The Ringer-Verse - 'The Bad Batch’ Premiere Hype and 'Star Wars' Spinoffs

Episode Date: May 4, 2021

Mallory Rubin is joined by Ben Lindbergh of The Ringer to dive into the premiere of 'The Bad Batch,' the newest entry in the 'Star Wars' canon. Mal and Ben discuss where 'The Clone Wars' has taken us and why fans should be excited about this new spinoff (04:08). Later, they also talk about their five favorite canonical connections from this premiere and the broader 'Star Wars' story (52:33). Host: Mallory Rubin Guest: Ben Lindbergh Producer: Steve Ahlman Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal and TD St. Matthew-Daniel Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello. What's that? Adelausant human female. Origins. Uncertain. My name's Omega. I was wondering when you guys would come back. You know who we are.

You'll climb fourth 99. And welcome into the Ringerverse here on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin. Co-host of Binge mode, head of editorial here at The Ringer. It is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only to Camino, to join us on this podcast feed for Star Wars, for Marvel, and more, all things, nerd culture, and fandom. Joining me today, fresh off a fireside chat in the Anderon sector, it's Ringer staff writer, my fellow Saw Guerrera enthusiast, Ben, Ben, welcome into the ringerverse. Begun the bad batch has. I do voices.

I love it. Bringing the impressions right from the jump. Incredible. Oh, my God. Wow. What a delightful surprise. Can I just say I'm thrilled to be here discussing Star Wars with you. And Star Wars has been slagging a bit. And it's about time for the ringerverse to give Star Wars a little love. And nothing against the capes and spandex. I've been watching my Marvel stories like everyone else. Shout out to the Midnight Boys. But I prefer my superheroes and super soldiers with lightsabers and blasters. That's just the way I'm wired. Wow. Okay, well, listen, the ring reverse is, you know, it's young still, about a month and a half old. And yes, we have spent the bulk of our early weeks chatting about the MCU, specifically, of course, the Falcon and the Winter Soldier catch up on those pods if you haven't yet. But we named our podcast feed after the Spiderverse, after the Multiverse, for a reason.

We always planned to visit numerous fictional worlds and to chat about all sorts of of fantasy stories. And what better way really to begin our ringer-vers Star Wars journey than to say, may the fourth be with you to each other. It's Star Wars Day, Ben. It's Star Wars Day. To all those to celebrate. And we're going to be chatting about a new Star Wars story that debuted on Star Wars Day, the Bad Batch, of course, new Disney Plus show. We're going to be talking today specifically about the premiere aftermath, but also Bad Batch as a new show and a project more broadly, and we're also going to talk big picture about Star Wars spin-offs, where the bad batch fits in the timeline, what that might mean, etc.

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Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at vanduel.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. Before we dive in though, a couple quick reminders for everyone. The Midnight Boys, Van and Charles, dropped their instant reaction to the invincible season one finale last Friday. So check that out if you haven't. Pugh, Pugh.

And they will, of course, be back with you this Friday as well with the new. episode. Follow us. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Ringerverse. Join the Ringerverse Facebook group. You can chat about the pod. You can chat about the stories that we're talking about on the pod. And of course, follow the pod itself on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. One more reminder. Spoiler warning. Today's pod features plot details from the Bad Batch premiere aftermath, as well as details from across the Star Wars can that vast galaxy of Star Wars stories. Ben's probably going to mention the EU

and dip into Legends canon a couple times too. So proceed accordingly. I will dip deeply. I think you have to save lines like I will dip deeply for Ring ofverse After Dark, Ben. We'll get there. What did you actually think of the premiere, the mega-sized Bad Batch debut?

Did you like it? First impression? Positive. Quite positive. Yeah. Great place to start. Yeah. So I think there was a lot of pressure here. I mean, my level of hype for anything associated with Star Wars is set to high pretty permanently. So that's sort of the baseline expectation. Anything that says Star Wars, people are going to have high expectations. Anything that launches, big streaming launches on Disney Plus, the pedigree of the god Dave Faloni, who hasn't missed yet, put all of those things together. plus some skepticism about the premise of the bad batch. Fans wanted a sequel to Rebels more than they wanted to see these guys again. Did we need to see the Bad Batch so soon? And I think the answer is yes, at least so far. I'm pretty pleased.

Yeah, it's like the life is good, but it could be better of meme, right? Like, why not both? Why not all of the above? You know, I also really enjoyed the premiere. In fact, I thought it was excellent. We're going to get into some of our favorite canonical connections to other Star Wars stories later. I will just say right off the jump, though, you had watched the screener before me and you slacked me. You did not spoil anything, but you did say, you will cry.

And I said to you, Ben, it's not really saying much. I went way out on a limit with that. It tells me anything particular about what might await me. But the opening sequence, Order 66, and seeing Caleb, aka Canaan, one of my all-time favorite Star Wars characters of characters of the heart of rebels, which is maybe my favorite Star Wars story, period, I just dissolved into a puddle right away. And I think this will be a through line of our discussion today, actually. One of the challenges that Star Wars faces is that there is always simultaneously the desire to live in the moment of the places, the characters, the ideas, the moments in the canon that mean the most to people. Right. However, that's also where there's the highest likelihood of inciting some sort of, do we need to be?

X again response, right? I thought that the cross-canon connections in the Bad Batch premiere across the board worked exceptionally. And so that in particular was really exciting to me. And I think it's also emblematic. You mentioned Faloni, but of the brilliance, really, of the Faloni projects and the Faloniverse, is his ability consistently to understand what fans actually want more of

and how to revisit it, or crucially, actually, not revisit it, expand and enhance our understanding of something in a way that allows us to connect to that nostalgia and that thing we love, but also feels fresh, brings something new. I thought the Bad Batch premiere did that really well while also ushering in this, you know, new story and a familiar but also a new span of time.

I loved even just like the opening logo moment, you know, opening the choice to open with the Clone Wars logo and then have it disintegrate in flame and become the Bad Batch wordmark. That felt like a great way to simultaneously signal that connectivity, but also this is something new. And I just have to say, great branding. You know, the Bad Batch is a name. I love it. Yeah. The look and the tone and the feel sticks so close to Clone Wars, which as people who really like the Clone Wars, I think is right up our alley. So like the animation and the maturity,

that formula just picks up right where Clone Wars left off. So it feels familiar, but it introduces a different time period and perspective, which we will get into. And we'll also talk more about, as you said, kind of calibrating the character cameos and the crossovers, how much is too much,

how do you let your new core cast live and breathe? while also providing that fan service. But like you, I was thrilled by that unexpected Canaan slash Caleb cameo. That was wonderful. And look, it's not, you know, like Disney sent screeners for this, right? Which it doesn't do for The Mandalorian. And we're happy about that. I'm happy not to have to be a midnight boy or a 3 a.m. boy when I watched this series.

But, you know, I think people might be expecting something big with the premiere. And I think this delivered that, right? The 70-minute premiere, I think, was a smart move to make this feel like event TV. Now, Canaan and Caleb making a cameo here. It's not on par with Grogu showing up in the Mando season one premiere. What is? Or Boba Fett showing up in the season two premiere. Like, we're not playing on that level here.

And there aren't spoilers and surprises on par with those, like, unless you missed prior events and didn't know the clones killed the Jedi, that probably would have come as a shock. But I think they did a good job of making this feel like something special while also making it feel familiar and just welcoming us, the people who have spent so many hours and days of our lives in the Faloniverse. It's clear where we are here, but this is also something new.

Yeah, I mean, that choice to eventize and supersize the premiere is one more way to really anchor the bad batch experience in the familiarity of the Clone Wars experience. I think that what's interesting about that choice in particular, and again, I'll probably say this 50 times today, the Clone Wars, just the best. Love it. What a wonderful show.

Clone Wars and Rebels, two of my favorite pieces of Star Wars, storytelling, period. However, the Clone Wars began with a, a quite poor theatrical release, a movie that has a simply rancid 18% on rotten tomatoes, certainly not certified fresh. And that is a far, far, far cry from the eventual north of 90%, 92, 93% I think, mark that the television series has. And I think surely a far cry from what this premiere will yield.

So I thought that in some ways it was almost like a risk to mimic the Clone Wars formula in that sense, just because I think a lot of Star Wars fans, even Clone Wars enthusiasts, don't think back fondly to that movie. But here's why it was really smart. Not only what you already said, but the animated shows, which are wonderful. Have I mentioned that yet? A couple times. There's not always a full contained arc inside of one episode. often arcs cover three, four episodes.

You know, season seven of Clone Wars, the most recent iteration of the animated Philoniverse that we got was 12 total episodes, three, four episode arcs. So I think that it was smart to identify that whether it's because the Bad Batch are newer for Star Wars fans or just this entire experience

of the animated Star Wars world is something that people who are deciding whether or not this is for them are going to make a decision about after a few installments, you need to hook them right away. And they were able to cram an entire arc into this premiere that allows viewers to really familiarize themselves with who the Bad Batch are as characters,

what the vibe of this project is going to be. And also, it, I think, allowed for something like the Order 66 moment to not just feel like retreading familiar territory because the show was marketed clearly as post-Order 66, Rise of the Empire, the Bad Batcher on the run, Tarkin is in pursuit. I thought it was really cool that that wasn't where we started, though. And we got to see, not only a cool, actually, essential.

We got to see them make the choice, right? We got to see how each character processed what happened. But if that's all you start with, because that's Ark 1, episode 1, then you're not getting the new thing yet in front of new viewers. So I thought this was really smart overall. Yeah, when I said that the God Dave Loney never misses, I may have suppressed my memory of the original Clone Wars film,

but he got the growing pains out of his way. And this was like that served a similar purpose, but not terrible. And I think it gets us hyped for the series. It sets up a lot of the storylines. It introduces the characters. Now, if you're coming to this cold and you've never seen a Faloni show before, and you're expecting that every week will be like this, you may be in for a little letdown,

because it's not going to be. It's going to be 20-something minutes from here on out for however many episodes there are, which we still don't know for sure. But it sounds like at least 14 somewhere maybe between there and the standard 22 or so for Clone War seasons before the last couple. But I think this sort of hooked us, right? We're in now. And now I think we can go.

I mean, we were in before this. Of course, we were in. Probably a lot of people are in now. Other people are probably in. Yeah. So I think there's still a lot of questions that a premiere like this can't answer. And we'll get into some of that, some of the questions about what this will look like from week to week. But if you want to make a splash, if you want to be the trending topic, I think this was the way to go.

That actually segues nicely into the next thing I wanted to chat about, which is why people should be hyped about this, why Star Wars fans should be excited about the Bad Batch? And what's to sell for hardcore fans? And then what's to sell for... those people who may be on the fence, who like Star Wars, who always go to see a new Star Wars movie, probably who are watching The Mandalorian, right? But who are saying, oh, an animated Star Wars show, you know, I never watched the Clone Wars. Seems like there's a lot to catch up on there. I'm not sure this is for me.

Do I have enough of the backstory and the knowledge to be able to dive in? Would I like this? What's the sell from your perspective for each of those? groups. I think one basic cell that probably applies to both is just the argument from scarcity. This is the only Star Wars show in town right now. It doesn't seem like there's ever a shortage of Star Wars these days, but it's been almost five months since Mando's second season ended. That is like disorienting and destabilizing for me to hear. That doesn't feel real. We're not getting Book of BobaFat and maybe Mando's season three until at least

December. So we have a ways to go here. And everything else in the pipeline is slated for 2022 or still TBD. So there's going to be a deluge of Star Wars stuff, but it's not here yet. So if you're looking for a fix, this is it. This is what you have. And that's not a high bar to clear. But just saying, there aren't other Star Wars shows coming out that are competing for your time and attention. Though there is a lot of wonderful new High Republic storytelling out there. Yes, that is true. However, I will say that for hardcore fans, I mean, we can get into this at greater length, but this time period is pretty compelling. I mean, even if you are a hardcore fan who consumes Star Wars in all forms, you have not seen much of this era. The runway is really clear in front of the Bad Batch right now. Like this between the prequel trilogy and the original trilogy period, and there are some reasons for this. There are some challenges that are associated with this point in the timeline. But I think there's also a lot of potential, a lot of things we haven't seen. How does the empire consolidate its control? How do we transition from the clone army to the conscript army? How do clones transition into a post-war world? There are all kinds of questions here in addition to, you know, the Jedi Purge and people fleeing from Darth Vader and all of these juicy storylines that we love. There's just not a lot of

lot that covers this period. As far as TV and movies, this is wide open. I mean, you've got solo, which is set maybe, you know, 10 to 13 years prior to episode four. And then you've got Rebels, which is five years before. And you've got Andor and Kenobi coming up, which are five years, nine years, respectively before episode four. Well, Kenobi's really timeless and eternal in my heart at least. But yes. Ageless. Ages looks better with each passing year. It's true.

That means we've got six to nine years, something like that, that are just laid out in front of the bad batch that we just have not seen on screen. And that's pretty exciting because the timeline is pretty crowded these days. And this is one of the places that's kind of within the established period that hasn't been well chronicled. So I think there's a lot of potential there. I completely agree. The Thelonis fandom and love for the characters, the universe, the material, seeps into every second of the stories that he makes. What we saw from the Clone Wars, I think, is very likely to translate over here, too,

in terms of just core storytelling DNA. Now, that's a little different because, to your point, this is right after the period of time that we're familiar with from the prequels and the Clone Wars, right, after Order 66. is six and it's thus fresher, but still, it's this, like, familiar moment in the canon timeline. And the thing that I loved so much about the Clone Wars was that, on the one hand, you were able to flesh out the characters and the storylines in a period of time that was so essential, but didn't land fully in the prequel films, right? Now, I personally love Revenge of the Sith, but obviously, phantom-enicentic attack of the clones

leave a great deal to be desired. Yes. And to see Anakin in full. Like for me, Clone Wars Anakin is my Anakin. And I think a lot of Star Wars fans feel that way, right? To see his relationship with Obi-One. And to better understand a thing we already cared about. But then also to find that hybrid and that balance with new characters, new relationships.

Osoka, of course, being the best example, but also the clones, getting to learn fully about and invest in characters like Rex, for example. that was really a beautiful marriage of the familiar and the new. And I think Bad Batch can give us that same mix, that same mix of seeing faces. And we got a few of them in this premiere who we are quite well acquainted with already. I mean, it is interesting that I think we've already talked more about other characters and not the core Bad Batch in the first 20 minutes of the pod. But there's time, there's time to get us to invest in them as. as fully as we are already invested in,

not personally a fond of Tarkin, but we're like, hey, that's Tarkin, right? Wow, cool. And not CGI Tarkin either. Animated Tarkin. Exactly. But I do think that's the other thing that's worth talking about here for a second in terms of why to opt in. The Bad Batch are a pretty compelling set of characters.

I think that the idea behind their creation is very thematically rich, part of what was so cool about the Clone Wars as a show is that it allowed us to get to know who the clones were. They're not actually just the human equivalent of the B1 battle droids, this mindless army, this machine that's there to be deployed. There were people. And over the course of the Clone Wars show, you got to learn so much about so many of them and see their spirit, see their personalities, see the way they styled their hair, the names that they chose to give themselves, the relationship. the relationships that they forged with each other, you build on that with the bad batch, who are definitionally distinct. That's the premise of this group.

They have the desirable mutations, quote unquote, right? They are, and that makes them elite. You know, we learn in season seven that they have 100% success rate on missions. And as Nala Say tells Tarkin in the premiere, the fact that they are these, as she puts it defective clones. That's the kind of negative, hostile, demeaning language

that a lot of the characters use when they talk about the bad batch, those mutations enhance traits that turn them each into desirable soldiers. Now, that sounds very technical, and I think in many ways quite mean, like quite rude. And that is, of course, one of the tricks is that when you hear as a viewer of the characters

in the universe talking about them that way, you can't help but root for them. Like, you know that it is wrong that people would say that they are defective because they are different. And that, in fact, one of the points of this story is to applaud and celebrate the differences in the bad batch and in all of us, right?

So I love that part of it. And I'm excited to spend more time with each of those characters and to continue to invest in them, not only as a unit and a group and a part of this larger tapestry, but as individuals. Yeah.

And, you know, tech, I think, says that they're more deviant than defective, which doesn't sound that much better, honestly, but you know what he means. These are advantageous mutations. And just to piggyback on your point, you know, Faloni is the link to George Lucas, right? He is the figure who spans the pre-and-post-Disney era of Star Wars,

who knits together the different trilogies and time periods. And this series is a George Lucas idea, right? George Lucas conceived the Bad Batch. He envisioned it as the Dirtyy Dirty. dozen meet Star Wars. This is, you know, the A team basically with Blasters. And I think if you're just joining now, that's not a bad place to be. You know, we all like stories like that. Put a team together. They all have different specialized skills. The whole is more than the sum of the parts, you know. So I think that's a pretty good pitch as just an entry-level elevator idea. But also,

you know, Faloni, not only is he the link to Lucas, but he's a walking Wikipedia page, right? He He has a lore Bible in his head, and he really seems to understand what makes Star Wars stories work. And yes, on some level, Disney is pumping out these shows to feed the insatiable streaming beast to drive subscriptions to please investors. But Flonie also has stories to tell here. There are characters to care about it. It doesn't feel like a soulless exercise. And I think we care because it would take more than twice as long to watch. the Clone Wars as it would to marathon every Star Wars movie, All 11, queue them up.

It takes way longer to watch the Clone Wars. And that's just one of Faloni's series. So I don't say that to dissuade anyone from diving in because it's worth the investment. But I just mean that in a very real way, Faloni's work makes up most of the Star Wars that's ever been on screen. And it spans multiple eras. And it brings all these characters and threads together. And so for people like us who have taken these journeys with him and with these characters, it's very meaningful to see them here or to follow what happens after the parts of those stories we've seen.

And again, I don't mean that you have to have taken those journeys. And we can give a couple quick recommendations for what you should watch or what it would be beneficial to immerse yourself in before you watch the bad batch or as you watch the bad batch. I know you have a few wrecks. I have some too, but you could just come in cold here. I mean, you know, probably watch the prequels. If you haven't watched the prequels and you're listening to a Bad Patch pod, thank you for your loyalty. But I would say that you can start here. You know, if you want to start fresh, you don't need the seven seasons of backstory.

All the characters are introduced. You get their names. You get their skills. You get the brief primer on the state of the galaxy and what the stakes are here. So you can just jump in. It's better if you know everything that came before. And there's some specific things that I think it would be good to check out before you dive in here. But don't be scared, as I'm saying, you don't have to have seen everything before you watch the bad batch.

Ben, I love that point you just made about how Filoni is responsible for actually the bulk of Star Wars. It's amazing to think about it that way. And I knew you would have like a data point or two like that. And it reminds me that I wanted to ask you, if we were soldiers, and we will get back to the recommendations for what to watch in a few seconds, I promise, if we were soldiers in the clone army, we had our numbers, but we wanted to show who we were as people. What name would you give yourself? Because I had been thinking, what name would I recommend for Ben? And I thought, Sabre, you know, for Sabre metrics. And you're a love of a data point.

I like it. You can't give yourself a nickname, right? It has to be bestowed on you by a colleague. So I'll take it. Sabre works for me. Who should I be? I was going to, I think Steve would probably say I had to be like sniff or sniffles, you know, peak allergy season.

That's where my head was going. That's where my head was going. To blow my nose and just snort and just make the edit an absolute nightmare for Steve. Plus the tears of emotion. That is well. Yes, that is well. One more thing that I wanted to piggyback off that you just said before, before we move forward into the recommendations for.

the viewing guy catch up. You mentioned George envisioning the bad batch as like the dirty dozen with blasters. What I think is so interesting about that in terms of how we can contextualize and frame the bad batch within the larger set of clones is that, you know, if you go back through old interviews, the way that George spoke about the clones in general and the reason that he was interested in focusing on them in the clone war. this band of brothers. I love thinking about it that way,

because the bad batch, you know, you'd think of the cafeteria seen in the premiere, for example. Oh, the sad batch. They're outcasts among and inside of this band of brothers. But because of that, it then makes their unit, their band,

all the more tightly knit, and it makes characters like, Echo, who I think we will surely get to in a few minutes when we're recommending episodes to catch up on in terms of really appreciating and understanding his history and his arc. And Omega, who we meet here in this premiere, deal a kinship to them and more at home with the Bad Batch with Clone Force 99 than in these other aspects and areas of the Army or galactic life. Like I think of a moment like the one in Clone War season seven, the opening four episodes are devoted to the Bad Batch arc. And Rex says of echo in that episode. And they took away his freedom, his humanity.

They tried to turn him into a machine. And I think that that overall is why the bad batch and the clones more broadly, who we learn about as individuals, are so compelling and are worth getting excited about and investing in because they're not. machines. They're human beings and their individuals. And when they embrace that and see where it leads them and follow that individuality and that spark of choice, which we hear come up often in this premiere, I think particularly in conversations between Hunter and Crosshair, which we'll talk about a bit more later, it's actually quite moving and meaningful and inside of like an action-packed

adventure show. I think that's really cool. And then something like, again, like echo choosing to be with them. They choose to welcome him. That happens in season seven. They're a family. And Ben, few things I love more than that family you choose idea that I've probably talked about 5,000 times with Jason on binge mode. I love that.

And that is the germ of this. That is the heart of this. And you might think that sounds counterintuitive because they are like definitionally placed together by other people. But with this show, this group, it's no longer in order. It's no longer directive. Sorry, crosshair. Like, the bad batch, Hunter, tech, wrecker, Echo, and Omega, they decide to get onto the shuttle at the end.

They decide to make their escape. They decide to pursue the course that is right for them. And I love that. And I can't wait to see where this goes. They were ostracized in the earlier era, right? They didn't really fit, even though people called them in for support. but they kind of kept to themselves. In this world, they are perfectly positioned to take advantage here

and to see through the things that the other clones, the regs, can't because of their inhibitor chips, because of their programming. The side effects of these genetic mutations, in addition to the advantageous combat abilities, is that they don't follow orders all the time. And sometimes that can backfire. But in this case, it arms them for this world. better than any weapon could because they are the ones who have the ability to perceive what is actually happening here.

And I would say that I'm slightly less likely to weep while watching TV than you are, slightly. But Order 60 sticks still makes me emotional. No matter how many times I have watched it and played it and read it in various forms. It's devastating. It is. You know, I don't know if it's because we're prequel kids. we grew up with those movies, and despite their flaws, they're branded on our brains. But whenever I see an Order 66 scene, I'm sort of a wreck.

And I think a lot of that comes from watching the Clone Wars, because when you've spent so much time with those characters, you understand how gut-wrenching it would be, not just for the Jedi to have the clones turn on them. But for the clones themselves. Exactly. To lose that sense of self. To lose their agency, to betray their comrades, to do something they would never do. of their own volition. It's like Hunter says to crosshair in the premiere, have you lost your mind?

And yes, that is exactly what has happened. And that's devastating. Exactly. You spend so much time in the coloners investing in who they are. And to see that torn away from them is absolutely heart-wrenching. This episode is brought to by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and make it a mess. You don't need weather tech floor liners in the summer,

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That's a good segue way because the inhibitor chip is, I think, at the heart of a few of the recommendations we're going to make. So this would be, I think, frankly, we could just do a podcast on this, you know, what to watch to catch up and be ready for the bad batch. You already mentioned the prequel films, of course. That's a given. We've mentioned the Philoniverse a lot. I would recommend just for the pleasure of enjoying it, watching all of the Clone Wars and all of rebels.

Watch Mando if you haven't. They're just so great. But in terms of the essentials, the episodes and the arcs, the moments across the canon that will really help you orient with the bad batch and where we are right now. I think there are a few that are worth discovering if you're not going to watch all of the Clone Wars,

or maybe not right now, I think the place we have to start is the Bad Batch Arch, the Bad Batch introductory arc from season 7. That's episodes 1 through 4, The Bad Batch, a Distineco, on the wings of Caridax and on the finish business.

Now, I think what's interesting is that technically, you mentioned this already, you don't need this in the sense that they do such a good job of introducing the bad bad bad. characters in this premiere, making sure you understand what their skills are, what their abilities are, what their dynamic with each other is. But it's a good arc fun to watch.

Specifically, though, I think even more than what that teaches you about, Clone Force 99, their expert skill, their success rate in missions, how they all behave on the battlefield, how they interact with each other. Really, I think essential to watch for Echo because of, of all of his history with Rex, Captain Rex, one of the main characters in the Clone Wars character we're going to be seeing in this show again, a character who returns in rebels. When Rex realizes that Echo,

who had been presumed dead, might be alive, he does absolutely everything that he can to try to find him because, again, the bonds that they form together are so central to the story, the choices that, the choice that Echo makes to join the bad batch, instead of returning to his old life with Rex as an archtrooper in the 500 first because he has been turned into, in essence, like a cyborg.

We hear in the premiere here, you know, more machine than man, that fucker watt tambour and the separatists basically discover Echo near death and turn him into a tool, data points, a source of this, in essence, and they call it an algorithm, that allows them to predict

the Clone Army's behavior. And it's just like devastating, but then really, really beautiful to see him realize that the Bad Batch that's where he belongs, even though he does not have one of the mutations,

he's different. He feels apart from the rest of his brothers and because of that, he feels at home with them. So I would definitely recommend that arc. And I would say

if you want to go back a bit further and dive deeper into the backstory of Echo, you could rewind to Clone War Season 3. And there are four more episodes in that season that would help set up Echo's backstory. The first two episodes of that

season introduce, or I guess it's not his first appearance, but really fleshes out who Echo is, who his comrades are. It gives you a little look at clone training and also at the namesake of Clone Force 99, which is... God-wrenching stuff, Ben. The name of the bad batch is named after 99, a bad batcher himself who is assigned to maintenance duty and is just sort of supporting his brothers and is called upon to go above and beyond. I won't say more than that. But if you want to know about him, the clone who inspired this force's name and also echo, then those first two episodes are good to check out. And episodes 18 and 19 in season three, just to go a bit further, those sort of set up how Echo gets captured, how he becomes a tool of the separatists when we meet him in the seventh season of the Clone Wars.

How did he get to that point? And it's actually referenced in the premiere of the Bad Match, the Citadel incident that Tarkin was involved in. That is covered in those two episodes. And I don't know if you have more Clone Wars episodes you want to shout out. I was just going to say that if you want to dive into other media. set during this time period to just sort of immerse yourself in the milieu of the between trilogies here. Again, there's not a lot out there, but the Star Wars Canaan comics that came out a few years ago.

Yes, that's on my list too. Yes. So that will give you a little look at what Canaan's been up to, the Dark Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith comics, which are just generally great, but also take place during this time period. There was an Asoka, YA novel that came out a few years ago. On my list as well, Ben. We're so in sync. It takes place right at the same time, so you get some sense of what's going on in Asoka's life.

And although it's a little later in the timeline, the Tarkin novel by James Lucino, that tells you a little bit about Tarkin's backstory. If you want to know more about an extremely unpleasant person. And my last wreck, I just want to shout out Republic Commando, one of the greatest of all Star Wars games, which was recently released on Switch and PS4. It's out there if you want it. And if you want to know what it would be like to be in the bad batch, that's about as good a simulation as you're going to get. You kind of command a clone unit that has different specialized skills. You can send them to do these various things. It's a great game.

And it also sort of humanizes the clones and came out at this pivotal period right around the time that the Clone Wars series started. So I would recommend that game as well. Awesome. A couple more quick ones. Rookies, season one, episode five of Clone Wars, that actually is when we. first meet Echo and fives. And when Rex, crucially, meets Echo, welcomes him into the 5001st.

I would recommend, even though this episode, well, it does feature Rex, but it doesn't feature the Bad Batch characters. I think it's interesting thematically. And in terms of what it is interested in in exploring the deserer, Clone Wars, season two, episode 10, a key episode in terms of a clone pursuing a, deciding to pursue a different path.

I also would recommend the Hidden Enemy, Season 1, episode 16, more focused there on clone individuality, breaking away from the pack this time in the form of a treacherous act. I won't spoil the specifics. The Inhibitor Chip arc from season 5, episodes 1 through 4, the unknown conspiracy, fugitive, and orders. Phenomenal episodes, one of my favorite Clone Wars arcs overall. Huge for Rex, huge for fives. A. Z. We get in this premiere hanging out with Omega in the Medical Bay.

AZ is in that arc in season five. He's pals with fives. That is just a heart-wrenching sequence, but really also, I think, essential canon in terms of some of the clones learning truth about the inhibitor chips and what might be inside of them. I would also recommend the final arc of Clone Wars,

season seven, episodes 8 through 12, which are just masterful. frankly perfect. Yeah, just absolutely gorgeous. So watch them just to treat yourself. But I think it's important to see the end of Clone Wars as a bridge into this story. There is some just agonizing

Asoka Rex inhibitor chip storytelling in there. You know, I'd also, I guess, because Saw was in the premiere here, I'd recommend catching up on Saugarer's arc. He's got a couple arcs in Clone Wars and Rebels. He's in Clone War season five episodes two through five, that's when we get to see it. And it's referenced, actually, in the Bad Batch Premier, Anakin and Rex train saw and Sela, his sister, to be fighters in the Republic

Army. I would recommend his rebels appearances, which are really something. He's got a few of them. The season three arc, Ghost of Geonosis, Part 1 and 2, that's episodes 12 and 13, definitely worth watch. Similarly, in season 4, episodes 3 and 4 of Rebels in the name of the Rebels. Rebellion Parts 1 and 2. That's a treat. There aren't enough Star Wars characters who aren't totally aligned with one side and don't fit neatly into a good guy box or a bad guy box. And Saw is sort of, you know, the gray Jedi of insurgents of freedom fighters. And also, I know you're with me on this. Young Saw is a stone cold fox. I would follow him anywhere.

Gorgeous. Those eyes. He's like, look, I'm putting together a team to take on the empire So far, I have three troops, two kids and one grandma. I saw you got two more right here. Mal and Ben. I would stare into those eyes and say sign me up. Amazing. I'd say also, who knows how big of a role Fenwick will play, but Fenwick is in the bad batch trailer, so we know Fenwick will be in this show.

Catch up on Fenwick's Mando stories. That's obviously way further in the future of the timeline, you know, nearly three decades later. watch chapter 5 of the gunslinger and chapters 14 through 16 in the tragedy, the believer in the rescue to familiarize yourself with Fennec later in the timeline because we're going to see Fennick again. And you already mentioned Asoka and Canaan. Those are great picks on the novel and comics side. Before we dive further into the episode quickly,

a couple more things we want to hit on. The ongoing role of spinoffs and the prequel time period in Star Wars storytelling, you know, en masse. How do you see this show functioning in that respect, both as a story in a vacuum in its own right, and part of the Disney Plus era of Star Wars storytelling and the post-sequel trilogy era of Star Wars storytelling where there's a lot on the horizon,

a lot of new projects were announced at Disney Investor Day, but as you noted earlier, a few months away for many of them. And there is this appetite on the heels of Mando to just keep riding the wave of Disney Plus possibility. What opportunity does this spin-off on the heels of the prequel era afford? Do you see any risks setting the story here or even continuing to spin off?

Because this is a spinoff of a spinoff, right? The Clone Wars is a spinoff of the prequel films. The Bad Batch is a spinoff of the Clone Wars. So there's the saturation question always. Do you have any concerns about that here? Yeah, I mean, I think Mando season two sort of brought balance to the franchise, you know, after all the Reddit flame warring and review bombing and Twitter trolling. And it did that while tying together threads from multiple eras and planting the seeds for several spin-offs. And it's truly an impressive feat of storytelling and fan service and corporate overlord pleasing.

which is why we are venerating Dave Floney the way that we are on this episode. But in case you haven't noticed, Disney has mostly been backing away from the gaping wound that is the divisive sequel series time period. You know, people are still circulating petitions about let's remake the sequel series. It's not going to happen, folks. But for now, at least they've kind of cordoned off that whole portion of the timeline and are just like, you know what, let's leave that alone. Let's see what the half-life is.

Let's let the radioactivity decay a little bit. And we'll tell some other stories that people may not be as mad about. But I think there are some risks here. And just to zoom out for a second, you know, I think this is kind of a larger concern as everyone seeks to expand universes. And, you know, Marvel sort of exists in this perpetual present. It's always moving forward and reanimating or recasting characters and with other properties that people are trying to build up like thrones, like the Lord of the Rings, often the only way or the easiest way to expand maybe backward. And that's a challenge.

It's tough to make a prequel as compelling as the original because on some level you know what's going to happen. It's hard to make the suspense and the stakes as high. generally when you tell a story, you start at the most exciting part. And then it turns out, hey, people like this story. We better make more of this story. We have to rewind now. We have to start at a point that probably isn't as exciting as the original starting point, or we would have started there in the first place.

So Star Wars has experienced this, right? Star Wars has had its own prequel problems. And in theory, it has the freedom to expand in both directions, but because of the discourse around the Last Jedi and the Rise of, Skywalker, they're sort of leaving that alone for now. And that means that we're in prequel territory. And to make matters more difficult, I think the spinoff is arriving at a far different time for fandom and for the franchise than the Clone Wars did. You know, the Bad Batch isn't really built to feed the nonstop social media rumor mill that surround Star Wars today. It doesn't

seem intended to tee up a big blockbuster or spark speculation about what does this mean for the future of the franchise every Friday. It's a little lower key than that. And I think as much potential as there is in this time period because of the things that we haven't seen on screen, there are also some concerns, like the fact that one reason why this period may have been left alone to this point is that it's a dark time. You know, if the empire strikes back is a dark time for the rebellion, how dark is the time before there is a rebellion? No one is really rebelling here. The empire is just firmly in control and we're years away from the origins of the alliance. And so you have to ask, where does the hope come from? You know, how are we going to get invested in goals? And, you know,

I talked to Jennifer Corbett and Brad Rowe, the head writer and supervising director of the series last week. And they said, well, maybe the hope can come in smaller quantities. You know, it doesn't have to be blowing up the Death Star. It doesn't have to be changing the balance. of power in the galaxy. But that is generally the signature story of Star Wars. It's always about good versus evil. It's always about empire versus repelion, et cetera, or some variation of that, maybe some very derivative variation of that. And so what is Star Wars if it's not that? If it's not the galaxy-wide conflict, if it's, hey, the light at the tunnel is a long way away, then how do you keep people watching from week to week? What are the goals? What are the

victory conditions. And that's something that fascinates me the most about this series. That sounds great to me, right? A story where it's not always just about the central battle, the central figures, the bold-faced names you already know, and the flashing lights on the marquee. Because I think about us a lot with Star Wars. The galaxy is really big, vast, And there are a lot of people and a lot of stories inside of it. And that's one of the things I love most about Star Wars and stories like this, the chance to explore something just out of view from, again, stories that we love and adore.

Like I don't say that in any way to diminish a new hope. One of the most important pieces of pop culture, the history of the world, and certainly in my life. But one of the reasons that I love rebels is because even though it builds to the same moments, it was all new. You know, you know you love droids, but you hadn't met Chopper. You know to get excited about a hero's journey,

a Jedi, a Paduan, and a master, but you hadn't met Ezra and Canaan. There are ways to apply that template and those familiar archetypes. And I mean, frankly, so many of the archetypes across pop culture stem from Star Wars, from the original films and still give us something that feels specific to this moment in time and these little nooks and crannies of the galaxy.

So I can't wait for that. I really can't. And, you know, the question of why are we moving from well-trained, compliant clones to incompetent? This is a big thing for you. This bugs you. Yeah, free-thinking conscripted soldiers. We know that this is the case, but how and why, right? And I think that the show has to explain that.

And in aftermath, you know, Tarkin implies that it's a budgetary issue, you know, and I'm, I'm sure it's expensive to maintain order on millions of worlds. But it also seems kind of nice if you're an evil empire to have soldiers who will unquestionably obey your orders, even if it involves betraying their closest comrades. So, you know, I think they have to explain and they intend to explain, based on my conversations with the creative team, how and why exactly. that transition happens? You know, is it just that the clones age out and we don't make a new batch? And if not, why? So I think that's interesting, you know, I think that seeing the different reactions to the advent of the empire,

you know, not everyone is suspicious of this, even if they're not brainwashed, right? And I just, I mean, imagine the Mandalorian, right? Even in the Mandalorian, which takes place in the aftermath of the empire's collapse, there are people lamenting the lack of order. I mean, most of those people are ex-imperials with German accents, but not all of them. So bring back Warner Herzog, animate the client. Imagine your planet was just a war zone and suddenly you turn on the Holonet news and someone says, hey, the fighting is over. You're safe now. And you don't know that that someone is a Sith Lord or what a Sith Lord is.

To you, he's just the guy who survived an assassination attempt from those treacherous Jedi. and won the war. So at first, maybe you're happy about this. So I think there are a lot of things that they can play with and show us in detail here. And also, really, if it's not going to be about turning the tide in some galactic conflict, it has to be about the bonds between these characters and these relationships. And if that's done well, I think that can carry the show. And we don't have to look far for a precedent for that, right?

Just look back to Mando. Just look to our best friends and the buddy cop comedy and the rom-com that is Dyn Jarn and Grogu. And maybe that can be what the bad batch and Omega is if all goes well. And, you know, Star Wars, I think, has a parenting problem. I'm honestly not sure if Omega would be better off with Tarkin and the Caminoans or with a squad of commandos. Come on. You don't mean that. No one's better with Tarkin.

Have they ever talked to a girl? I'm an only child, and I went to an all-boys grammar school and an all-boys high school. So I'm speaking from experience here. Freshman year of college was a learning experience for me in more ways than one. And at least Mando had parents himself. He knew what parenting looked like, even though those parents were brutally murdered. I guess the advantage the Bad Batch has is that they can take out their helmets, so that helps. and they can share the responsibilities, right?

And Omega's a little older and maybe a little less mischievous and seems like she can take care of herself. But if they grow close and there's a lot we don't know about Omega, that's one of the big questions still surrounding the show. But the bond between these characters who sort of discover a new form of affection for each other and a new way of relating to people, you know, wars not make one great, as a wise master once said. to what does make you great in the post-clone wars world. They have to discover that together. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 US-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business.

So visit spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. This episode is brought to you by Borris Head. What if we told you the taste of deep fried turkey is now available at your local deli? Well, Borershead just did that. Bursting with flavor, perfectly seasoned with that indulgent taste that usually means pointing your whole day around it.

Presenting the friars turkey breast only from Borershead. The backyard tradition now available behind the counter. Visit your local deli today. discover the craftsmanship behind every bite, Boar's Head, committed to craft since 1905. All right. Let's chat about the episode itself. And let's talk about our favorite canonical connections,

because as we've mentioned already today, we saw some familiar faces. Sometimes it was a source of horror and dread. Sometimes it was a source of great jubilation. So let's run through our five faces. favorites. And I think there's only one place to start. Caleb. Has to be Caleb. Caleb Dume himself voiced by Freddie Prince. Does not sound like a 14-year-old Padawan, but I still am fine with it. I'm still okay with it. It's a little jarring that 45-year-old Freddie is voicing 14-year-old

Caleb. The voice doesn't quite match the face. It's like listening to the E-Trade baby. But congrats to Freddie, though. I'm putting together. one of the world's most interesting IMDB pages. I mean, from rom-com team movie icon to the Iron Bull and Dragon Age to Canaan and Rebels and Bad Badge, just an incredible career arc. Double feature of Summer Catch and Jedi Knight, who says no. I say yes to both. I mean, this really was just to reiterate a Titanic moment for rebels and Canaan fans. And the fact that it was right from the jump, you know, we open on collar, we see Jedi Master Deppabalaba. And when she announces that her Padawan has gone for reinforcements,

it is about to enter the fray and then calls him Caleb. And of course, we know as soon as she's introduced, because we know who her Padawana was. I was just like quivering, like a leaf in the wind, overwhelmed, stunned, grateful. I mean, this is. such, obviously Order 66 is seismic across Star Wars, but this is such a key moment in Canaan's arc, in Rebels, his remorse and lingering regret

over leaving his master in that moment, even though she told him to and even though we see, he would have perished shortly if he didn't, but also continuing to flesh out something like his hatred for the clones, which defines much of his early Rebels arc when,

and Rex and Wolf and Greger come back into the picture. You mentioned the Canaan comics, and this is explored in those comics. So it's not like... Differes slightly, I think, in some of the details, but I'm okay with bending the canon. Including just establishing this history

between Canon and the Bad Bash. Yes. Right? But also it's like, on the one hand, yes, if you really are invested in Canaan and his history, you probably saw that, but not only are you expanding it, updating it, it's brought to the screen,

and it's just thrilling to see it brought to the screen in this way. And I think, you know, it was surreal in some respects to see, not only to see Caleb working with the clones in this way, which, of course, we understood that he would have. But I think to see the reverence, like he thought the bad batch were so cool. He couldn't wait. to work with them and talk them up and run off with them for a new adventure.

And that, I think, is emblematic, again, of simultaneously connecting to and flushing out a huge part of a character's canon, while also flowing seamlessly and incorporating wholly into this new aspect of the story. He's so beloved as a figure. This is one of the things that is interesting to me about it, that seeing Hunter try to help him makes us root for and believe in Hunter right away. It's like an instant cheat code.

It's like a skeleton key moment. And I think what's really impressive about it is that that's true, even if you don't have history with Canaan as a viewer, like even if you hear the name Caleb and you don't shout, oh my God, it's Canaan Jaris, because you still see Hunter trying to help a Paduan, trying to help a Jedi.

And there's that agonizing visual after Caleb jumps across of them standing on opposite sides of the ravine and the highly symbolic nature of that shot and these dividing points in the canon. I just thought was really, really, really well done, emotionally impactful and high energy to start the show. I did want to ask you something, though,

because I think sometimes that I am so inside, of my own head and heart and fandom with this stuff that I struggle a little bit to think about how people who are not me might perceive a moment like this, right? Right. So I wanted to ask you about the comp

between this and a lot of the things that happened in season two of the Mandalorian, whether it was Asoka entering the story, Bocah, entering the story, hearing Grand Admiral Throne's name said aloud, thrilling for Clone Wars fans, thrilling for rebels fans, do those moments work if you don't have an existing connection to those characters or know who they are?

I actually think that those moments do work as well, even if you don't have that history. And to me, that's what's so impressive about it. They can function in these different lanes. What do you think about that, though? Is Star Wars becoming too insular to build on these moments for people who have this history with the characters, or is this accessible enough? Yeah, I'm sympathetic to that concern because I don't want to be a gatekeeper here.

I don't want anyone not to be able to enjoy a new Star Wars series unless they've watched all the old Star Wars series, even if they think they should and that they would enjoy it. I would like people just to be able to jump in. So I don't think these moments work as well. I mean, you're not going to get the resonance that we might get just from that flicker of recognition of who this...

If you haven't heard a loth wolf say, right. I mean, I think in this case, it's Order 66. We have a Padawan. His master is getting killed. He's fleeing for his life. His allies are turning on him. A lot of familiar markers.

Yeah, that moment works. Even if you don't realize that this is someone special, it's just Jedi Padawan A. You know, no one knows who it is. I think if that's the way that you receive this, fine. I think the moment still mostly works. I think there are some cases in Mando. where you shout out Grand Emerald Thron and it's not really followed up on. And I think if you know, you know and if you don't know, then I think that just goes over your head

and you don't really notice. Maybe you have some sense that you're missing something. And that can be frustrating, right? Because I know that from watching things that I'm not as familiar with the mythology and lore as I am with Star Wars. And I know that I'm missing something. but if I can still follow the story, if I don't feel like this is only for a certain subset of viewers, if it's not so distracting, then I think it's okay.

And there are things, you know, in the original trilogy, there are little tossed off lines and references that at the time weren't references to anything. And they make the universe seem larger, right? And then, of course, they all spawn, you know, a dozen EU books and cards and inevitably. but sometimes those references can just make these worlds seem big because there are things that you don't see on the screen and there's a sense that there's more here lurking just outside the frame. That's a great point. Life carries on beyond just the 20 minutes or so

that we're treated to at a time here. Yes. Number two on our list here of favorite canonical connections. Again, Order 66. Can't get enough. No. I am genuinely impressed by Star Wars' ability to consistently find a way to shock and thrill by returning to Order 66. Like when we saw it at the end of season 7 of Clone Wars and watched that through the mall, Rex, Asoka lens in particular, I was riveted.

And I felt that way and knew here. and I wonder if I'll ever stop feeling that way. There's just so much at stake in this moment for so many beloved characters that I just always appreciate getting to see it from a slightly different vantage point, a slightly different perspective, learning how it impacted new people

or in new ways, how everybody responded and continuing to, you know, to your point from earlier about like the, what's the end point before the next bit of canon starts? We knew from Rebels, for example, that Rex had removed his inhibitor chip. But it wasn't until season seven of Clone Wars, which came after that reveal in Rebels, that we learned how that actually happened.

And all of these reveals build on each other. And one day, there will be somebody who watches all of this in the canonical order and experiences it all in full. But for us, living through it in real time, every new release and new download is a new little pearl and for something as consequential in the universe as Order 66 is, I just always find myself like a jaw on the floor, always. Yeah, I've experienced this in so many media, I guess, most recently with our boy Cal Kestis in Jedi Fallen Order, right? Not quite as attached to Cal as I am to Canaan, but yes, there's something about this moment. And the way that I think, A, there's a sense

of suspense, like you know it's coming if you're familiar with the timeline here. Fortunately, they didn't make us wait too long for that. You hear that transmission sound. You get the tip off from tech because he says, oh, I think the war might be over, you know? Sounds like our boy, old Ben. I wonder if he means old Ben Kenobi, Dick Carragivus. And you're like primed right away. And then when you hear the sound of the transmission, you hear Palpatine's voice.

Chills. Shills. You know it's coming. That hammer is going to fall. I think the other thing that's worth quickly talking about here for a moment that is actually central to the plot of this episode, not just the order 66 of it all, is crosshair. Tough episode for our guy. Crosshair. Very, very tough. Is the member of the bad batch who wants to comply, who wants to execute the order who wants to execute the order who wants to execute Caleb. reveals stitched together over the course of the episode, but broadly this is how it goes. Hunter, tech, wrecker, and echo do not spring into action to execute the order.

The group's unique traits, their disobedience, their nonconformity has largely left them immune. One of the things that that fosters is an astounding and surreal moment where they have a rational conversation about what Order 66 is and what is happening. I thought this was fascinating to see characters actually discuss and try to process and understand what was unfolding around them. And then when they're back on Camino

and Hunter and Echo in particular are really appalled by what they're witnessing. Tech says it's been well documented that the scientists and doctors on Camino inhibited, he says, quote, inhibited the cognitive function of clones to engineer them to follow orders without question. And then when record,

says that they don't follow orders without question. Again, the reveals is really kind of organically, and our understanding organically builds throughout the episode. Text says, well, obviously, we are different. They manipulated pre-existing aberrations in our DNA, resulting in your brute strength, cross-air sharpshooting skills. Hunters enhanced senses in my exceptional mind, my guess is we are immune to the effects of the programming.

A handy little moment like that where the origin stories for each of their skill, sets also serves as crucial exposition for why they are not falling victim, falling prey to Order 66, the way that everyone else is. For Echo, it's what he suffered through on Skackle Minor. When Crosshair goes to the medical bay, and now, let's say, updates Tarkin, we get this exchange, quote, CT-9994's genetic mutations have altered much of his cranial activity, including his inhibitor chip.

Tarkin says, yet he exhibited loyalty to the empire during their mission. While the chip is not as active as a standard clones, the order does appear to be working, she says. Tarkin then asks, can she intensify the program?

She says, yes, they do it, and we see that that leads to crosshairs. Ultimate heel turn, though I don't even know if it's fair to say that because he was pointing in that direction. Anyway, very sad to see him separate from the group and fully turn on and fight his brothers.

I think this begs an interesting question, though, that I wanted to throw your way. Does this mean that the rest of the Bad Batch also has a working order on an active chip, albeit one that is even less active clearly than crosshairs because they were not in the same, well, why are we not killing everyone place

the crosshair was before the boosting of the chip signal? Or does the fact that he wanted to follow the order initially, good soldiers follow orders, and they didn't mean that their chips are completely non-functional, completely dead? Could someone in the future find a way to boost the rest of the bad batches chips, just like we're seeing them boost crosshairs here? Could they be vulnerable in the future to manipulation and control

unless they actually fully remove their chips, or do we think they're okay? My impression was that their chips are not active, but presumably they're in place, and perhaps they could be activated under the right circumstances. My sense is that it doesn't seem like, yeah, operate as soon as possible. But I don't get the sense that crosshair is typically a rule follower. Don't really get that vibe from him from his previous appearance. Despite him saying good soldiers follow order, 700 times in this premiere? Right. That seemed like a bit of brainwashing. So the fact that this was

acting on him at all seemed to be a manifestation of the chips activity that didn't seem to be active in the others. But what was interesting to me is I was really curious about how they would handle the defection because there are many ways they could have gone about this. And there's some precedent in earlier Star Wars stories for people who serve the empire, fight for the empire. And then gradually it dawns on them that, oh, wait, we're the bad guys. And then they kind of have the defection moment. And so I wondered whether that would happen right away or whether they would tease that out for a while, give us a glimpse of the inner workings of the empire and gradually have the bad batch come to this realization. And obviously, they pull the plug right away,

aside from crosshair. And I think that's consistent with their characters. These are anti-authority rebels, right? So it makes sense, I think. And I also think, you know, it's very common, especially I think in video games where it's like, we want to let you fly tie fighters, but we don't want to glorify fighting for the space Nazis. So we will make it clear to this character that they're fighting for the wrong side. And then eventually they jump ship and you kind of go through that conversion with them. In this case, they realize it right away, except for crosshair. And so that kind of takes that arc out of play, except that for crosshair, maybe it remains in play. Like, you have to figure that part of this season is just going to be

the brother-on-brother crosshair hunting down Hunter. Hunter becomes the hunted sort of storyline. But if at some point, they're able to disable the chip and bring crosshair over to the white side, then I think that's still manageable. I mean, as unsympathetic, a character as he was in this premiere, if you disable the chip, the moral slate is sort of wiped clean because I think everyone understands, like, he's not acting of his own free will here.

If there's one thing Star Wars loves, it's a redemption arc. Yes. I can't wait for cross-hares redemption arc. That's a really good point. And I think that hearing you say that, this was clearly the right decision because, you know, it's like,

if we're going to make a, Let's make a Marvel come for a second. I know you'd love to talk about Marvel. They're not Hydra. They didn't decide to sign up and work for Hydra, right? That's the Palpatine Tarkin group. It's the Winter Soldier, right? Winter Soldier, ready to comply, the words, the triggers, the brainwashing.

That's what the inhibitor chip is. And so the bad batch, without those words of programming, without the inhibitor chip, outside of crosshair, dictating there being. behavior, it would be a huge problem, actually, if they decided to fight for the empire, because just like their decision to break away is of their own volition, so would the decision to stay have been. And that would be a harder thing to work back from. Not impossible, certainly, but harder. So that gets us to number three on our list, though, the old dynamic duo. Tarkin and Palpi. I want to talk about Palpi for a second here. We got the,

The first galactic empire speech from Sith playing here to all of the clones, assembled, cheering. The Bad Batch are not impressed. In fact, they are quite alarmed by this display, aside from Crossair. Of course, who says- Cracking jokes about Palpatine's appearance. Harsh. Rucker is like, you look like shit, dude. There's that great exchange where Crosser says, you know, at his, the slick,

oily evil version of the clone voice. Republic Empire, what's the difference? And Texas, the systematic termination of the Jedi is a big one for me. Yeah. Seems significant. It's great to have the character's voice that out loud. But what I wanted to ask you about Palpi is, like, I found it delightful to get the snippet of the iconic speech and just see his scarred, looming visage, promising years and years.

I just shouldn't say I've had it delightful to promise destruction, but we know what's coming, right? And I was like, oh, man, palpi, wow, this is happening. We know what this means. We know what this foretells. I didn't feel any palpatine fatigue. And to me, that was because this is revisiting a moment where palpatine is absolutely elemental to everything that happens and not inserting him and introducing him into a part

of the story where he doesn't need to be. strikes me as a pretty core distinction. I was wondering if you agreed. Yeah, strongly agree. He has not yet been killed at the cathartic climax of a cherished trilogy, only to be brought back with almost no explanation in the third movie of a trilogy that takes place decades later. So no one has to say somehow Palpatine returned here, right? Because he hasn't gone anywhere yet. So it makes sense for him to be here. He is appropriately sinister. Not a great public speaking presence, even if you're not aware of the Siss Lord thing, like not really the most persuasive public speaker. But as I said before,

know your audience. It worked for this crowd. And the war, people will forgive a lot of sinisterness. It's true. It's true. And then Tarkin, we've covered most of the Tarkin stuff today, you already raised your question about why he's so eager to switch from the clone army to conscripted soldiers. You know, one thing that we do know from earlier in the canon from Clone Wars is that Camino's out of Django's DNA after he is killed in attack of the clones. And we hear in Clone Wars episode that, that it's basically stretched as far as it can go.

So I guess then you get to the point of, well, do they go find another donor and continue to make the clone army from a new donor or just start a different method of recruitment entirely? But we do hear Tarkin say, if the Galactic Empire is to be stronger than the Republic, which preceded it, its soldiers must follow suit. We know from that Citadel Ark

that, and from Omega's reminders throughout this episode, Tarkin does not like clones, Omega warns Hunter not to trust him. He puts the bad batch through, not only a let me see what you got test, but then switches mid-test to live rounds.

Some amazing, not only a droid reprogramming, but amazing vibrope blade work from our guys here. Remarkable stuff. So a lot of that conforms to what we already know about Tarkin, and it promises hopefully more reveals in the future, but there wasn't a lot new from Tarkin here.

What level of involvement do you think he's going to have moving forward in the series? Presumably he will be in pursuit of the bad batch for much of this initial season and maybe beyond. Is he going to be the threat that you introduced at the beginning, and then he kind of lingers in the shadows and we know he's there, but isn't always on the front lines of the episode, or do you think he's going to be like a main character in the show? Yeah, that's what I wonder, because now that the Bad Batch has defected, aside from

Crosshair, who is that POV character inside the Empire, is it Crosshair who is extremely unsympathetic at the moment? Or is it Tarkin? Is it someone else who gives us that look at the Empire's inner workings? I would think that we will hear a lot more about the Army and the clones. It still seems like they're going to be. growing babies on Camino, so they must have some DNA left there. But you would think, like, he's clearly intrigued by the idea of super soldiers, right? He's like raising an eyebrow like,

hey, okay, these guys are super strong and have super eyesight and super smarts. Maybe we could make a whole army out of the bad batch. Tarkin is the power broker. You heard it here, folks, from Ben Lindberg. Tarkin is going to try to create more of the serum and build his own. Super Soldier Army? You would think. He's like, how many of these guys do you have left? Just asking? Just curious.

Only five? That's a shame. And you see that the Kaminoans, Kaminoids, let them escape, right? Which is also interesting. Why do they want to keep the bad batch out of the empire's hands? Maybe it's because they're myth that they're canceling their contract. But maybe it's more than that.

Maybe they fear what would happen if these advantageous genital. mutations suddenly get incorporated into a new army. So I had a perhaps wrong and bad read on that. So Lama Sue says to Nala Say basically like, let's keep their escape quiet until we know what's up with this whole imperial thing. But Nala Say helps facilitate their escape by keeping the hangar door open. And I thought that was less about the bad batch and more about Omega, who of course now was part of the Bat Batch, but specifically about Omega, who we're going to talk about more in a

minute or two, actually, let's just go out of order. We'll do five and then we'll come back to four. Let's talk about Omega now. Yeah. Now, you might be thinking to yourself, how could Omega be a favorite canonical connection of ours? Well, as Ben mentioned earlier, you know, Omega is a new character. Yes, but this archetype and this dynamic of precocious, powerful youngster paired with adoptive Guardian is a familiar rubric in the Star Wars universe. How much of this dynamic maps against that existing template and how much is new and fresh obviously remains to be seen. But the question I think of what role Omega will play in the rest of the story is, I think,

a central one. When Omega first comes to say hello, tech scans her and IDs her as a, quote, adolescent human female, origins uncertain. And then later, Tech realizes that when Nala Se told Tarkin that there were five enhanced clones, just counting Omega, because Echo is not an enhanced clone. And then Tech says he confirmed this by

analyzing Omega's DNA, continuing Star Wars' super weird tradition of stealing children's blood without asking them about it and analyzing it. Shouts to Quigon Jin and the Middiclorians. Now and always. I never gets any less weird.

Are you watching that scene? Oh, let me clean your wound. Can I, oh, sorry, don't mind me. I'm just harvesting your blood to send to Obi-1 and study. Is that okay? All right. And tech also tells the group, after they spot Tarkin's probe droid on Anderon

and argue about the mission, that Omega's warning was lightly right. He says, quote, a state of heightened awareness is not unusual for an enhanced clone such as herself. Hunter makes the call to go back and get her, despite the warning not to go back. She's one of us, he says, and she is so touched that they returned. This is after, of course, she had sat with them at the cafeteria table. They're finding this family together. Beautiful stuff. Nalasei and Omega are wearing matching

gems. Nalasei had described her as a child with a, quote, curious mind. that causes her to wander, certainly seems like she has a keen interest in her. Do you think there's any chance that Nala Se specifically set out to design Omega? Or did she grow attached to her along the way? I mean, obviously, we don't know the answers to these questions. But, you know, just look at the name. What does Omega mean? What role will she play in the story?

Is she Omega because she's perfected? They can't do any better. better than this. And if so, what does that mean about her abilities, which we really haven't seen yet? It would be out of character. Other than her picking up a blaster and shooting without any training exemplary form. Lucky shot. But end that heightened awareness. Like, is that just because she's a child clone, as tech said, or could that be her specific skill? Yeah. Yeah, the scene where they're in the cell and she talks to crossair and she says, I know what you're about to do. Right. I know it's not your fault. You can't help it. I was wondering, is this telepathy? Is she reading his thoughts and

emotions? Or does she just know about the inhibitor chip? And that's just kind of kept open now? From the medical bay. Well, and she's in the medical bay. So she could know just from the scans and access to that kind of material. But I had that same thought. Like, does she have some sort of intuition about people's natures? Can she actually read their minds? And it would be out of character for the cloners to care about a clone in that way. We haven't really seen them demonstrate. much emotion. Do you disagree, though, that it seemed like she did? Yeah, I mean, they start using live rounds and they're worried about the damage, right?

Like, will you pay me back for this, basically? They're more worried about that than the human cost. You know, they don't really see the clones as individuals, which is maybe a product of the fact that they've grown millions of them in vats. And so they start to seem a little less like personalities. But it would be kind of cool. I think if we had a deviation from that. And you're right, the matching pendants certainly seems to speak to some kind of connection here.

The escape that she facilitates, like, one would think that this is more than the typical clooner relationship. So this is obviously going to be one of the big questions and mysteries surrounding this season. What exactly is Zomega capable of? And what does that mean for who will be trying to track her down, which we just saw in the The Mandalorians, Palpatine wants Grogu's midiCorps, give me that blood. And will we see the same thing here? Oh, no. Oh, no.

You know, a lot of the tension. Perish the thought. Yeah, I mean, the conflict and the tension in the Mandalorian comes from Groku getting endangered, which is difficult for all of us. But so much of it is about protecting this child. Otherwise, Mando could just jet off to the outer rim somewhere and handle himself. And so it's sort of the same dynamic here, one would think, where if the bad batch wanted to just lay low and escape, they can take care of themselves. But if they have people coming after them because of Omega, then suddenly they're placed in this protective role.

And I think that will be a source of a lot of the conflict because, you know, Faloni has said in the past that it's important not to make the bad batch invincible superheroes. There has to be some vulnerability there. And Jennifer Corbett said that, you know, clearly we've seen them be very capable in combat. It doesn't seem like they struggle with most missions, but they will struggle perhaps with taking care of this kid and keeping her safe. And so that will be the big assignment for them now. I feel like she'll be taking care of them most of the time. It could work that way too. Yeah.

Very mature. Very mature child. Our last delightful, cherished canonical connection here that we wanted to call out is seeing Saw, who we knew. was going to be a presence in the season from the trailers, but I wasn't necessarily expecting right away. I think that Saw, to me, feels representative, a good example of a character who we've seen in a lot of different stories across the canon,

but are still learning more about. So it's exciting to be able to fill in some of these missing years and learn more about how he evolved from this republic fighter working to retake his home world into the lies, deception, poor gullet, extremist who perishes in Rogue One. I thought that the scene with Sado functioned very effectively, not only for him, but for the bad batch. Crosshair, once again, just ready and willing,

to kill all of the children. Oh, Grandma, you need to take out Grandma? Just say the word. He's ready. Everyone else is, of course, disturbed. Have some questions about this mission. And Saw says, thought provokingly, why don't you take a look at the insurgents you were sent to destroy

makes you wonder what else they're lying about? But the parts that I liked best was the choice that he gives them at the end, acknowledging their agency and their capacity for independent thought and action. He says, the clones once helped us free Andron, so we'll give them a choice. The old ways are done. You can either adapt and survive or die with the past. The decision is yours. Now, on the one hand, adapt and survive or die is not like the most novel line or thought

to introduce into a story, but it does feel very of a piece with the themes around the bad batch breaking off and going on their own. Yeah, and he doesn't force them to make that choice at gunpoint immediately. It's like, hey, come to this on your own terms. Take your time, figure out which side you want to fight for. We don't want to force you into this. We don't want to gun you down here and now. So I appreciate the options that he gave them.

Who else? Who else are we hoping to see this season? This can be kind of a mix. We'll keep this rapid fire of predictions. some are certainties based on sneak peeks in the trailer, some are wishes. Let's start with Rex. We've mentioned Rex a lot today.

We know that Rex is going to be in the season because he's in the trailer. And my question, I should say we got the two screeners, the screener for the premiere and then the screener for a Friday's episode. I have not watched Friday's episode yet, so I do not know what is coming.

But I immediately thought, oh, I wonder if Rex is the old friend that they're going to go find on J-19 when Hunter says there's somewhere that they can go and someone that they can need because Rex was a huge part of the Bad Batch arc in season seven and is intimately acquainted with Echo. So whether Rex comes into the next episode, I don't yet know, but I think we will be seeing him quite soon. And I think he's the one who can tell them to remove their inhibitor chips.

Yeah, I have seen the second episode, so I will reserve comment. me, Ben. No comment, but we know that he's coming. And, yeah, we've lost track of him a little bit. We don't know exactly how he gets from the end of Clone Wars to Rebels. So it'll be nice to catch up with him and maybe also with his colleagues in Rebels, right? Gregor and Wolf. We don't know exactly how they remove their chips and met up with Rex again.

So there's some lingering questions from the Clone Wars, you know, not keeping me up at night. necessarily, but Fenwick next. Of course, we know, confirmed that Fenwick will be in the season. But how? In what way? There's a lot to learn about Fenick

and who Fenick was and what Fenick was doing at this point. You know, are we already at the top mercenary working in the crime syndicates area of Fenwick's life or something else entirely. I look forward to finding out. And there's some streaming synergy here. We know that Disney is eager to set up

Book of Boba Fett. So anytime you can have a tie-in, I'm sure they will jump at that opportunity. But this is a really rich territory. There are a lot of characters we know and love or know in loath who are just bouncing around the galaxy right now. It's a time of turmoil. We don't know exactly where they are what they're doing. And this is an opportunity to see that. So, you know, you have the obvious candidates like Vader who we know what he's doing. Ever heard of him. Ever heard of them. Ever heard of them. You would imagine he might make an appearance at some point.

This to me feels like a guarantee. We were talking about this in a ring reverse planning meeting last week. I think our group prediction is this is like season one finale stuff, Vader, coming into the picture. What do you think? Yeah, sounds reasonable. And you know, you always have to worry about overplaying it and over exposing these characters. Not with Vader. Let's go.

Bring them in. Also, but this is the other thing. Like I was saying earlier, I don't know that everybody feels this way, but I do think this is a pretty commonly held opinion among Clone Wars and Rebels fans. Like this version of Vader, you know, the moment where we see Vader in the Clone Wars finale

is like, I mean, is that one of the best Star Wars moments of all time when he picks up Assookas lightsaber? I think it might be. And everything. And I mean this. Everything with Vader and Rebels is incredible. like spine tingling. So I really hope that we get more of Faloni's version of Vader because it's all been

like just absolute revelation to this point. I want more of it. I'm greedy. Yeah. And speaking of Asoka, we know that she's in hiding during this period. We know something about her whereabouts here. It would make some sense to have her pop up. And of course, you have the Asoka series on the horizon.

So there's another opportunity to set. something up. And, you know, I'm... That will be much later in the timeline, though. Yes, yes, of course. And I'm kind of concerned trolling here. And I hesitate to suggest that there could be such a thing as too much Asoka. Don't say it.

Can there be too much of a good character? Maybe not. But look, if she's in everything, especially if Omega is kind of playing the Asoka-esque role in Bad Batch, if we have Asoka in Clone Wars, in Rebels, in Mando, in her own series, in her own series, do we need her in the bad batch? Will I be sorry if we don't see her here? No, but if she shows up and she's used in a good way as she generally has been, then I will be happy to see her again.

I think that this is the same key for almost all these characters. It's like the note that Dumbleder leaves with the invisibility cloak. Use it well, right? Right, like, use these moments sparingly and use them smartly, and the impact can be supreme. I, you know, as noted, Assoca's novel is set in this time period after Order 66. Does it make sense to be on these side missions with Asoka, on a ship with Assoca and bail? Maybe, maybe not. But, you know, another character, a group of characters on this list of, hey, could we see figure X?

is I think the Inquisitors, there's a lot of incredible canon between Asoka and the Inquisitors, certainly down the road in Rebels, but also in her novel, like, can you give us the screen version of Asoka purifying the previously bled

chiber crystals and forging her pure white lightsaber? Like, I don't know how that interacts or potentially could overlap with the bad batch story, but I would be delighted to find out. Yeah. Yeah, and I mean, you have some other obvious candidates here who will be starring in their own series soon.

There are a lot of Star Wars series coming soon, it turns out. Obi-One. Yeah, you got Obi-Wan. My darling, Obie. Obie, I love you. You've got Lando. All of these people are bouncing around. And look, if this series is successful, I won't be wondering, where's Lando all the time?

Like, there are 10 other TV shows. There will be places to see Lando and Boba and Obi-Wan. So what I want, first and foremost, is for this series to make me care about new characters, right? For these characters to become characters that I will want to see popping up in some other spin-off down the world potentially. So I'm less concerned with that. That said, if we get Grogu in the Bad Batch, I will be beside myself. You're going to lose it, just like the rest of us. If the Bad Batch plays some part in Grogu surviving the Purge.

Oh, my God. That would be fucking amazing. It would. That would be amazing, and now anything other than that is going to disappoint me. Thanks, Ben. Appreciate it. Yeah, the point about forging the bonds with the new characters is obviously an important one. I don't know if you've ever heard this mentioned in a Star Wars story, though, but it's all about balance.

Quickly before we wrap, we've covered a lot of questions about both macro and micro aspects. Any other lingering questions in your mind for what awaits? So Omega, obviously we've talked about that. A lot of questions still surrounding her. The structure of the series, again, I mentioned aftermath not really reflective of what this will be like week to week. So will this be more episodic? Will it be serialized? Will it be a mix of mini arcs like the Clone Wars?

I suspect mini arcs. I feel like that'll be the template that they stick with because it worked so well at the late Clone War seasons and in rebels. But who knows? One would think, you know, could it be a blend of all of the above, like the Mandalorian? So we don't know exactly what the format will be. We talked a little bit about the bad batch and whether they can morph from archetypes to rich and complex characters we care about, not just, you know, one-dimensional soldiers with a particular set of skills.

Like the, I think the challenge of clone character development is a little different here. Like in the Clone Wars, as we discussed, the clones look. identical, so almost at least. So small differences went a long way. A lot of neck and facial tattoos to help character stand out and some really just remarkable hairdoes. Yes. And so here the outward differences are... Helpful doodles on the armor or the armor? Yeah, just, I mean, a little differentiation really helps set them apart. Whereas here, the outward differences are so obvious that it might make it easier for casual viewers to tell them apart, which could be a good thing, but could also kind of lead to these characters

just being broad and being defined by those one-dimensional traits. Like, Rekker is basically Leroy Jenkins at this point. And, you know, does he have more capacity to have greater depth? Or is that just who Rekker is? And is that okay? So I think that's one of my questions. And, you know, as we touched on, I think just the contrast between the big budget. trailblazers who are shouldering this heavy load of universe building like the Mandalorian or like Wanda Vision or like Falcon, which were setting up blockbusters and Badbatch, which is tying into all of these existing properties, as we said, but might just be a satisfying Star Wars story. That's, you know, maybe what it has to do. Oh, Ben, my sweet summer

child, we'll be at the multiplex for the first film in the Omega trilogy before you know it. You're probably right. That second point that you made about the clone character development, that's really interesting. I am expecting a lot of thematically rich and layered reflection and interspection. And I think that the roadmap for that was already established in this premiere and really actually before that in the, season seven intro arc. But like, you know, take even in exchange like the one in the cafeteria,

pre-food fight between Wrecker and Tech. When Wreker says that no one can control him and tech tells him, and this is his teammate, his brother, someone who supports him, but believes in him and is encouraging him, he says to him, well,

your pension for destruction is itself a product of your conditioning. I think it will be fascinating to see the characters grapple with ideas like that all season long to assess and seek to better understand and evolve their own nature. And, you know, take also the entire Crosshair

Hunter dynamic in the premiere, which really tapped into those questions and themes as well. Like the line from Crosshair to Hunter when Tarkin throws them into the break, good soldiers follow orders, Crosshair says, every choice you've made since caller has been wrong. Now, I love that moment because crosshair is intending to insult and wound and undermine Hunter and his authority, but he's actually explaining to audiences why we should be rooting for Hunter in the bad batch.

You know, like you pair that with something like Hunter saying in the final battle, I did what I thought was right, the fact that they have agency and free will. and the capacity and desire, crucially, to act on that free will, will make them characters who are worth investing in rooting for and coming back week after week to learn more about. That's my hope. I think this potential's there. Me too.

Finally, I'm a long time on the record admirer of Obi-1 from Clone Wars, animated Obi-1, who is great-looking, okay? Great looking. And you mentioned how handsome Saw Guerrera looks. And so I have to ask, the bad batch heart throb power ranking of the week, what's your top three? Okay. Well, top pick, smart is sexy.

So I'm going with tech. Tech is my bad batch dream boat this week. And I have to say, I resent that the smart one is also. the scrawny, pasty one with the receding hairline. Why can't the geeks be the one with the face tattoo and the headband and the glorious slacks? This is typecasting that the geek has to be. Maybe tech doesn't want a face tattoo. He's got really cool armor.

Yeah, he's got goggles, I guess. Yeah, the translation goggles that he uses with the vault accents using seven to translate. Love those. Very handy. Anyway, he has the answers. canon that he records, quote, everything with the goggles. So that's a little, that's a little troubling. And he also just examines your DNA whether you want him to or not.

But, aside from that. We have some notes. We have some notes, Tack. All right. Number two, I'm going to say Hunter. And I guess this is the predictable pick. Hunter would be the front man in the bad batch boy band, I guess. But he is not just a pretty tattooed face.

I mean, I know that he is, he's basically Billy from Predator or. a rainbow rip-off, but he has a sensitive side, right? And he commands respect. He is the leader. He's trustworthy. So Hunter is my number two. And number three, controversial pick, possibly. Echo. Not everyone would be into Echo's aesthetic, but I think the Lobot look is working for him. And being more machine than man is a pathway to many abilities. Some consider to be a Unnatural. Some considered to be sensual. Who's to say? This is a family-friendly podcast. Not really. Yeah. Maybe he doesn't just jack into computer ports is what I'm saying. Oh, my God. Wow. Okay. Tune in for episode two indeed. Goodness. Wow. My top three. Saw number one obviously goes with that same. Of course. I mean, he's eligible. Yeah. Incredible. Yeah. I consider a bad batch to be the show, not just the actual bad batch. So I'm amending the the rules on the fly hair. You're allowed to update your list if you want. Hunter number two for all the

reasons mentioned. And I'm going to throw this out there. You can throw it right back if you don't like it. Crosshair at number three. Wow. I love, I love the gray hair. I love the face chat. I think that he's really making the look work for him. And I support it. He's got kind of the Clint Eastwood Cadbane look to him. I like the toothpick. Cadbane. One of my favorites. I don't know that he needs the name crosshair and the crosshair tattoo on his eye and the crosshair on his helmet.

That feels like overkill to me. He's like a, you know, Instagram age influencer, though. He understands that you really have to build the brand. He's leaning in. Tough look for Wrecker, I guess, snubbed by both of us. But can we just pay tribute to D. Bradley Baker for a second who's been playing. the progeny of Django Fed for close to 15 years now. And he voices everyone in the bad patch, except for Omega. He's not that good. But no matter what your heartthrob rankings look like,

he's at the top of the list. So kudos to him for playing so many roles in the same series. Well said. Here, here. All right, friends, Steve and Jomey are about to start a Zoom cafeteria food fight. So that's a wrap on today's episode. Thank you. As always, to our wonderful producer, Steve Allman, as well as to T.D. St. Matthew Daniel, Arjuna Ram Gapal and the entire production team for their help with today's episode. Thank you, as always, to the Lord of the Memes, show me a dinner on for his work on the social media for this episode. And thank you to my fellow member of the Ringer Verse 99, Ben Lindberg, for joining me today.

Remember, follow us on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Ring Reverse. Join the Ringervverse Facebook group. And head back this way on Friday for more from the Midnight Boys, Van and Charles. I will be back next Tuesday. Until then, don't lose track of your lure. What's the difference between butter and butter made from real California dairy? It's the real California farm families behind it.

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