekend.

Yeah, absolutely. The Don't Tell Mom the Babysitters Dead vibes of the weekend sound great. But like, let's be clear, monsters are constantly following these children around. So I don't know. All right. Speaking of Monsters, should we, should we like zoom through any sort of like Easter eggs or major like 80s references that we want to talk about? What struck you? Oh, Joe, there are so many.

I mean, I just always love the references that are dotted throughout stranger things. you know, seeing an ET here, Dustin's toys, Star Wars references coming to life, etc. I think for me here so far, it's got to be just the treasure trove of references inside of family video, a video store in the 80s is such a smart setting. We saw Stephen Robin apply for jobs there at the end of season three. And so putting them in there so that we can get the Raiders poster here and the Goody's not here. It's just great.

And then we got some really iconic Dr. Chavago, Steve the Hare Harrington moments as a result. And I, for one, am grateful. Love a promo for the hotness of Julie Christie and Dr. Chavago. Great stuff. I agree with Robin. I'm a shout out two things. Number one, Max is watching. I thought it was family ties, but I did some research.

And it turns out Courtney Cox in 1986 was in a show called Misfits of Science, where she played a girl with telekinesis. I watched a little bit of it on YouTube. Really bad stuff. So that is what Max is watching on TV the night that Chrissy died. Misfits of Science with Courtney Cox. And then larger vibe is the freaks and geeks vibe. Freaks and Geeks is a show that I absolutely, absolutely love. I think they use the, you know, are we freaks?

Like, that's something they say. And then, like, watching them play D&D with an older kid, like, makes me think of one of the greatest episodes of Freaks and Geeks where James Franco plays D&D with the younger kids and it's great stuff. So, yeah, just love a freaks and geeks vibe. Anything else you want to talk about? Totally tubular 80s-wise. You mentioned already Carrie.

You mentioned all the nightmare on Elm Street. Some of that is very, very direct. The way the kids are floating up in the air right before they get, like, crunched in their eyes sucked out of their heads, is very it. IT, Stephen King. Scary. I think the only other thing I had just, we can't end the podcast without mentioning, is just that Joyce's cover story is that she's going to visit Joan and Brian

Prattack. in Alaska, which killed me. Molly, did you have... Did you have an encyclopedia Britannica growing up? My dad had a set of encyclopedias, but I don't remember... Did he have the whole alphabet? You know, did he just have A through C?

Like, Joyce's... Shillin, I don't know. I don't know. Arjuna, our producer, says that he did. I did as well. I didn't know they sold them individually. And I love the idea that you could just buy like a couple volumes. Which letters would you pick if you were going to buy right now?

Oh, well, I'm trying to remember the, the widest ones, you know, because they were like varying degree of thickness. And I believe S and R. I think it's like RST. RST. That's what I would pick. That logic tracks for me. Okay. Yeah. Bang for your buck, you know what I mean?

Also some impressive needle drops in this season, Talking Head, some Kate Bush. Some of the budget definitely went into that. Always are in Stranger Things. Do you have a favorite Stranger Things needle drop to date? I'm a huge Talking Hits fan, so I was delighted to see Talking Hits a season. How about you? Do you have one?

I think over the course of Stranger Things of all its seasons, I'm such a sap and I'm such a sucker for the season two finale and the snowball and Dustin dancing the time after time. I love that scene. It kills me. Love it. Heart wrenching. All right.

If you're just joining us for the first time on the ring of verse, something Mallory and I like to do no matter what the property. is try to pick someone in this cast who might be undercover as a scroll as a character from the Marvel cinematic universe of Marvel comics, someone who looks like an ordinary human but is actually an alien in disguise, Mallory Rubin, who's your scroll

in the first three episodes of Stranger Things? For careful consideration because there are no fewer than 900 candidates for this prompt today. I am going with Lieutenant Colonel Sullivan. Great, great call. Our government batty this season. So what is the answer, Dr. Moore scientists? Because it's been of science men like you who created this problem in the first place. I mean, listen, not wrong. Right. Not wrong. His involvement in the plot just has real secret

scroll energy. So that's my pick. I'm going the complete opposite of your pick. And I'm going to go with my guy Argyle because I love the idea of a scroll sort of hanging out undercover. Just getting high and eating pizza. As a pot head, observing human behavior, you know, through the lens of a pothead. Love that for us. That's a great pick. I consider picking Jason. He's got some scroll energy, too.

Yeah. Well, I can't wait to talk to you more about Jason. All right. So here's the deal. We're from Jomey. You talked to us about Mike. He talked to us a little bit about Will. But Jomey's going to be hanging with us for the finale podcast to do a mailbag segment.

one of my favorite things that we do in the ring reverse. So you want to keep your eyes peeled for a prompt. I mean, Jomi's going to be busy. He's going to be a Star Wars celebration. But there will be some sort of prompt on social for you to send in your mailbag questions at the end of it all. The end of Stranger Things. We have two more episodes to speculate that Mal and I will not have seen. So at the end of seven, once you've seen it all, send us your questions, your comments, your concerns.

Jomi will be here to run the mailbag with us. Anything else? Did we do it, Mallory, Rubin? We did it. Impossible. But it's done. Episodes one through three of Stranger Things. I cannot wait to be back here with you in the upside down of the ring of verse to talk about the next three episodes.

I will not be roller roller skating my way through that podcast. I will be staying on my own two feet. All right. So that's it for this segment of the ringer verse. Obviously come back to the feed for a ton of other content. the Obi-One coverage from the Midnight Boys, you know, the Star Wars celebration coverage.

There's so much going on. We're so excited to kick off this summer of just wall-to-wall content that we were so thrilled. These things that we love and we get to talk to you all about. Follow us and social, obviously. That's where you'll find all the goodies. And I want to thank Jomeo Dineran, obviously, for his tall mic opinions. I want to thank Arjunio Rumpol for his. production work. And of course, Steve Alman is not here, but Carlos Scherboga, my

trial by content producer is here. Carlos, thank you so much for your work producing this episode. And we will see you all on the upside down on Sunday. Bye. What's the difference between butter and butter made from real California dairy? It's the real California farm families behind it. Real people. Real care. Real intention. Why? because real matters. So whether you're pouring milk, melting cheese, or just grabbing one more spoonful of yogurt,

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