The Ringer-Verse - 'The Falcon and the Winter Soldier' Mid-season Awards

Episode Date: April 6, 2021

Mallory Rubin is joined by Joanna Robinson of Vanity Fair to talk in depth about the themes and revelations in the third episode of 'The Falcon and the Winter Soldier.' They break down how Zemo has established himself as one of the best villains in the MCU (13:30) and give out their mid-season superlatives (76:05). Then, Mal hops over to the timeline to answer your mailbag questions (96:04). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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See terms at fanduel.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. And welcome into the ringerverse. You're on the Ringer podcast network. I'm Mallory Rubin, co-host of Binge mode. Head of editorial at the Ringer, and it is my absolute joy and pleasure to invite you not only to Madreport, but to join us on this new podcast feed for Marvel and more superhero stories, Star Wars, all things, nerd culture, and fandom. If you're new to the feed, here's a very quick catch-up every Friday.

The Midnight Boys, Van Lathen, and Charles Holmes, will have their instant reaction to the latest Falcon and the Winter Soldier episode. And then I will be with you the following Tuesday to analyze the episode. So it's themes, dive into the newest theories, answer your mailback questions and more. Bonus Street for you this week, Van and Charles are breaking down the new Loki and Black Widow Trailers for you, so be sure to check that out as well. And there's going to be more to come. So stay tuned. How can you stay tuned do you want to know? You can do that by following us on Twitter and Instagram at Ring Reverse, joining the Ring Reverse Facebook group, and of course following the pod on Spotify, wherever you get your podcast. Now, before we dive into today's episode,

your friendly neighborhood spoiler warning. Today's podcast features plot details from the Falcon and the Winter Soldier's third episode, Powerbroker, as well as spoilers from the entire MCU run to date, comics canon, all of it, you've been warned. Later today, I'm going to head to the timeline with Jomey to answer your mailback questions.

But before that, I have a special guest joining me today to chat about Zimo and Sharon returns and Powerbroker to hand out some mid-season awards, which I'm looking forward to, because amazingly, we're halfway through the Falcon Winter Soldier run already. Who is that guest?

Well, you can read her work in Vanity Fair and on Vanity Fair.com. You can listen to her Marvel analysis and interviews every single week on Vanity Fair is still watching the Falcon and the Winter Soldier podcast. You can get hyped, as I am, for her upcoming book, Co-O-O-Whoring, authored with Dave Gonzalez on the complete history of Marvel Studios, it is the one and the only Vanity Fair senior writer, my fellow Jora Mormont, Obi-1 Canobi and fuck you Bards enthusiasts, Joanna Robinson. Joanna, welcome.

Hello. Oh, it's so great to have you here. I'm delighted. I'm thrilled beyond belief to be here. I can't even tell you, Mallory. It's so funny. I'm so glad you ended that intro with mention of our shared, like, fictional husbands. Yes, we have a lot of them.

Every time that I think I have some sort of unique crush on someone, in comes Mallory Rubin with the exact same identical crush. So here we go. You know what? It's bucket time. We share a lot of passions. Some of them are stories. Some of them are fictional universes, and some of them are bearded gentlemen.

With an ache in their heart. You know what I mean? That's right. Love a redemption arc around here, you know? Love it. Give me Sawyer, give me death. Here we go. Oh, my God.

Sawyer. You know what? I was going to mention this later, but I'll just do it right now because you mentioned Sawyer. Zemo calling Bucky James. I can't help but think of Juliet calling Sawyer James.

Though, of course, it's like the noxious inverse of that, right? where Juliet really wanted to help Sawyer remember who he was and could be. And Zemo is, of course, trying to control Bucky as his pawn. But still, it made me think of you. Yeah, no, it also, it reminded me, it's funny, it reminded me of a different lost pairing, which is John Locke also used to call Sawyer James. And it's just sort of like a paternalistic kind of thing.

It's just like a little different, you know what I mean, but trying to relate to him on that level. I have noticed that even though we pushed back the first time, Sam said it. He let Sam call him Buck now. So, you know. We were fully in the buck zone. We're in the buck zone.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Here we are. From the jump here. Some big picture thoughts for the ringer verse listeners. How are you enjoying the season to date? And what were your thoughts on this episode, Powerbroker, in particular? I think it's a tough act to follow. Wanda Vision's a tough act to follow.

And I think I knew all along that Falcon Winter Soldier was going to be just like a little bit more punchy. action-heavy, which is not necessarily like the thing that I respond to most in the Marvel universe, right? Right. So I'm enjoying a lot of it. Yes, you have thoughts on the fast running. There's a lot of running, man. And sometimes it looks really good and sometimes it doesn't.

But yeah, I think I'm excited to see them hopefully delve even deeper into some of the really interesting threads that they picked up in terms of like the Isaiah Bradley character and all that sort of stuff. I'm still holding out hope that we get sort of like a big, meaty flashback for that character.

And if we do, I think that'll, like, make this series bump up a bit more in my estimation. But as is right now, and I was just,

actually, before I hopped on here with you, I was just talking to Marvel producer, Nate Moore, who worked on Winter Soldiers, Civil War, Black Panther,

and this, he's the producer on this project. And he was saying that episode five is when a lot of, disparate threads are really going to feel like they coalesce. And head writer Malcolm Spellman has also sort of teased episode five

is the episode where he feels like everything comes together and it all makes sense. So I am reserving like full judgment until at least episode five, if not the end, to see how it all hangs together. Is that an answer, Mallory? It absolutely is an answer. Not only is it an answer, it's an illuminating one that sparks a follow-up

because that makes me think of so much of the commentary in the run-up to the season was this idea, whether it was from the show-running team, the actors of Fige of the four- or five-hour movie, right? And that comment really aligns because that would, episode five would be akin to heading into the final act of the film where everything, as a viewer of a movie,

you would expect to coalesce and come together. That makes me wonder specifically about the shield. I don't know why I feel the compulsion to do this, but not only do I obsessively, go frame by frame in trailers before experiencing a new show or movie for the first time. Then I keep returning to the trailers to track, okay, well, what have we seen? What haven't we seen? And of course, with Marvel or, you know, really any of these big fantastical universe IP creators,

you can sort of expect that some of what you see in the trailer might not actually make it into the final cut might be there to deceive or mislead you in the first place. I don't think that the myriad shots of Sam and Sam and Bucky with the Shield fall into that category. That feels like something that is definitely going to happen. It makes up the bulk, actually, of what we have not yet seen in the show from what is in the trailer. So now I'm expecting based on that for the Shield action, the training montage, to come

in episode five. Well, and bless the Redditors, because often they will put together those videos for me, for me specifically, no, for the world. World. Sick flex. Love it. All the trailer footage we haven't seen yet. You know what I mean?

And they'll do a super cut and I'll be like, aha, we still have to go here. Yeah, I do the same thing. I have a quick question for you about this. I don't know how friendly you are to tangents. But my quick question is this. Love them.

Do you think someone who hasn't had a good old shot of the Super Soldier Serum should be able to fling and catch this shield with ease? You met Steve. our wonderful producer a few moments ago. This has been on Steve's mind. He's been bringing it up a lot in ringer-vers planning meetings.

The physics of the shield, the way the shield moves, who should be able to throw it? Now, I have a couple thoughts, one of which is, I remain convinced, stubbornly so that this shield is from an alternate dimension and is not the original timeline shield. It looks different.

It clearly looks different, right? the indentations in the silver part of the vibranium specifically. And also just based on everything we know about the timeline, preserving the timeline, there is just no way to wrap your head around that being the original timeline shield, which was destroyed by Thanos. And Steve wouldn't have removed it from earlier in the timeline while he was specifically on a mission to restore the timeline. That just wouldn't have happened.

So he's bringing this from the alt-dimension paradise he's in where he spends all his I'm fucking and dancing with Peggy, and I'm delighted for him. Truly delighted for him. We should all be so lucky. Does that same song play every time they dance? Every time? Absolutely. Just that one song.

Okay. You can predict their Spotify wrapped before the year. It has been a long, long time, if you know what I mean, Mallory. So, yeah. Sure has. Presumably the shield behaves in the same way, even if it's a different shield. But maybe it doesn't. Maybe it obeys different laws.

The other thing is, we know canonically that the shield, even though it is, of course, made of vibranium, the strongest metal on Earth, incredibly resilient. It's really light. Like, that's part of the draw of it is that you can basically hurl it around like a frisbee, whether or not I would think you had super strength. So I think that I can see how Sam would be able to use the shield. And I think it would actually be nice thematically if somebody who doesn't have the serum is ultimately able, if Sam decides that's what he wants, of course,

which is one of the three lines of the season, to use the shield. A lot of theories in the last couple of weeks, though, about whether Sam might take the serum. I personally don't see that. No, I don't think he would. I think John Walker is definitely going to juice, but I don't think that Sam's going to juice.

He can't wait. He's like, get it in my arm. Do you know who I am? But I guess, I mean, I can definitely, I can hang with you on this as an alternate shield. I just think the fact that both John and Sam are using it in this show, kind of diminished, this is something that a listener said to me and I said on my other podcast,

but I think it does diminish that moment in Winter Soldier when Bucky grabs the shields like out of midair. And Steve's like, oh, you know, and the soundtrack is doing it. the Winter Soldier scream and Steve's like, oh, dang, who is this? And then also the moment in Civil War where they're bouncing the shield back and forth to each other. And it's like the two of them can use the shield in this way. So it kind of diminishes that for me.

You know, that being said, if it's an alternative shield, if we see Sam open it up at some point, like the way that he opened up Red Wing and, like, tinkers with it. Because, like, don't those little, like, indentations look like they might be panels that could, like, lift up or something like that? So, like, maybe he can tinker with it somehow. I don't know. Circuit board inside? I don't know why else we would see that Sam is like... If this somehow results in finding out that Thunderbolt Ross has been spying on everyone the entire time, I'm going to be very unhappy.

Well, never underestimate him. So, anyway, never. Sorry, that was a shield tangent, but there you go. No, we welcome tangents here. Love it. And keep them coming, please. This is a conversation among friends and fellow Marvel enthusiasts. So, all right.

Never a bad time for a tangent. I'll say I enjoy this. the episode quite a bit. Obviously, the John Wick vibes were not just something that people sensed. They were quite literal because Derek Kolstad, the creator of the John Wick universe was a writer of this episode. I dug it. I really liked getting to Magrupor. I have been anticipating Zemo's return to the MCU.

Love Zeeam. From the moment he dunked on Everett Ross from inside of his confinement gauge. Zemo is, of course, how we got to Madreport. Rock in the astounding outerwear. Incredible. Amazing stuff. Flying private. Ready to give the rotting, rancid food to an unsuspecting salmon bucky.

He's a baron. Come on. He sure is. I want to just spend a few minutes here. talking about Zemo's return. And before we get into this episode specifically in the many delights that he provided, Zemo is one of the best and most compelling villains in the MCU

and managed to achieve that standing despite only being in one film before this show, which is notable because his place more broadly in the Marvel villain continuum. Because one of the through lines of conversation across the first three phases of the MCU is the nominal quote unquote Marvel villain problem

and not to immediately jump into like strawman descriptions or anything of that nature but I think it's fair to say that when people talk about the Marvel villain problem one of the things that people cite often is that many of the lesser villains the ones who stick with us less well

and are less lasting presences in our hearts and minds because they are less lasting presence is in the story, don't stick around, right? They're one and done's. So the rarity of a villain returning in the MCU is something notable. And I think for me at least, really sparked a lot of my excitement heading into the Falcon and the Winter Soldier because I was so excited for Zemo specifically to return. Was that something that was appealing to you to, either with Zemo in particular or more broadly with the idea of a villain resurfacing and reentering the fray? Yeah, I mean, I guess the only other

villains, we could apply that to, I mean, Thanos gets a multi-parter, right? That's Thanos and Loki are around for quite some time. And then Loki, like, every time he returns, he's like a little less of a villain, right? So that's more about, you know, character- My darling, Loki. My darling, Loki.

I love it. Love it. But something that Marvel has started recently, doing recently, is putting their villains on ice in this way. That's how I was describing the way that they dealt with Agatha Agnes at the end of Wanda Vision, is they put her on ice so they can pluck her back out when they need her. And to be clear, not literally in cryo like Bucky was. Not Bucky Ice, but like with Hydra as the Winter Soldier or embedded into the deep ice of the globe as Steve was inside of the Valkyrie.

But in terms of storytelling. Open Appal-S on these characters and they can come back and grab them when they need them. And one big theory behind that, you know, I'm thinking of like a ghost in Ant Man in the Wasp and stuff like that. And one big theory behind that is that just as we can see them building towards a Young Avengers team, they're also possibly building towards a Thunderbolt team, which means they could pluck these villains that we've met before and put them all on like a big super team. And in the comics, of course, Zemo is like the founder of the Thunderbolts. And so you can just sort of start to think about those villains. And so, yeah, so Zemo, Zemo is a villain that I loved in Civil War.

And it's so interesting because he makes a huge impression. Daniel Brul is just a great performer, I think. But, like, he makes such a huge impression with very little screen time, actually, because of the magnitude of what he accomplishes, right? The fact that he outsmarts the smartest people in the world, the fact that he manipulates their emotions to that point. And it's one of the reasons why I loved his entry here. is that he is just immediately back on that manipulation thing. And his thing is not like,

I've built a super weapon that's going to blow you out of the sky, and his thing is also not like, I want to conquer the earth. It's, I want personal, emotional vengeance for this wrong that was done to me, and I will mess with your mind until I get it. The lector way in which he approaches Bucky and immediately starts to trigger him, and even though he doesn't trigger him, he then pivots to like, oh, I knew it wouldn't work.

I just want you to know that I know that there's something still inside of you. And I'm going to be working on that. And so I think, you know, something, a reaction that some people have had is like, why is Zemo like all of a sudden sort of comic relief in this episode? Obviously, like, I think the first meme of Falcon and the Winter Soldier is Zemo dancing in the club, right? Great stuff. I love it. I think it's to have the audience put their guard down and they're not watching Zimo as close as they need to be. but I am watching Zimo,

and I know that he noticed the name of Bucky's, you know, Japanese lunch friend, and I know that he noticed them saying the word Isaiah on the plane, and so I've got my eye on Zemo, you know what I mean? You have to wonder, did he see his own name on Bucke's List of Amends, which we know is there? Yeah. So, like, I just think that he has to,

that there's a method to the way in which they're making him fun Zemo in this episode. It's not just like Jason Stathes. joins the casta Fast and Furious and we forget what he did to Han. It's, it's, you know, trying to lull you into accepting him as the, like, Joe Pesci of this trio when something else is brewing, you know. Yeah. I mean, we saw it here, too. He killed the, you know, he killed the, you know, scientist.

Yeah, Nagel. Couldn't, couldn't. And even that moment, to your point about the various lenses through which we should be watching his activities. When he's hunting for that gun inside of the lab, what else is he doing? Like, what else is he looking at? What else is he reading? What else is he trying to deduce? What clues is he hunting for? Everything that he's doing, everything he says, everything he doesn't say, every expression he makes with his face. And I think you're exactly right. And I agree completely because even if you think back to his role in Civil War, fewer dance moves, less fashion forward, fewer zingers, but the consistent thing, in addition to his stated intention to rid the world of superheroes, is that he was always playing apart, always playing a part. There was always a long con.

We love a long con because we love Sawyer. Always a long con and always a ruse. And he even says in this episode, stay in character, the whole bar turns on us. Like, that's his thing. Stay in character. You know, how many times did we see him stay in character in Civil War while framing Bucky, while impersonating the psychiatrist, even inside of the joint counterterrorism task force building in Berlin?

Staying in character is his whole thing. So maybe that's what he's doing. with Sam and Bucky and Sharon as well here, you know, even the moment of his return when he flees and then comes back, the walk atop the cargo containers, puts on the mask and shoots, you think, okay, well, he has escaped, right? He has made his escape. And it's this kind of little mini shock and jolt when he pulls up in the car to get them and to rescue them. But that doesn't mean he's actually on their side. It just means it's part of the long con as part of the role in game he needs to play. Recall Zemo's iconic quote from Civil War. I have experience and patience.

A man can do anything if he has those. He'll be patient here too. Easier to align with them while they're working toward finding the rest of the serum that Nagle mentioned Carly and the Flag Smashers stole that we know Carly has. Yeah. And then deal with them after he has and presumably has destroyed the serum, then worry about them now. So I'm with you for sure. Seymour's great. Yeah.

He'll be wanting to track down that serum. And then also, I believe, destroy the source, which is Isaiah, right? Because that's what Nagel says is that he developed the serum off of Isaiah's blood. So that's what's made me really worried for Isaiah is that Zemo has a vested. interest in eliminating him. That would be terrible. And it is worth keeping in mind with Zemo that this is always the counterweight to how compelling he is as a character and how interesting he is to watch is that he does terrible things. He bombed the UN. He killed King Tachaca. These are not things that we should ever lose sight of. And of course, the episode itself does not allow us to lose sight of that

because of the incredible final scene after Bucky spots the Kimoyo beads and makes his way to Ayo, which we'll get to a little bit later. Where did he actually rank for you among your favorite Marvel villains? Is he top five? Is he top three?

Is he top ten? You don't have to do a list. You can do a list. I made a list. Let's have it. I made a list in preparation for this. All right, here's my top five. Okay.

I'm going to start at the bottom and work my way up to number one. Perfect. At the bottom, I have the Winter Soldier because it's tough. He's not really a villain, but like he's an antagonist figure in that. I love Bucky, but like I just don't think of the Winter Soldier as like actually the villain of that. It's pain is actually the villain of that film. So he's more of a henchman.

Anyway, so number five, Winter Soldier. Number four, Zemo. Number three, Thanos, because that was just like, it would have been so easy for Thanos to be too ridiculous for us to contemplate. It's a miracle that they pulled Thanos off. A miracle. He looks like a Muppet and is still terrifying. It's a miracle. Especially when you look at those early designs where he pops up in earlier movies

and they hadn't quite figured it out yet. And it would have been like, oh boy, you know. Number two, Loki, our guy. And then number one, killmonger. Because, like, villain with a point, like, the king of that is killmonger, I think. And Malcolm Spellman did say when he was on our podcast that, they had printed out the killmonger speech and put it up in the writer's room as their motivator for like villain with a point villain with a worldview that you can relate to,

but a method that feels a little extreme, a little extreme, very extreme sometimes. So, yeah. We have four of the same top five. Okay. All right. What do you got? The only difference is I have vulture on my list instead of Bucky, only because frankly, I didn't even consider Bucky eligible, you know?

Though I think you're right that you definitely can consider him eligible, but I did not. He's certainly a favorite of mine, as you know. If you were to knock Bucky off the list and say, I couldn't have him, I would put Vulture on the list. Also, do you think Vulture and Zemo shopped at the same jacket store for their fur collar coats? Yes, and I think they also were joined by Mark Strachon. Dr. Savannah from Shazam, who has the exact same jacket on as well. Great stuff. I absolutely love it. Get yourself a fur collar. Yeah. The villain label in general, I think, can often feel wrong when we're talking about these characters, especially the ones

who are more effective and who do fall into that has a point category because they're often motivated by, driven by something that is many of the viewers probably agree with. And as is so often the case in strong fantasy stories that differentiators, we've talked about many times before, is intention and method, how they go about it. Yeah. But yeah, Loki's my number one, just to state that for the record. I mean, hard to beat. And we just got that new Loki trailer today as we're recording it.

Such a joy. There's a cat in the trailer, Joanna. The promise. What more could we want? Nothing else. A cat in a Loki trailer? It's time for an early retirement. I absolutely cannot wait.

We'll have to have you back to talk about Loki and Mia. When we get to June 11th. I'm so excited for that one. I'm so excited for that one. No, but can I just say one more thing about Zemo, even though we've sort of progressed past it? But like, no, we have a lot more Zemo to talk about. Keep it coming.

Let's go. The way he's always playing a role, like I do think of that, especially in Civil War, when he's, like, charming the room service in the hotel. Bacon and black coffee. Yeah. And he's just champions. Ousing charm as he like talks to her and stuff like that.

And then also the moment when he comes face to face with Steve again at the end. And he's like, points out the flaw in his eye. Green in your eye. And you're just sort of like, Zimo, you, like, he knows exactly how to put someone on their back foot. You know what I mean? Just sort of like say the thing that's just going to like, throw them for a loop and that's when he like slips in and you know puts the knife in so i'm just

i'm a big zima fan i'm so thrilled he's here i thought about that eyeball comment and moment in this episode actually because he has he has a lot of great memorable lines in this episode but his main sort of speechifying moment is on the plane when he says to them you must have really looked up to steve but i realized something when i met him the danger with people like him america super Super soldiers is that we put them on pedestals. Sam says, watch your step, Zemo. And then Zemo continues unfaced and says they become symbols, icons, and then we start to forget about their flaws. So this idea of the flaw that is hiding beneath the symbol, the iconography, the thing that has led the adoring masses to put somebody worthy or unworthy. And of course, that is so often a matter of

perspective up on that pedestal is one of, it's his North Star. You know, it's one of his guiding, principles, and I think it was important that the episode reminded us of that before he started talking about the Red Skull and all these other, you know, again, Zemo, murderer, terrorists, to be clear. But helpful reminders of how this could go really wrong across history. And there's also with him always, like, levels to what he's saying, right? Because there's that reading of it. And then there's also this, like, how can I best dismiss? Like, he's doing, like, a mini civil war here, right? He's like, the best way to come at Sam and Bucky, they're Bond is Steve. And if he comes at Sam and Bucky through Steve, which is the one thing,

really. Chip away at the glue that holds them together. You know, can he just sort of like fracture them apart and, you know, that will ultimately help his case? Can I ask you a logistical question about how he made his way back into the story? Yes. Why? Why isn't he on the raft? Why? Why is he not at one of Marvel's super prisons? Confused by that. Is it just because he doesn't have powers because that would be really misunderer that would really be underestimating him, I think. It would be a mistake. But that might be like Zima's whole thing is like maybe in his trial, presumably he had a trial. I don't know. He like convinces that he plays the part of the, you know, Hubble-Sakovian broken father who just, you know, was doing what he could do to survive.

Wait, so then, okay, related to that and then take this all together, why do you think he didn't try to break out of jail before? Because my husband was very hung up on this, watching the episode. It was just like, it seems really easy. Obviously, you know, Bucky gets him the key and everything and sparks the horrendous fight by inciting prisoners to try to kill each other, which is one of the many mistakes that Bucky makes in this episode. But it seemed like Zemo could have done this at any point if he wanted to. Now, I have an answer for why I think he didn't, but I'm curious what yours is.

Well, this is one of those moments where, like, I like an efficient heist, and I like that Zima was, like, out before the opening credits, basically. that it was just sort of like said and done, a hypothetical said and done. I do like that. But I have questions about like, I need one more step of how that key card got in the book to ZMO. The book sequence was confusing.

So he mentions he's reading Machiavelli, which is, yeah. What's that book you're reading? Right. And like, the way that Bucky says it sort of implies that like, Bucky's the one that put the key card there. And he was just sort of like signaling like, hey, maybe it's like a closer look at your book. you know, sort of thing.

But I've seen a lot of viewers who think that Zemo had that key card the whole time and was just sort of sitting on it. And they cite his sort of sleight of hand, like that he lifted Bucky's notebook. Again, something that I feel like we should have seen. Has he been studying at online close-up magic university? Is that what take away? Is that the real unifying thread across the MCU? There are worse ways to spend your time, you know what I mean?

You think he and Randall Park had the same class? Definitely possible, yeah. So the answer, the answer, like, if we think that Zamo had the key card already, which some people do, like, let's say you think that, and you're like, why didn't he break out earlier, since he seemed to know the entire lay of the land once he was out of his cell, maybe the answer is he needed someone to cause at least a distraction. So that's, you know, the role that Bucky plays. But, like, also, I don't think you can watch that scene and, you know,

not think that, and think that Bucky had nothing to do with the key card because he, you know, draws attention to the book. So it's a little bit of a messy heist, I have to say, a messy prison break. It's no Mission Impossible Ghost Protocol. I'll tell you that much right now. Oh, God. Certainly not. And I mean, it's a shame because we know that Zimo is a huge fan of facial prosthetics and masks are a huge part of the Mission Impossible franchise. So that would have, that would have come together nicely. As you know, all he needed to do. do was put on an unmarked baseball cap to a masquerade as any any one of the adventures. One of my favorite underrated MC moments is when Scott and Hank have the conversation about

how the caps are not an effective disguise in the loss. I was always so grateful for that sequence. When my husband Adam brought this up and was hung up on it, my read on this was just, okay, a lot of time has passed, right? Talking seven. eight-ish years. We tack on the six months post-blip here from when Zemo was taken into custody. But if we think about where we left him, he tried to kill himself before Tachala stopped him.

He did not, as you mentioned already, want to gain power, or at least at that point in his arc, want to pursue and find a way to live a new type of life. if he wanted to stop the Avengers, and he did. You know, if you think about again that moment with Ross, what does he say when Ross is, oh, it must feel so awful this year, elaborate plan and fail?

And he's like, did it? So he's content to sit there and reflect on his victory. And that might have been enough for him until this moment with Bucky, this conversation where he learns that there's more serum out there and it animates him anew because. As he says in this episode, quite a harrowing moment, he has no intention to leave his work unfinished. So just in terms of the vibes,

the Zemo vibes that you mentioned already. Yeah. I want to ask you if you think that the MCU is deliberately moving Zemo back toward something closer to his traditional comics rendering. because it's not only the signature purple mask from the comics that, of course, makes its appearance here. It's not just the amazing exchange with Sam. So all this time you've been rich. And he says, I'm a Baron Sam.

My family was royalty until your friends destroyed my country. Baron Zemo, of course, from the comics. But it gets back to what you mentioned earlier, too, about the idea of the Thunderbolts, maybe the Masters of Evil, any of these groups. that Zemo is associated with in the comics, it feels like that would be a necessary step or two to take to move toward some sort of cohesive rendering of comic Zemo and MCU Zemo,

which actually quite different. No, that's a great point. I hadn't thought about it beyond the mask. It's funny because when I was doing my pre-season write-up, I'd put Baron Zemo into my write-up, and then I was going to change it to just, you know, his Christian name. And then I looked up how he was listed according to the show,

and they were calling him Baron Zemo. So I was like, well, okay, I guess they're sticking with that. So I was glad to see there was like an in-universe reason why they were calling him Barron Zemo for the show. I'm suspicious of him. I'm worried that he's going to try something with Isaiah, all this sort of stuff. But if he doesn't, and they're trying to move him more

into like a Loki zone or something like that, I think that this is an interesting way to do it. And I also do think that, like, now that I've been thinking a lot about the Disney Plus shows and how they more than the movies, I think, are going to be tools that Marvel uses to sell comics. Because I know a lot of people, like, if you go see a Marvel movie, you go and you see it and you've seen it. But if you're engaging in the week by week watching of a TV show and you're trying to figure out what's going on and you're looking at clues. Yeah. People, I've heard of a lot of people, you know, they keep asking me.

for comic recommendations. I'm sure people writing into you do the same. And it's just sort of like, you know, so people are picking up truth, red, white, and black, the Isaiah Bradley comic. And people were picking up

a lot of WandaVision comics, Wanda comics, or Vision comics, you know, looking for clues and hints about where we might be going. And so, to that end,

and, you know, Kevin Feige, only fairly recently has been become in charge of the comic's arm of things, you know what I mean?

So I think, for a long time, they weren't that worried about the movies aligning with the comic books directly. But to your point, now they might be interested in making, like, moving back towards. So it's a cohesive company line. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. I think that's really interesting. I personally am excited by that.

I love that because the idea of all of that, you know, connective tissue. And, again, it raises what is, I think, an increasingly. prevalent question from people who feel a little, maybe, intimidated by the sheer volume of content that you're going to have to keep up with. And, okay, will I be able to just go see a movie if I haven't watched every Disney Plus show? Will I be able to just watch a Disney Plus show at home if I haven't seen every movie? And then if you continue to introduce these other layers. But from my perspective, at least, and, you know, certainly understand that mileage may vary on this.

And everybody has their own relationship to the, the stories and how much time people want to spend in them or how deeply you want to fall into the world. But that's one of the things I find most exciting about it and rewarding about it, is being able to fall as deep as you want into any little nook, any little corner of a character or a moment in time or an aspect of the world that sparks some part of your imagination or touches you in some way. And every single thing that happens, you could say, well, let me go revisit or explore for the first time X number of things. I mean, Madrepoor in this episode alone is, you know, a great example that has sparked

plenty of X-Men-centric theorizing. Well, and you and I are very similar in that we, like, really like, you know, reading the book and then watching the thing and then thinking a lot about the adaptive changes that were made and something that. Something that makes a successful adaptation, I think we both agree, is that you don't have to do that in order to enjoy it. It's a bonus. It's there for you if you want it, but you don't need it.

Exactly. And it makes me really happy that a bunch of people are reading House of M or The Vision or, you know, like all these various things around Wanda Vision. And, you know, if someone wants to like scurry off and read the Powerbroker comics or the John Walker intro comics or all that sort of stuff, do you know who I am? Have you read my comics? But like, you know, something that Marvel will continue to do that you mentioned is they always want to shove those. stories through the lens of an existent genre, existent premise. That's Kevin Feigey's whole thing, right? So, like, they're giving us the, like, lethal weapon, rush hour, 48 hours, sort of buddy cop kind of vibe with Sam and Bucky, but they're pushing these other comic book stories through that sort of, we say through the lens, but I always think of it as like a sieve, sort of like pushing it through that. And that's what, that's where the Marvel magic happens. It's like you're describing

the showstopper challenge and the Great British Bake-off. Talking about Sims and now I'm hungry. Mallory, build me a gingerbread structure of your favorite childhood memory. Go. You have three hours. It's delicious.

That is gorgeous. Scrummy. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows Winter is the MVP and make it a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer, unless you hit the beach or go camping, then you'd want a cargo liner, or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips.

Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. Okay, so before we move on to Sharon and the PowerBer, a couple more minutes on Zemo here, specifically, where's it going? What is his plan? What is his endgame? And how worried should we be about Sam and Bucky? You mentioned Isaiah. How worried should we be about the people who might be in Zemo's way? I will say as a primer that I am increasingly concerned about Bucky making it out of this season alive. Oh, interesting. I'm not formally.

saying that's a prediction of mine, because it's hard to imagine him not being in the MCU moving forward. But I am very worried, and I think that particularly the way that Zemo in this episode said I ended the Winter Soldier program once before, I have no intention to leave my work unfinished. Leaving Bucky, the crown jewel of the Winter Soldier program alive,

is definitionally Zemo leaving his work unfinished. And so I am concerned. How about you? I guess it depends what we think the Thunderbolts could be. Because if we think the Thunderbolts could be... So you're all in on the Thunderbolts. You think this is happening. Do you think that's going to happen this season?

No, I think it's just... It's like Young Avengers, I think they're just dropping seeds that will bear fruit later on. And so in order for that to happen, I think Zemo has to not kill one of the most treasured characters in all the MCU. Like, if he does that...

If Zemo does that, we don't want to watch Zemo anymore, right? Like, if Zimo kills Bucky... like Sam asked Gil ZMO or something like that. I am not worried about them. But now maybe I'm more worried about Bucky now than I was first before he started talking. And certainly like when we see Bucky in therapy and, you know, and his therapist says like, you're free and he's like, to do what?

Like he has no purpose. So I think actually more his arc is to find purpose. And I increasingly think that's going to have something to do with Wakanda. Because the frequent mention of the White Wolf thing the fact that there's going to be like a Wakanda TV show, the fact that you could put Bucky in Black Panther 2 if you wanted to, not that they need a white character in any of those things,

but that that's a place where he felt peace is what he says. You know what he means? So you could put Bucky over there. A theory that I've heard that I really like is that the show is called Falcon and the Winter Soldier because by the end of this, neither of them will be that name, right? That Sam will no longer be Falcon,

it'll be Captain America, and then maybe Bucky will be White Wolf instead of Winter Soldier in our minds. So, yeah, I think it would be too devastating for Bucky to be still struggling with his, like, PTSD and his, like, all of this sort of stuff. And then to die, I think that would be a real rough. Then again, I never thought I'd see such a massive gunfight in a Disney Plus show. So, you know, who knows? Who knows what they're up for? I agree with all of that.

I think certainly shedding those monikers and evolve. to the next phase of their not only existences, but partners or a team or whatever they choose, but as individuals as people who have a better sense of who they are and what they want to do and how they want to live their lives definitely feels like where the show is heading. And I think the real villain that's at the heart of the show, it's ideas, it's certain ideas, right?

It's the systemic failings, racism, the way that, and I think the part of, to your point about Bucky, the role that trauma has played in his arc and his personal journey of working through that and working to understand it, I think that having him move forward in his life and finding the version of, you know, Dr. Rainer, terrible therapist, made fun of him when he said he wanted peace and said it was bullshit. But whatever that actually is for him, whatever, you know, just like Sam and Steve had that lovely exchange. engine winter soldier, what makes you happy? I don't know. Bucky has to find that out for himself, too.

Just as Sam, when he does get the shield back in, presumably episode five, whatever it happens, they each have their own journey and their own road forward. I think that Zemo will attempt to disrupt that. I don't think he will succeed at the expense of either of those characters moving out of the season and moving forward into the MCU that I agree with you that that would just frankly be bizarre as a as a choice.

But I think he will try. I think that, you know, it felt notable to me that when Sharon made her speech about the hypocrisy of heroism, Zimo made sure to observe that Sam knows that, that he already sees that about Sam, right? So he's working and the absolute exhilaration that he took for. from controlling Bucky, from the moment that he comes out of the shadows in the cell and starts to say the words,

to telling him that he's going to have to be somebody in Madrippor that he claims is gone, to the actual moments of deploying Bucky in the bar. Because what is actually scarier to Bucky? The idea that something is still there inside of him, that he could become the Winter Soldier again, or that absent the ability of the code words or hydro brainwashing or whatever else

to actually take over his mind and put him into that trance where he becomes a weapon, a tool for somebody else to deploy, that he could still do those things. That's probably what's actually more unmooring for him and more unsettling because it forces him to think about the choices that he is making right now.

Absolutely. I mean, I felt sick to my stomach. As much as I love Winter Soldier's like scenes, as much as I love when the Winter Soldier scream comes on the soundtrack, you know what I mean? It made me ill watching Bucky like, you know, backslide into that. It made me so sad. And yeah, I think it would be so scary for him to find that like even if he's completely successfully deprogrammed, that he still has that killer in him.

And we've seen that story before in various things. But it's just sort of like, you know, it's like, it's like Zemo made him take another hit of a drug that he's trying to be clean of, you know what I mean? And it's disturbing and all the while being entertaining. We know also, this is a clue from a trailer. So if you don't like hearing that stuff, fast forward 30 seconds. But, you know, we see in the trailer that Zemo is standing in front of what we can deduce, I think is the Sokovia Memorial, that he references in this episode when he says,

you know, I don't suppose any of you bothered visiting the memorial, of course not. Would you now, you know, does anyone take the time to say, hey, like the two of us, we actually were not in. Sikovia? No, no one bothers saying that. But it seems like he's going to get there. I have a hard time imagining that the three of them just go as pals. But maybe it all just seems to point towards Zemo eventually making his escape. I can see that being the last shot of Zemo of the season. Yeah, that would be great. You know, it's like the Machiavelli moment. almost felt too fitting and too perfect, but it's also not an accident, right? Like, it primes you as a viewer. You're not, oh, well, what's he reading? Is you reading the prince? Is you reading

the art of four? Is you reading the discourse of Livy? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Should Bucky and Zemo form a book club after Bucky's Hobbit mentioned last episode? Yes, absolutely, yes. You're supposed to remember that Zemo is a character who believes that the end justifies the means and thinks often about power and the dynamic at play, not only in society, but in any. any group or among any people who would deign to rule. And so, you know, there are a lot of moments in the episode where Sam and Bucky remind each other and us that they know this is not a person they can trust. But they still get on his plane. They still let him drive the car. Like, they're not watching him as closely as they need to be. And that's, you know,

this is exactly right. That's exactly what I was just going to say. Like, Yeah. But, Bucky saying, you know, to Sam, he can't go into the prison with him because he's an Avenger. They don't, Zemo doesn't like Avengers. Sam saying to Bucky in the garage with that lovely collection of classic cars, you know, Zeno's going to mess with our minds, especially yours. They think that they have gotten Zimo, Bucky thinks at least, that they have gotten Zemo to participate in the, their plan. But from the moment he pulls his accessories out of the car, he's in charge. He's calling

the shots. Like you said, they're on his plane. They go to his hideout in Latvia. He's the one who has the Selby connection and leads them to Madrepoor. They're in his power. And they're not thinking about it that way. And that specifically is the thing that scares me. But saying the word power, Makes me think of the power broker. Let's do it. We're going to spend a few minutes theorizing because two of the main theories among the fandom

in the wake of this episode, and there are a lot of who could be the power broker theories still, including Thunderbolt Ross, of course. Two of the main ones are Zemo and Sharon Carter. So we want to talk about both of those for a couple minutes, the evidence to support the claim,

the reasons that we think that does not make sense. But before we do that, overall thoughts on Sharon's return to the MCU. Were you excited for Sharon to be back in your life? I like Sharon a lot because I like The Winter Soldier a lot. So anyone who's in that movie is forever, like, has a place in my heart. I know that Sharon isn't actually super popular with, at least that depiction of Sharon,

isn't super popular with Marvel fans. So I was really gratified to see a lot of people liked her return. They like this new mode of Sharon that she seems more active, more interesting. I'm a big fan of Canada's sweetheart, Emily Van Camp. And I thought her fight in like the among the shipping containers is one of the coolest things we've seen in all of the TV shows we've seen so far from Disney Marvel. Can I just say on that point very quickly? I've seen a lot of people on Twitter speculating about whether Sharon might be dosed up on the serum. First of all, I will just say.

the physics of that fight do not seem like a serum fight to me. That's what I said. I said the same thing. I was like she would have sent someone flying if she were running super serum. Yeah. But more generally. Yeah. Let's give Sharon some fucking credit here.

She is a highly trained agent of shield and a highly trained CIA operative. Just because she's not a part of either organization anymore. So we think. So we assume. Yep. I have no trouble believing that she would absolutely annihilate the bounty hunters of Madrepoor, who, again, John Wick vibes presumably just spilled out of the Madreport Continental. I'm looking forward to Ian McShane making an appearance at some point here soon.

Right around the next shipping container corner. Exactly. It was cool to see Sharon kick ass, to see her down. and get that shine. I did really, really love that as well because, you know, we get some Sharon, Agent 13 action and Winter Soldiers, you noted also my favorite Marvel movie. One more thing we have in common. And we, as we're reminded many times in this episode of TV, we spent some time with Sharon

in Civil War, but that's it. You know, we see her face in the endgame sequence of the blipped, so we know she blipped, but I think she's listed as missing, I think. I think that's an interesting distinction because it's possible she wasn't bliped, right? So I'm glad she brought this up because I was going to ask you if you think there's something there that might surface over the course of this show because, you know, like Scott Lang's face is there and we know he didn't blip. So there's not necessarily clarity on every single person. We think Sharon blipped, but yeah, who knows, right? I kind of think she didn't because I think it would take her a while to build up the status that she's built up in Matapour.

So I think she didn't blip for one reason or another. was underground, whether she's still working with CIA or whether she's the power broker. The, and I'm trying to think of, like, do you think people would have had as much of an issue with that shipping container fight if it had been Natasha instead of Sharon? Like, would, like, or is this, or does this smack of sexism or whatever? I don't know the answer to that. Probably both, I guess, right? I mean, it's like very few.

male characters completely kicking ass and dusting a group of enemy combatants would lead to like, hmm, is that person on super soldier's serum? But I think you're right that if it had been, I think you're right to ask if it had been a Tasha would people have been blinked, probably not because we've seen Nat in battle so many times. I mean, you can think just even of the Iron Man 2 sequence where, you know, it takes happy 47 minutes to not have his ear completely bitten off. meanwhile.

Right. Nat has strung up like a dozen of Hammersmen from the various air vents and whatnot. So all while wearing her worst wig.

Yeah. Exactly. We haven't seen enough of Sharon in the MCU. And that's part of what I found exciting about this. You know,

look, I love to watch anyone kiss Steve Rogers. Wonderful. Not great, of course, that she is Peggy's great niece. People have spent years talking about that.

We all know how we all feel about that. Not ideal. No. You know, Sharon didn't just bring a shield or an exo falcon suit here. She was on the front line leading the charge and kicking ass, and we just, I'm glad we got it. Yeah, no, me too. I'm really glad we got it.

And, okay, since we were also fond of poking at the plot hole of, like, why would Sam, need a bank loan surely, you know, Are you going to ask why she wouldn't have a pardon and why Steve didn't help her? Why Steve would leave Sharon twisting out of the wind? Can we talk about this for a minute? Give me your thoughts. Like, he never would. He never would.

Yeah. So I have to believe that she just went underground and stayed underground. Maybe you know, because you're more freshly in analyzing endgame than I am, but like, do we know how much time lapse between defeating Thanos, returning everyone, and, and, and, you know. Steve going back. Did he have time to check to see if Sharon was back and if he could help her? I feel like he would have made the time. Right? That said, one of the things, and I love endgame.

I love end game. I want to be clear. But one of the things that has always bugged me, actually, is that as beautiful and touching as I find the exchange between Sam and Steve when. old man cap returns and hands over the shield, it never sat quite right with me that Steve and Bucky didn't have a longer exchange, that there wasn't more of a conversation

around what Steve was planning to do. It's my number one gripe with Endgame. It does not make sense. I don't want to take, I'm glad that Sam got the shield. I wouldn't want to take that moment away from them, but the fact that we don't get more Bucky and Steve is bananas to me.

I rewatched that scene a couple times, actually recently. And I was like, you know, I feel like, I feel like they had a night before, one last night together, Bucky and Steve, where Steve told Bucky exactly what he was going to do. Because when they say goodbye at the quantum tunnel, it really seems like Bucky knows Steve's not coming back.

It does seem like Bucky knows that. You know what I mean? Like, it seems like a goodbye, goodbye. Well, if we're going to believe that, then we also have to believe that Steve reached out to see if Sharon was okay. And didn't help her? Like, what, you know, so. That one doesn't sit right.

That's a tough one. No. It feels, it feels, to me. And it does feed into the theorizing, though, because Sharon is so insistent in this episode that she cannot leave.

And like, even at the very end, when they're escaping after the lab explodes, she reiterates again that she can't go. And at that moment, it's like, Sam and Bucky have, well, Bucky, to be clear, has broken Zemo out of jail. He has

implored Sam. You broke the law once for Steve. Do it again for me, like they're also on the run. So it would be one thing if they were going back to normal life, but they're not. So her insistence that she can't be a part of that with them really like got the antenna going for me. I just thought that was particularly strange. Obviously, she's not happy to see Zemo.

Plenty of reason not to be happy to see Zemo based on everything that transpired in Civil War and the fact that getting the shield, getting the wing suit, all of that. that they could go fight Zemo and protect Bucky and challenge Tony, et cetera. All connected back to his plan. Her speech about how she doesn't have the Avengers to back her up, again, felt very notable here. Out on heroes, she says, look, you know the whole hero thing is a joke, right? I mean, the way you gave up that shield, deep down, you must know it's all hypocrisy. That felt new.

Now maybe she's just genuinely disenchanted with the system, not only the CIA, the government, but the people who she helped, who then did not help her back. That would all be completely believable. But the episode sparked another interpretation among many people is Sharon the power broker. Reminder here that the episode is called Powerbroker, which I think lends credence to the idea

that the Power Broker was in this episode, even if we did not realize it. Not just a mural on the wall as they walk through Madripor, or not just a whisper and exchanges inside of Brass Monkey, but actually in the episode playing an active hand. The Sharon theory almost felt like such a obvious thing to be thinking about, like they wanted us to be thinking about, that I went from, oh my God, Sharon is the power broker

literally shouting that during the episode to thinking, this almost feels so obvious that I now think it's a red herring. I agree. I agree. I want to hear where you are on this right now, and then we'll go through the evidence on both sides and then we'll offer our final read on it. Well, I don't want to blow any of the evidence that you're about to lay on me,

but I will just say that, like, yeah, I think it will only be satisfied, it will be so much more satisfying if the Powerbroker is someone we've already met, someone we know, right? I've read an Agatha Christie novel. I know you don't introduce the murderer right at the end. It's someone you know, right?

So if we haven't seen the Powerbreaker yet, I think it has to be either Sharon or Zemo. I think there are reasons it could be Zemo like just running this whole thing from behind bars, it feels like he could easily do that, you know what I mean? Behind glass, however you want to put it. And then, you know, for Sharon,

I kind of love that for her. Or she's still working with the CIA. That's also possible. But something is going on, obviously. They, you know, the very end when she is talking to her driver or whatever, something definitely is going on.

Very suspicious moment. Here's the one piece of evidence that you might have on your list that I will say has me most curious is like, how does Carly know immediately that Nagel is dead? And for me, that indicates that perhaps Sharon is running the flag smashers instead of is the power broker. Oh. Ooh. Oh, I get to hit you with a theory you hadn't thought about. This has not occurred to me.

I've been so deep in power broker hive mind that. I have not even thought about this. Interesting. It is notable that they know that right away. Right away. I feel like the way in which Sharon, I mean, it's significant that she doesn't go into the shipping container with them. So Nagel never sees her, right?

Well, you know what I mean? This is, but see, that's like to me the one of the main power broker bits of evidence. That one I find like a lot of these I can, I can state and then immediately. handwave. That one I have a tough time explaining away. So, okay. Here are some of the bullet points of supporting evidence. And again, some of them far less compelling than others. First of all,

she's in the bar. She's in brass monkey when they arrive. Keeps her hood up, doesn't say hi to them. Maybe is just trying to figure out why they're there before you know, revealing herself. She's certainly not happy with any of them. That's clear. So that could be just

routine. But seemed odd. and the powerbroker's watching mural that we see in Amadropore, I like the idea that the power broker would just be out there, out on the dance floor, out at the bar, selling the great wave in the fenced art gallery, out among the people, hearing, listening. I found the use of the pronoun he and the exchange between Zemo

and the muscle at the saloon, like, felt like misdirection maybe. Oh, we're supposed to think powerbroker's a guy. Yeah. Our broker is not a guy. Mm-hmm. Sharon shoots Selby. Now, maybe, of course, that's just to help Sam, Bucky, and Zemo escaping. Now.

Very perilous situation because of Sam's phone call. Is it that weird for a phone touring, by the way? Is it that strange? I mean, I don't know. Seems like a normal thing. What was all that about? But Selby says, they won't be able to find Nagel without her.

The bullet comes through, like, right around then. So is that power broker protecting the serum maker's location? We've seen that trope before happen in film and television where, like, the person you think is an ally kills the person who's about to spill the info because they're secretly the villain. You know what I mean? And they mask it as sort of a rescue thing, but really they just want to shut the informant up. You know what I mean?

Now, the counterpoint to that is pretty clear. which is that that would not align with Sharon then immediately taking them to Nagel. That would be strange. Why does she have a wardrobe for Sam and Bucky ready in her apartment? Should I not ask that question? I don't know.

Just ready for all occasions? Okay. Great question. Wonderful turtleneck. Thought that was just a great look. Excellent stuff. Okay. The John Wick-esque bounty hunter activation.

Everybody gets their text. occurs immediately after Selby's shot. How many people know that Selby is dead and saw that other than Sharon, the person who pulled the trigger? Is there like a bio alert on some, you know, important people? Maybe. Now, again, this one doesn't really make sense if you interrogate it for a second because why would Sharon send the bounty hunters after them and then immediately go help them by

killing the bounty hunters? but just throwing out all the evidence for us to consider. Well, to imperil someone that you want to ingratiate yourself by rescuing them. Love it. Love it. Love it. Okay. You cause the danger that you then rescue them from and then they think of you as an ally.

I love this. Live in the high life. Art fencing, amazing digs. Sam observes, you know, I don't know, it was like pretty nice, right? And Sharon says, at some point I thought if I had to hustle, I might as well enjoy the life of a real hustler. Is that a clue for us? Perhaps. I mean. This one

was notable to me, this next one. Sharon warns them. This would also fit with your Flag Smashers theory, though, I should say. Sharon warns them after they mention Carly and the Flag Smashers and says, you guys really should steer clear of all of this

for your own safety. And that felt like a comment that was informed by some sort of specific knowledge of these people and what has unfolded. Yeah. She also finds Dr. Wilford Nagel's location quite quickly after Selby said it was impossible to do so. Now, maybe this is because she's the power broker.

Maybe it's because she's undercover as an operative still and just has access to a different web of intel than we realize at the moment. And maybe it's just because she's super resourceful as an independent operator. Any of those would be believable, but one more data. point there. And then here I think is some of the more compelling evidence. You mentioned this already. She does not go into the container with them. This is my number one thing, even more than the exchange with the driver. She says she's going to keep an eye out. And she does quite effectively, as mentioned, takes out a lot of the bounty hunters. But maybe she didn't want Nagel to ID her and give away the ruse. Flipside again here is pretty clear, I think.

why lead them to her supplier? Yeah, I mean, what does she need from them? Is the question, right? Like, let's say she is the power broker. Like, what, yeah, what purpose would it serve to put them in front of Nagel? Maybe if they reveal that they know where Carly and the Flag Spasters are because she wants the serum back, the 20 doses. Now, of course, they don't know that. That's what they're trying to find out.

Or maybe it's a way for her to find out more about what they know. Do you know what I mean? because they do know, they do know Isaiah. They do know. When Nagel says he got it from like the blood of a prisoner, he doesn't even necessarily know who that person was. He either does not know, or as Sam mentions later on the plane, he speaks of him as a data point, right, a subject, not as a human being,

which you could also certainly believe from Wilford Nagel, a piece of absolute shit who we should mention is in, is in, truth is in the Isaiah comics, uses the alias, Reinstein, one of the many ways in addition to attempting to recreate the serum that he is trying to capitalize and leach off of Erskine's legacy. In the MCU, Nagle tells us that after working with Hydra to rebuild the Winter Soldier program, the CIA brought him in. Now, this is classic, like shades of shield and Zola and operandi. paper clip, right? But why is it notable here for the purposes of our theory? Because Sharon

worked at the CIA. So it's perfectly reasonable to at least wonder if she would have been aware of this, would have maybe known about Nagle's research and whether or not she blipped. He says here that he did, maybe when he comes back, they fight each other, throwing it out there. Well, I mean, fundamentally, you know, there are, do you have a, a similar rundown for Zemo being the power broker? I do. Amazingly. Fewer data points, but a few. I want to hear what you have to say about Zemo,

but I think fundamentally, when it comes to theories like this, we need to consider what we think will be the most narratively satisfying. And what's also true is that we learn from Wanda Vision that sometimes the simplest answer is the correct answer. And you think the simplest answer is that at Zemo? I think

the simplest answer is that it's Sharon. I agree with you that it seemed like they had their foot on the pedal a little hard in this episode, but like, that's something that I would encounter with theorizing about Wanda vision. And I was like, well, they're obviously pointing towards, you know, Agatha being a wichable, blah. So like, clearly there's another layer at play here. It wouldn't just be that. And then it's just that.

And you're like, oh, okay. So I think maybe they're not doing fourth dimensional chess the way that we might assume they are. But anyway, I want to hear your email. Well, the last couple things I think are that when Sharon does finally run into the lab, Neagle looks up. there's like a moment of recognition, I thought at least. And then when Zimo shoots Nagle, Sharon shouts, what did you do? Now, she had just, as mentioned, killed like dozens of people in seconds in the streets. Yes.

So that response to one person, bad person, dying, struck me as strange. What did you do to my asset sort of thing? Exactly. And then, of course, you already mentioned the car. the moment where her driver arrives and she says, we've got a big problem, actually, a couple of them. I'll tell you in the car, let's go. What's the counterpoint, basically, to all of that? Because that's a lot of evidence.

It's that Sharon is a hero in the comics and that this would be a weird choice. Or that she's in the CIA and is a deep cover for the CIA. Do you think there's any chance she works for the power broker? I'm not into that. I think either she is the power broker or is trying to take the power broker down through some sort of undercover mission

that we are not yet aware of. Yeah, I don't want her secondary to anyone and certainly not Zemo. If she's going to heal turn in some way, you know, she gets to be the queen of that story is what I think about Sharon Carter. So, yeah, I'm with you. Could they sell it, though?

Could they sell it as this being something that Sharon did and thought was right? Because I think that's of a piece with the idea of how Nakmos fell and the team has thought about the quote-unquote villain who has a point. Like maybe Sharon working to bring the serum into the world and create this operation and this force is not in her mind an evil act. She's lost faith in the government and the institutions that exist.

And not that I think Steve Rogers would ever have worked as the power broker to manufacture serum. I do not, to be clear. But we do hear him say in Civil War when they're debating the accords that the safest hands are still their own. So I think that the idea that the trust should be in our own hands, it's our decision to make and not these institutions that have failed us, would be in line, actually, with the characters that we associate as being part of the same arc here from the Captain America franchise. Whether or not I think it works, whether or not I believe that Steve would leave Sharon out there twisting in the wind. Like, I think they sold her cynicism in this episode pretty effectively and pretty hard. And I don't think audiences will have a hard time after they meet Sharon in this episode

believing that she's broken full bad into Powerbroker territory. And I mean, she's going to have to have a monologue telling us why she's done it, but I think she's up for it if she wants to do it. Would it be narratively satisfying for it to be Sharon? is a question that I have. I mean, thinking about the way that they put these shows together, like I know how this works in that they would say we want to do the power broker. This is how they thought about Wadivision.

They're like, we need a scientist, let's call Darcy. We need an agent, let's call Wu. You know what I mean? That's how these Marvel producers and writers put these puzzle pieces together. So we need a power broker. who would be fun in the Captain America bucket to pull out and put in the role of the power broker? And I think Sharon might be really fun for them.

I mean, Agatha is only the second female villain in the MCU, right? After Cape Blanchet, after Hela, right? And we also have Ghost in... And Ghosts, sure. Yeah, okay, Ghost. But it's still, like, early doors for them, and I think that they're really trying to, like, make up for a lot of time. So I could really see it being Sharon. and I really could.

What about Zimo? Do you think that there's a case that could be Zimo? Because I'll just say, I'm out on this. This is not one I believe. Now, I'm perfectly prepared to be wrong, as I always am,

with predictions in these stories. I think that there certainly is evidence. You know, he knows exactly where to take them the moment that Bucky comes to him, knows to go to Badgerpour, no hesitation. How would he be that informed

from his cell, you know, just them walking by the powerbroker's watching mural almost looked like Zemo's eyes. If you zoom in, I mean, I might just be like, I need to spend less time looking at my computer and more time outside. Maybe those are not his eyes. Were there little flicks of green in them? That is right after the pan in even closer.

The fact that he knows about the power broker, again, when he's been off the grid rotting in his cell as we hear Sal be safe for so long, even the way when Bucky says a power broker really, Zemo says, Every Kingdom needs its king, paired with the Machiavelli mention earlier. And obviously, you know, we've talked already a couple times about Masters of Evil and Thunderbolts and these groups of superpowered characters that he has run in his comics canon. But the thing that I can't move beyond, and I would love your take on this, is that that is just completely contrary to his MCU canon. And that primarily more than anything is what we should be parsing and operating against.

In the MCU, his defining character trait is that he wants to rid the world of the serum and rid the world of superheroes, not make more of them. And so, I mean, we even get their direct reminder from Bucky about that in this episode when, you know, he says to say, obviously, it's got a code, right? Super soldiers go against everything he believes. And maybe that's just misdirection, but... No, I'm with you. That's Zimo's whole bag.

So I don't know how you would reconcile his entire arc to this point with him being the power broker. I just don't. I completely agree. Like, all he wants is to eradicate the Super Soldier serum. And so why would he be dealing with the manufacture of it? I completely agree with you. So I think that makes me just land again on Sharon being the power broker. So you're in.

You're in on Sharon. Zimo having his own agenda running contrary to hers, right? because she wants, like, I'm thinking of Isaiah as the McGuffin. Much the same way, we talked about this on the still watching podcast, but much the same way that vision is used in Infinity War. You've got Isaiah who's got, you know, this magic blood inside of him, right? And you've got reasons for all of the antagonists to be after him, right? Like, Sharon, if she's the power broker, would want him to try to manufacture more serum from. Zemo would want to take him off the board to prevent more.

serum from being activated. Walker would want him because he wants more serum because he wants to juice up so he can be the strongest Captain America he can be. The flag smashes would want him because, you know, they also want to make more serum. So it all comes down to Super Soldier Serum, which is always fun to say, Super Soldier Serum, and the ultimate source of it. And the fact that it's not a vial, a beaker of something, but it's a living human that Sam has formed an immediate an emotional attachment to is potentially very strong storytelling. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business to keep companies

of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 US-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. This episode is brought to by Viori. When it comes to clothes that score high in both comfort and style, Viori is my MVP. Sunday performance joggers? Oh yeah. They have the perfect. I could watch a game and then go out to dinner vibe. And the metapant. That's my number one. I need to look like I tried option. Get 20% off your first purchase at Viori.com slash Simmons and discover the versatility of Viori clothing. Exclusions apply,

visit the website for full terms and conditions. It'll shock everybody to hear that we're running over time. So let's get to our mid-season awards. All right. I'm going to call them rapid fire mid-season awards. I'm not sure we're going to deliver on the rapid-fire part, but we're going to try. We'll do our best.

We'll do our best. Let's start with first half MVP. Who you got? Therapy Bucky. Oh, I love it. I think that was the best opportunity for Sebastian Stan to really like shine in the like sort of dry comedy that he can do. So I'm all in on therapy, Bucky.

What do you think? That's a wonderful pick. My pick is just the energy and the chemistry between Sam and Bucky. Reluctant partnerships in general, one of my favorite parts of MCU stories and really superhero stories more broadly. I always like watching these characters have to really work to find their way forward together.

The fact that, you know, I spent most of the first episode saying, I really want these two to be together, why aren't they together? But now in hindsight, I do like appreciate the fact that we got that time to really anchor each of the,

you know, our understanding of who they each are right now at this moment in time before they were put back together. It's important to have that sense of identity and purpose because I agree with you that finding purpose

and that clarity about what their purpose is and how it should drive them as a huge part of the mission of this season. Obviously, love all the callbacks that we're getting to their time with Cap. You know, Bucky still sleeping on the floor, a callback to the Sam, Steve Winter Soldier Exchange about the mattress feeling like a marshmallow. The notebook finding out it, it's not just a notebook like Steve's. It's actually Steve.

Sam got the shield. Bucky got the notebook. It's just beautiful. We got the great callback in this episode to the car exchange, you know, needing the extra leg room. You're not going to move your seat, are you, with them in opposite positions this time? Just the great combo of the action adventure buddy fair, but also that real thematic richness because of the subject matters that the season's exploring, you get a line like, it's in every action movie in this episode when they're arguing about which direction to go and who leads,

and then you pair it with these more heavy and impactful subject matters. It's been really cool to see. So that's my pick. Number two, biggest surprise of the season so far. Yeah, okay, so they've been telegraphing a lot of this stuff, right? We get Sharon mentioned in the episode before Sharon. You know, it's just like, remember this. We'll get it in the next episode. So I really should have seen this coming, but it's going to be Wakanda for me because I actually...

This is my pick, too. Yeah, I didn't expect Wakanda was going to be involved in this, but they mentioned Wakanda in both episode one and two. And so I really should have known that it was coming. So anyway, Wakanda. Seeing Io at the end of the episode was like, on the one hand, not a surprise for the reasons you just mentioned. And we even get the mention inside of this episode when Sam is reminding Bucky that Zimo killed King Tachaca. He says, did you forget that?

You think that Wakandans forgot about it. It's a rhetorical question. They didn't. I mean, that's obviously, you know, foreshadowing and priming. But still, when Bucky follows the cameoio beads, it's a, holy shit. Oh my God moment. So it's my pick for that as well. I've got to say,

very tough look for our guy, Bucky Barnes. Wakandans not only healed him, but they provided him with refuge as he spoke about in episode one. And as we mentioned earlier, this was a time of rare moment of peace for him,

freeing the guy who killed King Tichaka, not exactly the way to say thank you. They built him a new arm. What role do you see Wakanda playing the rest of the season. I don't think they're going to stick around for that long. I think it's just going to be in this next episode.

It would be my guess because I think of this as one of those forward-moving threads towards the Wakanda TV series that they're planning. They're planning like, you know, Wakanda to have its own Disney Plus show. So I just think of this as like one of those, like we saw a bunch of these in Wanda Vision and I will see more in this show. but they're always constantly like in the story they're telling it and casting their line towards the next story. So it makes sense that I would be here,

but I do think mostly she's going to be here for one episode and then move on to the next thing. All right, next. Fit of the season. Some great outfits, some great fashion. I think the one I picked because I think you're going to pick the other one, but maybe we both did that. I don't know.

I'm thinking Zimo's jacket. I have to. Okay, great. Then that was what I picked, but I'll switch to my first choice, actually, which was, of course, Sam's suit. Okay. Love it. Love it. Yeah. Incredible. Zmo's jacket's incredible, but the three-piece suit on Sam. That was also remarkable. Yeah. I just can't get enough of these rich guy vibes from Zemo. It's amazing. Oh, yeah. It's like, I'm a baron. When he put the mask on, I mean, it's an incredible moment that obviously comic book readers have been waiting for and anticipating.

So that was great stuff. I know. I love how there's no explanation for it. He's just like this, and this is my mask that I wear. Yeah. All right. Next. Scene of the season so far. Okay. I mean, this is going to be redundant to my first answer, but it's Bucky in therapy for me.

That works really, really, really well for me. Because I just think there's like, there's emotion in it, whether or not the therapy is good therapy. It's not. There's emotion in it. Dr. Raynor, we have some notes. And then the flash to like what actually happened as Bucky's narrating. and stuff like that, the reveal of his notebook, all these things. I just, I found it really charming.

So, Bucking in therapy for me. I'm picking Sam meeting Isaiah. Episode two, which we spoke about a bit earlier today. TD and I discussed that scene at length on last week's episode. But it was just so poignant and sad and thought-provoking and important. Isaiah is an elemental part of Marvel canon, thanks to truth. And it was just monumental and incredible to see him in the MCU. You know, the just hideous context that surrounded the actual sequence inside of the home

with the Baltimore police profiling Sam out on the street. The quotes from Isaiah in the conversation, you think you can wake up one day and decide who you want to be. It doesn't work like that. Well, maybe it does for fun. folks like you. Yeah. Amazing. Sam's response to learning that there was a black super soldier.

It's just such a powerful and important scene that speaks to the show's themes and mission. And then, of course, we met Eli in that scene, which just feels huge for the Young Avengers show or movie that we're clearly building toward. I guess it just, it felt to me that scene, not, I don't mean to yuck your yum or whatever, but to me, I just wanted more from that scene. just like three minutes more or something like that. Like I wanted Eli to make a little bit more

of an impression. You know, I know we're not done with him. I know we're not done with him, but it just felt like a little like, we have to plant this here so that we can pay it off later. And that's my only thing with that scene

is it just felt like in, out, move along. Do you know what you mean? But Carl Lumley's so good. And I'm so excited to see more from him. I cannot wait for more. I really can't. How about quote? of this season so far.

Favorite quote? I think this is my last therapy-related thing, so I'm just going to drop it here and then you will not hear about therapy again, but when he goes, oh, come on, really, you're going to the notebook thing?

Why? It's passive-aggressive. That was an amazing moment. I like Sebastian Stan's a delivery of that. Yeah. How about you? That's a great pick. Well, I already mentioned that Isaiah

quote, which probably would have been my pick if I hadn't just mentioned another category. I really love Sam's line from the first episode from the premiere, symbols or nothing without the women and men that give them meaning. One of the mission statements for the show, clearly. And, you know, I have a runner up here that I got to throw out there, which is...

Me. Very, very us core, very ring-reverse core here. So who are you fighting now? Gandalf. How do you know about Gandalf? I wrote the Haute in 1937 when it first came out. Very good. Very good stuff.

I love it. All right. I'm excited about this next one. Ship of the season, so far. What's your favorite ship of the season? It is obviously Sam and Bucky rolling on top of each other in the grass. It's got to be, it's Sam and Bugg. It's their love story.

Absolutely wonderful moment. Yeah. I'll offer up another nomination. Though, of course, I agree with the pick. How about this? I am now shipping after this episode a Sam Bucke, Sharon and Zimo orgy scene. And the orgy scene that should have been

because the changing sequence that we already discussed with the tunnel. Just some vibes in the room. Some vibes in the room. Okay? Thick. Thick vibes. So I'm into that. I want more of that.

I wish we had a spit off of that scene. And obviously just in general, I'm very interested to learn more about Bucky's Tinder experience and online dating life. Eager for more there. Yeah. Love it. Fight of the season so far. Easy.

That's a great one. I agree. I agree. I guess if we were going to look for a different nomination just for the sake of variance, I'll throw out Sam's fight against Bathtrock and the LAF in the first episode because I always enjoy seeing Falcon in flight. I really just love the movement and the hum of it. And also it was important to see Sam get a win.

That was big. And felt like a good way to back up all of the, we've made a multi-hour movie here, talk with a very flashy cinematic action sequence right from the jump. So that was good. But yeah, Sharon just dominating everybody with absolute ease. Yes. Love it. Yeah. Easter egg of the season.

Do you have a favorite Easter egg so far? Yeah, but it's not Marvel-related if that's okay. Oh, okay. In Buckie's notebook, right? He's got a list of names and you've got Zemo in there. But also you have P.W. Hauser, which is for Paul Walter Hauser, who is Sebastian's co-star and Iitania. So I feel like that's a move that like Sebastian made where he's like, I'm going to put my buddy,

P.W. Hauser in this notebook here. I just love that. So, yeah. That's absolutely wonderful. The notebook just gives you so much potential. They can do so many fun things with it. I wonder if they'll ever do anything in this show where, like, with Winter Soldier where the list was different in different countries.

Oh, I know, I know, right? When we get different versions of Bucky's List, that would be fun. That would be really fun. In general, as mentioned, I'm just loving all of the winks and nods and callbacks to Steve and the Captain America films. But in terms of Easter eggs that are specific to this season, I'll just nod more generally to the rich text that is the end credits sequence and how many Easter eggs and clues are buried in there. I mean, just the stuff that you can see on a quick first pass, you see

Isaiah's face and, you know, the word subject. Yeah. We see the power brokers watching or a piece of the power brokers watching wordmark above a vial of blue serum. There's what appears to be like the Eye of Providence above a GRC wordmark intriguing, the brass monkey logo, which of course, you know, paid off in this episode. And that doesn't even get into. I mean, those are just some of the more overt visuals. If you out there listening want to parse this, go freeze frame and try to read some of the text. I mean, there is a lot in the end credits.

Well, it's also, it's so interesting that they're doing this thing where, like, the title card is there even if the person isn't in the episode, right? So, like, the name will just be missing. They have these, like, weird gaps. So, like, if Emily Van Camp's in the episode, her name shows up there. But if she's not, then it's just like a blank spot waiting for Sharon to return sort of thing. So, yeah. location of the season. You have a favorite locale?

Can I do all of Madripor? Is that allowed? Yeah, that's my pick as well. All of Madripor it is. Yeah. Great stuff. I thought it was wonderful. The design of it is amazing.

We think we're probably going to get more Madrapore in the MCU. So I just think it was like really good to set up the like low city, high city. All of the design of it, I just thought ruled. So, yeah. Though I will say someone pointed out on Twitter that there were very very, very, very, few and maybe no Asians in Madripor. And this goes with like a longstanding sort of sci-fi futuristic city thing where like in Blade Runner or something like that, where you have this like future city that is very Asian

influenced, but there are no Asians there. So like where are all the Asians in Madripor is the question. So yeah. That's a very good question. Obviously this was, it was exciting to see Magripor come to life, but it was particularly powerful fuel for the already rampant X-Men MCU theorizing, which obviously dominated much of the Wanda vision viewing. And, you know, Madripor is a location in the

X-Men comics canon associated quite often with Logan. I thought it was not an accident that the camera lingered on the neon sign for the princess bar, a hangout of his. And one of the things I like about that is there's like an arrow, a little neon pink arrow pointing to the right of our screen. And it made me think of, like, the MCU has used arrows that way before to signal kind of like patience, something is coming.

You know, there's that fun moment in Spider-Man far from home when you can see the subway sign and its arrows pointing to the right toward a question mark for phase four. It says we're excited to show you what comes next. So I like the idea of like the arrow being a little bit of a, we know what you're waiting for. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Needle drop of the season. Musical moment that is stuck with you so far. I've mentioned it a couple times already,

but it's whenever I get to hear the Winter Soldier screech on the soundtrack. Great stuff. That's tied with the drumline version of Star-Spangled Man. That's my trick. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a really good one. Amazing stuff.

Obviously, John Walker, it's clear now. It doesn't deserve it. It was clear that it's clearer now with every passing moment. Do you know who I am? But it was just not only as a friend, Do you know what my father is? Yeah. It's such a kind of instant and sharp way to contrast Steve Rogers.

And this new cap, you know, it ports you back so organically to that Bontour sequence from First Avenger and watching Steve enter this new life. And although, honestly, it's just like a, it's a banger. It's just a great jam. Love to hear it. Oh, a great song. Do you have a theory of the season? A favorite theory of the season so far. obviously no shortage of theories with any MCU project.

It's less, I mean, because we spent so much time talking about the powerbroker and all that sort of stuff. You're on the record. You think Sharon is the power broker. Sharon's the power broker. Eli's going to get his powers from his grandfather's blood transfusion this season. Like all these things I think are going to happen with only three episodes left. I don't know how. But mine is more in appearance.

I feel like we're going to get old Steve. They're talking about Steve in the past tense. in this episode. So I feel like, you know, he's dead. So I just feel like we're going to get one more, one more old Steve appearance to make this feel really special for fans and stuff like that. Not that, not like this story on its own doesn't.

Amalyn. Can't wait to find out how he's able to keep tabs on what's going on here in the main timeline. And, you know. Yeah, I mean, or maybe they just don't want to touch that because they know they made a mess of the timeline. That is, yeah, that's like the one. thing is once he comes back, then we're never going to stop wanting that again.

Yeah. That's the only thing. But I would love it. I would love it. That would be so great. Oh, you know, I'm still very hyped about Torres becoming Falcon. I personally am very attached to the idea of Malice entering the MCU. Obviously, Malice was in Jessica Jones, but entering the MCU here.

and let's bring actual Red Wing the bird into the MCU and get some of that mashup DNA going. And let's like Torres take flight. I want it. Speaking of, that gets us to our final award, which is a bonus that I just, you know, had to put in because it's us, you know? Yes, I agree.

Most galling missed opportunity of the season to have featured an animal. No shortage of choices. I think we're going to have the same pick here. Go ahead. I mean, it's obviously, Bucky's canonical cat, Alpine. Yes! Where is Alpine?

Who should have been in the scene where he wakes up shirtless and is watching soccer. Like, the cat should have been batting at the TV screen or something like that. Bucky wakes up shirtless watching soccer and a cat bats

at the screen is the opening sentence of my latest fan book. It's just the coming together of so many things that we love. Why couldn't They give it to us, you know? I'm not giving up hope yet. I want to see actual Red Wing. I very much want to see Alpine.

There's a cat in the Loki trailer. More cats. It'll be the hashtag where's ghost of this season of television. Hashtaguer's Alpine. I can't do it. I can't. I can't return to the where's ghost moment. Still too painful for me.

The wound is too raw. Okay, Joanna. This has been an absolute joy. A thrill. Just a sincere pleasure. Been far too generous with your time. I am grateful and apologetic that we ran so long, but thank you for being here with us. Please come back. Love to have you have you here with us again very soon. Thank you for your insights. And again, check out everything that Joanna is doing.

She is the absolute best. You can read her in Vanity Fair on VanityFair.com. Listen to still watching the Falcon and the Winter Soldier. You can hear not only more of her Marvel insights and analysis, wonderful interviews. And get ready for the book. Complete history of Marvel Studios. Yeah, I will say this week, yeah, we have Nate Moore, who's been a producer at Marvel since, like, 2010. He's been there for so long.

And, you know, he worked up Black Panther. He's working on this, and he's just fantastic, which is one of those core consistent members of the Marvel team. So he's got some very insightful things to say about process and about how he feels about this story and all of that. Awesome. Yeah.

So watching. I wait to listen. Wonderful. All right. Joanna, thank you so much. We'll see you out on the dance floor. See you there. Okay.

It's time for the R.U. Tony's stank mail delivery of the week with Jomi. Jomi, what's up? I'm feeling good. You know, we're halfway through Falcon and the Winter Soldier. So I'm ready to see where the next half of this season takes us. Let's go. We've got some good mailbag questions yet again.

Oh. dive right in. We always do. We always do. I love this question. From Tob Robson, why does Falcon and the Winter Soldier feel so much less

like an event than Wanda Vision too soon on the hills of Wanda Vision, not as outside the box as Wanda Vision, or just not as good. Interesting. Okay, so I'll say

from the jump here that I think this is probably a better perspective, right? Not necessarily everybody feels that way. Maybe certain viewers think that Falcon and the Winter Soldier

is more of an event viewing experience than Wanda Vision. But I think that the answer, it's probably a couple different things. First, I think that Wanda was just the first thing. You know, it wasn't supposed to be initially, but because of the schedule shifts in the pandemic, it was the first MCU injection that we got since far from home came out in July of 2019, the beginning of phase four. And I think it just, people were hyped, man, really excited to have a new Marvel story.

Also, I think that there was less clarity about what, Wanda Vision was going to be and how it was going to work. And so it was really like an organic, surprised and delight. And I think that sparked a lot of excitement. A Falcon and the Winter Soldier has been excellent. It has been much more so in line with what we were told to expect and with how the show was marketed, right? I think also the fact that Wanda Vision was a mystery box was a puzzle show inherently heightens

the water cooler and Twitter trending topic style of speculating. and conversation around it, from Quicksilver to Mifisto, who's the cameo going to be? Will this be House of M? Et cetera, et cetera, on and on the list goes. You know, I think that Falcon and the Winter Soldier,

which is, you know, a deeply thematically rich viewing experience and this action adventure buddy romp but doesn't it lend itself quite as well to the, is Mephisto around the bend style of speculation? I think this episode, episode three, was the one where it felt like it moved a little, Agreed. Agreed. I mean, Wanda Vision had, who was Mephisto, Falcon Winni Soldier has, who is the power broker? You know what I'm saying? So the same energy is there, but I think to your point, it's just... I've enjoyed all of the, maybe the power broker was Agatha all along tweets out there. Good stuff. Good stuff.

Yeah, to your point, it's just really different. Wanavision let us speculate wildly. Like we were talking Fantastic Four mutants, you know, with Farmeruner, soldier is much more standing, it's much more grounded in the MCU. But that said, even this episode sparked mutant theorizing. So it's, it's an ingrained part of the experience, no matter what. I think it was just very heightened with WandaVision. Absolutely. All right. Our next question from Gurr, L.A.

Best MCU hangs at the club. Oh, boy. Great one. Inspired by Zemo and his dance moves, of course. I'm going with, I mean, no, boy, no shortage of contenders here. I'm going with the Asgardians. I think that they know how to party and they love a party. You've got Thor and his, you know,

a thousand-year-aged spirits. Loki and his mischief. Volstag and a multi-course meal for your delight and enjoyment. If you're lucky enough to be at a party with Thor and the Warriors Three and Siff, you got Heimdahl who can keep an eye out for trouble. Now maybe he'd miss it. You know, Dark Elves. on the fucking doorstep before anyone noticed.

But I think that's the group that comes to mind first for me for best hanging at a club. How about you? It's got to be my guy, Tony Stark, but pre-Iron Man 2. This is pre-Iron Man 2. So not the Tony who pissed in a suit and hurled watermelons into the air. Yeah, no, this is definitely the guy. Shot them out of the sky at his own birthday party. Different, different Tony.

Pre-that? This is the guy who has, you know, sake on the ready on his jet. you know what I'm saying like he's ready to party anytime you know it's not he's not too crazy but he's right in that wheelhouse like I'm gonna have fun like we go we're gonna show up back at the hotel at 6 a.m. that's the kind of party I'm looking forward to with Tony Stark that's my guy that's my pick our last question from Amanda at Prisma 8 SLG given that we've had young Avenger cameos in WandaVision and Falcon and the Winter Soldier do you think Loki will have one If so, who?

Okay. First of all, a reminder to check out the Loki and Black Widow trailer breakdown pod from Van and Charles. If you haven't yet, I'll have a full Loki trailer breakdown for you. There's one obvious answer here, right? It's got to be Kid Loki. It has to be. A member of the Young Avengers in the comics, here's a theory for you. We're not going to get into the trailer frame-by-frame-by-frame breakdown here,

but if you haven't watched a trailer and you don't want to, to hear anything about it. I hope you've enjoyed your time here today and we'll see you next week. If you're staying put, theory, we see in the newest trailer that restoring the timeline is going to be a central part of the show.

What if Loki has to sacrifice himself to preserve and restore the timeline and that is how we get Kid Loki, key part of the Young Avengers. Or, another theory for you based on the trailer. This one's already gaining steam online.

We hear the phrase, this Loki variant in the trailer, maybe that's a reference to just a new timeline, Loki, if possible. But maybe it points to multiple lokies in this TV show. Loki. Lady Loki. Kid Loki.

Why not? Is there another young Avenger you could see being in Loki? Honestly, I mean, Could be other. I mean, who knows? Any possibility I accept at this point. Honestly. I'm thinking, well, because I feel that Wiccan and Kit Loki would kind of feel the same space. You know what I'm saying? Like in terms of like the power sets. I mean, you know, no. You come on.

Honestly, though. Like, you know, you got Wicke in already. Anything that has to do with Loki is to me its own sacred storytelling. That's a space where you're never going to say you don't want Loki or something associated with Loki because of another character. And I think you can say, I think, pretty clearly on the heels of Wanda Vision that Wicked and Speed, Bill and Tommy, coming back into the MCU feels like a lock, as we've discussed before here on this very podcast. So I can't see them deciding not to do Kid Loki just because other characters are there. Loki's unique. No, that's fair. And here's what I think. Like, here's my big galaxy brain theory, okay?

Because, again, spoilers for the trailer, if you don't want to get it spoiled for you, I think, like, the big bad, the person that we're going to, you know, was going to be the bad guy in this one, is Loki, but a different Loki. There was this comic run, Agent of Asgard, where Loki had to fight different versions of himself. And I think that'll be the main bad guy in this series.

And maybe that's the bad guy that the Young Avengers fight when their series or movie comes. You know, so we still get Loki with the Young Avengers, but it's an older Loki. And he's like, oh, I can take these kids. You know, that's easy. But, you know, the kids handed to them at the end there. That's my big Galaxy Brain take. I love it. I'm excited.

Kevin Feige, I'm right here. Just absolutely can that way for Loe. again, a cat in the trailer. What more do we need? I'm content. I am now content. That's all you need. That's all you need. All right, Jomi. That was a delight as always. Thank you. Cannot wait to do this again with you next week.

Send us your questions. As always. Well, friends, it's time to hit the dance floor with Zima, which means it's also time to wrap today's episode. Remember, follow us on Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Ringerverse and join the Ringers. Facebook group. Send us your mailback questions for next week's episode. Another reminder, the Midnight Boys, Van de Charles, will be back on Friday afternoon with their instant reaction to the Falcon and the Winter Soldier episode four. Be sure to check out their Loki

and Black Widow trailer breakdown episode in the meantime. Thank you, as always, to Steve Allman, wonderful producer. Thank you to TD St. Matthew Daniel, Arjuna Ram Gapal, and the entire production team for their help with this episode. Thank you to Joanna and Jomey for joining me today. I'll be back next Tuesday for more Falcon Winter Soldier Talk, and hopefully an update on which canvas I've managed to procure from Sharon's den of stolen goods.