The Ringer-Verse - ‘Stranger Things’ Season 4, Episodes 4-6 Deep Dive | House of R

Episode Date: May 29, 2022

Jo and Mal return to the Upside Down to share their thoughts on Episodes 4-6 of ‘Stranger Things’ Season 4 (4:00). They discuss how the show deals with memories (10:00), Mike and Will’s relationship (35:00), and Hopper’s escape and potential return to Hawkins (48:00). Plus, they each pick the songs that would bring them back from the Upside Down (50:00) and, of course, talk about Steve Harrington’s chest hair (61:00). Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Associate Producer: Mike Wargon Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, guys, Rachel Lindsay here, and I am teaming up with your favorite Ringer podcasters to deliver the Bravo drama and news that you've been craving on morally corrupt. It's the show about all things Bravo. From the Housewives to Summer House and everything in between, we'll be mentioning it all every week. Check it out on Spotify and the ringer.com. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Trimphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks,

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This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here. celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors. New Whole Foods, Market Peach, Apricot, Rose, Italian soda. Perfect for a picnic or brunch, as is their trending mango, Yuzu chantilly cake. But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sale signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring, save at Whole Foods Market. Hello and welcome back into the ringerverse, your nexus podcast feed for all things

fandom. I'm Joanna Robinson and joining me, now that she has figured out all the things that she needs to do to move to Salt Lake City to become one of Susie's many siblings, it's Mallory Rubin. Hi, Mallory. How are you? Joanna, I love that plan because if you think I'm going to spend this podcast in the armpit that is Mike Wheeler's basement, you're out of your mind.

All right, here we are, part two of our three-part, Stranger Things coverage. Molly Rubin is like in the thick of Star Wars Celebration right now, and she is pressing pause on a galaxy far, far away to come back. I pulled her out of a galaxy far far away back to Hawkins, Indiana. What a place to be, you know what I mean? Through a water gate. A little mini watergate. We love that.

We're here to talk about episodes 4, 5, and 6 of Stranger Things. If you missed our first installment, that's also in the feed. So we talked about 1 through 3 already. Find that that dropped on Friday. Talking about 4 through 6 today. And then we'll be back with the finale wrap-up episode next week. Next Tuesday, I believe it is. Also, also we're in the feed.

There's discussion from the Midnight Boys on Obi-Wan Canobi. you'll hear soon for Mallory Me on Monday. The Deep Dive, our deep dive on the first two episodes of Obi-1 Canobi. We've seen it. We have a lot of things to say. We're excited. I can't wait. We have so many beer takes.

I mean, it's just... I'm so excited. I'm so excited. I'm so excited. Plus, like, the constant news out of Star Wars celebration that, that Mallory and the boys are doing, plus a live show out of Star Wars celebration. There's just endless, endless content on this feed for you. So you can follow all of that by following the Ring of Verse on social, on TikTok, on Instagram, on Facebook, on Twitter.

And if you're following them on social, you've been seeing all the dispatches that Jomi has been doing from Star Wars Celebration. Fun, fun times. What you are missing by not being in the Ring of Reverse text group are the shots of Van Poolside. That's just for us. Those are special for us photos. But everything else. Joanna, have you been enjoying the night. 97 text messages per hour where one of us asked Sarjuna what time we're supposed to be at a certain place.

We're meeting where? Wait, where are you? What floor are you on? Is that super fun for you? It's fun. It's not at all fueling my foam, oh, it's fine. So, yeah, we miss you. So spoiler, spoiler reminders, obviously. Last thing we need to do here. As I mentioned, we are talking about episode four, Dear Billy, episode five, the Nina Project episode six, the dot. We will not be talking about the finale episode seven, supersized chunky finale of the part one. The jumbo finale, as we like to say. Jumbo. We'll be saving that.

Yes. Point of order about that for our finale episode, we're going to be doing a mailbag segment with our pal Jomey. So please do keep a lookout for a prompt from Jomey on social, on the Facebook, on Twitter about your Stranger Things question. So we can all chat together about our many, many thoughts and feelings and concerns about about Steve's manscaping tendencies. Do you have opinions?

I have opinions. Let's all talk about them. Do I have opinions on Steve's chest hair? I do. I can't wait to chat about that with you. And I'm excited for not only today's pot and the finale pop, but yeah, the mailbag, I think, is going to be a rich text after the season of Stranger Things.

I'm super excited for the mailbag question. Send them over. We're going to do, I mean, we're going to keep things pretty tight today because we've got that lengthy finale podcast. So anything we missed today, we'll be talking about then. But I do want to talk about a few big picture questions with you, Mallory, here at the top, if that's all right with you. I think this is a perfect opportunity to talk about this sort of the budgetary thing that we mentioned in the first three, covering the first three episodes. I think they really come into play here with a lot of spectacle sort of laden sequences.

You've got hoppers sort of big elaborate escape from the camp. You've got Joyce and Murray crashing the airplane. You've got the oneer shootout in the buyers like L.A. California home. What is all this spectacle doing for you? Does stranger things need this amount of spectacle? Are you thrilled and overjoyed to have blockbuster vibes come to your TV show? What do you think? Interesting question.

I could use a 24-7 live. stream of the moments after Hopper's Great Escape, specifically when he is sitting down, licking peanut butter off his fingers and just luxuriating in that ingestion of protein and deliciousness. So that I enjoyed. I have some questions about the amount of frostbite he must have incurred and whether he's going to have to lose a limb or two while running through the snow barefoot on that already grossly injured ankle. In general, it's a good question. I mean, I don't, this, obviously the substance and spectacle discussion was something that was a real present through line in the concluding episodes of Game of Thrones.

And in general, I think my take is the same, which is I enjoy spectacle in my television programming when it doesn't come at the expense of the substance, when it doesn't come at the expense of the story. Yeah. There were certain sequences in this season of Stranger Things to date where it was like fun and things. thrilling to see the cinematic heights that they're attempting to reach, it connects, I think, to what we discussed in the first pod, which is, do we feel like we're away from certain swaths of characters or just certain people for too long? And this was the stretch of episodes, this middle three, where I started to, of course, right, because you get to the end, even though there's a very long seventh episode coming, and then we know we're going to have two more episodes in volume two.

I started to think, oh, wow, I've gotten like no time really learning anything about Jonathan, for example. You know, we get a couple lines of insight about how he's thinking about his relationship with his family and Nancy, but there's very little progress in like a major character's arc. And that's just one example. So my preference is always to have more of that and less of the former. But if the balance is there, I don't mind it. I found like on a rewatch that it was notable how few notes I took on the Murray-Joyce, Yury plotline in particular, like nothing there really felt consequential.

That doesn't mean it wasn't fun. That doesn't mean it wasn't entertaining. But did it move the story? Didn't move the plot forward? Yes. Did it move their character arcs forward? Not as much. What do you think?

And I feel like you and I might have a different take on Hopper, but I kind of felt similarly about some of the like Siberian prison monologues about Hopper. I'm not sure I felt like I learned anything more. It's not like I didn't know that like he needed Joyce in 11. It's not like that's his character that we've been following from the start. And for me, all the stuff with the adults kind of feels like, a time stretch. It's exciting and there's a lot of spectacle and all that sort of stuff,

but it feels like with time stretch to keep the kids unsupervised, you know? Yeah. To keep Hopper away from 11 because if Hopper were there, or even if Joyce were there, would Brenner and Owens be able to like have 11 all to themselves? No, I don't think so. Do you know? Yeah.

So I feel like we can see kind of some of the plot mechanics going there, of them trying to keep certain pieces separated on the board. And to your point about, like, storylines for certain characters, like, for me, the biggest, the most glaring drop of an interesting storyline in these three episode chunk is Lucas. I thought he had such, like, an interesting story starting. And then it's just sort of like, you're glad that he's not fully gone over to the dark side of the jocks and that he sort of misleads them and runs back to the Scooby gang at the beginning of episode. for here. But then he's just like, you know, he's there to help Max and he's there to like talk to her about things. But what about his story, his desire to grow and change from the group? I thought that was

so interesting. And I was sad to see it just sort of dissolve here. So yeah, I'm with you. Yeah. More of that stuff. Okay. So let's talk about like some of the meteor stuff though that we get because this is Stranger Things is always because 11 is this sort of like wild orphan in the woods. figure. There's always been this idea of like found family. We've got these home family dynamics that are on the on the very spectrum of dysfunctional, but together as a unit and especially like our core kids together as a unit. We hear Mike and Will talk to each other about this. Like guess it's down to us again. Like we got to do it again. This core family. But I'm wondering what you think about like this triangulation of 11 with the Brenner father figure, the Hopper father figure,

the hopper father figure, like the Papa, the Hopper. And then this sort of interesting father figure-ish thing we get in Jamie Campbell-Bauer's character, who we meet here is like a not quite fatherly, but sort of an older, sort of a different guidance that comes into her life. What do you think of that triangulation? Great question. I think even though this is not exactly what you asked, I would also, I would throw in the parallels that emerge between the bullying with two and,

some of the other kids that Elle experiences back in the prior time line, the 79 time line and the memories. And the similarities there with what she experienced in Lenora out in California with Angela and those other crews, the other groups, because it reinforced, you already mentioned the line, but Will, you know, saying to Mike, like, that was you guys who saved me. That was you guys. And when Mike says, looks like it's going to be asking, Will says, it always is, isn't it, that the place that not just 11, but so many of these characters, Hopper, to your point from a minute ago, et cetera, not just the kids, right, have found a sense of belonging and the kind of comfort and understanding that allows them to be more wholly themselves is just absent in a really stark way

in other time periods and locations and relationships in their lives. And so it makes that thing that they have found together feel even more precious. The Brenner question is a really good one because, and I was curious to ask you about this, he's like very tender toward 11 throughout these three episodes. And whether that is a bit of wisdom that he's attempting to impart or, you know, a gentle pat on the shoulder to try to comfort her. But when she's in Nina, when she's in the tank and we get to see Brenner and Owens together, for example, we see as always that she's a piece on the board, right? She's a part of the game. And I was struck then to think back to the opening sequence in the first episode of this season where we see Brenner going through his daily ritual, the crossword, everything we talked about last time.

And we get that sequence with him in 10 during 10's lessons, drawing the sun, drawing the dog that 10 thinks is a cow. And again, the sort of like loving tenderness that Brenner seems to be imparting in his relationships with the kids. And I'm not sure how I felt pretty like unmoored by that. And I think that's the intention, right, to make us unsure of what he is trying to actually establish with these kids. because he does seem to have a fondness for them, but they are tools for him, they are weapons for him. We have seen the horror that he has inflicted.

How much was that always true? And how much changed because of what happened in that key moment, in that key memory? I think putting kids in a lab, no matter what means you're already, you know, you're already there. And before, and taking Jane away from Terry, that's the thing. I'm in the same place. Like, we can't let ourselves forget all of the horrors that he inflicts,

that he inflicted. And I think it's underlined before that. If when she's in the tank, if Owens is like the good cop in that scenario, right, the only one who is occasionally like, are we going too far? Should we do this? Is this okay? Do we need to help her? All that sort of stuff.

But then you rewind back to the end of episode three in the beginning of four where, or actually it's five because she's gone for all the four, right? Where he's just laying this con job on her. Like it's your choice. you get to decide, look at all these people are here because you're so important. And then when she tries to run, what do they do? They grab her and they grab her.

The injection. Shaving her head, putting her in the hospital. Yeah. So she's a prisoner. So Owens, even though we like to think of him as, you know, occasionally, you know, Will has his instinct about him, right? Like he couldn't save me. Like, why would we put all of our faith in him?

Right. You know, and Riser has always been such interesting metacasting because of his aliens role. Like that's why he's in here, this like corporate interest kind of guy. Yeah. And even if he's well, more, relatively speaking, more well-intentioned, he's still complicit, right?

Because he is still bringing her to this place. And again, it's sort of a farce, this idea that she or anybody in that situation would have any choice. And so I think to get back to your initial question, I think it's smart to put us as viewers in that same even though we have the logical parts of our brain activating and reminding us of all of these things and not allowing us to buy inner trust, we have these same moments of vulnerability that 11 or any other person would experience where the soothing embrace,

that that desire to believe that somebody who has failed you before, deeply, deeply failed you and misled you and used you, might actually have your best interest at heart when you know that that isn't true. That's pretty compelling. I want to swing back to one thing and then use it to jump to the next, which is something you said about these kids, about this idea of found family. It reminds me of one of my favorite quotes from a Stephen King film actually stand by me where Richard Dreyfus's narrator character as he's like telling this whole story about this adventure that these kids have in the woods going to try to find a dead body, right? and he's writing about it and he's looking back on it and he says, I never had any friends later on like the ones I had when I was 12. Jesus does anyone,

which is one of my favorite lines in like all of cinema. But I think that's a core part of what the Duffer brothers are using into this, which is just sort of like, it's so special this, you know, these kids on bikes running around together. And similarly, I wanted to use that to sort of transition into a film I know you watched recently and talked about on the rewatchables, which is ET, right? Yeah. This ambly an idea of kids on bikes in ET, in the Goonies, in various things stems directly out of as we launched into the 80s.

Like, why was this so prevalent in the 80s? Why was this such a thing in the 80s? And I think it has to do, I mean, smarter people than me have talked about this before, but it has to do with this whole end of the 70s thing. Like, I don't think it's a coincidence, actually, that Dustin, is making Watergate jokes because, and maybe this is just me being informed by the fact that I'm obsessed with the TV series Gaslight right now, but like thinking about 1979, Jimmy Carter, president of the United States, gives this famous speech about a crisis of confidence,

right? We have a crisis of confidence in our government, in our structures, in our, in our, all of our levels of authority. And that's what Stranger Things has always been so interested in, which is distrusting authority, distrusting the government, and then distrusting even the parents. And it's just going to have to be the kids. The kids are going to have to do this. The kids are going to have to feel this through. And how much of that hangs over the 80s in both these kid adventure movies

and even in these teen horror movies. The parents are never helpful here. How do you think that's interacting? I mean, especially with what we see with the town hall meeting. that happens in these episodes. How are you feeling about that theme as it resonates through this middle section here? What a great question.

So I think that there's a spectrum, right? Because you have, it was amazing to finally get a moment where you had these family units in Hawkins finally come together. Like, I've had so many moments watching stranger things over the years from, like, why are Mike's parents and Lucas's parents and Dustus? Like, why aren't they on the phone with each other more trying to figure out where their kids are? And that's some of it's just because this was a different moment in time.

We weren't all, like, you know, find my friends tracking each other and sending our little, like, Apple Maps ETA, right? It was a really unique little guy. I was thinking about that this morning. I was like, because I grew up in the 80s, you grew up in the late 80s, 90s. Like, does it feel like it was such a different time it does that, like, before then? I'd say it's true sort of in the 70s, too. But I think before then, like, because maybe because, like, like, maybe because, like, like, like moms were made to be at home more or whatever it is.

I think there was like that tighter control on kids and then we swung out and then we swung back. Anyway, sorry, go on. Yeah, but I can think of like all of those, you know, I was born in 86, September of 86. So a few months after this season of the show is set, but I can think of so many afternoons in like elementary school, just riding my bike around the neighborhood with my friends and that feeling of freedom that you have the possibility to get to explore and have an adventure, right? and then when you actually start to, as you noted, lose faith. And this is not, I'm not saying I ever went to, like, solve a mystery on part with the upside down. I was mostly looking for, like, a snowball and some marshmallow topping. But when you start to lose faith in the structure around you and you realize that you have the capacity to do something on your own, it's a really empowering thing.

So with the parents, I'll take this moment to shout out the season four tour de force. from our guy Ted Wheeler. This is just... And Ted has always been one of the poster parents on the show for just a total lack of awareness, like absenteeism.

Does this guy have any idea what is going on? The most meaningful plot impact that he's ever had was in season three when the legend Blono saw him napping in the recliner with Holly

and felt a pang of guilt and affection for her family and decided not. to go meet Billy, right? Ted in these episodes, saying to Dustin, you could try sticking together at a different house for a change, not like, oh, I'm so glad we have eyes on all of you, right? Why are you always here eating my food loitering in my home?

Or when he later says, I think at this point, anything is possible in Karen's like, our children are not murderers, Ted? And he says, don't put words in my mouth. See, she does that twist my words. he's a he's a representation of an archetype of a certain type of parent. Then you have the parents like Joyce who are super invested, super plugged in, would do anything, would go literally to the ends of the earth to protect their children. But even then in this period of time and inside of the story, made the decision not, as we talked about last episode,

to tell the kids that there was a chance Hopper was alive to like withhold that crucial bit of information that would be the most meaningful thing in the world to them. if they knew it, right? And so with Hopper, I think he's an interesting one because, again, why is L maybe prone too long for this kind of relationship?

Well, even L and Hopper, their relationship is one of the most meaningful things in the show to me, and I loved it so much in seasons two and three. But Elle rebels, Elle and Mike can't wait to challenge everything that Hopper's throwing at them. And Hopper has to ask Joyce

for help with talking to them about basically what it means to grow up. So the nature of the relationship between the parents, even the most well-intentioned one, even the most loving and active ones, I think you're right. What you said before, you almost like have to remove that completely for the kids to make this final breakthrough. Yeah. I think that's so interesting. Also, I'm forever just like in love with your love for Carabono.

I've just absorbed it so much from Chris Ryan via osmosis, but she is really, she's just on a legendary run in this television program. And I love it. And we have Susie's dad who's kind of an embodiment of all of that, like the father who was literally locked away in a room using something he took from his child because he doesn't trust her to have it and has no idea what's unfolding around him. I don't understand anything that happens in that household. We'll get to that in a second. I loved it. The last big picture thing I want to talk about is this idea of memory and trauma, right? Because this is like the clear parallels here are Max and 11, right? And the way in which Max uses, she's haunted by these traumatic memories, but then she is able to escape with these fonder memories that she has, these flashbacks to shopping sprees and, you know, school dances and whatever else the case may be with the kids. And then you've got 11 who's trying to work through a traumatic memory in order to regain her power.

You know, Hopper's obviously a nostalgic, reflective mood. You've got like several other memories. And part of that is like, stranger things folding back in on itself, like looking back at its own run of seasons. But I don't know. I think that's a really interesting. And you've got, you've got Victor Creel, of course, like his memory. that info dump. Like, the way in which this season is trying to talk about trauma and memory and the way in which

these things can either haunt you or if you're done carefully and slowly and methodically help you if you dig into a memory, you know, while in a deprivation tank and a white onesie. So, I don't know. What are your memory and trauma thoughts and feelings about this season? Yeah, I have a lot, and I'll follow up on that maybe as we go character by character in some more contextually specific ways. But broadly, I'll say that I was struck by the conflict that was presented in these episodes, the direct opposition between Papa saying to the group, now this is very important if you allow anger or emotion to invade your thoughts, you will fail. I promise you, do you understand?

and then 11 channeling, internalizing, acting on the lesson that Peter had given her about actually tapping into a memory that makes you sad or angry, right? And those are opposed ideas. And then the other variable is something like what happens with Max, with the memories, the flashbacks, you know, at the snowball with Lucas, shopping with Elle, all of the scenes with her friends,

where those happy thoughts are presented as the antidote to Vecna weaponizing the painful memories. Happy memories are the thing that you can use to challenge that. Now, I was, it won't shock you to hear

powerfully struck by the Petronus comp here, right? Like the Petronus like effect that the music in general has for Max, but it was less so even the music. The music was the way to open the fog

and see her friends. It was her friends, ultimately. and the flashes of those memories that's seeing them sparked. And it's like, it reminds me, on the one hand, it reminds me of, you know, like a moment in, in Deathly Hallows where Harry is surrounded by Lily and James and Sirius and Lupin. And it's like one of my favorite lines, you know, the Dementor's chill did not overcome him.

He passed through it with his companions and they acted like Petronus's to him. Like the people that you care about the most can become the magic and the protection for you. But then the, then, because that line in that moment is like one of the most, flattering comparisons I can make in terms of something that I love in a story. So then I have to swing back and say, on the one hand, it's emotionally impactful, but does it feel inside of these episodes like to DeSex Machinae? Because it's introduced just right on the brink of meeting it.

You know, we learn about the music. We learn about the power to provide this lifeline mere minutes before it's going to come into play. Like, did it feel like it was embedded enough in the character journeys and the mythology of the story to land fully. Not only that, but the way that hatched the lead psychiatrist

at the asylum says it, she just drops it in such an unnatural way as they're like sort of walking through this music room. So that all did feel like it came together a little clunky. They at least like seated in the Walkman and the Cape Bush earlier.

Like we had already seen Max listening to the song. And I like that Lucas had to be there. Lucas, who knows her better than anyone else, like, has to be the one to figure out what the song would be. It's also a great song, so great that we don't mind hearing it sort of faintly over and over and over again for the rest of the season. And it's funny, on the Max beat, like, I remember you said in the last conversation we had, like, you weren't really worried about Max. I will say, I honestly wouldn't mind if they sounds so like callous but like I wouldn't mind if some of these stakes got a little higher

for how much these kids are playing with fire and in these adventures like Steve just swim into the bottom of the lake and touching a portal like what was the plan there why did that ever seem like the thing to do swimming co-captain certified lifeguard um but then you don't stay in the water where tentacle might get you. We're all like, get out of the water, Steve.

The, uh, when Max is running and the portal is closing, I genuinely, I'm, maybe this is just me watching too many Joss Whedon shows, but I was definitely thought she was like, not going to make it. I thought the portal was going to close on her. That we were all like, she's going to make it. They're right there. She's going to make it. And then I thought maybe she wouldn't. And not necessarily that that would be the end of Max, but maybe that she would be trapped in that house of them for a while or whatever. Right. So, but then she didn't,

and she's fine. And as long as she keeps her headphones on, she's fine. And, you know, that's it. I don't know. She did pose the question. What if I get tired of this song? And it doesn't,

it's no longer my favorite, you know? Too bad. Kate Bush is eternal. There's no, there's no getting tired. All right, let's do our little like character by character. We're not going to go again,

too deep, deep, deep on this. We will, we will dive deep in the finale. But the 11th stuff we get, we get, you know, we're getting more and more into this lead up to whatever happened in 1979. We get her bullying experience. Again, these bullies are just beyond vicious in a way that I don't fully understand.

But I have a question for you about the tiny L, tall L technique. I don't know that I fully need it. Do you know what I mean? Like, I think that if you just put L in a flashback and show me tiny L once, I would just buy into the concept and I don't need the concept. and I don't need the constant reminders that she's tiny. How do you feel about it? I don't know if I have a strong feeling on it one way or another, honestly.

Like, I think you're, as a viewer, aware of where you are in the timeline, but it's helpful still because we are moving around through so many different character arcs and so many different moments and time and memories to have that, like, orienting, reorienting principle. I think it's also just interesting to see L. consider herself. That's the part I liked about it, I think. That's interesting. And especially because she's needing to revisit all of these traumatic moments from her life because that's what Brenner needs. That's what Owens needs. They're on the clock, right? She's going to sink. No, she'll swim.

None of that is her choice. And so these moments where she gets to pause and really assess her own life, I liked especially because it's part of this larger question about how exactly the the flashes that 11 is experiencing before she's in Nevada are back in her memory set because a big part of the plot in these episodes is that she does not remember. She doesn't remember the bulk of this. Is it possible that the vicious bullying in California started the triggering of that time? That was my read on it because not only the combo of the experience and then also the actual language parallels between Mike saying to her, what did you do?

and then cutting to the flashback of Papa saying, what did you do? That maybe that, the similarity in the adjacencies there would have called up those flashes, even though she does not have the full picture of that exact sequence yet. Right. So it's a delicate balancing act.

I think ultimately it worked. I think also I want to just drop in on this idea of agency for Elle because I can't really figure out if this was a false promise or not, but it feels like she's offered a choice. you've got some of your power back that you can use maybe temporarily, but if you work with me, I can bring you back to full power. In fact, maybe even more powerful than ever before. And that's when she calls him Papa and takes his hand, right?

And she walks herself back into the lab. And so I think whether or not that was a genuine offer he was making her or if they were just going to come and drug her again if she decided not to, I think that, um, it speaks to what we were talking about last time, which is, you know, L doesn't want to be a normal girl because even as a normal girl, she doesn't feel like a normal girl. And so this offer of you can have your powers back so you can feel shiny and special and not in that vulnerable place that you, I mean, I'm using normal with air quotes around it, but like not in that vulnerable space you felt like in California, you can go back to being the shiny superhero, the apple of Mike's eye, all that sort of stuff. Like these are the things that she's worried about that he's offering to fix for her, right? Yeah, absolutely. And the explanation even that he provides of where what happened with her powers in the first place,

the comp that he makes to a stroke and the way that he anchored that information download in, again, like the inside of 11's mind, not, oh, because it could have been something like, hey, the bite. The bite in season three. there was a toxin that was put into your blood, right? But that's not, that's not actually. Right. It was centered in her mind just as the way forward is.

And then you pair that with, you know, the note that she leaves to Mike and that language of, I have gone to become a superhero again. And she signs it from Elle on the heels of the from Mike. Love that from her, honestly. She just says that great stuff. Great stuff in the prior episodes. and it is so sad to me. We talked about this a little bit last time.

I understand structurally that the show will move back to 11 having her powers, and that'll be a pretty crucial part of the end game, I assume, of the rest of not only this season but this series. And I think we'll probably speculate on that more in our next pod. But it is so sad to me, again, that she feels like she has to do this in order to be the fullest version of herself. and you have that sequence with the kids where, you know, Max is saying, we need all to get her powers back.

And Steve is saying everything was way easier. We had this girl. She had superpowers. And I was just like, yeah, you mentioned her, you know? I love that for many. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it. Yeah. And it's like, meanwhile, you guys are there.

You're doing it. Like, you found Skull Rock. You took a little while after the whole compass plot in season one. But eventually you remembered that whole compass plot and you figured out that the compass was pointing you toward a gate. you've found the gate. Like, they can do it, actually. And that doesn't make Elle any less special,

but I think that they're going to have to keep walking that line where every other character embraces their own ability to impact the story and their own fate, right? And where Elle realizes that she's more than just whatever comes out of that tank or whatever the person who's next to her at a table or a room in a given moment tells her she gets to be. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Trimphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start.

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about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfairadio.com. This episode is brought to by Paramount Plus. Beth and Ripper back at a new series, Dutton Ranch. Kelly Riley and Colehouser returned, and this time they're taking on Texas. As Beth and Rip build a future together, peace will have to wait as they face corruption, danger, and a ruthless rival ranch willing to protect its secrets at all costs. Legacy is a beautiful thing, but only if it survives. Dutton Ranch starring Colehous or Kelly Riley, Annette Benning and Ed Harris, now streaming on Paramount Plus.

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Order now at order. Sweetgreen.com. All right. Let's talk about list. Let's wrap up California. really quick because we all left California. Everyone left California, right? We'll come back to a lot with L and, oh, for sure. And Peter and everything there. There's a lot more. We could honestly do probably just like an hour on that here. There's a lot to parse. So we will, we should,

I think we should just mention one thing, which is a key moment, is just that in one of the memories we see Peter tells 11 about one. And he tells her in the same exchange Sometimes Papa doesn't tell the truth. He's planting these seeds of doubt directly with 11 about Papa. And he's also, in addition to the memory lesson that we mentioned already, giving her this larger sense of the world that they inhabit together. This is also key new information for us as viewers. And then we see that he is being punished. Punished.

And dragged. For interacting. Yes. And for interacting with 11, the book that Brenner gives him. There's just constant Brenner says this thing, like with the camera in my lab sees everything, right? So we're constantly getting shots of the camera, of the camera POV, of Brenner sort of casting glances around and stuff like that. So that's all in the mix there. I do want to talk about Mike and Will real quick.

So before we leave California in this sort of like spectacular, Sean Levy, the director of the episode, flexing his like, I make movies skills by giving us a oneer. shootout of the house, we get what you and I like, which is conversations and rooms. We get a pair of Mike and Will conversations. One is about 11, and Mike feeling like that the fight that they had was like real or adult, something you can't come back from. And then they have another conversation where they sort of start to heal the rift in their friendship, where Mike tries to sort of explain himself. And he's talking about how when Will left Hawkins, yeah, Dustin and Lucas are still there and he loves them and he's got the Hellfire Club and all of that's happening. But he says it's Hawkins. It's not the same without you. I feel like I lost you or something. And he says, we're friends,

best friends. And the look on Will's little face, right? When, you know, he says, best friends. This was. And then Will breaks his painting. Pack the painting in that moment. Yes. This was so touching and we got a follow-up moment to when they're on the road, because that was when they're packing up at home on the road later, talking about Elle again and talking more specifically about opening up, because Mike is like sharing some regret that he has about not knowing what to say to Elle. And Will replies to him giving his friend some counsel, but also clearly speaking, we think, you know, about himself. Sometimes I think it's just scary to open up like that to say how you really feel.

especially to people you care about the most because what if what if they don't like the truth? That was just heartbreaking. That scene that you mentioned, which happens sort of like in that junkyard, right, is so interestingly shot. There's, you know, besides some of the flashy stuff,

there's some interesting camera placements in this season. And one of those, like, they're shot, I mean, there's a couple different shots on that, but one of them is like from far away through some junkie cars, like, far away sitting on the hood of a car. We're like, the camera's placed behind something

where we're looking through something at them. And I think it just speaks to like, you know, either the director was like, let's just put the camera here, or I choose to read into like, you know, the things that are in the way

of wanting to connect with someone. So, um, so yeah, so Will and Mike, as you, as you mentioned, it's in the way

be a massive plume of marijuana smoke. I do want to talk about Argyle. I want to talk about Argyle. But I think that you mentioned that we don't get a lot of Mike this season. And that's true. So far. So far that's true. And or will, for that matter.

But I think they are making sure that the little moments that we do have with them are really tender. And a lot of the emotional wellspring for the season. And then there's. comedy with with argyle big fan of argyle big fan of his pineapple and pizza monologue the whole surfer boy pizza sequence him rolling up to uh i sent this clip actually to friends of mine him rolling up to the buyers california house and being like me and buyers having a party without me that's not cool that's not cool man like i just you know classic like basically spicoli but it's just it's great stuff absolutely i think my two favorite Argyle moments in the stretch were when

as they were heading into Susie's home, Mike, you know, reminded the group that they're very religious. And Argyle says, I'm like, super spiritual, dude. Ciconic. And the absolutely incredible moment before them when they're connecting the dots on the Susie plan and Will sings, you know, a bar calling back to the Dustin Susie never-ending story, musical moment from season three.

And Argyle says, that scared the shit out of me, the nothing man. That's some proper existential shit right there. Like very meta line for this story. I love that. Argyll is my best friend. All right. So let's go to Susie's house. Something, a sequence that you love that I'm less sure of, to me, it kind of feels like an excuse to use Susie again when the plot doesn't really demand it.

I'm trying to figure out what the reference they're going for here is. If it's like cheaper by the dozen, which of course, like, as the Steve Martin movie came out after this, there's obviously an earlier movie from like the 30s, I think, or the 40s maybe. Or don't tell mom the babysitter's dead or home alone. Like, what are we doing with all these creative kids

running amok in this house here? Or does it matter? It's a great question. I don't know the answer to it, but I can tell you that I hope season five of Stranger Things is directed by the child who was making the movie.

with his sister Tabava and said, Father, your terror, it looked genuine. Such a delight. I don't know. I think that in a way, it definitely connects to the question you were posing earlier about kind of all of the flash and the pomp and the circumstance of the spectacle across these episodes.

Would it have been better to just have another, especially because of how impactful the moments between like Mike and Will are? Would it have been more impactful to have another just quiet conversation? But definitely possible. I think that one of the things I also love about stranger things, and this is not like the airplane crash, you know, a question from earlier.

But something like this is just the chaos and unpredictability of youth. And I like as precocious and inventive and ingenious as these kids are, like the number of times in these three episodes in particular where Dustin has just the question in the exact moment that he needs or just the insight in the exact moment. Or Nancy goes full Nancy Drew and solves it again. And I actually like the reminder that other kids in this world are smart and inventive too and are having their own fun and their own adventure. So I found it like kind of anchoring in a way that

I enjoyed. I will say that like Dustin has so many answers to so many questions, but I did like the moment where he's like, we really need Will man. Like when Susie makes her drawing and he's like, what the hell is this basically? He's like artistically, we need Will. I will is obviously very advanced with the with the crayons you know we had the entire inside of the buyer's home covered in season two with the vine map I thought that Max's is oh sorry Max's drawing of Vecna's was incredible she got she made puzzle pieces of the house yeah she made you know and then and then and then bravo Nancy for able being able to origami it together that was it was a pretty pretty cool moment it was great All right, that brings us to Hawkins. Should we go to Hawkins? Let's do it.

All right. First, I want to talk about Jason and the jocks really quickly as like a villainous presence this season. They disappear for like a whole, an episode and a half. There was like halfway through, I think it was episode four. I was like, where are the jocks? What are they doing? I didn't miss them, but I was like, where are they?

I thought the sequence with, I think is Patrick on the basketball team, dying over the water. That was stunning and great Eddie's panic. Jason in the water, all that sort of stuff was great, I thought. And then we get to this town hall meeting. And this is something, Joe Me's not here today. He'll be here for the finale. But Jomey was texting me.

He's like, uh, no way. They're letting this kid run the mic at the town hall. What's going on here? And I was like, why didn't the cops try to cut his mic at all? But I think it does speak to that thing we were talking about earlier, which is in the last episode about satanic panic. Yeah. And also the Salem Witch Trials and how often it was like,

you know, in the crucible, the most famous story about the Salem witch trials, it's one youth accusing another youth and sort of whipping up hysteria in the community. And so that really works for me. And the fact that the season starts with Jason running the mic at the pep rally and quoting scripture then and quoting scripture now, like all of that sort of stuff, I think I think they laid proper track for that. What do you think? Yeah, I think too, it connects to the larger, we talked last week about, or last week, God. What is time? Joe, who can say?

We talked last pod about how much we loved that cafeteria sequence from Eddie, where he's talking about the nerds and the jocks and conformity is the real danger to society. And I thought that there was something really thematically, like, rich and resonant about the fact that so many members of the town are actually willing to just believe the handsome, a popular basketball star, you know? Are they going to believe the members of the Hellfire Club? Are they going to believe Eddie? Are they even going to believe their own kids?

Probably not, right? But they have, it wasn't like quite the rapturous reception that he receives at the pep rally. Right. But there was a quality I was struck. I was struck by the quality of like preaching to the congregation, right? and like could you have just shifted a few things and seen him in the the snake handling preacher sequence of Justified? It's like not that far away.

I was literally just thinking about that scene from Justified or any time honestly Boyd Crowder decides to take the mic and try to run the show. That's so funny. It's same. It's same. I will. One of our many shared favorites. But I think that I think now is a really important time to talk about Eddie. and to talk about

why do you think it is you know my theory why do you think it is that Eddie calls Nancy Wheeler everyone else calls her Nancy Wheeler they use

I just want to clear out here for some ice soapball for you because you're reading on this is my favorite thing in years because I laughed

so hard when you put this in the dock they called Dustin Henderson they use less names on some of these who have buyers

like blah right but Nancy's always been called Nance as far as we know from various people.

He calls her Wheeler in a way that feels like kind of familiar. My theory was that given how we're pretty sure Nancy should have graduated like two years ago and we know that Eddie is a three-time senior. Is he that familiar with her because they've both been repeating senior year for three years? This killed me. Is that Eddie's connection to Nancy? This made me laugh so hard. Whether Nancy and Jonathan have actually always been this age and I just somehow missed it or they

did in fact, Redcon there ages, no longer matters to me because this is my new official head cannon what you have just shared here on this podcast. I think the actual answer is probably that he's in a club with with her brother, Mike, and probably just has been saying Wheeler a lot, and it feels like normal and natural to him, but I'm going with your explanation, which I love. Also, got a shout out Eddie. I know he was not thrilled about it. He was scrounging for scraps at Reefer Ricks abode SpaghettiOs. I, when I, when I haven't had a can of Spadios in Eons, but when I, I was a kid, probably in the top, maybe top five, certainly top 10 list of things that I consumed

the most. I would have a fact about me. All the time. Fun fact about me, I've never had a spaghetti-o ever in my life. You're kidding. Uh-uh. I've never had a spaghetti-o. I was like a top ramen blue flavor person.

I also love ramen. If he had cracked out a pack of top ramen, I'd have been like, ah, yes, my youth. Or cup of noodles. Oh, my God. But, but, yeah. Love cup of noodles, too. Why not all of it? Anything else that we haven't said about Max that we should say, I thought the return of Billy was really well, you know, that's an excellent use of a character that never actually really worked for me. But like I thought it was great to bring him back here.

Works for all the moms. Born and Hawkins. I'm super into it. The letter structure of the episode reminded me a lot of one of my favorite lost episodes. greatest hits when Charlie is sort of knows he's going to die and is putting down a list of stuff here. I thought this was really great work from Sadie Sink. What do you think? Agreed. I think she's been awesome all season. Even the moment where like she's asking earlier in the season if she's going to get one of the t-shirts and like making fun of the facial expressions. Really? Mike's like, oh, you're mocking me. Really great. But I thought that the letter was so,

So she had to land the performance and they had to land the writing of that because these are characters who actively despised each other. And that was what ultimately was so impactful about it is that she steers into that head-on, right? Like the part where she said that

I imagine that we could have become friends. Yeah. Good friends like real brother and sister. And I know that stupid. You hated me. I hated you, but I thought that maybe we could try again. Like that really hit me because that idea of being robbed

of the ability to try again is a real through line for a lot of these characters it's one of the things that unites them across and you know we'll talk about Hopper I think very very briefly but maybe we can just abet it here even

like I now we'll talk about it later I don't know if we'll talk about it later I'll just say quickly in case we don't that it won't shock you'd here I was in general I agree with you about all of the monologues and the Russian person sequences the specific download of his

grief and shame in terms of the guilt that he carries from his past, I was moved by and, again, was just struck by how many of the characters have their version of that. The person that they think they failed, their fear that they won't be able to protect somebody again. And I don't know if this is cynical me. Like, we don't know when or if Hopper is making it back to Hawkins, Indiana, but we have to imagine it's going to happen before the season's over. to be really clear, we don't know. Mallory and I, honestly, on the microphone with you right now, don't know. But, like, my first thought when he was exposing that vulnerability in himself is, like, does that make him vulnerable to Vecna? Do you know what I mean? Like, could he start, and, and it's going to be my question for Hopper, it's my question for you right now. What song would bring you back from the upside down, Mallory Ruman? Oh, my goodness. So it's not necessarily. it could be favorite song, but it's really more the song you never tire of, the song that you can listen to on Loop Endlessly, and that always...

The thing is, I like a lot of sad music. Me too. A lot of them are sad. Yeah, a lot of the music is like a super, super somber. Like, my favorite song is, if you see her say hello, which is like one of the saddest Dylan songs. I love that. I'll go with... I think he had Dylan song's a good idea because you should pick a long song.

Yeah, that's not one of his super long ones, but I could pick a... I could pick a really long one. I'll go with, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to go with some Billy Joel. Going to have the little, the pep and the energy that we need on our, the very quiet soundtrack across our nine hours of TV here. I'm going to go with the longest time, one of my favorite songs. I can listen to that 500 times in a row and never get tired of it.

Do you know if you ever get stuck in like a creepy disassembled mansion in the upside down? I know how, I know all the words the longest time. I sang into my acopalue group in college. So if you need to like to like acapella you out of the upside down, I can. I need that whether or not I ever get lost in any sort of other dimension. I'm hoping that we can make that happen right here on the pot. I mean, right now, if you're up for it, if not, maybe at a later date, love that song. I'll consider doing a finale.

I have been a fool for lesser things. One of the great lyrics. I love that song. It's a great song. I think you're mine. I was trying to think of one that like modulates a lot like that feels like a whole ride. So it's harder to get tired of.

And it's long. I would say, and I can listen to it endlessly. I think it's Jeff Buckley's lover you should have come over. It's a really long song. It's a very sad song. But it like almost feels like five songs together like paces together. Wow. What a great pick.

Yeah. All right. That will, that's what. will rescue it. If you see us in a trance dangling in the air, you know what to put on... Break out your walk, man. Yeah. Get out your walkman or, you know, Spotify. Bring up the Spotify.

You know, yeah. Listen to the ring of this. Let's just say. Okay. Steve and Dustin, my best friends for the rest of my life, my favorite people on the planet. First of all, number one, I love that Steve stupidity is a good excuse for Dustin to explain what's going on to us, the audience. Love weaponizing Steve's stupidity.

Dustin was too mean to Steve in these episodes. That's my take. But Steve is mean to Dustin. I love that in their relationship. I think that when Steve said when they're trying, one of the many moments where they're trying to suss out, this was like the timeline question.

You know, Lucas is asking if the gates it existed in the 50s, how to affect it? They're trying to figure out the timeline and he's like, straightforward my ass. You know, honestly, Henderson, a little humility now and then it wouldn't hurt you.

I loved that. Or when he'd be. I love when he calls Dustin a butthead and Eddie agrees. You are a butthead. What a fun 80s things say. Also, shout it to Justin's Sherlock impression. This is my favorite thing about the timeline here. Oh, this was great.

Yeah. would watch the Jeremy Brett 1980s Sherlock Holmes together, and that's where his impression comes from. I love this. It's certainly not Robert Donnie Jr.'s quote-unquote, which chef said that he's doing. A great quote and a great impression from Dustin that then just chefs kiss perfection,

Steve tried to recreate for Nancy and just completely botched. Mangled. Wonderful. Steve also, we have to say, we can't end the podcast without saying because I think this was something that we're very fond of Steve. He's a shared fave.

Didn't know what Mordor was. Tough one for our guy, Steve the Hare of Harrington. And like this episode ends with a cliffhanger of like Steve is getting snacked on in the upside down. Imagine dying before you get to read Lord of the Rings. Devastating. I don't want that for Steve.

Devastating. So let's hope he's okay. Okay, Robin and Danz, let's just talk about their little adventures really quickly. Robin, I've never felt so seen by a character on this show Joe, then when Robin was complaining about having to dress up, the itchy clothes, the tight bra, fuck it. Give me the pajamas.

Me too. I'm with you, Robin. Hard same. Also, for me, it was also when she was talking about how long coordinated she is when running. Robin, such a relatable icon. Love her to death. I also love, you know, so they go undercover.

They do their little, like, Silence of the Lambs undercover bit. We get a Robert England cameo, of course, horror master. Apparently, Robert has been like, lost. robbing the duffers for years to have a role on the show, and they finally found this for him. But this is, you know, the actor who plays Freddie Krueger, plays Victor Creel, tells his whole backstory, which is a very like Amniville horror, American horror story sort of thing. I feel like the dream a little dream of me music cue is like a Freddie Krueger reference, possibly, like, he's in your dreams, etc. We also, you know, on the chalkboard when they walk past at the, at the, at the, at Penhurst. There are song titles scribbled on the, that was in the listening room.

Moonlight serenade, red sails in the sunset, I'll see you in my dreams, wrap your troubles in dreams. So that kind of continues in the little Easter eggs in the chalkboard. Music has a calming effect on the broken mind, didn't you know? Robin's incredible speech that she gives to like con them into this whole thing before she bungles it later. Just incredible stuff. My Hawk?

What a winner. She's great. No notes. No notes for Robin. I love that because even though, of course, the whole thing is a farce and they're playing out of con, a lot of what she was saying was anchored in truth, right? Yeah. Great stuff.

Did you think that there was a potential clue in that sequence when they were walking outside and Hatch just giving them a tour of the premises and they ask, you know, could the patients escape? And he says they could, but the vast majority choose to be here. They like it here. Like, is there any sort of connection to that? idea with either the upside down more broadly or, and I think we'll probably circle back to this in the next pot because we don't have a lot of time to parse it here, but this like third

realm that Vecna seems to be inhabiting. You know, Max says that like she wasn't supposed to make it to that point that she did. He didn't seem happy that she found him there. And also like, we see him plugged in in the upside down, in the creel house. We see the creel house. And then there's this third place. And the, the closest thing that I could. think of in terms of the associations of elsewhere. I thought the third place was the Creel House. So this is what I'm asking. So like,

okay, we have the regular world, right? We have Hawkins. And then when we're, when they're in, we'll use the Creel House as the anchoring point. The camera flips, we see Vecna plugged in in the attic of the Creel House and the upside down. But then where's this psychic dimension, this other third realm where he's interacting

with Max. Like, because that's where the Creel House is shattered. Oh, the shattered Creel House. The red, foggy The place where he has Fred and Chrissy wrapped in the vines and the spires. And the reason I was, you know, Dustin again, kind of coming through with the lines we need, he's saying, well, did maybe you found the, maybe you penetrated his mind. Is it such a leap, right? And I'm interested in that because, again, of 11, you know, if we think back to season one and L's initial encounter with the demigorgan and the way that she has used this sensory deprivation across the seasons to make some sort of psychics.

connection, this third, like, I'll call it the psychic realm for shorthand, I guess, and like what is unfolding there. And Max even says at one point, of fact, not like, you're not really here. And he says, I am. And I just thought that was interesting because it felt like a totally distinct location from the upside down in the regular, the regular place. I hadn't thought about that, that we see the, the grill house intact. Because he's always plugged in in the upside down. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Great point. Did you know, we always like to talk about the camera spins. Did you notice when they're in the house and the camera spins from the kids to Vecna in the attic. By the way, you asked me how I was doing on the

horror front, the haunted house sequence scared the shit out of me. I loved it. Say that on the record. To genuinely do not unsettling to me. We get then shortly after when L, after she smacks Papa in the face, the paddles is running out, we get that same spin of the camera. And it's right on the heels of seeing that with Vecna on the upside down. I think that, I mean, TUD. But you were talking about Robin and Creel. I'm sorry. The Creel information was the download was a rich text. There was a lot there. There's a lot there. I think the thing that he says

that honestly speaks to your point is the idea of all evil must have a home hiding nesting. You know? Yes. It's so funny that you mentioned that the Penhurst inmates don't escape. Inmates, patients is what I should say, not inmates. Don't escape because they like it there.

I thought you were going to make a connection to L. like could she try harder to escape where she is? No, there's something comforting about it for her. That's interesting. TBD in our finale discussion, but I have really quick question. We'll come back to the Creel House. Yeah, I have a really quick question. Why is everyone so emotionally invested in Nancy and Steve's love relationship?

Like, so invested. Like, it's fine to want your friends to get together. But, like, so invested. This is tough for Jonathan. It really is. It's a rough one for Jonathan. The people are all Jonathan's friends do in theory, or most of them are. I think that Robin really wants Steve to be happy.

Right. And knows because of all of these exchanges they've had, you know, that car ride in the first episode where Steve's like, do I just want another relationship where it's just like, great casual sex, you know? And everyone watching is like, sounds amazing. What's the issue, Steve the Hare Harrington? But when Nancy's watching him taking it. his shirt off and she's looking at him and then Robbins looking at Nancy, looking at him, smiling because she sees that the affectionist still there. I don't know. It's, I guess, you know, it's one of the original ships of the show. Are you team Nancy Steve? Are you team

Nancy Jonathan? I'm team Steve being happy. Like Jonathan does the thing. I think everyone just want Steve to be happy. Not that they don't want Nancy to be happy. Jonathan does very little for me, but Nancy doesn't do like a ton more for me. So like if it makes Steve happy, sure, Nancy and Steve. But like overall, and here's the really unfair thing that happened. And again, I like Jonathan Byers actually the most in this season when he gets to be a pot head in California. But like

his wig, Charlie Hedon's wig is like doing nothing for him. And when you contrast it with, again, Steve the Harrington, it's a tough, it's a tough look. Speaking of the hair on Steve the Hare Harrington, do you have any thoughts or feelings about the chest hair? I do.

The Dustin has thoughts and opinions on? I do. Let's just say it for the record that canonically, Steve has graduated in his college age, even though he's not in college, and that he is played by Joe Kerry, a 30-year-old adult man. Now I will answer the question. I loved this sequence so much. The fact that, again, Nancy's looking at him.

Everyone's checking him out. And then Lucas is remarking through the binoculars. He can't believe how hairy Steve is. Dustin says, right? I keep telling him he needs to tame that jungle, but he claims the ladies dig it. And then Max asks to look and takes the binoculars and just keeps looking as Lucas and Dustin stand there with their eyes wide. iconic. This whole stretch with Steve shirtless, this has like the feel, like you could have just planted this right into Teen Wolf, right? This has like real, you know, 80s teen heartthrob energy. And I was thinking of a Johnny Depp and the original Nightmer in Ellen

Street, like, takes his shirt off for no reason. And it's just, like, laying on his bed of his shirt off listening to music on his headphones. You'll notice every, everybody else dives in to the lake fully dressed. Only Steve felt the need to disrobe. This was for Max and for us, I guess, and for Nancy. Steve. What a shout out to the death of brother. And, like, I mean, we should say that horror usually in the 80s would, like, give us a lot of shots of female bodies. So this is like a little, a nice little subversion from the deafers. All right. Should we talk about where you definitely don't want to go shortlist, which is Russia,

Siberia, essentially? Not much to say that we haven't already said about this. None of this. Every time we go back to this, I wasn't that interested, to be honest with you. Except I do want to shout out the fully sound work on the lighter, on the guard that Hopper eventually steals the letter from. There's two moments when he lights a cigarette. And both times, you just hear like every single metallic chink and flick of that lighter so that we know it's on him when Hopper steals it from him.

There's a monster in a prison. I'm sure. Which, of course, we saw in the Stinger in season three. So we've been waiting for this to surface here. when they walked past the door earlier and the flicker and they walked past the door and they stop and they think they're going to be taken to their fate and then it's to this room full of full of items to feast upon. A lot of meat.

A lot of, just a lot of, a lot of meat. Greasy meat. I have a real hang up about loud chewing, like a real hang up about loud chewing. And what I would describe like as is like unnecessary mouth noises. Ring of Earth contains adult content. You know, context specific, I guess. And that sequence, that meal was a difficult one for me to watch on that front. In terms of Hopper overall in this arc, you know, I, again, I'm just such an easy mark when it comes to Hopper.

I love this character. I love David Harper so much. And I'm invested in his happiness and him finding. the sense of purpose and comfort that he's seeking in his life. And so the the download that whole speech, which we already talked about a couple times, it worked for me, I think maybe better than it did for you. You know, like I was wrong this whole time. I wasn't cursed. I am the curse. That was so sad and I just wanted to give him a big hug and feed him peanut butter. But I was struck by how it felt wrong that he was saying

that to strangers, you know, because the key moments for a character like Hopper have really come when he's allowing himself to open up to someone like L or to someone like Joyce. And it just miss them being together. I really like, it's a delight, you know, a man is a delight and it's great to have our guy, Enzo, in the story. But I badly want Hopper to reunite with the cast. I think when I look back at Stranger Things overall, the sequel, having, and again, we don't know anything about, you know, volume two yet, who knows. But this much time passing where he is separate from the cast is not something I'm fond of. Can I do my impression of Enzo throughout this entire season?

American. What are you going to talk about crazy American? Like, crazy American. What do you say about that, American? That's great. Thanks. Call me next time you need a Russian. Okay.

we're just going to sum up here. Here we go. Wigwatch. You've got something to say here about wigwatch this week. If you not me. No, this is a question that I have for you because I have been waiting the entire time to ask you about this this 11 buzzcutt situation. Now again, thematically, very powerful. Eleven has found her sense of individuality, her own style. We got the great shopping sequences with Max and season three. What do you like? She's grown out her hair and to have these other people like rob her of of her individuality and her sense of self. Storytelling wise, great. What is going on with the wig?

So she had actually shaved her head in the first season, right? And so maybe it's just that it looks different. I think Millie Bobby Brown didn't want to shave her head. Yeah. And so it's just, it would have not struck me at all if that had all only been the thing we saw, but because we have the season one actual shaved head as a point of contrast. Is this a good wig? No.

Yeah. It's hard. If you're doing a buzzcut wig, that's so hard. It's too thick. Yeah, you can see so much skin if you're doing a buzz cut. And this is like, but you can't do that with a wig. Yeah, it's tough. Though I will say the tiny little double that they got for her that they

CGI'd her face on, does definitely have. That unknown actress did in fact shave her hair. So there you go. I have some questions like, you and I always get, it's natural to get a little distracted by like meta questions. Like you and I both, when you watch the show, sort of push Steve and Nancy back together. Like Charlie Heaton, who plays Jonathan and Natalia Dyer, who plays Nancy.

Like, they're a couple in real life. They have been for years. And so you and I both were like, did they break up in real life? And is that why Jonathan and Nancy have no scenes together this season? But all evidence to the contrary, they like walk the red carpet at the premiere together.

Like, they seem to still be together. I had a similar question about Millie Bobby Brown. Like, in a lot of the promo, I mean, we know that she sort of like was a breakout of the cast and sort of became, I think, a bit more famous than the rest of them, et cetera, at least so far. But like a lot of the promo, she's not involved. And so I had questions about like her being sort of isolated from most of the cast this season. Maybe there was like a shooting conflict with something she had to do. Who knows what logistics are involved.

But I had some questions about that. Interesting. But no answers. Just questions. All right. Easter eggs and majorly radical totally tubular 80s references. Anything you want to shout out, Mallory Rubin. Has to be war games.

Dialing up. Great movie. The number that they found inside of the pen and getting the modem tone piecing together. Because, and you, again, Jonathan and Archieller just, like, in a completely different experience than Will and Mike. Different movie entirely, maybe. Yes. Will and Mike are very much. much like war games and then you get the payoff of something like jonathan later asking susie

what the internet is wonderful stuff i loved it how about no big deal um also susy saying hold hold hold hold your butts not hold on to your butts but that's obviously a drastic perk uh reference which is a little early but that's okay um do you think susy will go on to write she contributed to michael cray did you not know she is actually michael crichton i don't know she is actually Michael Crichton. I don't know. She's a computer whiz, so. I have a lifelong phobia.

Most people do spiders, but I have it because I saw the film arachnophobia way too young. So if you've never seen that film, you could just skip it because you'll never want to stick your hand up a lampshade again to turn around Lys. So don't watch arachnophobia. I actually want to shout out. This is actually a really odd one, but I want to shout out. So in a completely throwaway moment, these old. men are on the on lover's lake fishing on lover's lake my god look at at reefer ricks and they're like

guess rick uh the justice system blah blah but they're listening to the song traveling man by rickie nelson and which is a 1950s joint and so just something i want to shout out is i love the authenticity of that because there's i mean they're older this is the song of perhaps their generation but also there's this 30 year cycle of nostalgia and something that i remember growing up in the 80s is that 50s nostalgia was super, super popular at the time. And so we were all, like, a lot of us were listening to 50s music in the 80s for no good reason whatsoever, except that 30-year nostalgia cycle. So I loved hearing a little Ricky Nelson in this.

All right, secret scroll watch. This is when Mallory and I, no matter what the property we're discussing, no matter if it's connected to the MC or not, pick a person who might be an undercover alien, an alien disguise as a human, Mallory, who's your pick this week? A man is a secret scroll I'm now convinced Zerga Anzo I'm very Ken

I'm gonna go with one of Susie's siblings and probably Tabitha Tabitha Susie's sister and or the one who's dressed like Ali Sheedy from the breakfast club One of those two We'll see

Quick reminder As I said at the top Please do sending questions for the finale episode Keep an eye out on the socials for that we want to hear your thoughts on Steve Harrington's chest hair, the chest hair, as Mallory mentioned, of a 30-year-old man, it's okay to talk about.

Or if you thought the Hauden House was too scary, or et cetera, et cetera, or what your song would be to pull you out of the upside down. I'm curious about all of those things. I want to hear them. Anything else you want to say before we head out, Mallory Rubin? You know, in the inspiring words of a guy, Argyle,

I'll try before you deny. Whether it's pineapple on your pizza, season four of Stranger Things, whatever the case may be. I will offer a quick warning to you all. If you saw Hop, dig into that Jif peanut butter and you got excited and nostalgic and you're like, maybe I too would like some Jif peanut butter. Jif peanut butter was recently recalled for, I think, Salmanilla. So, you know, maybe a different brand, that's what I would say. For your peanut butter preferences.

Just, I'm going to remind you one more time before we go. There's so much content on the Ring of Reverse feed. If you just tuned in for Stranger Things coverage and you're like, oh my gosh, there's Obi-Wan, there's Star Wars Celebration, there's Joe and Mal going really long on Obi-Wan on Monday, like whatever it is, whatever you need, we got you. We're here. We're talking about so much else going forward. The boys, Miss Marvel, etc. We're doing it all. So, follow us on social, all that good stuff. Try before you deny. You know where to find us. Thanks as always. to your junior rangipal for his production work on this. Jomi's not here, but he's always here in spirit. And because Steve is running around Anaheim, California, thanks, of course, to the work of Mike Wargan.

And we'll be back with the finale of Stranger Things. Thanks so much. Bye. What's the difference between butter and butter made from real California dairy? It's the real California farm families behind it. Real people. Real care. Real intention. Why? Because real matters. So whether you're pouring milk, melting cheese, or just grabbing one more spoonful of yogurt,

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