The Ringer-Verse - ’The Boys’ Season 5, Episode 3 Reactions | The Midnight Boys

Episode Date: April 16, 2026

Our boys return to break down The Boys, Season 5, Episode 3. They discuss the incredible coincidence of Homeland’s godly hallucinations happening this week of all weeks, and break down the nuances of his epic father-son face-off with Ryan. Then, the guys share their instant reactions to Kristoffer Borgli’s 'The Drama.'(0:00) Intro(7:25) Spoilers ahead(8:37) ‘The Boys’ Season 5, Episode 3 instant reactions(56:30) ‘The Drama’ reactionsHosts: Van Lathan, Charles Holmes, Jomi Adeniran, and Steve AhlmanProducers: Jamie Yukich and Devon BaroldiAdditional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome into the Ringiverse. This is, of course, The Ringers Nexus podcast, feed for all things. Fandom, we are Steve, the architect Alman, the builder and tinker of things. Jomey, explainer, dinner on. You've got questions. He's got answers. Old Man Van, he of the receding resurgent, hairline, Coke, baby Chuck, the 24-carrier Closer. Together, we are known as of the midnight, boys.

We'll be right back after this. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Trimphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease

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episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need Weather Tech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need WeatherTech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. All right, falls on socials. That's at the Midnight Boys' Pod on Insta.

TikTok at Ringerverse on Insta, Twitter, Facebook, and TikTok. Jomi, how would you explain the relationship between the Ringerverse feed and the individual Midnight Boys feed? Like give people explain it. Yeah, it's my job. It's my job to explain stuff. So the Ring ofverse holds many podcasts under the umbrella

Midnight Boys House of R Yeah Button Mash Button Mash all exists within the Ring of Verse Hub Gotcha

That's where you can find All the content Relating to all the stuff that we cover Video games movies, TV everything that we love We hold sacred air

fandom is under the Ring of Versus umbrella Now House of R and the Midnight Boys That's us That's where you find Van

Steve Charles, me, just having time. Like these guys saw on the last clip we did with the China Mine Mail. People love that, by the way. That's the kind of stuff. People said I sold. They say, you were saying,

do you want to admit? Because Falcon wasn't one where I'm like, you're just doing this for the content. That's a lot, yeah. So here's the thing. And here's why. It was so obvious that. Clip farming there.

So here's why that's like not incorrect. Because you, not only can you not put a four-minute clip on YouTube as a short, you can't, if you don't, if the clips are under, three minutes, their clips are over three minutes on Instagram, they can get recommended to people's feeds. So

that does not work for my agenda. All right. So now that we know this, I'm not doing the next one. Why would you do? Because because that's not because I'm not. I am not here to be manipulated

by Jomi the algorithm, new name. Jomey the algorithm adenoron. Jomey the algorithm adenoron, which is a better name. Yeah. Jomi, the algorithm is so good. Jomey the algorithm, Adenoron.

He's at the end of the Matrix. He now worshiping the algorithm. It's under three months. Who are you over three months? For in the midterms, Jomey. Who do you think? Claude. Jesus Christ.

We're on YouTube. Like comments. I'm about to use Claude in a second. Like, comment, subscribe, share. You can watch every Midnight Boys and every house of our episode on YouTube. com backslash at Ringiverse Programming. Okay.

On Friday, But MASH discusses pragmata and mouse P.R. Mouse P.I. for hire. We've already didn't now look now. I thought that was last week. That was last week. Maybe we were wrong. That's what was in the... It was in the same thing.

He didn't do mouse P.I. for hire. Now, okay, mouse P.I. for hire. So, like, that game, once again, we talked about it, the versatility of mice. So it's like a mouse detective. Yeah. Do whatever they want. That's what the fuck I'm talking about. Okay.

On Thursday, House of Art, does a mid-season check-in with Jerry Dibble. When are we doing the midseason check-in with Dary Dibble? We are coming back, I believe, next week. We could get that. Yeah. Good, exciting. Oh, you know what?

Chosen's been good. I want to have a guest on the show. I want to ask you guys. Oh, okay. You know, the young lady that does the web series, we've talked about this before. The comic book. Comic books or web series.

I've been talking to her. She wants to come on the show and talk about her web series. Do I have, is that a good thing for the minute of boys? You want to have her on? Yeah, let's do it. Like have her on talk about the web. It's a really great web series. It takes place thinking of a comic book shop.

It's very funny. It's very cool. All right. And we want to have her on the show. She's talk about it and get you guys all excited about it. What's it called for the people that don't know? The name of the web series is the comic shop. Her name is Jomey, why don't you?

Cheyenne. Her name is Cheyenne. Well, because you bailed and then brought it back. The last name is. She's Nigerian. She's Nigerian. She's not Jerry. How do you say the last name?

She's like Jian. And Wulu. It's not hard. Shian, Iwulu. First of all, let me take out something. Oh, hold on for a second. Wait a second. For a second.

Now, I didn't know about this web series, but one of my friends from TMZ is in this. Now, I don't know if it's one of my friends from TMZ or if it's her sister because it's twins. They got two twins. You can't tell? No, I can't tell twins apart. But it's like two twins.

Sheney Cole, like one of them, one of the Cole sisters worked at TMZ for a little while. Okay. They're really cool, bubbly, smart, talented ladies. But it's called The Comic Shop. I want to have her on so she can talk about her web series because I think it's cool. That's cool. I think it's awesome. I think she has like a ridiculously bright future.

So we'll have her on and talk about it. Okay. That's great. All right. And Jomi, there's nothing wrong with it. Now, there's nothing wrong with you are Nigerian. so to help the pronunciation of the name there's nothing wrong with it.

It's five letters, my man. You could have done it. I believe in you. Now, if it's in the name of not getting it wrong. You would have been like, hey, yo. Yeah. It's in the name of not getting it wrong. Yeah.

It's the name. I actually think Van did the respectful thing. Right. Like, that's what we be telling white people like, hey, yo, don't be like butcher in the fucking name. Exactly. Sabrina Carpenter. Is that your culture?

Well, that wasn't even wrong. She did nothing wrong. She did nothing wrong. How's that time? What does Sabrina Carpenter do now? Nothing. That Coachella. And she was just like, is that your coach?

We got to get into it. We got to get to the boys. We got to get to the boys. Right. You got to get to the boys. On today's show, the Midnight Boys are doing the latest episode of the boys, episode three. We're also giving some thoughts on the drama.

This is a Chuck clear-out. We're going to do... No, no, no. Once a month, we're going to let Chuck cook. Chuck's time of the month? The damn. Last episode, you were like, yo, we got... Don't do that.

Don't do that. Come on. That's the name of the fucking... That's the name of it, Steve. Chuck's Time of the Month. Steve, I love you so much. That's Chuck's Time of the Month. That's why you keep me around, really.

Chuck's Time of the Month is the name. You being like, hey, yo, next week we all got to, hey, yo, Charles, we're clearing out so you can talk about the drama. Because this is, because this is the deal. Like, we talked about how much you loved Conclave. You were talking about how much you love Conclave? I could tell that Conclave was a release for you because you were watching like, fuck Agatha. But then, like, you had to, you wouldn't watch Conclave, and it was great. By the way, Concliffe was.

great. It was awesome. The Boys is kind of like, it's a really crowd-pleasing movie. It almost felt like a fandom movie when you were watching. We'll talk about that a little bit later. Yeah, sure.

But there's a lot of stuff to cover. Chuck's time of the month. We'll talk about it later. But this is going to be a spoiler-filled episode of the boys and the drama to begin our reactions. We once again bring you the Midnight Manifest, talking about all the need to know stuff in this episode.

Chuck, take it away. All right, this is your Midnight Manifest for episode three of the final season of the boys. Every one of you sons a bitch is directed by Karen Gaviola, written by Ellie Monaghan. At a press conference, Homelander announces to the world that Soldier Boy is his father, setting off a media storm. Thanks to the compound, V1 in his vein, Soldier Boy is immune to the virus and immortal. Realizing this is his way to gain immortality and save himself from the virus,

Homelander sends his minions on a quest to find the surviving vows of the compound. At the same time, Homelander has a vision where Madeline assures him that he's the Messiah. The boys team up with Stan Edgar to find the final whereabouts of V1, but are intercepted by the deep black noir and the rest of Homelander's goons. Meanwhile, Butcher reunites with Ryan and convinces his pseudo-son that the only way to kill Homelander is for Ryan to lure his father out into the open and ambush him with the virus.

When Ryan realizes this would be a suicide mission, Butcher assures him that he'll also sacrifice himself. Ryan confronts Homelander after learning from Butcher that the leader of the seven raped his mother. Homelander beats his son near to death with Butcher arriving too late to stop it. That has been your midnight manifest for the boys.

All right, Van. And let's walk us through the third episode of the final season. Okay, so let's start off. Two things I want to start with kind of get you guys is take on them. Number one, the first thing we see is Ryan. Yes. We knew that we would see Ryan. It's a huge story thread, kind of the one thing that really, over the last couple of seasons of the show,

tethered butcher and homelair to each other more than ever. But we see that Ryan is full-on killing. He's full-all murdering people in order to protect themselves. and hide where he is. Now, interesting to me, that we always felt like once Ryan started down that road, that there would be no way to kind of pull him back from that, that once he became homelander in terms of not valuing human life,

that there would be no way he would just careen down the road of taking his father's place. But it seems like the show plays with that tension, that that's not what's happening to him. When you first saw him killing, Did you expect to get Ryan fully mutated into Homelander? Or were you looking for kind of the facets in this show that will pull him back to his humanity? I think based off everything from last season to your point

in the couple seasons, I think they were always going down evil Superboy lane. But then I kind of just realized I was like, oh, there's not a lot of narrative potential there in terms of like for a season-long TV, which is like the only thing that is still, I think what was interesting about this episode is the only thing that is connecting Butcher

to his humanity still is Ryan because Ryan reminds him of his deceit's wife. And similarly, the only thing that's really tethering Homelander to his humanity is Ryan. And I think the crux of this episode and the most interesting thing about this episode, but I think the season is that both Butcher and Homelander kind of crossed the final line

where Butcher is essentially asking a child to kill himself for the cause and Homelander is beating his son to death and I was like, oh, okay, is this Kripke and co

basically being like there's no coming back for these two monsters? Because that was a point in the episode where I'm like, oh yeah, it's kind of once you beat your own kid on screen, you're just like, Did that scene surprise you? Steve, like when he goes, when he actually asked Ryan

to, like, kill himself? I didn't know, because you know that the virus has to kill him, but I was still surprised that Butcher was willing to go to that point. It's an interesting setup for Butcher to seemingly ask this of him. And I wasn't necessarily surprised because I know that Butcher goes low at every chance that he gets. But what I'm interested in seeing him, like, fight that every once in a while.

and you don't see it until the end when he kind of realizes what he's done, I doubt he's going to regret it because I'm interested in the idea that other shows where one like linchpin character that ties these two forces together,

Homelander and Butcher, usually they would like try to be pulling him to each other's side like they would in previous seasons. Now they're just using, they're just being used as a cudgel to like get at one another.

I'm curious how long Ryan lasts if that just gets, like I, I foresee Ryan kind of like flaming out in some way that makes both Homelander and Butcher go at each other in a more extreme way. And so I wasn't exactly surprised that Butcher got that low because in my opinion, I think Homelander actually stepped a bit farther beyond the pale. And the Jesus thing, like, regardless of current events. How in the world? How do they do this every time?

How in the world? I mean, they got symptoms right? No, I mean, listen, when you don't think the real world could go any farther, it don't, like, the boys thinks like, oh, we could go here and the real world goes, actually, we can also get this crazy. I really don't think it's anything more than that. It's just like, we live in the worst time. But, like, if you're creepy and go and you see the Jesus thing, literally days.

I got to do something, guys. I got to see if Laz and Lonzo will pick the phone up. Do they go pick up the fall? I don't know if Mother's Milk will pick the phone. on up for us right now. But when you saw the Jesus stuff in this episode, and if you guys haven't been paying attention, you're the reason you're the fucking problem.

Donald Trump posted an AI image depicting himself as Jesus. The same week that on the boys, Homelander, is contending with this Jesus and God complex that he now has. Not the first time that's happened, by the way. What was that episode?

It was supposed to be called Assassimation Run. Right. and it wasn't caught that because of certain events. Certain events that happened around the same time. I feel like somebody out there has the scripts. I think Eric Kripke came from the future and was like, guys, here's what we're going to do. Nah, man. Let's see if Mother's Milk will pick the phone up, because I just want to ask them about this.

You know, I had other questions, too. Let's see if you'll pick the phone up. What up, sir? Second ring. That's the homie. You're on the podcast right now, bro. Listen. I already knew it.

We did. We have a question. Van don't just call me. We want you on for the finale, but I have a question. How does the show continue to predict stuff? The Homelander God stuff in episode three comes out the exact same week that Donald Trump posts an AI image of him as God. Is Kripke talking to Trump? Is Kripky psychic?

Like, what's going on in the room where they get this stuff so right? Bro, I felt the exact same way when we dropped a homelander meme working at Vaught Burger. And that was the same week that homelander, that Trump, I mean, same person basically, that Trump worked at McDonald's. Remember that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was the same exact week. Whatever they're smoking in our writer's room, I have no idea. But it's some good shit, bro, because we've been literally on point.

Even season four, we almost weren't able to air an episode because it was talking about assassinating the president. And it was during the time when Trump had that assassination attempt. Right. So there just been some really eerie coincidences, not just in the material, but also in the timing. that have just aligned, like, ridiculous. It's ridiculous. All right, before we let you go,

I just need you to tell us, beat by beat, what happens in the finale? Okay, yeah, here we go. No, man, listen, you guys have been awesome. I love watching your fan theories. I love watching y'all predict stuff. Sometimes y'all are so on point that I can't even comment. Like, I just got to pretend, like, hit the light.

I don't even like the post. because I'm too on point. But yeah, man, I mean, I appreciate the love. And yeah, man, when the finale comes, we definitely got to run it back. Oh, for sure. Absolutely. We've been covering the show the entire time. Yeah, we want to have you in studio if you, you know, if you, if you're in town.

Like, have you in studio, talk to you, get the whole deal. Well, we appreciate you, though, brother. Absolutely. Let me know, too, man, because if we got some of the guys in town, then we can just all just mob up there together. That would be awesome. That would be awesome. All right, man. I'm hit you up later.

All right, peace. Bye. Talk to you. Peace. Peace. Shout out Las Alonzo. Alonzo. A little quick deal.

I want to ask you something real quick. Yeah. The Soldier Boy thing. Remember we talked about it on the last episode. Soldier Boy comes back to life at the end of episode two. We thought he was dead. He doesn't really come back to life. It turns out that he's not dead.

Now we know that at first, I don't think that you wanted him to maybe die or you felt like. No, no, no. I more so felt like you don't bring an actor like that. into a series and you don't have someone where you're having a whole spin-off show about him. And also, Soldier Boy is such an interesting character. It's almost like outside a butcher. To me, the most fascinating character on the show. Just because, like, man out of time who is Homelander's father, I honestly think

they walked into a really interesting story about, like, now this is a generational story about, like, whiteness and power and breaking, like, not. to use an overused phrase, but generational curses. And that's why I was like, no, yeah, you can't kill off Soldier Boy that early. And that's what in the premiere, those first two episodes, that's what I was bumping up against where I was just like, if you can predict anything with the boys, I'm just like, they're really not going to kill anybody off if there's more meat on the narrative on. Right.

And it turns out that that was a device to introduce us to compact V1 to Compile V1. Now we know that Soldier Boy's immortality and he was able

to resist the virus because of Compound V1 so they used him kind of as a little McGuffin or device not necessarily

McGuffin now the Compact Compound V1 is a McGuffin like do does that did they

like narratively pay that choice off to bring them back and then have them you know the whole deal yeah I have a question I have a question kind of for that because that felt like a little rushed, in my opinion,

about like, oh, we have a brand new virus and we have a brand new thing to adapt to that seemingly could be seen as like, okay, we got to narratively kick this MacGuffin or like plot point down the road a little bit. What do I mean? To solve this. Now we have another problem to solve. It's classic boys where it's like I think there's two ways to make kind of like a final season of TV, which is just like we are barreling towards a conclusion.

And we are not, like, saving any gas. Like, we are, like, everything is happening versus, like, this is a more traditional network TV, which is, like, the boys is very good at, like, giving them a new mission. Yeah. Every single episode, giving a new McGuffing. So it's like, it's not necessarily that the V-1 thing didn't work for me. It was just more so I'm just like, okay, this is just another thing that you need the boys

that can give you two episodes of story and save the big stuff for the penultimate episode and finale. only that, it's like they have a solution to the virus, right? The whole thing was like the virus it kills all the soups and all this. And you see even the characters like Kimiko and Anigo, like maybe

that could work for us. If we take the V1, could we survive the thing? Because ultimately that's where it goes. You put the virus out there, you kill Homelander, you kill all the bad soups, and hopefully if you've taken the V1, you survive. I think that's like the big idea. It's not less, it's not much of

McGuffin is can we save the live? of the superheroes we care about. Okay. Now, let me ask you guys this. So this entire time, we realized that both Stormfront and Soldier Boy were really well preserved. Soldier Boy a little bit different because he was in the ice for a little while. Right. So you could use that as an explanation as to why he's not aging.

However, I do think that it was interesting and I would love to, like, talk to Eric about this, Eric, because me and Joni hung out with him. That's our guy. Jomey was talking to everything. Remember that day? That was cool. We talked to a bunch of the JimV. The whole GMV situation.

Y'all don't want to fuck with us. You don't ever want to fuck with us. You don't ever want to fuck with us anymore. We have to talk about this. We have to talk about the fact that you are too in love and you are too much of a man about town. I've been hearing about you. From who?

I've been hearing about you swinging your shalely around Los Angeles. Whoa. Okay. You guys don't want to hang out with me and Jomey anymore. All right. Now, Jomey's getting to this point now, too. You know what? I'm alone.

Nobody comes to the crib anymore. Bozeman hears you guys' voices. On the thing, and Bozeman's like, whatever. Like, you went out with the love of your life. You guys went on a vacation. Normally, that would have been time spent at my house. Okay, you're mad that I took my girlfriend out on a international tour? I'm not mad at all.

I'm not mad. I'm not mad. It's a lot of fun. I saw you guys having a lot of fun. You guys are having fun. Don't put in the newspaper. I was mad on. I was a little upset for somebody's having fun without it.

No, I'm saying. What I'm saying is, I'm saying is, things have changed. And this summer, we got to get shit back right. Reassemble the crew. I feel like we will. I've seen you. Right. And you should be ashamed of yourself.

Yo, we're ashamed of you. Butcher. Stop being a butcher, bro. So I thought it was interesting. And like I said, I would be interesting to ask Eric, whether or not they went, okay, this is the explanation for why Stormfront and Soldier Boy don't get any older

because they have a different version of the compound V. Or if they had this in mind the entire time. If they had this in mind the entire time because this also, when you think about it, he's based on Captain America. Right. And in Marvel,

the Super Soldier Serum has had diminishing returns ever since Erskine's original Super Soldier Serum work on Steve Rogers. My question is, why don't they ever bring up the immortality before? Like, did I miss that? Like, I don't know.

They didn't directly bring it up, but they brought it up insofar as when we realized Stormfront was so old that she used to be Liberty. They didn't say necessarily that she had a different version of the serum, and that's what made her so old, but they did bring up the fact

that she was around in like the 50s and 60s or 40s or 40s or whatever. I just thought that like maybe she had slowed aging. Like even immortality, I'm like, Stormfront can still get, can still be killed. And in the world of comics, you can kind of yada yada that and just like, oh, she's so powerful. She can't age that, that quickly or something like that. Like, we're used to those things.

Yeah, I imagine. Or we assume that it was going to apply to all of them. Sure. That they all were going to live for a very, very long time, all the soups would. I mean, not really because remember Aetre, like, his heart was messed up, right? Like, the V, like, that's why he was transporting the V1 in season one, right? So I think, like, it's something that they've seeded throughout the first couple. first couple seasons, but this is the first time where I actually like addressing it full on.

So do you guys moving on to kind of like the boys part of this, Dan Edgar, we were kind of talking about the connection of the boys and Generation V or Gen V. And like this was the episode where I was like, oh, maybe not having these characters in it is starting to become distracting because people are pointing to like, well, Marie, is with you when you're doing this where she's off there. She's like, yeah, I talked to her yesterday, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like oh, this was the first

where I was like, I could see kind of the stitching of like you're trying to kind of connect GenVe, but maybe they'll show up in the finale, but you keep referencing characters that are not showing up. Well, it's already there. That's already connected. So I actually like when, when comic books and shows do that. So it's already

connected because you're in the bunker. So that bunker was established in GenV. Sure. So the connection is in the fact that they don't have to explain to you why Sand Eger is there. So, like, but they do have to explain to you, either with a line or with a mention,

why Marie isn't. That's fair. Because at the end of that season, they had basically said, like, she's a superhero that can go toe to toe with Homelander. So there is a level I'm like, oh, is this something that's going to come back

in the finale? or is this because we're not getting we probably aren't getting another season of Gen V is just kind of a dangling plot thread at this point. There's a lot of game left for that though. Yeah. There's like what?

There's still like five episodes left and I think that like you said Marie Moreau like her big thing is worth like she can go one-on-one Homelander. Like if we're going to see her for the first time I wouldn't like to be some little bit part where she's like coming around to Stan Edgar's thing like if we want to see her like

Yeah, but she also don't want her to be like the final thing that shows up as like the hail Mary to defeat Homelander with like little to no context, right? Little to know context to who? I mean, unless you're not watching GenVee. Right, that's the thing. And now, and then you have the required reading conversation again.

You know what I'm saying? No, it was just more so I was just like there's a lot of GenV. There was a lot of GenV DNA in this episode. And I was wondering, I'm just like, is that where Annie's flying off to at the end of the episode? Because she has a relationship with them. Right. And they can't get hurt like Huey can.

And so, like, I mean, her whole thing was like, oh, Huey, you almost died. I can't put you in danger. I'm going to leave. Maybe she's going to go see the Gen Vee kids. I don't pop as easy. Also, Zoe, we have to see, we have to catch back up with Zoe because what happened to Victoria, you know, Victoria Newman getting pulled apart by Homelander is such a big deal. The bunker, a lot of times in this show, what ends up happening is the stuff that's going on

with the boys just takes a gigantic backseat to what's going on with Homelander and what's going on at Vaught and the 7 because it's such a crazy world and the boys almost seems like that's the real world and the Homelander Vaught world that seems like the more fantastical sometimes more interesting world. In this episode didn't really feel that way to me. The bunker was incredibly interesting. Number one, because of the relationship that we didn't realize was happening between Ryan and Zoe, how would Zoe, like, relate to them being that butcher killed her dad?

And then the introduction of Maverick, who is translucent son, which gave Huey his own guilt. Because, like, Huey gets a pass a lot of times in the show for being, like, the moral guy, a guy would know red in his ledger and all of that stuff, but he actually has some. And we, what, the first kill, right?

Yeah, the first season. When they're doing the previously on the boys, and I saw the transist scene, I was like, I wonder what that's about. Like, we, like, this is like the first thing that happens. And then once the pan over at Mavericks over there, I'm like, ah, he's going to have to, he's going to have to own up for this one. Well, I think the interesting thing is, and I'm, I think it's going to be a season long project,

is obviously they are introducing for all of the members of the boys, like, okay, what is our role in this? What is, and it's like, obviously Huey's the person who even Starlight sees it is like, I think it's actually Huey and Mother's mom. are like, how can we stop this cycle of violence? Like, we've killed all these soups. We've done all this stuff. And how far have we actually gotten? And it seems like Huey, and it even seems like Kimiko.

Like, there's a really good scene with Kimiko and Frenchie where Frenchie is just like, we could travel the world for the rest of our lives and never staying in one spot. And she's kind of like, but what about settling down? What about kids? And Frenchie doesn't want to bring kids to this world. So I think that's also emotionally, to me, the most interesting part of this episode is like all of the characters are either like, if you're butcher, if you're Starlight, they're just like, hey, we've done so much. Mission is getting rid of Homelander. Fuck whatever happens after that.

And you got people like Huey and Kimiko and Mother's Milk being like actually what, like, what world are we actually saving? That right there to me is the through line, at least. so far of the entire season. Yeah. The entire season is who is resigned to their fate and who is approaching and wanting more. Like, Homelander wants to ascend to Godhood, something that we hadn't even considered for him before, right?

When other members of even the Vod, like they just want to rule this world and maintain corporate power. Like Stan Edgar and Homelander are in two different places. Stan Edgar is talking about the durability and sort of eternal, I guess, is internality? How do you describe something that's like durable for eternity? I don't know. I'm looking for a more flowery word.

But what he's talking about is that corporation and corporate power is intractable, that it will never move. Yeah, yeah. It is the only thing. It always must be fed. Right. So he's resigned to that. Yeah.

Whereas Homelander seems like he's trying to bring about a new world order that is greater than that. Like a Jesus Christ millennial king. I mean, he's like a super supremacist. Right. So like even those two guys within that faction of people have two different views of what should happen. And that's the same thing that's happening inside the boys. Half of them want the battle to be about killing Homelanders.

The other half of them want to rid the world of this type of evil and then live in a new world. I think like as a show goes through like a final season, it does a thing where like it brings bad characters and it like kind of it wants to wrap it up in a nice little pretty. They talk about in episode one how that's hard. But I think through three episodes, the show's doing a really good job of presenting itself as a final season. Everybody's got to deal with the reckoning of their actions. Huey with Zoe and with Maverick, they get back to the little lab and Samir's like, you guys lied to me. Like you guys came in here and asked for my help, but you didn't tell me not only my daughter was alive, but that Victoria was killed by butcher and you all just roll with it. I think the show, especially for the characters we care about,

I think the show is doing a really good job of, like, rapping, like, not like finishing the storyline, it's not a lot of game left, but pivoting to where, like, all the stuff that they've done over the last five, four and plus seasons, they have to deal with it, and they have to, like, like you said,

like, like, look themselves in here and be like, how do we move past us? How do we move forward? I think he's doing a great job of that. I mean, if we go back to the Homelander, I think the most death writing for Homelander is honestly the most simple, where it's like,

Homelander reminds us of Trump. He wants to oppress people, but he wants their adoration. He wants their respect. He wants them, like, godhood. Where it is just like, he wants two things at the same time. He's just like,

I want you guys to love me, but I don't want you to have free will. And it is like, at every point in this episode or through this season, I'm just like, Anthony Starr is just doing an amazing job of like, he's right up at the precipice of getting what he wants

and feeling happy and it's still not enough. Yeah, it's never enough. And there's always something that will like push that carrot a little bit farther away from him that will make him go farther. Like it's like even at the press conference,

it's so funny where it's like, okay, Homelander for as long as we've known him, has wanted to know about where he comes from and his lineage, and he has his father there, and his father is finally getting this moment where they've re-ran history and he's the hero. And the minute that

the spotlight is taking off homelander, he has to reorient himself. Where it's like he wants the love of his father, but he also wants his father to be under him. Maybe I'm too TV-pilled. But in that moment, I need you guys to stay with me here and follow with me as a brother. I felt real succession vibes

in the sense that he reminded me of Jeremy Strong's character, in succession where there are times you see like he's got you got some juice you know what's his name uh shiv roman what's the other Kendall Kendall yeah i forgot Kendall like you can't like he's got some juice like he when he operates he'd be like okay cool but as soon as his dad's in the room they cowards yeah completely cowardice and in that moment you see like that's his Logan Roy. Yeah.

And when his dad looked at him and was like, you're going to die, you're going to weather, I'm going to still be here, I'm going to be in charge. You could just completely see him just like shrivel up in his body. It was incredible. So I think fathers and sons is,

that's really what this episode of the show is about. But that's so real. Like, when my boss was still living, he would always do this thing, right? To where, and I don't know if he was doing it on purpose or if he was just that nigger like this. He would always do this thing to where he would just like slightly one-up me. And it wouldn't be like even on purpose.

Just like to remind you, he was slightly one-up me. Like, went out one time, I had a baseball game. I was not a really good pitcher. And I stopped pitching after the ninth grade. But I had one game where I struck out like seven guys, right? Seven guys and like three in a one. What were you throwing? Huh?

What were you throwing? A four-seamer and a cutter. That was it. I was on my Grammatic shit. Four seamer, not a lot of Velo, but I could locate it.

But four seamer and a cutter. I had a, like a, like a, a dainty little cutter. That would just move off a little bit. That's what my dad, and I,

and I'm, good on lefties? Did you strike out lefties? It was not a lot of lefties that you're throwing against. Like, you wouldn't have to throw a lot of lefties like in high school.

Okay, because that's advantageous for them. Like a ton of lefties, right? You're not really throwing a cutter. But you could, but you could throw it against righties and have it move into the plate.

And you can throw it against lefties a little bit if you wanted to paint, right? And throw it off the plate a little bit. My cutter, like, had some little movement with it. I was just obsessed with it because of Greg Maddox. Anyway, so I have this great game. I strike out a bunch of guys or whatever. And dad goes,

hmm, boy, you look good out there today. Boy, you look good. Say, I want to, Daddy didn't want to show you something when we get back to the house. Daddy want to show you something. My dad pitched in college, right? Pitches. Like, he's like, dad wants to show you something to get back to the house. He's like, don't, don't take stuff off.

You either get your bat or I want to show you something when we get to the house. We go in the backyard. And he was like, just, he goes, just hit the ball. No mound, no nothing. No nothing. We go in the backyard. We're in the backyard in the suburb. So if he throw me some shit and rocking it, man, I'm going to be riding shit.

He's going to be hitting cars. Yeah. Oh, like, he's going to be going to be a neighbor. And he was like, don't worry about that because you're not going to hit the ball. God, wow. Okay. He was like, don't worry about that. He's like, I want to show you how to throw this 12-6.

And it wasn't even called a 12-6 right there. But he threw a big looping curve. My father, we were not a V-Lo family. My father had no... We were not a V-L-O-Family. He was just a junk baller. He was just like a guy who could move the ball around. Crazy stuff.

And, like, got the cigarette in his mouth. And he is... The ball is just dying. Like, it's just, bro, I can't even... It just goes soul. Bro, the ball is just fucking dying. It's getting there. I'm like, I got this nigga.

Bip! And he's like, ha ha, shit. And he's like, and he's like, stand there. He's like, don't take it off your shoulder. He ain't going to be able to do nothing with this. You ain't seen nothing like this. They don't throw this no more. Okay, let me show you this.

Boom, he throws it, screwball. Bam, bam, bam. I get frustrated. My mom is laughing. Like, I come back in the house and I'm like, yo, why he had to do that to me? You had a great day. It was like, the best thing in your baseball career

and he's like, he don't. Now, now she's a. I was saying my pitching career. It actually made me stop pitching. But like, and so, and so, but what I'm saying is he just, he, he got, it was under the guise of trying to teach me like more pitches, which he didn't teach me how to throw not one of them motherfuckers. Right.

But he just wanted to let me know, wasn't quite there yet. Right. But is it that what, you know, athletes always like, yo, sometimes my dad or a mentor had to show me like, oh, you feel hot, there's another level to go. Yeah. So that's the kind of thing that... But you could have waited until the next day. Yeah, you could have...

You could have let me live in the fact that I was up there killing them, niggas from San Amos. You should have bunted. You should have had the bun out there, bro. I wasn't trying to blunt, nigga. I was trying to sit some across the idea. I was trying to make... I was saying I'm the man now.

But also one thing when you're talking about with Soldier Boy that I think connects back to Stan is... Stan's telling Mother's Milk essentially that, like, the real immortality is corporations in capitalism. And what I think it mirrors the conversation

that Soldier Boy has with Homelander because what he's saying is like I represent an American ideal at a time where things, they weren't less complicated but it's just like, hey, we could pitch all a narrative

about what masculinity is American might, good versus evil, and what I think is so funny about the conversation that Stan is avic and Soldier Boy is avic, It's like, Soldier Boy is just like, hey, I'm what you're trying to be and never can be. I've literally been preserved in ice, like metaphorically, where it's like, you want an uncomplicated life. You want to think like me where I'm just like, Soldier Boy is not thinking of what he said.

Like, he's like, I don't care about racism. I don't care about any of this shit y'all talking about. I would be here for fucking ever. To that point, Soldier Boy also, there's some things that surprise him. Remember, Soldier Boy is surprised that the president bends to. Will of Homelanders. Yeah. Because in Soldier Boys Day, that's not how it was.

In Soldier Boys Day, as powerful as what he was, he still had to be subservient to the American political machine that deployed him. It's not like that anymore. What rules America now are corporations, very delicate little criticisms that are baked into the show. Back to the fathers and sons thing, though. Think about the father and son messages that you have here in this show. Thought about this while I was watching.

Number one, you have the revenge of Maverick. for the death of his father translucent. You have Soldier Boy and Homelander. Soldier Boy now kind of trying to figure out how he exists

as both the father to this grotesque thing but also like secondarily to him he eventually fuck somebody who was in sort of a, not a sexual relationship

but some sort of symbiotic relationship to Helmander. He takes something from him. Right? You have Butcher talking to Ryan about the fact that butcher killed his father.

Yes. Right? And then you have Soldier Boy and Ryan. You have fathers killing sons. Hughie also mentions how he killed his dad. How he killed his dad. You have like legitimately a theme of this show, this particular show, episode three, is whether or not sons have to kill their fathers or whether or not fathers have to kill their sons.

I mean, and even like it's not a father and son, but even if you think about Mother Smoke's journey this season, it is about a father. removing himself from his family because he thinks all I bring to them is pain. Right. So it is like when we're like the show is asking the season. It's like, okay, which I think is the most interesting question you can ask for the boys, which is just like, all right, they're pitched as the heroes of this series. But at the end of the day, after five seasons, like, what have they accomplished?

It's just they killed a lot of people and now the sons are coming to seek revenge. And it's like, I think it did a very good job but showing like, yo, Huey's full of shit. Like, Huey in that moment is full of shit where he wants to be, he has a vision of himself as a good person, but the minute he has to own up to the fact that like, hey, I killed your debt, he can't.

Which I'm just like, and I think the other thing is like, when he has to actually be a good person. He actually has to be like, in that moment, and I guess it answers my question of just like, wait, why did you forgive age? train because Huey's now asking for the same thing that he wanted from A train and I was just like oh and that's where I'm like can the show stick that landing of is Huey actually a good person? Like the show says he's a good person or like the people around it's like you're the best of us but I like look I'm like hey you guys just killed two soups last like last that's true yeah he's really just the least worst relatively speaking yeah hewey is the best one Guys now.

You're the scale. Yeah. Steve, you're the Huey of this show. Yeah, I'm the least worst. Okay, so you're the butcher. He's the Huey. What's Charles? Homelander, what the fuck?

I'm not home. Is that what you? I'm not a homelander. You're French. Homelander is crazy. You're a Frenchie-pilled as well. Like, you're a Frenchie-Pilled. Yeah.

You're a mixture of, you have one aspect of Homelander in you. Is that you can't get off the milk. Can't get off the milk? By the way, I heard about you. I heard about you. Heard about me? I heard about you. Everybody has heard about everybody.

Everybody knows. Oh, but yeah, you're definitely a homelander. You're probably Frenchy, but you could be like a bunch of different people. I want to be above his milk. You could be M.M. M.M. The heart and soul of the team. Yeah.

Good t-shirt game. Yeah, great t-shirt game. Like, got the fucking Colts on right now. Still repping them. That's amazing. Homeland is great. You got to fight back. You can't like that slot.

But he's definitely homeland. You could have been Kimiko. Look at me. He's definitely homeland. You could have been in the starlight. You could have been the starlight. Oh, I would not be starlight. No, we don't have a starlight.

Alea's Starlight. Yes. There you go. That's all. Alea is our starlight. All right. Getting towards the end of the episode, I legitimately thought the homeland of Ryan stuff was, to me, one of the most thrilling and compelling scenes in the history of the show.

Because it's one of the, oh, now, I will say this about the boys. The boys does, at times, glamour you with scenes. They give you these big, crazy, amazing scenes. scenes, killing a whale, hero-gazim, whatever the fuck it is. They give you these things that are actually attention grabbers rather than like these really deep thematic moments. The show has those as well. That's the reason why the show is lasted.

But this was just emotionally gut-wrenching to watch. Like it just maybe personally hit a nerve for me or just watching Homelander try to trick Ryan, watch Ryan try to usurp his father. And what happens to him in the end, I don't know. why it weren't so sensational. When we saw that shot in the trailer, people were like speculating it. It's probably,

to the Ryan, most likely it could be Social Boy. And to see, like, see him punch his son that he supposedly loves. And like, we've seen Holander, not like really fight, but we see him throwing hands. And he's not really the one to be sentimental about killing people.

We see it all the time. And for him to, like, even, like, take a second while punching Ryan was like, oh, man, like this guy is, like, beyond cooked. It's never been more over for this dude. Well, also, I think it's like, I think that you could probably say I would love to ask Eric Kripke and Co. Was that also just kind of like, you know, a slight metaphor for if you think about like the boomer generation and thinking of Homelanders being like, you know what, not only am I the Messiah, but why would

I give anything to my child? Yeah, no other else. I don't want you to become me. I want to live forever. And I do think it's very interesting that it's like, for all of these seasons, Homelander thought, I want to pass down something to my son. I want to, like, build this empire and give it to you one day

and then getting to the point where it's like, you know what? Actually, the thing that would make me happy is that if I live forever and you get the fuck out of here. And that, to me, is about it. And we've seen that with like Omni Man and Mark from Invincible in the early days

in the first season of that because he doesn't think about his son he thinks about the bigger picture and that's the only thing that blinds him for that. He doesn't stop, but... I'm sorry, Steve, what were you saying? We've seen this in Invincible when Omni Man nearly beats Mark to death.

He stops because of seemingly his love for his son. You could maybe see that as the reason that Homelander might have stopped from killing Ryan in the end of this episode. But he doesn't really try to indoctrinate him with the vision.

as he is. It's more based on like around a further lie that he tells Ryan. Yeah. That he doubles down on the fact he's like, no, like your mom came on to me. Like it breaks down and Ryan gets more and more upset as the truth happens. Exactly, right? Because as you get older, the thing that you get upset with your parents about are all the things they didn't tell you. Yeah.

The truth starts to be the thing. Now, this is in the relationships that I've had with my parents. parents and authority figures. Not everybody has this. Some parents have less secrets than other. Obviously, mine had a lot of secrets. All right, but some parents have less secrets than others. But you start to get mad about the things

about the world that they didn't tell you. You start to get mad about the things about themselves that they didn't tell you, particularly as you start to compare yourself to them. Yeah. As you start to say, all these things that you said are not true because look at the things that you do. One thing that he said to him was interesting.

And I pegged this as something that, I guess, the Xers or the boomers say to the younger people. They say, our stewardship ends up resulting in your freedom. He goes, you don't have to worry about going out there and achieving my legacy. Don't worry about it. You can do whatever you want. Like you can do, he says, you know, I thought that you would be the one that would carry this thing on. Yeah. The one that would elevate this thing.

I can do that because I'm going to live forever now. I'm a corporation, I'm an entity that's going to live forever. So that means that you are free to go do whatever you want. You can go be a painter, start a ban. You can just go fuck around. You can do whatever you want. I think that a lot of times is the way people who want to be in power and perpetuity. That's the way they launder it.

They launder it by saying, hey, you know what? As long as we're taking care of things, you can go out on the boat with your friends. Chill. You never have to be serious about anything because we are the serious ones. a lot of people buy into that, but it's always bullshit so that you never have to actually contend with somebody else's view of the world. But that's a masterful manipulation like parenting move, quote unquote, because like you think, like the kid thinks they're getting agency,

but really it's no, at no point do they mention about being your parent. Right. Or being any sort of authority figure because they think that they're like, they're absolving you of that agency. It sucks. I mean, it's, I think the other funny thing, is like, when you think of what butcher tells Ryan, he's just like, hey, kid, you wouldn't be the first soldier young man to go out there and die for the cause, like, which is a crazy

thing. That's a terrible cell. But also, it's like in that moment, and I think what was so funny about, like, Ryan having the conversation with Butcher and then having it with Homelander is like, there is that thing as a kid where you're talking to your parents. and you realize that like for them to survive in the atrocity of the world and everything that happens, they almost have to capitulate. Where you're like when you're young, you still have the fire in the brimstone,

you still have the fight left in you. And like Ryan in that moment having to realize with butcher and homelair it's like, oh, all you have left is the cause. All you have left is just like your singular belief that you are right. and the only thing that, the only way for me to exist in the world is to help bolster your worldview. And I was like, oh, I thought it was like a very,

I think those two scenes were very good. And like, what happens when that kid is Superboy? What happens when he's finally like, I don't have to listen to you? And what happens is he gets fucked up, which is like a very much. That is what happens to young children. They're just like, I'm not listening to you.

And then the older generation puts their boot heel on your neck and be like, hey, we didn't. Ask. Right. Like, do it. Yeah. Imagine your parents be a homeland or butcher, man.

It's a shock Ryan as well adjusted as he is, bro. It's surprising he didn't pull his end up. That's crazy. Yeah. Wow. He's talking to the drama. Before we get off this real quick, um,

ooh, daddy. Um, it's, why didn't Homeland or kill Ryan? I really would have liked to see why he didn't. Or at least connect with why he didn't. I feel like we will, right? Yeah, yeah. But in that moment, that felt really important

to know that he was alive when Butcher found him. I don't know. If he kills Ryan, man, Ryan is the last thing tethering him to this earthly plane. Right. Right? Without Ryan, he can go full loco and, like, really, like,

do the God her thing, like, unabated, unabashed. Like, as much as he wants to, Ryan is still a piece of him that like that keeps him keeps him in touch with his humanity whatever small little bit is left that's gone

it's over like we've lost yeah we lose if Homeland if Ryan does so indiscriminately though yeah but that's not his son like that's not his flesh and blood so is a part of the reason why he didn't kill Ryan just straight up narcissism

he views Ryan is different because Ryan is a piece of hell. But that's the thing that, like, I can't get fully into Homlander's psyche as to why, because you could sell it as narcissism, because he doesn't have, like, the emotional language to know, like, no, no, no, it wasn't love. Or, like, he says it was love. But really, it could be twisted as like, oh, no, no, this is still part of my legacy. This is still part of a thing that can carry on. Well, I think you just, like, you got to think about it. Anybody else goes in there with the virus and it's like, we don't go, I'm a go kill Homelander.

they probably die immediately, right? If butcher goes, like anybody, like, gets off immediately. Ryan's the only person in the world, he probably, outside for Soldier Boy, and he'd be like, oh, hello, son, let's talk for a second. Let me, like, that's it. And so I think him not killing Ryan is like, I don't want to give, you don't have to give them credit, you know what I'm saying? You don't have to get nobody props, but, like, that's just him being like,

this is the one thing I can't do. But also the one person I can't kill. The thing Homelander wants most in the world is he wants to feel something. He wants to be surrounded by people who can stand up to him, who can hurt him, and Ryan can hurt him. Butcher can hurt him. Soldier Boy can hurt him. Like, there was the moment when Soldier Boy is, like, basically, like, Homelander could kill Soldier Boy when he's, like, dressing him down when he's bathed in breast milk. The reason he doesn't is because I'm like, Homelander wants to feel something.

even if it's driving him crazy he's like there is like I can count on one hand the people on this world that can hurt me and stand up to me and I think in that moment he was upset with Ryan but it was like oh someone's beams can actually get to me and it's the fact that like he gets visibly

excited when he's around the boys yes and it's the same thing afraid of him yeah yeah and Ryan's not in that moment is not afraid of him and I think there is a thing for Homelander where it's like it's like a toy It's just like, oh, someone finally fought back. And I think that motivates it.

Yeah. Right. I think the underlying thing is just if someone is afraid of you, they can't truly love you. There's like if someone has a genuine fear of you, they can't truly love you. Because there's a vulnerability that he knows that people don't actually. adore him. He knows that people don't actually like him because they're scared. So everything that they do just comes from that. It just comes from the fact that they are scared.

And it makes all of those interactions and that relationship, it makes it all synthetic. So to your point, when he's around people who aren't afraid of him, those feel like genuine feelings. When his father is disappointed in him, that's something completely different. I think this show, I'll finish talking here, but I think this show did something really interesting in trying to illustrate Homelander's trauma

in the fact that no one has ever truly been okay with him. He's disappointed everybody who's ever been an authority figure to him. Everyone, such a disappointment, such a disappointment. So legitimately, the only way for him to not be a disappointment is to become a God. That's like the only reason, the only way he can do it, right? Because the one thing that no one can,

like heresy, being disappointed in God, that is the, like, number one sin. The number one sin is like going, God's not good enough. Like, the number one sin is going, like, God's will is wrong. God doesn't love enough.

He doesn't forgive enough. God betrayed me. That's the number one sin. So the only way Soldier Boy can, like, excuse me, to get to that point is to become a god. Then it's legitimately blasphemous to be disappointed in him.

It's blasphemous to hold him in that regard. Like, he just wants to cut out the human parts of himself. But I also think it's like, the thing that Homelander has always been in search of is like, and it goes back to what Stan was saying, is I'm like, Homelander since he was a child was a product. He was a product of a corporation.

So people around him were disappointed in him in the same way that Tim Cook would be disappointed in iPhone sales. And so it's like, and I think they made a very important choice in the beginning where it's like, we've never seen Homelander in clothes. We've always seen him in the costume that the company had provided for him. Like even as he's trying to ascend to Godhood, he is still made in the image of the corporation.

And I think it is very interesting where it's like his arc is trying to find some type of humanity. and he can't because everyone around him is just like you never had a family you don't have regular emotions we're all in fear of you and I just do think it's fascinating to be like I think Joby you brought this up I'm like is the worst thing that could happen to homeland or not dying

but actually being human actually having to take off the costume actually having to sit with the fact that like what happens when I don't have the one thing that gives me purpose in this world, which is just like I'm the most powerful person. You guys have to listen to me. So no matter if you love me, hate me or whatever.

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your car your timeline your terms visit carvana.com to sell your car today carvana pick up fees may apply nothing can really get to me right yeah yeah Charles it's time for your time of the month why is it gonna be like that all right anyway the drama the drama this week okay same Zendaya Robert Pattson starring a vehicle spoiler alerts for the drama after this point, we are going to talk about it because there's something that happens

within the first 20 or so minutes of this that is the thrust of this movie. So essentially, Charlie and Emma, a week out from their wedding, both of them play a game with their couple friends. What's the worst thing that you've ever done? They're getting drinks, they're having a good time,

blah, blah, blah, blah. Everything's great. Zendaya reveals that as a teenager, She had thought of and planned a mass shooting at her school and backed out at the last minute. This revelation sends everybody spiraling primarily Robert Patton's character, Charlie, who feels like he does not know his partner. It's destabilizing and shit fucking falls apart from there. By the drop, what happens. Now, before I go, Vand, you were like, you were the way.

one who's just like, dog, you love this movie. You've been talking about it. Really quick. What was it about this movie that just, like, got you? Absolutely sublime. You know what? You know what got me? The attention to narrative detail.

Yes. So there's a version of the movie where everyone learns that, and then that's enough. That's not what they do. They don't do that. They do two things. Number one, they then. make, they put you in the mind of one of the scariest things

in America right now, which is the mass shooter. The mass school shooter, the mass shooter, but specifically the school shooter. They put you in the mind of the school shooter. They put you in the mind of someone who there's this combination of events that lead them to convince themselves

that they have to do this horrible thing. Now, look, I'll be honest with you guys. obviously that's a very serious thing to discuss and the movie deals with it but the movie adds to course of black comedy so a lot of the times that you're going back and looking at Sandaia's character

it's through a comedic lens right some of this stuff is funny like there's one point where she goes but shout out Sally you die first and it's like it's that's not something I mean like it's like that's when that happens that's funny I will say if you don't, if you don't buy into this, and this is like,

God, I think some of my problems with the criticism is I'm like, you have to buy into the fact that this is a comedy. If you are buying into this movie as this is going to be a grand sweeping perfect statement about gun violence and violence in America, it's just like you're not, it's like it really isn't the message of the movie at all. Well, I don't think the movie has. No, the message is there. It's not.

No. But I want you to consider some things that, are in the film. Right. Okay, and I just, all of the criticisms, anytime something's dealing with something is serious,

all of the criticisms are valid and you have to, you have to contend with you. Right. But consider some things that are in the film. Number one, when we're flashing back to her

as a young person, her parents are never there. Yeah. Right. But what is there? The computer? No, the gun. The gun.

The gun. The gun is there. Yeah. The gun is there. The internet is there. Yeah. She is completely, legitimately there is a scene

where it's like, Here's $20. Go get dinner. Yeah. We see her father later on. He's never there. She's doing all kinds of, she's taking a gun out.

She injures herself with the gun. Yes. She's taking a gun out. She's shooting it. No one realizes the gun is gone. Whatever her parents are preoccupied with, there's been a destabilizing event in her life. She's moved.

She's in a new place. In Baton Rouge, though. Right. She's moved. She's in a new place. She's being bullied. There's absolutely zero guidance. There's zero community for her.

There's nothing for her. There's nothing for her. other than the ideas that she's making up in her head, I think the movie doesn't handle that responsibly. I'm not going to say they're responsible about it in that that they have a lot to say about it, but they do handle it seriously. And that's where this movie, to me,

is like kind of a work of genius in that regard. Because it's the fact that this isn't from the perspective of Zendaya. This entire movie is from Robert Patton's perspective. He is the guiding narrator, like narrator and, like, usher of this story. His perception of his soon-to-be wife is completely dismantled by the fact that this has been revealed to him.

And every time that he is speaking to her, every time that he is thinking about it, it is brilliantly edited and brilliantly shot that all he sees is that troubled teenager. All he sees is this thing that he can't nail down and this thing that is constantly shifting in his mind. That to me, we see these things that are ultimately played for laughs,

I think it's the balance of both the direction of what she is saying and the perspective that is distorted from her husband. And we never really get a full-on, like, explanation from her. Because, like, it's shot in, like, this little, like, staccato types of conversations. Like, well, I thought about doing this. It was because of that. There's this one anecdote, and he's like, well, was that the only reason that you want to do this?

No, there was more. it's so many great things of nuance and I think the ultimate message about the movie isn't the fact that we are stigmatizing the school shooter because that's like a much bigger thing for it to do it's more about what are you entitled to know about your partner and what do you think

is growth enough for you to make you think that somebody has changed and that really to me is like a brilliant balance that this movie achieves I think it's even deeper than that I think the genius of the movie Like, if you just take it from a narrative lens, like the script, it is very purposeful that the first time we see Robert Pattinson and Zendaya,

Robert Pattinson lies to her, lies about reading a book to get her on a date. And when he, the only time he is going to admit that he's wrong is when he gets caught in the lie. Yeah. So then when they play the, what's the worst thing you ever done game, Three of the examples are about violence that was actually committed against another person. Alanaheim's character locks a disabled,

like a mentally challenged kid in a closet. And leaves him there. And leaves him there. Her boyfriend, Shield uses his girlfriend as a human shield because he's afraid of getting attacked by a dog. Robert Pattinson admits that he was cyberbullying someone.

Yeah. The person that they're the most mad at at the table is based on something that they actually didn't do. And what I think is interesting about that choice is like throughout the movie, there are points where it's not just about Clayson Race. They meet their, they see a, their DJ for their wedding. Shout of that DJ was so good.

Smoking heroin. Allegedly. Allegedly. And this, like, and from there, there's this sense of judgment of just like, well, what type of person is she? now. And I think like what I loved about the movie is I'm like it's a comedy of errors where it's like they're all trying to punish Zendaya for something that she actually didn't do and something that

she has said actually I did the opposite. I devoted my life to fighting gun violence. I found people like once I found these people that and my voice felt hurt I was like actually not only what I did was wrong let me go the opposite way and still that's not enough. And I was just like, Oh, that is like an authority subject to get into. But I do think it is a very modern thing where it's like the thought of violence is more punitive than actual violence happening. Or it is equated. There's a false equivalence to that.

No, I think like, I thought the movie was fantastic. I do have a question, though, and I was talking to somebody literally yesterday about this. Tendaya is black. Yes, right. Right? But they don't, it's not like the movie doesn't play with race that much. in like the thought process of the gun violence and all that stuff, right?

The going back to watching her as a teenager, right? Like, it's got the beautiful irony of like her finding community through like being like, through the gun violence, like, which is, I thought a genius movie. I thought it was like really funny. Really well executed.

But it never deals with the fact that she's black and she's like, she's had this experience. Did you guys like think that like, when you think about the movie, is that something like that's weighing on your head? because I know people who didn't enjoy the movie because they were like, why, like, why did the movie, like, address that or, like, it was irresponsibly handled?

So, not irresponsibly handled, but, like, if you're going to cast Zendaya in this role, you don't just cast Zendaya, just cast Sandaia. If you cast a black person, right, you got to deal with the repercussions of there's a black person going to commit violence against people. How does the movie handle that? Or the movie should handle that. Well, so there are a couple of things I think of mind.

number one when we talked about one battle after another I got deep into both on the big picture here and on higher learning and your substack and on my substack

about black woman revolutionaries black female revolutionaries and their tradition of black female revolutionaries black women revolutionaries throughout history and the care we take of them

this is fantastical because that's something that black women don't do so black women are not your school shooters they're not right okay black women are not

your sources of mass violence. They're not. They don't do that. Okay? So this world, whenever black women are portrayed on screen, we have to contend with that portrayal, particularly

like I talked about with PTA in the movie, when a white man wrote them. When a white man wrote them, a white man wrote them, we have to ask questions about whether or not the representation is being done with care. Because it's black women or

a group that I am I hope let me not say this I'll make myself see out like a fucking night I hope to be able to protect I hope to be able to at least endeavor into conversations around protecting them I don't want to see like I'm the best nigga in the world because I'm not

in this situation I can tell that this movie was written in a raceless faction and then they cast a black lady to be in the lead now the question is because like you cast a black woman in a situation that black women do not do that.

Black women do not. There's nothing. When I was critiquing one battle after another, I was saying, hey, there's a tradition of black female revolutionaries that this movie to me not only subverts, but belittles and minimizes a little bit.

Now, if that's what you have to do with your character, I've talked to a lot of people, some people involved in the movie, I've talked to a lot of people in there are like, hey, we've had the conversation. Jamie Lawson came on our learning, and she spoke very eloquently about the fact that sometimes we hold

black creatives to too high of a standard when we're talking about this stuff, and we don't let actors act, writers write, and directors direct, because we want positive representation at all times. I think there's a tension there that we have to deal with and talk about as a community, right? But I can understand

her point of view and other people's point of view that agree with her. A lot of black creatives in the town agree with her. A lot of them. It's like we sit down the other side, overdo this. I can see where they're coming from. In this, it just never even occurred to me. The people that it did occur to, I think it is a phenomenal. I've read great stuff.

Yeah. I think it's something that we always have to discuss. In this situation though, this movie doesn't seem like it exists in Earth 1. This seems like a European a Europeans view on American culture. Right. A Europeans take on American culture, a movie that's told in a style outside of American cinema. Yeah. With this awkward, weird, off-kilter narrative where every single character is sort of a caricature and an archetype of something that somebody is watching on television.

They're hovering just like slightly above realism. Right. So, so to me, below you mean. Or below. So below or above, whatever. But not quite on the same line. But so for me, the only time that it ever occurred to me that the movie would make any critique or criticism at all on critique or conversation at all on race is that perhaps

the reason why she's getting bullied is because she's black. Right. And she's in the South. And if that's something, then that's a completely different. So I actually think the genius of the movie, and I don't know if it's intentional, is the fact that you cast someone like Zendaya, because there's been a large conversation about, I think Zendaya might have said this in the past, that she chooses parts or goes out for parts that might have been written for white women, right?

She always kissing the bone of a white man. So what I think is actually genius is like it... I mean, look at Robert Pattis' track. I'm just saying. I love today. But that to me is actually the genius of the movie, if you think about it, where it's like, okay, this is written by European,

it's based in Boston about a British man dating a half black, half white woman, and this woman is now in a society, in a bubble in Boston where, and this happens a lot in white spaces, where you're one of the good ones, you're so beautiful, you're light skin, oh, you have the right job and the right husband.

And the minute that she does something that this liberal bubble does not like, she's like, okay, we can't. But she perpetrates that too when she sees the home girl smoking air. And that to me is the genius. Similarly, when Alana Heim is like, to her I was like, you grew up with guns, right?

You grew up around gun violence? He's like, no, I didn't. No, I did not. And I'm like, here's the thing. I'm not saying that this movie is great with race. I'm actually saying that because it is written from Robert Pattinson's point of view. Yes.

Part of the comedy is the fact that it's like, this is a man that's about to date a black woman that has never actually interrogated her as a black woman. She was a fantasy to. him. And it's like earlier in the film, when he's like, I haven't seen that photo of you. And she looks, she doesn't look like Zendaya. She's a kid. She looks

different. And I'm like, oh no, that is saying a lot. That there's a version of even herself as a young black woman that she didn't want to share with her husband. She didn't want her husband to see that version of her. Well, you know what's interesting? It's like,

for a lot of people, right, there's a version of yourself that sort of dies when you become the older version. of you. Sure. The question is like, and this is a question that's really for black people. Like, to me, it's asked more of black youth than it is of anyone else. The question is whether or not other people will let it die. Because like, you staying out late, smoking weed, doing all of that stuff, doing stuff that kids do, making mistakes that kids make, like, one of my things that I always looked at when I was a kid, and even as a man was like, yo, the

Mistakes that my homies made when they were 15, 16, 17 years old, they became eternal mistakes. Yeah. They became mistakes that plunged them into systems that they then could not escape, that put them in, as they say, in Heat, Gladiators Academies, like Jetson and places like that where they go and just learn how to be worse for survival. What I knew dudes, like, I was in the GITDA program with the White Boys. I knew white boys doing Coke at 13. Like, you know what I'm saying? I knew people going fucking crazy, stealing their parents' cars, crashing the fucking cars, beating people up, weird sex stuff,

all of that very young. And then by the time you meet them when they're 21 or 22, like, yeah, I just finished my second year studying abroad. I'm like, I'm happy you're alive, dog. Yeah. By you, that you came through it. Meanwhile, the guys that I know that got caught with a little bit of shit on them, that fucked them forever.

So I think the movie, when you took, When you look at Alana Hame's character, Heim. Himes, I think, a lot of Himes character. Shout to Danielle, who I had Tommy Alter. We all had drinks together, me, her, and Dylan O'Brien in New York, a Tommy Alter night. Lovely. It's like, when you look at her character, she's the only character in the movie, and her and my beloved Misha. She is the own.

Misha. I love me and Misha. What do you peeve by that? Nah, niggins. What'd be? I love me and Misha. I love it. It just does right now.

As soon as Misha was explaining what was going on, the antennas was going up, I'm like, that's one of them ones right there. Yeah, yeah. Misha turned around, she flipped that skirt, she folded so quick. That's what the fuck I'm talking about. That's the best scene in years. What's wrong with you, man? Van, I don't give a fuck, what ever? What is wrong with you?

I went to check Mr. Skin immediately. Oh my goodness. Like, that's the best scene in years. Misha folded immediately. Misha was like, She knew what the fuck was up. We're doing this. Jesus Christ.

Go see the drama just for that scene. Mishu was like, oh, okay, this is going down. Let's have, let's fucking party. Oh, my God. I don't think that was how we were supposed to read the scene at all, man. How are we supposed to read the scene? He started crying. He tries to kiss her.

Her boss, by the way. It's her boss, by the way. Hold on. Hold on, guys. We got to do the goddamn Mishu. The whole purpose of the scene before where he's talking to her. The whole purpose of that scene to me, the whole, see, my brain is like, the whole purpose of the scene before, in my opinion, was to show that a lot of times she makes decisions like on a whim. Right.

That she doesn't quite think of the consequences of a decision. And she'll make that type of decision. Okay. That gets stuck in his brain. Then they go to do what they do. And she's down because she sometimes doesn't think about what happens after, which to me. me is something that the movie deals with as well. A lot of people

who don't think about the entirety of the larger picture because they're stuck and focused on what just happened to them. Like what just or what is happening to them? Right. Like or what like think about the thing that he was, what's the thing that Robert Pattinson's

character was thinking about the most in the movie before he gets thought up, before he gets caught up and being reactive. What's the thing that he was the most dealing with? Oh, the speech. The speech. Yeah, the speech. The speech. The speech was him trying to have intention behind his relationship.

It was something that he was, he didn't know how to say what he was saying, but he knew that he wanted to say it. Right. The movie then flips that. He doesn't know how to get rid of something. Yeah. He doesn't know how to deal with something. There's something that he wanted to do before, and he was desperately trying to figure out how to do it in the most loving. way. Now there's something that he

doesn't want and he doesn't know how to deal with it. Like every other character is hovering around that. Like Alana Heim is one note because she just is super mad, super triggered. Misha is one note just because it just seems like things happen to her and she reacts to those things

without thinking of them. Even when she tells the guy, the guy, she knows the guy's fucking crazy. The guy's going to go beat him up. None of this stuff seems like she walks to the room right away doesn't allow the room to happen to her. She happens to the room. She walks into the right away and goes, he kissed me. Doesn't even know what the fuck is going on.

That was funny. Right? And like, that's a consistent character, even though the character doesn't have a ton of dimension. Yeah. The Zendaya character is insanely complex, like ridiculously complex. And she played and she played an incredible too. I want to go back to the Misha and Robert Pence and scene because I think actually

I want to go back to it too. Let me see this was on there. All right. I think actually what that scene to me is about is like it is showing the cowardice not only of Robert Pattinson and Misha, but they're a couple friends or whatever where it's like, Zendaya is not a, like her character, Emma is not a perfect character, but she's actually the only one who was telling her truth.

People just don't like it. It's not enough. They keep punishing her. And the thing that she's trying to get Robert Patton or Alana Heim or Misha or all these people to be like, hey, all of you guys are unwilling to have an actual conversation. When she's having that conversation with Robert Pattinson, she's so unhappy. with her boyfriend at that time, who's the nice guy, that instead of just being like, I want to break up,

something's not right, she goes and cheats with someone who treats her like shit, because then it's the impetus. And then what I think the genius of the scene is, is that Robert Pattinson internalizes that. And it's like, instead of having a real conversation with my soon-to-be wife, if I cheat, that will give me a reason where I don't have to actually talk

about the real issue. I cheated. I don't have to marry you anymore. But at the same time, the conflict move is he catches himself. And when he catches himself, what's the first thing that she says to him? Does Zendaya says to him? No, no, no, no, no, no. No, what does Misha say to him after?

Oh, it's fine. No, she goes, you ripped my shirt. Oh, yeah. She ripped my shirt. She ripped my shirt like, God, damn, that was intense. There's no, she doesn't contend with the weight of what just happened at all. Right. There's no, oh, my God, how could you?

It's just very matter of fact. And the movie is kind of dealing with, I mean, outside of that scene, what should be matter of fact? Do you treat someone saying something like Zendaya said matter-of-factally? Do you go just, God damn, and have a couple of, like, drinks about it? Or is that something that's so profound? Like, what is profound? Is love profound? Is the amount of harm that you can do profound?

Because also in the scene where they're all talking, if you notice, until it gets to Robert Pattinson, everything is an escalation. He says something and you go that's pretty fucked up But then she does something that if we didn't talk about this If there was no school shooting Yeah would have been That would the worst thing on the table Yeah and you could see like And this is why I think like

You know we argue all the days of the week But I think Zadaya is one of our best Young actress She is freaking out Once this narrative that Zendaya cannot Act like What does he ever been bad at? I don't get it. It's like

That's starting to get on my fucking nurse Who's saying that? It's like or that she's She's, to me. Like she plays the same thing every time. No, no, that's not true, though. No, that is true. Like, she plays a brooding and then cutesy young teenager in Spider-Man.

Then she comes back and legitimately plays with dazzling accuracy. An indigenous warrior woman in Dune. Then she plays this role. Then there's root in euphoria. I don't know that I've ever seen Zendaya bad in something. And I think the range is actually phenomenal. I don't think her. Like, what I think people are actually talking about is, like, to me, a lot of her performances aren't actually that showy.

Where it's like people like, she's always in day. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. She's different characters, but it's like, it's a less showy performance. Robert Pattinson for a lot of this movie is the character that's like, he's sweating through it. Like, he's literally flailing around. He's flailing around. And you need, and I'm like, I'll be honest, this is going to, this is my hot take. I was just like, oh, this movie actually does not work.

if you do not have Robert Pattinson and Zendaya as the A-listers because I'm like oh they paper over a lot of just like the wilder kind of just like what the fuck is happening in this movie because you're just like

oh their star wad is just so high that you are questioning this entire time at least I was and maybe I just don't I was a little bit like there's really what you're tripping about Rob play like yeah no there was moments where I was just like

But she didn't do it. I'm not going to have to have a little. We have to have a conversation. We have to talk. We have to talk about it. No, we're going to talk about it. But like, here's the thing. We are going to have to talk about it.

I'm not letting your maid of honor come up here. No. No, no, no. Let's talk about Mike and Rachel, bro. Let's talk about Mike and Rachel. They got to go, man. They got to go. Out of the question.

It's, we put too much stock in our maids of honor. Like, this is a fucking problem. We need to ban speeches at weddings, first of all. No, no, no. Get rid of that shit. It's always too long. It's never that great. I don't know what you.

I murdered mine. I did one, too. It was okay at best. But honor is sometimes the biggest ops. No, no, for real. I bet you everybody knows one made of honor that fucked up parts of the wedding. I'm just telling y'all something right now. Y'all speaking on women's issues.

Okay, all right. I'm just saying. You want me to be real? You want me to be real? So, a lot of guests. up. This is how she's been feeling the whole time. Yeah.

She's like, hey, yo, she asked me to be her made of a... I was kind of like, hey, you, yo, you don't got any friends. Now, what I think is I'm just like, hey, yo, you was the Queens and Dan walks through. She's looking good. Yo, man. She was like, damn, you know what? I always hated you.

And I'm like, hey, in my opinion, I'm like, Alana you a coward. Mike, you a coward. Yeah. And what did Mike do is like... You've been hating on a black woman. Like, in the back. Here's the thing. I think Alana

it's her fault. She escalated the whole shit. Zendaya didn't do it. Zendaya did not do it. Rachel did that. She locked a mentally challenged kid in a closet. Saw I'm freaking out. Lied about it.

A citywide search happened for him. And she was like, you were actually a sociopath. So we should say something here. Everything that you guys are saying is true. Everything. However, the reason why she didn't do, it is because somebody already did.

She didn't, Zendaya did not so, and the movie, Zendaya's character does not decide to not do it because of whatever. She decided, it already happens and then she sees the ramifications Yeah, right. So she could have not

responded to those ramifications and still done it. But it's luck that it didn't happen. Yeah, but it's also actual development that she chose to not do it. It's actual, it's actual development that she was empathetic enough Because a lot of people would have not done that. A lot of people would have been like,

fucking somebody beat me to it. We're just going to have to come back in a couple of days. That's fair. There was empathy inside of her that was able to see what people were going through. And she responded to that. And that actually, because that's actually also how she made friends. Yeah. She made friends because everybody was grieving at the same time.

But let me, like, if we go back to the script, though, and we go back to the initial, what's the worst thing you've ever done? it is very interesting that the three people who are not Zendaya, right? They tell a version of a story where Mike is like, instead of me getting hurt, I threw a woman in front of me to take the brunt of it. We go to Alana's character, and she is like, I saw a boy that was different from me

and I locked him in a closet, and I lied on him, and I never faced consequences. And then Robert Pattinson is like, I cyber bullied a guy so bad he might have had to move. All three of those things are issues that when we talk about like school shootings, why do they happen in this country, not just because we are a country that is addicted to gun culture and violence. A lot of times I'm just like, we do not know how to talk with children, protect them from bullying, make marginalized people feel seen, all of these things.

And I'm like, I do think it's interesting that all three of them cannot see. their own role in perpetuating a violent culture. They just look at Zendaby, like, you're a psychopath, you're one of the bad ones, you're othered. We don't want to associate with you anymore. Well, the Mike and Rachel's stories are actually interesting because Rachel does something,

doesn't take responsibility, and stands like, yeah, I did it, whatever, but nothing matters, like, it's cool. When she's at the wedding, she's acting like, It's like, it's all gravy, right? Like, I'm going to say, take the high road, despite the fact that you've been acting terrible this whole time. Mike literally went behind his then-girlfriend

while she was getting attacked by a dog and stood behind her and didn't take any of that, like, any of the attacks on the dog. That's what he does in the movie. Yeah. Mike just stands behind Rachel, let her do all the stuff and he's just like, yep, that's you. Like those, like, again, to the Jesus of the writing,

those stories, like, infer how, like, these people, characters throughout the movie go about their business in dealing with what Zendaya has told him. I think it's just like a really like real struggle genius from the writer the movie. So the end of the movie. First of all, just before I get to that, the filmmaking here to me is top notch. It's incredible. Like totally the movie does not let you breathe.

It doesn't let you breathe. Every single scene is an exploration of the deepening rift between these two characters. and the trauma that everybody is going through, every single scene. There's a, there's a, there's a shot that it's like, I think it was like when they actually have the conversation the morning after. And he asks, he asks Zendaya something. And she's like sat alone on the couch and he's across from her. And it like, it's the shot of Zendaya, cut back to Robert Pattinson.

He asked the question, the cut back to Zendaya is her as a teenager in her home. and Zendaya's voice is answering as that teenage self, I'm like, this is some God-level film making. Right, because he's showing you. Yeah. He's not, he's doing it, but he's showing how he's perceiving his world. Exactly. And everything that he's looking at.

But he's also showing you just how much is on his mind. Then he gets to a point to where he's just in defense mode. Yeah. Of her. And because he can't really reconcile how to both defend who she is and come to terms with what she actually didn't do. That's what sends him down the deep end. And then at the end of the movie, after he's beaten up,

we get a physical manifestation of how he's been feeling emotionally. Him just battered, bruised at the end of his rope. Her completely by herself legitimately in a North Face, also in her wedding dress, like both of them, and then they start over. But they start over. in brutal, ugly, complete, illuminating truth. Yeah.

I love. They start, they start, when they start over, they start over now, because remember, the beginning of their relationship is a lie. Yeah. Because he legitimately, and when you talk about developing like a little sociopathy right there, he legitimately doesn't just lie. He goes and takes a picture of a book, the whole deal, like a little bit off there. that beginning of their relationship, as genuine as it was,

wasn't really grounded in who they actually were. No, it was conniving on this part. And so the end of it, they get through all of this stuff. Now they're married. Now they actually have a chance. Now they have a shot because they've dealt with the ugliness of one another. So I'll read it so I don't get anything wrong because I wanted to ask about this. This is Hollywood reporter, the drama director, Christopher, uh, Borthley's two,

2012 essay on his age gap romance resurfaces, sparking controversy, essentially a bunch of people on Reddit, resurfaced an essay where he wrote about an age gap romance that he had in his 20s with a woman that was a teen. How old? Let's see. The piece written by Borgley himself,

then 27, reflects on a recent relationship he had with a teenage girl. The scans, which are not widely available online, have begun to circulate and have been translated by users. So I haven't read the scans, but this has been popping up where people are like, I think rightfully so. Being like a movie that is, I think the subtext of it is about cancel culture. Being written by potentially someone who has done something that people should frown upon. And I think it's like an interesting. I found the whole conversation around this interesting.

Because we are getting to a point where it's like the PTA shit popped up when we were talking about one battle after another. Right. Where it's like what responsibility do these directors have male directors when they're getting into these topics, whether it's cancel culture, whether it's mass violence, whether it's putting women and especially black women in positions where it's like, hey, yo, to your point, I might not agree with all the criticism of this movie, but I can understand where the I are coming. from. Right. Obviously, I can understand what the iron comes from. If anyone

thinks that you are writing a movie or producing a movie to explain or gloss over something that you did that they are in disagreement with, they're going to examine the movie in a different way.

As far as what the fuck he was on in 2012 or what the fuck he had going on and then, I think all of that type of stuff, in my opinion, is up for conversation, debate and exploration as to like what kind of society we want to be.

Cancel culture being whatever, however, whatever term people want to use, we have to be brutally in conversation with each other about our expectations because we live in a society that we share. And we share this society and it's not just the way you look at it. It's not just the way I look at. It's the way we look at it. So there's never going to be a time where we're not going to have conversations on what we feel, safety, consent, or appropriate actions by growing men are.

So there's no canceling in that. What that is is responsibility of adults and protecting children and also in setting terms and expectations for how it is that we're going to act. That's always going to happen. I know that this movie, to me, is as much about cancel culture. I think this movie, in my opinion,

is not about whether or not this person was canceled. I mean, if somebody told me that, if one of you guys told me that, I would be concerned. It's not... And you just spiral out and then like... No, but you have to understand. I'm also not going to bed with any of you.

So like I would... It's something that you want to explore. I think the movie, to me, is what responsible exploration of somebody else's past looks like. Yeah. Like, how do you do that in a way that maintains love, respect, empathy, and concern for other people's experiences? And we have to do that.

We have to do that when people have even made mistakes, which is a difficult conversation. I don't want to boil down, like, the drama is about cancel culture. I think when you think about who these characters are, how much money they make, the type of apartment they live in, they are in a, they are very, what we would call liberal people, and they are having conversations about, to your point, how much grace do you give someone,

how much understanding do you give someone, are you listening to them, Are you empathetic? If you realize that what Zendaya was about to do was an atrocious act, even being in that frame of mind. Dangerous. It's something that we don't like to think about. Right.

But none of the characters can provide her with any space to be like, hey, I want to understand how you got there and what's made you different. Maybe, like, I obviously don't fuck with it. Right. But I'm trying to literally do what we all want, which is like, treat you like a new wants human that can evolve and grow. Because if we're being real, when she tells

that story, no harm has actually happened to anyone. All of the harm is in the fact that like, hey, you got to a dark place where you were going to do something truly abhorrent and evil. That makes me look at you different.

Yeah. They weren't having that conversation. They were like, you're an evil person, you're a psychopath, we need to get our friend away from you. And that's how I think a lot of disagreements happened in the 21st century, which is like there's no understanding. It's your... But that's why, like, the council culture thing, that's why people

have gone on to that conversation so much. Because especially with Rachel, like, she's also done a bad... She actually did a bad thing, but is, like, holding herself as superior to her. Right? That's... That's where it was. I've moved on from it. Why can't you? Exactly. It's a level of, well,

you almost did this thing. You should, like, cancel the wedding, this, I'm not going to be your maid of order, this and this, which and which. But, like, you also did a bad thing. Like, is there no empathy? Is there no, like, hey, like, there's no understanding here. It's like, you've done, you thought about doing something bad. I'm better than you.

That's the thing that people are, when people see that, like, the first thing I think of online council culture. And there's also something else about the distinction between those two characters. And we do got to go, but there's something else, distinction between those two characters. One person, one person actioned themselves out of their thoughts. Not only did, one person in a way held themselves accountable. Not only did Zendaya's character not go through with what she went through with. She actually became the opposite of that.

She actually became someone who, whether it was because it was convenient for her with her schoolmates, or whether it was because she really did some, like, deep investigation into who she was or whether it's because she saw the results of what a community goes through when something like that happens. She saw the pain. She actually came out on the other side of it, like, a better person. She found community.

Like, she became a better person. Alana Haim's character, Haim, Alana Haim's character, never did. No. She actually skirted any type of consequence for what happened, which is why she was univolved, which is why throughout the movie, she just continuously gets worse.

Exactly. Because in the situation that we are discussing that we are talking about, she actually escapes doing something pretty fucked up with nothing ever happening to her. Whereas for Zendaya's character, she doesn't directly suffer consequences, but she shares in the pain of everyone around having watching this, having watched this happen.

So she has to get out of it through doing stuff. She has to become the other side of what she was. And that's the person that they know. But do you think, like, and I think it's the question that we have been constantly asking since the beginning of time, do you actually want to provide a person with the opportunity to give back? Like, if you change the characters, like, let's say this was about race. If you have a friend that has done something racist, do you want them to have the chance to be like, how do I give back to the community?

How do I learn? How do I change? Or do you want to do the easier thing, which is like, you're a racist. I never want to talk to you. Get the fuck up out of my face. The answer to that question is very simple, is we used to. And the only reason why we used to, it's not that people were better than, the only reason why we used to is because. there wasn't a constant reminder of it.

Right. So that's the like, inundation of information, like things used to happen. And then they used to just not happen after that. Like they used to, something happened. It was terrible.

It was bad. And that's good and bad, right? Because there are also people who have done really heinous things who have just been able to skate on the fact that the next record they put out, the next boxing match that they won,

the next election that they won, kind of washed over that terrible thing that they did. Right. Now those things exist in perpetuity. you have the video, do you have the account of the accuser, it has a place that it can live, you can go watch it every single time, you have the terrible thing that the person that they did,

it's a tweet, it's right there, it's static, it becomes its own little Bible. So you can read any time you want, and it re-informed you on who the person is, and it makes you re-investigate everything that they've ever said. Like, are they, which version of them is the real them? Yeah.

So the question, it's just harder now, but it takes effort. And they don't want to give Zendaya. Like, Zendaya has actually put in the effort. I'm not saying, like, She was perfect. But I do think that's what I thought the genius of the movie was, was like showing that I'm like,

it's never going to be enough maybe for anyone who is not her husband. Her husband is giving her the chance to be like, actually, I realize how terrible of a person I am, and I want understanding, and I want someone to deliver some empathy to me. And sometimes that might be all you get, where it's like you only might have one or two people in your life

who was like, actually I want to see if you can change and grow and I want to support you versus like the Alana or my character who are just like hey you're not one of you're not one of the good people anymore you're dead to me yeah but it's also the perfect like lesson for a soon to be married person is like hey if you need if you're gonna be my husband if you're gonna be my wife you've got to know that the bad things about me are things that you have to deal with midnight meter what do you got all right midnight meter y'all know what it is one to 12 one being the worst 11 and 12 reserve for game changers.

Right now, we might go up. I'm going to give this one the most solid of eights that I can give it. Fantastic. It's a nine for me. Okay. Almost a 10. Nine for me too.

Nine for me too. Nine as well. Almost a 10. Almost a 10. We got midnight mulligans. We'll see. Almost a 10. Also, this movie makes some money.

Like, yeah. He's not doing this. It's doing good. What do you think? Michael Jackson movie? Higher or lower than the drama? Michael Jackson will make. Oh, come on.

Yeah. All right. That's a wrap. Programming on Friday, but matches discusses pragmatta and mouse PI for hire. On Thursday, the House of Ardard does a mid-season check-in with Daredevil. I produce today are Jamie Yukic, Devin Boroldi, join me a dinner on socials and additional production from Arjuna Ramgapowell. Chuck, take us out. The boys is heating up.

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