The Ringer-Verse - ‘The Book of Boba Fett’ Chapter 5 Deep Dive | House of R

Episode Date: January 29, 2022

Mal and Joanna are off to visit a little friend and dive deep into the latest episode of 'The Book of Boba Fett'. They discuss the reintroduction of our favorite Mandalorian and where he fits into the story of Boba (04:00). Later, Ben Lindbergh joins to offer a history lesson on the infamous Dark Saber (60:22), along with speculating on favorite fan theories, all before closing with your mailbag questions (1:46:21). Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Producer: Steve Ahlman Guest: Ben Lindbergh Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Ringers Charles Holmes and co-host Grace Spellman present the most notorious new podcast in the industry, the Ringer Music Show. Every Tuesday, they'll bring you the latest news, the hottest takes, and the deepest reporting about the wild world of music and the chaotic industry that creates it. Check out the Ringer Music Show exclusively on Spotify. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Trimphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required. Tremfaya is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis.

Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections, or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Tramphiator Radio.com. Want to support your gut health?

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And now it belongs to me. Because you want it in combat. That's right. And now I will win it from you. Do you agree to this duel, Dingerian? I do. And welcome into the Ringerverse here on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin, and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you.

Not only to our new covert, but also to join us on the Ringer's Nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. Joining me today to talk about the book of Boba Fett. Chapter 5. And sure to let me know that it's no skin off her dip swap. It's my house of our working title. Co-host and my favorite most icily mechanic. Ringer senior staff writer Joanna Robinson. I don't like the implication about my dating life with Java's. If you call me your favorite. A lot of issues. A lot of issues. Yeah. That's a note.

The way Fully said a lot of issues. It's a hard note for me. Hello, Mallory. Joanna. This incredible episode of television that we can talk about. Oh, my God. It's Wizard. Oh, no.

So excited. Wizard. Podcast over. We have so much to get to today. Quickly, as always, a few programming reminders before we begin to forge something for a specific foundling. Steve, please insert a little coup right there. Programming notices.

Bonus pod coming on Monday. Van and I will be doing a peacemaker mid-season check-in. Cannot wait. Eagley. Can't wait to chat about Eagley. And then, of course, we've got Boba chapter six pods coming for you. Only two episodes of Boba left. The Midnight Boys, Van and Charles, Poo-Pew.

We'll have their instant reaction for you on Wednesday. And we will be back with our House of Our Deep Dive on Chapter. on Friday. Follow all of that by following the pod and by following our social feeds. We're everywhere, folks. We're everywhere. We're on Twitter. We're on Instagram.

We're on Facebook. There's a Reddit now. We're all over the place. You can find the ring of verse anywhere. Bear in mind, of course. Our friendly neighborhood. Spoiler. warning.

Today's podcast will feature plot details from the book of Boba Fett Chapter 5, Return of the Mandalorian, and a lot of plot details from elsewhere in the Star Wars canon. We're talking the Mandalorian. We're talking rebels. We're talking Clone Wars. We're talking all of it. So proceed with more caution than our guy, Paz Vizla, did, when he challenged Dinn.

I was going to say, then Dind Jarn when he thought he could swing the Dark Saber without any training. Plenty of choices. It gave himself a chemical burn. Plenty of choices in this one. All right, Joe. Dank Farik, what an episode. Take us through the quick facts here.

Yeah. So, you know, as you mentioned, Chapter 5, Return of the Mandalorian, directed by Bryce, Dallas, Howard, who is like, you know, very deservedly getting her laurels this week. She previously directed two other episodes of the Mandalorian,

season one, sanctuary, season two, The Arias. This is written by John Favro, and it is a nice, truly thick runtime of 52 minutes, the longest episode we've had this season of television. Yeah, I mean, that's all I have to say. You know, insert our favorite jokes about how this is actually an episode of the Mandalorian, which is how it feels.

But yeah, what do we, what do you, how do you feel overall? I mean, I know we, I know we liked this episode. But what are the larger implications for how much we like this episode, Mallory? I more than liked this episode. I'm so sorry. We loved you with every five of our entire meal. Yeah, we'll start with a few minutes of macro discussion here before we dive into the plot points. I loved this episode.

What a fabulous hour of television. Some of the most fun that I've had watching an hour of television since season two of the Mandalorian, right? I think there are a few things that are worth discussing here. And I think we'll talk as we go about why we loved the episode so much, right? But what does it mean? And this has been a big talking point over the last couple days since the episode dropped for this to have been, for all intents and purposes, an episode of The Mandalorian inside of a season of the Book of Boba Fed.

what does it mean if this is the best episode of the season, and it's not really an episode from this show, and what does it mean for this larger, connected universe? So I have a few thoughts here. It's Tony are all of yours. I kept thinking about, and you mentioned this in our very first Bobapod of the season, how Ming Naoen had said they call it the Mandalorian 2.4. right and how we were all sort of thinking about that as like a code you know a shorthand cover before it was known that the book of boba fat was happening in this fashion but maybe in terms of

the concept of the philosophy the spirit and thrust of the exercise it's a little bit more than that actually in terms of what that represents i've been thinking about the book and chapter language not just for the book of oba fat but the chapter usage in mandolian as well right what do they, they don't say episode. They say chapter, chapter one, et cetera, et cetera. And thinking of these shows as chapters in a book and books in a series that we'll all have together in a box set on our bookshelves one day is, I think probably a useful way for all of us to process what this connected universe is. So on the one hand, is it an indictment of the book of Boba Fett that the best episode of the series does not feature the titular character and is, could just

as easily have been the season three Mandalorian premiere. I think that it clearly and really almost like irrefutably reinforces what the book of Boba Fad as a show has lacked, right? What has not quite clicked into place with this show, the way that it did, the way that it just hums like that thrum of an activated lightsaber across the Mandalorian, right? Is it a bad thing overall, though, I think maybe not, because it reinforces outside of just the Boba Fet lens what this Favs-Faloney shared universe vision is, right? And maybe what it can offer us moving forward. And I don't think those two things have to be mutually exclusive from each other, right? This can be an indictment of Boba's ability to land the N1 starfighter or maybe get it to take off, actually.

Right, right, right. While also, like, promising something pretty exhilarating about the nature of this shared universe, like, we hear and talk a lot about this, the fact that these spin-offs are, you know, quote-unquote, set in the timeline of the Mandalorian. And I think it's just more than that, right? It's not that there's just set in the same timeline. Like, Mando is the sun around which these other properties orbit. I'll be really curious to see, like, come Asoka time, how that balance feels, because Asoka is such an established character embedded very deeply in the heart. parts of many Star Wars fans and someone we know a ton about compared to like what we knew about Boba heading into this. I also think it's interesting because it's not just about what it means for the Boba Fet show. It's about what it means for the Mandalorian as a series. Like if you're a Mando fan, you have got to watch this hour of television before Mandalorian season three. You have to. There is indispensable essential core canon in this for Dinn, for Dinn and Grogu, for the Dark Sabre, for Mandelor, for the Children of the Wash, for Bo, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And so there's this element of like, you know, I was, our pal Allen wrote in his Rolling Stone piece about like the DC, C.W show tradition of the crossovers where if you don't watch a crossover episode, you like have basically lost the thread of what has happened in key character lives, right?

Fun fact, that came that came from a G-chat that I had with Allen after the episode where we were talking about those DC crossovers. And like the fact that two of the main characters like got married in a cross- awesome records of legends. Exactly. A bizarre thing to have happened. Yeah. And, like, of course, I had been thinking about this as, like, the MCUification of this era of Star Wars, where we talk often with the Marvel shows, like, in the Marvel movies.

Can you just dip in and out of your favorite franchise or your favorite character arc or will you have just missed something elemental in another show or a movie that makes it impossible to track where you are? I think this aspect, at least, of Star Wars, is heading more in that direction. That's funny. I brought that up with them. I think in one of our early episodes, probably talking about specifically Spider-Man,

but it's a story that I like to tell about how my sister, who is such a casual Marvel watcher, got really mad when she went to go watch Homecoming because there's a new Spider-Man, she likes Spider-Man, she wants to go watch it. And she hadn't seen Civil War, and she was just mad that she felt like she needed to watch another movie to get the intro of this character that she was excited to meet.

And, like, you know, it's not something I get mad about, but I think about my sister as like a sort of, measuring stick of like a casual fan who like just wants to engage lightly with this kind of content. I mean, I have nothing super, super original to say about the larger ramifications. I think the Midnight Boys covered it really well. I think it's been covered in a lot of different places about how this does. I think when you hold something so solid up to something that's so wobbly, it is a bad look, right, for the rest of the series.

I love your tip. And genuinely, like, this is, again, something I adore about you, Mallory Rubin, like, your brilliant silver lining of this where you're like, actually, it's a good thing. But, I mean, what we know is... I just think it can be both. It can be a bad thing for the Boba series and a good thing for the shared universe.

Totally. I mean, it means Follone and Favreau can definitely do one thing extremely well, which is the Mandalorian. And our hope is that they can do all things Star Wars very well. Bukabobo so far, not the best example of that. It will be curious to see, as you said, like, how these other shows pan out. I know they're doing, like, what they're calling the Mandoverse. And then I have to imagine that, like, Obi-Wan and Andor are not in the Mandoverse, right? That there's, like, the Mandovers shows, Asoka, et cetera.

And then there's, like, what else are doing? A question that came up for me, something that I think about a lot, and forgive me, again, I did this on Euphoria last week. In the year of 2022, I'm going to invoke Joss Whedon. I apologize to people. but like I was a huge buff of vampire slayer fan, like massive. That was like my, my fandom origin story. And then Joss did a spinoff angel.

Now he's juggling two shows. Then he goes to do Firefly. And all of the shows suffer. I mean, Firefly season one up, down, whatever, you can feel about that. But like the parent shows suffer when a creative has spread that thin. And so my question is, they launch Mandalorian. and it's the one, this is the thing that they're doing. And now they're trying to do 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 shows.

You know what I mean? It's the same thing we talked about with Disney Plus Marvel shows where it's like, okay, you used to do two movies a year. And now you're trying to do like six TV series a year. And like, you know, and so like the quality starts to stretch over those things. And I'm hoping this boba wobble. And we found a lot to love in the boba episodes, right? But I'm hoping that the boba wobble is like, yeah,

I'm hoping it's an isolated. incident. And I'm hoping, like, Asoka, which is undeniably Dave Filoni's, like, most passionate project is Sala as a rock. I'm hoping, like, these other, you know, I'm hoping Mando season three is incredible. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's tough. We want to love this stuff so much, right? And this is a great episode of television. So I'm just like, I'm delighted we got a great episode of television. I think a bigger question in one we can't answer right now is like, what do the next two episodes look like, you know? Are we going with Mani? to visit Grogu?

Or are we staying back on Tatine and Mando's going to show up in the finale? Like, you know, next week he's off to see Grogu. Could we possibly live with ourselves if that happens off the screen from us? Like after like that first emotional goodbye, but also do we want to go on that journey with him when like we got a, we got another story to wrap up over here? you know, so it sort of depends how they balance that equation if next week also feels like an episode of Mandalorian or not. And again, if, you know, it's an all-star cast for the finale, like what is this all going to feel like in the end? A really unbalanced equation is what I imagine because these first four episodes are so, you know, shaking.

Yeah, very uneven. I agree with all that. I think a ton hinges on the finale. I love the point you're making about the core strength at the heart of what we're and then the risk of diluting from there. Like it almost makes me think, as you're describing it, of like a piece of Bescar, right? And the strength of that seal

and the kind of holy status that it occupies in the story as a result. And what happens when you're mixing an alloy, right? Or you can't access that core source material anymore, but you still have to craft armor and forge it out of something else. The dusty 90s phrase that I like to use is NBC used to do like a sitcom programming

block that had like Seinfeld and friends and a bunch of other rotating shows. And they called it must see TV. And they ruled those two hours. They ruled those three hours because ER was then at the end of it. Right. So it's like two hours of sitcoms and then ER and NBC owns your Thursday night. And they did like overlapping and crossover episodes and stuff like that. And like that concept of musty TV, like if you didn't see it, you're not going to follow.

It's something that I think about all the time when you do something like this, when you do a major lore download in a. episode of another season of television. So if people have taken a pass on Boba, come back to Mando, and they're like, what happened? And I don't know how they're going to handle that. Are they going to give us like a massively long previously on in the premiere? It's going to be up to us, the cottage industry of explainers, to be like, you got to go

back and watch Mando, Boba, Chapter 5. Like, you know, all great questions that we can't answer right now. Yeah, I think that it's, it's fascinating. in a few respects because to the point about like key lore downloads, you know, we actually are reliant on a lot of lore and even inside of this episode that happens elsewhere, right? Whether that's in Mandalorian or in Clone Wars or in rebels, like specifically with the Dark Sabre, but more broadly with Death Watch, with the Children of the Watch, with Clan Vistla, with Boca Tan, all of which we'll talk about more as we go today, like so much of what we got

in this episode built upon foundations established in other Flonny projects, right? And so in a way that gives me hope because this then being another piece of lattice work from which other episodes and installments will spring is like something that I think there's plenty of proof they can do well. But the fact that this Boba Fett episode actually answered a few key Mandalorian specific questions is really interesting. Like we don't know to your point when exactly or how that Dinn-Grogu reunion will surface on our screens. I have some thoughts. But this. This actually answered a couple really key questions that we had after the season two finale. Like, one was, will we have to wait a long time for a Dinn and Grogu reunion?

And whether it's because of Dinseng, I want to see him, make sure he's safe, my new, like, favorite moment in human history, or Dinseng to Fennick, you know, at the end, tell him meeting Boba, it's on the house. But first, I got to pay a visit to a little friend. Like, it's a promise, right? It's a declaration of intent that that will be happening soon that we won't have to. to wait long, wherever we get it. But then even more broadly, so much discussion in the wake of the season two finale and their split about whether the Mandalorian would work without Grogu.

And you know that I say this as like someone who was legitimately obsessed with Grogo. I love him, right? And he was, we should acknowledge, very present in this episode, whether it was like his musical cues or Din talking about him, forging Bascar. the foundling, the little tied bundle that was the exact shape of his head, the Rhodian kid who reminded Dinn of Grogu. And he's very present even in his absence in the episode, which I think is incredibly smart and gives us confidence that we can be compelled, endlessly compelled by watching Dinn, even if Grogu isn't present. But just think of the tracking sequence that we'll talk about, right? And some of that is a credit to how much we're compelled by Dinn now as a

character. Some of that is a credit to Bryce Dallas Howard and the really like tight, high flow way that this episode was directed. Some of it was just a matter of, like, a clear goal. Understanding, and this gets back to a lot of what hasn't worked about Boba, like understanding what the character is working toward inside of an hour of TV, very clearly understanding,

step by step, you gain clarity on what the character is trying to do. Like, all of that was there here. And that connects across various installments of their universe. And again, it's, but it's all tied back to the baby, right? Like, getting the ship and, you know, meeting with his covert and stuff like that. Like all of it is like about him getting back to the baby.

And I don't think Mandalorian works without Groku at all. And I had zero doubt that they were like, I was like, they're definitely going to bring that baby back so quickly. I have questions about, well, so, and I use, I actually, before this episode, interestingly, I felt like it was all a little cheap because like it felt like a false poignancy to the finale if they're just going to reunite them so quickly. you know, we're like crying because he takes his helmet off and it's so sad and they're parted and you're like, oh my God, these two, oh my God. But if like you just smooosh them back together so quickly, you're like, okay, what was I crying for? It was like a summer break or whatever. That being said, something about this episode, and we'll get into like the larger themes, but something about this episode and this idea of like the blend of Jedi and Mandalore creeds and like the found family, the specific found family of Grogo and Mando and what that

might do of bringing these ideologies from these two factions sort of together to create something new. I was sort of like, well, then you need Grogu to dip into the Jedi world, even if he leaves it again. You need him to dip into that and you need Mando to go back to his covert for them to realize that like, no, these are the places that we quote unquote are supposed to be with my covert with, you know, Luke and the Jedi order. But like actually what we really want to build is something together and something new is my sense of where this is all going after some of the discussions of the armor talking about the various ideology clashing ideologies

and then us knowing the show knowing that probably what we're heading for instead is a blended ideology rather than a clash of ideologies. And I think that that's really a really beautiful story. And it makes me a little less frosty about this whole like rip them apart only to bring them back together immediately. Yeah, totally. I mean, it's it's like saying,

it works without him in this episode isn't really an honest statement because he is, again, as we said, so present. And like, it works if he's not there only if they're working back toward him or really showcasing the way that the time they've spent together has changed in. And like, we'll talk about what his struggles to wield the dark saber reflect about his state of mind and everything that we understand from pastimes with Sabine and rebels, et cetera, but the impact that Grogo has had on Din, the decisions that their bond has led him to make, whether it's taking off his helmet or any number of other things, well, I think forced in, in a way that he needs to, to confront the rigidity of the way and the limitations of the way, which ultimately are just as damaging and dangerous as the strict, rigid dogma of the Jedi Order.

Exactly. We just led to all of this in the first place. And it's great if we're moving towards a place where it's like, hey, how about we don't have like, hey, how about the thing that, you know, created Darth Vader? maybe that's not a great way to do things. And like when the armor asked Jen, you know, have you taken your helmet off or has not even taken it off? And, you know, barring the moment that he did it in season one, let's talk about the two times he did it in season two,

the Mandalorian, both of them intensely, like, pressurized, having connected to Groku, were like, how could you possibly judge him for taking his helmet off on those two instances? like having watched them ourselves, we're like, if you think that's wrong, you're the problem.

You're the problem, right? Your creed is the problem. Like, I don't want to not respect your ways, you know, this, this, you know, rigid sect.

And having met, you know, Bocatan and all the other Middorrians who do take their helmets off. No problem. Okay. So you talked about like the impact of the absence of Groku has on DIN.

So let's talk at the beginning of it. We get, yeah, take us into the plot. Let's do it. Right away we see it. episode. Three minutes in.

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and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit trimfair radio.com. There's a pile of new republic credits in there that I have no right to. If you do me the honor of letting me pass,

you all can help yourselves to whatever you think you deserve from your former employer. We started in the freezer. Yes. In this freezer. And I agree with some people who were like, I love the scene. I agree with some people that

like sort of like the Vespas. This was a location that looked a little too like earthbound. The freezer specifically or the entire like ring world? No, not the ring world. No, no, no. Just you mean the freezer. The like, you know, the plastic flaps of the freezer door.

I'm like, I've worked in a restaurant. Like, that's what that looks like, you know? And so like, I love it in the concept art they had, instead of slabs of beef, like the Rockieslav of Beets, they had Nerf heads. I'm like, that probably would have made it a look a little bit more, you know. But also their cloutoonies there. Classic Joe just wants to see severed Nerf heads hanging from the...

Just getting from the ceiling. Just give me a parade on the ground. Parade of Nerf heads. Oh, God. You know, Dinn is there. He's not there for money. He's there because he needs the bounty to get the info that he needs to get back to his covert. Right.

And so... Happy to take the money, though. or happy to leave it. And he, it's a violent, it's an incredibly violent encounter. And like, there's a clumsiness that comes with him not knowing how to use the dark saber

and the heaviness that we're going to talk about, but also, you know, the vicious overhead slice and half and the taking of the head, you know, that signals to us that the healthier direction

we feel like dinner has gone in over the last two seasons is a regression. You know what I mean? It's, it's an, It feels like a darkness and an anger in him. And he's missing his son.

Oh, no, you know what they say about anger. I know that Fearle's a hate. That I do know. But it's one thing I want to say about this thing. So we get that great, you know, pilot throwback of I can bring you in warm. I can bring you in cold. Love fun, fun, fun times. In the pilot, though, when he says that, he had.

a carbonite freezing system on his razor crest that he could bring someone in cold on. He doesn't have his ship anymore. He just means dead. He means dead. It's even worse than it wasn't the pilot. And, you know, the beheading is vicious, but let's, I mean, he no longer has his, is he on the ring world the whole time? Like, is the freezer on the ring world?

Is that the idea? That was my interpretation. I don't know if it's like definitively clear, but that was my interpretation. that he went there in pursuit of the covert and in order to find the exact location, took the bounty so that he could get the intel and all of that is happening in this one ecosystem, but I don't know.

Also, the carbon point is interesting because I always still interpreted that as bringing in cold could just mean killing them, but you're right. Literally, he had the option to chill them while alive. Poor Mithril, never recovered. Never recovered. I was thinking that he took that up,

he chopped that off because it fits easier in the overhead compartment. You know what I mean? you, if you're flying commercial like Mando is these days, better to move ahead and the body. But if he's on the ring roll the whole time, anyway, it's a brutal thing, head in a bag. Mando having to put all of his weapons into a cruise liner storage, but leaving his missile jetpack on his back as he boards, all-time TSA oversight right there. One of the things that I really liked about the Clotunian sequence, in addition to obviously

just the thrill of seeing Mando, like the second you see his sense. silhouette, right? You can see the point of the Baskar spear. It's just the way he stands. We're like, that's our guy. It's din. He's back right away. I'm curious to know, like, how long it took you to realize this was going to be an entire Mando episode. I think for me, it was when he went to hand over the head after. It was like, oh, we're just going to get sequins after secrets. He's not immediately heading to Tatooine. But one of the things that I thought was smart, it's like just being with the Clotunians, even though they were not really the focus of the episode in any way, reminds us of the Clotunians, which makes us.

us think about, oh, like, the specific encounter that Din has here is completely separate from Boba's clotunian-centric Tatooine Mosespa escapades, but pitting him against clotunians here reinforces just their reach and their presence across the galaxy in these crime circles. So that was kind of fun. Right. And Pellimoto, you know, mentions the Pikes. So, like, you know, they're keeping those Boba antagonists in our mind. Yes. the pike

Mike mentioned was an interesting one to unpack to your point about just like the nature of the fight though. I mean obviously

the heaviness of the blade becomes a prominent talking point later with the armorer when he's back with a covert but just

first of all the thrill of seeing him to activate the Dark Sabre here which was like the four minute mark on the episode so basically

three minutes into the episode if you remove the previously on in the opening sequence. I like got a chill seriously.

I mean, it was just incredible and it was so genuinely exciting. And to see that he didn't know how to use it was just smart and, like, deft storytelling. Because if he had been, like, expertly wielding the blade, certainly if, like, you've seen rebels and you have that dark saber history with Sabine and everything, that would have just felt wrong. But I think regardless, as you're noting, when we assess the impact that Grogo's absence has on him, I thought that, like, Charles made some really great points. about this on Midnight Boys this week, the core of Dinn's character has constantly evolved over the course of every episode we've spent with him. And that's been really interesting and engaging to watch his arc. And he isn't even necessarily consciously grappling here with why he is behaving this way. But he doesn't just cut off the boss's head. He gives everyone in the room a chance

to leave. He does give them a chance to leave and they choose not to. And then later when he walks out, He says, I have no quarrel with any of you. Go take the money, right? But the people who stay, he cuts through them with a ferocity that is like troubling to behold. Right. And then- That's what I'm saying. There's anger there.

Quite a bit. And then you pair that with the way that it, he wounds himself. Yeah. And I thought that was just like really effective because he has to seek this knowledge about himself, about his relationship with Grogu, about his path, about what he wants. about the way and what he does and does not understand about his own creed and his own sect, but about the danger that he poses to himself until he manages to achieve that. So there was a lot packed into the opening sequence.

I quite enjoyed it. And then that injury, like so as we go, you know, either arrive in the ring world or we've been there the whole time, like, you know, the directorial choice that a lot of people are pointing out in this episode is this incredible one shot that seems to have been entirely practical. You could do a one shot where you mask cuts with digital, you know, digital swipes or like someone crosses the frame and you seem a cut in there. But there seems to be no apparent cuts in this one shot, which means they did it practically, which involves a lot of like rotating sets and all this all of this filmmaking wizardry that's really fun. Like, you know,

that that is of Bryce's dad's generation. And so that's always like a fun thing to watch. But I think something really smart that I hadn't noticed that our friend Eric boss over New Rockstars pointed out is that when you watch, didn't like walk through the whole thing. He hides his pain when he's in front of other people. And he really only when he's like alone in the elevator, he's grappling with the pain in his leg or his limp is worse when he's walking alone. And then he like tries to straighten out and look tough in front of other people.

And what it really drives home for us is this idea of like all that time we saw in the razor crest alone with Grogo. And it's just sort of like, you know, and opening himself up to this. kiddo and just being like, you know, being fully himself in front of this kid and then having to revert back to this like very lonely, I can't even show the world I'm injured guy, is a tremendous amount of character detail baked into a, you know, filmmaking wizardry moment of the one shot. Yeah.

It's great episode of television. That was, that whole sequence was awesome. And just in general, I found the new setting of this. this ring world so energizing and awesome. Like it's, it has been really cool to spend a lot of time in the first half of this season on Tatouine and learn more about Tatouine and its history. But it felt really good to leave. Like it felt we needed it. I was so defensive of the, like, everyone was like, can we get off Tatooine already?

And I was like, I think it's cool. Exactly what you're saying. Like dive into a place. and seetient. But, you know, as soon as we left, I was like, oh, you know what, it's really fun to bop around space as Mando always does. Yeah, it's just like refreshing.

And I think when you, when you assess why inside of the two seasons of the Mandalorian, that planet hopping is so fun. Like, one of the things I always loved is that you do gain comfort and familiarity in certain settings, whether that was inside of the Razor Crest before it was destroyed, or on Navarro, like a setting they returned to repeatedly. But you get to see so much more of the galaxy, like that vastness that draws us to Star Wars storytelling, as we're often talking about, right?

Like, you get to see Quil on Arvalla 7. And so when he talks about how, like, he just wanted peace in his valley, RIP, Quill, we miss you still. It lands. Like, you get to see that New Republic prison barge, right? You get to see the krill ponds on Sorgon. We get to see, like, frog lady warming her eggs. once that Grogo didn't eat in the hot springs and the ice world of Moldo Creece.

Like we just get to see so much of the world and understand the way that the character moves about it. But that's appropriate for a character like Mando, who is bounty hunting and then is on a quest to return Grogo to his home. I think like we'll get to the N1 Starfighter later. Shots to Anakin and Phantom Menace now and always. But it's hard not to think about like what a... Now and always.

Now and always. Prequel rehab here in the Book of Boba Fett and the Philoniverse. you know, and House of War. Not now and always. There's a lot. It's a house divided. It's a house divided. Well, I think there's something really interesting sort of underneath all of that,

which is this idea of Bobafed is trying to create a home. He's trying to put down roots in Tatooine, right? And create inside Jabba's Palace, amassing a family. You know, this idea of found family is prevalent in both of these shows. And he's trying to amass his family around him, these Vespa kids, Fenneck, you know, whatever the case may be, he's trying to sort of grow his family in a rooted position. Mando, because he's a bounty hunter and from a number of other reasons,

is someone who bounces around. But that idea of home, it's so funny, Sean Fantasy and I talked about this a lot when we talked about succession, this idea of like there isn't really like a home base for the Roy family on succession other than their private jet. Their private jet is the closest thing they have to a home. And for, for Mando, it was the razor. Crest, but like when did the razor crest get blown up when the child was stolen from him?

Like the child was in the same episode, Robert Rodriguez episode, the child's ripped away and the razor crest is blown up. And so he loses the kid and he loses his home. And this idea of like trying to rebuild that without Grogu, like trying to go back to your covert, which was essentially your home before, or trying to find a new ship, a new home. But it's like, you know, as the, as the Midnight boys called it the divorced dad sort of like midnight, midlife crisis car and not the like. He's gone from the minivan to the sports car. Thank God.

There's a grog your size bubble for him to sit in at least. No room for bounties though. But that idea of home, you know, is, you know, a man in search of a home and a man in search of a family and a man in search of a place to belong, which is something that was inherent to Dingeron long before season one, episode one in the Mandalorian because the idea of being a foundling. So it's, you know, the fact that the ship, the ship stuff in here is so cool because it's like,

it's that Toyetic Star Wars. We essentially get to see Pellimoto and the Mandalorian build a Lego set together, like, with a whole bunch of droids. Like, you know, that's, that appeals to the fandom of way. Yeah. And then there's like a lot of, you know, prequel trilogy or other stuff kicked into all of that stuff is there. But it like, it all comes back to those core themes. And that's what that's what Mandalorian can be so good at is there's like the surface

level fun and then there's just this deep shit underneath. And I just really would love that to be more integrated for Boba as well. Yeah. No, I, I, the fact that we, we learned so much about how fast this ship is going to be, it's like, that's not so it can become his new home. It's so he can use it to quickly find his family members, and the family member again. You know, in terms of that, that setting and that, that homebound aspect of Boba, like, it was interesting to get that line from Pelly later in the episode. Like, I don't know why you're in such, why you're, I was in to hurry, build me a ship, fix my plasters. You know, I never went anywhere

and look how good I got it. You know, I never even been off world. She called herself a local gal. Local gal, Pallymato, who we love and adore, right? And who's one of the characters, and this is that her hangar and her droids, one of the settings, one of the groups that has allowed us to really feel like this

fuller sense of Tattoine come to life. And so it's not like one or the other being superior. I think it's probably a little bit of balance and that it gets back to what you were saying last week about like the dual stoic leads, and you feel like this just kind of crackling levity when Pelly is playing off of Mado,

and then you have this, Peli is playing off of Mando, and then you have the blend of settings, and it's like the mix is like part of this key brew. And all of the shows can have different brews, different alchemies. They actually shouldn't try to make them all the same. And I think that maybe is one of the risks, really,

of having an episode so successful like this inside of a different show where people are just going to be like, well, this is just really the only thing we want. That's not how I feel about it. Like, I think the more different stories and different settings we can see, the better. There's a part of it, though, where it's like Tatooine, that's not new and different. Cool to learn more. But the ring world was actually new. That was like a totally new Star Wars setting. And then it gave us elements of this connective tissue where like a duel on a catwalk makes you think of so many amazing Star Wars duels, right? The prospect of falling down into the abyss

once the jet packs off at least. Like you think of like Bespin. It's just all of these great little ways to connect to Star Wars Pass while doing this something that feels totally unique. And of course, like the Mythasar sigil that Dyn tracks to the covert once he has his intel and finds the armorer and Paz again

is another one of those little visuals, right? I was so excited to see the armor again. I love her so much. I think not like I don't love her because I actually think a lot of things she believes in are wrong. but what a cool character. I've always loved her design. I think Emily Swallow who voices her

is just an incredible job. She's a tough, kind of a tough lift in this episode because she has to do an extreme amount of exposition. And again, like, there are people who can do exposition

where you are really like checking your watch and you're like, okay, enough of this lore download. And then there's Emily Swallow who's like, I'm going to make a beautiful epic poem out of this the way that I read it.

So, yeah, I just love this. What do you make of them saying that there are three survivors to their covert. Do they mean the two of them in Mando or do they mean there is another? There is another. It's a good question. I wanted to ask you the same thing. I think that I, in the moment of watching it for the first time, interpreted it as them counting din among their ranks again, because that is sort of how the conversation unfolds until he is excommunicated with the quickness, right? But they're

could be another character who will be revealed to us in time. I think one of the other questions is, does that math apply specifically to this covert or to the children of the watch, period? Like, are there other covert still elsewhere with other members who follow the way and believe in this creed? Other characters who trace their roots back to Concordia? Like, we don't actually really know the answer to that question,

either inside of this one setting or more broadly. And I think that's deliberate that it's a little bit opaque. The other thing is like, so she, you know, she's like, listen, it's our philosophy that Bessgar should be used as defense and an offense. Like you should have this. I have so many thoughts on this. The spear is offensive, right? I'm going to melt it down and melt some of it.

Just the tip. And like a lot of people ask like, you know, there's so much Besscar there. And Boba just got a little, a little, a little, a bit. of rings from it. We'll talk about that. I mean, that was back in season one, too. He brought all that Baskar back and he was like, I'm donating it to the cause, right?

The foundling cause. And she's like, you could have a little bit for yourself, guys, all right. Small nitpick here, by the way. She says that they can't use it for weapons. They made whistling birds from Bessgar before. Yeah, great nitpick. Great point.

That's a little weird, right? Also, it puts us at odds with her because I'm like, like, please don't take this thing that our guy needs for defense. Like, our guy has this thing and he needs it for defense. Please don't take it from him. This is, this is, I think you're supposed to feel uneasy about this idea of this person is like, is taking something we've seen him used to protect his life in the season two finale from him. And something that connects to Asoka and Asoka's arrival in live action. She gave him the spear.

He said he got it from Jedi. But of course, that was Morgan Elspeth's spear. That Osoka won that spear and that in that. and Morgan L. Spith connects, of course, of the iconic Grand Admiral Thron line. So there's a lot of connective tissue to that spear and where it might trace to and what it might mean. Here's what I loved about this moment, though.

Yeah. You've mentioned a few other things in the episode already that are kind of like plot mechanics that really open up something thematically about the heart of a character or a decision. And I think this one does this too. Because while I also was confounded and like shouting,

don't do this. Let them keep this fear. Come on. When she says it can also pierce Baskar armor, its mere existence puts Mandalians at risk. I think that's like a brilliant line of dialogue that cuts to a lot of the heart of their history and their outlook. Because on the one hand, it speaks to their creed, right? But more crucially, I think it speaks to their fear. And specifically the fear of anything that threatens their strength.

Right? Anything that threatens the strength of the Mandalorian Creed is anathema to them. And it made me think in an episode that had a lot of Sabine and Rebels connections, even though her name was not like uttered the way that Bose was. It made me think of Sabine and the arc pulse generator plot from rebels because that was like the product of her genius. But it was something that ended up being deployed against the Mandalorians because it attacked Baskar armor. Right. And it would like, it disintegrated. The Mandalorian Warriors. This is a question I should ask you off air, but I'm going to do it on air instead. I know that this is like a deep dive podcast for people who like know it's, but like when we bring up stuff from the animated,

like should we tell people who Sabine is in case they're listening and they don't know? Sabine Ren is a character from Star Wars Rebels. She will be entering the live action on, well, certainly for Asoka, I guess it's possible we'll meet, we could meet her sooner, given the number of connected plots.

threads here, but she is definitely going to be in live action in Asoka. She at one point, and we'll talk about this, we'll just tease it here, we'll talk about this more in a few minutes with Ben Lindbergh. At one point, finds and recovers from mall, the Dark Sabre, is encouraged to learn how to use it and wield it and use it to unite the fractured clans of Mandelor and makes the decision. And there's a lot of like essential Sabine canon that doesn't connect to the Dark Sabre but for the purposes of this concentrated

the answer to your question. She is the one who gives the Dark Sabre to Boatan. So she is like inextricably linked to the events of this episode and everything with Bow and the Mandalorian. I would just, if you haven't seen Rebels, I would honestly encourage you to just go to YouTube or Google and type in Sabine gives the Dark Saber to Boatatan.

It's like a great scene. Everyone been seen. the knee. She raises it into the air. And there's a lot at the heart of the Canaan Jaris, Sabine, Dark Saber training sequence that I think tells us a lot about what we can expect for Dinn. Because Sabine, like Dyn, not a Jedi, not a force user. But some people like will hold that inside of the story, we'll hold that against them. And others have the wisdom to not do that, to not make that mistake. Dingerran, have you ever removed your helmet? Have you ever removed your helmet?

By creed you must vow. I have. Then you are a Mandalorian no more. Let's talk a little bit more about this like Jedi Mando Creed clash, which I think is so interesting that comes up right here, which is, you know, Emily Swallow as the armor is giving us a little Lord download and she's like, you know, the creed of the Jedi is about detachment. we know that from like Anakin Padman,

a lot of other stuff. And then, you know, the Mandalorian creed is about loyalty, all this sort of stuff. And it's just so interesting, but that's the binary that's set up here. When Jin, taking off his helmet,

that was an act of like love and loyalty. You know, that was, that feels, that feels more Mando Creed than anything else that we've seen this covert do. So, um,

I just, you know, it's like, it's like the letter of the law versus the spirit of the law. And if the spirit of the Mandalorian Creed that he was brought up as is like, we are loyal to our pack, oh, you know, over all else, then of course he's going to take his freaking helmet off for the kid. I just thought that was really interesting. What do you think? I have some strong feelings and thoughts about this.

And I actually think this is potentially one of the things that Faloni and Favro are most interested in exploring moving forward. that is my fervent hope, right? And I think that a lot of the like prequel rehab are interest in expounding upon, expanding upon what happens in the prequels that we've talked about before. Like some of that is like, oh, we get to go through the pod racing circuit here and head toward Beggars Canyon or here's the N1 Starfighter, the stuff we've already talked about. And some of it is as sweeping and vast and impactful as clone wars can allow you to understand the tragedy of Anacin's fall in a way. way that the prequel films maybe did not, right? Now, I ride for Revenge of the Sith, as you know,

but have you ever heard of the tragedy of Darth Vader? Not from a Jedi. So this specific thing, interrogating the limitations and dangers of the rigidity of the Jedi order and Jedi Creed, I think we'll work beautifully and poetically in tandem with Dyn. Other characters too, Bo, certainly. But Dinn, I think most of all, because we see in season two when he's learning these things from Bo and Cosca Reeves, he doesn't know a lot about Mandalorian culture outside of his upbringing with the children of the watch. For him to learn more about this and interrogate the hypocrisy at play here, I think

will be essential to him emerging as a more fully formed, as continuing to evolve as a character and maybe emerging as a leader of Mandelore moving forward. forward, right? Yeah. So when we get those juxtaposed lines, right, in order to master the ways of the forced Jedi must forego all attachment from the armor. And then Dyn says that is the opposite of our created loyalty and solidarity or the way, like boasting about loyalty one minute and then trying to kill each other for the dark saber the next and then banishing one of maybe your three remaining members because he took off his helmet is like wild and shocking stuff, right? The Jedi and the Mandalorians are, this group inside of the Mandalorians at least, are juxtaposed here.

But I think they are just as rigid in their respective dogmas. Absolutely. And I think that unwavering attachment is just as dangerous and limiting as not allowing attachment at all. That's zealotry, ultimately, right? No, and these, these Mandalorians have, you know, this particular covert of Mandalorians has always struck me as zealots. and it was always a little uncomfortable that Dindjard belonged to this order. I mean, you're going to talk about Death Watch

and I can see it in your face. But like, I understand. But like I think that we're at the point where you know just from my facial expression what I'm about to say. Great stuff. But I think that we are a clan of, well, not too.

There are five people on the Zoom. But I think that repeat, that ongoing repeat, the beginning of Mandalorian of this is the, way, this is the way, this is the way, this is the way. If the ending thesis of the middle oran was like, that was not the way, like, that was never the way. And maybe even with the freaking Jedi order, that was not the way. I mean, we know where Luke's attempt to rebuild the Jedi order goes.

We go badly, you know what I mean? So this idea of like, maybe the Jedi order isn't the way either. And maybe we can just sort of create our own creed. and it's a kinder, kinder gentler grade. It's just a little, it bends. Bendier than Baskar. That's all. The bend and gentle wave of like Grogu's ear in the wind, you know.

Because he flies around in the astrumac. Okay. Do you want to talk about Death Watch? Death Watch quickly. Yeah, let's hit that before we dive into the Dark Sabre with Ben. So this has been kind of an ongoing discussion across the Mandalorian and is here again. I think there is some stuff that we like know and can say definitively. And then there are some stuff that we don't know and we'll yet to learn.

We'll learn in time. I feel confident that we can sort of stop asking is, are the children of the watch an offshoot of death watch and just say the children of the watch are an offshoot of death watch for various reasons. First of all, just the naming convention, right? The fact that watch is right there in the name, right? You know, it's like us, like children of the watch because we listen to so many episodes of Chris and Andy talking, right?

It's all right there in the name. the Death Watch sigil on the soldiers in Mandos and Dinn's flashbacks right across the Mandalorian series. There's a fun nugget. I think this is probably on the Wikipedia entry for Death Watch maybe, like in the trivia section perhaps of our call. But there's a fun nugget out there about how in the French version of the Mandalorian, Children of the Watch translates to the heirs of Death Watch.

Now, you can't always put like full stock in something like that, but that's a fun little nugget, right? So what was Death Watch for people listening who don't know? Yes. In answering that question, I will note that one of the key, key, key, key bits of insight we got in this episode is the Concordia reveal, right? About like the moon and being based on Concordia because Death Watch is one of the sects, the Mandalorian Civil Wars, like there are many things well before the Great Purge on the Night of Thousandeers that contribute to the fall of Mandalore. And Civil War is like embedded throughout Mandalorian history. These warriors warring with each other,

their philosophies in opposition to each other. Sister against sister. For a time, yes. So Bo's sister, our beloved Duchess Sotene, and not just our beloved. Obi-1's beloved too, right? Talk about a YouTube wormhole

that's worth falling into. She was the ruler of Mandelor. Like, if you watch Clone Wars, that era of the canon. She was the ruler of Madler and she was pacifist in her views, fervently pacifist. And

pre-Visla, so an ancestor of Tara Vizla who we hear about in this episode and learned about in a great Dark Sabre Trials of the Dark Sabre episode of Rebels. But Paz Vizla's forebearer, crucially for this episode,

was exile to Concordia as part of this like militaristic group that believed fervently in a different way of governance and a different way of running Mandalorian society. It's like Athens versus Sparta, right? And the team is Athens.

Previsla is Sparta. And Death Watch is a terrorist organization. A terrorist organization that Previsla is at the head of. He wields the Dark Sabre in Clone Wars. I'll fast forward quickly through this. Maul kills him and takes it from him. Maul is eventually then the leader,

installs himself as leader with the Shadow Collective and his supercommandos. I have an armorer supercommando theory, as do many people on the internet that I want to circle back to later. And that is the point at which Bocahont, who was a member of Death Watch, a member of Death Watch until that point,

breaks off. And this is also when Maul has Satin in prison before, spoiler, killing her, devastatingly with the Dark Saber as she dies in Obi-1's arms. The Wallace, if you haven't seen that episode, watch it. He kills Previs as well. I mean, he won the Dark Sabre in combat. Yeah.

Mal did, right? Whereas Sabine just takes it from him later. So that's what Death Watch is. They're a terrorist cult based on the, in the, around the like abandoned mines, actually, on Concordia. So we get some mine talk for Mandelor here. And they're challenging for the throne of Mandelor. and then there are, there's a divide when, when Maul kills Pree and takes over

between Bo's faction and the mall supercommandos, like at that point in the canon. But what's true then, if, like, the covert is children of the watch, heirs of Death Watch, like, right? And then Bo Catan was also belonged to Death Watch. Like, these two

Mandalorian ideologies, which we has, our Mando has encountered so far, are from the same sort of toxic root, right? So is there a third way? The Sotene, pacifist way, are there people who have survived who adhere more to that? Yeah, I think that Bo's history with Death Watch

will be an interesting thing to, like, track moving forward, because obviously they sort of had to, like, rehabilitate her character across, like, Clone Wars, then into rebels as she took over. But she was, like, staunchly opposed to everything with Moll, but yes, was aligned with Death Watch and pre-Visla before then. So it is complex.

I think the fact that she kind of openly mocks the children of the watch when she has her encounter with Dyn and the heiress is like a fun thing to think about. And I wonder if Mando, like when he heads back to Mandelor to seek out those living waters beneath the mines, destroyed though the minds may be, it feels like that that is a setup for a lot of like ripe possibilities in season three of the Mandalorian, including potentially finding a Mithesaur or Bessar down in the living waters below. I would love that. Well, and I think that anyone watching this season two,

Mandelorian finale, like, Kittysakoff is so charming, but watching Bow's extreme tension around Mando having the Dark Sabre, like, you know, she's been an ally, but she could very easily be an antagonist here. Absolutely. And I think, like, seeing how, because we get some, some key prophecy

dark saber lore from the armor in this episode which we'll talk about with Ben in a second here but like we know that

Beau from her own experience having lost to Gideon having lost to the empire, Mandler having fallen is keenly aware of the way

that this belief in how you can really win the dark saber and how you can really rule has seeped into the populace

maybe beyond. just the children of the watch, right? I think there are some interesting nuggets that we can look back on to say, well, how much of this is a retcon and how much of this is just organic building. But to that point you made about their creed, when she says,

had our sex not been cloistered in the mood of Concordia, we would not have survived the Great Purge, right? And then only those that walked the way escaped the curse prophesized in the creed, the curse associated with the Dark Sabre. It's like they're already drawn toward this militaristic

kind of isolationist approach, right? And so Din is going to have to grapple with that, not just the ties to Death Watch and that terrorist history, but the fact that they believe that they survived because of their outlook, that that made them, like, worthy of existing

in a way that people who don't abide by it cannot and should not. Like, that is really, really, really dangerous. Before we hear from our lore master, our armor, Ben Lindberg, do we want to do a Grogo Giff's Speculation Corner really quickly? Let's do it. That beautiful little bundle shaped like his precious little head. I wept.

It was just wonderful. I mean, seeing it in the first place, incredible, but the way that Dinn then looks at it on the Starliner later, just fabulous. Do you think it's chain mail like Mithril? No. Do you think it's the component parts for a lightsaber? No.

I think it's a like a maister's chain I think it's just like a necklace or maybe a belt because I was trying to think like I don't want to see armor on Grogo right?

Like he's cute and soft to wear his little sack Yoda never wore anything other than like robes you know what I mean? So I don't really want to see him armed but I like the idea of him wearing a little Baskar drip I think is the Midnight boys called it.

Like, you know what I mean? Because it's a little bit of, it's like the way that Dindjarn puts the mudhorn and that's, you know, that connects him. That's a bit of like sort of his life with Grogh on him. To have a little Baskar on Groko is cute.

But I don't think, I don't think it's Mithril armor. I kind of like the idea of Grogo choosing, even if it's not how Dinn intended it, choosing to use it to eventually forge his lightsaber. I was texting with the Jason's Concepciona Manzukas the other day. And we're talking about like how cool it would be if Grogu also incorporated the ball,

you know, the sphere from the razor press like that. First hilt. Yeah, for his hilt. I love that. And the little Baskar rings here and his khyber crystal when he finds it. and like forging a lightsaber that reflects these different aspects of his identity. It connects to what you were saying a few minutes ago, right, about forging a new creed and a new way forward that blends a lot of these ideologies

and doesn't just stick with one path. I think that would be really cool. I love that. I love the idea of it as a chain that eventually becomes like part of the Hilt. That's a great idea. This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh. juicy, seasonal produce, and some very tasty, limited time flavors. New Whole Foods,

market peach, apricot, rose, Italian soda. Perfect for a picnic or brunch, as is their trending mango, Yuzu, chantilly cake. But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sale signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavor. of spring save at Whole Foods Market. This episode is brought to by Paramount Plus. Beth and Rip are back in a new series, Dutton Ranch. Kelly Riley and Colehouser returned, and this time they're taking on Texas.

As Beth and Rip build a future together, peace will have to wait as they face corruption, danger, and a ruthless rival ranch, willing to protect its secrets at all costs. Legacy is a beautiful thing, but only if it survives. Dutton Ranch starring Colehouser, Kelly Riley, Annette Benning, and Ed Harris now streaming on Paramount Plus. Boketan is a cautionary tale. She once laid claim to rule Mandelaw based purely on blood

and the sword you now possess. But it was gifted to her and not won by Creed. Boketan Crees was born of a mighty house, but they lost sight of the way. Her rule ended in tragedy. They lost their way, and we lost our world. All right, we've talked a little bit

about the Dark Saber. We are now going to dive even further into the fascinating lore with our own armor. Ben Limburg, who is here to tell us about the bloody trail the Dark Saber like the Elder Manist traced across the course of history.

A little bit of the new canon that we got in this episode and some viewing guide recommendations if you're eager to dive further into the canon yourself and learn more. Ben, light it up. Not to be confused with the lightsaber-shaped Death Star-style super weapon called the Darksaber that was built by the huts in the 1995 novel Darksaber. I doubt anyone was confused about that, but just putting it out there. The old expanded universe was wild.

So this Darksaber, the most important Darksaber, it's kind of an interesting link between the Lucas era and the Disney Dave Faloni era, and its significance and its backstory have evolved over time to suit the demands of the new multi-series streaming model. So this Dark Saber was created by George Lucas himself and introduced in season two of the Clone Wars. Little did anyone know at the time that 10 years later, Disney would own the franchise and the Dark Saber would become the linchpin of the shared live-action TV universe. Who knew? So originally, it was just a lot of the game. It was just a simple solution to a simple problem, which was that pre-Visla, who was then the governor of Mandelor's Moon Concordia mentioned in this most recent episode, needed to fight Obi-Wan,

and he was supposed to use a vibro blade, but you can't bring a vibro blade to a lightsaber fight. So Lucas said, you can't block a lightsaber with this thing. We need something new. And from that humble origin, the dark saber was born. Kind of like a lightsaber, but different color, different sound, different shape. So since then, it's been incrementally fancified and retconned up to and including this episode of the Mandalorian. I mean, the book of Boba Fett. So in that very first appearance of the saber, Visla says, this lightsaber was stolen from your Jedi temple by my ancestors during the fall of the old republic.

Since then, many Jedi have died upon its blade. Prepare yourself to join them. No indication yet that it was also built by one of his ancestors. that came along later. So Previsla has the blade when he takes over Mandelor as the leader of Death Watch. Then he duels Darth Maul and he loses. Maul says, I claim this sword and my rightful place as leader of Death Watch. Not necessarily all of Mandelor, mind you, just Death Watch at that point.

So now Mal has the saber and he uses it, sadly, tragically. Spoilers to kill Duchess Sotene right in front of Obi-One. Just a tough moment. But Darcidius shows up and outdulls Darth Maul with the Dark Sabres. So honestly, the record of people who have actually used the Dark Sabre in combat in the TV series so far is not great, which is why it keeps changing hands, I guess. So be careful, Mando, maybe wear some leg guards or handle with care. I had a great uncle who is an amateur lumberjack, and he once chainsawed himself in the leg in much the same way that Mando Darksaber himself. And after that, his wife would never let him chainsaw anymore.

So we'll see what happens with Mando. Oh goodness. Did they have any back to spray on hand? That was Sandy here. He was okay, though. Anyway, Mal eventually he escapes imprisonment. He returns to the Death Watch and he is given the Dark Saber back. Yes, given the Dark Saber.

That happens sometimes. More on that in a moment. In Star Wars rebels, Sabine Wren recovers the Dark Sabre from Mal's homeworld, Dathamir. and after that we start finally learning a little bit more about the blade. So this is seven years in our timeline, the real world, after the Dark Sabres introduction in the Clone Wars, we finally get this little lore dump on the third season of Rebels about Tar Visla, the first Mandalorian Jedi who created the Dark Saber more than a thousand years before.

And that episode also helps establish that the Dark Saber is such a legendary weapon that whoever wields it can not only unite Clan Visla, but can command the respect of the other Mandalorian tribes. And it also conveys that the weapon almost has a mind of its own. Sabine says the blade feels lighter and Canaan Jaris, who is training her to use it, says you're connecting with it. It's becoming a part of you and not in the way that it briefly becomes part of Mandel's leg. So it's almost sentient. Like you can't fight it. You have to work with it. You have to be on the same side as the Dark Saber in order to wield it effectively. So a little later, Sabine and her friends are surrounded on Mandelor by the forces of Gar Saxon, who's governing Mandelor on behalf

of the Umpair. Yeah, that guy. He gets his comeuppance here. Saxon gets the Dark Sabine's mom in exchange for Sabine's life. Again, he is given the Dark Saber, make a note of that. But then Sabine duels him. He loses, and Sabine reclaims the saber. So chalk up another loss for the Dark Sabine at this point.

Sabine decides she doesn't want to run. rule Mandelor and that Bo Catan would be a better choice. So she gives the Dark Sabre to Bo Catan. And everyone accepts this. They all pledge allegiance to Bo Catan. Next thing we know, there's been a great purge. Mandelor is devastated. Moth Gideon has the saber, so somehow he got it from Bo Catan. And then that brings us up to the season two finale of the Mandalorian, which changes everything about the Dark Saber, basically. So Mando beats Gideon in a duel, as you recall, Dark saber wielders, what, 0 for five now, I think, in the show? Wow.

It's not really a super weapon. I guess those get destroyed sometimes, too, in Star Wars. So he tries to give the weapon to Boatatan, Mando does, but Gideon says she can't take it. It must be won in battle. In order for her to wield the dark saber again, she would need to defeat you in combat. He also says that dark saber doesn't have power the story does. Without that blade, she's a pretender to the throne. So suddenly the Dark Sabre is the Elder Wand, right?

I mean, you have to pay the iron price to get it. I know I'm mixing my franchises there. I was going to say, it sounds like the Ring of Power too, right? So it's like it's the Elder Wand and the Ring of Power all rolled into one. A lot of Nodverse tendrils here. This latest episode of Book of Boba Fett technically fleshed out this new story even more. So the Armourer tells Mando that Mandalorian lore. says that if the dark saber is one in battle, one warrior will defeat 20 and the multitudes will

fall before it. But if it falls into the hands of the undeserving, Mandelor will be laid to waste and its people scattered to the four winds, which is exactly what happened after Bocahattan accepted the saber from Sabine. Pretty good prophecy, I would say. Good job prophesizer. So the armor puts a lot of blame at Sabine's feet. I'm just going to note that.

That's the thing. Very tough. Yeah. The armor is basically making it sound as if the whole destruction of Mandalar and the Great Purge and the Night of a Thousand Tears and all of this is basically Sabine and Bocatan's fault for not following the prophecy. Granted, I guess the armor also says you can't be a Mandalorian if you take off your helmet, which is an extreme position. So who knows if we should take her word on this? But clearly it did play out that way. And clearly Bokatan accepts now that she can't get the blade without fighting for it.

So either she'll have to accept Dinh Jarin as the rightful ruler of Mandelaar, which we don't even know if he wants to be, or she'll have to challenge him to a duel like Pass Visla did. And again, I still think they could kind of go through the motions somehow, like maybe make it look good, have Mando throw the fight, you know? Like, oh yeah, you got me. You defeated me in combat. Guess I got to give up the Dark Saber now. That depends how much of that Elder One spirit is really there, right? You have to really win the allegiance of the wand. Yeah.

Does the Dark Saber know that you didn't win it fair and square? And I guess if the story has more power than the blade, the story's got to be good. So some of the key Dark Saber stuff to watch, we've touched on most of it here, but here's where you can find it. The Clone Wars, Season 2, Episode 12, the Mandalore plot. That's where the Dark Sabers introduced. Alzheimer. Love that one. Season 5, Episode 15, Shades of Reason.

that's where Mal outdulls pre-Visla. And then the next episode, episode 16 of season five, the Lawless, R-I-P, Seteen. And that's the Mal duel with Darsidius. And then Rebels, Season 3, Episode 11, Visions and Voices. That's where Sabine retrieves the Dark Sabre. A few more after that, episode 15 trials of the Dark Sabre. That's where Parvisa. And Al-Ti-Visla enters the picture.

Yeah. And there's also a training session between Sabine and Kane. in. It's kind of like Mandoz with the armor. And then the one after that, episode 16, Legacy of Mandelor. That's where Sabine gets the saber from Gar-Saxon, and Gar-Saxon gets got. And then the two-part premiere of episode four, also Heroes of Mandelor. That's where Boat-Tan, uncontroversially accepts the Dark Sabre. To raucous applause. No one aware of this prophecy that apparently existed the whole time. So, and lastly, of

the season two finale of the Mandalorian, which you should watch and rewatch for many reasons. But this is the rescue, and that's where we get the Gideon defeat and this new update about how you can and can't obtain the Dark Sabre. Oh, Benjamin. Incredible work. Incredible. Forged in the fire of knowledge. A few follow-up thoughts.

One, I'm sure everyone is thinking it. Just relieved Palpi doesn't have the Dark Sabre. I mean, there was a clear path to that outcome and very glad it didn't happen. Though perhaps he is the rightful wielder in that chain of events, which would be dismaying. Given the history of- Does it work for a Palpatine clone? Does it transfer? I hope we never find out. Sincerely hope we never find out, Joanna.

Yeah, well, maybe you should have wanted him to have it given what happened to everyone else who gets it. So I love the point you were making in there about like what Bo now recognizing. because I think one of the things I'm most interested to see like unfurl from here in the story moving forward, probably in the Mandalorian, but maybe in Bob, maybe in a potential bow spin off any number of places. Challenging what people think is true and making the distinction between what is actually true, right? Like the fact that this is a prophecy that people believe in, certain sex believe in and has misguided certain groups, one of the grandest, fantasy traditions is eventually cutting that down, right? And so whether Bo is the one who works to do that or Dinn does, I think that needs to happen. I love how you touched on like what has felt like a little bit of retconning because of the smoothness in the moment in rebels of the Sabine to Boe handoff and

then kind of that like shock of realizing what had gone wrong and learning more about the canon across the Mandalorian. I was rewatching a little bit of rebels. And one of the lines that really stood out to me is when Sabine is catching up with mom. Tough hang. Gotta say, tough hang. And a lot of moms are tough hangs. Wow. And says, where did you get it?

Sabine says from mall. And her mom asks, you want it from him in combat? And Sabine says, uh, not exactly to which her mother replies. Then you have no claim to it. And I think that's really worth remembering because it shows us that, again, more widely spread than just this maybe like very, very, very fervent, strict children of the watch outlook. This is a belief that others in Mandelor would at least be ready to accept and maybe particularly susceptible to, like, exploiting. So are the children of the watch, the ones who pointed out

that Bo hadn't won this by Creed? Like, did they attempt in some way to fracture her rule as Mandelor? perhaps, or is this just something that has taken root across Mandalorian society in the wake of everything that happened with Gideon and the Empire and the Purge? And of course we got to see those gorgeous and horrifying sequences, those flashbacks at last to the Great Purge and seeing the domed city of Sundari falling and seeing the Thai fighters and seeing the gay hexroids and the probe droids and the corpses and the Mandalorian Bessker. are like strewn and littered across the land. Like, I think there's just a lot that connects here in a fascinating way. And it's just, I just love the Dark Sabre. It's genuinely one of my favorite things in the story. Like, it really is. And I think the fact that Dinn is that reluctant leader, as you noted, is another, like,

quite, you know, embedded and proud fantasy tradition that will ultimately maybe make him the worthy one in the end if he doesn't want it, you know? It has really transcended its origins as, hey, we need something that's a little bit stronger than a vibro blade here. this one fight. Now the whole franchise is hinging on it. But yes, that's an interesting point. And I guess, you know, we should note maybe that the Dark Sabre seemingly passed down through the generations of the Vistla clan. I assume that they were not all challenging each other to duels constantly, which would be tough at the family reunion.

Never know. I wouldn't shock me. Is there some family exemption? You can pass it down to your kids or something? Can you just denote a successor? And maybe. as you're saying, maybe you break the wheel with this prophecy, right, and say, well, look where our past got us. It got us to destroyed planet and everyone scattered to the winds. I guess the lesson you could draw from that is, oops, we didn't follow the prophecy, right? But you could also say maybe we figure out a way to have a peaceful transfer of power here. And who knows, maybe it's not all dependent on this symbolic blade either. Maybe it's not that the best ruler is whoever beat someone in a fight and claims the Dark Saver,

but maybe you have to have a good platform or something, right? Some campaign promises, yeah, yeah. There's a way to set aside all of this history that really has gotten them all into trouble. I don't know what Mandalorian culture is if you make it peaceful. I mean, there were experiments with that that we saw in the Clone Wars. That's going to be a conflict, but maybe there is a way to phase out the Dark Saber, ultimately,

because it's got to be a tough way to govern, I think, if you are just perpetually subject to challenges from someone who wants to take your weapon. And then if they beat you in that fight, it's over. New administration. That's tough. Not a lot of continuity there. I don't think that DIN will ever be drawn to a totally peaceful reign or existence. I mean, how many times have we heard him say, including in this episode, I'm a Mandalorian. Like, weapons are part of my religion. But, you know, Ben, some of what you were just saying, and just more broadly the connections between the heaviness that Din and the armor discuss and that we see with Din in the opening sequence that we see between Din and Pre,

when he challenges him to the duel to try the Wind of Sabre back, that heaviness, and that connects, of course, to the Sabine and Canaan training session from Trials of the Dark Saber. Like, there's so much that I love in that Sabine-Kan sequence from Canaan saying that, you know, people will challenge her once she has it. Fenn saying that the training is not important is what the blade represents.

But one of the things that I love most that reminds me of something Joanna was saying earlier in the pod about how crucial it is to keep thinking about the way that Grogu has changed Dyn. Canaan says to Hera, actually, in that Rebels episode, when Harrah's basically like,

do you not think she can do this because she's not a force, a force wielder, right? And sort of like calling him out. And Canaan says, no, the force resides in all living things, but you have to be open to it. Sabine has blocked her.

mind is conflicted. And like that conflict is very present inside of Mando right now too, right? And so like Canaan saying you're not fighting me, you're fighting yourself and losing. That is like a direct parallel that maps on exactly to what we see here between Din and the armor. So how does Din change that for himself? Because the way Sabine changes it inside of that Rebels episode is that she starts to speak the truth aloud, like this thing that she has been hiding from other people and lying to herself about, right? So what is the equivalent there for Dinn that he wants to be with Grogu?

Can I, can I offer up a little bit of fan fiction? Please. That I just came up with. Like, what if Grogu also, I mean, we've seen him struggle because he's so young and new to it, but like, what if he can't use the force cleanly, right? If he's not, like, with Mando. What if Mando is only able to use the Dark Sabre if he's with Roku?

You know? Wow. Because like, you know, there's a huge difference, as we talk about this and everyone knows, there's a huge difference between being a Jedi and just being like a force user, force sensitive. And like, so this idea of like Grogu maybe not belonging to the Jedi order, but still being able to be a force user nonetheless. Right.

And synthesizing the Jedi and Mando traditions of attachment with force using. Yeah. Maybe Groku is the rightful ruler of Mandelaar. Maybe he will wield the dark saber. That would be great. Boba can ride out on his rancor. Dinn can write out on his Mithosaur that he'll find in the living waters beneath the former mines on Mandelor. Grogu can come out wielding his newly forged lightsaber complete with razor crest bubble and Baskar rings. And Grogu can take his seat upon the throne? Wow. Can I wait for season three? Since Ben's here, can I hit you with like a couple things I read on Reddit that I really loved on the Star Wars Reddit? Okay. Yeah, let's just do Conspiracy Corner. right here with Ben, because we have a few that are kind of all connected to what we're talking about. Yeah. So there's one from a user, Pedro Yo-Yo Ma, great username, has this great

post on lightsabers and broadsorts and how initially George Lucas wanted lightsabers to be more like broadsorts. So like, when you see the lightsabers first show up in the original trilogy, you have to hold them with two hands. They're supposed to have like a weight to them. And then later, you know, that changes entirely and they're basically light weapons. you could twirl them and you could do the OB&E, and you could do whatever you want with them. But like initially, when you first watched Luke try to train with it,

when you watch Obi-Wan wield it, it's a two-handed heavy weapon. And so this idea of bringing heaviness back to a lightsaber with the dark saber feels like, to this poster on Reddit, feels like an homage to the initial intention with the lightsaber, which I really liked.

Yeah. I'm not sure how acrobatic Alec Guinness was in the late 70s. It's a whole hacking maneuver. Really. Love to see Alec Guinness cut a clotunian in half through a table. And then another Reddit user bipolar shooter has this great post called Theory about the Dark Sabres Crystal, semicolon, the Bescar Pearl. Let me just read this to you.

It's entirely a theory, but I just thought it was like a Star Wars novel. The Baskar Pearl. He says, I think that the Dark Sabers Crystal is not a traditional Khyber Crystal that Jedi are Scythus and their lightsabers. My theory is that it's similar and structured to a crate dragon pearl, but form from inside a massive and powerful Mithosaur. After an ancient Mandalorian warrior, a small piece of Bessgar was slowly being digested over a few hundred to thousands of years, eventually forming into a pearl of condensed, weathered Bessar, it could be a very good explanation as to why the Dark Saber is so treasured a Mandalorian culture and why it has

unique properties. The first Mandalorian Jedi could have killed a Mithesore and kept this extremely rare, small, blackened. Bessgar Pearl is a trophy of his victory over such a powerful beast. He then uses the pearl to construct the Dark Saver, forever immortalizing his great triumph and further empowering the might and legacy of the Mandalrians. Entirely fan fiction, but I just love incorporating like Baskar Mythesore. The phrase the Bessar Pearl is why I clicked on this thing at all. I just think that it's just really, because like, I mean, do you think there's a traditional

chiro crystal at the, like, center of this thing that looks unlike every, any other, lightsaber? It's interesting, right? Because the khyber crystal, I mean, the lightsaber blade kind of changes to match what's in the spirit or the soul of the wielder of the blade, right? Which, I don't know what it says about Tarvisla's soul, that he ended up with a black blade. Maybe that's a reflection of the Mando part of his culture. I don't know. But it's certainly a rare color. You don't get a lot of black khyber crystals or blades, which obviously it just looks cool. It's distinctive. It sounds cool. one. Yeah. Right, exactly. So what it says about him or about the wielders of it, I mean, maybe it's

kind of a cursed blade to some extent, right? Most of its wielders don't meet great ends. There is that moment in the Canaan Sabine training session where he talks about the crystal, specifically inside of the Dark Saber. I think it's certainly possible that he could just be speaking in lightsaber Jedi learning generalities, you know, and assuming. But maybe his force connection does like actually sense the crystal thing. Because what he says is, after Sabine says it's heavier than I thought, he says energy constantly flows through the crystal.

You're not fighting with a simple blade as much as you are directing a current of power. Your thoughts, your actions, they become energy. They flow through the crystal as well as become a part of the blade. So maybe he's talking about a literal chiber crystal inside of that saber,

and maybe he's just like, this is what I learned at the temple. Younglings. Am I right? You know? I don't know. Yeah. Yeah.

If I were Mandoo, I mean, the whistling bird is working pretty well for him. the blasters, the wrist launchers, the jetpacks. They've gotten him far. So I'm worried about him. Like if it were you, would you roll down the window of your new, shiny new coop and just drop the dark saber out the window?

I might hang it over the mantle or something. I'm just, I'm not sure I would try to wield it. Blades over mantles, well, someone's going to come for it. I would bury it in the sands of tattooing. Yeah. If you're not holding it, no one can take it from you, presumably, right? you just have to refuse to fight, and then you can hold on to it for a while. Can we do a couple more theory corner things quickly while we're all here that connect to this?

Sure. Very quickly. Is Din going to find a mythosaur or maybe some core Baskar source in the living waters? Like, what did you make of the living waters thing, Ben? Because obviously they say the mines are destroyed, but also we know that there are minds of Concordia. And how much do we love the phrase living waters? So good. That's new canon.

Like, that's not something that we had heard before. That's new. So obviously, it's going to come into play in a big way. It just feels like Din will head there and that will, something crucial for season three will unspool from there, right? But will it literally be a Mithosaur that he rides? The minds may be destroyed, but the waters must still be there. Right?

So, yeah, I would think that will be at the top of his to-do list. Yeah, it feels to me like he's like, I got to go cleanse myself to rejoin my covert. But I think ultimately he's going to be like, hey, maybe I don't want to be a part of that cover. Yeah. I'm all for that. something there. Yeah, he'll learn something there that will lead him in a different direction. I'll fight this mythosaur or whatever. Yeah. The mythosaur mentioned had to have some meaning. They don't exist except in legends and they don't mean the legends hold EU continuity. Right.

Roarings of unusual size? I don't think they exist. It's just incredible stuff. There was also that line that exchange between Bo and Mando in season two when he says that planet was cursed anyone who goes there, dies once the empire knew they couldn't control it. They made sure no one else could either. And Bo says, don't believe everything you hear, our enemies want to separate us, but Mandalorians are stronger together. Feels like something that Mando will discover when he's there on that quest will, like, help solidify the wisdom of what Bo is saying there for him, in contrast to the other things that he's, learned. Another conspiracy corner thing that I'm curious to ask about is the armorer, Ben. This is not a new theory, but it's back on my mind after this episode. This was like a

there's some internet chatter around this in season one of the Mandalorian. Do you think the armorer is a former mall supercommando? Like, because of the points on the helmet, like, that was what mall supercommandos did is like a nod to his Dathamarian heritage. And she knows so much. She knows so much. She knows everything. Now, she could have learned this just from, you know, hanging out with Death Watch on Concordia. that's possible.

But she knows so much. It just like feels like maybe a connection to someone who was wielding the Dark Saper. But again, that could just have been previsla. It didn't have to be a mall. What do you think? Yeah. Part of me kind of hopes we don't find out. I'm kind of okay with not knowing her origin story.

But that one makes sense to me. I just, I love that character. So part of me wants to know how does she know so much and how did she? Listen, this is how we got Book of Boba Fett. I'm saying, I want to know. You turn for so much. much more discipline than I am. I'm like, give me a spin-off.

I need to know. Sometimes we don't need to see under the armor. It's okay. It's more interesting that way. Did she just pop into a Bacta pod? They have the spray already. You just go in the pod. Give us a flashback.

We can answer these questions quickly and then move on. Maybe all that Nysap with the covert has just like sprays her down. And she's like, well. And there's still the question of where did the children come from? How did they decide that they couldn't ever remove their helmet? presumably it was after they survived the nukeing of Mandelaar, maybe. Maybe they all happened to have their helmets on at the time. It's like when your sports team is winning and you have to sit in the same place on the

couch. They're like, to wear those socks. I do that all the time. Exactly. If I like snap in a certain way and an Oriole hits a homeowner, I just keep snapping that way forever. So is that the origin story? I mean, they seem like an offshoot of Death Watch, but at one, at what point did they

become these hardliners, these zealots? So I'd like to know. more about that. And I'd also like to see more and know more about Mandelaar today, as you just noted with what Boketan said, because there's a question of like, do we really want to reclaim Mandelaar at this point? Is it a nuclear wasteland? Like, is it habitable? I know there's symbolic value to reclaiming your homeland, but can you settle down there? Can you terraform it again? Or is it ruined forever? So I don't know. Maybe there's a habitable part. Maybe they can all move underground where the living waters are.

It's a place, not a people, right? It's not a place. If you can build a castle on a lava planet, I feel like you can do anything in stuff. That's a good point. All right, Ben. Thank you, Ben. You're the best.

My pleasure. All right, just a little bit more to say before, basically this is like a two-part episode. Part two is back to tattooing. But there's this dual, the armor is training, Mando, and then he fights Paz, then he gets kicked out. That all happens. I just say something really briefly.

Something I love is that the armor when she's training him, she's training him with her hammer and tongs. That was awesome. And one of my favorite, like, obscure phrase is like, go at it hammer and tongs, which means to go out something like, you know, so she's literally going at it, hammer and tongs with him. I just love that she fights with her smithing tools. That was great. And we, you mentioned already that we saw the flash of, of, um, the, the, Night of a Thousand Tears. I just want to say that, like, immediately, so many people immediately got T2 Judgment Day vibes off of, you know, seeing that. And I think that's the perfect Star Wars way to do another film illusion. Like we talked about some of our issues with like the Vespa kids and people

are like, well, it's a homage to quadrophenia. It is, but it's a bad homage. And I'm like, the T2 homage is fantastic because like it feels like Star Wars, but it also feels very much like this other thing that we immediately identify with. So, like that's a... The other thing I just want to note about this sequence, we already talked about the maybe lack of wisdom of challenging each other to duels, no jet packs over the vacuum of space in the first place when you're down to these numbers.

When I watched this the first couple times, I was really like, why wait until the end of the duel to, because Paz gets the blade, but then he is having an even harder time than Dan and Dan ends up, right? Why wait until the end of the duel to ask about the helmets? Like, why not kind of check that box first before you risk your membership? But subsequently, it's a season one callback.

Yes. Like, really actually enjoying that callback to, I mean, with literally those exact three characters, right? The Arbor Paz and Mando and working to affirm the Creed dangerous though we may think it is as the thing that unites them, right? This connects us. Yeah. So that was, that was actually quite cool. But still, I'd say make that, you know, just maybe ask first. I get it. You're healing. You're working to heal. But like, you know, three people. Also, great use of the word apostate. I love that word. Oh, my God, Joe. So good. Such a good use of apostate and the way Fav says it. Yeah. Oh, great Fav delivery. So good. All right. So then make us a Tatooine. Tatween. Without his ride, he's taking public transportation.

Like Connor Roy complaining about flying commercial. Yes, check his weapons. An odd sequence. A lot of people have noted this. It's a really odd sequence because it's like, it's funny, but then he just gets them back and there's no incident. So it might be, you know, I think you noted the notes here might be a breadcum trail towards something in the future with the pikes having to check some of the I don't know. Something might come up later, but like, you know, it's funny, but it also felt like a little long. But again, this is a 52 minute episode. So they had some room for all of that. It was like it kind of returned me to the Mando season one roots of like loving him and loving the show, but constantly screaming up my TV. Why are you doing this thing? Like don't leave Grogo alone there. What are you doing? Right. And it's like, so didn't does these things from like, why would you do that? It's deranged that he would put the Dark Sabre and like baggage check truly deranged. But yeah, like just the focus on that seemed so intentional that it's like what might, what fruit might that bear? The only things I can think of, and I, you know, I'm sure there are other possibilities, but maybe because we're of course all like waiting for something to not be in there when he opens it.

It's all there, right? So maybe it's just about kind of reaffirming how much he needs a new ride, right? He can't be traveling this way. It's not practical. What a hassle. Yeah, what a hassle. You can't check your weapons every time. Get yourself in that.

me ride, my friend. But maybe one of those things will malfunction in the future. I don't know. That would be, I don't know how fulfilling that would be. And then, yeah, the pike thing, like, we know, we saw the pikes arrive on, like, a similar vessel. So maybe they had to check something. And once Mando is working with boba and fetic, like, maybe he'll say, oh, wait, I had to put,

like, the fucking dark saber. He's like, when they'll get here, they won't have their weapons because they'll still be in baggage claim. So if we do a baggage claim heist, we can get them. I hope the finale ends with a baggage claim heist in most, uh, Isley. Okay. So then we get now with Pellimato. Um, and this, uh, thank you so much for bringing up the stoic conversation we had last week because that was my very first thought. I was like, yeah, this is what you need. You need, if you don't have Grogu and he and whatever, just give us Amy Sedaris. speaking Jawa ease or whatever.

I don't know what the Java language is called. Incredible stuff. I just absolutely loved it. Really fun stuff. A fun progression of Dindjarns. I mean, first of all, a droid parade. We've mentioned, we've done, like, we had a droid parade last week, right? So like, droid parade, Wamparats.

I mean, actually, it's late in the season, but I kind of want to go back in time and create a tattoo between bucket list of words. Just check them off every week. All right, we got a wombrat. Yeah. We got a couple of rombrats in this episode. It was great. Live action.

And in terms of Dingerian's relationship with droids, like showing his progression, like, I like, you know, when he first got there and he was like, get, you know, get your pit droids away for me, like, fuck them. And there's a, there's a tiny moment when Amy Sedaris, like, sort of waves one of her pit pet droids away being like, don't let him see you. Like he doesn't like you. And, but we see him like he doesn't, he doesn't have that attitude anymore. He has grown and evolved.

He's softened up. Thanks to beloved nurse droid IG11 RIP, you know? You know, Tyca will do that to you. He made a real impact. But I, you know, the cute, cute as button interaction between Mando and this Dardley. Oh, my God. Joanna.

I mean, obviously, like the little Grogo head bundle and Din talking about for the family Grogo and I want to go see him, make sure he's okay. Top tier stuff. Seeing BD. A high on the list of joyful experiences as well. Is this BD1 Cal's droid pal from Jedi Fallen Order? Because there's a lot of debate about whether this could be BD or is just another BD unit. Like he's not, he doesn't have the same paint job, right, as BD1 from Fallen Order. But it's not. a lot of time has passed. Like, more than two decades have passed

between Fallen Order and where we are here in the canon. So maybe he's got the paint buffed off, like the N-1. Someone pointed out that they have similar... The foot. Foot, yeah. Yes, the foot drag. Yes, a precious little bubble with his injured foot. And Pelly has that line, Joe, like Tatooine is a garden of many bounties.

So maybe PD-1 is part of that garden of bounties. Very cute. So this is, this is Jedi Fallen Order video game in case people. never played it, but Cameron Monaghan, who played, who's our main character in that video game, Cameron Monaghan of shameless fame. You know, some folks are wondering if he might show up in live action. You know, again and again, this is just the Mandoverse,

trying to draw all of these disparate things in a tighter and tighter net so that, you know, a video game in an animated series and, you know, the Phantom Menace, and think God, the last Jedi get, you know, homages and mentions all in the same sequence. I love it. It was so sweet when B.D. was helping. And, like, at first, when they're working on the N1,

and Dyn's like, I can't see, because BD's so excited, he's moving his head. And so light is making out. It's like, so precious. And then he's so happy later when, you know, he scans the piece and tells Dinn, guide someone where to put it. And Dyn thanks him and tells him,

good job, buddy. Calls him buddy. And he's, like, chirping and booping about, could this BD, BD1 or otherwise, become Dan's new droid companion? You know, there's no Astro-Mec port. Pelly says she pulled out, you know, the astromech port, and we get that delightful Grogu,

perfectly Grogu-sized bubble behind Mando's seat that obviously Grogo will sit in at some point. But B-D's pretty tiny. I feel like he could fit, too. There's definitely no room for bounties, but Grogu and B-D could fit. What do you think? I think both, and here's why.

Here's my cynical reason why. That means they can sell merch. Two toys. Joy toys. Do you want the grogo in the bubble or do you want the beating in the bubble? Do you want them both? Yeah, exactly. There's so much toyetic stuff in this episode.

It's a toy stravaganza. I love it. I absolutely love it. I thought it was really lovely because it's not just toys and droids there for toys and droids sake. It's there because of that stuff we talked about in terms of like home bases. and needing a fast ride to get to your lost son. Do you think, let's close the button on a question you posed earlier. Do you, what do you think we will see next in terms of Dan and Grogu?

Like, I think there are a few options. We could see him next episode, but I feel like no way. I just think that reunion has to happen in the Mandalorian. Maybe I'm an idiot, but I still feel that way. You're not an idiot. It should happen in its own show. But to Alan Seppewel's point, you could have a wedding on an episode of, like, that just said tomorrow, you know?

It's true. I don't know. That just feels like the single most consequential thing that will happen in that show. It would be so stupid if like, not stupid. Maybe it's a way to get people to watch

Book of Boba Fett. You know what I mean? If they're on Twitter next week and they're like, well, glad I took a pass on that because everyone's shitting on it. Can't wait for Mando season three and then they're like,

Groka's back. It's true. I don't know. The off-screen option, I think also is like hard to fathom. I think the only way that would work, like if Dinn came back, and was like, cool, I did it.

I visited my little guy would be if we then got that sequence in the Mandalorian. But I actually think there would be like an uprising if that happened. And we had to wait for that. I just don't think that can. I just, I don't see how that can happen. So then the next two options, and this gets back to the question of like, how will Book of Boba Fett land its own season are din not coming back this season, in which case what happens in the final two episodes, if not that exact conflict.

Maybe the conflict just starts without him. Can you imagine, I mean, or they don't even, I mean, that's the other thing, but I think they brought this up on either the midnight, yeah, the midnight boys were talking about, sorry, I listened to a lot of different podcasts, but like, the men and I boys were talking about this about like, what if they don't do the big showdown with the pikes in this season at all of Boba Fed? I was like. That would be wild. I don't know what the next two episodes would be. But what about, okay, let me throw out one other option. DIN never gets to leave. Like the fact that the Jawa's took that part from the Pike spice rail.

Could the Pikes come and say, this is what I'm holding on to. And basically, Din intends to leave and see Grogo. So we have that promise to hold onto. He's going to try to get back to him. But the Pikes, furious about this theft, come and prevent Dinn from departing. And then it forces that conflict to a head anyway, ties all these threats together. That's what I'm going on. Has everyone ever told you how smart you are?

I think that's, you know, I hope that's true. I think it's really smart. He can't. Oh, God. Just like many of us in the first three episodes, four episodes of Book of Boba Fed, he can't get off Tatween. And so he is now even more invested. Now, his investment in fighting the Pikes is tied to him trying to get back to Grueger,

which is something we were all emotionally invested in. So suddenly we care so much more about the fight with the Pikes. You're a smart person. Before we get to, didn't possibly be grounded forever on Tatooine. just a quick traffic stop in space, just some cops, some space cops. Always a thrill for Kim's convenience fans to see AAPA. Just a genuine joy.

So, Apa, aka Carson Tiva. Carson Tiva. Carson Tiva seems like he was supposed to be part of whatever of Caradun's show. You know what I mean? Because the last time we saw him, he was sort of like walking. And it sort of seemed like this could be the beginning

of a beautiful friendship moment between him and Caradun. So I'm hoping they find another way to wrap him in, you know, if that since scrapped. I want him to be a part of this. And then, uh, read played by Max Lloyd Jones, who was the double for Luke in,

uh, the end of Mando season two. Um, you know, real, real good looking guy. Mark Campbell in the, uh,

handsome, yeah, gallery episode was like, he looks more like me than me. I'm like, he looks a little bit better than you ever did Mark Campbell. Um, but he,

uh, he shows up here as, as a fighter. And I don't know if that's just to like throw him a crumb. Hey, guy, you kept this secret. We're so proud of you. Now you get to fly an X-wing. Here's a role in Boba.

Or did they need him around on set to fill more Luke stuff? And this is like a convenient cover. I like that theory. We got a bad question about that. I think that's a juicy theory. I'm also just going to, we're kind of embedding segments within segments. And I'm just going to tell you right now, he's my pick for Secret Scroll. Oh, he's not mine.

That's great. We have a different one. Oh, yeah. I'll just say mine. My Secret Scroll is that Rodeon kid. Wow. Corruption at the heart of a beautiful, pure moment. Oh, no.

We've covered so much already. We have a few things left. Should we talk about the Moth Gideon of it all? He lives. No surprise, right? More trouble. Yeah. It's like Gus Fring lives.

Yeah, Gus Frings come back. Moth Gideon's coming back. Yeah. I do think it's funny inside of an episode where we saw Dinn, like, slaughter legions with a reckless abandon that he was like, couldn't kill this guy. He had to make sure that justice was served and we went through the proper channels.

It's like, wait, is that how you feel about this? Dyn Jarns, like, do you know how good Giancarlo Esposzino is? Exactly. How could I dare kill him? That's the thing. If it means we get Mav Gideon back, I'm fine with it, honestly.

Let's just, I want more time with that character. Great stuff. Yeah. So Moff Gideon in season three, that's definitely happening. Excited to see it. And I just one last button on the episode before we roll through the rest of the things we want to say is like I like that, you know, it's disappointing not to see Boba in this episode at all. Disappointing and maybe is not the right word, but it is a thing.

But I do love that Pellemote is like, don't worry. I locked everything up tight. And FedEx like, I'm here. You can't keep me out. I'm a cat barkler. I'm an assassin. I'm here inside the walls. That was amazing.

And I also, it makes me think of there were a few lines all actually from Pelly that felt like kind of meta lines to us as an audience. You know how hard it is to find all original parts from way back? I mean, come on, you got to see the potential. At least let me put her together

before you decide what you give me that. And some of that connected to like that prequel rehab thing, but I think some of that feels like it's like to us about Boba, you know? And let's let's put it together. before we decide. What's also true is that Amy Sedaris is allowed to, not everyone's allowed to ad lib in Star Wars, but they let Amy Sedaris ad lib. So, you know, some of the stuff you might have

loved in this episode might just come from Amy herself. She's fantastic. She would do our favorite Easter eggs in the episode. Let's do it. We hit so many already. What haven't we covered? My favorite is the cryogenic density combustion booster that was used to brace the trash compactor open in a new hope. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. I think we already mentioned, like, all the ones that I really liked. Obviously, the KX droids, we think of our guy, K2SO, from Rogue One.

So that's a delight. The Fathier mentioned when she says, Faster and Fathier, which are the creatures in Kanto Bight, a unbeloved sequence of a divisive movie, a movie that I adore. I love that movie. But I have to, even I have to say, Cantobite, maybe not its finest hours. But, like, we've been waiting for a sequel.

trilogy mention here and, you know, here it is. I think the only other things that we haven't hit on, I mean, we mentioned Wizard, shouts to Kittster, all of it is the count, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the Mandalorian that's, she's counting. She's counting in one, two, three, four. Yeah. And I think, um, you know, we, we talked positively about I can bring you in warm, I can bring you in cold.

I got to say, ballsy to bring that tracking fog back. I can't believe they brought the tracking fog back. Do you hate the tracking bomb? They don't make sense. We can't, we can't do this. Okay, we don't have time. They make no. I just can't believe they brought it back.

They make no sense. I spent so much time in the beginning of Mando season one, like, wait. So I just think it's amazing that they resurfaced that again. Anyway, is it mailback time? Let's do mailbacks. David Jowl for a while. They're quite furry. Very free.

A lot of issues. All right, Jomi. Mailback time. Let's get it. Mando! Where are you going to put Grogu in the speeder? Shout out to Chris Ryan. That was a good Chris Ryan.

Mando. Thank you. Our first question comes from Will. And Will asks, what kind of series or movie would you want Bryce Dallas Howard to direct? So a bunch of people are like, hey, give Bryce like a Star Wars,

her own show, much like Deb Chow got all of Obi-Wan after her great Mandalorian work. You know, like, why isn't Bryce who's done now three great episodes in a row. Let's give Bryce something. So I just want to talk about this really quickly. Two things.

I want to take nothing away from Bryce, but I do want to say that when it comes to directing an episode of Mandalorian, much like directing an episode of a Marvel show, you're inside a larger piece of machinery. That being said, I think we have liked the Robert Rodriguez episodes of this show less. Then again, Robert Rodriguez did a great episode of Mandalorian Season 2. So, like, how much a director has control over an episode of Mandalorian

is a real big, question I have and even having watched all of the behind the scenes gallery stuff, I don't have a full answer to that. Again, but I have nothing bad to say about anything that Bryce has done. I think she's done fantastic work. I think, and thank you to ally to women, Steve Allman, for bringing this up on the Middow Boys, that like the two episodes directed by women have been the best of this season of Book of Boba Fett. And this has been like a long time ongoing problem with Lucasfilm, but they're not letting a lot of women direct their Star Wars properties. It was big fight in the fandom. It was

Kathleen Kennedy said some dicey shit around it. So yeah, give Bryce a movie. I mean, this is, and Patty Jenkins movie got canceled. So like, give Bryce an entire freaking movie. I saw some people say that they wanted her to do a solo to, to like pick it up from her dad and do

solo. And I say, we're not going back to solo. Hashton make solo too happen. Let it go. Let it go. Let me go. Anything you want to say about Bryce. Yeah. I have loved the sanctuary of the heiress and return to the Mandalorian. And I think that when we look at through lines across those episodes,

the heiress is, of course, the Bo live action introduction episode. And there was so much Bo, Dark Sabre, Mandelor embedded into this episode that if we are getting Bogdan spin off, if that happens, Bryce has already done some excellent Boe-centric mandolore-centric work, that I think that would be an awesome, awesome pairing. Do the bow show. Do the bow show. Do the bow show. Our second question comes from David.

David wants to know, is the armorer none other than Korky's mom, the long lost, never mentioned, but canonical third cry sister. This is an unbelievable. Unbelievable theory. Corky cries is a terrible name,

but let's just put that out there. So, I mean, one of my favorite quirky-centric theories is that he's the secret love child of Obi-Wan Kenobi and the Duchess Seteen, which I'm obviously partial to. But because I love them so much. The fact that we know that the Duchess and Bo are Corkie's aunts, but don't know anything about Corkie's parents is, I think there might be something here, given the way that the armor spoke about, the fall of House Creece. Like, maybe there's something here. This would be really interesting. It gets back to the larger points we were making earlier

about whether we even, like, want to learn more about the armorer, but I do. So I'm into this. Oh, so many arborer theories. Great stuff. People are big fans. Our last question comes from Brittany.

And Brittany is, she needs to know. Who are you shipping for a future romance story more? Peli and the Jawa or Mazz and Chewy. Okay. Peli said very clearly in this episode. No, I'm working on myself. Thank you very much. So of course it's Mazz and Chewy. I like that wookie.

Maz remains an icon and it's probably the pick for like any question ever. Just incredible. Mas being so horny for Chubakka is one of my favorite things that exists. Everything with Pellia, the Jawa dating. reveal in this episode was just sensational. And I loved that when the Java heard her talking about that and clearly made a move, you know, in the moment, in real time. Just went for it.

Just went for it. Oh, that's okay. I'm working on me right now. I'm working on me. Hey, listen, shoot or shoot. Sometimes you miss, you know, but you rather go 0 for 30 than 0 for 9 because 0 for 9 means you stop shooting. That's exactly.

That's exactly. right, Jomey. You're a product of the three-point era of NBA fandom for sure. Do we have a bonus one that we want to hit here very quickly from an old friend? Let's do the, yeah. I was told he left, but apparently he's still with us. He's still here, like our own force ghosts on our shoulder. Longtime producer, first-time question sender from the homie TD based strictly on Cool Factor only.

Who are your top three coolest Star Wars characters ever? And why is Mando number one? Okay, do you want to do like back and forth basically or I only have two off the top of my head? I'm not actually prepared to really answer

this question. I'll just say the number one coolest Star Wars characters, Hans Solo. I mean, come on. Great. I was going to say Lando Colerstein. Okay.

So it's Lando and then it's Cobb Ban. Jomi, who are you nominating for the top three here? We're going to, we'll think on this one and we'll circle back with our formal replies. But who are you throwing out? I think of the thing about it. Off the dome, it's Lando, Mando, and Han Solo. Like, those are the three dudes you want to hang out with. And so oners. A closet of capes. A closet of cape. Both. Steve was like old and or young Lando. They're

the same guy. It's Donald Glover who turns it to Billy T. Williams. Cool across all timelines. A closet of capes. A droid girlfriend who then gets turned into his shit. Lipa, then get stolen by Hans Solo. I'm going to throw out Sabine. Graffiti artist, Mandalorian Warrior, fun, really fun for one of Joe's favorite things, which is tracking the evolution of hairstyles

across a particular canon. She looks like she's wearing like a bunch of little scrolls on her head. And I don't mean scrolls. I mean scrolls. A real, real tight curl on Sabine. But how's her cape collection? She's got the custom designed Mandalorian armor that she, like, painted to reflect her personality.

It's fucking incredible. I love it. Very cool. Not as cool as a closet of cable. So. Oh, man. Good stuff. All right.

No one mentioned Bobafat. Sad. But perhaps a fitting end of this episode. I put Fenwick on the long list. I really like FedExhand a lot. It's been a tough five weeks for the boy. Yeah. So.

Yeah. All right, we have completed our quest, and now we may join your covert as you rebuild. And as we wrap today's episode, this is the way. Thank you to Steve Allman, whose edits are as smooth as a gunk skumpjack. Using today's episode, Arjuna Ram Kapal, our armorer for his additional production work on this episode. And Jomi Adan flying through the tweets and the memes in his new N1 star. fighter for his work on the social for this episode. Be sure to head back into the Ring of Verse on Monday for our peacemaker mid-season

check-in and then on Wednesday and Friday for our instant reaction and deep dive pods on the Book of Boba Fett, Chapter 6. But first, we've got to pay a visit to my little friend. Feels like every product claims real protein these days. But real doesn't start on a label. It starts at the source. Like real California milk from California farm families. It's real dairy delivering high quality, complete protein,

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