The Ringer-Verse - The Best of Batman With Sean Fennessey

Episode Date: May 25, 2021

In anticipation of the newest Matt Reeves-helmed 'The Batman' film, Mal is joined by The Ringer's Sean Fennessey to talk about the best of Batman across film and hand out their own personal superlatives for all things Bat (15:14)! They break down their favorite Batman performance (39:20), best Batmobile (66:21), best villain (72:23), and many more. Host: Mallory Rubin Guest: Sean Fennessey Producer: Steve Ahlman Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal and TD St. Matthew-Daniel Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The watch is the latest and the greatest in pop culture from best friends Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald. Join them as they discuss TV, movies, music, and much more. Check out the watch on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks. followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Tramphia, proper training is required.

Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need of action. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramfaya today.

Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Tramphiator.com. The playoffs are here and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul predict. Predict the spread, total points and even the game winner. Sign up and get a $25 bonus. Offered by Fandul Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant, 18 plus. Bonus is non-withdrawable and expired. You buy or seven days after receipt. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors.

Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. Let's play a game. Just me and you. Any of this mean anything to you? Greetings. And welcome into the Ringerverse here on the Ringer podcast network. I'm Mallory Rubin. Co-host of Binge mode, head of editorial here at the Ringer. And it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not. not only to Gotham, but to join us on this podcast feed for all things nerd culture and fandom. Joining me today, now that he's finished filing the nipples off of his bat suit, it's host of the big picture, head of content here at the Ringer, and our own dark night.

Sean Fentasy! Sean, welcome into the Ringerverse. Mal, people need dramatic examples to shake them out of apathy. And I can't do that on the big picture. So I'm so happy to be here with you. I'm delighted that you exited the Batcave and joined us here today. We have so much to talk about. Before we shoot through the cascading waterfall into today's show, though, a few reminders for everyone.

The Midnight Boys, Van and Charles, will of course be with you this Friday. Pugh, Pugh. and they had a little treat for everyone at the top of this week with an Eternals instant trailer reaction. So check that out. If you haven't, I will, of course, be back with you next week. Another reminder, follow the pod on all of our social channels. Follow the pod on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And of course, your friendly neighborhood spoiler warning. And this is a blanket spoiler warning today. We're talking about Batman. This episode will feature plot details from the wider Batman movie universe. And then some speculation about what's to come.

So proceed with caution. Proceed with as much caution as you would while entering the penguins layer beneath the old zoo. Okay. Sean. Wait, Mal, did you just do a spoiler warning for Batman? Isn't Batman a hundred years old? What's to spoil here? It's the internet, man. Okay. You got to say spoiler warning. You got it. Let me tell you about Martha Wayne. So wait, he's a detective and he wears a cape and there's a Joker.

That's it, right? End of pod. Cowell, some finely etched abs in the armor. I can relate. Now everyone's caught up. Sean, we're here to talk about Batman. for two main reasons. One, been a lot of Batman out in the ether lately.

The Batman sneak peaks for the March 2022, Matt Reeves. Our Pats film, new glimpse of the bat suit, some riddler images making their way out into the world, an announcement of the new HBO Max and Cartoon Network animated series coming from Matt Reeves, J.J. Abrams. Batman animation God, Bruce Tim, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Still in the zone of Snyderverse,

Batfleck talk. The other reason is that we're nerds and we love Batman. So let's start there before we dive in. What do you love about Batman? I've been trying to land on a cohesive, all-encompassing theory of Batman ever since you asked me to do this.

And I don't have one, unfortunately. I do not have an all-connective, Mallory Rubin-approved, big concept about themes. I think the thing that I like about Batman is he is a blank slate. He is one of the more interpretable characters. I don't think his origin is terribly interpretable, per your Martha Wayne joke, but I think everything else about him is a, it's a carnival of psychology, right?

This is clearly a very disturbed man who's enormously wealthy, who can buy or build anything he wants, and he also has arguably the greatest menagerie of villains. And so you put those things together and you have this ever replenishing pot of stories to tell. And so, you know, there's a reason that he is kind of the first major comic book character to emerge into our movie and television landscape and also has been more or less the most persistent because there's always something new to do with him, or at least it has felt that way to this day. And so we're getting another movie in a year. We're getting another animated series in a year. We'll see if that continues to be the case in 2022. But going back and revisiting all of the stories, the books that I read in the 90s and the series and the films, I felt very comfortable.

I felt very safe. And I felt like everything was different enough that it was not. You felt safe inside of a Batman story. Well, you know, I have a dark carnage on the Gotham streets. I have a darkness inside me, you know, and so I'm able to channel it with the Batman. What about you though? What do you like about Batman? Do you like Batman?

I do. And I just want to, before answering that question, I want to say that I want to say that. I was fairly certain heading into this experience that your answer to, what do you love about Batman, would be Batman inspired Matt Harvey's nickname The Dark Night. So you surprised me. Well, I have a much more complicated relationship to Matt Harvey these days than I do with Batman. Proud Baltimore Oriole, Matt Harvey.

Yeah, he's really morphed into the Joker, hasn't he? You know, just chaos raining throughout his life, sad. No, no, no, no. We're in the Dark Night returns. We're inside of a Frank Miller story. right now with this Oriole season. The ERA returns to 6.6, as I recall. That was rude, and you're saying rude things about someone who I know is very important to you.

Yes, I love Batman. Batman's a personal favorite. And I think that Batman is simultaneously a constant and ever-changing in a way that I find comforting and refreshing all at once. You know, I think that right now, as we inch toward the Batman, Matt Reeves is the Batman, which of course was like so many other movies and productions, delayed amid the pandemic, has been shifted back. The questions of the connection or lack of connection to the DCU continuity, this movie will be set reportedly on Earth 2. and we're also moving toward the Flash movie, which reported by Anthony Breskin in Vanity Fair

last year will feature Ben Affleck, Michael Keaton. This is, of course, the Flashpoint story, so we're going to get the Multiverse. Batman's across the multiverse. And so we're moving into a moment in time in the D.C. where Batman's stories, a lot of Batman stories are surfacing, and they will be a part of this wider DC multiverse storytelling tapestry, but there's an opportunity for each of them to take on their own identity.

I am sure that there are comic book fans or even Batman fans out there who think that's maybe a lot at once, maybe more than I want at once. And especially given, listen, if you haven't to the Armchair CEO Midnight Boys episode on how to fix the DCEU amid a lot of the questions about the lack of cohesive identity inside of the DCEU, maybe this is not a good thing. But I'm excited for it because one of the things that I love about Batman is that you know you're going to have the through line of the quest for humanity, the simultaneous push-pull, draw,

and almost repulsive force of acknowledging the draw to yourself that you feel toward family. What do you need? What do you fear that you need? The villains and how they grow with the character. I like the idea of seeing this. that at the beginning of Bruce Wayne's origin and the Matt Reeves film will be set in from all reports and indications year two. So it's not the year one, but it is the year two arc.

Those are, of course, both comic arcs. As I understand it, the plot of the film is not mapped directly onto the comic arc, but is set broadly in that period of time. And then, of course, we're coming out of the Ben Affleck, Snyderverse, Bruce Wayne Batman period of time. older, beleaguered, the weight of the world. Now, Batman's always a character who carries the weight of the world, right? But I kind of enjoy the idea of in the same moment in time in our universe, being able to explore different periods of time in Batman's universe. That's fun and exciting to me. So seeing things like the glimpse of the R-Pats bat suit last week, if anybody missed this, this was revealed in further detail. We've, of course, seen glimpses in promo material already,

trailers. It was a statue, like an intricate, highly detailed rendering of the suit from Prime One studios. This is in a video that was released last week. And the internet just sprung into not only sleuthing, looking for any clues that might be buried in the costume. And this, of course, traces back to the original images of the bat suit surfacing when the internet started to theorize en masse about whether the chest plate bat symbol could have perhaps been made from the gun that was used to murder Bruce's parents. There would, of course, be comics precedents for that. The Kevin Smith and Kevin Smith tweeted about this. Oh my God, I hope they did this. This would comfort my story. Jim Lee, 2018, Detective Comics 1000 arc. Everybody loves

a new bat suit. So the excitement, even though the movie is basically a year away really kicked in and then new images of Paul Dano's Ridler surfacing so much talk last week on Twitter on the internet about the visual symmetry with the Zodiac killer. You're a big Zodiac killer head. Did that excite you? Yeah, I don't know how to feel about that. On the one hand, the film Zodiac is one of my favorite movies of the last 30 years. It's one of the many things at the heart of your bond with Chris Ryan. It is. That's a core context for Chris and I. I wouldn't say I'm a big Zodiac killer guy, though. I think I worry about how that sounds publicly. It's not necessarily a claim I want to stake, but I like the idea of grounding a villain in that way and kind of putting some of the iconography

of real world terror around a Batman villain, because that's the other thing to your point about Batman is he is a human man. He is, this is one of the only human men that gets much attention here on the ringerverse. You know, this is a space for intergalactic and superpowered beings. and fantasy stories in other worlds. And this is a guy. He's a rich guy. He's a handsome guy. He's a playboy,

but he's a dude. And that makes it a different kind of a story. I'm glad you mentioned that, because this is also at the heart of the appeal. You could make a corollary certainly to a Tony Star, Iron Man. This is not a literal god. This is not a cosmic being. There's something highly relatable about that.

This is a human, a person just like me, who decided, inspired by horror, yes, but decided to do something different with his life, the vigilanteism that's at the heart of the Batman story verse. I think the flip side to that is really apparent, which is you could pretty easily argue that that caliber of wealth is maybe the greatest superpower that there is and maybe the most unattainable. one. So it's a little bit of the dissonance at the heart of Batman that I also find interesting and like eternally compelling because you do feel this magnetic pull. Oh, Bruce Wayne is just a human being and that could be me. And then you have these moments when you're walking around Wayne Manor or attending these lavish balls watching Bruce attend these lavish balls and the the series of romantic interlids, often brief ones, cars, gadgetry, all of it. It feels totally unattainable.

And then inside of that, these trappings of wealth and fame and society that in some ways are supposed to be aspirational, almost always in a Batman story, it's loneliness, it's despair. It's a lack of connection and this ever-present reminder that the glitz and the glam can't buy, not to go all, money, can't buy happiness, but can't buy Bruce the thing that he really deeply, deeply craves, which is, and again, fears. I love the way the Lego movie handles the dual edge of craving and fearing connection. It's a human story. as much as it is a superhero story and it's great. I'm very excited about the

announcement of the animated series that's in the works. That's coming to HBO Max Cartoon Network, Batman Caped Crusader. This is, there's also the Gotham PD HBO Max

Reeves story in the works as well. Time frame, I think, for that one, still unclear. But again, a lot of Batman happening. So, because of all that, because we're moving closer and closer to Patinson, Paul Dano, Colin Farrell, Zoe Kravitz, et cetera. So it would be fun today to revisit, revisit the long list of prior Batman films and attempt to map out what we think works, what we're drawn to inside of a Batman movie.

Or we're going to do this with the bat purlatives, some Batman superlatives, our favorite things. And this is going to be specifically Batman in film because there's, of course, a vast Batman universe beyond the movies, animated shows, live action shows, decades and decades and decades of comic book storytelling. We will, I'm sure, mention some of that as we go. But we're going to focus primarily today on the movies as we build toward the new movie.

So let's start with best live action Batman movie. What's your pick here? Well, this is kind of an easy one. way to get into this conversation. This is a soft launch because I know that you agree with me about this pick. Batman and Robin. No, it's not Batman and Robin. Can you imagine if I picked that? I do have a big theory about Batman and Robin that I'm happy to share with you. I'm excited to hear it. Before I give my pick, should I share my theory? Please. Okay. I think Batman and Robin is the most consequential movie of the 1990s and maybe the most consequential movie of the last 25 years in in Hollywood.

And the reason for that is because it is an absolute disaster. It is, I think on the one hand, it's the movie that it seems like Joel Schumacher wanted to make. Joel Schumacher who pursued a kind of camp intensity in the Batman franchise and made that movie ridiculous. It seemed like simultaneously an homage to, you know, the Batman series from the 60s starring Adam West, some of the cartoon elements, but more specifically, a kind of like theatrical, dance inspired, pun-inspired. camp show. And I think studio executives got a look at what Schumacher did, how he ran amok with the franchise, and they were like never again. What we need is a pristine measure of control that shifted the balance of power from filmmaker to studio specifically and led to the rise of the Kevin Feigy types, who became shepherds of these very important intellectual property,

barns, houses, stables. And I think without the kind of quote unquote failure, but more specifically the kind of mockery that came with that movie and the everlasting stench that hangs around it, I think that we would not have the MCU, we would not have the DCEU, we would not have these conversations about Snyder. I mean, look at the Snyder conflict in many ways

is representative of what was born out of Batman and Robin, which is this Oator comes in, which historically that has not been necessarily the way to introduce a series of figures. And he has a very defined vision, that vision does not match with the executive class and then conflict. When you say that vision does not match, do you mean that George Clooney is not Val Kilmer?

That's a factor. Although, you know, like that goes back to your point, I think earlier about the way that Batman doesn't expire because, like, we're able to manage multiple Batman's at any given time.

You know, I came of age in the early 90s, Michael Keaton was Batman, and so was Kevin Conroy on the animated series. You know, like those two things were contemporaneous to each other. So anyhow, all is to say,

the one time, the one time that a series has been fully entrusted to one filmmaker that ultimately led to, I think, something approaching true greatness is the Dark Night. The Dark Night is, obviously, Christopher Nolan's second film in the Dark Night trilogy. And I'm a little, I'm a little, actually a little iffy on the Dark Night trilogy. I think Batman Begins leaves a little bit to be desired for me personally. And the Dark Night Rises is very fun, but also, I think, very messy. The Dark Night though is pristine. That I think is like genuinely one of the clearest executions of the Batman

story. It's the greatest approximation of the Joker in many ways. It is I think also a like a similarly grounded vision of Gotham in a way that we have not really seen in most of these movies. Gotham is historically this sort of like grand guignolle like noir palace

of smoke and fog and dames and you know criminals and alleys and this you know, Nolan's Gotham is different. Nolan's Gotham is a real American city and the things that happen inside of it feel touchable, tangible.

And in addition to, you know, obviously Heath Ledger's performance, which will go down in the record books as one of the greats, and all of the supporting characters and the score and the staging of the action sequences and Bale's performance, there's so much in the Dark Night that

feels elevated even above the best Batman stuff. It feels otherworldly, well, being a regular guy's story. So that, to me, is definitely the best live-action Batman. But I assume you agree with this. I do agree. That's my pick as well, probably unsurprisingly.

I'm glad you mentioned Gotham feeling so recognizablely like a city around us. There's a certain Captain America, the Winter Soldier comp there, where that is not the most fantastical Marvel movie, but it is the most recognizably our world inside of the Marvel universe. Tim Burton's Gotham, rewatching all of the movies this past weekend. It's, I mean, it's, it's amazing to look at. There's a almost like industrial age London kind of quality to it.

The smoke stacks. You can't escape the soot. you feel in some ways like you're maybe inside of a Dickens novel more than you are the DC comp for New York, right? I agree, obviously, with everything that you said about The Dark Night. I think maybe I like Batman begins and The Dark Night rises a little bit more than you do. I mean, I love the Nolan trilogy. I love the Dark Night trilogy overall. And The Dark Night is an awesome movie that is enjoyable. and layered and rich,

no matter how many times you rewatch it. I think the list of things that don't work for me inside of the Dark Night is really, really small. I always get hung up just a little bit on. I love the Two-Face rendition. I love Harvey Dent's character, but the way that Bruce, the way that Batman and Gordon

and everybody else idolizes and deifies him. Now, of course, that is ingrained in the text of the story and the themes of the story, this need, not only that Bruce as a person feels, but the city of Gotham feels, and humanity feels, civilization feels, to hold up somebody or something that seems better, better than them,

like the ideal to strive for. That's ingrained in the text. That's, again, part of the point. But there are just all of these moments watching it, I'm like, are we, it reminds me of like the old Bill Grantland sports. Like, are we sure he's good idea? You know, like, are we sure that Harvey Dent is the guy who would have inspired this response in everybody?

But other than that, it's just an incredible movie. And the ledger performance is absolutely iconic. It's, it's the best. So about the two-face thing, it's an interesting point. And it does feel, it feels a little overworked, a little overmanaged as you're watching the movie. There's a lot of many sequences of Bruce Wayne seeming convinced that Harvey Dent will save the city. And, you know, that's just, that's a little bit of telling and not showing throughout the film, because we don't even totally necessarily know what Harvey is good at. He has one

court case. I think it would work a little bit better if it were subtext instead of overt text. Definitely, right. Yeah. On the other hand, I think that the concept of idolatry is one that really only Batman and Superman, I think, are particularly good at examining. And Superman as the Ubermensch and the kind of ultimate God and Batman as the mortal man, both of whom have a lot of pathos and both of whom have a lot of complexity in their identity and the idea that these two people are saviors when in fact they're both brutally flawed and confused about their identity and who they should be and who they want to be. And the idea that Batman in a way is like is seeking a father figure, seeking an idol of his own and using Harvey as a as a stand-in at least for that idea,

I think it's compelling. Yeah. No, I agree with that. And I think the part of it that does land quite potently is that Bruce almost independent, though in a way, inextricably from what he says aloud about Harvey or is rationally assessing about Harvey in his role in society, on a soul-deep, bone-deep level recognizes that Harvey is functioning in a way in society publicly that he is Bruce Wayne cannot. And maybe he can't even admit to himself that he would like to one day because it is not a possibility for him. And that, of course,

then sets up taking the fall in order to protect that legacy because the legacy for Bruce for Batman, the idea that the people of Gotham would be able to point to that and work to uphold it and find something to believe in, to be clear, that's great. I love that. That's the heart of that movie in many ways. And that is, of course, one of the many things that the Joker is working to tear down, not only the figures who represent that, but the very kernel, that like glowing ember of belief that might still have a little bit of light inside of people. That's what he wants. to not only stamp out, but make people feel ridiculous for thinking they should work to nurture and introduce to a little oxygen and allow it to breathe and flame and bloom again.

So I love all that. Phenomenal movie. I think that my favorite sequence in the entire film is actually the choice, the choice between whether to save Harvey or Rachel. that entire sequence, just from an action movie perspective, the pace of it, like your heart is pounding out of your chest. I think that that's more thrilling than actually the climax of the movie. It's just like a fever pitch of anxiety and the absolute anguish. Because it's not actually that he has a hard time making the choice. He doesn't. Is that he has to live with the fact that

he made that choice and it didn't matter. Brutal! That is an unbelievable sequence in an unbelievable movie. I think the thing I connect to most to that movie specifically is not just Ledger's performance, but the way that the character is positioned in the world, which is not just as this agent of chaos and not just as this person who only is in some ways looking for his soulmate. You know, there are a lot of exchanges between Ledger and Bale about the connectedness between them, the kind of social, the double consciousness really of Batman and

and the Joker. but it's the way that the characters are like literally staged oppositionally to each other. The idea of them racing towards each other, you know, the famous sequence where the truck flips over and then Batman on the motorcycle sort of racing towards him, which is a little bit, yeah, a little bit of an echo of the Burton Batman. There's a sequence very similar to that between Nicholson and Michael Keaton when he's in a plane. And this idea of two people on this headlong journey, not like you and I, Mal, you know, just years before we met each other at Craneland, just two people on the same track going in the same direction right at each other. Boy, this whole time I thought we were, you know.

Riding the same car together? No. This is our collision course. Passengers on a journey, no? But just as we're about to collide, I'm going to spin off and fall off my bike. I really love that movie. I think the thing that is tricky about that whole franchise, and one thing I'm really interested in in the Reeves film is... Batman, the other thing that he is that we haven't really discussed is he's a detective.

You know, he is, it's a detective comics, is the nature of his origin. He is a, is somewhat Sherlock and Holmes inspired. He's a clue master. And the Riddler, who is the antagonist of the new film is, of course, someone who likes to drop clues and who likes to taunt his, his opposite. And the Nolan films, I never really felt like seemed very interested in him as a detective. You know, there is a lot of work with Lucius Fox, like showing him things on screen. they would otherwise point to clues, but the actual detective work,

and I grew up with a detective. My dad was a detective for many years, and so I had a lot of conversations as a young kid about what it means to be that, what it means to work a case. And it's a hard work, and it's kind of boring work. And that's obviously not very cinematic,

and so that's one of the things that I think often gets shed in these series. The Dark Night is like a true blue, brilliant action crime thriller. You know, it's often compared, the darkness is compared to heat because of that opening Banckeye sequence. And I love those movies and I'm really, I'm glad that Nolan went in that direction. But I am looking forward to seeing something potentially that honestly like speaks specifically to the roots of this character.

That's a great point. And Reeves had made no secret of the fact that that DNA, world's greatest detective, crime noir energy will be at the heart of the movie and the ultimately trilogy. that he's setting out to make. I'm glad you mentioned heat. You know, Wayne Groh has always been my favorite part of the dark night. Oh, that's right. Yeah. That's for Chris.

That's for Chris to see if Chris listens. Are you publicly sharing that you just saw Heat for the first time? I had not publicly shared that until just now. Well, here we go. Watched Heat for the first time recently for my husband's birthday. Great movie. And I feel that I texted Chris right away and I said, watching you for the first time,

replaying every conversation that we've had and every meeting that we've been in for literally eight years, you know, the better part of a decade, and feeling like I understand you and John and everyone and all of those conversations a lot better now. And he replied, am I way funnier to you now? Which I just thought was wonderful. He said, no, you're not.

You said the action is the juice. That's what you said. That's right. I said, give me all you got, Chris. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need Weather Tech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner.

Or a road trip goes sideways. Ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. I'm glad you mentioned the collision course, though, and that idea of finding your purpose and your foil,

which is really dark, but also elemental to so many of these stories, including not just the live action ones, but the animated ones. That's our next bat-perlative, best animated Batman movie. What's your pick? To me, there was only one pick.

It was the mask of the phantasm. And I'll tell you why. This is a wonderful film. Steve Allman's favorite. 1993 film. It comes right in the heart of the Batman the animated series, original run. I believe it was about a year

into the production of that show. You mentioned Bruce Tim, who's, of course, like the godfather of the animated Batman universe. And he's one of the co-directors of this film. And the reason that I like this film is, in part, because of what I just said, there are very few films that speak to the detective nature of Batman.

But there are also very few. films that seem as conscious of Batman's origins. And Batman was created in 1939. And this is a noir movie. And noir films essentially start right into the turn of the 40s. And it's a story about a dame who's not what she seems. It's a story about a criminal and a, and an art and a, and a, someone who needs to catch a criminal. It's a story with a lot of scale, but that is also kind of embodies the, I think, the true story of Gotham in a lot of ways. And features wonderful performances. I think we'll talk about one of them a little bit later in this conversation.

And also an animation style that I think was way ahead of the curve. You know, I think way more sophisticated and way more cinematic than you would expect from something like this. I think as a kid, I don't really, I didn't know what I had in Batman the animated series. And I didn't necessarily realize that the Mask of the Fantasm was influenced by, films like out of the past or Laura, you know, these kind of hard

nose, mysterious, elegant, somewhat terrifying, somewhat romantically intoxicating crime stories, noir stories. And this movie is really indebted to that. And it was kind of a bold choice 50 years later to make a Batman animated movie like this.

And the origins of the film are kind of interesting. You know, the idea that like, this wasn't supposed to be a theatrical release. It was considered. like a kind of tossed off like quick buck making project sort of at the height

of the post Batman Returns Batman craze in the US but Tim and the team behind that show obviously worked extra hard to make something that didn't have to be special very special.

We've seen a lot of animated Batman movies since this movie and I you know there are some you'll talk about one that are really fun and great and but for the most part they feel like purposefully

second rate. You know, that you can just sense that they don't have the same amount of budget, the same amount of intentionality, the same measure of focus that like Nolan was able to get for his Batman series. Fantasim is one of the few that I think it lives up to the conversation about Burton, Nolan, et cetera. First of all, love how many times you've already said Dame today. I love it Dame, you know, what can I say? I am but a man. I had the hardest time with this category of every single category that we're going to hit today. This was the toughest call, like a true 1A, 1B for me, between your pick, The Mask of the Fantasim, which is a beautiful, all-inspiring movie that I love, and the one I ultimately

picked. Modern Masterpiece, the Lego Batman movie. I love the Lego Batman movie. I love it. It's so good. So what is it about it that you love? I think that all of the voice acting is wonderful. The pace of the movie, the design, the aesthetic.

It combines two of my great passions, Batman and Legos. I love Legos. So it actually just, it sparks something about my imagination to see the way that Gotham is constructed, to see the motorcade inside of the Batcave. I love the heart of it. I think it's actually really not only sweet, but tender in a way that is occasionally like almost profound. It's very moving to me. And it's also a riot.

So I love the blend of vibes and energy. And I really, really love the highly self-referential nature of it. The way that it comments not only on movie making. you know, with the opening descriptions and voiceover. Warner Bros. Why not Warner Bros. It's so funny.

And also just the, you know, it goes beyond Easter egg placement into this meta-comment on the decades of Batman's storytelling, the way that within the movie it calls back to so many prior moments

inside of Batman movies and Batman's storytelling. stories. I just think it's really smart and crisp and a blast to watch. I love it. But again, this was the hardest, the hardest pick of the whole exercise for me because I think that both of those movies are among the best in the entire set of offerings. They're both really exceptional. Yeah. So I revisited this one last night for the first time since it came out. And it's obviously really fun. I really like all of the Lego movies, honestly. I think they're all really clever and smart. This one in particular is interesting because you have to have a major awareness of all of the

tropes of Batman to get the jokes in this, obviously. It is an active riff on everything we know about Batman. That's part of why I find it rewarding. Yeah, of course. If you've spent your life investing in these things as you and I have, a movie like this really pays off to the point where, you know, the crux of the film is essentially Bruce Wayne saying to the Joker, I don't need you. I don't need anybody. I can separate myself in a way that seems to be actively commenting on the Nolan films. And

obviously, the voice work is amazing and the animation is fascinating. It just feels, it does feel to me like it's ultimately iterative. You know, like the phantasm, and I guess maybe you could make the case that the phantasm film is also iterative of a certain kind of 40s movie like I was talking about,

but it's a copy of a copy as opposed to a copy of a photograph. And that's not a bad thing necessarily. I love that. I'm obsessed with the films of Quentin Tarantino, Edgar Wright, these people who are hyper-conscious of their influences. But with the Lego movies, they're Legos.

They're not human beings recreating something. They're Legos recreating something. Mileage may vary. For me, that's part of what I really like about it. Because whether Legos specifically are a thing that you enjoy playing with or building, the idea of, and again, hyper-aware sense and manifestation, merch, toys,

these building blocks of imagination manifesting in a story that you could recreate and tell inside your own home if you wanted to is really compelling to me. Like, yes, it is definitionally a copy of a copy, but that's baked into its intent

and how it assesses its mission. And I like that because you find yourself or I found myself, you know, watching it, thinking, wouldn't it have been fun to sit around and build Gotham and script out a tail for maybe what my Lego Bruce and my Lego Dick Grayson would have talked about while breaking into the Superman party that Batman wasn't invited to, right? And I would say to your point about saying aloud, I don't need you.

I think that the inverse of that is actually what kind of lingers for me with the movie. It's that it's so hard for Lego Batman to say I do need you. And something about you, whether you is the Joker, whether you is Alfred. You know, there's that like agonizing moment earlier in the movie where he tells Alfred, you wouldn't understand what it's like to have a surrogate son. You don't have a family. Could there be a more hurtful, wounding thing to say to Alfred, who has dedicated his life to nurturing and caring for and supporting Bruce in all of his endeavors?

And to see him work his way toward realizing how ungrateful that kind of sentiment is, but also that the reason that he says things like that is not because he feels. that way, but because he's afraid of the vulnerability of saying the opposite aloud, admitting it not only to other people, but to himself, to do that inside of a movie where Voldemort is flying in the air and there's a fireball engulfing King Kong's face. That's pretty great. I love it. I got no beef with the Lego Batman movie. Okay. Next. Best Batman performance. And I want not only your pick, but your methodology for how you assessed this and how you landed on this. Well, I don't have a methodology for this because it's a purely nostalgic pick.

Okay. Tim Burton's Batman was released in 1990. I was about to turn eight years old when this film was released. And so you can imagine the way that Michael Keaton imprinted upon me what it means to be Batman, which of course is ironic in a way because Michael Keaton, was considered a wildly odd choice for Batman. To that point, he had been a largely comic actor, a person who was noted for his idiosyncrasy as a performer,

his strange speech patterns. It kind of, you know, this was Beetlejuice. And Beetlejuice playing Batman is kind of mystifying to some at the time. But in many ways, he's perfect to me. Because though not classically a handsome guy, he is a very dashing fellow. he is a bit inscrutable in a way that I think Bruce Wayne kind of needs to be. I'm less interested in the kind of dashing playboy Bruce Wayne than I am the tortured soul.

And Keaton could, I think, effectively mimic the playboy routine, but you knew that that's not really what he was, that there was something underneath the surface there that was a little damage, confused, and seeking something. He's a searcher, Batman. He's trying to find the truth. to why he is tortured by all of these things. And, you know, is he as lantern jawed as Christian Bail or Ben Affleck?

No. Is he as physically imposing as Batfleck? No. Is he as effortlessly cool as Robert Pattinson is likely to be as Batman? No. Is he as funny as my number two? Will Arnette? No.

But in many ways, Michael Keaton is Batman. to me. Like there's, he, he is Batman, not Adam West, not Kevin Conroy's voice. It's Michael Keaton in a room talking to Jack Nicholson in white face paint. That is Batman. Um, so that's my pick, but I, I don't, I don't really have a methodology to explore or explain. What about for you? Yeah, so, okay, that's a, it's a, a pick anchored in a formative viewing experience and nostalgia. That's, that's beautiful. I have some thoughts on, on, on the hair in the yeah

I won't defend that in the Batman movies I won't defend it it was a different time it was the turn of the 80s into the 90s we were trying things

with blowouts and odd curls and strange lengths I don't know this was a hard one I had a hard time with this with this pick I think that

you have to be able to be a good Bruce Wayne and a good Cape Crusader to be the best Batman, right? Now, that's probably an obvious thing to say, but I do think it's still worth saying because in a better movie

where Batman as a hero has more things to do, more interesting things to do and is in a coherent, somewhat serious story, George Clooney could be like an iconic Batman, right? But that's not the movie that he was in.

I think that Christian Bale is a really good Bruce Wayne. He might be my favorite Bruce Wayne. But when we're factoring in both Bruce and Batman, the duality of this character, I'm going with the Batfleck, Ben Affleck. And I shocked myself a little bit with this. But let me explain why.

bizarre choice. I love Ben Affleck. It's a bizarre choice. I want to be very clear about something. I am not saying that the movies that he's in are my favorite movies. They are not. And the performance that I like the most from him is in Batman v. Superman, Dawn of Justice, which is not a movie that I enjoy particularly. Nor I. Yes. But I do love I love his performance. I love that as Bruce, he is everything you want Bruce Wayne to be, and you can buy every aspect of him as Bruce. Handsome, effortlessly, wealthy, also uninterested in what society wants from him

and actively rebelling against it in certain respects. His actual Batman, there's something that I enjoy about. got it a lot more than I expected. And again, a lot more than I enjoy the movie in which he is participating, there's a real rage. Not often, not always one that I find that makes sense from a plot perspective. But I think the one that works for his character quite well, one of the things that I really enjoy about it is, and this might be something that's really anchored in this moment and time. and maybe like 20 years from now, my answer here will be very different. But there's an Affleck meta-commentary quality to this that I think really heightens it

in a way that resonates with me. There's like this, you know, this idea of Ben Affleck and the character that he is playing a rich, famous object of public obsession who does not want to live in the public eye in that way. that I think ads just in the layer. I love it. You're not a fan. No, no, no. Well, I really don't like those films very much.

And so that really is colors. But they're the best, he's the best thing about that movie, about Batman v. Superman, at least, I think by far. I agree. I would like to have seen, I don't know if I would like to have seen

another Zach Snyder movie, honestly. Well, you almost feel like he's like Snyder's muse. So he feels separate from the movie that he's in in a way that I think actually makes me appreciate the performance more. despite the things that don't work in the film. Well, I've thought about this because obviously Christopher Nolan was the executive producer of Man of Steel and of Batman v. Superman, and he introduced Zach Snyder into the DC University, or at least gave him the co-sign to kind of pick up the mantle after Nolan finished his Dark Night trilogy.

But it always felt like Snyder was just kind of waiting to make his Batman movie. And he had to make two Superman movies in a Justice League movie to make his Batman movie, which, you know, I don't even know if he has necessarily said that he wanted to do that. And it's turned out that Ben Affleck was going to make his Batman movie until he decided to step away. So it just felt like Batman was closer to a figure of identity for Snyder than Superman ever was. I always felt like I never understood Zach Snyder's read on Superman. I think it's one of the great misreads of a character in the last 20 years in an American film. A lot of people disagree with me. I know a lot of people love those movies.

I do think he had a really good handle on Bruce. So I agree with you. I think Affleck, in addition to being inspired casting to your point about this idea of living in public and the anxiety that provokes, I think Affleck has always cut a public figure that fits neatly. You know, if you've ever seen Affleck on a talk show, you know that he's incredibly erudite, you know that he is like self-deprecating but also knows he's the man. And he has a kind of an awareness of his place in the world. in the hierarchy, you know, that he is both overdog and underdog, that he has demons, but also is

effortlessly charming. And those are Hallmark qualities of Bruce Wayne. And so he's totally channeling this real life experience. It's really in just never having a chance to see him do genuine Batman stuff that I don't even know how to rate him as a Batman. You know, he really, in

the Justice League film, he's really more of an assembly figure. You know, he's not necessarily someone who is doing the work of Batman. And in Batman v. Superman, of course, he's locked in this kind of back and forth with this alien god. So I just don't know if he's a good Batman. I just don't, I've never seen him crack a case. Again, it's not a storytelling pick for me,

but in terms of just the performance and the character fit, I really love the weariness that he exudes and all of the different ways that that bubbles to the fore. Like even something like his training montage, which I personally appreciate for. for other reasons beyond just thematic ones. What are those reasons? Specifically that he is, you know,

I don't know exercise terms, but doing the thing with the ropes and a lot of abs. It's a great sequence in the film. A lot of abs. A real moment from my life last night when I was reviewing some more scenes of consequence and, you know, pressed for time and trying to find these movies are long.

There's a lot of them. but they are all on HBO Max, which is wonderful, very handy. And I said to, I said to my husband, you know, can you find the, the ab sequence for me? And he did. That's great.

That's true love right there. But then, you know, in that sequence, you're seeing like the scars and the bruises on his body and I think the bail, Batman has a lot of that too. We're over the course of the trilogy, you see the toll,

not only emotionally, mentally, spiritually mounting, but the way that it builds on his body. And that reflects the toll within. So the Affleck character has that, but you just feel in every glance, every breath, every utterance, this interesting brew of ferocity and necessity. This whole existence is oriented around needing to do this thing.

needing to prove something to his self to a city. And then this wait. Like, can I take another step? Can I do this even one more time? And, you know, again, even though I'm very much looking forward to the Patinson year-to upstart Batman on the front end of it all, I find that later stage, Bruce Wayne, Batman experience, really fascinating. it's part of why I love the Dark Knight Returns comic arc so much because Bruce is really old

and has to decide. And of course, that's like older than the Snyderverse Affleck character. But still, like Ben Affleck's Batman has seen some shit. He's been through it. He's lived a lot of years. He's fought in a lot of battles. And you feel that. I like it. That's my pick. you just made me think of a couple of things I'd love to talk about. One, I think I mentioned this to you a couple of weeks ago when we were talking and then Charles Holmes brought it up on the DC, what we would do to rebuild the DC conversation that he and Van had, which is on the one hand,

I think my single favorite comics reading experience. Maybe not my favorite comic book of all time, but my favorite comics reading experience was Alex Ross and Mark Waid's kingdom come, which was a future set DC story in which, you know, the gods, the heroes, the figures of the DC universe are, it feels like decades into the future. And they're sort of waging a war against one another. And Batman in particular is very aged because he's a human man. I think he's wheelchair bound. And he is still in kind of like grudging but dutiful leader assembly mode.

And you see the toll that this life of fighting crime has taken on him, not just physically, but psychologically emotionally. He's a person who's lost a lot and who has gained more power but has also gained more cynicism over time. That to me is the last rich text to explore in the Batman identity. But it's interesting to me

that we're hardly talking about Bale because Bail, of course, is the Batman of the most successful, the most beloved, the most well-known Batman franchise. And here's the thing. Like, have you seen the film Neighbors? I have.

Yeah. So there's this famous moment in neighbors, the first third of the film where Seth Rogan and his wife living in a suburban neighborhood. And there are some new tenants in the house next door. And it turns out that the house next door has been purchased by a fraternity. The fraternity is doing what fraternities do. They're having parties. And so they're having a party. And it's their first night having to deal with the noise from the frat party.

And this young couple decide, you know what we're going to do? We're going to ingratiate ourselves to these folks. We're going to party with them, show them that we're cool, that we can hang. but also let them know, hey, we've got a young baby here. So maybe sometimes keep it down if you could. Obviously, Seth Rogen being Seth Rogen in a movie, gets excited to party with these young people. He gets really drunk, really high.

We find him late at night sitting on a bench outside with Zach Efron's character, who is the leader of this fraternity. And they're having a conversation, and they have one of the greatest generation gap conversations I've ever seen in a movie. And it's when Seth Rogen's character asks Zach Efron's character, who is Batman to you? And Zach Efron and Seth Rogen proceed to do

imitations of their Batman. And for Seth Rogen, it's, I'm Batman. It's Michael Keaton. It's whispery. It's soft. It's mysterious. It's lightly menacing. And for Zach Efron's character,

it's, where is she? Which in all my years of reading Batman comics, I never thought that that's what Batman's voice sounded like. and Christian Bail made a choice in the Batman voice that I still don't understand. I have no idea why he gargled gravel and decided to speak as Batman.

And so that holds him back for me forever. That's a really interesting way of putting it because I think if you asked me who is Batman to me, who is decisively and definitively my Batman, I would definitely pick Christian Bale for sure because, again, Dark Night is my favorite Batman movie. That trilogy collectively,

that's probably where I've spent the most time, I am watching Batman thinking about Batman, definitely a formative Batman experience for me, even more so than the movies that came out when I was a kid. But I just think he's a much better Bruce than he is. Batman. Batman. Let's hear it.

Batman. Bruce, Batman. What's your bail? Give us your bail. Where is she? Rachel. What else does he say is Batman? I'm trying to think of one line of dialogue from Batman begins.

Is Batman Begins good? I don't know, Mel. I like that movie. I watched it again and I was like, Is this really just a jujitsu movie? Is this a Batman movie? I like that movie. There's not enough Batman in this movie.

I enjoy that. And especially graded on the 2021, we've seen so many origin story curves. Hmm. You think it's good. Yeah. Okay. I mean, that's obviously an somewhat unspoken aspect of this conversation thus far. But there's just, how do you do, how are they going to do that in the Batman?

How are they going to? I mean, well, I guess we'll get there. But it just, we've seen that story so many times. You know, we just saw it again in Joker. It's just how many times can we see it? We see it a lot. It's a lot. So, yeah, it's all good points.

I don't know. This was a hard one. Bail is definitely my Batman, but, and even when the athletic casting was announced, I was like, shocked by it. But there's just something about the ingredients, the component parts that I find really interesting, enjoyed watching him. And it felt like he elevated above the movie. so I'm fond of that one, but I don't know.

You could make a lot of different cases here. Is it possible we just have not yet met our perfect Batman? The character has so much weight behind it, and yet unlike Superman, which often pursues non-mega-famous stars, Christopher Reeve, George Reeves, obviously Brandon Routh and Henry Cavill. These were not, the burden of Superman is so profound that you can't cast someone that has baggage.

but Batman, there's an effort to cast a flashy person because he's masked and so you need the power of fame in some ways to kind of sell the movie a little bit or at least that's been the thought. Pattinson being possibly the ultimate example of that. I mean, he brings a lot of cultural baggage

to the table. And I wonder if we just haven't, because they've been unwilling to cast a relative unknown in the part that we haven't yet met our ultimate Batman. Just a thought. That's an interesting point. I mean, I'm sure that we'll get there one day because they're going to keep making Batman movies forever. They sure are. And we'll keep watching them, man.

This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support. millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. The playoffs are here and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul predicts.

Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, wishes, and misses. Predict the spread, the total points, and even the game winner. Sign up for Fandual Predicts and predict it from the cash. Offered by Fandul Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant. 18 plus. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tools. All right. Next category. Best bat chin.

The chin. Crucial. The jawline, the mouth, the lips, the nostrils, the nose casing on the cowl, all of it. But the chin is the crux of it. What's your pick? This has to be unanimous here. I mean, one of the great cinema chins of recent memory belongs to Ben Affleck, of course. I will say, I shocked myself a bit by not picking Clooney here, but it is Affleck.

And not only because of the structure of the chin and the jawline, but the perfect dusting of stubble, magnificent. You've always been a stubble gal. It's true. It's true. What about bat suit? Best bat suit. It's part of why we're here today. The glimpses of the bat suit,

sparking so much chatter and conversation. Where is this chatter? Where is this chatter you refer to? Where are you going for your chatter? This chatter is, I would say, in Slack, in the ringer verse slack. Okay. And, you know, out there on the internet, man.

Okay. Cool. I'm stuck in my house, so I'm not seeing any of that. There's no better time to explore the internet than when you're stuck in your house. So I want to talk about Batman Returns because Batman Returns is going to take a couple of categories here for me as we get a little further into the conversation. Batman Returns might be my second favorite Batman movie. Can I tell you that this movie used to startle me when I was a child? Spooked me a little bit.

Found the penguin very upsetting. He remains very upsetting. That's one of the few things I think that has aged as scarily. as anything in the movie. During quarantine, my wife and I returned to the original Tim Burton Batman for the first time in a while. And we watched it together.

I don't even necessarily know why she decided to watch it with me, but we'll watch it together. About halfway through the movie, she was like, this movie is not as scary as I remember. Nicholson is kind of ridiculous. And there's something very arch about this. And it doesn't seem, it seems more like a painting

than it does, like a movie. And I thought that was perceptive. Art does play a, central role in that movie. It really does. I love Nicholson. He's one of my three or four favorite actors of all time. I think he's phenomenal in The Joker,

even though he's not necessarily doing the Joker. He's doing something else. He's doing Nicholson as the Joker. Batman Returns takes itself a little bit more seriously, but while being simultaneous a little bit more absurd, and we talked about movie influences before and what movies inspired Fantasim. Batman Returns is German Expressionist Cinema.

It is a movie that is very much in doubt and indebted to, you know, the Fritz-Long films and F.W. Murnau and Nosephiratu and to the point of Max Schreck's character being named after a famed German actor. And it's a movie that has incredible, extraordinary production design, singular production design. and the suit and the Batmobile and the way that Gotham is drawn, all of the other costumes, the way the penguin is created and shaped. You know, and obviously Danny DeVito

receives a lot of credit for absolutely going for it and Michelle Pfeiffer is absolutely going for it and Christopher Walken is absolutely going for it in this movie. It's part of what makes it so fun. But it doesn't work if it doesn't live inside this world.

And the suit is one more part of that. The suit in Batman Returns is a very small but crucial evolution, I think, from the first Batman suit. And I've always been a fan of that yellow on the crest. I feel like that yellow, that little pop of color, which they basically abandoned since Batman Returns, has been signature. You know, it's a reflection of the Batman signal, of the light. And, you know, that light is still a big part of the storytelling in the Batman films that come. But that yellow has all that vanished. So again, in the same way that I love Keaton in the original,

I love the way the suit looks in Batman Returns. Do you enjoy the sequence where we see a back cave closet full of identical? It also looks a lot like my closet, which is just full of differently colored Oxford buttoned out shirts and jeans. Exactly. That is part of what I love about that. It's like, oh, he's going to work. Yeah. Yeah, I'm a uniform man, you know, if you're a uniform man.

I also like there's a great sequence where at the end of the film when Batman is revealing to Selena Kyle Catwoman that he's persuading, which, you know, these are two people who've like made out. Okay, I'm getting too far, but let me just say quickly. So Batman rips his mask off and the latex tears beautifully in a way that I never imagined it could. Beautifully. I love how it just rips off and reveals his face. I'm going to go with nonsensically. That part always bugs me. Oh, okay.

I enjoy it. That should not happen. It's a dramatic. reveal. He has a secret. Mal, let me just ask you something that's going to seem intimate, but I'm asking for a reason. You've kissed a human being before, right? You've kissed a person on the mouth.

Yeah. Amazingly, I have. It's not meant to insult you in any way. I have as well. I have kissed a person. When you kiss a person, when you're that intimate with someone, when you're that close to someone, it's not just what they look like, though what they look like matters. It's what they smell like.

It's what they feel like. It's the texture of their person. It's all of that stuff. The idea of Selena Kyle and Bruce Wayne being this close to each other, face to face, nose to nose, mouth to mouth, and then still dressing up as characters and not knowing who the other is,

just absurd to me. I still can't get over it. I know this is superhero suspension of disbelief stuff, but it's absurd. You've got to occasionally repeat lines to each other about mistletoe before you have that breakthrough. All right?

What's your favorite bat suit? This is perhaps more of a hopeful pick, but I'm going to go with premature though it may be the suit from the Batman. I like the homemade look and feel of it so far. I think that it seems very much

like built to align with the place in the timeline and the place in Bruce and Batman's arc this year to focus. I'm putting it all together myself. And, you know, everything that we've seen so far fits into that and the aesthetic reinforcing the theme in that way, something that I enjoy. The idea of the bat symbol and the chest plate perhaps being made from the gun, I mean, this has again been,

you know, an internet theory for quite some time now since the first image is surfaced. Who knows? But I think that that if that is the case and other aspects of the suit also reinforced that, the pieces of Bruce's life, the pieces of his motivation, the fuel for his vengeance, like his person actually embodying that, I think would be really, really cool. It has a slightly heavier, heftier look than what I typically am drawn to in a bat suit. So that's the counterpoint. I like a sleeker bat suit. And I do tend to like the monochrome a little bit more, though your point about the burst of yellow is a nice one. But I just think that that looks like it's going to be a neat one.

So I'm excited to see that in full glory and full action. I do think that, though, because we're on the topic of batsuits here, we absolutely have to spend at least one minute here talking about the bat nipples. We have to. Okay. What would you like to say about them? One of the great missteps in cinematic history. Fair?

Well, think of it this way. If the movie were better, it wouldn't be a thing. If the movie were good, it would have been a cute, trivia note in an episode of the rewatchables because it's a movie that would have been worthy of the rewatchables. But because the movie is disastrous, it feels symptomatic of some of the poor decision making. We all have nipples, you know? What do you want me to say? Batman has nipples. Deal with it, Mal. But he's, he's not nude. He's wearing an outfit. And so, maybe he has abnormally sized nipples that need to be supported by latex. Have you considered that?

Let's stop nipple shaming. No, no nipple shaming. I say, don't include them or go all the way, you know? And these are, these, so we get the, we get the bat nipples in Batman Forever and Batman. I don't even know how to describe the sequences that we get of the suiting up, the close up shots of various body parts and limbs and ass cheeks. It's all quite, quite surreal and quite strange. There should not be. be nipples on the outside of the suit unless everything is on the outside of the suit, Sean. So give me an anatomically correct bat dick

if we're going to get the bat nipples. Otherwise, don't put the bat nipples there. That's all. I mean, sold. Let's call Matt Reeves. Oh, God. All right, best Batmobile. I'm running it back.

Batman returns, I think similarly. The very, speaking of bat dicks, this is a very dick-shaped batmobile, as I recall. Very narrow, very fallic. Entering in odd and tight spaces. I just think it's just a very cool looking car. It's a car that looks like Fritz Long designed it.

It even has the shield, you know, the sheath. What is that supposed to be representative of? Well, if you're saying that it's a fallace, then, you know, protection. Does Bruce Wayne use protection, you think? Bruce Wayne, contraceptive method of choice. I feel like Bruce Wayne might be a pullout guy. I agree with you. Yeah.

Yeah. He's, safety is not really one of his, his skills, his hallmarks. So I'm with you on that. Nevertheless, let's go back to speaking about this vehicle. I think it's a sleek car. I think in the same way that I'm not in love with a lot of the bat suits that look like military gear. You know, a lot of the batsuits have started to evolve into this kind of like heavyweight, you know, you know, he looks ready for Kabul, Afghanistan. He doesn't look ready to fight on the streets of a city.

And, you know, Batman's origins, he's wearing a leotard. You know, he's wearing a skin tight suit swinging through Gotham. So the heavier his suit gets, the less interesting it gets to me personally. And I feel similarly with, you know, and you may disagree, but I don't want an all-terrain military vehicle for my Batmobile. I like something a little bit more sleek. So I actually do agree with you. And I think my pick would be the Batman Returns, Batmobile as well. But for the sake of variance inside of this category, because there are so many Batmobiles,

I'll pick the Tumblr from the Dark Night trilogy with a caveat, which is the thing you just said. The heavy, literalized military industrial complex of the Tumblr is not necessarily the Batman. vibe that I typically gravitate toward, but I really like the functionality that we've traded. You know, it's not the sexy sleek machine, but it's highly functional. It does a lot. You know, the rampless jumps, the bridge tech stealth mode

with the Tumblr, very cool. And then I think the thing I like the best about it is that it ejects the bat. pod, which is dope. I love the bat pod. I love seeing Batman on the Bat Pod. I love getting to see Anne Hathaway's Catwoman on the Bat Pod.

I love the Bat Pod. It's awesome. I think it's the Batmobile that makes the most sense in the Dark Night Rises when this sort of like military incursion led by Bain dominates the story. It feels like it fits most clearly. I don't dislike

that. It's not my preferred mode of transportation for Batman. Where does the Batmobile go? It goes into and out of the Batcave. And we have seen so many Bat Caves. Bats Cave over the year. It's a... Bats Cave?

It's like, you know, RBI's R-GBI. Anyway, just a little joke for you. Do you have a favorite Bat Caves? Do you have one that you'd like to spend time in? Do you have one that you think I'd never want to... I'd never want to go in there, but boy, does it look cool on my screen? Not a cave guy, you know? not really one of my preferred hangout areas.

The one Batman Forever thing that I really like is the cave. Because the cave, this is the first cave that has massive scale, almost like the series of pillars. And I don't know where this cave is oriented. You know, I don't know if Wayne Manor is like, has it been built on the cliff of a canyon? Like how, where does this cave structure? I mean, you know, is it, is it proxious?

If Gotham is meant to be New York City, is it proximate to where to the Adirondacks? Like, what are we looking at here? It's one of the jokes in the Lego movie that I really like, which is obviously literally a reference to how Legos are built. You know, you build the blocks and the planks. But then that comment about how Gotham is basically resting on top of nothing, which I always took to be a commentary on these vast caverns beneath everyone. It's pretty confusing.

But you do get in Batman forever. You do get that incredible moment where, um, Chris O'Donnell's character, his Robin, kind of falls down a stairwell and falls down another stairwell and essentially swings his way into the Batcave accidentally. And the Batmobiles revealed to him and it has that sort of 360 spin where it's on a kind of a platform. And it's shown in all of its glory.

It's sort of like the Batman Forever Batmobile is kind of like an exoskeleton Batman Batman? Batmobile? It's a very strange car. That's a good cave. I'm going with Batman Returns, which I think is actually quite vast than Cavernous, has a lot of scale.

It does actually feel like a cave. It does feel like a cave. A requirement for a good bag cave. Yeah, it's really cool. And some of it is disorienting, like the staging and the placement. Like, would

Bruce have a desk and a computer set up right on the lip of a cliff like that, but in a way that's fun to watch and really places him firmly in this pit that reinforces who he is and the choices that he's made. So I love that one. I didn't want to pick too many things from Lego Batman, but that is also an awesome, awesome backing. All right, this is a big one. So big in fact that we're going to have to divide this into two subcategories. The category is best bat villain. The Rokes Gallery, one of the most iconic things about Batman and Batman stories. We're dividing this into two parts. The first part is best Joker division, because I assumed that we would both

both pick Joker. And then the second subcategory here is best non-joker division. So let's do Joker first. I assume we have the same pick here. But perhaps we have different, I also want to mention actor X? We do. And I'll start with my, I also want to mention actor X before giving my pick. I mentioned Nicholson earlier

in the original Batman. You can't overstate what a big deal this was that Jack Nicholson was cast as the Joker. In 1990, there was no bigger movie star than Jack Nicholson.

There was no more iconic figure coming out of the new Hollywood. There was no figure more thought of as a real life Joker than Jack Nicholson. He was thought in many ways to be perfectly cast.

He plays the role maybe a little bit differently than I would have wanted him to. He's not always as menacing, and Tim Burton doesn't always let him be as authentically chaotic and scary as you want him to be. There's something naturally Nicholsonian and over the top about it. My favorite moment, my favorite line reading in all of the Burton movies is near the end of the film when there's the big parade in downtown Gotham. And Nicholson says, he stole my balloons! It's just hilarious, great stuff. So I like Nicholson. I think he's really fun.

There have obviously been a lot of good jokers, and there's been one very bad Joker, which is Jared Leto, which I don't want to talk about. But of course, my pick has to be Heath Ledger, who gives not only one of the best Batman movie performances,

not only one of the best comic book movie performances, but really one of the best movie performances, I think ever, honestly. I think it's one of the most captivating and fully realized executions of the character, especially a character with a lot of baggage, you know,

a reimagined, but also a fealty to the ideas and the psychology of that character. And obviously, Ledger died tragically and we lost a lot of, lost the chance to see him in a lot of great films in the future. But this is a fascinating and kind of heartbreaking legacy for him because of what that character represents and how we can, I think we could carelessly conflate some of the ideas in the Joker character and in Ledger and the choices he makes in his life. And I don't want to do that. but it does add this additional gravitas to the performance that I think probably makes him the Joker really for all times. I think as long as people are seeing the Dark Night, he's going to have that mantle,

which is not to say that other people can't play that character or that they shouldn't. They should. The Joker is very similar to Batman, kind of ever replenishing. But Ledger is just so powerful, so and so purely charitimately, magnetically entertaining. You know, you cannot take your eyes off of him in this movie. So that's my pick. I assume he's your pick as well. Yes.

Ledger's Joker is also my pick. Overuse the word, but warranted here, an iconic performance, really, in Alzheimer's. And it's so menacing, so anchored in this disturbed, deeply disturbed existence and pathology. Never tire of watching it. I do want to shout out, though, Mark Hamill, who not only voices The Joker in Mask of the Fantasim, which we've talked about already today, but across many, many, many animated renderings of the character

in the animated series, other film adaptations, he voices the Joker and the video games are so many different places that you can hear Mark Hamill's Joker. and I think for many people, Mark Hamill's Joker is their Joker. I think about, I'm a huge Star Wars fan, Sean. I'm not sure if you know this. And as I have mentioned often

on the Ringer podcast network, the Clone Wars, rebels, the animated Star Wars stories are some of my favorite Star Wars stories. And I love them so much and I've watched them so much that's gotten to the point

where animated Anakin from the Clone Wars is my Anakin. And I think a lot of people, Now, of course, the difference is that that's maybe because you watch the prequels and there's not an Anakin that you're drawn to there necessarily. That is not the case in the Batman live action verse where you have two Oscar winning performances among the consideration set.

But Hamill is absolutely phenomenal as Joker. And if anybody listening has not heard him, but please check it out. It's such a treat. So I love Hamill as well. I think the thing that Hamill does better than anybody is he captures the gleefulness of Joker. Oh, the laugh. The laugh. And the sort of the sense of joy that battling and outsmarting Batman that he derives is really what's great about Hamill.

And Hamel, you know, if you've ever seen a video of Hamill giving the performance, you can see him transforming. You know, it's a true performance. and he is his body contorts and his face twists and he looks like the Joker when he's giving that performance. I just think the challenge of an animated film or an animated TV series is it just can never be as brutal as the Joker really is, especially the Joker in the best Joker stories

is incredibly violent and dangerous. And chaos isn't just an idea. It's something that he inflicts upon Gotham on Batman on the world. And, you know, you were, you were imitating it earlier, but they'll, like, they hit me, you know, like, I want you to do it. I want you to do it. The sense that, like, he is, Ledger is, like, is spooling out of control is, is profound

to me. It's not just fun. It's, like, it is tapping into something that is, that is beyond even the conception of the character. So I love Ledger. I love Hamel. I really like all the Joker's, except for Leto. I think the Joker is just a marvelous character.

Yeah, the role definitely. brings out a lot of indelible performances, but I think we agree that Ledgers is the most indelible of all. All right, what about non-joker division? No shortage of contenders here.

So, I thought about Bain because I think Hardy was after something that was pretty exciting. And also, Batman's back is broken was a storyline

in the comic books right when I was coming of age that was very active. It was, you know, the sort of Batman has his back broken, Superman is killed, those two arcs were launched in my teen years and very informative for me,

or very sort of instructive for me about what you can do to heroic characters, like how you don't have to, they don't have to win the day every day. And I like Hardy's sense of pure physical rage and control that he wages on Batman, but I ultimately went with Michelle Pfeiffer's Cowellman. Because, well, Michelle Pfeiffer is the most perfectly cast person in any Batman movie.

She has this extraordinary ability to do two things that Selena Kyle can be. I mentioned that, you know, the Batman Returns films looks like is sort of German expressionist inspired. It is also noir-inspired. And she has kind of the daffy

screwball, secretary Selina Kyle character down Pat. It's a very funny neurotic performance. And she also has this incredibly commanding certainly sensual,

perhaps even sexual, perhaps even sexually dominant. Perhaps, Sean, one of the lines in this movie is Penguin walking up, seeing her stretched out on his bed and saying just the pussy I've been looking for.

That's a line in this movie. Yeah, they had some fun with that one. They seem to have a lot of fun. was Batman returns rated R? It probably should have been. I mean, there are scenes where it sits pushing NC17. Certainly wants to be pushing NC17. There's a great behind the scenes of video

that you could probably find on Twitter, maybe on YouTube, of Michelle Pfeiffer during the sequence in which she enters the department store with her whip, and she is whipping off the heads of mannequins. And we see that she did that for real. In one take, she knocked three heads off of mannequins with her whip. And so she was well trained and performed brilliantly in this movie. And also, I mean, Michelle Pfeiffer is just beautiful.

She's just captivating. And she's a perfect foil for Bruce Wayne in that movie. So I'm going Catwoman. Yeah. She's an all-timer, obviously. I think Catwoman's interesting, more broadly, inside of the Batman Rokes Gallery consideration set, because not now the, the, the, you specified, obviously, specific rendering of the character, but broadly, not necessarily a pure villain, right?

More of an anti-hero, kind of weaving in and out. I'm curious to see what version of the character we get in the upcoming The Batman film, Selena Kyle Catwoman, played by Zoe Kravitz, one of my absolute faves. So I'm so excited for that. And based on what we've seen so far, there was a little behind the scenes kind of half trailer, half making of that centered on her character and the idea of, you know, fighting for people who can't fight for themselves and that the aspects of that character that simultaneously create clear parallels to Bruce, but sometimes put them on an oppositional

course. It's always interesting. It seems like she is playing more of the anti-hero, Zoe Kravitz. I would say that Michelle Pfeiffer, even though they're locked in this kind of love affair, she's pretty clearly a villain. She's wreaking havoc on Gotham and, you know, teeming up at a certain point

with the penguin. The Zoe Kravitz figure seems like she's, there seems to be a partnership brewing there. I hope so. I'm picking the League of Shadows. This is a little bit of a cheat,

okay, but I'm picking the League of Shadows in the Nolanverse because I like the connective tissue established across the trilogy. Obviously, the League of Shadow and Rosal Ghoul, central to the first movie, Batman begins, but continues to manifest through other characters in this quest to burn Gotham to the ashes

so that it can rise and build into the sacred quest at the heart of the league's ambition. You're connecting to characters like Scarecrow, and then obviously later Bain, Talia, all of them are connected to this plot that sprawls across the trilogy in a way that I think helps to really unite those films and I quite enjoy. It's a great pick. I do remember the reveal of Razel Gould and Nissen, which is like telegraphed pretty clearly, but is still kind of wonderful. I think

cast and Ken Watanabe and seeing Ken Watanabe with like one line of dialogue at the beginning of the movie is one of the great feints, I think, in Nolan movies. You know, Talia stabbing Batman after, you know, while revealing that she is Talia is, is, is, is, is, is, arguably the best moment in that movie, yeah. That's a, it's a, that's a, that's a great moment. I love it. You mentioned Bain and considering picking Bain. I have a Bain pick coming up here in our next category. Best catchphrase or a line. Tons of choices here. Yeah, I went with a fairly obvious one, but one that I feel like resonates to this very day, which is you either die.

hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain, which, of course, Harvey shares that and then lives his fate, lives his axiom. And I think in addition to it becoming a meme, it's, it's profound, you know, I'm certainly worried about that myself, you know, everyone's the hero of their own story until they make a couple of stupid choices. So I think there's something resonant and fun about that one, but there are, as you said, dozens to choose from. What'd you go with? I went with a Bain gem. You have my permission to die. This is such a great line. There are a couple things I like about it. One, great line on its own. Two, it is the culminating line in a terrifying and excellent villainous speech from Bain to Bruce in the pit after Bain has broken.

Bruce's back, broken Batman's back. And then it resurfaces the end of the film in the climactic showdown when Bruce says, tell me where the trigger is. Then you have my permission to die. Tell me where the trigger is. But that whole Bain speech in the pit, I mean, it's very long.

So I won't read it at all, but it's movie villain gold. It's so good. I learned here that there can be no true despair without hope. Love that line. That part of the speech, you know what that makes me think of? First Reformed. Because one of the things that I love best about First Reformed, other than pouring digestive aids into whiskey.

And the excellent Ethan Hawk performance is the positioning of hope and despair as inextricable ideas that inform each other and have to exist in the human mind at the same time. that Bain speech, man, when you have truly understood the depth of your failure, we will fulfill Razagool's destiny, we will destroy Gotham. And then when it is done and Gotham is ashes, then you have my permission to die. And of course, part of what makes it so memorable is that the entire movie you can barely understand a single thing that Hardy's Bain is saying. You really got to lean in and work for it. And so there's no encoding failure as if you were in a listener when you're watching Bain.

You're either missing it entirely because you cannot decipher it or you are actively viewing so fully that it just embeds itself in you forever. I'm impressed by your restraint to not do the hearty Bain voice because that's all I really want to do. I wish Chris Ryan or even Robert Maze was here. Robert Maze is one of the great progenitors of the Bain voice. But, you know, for Raja Bledo's destiny, you know, his enunciation.

Of your body. of your soul. That's not very good, Mel. I think, you know, a closer runner up for me, too, is also a bane quote, which is a similarly iconic quote from the Dark Night Rises, which is you merely adopted the dark.

I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man. Let's move right to our next category because I think we have the same pick for this one, and that quote is uttered in the scene that we're going to choose. Best bat fight. We both picked.

Batman versus Bain, Bain breaking Batman's back, the iconic Nightfall Comics line come to the screen. Unbelievable five-five-ish minute sequence where you're just watching Bain annihilate Batman, completely dominate and overpower him underneath, not only the city that Bruce is trying to protect, but literally under his armory. He is right beneath his nose. and Bruce had no idea led there as well by Selena. So there's the deception, try to trust and look what happens. The actual moment, the backbreaking moment, an all-timer. I mean, it's just an all-time movie moment.

It's so good. But to your point, one of the things that really elevates that scene is Bain's dialogue, which is incredible. Interesting that we both chose a sequence in which Batman gets nary a shot in. You know, he really does not stand a chance. Why do we fall, Sean? You know? It's one of the questions at the heart of these stories. Yeah, it's funny.

There's not as many great fight sequences as you might imagine because Batman is one of the great hand-to-hand combat heroes. And I don't think that the films have necessarily always been great at that. You know, close action is a complicated thing, I think, for Nolan. It was not Burton's forte. We'll see what Matt Reeves does. Matt Reeves, I thought, was pretty good at action sequences throughout the Planet of the Apes films. and I'm hopeful that

and we got one glimpse of Patinson laying waste to a thug in the streets in the trailer for that for the Batman. So I'm hopeful there but that you know, Bain's dominance.

If you knew the Bain storyline, if you knew the backbreaking storyline, it was a high bar. And from the opening plane sequence, which is unintelligible, but also really thrilling through the backbreaking sequence, Bain really lives up.

I think he kind of, falls apart pretty quickly after that in terms of what it is he's after philosophically, what it is the League of Shadows Wands, how he fits into the storyline. But through that first hour or so, he is thrilling. I mean, Bain as Poison Ivy's semi-muttering muscle is like one of the great disappointments. It is. So it's such a joy to see this fully realized version. I was wondering what would break first your spirit or your body crunch? Holy fuck. Chills.

He says cost you your strength. So good. Do you feel in charge? He has so many great lines. You have a very like cheerful chipper being an impression there. Because he has kind of, we will fulfill Rosel Gould's destiny. You know, he has a kind of like spirited. There's something that's.

Yeah, like almost perversely erotic. I mean, much like with the Joker, actually, you know, there's, there's, there's joy for them in the, in the reckoning. Speaking of joy. Best love interest. I went Miranda Tate slash Talia Aalekul. Okay. I think that speaks more to two things. One, you took my pick.

So I'd like to keep this an understanding podcast. Two, I think that Batman has been ill-served, I think, throughout many of these films because these, the female counterparts have not been very well written. I think I could have chosen Michelle Pfeiffer's catwoman here. I would have liked to have seen more of Anne Hathaway's catwoman. I would have liked to have seen more of Ann Hathaway just than anything. I'm a huge Anne Hathaway fan. But Miranda Tate, I think very similarly follows, another dame, if you will, another femme fatal. Batman is always getting insorseled by femme fatals.

And she's among the best and also among the most powerful. So I went with her. It's a good pick. I picked Andrea from Mask of the Fantanels. My queen. Absolutely elite. And to the point you just made about many of these characters being quite one-dimensional, this is a fully realized, fleshed-out character who is core to every aspect of the story

is, is Bruce's love interest, but is not only Bruce's love interest. unlocks a lot about how we think about growth and evolution, the role that family plays, the choices that you make, identity, purpose, conviction, deceit, all of it stitches together in her character. And in case people haven't seen it, I won't spoil it, but their relationship in the way that it unspools and what we learn about her and the years of their lives that have transpired together and then apart and how they have to reconcile all of that when they come together again. It's one of the things I love most in a Batman movie, you know, seeing them come together, Sean?

I'm not, I'm not touching that one. All right. Best bat sidekick. And you can interpret this in any way. I went with Lucius Fox because I'm not a Robin guy. So I think of Lucius as the cue

of the Batman universe from the James Bond films as the gadget man, as the information gatherer, as the person who can help Batman become what he needs to become. Now, obviously, Alfred

is numerous uno in that respect. And we'll talk about Alfred in the second, but I like what Lucius Fox, especially Lucius Fox's ability to foresee our hacking technocracy culture.

You know, that's maybe something that hasn't necessarily aged well, but it's also, it reveals like the potential conflict of the coming telephonic observation that I think our government and other world governments have enacted across all of its citizenry.

So I'm going with Fox. And also put Morgan Freeman in a movie. Morgan Freeman is just wonderful actor. I love, I love Lucius. I love that character so much. I'm going with, for the sake of variance within the category, Michael Sarah's Dick Grayson. Robin from the Lego Batman movie,

who is so darling and so precious and who I absolutely adore. I got no beef with this. Wonderful, wonderful rendition of Robin. So sweet. I do just want to say that Chris O'Donnell, as Robin, one of the formative crushes of my youth, I just feel compelled to mention that. How do you feel about O'Donnell now? You know, I often see commercials for his procedurals.

It seems like he's doing great. A lot of people watch NCIS, right? Chris O'Donnell is probably doing very well. Not a very good actor, in my opinion. Sorry to say. Handsome. Best Alfred, because we needed to think. give Alfred a standalone category here, separate from the sidekick question. Alfred, a through

line. Yeah, essential, essential figure in the Batman story. I got, I have one quick, Alfred question, which is, was it in the Wayne's will that Alfred would take over parentage of Bruce? Like, in what universe does the butler receive custody in the event of a tragic double murder? Is that common? not a part of that class, so I don't know. I'm not super familiar with like a state law. Okay. My favorite Alfred is definitely Michael Kane.

Michael Kane is one of the great movie presences of our time. Once upon a time, Michael Kane would have made an interesting Batman, I think, in the late 60s or early 70s. You know, what would you have me do, Alfred? Endure. Master Wayne is like a iconic moment. Yeah. You know, a man who just wants to watch the world burn and that whole story that he tells

in the Dark Night and sort of explaining the ethos of the Joker, I think is like one of the great scenes in that film as well. So I love Kane. I'm going Kane. The cafe set up and payoff in Dark Night Rise is also wonderful. The clear pick. Let me just throw this out there as a consideration. Jeremy Irons is a good Alfred.

Yeah, I agree. A fun one. And I'm glad that you just said Michael King in another world, another time, could have been Batman because that's one of the things that I'd love. about watching Jeremy Irons and Ben Affleck in their scenes together. It's like they almost feel like, I don't want to say peers, but more like peers than I raised you and have cared for you since you were falling into pits when you were a wee tot.

And there's kind of like a sexiness to this outfit that I love. So I think that's a really fun. trail, but obviously Michael Cain is the, I think, iconic Alfred for people our age. We do have to shout out, though, like the Lifetime Achievement Award for Michael Goff. Michael Goff. Alfred in four movies. Yeah, he was. He was. He was good. He was a good, he was a good Alfred. You know what I love about his Alfred. I mean, he's mostly very sweet, almost like a little saccharine and then occasionally, you know, very, very deep, very insightful about the nature of life. connection, those moments with Clooney's Bruce in particular in that respect. He kind of like invents AI. I was going to kick out of this.

We're watching this movie. Simultaneously possesses the tech savvy prowess to upload his consciousness into a computer, but then also uses peg as a password. So that's all very confusing and strange. Shades of Ultron there, by the way. Haven't heard him sing Pinocchio's, no strings yet, but I could see it. One of these super weird things rewatching those four movies is that his Alfred is consistently either revealing Bruce's identity to people or encouraging him to do so. Basically constantly.

Really weird. It's really bizarre. Before we conclude here by assessing this tapestry of our bat proletives, to look ahead to what we hope to see out of the Batman. I'm curious, even though we're largely focused on films today, if you have a favorite comic arc, and if that has any bearing on what you look for in a Batman movie. Well, the latter question's really interesting.

I do have a few favorites. I mentioned Kingdomcom, which is not exclusively a Batman story, of course. I revisited the killing joke last night to prepare for this, because I love the killing joke. And the killing joke, I think, has come under fire in recent years for being considered a bit misogynist or exploitative of the Barbara Gordon character. And I think that is true.

I do think it was also honestly representative of its time. It was written in 1988. It was written by Alan Moore, of course, one of the great brutalist poets of comic book storytelling. And that is a relentless kind of story about the cruelty of the Joker. And also, like, marvelous, marvelously illustrated

story as well. One other one that I really like and that I think is going to be pretty important potentially for the Batman

is the long Halloween, which is one as a Jeff Lowe book. It was a mid-90s book, I believe. Similarly, it was released

like when I was kind of in the throes of reading a lot of comics and speaks clearly, I think, to kind of the menagerie of villains,

very two-faced, very Joker-centric. And it seems like that's a little bit of the tone that they're going for with the Batman. It's early days Batman. It's not year one. It's not even year two, but it is early days Batman. It's a bit about the relationship between Gordon and Batman and how they kind of reach, they reach a kind of collaboration, not a piece because year one is about them reaching a piece, but the long Halloween is about them kind of

collaborating. And normally I would just go with the killing joke. That would be my pick. But I now really want to return to the long Halloween and see if I like it. as much as I did when I was 14. What about for you? You mentioned a lot of the ones that I considered. Considered the long Halloween, considered the killing joke, considered year one,

considered a death in the family. I mean, there are so many essential Batman stories. I ultimately picked one that I've actually mentioned a few times already today, which is Frank Miller's Batman the Dark Night returns from 86. Unbelievable story. That older, not only seasoned, but utterly beleaguered Bruce Wayne,

inserting himself anew, not only into society, but into this kind of life. Fascinating. That's so good in the style, the role that media and mass consumption, with the panels, and constantly hearing from the TV anchors,

seeing the news interspersed with the prime story that we're watching unfold. It's just really smart and, quite insightful and powerful. I love that one. I would recommend it. And it's an interesting one, I think, to raise here because it is at the, you know, the tail end of a Batman life painfully and challengingly lived, which is the other end of the spectrum from Matt Reeves' The Batman, set in the early days this year two time on Earth too. So with everything that we've talked about today, all of the things that stand out for you from Batman films past as highlights, as even

essential ingredients to the kind of Batman story that you want to see. I have two main questions. One, which we got into a bit earlier, you know, whether it's something like the repeating origin of story factor, the need to always revisit Bruce losing his parents, the multiverse in DC films right now, and all of these different stories and Earths and times. lines and Batman's playing out either at once or near each other. Do you have any concerns about that? Or are you still firmly in a, I want more Batman and I want it as often as they'll give it to me, camp.

And then what do you want to see from this movie? What are you most excited about? Maybe we'll each do a top three for this impending film. Well, I don't think you can enter into it with any sense of anxiety because, as you said, they're going to just keep making these stories no matter what. I was happy to see that they were entrusting the story with someone who had a real authentic interest in what is interesting to me about the story. The idea of this detective guy who is very tortured, who has a lot of means at his disposal

and is using those means to not just try to save and protect people, but also to try figure out something inside of himself. It's as much an inward story as it is an outward story, and it seems like Reeves is very interested in that. But he's also very interested in the nature of crime, at least based on what we've heard about the story. I think that's probably an unexplored aspect. There's always this, there's a pursuit of duality, or there's a pursuit of a kind of torture and violence, but there's never, not often in Batman movies, an exploration of why people do bad things. And Joker, in fact, often kind of sloughs off that idea. Joker says, chaos reigns, you know,

Life is meaningless. Everything is, the cynical heart pumps throughout this city, and I'm going to exploit that. And Batman's origins are really about criminals and the mob and what leads people to make some of those choices. And I think by choosing the Riddler as the primary antagonist, and it seems like he is, we're going to get really what David Fincher likes to do, you know, which is really what I love, which is explore what's really going on in people's hearts and why they do terrible things. and why the people who seem good are not always as good as they seem, and the people who seem bad, maybe deserve a little bit more understanding and not necessarily empathy, but understanding.

And so I'm excited about that. I don't want to see Ma'n Pa Wayne murdered in the street. I really just don't think they need to do that for a variety of reasons. But otherwise... A close up of the pearl necklace. Yeah. Very quickly to your point about the DCEU stuff, I don't think it's such a bad thing

that their worlds are all fractured and that this is an Earth 2 story. I don't think that I'm not as hung up on that anxiety. I think the problem is it never felt like there was a plan. And that's something that Van and Charles talked about on their episode about DC. It never seemed like there was someone in charge

who said, here's how we're going to do it. I actually got most excited by DC when the Aquaman movie came out because it was not that there was or was not interconnectivity between those stories. It was that there could be different tones that they could tell different kinds of stories. And Aquaman being this kind of goofball,

you know, majestic fantasy story underwater was exciting to me and showed me that it didn't just have to be this Snyder-Versian thing. And I feel similarly to this. This is a different kind of a Batman story, at least it seems like it's going to be, and I'm excited about that.

Yeah, and I'm not hung up on that either. In part, I think, because multiple worlds, multiple versions of a character, multiple timelines, storylines. It's so familiar to comic book readers, right? It's just an inextricable part of a comic book universe and storytelling experience.

I think also that the introduction of more variables while potentially compounding the, okay, well, how do all these things fit together, the volatility of the DC universe, the flip side is that it's actually an on-ramp then to another realm that can potentially feel really cohesive and really expertly realized. So I'm looking forward to that quite a bit. I agree with what you said about the detective noir aspect, which is clearly central to how Reeves is crafting the movie. I mean,

there's a Hollywood reporter quote from a Leslie Goldberg interview that he did back in 2019, where he just sketches it out in full. It's very much. a point of view driven noir Batman tale, Reeve said. It's sold very squarely on his shoulders, and I hope it's going to be a story that will be thrilling, but also emotional. It's more Batman in his detective mode than we've seen in the films. The comics have a history of that. He's supposed to be the world's greatest detective. And that's not necessarily been a part of what the movies have been. I'd love this to be one where we go on that journey of tracking down the criminals and trying to solve a crime. It's going to allow his character to have an arc so that he can go

through a transformation. That sounds great. And you're doing that with Pattinson, And Zoe Kravitz and Paul Dano and Colin Farrell and Jeffrey Wright, a great cast. That sounds awesome. I think there's also just a lot of artisans and crafts people working on this movie that has me pretty excited for it. You've got Greg Frazier shooting the movie. This is the same person who shot Zero Dark 30, who shot Rogue One, who shot Deneve's upcoming Dune. Love Rogue One. Oh, Dune. I can't wait for Dune.

I do as well. So you're talking about a person who has been able to do grounded, shoot grounded stories like Foxcatcher or The Gambler, but also shoot Rogue One or Dune, which is a, good sign, I think, for Batman, which really feels like a fusion of those two things. I think if you're going to, if you can capture the tone of zero dark 30 and Dune and smash them together, you might have a pretty intoxicating crime story. I think you've also got Michael Giacchino as the composer. He of the famed up score. I don't think this is going to sound very much like up, but the Batman scores over the years,

of course, Hans Zimmer and of course, Danny Elfman are legendary. and the music, of course, in the Batman animated series is also terrific. So high bar there, but Michael Giacchino is brilliant. Murr's row of supporting actors. You know, Jeffrey Wright as Gordon, you've got Sarsgaard as the Gotham DA, Andy Circus as Alfred,

Colin Farrell playing the Penguin. This is a pretty Barry Keowen, who I think is going to turn out to be, it seems like, the villain in Eternals, by the way, is now also appearing here as a police officer in Gotham. So he's really brilliant. the DC Marvel Gap. So there's just a lot of people involved in this movie

that has me really excited. Yeah, it's an incredible cast. I can't wait. I think the things that I'm most looking forward to are the year two upstart detective, homemade Batman at the outset of this life noir vibes that we've already talked about. You know, even though my favorite comic pick leaned old,

I think that origin with a twist vibe really appeals to me. As mentioned, the cast in general, but I just love Zoe Kravitz so much. I'm really excited for her. Selina Kyle. It's just going to be amazing. Suspect that there will be ample chemistry between Zoe Kravitz and Rappats. And then a non-goofy Riddler. I mean, the Jim Carrey Ridler, not for me. So looking forward to this. Yeah, I mean, that was a moment in time. It was a moment when When Jim Carrey was the biggest movie star in America, it was a time when he was able to run rampant in terms of improvving his way through performances.

He, of course, famously infuriated Tommy Lee Jones throughout the making of Batman Forever. But his character was clearly inspired by Frank Orschen, who was the Adam West TV Riddler. You know, they looked similar. They had similar voices. They had similar affectations. Carrie was a little bit more mad-eyed, I would say. but it sure looks like Paul Dano's killer. We can't even see his eyes.

We don't even know. He's wearing some sign of a mask. One last thing. Hey, speaking of coming of age 90s stuff and Batman, just Nirvana in the trailer? Yes. Something in the way. Pretty really scratching an itch there.

I feel like this. Absolutely. You know, sometimes things are made for you and you can be cynical about it and sometimes they're made for you and you can be just joyfully excited. I'm joyfully excited about the Batman. Me too.

Any final thought? Just what a pleasure to be here. I think the ringerverse is a wonderful show. House of Mal, one of the great shows. I'm just really, I'm honored, as always. A delight to be here with you and welcome you into the back cave of content. Friends, the ringer verse symbol is no longer in the sky. So that's a wrap on today's episode.

Thank you, as always to our intrepid producer Steve Allman, as well as to our Juno Ram Gapal, TD, St. Matthew Daniel, on the entire production team for their help with this episode. Thank you, of course. course, to the Lord of the Memes, Jomi Adoneron, for his work on the social for this episode. And thank you to our own caped crusader, Sean Fantasy, for joining me today. Remember, follow us on Spotify, wherever you get your podcast. Follow us on social and head back into the ring of verse on Friday for more Midnight Boys, Van and Charles. I'll be back next week. Until then, remember,

Why do we fall, Sean, so that we can learn to pot ourselves up? What's the difference between butter and butter made from real California dairy? It's the real California farm families behind it. Real people, real care, real intention. Why? Because real matters. So whether you're pouring milk, melting of cheese, or just grabbing one more spoonful of yogurt, Keep it real. Look for the seal. Real California milk by Real California Farm Families.

Enjoy more ways to save at Ralph's, like low prices in every aisle. And when you download the Ralph's app, you can clip and save more with digital coupons every week. Plus, you can earn fuel points to save up to $1 per gallon at the pump. At Ralph's, you can enjoy more ways to save and more rewards every time you shop. So it's always easy to save big every day with sales. Savings and Rewards. Ralf's, SoCal for over 150 years. Savings may vary by state. Fuel restrictions apply. See site for details.