The Ringer-Verse - 'The Falcon and the Winter Soldier' Season Awards and Finale Analysis

Episode Date: April 27, 2021

Mallory Rubin is joined by Midnight Boy (and Academy Award winner) Van Lathan to talk about the finale of 'The Falcon and the Winter Soldier.' They share their thoughts and feelings about the finale and the season as a whole (05:31). They also react to news that the next 'Captain America' film is in development (31:10) before giving out season superlatives and answering your questions! Host: Mallory Rubin Guests: Van Lathan and Jomi Adeniran Producer: Steve Ahlman Production: Arjuna Ramgopal and TD St. Matthew-Daniel Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at Fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. Sharon, Bucky, what's going on on your end? Nothing all quiet. I'm sorry, wait. Who are you?

Captain America. Black Captain America was on the moon. Greetings. And welcome into the Ringerverse here on the Ringer podcast network. I'm Mallory Rubin, co-host to binge mode, head of editorial here at the Ringer. And it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only to New York City, but to join us on this new podcast feed for Marvel, for superheroes, for Star Wars, all things, nerd culture and family. them. Joining me today is a very special guest. So special that this line and the outline here is highlighted in gold. He is host of Higher Learning with Van Lathen and Rachel Lindsay. He is a host right here

on the ringerverse, one half of the midnight boys. And Steve, drumroll please. Airhorn. Champagne corks flying through the air in celebration please. Damn, son, where'd you find this? He is now an Academy Award winner. It's Midnight Boy and Oscar boy, Van Lathen. What up! Oh, my God. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Long night last night, but triumphant, yeah. Van, you won an Oscar. We did last night. Two Distance and Strangers. Best live action short film. Crazy night, man. How are you feeling? Just incredibly proud and overjoyed?

Yeah. Like last night, I went into it all day, not being super nervous, but right before they called our names, I was very nervous, and then just a wave of relief and euphoria. So happy for the team, the genius of Trayvon Free,

the direction of Martin Desmond Row, Nick, Jesse, Puff, Mike, Kevin, everybody over at Dirty Robert, Mickey, just the whole nine. It was amazing. Just a whole nine. If anybody has not seen Two Distance Rangers, go watch it.

It's on Netflix. Send Van, Trayvon, and the whole team, all of your joy. It's amazing. Thank you for being here with us today. I can't believe you're on Zoom right now. It was a,

I literally, I tapped out last night. So we had our viewing party. And then the Oscars ended. We had a very response. Viewing Party. Everybody was kind of like, you know, the Oscars ended, and then Trayvon and them came, and then with them came their statues, and the whole place went insane. You know what I mean? Everybody's covered in champagne. And then after that, it's just so weird in this new world, like having to get a COVID test before you go into something. So after that, there was the Judas and the Black Messiah kickback. And those guys were like, come on over here. So, we went to the party and we're hanging out and stuff like that. And then all of a sudden, Drake came and I was like, I got to go.

I was like, this is about to be, you know, shout out to him. He's a cool guy. But like this is about to be too much for my 41-year-old bones. We're going late into the night. So we call Uber's and we got out of there. But it was fun. It was fun. Oh, my God.

We and the Ring Reverse listeners are truly honored to have you here with us today to talk. to talk about the Falcon and the Winter Soldier because finale aired last week, you and Charles already broke down that finale in full on the Midnight Boys Friday and the Reaction episode. If anyone hasn't listened to that, check it out. Today, we're going to talk about the finale a bit, but we're also going to pan out and look at the season as a whole.

We're going to run through our season awards. We're going to run through some mailbag questions. Jomi is, of course, here with us for the delivery detours. Before we dive in, a few reminders for everyone. In addition to the Midnight Boys instant reaction on the Falcon finale, Van and Shea have a Mortal Kombat reaction up for you on the feed right now. Check that out if you haven't. This coming Friday, the Midnight Boys are going to have an instant reaction on the invincible finale.

So be sure to come back for that. And then next Tuesday, I will be back to chat about the Bad Batch premiere, Star Wars. Oh, wow. Nice. Yeah. Can't wait. Can not wait. I'm excited about that.

Yeah. Me too. I've been rewatching, Wars, just a delight for me. Cartoon Obi-1, one of my all-time faves. A couple more quick reminders, and then we're going to dive in. Follow us. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Ring Reverse.

Join the Ringerverse Facebook group. So many fun conversations happening in there. Don't miss out. Check it out. Follow the pod on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. And of course, your friendly neighborhood spoiler warning. Today's podcast is going to feature plot details from the Falcon and the Winter Soldier finale, One World One People, as well as.

details from the entire Falcon season and really the entire MCU run to date plus some comics can and so proceed accordingly. Okay. Then, before we get into our season awards, thoughts and feelings about the finale itself now that you've had a couple more days to process it, you've been sitting with it over the weekend. Feeling the same way that you were on the Midnight Boys episode? Any new thoughts or feelings or reflections? Largely the same way, but with minor tweaks. I think one of the main criticisms I had of the episode was the look of Sam's suit. And

I got to be honest, on a couple of rewatches, it actually got used to it. I think it's a at a first viewing. And by the way, I also looked at this. First suits in Marvel are never complete

home runs. I went back and I watched some first suits. I watched Thor's first suit. I even watched Black Widow's first suit. I watched a couple of these people, the first thing, Captain America, the first thing that they were in.

And these things got tweaked and got better over time. And they also adjusted them to the story that they were in, right? It shouldn't be shocking to me that the first time I saw Sam as Captain America, I was like, wow,

that's interesting looking. Even in my rewatch of it, it grew on me. And that was the first thing. Secondly, you know, I think the last episode is actually, the finale should I say, is actually a pretty good referendum on the series itself, meaning overall, like the series, it worked. But it also leaves remnants of other storylines.

Of course, we all know the rumors about the vaccine subplot that was scrapped and other things that weren't quite realized. And I think that's to be expected for any show that's packing this much story in the six episodes. But what you had was a really fun ride that delivered on its promise to make Sam Wilson Captain America. They made him Captain America. That was the point of the show.

It gave you six episodes to do that. They did it. And I was actually thrilled with the whole show as a whole. On the suit front, I had the same reaction where it grew on me as I rewatched a couple times over the weekend. I think the fact that it's such a comics, accurate suit, paired with what you already said about the fact that there's a long track record of the MCU iterating and improving upon the suits as the characters go. I'm content. I love the, it obviously looked,

you know, quite silly in spots, but I do love the actual power of the suit and all of the Wakanda tech. One more moment where a shir is just dunking all over Tony and the Stark tech. I have to love that. I didn't love the finale. I liked it a bit more rewatching the entire season, including the finale over the weekend. But the problems that I had with the finale don't detract for me from the overall success and overall experience of watching the season, which I really enjoyed. I'm curious to talk to you for a minute about, you know, I think we'll go through in the course of our season awards and toasting some of our favorite things.

I think inherently we will mention some of our least favorite things or the things that we thought we were less successful. And I think some of the finale plot lines with the Flag Smashers, Carly, the very hurried conclusion of John Walker's arc, which was, I think we agree, one of the least successful parts of the finale. I think we'll talk about all of that as we go. But I'm curious more broadly what you think about the narrative that has again set in in the wake of another Disney Plus Marvel TV show, which is this, does Marvel have a finale problem question? This was a big conversation point coming out of Wanda Vision.

It is again now. What do you make of that? Yeah, I think it's going to be something going forward. I do want to say something about one more thing about the suit. Yeah. There's a part of me that wanted to see a scene where the Wacondans are sitting around making this suit and laughing their asses off. Speaking in Wicondon going, let's make him look like a big white bird. You know what I mean?

They're just sitting around going, they're laughing and they're speaking with Kond and hey, he's going to, and they're saying the big white bird, they're just, there's some women putting the vibranium together, some, some male scientists and some female scientists in there, and they're putting it together. They're like, ah, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Because they always do something janky. And I also want one more thing I'll say before we, at what point are they going to remote operate Sam's suit?

Because they always put some kind of fail safe in there where they can stop him. saw this with with bucky's arm yeah sam gonna be in the suit one day and they're just going to send him to alaska or something like that droning him anyway shout out to the wakundits um so to your question about the finale as far as marvel is concerned i'm gonna do something that i'm that i hate doing and that i almost never do i'm going to blame the audience here i'm going to blame the audience now was this finale or the wandavision finale good. Not necessarily in terms of comparing it to the rest of the series. They weren't bad, but if you compare both of them to the penultimate episodes of those series, they didn't really hold up, right? Well, that's largely our fault. Now, the Flagsmasters and them not being a real player,

in any real emotional way in the series, had more to do with what I think they had to sort of reconfigure based around the pandemic. Not giving them any outs, but I think that's probably a lot of what had to do with that. I think they lost some emotion and some characters, and they lost a lot of the motivations that they would have had, and we would have seen them play out on screen.

However, the fact that the Thunder Bowl Ross didn't become the power broker, the Mandarin didn't become the power broker, Reed Richards didn't become the power broker, Charles Xavier didn't become the power broker. The fact that none of those things happened, right? The fact that the mutants didn't get it, but we keep deep diving these things and setting ourselves up to be let down

by these really penetrating theories that are going into the core of the Marvel universe itself and, of course, the MCU. And I think that we're setting up stakes and it's good for the shows, but we're eventually going to be let down. This is the same thing that happened with Wanda Vision. Now, on its face, the Wanda Vision finale was hokey

in it of itself anyway, right? It looks kind of crazy what it is they were doing. But the real reason, if we're being honest with ourselves, why both finale's kind of didn't hit with us is because we were so fixated on the power broker. We were so fixated on the aerospace engineer. We want these big, huge, Easter-Egy type of finale, And I think both shows have proven that they're not doing that.

So from a story perspective, I agree that this was one of the weaker episodes of the season. However, also, we kind of keep setting ourselves up for the slaughter here while they're just telling their paint-by-number story. Okay. I have so many thoughts in response to that. Oh, where to even begin? I think that what you're outlining is not even specific to Marvel or Marvel TV shows. This goes back to Rise of Skywalker, Game of Thrones, on and on the list goes, right? And I don't want to be like painfully earnest and corny right from the top.

I was planning to pace myself before I got there. Okay. But that's a shame to me. That's the takeaway, that the conversation among the fans is in some way leading to disappointment because, and not to like overly glorify the online discourse, which, again, you could just cite those same examples that I just mentioned as areas where there was a lot of toxicity and fraught conversation that was not a good thing. But broadly, I think that one of the things I love about these shows, these movies, these

books, these stories, is the spirit of community that they foster, the fact that there are things that we share together and that we love talking about together. So I don't, and again, like, you know, mileage may vary. This might just be me, but I definitely felt like a keen and potent type of rage when Ralph Boner happened. Yeah. But I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm I'm not going to stop theorizing about who Quicksilver might be because that's part of the fun of it. That's part of what I love is hopping on here with you guys and talking about who that might be, texting with my friends about who that might be. So, I mean, I definitely think what you're identifying is right, you know, that there's always the kind of delicate calculus of hype and expectations versus what is ultimately going to come to fruition. I will say, though, that I think that is a distinction between the Wanda vision finale and the Falcon finale, because I think a lot of the frustration with the Wanda finale was tied up in that, right?

How much of the conversation and discussion and the theorizing around the plot points didn't feel for the audience like they ultimately bore fruit. There's definitely some of that at play here with Falcon. I mean, that's actually something that I found myself trying to think about and approach in a slightly more measured fashion as I rewatch, because a lot of my feelings the first time were, oh, my God, I can't believe we didn't get to see Torres put on the wingsuit. Oh, my God. I can't believe we only got two seconds with Zemo. Oh, my God. I can't believe we don't actually know what vows up to. But then on a rewatch, you think about it.

You're like, well, there are nearly 30 Marvel projects in the works. Of course we didn't get all of that here. That's still going to come later. The thing that worked less well for me about the Falcon finale, not even compared to other Marvel properties, but compared to the prior episodes of this television show, which I thought reached extraordinary highs, is the pacing and the character development.

That was where this fell flat for me, not necessarily the theorizing. Like, I loved, loved, loved the thematic focus and ambition and mission of this show. I loved the relationship between Sam and Bucky, and I loved Sam's arc and everything with Sam and Isaiah. And I think Sam's arc in particular in the finale was successful. Seeing Sam in the Captain America suit, hearing him say, I'm Captain America,

hearing other people call him Cap, going on Twitter on Monday morning right now, and going to the Captain America Twitter page and seeing Sam's picture, typing in a Captain America hashtag and seeing Sam's emoji. That's incredible. Almost every other character arc in the finale I thought had a problem. And so much of it was structured around. on an action sequence that I think, again, compared to even what this show had done

in prior episodes, just didn't work as well. So for me, it's more about that, but again, it doesn't in any way diminish how much I enjoyed watching this show, how much I'll enjoy continuing to watch it over and over again in the future. And I think what the very likely connective tissue is for this show, Wanda Vision,

and all of these other properties, that's part of the fun. We're at the beginning of Phase 4. There's so much still to come. So for me, Sam was such a big chunk of it, right? getting Sam to the point to where all those hashtags matter, Sam matters, black caps matter. Getting him to the point where all of that stuff was mattered was a big deal. So I felt like if his arc was successful, the show was successful.

That was all that mattered. Yeah. Right. I agree with that. And I also felt like Bucky's arc was realized in the finale. And the show is essentially about them. So I was cool with that. John, I didn't expect John to turn to break back good in this episode, and I think it was a mistake. John Walker has plenty of time in the MCU to come back and be U.S. agent, a character who is an anti-hero, leaning more towards hero for most of his time in Marvel.

He has plenty of time to do that. They did not have to do that in this episode. They didn't. They could have come up, they had a comeback, suffer another defeat. he gets whisked away by someone and now he's going to go have a second chance to go serve the government so I don't know even why they even did that

and it didn't seem that they were setting anything up immediate so I don't think they should have done it Carly and those guys they just weren't that they sucked like they it just it wasn't a thing but I will say this for a lot of stuff that happens

that happened in the finale that we did not like I'm telling you now I'm telling you now I'm telling you. If Zimo turns around and Zemo goes, I knew I'd see you. I knew you were behind this. And then all of a sudden you turn around and it's the Mandarin. The finale goes for most people, from four stars to five and a half. We worked ourselves up, and even with Skywalker, we badgered Disney out of doing what it is that they did. They changed the whole thing and made

Palpatine, the girl's grandfather, because we bullied them into doing that. And the audience is here will continue to bully these companies with the fact that we have a lot of free time on our hands and the whole nine. On that point, though, first of all, I want to be clear. I was not a fan of that. Do not condone that. Right. That was a debacle.

But that's actually one of the most important distinctions. Rise of Skywalker was a failure to understand the heart of the story, a failure of the people who made it to understand the characters in the heart of the story. That's not a problem that Marvel has. Marvel understands its characters and understands why people invest in them and care about them. And so the Walker finale arc feels very emblematic of, again, I raise it even as just a contrast. between what was so successful, I think, in the earlier episodes, and then just inverted in this kind of hurried, confusing way.

Like, it was uncomfortable and weird to see Walker and Bucky joking about Lincoln quotes and Walker and Sam nodding at each other. And Walker getting to celebrate with his repeated on-back exclamation. Two episodes ago, he executed a Flag Smasher, in the street. And last episode, he tried to murder Sam in that same way, lifting the shield above his head. Bucky stopped him and crucially showed absolutely no accountability or remorse for what he had done. That's the missing ingredient.

Like, I love a redemption arc, not about John Walker, just in general, in stories as much as the next person. Almost to an embarrassing, like, self-parity extent. I love a redemption arc. You have to spend the time walking that path. And especially in a show where Sam's do the work line from episode five is so fundamental to the through line across episodes and the journey of the show, where was the work for Walker? He looks at one truck and sees people in it who are about to die and makes the decision to save them instead of pursuing his vengeance. And that's enough. When did he do the work?

where was his remorse? You just need time to show the character doing that. That was absent. You do. That's always the hardest part of any of this stuff for me. I go back and I watch Civil War and I'm like, yo, man, I love the way Zemo dances, but this motherfucker killed a lot of people. I know.

Zemo killed King Tcha. It's like he's cool, but there's some red in his ledger. Same thing with Bucky. But you're right. Over the course, you get to, and especially if we're comment. If you're a comic fan, you know that depending on the way the wind blows, Magneto is either helping the X-Men or he is trying to destroy New York City. That is how binary that character is.

He's either trying to help the X-Men or he's trying to kill every human on the planet. And a lot of these characters go back and forth. I was raised on an Emma Frost that was the White Queen of the Hellfire Club. And she ends up becoming one of the most powerful and prominent X-Men by the time I'm in my 20. So it happens, but it takes time for it to happen. the Walker thing they definitely got wrong. They definitely got wrong. I think it happens in the comics, but to your point,

it shouldn't have happened this quickly. I still think overall, I wouldn't say temper your expectations, but I will say just for everyone to enjoy the shows and really enjoy all of this stuff, let it breathe and exist and take it as it comes. Sometimes Quicksilver is just Quicksilver. Now, and unless they do something.

Sometimes it's Ralph Fon. And sometimes he's Ralph Boner. You know, unless they do something in Loki that answers all of these questions, these... Because another thing is this, you know what? And I know we got to move on from this, but this is the last thing I'll say, you know what I do? I do the same thing you do.

I do the same thing that everybody else does. This stuff comes out. And then I watch it. I watch a trailer. Forget about the movie. And then I go watch new rock stars or one of these other YouTube things. And it's like the 87. Easter eggs in a

Shang-she trailer. I love Easter eggs. I love Easter eggs too, but do you know that Easter eggs dominate my life? Like, I'll be doing something in the seasoning chicken to cook, to cook on the thing, and Calico would be like,

man, we need to take the dog out. And I'll be like, I don't know if you know, but the rings are rings now. They're bangles that he puts on his arms. Fing FAM Foon might be in the movie. She's like, what are you talking about? Like the stuff gets out of my hand I just starts speaking it out

I'm on the phone, my tax guy I'm like, it's like, man you know, what's the square footage of your office? We can probably cut that out and deduct that out of your rent and you know, you could save some money. And I believe,

what if your office were a pocket dimension inside of a flurking? Right. Hey, bro, you think Reh Richards is an aerospace engineer? Like it just, we just, it consumes us. So every point that you made is valid and every point you made about the finale, of course, is valid.

I also do think that a lot of people are dissatisfied with the power broker reveal. And I think it's something that's in the back of most fans' minds that the show told us it was sharing the whole time to the point to where we didn't believe it was sharing and then it was sharing. Right. It was telegraphed so fully. It got to the point where it felt like it had to actually be a red herring and that would be the only satisfying reveal. Yeah, that was another one that I thought fell a little flat. I don't have any issue with making Sharon the power broker.

I think, again, it feels like one where a little, a couple more scenes, couple more lines dialogue, a little more time spent, understanding exactly how we got there. Because, you know, there's this feeling as a fan of the MCU where you hear the senator call her Agent Carter, you know, and invoking the Carter name in Peggy's legacy and the family legacy. and your blood starts to boil because of what we have seen Sharon do. Now, we're going to get later into some of the unanswered questions that we're excited to see answered in the future. I think the power broker plot and Sharon are at the heart of a lot of that.

Same with some of the theories. We'll talk about secret invasion, armor wars, scroll possibilities. We're going to get to all of that. I can buy almost any outcome. I just want to know exactly how we got there. So Sharon feeling disenchanted with systems, structures, bodies feels very much in line with the themes of the show. That's great. Sharon feeling abandoned and changing her outlook.

Okay. Sharon planting a mercury bomb onto a person's chest and burning him alive in his truck because she's... very mad at everyone and just becoming a cold-blooded murderer, we need a little more there. And again, that's where I go back to, okay, well, I assume we'll get that in time. So I'm trying to be patient. And I think that's ultimately where I land with the,

is there a finale problem question? To me, ultimately, despite everything I just said, the answer is no, because one of the things that's rewarding about these stories is, again, how they hold up on a rewatch, how the picture starts to really clarify a click into place with each additional installment. So, you know, I always think of Tony saying part of the journey is the end,

but there are a lot of steps before the end. Like most of the journey is the journey. So I'm going to try to stay patient. I wonder about like flipping the penultimate and final episodes in some of these seasons, getting the big action set piece out of the way. Isn't it always like that? That wasn't for Game of Thrones, all those years that we loved Game of Thrones until it became a zombie version of itself.

The penultimate was always. Absolutely. The ninth episode of the season was always the astonishing. Yeah, I mean, Baylor is the ninth episode of season one. Of course, Frames of Casimir Red Wedding is the ninth episode of season three. Battle of bastards, I think. But I have so many thoughts I gave Thrones. Okay. So the reason that that worked so well, and there are many, but a couple of them,

there was the subversive quality to the true, true, true surprise and shock. And that gets back to what you were saying, which is if the MCU products are not delivering that shock. I mean, I think back to The Mandalorian, actually, a lot is an interesting comp for these shows. And I love The Mandalorian. I've loved both seasons of it. I have a Grogu right behind my head right here. I'm not saying, back there. She's a little bastard.

It's just the best. My guy, so much of that show, and there are a lot of things that make it successful, still trace us back to the fact that nobody who, nobody alive, Nobody alive knew the baby Yoda was coming. And that was like a pop culture miracle. It's really hard to pull something like that off. With Game of Thrones, you have the shock of what happens in those penultimate episodes. The really, in the earlier seasons, like expert level storytelling and execution,

you also have a roadmap for the story at that point. And then you have the codas. And that's what I think, you know, even, think of this was something like far from home as the coda to phase three after endgame. Sometimes you need the quieter moments to come last so you can reflect along with the characters. I think that kind of slight recalibration could be helpful here. But ultimately, I leave the Falcon and the Winter Soldier finale, loving the Falcon and the Winter Soldiers, the season of TV.

It's great. And just feeling unbridled joy and excitement for everything that's still to come. Yeah. And I will say about the Mandalorian is the Mandalorian also doesn't have the same storytelling problem because the Mandalorian in its rifleman, 1950s, 1960s, each new adventure every single week with the through line of him

trying to get the kid back. People don't understand how conventional the storytelling on the Mandalorian is. The Mandalorian is almost Star Trek. Like, hey, we're on a new planet. We got a problem. We figured this problem out on this episode, but we're still on our way or we're running from the Romulans or whatever, whatever's

going on. And so, we do way less conjecture about what's going to happen in the Mandalorian so that when Luke Skywalker shows up in the Mandalorian, I'm like yo, fucking take my money, Disney. I don't give a fuck.

But I don't come like, like, it's something, we're not, we're accepting the narrative that the show is giving us. And all I'm saying is we do a lot of work for Marvel. We do a lot of work for them. They just sit back, Fikki just sits back and laughs. Fikki goes, hey,

hey, hey, he calls the Robert Donnie Jr. Hey, what are you doing, man? How's retirement? I'm just chilling. Just me over here. Trying to spend all the money you gave me. Hey, dude, check Twitter. They're going crazy. They're going Twitter. Like, bro, check Twitter. They're going crazy.

They're not even, we're not even doing the big shit. This is our Disney Plus shit. Check Twitter. Check Twitter. Okay, bye. Bye. Love you. And that's the way they go. So every point that you made this, made this valid, I just know I won't get burned again. That's all that's all I'm saying. Okay.

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Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. we got some news on Friday. The Hollywood Reporter reported that Malcolm Spellman is developing a cap four film for the MCU, co-writing the script with Dallin Muson, and then later that day, Deadline put out its version of the report, which included this quote,

quote, while not confirmed sources say the project Spellman is writing, could be one focused on Anthony Mackey's Sam Wilson character. I think we can assume that's a given. But the quote continues here, while the possible Chris Evans' Captain America project would be separate, that struck me as very strange. Interesting.

The second part of that quote, like, are we going to get an alt-dimension Steve Rogers story at some point? I mean, who knows? I guess anything is possible. But broadly, a cat movie with Sam at the center, Malcolm Spellman Helming, is in the works. Are you excited about it? I am, I'm excited.

There's also some trepidation for me because comic fans aren't like movie fans. Comic fans can buy or maybe not buy a book where Captain America is Sam Wilson and Steve Rogers is off doing other adventures, not as Captain America. I don't know of Moon stuff, all kinds of different stuff. He's old, he's young, is whatever. I don't know if movie fans are there yet. it seems to me any talk of Chris Evans' Captain America right now has to be tabled

until Sam has had a chance to try on the suit and the shield and see how it works. Because if not, the cap that grabbed Mionere and endgame and went to battle against Thanos. I know you guys hate Thanos, so I'm going to say it the right way, Thanos, is the Captain America that a lot of people are going to pine for. And I keep saying, the MCU is getting very comic bookie. It wasn't before.

It really wasn't. There weren't cosmic entities for a long time until the Guardians came around. We weren't juxtaposing street-level heroes with these big world-ending threats. We hadn't got there yet. But the more story we get, especially when we get, get into the world of the eternals, especially when we get into, you know, Shang Shi

and the rest of these things, we keep expanding things, the more the interconnectivity of this stuff and the comic bookie elements of it are going to come into play. This is going to become like different volumes and different issues of a comic pretty soon.

It hadn't been there so much in the past, but it's going to become there now. And so you're going to have characters running at the same time. You're going to have Chris Evans playing Steve Rogers, who is not Captain America, but yet still he really is Captain America. And then you're going to have Sam Wilson being Falcon as Captain America to some people and Captain America himself to others. So I'm excited about both announcements, but I am wondering if it's going to work for the people that don't really know how these things go and aren't really

used to this sort of storytelling. That's an interesting point. The multiverse, too. You know, opening up alt timelines, bring in something like what if, which I'm also so looking forward to, alt histories. Then you open up the multiverse with alternate dimensions, different worlds. I'm very excited about Captain America for and Sam headlining a Captain America movie. I think you're right that if there is some, you know, alt dimension or alt timelines

Steve Peggy story in the works, that should really wait for a while. Obviously, I would love to see Steve back in the story, but maybe old man, Steve, comes back to help or support Sam in some way, though. Even then, I think what you're saying is really astute and right. There will be people out there who as soon as Steve is in the story wants Steve to be at the center of things again.

You know, I was rereading the standoff at Pleasant Hill arc over the weekend. what a stretch for Zemo, goodness. You know, obviously in Captain America, Sam Wilson overall in that, in that comics run, Steve has had the serum extracted, he's old, and then the moment in that aspect of the Pleasant Hill storyline where Steve becomes young again, regains his power, thanks to Kobach and the cube.

and there's that pretty agonizing moment where when he hands the shield, which he had just started using again, back to Sam. And Sam's like, I didn't know if you were going to give this back to me. And you know he's not just speaking on behalf of himself. He's speaking on behalf of what he probably thinks a lot of the, and what the creators probably think of know a lot of the readers are wondering. So that's definitely going to be a delicate variable to juggle. I have a pitch for you.

You want to hear it? Absolutely. This is the next movie. Captain America, colon, we too old for this shit. The movie is old Steve Rogers and Isaiah Bradley going on a geriatric mission together. It's not a job for a young man. It's a job for two grumpy old caps. Two grumpy old caps going on a mission together.

Some place where they have to be clandestine and going there, have to, maybe there's something going on at a senior citizen home. And there's only two guys who can figure it out. And it's Cap and Isaiah. They meet. They have, it's just like a bloody cop structure. They meet. They hash out their differences.

Steve's like, it's not my fault. I was fighting for America. Isaiah's like, you should have, you should have came and stuck up for me throughout the first couple of acts. They don't trust each other. And then boom, maybe Eli gets kidnapped or something like that. And now they got to go, they got to get it. Grumpy old cap.

Captain America, colon, we're too old for this shit. Either time of works. Grumpy old caps, baby. Here's my first question for you. Who is the automobile product placement sponsor for the movie? You know, we've had a lot of Audi over the years. We had some Accura. Face Force used to be more heavily oriented in the BMW direction.

We saw some BMW action in the Shang-Chi trailer, seen some BMW action in the Black Widow trailer. Of course, memorably and iconically, we got Buick in Wanda Vision. So who's the car sponsor for Grompeo old caps? Got to be Lincoln. Steve pull around and they're Lincoln. Beep, beep.

And they get in, you know what I mean? There's got to be a Lincoln. I love a Lincoln. I love a big American car. Back in the day where we worked in the factories, putting the cars together. You know, that's Isaiah Bradley talking about it. Oh, my God.

You should start writing the script. Grumpio. We have our first mailbag question, our first delivery detour with Jomey Adaneron, Lord of the Memes. Jomey. Happy to be here as always, Mal. And say the Academy Award winner before you say his name. Congrats on the Oscar van. Thank you, Mahjee.

Special, special. All right, our first question comes from Facebook. Sean asks, can you give your top three? wish list for Captain America for villains and top three wish lists for MCE heroes to show up in the movie that aren't the Winter Soldier. Oh boy. Okay, so Winter Soldiers

off the table. Which heroes do you want to see and which villains do you want to see in Cap 4? Okay. Let's start with heroes. Then we'll build to villains. This is not for grumpy old caps. This is for Sam's Captain America 4.

I want to see Torres as Falcon. I was waiting for that. all season, he's got the wings, whether he'll end up with some actual bird DNA, thanks to Carl Malice, who can say, but I'm ready for Torres's falcon, eagerly awaiting that. Eli as Patriot, cannot wait for Young Avengers,

can't wait to see how Eli emerges as Patriot inside of the MCU. I'd love to see him in Cap 4. And then, how about Misty Knight? I was going to say a different person from that show, but yeah, Missy Knight would be dope. obviously in the Netflix Marvel shows, you know,

in Luke Cage and in the Defenders, like Iron Fist, bring Misty into the MCU. Misty and Sam have awesome comics history. This would be, this would be wonderful. Let's do it. That would be dope.

Plus another bionic arm and with Misty and Bucky. Another bionic arm. So heroes for me, definitely Torres, even though he's such a weird version of Falcon, I was going to say

bring in a different one of the heroes for hire because if if cap's going to be more of a street level cap then i'd like to see like lukege in there you know what i mean bringing yeah bring lukege in there can i can i introduce another tangent tangent within tangent where are you overall on the on bringing the netflix marvel characters into the mc u i can't wait i can't wait either daredevil was one of my favorite shows god same iron fist was an abomination but dare but daredevil was one of my favorite shows. We watch

Charlie Cox is a great Matt Murdoch. Yeah, he's fantastic. And what other heroes? I don't know. I like to see them bring in like another Avenger, maybe like Jack of Hearts or somebody like that. You know, like somebody that's kind of

off the beaten path that that we don't really know. We haven't seen in the MCU, but that has cool powers to kind of deal with, you know, somebody like that. is tangential to the Cap books because the Captain America himself

doesn't have a particularly interesting Rose Gallery or lists of like assist characters, but there are by way of him being sort of the leader of the Avengers, people that pop in and out of his books all the time. So, yeah, I'd be interested in seeing Jacka Hart's. Jackal Hart's is a weird, cool character.

What about villains? Which villains do you want to see? Do you want them to be people from this show or new characters? A couple of people from this show, then one new character. In the Falcon Numerous Social Comic, I loved this villain, The Natural. He was, I don't know if people know him, he was a kid who

was working with Hydra, who had obsessed about Captain America's entire life, and he was just handing Sam and Bucky their asses. He was just a cool character. They go to his parents' house, and his parents have nothing but Captain America memorabilia

all over the place. And, you know, he's like a young killer. And I love the character. I love almost like Elijah Woods character in Sin City, how he looked all regular and unassuming, but he was like evil and deadly and all of that stuff like that. So I also would like to get more of the power broker because I don't think that Sharon's actually the power broker.

I think she is the power broker, but when she made that call, she was definitely calling to somebody who, was an authority figure over her. Interesting. Oh, I definitely believe that. Someone who's an authority figure over her or maybe a partner at Powerbroker Inc. Because I can see that, you know, building toward, and Charles was mentioning this last

week, Powerbroker Inc. Again, very much of a piece of the themes of institutions and ideas as villains. It would be, to me, it would be strange if they built up Sharon's return arc and then had her, like, reporting up the chain to someone else. I feel as if. Partners may, I'll give you that. Partners may be more to the point, but I feel is,

I don't know if it's Val. I don't think it's foul. Justin Hammer? That's TD's favorite theory. To just, could be Justin Hammer. Once again, we're doing it again.

We said we weren't going to do it, but we're doing it. I said that I thought it was Nick Fury. But whoever that person on the phone is, I like to bring them in. And nuke. I think, I think nuke could be,

they kind of did nuke in the, in a TV series, like a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, but I feel like Newk could be... That would be great. A perfectly good villain for Captain America. Good pathway to Weapon Plus, too.

Exactly. The same thing. So, Newk. Yeah. Oh, I love that. That's a great one. I hope that happens now. That would be awesome.

Yeah. That's a great call. That's a great call. And that's a way to kind of get the thing in it. Look, if they're going to... I don't know where the Netflix shows stand in the continuity. They haven't really...

ever really said. I remember when Daredevil first came out, they were talking about the incident, which of course was the Chitari attack on New York. But other than that, they really never crossed over into what went on in the MCU in those shows. So I don't know if the characters all used up

or if he has some bandwidth left. I have that same Netflix continuity question with one of my picks, because I've mentioned this a few times this season. I'm holding on. I really want Carl Malice to enter into this story. in the in the, in the, in the, uh, in the, uh, in the, uh, could, and likely would connect to a powerbroker anchor larger power broker story, whether that would be the Carl Malice we saw in Jessica Jones or a

new MCU specific version who can say, obviously, you know, that that would just be wonderful. I, I, I guess I'll put Sharon's power broker in as a villain, I hope, returned so that we can better understand what's going on there. I think that, that gets to the question of, like how many places people can be at once, because I assume whether it's in secret invasion or armor wars, we'll learn much more about Sharon, probably long before we see Cap 4, so maybe that pick wouldn't make as much sense. Come Cap 4, who knows?

Similarly, I'll pick Zemo because I just can't get enough, but I also think that we'll likely see Zemo much sooner than that, whether it's around the Thunderbolts or something else. I'll go with, as a final villain pick here, How about Serpent Society? Oh, wow. Let's get them all in the mix. Viper.

Bring in Diamond back for some spice there. I think that would be super weird, but probably really fun. Yeah. Yeah, Charles was talking about Leviathan, you know, with Val coming in, Leviathan maybe being the thing. And that could be something that, and who knows what we'll see from Leviathan in the Black Widow movie. You know what I mean?

Right. So he was thinking of Leviathan, which was a good call by him, I felt like. Yeah, that would be great. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows Winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need Weather Tech floor liners in the summer

unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer.

You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. This episode is brought to you by Nass Energy. Every ounce of dirt, sweat, and gears, every checkered flag and trophy raised, every lap, every race, every hard-bought place. They're all jammed inside every can of Nass energy, high-performance energy for burning the midnight oil in the garage, and pedal to the metal human horsepower for the streets. go ahead, crack open a can of Nas energy and get after it. Ready for some season awards?

Let's do it. Number one, season MVP. Who's your season MVP? It can be a person, it can be a plot line, it can be a theme and idea, anything. What's your MVP? John Walker. John Walker is the season MVP. Sam was the most inspiring part.

Bucky was the most human part. John Walker was the most compelling thing. part of the season. Now, I would rate this as a Steph Curry MVP from like 2017 or 2016, the year that they, he was the season MVP, but then they lost in the finals. I can't remember which year that was. Might have been 17, 18. I can't remember which year that was the year before Kevin Durant got there. Maybe it was 16, 17. They lost in the finals. He lost in the finals. John Walker lost in the season finale here. He lost in the finals. But he already had the hardware. in your mind.

But as far as what he did in this series, to me, he was the MVP. He was, Wyatt Russell brought it the entire time. It was amazing. And it was really fantastic and amazing stuff from him. So obviously your MVP, you wanted to be Sam, but to me, Sam wins the Walter Payton Man of the Year award. that's like that that's that like that's that's what he that's what he wins you know i love it okay i'm going with the actually the same the same pick i had for my midseason awards MVP and i feel

even more strongly about it now sam and bucky's bond which was one of the things that really really really really works for me over the course of the season and actually i invested in more and cared about more episode after episode. So I felt like the progression of that storyline inside of a TV show really succeeded. And it actually, it was so beautiful in the finale to see how their bonds had grown that it kind of changed the way I thought about the beginning of the show. Because I think, you know, I like a lot of people in the first episode, you know, which I enjoyed, kind of couldn't shake this.

Why are the two characters who the show is named after and marketed around not together? Wanted to see them together right away. But now, in retrospect, I think that was like an incredibly smart choice because really understanding who they each were and are as people

and where they were in their lives at that point and then watching them move forward, both as individuals and together, there's this kind of like exponentially potent effect. Really in every aspect of the story, whether it was the more human moments, the action sequences, you know, seeing something like how clumsy they were fighting together atop the semi-trucks in the second episode,

arguing, you know, about what they're assessing in the field, can't get on the same page, don't really want to be on the same page. There's a lot of confusion, a lot of resentment. And then where they end up and how kind of fluid and natural and organic it felt to get there, like the conversation that they have in the fifth episode the do the work exchange. You know, I had wanted a scene like that all season

and I was like, why are we waiting for this? And then it's like, oh, of course that's the right moment for it because they have to work to get there with each other. And in the finale, like the final sequence in the finale, and again, like everything I said about the finale before, I thought that everything was Sam, everything was Sam and Isaiah and Sam and Buckie in the finale was really strong and really moving.

And the final sequence down in Louisiana, on and on is playing. And Bucky's there. And he brought a cake. And he's playing with Sam's nephews. And they're hanging off his Vipranian arm. And he and Sarah are laughing and joking. And then we get that moment where Bucky and Sam look out at the water and the sunset.

And I was just like so touched by seeing them together like that. And of course, it's amplified by something like, Bucky calling Sam Cap, right? And the pride that they feel in each other and what they're building together and working toward together. But just like looking out at the sun like that, it made me think of what Bucky had said in his therapy session in the first episode about how he only had that one moment of calm. And then something he said later about like the reason that he was so torn up about Sam handing over the shield was because he felt like that was like his family. That was his purpose and what did he have? And then you see them together there. And it's like, that's their family. like all of them together like that. And that's their moment of calm, looking out at the sun and just being comfortable with themselves and with each other. And like what that said about building,

because it's not always easy, right? But building, building trust with each other, building friendship, building community. I just love that. Like one of my favorite themes in any fantasy story is that idea of like the family you choose is something Jason and I used to talk about all the time on binge mode. I just love that.

And that was just like honestly really touched me. I thought that was great. So that's my pick. Makes a lot of sense. Like it, typically when people start looking out over the water, I don't like shit like that. But it worked for them. And they've come a long way, man. And I also love to see mutual friends become friends.

You know, when you got that guy in the middle and then that guy's gone for whatever reason and you guys find out that you have a friendship. I love when that happens in real life. I talked about that on The Midnight Boys. And I like it. It's dope. It's dope. But I can see your pick as well.

Yeah, that's great. And to that point that you just made, like I think also I'd love that in that meta sense, like for us as viewers, too, you know, phases one through three MCU experiences that we shared. And then what's the path forward together? And that's like the same journey that Sam and Buck you were on. So I love that.

Okay. Next. Best episode. And if you should feel so inclined in the process of picking your best episode, awarding your best episode, can rank all six top to bottom. Oh, okay, this is easy. So I'm going to go

5, 4, 3, 2, 6, 1. Because to me, like those got, like one was the worst. I didn't like the first episode that much. Six was the second worst. And then after that, they kept getting better until the end.

I've got 5-4-3-2-1-6. Oh, okay. We have the same bottom two and the same, you know, middle progression. Yes, I thought the season improved every single episode and then the finale was my least favorite. But again, love the season overall. Five was just exceptional. It really was. And that was, you know, that's an interesting thing to mention quickly.

Like, this isn't about theorizing, obviously, but just to the larger point from earlier about expectations, fan expectations. and then whether the show can deliver. Five was so hyped. Yeah, Spellman, more. Everyone talking about how that episode was the episode. That was going to be the culmination of the themes where so much of the heart of the show really coalesced.

That, like, not only to make an episode of TV that good, but to know that everybody was out there waiting for it and then to deliver on it, it's really hard to do. So that makes it even more of an achievement, really. Just truth was just incredible. All right. Number three, favorite moment from the season? Favorite moment from the season.

Let me think. Could be a collection of moments, you know, take it any way you want. I would say my favorite moment is the training montage. Really? Yeah. Oh, my God. Why? That's so funny.

I love that. First of all, I just like a training montage, man. I dig it. But the training montage to me was Sam. finally sacking up and getting to work. He's doing all kinds of crazy flips. He is going to fight a battle. He is going to get dirty.

He is about to get in it. And we're seeing what it is that he has to do. Like I said on the Midnight Boys, he wasn't training in Avengers compound with Star Tech. It was a man in his flips. That's what he was doing. And so I just liked that part of, watching him become

uh watching him become Captain America just seeing what it was going to look like for him to become Captain America. A lot of great moments in the series. A lot of fantastic moments. Shout out to Zemo dancing. Shout out to the Snyder cut of Zemo dancing.

The fight scene, um, with, uh, with the, the, the fight scene in the last episode. Shout out to the fight scene between Sam Buck and Zemo.

Um, it's a lot of this, A lot of stuff. Shout out to the Dora Melage and the fight scene inside of the apartment where, you know, they break John Walker's pride, you know, shout out to all of those things. But to me, my favorite moment was probably the training montage. I thought they made a training montage look cool. I love it.

Incredible pick. We'll return to some of those other moments you just mentioned when we get to some of our other categories. So I'm going to go with specifically. Sam visiting Isaiah in Baltimore and then taking Isaiah and Eli to the Captain America exhibit at the Smithsonian in the finale. More broadly, every Sam and Isaiah scene. Just absolutely incredible. tremendous performance from Carl Lombly across the season. And I thought those scenes were so powerful and elemental to the show's intention and mission. Beautiful. I mean, you and Charles spoke beautifully about the, Smithsonian sequence on Midnight Boys. Everyone should check that out if they haven't. It's just amazing.

Amazing to see the way that Isaiah reached out for Eli and the way that they were holding hands walking up to seeing the statue, seeing the plaque, seeing the entire exhibit, and Sam saying, now they'll never forget what you did for this country, never. And Isaiah embracing him is so, so, so beautiful. But again, every moment that they shared it across episodes

two, five, and six just thought were tremendous. I have those moments every day because I talk to my dad every day. So it's me, so me picking up and talking to my dad, my dad going, you kids don't know. Okay, dad, have a good day. I know, I don't know nothing about how the world works and what I should be doing and I'm doing the wrong thing. But I'm going to go play some Star Wars Battlefront.

You sit over there. I love you. I'm going to send you something nice to eat. But no, it was really an important part of this series, man. Turkish delight. Oh, God. My dad would love a Turkish delight. He likes things like that.

Turkish delight, not great. But no, that part of it, like, I'm so glad they got to bring truth into the Marvel, into the Marvel Cinematic Universe. It was really, really well done. Shout out to the showrunners, Malcolm Spelman. Incredible. Number four. Most compelling villain or antagonist of the season.

Got a few different villains or adversaries in the mix. Zimo, Walker, Sharon, Carly and the Flag Smashers, Val, potentially, no shortage of the GRC, no shortage of options. Who's your pick? It's got to be John, right? Because I said John was the most compelling

compelling character earlier because John is, to me, the danger of Captain America. Captain America is only not dangerous because he's Steve Rogers, or in this case, Sam Wilson. But Captain America could easily be a very, very dangerous figure. Okay.

The nation's top policeman, essentially top soldier, who takes unilateral action, does things based on his set of values, makes decisions that affect millions, billions, trillions of people based upon his set of values. If the wrong guy has that power, that guy could be a lethal entity to society. Now, we are lucky that that guy was. Steve Rogers, someone who was the best of us. It's almost like a situation that if, if KelleL's ship from Krypton lands in the middle of a skinhead bunker, we got problems on our hands, right?

A lot of these heroes are about luck and the circumstances. But sometimes we aren't so lucky in the real world, and sometimes we aren't so lucky in the comic world. And John Walker was somebody who had a lot of problems that didn't have any outlet to really deal with them. The government just kept giving him more and more responsibility and very little humanity. So when it came time for him to give humanity, he didn't have a reserve. He didn't have any to give back out. And hopefully throughout his one episode arc, he learned about that, but it showed you how dangerous a misguided Captain America could be. And that, to me, reaffirmed in this series what it is that we, in this universe, shall say,

what it is that we need from Captain America. We saw what we don't need. I totally agree. I mean, I think that the impact in episode five, again, of the Walker hearing sequence and everything that is tied up in him saying, you built me and I am Captain America and connecting a moment like that and a comment like that back to, say, Zemo's speech about supremacist ideals

and what John and what the show are offering as commentary there in terms of what it can mean to embody America to be Captain America in all of the worst ways. Really impactful and trenchant, I think. I'm going to pick Zemo for this, for most compelling villain, because I think the show was humming at a different frequency when he was a main part of it in episodes three and four.

You are fucking amazingly right. It was just special. When he was doing his thing and Daniel Buell, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off, Mal. But you couldn't be more right. You couldn't be more right. Like when he was really in the mix, you almost want to see those three guys get the road together again.

Like when he was really in the mix, it was really- Go back to the garage, pick another car, pick another bit of outerware. Really cooking, really cooking. Yeah, he was just kind of magnetic in every single scene that he's in. And I think that the reason that that performance and his inclusion in the season stands out to me so much now that we've completed the season is because, you know, not to be too harsh to the Carly Flag Smasher plot,

I think we agree that was not successful. But that lack of success is really amplified when you're viewing things through the Zemo lens and seeing what it can look like and how it can work. when a villain or an antagonist is able to kind of bring you into their web of logic. Like, one of the things that I love about Zemo, this was true in Civil War, it was very true here. And I think the ability to maintain this with his character as the kind of vibe of his character morphed from super stern and glom and serious to, you know, I'm just out like, cutting it up on the dance floor in Madrepoor,

admiring the art, is that you find yourself drawn in, and then you have this moment of almost like horror when you realize how much you like watching Zemo, right? And it's something that I ask myself a lot this season. Why do we all love Zemo so much, but we have all of these well-actuallys about all of these other characters? I have an answer for that.

Please. go ahead. Because he was activated. So Zemo was definitely probably doing some nasty stuff with the Sarkovian special ops team that he was with. And we're probably going to learn way more about his nefarious history

and all that stuff like that. But if the Avengers don't go into Sarkovia and fuck it up trying to take down Ultron, then he's probably chilling with his family in retirement, burying his secrets or something like that. And this has to do with every single character.

These characters are only as good as their motivations. They're only as good as their motivations. The reason why Doom makes for such a great hero slash anti-hero in the Marvel universe, in the Marvel Comics is because he's essentially fighting to get his mother's soul out of hell. And you start to ask yourself, well, what wouldn't you do to get your mother's soul out of hell? So when we first met Zemo, we met him as a really secondary, almost, a side villain, but we understood that he was actually, actually in pain. And it's relieving

in a small way to see that he's gotten over it. He hasn't obviously gotten over it who gets over something like that, but to see that he's moved past it. And remember, when you see Zemo dancing, in my mind, it jumps back to Black Panther stopping him from killing himself. And especially at a point where people are super depressed and all of that, you know, we, where our minds are arrested with so much stuff going around us, to see Zemo cut loose after what happens to him, it's a human thing to empathize with someone who's been through that, even if they're doing horrible things. Now, what he does, when he does stuff like blow up the flag smashers or, which it seemed

kind of harsh to those guys, but when he does stuff like blow up the flag smashers or even try to kill people with building super soldiers, you're thinking, well, these people are the people who, like, killed his family. So he's almost doing it for the same reason that John Wickett is. So it's hard to kind of, like, you know, hate him totally. And he's played with a lot of charm by Daniel Brew. He definitely is. That is really interesting. And it, I think, highlights, again, why Zemo works so well and the flag smashers don't. Because if you, in theory,

in theory at least, what you just described about Zemo should apply to the flag smashers. That idea of they were activated. But there are these constant moments where Carly and the group at large, but particularly

Carly, undermine the theoretical sanctity of that pursuit. I was struck by something like the moment where Carly and Sharon are facing down underground. This isn't a side that is not germane to the current discussion point, but I just have to say this. I don't understand how we're supposed to accept that Sam and Bucky, but really Sam, don't know that Sharon is the power broker when Carly, Sharon, Boutrock are all saying it out loud. And Sam is two feet away around the corner with surveillance tech.

So powerful, he was able to look at a helicopter for two seconds and figure out who had prior flight training. Who was a pilot? Ayla. They were able to look in there and figure out who was a pilot. Like, I didn't even think, we haven't even talked about that. It's like, yo, who in here has a, hey, look, Red Wing, look in there. Tell me who in there has a Pornhub account. It was like, what?

Really? Red Wing got it like that? Oh, God. Okay. Yeah. Incredible. Incredible. But then, so in that exchange, Carly says to Sharon,

you wanted to control a world that hurt you, but I wanted to change it. Now, that line could fit Zemo to a T, but for Carly, the way that it all crumbles is that she doesn't realize that she's describing herself, that she's projecting in full when she's attempting to diminish her opponent.

Now, I think in many ways, a villain who doesn't see themselves clearly is like quintessential text and very compelling. But with Carly and the flag smashers more generally, but again, Carly in particular,

moment after moment where it just became too hard to believe that Sam or anyone else would be able to say, I'm not going to fight you. I did like the Steve Rogers call back there with I'm not going to fight you

back to Winter Soldier Bucky. But Sam is ultimately able through his heart, his compassion, his conviction, his desire to help other people, his broadcast speech, to thwart the patch act and halt the GRC. If you run through everything that Carly does across the season,

I think that it just becomes impossible to defend the character. And then that gets to larger, again, to your point from earlier, about kind of how are these things messaged and communicated and what do we expect? I think that in hindsight, the heavy discussion around how central the idea of the villain who has a point was to the show and the approach there,

while I love that in general, I think that hurt here with Carly and the flag smashers because it's hard at a certain point to keep coming back to that when Carly has blown up the GRC depot, said she's going to do it again if they don't meet her demands,

said she's going to kill Captain America, threaten Sam. sister who is not a part of this, says that, not only says to John that Lamar didn't matter, but think back again to episode four where she tells Sam, the only reason she's not going to kill him is because his death

would be meaningless. Attacks the GRC, takes everybody hostage, tells her own followers that they're just going to kill them, lights the truck on fire to distract Bucky. Like, this is not a person that we should be rooting for. I just find that to be like a very tough sell.

And when killmonger is supposed to be the character who Carly and the Flag Smashers are modeled after, that's just really tough to pull off. Because Kilmonger is indelible, and Carly is not. Well, yeah, and it's also tough if they had to remove, like if there was a virus that had been released and we had to watch Mama Donia like melt away, then maybe it's easier to sell.

The genius thing about Civil War and Zemo was, the recording on his cell phone. Like, the recording on his cell phone was gut-wrenching. You listened to it over and over and over again until you realize he's listening to ghosts. He's listening to the voices and emotions of dead people, and he's haunted by it. And then you go, shit, man, well, this guy's an asshole,

but what would I do? You know what I mean? And we just never get that moment with the flashmasters. What we get them, what we get is them telling, us how downtrodden they are and how desperate they are. But we never really get them showing us because, as we all suspect, there was a whole chunk of it that they had to rip out. I don't know how they were supposed to get there and what they were supposed to do, but

at the same time, and also there was points where it seemed like she liked fucking people up. Every once in a while, she flash a smile. And I know she was becoming radicalized, but it seemed like she got there pretty quick. you know what I mean and some great actor by Aaron Kellerman but I just feel like the character the characters overall

they were just a little too sparse it just wasn't enough there you know I really wanted the other Flag Smashers to rebel against her and I thought we were going to get it there was that one moment after she says they'll just kill the hostages and she says one world and they don't say one people else like this is it

because they have to realize and that's another reason why blowing those four people up fucking sucks because they weren't completely sold on what it was that she was doing. So blowing them up, if they're actually blown up, blowing them up. Zemos Butler, boy. It was a lot of shit that was harsh. Like you said, the guy who got the mercury to the face, that's harsh. That was a rough way to go.

Very tough one. Very, very, very tough one. I thought the whole Zemos Butler blowing up the Flag Smashers sequence was really bizarre. More Zemo, though, I can't wait. Jomey, on the Zemo front. We have a very quick and fun little Zemo delivery detour here, don't we? Oh, we really do. This is from Facebook.

Jan asks, So is Zemo's graduation from Machiavelli to mid-19th century German and Russian naturalism and romanticism, like Alexander von Humboldt's Fuse of Nature and a collection of Alexander Pushkin's poetry? Supposed to suggest character development, be a distractor to his jailers that he's, reading safe things or just a kick-ass easter egg for us language and literature nerds. I just want to applaud this question. Yeah, you know what? We know when you're writing into the show, Elon Musk, you don't have to try to like act like you.

Like we know even the way, look, man, don't, don't look, what's this person's name? Jan. This is a great question from Jan. Jan, let me tell you something real quick, Jan. Jane, let me holler at you. Don't come here with that. Okay? Like, Jan, I love you.

Thank you for listening to the ringer verse. Jan, I didn't wake up wanting to feel dumb on a Monday. Talking about all of this stuff. I remember they gave me war in peace in high school. Like, what am I going to read this? I was like, I don't care enough about the war or the peace to read this whole fucking thing. I'm not reading this. I'm going to go read Ultimate Carnage, the series.

I'm not reading this whole thing. Get this shit out of my, get this out of my face. Jan coming through here with all kinds of different. Jan, cool it. Love the question now. I'm going the other way. Thank you, Jan. And all the literary scholars out there,

I love this because I did think in that very brief, all too fleeting glimpse of Zemo in his cell in the raft, we see he's holding a book. And then there are a couple books on his shelf next to the radio that he's listening to. And I thought, boy, I wonder what those, tomes are. I wonder how Zemo is nurturing its mind and his soul. I wonder what the library offerings are at the raft. I just want to thank Jan for identifying the text for us. Wonderful stuff from Jan.

More broadly, I will say, this is something that I love doing. I love looking for the title of a book in a scene. Did you, Van, did you watch Lost? Were you a lost person? Yeah, I watched it when it was watchable. I used to any book that appeared in a scene, like certainly some of them were moreover. Like, you know, I love Watership Down, one of my all-time favorites every time Sawyer's reading. I was like, I got to go reread Watership Down. You know, Jacob sitting on the bench reading, Flannery O'Connor, everything that rises must converge. Got to go get that. Look for clues inside of that text to tell me how lost is going to wrap up. Selman Rushdie, Haran in the Sea of Stories. got to go read that, see if I could deduce where this is heading.

Wow. Purchased our mutual friend, Dickens, but like Desmond, have not read it yet, holding on to it for the end. Wow. By the way, just to let people know, I love reading, I love fiction, but some of these books that, like, everybody is supposed to read and you read in all of these books and you're in the middle of this and you're transported to the coldest winter in Russia in 1913, I'll be like, I don't really want to go there.

I don't want to go to the coldest winter in Russia in 1913. And if understanding the coldest winter in Russia in 1913 is going to help me understand the Falcon and the Winter Soldier, well, guess fucking what, now, I'm going to miss that part. Like, I get it. You know, and I love all the great works of literature. The other stuff that my homies used to get on me about reading, you know, like, fan, man, what's you reading the Great Gaspic for? We're trying to get on some hoes. Like, all of that, you know, I get it.

But, no. Great Gatsby, great book. Great book. F. Scarfins Gerald nailed it, yeah. But something that every, F.Carpers, Gerald, nailed it. He killed it. It's talking about it. It's a panger.

F. Scott was in his bag. He was in his bag. Oh, my God. That was incredible. That was remarkable. Honestly, if Zima really wanted to kill some time at the raft, he would have ordered the Animorph series. 60 books.

You think Avatar was, you know, a soft landing for teens. Oh, my God. animal's messed me up in the covers. You see the Photoshop? Just haunting. I used to study those closely when I was a kid. You should have checked those out. Okay.

Favorite fight. Favorite fight of the season. So many action sequences, show them so many set pieces, which was your favorite? I go Sam Buck, John Walker, just because I'm always looking for them to show how Sam's going to use his wings and how he's going to use his,

whatever, whatever in battle. I go Sam book, John Walker, but the Dora Melage fight scene is a close, close, close second. Those are my two also, but in reverse order. I'm going with the Dora as my pick because not only was it a really cool fight, you know, the shield kick at the end,

just tremendous stuff, but it was a fight in which, and this is actually, this is really hard to do in an action sequence. Every single character had a notable moment that felt true to their characters. Like, obviously, Walker's just feeble and pathetic. They weren't even super soldiers, pout at the end,

couldn't be more emblematic for where he was at that moment in time. I-O-and-Dora, dominant, in command, in control, absolutely dusting everybody else in the room. Sam, trying to help, trying to play peacemaker. Bucky, that great moment where Bucky's like, looking strong, John, just like, hailing it from the back was really amazing. The sequence with Bucky and the arm, I thought was really interesting because, again,

in addition to just being a, like, kind of shocking, interesting little moment inside the sequence of the fight and the choreography of the fight, it makes you think about how the characters think about trust. And then Zemo just patiently waiting in the shadows and sneaking away through the tunnel in the bathroom. You're absolutely right about that scene, by the way. And it tells you so much about the Wakandans that they put a fail safe in the zone. Oh, my God. This is broadly a celebration, but I have to nominate here my least favorite fight of the season, which was Sam versus

Bathtrock in the finale. It sucked. We already got Sam Bathtrock in the first episode, and that was really fun and cool. So this not only didn't live up to that, but it was so clearly modeled off of the Steve Batrock fight sequence on the Lemurian Star and Winter Soldier, which is one of like the most iconic fight sequences in the MCU. You can't model something against that and then not deliver. I will just personally never, never recover from a desk chair, a piece of office furniture knocking the shield, the vibranium shield out of the year. Here's my thing with that. I call this right, I would call this writing yourself into handcuffs. Let's say you're watching a Superman movie.

The first scene of the Superman movie or the first movie of Superman, I'll take the actual Superman run. Superman, Superman, 2, Superman returns. Okay. And the first Superman movie, which people know that Superman returns, the Brian Singer movie, it's technically a sequel to Superman 2. That's how much he fucked up Superman.

He thought he was continuing the story. Okay, whatever. So the first Superman, Superman walks into Lex's lair, Lex opens a box of kryptonite, and he freaks out. He, Superman freaks out. He goes, oh, my God, it's Kryptonite. I'm very upset about it. And he's so scared and powerless that Lex walks over to him, puts the kryptonite necklace onto the most powerful being in the universe's neck, and then pushes him into the water. bye-bye, you're dead until

Tesmacher jumps in, takes it off of his neck. Okay, cool. We believe that two movies later, Superman is going to get under a big, huge rock filled with kryptonite. We're talking tons and tons of kryptonite.

And throw it into space. It just doesn't make any sense. You've written yourself into cryptos here. You can't do those two things. The nerds and the thing are going to be like, now they did that with the fight on the Lamarian Star. The reason why is because Rogers is a super soldier.

Batroc is not, right? But he is going to lose that fight to Steve Rogers, but he is such a skilled combatant, such a skilled combatant that he actually gives Steve a little something to think about. Now, what that means is that there's no way that Sam can deal with him hand to hand. So the fight itself is not going to.

to be good unless we're to believe that Sam in some way is on that same level and we know he's not because fucking Crossbone kicked his ass because fucking Ant Man kicked his ass because he's been getting his ass kicked for as long as he's been in the MCU. So to me as soon as they square off, I look at that scene and I go, if Sam wins his fight is bullshit. The first thing I said, so what are they going to do? What's going to be the out that they're going to give him? Now if we now, And it's the last thing I say on it. Now, if something happens at the beginning of the Captain America 4 movie and we learned that Taskmaster's been training Sam for like

X amount of years or something, then that's one thing, but they ain't done that yet. You know, so that was my thing. That's interesting. I did broadly across the action sequences in the finale like the way that Sam incorporated his tech. And like, I think that that actually just across the storytelling. universe is interesting because it makes me think of Tony. And even though Sam is, you know, directly associated with Steve in the Captain America stories and is Captain America, moments where he's

using his thruster the way Tony uses his repulsor, things like that, like he's thoughtful and he's crafty and tactical. But, you know, you have something like Bach's saying, here, the robes don't make the monk, which is a call, felt to me like a callback to when he says to Steve, I thought you were more than just a shield. And of course, Steve puts down the shield. Sam is using the shield. But again, it's like, I just, I don't understand how a piece of office furniture, like a desk chair that looked like it belonged to a local elementary school, knocked the shield out of the air.

That's just not a thing that should have happened. What was your favorite type of desk when you were in school? Did you like the desk where you could just put your stuff into it? Or did you like the desk where you could open up the top of it and then put your stuff into it? Because there was two different types. One desk has a little thing under it and you can just put your books into it. That one. And then I like that one better because I could hide more shit in there. Exactly. Absolutely. Exactly. I didn't have to lift it up. You know what I mean?

When I wanted to like read Spider-Man or something like that. Yes. I used to, I have a vivid memory of not at, not at regular school, but actually at Hebrew school where we had the same type of desks holding my copy of the Fellowship of the Ring in a little opening of my desk and reading it when I was supposed to be paying attention. Such bad students. We have a few more to get to. So best cameo. Couple, couple contenders here, though. I think this one's a pretty clear winner. I'm curious to see your pick.

Best cameo. I got to go with Val. Has to be. It's got to be Val. I didn't see it coming. I hadn't heard anything. Did you know? No, I was shocked.

I gasped out loud. And when I saw the hills click clack and I'm like, oh, they're getting a hero's interest. Look at this beat. I thought it was Black Widow for a second. like for one second but I know she's supposed to be dead but I don't know what's going to happen

in her movie or whatever whatever I thought it was Black Widow makes absolutely no logical sense that it would be a black widow so I'm sorry guys but yeah so when I saw her I was like interesting I didn't know and it wasn't until she said her name

that I knew who she was so yeah it was definitely her that was just amazing incredible performance in episodes 5 and 6 from from JLD love the ongoing tradition of the MCU turning to comedic actors for these roles. Always adds a nice little spark.

At the moment in the finale where she's like, what is he doing in there? When John is taking so long to put on a new suit, it was just so funny. She's incredible. It did make me think the fact that both of her scenes in the fifth and sixth episodes were set in the in the senatorial chambers, the courthouse, wherever they were that same building. It made me think of the final season of ballers and how much of that season. was set in the airline hanger, which always gave me the impression that they had like 18 total hours with Dwayne Johnson. This is the vibe I got here. It's like you've got 45 minutes with JLD,

film it all in one place. You watched Ballers? Every second, yeah. I stuck with it until the end. I have this still largely intact belief that Ballers has predicted the NFL for a couple years in a row now. Like the Patrick Mahomes contract, all of it. I mean, not a good show. It's going to be clear. Wait, wait. It was good for the first season. And then and then ballers just went, yo, man. Ballers, colon, yo man.

Fuck it. Really, that's what ended up happening with the show. But no, cool. No, I didn't get past. And, you know, I love John David and all that. You know what I mean? But I didn't get past it. But yeah, okay, cool.

Ballers. Wow. Yeah. It's quite an experience to be one of three people alive. watching the entire run of that show. Next, and I should apologize as I float this to you, based on what you said earlier about the way that the Easter eggs have penetrated every aspect of your life.

But most intriguing Easter egg, it can be one that ended up feeling like it panned out in full. It can be one that you're still wondering about now. What was the Easter egg over the course of this season, big or small? So one Easter egg that I thought was an Easterer that turns out. to have not been an Easter egg is I thought that I saw the exignia on the front of that. That apparently is not that, right? That apparently is like a street sign that's in that.

By the way, they got to know that we were going to think that. Because I went to look that up after and that's that same street sign exists all over the place. I'm like, I thought there were mutants in there. I really do. I thought that the kids were mutants and stuff. It made me look like a fool. Does Madrepoor account as an Easterer? I think it does.

Yeah. And so that's what I would say would be my favorite Easter A, because going to Madrippor means we're expanding, we're expanding the world to a different, dragony, dark side of the Marvel cinematic universe to where that's kind of the crease in which the mutants and all these other storylines exist. So I'd say Madrapur for me. I love that.

I'm going to pick something specific in Madrepoor for my pick. Oh, nice. which is the glimpse that we got of the neon sign for Princess Bar, including the arrow, the arrow pointing to the right of our screens. As I mentioned this before, but, you know, even amid the once again frenzied X-Men theorizing that we all enjoyed and then didn't really pay off. And I just, it feels like such a guarantee to me that they'll eventually be here in the MCU.

I think we all agree on that front that I do still like these little winks to the audience. Like this one in particular felt like a stay patient. We know you're going to see that and think of Logan and think of the X-Men. And I loved the little arrow in particular because like, you know, I mentioned this before, but it reminded me of in Spider-Man, far from home, the shot of that subway sign, the signage in the city that's pointing with the arrows like one, two, three, four question mark, like what's coming in phase four with the arrows to stay tuned. This kind of felt like that, like stay tuned for Logan. So I liked that one a lot, but Madreport in general, certainly.

Madreport's great. Wolverine is great. Who are your top three Wolverines to play in his next face? Who you think will be Wolverine? Really, there's no top three. I can't think anybody who can do it. I have no idea. Yeah, that's a hard one.

Tom Hardy, maybe. You know what? Actually, you know what? I don't care about who will play as Wolverine is. I care about one thing. just make sure that Wolverine gets a crass course in martial arts training this time. I know that we want to portray Wolverine as a guy

that's a brawler with some knives on his hands, but the dude is agile. You know, they bring Hugh Jackman in there, Wolverine all of a sudden, 6'2-250 pure muscle. I just want to see a comic actor, accurate portrayal of him, if possible. We're not going to get a 5'3 guy to play Wolverine. I get it.

But, like, just I want to see him. do at least one flip. This motherfucker didn't flip for like 10 movies. I want to see at least one flip from Wolverine, one of the most agile guys in the entire universe. You love flips. You pick the training montage. I like flips.

You don't like flip. Who doesn't like flips? Love flips. What did the guy tell Spider-Man in Far From Home? What do you tell him? Hey, do a flip. People like flips. You know what I mean?

It's true. It's true. Okay. From flips to fashion. Favorite fit of the season? Ooh. I like Bucky's fit. I like the, I like the, you know, the sleeveless show off my middle arm.

Bucky's like a Venice Beach, bro. He's got a, I got a middle arm. You got to see it, so I'm going to cut a sleeve off, you know? Uh-oh. I like Bucky's fit. Bucky always looks so tight. That's sad. That's Sebastian's thin.

He's a smart-looking fella. He's a good-looking fella. Sure is. You're like he's a good-looking fella. Oh, my God. Also, though, a close second. A close second. You know what?

I'm actually going to change it right now. Zemo, when he's fully masked up. This is my pick. Yeah, because as much as I like Buck, that's a hard costume to pull off from the comics to an actual television show, and they did a great job. It's amazing that it worked as well as it did when he actually finally put on the mask. Just in general, I love the outerwear that he's rocking, the fur collar on the coat.

It's quintessential villain look. But when he finally puts the mask on and is walking across the car container, it's just incredible. We do have a mailbag question, a delivery detour here about Bucky, though, and the leather jackets. Jomey, what do we got? This, I love this. This question comes from Duke Silver. At Swanson Limes on Twitter. Where is Bucky coming up with these jackets?

Because this guy's looking to fly in literally every scene. It's a good question. Oh, God. He looks great. I'm blushing. Mow, Mow's having a moment here. I just, he's so handsome. It's so overwhelming.

It really is. It starts at the jaw. Oh, my God. You know? Can I offer, though, a slightly controversial opinion here? Under the general consensus that Bucky looks great, I don't love the leather jackets specifically when it comes to action sequences. That's not a logical tactical outfit.

It just seems too restricting, too tight. What I love is the more casual moments when Bucky's wearing all of his many jackets. And what I particularly loved is how in the finale, no jacket, no gloves, shedding those layers, shedding that cocoon, comfortable being himself. Beautiful. Yeah. I think he had a Henley on. Guys like Bucky, like white dudes like that got like, so here's the thing. Black dudes always look crazy in Henley. You don't look good.

You look like a Brock or Brett. That's not your culture. Stay away in the Henley. Facts. You don't look good in the Henley, dog. You don't. You're not in O-town. Stop it.

But a white, but a white dude of a specific size, like I call it the mid-swole to where you're not swole, right? You're not skinny. You're like, Bucky is. Like, Chris Evans is swalled, right? He pumped up.

Hugh Jackman is swore. Not good Henley's. They're going to do too much for the Henley. But when the Henley feels, just a little loose, but yet the side lines or the pecks, they kind of show out. Bucky's a Henley wearer.

He makes the Henley look good. You know what I mean? You feel like, damn, I wish I could wear the Henley. But if I do, it's going to be a lot of movement. So, like, so, so, so, like, everybody looks great in Henley's. No, no, no, no, everybody. I'm telling you right now, I can not do it.

No, we would not. Of course you could. Pre-pandemic, pre-pandemic I could pull off of Henley. Right now, it's not going to happen. I think Henley is a very flattering cut for almost everyone. I really do. Not me.

I'm going to tell you right now, I'm going to tell you right now that you don't want to see me in a Henley right now. All right. You think I was pregnant. But the reality is like, the reality is that in a serious way, at the end, he literally loosened up. Yeah.

to that like even within his dress like he literally loosened up and it was it was really fun and that care and to your point earlier that character i don't know why they made bucky do work that they didn't make everybody else do in terms of remorse and all of that that character was tortured and really worked for his redemption over the course of going on what seven years now seven years he was like dave chapelle he had to spend like a year in Africa to get it to get all of this stuff back like seven years and so now it's just happening for him so I guess they spare walkers time lined up a little bit I wish we had gotten to actually see more of the conversation between bucky and yori when he finally told him about his son but it was really really sweet to see bucky look through the window into izzie cafe and see yori

absolutely yeah smiling and knowing that he had provided that closure Great stuff. Okay. A couple more. Meme of the season. I think this is another slam-down runaway. Really only one contender here has to be, right? Zima.

Is anything else even in the conversation? Jomey, you're the Lord of the Memes. Is there any other meme contender from the season? Zemo dancing is like instantly iconic. There was the scene where Bucky and Sam are yelling at, I think it's John Walker. John Walker's making a stupid face like he usually is. And it's reminiscent of the lady yelling at the cat meme, you know?

Yeah. But it's the runaway is Zemo dancing. Like they had to, they released the Sino cut. Yeah. An hour of Zmo dancing on Loop. What again? I don't know why we cut it off at a hour. I totally agree.

And that could have been episode seven, right? Just, you know, 58 minutes of Zemo just going. In our hearts, it is, you know. I like Zimo. I know he did some bad stuff, but I like Zimo, man, free Zemo. He's getting out for himself, right? Yeah.

Oh, yeah. He won't be there for long. No, he legitimately seems like a fun dude. You know, when you're not killing his family or being a super soldier, he seems like a cool dude, you know, go out, you know, hey, let's have some, let's have some beer together, you know? Like, let's talk about life.

And he'll throw you some, you know, why it's so cold in Russia in the 1930s, you know what I'm saying? Exactly. It seems like a chill dude. Very troubling to me that his butler went from saying that the champagne wasn't chilled enough to blowing up an armored truck. Just like went from commenting on the food in the galley on the plane to the opening action sequence of heat in 10 minutes. That's concerning.

When you got that Zemo money, you know what I'm saying? You'll do a lot for a check. You feel me? You know, I'll chill the, I'll chill the champagne. I'll blow up some dudes. As long as my bills are paid, I'm square. Don't worry about it. Oh, my God.

Favorite new location. You picking Madripor here? Are you picking something else? Obviously, Madripor. But I just want to think if there are any other, let's kick it around and see if there are any other locations that we really, really, really, really get with. Let me throw out a maybe subtler pick than Madrig. that I found myself gravitating toward after initially picking Madrapore.

This is where I landed. The Wilson family home found in Louisiana. What that setting says about the richness at the heart of this story and the themes and how those themes solidified there. Home, family, moving forward in your own life and in the relationships in your life, love, community. Just beautiful. Obviously, you know, I'm a Bayou boy. I love Louisiana. I love my home state.

We don't put Old Bay in. Well. Like, we don't. But, Van, I'm a Marylander. So I've screamed out loud when I saw the Old Bay. I couldn't believe it. You know how many Oriole bird bobbleheads I have with the bird holding a can of Old Bay? So we got Tonys.

We got Zatarans. We got all kinds of things that we use when we're doing our thing. And no goddamn Old Bay, but whatever. Old Bay is delicious. A sacred spice blend. Well, I'll tell you something about Old Bay. I got some Uts chips. Oh, yeah.

Crap chips? Uts Chips? They're the best. They make with the Old Bay. And, you know, if you can stand the sodium rush, they are some of the best chips you can eat. Very incredible. They taste really good. There's a true story.

My mom mailed me some of those a couple weeks ago. It was really sweet. Oh, did she? Oh, that's amazing. It really tastes good. Like, we did the Wire podcast. And Jamel said that they were good. and then I order some from Amazon

and I went through like two bags and I was like, oh, but that's actually really good because that's also a place of solace to where it's almost like Sam's Fortress of Solitude where he goes back to learn about himself and what's really real and he gets taught by, and I get it. You know what?

I'm going to go with Latvia. When they were in Latvia, Latvia was, yeah, some really cool things happened to Latvia. I think Latvia was where the Dormelage fight took place. I think Latvia was where a lot of this John Walker stuff went down.

So I'm going to pick Lafayah because Madrepoor was the is the obvious answer, but it's just it's too obvious. So I'm going to pick Lafayette. Lavia led to the whole Turkish Delight plot line and your newfound love affair with your favorite new culinary confection. Oh, by the way, I got to be honest

with you. I wasn't trying to diss the Turkish delight. I was just being honest. The reality is that I taste Turkish Delight and this shit was whack but people said that I got the wrong Turkish Delight so I'm gonna try to get the right

Turkish Delight. Okay. I'm gonna try it again. I'm gonna try to Turkish Delight again. I love to, I don't want to insult other cultures. People were very mad about the fact that I didn't like the Turkish delight.

And I've seen some of my mom's Becon Candy, maybe you like it, maybe you don't. But people didn't like so I'm gonna try the different Turkish delight. I gotta be, I gotta get the authentic stuff. You need to get in the right mood for it.

Like you need to either reading the lion, the witch, and the wardrobe, or you need to play Zemo singing a lullaby to the children to hit the eight-year-old child he referred to later as his associate in one of the best moments of the season, you know, Baba Black Sheep, you need the, you need the Zemo soundtrack as an accompaniment, musical accompaniment. Okay, we got two more awards. The Mephisto Award, van, for our favorite fan theory that didn't pan out. So many to choose from. Is there one that you still have a very fond,

the feeling toward, despite it not panning out, one that you wish had, and so you're holding it in your heart? Are you done with all of them? Almost all the ones that painted different people as the power broker ended up becoming kind of paint by numbers because, like, we didn't really have any crazy theories about the power broker.

We had, I think the crazy. easiest power broker theory I heard was from Charles who said it was Jekyll, who was like a little known. Incredible moment from Charles. Just unbelievable stuff from Charles.

He's the best. But that somehow, one that I read was that we were going to come back to Madrepoor and like Wolverine was going to be there. Or that in some way the X-Men would be interesting. introduced in this series either as mutants from Super Soldiers Serum Gone Wrong or that in some way

this would all jump off Weapons Plus, which it still might, but that this was the series that was going to bring us to the X-Men. Because once again, we're mutant addicts. We're mutant addicts. We just we're a mutant. We want to see how they're going to do it. Are we going to see Eli with some mutant growth hormone? Like. Right. The whole. It can happen. There were so many possible pathways. Yeah.

Right. So I think that that probably for me, like just the mutants period. Once again, I'm mistaken the street sign for the exigna. It's the same thing, you know? I think that, again, we're probably still going to get this eventually. So it's not like it's completely null and void, but in terms of the reveal unfolding inside of these six episodes, I really did think we were going to get the Thunderbolts. whether it was from Zemo or from Val, I thought we would get a more overt wink,

possibly even in the stinger of the finale, that that was coming. So that's probably my pick. I also really thought we would see Torres as Falcon, though again, that's one that I'm feeling like, okay, it'll be really meaningful when that does eventually happen. But the Thunderbolt's not materializing in this show

actually really surprised me. I started to think that was like pretty much a lock about midway through. Right. And it seems as if they would want to go ahead and get that started. So whenever we do get our Thunderbolt series, our Thunderbolt movie, whatever, there's less actually narrative work that they have to do. But I guess they have done.

Some of it, you just got to go get John, go get Zemo, a couple of those people. And then, you know, you got your team. Jomey, when we have our final delivery detour of the day, speaking of theories. I love this question. This comes from Jacob Goldman on Twitter. Who do you think Sharon was talking to in the Stinger? and what do you think about her maybe being a scroll? The Sharon's scroll stuff really took off over the weekend.

That's been one of the things in the couple days since the finale that is generating a lot of conversation. Where are you on that, Van? Do you think that Sharon is either a scroll or is in league with the scrolls? Okay, so the fact that she's a scroll gives credence to my Nick Fury thought. So that's the reason why I kind of think that she is. Number one, this sharing thing doesn't make any sense. First of all, even from the beginning,

it doesn't make any sense that Steve did imparted her. That's baffling still. They're going to have to iron that out at some point. That's not able to. It makes absolutely zero sense that Bucky, a killer. All right? Come on.

Come on. He wasn't in killing. control of his own mind. He's a killer. He's an op. He's an op. He killed innocent shield agents who may or may not have been hired as her agents. We're not sure.

Like he killed him. All she did was get a suit and a shield and give it to some people. And she had to leave the country. That makes no sense. Okay. And then number two, her character just on his face is we. It doesn't, it doesn't, something's off. There's something off about Sharon in this.

Her motivations seem off. Her actions seem off. It just doesn't seem like it makes a lot of sense. Her character doesn't make a ton of sense. So it would almost make sense that it was somebody acting as Sharon. And if she is a squirrel and if Nick Fury who, I'm not sure what his relationship with the government is right now, I don't think there really is one. Remember, when we saw Nick. Fury and far from home, he was underground, right?

Like his little group and stuff like that. Right. And that's set after this. That's eight months after the blib. This is six months. So that's still to come, yeah. Right. That's still to come.

So you know that he's got to be getting this tech from somewhere. He's got somebody's got to be bankrolling this. Stark is dead. So I think that there's really a lot of a lot of momentum towards the she's the squirrel. She's a squirrel thing, which would make my Nick Fury being on the other end of that phone call make a little bit more sense. Boy, there's, I think the substance of what she's saying when she's on the call, mere feet away from the room she just exited, the building she just exited. start lining up our buyers. Super soldiers might be off the menu,

but we're about to have full access to government secrets, prototype weapons, you name it, should be something for everyone. The energy behind that comment doesn't totally feel like MCU Nick Fury to me, but I would ultimately still buy them being aligned. I think that if this is a long con with Sharon

that the MCU is playing, she's got to stop murdering so many people. She's just got to stop putting mercury bombs on flag smashers. She shot Bathtrocks. She shot Carly. Now, are those heroes? No, but even so, that's a lot of, that's a lot of murder.

I think that who she on the phone with? Could it be Fury? Maybe Val? Could it be Val? Again, maybe they're aligned, Femforce or Leviathan. Why not just show us, though, if it's Val? Because they've got to nurture the mystery. But yes, I do wish we had seen more with Val.

Especially, that also gets back to the Walker thing, by the way, with Walker working for Val. If we knew clearly where Val's allegiances rested at the moment, that would help us understand where John was at this moment, but we don't, which is an additional kind of perplexing variable. Could Sharon be on the phone with Justin Hammer? Could she be on the phone with Thunderbolt Ross? A lot of different possibilities.

Maybe it's a new character. But why would it be Ross? Ross is entrenched in government operations right now. Is Ross selling weapons on the side? Also watching the raft and enforcing the Sokovia Accord. It would be a very tough sell given the Socovia Accord, Captain America's Civil War history and how that history specifically sparked Sharon's current arc. But I never rule out some sort of side hustle for Thunderball. It's just kind of like one of my only MCU rules.

That would be a strange one. But I think that clearly Sharon's arc is heading either. maybe both, but either toward armor wars or secret invasion. It feels like it could kind of set up either of them actually pretty well if we're patient. I think that the armor wars thing, again, if we look at what she was saying on that phone call about prototype weapons, like the idea of Tony's tech through the government connections falling into enemy hands feels like core armor wars storytelling. And I also really like the idea of Rode and Sharon, being opposing forces in armor wars

because that's kind of like next generation team Tony and team cap even though Sharon's not quite team cap anymore again they have a lot of work to do here kind of no matter one. The secret invasion thing, it felt like the mask that she was wearing, the photostatic veil nanomask was a clue. Like either it's a scroll clue

because we're seeing Sharon's face change and we're supposed to think about shape shifting and a possible scroll connection there, which would lead to secret invasion, either her being a scroll or in league with the scrolls, or, you know, what else does that make us think of? Certainly that tech appeared in agents of shield,

but also, of course, that's what Nat was wearing in Winter Soldier when she infiltrates Pierce's office, who was not working with in that movie, Nick Fury. So I think that that certainly supports your long play Fury theory. Again, they have,

they have a lot to do to totally smooth this out and sell it. But if we see some interesting stuff in Armor Wars or Secret Invasion are both, great. I mean, for me, she'd have to be a scroll or be under the deepest of covers because there's no way they're going to get me to believe that. Peggy Carter's niece, and depending on which endgame timeline theory subscribe to, Steve Rogers' niece, who in Winter Soldier fought against undercover people in the government agencies, is now the undercover op in the government agency. That was before the hill turn. No.

Nah, I'm not, I'm not here for it. I just, I don't believe, Peggy, I don't believe Sharon Carter would act out like this. She did. I broadly agree with you. I'll say, Jomey, though. I do think there have been, they're selling it. Like, they really are. If you think back to episode three, her line about,

you know, you know deep down, this whole thing is a joke. Deep down, you must know it's all hypocrisy when speaking about heroes. Like, that feels like, Like, what cover is she working on in that moment? That feels like something that reflects her actual position. And then if you think even back to Captain America Civil War, Peggy's funeral, Peggy's words that she quoted in her eulogy, you know, she said compromise where you can, where you can't don't, even if everyone is telling you that something wrong is right, even if the whole world is telling you to move it is your duty to play herself like a tree, look them in the eye and say, no, you move. That's her worldview. So they have to explain to us how she got to this place if it's really where she is.

But her being deeply rooted in, I think is true to her character. How she got there, I need some more, I have some notes on. But I would say that, yeah, but I would say that that's actually antithetical to her character because she's being totally reactionary right now. So if she believed in the good, pure works of the government that was the source of her duty then, she's now jaded and I would say that her belief system has completely changed

right and that's to me antithetical to never compromise never do this stay solid no matter because think about it Steve Rogers was a hero and Steve Rogers was an outlaw but he was still the same guy

this person right here and being an outlaw is completely different like she's murking people I agree to be clear Equifying people's faces. Yeah, like, I can buy that she would become totally disenchanted. And again, I think that the theme of people even who have dedicated their life to that type of service,

feeling like the people and the institutions they dedicated their lives to did not return. Did they not come back? Yeah. Yeah. That, I think, is actually pretty, like, pretty central and core to the focus of the show. her becoming basically evil though is a, that's a hard one. Yeah, that's where it gets, that's where it gets me. Like, I can understand her being jaded, but her being jaded enough to become like anti,

like basically anti-Captain America, like letting Batroc go and kill Sam, you know? Like, I don't know, I don't think, I don't sit, that doesn't sit right with me. That brings us to our last question. Unanswered question from this season that excites you the most for the future. you have no shortage of possibilities here. Basically every single character has an unanswered question. Sharon certainly, as we just ran through, has quite a few. What are you most excited for about among the unanswered questions moving forward?

The obvious answer seems to be excited about Sam as Captain America and highly be Captain America, but I'm really not that excited about that because I feel like I kind of know how that's going to go. Not that I don't want to see it, but I feel like I kind of know Cap, I am most excited. for when we next see Zemo. I have to be honest with you. I am most excited for when we next see Zemo. They even, as much as I gave the MVP award to Walker, they even made Walker's end to kind of very predictable,

I'm back type of end, like, you know, which is fine. But Zimo ended it with a power play. He ended this season behind bars, but still in power, still pulling strings. Much like the end of his arc. in Civil War, where he was in confinement, but felt like he had won. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So I think there's just still a lot of meat on the bone. And I want to see, you know, how they season and cook it. I was, when I was rewatching to a moment that stood out to me was in the Madreport sequence

with Selby in episode three when she asked how he got out and he says, people like us always find a way, don't we? Like now that he's back in prison, he's at the raft. That kind of line feels like a promise that he will get out again, that he will escape again. That's definitely, that's my pick as well. Will the raft prove to be a Thunderbolts recruiting ground for him? Will Val or someone else come to recruit him? Don't know. Can't wait to find out.

I do think there are like a number of other possibilities, obviously, as you mentioned, Sam. Do we know of anybody else who's at the raft right now? The only resident of the raft we know right now for sure that's at the raft is Zima, right? I think so in the MCU continuity because that's not where Blonsky was. everybody who was there at the end of Captain America Civil War, Steve sprung. Yeah. Yeah, they got them out. So again, we know that it's possible to break people out of there.

So that's promising. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I am excited to see what's next for Bucky. I think that while it felt completely appropriate to give Sam the full spotlight at the end with the name change from the Falcon and the Winter Soldier to Captain America and the Winter Soldier. It did make me a little sad for Bucky

that he was still the Winter Soldier at the end since his whole arc was about moving away from that phase in his life. So that makes me eager for what's next for him, whether it's him formerly adopting the White Wolf moniker or just shedding all of that and trying to again live in that calm.

I'm excited to see what's next for him and where he'll enter the story again. Can't wait to see how he's just out there crushing it on Tinder. Loved the moment where when he lured the flag smashers, those fucking dolts, by their own app. And he's like, great app.

This was the guy who was like, so many weird photos, a lot of tiger pictures. And the first episode and I was like, great app. Eli,

can't wait to see Eli become Patriot. Can't wait for the young Avengers. I just, I'm so excited for the Young Avengers to formally form. And, you know, we already mentioned Torres,

but I can't wait to see him as Falcon. That's going to be incredible. Val, I mean, how will John factor into her plans? what are her plans when she said it has made you very, very valuable to certain people in episode

five about the serum? Is that why? Is he valuable because he's U.S. agent now? Or is he valuable because he has the serum? Will Sharon or anyone else try to make the serum again? Or are we done with the serum for a little while? Like the serum is in multiple people's blood still. Will someone try to recreate it? Who knows? Are we going to see Madam Hydra? Thunderbolts, Dark Avengers? She's going to be in the Black Widow movie, or at least is supposed to be. Very intrigued to see how all that shakes out. I can't wait for more time with the Dora. I can't wait for more time with the Dora, man. Do you think that Ryan Cougler's Disney Plus Waconda show is going to center on the Dora?

I don't know. I think it's, I'm so interested. First of all, I want to, this is going to be first podcast. We're going to be, that I'm going to be on since what happened last night. Oh, my God. And I want to, and look, we miss Chad with Bozeman, right? We miss Chad with Bozeman. Yes.

And like it was gutting last night the way the Oscars ended. It's just such a kick. It was obviously hard for the people where I was to be super, because everyone was so elated, but it was gutting the way it ended last night. But I really do feel as if there are going to be a lot of these questions surrounding what's going on in Wakanda until we find out what's happening with, to child's character.

And so I don't know what to think of World of Wakanda. know what to think if it's going to be about to dora if it's going to be about shuri is shirry black panther or whatever i've been on record saying that i think that to chala should be recast i don't think that we as as much as anything has affected me uh from somebody that i didn't know very well chat with bozeman's death has affected me as much as anything can but i think that chalas should be recast i i really do so until we know that answer of what's happening in wakanda i don't know what that's going to be about. I mean, I know that there was a, there's a book that you could obviously base it on, but I never, I never got into that book. I haven't read very much of it.

I don't know if you have, but I didn't, I haven't read it. So I don't know. It would be great to see the door in action all the time to see what they could cook up, but I'm not sure. But I just wanted to acknowledge the fact that we're talking about something that's chat with Boseman and Jason and everybody's going to be talking about like what happened at the Oscars. So it was, it was an interesting situation. And so I'm not really sure what they're going to do with those. guys. I think that your words about Chadwick are a beautiful note to end on. Any final thoughts or final words, Van, on the Falcon and the Winter Soldier or anything else?

We're going to pick the energy right back up for all of the ringer peeps out there. This is the final thought and the final word is that Disney is succeeding. Listen, I want everybody to know this. Sure, is your childhood being weaponized against you to make you watch television shows? Of course it is. IP is not an idea. IP is a gun and it's out there popping at people, pew-pooing everywhere, right?

But look, how about this? In love, nerds, basking it. I say it again, we won. Think about it. We won. We have Star Wars stuff coming. We have Marvel stuff coming. Any character who's ever,

ever gotten a power anytime. I can't wait for them to reboot the greatest American hero. Like really deep cut shit that didn't even really work during its time. It's our time. And it's just beginning. There's so much coming.

So much Marvel. So much Star Wars. We got throne spinoffs coming. The Lord of the Rings show coming. Lord of the Rings that costs $100 billion the episode. Such a massive pile of gold on which smog can take a decades-long map.

Great stuff. So I'm just excited. That's all I'll say. Me too. I love it. All right, friends, things are about to get weird, as Val warned us. So make sure you stay tuned to the Ringervverse for all of the goodness to come. Follow us on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Ringervverse and join the Ringervverse Facebook group.

Great place to submit your mailbag questions, chat with other people who love the same stories as you do. Thank you, as always, to our wonderful producer, Steve Allman, as well as to TD St. Matthew, Daniel, our Juno Ram Gapal, and the entire production team for their help with today's episode. Thank you to the Lord of the Memes, Jomea Denneron, for his work on the social for this episode. And Steve, do you still have the air horns ready? Thank you again to Oscar winner Van Blayton for joining me today. truly what a privilege so much fun. The Midnight Boys' Van Charles

will be back with you on Friday with their instant reactions to the Invincible season finale. Everybody in the Ring orverse family loves Invincible, so check out that episode. It's going to be a blast. And then I will be back with you next Tuesday to chat about the bad batch premiere

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