The Ringer-Verse - ‘The Last of Us’ and the Lone Wolf and Cub Trope | House of R

Episode Date: January 20, 2023

Joanna and Mal take you on a guided tour of their "Tropes Course" and, in honor of ‘The Last of Us,’ examines the story trope of the Lone Wolf and the Cub (09:19). They talk about the dynamics of travelers and the ones they protect—often on paths of redemption, revenge, and adventure. Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Addition Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Yossi Salik, and I'm the host of Bansplain, a show where we explain cult bands and iconic artists by going deep into their histories and discographies. We're back with a brand new season at our brand new home, the Ringer podcast network, tackling a whole new batch of artists, from grunge gods to power pop pioneers to new metal legends and many, many more. Listen to new episodes every Thursday, only on Spotify. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matter. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required.

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This is the one that you hunted, then saved? Yes, the one that saved me as well. It looks helpless. It's injured, but it is not helpless. What is it? It is a foundling. By creed. It is in your...

all care. You wish me to train this thing. It is too weak. It would die. You have no choice. You must reunite it with its own kind. This is the way. The Nexus podcast feed for all things.

Fandem. I'm Joanna Robinson and joining me today. She's my founding. She is in a pack of two with me. It's my very own comeback. Valerie Rubin. Hi, Mallory. Wow. Joe, I am here at Ringerversity with my favorite professor, Prof. Joe. Love a Clan of Two. What's our signet? Not the Mudhorn. Certainly not the mudhorn. I mean, why don't we just go for Grog? Oh, a cat. Yes. Maybe a cat cuddling Grogu. Yeah. Grogu is kind of cat-like with the ears and everything. Do you know what I mean? Absolutely. Okay. Boy, do I?

A cat hugging Grogu. What could be better? Hello. Literally nothing. Welcome to something special that we're doing today, something we're really excited to be doing. We are talking about a major trope, a major storytelling device that is all the rage in your favorite film and television and perhaps novels and maybe comic books right now. We thought we would take some time to talk about the idea of lone wolf and kuzon.

And we will get into what all that means and what we're doing here today. But let me first start by saying, if you're looking for a sort of more traditional Mallory and Joanna break down the new HBO series The Last of Us, that episode exists. Mallory, where can folks find it? Oh, so glad you asked Joe. You can find our deep dives on each new episode of The Last of Us. You can find Van and Charles's instant reactions on each episode of The Last of Us over on our sister feed, the ringer.

Prestige TV podcast. I just want to let you know if you're listening to this and you've had some trouble finding the Prestige TV feed, it exists. It is out there. It is not a Spotify exclusive, though we always love when you find things on Spotify. But I just want to let you know, I've heard you, I've heard you, I've heard the call. I'm here to tell you you can find it. We're so excited to be doing Last of Us coverage over there. But we thought we'd talk a bit about Last of us and a number of other shows and films and books that we love over on the Ringerverse here today. There's a lot going on in this feed right now. The Midnight Boys are doing like a bunch of fun drafts. And I was like looking at the schedule what they have upcoming and I'm

really excited. I love a Midnight Boy draft and they've got they've got a lot coming. So see in drafts Mallory. We had one last week. How did that work out for for folks? It was great. I won. I'm thrilled. Yeah. I came in dead last. Honestly, I'm shocked, but that's okay. But as always, I'll be a gracious winner. I'll never mention it again. This will be the last time you hear me talk about it. Mallory's been texting me every single day, being like, did you see?

Did you see that I won? And how much I won by? Joe will send me a really sweet note, something thoughtful, something illuminating. And I'm just like, scoreboard! Next week on our show House of R, we are doing a mailman. episode. And I don't think we've ever done a proper mailbag episode on House of Our. So Mallory, like, what should people send us? And how can they reach us in order to do that? Send us your questions about literally anything in the ringer-verse sphere that you want to hear

us talk about that you're interested in. Obviously, it would be great to get some questions on things that are happening now or coming in the near future. Hit us with your last of us questions. Hit us with your quantum manned's just a few weeks away. Hit us with your Mando questions. It's almost Mando season. Mando will be coming up more than once today as well. Send us your emails at Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. If you've got longer mailbag questions,

if you want to share some mushroom recipes with Joe after her request on our first last of us deep dive. Obviously keep the Apple inquiries coming now and always. And we'll also get a tweet up if you want to send us your mailbag questions that way. You can reach us anywhere with your mailbag prompts. We are so excited to hear from you and answer some of your questions next week. I have so many mushroom recipes to try. I can't even begin to tell you. I did have mushrooms, mushrooms and eggs this morning.

Delicious. Tonight I'm playing to make toasted yoki. It was like one of the first recipes that came in with mushrooms. Definitely. People are sending me really ambitious mushroom recipes and it was really going to test me. We'll see. Someone sent me something from the Otolengi cookbook, and I was like, okay, I think you overestimate my ability, but we'll see.

I'm going to do my best. All right. I'm proud of you. If there's anywhere in L.A. that you think I can order something from. We'll get you on the gold belly circuit there. Oh, I'm on the gold belly circuit. Okay.

So that's program reminders. That's our email situation. Mailbag next week. We're really excited. We're also heading into some Mando Prep in the future. We want to make sure everyone's like a. to date on, you know, all the animated series content that's going to feature in Mando Season 3.

We want to all dive as deeply as possible as we can into that. Spoiler warning is a little tricky today. And let me explain how it's going to go. Is your spoiler warning just like content? Everything. Everything that's ever existed. No, I mean, there's some targeted things that I want to talk about. We are going to be generally talking about a number of projects.

I'm going to rattle them off for you really quickly. but I just want to warn you that there are two moments that I think are like especially like if you haven't seen it you might not want to know about it. And it is about the TV series Station 11 and it is about the film Logan. And I'm going to give you so much ample warning before we get into those two spoiler points.

Like if you are doing dishes, I'm going to give you time to dry off your hands and go find your device and hit that skip ahead 15 second button. If you're on the elliptical, like whatever you're doing. I know sometimes you have to scramble for the thing. There's going to be time. As long as it takes for a Wolverine wound to heal in Logan, that's how long you'll have to respond to the spoiler.

Okay, so here's what we're covering today broadly. Lonelof and Cub, it's a comic book and also there's films and TV shows, etc. So Lonelof and Cub, literally that. Last of Us, the first episode. It's aired. We've talked about it. We're going to talk about the first episode. Mallory and I have not played the game.

we don't know spoilers going forward. So that's something on the table there. First two seasons of Mandalorian. Station 11. Logan. Obi-Wan. Some Game of Thrones a little bit. The Professional, the Road. T2 Judgment Day is Dark Materials.

Willow. Hump for the Wilder people. The Road to Perdition, True Grit. Aliens. Various Batman and Robin properties. Very, very, very, very light Doctor Who spoilers. The Witcher very barely. Stranger Things Up, and Marvel's current phase of introducing Young Avengers. That's sort of what's in the stew today.

I'm not going to say we're going to hit every single thing, but I just want to let you know that's sort of what's in the mix. Anything else you want to say on the spoiler warning front other than content generally? I guess maybe just mentioning that the mandocentric episodes of Book of Boba are also a fair game. Fair. Great. Otherwise, I think you covered it. You're right. Okay.

So let's get into it. We are starting with section I'm calling Scope of the Trope of the Tray. trope, and I'm calling it that because our listener, Chad, wrote in and suggested that. So, scope of the trope. Delightful. Here we go. We're starting at the very beginning here at Ringer You. What is a trope?

Mallory, do you have a definition of a trope you want to hit folks with? I think that sometimes when we, in the year of our Lord, 2023, pop culture consumers, people in the peak TV era, main line and content. Use the word trope. When we talk about tropes, I think often we are indicating something that has become so commonplace

that it feels conventional routine at best and at worst, cliche. But I think that there's another way to think about tropes and certainly a way that we want to incorporate

into our assessment of tropes that helps us examine why a device that becomes a trope is so enduring. Why does it recur? Why does it become a pattern that is then a constant in our lives tradition? Storytelling traditions that we turn to time and time again. And this storytelling tradition that we're going to talk about today, alone, Wolf and Coalb, connects to a number of other storytelling traditions, the hero's journey, the quest, the two-hander, fellowship, found family, others that we'll talk about

today. Big in fantasy, big across other genres as well, big in recent years. We will be tracing it to the manga from which it takes its name, but I think we will say here and time and time again throughout the pod, that it goes back throughout time and that that is also one of the real like germs and core strands of DNA that we're interested in assessing here. You pick the point in a recent pop culture history, modern day pop culture, that is an origin for the way we think or talk about a thing. Coaching tree, the archetypes that spawn from it. But it is such a fixture in part because it connects to the greater myths and storytelling traditions that are almost elemental to how we share tales with each other. What about you?

How do you think about a trope? I love that. Well, like what you're saying about this sort of elemental going back so deep into the tradition of storytelling itself, I'll probably don't want to read a little quote to you from a book that I've been really digging into, which is Jonathan Gottschel's The Storytelling Animal, How Stories Make Us Human. This is a book recommended to me by my friend Lonnie Diane Rich, who I'll talk about Lonnie's book a little bit later. But this quote's a little long, but it is so, like, so perfectly captures a lot of what we talk about. So this is on storytelling, right?

Gatchel writes, he starts by talking about monkeys typing on a typewriter and, and making, eventually getting Hamlet, right? So he says, long before any of these primates thought of writing Hamlet or Harlequins or Harry Potter stories, long before these primates could envision writing it all, they thronged around hearth fires, trading wild lies about brave tricksters

and young lovers, selfless heroes and shrewd hunters, sad chiefs and wise crones, the origin of the sun and the stars, the nature of gods and spirits and all the rest of it, tens of thousands of years ago when the human mind was young

and our numbers were few, we were telling one another stories. And now, tens of thousands of years later, when our species teems across the globe, most of us still hughed strongly to myths about the origins of things. And we still thrilled to an astonishing multitude of fictions on pages,

on stages, and on screens, murder stories, sex stories, war stories, conspiracy stories, true stories and false. We are, as a species, addicted to story. Even when the body goes to sleep, the mind stays up all. night telling itself stories. I just thought that that was like an incredible.

That idea of like our dreams being stories that our mind is telling itself while we, our body rests is just, um, is just incredible. I was, I was just really taken by that. And so the idea of like, we've been telling these stories for so long, as you say, long predates this manga that we're going to talk about as sort of the origin of the naming of this trope. But those elemental stories that we keep coming back to and that they capture something very universal in our experiences as we try to understand the universe, as we as humans try to sort of like grapple for meaning and grapple for connection and how stories, you and I prize story above almost anything else. You know what I mean?

It's how we connect to each other. It's how we connect to our listeners. It's how we, you know, understand the world. And so I just, I'm so excited to talk about this particular story. What does it make you think of in terms of, like, you, that broader idea of story, repeated stories that we tell each other? I love that passage so much. That is just gorgeous.

I found myself thinking, unsurprisingly, perhaps, about Joseph Campbell ever heard of him. Oh, Uncle Joe? Yeah, I guess we can't call him Daddy Joe today because we're going to talk about a lot of other rules. and daddies. Yeah. Uncle Joe here with us today. We cite, in quote, from Campbell a lot. We turn to the Hero with a Thousand Faces a lot when we're looking at how an

adaptation like Star Wars, for example, connects to these great storytelling traditions. But I thought of a line specifically, like from the very opening of Hero with A Thousand Faces is in the Mono Myth prologue. So this is like these starting news. note the thing that Campbell wanted you to be thinking about before all of the other specific areas of examination unfurled and unspooled from there, quote, it will always be the one shape-shifting yet marvelous constant story that we find, together with a challengingly persistent suggestion of more remaining to be experienced than we ever, than will ever be known or told.

And that's not about tropes. He's not writing about tropes. Troops there is writing about the Monmouth, who's writing about the hero's journey, but that idea, I think, is very of a piece. Anything that becomes recurring, anything that pulls us, us being creators or consumers, storytellers, story sharers, into the compulsion to revisit, to simultaneously, like, see a new face or a new spin,

some sort of new element, put onto that constant soul and through line, of the thing. What can we unlock that is new about our present moment, a certain shared experience, that we unlock through

a thing that we have been doing with each other forever. And that idea of change and constancy in stories and how they relate to each other and where they veer apart I think is just such a rich text for us

and an interesting way to unlock a lot of the particulars that we'll be exploring today because these stories are also different from each other. But they share this this strand, this context, and some of the lessons, some of the upshots, some of the themes are going to operate in parallel, of course. But then so many of the particulars are specific and particular to like that character set, that world, that universe, that moment.

This trope specifically, I mean, like, the easiest thing for us to cite to help you understand broadly what this trope is is if you look at the Mandalorian, which centers on Mando, Denjaran, and Grogu, right? Lone Wolf and Cub, right? Or if you look at The Last of Us, another Pedro Pascal joint, which features Joel and Ellie, right? So, you know, broadly, the lone wolf and cub or what our friend Kim Renfro has decided to call reluctant daddy,

is when a usually male badass or loner takes it upon himself out of goodness, interest, or circumstances beyond his control to protect an orphaned, unrelated young child. Or a related child. Lone Wolf and Cub literally, the very popular manga from the 1970s, Caso Occoique's story, that's literally a father and child, right?

And that is a story of a man wandering the countryside with his very young son. And rereading the manga, I was like, rereading the manga, I was like struck by how, how this character uses this child right from the beginning, puts this child in danger constantly for his own ends, right? This is not a, it's less a protective thing, but it is, but it is a combination that is very potent. What's your experience with Lone Wolf and Cub as either a manga or there's a film TV adaptations of it as well? Yeah. If anyone who's listening hasn't checked this out or isn't familiar,

you know, in addition to reading the manga, you can pop right on HBO Max, the Criterion Collection version of Lone Wolf and Cubs Sort of Vengeance, which is the first film in the series of adaptations right there for you. You can stream it easily and then keep exploring from there. I would highly recommend it. You know, revisiting this, Joe, it's the parallels on the mapping onto so many of the stories that we talk about and have talked about in recent years or are talking about right now. It's really like, some of it is note for note. Like you can think of something like Ogami presenting his son with the choice of the sword or the ball.

And it's like, well, we just saw, we just saw Luke do this with Grogu. And I think the thing, you know, you have this. beautiful roadmap for us today, this absolutely brilliant outline and all this wonderful research that we're going to dive into. And one of the things I think really smartly that you've, you've sketched out for us is the different manifestations. What is central to the wolf? What is central to the cub? What are the different versions of this that we get? What seems to be recurring? What is distinct? And on the one hand, lone wolf and Cobb is very particular to this version of it. But you'll watch it and you'll say, oh, I see how this is.

an influence on Kill Bill. I see how this is an influence on this stretch of Star Wars. On and on and on, the list goes. There is a juxtaposition at play in this particular father-son relationship that I think almost feels unholy, like in a way that is very relevant for the Last of Us. We chatted a lot in our Last of premiere deep dive about the way that Craig Mason, one of the co-creators and co-showrunners of the series, spoke in The Inside the episode Featured on HBO on the official HBO companion pod, etc. About this idea of love as not just a beautiful and healing thing, but a dangerous thing. Finding that person that you will protect, but then what do you do when you're acting on those primal urges? And that is so present here in lone wolf and cop protection through this ferocious, unrelenting violence.

When Ogami is talking about what is about to happen, what is the language? The demon way. And acknowledgement that there's only one goal. Vengeance. Vengeance at all costs, even at the cost of your own soul. And to go back to that choice of sword. or ball, he doesn't want his child to go with him. He doesn't want him to pick the sword. He wants him to pick the ball, even though that would mean death, even though that would mean the end of his life.

His family has already been toward asunder. And this is all like, this is very early in the story. You would have been happier if you joined your late mother, he says. And he's weeping, my poor child, an assassin with a child. That's, the quote. And it's just heart-wrenching. What does it need to head out into the world with that quest and a baby in a cart? And what's so interesting is that in the manga, especially in the first sections of the manga, like, that's not really the story. Like this, in the manga, he's just sort of like, every time he encounters someone and he tricks them, it's very like sort of adventure of the week, right? With the manga, each issue is like him encountering a different village or bad guy or

whatever, who hires him or, you know, like, we'll talk about that, but like, every, he keeps encounter these people in their like, and he will lure them into something by using his child, like, his child is drowning in order to lure someone into the water so that he can kill that

person. These are the extremes that he goes to in order to you know, make his mark. And he keeps encountering people who are like, there's this one quote, uh, you'd put a child at risk to achieve your ends. And he says, a father knows his child's heart as only a child can know his father's.

A stranger would not understand. So, like, in the manga, he is already, you don't even learn about the vengeance aspect of it at first. You're just seeing, it's just like an early concept of like, what if Shogun assassin, but there's a baby in a cart also. And then they spun that concept out to a more overarching sort of serialized story. But I just thought that that was so interesting. And this descriptor of the story. Like Father and Son, walking the road to hell together, giving up their souls for vengeance. So we're going to talk about so many examples where in a lone wolf and cub story, the cub is pulling the wolf towards the light.

But I'm so glad you brought up the last of us because I do think that that, I mean, we don't know. But early indications from the showrunner tell us, like, is this a pull towards the light story or is this a pull towards the dark story? Right. And, you know, we'll all find out together and people have played the game or like shouting at their. devices saying we know, but Mal and I don't know, but it, you know, it seems like it might be a pull towards the dark story. Yeah.

Mason saying, quote, this is where you begin to see the problem in response to the look on Ellie's face as she watches Joel beat Lee to death, but also the deliciousness of the pairing. These two were meant to be together,

but look out. So that mixed, entwined, Yeah. Positive and potentially very damaging relationship. When did you first become aware of, like, Lo and Wolf and Cub as a trope or, like, as a manga or as a film or anything like that? You know what? It's such a good question. I have no idea. Do you ever have experiences like this now in your life where you're like, I can't even recall when this thing first, when I became aware of it, like, when I gained consciousness and, and really like started to think about this.

And in a way, normally I think if we were prepping for a pod and I was like, boy, I need to like text to the person I know I saw this with the first time or ask my dad when he first dropped off white noise at my dorm room and like, I was trying to get the, let me check my addition for when this was put into print, etc. And try to like actually get the answer. But in this case, I thought that was fitting. I thought it was actually fitting that I couldn't think you're at and pinpoint. in the exact moment because that's part of what it makes a trope a trope. Yeah.

It just feels like it's a part of the air around you. What about you? Do you have a more specific memory than that? I guess I'm more specific. I didn't know, I didn't know to name it, I would say, until like John Favreau cited Lone Wolf and Cub as the inspiration for Mando season one. And a bunch of people I knew were like, oh, of course it's Lone Wolf and Cub. And I was like, oh, I suppose I should read and watch Lone Wolf and Cub, which is what I did.

So my exposure to that specific source material is much more recent, but when you start looking at the way in which it ripples out into so many stories that we know. But I really think that like, I think Favro naming it as as inspiration for Mando and Mando becoming so popular and then so many other people chasing that Mando formula is what has really cemented it as a trope in recent years. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I love that too because, again, even though that's particular to the specific example, that's, part of a Star Wars tradition, where if you think about the way that George Lucas back in the 70s, you should talk about his inspirations for Star Wars, how many people then discovered something new because of that. And, you know, something that is so mainstream, like, peak chief pop culture,

this is the most popular thing in the world, Mando Star Wars, whatever the case may be. And then it allows you, it's your portal, not only into the galaxy far, far away, but into all of these other new lanes of discovery, the source text that inspired, the person who created this new source text that has inspired you. Like, what's more fun than that? And that's what I think. One of my favorite interview questions to ask people is like, what's an unexpected, like, inspo for this, right?

Like, you were talking about this at The Last of Us, like when you go on ACHO Max and ACHO Max is like, so you like the last of us. So you tried, it's Asian 11. But like thinking about the other outside the box influences, then like it pushes us or those of us who like feel story addicted in that way to seek out these things that, you know, to fill out our background. and then to be able to make those connections as we talk about a thing, perhaps on a deep dive on a Friday morning with a friend of ours.

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Let's talk about wolves. Oh, my favorite. I love a wolf. I love a wolf. I love a wolf. I love a wolf and the lone wolf and cub trope, self-reliant, outcast, badass, typically a fan favorite. Sometimes the character is nameless, like the Mandalorian before we found out of his name, the Mandalorian, the Gunslinger. the, you know,

the samurai, etc. Strengths, they have qualities, they have to have quality that makes the reader watcher respect the character. So usually they are like

good at fighting. You know, there's something that they do that is impressive they can handle themselves. Weaknesses, though, they need to have something that makes them relatable,

human, frail. And then even more importantly, something like the lone wolf because so much of the story is about cracking open. If you think about Mandalorian, literally like a Besscar shell that we're trying to like crack open to get to the human underneath, that's vulnerabilities. We've got people operating with strong, usually if you become a lone wolf in a gruff sort of way, something has happened that has made you put on that Bessar armor or, you know, the metaphorical Bessar

armor. And we'll get into some like specific examples there. but I just thought that was really interesting. Mel, can you take us through this idea of the lone wanderer versus the lone traveler? Joe, when I think of you, I think of two things. One, you love to forage for mushrooms, and two, you love a drifter. I do love a drifter.

This definitely gets into what you were alluding to earlier about the different nature of episodic or serialized storytelling when you get some sort of adventure of the week. framework, which is certainly the way that the Mandalorian, I, I, we're going to, you mentioned so many the stories we're going to talk about in the spoiler warning. We'll hit dozens. I think Mando, even though last of us is the hook for today, Mando will probably be the one we return to the most, because it is just so applicable in so many different respects. And I think that the way, like, everything you just described about that, that vulnerability, the, um, the outcast, like, the way that this

connects to the idea of being a wanderer. Like, we learn in the first few episodes of the Mandalorian and season one so much more about Dyn's own history as a foundling and being brought into the group, the watch, the children of the watch who have this way and this creed that then influences the way Mando thinks about others like Grogu, foundlings, etc. I've got this Baskar here, use it for the foundlings. And that presence of an absorption into some sort of group, but also then a very solitary path, what is he doing every day? How does he come across Grogo in the first place? He's a bounty hunter.

Bounty hunter. He's a solitary man out in the galaxy with a ship and a code and a creed. We'll talk more about codes and creeds. new story, new adventure, new people who are going to cross his path, and then who pulls him out of that? This is maybe a moment where you can tell me a little bit about the doctor because I know that this idea of new adventures and wandering is very central to the Doctor Who universe as well. I love that because, so Mal and I are going to be doing more Doctor Who like research and learning together throughout the years. Well, one of us will be doing some learning. Yeah.

I'm learning plenty on my rewatch, but we're going to dig into that. So I don't want to go deep into the doctor stuff because I want to save that for the conversation once you've seen episodes. But the doctor is someone who travels through time and space. And every week, you know, we're on a new planet or in a new spot in time. And that's certainly how Mando starts, right? Every episode we're hopping to another planet. Mando as a bounty hunter gives him that excuse to wander around the gunslinger trope. of like someone who comes to town, solves a problem,

and then moves on, Shane, et cetera, right? And then what's so interesting. Shane, of course, the film they're watching in Logan. In Logan, right? Yeah. No more guns in the valley. What's interesting about the Mandalorian is that it moves from a lone wanderer trope

to a lone traveler trope, because the difference between traveler and wanderers, wanderers is wandering around. No clear goal in sight. is just like, this is the life I've chosen. I'm a man on the road, you know? A traveler is someone with a destination. They're on the road to something.

And maybe they're making all these stops along the way, but they're on the road to something. And so when Mando becomes someone who is trying to reunite Grogu with his people, whatever that means, he's a man with a destination. Yes. You know?

Now, based on what has happened since, I don't know if we're going to go back to a lone wanderer, or a lone drifter, or whatever. There's some, there's some, a trick of the lone traveler, the person with a purpose or a destination is usually there is an antagonist. And I think if you look at Mando and the way in which antagonism has grown in that versus beginning where again, it's just sort of like aimlessly bopping around. Those are two distinct tropes that I think are really interesting. And there's like a subcategory of the lone traveler that I think is really interesting, which is like loner on the road. run. Steve, can you hit us with our second clip of the day from Hunt for the Wilder People, please.

You think we've walked a thousand miles yet, like the Wildebeest? It feels like it, eh? Yeah, always on the move, always on the lookout for hunters, just like the Wilder Beast, except humans, we're wilder people. Yeah, that's us. Okay, then, Wilder Boy. It's fine. Somebody to eat, show it? Mallory and I love this movie.

This is an incredible movie, Hunt for the Wilder People, if you've never seen it. Tycho I Titi film. Sam Neal reprising his gruff. I don't like kids move from Jurassic Park except even gruffer. And he gets saddled with this kid, Ricky Baker, who they get drawn into the bush, and then they're on the run from the law.

And they are pushed together in a way that by the end, you know, as is often the case of lone wolf and cub story, they form an incredible bond. So like even in that quote when he calls him Wilder Boy, it's just this like moment of tenderness that is so earned, has taken so long and is so earned. But that lone wolf on the run saddled with a cub sort of element I love so much. I think you want to say about Hunt for the Wilder people, Valerie Rubin? These soundbites are just shredding my heart. It's beautiful.

It's beautiful. There's one more, like, loner that we want to talk about, which is the lone remainder, because oftentimes the loner is moving around because that's a way to movement, physical movement in a story is a way to generate character growth, right? Like, as we encounter new people, new settings, we are pushed towards growth. It's harder to tell the story about a lone remainer, but there is an example of that case that I want to talk about really briefly. we mentioned this a bunch on our last of us episode that we did on the Prestige TV feed this week.

It is Station 11. Fantastic book, fantastic TV series that's on HBO Max one season. Please go watch it. That story starts as a lone traveler story of a story. It's just one guy, Jeevan Chowdry, trying to get one girl, Kirsten, home as the outbreak of a pandemic in a very snowy city happens. But after they reached that destination, this is really early in the story, so I don't think this is like a major spoiler or whatever, there's a lot of sheltering in place that

happens. And so we get this like forced growth just through proximity of Jivin Chowdhury, a man who has only ever had to take care of himself and barely, he's had people taking care of him, to someone who is put in a position of taking care of someone else and what that does to push you towards growth. And can you shake off those, we as humans experience this all the time when we're around people who have known us a long time and they have certain expectations of us,

very much so our family, right? It's hard to convince those people that you're someone else. But when you're with someone new, you can sort of push yourself towards growth. Can I be someone different than I've been my whole life? Anything you want to say about Jeevan and Kirsten, Mallory? Oh, boy. So much.

What a wonderful novel and what a truly marvelous and beautiful adaptation. And one of the things about the adaptation that I think is worth mentioning in the context of today's pod is that this is created for the show. This is a change. There are a lot of adjustments and tweaks and shifts from the novel to the show that some of them are structural, some of them help to showcase some sort of them them them showcase some sort of them them them themeatic key in a new way. But putting Jivan and Kirsten together in this way is I think of all the changes you can point to the single biggest distinction between book and show and the most successful and awe-inspiring. And to consider that when we're talking about lone wolf and cub, the idea that the show wanted to give us that, that dynamic that was absent. And like, why? What does that present? What does that showcase for us inside of a story about the end of things, certainly, but also the beginning of new things and the people that you can build those new things with?

and Patrick Somerville, the creator of the show, a brilliant novelist and showrunner and writer, I thought it was so interesting when the show was running to hear him talk about the changes that he made and why. And I'll read a pretty long quote from him, if you'll allow me, because I think it is so eliminating not only for the Station 11 example, but the larger discussion today.

This was in an interview that Patrick gave with Sam Adams over at Slate. Quote, that story in the novel was about repairing old wounds, re-investigating old dynamics, looking at hard decisions, but also reviving a love. And it's about family making. So we made adjustments to make a vacuum for young Kirsten to step into, like, there's a missing person here, and it's our sister, but we happen to have a young child. We know what to do. I think that's very much the book. How do you rebuild? It's a very common thing to say, chosen family now in the last 10 years especially and it's a powerful idea but i find it to be a hard idea too one that requires a little bit more investigation than simply saying here i am with my friends

it's not so easy to be in any family even if it's a chosen family oh i love that i love that incredible this next quote we're going to hate you with is is frank the franks mentioned here is jeven's brother right so there's jeven and frank frank has known jeven a really long time and there's kirsten a new element and Jeevan and Kirsten are sheltering in place. Kirsten wants to stay because it feels safe. And Jeevan wants to go partially because of his discomfort in this sort of protector role. Steve, will you play this clip, please? I'm Jeevan Chaudhry.

Hello? Frank told me your nickname. What nickname? Leaving Jeevan. You are getting so good. Are you leaving? For some reason I think all the time about the delivery of are you leaving Jeevan? Like it's like so vulnerable on the part of Kirsten who's such a tough kid.

Yeah. Right. And these two are the only, like they only have each other in all the world. And she doesn't, she doesn't trust or she has been told that he's the kind of person who is not going to stick around. And he's been told his whole life that he's the kind of person who's not going to stick around. What I love that, like, what comes right before this moment. And this isn't the Station 11, spoiler, by the way. This is like, this is sort of like basics of the storytelling.

But like right before this, he's on the shortwave radio pretending to be a doctor. He's like in the midst of kind of like really majorly trying to reinvent himself. And it's like, can you reinvent yourself when these ghosts of who you've been, who Frank thinks he is, who his brother thinks he is, is sort of like hanging around. And what opportunity there is in the eyes of a young kid to reinvent yourself as a protector, as a paternal, as someone better? This is one of those like pull towards the light that we talk about. I love that. Like I love the idea of opportunities being challenges, but also challenges being opportunities.

And like it's hard to be on your own, but it's hard to be with other people too. And both of those things can be true at once. And another person can help you discover something about yourself. or give you that purpose. Like we chatted in our last of us premiere pod about how Pedro Pascal talked about the idea of purpose and fatherhood as being this central driving force

in his character, Joel's life across these changing circumstances, across these different moments in time and different character sets. And for characters like Jeevan and Kirsten, that idea that you could find somebody who you would truly want to protect, you could be in a circumstance

that would not only necessitate, some sort of evolution, but make you actually want to pursue and live inside of that evolution, but also that that's like not a really, in some ways, the most natural thing, which is changing and growing, is also the thing that is in conflict with the most natural thing, which is like the things that are the truest about you are the hardest to shake. I love that. One last thing we want to say, while we're still in wolf, wolf territory before we move to Cubs. Protect Ghost. Is that what you want to say while still in wolf territory? Always. Always.

I think this kind of important email we got from our listener, Mikhail, questioning, we're talking about all these lone wolves. Our friend, our pal, Kim, Renbroke, called this a reluctant daddy trope. Why is it always men and daddies in this role and not women, right? So, Macau writes, I'm so glad you're starting with a lone wolf and cub trope, because both because I love it to pieces and will follow it anywhere, and also because it's fundamentally flawed along lines of gender, about to make a generalization here, so there may be plenty of stories that contradict my thoughts, but I can't think of them. Why do we embrace the trope of

the reluctant dad and ignore or even actively reject the reluctant mom? In the trope catalog, the tough man with a deeply buried heart who can act with coldness and even cruelty towards a child so long as he sees the light, he's a hero. The tough woman is a villain, the evil stepmother, the deadbeat mom, usually just a sad note of backstory for our main character to overcome. Obviously, I can think of a few reasons. None of them good, but I can't help but understand it through the lens of a different trope, babysitter dad. The idea that fatherhood is an opt-in project and that men who participate are heroic,

just for turning up, is really pervasive. The lone wolf is to mix zoological metaphors. Lionized because his eventual kindness to and connection with the cub are ultimately a choice he can make. The cub is not a burden he has to bear, for the most part. In a way, he transcends nature by choosing to love and care for the innocent. But the reluctant mom, she's violating nature.

She's straying outside the lines of how she's supposed to act, and more importantly feel she has to be here in any degree of absence, emotionally preoccupied, busy at work, or saving the world constitutes a sin, and who can root for that? I'm curious what you think of this and how you factor gender roles into a character pattern that is genuinely very appealing. Can we tell stories of a gruff lady saddled with an unexpected child on a dangerous journey? Can we center women's reluctance to be caring and connected children? Are there examples I'm just missing? She mentions McGonical being sort of next to but not quite. I was thinking about this actually

as we were pointing this together and I actually got a couple emails about this. One example, it's not like the whole story, but one thing that came to mind was Ellen Ripley and Newt in aliens. But again, Ripley is a character that was written for a male actor and sort of changed the last minute to be

Sigourney Weaver. And so Ripley is a character who's been coded masculine sort of from the start. Yeah, a badass and adventurer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Brand and Pod was something that I was thinking about. We're going to talk about a different Thrones pairing.

I was thinking about Brandon Pod, too. We should probably just mention for anyone who's confused by that how much younger pod is in the books. Right. Yeah. Much more Cub-like in the novels than the sex god pod of the landscape. And then we're going to talk about sort of the blurring the lines of the concept of the cub, but like a not quite cub-like,

but I was thinking about it, was like Zena and Gabrielle, the pairing on Zena Warrior Princess, where you have tough, badass lady warrior, Zena, and soft little Hufflepuff, Gabriel, who's on the, and then like,

they both change over time, and then that becomes something other than Lo and Wolf and Cub for sure. And then one of our listeners suggested the TV show hacks, which I kind of like, again, that's not like super-cummy,

but like, I kind of like that idea. But again, it's certainly in the mind, So like, anything you want to say about this gender question here? Well, now that I'm thinking about hacks, I think every future lone wolf and cub story should be on a tour bus.

Oh, boy. Make sure you keep an eye on the tennis ball carrier. Yeah, don't let it out of the side. Don't toss that out. This is a fascinating and really interesting email, just listening to you, read it, and you think about a character, like Brienne, I think that, you know, I think we all as viewers or readers bring a lot of our

own stuff to our read on any character and the connection to any character. And like, always one of the reasons I fucking loved Breanne, right? Is because she's like, I'm not going to do the thing that society expects just because I'm supposed to. I don't want to dress up in your fancy ball gowns and dance around. I want to be a knight. Look at this armor. And I I can crush you with my sword. And the way that Pod, who has had other lone wolf and cub experiences, like with Tyrion, right? And then moves into that relationship and is so the adoration and respect that he brings and the, the, like, power of his desire to learn from her and the recognition that she has something to teach him that other people didn't, it's just always one of the things that I cherish so deeply about the relationship, which I guess speaks.

to the point of the email, there are all sorts of different ways to give us a lone wolf and club story and all sorts of different ideas that that can present and unlock. Well, what about you? Yeah, I mean, I do think it goes into that whole thing where we throw parade sometimes for men

when they take care of their child and for women's expected. So I think, you know, I think that is an inherent baked into our culture problem in question. This episode is brought to by Boris What if we told you the taste of deep fried turkey is now available at your local deli? Well, Boar's Head just did that. Bursting with flavor, perfectly seasoned with that indulgent taste that usually means

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please love it love a cup first most obvious the character's literal child right that's what lone wolf and cup is he is literal child uh also uh laura and logan if you want to talk about clones if you consider clones children which i do i've decided i do so yes like laura and logan i like jango certainly considered boba his son and not just his Unmodified genetic template recreation. So yes. Sure. No, I allow it.

I like it. Sweet. There's also the link of the like magical McGuffin or prize, right? This idea of like, Allora Danon and Willow, the like fated princess, you know, who's supposed to, you know, defeat evil. The child in Mando is a bounty,

a literal bounty, right? Right. Aria Stark and The Hound and Thrones, we're going to talk about that. But Aria, he sees Aria as a payday at first, right? I can go turn her into family and get a reward. And then Ellie and The Last of Us, we learn at the end of the first episode of The Last of Us that Ellie is potentially immune to this outbreak. And that makes her the miracle cure potentially. So she's a prize to be towed her out.

And that kind of cub brings with it danger to the lone wolf, right? Because other people are interested in that cub. And I think that's interesting. Yeah, absolutely. And then what does that, how does that influence the wolf's course then? Is it from some sort of selflessness, some sort of desire to protect, some sort of desire to write a wrong? Is there some sort of self, like the hound example is a good one for like a personal motivation. Not all of this is altruistic, which is part of what makes it a really rich text,

is that there can often be something that is, if not outright and nefarious at first, then at least something that connects to some sort of personal end or motivation. And then does that stick or does that morph? And we love a character on an arc, Joe, and we love characters whose arcs move and grow and change in tandem with each other. And that's one of the really rewarding parts of the lone wolf and cup trope, I think, for us as fans of, as lovers of an arc, right? Is like, look at the way

that these characters are helping each other change. There's the very basic lone wolf and cub, like this small, defenseless thing, needs protection. Yes.

Yes. Yes. Protection from some sort of force, right? Yeah. Some sort of, but also, like, should we talk about

our bearded, our bearded bestie, Obi-One? For a second here. Bestie is not where I thought you were going to go with that. Our bearded boyfriend, everyone? Usually I was going to say, usually when I say daddy and I'm talking about Obi-Wan, I mean it in an entirely different way.

Different contact, yeah. Oh, boy. The number of... I didn't see Cobbant. I didn't see Cobbant in the Amanda Season 3 trailer, I'm just saying. Oh, boy. Steve giving us a dear me in the Zoom chat. Makes us think of our guy, B's.

Wonderful. Miss you, bees. Dear me. God speak good. Leia, young Leia, definitely needs protection from Obi-1 for numerous reasons that are central to the animating plot mechanics of the six-episode television show,

Obi-1 Canobi. But there is this larger pull that is present with those two characters. A lot of that is Obi-1's own history, the relationship to the Jedi order, the way that if you are forced sensitive and are brought in as a young paduan, as a youngling, you're taken away from your own family,

then you find this new family. I think this is also something that we should talk about more with Logan and Lara because with mutants, this idea of like isolation and then found family and then isolation and this kind of seesawing back and forth between fellowship and feeling very, very alone and how that can define

and a lone wolf and cob story like the one that Logan and Lara go on in Logan? What a fucking great movie. We watched that the other night. A incredible film. Just like an all-timer. Awesome.

But for Obi-1... I like wept for the last. It is just beautiful. Yeah. For Obi-1, there's so much of this that is also about this larger defining thing in his life and his experience, which is how he feels that he failed Anakin

and failed Padme. And so when you get a moment in the finale between Obi-1 and Little Leia. And like, there's something earlier in the finale where he says, you know,

she wants the blaster, he's given her the holster, right? It's like, you're 10 years old, but you won't always be that element of time and characters who are at different stages in their life

and the way that that shapes their relative perspective is always so delicious. And then like that beautiful moment when they're saying goodbye at the end and he's telling her, about her parents. You are wise, discerning, kind-hearted.

These are qualities that came from your mother, but you were passionate, fearless, forthright. These are gifts from your father. Like, the history that one character in that pairing is aware of, that the other isn't. And how is that parceled out and shared over time? I love that part of a lone wolf and cub story, too. And something that's so interesting about Obi-One is, like,

unlike the hound or other reluctant daddies who are, brought in because who are brought in to protect something against their better judgment or against their desire to be alone, Obi-1 is like a much more like virtuous, you know, person. He wants to protect Leah. But the inner conflict around him is around that idea of shame, which we're going to come back to. But there is shame, a sense of failure in the past, and how that relates to what he can heal inside himself. An entire life of indoctrination from the Jedi order telling you you can't form attachments. Super cool organization.

I want to talk briefly about this idea of the replacement goalfish. And while I do, I want to shout out TVTropes.com, a website that I've used for eons. One of the greatest things ever existed. TV Troops is up there with Wikipedia as the most essential resources on the internet. It's like TV Troops, Wikipedia, baseball reference. That's my holy trinity. I know for you two, baseball reference is not. number three for you.

Number one. That's also the one that you visit the most. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, Lostpedia, actually. I'll put LostPedia up there. That's like one of the greatest wikis that ever existed. But TV tropes. I really wanted you to say like True Media and then just drop some deep cut NFL stat on me.

Shout out True Media. Someday. Another great one. Someday. This idea of the replacement goldfish is when, you know, literally when you flush a goldfish down the toilet and you put another one in the bowl and hope your kid doesn't notice, right? But in the idea of storytelling, you've lost a wife, a dog, a child, a something, and you find something else replaced it. John Wick finds another dog at the end of

first John Wick movie, right? Ellie, in Last of Us, we meet one daughter for Joel at the beginning of an episode, and we meet another potential daughter for him at the end of the first episode. So Ellie falls into replacement goldfish territory for sure. But another primo example is 11 in Stranger Things, because Hopper has lost a child and he finds 11. I cried putting this clip together. We'll see if I cry again.

Steve, will you play this clip, please? Feelings. The truth is, for so long, I'd forgotten what those even were. I've been stuck in one place in a cave. you might say, a deep dark cave. And then I left some egos out in the woods and you came into my life. And for the first time, in a long time,

I started to feel things again. I started to feel happy. The heart-wrenching. Hoppern-11 is not like your stereotypical, we're on the road together, lone wolf and cub story, but like think about where we meet Hopper at the beginning of Stranger Things, like, voraciously self-medicating, isolating. He is in the community, but he is not really there.

Yeah. And the way in which shut himself off from the world. Right. And 11 being a vulnerable thing, a magical McGuffin, like all these things at once. And the way in which their time in the cabin together cracks him open in new ways as he as he outlines here and opens him up to a potential relationship with Joyce. Like all these things that it opens him up for is why I think that qualifies under this trope. Anything else I want to say about Hop?

Love, love that quote. I love Hop. I love the Hop 11 storyline, as you know. And I love that idea that and I love the way that the character in the show engaged with that idea, that there's not a part of when, 11 is reading Hopper's letter when they are going through the challenges in their relationship, what it means to grow up to be a teenager, especially if Medine is hunting you. It's not easy, but it's not about it can't, you can't allow it to be about the coded knock on the door and the radio signals because you're only inside that cabin. you have to allow yourself to forge relationships and find love,

even if that means that you're going to experience that kind of like debilitating, devastating, truly, truly, truly life-altering loss and pain one day, which is something that both of those characters go through. And that is a thing that Hopper was not capable of feeling and actively, like, rebelled against and rejected, that the hurt is good because, as he said, as he'll say to 11, like, it's how you know you're alive. And that's just such a

vulnerability. That's a vulnerability. That's an important and crucial vulnerability, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To, like, the way in which we meet Hopper and he is so actively numbing himself to any sort of feeling, to moving towards allowing himself to be open to those vulnerabilities,

to then moving towards understanding that that pain and that vulnerability is what makes life worth living. That that is the crux of life. The last thing I was saying on the cup front is that, And we've already mentioned this, like, sometimes a cup is not a young child, but, you know, a young stand-up comedian or a young-ish stand-up comedian. The companion and Doctor Who, I think, is a really key example of this. Like, if you're not familiar with Doctor Who, the Doctor Who is this, like, huge, powerful being travels through time and space and always has, usually a young woman.

We can unpack that later. Companion with him. who he asked to protect, a human, right? He is a time lord. He's an alien time lord who can do all this shit. And there is a vulnerable little human in the box of him. And that is important for us as viewers to have. Humanizes him.

We'll talk about all that stuff later. But like love interests, non-combat support classes, if you want to talk about in terms of D&D. If you think about something like The Witcher, there is a child character who needs taking care of in The Witcher. But I would say a character like Jascare, who's the, you know,

the bard is much more fits into this trope, this sort of, again, it's like sunshine and storm cloud, right? Like, that's the dynamic that we're talking about here on the road. Okay. Those are our wolves and our cups. The next question is B'alli, Bwai, Mallory,

why do we do this? And we've been answering this as we go along, you know, here and there. As you already mentioned, we love a character on an arc. We love a character who's on the move emotionally. It's why some of our favorite characters are problematic faves like Sawyer and Lost or Jamie Lannister. These are guys who start at the bottom now or here

sort of thing that we can grow with that idea of vulnerability, which we'll come back to time and time again, is so important. And that idea of the loner character is not compelling in isolation. The example that I think about all the time when I think about this

from a storytelling point of view, This is off the core lone wolf and cub trope. But I think about the born identity, which I think is a perfect film. But how important that film, how important the character of Marie is to that journey of Jason Bourne? Because once Marie is no longer in the franchise, which happens pretty quickly, I'm less compelled spending time alone when Jason Bourne as he roams around trying to figure shit out. But in the first film, when he has Marie to bounce off of and protect, that that is such a much more compelling. It invites us inside this loner character. It's so hard to tell a loner story without this supplemental figure.

This makes me think of a quote that I love from the book, How Fiction Works by James Wood, which is another great read, and that is primarily interested in the novel. as a form, the novel as an intention, but a lot of the areas of examination apply to any form of storytelling. And one of the quotes from the section on character is we can tell a great deal from a character by how he talks and whom he talks to, how he bumps up against the world.

People, as Edith Wharton said, are like other people's estates. We only know of them what a butt's, our own. This idea, end quote, this idea that you definitionally, fundamentally, philosophically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually can only understand the pieces of somebody that you see. And so you can't understand the full sense of self in a vacuum, only in relation to other characters. And that doesn't mean that it's not rich and rewarding and interesting to spend time alone with characters.

But there is an aspect to who that character is that they only get to see about themselves and we only get to see about them if we're looking through somebody else's eyes. I love that. And I love the word of butts. Same. Yeah. Boy, Edith Wharton, man, you big Ethan Fromehead? Yeah.

I do. I love Ethan Frome. Same. I keep coming back to that Mandalorian armor as a really great symbol for this like sort of calcified crust that a lot of these characters form around themselves to protect themselves because they have experienced some kind of trauma that has put them in this loner space, right? And so that idea of vulnerability, which we've mentioned a couple times, is so key. My palani, Diane Rich, who I mentioned earlier, wrote this great book called How Story Works that I really recommend. and something that Lonnie laid out for me when she was actually on the lost podcast that I did, talking about Argyz Sawyer, she was talking about this idea of vulnerability, vulnerability and connection,

that abutting, if you will, right? This idea of the, it is so, we are thirsty for connection as humans, and we are thirsty to understand vulnerabilities as a way into connection. And Lonnie laid out these four key aspects of vulnerability, which I love. Fear, identity, love, and shame. And shame we already talked about when it comes to Obi-Wan. But also identity when it comes to Obi-Wan, because, like, as I was a Jedi, now who am I? Like an example that Lonnie brings up in her book for identity, that identity vulnerability

is like a nun who decides she no longer believes in God. but like someone who has had a major, you know, for lack of better word, come to Jesus' moment about a core creed or credo, which we're going to talk about a little bit, a core sense of their identity. Fear is pretty easy, and I identify. Love makes you vulnerable, all those sort of stuff. Because Lonnie likes to love to talk about Brne Brown, who's like an incredible thinker of human and the way that we all work.

I want to watching this Bray Brown like TED Talk on vulnerability, which I really, really really recommend. But I was like, this is a normal thing to do on a Tuesday afternoon. But I wanted to pull out this Bray Brown quote about vulnerability that I really love. She says, shame, fear of disconnection, is there something about me that if other people knew it or see it, that I won't be worthy of connection? No one wants to talk about it. The less you talk about it, the more you have it. That's shame. And shame as a core principle to a lot of these loaners. There's something that has happened that has driven them out of society, usually by their own doing. You know, and there's some core thing that they think is unknowable and unlovable about them.

And it takes the extreme vulnerability of something else like a cub to get them to open that back up. I want to talk about something from Lonnie's book that she wrote about vulnerability that I thought was so interesting. and as it pertains to a character like Joel, Joel who seems like the kind of person who doesn't want to talk about the bad things that have happened to him. And that is how often we are informed about vulnerabilities for a character like a Joel.

Ellie says your watch is broken and he doesn't say, let me tell you why he closes his eyes. Right, exactly. So Lonnie's example here is the office, the American office, the pilot of the American office, office, and it's just such a good example that I just want to read it out to you, even though

this is nothing to do with lone wolf and cub. It has to do with how we understand vulnerability. Lonnie writes, we've learned a couple things about vulnerability. It's how people connect and no one wants to talk about theirs. Most of the time, no one wants to even think about theirs. With that being the case, how can you write about vulnerability and make it seem genuine? Good question. And the answer lies in the skilled use of negative space.

let's go to the example of a salesman who's in love with the office receptionist who is engaged to a guy who works in the warehouse. Intrepid readers will have identified this example as inspired by the American version of the sitcom The Office. If you watch the pilot episode, you see that Jim never tells us that he's in love with Pam. In fact, we won't hear him admit that for some time, but we know immediately how. First, we see that Jim and Pan have fun together at the office, as he is often at the front desk laughing with her. Later we see an interview where Jim mentions Pam's favorite flavor of yogurt. In Pam's interview, she blushes and looks away when she learned that he guessed correctly. Toward the end of that episode, Pam's fiancé Roy shows up to take her home after work.

Jim is barely able to look at Roy. He hangs his head while the two men stand at the front desk, awkwardly waiting for Pam to return from doing her last task. Then in another interview, we see Jim repeat a question asked of him by the documentary crew. Does he think he will be invited to the wedding? He doesn't answer. That's negative space. One of the best ways to draw your reader in is to give them negative space in which to intuit what is happening based on what is not being textually said or acknowledged.

You hinted vulnerability by pushing your character towards something and then watching them actively walk around it. The space your character avoids gives us a big clue as to where their vulnerability is. I call those clues vulnerability markers. So that question, I love, I mean, Lonnie's so smart talking about story. her book, How Story Works is you can, if you don't mind engaging in the Bezos space is like free to read and Kindle, I really recommend it. But like, that question of vulnerability and shame as it relates to these characters that we're talking about here. And what's even more brilliant is like when you can tie the character's vulnerability to their goal. So for the last of us, Joel's major vulnerability and shame and whatever is that.

he could not protect his daughter, right? The tragedy of losing his daughter and the fact that he said, I'm going to protect you, this is, I'm, you know, actively. I got you, I got you, you're safe. Don't look anywhere else, look at me. And he couldn't. And now his goal, as is laid out in the first episode of The Last of Us,

is to protect this new girl. That is strong, strong storytelling connections, you know? That's just fantastic. What an exceptional passage from Lonnie's book there that made me think of Logan and Lara again. And where we find Wolverine in the film, Logan, where we find Charles, what we're learning about Laura,

what we're learning about these experiments, and the negative space comments in particular because there are clues, there are hints, there are signifiers of what has happened in this missing time. but whether it's the Westchester incident for Charles or exactly what the adamantium is doing inside of Logan's body. It's as much, our pathway to discovery there

is as much about what they won't say or won't tell us or won't acknowledge or can't acknowledge as what they can and do. And so where does that take us and how does that then amplify the power of the lone wolf cub relationship with Logan and Lara? you go to the Munson home

and you have what is one of my favorite lines from any X-Men story and favorite moments in a superhero movie when Logan is putting Charles to bed and Charles says to him you know Logan this is what life looks like a home people who love each other

safe place you should take a moment and feel it and that that's what you were just saying Joe the vulnerability, the fear, the shame, the shame of people you have failed before, of confronting things that have gone wrong, and the fear of allowing yourself

to forge that connection with somebody else again. I love forging connections with you, Mallory. Same, bud. Brings me such joy. Another function of the cub here is to anchor a lone wolf to their own humanity, right? If you're alone too long, it's a dangerous thing.

And again, as I said before, I'm not going to get too much into the Doctor Who of it all, but there is this recurring idea of the doctor has a companion because the doctor should not travel alone because the doctor is extremely powerful. And without someone there with him, things can get dangerous. So I just wanted to listen to one of my favorite underlinings of this concept from my favorite companion, Donna Noble, who we will talk about at length you and I in the future. Steve, we play this Doctor Who clip for me, please. Well, you could always come with me.

Okay. I can't. No, that's fine. That place was flooding and burning, and they were dying, and you stood there like a stranger. And then you made it snow. I mean, you scared me to death. I'll tell you what I will do, though.

Christmas dinner. Oh, come on. I don't do that sort of thing. Am I ever going to see you again? If I'm lucky. Just Promise me one thing Find someone

I don't need anyone Yes you do Because sometimes I think you need someone to stop you Sometimes I think you need someone to stop you It's really sad And then him saying yeah Oh my God I'm so excited for you to get a deductor That would be Mallory in the future

The Near Future The Near Future new future. The last, one of the last things I want to touch upon is this idea of like what's worth fighting for you. And I've talked about this a lot as it pertains to Lord of the Rings, Rings of Power, and or this idea of like a home that quote you just read, you know, that Charles says and Logan is a perfect example, what is your home and what is worth defending? And we talk about that good tilled earth at the shire. We talk about getting to know Farix and the people of Farrix and what is worth protecting. And a child, a vulnerable thing is such an easy way to show the audience something

worth protecting. And it can give an excuse for a story as in Lone Wolf and Cub for like almost gut-churning violence because like what wouldn't we do to protect a child? And so a character, a lone wolf can do extremely horrible things. But if they do it in defense of a child, we as an audience are inclined to be like, well, that was justified. That was fine. If you want to understand one of the core influences for the arterial spray you've seen throughout Tarantino movies, why? Yeah.

Watch Lone Wolf and Cubs. I, the Goodtilder, the Shire, that idea of home, it's so beautiful. And it's interesting to think, too, then, of like another classic Tolkien idea and Tolkienism that we return to a lot, which is, of course, not all those who wander are lost. and how this trope can really showcase that home isn't just a place. It doesn't have to be that permanence. That for the wanderer, for the traveler, you can forge that sense of home out in the wilderness

because you build it with somebody else. And I just, I think, again, that way that, like, the idea of the quest and that sense of purpose, and maybe there's something meandering and unknown and unknowable, and maybe there's something very focused and deterministic about it. It doesn't really matter. You can explore those ideas no matter who the particular people are. And like I, you know, I don't know who Donna is.

I've never said, like, but I'm like in tears listening to that because I understand something that is like universal and true just from hearing that clip. And that that's an amazing thing because, you know, one of the things that obviously we love so much about the stories that we cherish is like you build up that time. These people, these characters, these fictional creations, like ink on paper, pixels on your screen, become real to you because they've been with you for hours and days and months and years of your life. That was 30 seconds. But I felt something because it's tapping into something that is just fundamental about the nature of that connection.

Back to Who is so good. I'm so excited. I can't wait. I wanted to mention one more email we got from listener. We got an email from Andrew who wrote a great essay about Lone Wolf and Cub on sort of like in his own platform that he sent over for us to look at. But he mentioned, he highlighted a couple different tropes that sort of shelter under this umbrella. This idea of the force proximity trope, we've talked about this.

Like, Hum for the World of People is a good example of that. But like there's so many stories about like some people who are like literally chained together. They're forced together. Their personalities clash. And those fireworks and those sparks, you know, provide entertainment for the viewer. The idea that a lone wolf and cub story can provide education and growth for the lone wolf, but also provide a coming-of-age story for the cub as well at the same time, which is really interesting. And then he pointed out something about, you know, from video game storytelling that I thought was really interesting, you know, as we're talking about Last of Us.

He says, video games have found particular success with this dynamic and trope, given how it forces characters to care about a character other than their avatar. In Tell Telltale series, The Walking Dead game, the most jar. and gameplay moments occur when Lee's actions earn direct disapproval from young Clementine. I restarted that game so many times. So, like, I think God of War is another, like, you know, recent example of a really popular game. Like, Last of Us, this idea of, like, you as a player, and then this other thing that is part of the story gives meaning to your quest and your adventure.

So. Let's talk about parenting your inner child. Please. Is this therapy or this is this a podcast? Who knows? Why not both? Why not both? Let's go back to our guy, Obi-Wan.

You already mentioned, like, the ending moment when he's talking about Leah's parents. But there's this earlier moment where he's talking about his family. And what was taken from him as a child when he was put into the Jedi Order. Steve, will you play this verse, please? Are you my real father? I wish I could say I was. But no, I'm not. Sometimes I tried to imagine when he was alive.

I know that feeling As Jedi We're taken from our families When we're very young I still have glimpses Flashes really My mother's shawl My father's hands

I remember a baby A baby Yes I think I had a brother I really don't remember him I wish I did Then I joined the Jedi And I got a new family Just like you

Hashtag make OB2 happen. I got a new family just like you. The Jedi families are really family. Let's be clear, Obi-1. You know, but so this is a moment in the Obi-1 series that like set the internet of flame because we're like Obi-1 canobi had a brother, you know, OB-2-Kanobi. What the hell?

Right? But, you know, but the deeper thing at play here is this idea of like him relating to her, right? Her solitude, her loneliness, her isolation in the world. and how that happened to him and how can I prevent that? I'm going to flag this now so you can go get to your devices. There's a spoiler coming for Logan. So this is the Logan spoiler that's coming up.

I'm going to talk about Station 11 for a second while you guys find your devices. That concept of I remember damage, which is so recurring in Station 11. Yes. These generations, we talked about this when we talked about Last of Us, the generations who, when you have a post-apocalyptic story, We're not talking about Logan yet.

When you have a post-apocalyptic story and you've got the people who remember what it was like before the apocalypse, the people who were kids when it happened, and then the kids who never knew what it was like before. And that sort of cycle of damage and trying to shield a child from a traumatic thing that happened to you. Here comes a spoiler for Logan. Are you ready? Here we go. It's coming. Okay.

There's also that idea of trying to prevent this cub. If you're the lone wolf, this is not on the mind of our titular lone wolf and cub, but like for other lone wolves and their cubs, prevent that child from becoming like you. And that ties back to that shame and vulnerability. And that brings us to the end of Logan, which is so upsetting. Steve, will you make me cry by playing this clip, please? Thank you.

They'll keep coming. You don't have to fight anymore. We're still talking about Logan. I include a little clip. I include that full clip because So this is what it feels like. Lion always gets to me in there because, again, we're still talking about Logan.

If you have skipped ahead and you're still hearing of talking. A surface read of that is, so this is what it feels like to die, to have an injury you can't heal from, blah, blah. But I also always, I always interpreted that as like this is what it feels like to really love someone or to feel like a father or whatever. Absolutely.

Absolutely. Charles told him, let yourself feel it. devastating. All right. Heart wrenching. Little Ira. Crushing it. Yeah.

Daphne Kean's so good. It's amazing in that movie. The hound and aria is another, like this idea of her idea of what it is to be a knight and the way in which the hound like sort of disabuser of that idea, I think is a really interesting dynamic to put into the mix there. Which brings us to this idea of the code, right? So so often when we meet these characters, as we already mentioned, something traumatic has happened and is profoundly like shaken their idea in a core code or credo. Let's say an apocalypse happens. And so your idea, your core understanding of how society functions is shaken to its core.

But speaking of the hound, as we were, the hound has abandoned his role as the king's dog in the Battle of Blackwater. Fuck the king, right? You know, fuck this. I'm out of here. We hear it again crucially at the beginning. That's in season two.

We hear it again crucially at the beginning of season four. And this is an important moment because it is an important moment as the hound is talking about the credo that he left behind. At the same time, Aria is being threatened right next to him by that piece of it, Pollyver. So Steve, will you play this for us, please? Fuck the king. I heard that Geoffrey's dog

had tucked tail and run from the Battle of the Blackwater. I didn't believe it. But here you are. Here I am. Bring me one of those chickens. Tell you what. We'll trade you. One of our little chickens for one of yours.

Give us a go at your friend. Lowell there. Likes them a bit broken in. You're a talker. Listening to talkers makes me thirsty and hungry. Then I'll take two chickens. You don't seem to understand the situation. I understand that if any more words come pouring out your cut mouth,

I'm going to have to eat every fucking chicken in this room. You lived your life for the king. You're going to die for some chickens. Someone is. Alzheimer. I mean, an iconic scene. Unreal. I was so excited that I got to use the chicken scene for this.

But if you rewatch that scene, it's so interesting to watch Masey Williams' Aria because she's sitting there, there's like, she's deeply worried and uncertain of the situation they found in it. There's another young woman, the innkeeper's daughter who's being, like, fondled by these creeps, you know, like, all this stuff is happening.

She's got some fear. And then there's just this moment where her eyes turn really cold because she knows that the hound is, like, not going to abandon her. this is the powerful person that she has on her side her eyes just go like slate like just ice it's a big part of like

the way in which again this is like an unholy union the hound in aria I would say and what follows here is a very significant kill for aria as she slowly shoves needle into the throat of Maybe I'll pick my teeth with it. So upsetting.

But the evolution of their relationship, where they're just sort of like, something fundamentally changes here. Yes. Between I would run away from you at any given opportunity to, I understand that I could have met a man like Palliver on the road, but I met you. And however self-interested you might be,

you're not going to do this to me. Their particular relationship, is one of the most interesting manifestations of this trope and, you know, one of my favorites in recent years. Just the variance seen to scene with them, and I think like the fact that they start off really despise, actively despising each other, like the idea of, again, your protector being someone

who you hate and mistrust and who has caused real harm, think back to Micah, think back to the butcher's, boy is the source actually directly and specifically of some horrific defining thing in your life and like that you could move forward into these degrees and gentle steps and stages of partnership and eventual friendship even still tied in with all of that other icky complicated stuff with each other with that same person is remarkable and like if you think about The power of a kill is such an interesting one because you have obviously like the season, you know, the season one, the initial stabbing of the stable boy is self-preservation. I have no choice. I'm acting on instinct. I need to flee. Stick them with the point in. Right. You go through the season two kills and using joccan and misusing the power of those wishes, of those kills at Heron Hall with the tickler and something like Lorsch and particularly, you know, the Wolfsbane Dark of like, well, I've really fucked up. and my neck is on the line, so I have to act in a hurried fashion here.

The escape with the her and hall guards, etc. You think about a moment with the hound and aria at the end of season three after the red wedding. The brink of being reunited with your family, thinking that finally it will all be okay, and then seeing Rob Stark's Game of Thrones spoiler body, is wolf's head stitched onto it, and then hearing these soldiers that you pass by, in the woods bragging by their fire about what they've done, the way that Aria

stabs that guy to death, the hunger and the desperation, and the way that the hound asser is that the first man, you've killed, and she says, the first man. And what's his request is not, please don't do that. It's give me a heads up next time. And so you move into the polyver scene,

and even though she jets out from by, behind the bush into the inn on a schedule that the hound might not have liked, there's a two-hander. Yeah. Developing another related trope, right, developing between them in that sequence. And there is a methodical nature to aria's kill of Polyver that even though she despises the hound actively at this point is something she has absorbed from him and is learning from him. And then you get to like a moment later with the stabbing roars and bite her, the stabbing. grabbing in the heart, like, you're paying attention.

You're a good pupil. You've listened. Like, think of all of those moments between them where the thing that they're doing is horrific. Like you said, that really, like kind of stomach churning violence. But with a shocking and thus almost more impactful tenderness to it, like, what happens when Briand finds them? The moment, and Brianna is a character we are rooting for. We want Aria and Priyand to beat again.

Yeah. But when Sandor Klegane says to Brian, there's no safety, you dumb bitch, if you don't know that by now, you're the wrong one to watch over her. That is a seismic shift in his character. And that tells us that he is learning something from Aria just as much as she is learning something from him. Would he have taken Sanzah and tried to protect Sanzah? Did he want to do that? Did he beg Sonsa to go with him?

Yes. But there's something particular specific about the Aria Hound bond that is distinct from what that other relationship was and is. And again, like this is so beautifully laid out, Mallory, I love to talk about Thrones with you any day of the week. Again, it's that pull towards the dark, right? Like, think, like, all of Aria's dark mentors that she has along the way, right? Think about, like, if it had been Brienne from the start with Aria. Right. Like she still would be an incredibly impressive fighter.

We get the thrill of watching them duel in like a later season, right? Yeah. But those are different lessons she would have learned than what she learned from the hound or the House of Black and White, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. You know, or from Jack and, et cetera, or Tywin. Absolutely. And like that idea of that you mentioned earlier of wanting to prevent the cop, the wolf wanting to prevent the cup from turning into a version of them. that's like very present in the aria hound relationship too because I am loath and reluctant to quote

from season eight episodes, The Bells, ever? No, but it's important for the aria hound. However, from this particular relationship, you know, when he says to her, when they're in there, I'd keep and he says to her, you think you've wanted revenge a long time? I've been after it all my life. It's all I care about.

Look at me. Look at me. You want to be like me. You come with me. You die. don't be like me. Don't allow yourself. Even though we have traveled this path together,

even though we have taught each other things and learned things from each other, do not allow yourself. The real true lesson and gift I can give you is telling you not to be like me. Yes. Huge. Thrones.

Thrones. Sheesh. That idea. So like the hound, the hound abandoning his identity as the king's dog, right? There's so many examples. of this, right?

You already mentioned Obi-One, the dissolution of the Jedi order. Mando dealing with, like, you know, everything was happening with the fall of Mindler

and, like, their, they're, like, weird little covert identity, right? Logan and the other mutants being wiped out. You mentioned that already.

You know, like, this idea of, like, someone who's been stranded by some sort of community or identity that was once the spine of who they were, then makes,

their role as protector their credo. Yes. That becomes their code. That becomes their identity. Yes. I've got this to do. Absolutely. Absolutely.

And those are all great examples. I think with Mando, again, he was a foundling. He was a Mandalorian foundling. But if we think about the history of Mandelor, something that we will certainly be exploring more clearly based on the trailers in season three of the Mandalorian. Ever heard of it?

The idea of Mandelor being a place. that like tore itself apart. And a lot of that was outside forces, of course, right? Dating back to the, the, the, the, the tension in the history between the Jedi and the Mandalrians, Amaf Gideon, the purge, all of that. But the civil strife that defines the history of Mandelor, the bloody history of Mandelor, we look at something like the initial interactions between Din and a character like Boca Tan, and the way that this idea of like the Children of the Watch is discussed as

this like a thing that Din only understood one way in a character who we think of essential to Mandalorian canon and lore is like, let me, I've got some notes on your entire life and everything everyone has ever told you. And so then you apply that to like, what is Din able to see and new? And how does Grogu help with that? And how does something that he is doing because of that creed, because of that charge from the armor, become something over time that is but just specifically and wholly about his own bond and connection. And like, I love the moment in season two where Mando parrots back Mof Gideon's words to him

from the prior showdown from the end of season one where Moth Gideon makes this big stand, right? This great stand. You have something I want. And like the thrill of it, when we see the Mando hologram pop up and we get to hear Dins say to Moth Gideon as he is trying to find

Grogu again, you have something I want. You may think you have some idea what you were a possession of, but you are, do not, soon he will be back with me and then the emotion

in Pedro Pascal's voice when he says, he means more to me than you will ever know. When Mav Gideon said that, it's because he wants his blood. He wants his, like, force powers.

He's a mid-chlorian. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And for Dinn, it's because the bond that he has was Sweet Baby, B. Grobo has like fundamentally and foundationally changed something about his entire existence. And that brings us to this other really important part of this, which is the idea of search for meaning. It's not just like a credo or a code or a lar or a sense of identity, but like, why are we here?

What are we doing? Jonathan Gatchell, in that storytelling animal book calls humans meaning-seeking machines. There's this really interesting quote from that book on meaning that he writes, humans invent gods to give order and meaning to existence. Humans are born curious and they must have answers to the big unanswerable questions. Why am I here? Who made me? Where does the sun go at night? Why does giving birth hurt? What happens to quote unquote, me after I die, not my raggedy old carcass, but me, that endlessly chattering presence inside my skull? End quote. And so you and I are on this podcast. We don't have kids. I don't think you have to have kids to have meaning. but I do know that so many people have found meaning in caring for children or at least like vulnerable individuals

and that I did that time and landish idea of legacy. Your legacy is your, are your children, are these cubs, you know, like is this thing. And so like I just love this idea that a loner crusted up in his little shell of Bessgar armor or otherwise, you know, like a little pill bug. rolled up and protected from the world, rolling around without a purpose, without meaning, without a code, without credo, without understanding. And then here comes this little thing to pry them open and give them purpose, meaning, understanding of self, erasure of shame, the reward of being vulnerable around something

vulnerable, all of that sort of stuff. Beautiful. We're almost done. We're wrapping. I don't want to stop. We have got more things to say. I love this idea of what you are in the dark. That trope is something I definitely want to think more about.

I feel like I only have a surface understanding of it. But like an example I found was in Goblet of Fire when Harry Potter has, I think, a couple chances to either abandon Cedric Diggery or to help him. And no one would know if he abandoned Cedric. And so what you are in the dark is how you behave when no one will know or judge or blame you if you did otherwise. If Harry just kept his eye on the prize of the cup, I mean, first of all, Cedric would probably stole me alive, let's just say. But together, because he was like, because there's a true test of his medal, right? No one can see him, but he does what's right. And the way in which that trope is tested in a lone wolf and cub scenario is oftentimes, I mean, you think about Mando.

Mando bringing that bounty in is what he was supposed to do and no one would have known if he had just done his job. But even more so, there are all these moments out on the road in front of these small cubs where the cub doesn't know to judge or to tell you what's right or wrong or whatever. You're just doing what's right

because you have an internal compass. And that to us shows us who these characters are. are often, again, when that compass pulls them towards the light, pulls them true north, when they were heading towards a dark and southerly place, not to use the Tolkien orientation of good and evil. Mal, anything you want to say about what you are in the dark? Now I'm thinking about the end of Goblet of Fire. Boy, what a stretch, my goodness.

No, I mean, it's... My boy! Sorry. Oh, poor Amos Stigri. That's a heart wrenching one. That is a sad one. Remember, Cedric Diggory.

It's a great point. You know, that idea of like Mando's starting at, I can bring you in warmer. I can bring you in cold place, which is like the embodiment of the task, this utilitarian existence that is about mission execution. And then you have that moral check or these eyes upon you.

I mean, the moment, it's just amazing to think about. We didn't know. Can't ever stop saying this. We didn't know we were getting Baby Yoda. We didn't know we were getting a girl. And IG11's neural harness has been shattered to smithereens at that point

by Blastorbolts. And it's just that little claw reaching up from his little cub cradle. And Mando could have done anything. Anything. But he made the choice that he made. And that's just an amazing thing. So wonderful.

I, you know, you, you had a, you had an Eli Wiesel quote in our outline. Yeah. And I had, I had been thinking about another one, one of his famous ones about indifference. And that idea of like the opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference and how central that is to the lone wolf and cub trope too. And why, specifically why it works on us, specifically why it resonates with us. because like the presence of the cub refuses

to allow the wolf to be indifferent. And like you think about I think it's difficult. We've obviously talked about Thrones a lot, but it is difficult to talk about wolves and not think about obviously dire wolves, but like thinking about a moment like Ariansan Sanzah quoting Ned

and saying, you know, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives and how that seems maybe like it's a challenge to lone wolf and cub or a different kind of thing, but how it really isn't, how they're one in the same,

because, like, sure, we're saying the words lone wolf, but once you have a cub, what are you? You're a pack. The armor says to Mando, you are a clan of two,

right? It only takes two to make a pack, a clan, whatever. The Ely Voiselle quote that I skip past because, you know, we have a lot to talk about, but I really do love it.

Is God made man because he loves stories? I just love the idea of like, I don't believe in God, but if I did, the idea of like God just like sitting up there being like, oh, my stories are on. What are the messy humans up to this week? And then Sam S. Mel can go on the watch and say, Chris and Andy, instead of just making fun of you guys this week for saying that you just want to watch your stories, I'm going to

make fun of God for doing that. I mean, he would. He would. Just everyone's on the Ringer podcast network all the time. All right. Last one of least, it's the iconic. I didn't save him. He saved me.

Idea around lone wolf and cub. Let's start with our guy, our guy, Logan and Lara. No major spoiler here. This is earlier in the story, Steve. Squid looking at me. You're not going to. Logan friendly. You are dying.

You want to die. Charles Stoney. What else do you tell you? Do not let you. I just, I'm sorry, I just like really love that moment. He's like, he's like passing out at the wheel, you know what I mean? Like, it's just a ultimate gruff. I cannot accept help moment for Logan.

And here is this girl here to try to save him, to hold on to him. I also have another really important key quote. And Mallory, this is a dear love of yours, so I thought I would include it. Steve, will you play this clip from Lego Batman, please? You're okay, Batman? You seem the opposite of Stern. Yeah, I'm fine. It's just watching you out there.

It was like the world wasn't all darkness anymore. For a brief moment, I could have sworn I felt something. That feeling is pride, sir. You're right. I am super proud. of myself for being such a good teacher, obviously. What a remarkable film. Cinema classic.

Love it. Early flag of the Station 11 is spoiler alert upcoming. But I do want to talk a little bit about more Batman as you draw off your hands and locate your device. The Bat family, the found family trope of the Batman is like a very long core part of the bad story. But the particular Batman and Robin, and specifically this Batman and Robin is just such a, because the core element of Lego Batman is so darkness, no parents, you know, it's just like the introduction of this Robin as voiced by Michael Serra, who is the epitome of the like sort of

bouncy, will not take no for an answer kind of ward that you do or do not want if you're Batman. I just, I, I love this. There's more elements to the the Bat family in that movie, but the scene with Batman at Rob, it's pretty great. What an incredibly moving film. Leto Batman is. Sincerely. It's great.

All right. So, spoiler for Station 11. Upcoming. It's coming. You already mentioned the bells and Aria and the Hound, and I'm so glad you did, because like, when you tell these stories in a long form over time, and we can see the kid grow up

and the kid learn how to take care of the loan or them to meet each other at a different phase in their life. It just brings more profundity to this concept of lone wolf and cup. So still talking about Station 11 if you're checking in. Patrick Somerville talked at length about how this idea of Station 11 is like a metaphor

for parenting, the fear that Jeevan feels when he is put in charge of Kirsten here. The big spoiler, I think, station 11 that is worth protecting is like the tension of like wills jevin and kirsten find each other again right yep still talk about station 11 and they do so and then this is the i mean they have their emotional hug while midnight trade to Georgia is playing the background and i cry and i cry this is the this is the moment that i think about all the time and sometimes i just say it to myself um i cannot underscore how much i love station 11 uh steve will you play this clip of jevin and adult

Kirsten meeting again after all this time. Raising kids is hard. You know, you're going out of sink. It's like a yo-yo. You love them, but you get angry. You scare them, they run away. I was never scared with you.

I was always scared. I met this girl. I said I'd walk her home. Cold. She forgot her key. You walked her home. Still talking about Station 11. think about you walked her home and the way that line is delivered all the time and what it means.

What does that mean to make that choice that she even did not have to do that, right? That Kirsten was someone he did not know. And he decided to walk her home. And then, again, what you do in the dark, when he gets her to the door, he gets her home, no one's home. He could have left her there. He did what he was supposed to do and he kept her with him. You know what I mean?

Like he keeps making these choices. This idea of that admission of being afraid is this ultimate vulnerable moment for Jeevan and the reward of it. But I was afraid all the time. And then to hear from Kirsten that she wasn't afraid with him that he did his job as protector and made her not afraid.

It's so rewarding. I can't think of anything more rewarding than the end of that show. Anything you want to say about Jeevan and Kirsten? It's just so wonderful and moving. And I think deeply profound, you know, like, remember when you were a kid and you would see a teacher at the mall or something like that? And it would just floor you.

And you would think, how could this person who only exists in this one context for me be in this other place? And then you start to realize, well, this person has their entire life. Like, and some of that is their interior life. And some of that is the life that they live with other people. And I don't get to see that. And then if I do, I get to learn something new about them. And when you're really young, your parents, your family members, friends, babysitters,

neighbors, like, whatever the case may be, people who are in some way caring for you, like you think so much about how you rely on them. And then you get to the point in your life where you just want to be free to make your own choices and your own mistakes and you start to resent the smothering and the dothes. doting. And the moment where you realize that they were as afraid for you, but also for themselves, as you were when you were small, is truly one of the great awakenings that you have when you're growing up. And to see Jeevan and Kirsten get to talk about that and share that and explore that with each other is just a really remarkable thing. The way that, again, still talking about

The way that Kirsten is like the making of Jeevan as a human, right? Because then he becomes this like pillar of the community, this doctor, this caregiver. Caregiving is what he becomes. A dad, you know, many times over, sure, a loving partner, sure, but also like caring for everyone within, you know, a boat ride away. Like, you know, and he's just like caring for everyone. So huge, huge, huge, huge, huge, huge story that is very important to me. But that's that pull towards the light. So let's just circle back one more time and mention this idea of the flip side of the darker side of the lone orphaned cub, which is that pull towards the dark, which is what we're a little worried that Last of Us. Again, we don't know. We don't know. Might be what Last of Us is head. I mean, I feel like Craig Mason is trying to protect us from that, like, DeNaris Heeltern, we're all surprised by giving us, like, some of these things very early on.

Yes. Like, don't think. The co-creator of the show saying love conquers all and that's problematic. is notable. For sure. Something we should think about. Also, it's so funny. And in the lone wolf and cub manga, which I was rereading, as I mentioned, they keep

mentioning Sun Tzu, the Art of War, like, over and over and over again, and the way in which this particular dynamic feeds into the Art of War. And there's this one key quote from the Art of War, regard your soldiers as your children, and they will follow you into the deepest valleys. Look on them as your own beloved sons, and they will stand by you even unto death. Problematic. Worrysome. Worrysome. So that's Lone Wolf and Cove. I feel like we did it. We went on a full journey from Hacks to Doctor Who. What a blast. To the bells and back again. Before we go, Mallory, I just thought we played a little game, which is when, which lone wolf would you pick to escort you through an adventure?

Oh, boy. I think I'm going, Mando. I wouldn't trust myself around. Obi-1. I was going to say, I thought it would be Obi-1, but okay. I'll go with Mando. Either way, I get to be in the Star Wars universe, which is a real treat for me. It would be weird to say I'm picking Joel and opting into the fungi apocalypse. So I'm going to go with Mando. How about you? I'm time to pick the doctor, but honestly, being the doctor's companion is actually a very dangerous thing. So I will do, I'm going to do Sam Neal and Hunt for the Wilder people. Like, Heck, love him. Love him to death. Love him to pieces.

Gruff as hell, but just the best. That's it. That's our first journey through a trope. We're very curious to hear what you guys think of this. If you had fun, if you learned something or how you're feeling about it. And we may or may not do more of these in the future. I will just give you a teaser. I think Mallory should do magical swords or magical weapons for our next one. We're doing more.

She loves a magical sword. I love a magical blade. We've got some dark sabers. coming up. And so, yeah, that's what I want Mallory to do. But we'll see what happens. But that's sort of a thought we had. As we mentioned, we'll be back next week with the mailbag episode, Hobbits and Dragons

at gmail.com. Anything you want to ask. Please keep it probably non-personal, but maybe if you ask a personal question that doesn't feel too invasive, we might answer that too. The Midnight Boys, we'll be back with, like, fun drafts. The Mint Edition boys are checking in with, I think, is Vox Machina. So, like, there's a lot going on in the feed. Again, if you want to hear us talk about more about Joel and Ellie, that's everyone in the

Prestige TV podcast feed. You'll get Van and Charles instant reaction. And then Mallory and I will do, I don't know if I want to call it a deep, it is like a medium dive. We'll do a medium dive a couple days later. Thanks, as always, Steve Allman, for being, you know, quick on the trigger with the many clips we had today. To our dinner, Randall for additional production work to Joe Me, didn't run on the social. to the whole ringer-riss fam

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