The Ringer-Verse - 'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2: The Gamer Guide | Button Mash

Episode Date: April 24, 2025

How did Sunday's major moment compare to the video game version? Did [redacted] hit as hard the second time around? And what might some significant changes from ‘The Last of Us Part II’ portend for the rest of the season? Ben and Daniel break down the big twist and the consequential second episode’s other developments from a ‘TLOU’ player’s perspective. Hosts: Ben Lindbergh and Daniel Chin Producer: Devon Renaldo Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Folks, it's Jay Kyle Mann from The Ringer, and as always, basketball is so freaking, freaking good. It's so good, in fact, that the Ringer's NBA draft show is finally back just in time for a ramp up to June. We've got you covered every week as we take an in-depth look at who's got next for the NBA's future. We'll talk the rising and falling stocks of the best and the brightest prospects in the 2025 NBA draft class. From Cooper Flag to Dylan Harper, the VJ Edgecom, and more. Tap in with me on the Ringer NBA draft show every Wednesday and make sure that you follow, subscribe, and hit us with those five-star ratings. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start.

Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Tramphia, proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine.

Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramfaya today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Tramphiatoradio.com. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need weather tech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips.

Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the. mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. Hello and welcome into the ringerverse, your nexus speed for all things fandom. I am Ben Lindberg, senior editor for the ringer, and with me is my co-host for these Buttonmash Last of Us season two episodes. I made him a part of this. Ringer staff writer Daniel Chin, Daniel, Why don't you say whatever speech you've got rehearsed and get this over with?

Hey, Ben. It's, you know, good to be back here. Just a normal episode we're going to hear to talk about. Nothing big happen. Nope, nothing special. Just a routine episode of television that we will be talking about today. We are here to discuss the Last of Us season two, episode two, through the valley, written by Craig Mason, directed by Game of Thrones and Succession legend Mark Milod. If you were with us last week, you know the drill here on Browley,

But Mesh, we're giving you the gamer's guide to this season as we analyze the latest HBO episode from the perspective of two people who've played the Last of Us series for years. And this week's episode, well, this was the one we've been expecting, the one we've been dreading. You know, it's funny. I've waited so... Oh, just shut the fuck up and do it already. You don't get to rush this. Don't make me get my golf club, Daniel.

Let's start with our spoiler warning. it's a little less pressing than it was last week because we got one major spoiler out of the way, but still pretty important. We will be discussing everything on the show through season two episode two. We will not be discussing future episodes of the second season. In fact, we haven't seen them,

but everything else from the Last of Us universe is fair game, so to speak, including the entirety of The Last of Us part two. That said, do you feel as relieved as I do? that the responsibility, the burden has been lifted from us now, we no longer have to keep the massive secret about what happened to Joe Miller. Definitely, especially, at least in this podcast, we're going spoilers, of course, but in writing the weekly recaps every single time I'm like,

is this like a little too leading? Is it like clear that I know what's going to happen? Do the readers know? Yeah. So thankfully. Just in conversation with people talking about the show, not knowing, you got to establish the ground rules. What do you know?

What do you not know? I just, I didn't want to be the one to spoil it for anyone. Exactly. So I don't want to ruin anyone's last of us experience. And now at least this particular cat is out of the bag for anyone who is watching live or close to live. What did you make of the reaction, the internet's take on this episode, particularly the fans who did remain unspoiled somehow? It caused quite the uproar, as we were expecting. Yeah.

Was it bigger than you expected? Was it the same? Was it different in any way? How would you compare it even to the uproar about the game? Which I guess it kind of came in waves because there were the leaks about the game before it came out. And so some people knew, much as some people knew from having played the game before they watched the show. But both times, it caused quite a stir. Yeah.

I thought it was just funny how there was just no chill the second that it was out. Everybody was like, all right, finally we can talk about this. Like the golf club memes were out. Like, people were just like, like, if you didn't watch it that night, then it was probably going to get spoiled. So it was interesting because I was going to ask you, like, since I played the game a few years later, what was it like in your experience when you actually playing it and like having it like right after?

Yeah. Again, it was spoiled for a lot of people before the game came out. Not me, but because so much of it was leaked, there was this whole round of discourse where people were pissed about some aspects of the game. Now, people were pissed about multiple aspects of the Last of Us part two, both pre-release and post-release. But I think that coming out even before anyone had actually played the game, really, or before most people have, and then that spilled out, that was in some ways worse, potentially, because you were hearing about it secondhand and no one was having the experience of having played it. And then if you did find out when you actually got your hands on the game, well, at that point, you've maybe been waiting seven years since the first Last of Us. and you've spent 15 hours in that first game controlling Joel,

and then they dropped this bomb on you. So if anything, the reaction among players was more intense, though maybe more diffuse because people were getting to it at different times, and because you could keep playing. So it wasn't just, he dies, episode over, we have nothing else to discuss for a week. You could press on and immediately see how the rest of the story unfolded. So it's different this time, but similarly seismic,

much like the ending of the first game and the first season, where we kind of knew what was coming. That was a carbon copy. That was basically shot for shot word for word. And this one was not, as we will be discussing in depth today. But it was similar enough in the big beats that we sort of knew what was in store. And didn't disappoint, I would say. I do feel bad for anyone who made it to Sunday and then like didn't watch instantly on Sunday night

and got spoiled before they could watch it on Sunday or on Monday or whatever. They're like, I could wait till the next night or something. If you made it all that time and then you got spoiled at the last second, I cry for you. I am sorry that that happened. But yeah, it was big. It was about as big a water cooler moment as TV can be these days, which is probably less than it once could have. But a Sunday night HBO prestige drama that's one of the biggest shows in the world having this kind of moment. that's about as big a culture quake as scripted TV can cause.

So I was kind of cringing in anticipation of it, but also happy that it was going to just happen and be done and be behind us. And so I was kind of just watching the world burn on Sunday night as people were finding out about it. Yeah, the moment when you see the golf clubs in the background, it's like, all right, this is time. It's time finally. Yeah. What do you think the reaction will be to this after this episode, now that this is done, And will the audience grow because of the conversation this caused and people saying, oh, they'll do anything on this series?

We don't know what's coming next in a Game of Thrones kind of way where it's either Ned Stark in season one or the Red Wedding or whatever it was that really contributed to the mystique of the show and helped make it such a sensation that it could have those moments and you never knew what was going to happen next? Or could it be something that backfires in almost a walking dead way where. Everyone other than me stopped watching the Walking Dead soon after Glenn's brutal murder, I am still somehow watching Walking Dead Dead City Season 2 comes out soon. I will never be free. But I keep catching myself calling the infected walkers also. It's tempting from my many years of Walking Dead watching and also White Walkers, which was hard to avoid in this episode in particular. But do you think there will be a backlash or will it be the opposite of that? It'll be like, oh, they went there. Okay. Now I really got to pay attention

to what comes next. I may just be optimistic, but I think it is the latter. I think that this will help it grow, in part because I think they just did such a good job of it. And comparing that to like The Walking Dead, for example, like, at least for me personally, I had already fallen off before Glenn's death and I kind of tuned back in to see it. Yeah. I guess just to piss myself off even more about that show.

Yeah. But with that, it was like so deep in the show's run already. Yes. Compared to this where it's like we're still kind of at the beginning of this journey, especially with this season where I feel like there's still a lot more room for people just like tap in now and see like, all right, what's everybody talking about with this death? Yeah, that was the season seven premiere of The Walking Dead, which, sorry to anyone who just

got spoiled about Glenn dying, but I think statute of limitations on spoilers for that has passed. But I think because that was much deeper into the show's run, maybe people were looking for an excuse to get off the bandwagon if they hadn't already. And then it was just so gratuitous. Yeah. And I think that they maybe took pains not to do that this time. Not that it wasn't brutal.

It absolutely was, but it was maybe slightly less dark and kind of hyperviolent in some ways than the game was. We can talk about that. But I think they were conscious of that. Like, what, people like Joel and people like Pedro Pascal. And we don't want to bash his brains in in the way that Glenn's brains were bashed in and also video game Joel's brains were bashed in. Yeah. Because then we might actually turn people off.

So I kind of wonder whether that came up in conversation or whether they had that in mind. Like, you can push people, but don't go too far or they might turn on you. But I think I'm with you that they did not cross that line and that if anything, it will only enhance interest. Yeah, I mean, like, I don't know, again, just thinking back to like Glenn dying,

like his eye was like popping out of his head and stuff. There are certainly levels to it. And I feel like the last of us, and the creators are just very purposeful and intentional of like how much they're showing at times. And I was reading like the director of this episode's discussion of it. And at first, like they didn't have it necessarily, but it felt like they were kind of ducking away from that. Showing that violence is what he was saying. And it felt like they needed to show it also because they need to show Ellie seeing it as well.

Right. So what's your quick take? Let's just give our high level reaction here before we dive deeper into all of the changes in our analysis of those changes. How do you think they did? Porting this major moment to the screen in a different medium. I loved it. I thought this was a fantastic episode of television and just the entire series run,

of course. All of the innovations I thought did a really nice job of making this also stand on its own in a way that they've been very good, I think, in terms of whenever there's a really big scene that's going to be important to the fans, like from season one, that scene when Ellie and Joel are talking to each other after Joel has decided to hand Ellie off the Tommy. They basically didn't even touch that scene. And I think they've just done a good job of having this calculus of like when should we tweak

things, when should we stick to the script. And I thought they made a lot of really nice changes with this one. Yeah, I'm excited to talk about some of these changes. I think there are ways in which the game version is more effective, maybe some ways in which the show version is more effective. They are ultimately quite different and the differences may be in the eye of the beholder, but I say overall this was a TV event, the kind that doesn't come along very often. And it actually was an episode that made me wish I hadn't played the games because I wanted to be one of the people who was not expecting this, because the impact was

blunted, much unlike the impact of the golf club on Joel, for me at least, because we were anticipating it. We didn't know it was coming this week necessarily, but we knew this Sunday, next Sunday, it's coming soon. And so you're anticipating it and you know that it's coming and you just can't feel the same shock that you felt the first time. And so I sort of envied people who were experiencing this for the first time. But they pulled out all the stops. I mean, This was in some ways bigger than the way that it was portrayed in the game. And I don't want to abuse the Game of Thrones comparisons, but everyone was saying Red Wedding. I mean, this was the Red Wedding and Hard Home combined.

This was the big twist of Joel and Ellie combined with the big battle scene that the show hadn't really given us up to this point. So they held back nothing. And it landed. Like this produced the kind of moment that they think. thought it would that they were aiming for. So mission accomplished, I think, at least in terms of generating attention and making it as brutal, as satisfying, as absorbing as it should have been, as it deserved to be. So we welcome your emails, as always. Send us your questions, your comments,

your complaints about the show, your praise for the show at ringerversegaming at gmail.com. We'd like to incorporate some reader, listener feedback. So let us know if you have questions, we will address them on a future episode. And now we can just get into our breakdown of what was different, what was the same. We'll be focusing mainly on the Joel murder, but also on the big attack on Jackson and other aspects of the episode. And then we'll wrap up again by looking forward and trying to preview what could be coming next. But in the broadstrokes, this was quite similar. So just to run down the same beats that were in the game and the TV show, same aftermath.

of the dance scene kiss. We talked last week about how that comes much later in the game. You don't actually see that scene until late in the game, whereas it's front-loaded in the season here. But chronologically, in the universe, it happens at the same time. And so we see the same sort of fallout from that. There's a big storm. Ellie hunkers down in Eugene's weed den.

Owen wants to leave. The other ex-fireflies are getting cold feet, literally and figuratively. They're thinking, how can we persuade Abby not to go through with this. Abby goes out scouting, runs into some buried, infected, complete with the chain link fence, close call. Again, that's almost shot for shot. Joel rides in. He had left on an early patrol. He saves her. He then gets delivered right into the X Firefly's hands. Abby brutally beats him to death with a golf club while Ellie watches and vows revenge. So all that similar, much like the the big hospital scene and the big lie at the end of season one were. However, there were some

major deviations here, and I think they're really interesting to discuss. First, let's talk about the timing, because we were wondering, would they hold back? And ultimately, they didn't. And I celebrate that. I'm glad that they didn't. We thought, would you be tempted because you have Pedro Pascal and you have this character people who care about? Are you going to make us wait until later in the season? And they didn't do it. There was a small part of me that was weird. they were going to at least drag this out across two episodes. Like, yeah, I feel like there's a version of the show that if it came out on Netflix and there was a binge model for it, they would have ended it with like, you know,

Abby grabbing the golf club or something. And then you'd have to jump to the next one. But with the weekly release structure, thankfully, they just kept it to one. And I think that they did it really well in terms of that. Yeah. Neil Druckman said, even in the game, there's like an hour or something before you get to this moment. But we also knew it needed to be early enough because this is the inciting

incident for this story. So yes, we always pick every permutation. They considered every option, but the later it got in the season, it just felt like we were kind of dragging our feet instead of getting to the meat of what the story is about. And I think that would have been palpable. If they had held this out for episode three or even later, we might have sensed that spinning of wheels a little bit, whereas here, I think they did it soon enough that they could still surprise people and also just kick this season into high gear. Mazen also said, there's a danger of tormenting people. It's not what we want to do.

That's exactly what Abby wants to do, but not the creators of the show. If people know it's coming, they will start to feel tormented. And people who don't know it's coming are going to find out it's coming because people are going to talk about the fact that it hasn't shown up yet. Our instinct was to make sure that when we did it, that it felt natural in the story and was not some meta function of us wanting to upset people. So it's true. The longer they dragged this out, the fewer people would have been surprised by it because it would have been. a big talking point on this show and many others. Why haven't they done it yet?

When will they do it? And inevitably, some people would have picked up on that. Now, the significant changes that they did make, I guess the big one that we should start with here is the character pairings and the alignments and who's present at what scene. So Ellie rides out with Jesse instead of Dina in the game. Here, she's with Dina in the show.

Joel goes with Dina instead of Tommy. So she's with Dina when the death scene happens. But when the episode starts, Joel goes with Dina because they actually have a relationship, as we discussed last time, whereas they don't in the game. And in the game, Joel and his brother are the ones in the brutal beating. So here we have Jesse involved. We just have different duos. So what did you make of the choice to split people up and pair different people together?

I thought it was really interesting, and I'm very, very curious to see how this all plays out in the episode's moving forward, just because we know where it goes in the game. But I really liked how they especially gave Tommy his moment in this episode and being able to show him lead Jackson instead of being there with Joel. Like there's going to be a lot of things that it could change with their dynamic because of that, because Tommy wasn't there when this happened. He didn't kind of introduce Joel to Abby in the first place, so maybe he doesn't have that guilt weighing on him. And then, of course, with just Dina and Ellie not being paired together. We don't know as much about their relationship as we do in the game at this point. So moving forward, it's going to be interesting to see how this shakes out. Yeah.

So we still get Eugene's weed den, but now it's a 7-Eleven, not a library basement. And because Ellie and Jesse are together, we don't get the Ellie Dina Blizzard sex. This is a big milestone in their relationship that doesn't happen here. So it's funny how the Eugene details are being changed, just like Joel taught Dina about rewiring electronics last week, which is something Eugene did in the game world. We still have vestiges of Eugene, but different things happening in different places at different times. And because of that, we don't get that big progression in the L.E. Dina romance, but we get a different

big progression in the sense that Dina is there to witness the murder. I mean, not literally, I guess, because she's knocked out mercifully by that point. But she's the one who's there with Joel, not Tommy. Craig Mason said one of the reasons we made a change from the game to have Joel in that room with Dina as opposed to Tommy, who's a big, tough guy. Abby is basically saying, make one mistake and we're going to kill her. And if there's one thing we know about Joel, it's that he's sort of the ultimate dad. we know he cares very much about Dina and that he would never let her suffer in any way,

shape, or form to defend herself. So that's interesting. So he seems to be saying that Dina's presence made it an easier sell that Joel wouldn't resist more because if he's there with Tommy and the two of them could tag team Abby and her crew that he might be more willing to be reckless, to be more aggressive to make more of an effort to save himself, which is It's kind of interesting because he doesn't really do that in the game either, right? And I didn't think that much of that in the game. I mean, he takes a shotgun to the lower leg in both the game and the show, which, you know, despite Joel being a machine that does hamper his ability to stand up and fight just a tad. And then he has multiple people holding him down and he's getting beaten by a golf club.

They're taking no chances with Joel. So I never really thought that particularly. Like why didn't Joel make more of a fight here? But evidently they thought that because Joel is such a juggernaut that maybe TV viewers would find it more understandable if Dina was there to sort of cow him into not making more of a move. So I don't know. Does that really resonate for you as a rationale? Yeah. I mean, it's different in the show in the sense that they're really drawing out.

this whole exchange in general. Yeah. And it's interesting just to see the, the clock's turning for Joel in this moment, especially now that there's this whole other element in play with Jackson being under siege. Right. So you have Joel looking out the window, seeing Jackson on fire. So he's already not clocking any of the former firefighter members like he probably would be because he's so distrustful.

So I liked how there's all these little context things that are kind of taking him off his game already. And there's that one like deliberate shot where Joel is looking at Dina on the ground as he's thinking like, all right, well, maybe I could try to lie my way out of this. Like maybe there's another Joel or something. I don't know. Maybe there's something else he could lie. But yeah, there's that moment. He almost lets his guard down because he's distracted. And he's telling them take what you want. And they're like, do we look like raiders to you? And then he has that epiphany where he actually looks at them and takes their measure and says no and then realizes, oh shit. Like these are not just, this is not a random raid. These people are after me and their military and their ex-fireflies. And I think maybe he,

he even is kind of kicking himself in a sense, not literally. Again, he gets kicked plenty to, but just like I let my guard down. Usually I'm scanning the environment for threats. And here, because I'm so focused on the threat on Jackson, I didn't realize the threat that I was getting myself into here. And I do like that moment. And I think Mason even mentioned, because he's staring out the window at Jackson and the fire's burning there, his impulses, I got to get back. I got to help those people. And potentially, Ellie, who as far as he knows is under attack too. And Ellie kind of has a different reaction where she sees the attack on Jackson going on. And her thought is, I got to get to Joel. So that kind of tells you what their priorities are. And that is also going to come into play later in

the season, I think, because clearly Ellie will end up prioritizing vengeance for Joel over the protection of Jackson or safeguarding that community. So I think that is a nice little foreshadowing of what will happen here. And of course, that's a reason why Tommy is not here is that he has his hands full elsewhere. Tommy's a little bit busy. So because that's kind of an invention of the show, that gives him a reason to be elsewhere. And also, I actually like that. I actually like, the fact that Dina is there. Because even if she's spared witnessing what we see and what Ellie sees, her being there, I think actually makes it easier to understand why she's motivated to go with Ellie,

assuming that things play out the way they do in the game. And when Ellie sets out to get her revenge on Abby and her crew, Dina goes with her. In the game, that's kind of sudden. That's abrupt, you know? Like, I know they had one kiss. and then they had sex one time, and I guess it was great, because after that,

Dina's willing to go to the ends of the earth to hunt down this guy with someone she's known for a while, but they kind of just got romantically involved. And here, I think the fact that she was present in that scene makes it more personal for her. Plus, she has this relationship with Joel that she doesn't have in the game.

And so I actually like that. It's kind of like when they added the motivation for Joel to set off across the country because he was worried about Tommy in season one, which wasn't really present in the game. In the game, things happen. You just go along with it

because you're playing, right? And you just, you know, they lay the track and you go down it. Whereas when we're watching passively, we're sort of scrutinizing the character's motivations more and thinking, gosh, if I were Dina, I mean, Ellie seems great and all,

but would I really leave Jackson where I've lived for all these years and where I'm sort of safe to go hunt down these people who knows where? now I think that actually makes more sense to me. Yeah, I totally agree with that, and I like that change a lot for that reason as well.

But then the flip side of it, too, which I think is going to be really interesting to see, is like what it means for Tommy. Because you're thereby kind of sacrificing Tommy's motivation a little bit, plus the fact that Tommy is being repositioned to be this huge leader in the community, plus he's a father now. So his whole calculus is very different now, too.

Definitely. Yeah, we will return. to that when we look forward because, yes, I am also wondering where Tommy will go, if anywhere, next. So one thing that you pointed out to me, the way that they're sort of reshaping Abby's crew here, sort of softening them in some sense, but also kind of combining the actual character roster here. Do you want to just lay out how exactly they have changed both the portrayal of these characters and then also which characters are actually present at the scene? Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, just in general, they've shrunk the whole Salt Lake crew, the whole former Fireflies crew, because in the game, there's a few other characters like Jordan, Leah, and a couple other people that I don't even know the names of. And I think that's part of the reasoning, too, because there are a lot of less memorable characters that are placed in this crew. And they've consolidated in a way where these are all the important ones that you have to know from the game. But in the process, they made some interesting choices where,

Jordan is one of the few of the lesser memorable characters that has a little bit more to do. Like he's the one that when Ellie eventually enters the room, when Joel's about to die, Jordan's the one that Ellie cuts in the face and he comes up later on

because they have captured Ellie and then Dina has to come save him. But now it's Manny kind of filling that role. Like Jordan is like kind of the hot head of the crew and it's funny because in the game Mani's actually the one that holds Jordan back. But they've been combined to be one character

where Mani is now kind of the hothead in the crew and they have to restrain him from killing Ellie. So there's just a little bit of changing around to make it fit more in the sense for TV. But it's going to be interesting, I think, to see how Mani changes as a character overall, too, if this is part of that reasoning too. Yeah.

And they go about this much more humanely when it comes to the supporting characters, everyone other than Joel, because Mel just anesthetizes Dina, just puts her to sleep. And this is partly because it's Dina, not Tommy, but in the game, Nora just knocks out Tommy by pistol whipping him repeatedly.

Now, maybe it's a different proposition to show Dina getting pistol whipped than Tommy in the game. Plus, I think all of this is a little bit different in live action than in the game. You know, even if Nottie Dogs, animations and graphics are great. It's still a little bit different to have actual flesh and blood characters on the screen here. And, you know, it's harder to stomach them getting beaten to a pulp than it is when they are just a collection of pixels and polygons, no matter how lifelike.

And so because Mel is really taking care to assure Joel that, no, Dina's going to be okay, I promise. And they're all just kind of worried about how Abby is losing it. You know, here. And in a sense, I found that almost tough to swallow because we've been taught that fireflies, you know, like they do a lot of heinous stuff, even if it's for the right reasons or noble goals. Like, they're doing bad stuff. Even, you know, Tommy and Eugene were hearing about the things that they've done in the past. And so you're thinking about this crew now granted they're younger. Maybe they weren't fireflies that long. Maybe they didn't have an opportunity to be as brutal. but would they be quite so squeamish about this?

Does that say something about how they've changed since they were with the fireflies? I guess the good thing about it is that it does really make the contrast with Abby stronger. And credit to Caitlin Deaver for just embodying that rage where even as she's laying out,

here's why this is happening to you, you can tell that she's kind of losing control, right? And she's going further than anyone else wants her to. And so that, I guess it functions well in that sense, and in that you kind of get the sense that, okay, Abby's kind of out on an island here. You almost wonder, like, how did all these people end up in this room with her?

Because it's been five years in the show, and they knew what her plan was. And maybe they thought that she wouldn't go through with it either, but it's just wired very differently than Abby is. And maybe it's not quite as personal for them because it wasn't their dad, but presumably it was people they loved and care. about too. So pluses and minuses where I'm like, you know, they're almost too nice in a sense.

But then that does really make the contrast with Abby and her brutality stand out all the more. Yeah, it really seemed like Manning was the only one that was like cool with it the whole way. Yeah. They like have all these like cutaway shots to their reactions and he's just like, hell yeah. Right. Yeah. And it makes you wonder what the relationship with Owen is currently because in the game lore, they're kind of off and on, and it's not completely clear if they're off or on here. Like, in the game, I think it's more clear that they are at least at present off because they go scouting together.

They go off, they split off from the main crew, and they go off and look at Jackson. Owen says, I have something to show you, and he shows Abby the city. No one else sees it. And at that moment, they are clearly not together romantically, because Abby's talking about how she's had her fill of him. And also, we learn that Mel is pregnant and it's Owens. And at this point, at least in the TV show, it's not really clear. Like, there's clearly some tenderness here and, like, hand contact and are Abby and

Owen together, but maybe they won't continue to be after Owen sees Abby's bloodlust exposed here because, like, kind of a turn off potentially. I mean, hopefully, right? Hopefully not a turn on to see your girlfriend. brutally beating this guy, even if from their perspective, he had it coming. But I do kind of wonder whether it will clarify their relationship and what it will turn out to be in this moment. Yeah, it's interesting because I feel like they are telling you a lot more about some of these characters up front, like especially in how Mel, for example, is so repulsed by everything that Abby is doing.

Yeah. But then at the same time, like you're just saying, like we don't have all the exposition of the relationship, specifically of like male being pregnant, all of these things that are better. If they stick with it, they're going to be very important later on in the TV show as they are in the game. Yeah.

This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 US-based support. millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business.

So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. This episode is brought to you by Nass Energy. Every ounce of dirt, sweat, and gears, every checkered flag and trophy raised, every lap, every race, every hard fought place. They're all jammed inside every can of Nass Energy, high performance energy for burning the midnight oil in the garage,

and pedal to the metal human horsepower for the stress. streets. Go ahead, crack open a can of Nas energy and get after it. This episode is brought to you by Prime. Obsession is in session. And this summer, Prime Originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories, and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice. Off campus, L, every year after, the love hypothesis, Sterling Point, and more. Slow burns, second chances, chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime.

So the other big change, and we talked about this last week when it became clear that this was where it was heading, but here we see it just laid out explicitly. Abby explains to Joel, and by extension, the audience, why she's killing him in great detail, in contrast to the game where we don't know. We don't really know anything about Abby and why she's after Joel

and why she is doing this when it happens. And we don't find out until midway through the game when the perspective shifts and we play through things from Abby's view. And that changes this dramatically. Is it for better? Is it for worse? We can debate that. I think it's actually an interesting debate to have.

But it does make this scene play out quite differently because in the game, Abby asks Joel to guess why she's doing this. And Joel just cuts off the speech that she's practiced. And we get the same sort of line here. the stupid old man, you don't get to rush this line. But she does rush it in the game, much more so than here. And she doesn't just lay out exactly the record of Joel that has prompted her to take revenge here. And there remains some uncertainty, even if you suspect as a player at that point, okay, this must have something to do with the hospital. Even Ellie is not

sure of that. And we know that she knows what happened at the hospital. But even she says, as she sets off with Dina, that there are any number of people who might have had a reason to attack Joel and Tommy. They have decades of history of pissing people off and crossing people who might have come back to get them. And so you don't know. And that really changes the experience as a viewer slash player. So what do you think it does? I mean, if you could put yourself in the shoes of someone who's seeing this for the first time and then also analyze it from the perspective of a player, Do you like the way that this plays out where Abby is, you know, almost like the classic kind of villain has the protagonist tied up and explains their whole plan and their whole rationale. And unlike the typical trope, Joel does not get away, but we do still hear exactly what is on Abby's mind.

I'm still very torn about this because I think this was definitely the biggest challenge that they had coming into the show. and still now, like, now that they've actually made their choice, I think it's very divisive in terms of how people are responding to it. And I think it needs to be something that I would want to see how this show plays out a little bit more to make a final judgment on. Because, like, having that nightmare sequence in the beginning of this episode, I thought was really interesting. It was actually exactly, I think, what I was talking about last week in terms of something that I wanted to see.

And I liked that they tweets it a little bit, so it has this moment where, Abby in the present is looking back and talking to herself in the past. Like as a creative choice, I thought that was really interesting. And she's just such a good actor and being able to just see how much she's having this internal conflict, like very literally talking to herself in her mind as she's dreaming. It's cool to see them making this kind of change early on and like still trying to surprise the audience while alluding to stuff. but they were doing a lot in the game. It changes everything because even as you're watching versus playing,

when Joel saves Abby's life, that makes it even more seem like senseless killing when you're playing this for the first time? Because it's like, what did this guy do? He just bailed you out. You were about to get chomped, and he shows up in the nick of time, and now you're killing him. And we understand why that's happening in the show.

So it's just not nearly as jarring or disorienting. I don't want to downplay how massive a surprise it was because clearly it was regardless, you know, even with all that groundwork being laid. But it screws with you so much more, I think, in some respects when you're playing it for the first time not knowing that backstory. And I think the detail in which she lays it out. Now, one thing that I did like here is that when Abby says, there are just some things everyone agrees are just fucking wrong. Yeah. And Joel agrees. He nods just silently.

And we know that he knows what she's talking about. Whereas in the game, maybe he suspects, but again, he could be thinking, oh, man, I did many things that people could be coming to kill me for. Here he knows exactly what it is. And he doesn't protest. And he doesn't defend himself. And he doesn't say, yeah, but you got to understand what they were going to do to my adopt, daughter. He doesn't do any of that. it's as if on some level he is relieved, maybe, that finally someone else knows, because that's

another change that we talked about last week. As far as we know, it's possible we haven't seen him unburdened himself to anyone. He didn't have that scene with Tommy, and he hasn't divulged this in therapy. And so maybe on some level, he's just happy that it's out there, even if clearly he's getting his ass kicked. And on some level, maybe he thinks he deserves that because he He knows it was wrong on some level. He did it anyway and he'd do it again. That doesn't mean that he doesn't still feel bad about it and guilty on some level. And so maybe there's part of him that is almost happy he's being punished for this finally.

Like I've gotten away with this for too long. And so that is an aspect of the scene that we get because he knows and because we know and because we know that he knows. And I enjoyed that aspect of it. I liked seeing his reaction and his resignation. and acceptance of it almost. So that in some ways made up for the ways in which it does seem just a little on the nose, just this recitation of, you know, it's almost like he's in court and you're reading out what he's been accused of before you deliver the sentence, you know?

And it loses something in translation there, but it does gain something also. Yeah, it's tricky because I feel like with just the length of this monologue, it does border on like kind of like the cartoonish village. and like explaining their whole. Yeah, exactly. But her performance is so good in the scene that I feel like it just works in a way that you're invested in this character very early on

in the way that you are in the game. So it's tough to tell exactly without having, knowing how much more we're even going to see you of Abby this season. Yeah. But there is something that's just so brilliant about the game, like especially that moment when everybody's heads kind of pop up when Joel says his, name and Joel's like, oh, it sounds like you've heard of us before or something.

Uh-oh. Because that as a game, you're like, oh, shit. Like, this is about to take quite a turn. Yes. And they still do that in the show a little bit. I still think it's a very nice moment, too. But at that point, as the audience, you know exactly why they're perking up, too. But it's still an interesting moment nonetheless.

Yeah. Did you think, because you mentioned the nightmare sequence last time, could they have just shown the nightmare sequence? Would that have sufficed? Could they just have hinted at this more? Because they have justified this by saying, look, it's a difference in mediums. You're watching. You're not playing.

You don't have this automatic identification with this person. As a viewer, you're going to be wondering who is this. Why are they doing this? Why am I watching this? And they might have to keep us waiting for those answers if the timeline is at all like the games. And so we get it. We understand why maybe it was necessary to make some tweaks. But could there have been more restraint?

could they have showed some sort of flashback and made us do the math and conclude, here's her motivation? Or maybe let's slip that, okay, she's on some sort of mission that has to do with Joel, but not fully given away the game, literally, in terms of who she is and who her father was and what happened? Like, was there a way to be more measured, more restrained and still give us enough that you would have the grounding and the context to appreciate what's happening? I think so, honestly. Yeah. And I know it is very different medium and it's tough in that sense.

But I think just between like that opening scene in the first episode, like pairing that with Abby's really long monologue and this nightmare sequence, there is, again, a little bit of like handholding in terms of like showing us exactly who she is. Yeah. But at the same time, like, again, I'm with that nightmare sequence, like, Kailen Divers is just so good in all these scenes that like, I'm still just appreciating her performance each time that she's on screen. Yeah.

So I'm conflicted. It's impossible to take myself out of having seen the way the game did it. And I think that's always the hardest thing about this. Yeah, that's why we have five different podcasts covering the show on the Ringer podcast network. Right. But yeah, no, it's true. It's hard to see this with fresh eyes, even if we do our best. But I think that there is some heavy-handedness.

And we talked about this last week with just screaming to the hilltop. that she's immune and then also getting bitten to remind us that she's immune. It's funny because in the game, you do get the scene where she tells Dina that she's immune and Dina doesn't believe her because why would you? She thinks she's just pranking her. But yeah, it's sold by Caitlin Dever's performance, I think, as much as we might quibble with, okay, did we need all of this information? I thought it was interesting that Abby says that Joel canonically killed 18 fireflies excluding her dad in the hospital because in the game, I think you can kill as few as three.

I don't know that many people had that kind of restraint, but I think like the game canon, I think technically is just like what you see in cutscenes because, you know, you can take a more stealthy approach or you can be me and take a more guns blazing approach. But that's what I did too. Me too.

Yeah, Abby would have plenty of reason to kill me. I don't know what my body count was, but probably closer to 18 than three. But I guess show canon is obviously different from game cam. but nice to have the kill count up there, you know, I guess. Yeah, yeah. And that does make Joel seem even more monstrous. Did you have to kill quite that many people, but also makes him seem like more of a threat

and more of a monster and more capable that he could even bring down, you know, like 18 versus one that you could actually pull that off, just, you know, running out of ammo, grabbing another gun, running out of ammo, grabbing another gun. It's so then Ellie shows up and it largely plays out the same way from the, there. There is, I think, a little more responsiveness on Joel's part. He's not going to get up, obviously, but you see the fingers twitching. You see he seems to be aware of Ellie in a way that it's tough to tell whether he is in the game at that point because he's just so bloody and beaten that he could just be oblivious and out of it. But here it's clear that he knows Ellie's there. Mason said

he hears her and he's aware of her. He wants to get up. He just can't. If there's one person in the world that could make him do the impossible, it would be Ellie telling him to get up. It also tells us that he knows that she was there and he got to see her. And on some level, I guess that's kind of comforting because for a show viewer at this point, now we know that there may have been intervening scenes that we will see via flashback at some point, where they actually talk things out a bit and it doesn't go just directly from her berating him at the dance to this bloody. final scene. So it's kind of comforting maybe for us to know that there was a conversation in there. But if you're watching this for the first time, you're thinking, uh-oh, that was the last time that

they talked and it was ugly and they haven't been getting along and now cut straight to being beaten to a bloody pulp. Maybe it's nice for him to know that she's there and she cares about him and she's clearly distraught and she wants to save him. Then again, would it be comforting to know that Ellie is in this room at this moment? I feel like if I were Joel, I would want Ellie to be a as far away from this place as possible. Yeah, I mean, that moment is just so devastating when Joel just lifts his head a little bit. Yeah. And there's just this sense that he's failing her again, not only just failing her, but failing Dina.

Yeah. Because he's about to die with both of his adoptive daughters in this room with all the fireflies that he's pissed off. Yeah. Yeah. Mason compared it to Asland getting shaved, his mane, getting shaved into the Lion, the Wynne, which I think a perfect comparison because it did make you feel bad. And you have this character who seems all powerful like he can do anything. And so you're expecting him to get up until the last moment.

I mean, this is a guy who just slaughtered, executed 18 fireflies. So, you know, a handful of fireflies should be no problem for him. And so you're expecting until the last second, Ellie will save him, he will save himself. They were turned the table somehow. And it's just heartbreaking that that doesn't happen, at least until you see things from Abby's perspective, perhaps. Yeah, if I were Joel, I'd be thinking like, A, I don't want Ellie to have to see this. You know, because like, I don't look so hot right now. I don't want her to have this memory and have nightmares of her own and also just be hell-bent on exacting vengeance.

And also, he doesn't know for sure that Dina or Ellie is safe. All he really knows is that these people are beating him to death and they've promised him that everyone else is okay. But can you take their word for that at this moment? So really, he dies not knowing what's going to happen to. his adopted daughter and also this other sort of second adopted daughter who he's very fond of. So I'm not sure that that's that much more comforting for me to know that he was aware that she was there. But okay, if that brings you comfort, happy to hear it. We get a different death blow.

So they did spare us the squelch that we get when the bat finally makes its final blow on Joel's skull. and you definitely see some pulping happen in the game. It's not quite as explicit as Glenn in the Walking Dead, but you see that skull being bashed in. And here you don't see this. It's a little more, I don't want to say humane. It's far from that. So it's a little less bloody.

It's just like drive a spike into the base of his brain, basically. I think there are two advantage of this. A, practical effects. wise, it's probably a little more manageable not to have to deconstruct Pedro Pascal's face on screen. And also, as we were saying, like, they didn't really want to rub people's noses in the violence and kind of glorify the violence. And so, okay, it's over. You're just driving a spike into him. You know, maybe he doesn't feel that at that point. Also, I think it just makes it more conclusive because unless you were actually going to bash his brain in and see his brain splattering all over

the room, you know, we're so conditioned by TV to think, oh, maybe he survives somehow. And they make very clear that he did not hear, both with the spike and also with his body in the body bag being dragged along behind the horse, which is not something that's in the game either. So they're taking away any sort of debate about, was this some sort of cliffhanger? Like, are they going to say, is this going to be a Glenn the other time that Glenn seemed to die and then didn't actually and somehow escaped? No, clearly, Joel is dead here. And it's a little less, like, grossly violent than it was in the game.

I just like the detail a lot, too, that it's like the broken piece of the golf club. Yes. Because she just hit him so many times, hit him so hard that the golf club is broken. Yeah. I mean, there's a whole bag of golf clubs. I guess she could have moved on to a different club if she really wanted to. Yeah. If she had her way, she probably would have.

But she was being hurried along a little bit there. And I think the game is also like literally darker in terms of the setting, like the room where this takes place. Because they go down to a basement and it's really dark and dingy and it's just like they're descending into the depths of hell. And it's almost as if they're like hiding the atrocity that's being committed here where as it's like a little brighter and nicer in this room. I mean, it doesn't really undercut the brutality of it for me much. but it's another way in which they kind of cleaned it up just a tad, you know, in the show versus the game. Because it looks like basically a murder dungeon where this is happening in the game. And a little less so.

It's like an alpine lodge, you know? It would be a nice room if not for what is taking place in it. Then we also get the Ashley Johnson cover. And I think this was a really nice touch. I think much as having Ashley Johnson show up in season one to play Ellie's, mom and having it make sense in the universe, but then also being a little nod to her and her portrayal of Ellie, but then also to game players and tying these different universes together. Here, we hear Ashley Johnson covering the titular 2012 song through the valley by Sean James,

and it's a blend of her performance in the original 2016 teaser for the game and a new rendition that she delivered for the show. And I thought this was just really fitting and just a nice nod to us and thematically appropriate and resonant. And I just kind of tipped my hat to that touch. Yeah, I agree. I really loved just the cameo of Ashley Johnson in the first season. I thought that was the best out of all of the bringing all the video game actors back

into the fold because there's this really nice poetic touch. of her being the mother to the character that she was for so many years and that she made so iconic. And it's, it is, it is a really fitting fitting end to this episode. And it's, it's a very tough episode. It's a very tough watch. And yeah, we're not big like Easter egg guys just for fan service sakes, just like, oh, put a nod to the games in because we love the games. But when it makes sense, and I think this was a time when it did. and Mason said, in the end, there's little Ellie gasping for breath with the man who is her father, and we hear the voice of the woman who is her mother.

And it's beautiful. I don't know if I'd use the word beautiful in this context, but I see what he's saying emotionally, maybe. Sometimes the parallel universe is touch. We don't do a lot of meta stuff, but sometimes it touches. And if there's a moment where you're free for the universes to touch, it's this one, because this is a shared experience now with everyone. We're sort of saying everyone who played the game and now everyone who hasn't, we have lived through this. And I like that too, because finally we're all on the same page, at least as it concerns Joel's death. And so it's sort of like, okay, TV viewers, they have been read in now. They have the proper clearance, you know? So like we're all just one big, extremely unhappy family watching and playing The Last of Us and Joel's death. And that was just a nice way to unite it. And as Mason said, I can make an argument that for every single line of that song,

as it is contrasted against what you're seeing, it's not true. Almost every single thing is this desire to be true, but none of it's true. So you look at the lyrics and it's, I walk through the value of the shadow of death and I fear no evil because I'm blind to it. And my mind and my gun, they comfort me because I know I'll kill my enemies when they come. And yeah, all of that is maybe something that you're going to tell yourself, but it's not really true that your gun's not really going to save you. You won't and can't kill all your enemies. You will still feel fear. And then sure, clearly goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life. Clearly not what's happening here. And I will dwell on this earth forevermore. I walk beside the still waters and they restore my soul,

not happening here, but I can't walk on the path of the right because I'm wrong. And then, you know, finally it ends with I know when I die, my soul is damned. And that might seem like the one part here that actually is true. But we know the end of The Last of Us part too. And maybe that's not completely true too. Maybe there is actually some salvation. and restoration here. So it just, it works really well, thematically, I think. And that could go over your head entirely, and it wouldn't be distracting, you know,

if you don't place Ashley Johnson and the lyrics of the song. But if you do, it just adds another layer to your appreciation of the show and the game and the way that the two touch. So kudos. Kudos to Druckman and Mason and everyone else involved in that coda

to an extremely difficult scene at the end of an extremely difficult episode. Agreed, yeah. And I just love that last shot of all of them going back to Jackson on fire. And this moment where Ellie's looking back at the body, you don't see exactly what she's looking at first. But when the camera pans back around and you see them dragging Joel's body, it's just. Yeah. And then the music cutting out, too, for the no credits, the music in the credits is devastating.

Yeah. So we touched on this, but ultimately, and you said your final. verdict, your reserving judgment, jury's still out, which I think is wise. And most of the internet is not taking that approach. So I commend you on it. But waiting to see how the rest of this season, and not just this season, but next season too, because this is all playing out over multiple seasons. And okay, we can't evaluate the vision until we've seen it all. But based on what we've seen so far, does the death work better, worse, the same on the show compared to the game? I'm leaning a little bit towards worse, just in the

the sense that it was just such a shock. Yeah. In the game. But it's also just unfair because we just, we're going into this knowing that already, but also because they, yeah, we know too much. They've set it up a little bit differently. But I do like all the changes that they've made overall. So it's, it's just different to me. It's very different because I really like the innovation of the attack on Jackson and everything it does to change the tension of this whole part of the narrative. Yeah. In a way that's, that makes it so exciting. But especially for, or people that have played the game already, it's changed the dynamic completely in a way

that it makes this very fresh and exciting too. Right. So even if you say, okay, maybe this surprise was dampened somewhat. Clearly, it was still a big twist if you made it all the way. But I think what I worry about is just the rest of the game

and the way that it unfolds implicates the player in Ellie's violence to an extent in the game because we're right there with her watching this happen and thinking, screw you, I'm going to kill her for what she did

to Joel, not knowing that Abby killed Joel out of the same desire that Ellie and we as the players have to get revenge on her. And then when the perspective shifts and you see things from Abby's view, then you kind of question your own sense of the situation and your own bloodthirstiness. And that's this moment of reckoning. And I don't know that a TV viewer is going to get that just because it's all laid out for us from the start. We know more than Ellie. Whereas in the game, we were kind of on the same page with her.

We were in her shoes controlling her, but also knowing what she knew. And so we could still, and I'm sure some people do, still hate Abby for doing this, but it just doesn't seem as baseless, as senseless as it did initially in the game. And so that's what worries me, I guess, in terms of the long-term implications of this and all the ripples and the ramifications and the reverberations and other words that start with our, just like, will that kind of carry the same psychological effect on the viewer than it, as it did on the player? And I have my doubts about that.

So I think that's why I'm with you and kind of leaning toward the game did it better and not even necessarily blaming the show for not doing it as well, but just saying different mediums, limitations of some mediums, advantages of other mediums. Yeah. I will say, like, in a vacuum, what I did really love is just the performance. of every actor involved too in a way that it's like, it's so different seeing this happen in live action. Like seeing Bella Ramsey's performance in the scenes,

like they're so good in it with Caitlin Dever as well. And just the level of detail and care that's going to each one of these things. Like I love seeing the inside the episode things the making of The Last of Us afterwards and just like the details of like having to set up the prosthetics around Joel's face for this and just like bringing in the crane shot for just that one. Bird's eye view of Ellie clutching onto Joel. All these little nuances that they did for live action, I think, are just awesome. Yeah.

And I guess it bugs me a bit because I feel like the game maybe came closer to the creator's original intent in the effects that it wants to make you feel. But maybe there will be a different way in which this works just as well. Ultimately, we'll see. And the fact that some of the same creators are involved here, again, makes me. give them the benefit of the doubt for now, at least. And, you know, I had my issues with The Last of Us part two, also the game, because it's a game that doesn't really give you much agency. It's still mostly linear, at least when it comes to the big decisions, but then also wants to make you feel kind of guilty and implicated, and it's hard to have it both ways, even if part of the point

of the game and the story is just as Ellie can't avoid getting sucked into this cycle of violence and revenge, we can't either. But she has a choice in the way. universe and we don't really, unless we want to just stop playing the game entirely, which is an option, I guess. And maybe it says something that the enjoyment we're deriving from playing and killing everyone indiscriminately. Ultimately, trumps whatever distaste we have and feel for the character's actions. We still want to keep going. So, you know, I had my issues with that takeaway, too. But it at least left you really thinking. And I just wonder whether the decisions that we see in this season, we'll have the same stake power. But we will find out. And ultimately,

I think I'm happy to have both versions, because as we keep saying, I don't want it to be exactly the same. What's the point of that? We have the game already. And people can take their pick if one is more to their liking. And I like the way that they're kind of blending the two. And it's fascinating to talk about, I think. Like, I really enjoyed discussing this stuff, even if ultimately I sort of side with one over the other. And I was also thinking about the fact. It's kind of funny that the two major moments of the end of the first game slash season and the start of the second game slash season are kind of contrived from a plot perspective, in a sense.

We revisit Joel's decision, and it's this heart-wrenching decision, and we've all talked about what would we do in that situation and what should he have done. But it's kind of like they had to make the circumstances line up just so that he would have that choice and exactly that choice because the fireflies try to kill Ellie immediately and don't ask her what she wants, right? And, you know, partly maybe that's because they don't want to give her the chance to say, actually, no, I'd rather not die for everyone else here. Even if Marlene says that that's the choice Ellie would make, and it probably is, they don't give her the choice to make that. She doesn't have any more agency than we have when we're playing The Last of Us part two. But, you know,

they put her under without explaining what's happening. And they do. it so fast also. Like, you know, they're ready to kill her before Joel even wakes up from his bump on the head. Right. And, you know, you'd think that, like, in this situation where you have one immune person and the fate of humanity is hanging in the balance in addition to this one person, like, wouldn't you just try to maybe synthesize, like, a vaccine or something without killing her? Like, maybe there's, you know, take some blood samples. Like, you know, maybe you can take a piece of the cordyceps from her brain without destroying all of it. You know, like, just seems like this potential solution to the plague falls into your hands.

You're going to take your time. I mean, I know it's a pressing situation, but you've waited this long, this many years. You know, don't do anything rash because you might kill her and then find out that you've just cost yourself a chance to synthesize some sort of cure. So the fact that it's super expedited like that makes it work. Like, this is why Joel has to take everything into his own. hands and do it immediately and slaughter everyone because of those circumstances. And you kind of like don't even notice that they've set it up in just that way because it is such

an amazing moral dilemma. But everything kind of has to conspire to make it that way. And same thing for this like indelible scene. You do need Joel just to walk right into Abby's trap in a way that seems kind of improbable. Yeah, yeah. It's like, okay, they're debating. How are we going to get this guy out of the same? city. And then he just shows up and's like, well, I'm Joel. Maybe I can spend the blizzards at your

cabin here. So, you know, it's maybe best not to think about some of the circumstances and coincidence that have to line up to produce these memorable moments. But it doesn't make them any less memorable ultimately. Yeah, it's definitely fair. I mean, especially just going back to the end of last season, the fireflies just fumbled it so hard. And so many possible ways, like not even just letting Joel and Ellie talk one last time. I think that could have just changed everything because then he could have seen firsthand that Ellie, this is what Ellie wants. Right. Exactly. And then, you know, if he still makes the choice at that point, I guess there's no dilemma anymore is the thing because then, okay, Joel is actually a monster. But maybe they think, oh, maybe it's less cruel to just do it without her even knowing and without him having a chance to save her or anything.

But yeah, it's not the best way to go about it. Their hands are not going here either. So let's just talk briefly about the attack on Jackson, too, because in the game, Abby stumbles over a few infected under the snow, but here we have a fort. They have multiplied exponentially. Did you like that this happened in the same episode as Joel's death? I liked it a lot because I feel like it made the whole episode. It would have already felt like a big event, but it really, really makes it feel like a big event with just the scale of the production size and just, the action itself obviously. But the way that it just

changes a lot of these dynamics in so many little and big ways I think is really fun and it's going to be really cool to see moving forward as well. We already talked about how it's just creating this effect on Joel where he's just distracted by the whole thing happening the whole time. I think that's fascinating

in itself. But the fact that Abby is inadvertently setting this hoard upon Jackson too. And that all of this is coming back to to Joel in a way, that consequence of what Joel has done at the end of the first season. Yeah. Creates all these fascinating ripple effects.

At first, I thought this is kind of overkill, literally. I mean, that Joel's death scene would have stood on its own. You know, just like from a strategic standpoint, why quote unquote, waste a big battle or burn a big battle in a week when everyone's going to be talking about the show anyway? And we're all going to be talking about Joel's death. why not just like parcel these out a bit? And people have been waiting for the big infected confrontation. It was one of the complaints about the first season.

There's not enough infected. It doesn't seem dangerous enough in this world, at least from the fungal infection. And they thought, okay, you want infected. We're going to give you infected and we're going to give them to you all at once. And I thought that that scene was much needed and overdue. But I did initially question, will this also be sort of a distraction from a storytelling standpoint? Will this pull focus from the Joel scene? We are actually kind of intercutting between one or the other.

And the Joel scene, ultimately, that's the true showstopper. And so I thought, gosh, if we're all focusing on this big battle, shouldn't we just give the Joel's murder it's due? Shouldn't that be the big centerpiece and not have to share the spotlight? But then I thought, maybe, no, maybe it actually enhances the surprise of the outcome of that scene. because if you're watching this, maybe you're thinking that, like, well, they wouldn't kill Joel while this big battle is going on. Like, he has to ride to the rescue. They're not going to just kill him while the whole city and Tommy and everyone else is at stake.

And so maybe that's almost a misdirect where you have your focus on this big battle and you're not thinking they're actually going to kill Joel in this one too. Maybe that actually makes it more of a surprise. Plus what you're saying about just let's aim for the all time. TV highlight here. Let's just do it and be legends. You know, like, let's, let's not do these things in moderation and we'll give you one big scene one week and one big scene the next week. We'll just overloads. We'll just pile it all into this episode and it'll be an absolute highlight of the year. And ultimately, I think because that battle scene was executed so well and Joel was executed so well, unfortunately for him, I think it actually did work really well. And it had an additive effect.

Like they worked well in tandem even better than they would have in isolation. Yeah, I certainly see all the critiques of it. And if people didn't like it, I totally understand. But I do think they, like you're saying, I mean, I think they do contrast each other really well. It works well in tandem. And just being able to see the biggest threats to humanity right now, just being still the infected and also just still humans, because humans are bad. Seeing both of those happen simultaneously in this way, I thought made for.

a really cool dual event. Yeah. And also this is something the game didn't give us really conflict on this scale. There were allusions to raids and hunters and infected attacks on Jackson, but we didn't get to see or play anything like this. So that's a feather in the cap of the game and HBO's budget. One other thing about this, I think it would be satisfying if Abby inadvertently caused the attack on Jackson through her actions

because her goal is to exact vengeance on one person and one person only, at least ostensibly. It's supposed to be a targeted attack. But one of the messages of The Last of Us is that you can't confine violence and vengeance to one person because there are all these ripple effects and there are unintended consequences and collateral damage and innocent bystanders and it's self-perpetuating. So I like the idea that in searching for Joel and only Joel, Abby woke up all of these infected and then they get redirected to Jackson. And that blood is kind of on her hands too, unbeknownst to her perhaps. And so I think you could interpret it that way. I don't know if we can

confidently claim that because maybe they would have woken up and attacked the city anyway when the mycelium got damaged because it's in the city. It's in the pipes. And they've laid the groundwork for that. And so, you know, Joel and Elia put down roots so has quartercepts in this city. So I guess you could say that once they were woken up by Abby, then they could be called. Would they have been summoned the way that they were as a mass unit if she had not already gotten them started? I don't know. Do you think that we can say, yeah, that was all Abby's fault? Or would much of that have happened regardless just because of that wayward axe strike?

Yeah, I mean, it's a good point. And especially just because we don't fully know how the mycelium stuff works. like if it's just going to deliver a message to the nearest infected or how many it's reaching at the same time, she certainly sped up the process. That much we know. She expedited their efforts. So that much seems safe to say. Okay. Let's just close with a little bit of looking forward and previewing and speculating. Will Tommy stay or go now? Because we know in the game he sets off before anyone else. He actually, he sneaks out. He knows that Ellie is hell-bent on revenge, he wants to be the one who goes. And he actually wants Maria to keep Ellie in the city,

fat chance. Good luck with that. But he has a head start. And now, as you're saying, well, he wasn't there when Joel was killed. He didn't see it himself. He also has a son. And also, he has a city to rebuild and repair. So as the leader that the show has positioned him as, can he actually depart at this point? So do you think he will stay in Jackson? and Ellie and Dino will have to go it alone. I think he kind of has to, just based on where we see. Obviously, they could change some things,

but one of the most memorable parts of Tommy in the two games is him fighting Abby and Manny later on. And I love playing that so much from the gaming perspective because you get to see how badass Tommy really is. And it's like you can't even turn a corner without him sniping you. So to lose that, you're losing a big part.

of who Tommy is, but at the same time, I feel like he's just completely irredeemable if he does go with the way that they've set up in this. Because not only is he a leader in this community, but he has a kid too. So it's like, is your own personal loss? Is your own trauma more important than the role that you now have in this community? Right. And it would be helpful, I guess, for him to make a different choice than Ellie does and for him to say, I want to be out there killing these people as much as anyone. That's my brother, but I have obligations here. I have to stay, and then we'll see Ellie maybe make a different choice. Another thing that, and that doesn't mean he couldn't show up later, you know, once he rebuilds the walls or something and we'll still get

some of those confrontations, but it'll happen in a different order. Druckman said Jackson is now a character in the story. This is something we talked about last week, that they were just taking more pains to sort of establish Jackson as a living, breathing place. And Druckman says, it's a character that people have to take into account going forward. What does that mean? Not only have we lost this beloved character, but we've lost a lot of other people, and now the safety of this town is compromised. Where do we go from here to present that dilemma going forward? It gave us the excuse to make this completely badass siege of Jackson. So he's suggesting that that wasn't just because we wanted a CGI spectacle and give people all the violence that they wanted, but there was a reason for this and

have to justify Tommy staying, maybe. Though that then makes me think, like, how much Jackson are we going to get? And how interesting will that be just to see, like, Jackson being rebuilt? Because, you know, if we're following Ellie and Dina or maybe even Abby, are we going to be bored going back to Jackson where it's like, you know, putting the walls up again? Like, what else is going to be going on in Jackson while we're watching these searches for revenge? Yeah, it's a great point.

I really like how much emphasis. been putting into Jackson in these first two episodes, and especially in just seeing the way that they've actually prepared their defenses, I thought was really cool in the different levels in which they've prepared it. But to your point, I mean, I don't know how much more they're going to be able to show, but a big reason for that is just because we didn't see it in the game. So maybe maybe there is a lot more that they can build, both literally in terms of rebuilding the town, or just from a narrative perspective, that will make this more interesting, especially with us knowing that they're going to be splitting this into two seasons.

Yes, exactly. And maybe it's a larger, almost walking dead style showdown between civilizations and larger forces here as opposed to the individual battle that it largely becomes in the games. Maybe the violence comes back to Jackson, who knows how they could build these things up. But we're pretty confident that we know where Ellie is going to go. And Dina's line at the dance scene, oh, Ellie, I think they should be terrified of you. We'll see the double meaning of that line when she starts striking fear. into her adversaries here. When do you think we'll see Abby again and how much? We've seen the next time on preview.

And there is a brief shot of Caitlin Deaver's face, but it could be from any point in this season or any point in the future of the show. We don't really, she's just lying there. So do you think we will now take an Abby break for a bit? I think that we probably will, just based on what, like, I mean, maybe not to read too much into the trailers,

but we haven't seen anything. again of Lev and Yara. So it seems like that's going to be, like it is in the game too. A lot of the focus later on, probably third season stuff, but it's, I think especially in TV,

it's too hard to just completely forget about a character who's so central to the plot for five more episodes or so. So I'm sure that they'll still be focusing on them, especially as we get further and further into Seattle with Dina and Ellie and maybe Jesse. It's hard to tell if Jesse comes in later, like the game or if he's going to be there from the start.

Yeah. I'd be surprised if it were like the game where we don't see her again for hours and hours. But one week, I think, would maybe be good just to kind of have everyone lick their wounds. And because if you're introducing Abby this early and her backstory and everything, then it probably doesn't make sense to do that. And then also put her on the back burner for the rest of the season. Right. And you have Caitlin Dever. You should use her.

But I think, you know, maybe one episode that's more Jackson focused as we see the aftermath of all of these tragedies, multiple tragedies, that might be good. And my last question for you maybe is when we will get the first Joel flashback, because we know it's common. We know we're going to get the guitar scene at a certain point, which came very early in the game, and we haven't seen it yet. The porch scene, of course, which has been implied. Like, you know, we kind of know it's going to be inserted into the chronology at some point here, but we haven't seen it the heart to heart that Joel and Ellie have where they kind of lay it all out there. Or just any other Joel scene. When do you think the show will establish, okay, Pedro Baskal's character is dead, but he's not gone entirely.

I think it's probably going to be as soon as next week, honestly. Just because from the next week on, we see the moments of Ellie going through Joel's house and looking through his old thing. Yeah, smelling his jacket. Yeah, his jacket and stuff. I feel like they're probably seeding something there. And just because we've seen that there's going to be a lot of flashbacks, like I think the weeks ahead trailer that they put out after the first episode shows like that interaction with Gail and Joel talking about the moth and what it symbolizes, which we didn't see in this episode, of course. So it seems like we're going to be seeing a lot more of him.

It's just how much next episode? I don't know. Yeah. We'll see. Yeah, it looks pretty faithful to what comes next in the game based on the little bit of footage that we've seen. I would also be okay, though, with taking a beat here with Joel and going an episode without him because does it kind of undercut the emotional effect of losing this character if immediately they give us Joel memories? You know, it would be nice in a sense not to torment us, as Mason said, to make you clear that Ellie and Joel they did kind of. Men fences a little bit because we're kind of thinking, oh, if she had only gotten up earlier,

she could have gone on the patrol with him and they could have hashed it out and could have been in a better place when the murder happened or maybe it wouldn't have happened at all. But if they kind of give us that reassurance immediately, like, I kind of want them to let people stew in the sadness for a little while. Like, make us feel the deprivation that Ellie feels. Like, I'm not going to see this guy again. If they start immediately serving up Joel flashbacks, you know, I'd just. definitely want to see them and I know that we'll see them, but give me one episode. Give me a bit of a breather here before you start taking us back to Joel. Yeah, I agree. Because I mean, in the game, it's just so impactful when you do have that very first, I think it's the first

flashback, but one of the first flashbacks at least of when Ellie and Joel have like that outing to the museum. Yes. And you just get that moment of them back together. And it's so special and it's so bittersweet because you get to see them together again. Yeah. But it's like, is that an impact of knowing that he's gone? So I think, to your point, it does help to kind of delay that as much as possible. Yeah, the happy birthday kiddo scene. Yeah. That's going to be tough.

Yes, it is. So as much of the rest of the season. It's true. We're still looking forward to it apprehensively. And we're looking forward to a lot of things on the Ring reverse feed as well, which is my segue into our closing programming teases to tell you what's in store here on the very busy ringerverse feed. On Friday, tomorrow, I'll be joining the Junior Mintz,

Jomi and Steve, on Mint Edition, as we discuss the PlayStation video game adaptation that everyone's talking about. No, not The Last of Us. We can do five different Last of Us podcast, but six would be a bridge too far. So on Mint Edition, we'll be discussing until dawn, another Sony PlayStation Productions video game adaptation, which is hitting theaters this week. On Saturday, the Midnight Boys, phew, pew, there you go. I was going to say, you'll get it done one of these weeks.

We've got five more of these pods. I was ready. I was bracing myself. Yeah, you got it. Yeah. The Midnight Boys will be posting their third pod of the week, working overtime, working weekends. I mean, they pre-recorded, but, you know, from your perspective. Midnight Munchy's Apocalypse Food will be coming out on the Midnight Boys feed.

I guess I was wrong. There is sort of a sixth Last of Us pod, maybe, but this one is different. It's about food. Never too much. No. And on Sunday night, the Midnight Boys, the Pew, Pee, We'll have their... We don't have to pee-p-p-p-you every time.

I'm going to say Midnight Boys like five times. They'll have their Last of Us episode three instant reactions up. And while we're doing weekly button-mashes on The Last of Us, it's tough to find time for video game pods, which is the mandate of button mash. But we're going to try to squeeze one in on Monday because we've got a double RPG blowout. A new RPG classic came out this week,

Claire Obscure Expedition 33, and an old RPG classic, the Elder Scrolls for Oblivion that just got a fresh coat of paint with a surprise released remaster. So we will talk about those two titans of the RPG genre. The whole Ringervverse crew will then discuss other highlights of the April release calendar on Ringervverse Recommends for this month. It's the one-year anniversary of the series. How about that?

And then the Midnight Boys yet again on Thunderbolts next Friday, and then it starts all over again. So the Ringervis feed never sleeps at this time of year. And neither does House of Our because over on the House of Our feed, we've got Last of Us and and door deep dives on Mondays and Thursdays for the next several weeks, rinse and repeat, plus Mal and Joe's Thunderbolts deep dive next Friday. And Daniel, in addition to recapping The Last of Us, which will be up at the ringer.com, what a great website every Sunday night. So you can click over there as soon as you watch to read his take.

He will also be covering Thunderbolts on the website, giving you a primer and maybe a post-release take as well. So we're going to be busy in multiple mediums, just like the last of us, doing double duty here. We're on pods. We're on the website. We're on video. We're covering things. Full court press for this property. Thank you to Devin Ronaldo for producing today's episode and to Arjuna Remgapal for additional production support. Again, I will remind everyone to email us at ringaversegaming at gmail.com. We would love to share some of your thoughts and insights next time. And Daniel, we would do it all over again, and we will next week. Until next time.