The Ringer-Verse - 'The Falcon and the Winter Soldier' Episode 5 Instant Reactions

Episode Date: April 16, 2021

The Midnight Boys ride again as Charles Holmes and Van Lathan give their instant reactions to the penultimate episode of 'The Falcon and the Winter Soldier' (05:15). They talk about major revelations, character by character, and what the episode's big cameo means for the future of the MCU. Hosts: Van Lathan and Charles Holmes Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver

problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfairadio.com. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul predicts. Predict the spread, total points, and even the game winner. Sign up and get a $25 bonus. Offered by Fandual Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant, 18 plus.

Bonus is non-withdrawable and expire seven days after receipt. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at Fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. Welcome into the Ringerverse. Wow, the Midnight Boys. We are back.

It is me, Van Lathen, the host of Higher Learning with Rachel Lindsay and Van Lathen here at the Ringer. I am joined by Charles Holmes, who is the host of the Ringer music show. And you are in the Ringerverse right now. This is the Ringer's Nexus feed for all things, aliens, and droids, and wizards. right now we're focused on the Falcon and the Winter Soldier. This is the Instant Reaction Show. Remember, on Friday, we do the Instant Reaction Show with us to Midnight Boys and then on Tuesday.

Mallory does a deep dive analysis, answers all of your questions, takes on the big, huge concepts from this episode. I got to tell you, man, they're getting really heady over there on Mal's show. Oh, man, talk about it. I was just like, man, I'm in the rest of, ringer versus university over here, man. They are doing that thing.

They're getting really heady over here. No, they're not making us look bad. We're instant reactions. We're impulsive. We're emotional. Mao and the crew, they sit with it for a couple of days. They get to watch it twice, three times. Like, me, I'm watching it and coming straight to the pop.

We shoot from the hip. Before we get into it, before we do the 30-second recap. Before we do the 30-second recap, I have to remind people real quick. Charles. We're going to have bonus episodes coming from Mortal Kombat and an invincible season recap coming pretty soon. So I just want to make people aware of that. What are you going to say? But there's something really important.

I believe today is your birthday, van. Oh, today is my 40th birthday. Happy birthday. And I couldn't have asked for a better present than this episode of the Falcon and the Winter Soldier. Because I got to be honest with you, bro. this is an amazing episode of television. Talk about it. Talk about it.

And for the 30 second recap for our birthday present, our producer TD is giving you an extra 10 seconds. Got to. I was going to talk some shit. You know what I'm saying? We're amending the rules a little bit, but it's fine. It's your birthday.

So I'm not going to say nothing. Got to. This is normally the time where we do Nerd News Minute and clue you in to everything that's going on in the world of nerddom and fandom. But we don't have enough time for that. This was too much. So right now I'm going to tell you guys,

spoiler zone coming up. All right. Forget about Nerd News Minute for a second. We got too much TV to talk about. So if you're listening beyond this point, there are going to be spoilers in this episode. Okay. So let's get to episode five of the Falcon and the Winter Soldier Truth.

And of course, if we're going to do this, this means I have to do it again. I have to take my shot. and I guess what is now the 30 or 40 second recap. The 40 second recap. Look, I don't understand why you're so upset with people giving me some grace here on the recaps, man. Come on, man, because I believe in you. I'm here to push you.

I'm the bucky to your Sam. I believe in you. More like the John Walker, but that's okay. Okay, cool. Actually, Steve, it's better if you count me in. 40 second recap in three, two, one, go. Sam and Bucky retrieved the shield after teaming up to defeat John Walker. Then back on U.S. soil, a defiant Walker gets stripped of the Captain American title

as his descent into villainy truly begins. Bucky makes good with the Dora Milage as he aids them in capturing Zemo, who is now off to the raft prison. Sam then visits Isaiah Bradley for a heart-to-heart conversation about Isaiah's time as a super soldier and the truth about the legacy of the shield. Sam and Bucky Bond in Louisiana before Sam goes full rocky training, the episode ends with the flaskmasters finally making their play to get Sam ready to intervene. but this time with a new yet to be revealed gear courtes in Waukonda.

Lastly, we see John Walker building a new shield of his own and a post-credit scene. Time, Steven. What's the official time? Let's know. 38.66. And with this, ban on his birthday. The 42nd recap has been born.

Because I don't think 30. No, no, that's a one-time deal on your birthday. That's a one-time deal. Thank you. you for the extra 10 seconds. All right. So before we get into unpacking this episode, which, like, I think we both agree was fantastic. Give me your instant reactions here. They've been hyping this episode up for a while, especially the showrunner Malcolm Spellman. And at first, I was like, I was like, what's going to happen? What's going to happen?

And then, like, I was disappointed. And then as I sat with it, my mind started racing with the possibilities of what this means. Everything, all of the stuff that happened in this episode means for the future of the MCU. So we are getting into the Falcon and the Winter Soldier Talk right now. So this is your final spoiler alert for the show. All right. So when the big reveal that Malcolm Spellman, the cameo that everybody had been saying,

wait for it, is my girl, Julia Louis Dreyfus, is Contessa Valentina, Allegra, Day Fontaine, aka Madame Hydra, when it happened, I squealed with delight. Please, Van, let me know what happened when you saw that. So I loved it as well. It's a comic book fans reveal, though. Yes.

And I think that's very important for everyone to understand. If you're up on the comic books and you know about this character, you know about her relationship with Nick Fury, you know about her as Madam Hydra, and then you're super duper excited when you see her, right? You're super duper excited when she announces herself. If you don't know the comics, you don't care. Yes.

And this is kind of an interesting thing to see how MCU fans and Marvel Comics fans meet at this point. Because for me, I'm like, wow, that's cool. And then I'm with Kalika. Kalika's like, who is that? I'm like, well, she became Madam Hydra, but she was a shield agent for a while. And she was a longtime girlfriend of Nick Fury and all of these things. and she's such a super cool character to comic book fans. But my fiance has watched all the episodes of every MCU show that's ever happened.

Of course, they've only been two. And then she's also watched all of the MCU movies. She has no idea who that is. So as far as a big reveal to her, it was a letdown. And so I'm wondering how people that are just hardcore MCU fans are going to look at that. It's almost like the White Vision thing. the white vision thing ended up being to people that are huge

MCU fans, not a big deal because they don't know who why vision is. For comic book, for people who are going Wednesday Warriors, I think this was not only a big reveal, but I think Marvel, we actually know it in a recent Vanity Fair article, they were saying that this reveal

was supposed to happen in Black Widow. So they were already setting this up as something that was supposed to be for the next phase, like a big siren. And for those that don't know, you know, the contessa, she was created by Jim Sterenco in 1967. Like you said, Van, she's an on again, off again romance with Nick Fury. She led the Femi Force. She has been a Russian operative. She's been Madame Hydra. So I honestly don't know how they're going to play her. But what I want to know from you, Van, is how do we

feel about Julia Louis Dreyfus before we get deep, deep, deep into the episode? I love her. I love her. I love Julia Louis Dreyfus. She's got, and she's also got the perfect blend of acting chops and snark level for the MCU. She's almost like a, in a way, I don't want to compare her to anybody, but she's almost like a female Robert Downey Jr. in that way. She can give you a straight up performance, but also give you enough on-screen charisma to make any character interesting, especially one that is villainous to a degree.

So I think it's going to be super interesting to see her, like, as that character. A little different iteration of the character than I grew up with, obviously, but still it's going to be pretty awesome.

Is she really quick? Is she now officially, did she take the hot crown from former Seinfeld actors from Marissa Tomei, aka Aunt May? Oh, uh,

well, no, but they're both beautiful women. I don't know what you want to say. I don't know what kind of podcast you want to do here. You want to do, you want to do,

who's hot. I'm like, nah, they're both beautiful ladies. They're about to give me trending in this bitch. They're both beautiful. Everyone is beautiful. Everyone, everybody, every person in the world is beautiful. That's my, don't ask me. It's not about to happen to me.

Fuck that. All right. So, um, so let's get back to the episode, though. Got it. You said that you were underwhelmed with this episode? No, at first. At first. At first.

They had been building this up. Everybody had been building this up as the episode. So I thought that this was going to be the action-packed episode. And instead, we got a very, very character-driven episode where basically every single character, whether it was Sam, Bucky, John Walker, all of these people got defining moments ahead of the last episode. And then once I started thinking about what's to happen next, I was like, oh, they needed this. They needed this time to breathe.

We got, oh, like, honestly. one of the best scenes between Sam and Bucky. We got a training montage. Like, we have so many things to talk about. So I actually do think that this was a really good episode. Maybe not as good as four, but still a very good episode. I think it's the best episode of the entire season. You say that after every single episode, Van?

No, I don't. Yes, you do. No, I don't. I didn't say that after episode one. You say that after every. But maybe they're getting better. Maybe they're getting better. So there's action.

And then there's something I like to call dramatic action. action. So action is big, huge things, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And then dramatic action and a comic book movies and television shows have to be good at this. They have to be good at making us care about superheroes talking. Because we always are going to care about superheroes fighting. But they have to make us care about superheroes talking. So there has to be action, even in a scene where nobody's throwing punches. This episode, so did that masterfully. Think about all the high leverage conversations you got here. You got Sam talking to Isaiah Bradley, uncovering not just a legacy of the super soldier Sam, but a legacy

of American systemic inequality and erasure and doing it in a very eloquent, not heavy-handed way. Then you got the montage that you talked about where they're building the boat. Really, they're not building a boat in that montage. They're building their friendship. Yes. The boat is a metaphor. Shout out to high school English. Yeah. The boat is a metaphor for something that is valuable, that is broken, and people are coming together to fix it, and then they come out more whole people. Then the conversation with Sam and Buck, right, when they're talking about that. We'll talk about that a little bit later. Very, very high leverage. enthralling stuff,

can't take your eyes away from the screen type of stuff. And then maybe the single best scene, I wouldn't say the best scene, but way up there, what Wyatt Russell is doing in this show is,

talk about it, is insane. The fight scene between him, Sam and Buck was amazing, but then him standing in front of the U.S. government and indicting them

on what they made, him? Wow. He was like, you made me this way. And I was like, God damn. Whoa. Whoa. Just amazing stuff. So when I look at all of that together, this was one of the episodes where I could barely catch my breath.

Oh, wait. Also, we got a, don't forget, we got a Bucky and Zemo moment. Oh, excuse me. I completely forgot about that. Bucky and Zemo were so much of the two characters right there are defined in that moment. Bucky decides not to kill. Yes. And Zemo decides to go quietly.

Two turns for both of those characters right there. So many things being revealed. So let's do this. Because this was such a character-driven episode, let's take it character by character and kind of discuss what went on. Okay. So let's talk about Sam. Sam, one of Sam's big moments in this is the truth talk that he had with Isaiah Bradley.

Okay. This is a very, very political moment in the MCU. Maybe the most overtly political moment I've ever seen in the MCU. What are your thoughts on that scene? That, to me, was the heart of not only this episode, but it was arguably the heart of the season. Because when he goes back to talk to Isaiah Bradley, it was something that we had wanted since that reveal.

We wanted to know more about Isaiah Bradley, what happened to him, how he got experimented. And basically what he says is that, there was a group of soldiers that were getting experimented on. And they went off on a mission. A bunch of them got captured. And then the U.S. government basically wanted to erase them. They wanted to erase these experiments like they never existed.

And Isaiah went by himself to go rescue everyone. And we have this very, very emotional scene where Isaiah is basically recounting everything he's lost. He lost all of the soldiers. It seems like the U.S. government killed them anyway after he rescued them. When he went to jail, he lost his wife. And then he lost his legacy because Sam is pushing him. He's like, why didn't you pick up the shield? Why don't you tell America what you did? And Isaiah is basically like, they wouldn't let me.

And I think that is such a strong, how do I put this? It's such a strong moment because I do think generations, when we talk about the differences in generations of African Americans, even when I think about my grandparents, civil rights leaders were there for the Million Man March and the NWACP. You know, you hear about everything that they fought for. And sometimes you question them, why did you do things this way?

Why do you do things this way? And when you sit down, you realize just how high the hurdles were for them to make them shorter for us. And I love that. Wow, well said. That older generation, younger generation, kind of coming together. And I just thought it was done beautifully. It was.

Something else about that scene. Do you remember in Captain America the first Avenger how Captain America became Captain America? Yes, I believe I do. But refresh my memory. Obviously, Steve Rogers becomes the super soldier we know from the advancements of Abraham Erskine and, you know, the fighter A's and Super Soldier Ceremony

and all that and stuff like that. But he was a joke, if you remember the film. Yes. They were parading him around. It was only until some soldiers were kidnapped and they were deciding not to go in and save them. And Steve Rogers went anyway. Remember, Bucky was one of those soldiers.

Oh, damn, you're right. Yeah, and Steve Rogers went anyway. And he brought those, he brought them back. And he, you know, Tommy Lee Jones was there. And he's talking to Agent Carter. And everybody was like, give it up for Captain America. So he went off script and did some. because he thought that it was right,

and he was rewarded for it and made Captain America for it. Whereas Isaiah did the exact same thing, and they completely destroyed his life for it. You're blowing my mind right now. So when you think about that, I think, wow, that is insane. Even without even saying,

Captain America did the same thing, and they did that. They're just letting you know. It's interesting to see how people will respond to the conversation. I thought the conversation was beautiful. I thought it also represented something that happens inside of the black community. There are people that are so scarred and so unbelievably affected by living lives under the thumb of systemic oppression that they just think there's nothing you can do to change it.

And any way that you accept the ideals of America or any way you even do, believe in those ideals that you're stupid for that. America has shown us nothing but oppression, like Isaiah said, for 500 years, and you're going to be let down. Then there's a different school that says the rights that we're fighting for here in this country, we're fighting for them because they're a guarantee

to us as Americans. And so it is the American part of us that is making us fight against. the oppression that really is both incredibly American, but then also un-American. So it's very complicated. These are conversations that are had inside the community. And in that scene, Isaiah and Sam were avatars for that.

You know what I mean? It's like... Oh, absolutely. Right. Like, why are you going to go join a white man's military? Well, Sam is already a military man. So he has a sense of honor and duty and loyalty to America that is already there. is he willing to take the next step and become the living embodiment of America?

Because in order to embody America, you have to embody what happened to Isaiah Bradley too. Well, there are two lines that Isaiah Bradley said that really spoke to kind of this conflict. The first was, if you ain't bitter, you're blind. And I do think that what's so important is like as you grow older, I especially think as an African American, it is so hard not. to become filled with that bitterness because you're dealing with centuries of oppression

and you see in Isaiah Bradley where it's like what did fighting really get him? What did standing up for his principles actually get him? It got him a race. It got the one person in his life, his wife like he couldn't see her. Everything was taken away from him

and then you see Sam and he's trying to come to this realization and Bucky actually says it later in the episode where Bucky not only apologizes for himself, but he apologizes for Steve,

for giving him the shield and not thinking of what it meant for a black man. So when Isaiah says they will never let a black man be Captain America and even if they did, no self-respecting black man would ever want to be, that to me is so important because Sam and Bucky

in this episode are now, weirdly, I think Bucky is now on the opposite side where he's like, yeah, we never really should have given Sam the shield or we never should have put that burden on him without discussing it. And Sam is like, I can't let Isaiah and his bitterness take me off of my path.

And I think that's such an interesting thing because technically Sam and Isaiah are both right. They're both right. They both can coexist. Well, Isaiah is both people. Isaiah is also the they that he's talking. about. Yes.

Because when he says they will never let a black man be Captain America, it seemed as if he was talking about the mainstream white America or the status quo or whatever. And then he then says, and no self-respective black man will want to be, meaning then he's not letting Sam become Captain America, right? So the way that it goes is like, they'll never let you do it. They're just not going to let it happen.

But then also, you're not going to have the freedom to do it. And I'm saying that you don't have the freedom to do it. I'm telling you what you can't do, which is antithetical to somebody being able to do whatever it is they want to do. By the way, something else that got that, that Madam Hydra said when she was talking to John Walker is very important here. She said, technically the shield doesn't belong to the U.S. government. It's not a legal gray area, she says. It's a legal gray area, right?

the title of Captain America isn't even America's to give. It's not America's title to give. That's why they cast the wrong guy in it. They cast the wrong guy in it because it's not their shield. The shield belongs to the values. And so to me, I'm championed at the bit.

People say chomping, champing, I'm champion at the bit. Now, Sam then gets to, Sam and Buck are then, you know, down in Louisiana. Shout out to Mackey there. You know, he's from Louisiana, as am I. He's from New Orleans. Wait, you're from Louisiana? From Baton Rouge. Yeah, shout up.

Yeah, from Baton. From Baton. So, he, like, Anthony Mackie's getting the home state, getting the boot involved. I appreciate you there for that, Mackey. What do you think of the training montage with the Shield? The pre-montage was him and Buck. having that conversation. We're going to come back to that conversation

a little bit later where they're throwing the shield around and each other's catching it. And then the one that he does when it's him by himself and he seems like he's getting ready for a battle, getting ready to be Captain America. I love a training montage.

I think training montage is the pinnacle of cinema, in my opinion. And what I loved about this training montage and what I loved about this episode is that they're slowly building up Sam's fighting style. Because even if you noticed with John Walker,

like he can't go toe to toe with John Walker because he doesn't have the Super Soldier serum. So he has to creatively think how to fight. And what I think is so cool about when he's training with this shield, he's doing flips, he's doing these different acrobatic moves. And I'm thinking,

oh, in his mind, he's thinking of when he has the wings on, because he's going to have to catch this in midair and outmaneuver people a lot of times that are stronger than him, that are meta-humans. So I thought that, like, us on a building up Falcon as a cool hero. It was dope.

And I also think that when we look at like the layer under it, for this whole entire series, we've been like, why does Sam not want to be Captain America? And you got like, like you said, the dramatic action. This was like dramatic action where he's finally saying, I'm going to be Captain America. And that to me was beautiful. What did you think of it, though? He committed to it. I loved it.

they managed to do it. I said in the first episode that the hardest thing to do for this series was going to be made to make Falcon cool. Yes. To make us believe

that Falcon is cool to make Falcon a cool character to make it look like Falcon could win some fights. And, you know, we haven't talked about the fight scene between Sam and John and Bucky yet,

but we will. That was awesome. He looked amazing there and he really looked cool doing somebody. That obviously wasn't Anthony Mackey flipping all around and stuff like that.

But just the stuff They're introducing a style and a specificity to the character. Not just on the wing, on your left. I'm taking center sage here. And so this is how I fight. This is the way I move. And this was going to work for me. So I thought it was dope.

I also thought, you know, him having a training montage, not at Avengers compound or not on an army barracks somewhere. But in his actual home, in his yard, just shows how closer to humanity that character is. That's a regular guy that's doing extraordinary things, and he's got to work at it. And you can also tell that because they both knew how to throw the shield, that Steve had been giving them some shield lessons.

You know, Steve have been training them up. Wait, you think so? Yeah, because they even knew how to throw the shield before. You know, so, and I guess it was, in the comic books, of course, Falcon has been training with Captain America forever. I guess because they never showed it in the MCU. Maybe it wasn't top of mind for him, but he's been training with Steve Rogers for a long time.

You say so. All right, what's in the box? What's in the box, you think? We know what's in the box. So Bucky calls in his last favor to Wakanda. I was just like, damn, he's still got favors. Like, they really like the White Wolf. They must really like.

They told him, they told them, don't come to Wakanda no more for a while. But, yeah, we'll still make something for you. The Wakanda's a tricky to figure out, man. But go ahead. It's definitely the Captain America costume. That's what I also think. Like, maybe we should transition to Bucky.

To me, it's going to be the wings and the Captain America costume in there. And what I think is that says a lot about Bucky because Bucky's trading in his last Wakanda favor for Sam. Because he now realizes after being mad at him for so long, no, you are Captain America. And I need to now push you to be Captain America. And I think that that's so beautiful, but I want to bring up something something very, very important, then about Bucky,

because I think Bucky redeemed himself, but he still did one very annoying thing. Bucky comes down to Louisiana to help Sam build his boat, to give him what I believe is his costume, and then, you know, he guilt trips Sam into, like,

letting him stay over. And he does this thing where Bucky knows he's hot, and he starts hitting on Sam's sister. And that's one thing where I'm like, Dog, dog, dog. You can't be flashing the pearly whites for your boy's sister like this. Why?

Why? Why? I guess, tell me why. I just think that after everything that they've been through, you know, you got to at least give it like a couple months before you start hollering at the sister. That's disrespectful. I don't think so. You don't think that's disrespectful. I think the brown sugar tastes better down in Louisiana.

And Bucky got to get some. That's what I think. I think the brown sugar tastes. better down in Louisiana. Bucky took one look at that chocolate. Think about it. Bucky was in Waconda for a long time. That's what I wanted to ask.

Bucky was in Waconda for a long time. He was probably in there. Ayo coming in there. I want to see some of those scenes of the tension between Bucky and Ayo. Because it seems like this. Bucky is off the milk right now. Look, but he had fuck with no white chicks.

Like not in this whole thing. You know what I'm saying? But he had fuck with no white chicks. The last white chick we saw Bucky holler at was Asian. Carter. She dissed him and he got off the reservation. You know what I'm saying? So I had no problem with it. As a matter fact, I just thought it was disrespectful.

I was like, yo, give it a couple months. You stand in a they just invited you into their home. You know, you're sleeping on their couch. And now you want to start throwing, like, shooting your shot. A little disrespectful. But I do appreciate that, you know, he's like, Bucky got some moves. He knows

what he's doing. I hope Bucky takes Sam's sister on a Disney ride called Smash Mountain. I hope I want to see him together. You want him to have a white boy summer? Them kid, white boy summer. White boy summer.

Pucky with the white face. I want Sarah to have a white boy summer. Go ahead and get just a look, look, man. See, he was already bonding with the kids and all of that stuff like that. Whatever. No, I see, and that's the biggest dirty bag move where you, like, where you playing with the kids, I'm like, you have to. Come on, bro.

Really? You have to. You have to. There was a girl with kids. I dated back when I was. I was like 25, and I actually bought her sons at Xbox just to occupy their time. Go play. Go play with the Xbox.

Because I'm not here to play, okay? Because I didn't come over to play. Taking notes. I came over to be real serious. Okay? So go play with the Xbox. Now, so it's probably vibranium wings and his new cap suit. Interesting, once again, that the suit that represents America wasn't made in America.

It was made Macaanda. Wait, also. Buy a more noble. people. By a noble people. By, by, in terms of the MCU. In terms of the MCU. It's interesting that they, that they, that that suit was made in Wakanda.

What are you going to say? It speaks to Bucky's transformation that in this episode, he grows so much because I think Bucky's arc this whole time has been about am I a killer deep down? Am I, am I the winter soldier? Who am I if Steve doesn't believe in me? And to see him have the chance to kill Z email and not do. it and and basically hand him over to the Dora Malaj for him to ask Ayo for one more favor, and it's not for him, it's for Sam, to realize that not only does Sam need his wings back,

but he needs a suit, and he trusts that the Wakandans can do it better than anyone. It just speaks to like the growth of that character, and I love to see it because you know I was harsh on him. I was harsh on Bucky throughout this whole thing, and he impressed me. He impressed me this episode. What did you think about the conversation between Sam and Bucky down on the Bayou there in Louisiana? What did you think about the conversation where Sam is telling Bucky how he should make amends

or what he has to do to fix his past? What did you think about that conversation? Because I had very strong feelings. So I thought that whole conversation was heavy-handed, but then again, I don't come to the MCU for subtlety. But what I loved about it is that it goes back to. who Sam is and who we were introduced to and we're a soldier.

He is somebody who is known for helping soldiers. And I think early in the season, everybody was very critical of the therapy sessions between Bucky and his therapist. And what we see is that Sam makes that final breakthrough. He is the one to tell him like, Bucky, you cannot let... He basically like, yo, fuck Steve.

Like, Steve's opinion don't mean shit, bro. Like, it's you. You need to be a good person. You need to be a good person. to decide that you want to not be an Avenger, but you want to amend. And I thought that that was like a great scene. It did so much.

But did you not like it? I did like it, but I didn't think it was about what they were talking about. What do you think it was about? I thought it was about white guilt. All right, we're about to go Galaxy Brain. Let's go to the Galaxy Brain Corner. Okay.

So this is why I thought it was about, right? What he told Bucky was he's like, you're still having nightmares. You're still feeling bad about all of these things that you've done. You're still harping on it. You don't feel like you're still the same person. He said, listen, instead of saying sorry to all of those people, right? You say sorry, do something about it.

Go and actually change something. Like, help them, help somebody's life. Do something and actually change it, right? and he's talking to him, and a lot of times, that's how I feel when something crazy happens and people start posting black squares on their Instagram. That's amazing. That's dope. It's amazing to realize something is wrong and to decide that you want it to be better.

That's the first step. But there are things that have actually happened over the course of American history. There's stuff that's gone on. and if you want to be a part of a better American present and future, then actually roll up your sleeves to change some of these things that are still existing every single day. Don't just feel bad about them. Don't just feel bad about them.

Just don't be haunted about him. Be actionable about him. And you listen to Bucky. Bucky has done a lot of bad things, but in a lot of ways, it's always been about him, right? It's been about if Steve was wrong about you, he was wrong about me. So let me not let you. do this so that I have more faith in myself.

So it's about me, it's me. But if you've done all these terrible things, well, then how could it be about you? It's not about you. Like, live your life in service and go forth and try to make things better. And so when I watch the scene, I'm like, that's what Sam is basically telling him.

And he's telling him this out of love. He's not rebuking him. He is not coming down on him. He's not chastising him. He says, I'm going to give you a little tough love. It's not that you don't love the people that you share your community with. You just want them to love you enough to make a better community. So when I saw that, I'm telling you, to me, this episode was in its back.

And so that's what I got from that scene. All right, now I'm totally on your side now. I also do think they do say it in the episode where basically they're like, I think Sam challenges him and he's just like basically like you did this stuff to make you feel better. To you, exactly, to make like you feel better. And I think I tell my white friends all this all the time. I'm just like I question. I'm just like, guys, it's kind of funny.

Whenever you ask a white person, do you think you're inherently racist? Every white person says no. And it's kind of like Sasquatch. It's like if everybody, like if everybody's saying they're not a racist, then where are all they're racist? And I do think that it's a very, very cool seed because you realize that for Bucky to be a good ally, not only to Sam as a friend, but as a white man,

he needs to realize, like, dude, you're not always going to feel good about the things that you do. You need to trust me as the black man in this situation. It's not about you right now. Right, right. It's bigger than you. That reminds me of my favorite quote that my dad ever said. One of my aunts, my dad's sister,

accused him of being a male chauvinist and sexist. My dad said, I ain't no male chauvinist or no sexist. But I know one thing, my wife better be in the house at 5.30. I was like, even at 11, I was like, yo. I was like, this guy is special. My dad is special. I got to see where you get from now. I see where you get.

He's like, I know, that guy, that's a special man. Van Terry Lathen C. I love you, Dad. Okay. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable Internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with Internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services,

plus 24-7 U.S.-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum Business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn. more. Restrictions apply. Service is not available in all areas. This episode is brought to you by weather tech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need weather tech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer.

you don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. This episode is brought to by Viori. When it comes to close, that score high in both comfort and style, Viori is my MVP. Sunday performance joggers? Oh yeah.

They have the perfect. I could watch a game and then go out to dinner vibe. And the metapant, that's my number one. I need to look like I tried option. Get 20% off your first purchase at Viori.com slash Simmons and discover the versatility of VIII. Biori clothing. Exclusions apply,

visit the website for full terms and conditions. John Walker. First of all, I got to talk about the two-on-one fight earlier in the episode that starts off the episode between John Walker and Bucky and Sam. Just absolutely amazing. Absolutely amazing. People are going to compare it to the two-on-one fight, Bucky versus Iron Man. I actually compare it to a different two-on-one fight. I compare it to the duel of the faith.

in phantom menace. Hear me out. Before you make faces. Before you make faces, hear me out. I immediately thought of it. I immediately thought of it. Because in that situation, you have two guys of one philosophy

and then one guy with the same set of skills but on the other side and they're teaming up to beat him. Even in the way that the fight went, you know what I mean? Except one guy didn't get killed and rest of peace, Quigong, Jin, and all of that stuff like that. Your comparison is, like, falling apart already.

No, I'm being for real. It reminded me in the scene of that. Like, they were fighting like a dark Jedi, like a member of the Sith. Who's Quigon Jin in this? It would have to be Bucky just because of powers. Bucky would be Quigongin Jinn. Quigon Jinn is the smarter, wiser person that's teaching a brash, young, Obi-Wan Kenobi about life.

Yeah, but here's a deal, though. It's not quite a one-to-one. But even in, so in dual of the fates, when they walk away, who's the last person to speak? Quigon says, we'll handle this. And in this situation, what does Bucky say? Yeah, we do. And then they fight.

Like, we got this. All right, I'll give it to you. I'm going to give it to you. Now, what did you think of the fight? I thought it was amazing. And the reason I thought it was amazing is because it, you're slowly seeing Sam and Bucky throughout this, season. If we compare episode, I think it was one, which episode was it where they were on the

truck? Was that episode two? That was, that had to have been episode two. Yeah, if we compare episode two to episode five throughout this whole journey, they've been terrible together. They have not worked together. They have not had any type of chemistry. Absolutely right. And this is the episode when you really start to see them working together towards a common goal and a common enemy. And it's not like Bucky or Sam are overpowering each other. They're working together. And the best way I can demonstrate that is at the end when they're trying to get the shield away from John Walker, they're working together.

Like Bucky is holding John so that Sam can yank it. And I think he breaks his arm off. And I was like, God damn. And that to me is beautiful because they easily could have been like from the beginning. You know, Sam, Bucky, they're great at fighting. But no. It really slowly, but surely every episode they got better, better, as their emotional journey got more sound.

Yeah, you're right. And who knows how it happened, like you said, but they seem to be on the same page, really for this entire episode. Yes. And I'll be honest with you, it took them being on the same page to overpower him because he was kicking their ass. We forget that before this, John was the most badass. soldier in the entire U.S. armed forces.

Super trained, unbelievably skilled. And it looked like, even now that he has a serum, that he's actually even too much for Bucky. Here's where I'm going to push back on that. Okay. I think this is, if we want to get to, you know, the dramatic part of this, is that I've always been wondering. I'm like, why is Bucky not as much of a badass as he was in Winter Soldier?

He was in Civil War? And what I realized is, it's not that John Walker is better than them. it's that John Walker has broke bad. He wants to kill. He's just killed someone. He no longer has that moral guide. And I think the reason why we've seen Bucky's fighting style change

is because he's getting to an emotional place where he does not want to kill his enemies. He doesn't kill Zima. So he's learning right now how to be a fighter that's not just trying to take people out right then and there. And it's best in with his style

Because is that what you're saying? Because Steve didn't want to do that. And Steve was still expert hand-to-hand combat. But maybe Steve was- Bucky's never had to do that. If we think about he's been programmed. To kill. To kill for so long.

So he has to re-teach himself. Even we see later in the episode when he's just like with the arm, he's like, I'm right-handed. Like I don't immediately think about it. So you have to think about when he was brainwashed. He didn't have to think about left first right. He was just a killing machine.

and now he is re-learning how to teach himself how to fight. So that's how I built it in. All right, maybe I'm galaxy-brainer. No, no, no, no. I get you. I understand. It makes a lot of sense. Now, so the fight scene is over.

John Walker is subdued. They break his arm. The fight thing, by the way, is like I said before, it's really great. It's really great even before Falcon gets his wings ripped off because he's using the falconness. He's using his suit to fight. And Falcon finally looks cool in combat. It finally is working in combat to watch Falcon fight. The characters just come such a long way in these last five episodes.

Then we get John Walker before the U.S. Senate. Supposing that this is a subcommittee hearing, armed forces subcommittee hearing of some sort, answering to the brass there for what he did in the last episode when he killed one of the flagsmasters who did not kill. Lamar Hoskins, aka a.k.a. Battlestar. I have to admit, they did not court martial him, but they retired him immediately with no rank or pay. No benefits. It was rough. No benefits. It was rough. I got to be real. I think they were a little harsh on him. Am I wrong for feeling

that way? I thought that they went a little hard on John. And I think that what he showed, in that episode, you know what I mean? In that scene, I mean, when he was like, yo, you guys made me, like, you guys made me, I've done everything you ever asked me to do. I kind of felt him a little bit. Well, remember from last episode, what I did find funny, like, they were getting mad now,

he got those medals from what we learned in episode four from doing some heinous stuff. And I've got to say, yeah. And I forget, like some, he kind of alludes to he had to make some tough decisions, and throughout this whole thing, it wasn't like he was not mowing people down. So it's very funny that, like, they're just mad that he got caught.

It doesn't seem like they're actually mad that he killed an innocent person. They're mad that he got out on camera, which I found very funny. So when he, like, when he gets, like, he decides to turn real villain, I actually didn't think it was that. Like, I got it.

I was just like, if you take away my benefits after everything I do for you, and I got the Super Soldier Serum, oh, no, I'm kicking ass. I'm kicking ass. Yeah, it's just another. example of not looking at yourself and asking, are you a part of what created someone and just

lowering the guillotine on somebody just for show? It's like, okay, are we really going to talk about what John Walker is? Because really what he is, is a guy who served his country for the right reasons. And then because he's seen so much, he's got PTSD. He has all of these things that they should have seen before they made him Captain America. Exactly what Abraham Erskine saw in Steve Rogers is exactly what's not there. And so when I looked at it, it seemed as if, you know, he went off, he did something terrible, right? And he did something terrible. He went too far in a fight against enemy combatants that he views as terrorists that have to be stopped.

And it was horrible and bad and everything that's wrong. But it still felt to me callous the way they just cut back. with him and made it look like they had no part in him being who he is. Wait, let's take it back to episode four. You know, they were saying the serum only heightens who you already are. It's true. When Walker looks at them and he's like, y'all made me this way, that to me says everything. Because if that group, if the U.S. government made John Walker this way, when he takes the serum,

it's only going to heighten all of the darkness that the U.S. government forced upon him, all of the tough choices that the U.S. government made him do as a soldier. And I thought that that was brilliant because it harkens back to that line. Like, hey, when you have the super soldier serum, it's only going to make you more of you.

And if he's a soldier, it made him more of a soldier. And it made him more mindless. So I love it. Very true. Very true. So in terms of Valentina Allegra, who do you think she is working with? You think she's working with Hydra? Is there a chance that she's working with Shield

in the capacity that she's working in right now? Because what she says is, when she's talking to John Walker right after that scene, she says, what you did got some people very interested. Are those people, Hydra in this sense? Could they be Shield? Could they be somebody else? Who do you think she's working for at this particular point?

because she's been on both sides of that thing. So, right now, I would have to say it's probably Shield. And the reason I want to say that, or a darker version of Shield, is because we see Sharon talking to Betrach. Oh, yeah, we got to talk about that. We see Zemo being taken away,

and he's going to the raft. The Dora Mollajar going to take him to the raft. And now we see Contessa trying to recruit John Walker. It seems like Shield is saying, need our own dark adventures. We need our own team. And that to me is very, very interesting. So part of me thinks like Loe-Kishy's Hydra,

but right now Nick Fury is on the moon somewhere. Just to get off John Walker, we see him making a shield at the end of the day with his medals of honor. I don't know if his medals of honor made a vibranium or anything like that or if he's just going to have a regular Costco type of shield, whatever it's going to be.

What is it going to do with that Trader Joe's as shield against pure vibranium. I don't know what he thinks he's going to do. But he met with Lamar's parents, and then he got, I guess what he felt like was to go ahead to go finish the job against Carly and the rest of the people who actually killed Lamar

because he was looking for some absolution from somebody and he got it from them. Even though he lied to them and told them that it was the guy that he killed that actually had killed and we know that it was.

It was Carly who had done it. Okay, the Flack Smashers in this episode, she seems more sinister, great acting by Aaron Kellyman in this one. She seems more sinister. She seems to care less about stuff. I remember there's one point where they were going to go do something. I can't remember what it was. I literally just watched the episode.

And one of her compatriots says, we can't do that. She says, we're criminals, remember? So they're going to go in. What she says is that Sharon basically calls up Petrach. Petrach is going to work with the flag smashers because all Patroc wants... Ah, he's a criminal. Yeah, he's a criminal. And he basically is only doing this to get back at the Falcon.

And the guy, you know, Carly's buddy, is just like, we don't work with criminals. And she's like, homie. We are the fucking criminals, bro. We are criminals. We are criminals. So the episode actually ends with them hijacking a GRC meeting in a terrorist action. And I guess they plan in some way to either enlist. eliminate these GRC, they wake up sleeper cells that they have,

sleeper agents that they have all over New York City. Sam then from Torres gets, you know, the information that they're going to be in New York and we're, we, it's fair to suppose that he's on his way there. I don't want to talk about the Flag Smashers as much in this episode. They kind of serve as a device. They don't have very much to do. But I do want to talk about the fact that Sharon Carter is the one who hires Batroc the Leaper.

Yes. This almost ensures to me that she is not powerbroker. I don't think she's powerbroker. You want to know this might be a Coke Baby Charles moment. You know who I like saw him on the screen? I'm like, what if he's the power broker? I was like Torres. He's the one we least expect.

He's always there. Maybe he's a young power broker. I'll tell you one thing. I haven't heard anyone say Torres. All right. This is why I think it's Torres. because like from the beginning, from the first episode, he's the one that introduces the flag smashers and everyone to Sam.

That's how he's like Sam, like, there's the thing. And like every couple, every like every couple episodes is like, don't forget Torres. And I'm just like, oh, maybe it's him. Maybe it's him. Look, I haven't heard that before. Look, most of my, most of, we did the power broker power ranking last week. And a lot of the people that I had in my power broker power ranking are now,

they're obviously not the power broker. So it's obviously not Isaiah Bradley. It doesn't seem to be Zemo, right? And I don't think that it's Sharon Carter. So I really have no clue. Could it be Madam Hydra? I don't know. I'm not sure.

So, I mean, this is about the time where we would do the Power Broker Power Rankings. I actually don't know who the fucking Power Broker is now. I have no clue. I have no clue. Torres seems to make sense. No, it doesn't make any fucking sense,

actually, but I don't know if it's supposed to make sense at this point. It's the most fun thing that I've heard in a while that it's Stores. I mean, I'm getting jazz behind that. And I'll tell you something else. I don't know if it matters that much anymore. No, it really does. The power broker thing was very huge, but it seems like they've actually depowered the show.

They've depowered the power broker in a way in this show. Oh, wait. Also, dude, dude, it just came to me. You were asking me who I think Contessa is working for, and this goes back to the Power Broker thing. Did you ever read Jonathan Hickman's? He had a Shield series. I never read it.

I've read Hickman on the Fantastic Four, the X-Men, and the Avengers. Yeah, he had a Secret Warriors and a Shield series. What if it's Leviathan? What if she's working with... Oh, interesting. Madame Hydra, Contessa, is working with Leviathan. Powerbroker is one of them,

and that's going to be the new big bad. Because Hydra, I'm like, they're not going to redo Hydra. but they could absolutely do Leviathan. So I think that to me just came to me, wanted to kind of just put it out there. I think Hydra's still around, but they're going to be like, actually Hydra's big brother,

Leviathan, Contessa, she's part of it. And I think Torres might be a part of Leviathan. You never know. Also, she is going to be in the Black Widow movie. Yes. Okay. Which is going to be heavily set in, Russia. So a Leviathan is a Russian organization. So maybe that like she, it could, it could be.

We know what happens when I predict stuff. You know, I got a spotless track record. All right. Now, before we get out of this right here, I have something real quick. Is this is the surprise? No, this is not, this is a surprise. I want to do something right here on the podcast. All right. Oh my God. My boy, Van brought out the Turkish delights. I got the Turkish delights. Here they are right here. the Turkish delights. All right, let's paint the picture for them. Let's paint the picture of like the wrapping what it looks like.

So the Turkish delight, it says, Turkish delight are sort of flavors, and they spell flavors weird like that, with that you. Whenever people spell flavors with the you, it never works out. I don't like those weird spellings. I know people are going to be like,

that's like the way you spell it in the King's English way and stuff that. Nah, it's like flavors, like that. It's all, whatever it's spell like that is going to be, it's going to be janky. What are some of the

assorted flavors we got? Strawberry, peach, melon, tangerine, and blackberry. So these are no artificial sweeteners, glucose-free,

vegan food, and gluten-free is the Turkish delight. Now, I'm going to try the Turkish delight right now and then render my opinion on it.

Which Turkish delight should I try. Let's start with strawberry. Okay, let's start with strawberry turkeys delight. Okay. Here it goes. Ooh, you just took the whole, put the whole thing in your mouth. Didn't even just nibble on it. I mean, it's the Swedish fish. It's a Swedish fish. That's what it tastes like?

Yeah. It's a Swedish fish. Ooh, okay, okay, okay. It's a Swedish fish, and I got to be honest with you. I would not sell my family out for this. I changed my mind from the last park because I'm going to have another one just to make sure. They look like they got baby powder on them. It's the Swedish. Hold on one.

Yeah. What's that flavor? It's a lemon. Lemon. All right. Let's do lemon. So are you amazed that the little girl in the previous episode sold her whole family out for what is basically just Swedish fish? Limit is fucking terrible.

Baby, you want some turkeys of lights? Because I'm about to trash these homes. Oh, oh. Oh, lemon sucks, dog. I'm not going to lie. So there it was, I'll taste the Turkish Delight. By the way, your world's finest chocolate came in the mail, Charles. That's what we like to see.

Wait, maybe look at the Midnight Boys a spinoff tasting episode. I'll be dope. Yeah. All right. Let's do it. I'll be dope. Midnight Boys try different foods. Yeah.

All right. The Midnight Boys are out. I'm going to go get some water to maybe some ginger ale to get the goddamn Turkish Delight taste out of my mouth. And before we leave, man, happy birthday to Oh man, Van. What do you got planned? Not very much. I'm just going to chill and be thankful.

A lot of stuff going on out there, obviously in the news. So I am thankful for a momentary pause to where I can get on here and talk some superhero stuff with you, Charles. And I hope that everybody is listening, stays motivated and engaged to go out and challenge things. but also takes breaks and stuff like that too.

So it's dope to just talk some MCU. Yeah, get some rest, man. I thought you were going to be doing a two-step on the danceware tonight, you know? I'm going to be chilling. I'm going to be chilling. I'm going to be chilling. All right, right, right.

So do you guys, make sure you check in with Mallory on Tuesday. Remember, she's going to do a deeper dive. There's going to be real, real heavy talk over there. And she's also going to answer your mailback questions that you should submit to at Ringervverse on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. Submit those questions, make sure you get those questions to Mallory.

She loves answering you guys as questions. And also, follow us. Follow at Ringiverse on those same social media handles and, you know, talk to us. Let us know what's going on. Let's know your experience with the Turkish is like. We love to hear from me. With that...

Wait, can I do the pew-poo? I never get to do the PewPee. Oh, do the outro. Yeah, do the outro. Yeah. Yo, guys, grab your podcast. Popcorn, grab your chips a hoy. We thank you for tuning in to the Midnight boys. Boom! That's what I'm talking about.

All right, baby, we out of here. One time I saw Anthony Mackey, by the way. I saw Anthony Mackey in Anguilla. And it's a true story. And so I saw Anthony Mackey in Anguilla one time for New Year's Eve, and it was raining. And so it rains a lot down there. and stuff like that, and that's kind of the rainy season. So it was raining.

And everybody else is trying to cover up. And there's literally one dude out there with his shirt off on the dance floor. And I'm like, what is this there? And I look, and he looks at me and he points and he goes, I'm like, oh, that's Anthony Mackin. I went over there. And I dapped up. And he was a super nice guy.

I dapped up a moist Anthony Mackie. Wow. He was shirtless, rain all over him. He was having a great time. Having a great time. Shout out to Anthony Mackey. Shout out to Anthony Mackey.