The Ringer-Verse - ‘The Last of Us’ Season 2, Episode 5 Reactions! Plus, X-Men Director News | The Midnight Boys

Episode Date: May 12, 2025

The Boys are back and they’re diving into ‘The Last of Us’ Season 2, Episode 5. They discuss Ellie and Dina’s personality differences from the game and touch on some X-Men nerd news! (0:00) Intro (8:29) Spoilers ahead (10:13) Initial reactions (1:18:52) Nerd News (1:27:07) Outro Hosts: Van Lathan, Charles Holmes, Jomi Adeniran, and Steve Ahlman Producers: Aleya Zenieris, Jonathan Kermah, and Steve Ahlman Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome into the Ringiverse. This the Ringers' next podcast feed for all things, fandom. We are. Don't mean to explain their dinner on you about questions. He's going to answer as we are. Steve, the architect, Almond, the builder and tigger of things. Oh, man, bang. He is the resurgent, hairline, Coke, baby, Chuck, the 25-carat closer.

25. 25. Extra carrot. Extra carrot. Together we are known as, I'm the Midnight, boys. Apeam! Follow some socials, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, TikTok. Gentlemen.

Guys, I've been, you know, preaching for Instagram, follows on Instagram. Oh, it's on TikTok. We're doing crazy numbers on TikTok, fellas. A couple of videos getting a million views, you know, like we're steadily rising up those ranks. I'm like, yo, let's get some energy into the TikTok. Come on, y'all, lock it in. Jomi is a content slave driver.

Yeah, okay. Okay. I wouldn't use those words exactly, but. Yeah, you are. I'm not going to deny it. And he came to me, and he was like, man, great news. This big sports organization wants to bring us out to a game. Okay.

Well, okay. Oh. And I was like, This is awesome. I would love to go to a game with my pals. And then I thought, Hey, Jomi, I won't. Am I going to have to work?

Absolutely. No. What the fuck, Jomey? The name of the game is to expand our base. Are you trying to make us do the Apple dance at the game? No, I don't just think anything that's silly. But I do what I want to do, right? And you guys, we talk about this.

We sit and we're like, guys, how do we grow our audience? we put ourselves into as many people's feet as possible. This is a friendly place he puts on where he's like, no, you got to give us this content. All right. Well, don't do that. Okay, don't lie to the people. Okay, ultimately, we all have the same goal to go to this podcast. Right?

In order to do so. Well, the podcast itself, you know, socials being something. Have you ever thought that sometimes I just want to hang with my friends? Sometimes I want to hang with the boys without having to put everything online. Of all, obviously. Sometimes we do that all the time. We do that all the time. We do that.

We go to Vance House? no phones. We just out there had a great time. I haven't done it a lot. Here's the deal. I'll tell you this. It's going to be hard.

Like, for example, we can't, Kerm doesn't want to work. Don't do that. Stop lying on him. So how are we going to go to a podcast when we can't even keep Kerm?

Stop lying on him. Produce it. Kerm would love to produce it. Kerm works hard. Don't listen to him. No, Kerm's a hard worker. You know what?

I'll tell you something about Kerm. I just first think that Kerm's aversion to work was something that was, that was, but now I know why. Kerm is cosplaying as a crew member. Kerm is talent. Oh.

Kerm is talent. Kerm is way, Kerm knows he probably got people in his life. It's like, hey, just let you know. You're way too talented to be behind the boards on that shit. Kerm probably got so many poems about

like fucking over the midnight boys. He's Kanye. You're game back. You're game back. He's Kanye. He's Kanye. I'm gay. It was fun.

It was fun for a second. We're on YouTube. Like, comment, subscribe, share. You can watch Midnight Boys. Every Midnight Boys, every House of Art episode on YouTube. com backslash at Ringoververse and also on Spitofil. What was that, Alley?

What I just did. Oh. Yes, see. I like it. Brommer, my dice! Yesterday, we premiered Midnight Munchies. Check it out on YouTube. Midnight Munchies.

We got more Midnight Munchies coming for you guys. Yeah. I'm not excited when I had the idea. I didn't realize that I was going to have to eat the nasty food. Yeah, it wasn't our greatest show unless. Jesus Christ. It is fun when we were like, hey, we got a fun new thing coming. We can't wait to give you more.

Maybe not for this. And I will say, I do miss the MRE. MRE. was pretty dope. But I think the applications of midnight munchies are endless. Yes, of course, sure. If the turtles come out, pizza. Pizza.

I thought you were going to make a seat turtle. Or like turtle soup. I was really good. I've never had turtle soup. First of all, it would be so fucking disrespectful. It would be so rude to eat turtle for the turtles. Is there actual turtle in turtle suit? Yeah.

I went to, I was in an undisclosed country one time. I was in the market, and they had shark fin. They had shark fin soup. And I was like, I was scared. I was scared. And I remember L.L. Cool J from Deep Blue C. Remember that song? Yeah.

Deepest blue is my hat is like a shark's fin. Deepest blues, my hat is like a hat is like a hat is like a shark's fin. Y'all know that clip of LL where he's at the WWE event and the camera flashes to him and he does like this. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's because that's from Deepest Blue is My Hat is Like a Sharks fan. What is wrong with LL? He was in the movie Deep Blue Sea.

Yeah. It was a hot time for him. And so he was, this was, I feel like that song was part of the theme song to a movie ending. Yeah. Because there were a couple of misses for the movie theme songs. And then they just went away. Wow, Wawa West, I think was like when we were all like, really?

Wow, wow. No, we had more. Jim West, desperado, gun run. No, you don't. Gun running this. Like, what I'm telling you. That was good.

I like men and black in the men, the men and black was the best ones ever. Great simple. Men in black, turtle power. D.M.J. On a half shell, heroes four. In this DNA,

you could ask for more. But Will had those on lock. Yeah. Did it, did Will ever do one for bad boys, though? I don't think so. I don't think so. Why he didn't do it for?

bad boys. I feel like. He only did him for more like the family, the family affair. I feel like Bad Boys was a little bit cooler. Yeah. Yeah, he didn't, I don't remember him doing one for bad boys. He did, he did,

he did, Wawa West, Wai WS, men in black. And that's he. He didn't do one for Hitch. He didn't do one for Hitch. Or Ali. Hitch would have been crazy.

That would have been, that would have gone triple platinum in my house. Hitch had the greatest movie soundtrack song of the 2000s to me. one thing by A. Marie. Wait a minute. Didn't he do... Wait, wasn't Miami for bad boys?

I don't think so. No. Really? Okay. Yeah, Beyonce... Well, can I say in the MCU, which actor do you think could make the best rap song for a movie? What a great question.

Rehearsal Ali used to be a rapper. If we'd ever got the Blade movies, maybe we would have got... That would have brought him back. Play a theme song. You know what I mean? Anthony Mackey, New Avengers, like... Papa Dot. Oh, yeah.

Andy Mackey. as Papa Doc. Anthony Mackey as Papa Doc. Wait, does that make Bucky Barnes fucking Eminem? Eminem.

Yeah. Jimmy Rabbit. Anthony Mackey as Papa Doc that works. Vin Diesel made music. Vin Diesel. Van Diesel.

A group record for, that's actually the one that makes the most sense. Yeah. A group record for Guardians of the Galaxy?

Rocket on the ones and twos? Rock it on the ones and two's. Oh, come on. I am Groot. I am Groot. I am Groot. I am.

Oh, wait, I just thought of the word. I am so big a turtle power and just be coon power for Rocking. All right. You see? I hate how genius that is. I hate how genius that is.

Rocket raccoons. Rap name would be the notorious C-O-O-N. Rocket featuring Byron Donald. Rocket could I have his whole Coon squad. Oh my goodness. Charles and Candace Owens.

Great. Can we get to Lasibus? This week, Thals of R gives you their deep dives on the Lasibus. The Midnight Boys will give you their instant reactions on the finale of Andor as well as Budmash and more House of Our content coming soon. But on today's show, we give you our instant reactions to the latest episodes of Laszavis. Lasovus spoiler warnings. Everything up to date.

No spoilers for the game. Steve. Run the spoiler warning. We're getting ready to talk about The Last of Us. You're listening to a reaction podcast. The spoilers are coming. To begin our reactions, we have to put you in the know.

The way to do that is the Midnight Manifest. All the person who can do that is Chuck Black. All right. This is your Midnight Manifest for Last of Us. Season 2, episode 5, directed by Stephen Williams, written by Craig Mazin. The WLF finds spores in their hospital basement, but refuse to alert the wider.

community. It's day two in Seattle for Ellie and Dina, who have made the theater their home base. Dina coordinates a safeish path for the two to walk to the hospital and during it we learned that Ellie's lover had a very, very tragic past. At night, Ellie and Dina are trapped inside a warehouse with the stalkers, aka the smart zombies

that have begun to evolve. The duo is saved by Jesse who reveals that Tommy and him followed the pair a day after they escaped. Ellie, Dina, and Jesse are chasing to the woods by the WLF, and run into the serifites who hang and disembow a WLF soldier. Dina is then shot with an arrow When the seraphites discover the trio

Ellie tells Jesse to escape with Dina to the theater While she leads the seraphites away Ellie then ends up finding the hospital And cornering Nora in the basement level That's infected with sports Nora tells Ellie that Joel killed everyone in the hospital And murdered Abby's father The doctor who supposedly could have made a cure

Ellie says she knows doesn't care And proceeds to torture Nora In order to get information on Abby's whereabouts And that has been your midnight manifest For Episode 5, Last of Us, Season 2 Van? I'll just start with this. I was interested after watching this episode to get your opinion.

The pluck in this episode to me was at an all-time high. It felt like they kind of got a little back on track with last episode. I was like, all right, I'm vibing. This one, there were some moments where I'm like, hmm, very, very plucky fair. Let's get into it. Can we put Pluck Cornwall? to the back burner though. We can.

Okay, if it's okay? Yep. And let's talk about the characters themselves because I have a lot to say about the plug. Because I think that there was something that you said a couple episodes ago that maybe you got a little shit for that is right, honestly, if I look at this particular episode. And it has to do with two letters.

Y.A. Okay. Okay? Okay, all right. You see the eyes. Okay, okay. You can feel the heat already. So, this was kind of a big episode for Ellie to me.

Yeah. Big Ellie episode. Every episode of the show should be a big Ellie episode. It's her show. But this one showed Ellie's vulnerabilities, the things that she's not that great at. and also why she's sort of the hero of the show. She went from both avenging angel to vulnerable, naive traveler, to just daughter again in this episode.

She was saved. She was angry. And it was the first one to me that introduced some intentional ambiguity into her character. Because after watching this episode, I'm not sure if we're supposed to like her. I really don't know if we're supposed to like that. I mean, by the end, by the end of the scene where she is torturing Nora, I did, and it was purposeful with the TV show that I think to your point there should be some ambiguity, whether we should be rooting for her or not. I think I would lean towards the show as like, you shouldn't be. But I was like,

oh, this is tough because I don't know if I like Ellie as the lead yet of the show. Like, I Like, so, like, already pushing Ellie to that prestige TV corner of a really hard person to root for in terms of, like, when you would get to the later stages of Tony Sopranos arc and Walt's arc and all these arcs, it was like, I don't know if I... But you're so deep in with those characters. Yes. That you're doing the same thing for them from an art standpoint that you do from the fucked up people that you really know, which is making excuses for them. But they had seasons. They had seasons. Where as with Ellie, I was just like, oh, we're not, there's no buffer.

It's, you know what I mean? Like what? Joel died three episodes ago and already we got Darkside Ellie. I was a little bit like, oh, okay. When it's normal, right? Nora. Nora. When Nora tells Ellie, I asked the men boys this, when Nora tells Ellie that Joel killed all those people,

killed the one guy that could have cured her. should that matter to Ellie? And whether she knows or not, the fact that a human being is telling her this information and saying, hey, this trail and cycle of vengeance that is happening, it's not happening for no reason. It's happening because Joel killed not only Abby's dad

who was a doctor, but Abby's dad who also was the last person on earth with the expertise to stop what's happening around us right now, which, you know, is the fact that this virus is ever mutating, it's a world killer. And so not only did Joe kill him,

he might have killed all of us. Should that be enough to just drop it? No. Okay. I don't think so. I mean, ultimately, you know, she's like, I know. And it's kind of, it reminds me of Civil War

when, Tony and Steve are fighting. And Steve's like, yeah, he's mind controlling. He's like, I don't care. He killed my mom. Like, I don't. That's not really, you can say whatever you want. What if his mom had, like, you know what I'm saying?

Yeah, but she, but Tony loves his mom the same way, Ellie loves, love Joel. Like, at the end of the day, like, I don't really care what the excuse is whether he was brainwashed, whether she was trying to cure the thing, whatever. Interesting. I'm getting my leg back. That's ultimately what this whole thing is about. It's not about making sense. It's about revenge. That's all it's about.

Which is why you're looking at you're like, why I don't know. I like this character because there's nothing's really based in like since the emotions are sincere but they're sinister. They're not, it's not anything good. It's just like you kill my man's. I got to get you back. The same thing you're talking about last week about why the seraphites and the wolves are beefing because you kill one of my homies or you kill one of your homies.

Eventually you just lose track of it. You just lose track of it. That's ultimately it's like the beginning of that. You killed, uh, Joe killed Abby's dad. Abby killed Joe. Now Ellie's got to kill Abby. It's just a cycle. And it's the idea of if those reasons are enough for Ellie that ultimately I'm not very interested by,

because what I was mainly interested in in this episode is the internal conflict between still going through with this and being motivated enough, not just for her, but for Dina as well, because we see that she has her own motivations here. But to know that when somebody throws the reasons for killing Joel back at Ellie and she, she's more or less unaffected. I'm actually more interested as to why, with all of that information, she is unaffected because we have five years of context that we are still missing between Joel lying to Ellie about what he did and where we are right now. There could have been a lot that happened between Joel and Ellie about that information

about how Ellie might have known or not known what Joel did. That kind of just like lets that reason wash over her when it's thrown back in her. face as to why that happened. Part of it could be because she's stupid. What? Deida said we're not calling her that. It's just a non-scholarly person. Well, a non-scholarly person Why do you call her stupid for that?

What I'm saying is let's say that Ellie is non-scholarly or unschooled or whatever. Stupid is a harsh word, but let's say that that's the case. It's possible that she's lacking intellectual context for all of this stuff.

It's, I'm, I'm, okay. Okay. So if you're, if you're, I'm just going to be real with you. Jesus Christ. If you're, I deal with this a lot, right? I'll be like,

I'll be trying to explain something to someone and they'll say something and I'll be like, you know, there's a great book that outlines what could happen if the attitudes that you have and the way that you are are pervasive. There's a great article

on this. There's scholarly work on this. There is a curiosity that goes into a certain degree of intellectualism. I'm a I'm not painting myself as an intellectual, but just an understanding of bigger

concepts that sometimes ground you and sometimes make you look at a larger picture. And if you don't have that, particularly if Ellie doesn't know the ins and outs, of what's going on in Jackson. If she hasn't taken the time to understand the supply chains there

and what the average worker means there and what the council does and all of that, then she might not have a respect for how important it is and how much she's needed back there and how much every single person is needing back there. If she's just going through life oblivious, then it simplifies things in a way that are more direct to her.

and some other people who've taken the time to investigate all of that stuff and be into that stuff might have a different view of it. They might have a different take on it. I mean, I think that actually what you're talking about

is where I'm struggling now with the later parts of this season where it's very, very interesting to watch a character who's good at their job and Joel was good at his job in the first season where he had a mission,

he was trained, you believe that this guy could get this little girl to where she needed to go. I think, especially with this episode, Ellie is just so kind of thoughtless and so bad at what she does. By the time Jesse comes to rescue them,

I'm happy to see Jesse, but I am feeling this feeling of just like... It looks like competence is back in the room. It looks like competence is back, and I'm just like, I want to see that competence from Ellie. When I see Ellie on the screen and like they're making plans. I want to feel like, okay.

Okay, what does competence look like to you from Ellie? I mean, if I'm going to be 100% honest, she's running around quite, and I get it, like a video game character where it's like the, all right, you can't get bit, but you can still fucking die. And I get you can write that off. It's like, oh, she has a God complex

and she's a teenager or whatever. But I'm like, all right, how many times are you going to put Dina in peril before, as of that? I'm a little like, oh, right, the show has a solve for that being that Dina has agency and motivation to do the exact same thing that Ellie has been doing. She's in love.

And for all of the reasons that her family got murdered in front of her, which we hear about in this episode, she has the reasons to think like Ellie does as well. So you think that Dina has our own motivation to get revenge? Yes. So you think that if Ellie said, we want to turn around and go home, that Dina would be like, I don't want to do that.

And that's the things that are constantly brought to us in. this episode. I don't think that she would do that. I think that she's, so when I, so the way I look at it and we can have obviously different opinions is that the one thing in the world that robs you of agency more than anything is love. Love makes you do things that are not smart and things that you wouldn't do otherwise. I understand. Okay. But along with that love, we also have the reason as to why she thinks about wanting to get back at Joel for Joel's murder as well. I'm not saying that any of those reasons are good, but we have the reasons. And when Jesse comes back to rescue them and take that back, you can throw that logic back in his face to be like, why the fuck are you going back to for them anyway? They've made their decision.

Why are you risking another leader in Jackson just to rescue these senseless teenagers? Exactly. Right. But he also says we're leaving in the morning. They'll get out of here. Right. He also says, all right, you guys gave it your best

shot. We're leaving. and Ellie's like, no. Even Dina was like, hey, what did you mean about that, man? Like, we got to, like, at this point, Tommy and Jesse came all the way to here. We have to go. I am struggling with your guys' texts. It's going to be honest with you. Yeah.

Because, like, you mentioned love. That's what this whole thing is about. The whole thing is Joel love or Ellie love Joel. Dina loves Ellie. Like, this whole thing is people making, yeah, bad. decisions, but we can't discount the reasons for doing it. Like, we know it's not smart. We know it's not what, you know, you should probably be doing by the same time.

You have to understand, like, these people have connections to these people. And at the end of the day, like, again, it's not the smartest thing to do. It's not the right thing to do. But it's what they're going to do based on their emotion. I think that there's a difference to me between, yeah, you can explain it. We could explain it. Well, there's this reason they're doing that. To me, there's a difference between what's happening on screen and whether

it's engaging or not. And I'm just getting to the point where it's like, watching two teens fuck up. Like I'm watching like Harry Potter and the fucking Corticeps virus is just a little. To me, at this point, I'm like, all right. I think that's a bit. I don't know, man.

I feel like it's, no. They found themselves in that warehouse with all of those smart. The stockers, yeah. Small stalkers. And I was like, what the fuck are they doing? Yes. I was annoyed.

I'm like, what the shit are they doing? And by the way, look, we had the conversation during the first season about whether or not Joel should have actually let them operate on Ellie, which he should have, right? But he just should have. I know that he couldn't, and that's the whole thing. But there is something that compounds after a while. To your point, everything that you said is true. And I'm not in any way saying that this episode is bad. I'm just like investigating the character's motivations in the show itself.

It compiles after a while. Sure. It gets to be, okay, so Joel did something stupid. Okay, so this person does something stupid. Then we're just doing more stupid shit. Which is probably like... In the apocalypse when it's cortisps floating around and the scar people are disemboweling people. Can I ask you something?

Because this is like a big thing about the dissonance in the game versus the show. because by this point in the game, you and Dina have killed dozens upon dozens of people. Like so many people. Serial murderers. Yeah. Like just to survive and get through to Jackson.

Because that's the whole point of the game. You're killing zombies and killing people. Why do they get killed? Why do they kill people? Why did Dina and them kill people in the game? Yeah, in the game. Because of survival and they're going to be hunted and like W.LF doesn't know who they are.

They pursue them. The seraphites don't know who they are. They kill them. They try to kill them. They're scrappy. They're competent. They're very violent. And that's based on that survival.

If you would have seen more of that in the show, does that inform their, like, competence and survivability? Yes. Great question. Yes. Okay. If I felt anything other than fear for them being out there, part of this is like, part of this is sexist as well. And I'm talking about myself. I'm not talking about anybody else here.

Uh-huh. I'm talking about myself, right? now, myself right now. When Jesse arrives, I'm not going to blame the writers of the show, I'm going to blame my eyes. When Jesse arrives, it looks like somebody that knows what they're doing has shown up because they're in trouble. They're not in trouble because they're women, but the internal biases that I already have in my mind that I've been socialized into, being a 45-year-old man, they're still at play. If you would have gotten them riding all the way to Seattle being badasses

and actually killing people and getting behind people and not just running and screaming and all of that stuff, don't get me wrong, they show them being good at stuff. Yeah, they've killed like two people. Yeah, they showed them being good at stuff. But mostly

what they've showed them as it's kind of babes in the woods, if I'm being honest with you. And so, babes, not as babes as chicks. Right, I know. But without, Without that level of like either violence or, as you say, competence in a level of like danger such as this, it kind of looks like they're... I don't believe they can do this. So it seems stupid for them to be trying.

I mean, I will say this too, and this is just like the difference between adapting, like, of playing a game and then adapting a game to the screen, I don't know if enough time has passed in the real world and in just how I view the show for. Bella Ramsey, to me, the Bella Ramsey portrayal that we're getting still feels like a child. Does that make it? Like, I, everything that we've gotten this season has been Tommy yelling, yelling at Ellie like she's a child, Joe yelling at Ellie like she's a child. Her doing stuff like she's a child where I feel like is in the game and stuff that I've seen from it, because you're pushing a very fake character, you could be a little bit more brawling. could be a little bit more action heroy. You could kill a bunch of people you see,

if you see Ellie doing a bunch of action hero shit like Joel was doing, then I could kind of be like, oh, the stalker situation, they miscalculated, but to your point, there's hours of gameplay that are making me feel like I'm watching someone who's an action star versus someone who's like, oh, this is very much a teenager or a young adult, running around being scared and not being that good. I think Steve makes a good point in terms of, like, if we had seen more, again, if you're playing a game, you get to spend 30-a-havis somebody and murder a whole bunch of, you know, zombies and people and let you know, like, what their deal is and what they can do.

But I think the show tried to do it in episode one, right, where they're at the grocery store, whatever, and her and Dean are just like, well, no guns, knives, just like, really, like, we know what we're doing, two clickers, we can handle this. And they kind of, but, you know, obviously, like, the floor caves in and the stalker stuff. And so, like, yes to, like, both of your points in the sense of we could have seen more and, like, we needed the game. Like, the game does a better job of illustrating that. But same time, I think the show, you know, did its job in terms of these guys, they know what they're doing. They can handle business. Right. Right. They don't need, like, I don't think we need to, like, eight scenes of them, like, killing random people who may or may or may or

not be coming up on them. We know that when there's clickers, they can handle business. They can get the job done. Right. And I agree with you, by the way. I don't think I don't personally need to make her John Wick in order for me to think that she can handle herself. I think that the reason that she's cutting off

her empathy from the grander picture and all of the people that she's endangering, Dina, her unborn child, now Jesse and Tommy for this reason, can be more informed by the idea that all of this context as to what she knows with Joel

and what Dina has with her like previous life, which was not mentioned in the game before. I think that's a big departure from Dina having her own agency to want to stay with Ellie and enact that revenge with her. I borderline almost felt like more motivation on the part of Dina than the path of Ellie

because she kind of is walking this back a tiny bit like Dina, you don't have to come with us, I'll take you back, I'll walk you back. The scene in the street where she's like, yo, what am I doing? Yeah, she's clearly, like having second thoughts about this where in the game she was not like she was

killing all these people not having a second thought in her mind at all and I kind of like this idea because whenever she's faced with the like in front of her reality of oh somebody's actually was in the room with her I'm gonna get close now I'm full steam ahead I'm going for revenge but when I'm with Dina when I'm with Jesse

like that might be coming into question I have all these ends pulling at me that wasn't like that in the game Dina was unstoppable. What was the reason that Dina told Ellie that she didn't mind her running into situations half-cocked? In the game? You're asking? In this show, in this show. What does she say?

Because she would like to get out. She would like to live. No. She said, I don't mind, like, I don't mind you running in half-cocked. She said, it's one of the reasons why I love you. She loves this part of her. She's, all of this is emotion. You know what character I thought about when I was watching?

this, and I hate to compare women to women. Alaya's going to love this. Did you guys ever watch The Walking Dead? You watch it? Yeah. Do you remember Carol? Yes.

Early season Carol? Yeah. Early season Carol was with an abusive man, was scared, was, there is a couple of scenes from the third or fourth season of the show where Carol is so fucking hardened.

she assaults this thing by her fucking self has the rifle does the whole thing gets in at this fucking point when she is on screen she is fucking shit up and so all I'm saying is we've made an abrupt turn in the show

I liked this episode by the way I liked this episode because there was a lot happening and it was a lot of fun Yeah. But there was a part of this episode, and Kalika's why I sighed, and Kalika was like, like, what's the deal? You don't like the show? I'm like, no, the show is good, but I'm like, what the fuck are these kids doing?

But I'm just, you know what I'm saying? It's like they're in the whole fucking thing. The stalkers are everywhere. She gets a chance at the end. She still goes for, for Nora. Nora says, fuck that bitch, she deserves a time. whoa, what the fuck? Like, damn.

And then she's sitting there dying of the whole thing. And I'm like, does anything matter to Ellie other than her? Right. Does it like this? And I get it. I understand it. Does anything matter to Ellie?

I don't know how much I like Ellie. And I don't know if I'm supposed to like Ellie right now. And maybe at this point, I'm not supposed to like her. But Ellie gets on my fucking nerd. And that's an interesting point because you as the player who has spent all this time playing as Ellie have no choice. but to kind of empathize it with her

because she is the embodiment of you and your agency in this story. When you're just watching this happen on screen with characters that you may or may not know from Adam and have the equal amount of time with, it kind of lays that bare. And the exercise of that lack of empathy for her is kind of like pretty much out there for all to see

because she is being selfish. She is being reckless. She is being all of these things that you as a player were like, well, these are my objectives. This is what I have to do. It's part of the game. It's part of the game.

And that's probably the point of this show is to kind of lay that more on its face as it goes. Or what Ellie is going to learn as she's going through this and putting people through this and all of this stuff. Yeah. And our empathy for her is going to be spread more and more thin because we're not her. Did the Dina like big monologue work for y'all?

Because that was another part that I kind of bumped up against. I love, I think Dina, the actress that is playing her is so charming and so great. But that was probably another moment where I was like, oh, huh, this is like, I get what it meant for the story in terms of just like Dina also wanting to tell this woman that she loves like,

I've been through shit too, I've killed people too, just because I'm throwing up seeing these dead seraphites, like, like I'm hardened too. I've lived through the apocalypse, but there was a moment where I'm like, oh, we're also getting a lot of almost like exposition dumps from a lot of characters. I even think last, we ended up liking it,

But what's his face from last episode? Jeffrey, Jeffrey Wright. Isaac, yeah. We're getting all these big dumps of just like, this is the fucked up shit that happened in my past. And I'm like, but that worked though, because at the same time he's doing that, I don't really call that an exposition dump

because there was something happening in the scene. It was like, it is, but that's an exposition dump done right. There's something happening in the scene where he's kind of explaining why his torture, to this guy, that pushes the scene forward. The thing is pure exposition dump. The only thing that saves it is the performance. Right.

I thought it was performed well. But that is an expedition dump. And I don't know, to be honest. You think they should have flashbacked it? No, I did the story sounded horrifying. I didn't want to see it. But there was just a moment where I was like, I think you brought it up where,

Of course, the show is trying to show us about these cycles of violence and revenge. And I think that is trying to show that, like, oh, like, Dina, Dina is a part of this as well. And Dina's connecting to Ellie because she's just like, I've had that feeling of having my family taken from me. And knowing what that revenge. And knowing what it, but there was almost like a level of almost I kind of wish I had learned it slower or learned it in a different way, not just in what I think probably. But you wouldn't want to see it, though. You wouldn't have wanted to see some random scene of some young girl out there and a raider coming to her house. You don't think that that would have worked.

I think that probably would have worked better just in terms of, yeah, just making me, I believe the story. But it was just, I don't know if I needed to see it. I just felt as if the writers and the team and the directors were like, we actually need to explain why the fuck Tina is going along with his dummy mission. Like, I mean, I mean, I think you don't, I don't know if you needed the whole like Santa Fe store. I think it's mainly for like why she keeps going. Before like go there was like Joel, me and Joel had a connection too. Like that's also my guy.

Right. I'm, let's, we want to get back, get our lick back. Let's go get our lick back. You know what I'm saying? So I think it's for like in that moment, should we keep going? Right. Right. Because again, Ellie has a crisis of faith.

She's like, yo, you're pregnant. This kind of. actually doesn't make sense now that I think about it. I should not be putting you in danger. This whole place is like a complete and utter, like, it's a, it's just nasty. We should go. She's like, actually, we shouldn't go because I've been where you are and I didn't have the opportunity to, I got my link back by the same time, like my mom and my sister were dead,

right? If I could have done something more, I would have taken that chance 10 times out of 10 if I was home, right? And I had to watch my mom and dad or my mom and sister. get beat down, I would have the same feelings, too. So at the same time, I understand, like, we could go. You have an opportunity that I didn't have. It's the same opportunity.

Mm-hmm. What do you mean? No, but I mean. She killed the guy who killed her. Yeah, but I mean, like, if she had watched them do it, she didn't get to see them do it. Yeah. Right.

And so it's like, if I had been, if I had seen somebody killed. Oh, you didn't have the opportunity to get your leg back in real time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, Dina had an opportunity. Dina had that opportunity. Yeah.

you don't, I'm here to help you get that opportunity. Right. So if you want to go, it's cool. But no matter what, we're like this. We're together. I mean, in narratively, I do think it works from the fact of, like, if you think about what Dean is going through, not only was she there when the Raider,

she wasn't there when the Raider killed her mom and sister. She was drugged when Joel was killed. So, like, she's robbed of the moment again of just like this person who I grew, who I'm very close with, who is family to me, I wasn't there. I couldn't do anything. Like, I had to do something after the fact. I just, it was,

and I guess what I'm probably talking about now, what my resistance to this episode is, is just that it feels very compressed time-wise. I even think when you're playing the game, you're investing like hours and hours, and you're getting better playing as Ellie, and like, you're seeing your own growth. And for this, I was just like,

damn, they found Nora really, really quick. And like, I'll say this, the Nora stuff in terms of just like when they go down to that basement level and they see all the court. I was like, this is the coolest shit ever. So there's parts in this. Same thing with the subway from the previous episode. There are action set pieces of this show that I'm like, this is fucking rad. Can you enjoy the show without Joe? I don't, right now, I'm not so sure.

Like, in terms of just like, I have not seen that void be filled yet. And I think they're trying to do it in the aggregate. where I'll get a good Dina scene and I'll get a good Jesse scene or I'll get a good Jeffrey Wright scene and like in the aggregate I'm seeing all these great actors and even Bella Ramsey.

Bella Ramsey, they do an amazing job in certain parts but there is not that one central figure for me to like the TV thing for me to want to like watch it every week if I'm being real. Do you think Craig Meisen is Billy Bean right now? It's like we don't have Joe

but we can recreate them in the aggregate. Yeah. When Jesse pops in, the reason I did not like that moment where I was just like, I was like, yo, isn't you telling me story-wise that Ellie is not only is Joel, but like that's her trajectory. Yo, you got to prove to me that Ellie, Ellie is capable. And I'm not even talking about, I'm talking about performance. I'm talking about character.

I'm talking about just the way you carry a show. You don't think Velarazzi's risen to the occasion in the absence of Pedro Pascal? that's that's a that's a tough question to ask them i mean is it yeah because that because that that question um and let me tell you let's just talk about the sagie nature of this entire i do i'm having a great time so let's just talk about the sagi nation of nature of this entire conversation but if you ask if you ask that question just like that it makes it seem like there's something that Bella Ramsey is doing that is less impactful than what Pedro Pascal was doing.

And let me tell you, so we can't have these conversations devoid of the context, that there are a bunch of people out there that are being assholes just for the sake of being assholes. Sure, sure. Okay. So if you say you don't feel like Bella Ramsey's rising to the occasion, I don't think it's that simple. And that puts you in a binary to where you have to say yes or no.

Right. And if you don't like what she's doing as essential character, then the answer is no, but it's not because she's not rising to the occasion. It's because the landscape of the show is changed. And I do, and I ask that in good faith. And I do think it is because Joel and,

and Ellie's motivations aren't all that different in terms of when. I have to name something real quick. We in our bag in the new setup, there's something about the conversation that's flowing. You think the couch is, yeah, I think the couch is really, I don't know what's going.

I don't know what's going. I think when Joel was going through the hospital and mowing down people and blowing people down the whole thing, we were like, go, Joe. All right, bro. Jesus Christ. He was, he was shooting people, blowing people. The whole thing. The whole hospital?

The whole hospital. The whole hospital. He blew the whole hospital. Blow back. He blew the whole hospital. That whole floor was getting blown. That's crazy. It was crazy.

You got to do what you got to do. You got to do what you got to do. You got to do. The question is, if you had to get the cure, you got to get. is if you had to get the cure out to the people and you had to blow the whole hospital, would you do it? Desper times. Desper times, man. But no, like, when he was on his little revenge thing, it was like, cool, man, go Joe, get Ellie, yeah, we're a team, yeah, let's go, let's go, guys.

Ellie's doing it, and it's like, I don't really, I'm really, like, and again, I don't want to cast aspersions on you or the people listening, whatever, but it's getting. really frustrating watching. We know Joel is, Ellie's not Joel. Joel was a special forces. Man was goddamn near 90 years old. Like he's lived a life. Like we know that he is extremely capable

because he's, this is Ellie, this is like her, it's her rookie ear dog. We know like she's got some talent, but there's still some growing to do. Yeah. We can't expect her to be Joel

and start blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blowing down people like she's like, like she's John Witt. But here's the thing. And I'll use another thing. their HBO show in comparison. When they kill off Ned in Game of Thrones.

Spoils for Game of Thrones. Bro, that show came out. We're going to say it, though. That show came out in 1859. The last time the books came out, the last time the books came out, all the popes were Italian. What are you talking about?

And this is a new age. This is American Pope. I don't worry about it. But in Game of Thrones, I think what they managed to do, and obviously they had the books, is at the end of that first season, you're like,

John DeNaris, Arias, Ares, Sansa, are all of these kids. It's a very similar thing where it's like, these are young actors. How are they going to rise to the occasion?

And what I think that they had was their stories were actually always more compelling than Neds and we just didn't know it. Basically, where it was just like, oh, John's lineage, you start being like,

oh, this is way more important than I thought. Dineris, you're just like, oh, wait, they're turning Dineris into this, like, how is she going to become a world conqueror? And I think when I talk about, Ellie, it's less of what Bella Ramsey isn't doing, and it's more so a wolf and cub story about trying to say,

like getting this girl to a certain destination so you can save the world, is a lot more compelling to me than Ellie being like someone killed my dad, and now I need to go find them. Like that, like, you can make both stories compelling. It's not true. It's just, yeah, no, it's not true, but also kind of true. Yes, but also no, because the actual comp would be ARIA. And we had to watch Aria go through, what do you call it,

assassin school. Like, yeah, Nidja. Once again, they showed us that. Assassin school was interesting. You liked the No Face God? That meant something to you? I liked, I liked Aria with the house. That's what I'm saying about time.

What the hell? Yeah, right. But that was like four or five seasons worth. Yeah, but here's a thing. What I'm saying is if we're only going to get, like, what, maybe another season of the last of us, there does become a point where I'm just like, we're not getting that many episodes.

So at some point, Ellie is going to have to become competent enough to carry what is a very action-forward show. And right now, it's just like every single time we've seen Ellie go out, she's gotten bitten the first time. Well, she got bit the second time, and she's put her friends and family in danger

almost every single time. And if that happens three, four, five times on screen in one season, I'm going to be like, this shit ain't fun to watch. It's annoying. I'm not blaming her for the stalkers. Yeah, no, no, I don't, I don't really agree. Can we talk about the stalkers and the Cordoceps evolution real quick?

Cool. Because the best scene of the episode to me was the first scene. Oh, it's Park. Yeah. Oh, great. It was because I had been informed by the resident last of us experts that Cordyceps wasn't going airborne in the show. Okay.

Good for the good for the show. And then it went airborne. Which was a fantastic turn. Yes. Because it didn't start airborne. It goes airborne, which adds another layer of,

oh shit, we're fucked to the show. And that entire scene, to me, is kind of the stuff that I sort of care about. Which is, which is things are getting worse

and there is a power struggle between all of these factions is the show mining because even like when we get to the end of it we see all of these cordyceps people in the coerceps walls and all that breathing the spores out of them. Breathing the spores out

I'm like yo, we're fucked. I wanted to see all that WLF shit of them like finding the basement realizing they're fucked everybody being like, why, we still in here, you can't tell anybody to your point? I was like, oh, that's fascinating. Like, these people being like, oh, we can bring, because the reveal that I think Craig Mason

does at the end of that scene that was really interesting is revealing like, he's like, yeah, that was my best soldier. And she's like, sorry about your son. And I was like, shit, this was her son that she was talking to on the radio. And he's still alive. And he's still alive. Well, alive in a sense. Yeah.

No. He's down there breathing. So he's a part of cordyceps. So what's happening to those guys down there? I'm sure they're just there to expel spores. Yeah. Also, the cortisps is keeping them alive so they can expel the spores out. Yeah.

Cortisps is crazy. Also, if I have to be real, if I'm Ellie too, I know that she's immune, but she's just walking around, like, she could just be breathing in these spores. And I'm like, this can't be healthy for you. Probably not. But I think it's the same reason why, like, Deadpool does things. It's like, okay, you can cut my arm off, like, whatever. Like, I'm cool.

I'm straight. You can't touch me. It was pretty sick for Ellie to just be standing over her, just breathing easy. Orifying. I'm not going to lie. This is also why I probably was like, fuck this episode and I get it. Guys, you're going to hate me when I say this. I can't watch this little white girl beat the shit.

I was a little black. I knew it was coming. I will say, though. Okay. I will say though. Wait, am I wrong? Yes. Why?

I was like, I don't know. Absolutely. But when, like, she first. gets to Nora. And I was like, in their chat, and I'm like, that's way too much talking. Way too much talking for somebody not holding a gun. Either blow her down or like, let's, let's leave it. I like, Noah was like, way too much he happened for me. I'm like, yo, Ellie. Me, me caring about, me caring about Nora is like caring about Draymond Green's civil rights. When Draymond Green was like, I'm looked at as an angry black man. I'm like, bro. And look,

Here's the thing, I fuck with Dremont Green. Sure. Likewise. I do. Yeah. But. One of the greatest we ever seen. I fuck with Dremont Green, but, bro,

watching Dremont Green, part of the fun of watching Dremont Green. It's just how he's going to spit it? It's been like, who is Dremont gonna kill next? Yeah. Who's he going to drop kick? Who's he going to, like, do some WWE shit too?

You know, if, if, if right now, what's your boy that went to Duk that play for Phoenix now? Ties Jones? No. Do he went to dude? the white boy. Grason Allen.

Yeah, it makes like half his threes. All of a sudden he's good. What the fuck? So, Grayson Allen, it got to a point to where Grayson Allen, I'm like, Grayson Allen legitimately has a problem.

Yeah. Like, he got to, Grace and Allen was kicking people. Remember on a hostel where you cut somebody's Achilles off? Grayson Allen was like stabbing people. The whole nine, I was like,

he's really sick. He's going to kill. He's going to hurt. He's going to kill on the court. But then he just kind of became regular. Yeah. I mean, he still a little dirty, but he became regular.

not Draymond. Draymond will, he goes from hitting you and your nuts, punched out a teammate. I can't be, I can't march with you, bro. I can't march with you. I can't march with you.

And so Nora, I can't march with you. I can't, I would have marched with you but you said that bitch deserved to die. Yeah, no, you can't do that. I can't do that.

I can feel it. I can name it. Nora, I can't march with you, man. You can only go so far. Yep. Yeah, I can't go so far. I can't march with you, man. All says this, and this is also speaks to like, Ellie, what you doing? When she walks in her room, hey, be like, hey, put your hands above your head.

Because what she does, I hate when villains do this when they like flip some shit to the character's face. Oh, man. That's like, so that's kind of exactly how that goes down in the game where she just like throws some shit at you and you got to chase her through that hospital. It's so annoying. I'm like, Ellie, tell her to put her fucking hands behind her head. Ellie, shoot her in the face. No, because you can't. You got to find out.

Because they're going to all start running. You're absolutely correct. You guys are 100% correct. It's not the smart thing to do. But at this point, Nora was talking to Ellie crazy. I was like, yo, a lot of lip for somebody with their hands above their head. Ellie, stop playing around. This is not the time to get sweet.

Start shooting. Start stabbing. Do something. She runs. And I was worried at first that she wouldn't get Nora. I was like, yo, Ellie, maybe y'all was right. But eventually, they get down to B2, and I was like, listen, no, we're probably not going to give up Abby's location, which, by the way,

I don't know what kind of connection, that kind of like power Abby holds among the people. Maybe it's just a WLF thing. Oh, are you saying that you would give up my location? Absolutely. If you're breathing in spores and waiting to die. No, no, no, it's two things. One, like, I'm petty enough to be like if I'm already dying, right? It's one thing you've got the gun to me.

Sure. But if I'm already like bringing the spores, I'm be petty. Like, you're already going to kill me. I'm already going to die. So at this point, hi, little, uh-uh, uh-uh, before I go, right? You go give up your soldier, the person you was in the trenches with. 100%. I don't know.

I already. I don't like y'all like that. Hold on those people. Tell me as the guy on the first 48. Easily. Yeah. Easily. Guess what?

Arbys? I am too. Well, it's not Arbys, it's a large, it's a large, it's a large, a Baja blast, remember? Yeah. A large Baha blast. That's easy. My boy Ryan, shout out to him

who was a criminal. He's not anymore. He's a good father, good man. But he was, he was for it. But I was like, yo,

you know, how come I didn't want to? I was just asking. Like, how come y'all never put me down with the caper? You guys are out here doing capers?

How come you guys never put me down with the caper? And they're like, man, you don't tell. Sometimes you just know. And he was like,

it's not even that you're going to tell. because you're going to like want to tell the police or something like that. He goes, you're going to get to telling one of your stories and all of a sudden end the story. It's going to be like, so me and Ryan kicked in this dude's door and stole all his dope because he was like,

once you get on these stories, you have no concept of what it is that you're saying. Smart man. And you just, the shit, he's like, man, you're going to tell. You're going to be telling the cops. You're going to try to lie to the cops and the truth is going to come out. So you think North should have just sold?

immediately. I don't think she should have sold. I mean, I know that antagonizing Ellie was probably the wrong thing. Yeah. I think she was trying to do that, though, to throw Ellie off so she could throw her off with and it worked. But also, I'm just like, hell. Why are you letting Nora Gay aside your head?

This makes no fucking sense. I mean, well, no, it actually kind of does make sense because she has been pulled in like three different ways this entire episode. It's like, again, you're seeing somebody who was there when your man's died. Yeah. It's going to feel low. The lights are very bright. Ultimately, the job to get, get done.

But you can't let Nora talk to you like that. You know what needed to happen? This is my favorite lyric of the year when Drake is like, I was talking to Lil Dirk's boy. He was telling me how he was just a medicine. It's her listening to Marvin's room. That's what Ellie needed. She needed to put in her little, like, ear pods, listen to some wham, you know, and just go, like, you know what I'm saying? Like, you need a soundtrack when you fucking murdering.

How come there's so many guitars around? I was bumping on this where I was like, okay, we have maybe a couple too many perfectly preserved guitars. But it's like that in the game, though? There's like guitars. No, yeah, yeah, yeah, they're in the game, you just file guitars. But it's like, but it's, but they find that theater as if that band just set up and left.

I mean, maybe, I mean, ultimately, guys, it's fine. It's good. It's fine. I think it's not. It is fine. Because, again, this is a product of the game. And the entire thing is you've got the guitar to fill the connection back. to Joel. And she begins to remember and then she stops.

And then she stops. Last week, she played the whole take on me. And it, I mean, obviously, like, very emotional, but it, you know, just like her and Joel, like, together that connection. This week, starts to play, doesn't play. And just

puts it down. Yeah. Right. But that's some cut scene shit to me. It's something that works in a video game and in a TV show I'm a little bit like, it is a tad too cute because they just did the previous episode. But it also Bamb in it for sure, but I understand the value of what that scene represents. Only because that we then immediately flashed back near the end of this episode to what will likely be leading into a Joel flashback episode.

Gosh, should we start a band? I don't play the instruments well. But we should all learn to, do we do, first of all, do we know how to play instruments the four of us? I don't know some chords. I know some chords. Can we, should we start a band? Should we all learn how to play an instrument? Okay.

And then maybe at the end of the year or next year, start the Midnight Family Band. Okay. Can we get a bus? We could be like the Triangle. We don't even need a singer. Okay. It's like, oh, Jamba. I love explosions in the sky.

No, why can we be like the roots? You know, we could get Kerm on the, we could get Kermakas are easy. I got to be honest with you, man. The producers room, y'all be salty. Very sassy back there. Yeah, like y'all, we can't get y'all to have fun for nothing. Y'all are two curmudgins. That's y'all news name.

The commudgeonly duo. The cummogynly do-up. Y'all are commudgeon's back there. I'm trying to have fun. Morton's Salt Factory back there, bro. The Salt Factory. Wow. That's the name.

That's the new name. The Midnight's like that is gone. Morning Lori's over there. The Salt Factory is what we're going to call y'all. Try to have some fun. Kerm, can we be your band? Absolutely, guys. Let's do it.

Yeah. Also, really quick, this is also something where I was just like, Dina is very resource. It was getting on my nerves where I'm like, yo, can you let Tina triangulate this shit? She's working on this map. Go do, go, go, go, go off somewhere else. Based on how Ellie was tracking, she couldn't spell triangulate.

I was like, this is my issue too? When you was bringing up, is Ellie kind of dumb? I'm like, everybody from Jackson who shows up on the show is like, damn, you dumber than a fucking sack of bricks. Like, they look at Ellie like, you dumb piece of shit. Yeah. Maybe the show, maybe her arc is going to be her becoming more learned and maybe a little bit more capable. Getting her GED.

Maybe getting her GED. I mean, she did, because also, Dita was like, have you heard of the Amish? And I'm like, here we go. Hey, it's a fair point. But once again, though, when she's telling her about the Amish, it goes back to what I was telling you before. The fact that she knows that gives her context for who the seraphites are.

Yeah. And let's talk about these motherfuckers. We watch somebody disembowled on the fucking show. It was a tough watch. That was tough. Again, bro, like, it's one thing to hang somebody. he pleading for his life. They're actually,

we're not really in the business of information, actually. It's not about the message. It's about, like, you know, killing you. And so he's doing his whole, you know, please. And it's one thing to, like, hang somebody, but, like, it's a completely, like, nasty and other thing to hang them

and then put a little, a little blade thing there. And just, like, as he's going up, just literally slice them in half. I was disgusted. and revolted and frankly scared. I honestly, I love the seraphites, because if it's the end

of the world, then maybe like I'm going up against people with machine guns and all I have is bow and arrows. I am doing the psychological shit. I am painting. I'm like, I'm painting the blood on the walls. We disobeyed by the motherfuckers. Because here's the thing, the WL-11 is about

to run into the woods after them. I'm like, is the woods affected? I'm like, now they're like, those are crazy seraphite motherfuckers is out there. They got crossbows. Like, I was like, oh, they really scared at these people.

I would be too. For good reason. Jesus. Disimbalt. Nah. Who do you think? Would you be the guy? Because here's the

of everybody who has the jobs with the seraphite, there's a person who got to set up the news. There's the guy who has to do the disemboweling.

I feel like the best job is the guy who gets to like paint with the blood. You could be like, all right, I just got to. Muse?

No. That's begging for an infection. Yeah. Wait, which one would you want to be of the serifite? The guy that it's the bucket that hang that like they stand on i don't want to be the knife guy i think

the hang guy you know i'm saying it's a lot of it's a lot of actually no the knife guy might be that because you're the rock star and like once you do that you're kind of yeah but you know what you're saying like the wolves you know the prophet you got to like the whole thing like i'm not really i can be the guy going hey maybe we shouldn't do this why they'll hang you next yeah guess who's next man let me tell you something i've told y'all this before nothing gets van like stabby stabby stabby stabby stabby stabby It's tough. Really?

Yeah. It's tough to watch. Shooty, shooting, fine. Stabby, stabby, bad. Stabby, stabby bad.

That's why I like, I love prison movies, but they're such a hard watch. They're just going to, any time they bring out a shade. It's like, 80 times when they, how many times are you going to stab to me?

Yeah. You stabbed them. Like you've got to just like a tooth, like a toothbrush. But you're stabbing them so many times, man, give them a chance. Nah, I mean,

the whole thing is to not give them a chance. The whole thing is to kill them. But, but the serifites to me, we are getting clear definitions, in my opinion, of everybody's motivations, Sarah Fights, WLF. We're getting a little bit further away from Jackson.

Well, except for when that Jackson comes running. I know, but let me use the whole Jackson ethos. Yeah. But we are getting a full understanding of the pitfalls of the stakes and the dangers of this world. And more to the point, the dangers of indoctrination by following the seraphites and then following the WLF.

Because all these people are people that have been highly indoctrinated. Do Jesse and Tommy return in the game at the same way as they do in the show? No. And I think it's safe enough to say that when you happen upon Tommy in the game, Tommy had left before Ellie and Dina. to go off on his own revenge mission.

Because again, the differences between this and the game, Tommy does not have a child, Jackson is not left vulnerable due to an attack. Tommy is informed enough to just go off and do a revenge mission for himself. Then you come upon him when Jesse comes after you guys. But in this, they follow you because you've left and because Jackson is now vulnerable.

So that's the biggest change for them as far as to follow you rather than go off on the road. Yeah. Stuff. Look, now we'll get to the pluck, the pluck corner. The show is plucky. It's a plucky show. It's a plucky show.

It's a plucky show. And, you know, it's based around pluck. It's based in pluck. It's a show that has a plucky lead. And every time she's on the screen and she's not running, just pluck. Sure. Okay.

The question is, is the pluck ruining the show? No. Uh-huh. But if you're somebody like myself, who's adverse to pluck and doesn't like teenagers doing stupid shit, there are times in the show where you go,

Charles said that the show was playing like some YA shit a couple of weeks ago. I didn't agree then, but nah. But, It is a little YA. So I have a question. Is this is maybe like a fundamental question about Pluck?

Is it Pluck in general when you just see kids doing stuff? Or do they have to be successful at what they do, despite not having like the base knowledge to do this thing well? Pluck is kids being obtusely dumb. Yes. and that being central to the story. It's tough for me. So, like, they're just, like, three stoogesing their way through an adventure.

Like, their way. Aria wasn't plucky? I get you. But is that the kind of comparison that you're making for them in the show at this point? No, it's, it's like, because I'm bringing this all the way back, that would mean that Kate Bishop Hawkeye is not plucky because she's actually.

No, she's plucky. She's plucky. So here's a difference. She's bumbling their way through. She's not bumbling her way through. That's married through sinners. She was kind of. If you take like teen movies, like they're not plucky to me in like a super bad or a breakfast

club. Like there is a level of where I'm just like when I watch it. They know who they are. They knew who they are. They're almost teenagers to me, even if you speak to teens, you're just like, oh, you're like a mini adult. You might not have like the maturity or like the life experience. But like if you talk to like a smart high schooler,

you're just like, oh, you kind of are, you can voice yourself and have opinions and you're like, I talk to you like you're a mini adult. Plucky to me is when you have a teen or kid character that is running around and they're not only obtuse, they're obtuse in a way where I'm just like, why are you acting like you're a baby? Or like, why are you acting like you have no common sense? Like, why are you, a lot of it to me is competence. A lot of it is like, if you're just being annoyingly, like, cloying. The, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, you're, the, you're, the, you, the, you, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, I just, I just, you're, I

want to, like, be very clear. That's the definition of pluck. That's what we're cementing the pluck definition as. I can say whatever I want. Then we just, anything is possible. Then we can start lying. That's true. Anything is possible.

But when I say plucky, you know who's plucky? A.J. Soprano is plucky. A.J. Soprano is plucky. A.J. Soprano, that's a. But Meadow is not plucky. Meadow ain't plucky. AJ, this is the pluck meter. You couldn't watch Avatar because.

it was too plucky. Yeah. Which, Avatar is very Plas Airbender. But look, by the way, sometimes Plucky is part

of the story. Sometimes, ha! This was him. This is Avatar dude. What's his name? Ang.

Nih. Ang. What did you say? Oh, his name is Aang. This is him. Ha! By the way,

Avatar, don't get mad, guys. Objectively good show. Okay? That you didn't. Objectively good show. You couldn't finish

because of the plug. Just not. Honestly, you know what the question. Hey, guys, Go, can be plucky.

Well, kid Goku could be plucky. I mean, but Goku, the character of Goku is sometimes like, ooh, we have terrible fault. You know what the difference is? You're not going to get this. The difference between Plucky and not the original Teen Titans go. I mean, the original Teen Titans, not plucky. Teen Titans go. Pluck.

Well, obviously. I mean, they're made for two different completely different. Yeah, but there's a difference. It's similar characters, but when they're little mini guys, you're just like, this a very plucky show. I really feel like the team titans, you like, Robin is beating the shit out of fucking slay. Young justice, not plucky. justice not plucky.

Again, I feel like we're off the beaten path here when it comes to the plush that we're talking about the last of us. Steve, Steve, they're just making it up. What? They're just making it up. Yeah. They're just making it up. None of this is real.

None of this is real. They're just making it up. But it's fine. It's okay. I get the fact that like the competence, quote unquote, you know why? You guys don't want to come to terms with pluck because you guys are fluking. Probably. You guys don't want to come to terms with pluck because you guys are plucky and that's

okay. I mean, you're defending your. her own. The cynicism of the world hasn't exactly caught into us yet. Exactly. The Oxford definition of plucky is having or showing determined courage in the face of difficulty.

Okay. Right. So, yeah, it's one thing for, like, for example, young justice. I would argue that, yeah, they're, honestly, I would argue that they're more plucky than the Avatar guys, the Aang, Katara, Saka, and them.

This is Aang. So not. That's not. This is, I can't take this. I don't know why you're twisting your mouth like that. Because that's how that's how the little nigga look. The little, it's crazy. But also, it's inherently part of what makes these, all of these young teens,

what makes them them is that you're a child. We don't believe in you. You're not supposed to be able to do this. They're not fucking menaced society. that all right shit it's like everything thing

is not plucky shit no Christ like what the rest of peace came shit no it was no

it was no plug do they let black kids be plucky no they don't let black kids be plucky we can't be plucky we can't be plucky we gotta like we gotta go to school

oh wait no I am I am wrong they did let the RIP to little homie he was a little plucky what's it oh he was a little bit the two brothers

yeah but that was kind of plug you, but like black kids, when they show black kids, black teenagers, they got to wake up in the morning. Goodbye, grandpa, have a good day. Here's your food. Then put on a fucking nis as they walked to school. This is how every show about a black team begins. I love you, grandpa.

I'll be back there to give you your medicine later. Then they put their headphones on and nods. Naz's like, Naz's like, Naz's like. Some old-school rap they're not supposed to. They're not supposed to be listening to. Yeah. They was born in like, if you don't put on that gunner. Then they go to the store and say hello to Mr. McGillicuddy.

Yep. No, but my, I hate when this happens. I'm just like within the first 50, 20 minutes, the black kid walks out and he sees the fine sister and she's always just. She was somebody. She's, yeah. The most stereotypical ass me. I'm like, come on, bro.

And then his homies next to him is like, hey, bro, quit staring, dog. You got this. You got this. You got this. Go talk to her. Has a terrible day. And then something terrible happens to them at school. Something terrible.

And then that's what the show is about. Wait, so you're saying black people can't have a fair spewler's day off. Hell not. If they ain't let us have one yet, hell no. I would love a, bro. If they saw a black man driving that car, that Ferrari. Do you know what? You know what?

You know who used to make, I'm going to be real. Do you know who used to make movies? And the movies were just a. about black kids having teenage hijinks, couldn't play. House party. House Party, too, that was in college then, but House Party, House Party two, class act,

it was about hijinks. Now, there was some gangsters in these motherfuckers. Right. But it was about hijinks. It was about, you know, they was dancing, freestyle rapping. It was black youth culture. So wait, you're saying.

After men's society came, it was like, will you survive to be like, the walk home? There can be a black breakfast club. The security guard is just like when they... Well, I mean, we could do a black breakfast club, but the school's going to be in the food desert. So, like, where the breakfast's coming from?

No, but it's like... There's going to be bars on the windows. Yeah. There's going to be a metal detector coming in. But look, we should have all of these stories. And there have been some. You obviously dope. Yeah.

Yeah, dope. What's like that? They're plucky. They're plucky. They're a little plucky and dope, if we'd be in honest. Yeah. I mean, there are some. There's a new one coming out right now.

that's based off of Judy Blum. The Judy Blum book, Homegirl who did girlfriends, did that, directed that. Mara Baracka Kiel. Now, there is teen pregnancy in this from what I know, but that's also the Judy Blum. Well, the new Kiki Palmer Cizzo Joint these days, that was a plucky movie to be. That's a good, these days, movie about black people just trying to solve a problem. Okay. So here's what I figured in Steve.

This is for us. Yes, sir. There's no winning this debate, right? Because if they are young and unsuccessful, They're probably women too. They're probably women too. They're plucking. If they're young and they are successful, it's quarter flipping.

Right. There's no, there's no, no, no, no, no. No, no, no. If, if you can have a skill where you've demonstrated how you've acquired that skill, it's not a quarter flip. Like you just said you didn't like Aria learning how to be an assassin. I said it was born. I didn't say that I didn't accept her learning. Let's say that aria kills the Night King and that whole thing.

it doesn't happen. It's a quarter flip. It's not quarter flip now because we watch the development of the character over time. Would you call art? I wouldn't call, like, Aria to me was plucky in like season one, maybe a little bit of season two. Well, she's around a hounder shit. That pluckiness is gone. It's gone. That's all I'm saying. Like, you can be a small little homie, but you don't got to be plucky about it. Yelena, Yelana and Kate Bishop. Kate Bishop, plucky. To me, Yelana is not plucky. Yeah. Look, you guys, I've been enjoying The Last of Us, but I will say, I'm enjoying The Last of Us, I enjoyed this episode. This is a lot of pluck for me.

It is like the Last of Us episode, What the Pluck is what we should call it. Like this is, this is, this is a lot of pluck for me. Yeah. There's a lot of pluck. But Jesse came in and he was annoyed at the pluck. Don't even fucking act like he wasn't. Shut up. Like, he was annoyed at the pluck.

Go back and watch the scene. No, Jesse was hot. Jesse was hot. Shut up. Shut up. You're ruining everything. I was going to be the president. I'm probably going to die.

I was going to be the president of the United States of America. I'm probably there. Can you imagine if Jesse in that moment learned that Dita was pregnant, he'd be like, oh, hell, no. Oh, yeah. And really, like, there's nothing he could do because really what he would want to do, Because really what he would want to do is just, you know, put hands on Ellie, but he can't. What?

All right. All right. Oh, if Jesse, if Ellie's character were male and he stole his girl and then took his pregnant girl into a battle zone, those two people are fighting. Wait, so you're saying if this was Elliot and he's just like, we raising a kid now? If that happened, there is going to be a fight. They are going to have a fight. Now, they can't fight and they shouldn't fight. They can't fight and they shouldn't fight.

But those two characters are going to have a fist fight. It's going to be a part of show. You're certain about that. I'm one million percent true. I mean, if Jesse comes back, it's like, oh, we're here. First of all, there's going to be a male thing with the fact that you with my girl now. You've had sex with my girl. She's pregnant with my baby.

He doesn't know that. Whatever. When he finds out. This happened in walking dead. Rick? John Bernthal. It's the same thing. And you know Rick that whole time is just like.

If those two characters are male, they're going to fight. It's the same thing. John Burnda was on the walking dead. That seems like a million years ago. Wait, what was this character on the on the wall? Seth. I mean, he's got something to tell you. I got something to tell you.

How did he die? He got, well. Small alert. He got turned into a zombie. No, but I remember reading him in the comic. I think Rick had to kill him. Because he turned into a zombie right before he got killed. And then there was that whole thing of like, who's the baby?

Oh, no, no, no, no, no. It's not true. He got killed, but then he got killed again because there was a thing in the walking dead that whenever you died, you turned into a zombie. Yes. Right. So I remember, I think he got killed. What was his character's name?

Seth? Something like that. I think he got. shirt, he got killed, but then he, he turned into, it showed him

turned into a zombie, like right after he was killed. Shane. Shane. Shane. Shane. He got killed. Rick was not fucking,

Rick was very happy to be like, he got to get Shane. But Shane was also wilded. Like, I was just like, let me tell you something. I thought was wilded on that show. I think Shane was looking out for Rick.

Also, we do have to say, if I'm Ellie, I'm being a smart ass to Jesse. I'm like, hey, yo, no paternity test. You feel me, my boy? We don't know. You might be the father.

You might. To your point, to advance point about Jesse and Ellie, like that scene when they're in the forest. And just like, all right, well, we'll meet up with Tommy. We'll get back home. Everybody's safe. And Ellie's like, nah. And you'll be back like, excuse me?

Do you do not understand, like, the entire point of this operation is to get you and Dana back safe. I don't really understand like where, you know, your mental is at right now. But you have to understand. came all the way out here to bring you guys back. It's not really a... There's not really a plan B, essentially. You know what I mean?

We have to kind of... We got a thing we got to do. Once Dina gets shot with the arrow... Like, come on. I'm looking Ellie in the face. And he's like, you don't want me to leave your ass fucking right here. Let's go. Let's move.

Come. Stop playing. That's a wrap. What do you mean? You're talking about Pascal showing up at the end. Everybody looks so happy and sweet. Go for it. He's beautiful.

Flashback happy. Flashback, baby. Shout on to Pedro. We need it. We need that way. Y'all gonna say y'all gonna love next week. Yeah, yeah. Y'all gonna be like, man on screen.

Hey, I think the show could really, to be honest with you, I think the show works far without Pedro Pascal. Like, I really do. I don't, I'm not missing Pedro Pascal. I feel like y'all are pandering this episode. You're afraid. Not panes. Y'all afraid of the folks.

I like the show the way it is. I'm not missing Pedro Pascal in the show. I'm not. What I am is I'm saying that what they are giving me in lieu of Pedro Pascal is something that I typically don't like when I watch shows. Not the Last of Us is not, not that it's not good, but typically I don't like shows about plucky teenage people doing stuff.

I don't watch that. And I think two things can be true for being honest. I've seen a lot of, like just critics, people online who have fallen off the show, who to me are different than the bad faith actors who are just like, we hated the last episode. part two, we never liked Bella Ramsey, we don't like Ellie being the main character. I'm like, those people, I'm not talking about that.

I do think it is okay to be like, hey, it's a flawed show. The new version of the show, it's different. It's not bad. But I'm like, if you're going to ask me, is this living up to the heights of season one, it's not being a hater to be like, not yet. Like, we've had really high highs, but like the lows are a little bit like, oh, okay, we got to iron this fucking shit out. But there's other things.

We're not in Jackson anymore. We're in a new place. It's a transitional. Like what the president says. Momentary pain is a transitional time. All right. Steve's president. All right.

Not my president. I'm excited to see what it looks like next week with all Reed Richards back, man. Reed Richards. It's going to be fun. Fantastic Four. You think we'll get him telling Ellie what happened? Maybe? Maybe.

Could be. Guys, before we get out of here, we have a little bit of nerd news. It's been reported in some of the trades that our boy, I would say our friend of the podcast, Jake Shrier, director of Thunderbolts, beef among many other things, is now one of, if not the top contender for the new X-Men film. So, Van, really, really quick. Feelings on that, excited. Are you surprised? I'm excited.

I think that when you watch what he did, Thunderbolts of the ability to take these characters and give them emotional stakes. That's what the whole X-Men thing is. And that's what he was able to do. Visually, I think the X-Men in the MCU, they are going to need a freshening up.

You're going to have to be able to have the X-Men world, which is a lot more fantastical than the MCU world, to a degree. I mean, the MCU world got pretty fantastical there, but you're going to have somebody that needs to be able to bring the X-Men

into a world where it seems like they belong. And I think he can do that. I like this visual style. I like this, face it on like a storytelling from what I saw of him in Thunderbolts. I mean, I think also what this tells me is that I think the the genius of early Marvel is that they would

take these directors who may not have super big movies under their belts, but are obviously talented like the Rousseau's or Coogler or Waititi. And they put them in this system where it's like, oh, now that you know how to make a Marvel movie, almost we're going to give you more, we're going to give you more money, more chances. And I just think that pool has just been decimated in recent years. And I think they're finally getting back to like, Matt Shackman did Wanda Vision. So they're like, all right, you did Wanda Vision we're giving you Fantastic 4. Daniel Creighton, who did Chong Chi,

he's getting to do the new Spider-He was supposed to do King Dynasty, he's doing Spider-Man. And I think with Jack Shrier, they're like, okay, we're tapping someone who's proven that not only Kenny Shepard one of these films, but he can do team dynamics, he can, like, we trust him. And I think for a lot of fans, they're probably like, we wanted a bigger name, why couldn't have been this guy or that guy?

But I do kind of think making a good Marvel movie, is almost different than making any other movie. I think it's just a, it takes another skill. I think so. I think what's interesting for me is, you know, we had Jake on and, you know, he talked about doing a lot of this stuff practically. And I'm interested to see how he makes,

you know, Patrick Schwarzenegger shoot lasers out of his eyes. Patrick Schwarzenegger. The Syrackebrose. I really don't want Patrick Schwarzenegger. That wouldn't, yeah. I mean, it looks apart. Looks apart. Yeah.

Looks the part. Patti pat. Yeah, but I mean, like, he's a good actor. No, he's a good actor. I like them on White Lotus. He's just... What do we say, Jack Wade? We're like Jack on the interview.

We'll see. I'll fuck with Jack, but... Jack doesn't have the Cyclops thing. Jack Wayne, I think he could do a good villain. I can see him. We could put him... Mr. Sinister. It's tad old for me.

But no, like, I'd be interested to see what like a practical X-Men movie looks like, to your point? It's a lot of... Fadaskol, all of these people with these powers are very much. They're not shooting, shooting, shooting, punchy, you know what I'm saying? They're shooting laser out of their eyes. They are...

Ham thing for place to place. They're getting claws out, you know. So we just to see, like, what a practical X-Men movie would look like. It would probably be a little different than what we got in Thunderbolts. But the whole thing is family. The whole thing is connection. And so having Jake be behind that with his work at Thunderbolts making, again, a lot of characters we don't really care about. Like, aside from Elena, U.S. agent, throwaway, ghost throwaway.

Like, bringing that same connection that he did to the Thunderbolts, he can bring to, like, X-Men characters that we have so much history with and that we love, we have all those connections to if you can bring that same kind of empathy and that same kind of connection to them.

And that century scene, here's a thing with a little bit of more of a budget. I'm like, oh, okay, you could do scenes where I'm like,

this action is crisp. I want, I want to see what, like, Shryor could do with a little bit more money, bigger characters, you know,

big canvas. Yeah. Instead of, well, I mean, we could have got Thunderbolts too, but,

you know, I guess it's doomsday. What director because there were people were like, yeah, I love this, and people like, I don't know. What director out there do you feel like

they could get for like a reasonable amount of money who also isn't going, is also okay with not having a lot of control at this point? I don't, I can't imagine. I would rather Coogler do

an X-Men movie than Black Panther 3, but like, you know, obviously he could do an X-Men movie. but I think where he shines is when he's able to infuse a lot of himself. That is fair. And so with Wakanda Forever and with Black Panther, those work as Marvel movies, but they also work as Ryan Cooler's narratives or thoughts

on these specific issues or these specific things. And I don't think he's going to be able to do that with the X-Men. And it feels like when we talk to Jake, the amount of control that he seemed to have around that project was actually a lot more than we might have expected because every time that there was either pushback about using a certain character or using certain things that he might have had,

it was a collaborative thing, Jake's words, not mine, and it seems that if you can prove yourself to be like not only adequate but quite good in that environment, then you get another at bat, and then you get another at bat. And then it kind of gets to be when you have that kind of freedom to push those boundaries outside of a more seasoned director or a bit more of an expressive one, that seems to work pretty well.

I like the idea that Jake has gotten a good team and character dynamic driven story behind him that looked great, that felt great, that was very entertaining, and this is another level up. This is perfect for him. I use the word involvement, not control. Sure.

There we go. Yeah, I don't think he had very much control. I just don't think you do as a director on Marvel. I think you're in charge and you're running, you're running the show. But I think the control comes from Feige and the rest of the guys there but it's just the way that it is. But I think I was surprised

to your point that he wasn't getting what seems like directives. That it was collaborative and he was involved in every minute decision of it. Because I kind of felt like you know, the way that they've sort of outlined this stuff for the last couple of years

is that really Feige is the de facto director of all these movies. Yeah. And that the actual director of the film are executing his vision on set. And perhaps that's changing now because we've had reports of Captain Feigy being too hamstrung in like the earlier Disney Plus days where there were a million projects that he had to oversee and didn't even have time to get in the types of feedback or oversight that he would have had, knowing the Thunderbolts is like coming up to the heels of Doomsday,

kind of letting Jake and the other people cook and then kind of having, you know, a bit more like, you know, oversight, yes. but hands on the ground control over the project might be, you know, loosening of the reins. And that might be the thing that Marvel needs. Actually, I don't think that's, I think it's not the opposite, but it's more like it was spread too thin with all the shows and all the movies. There's a lot of content coming out. I forget when it was, but they were like quality over quantity. Yes.

And so like, you know, two movies a year, maybe like two, three shows a year or whatever. And so you don't have to like cover so many productions. you can like focus on like one or two at a time. That way you can get the same kind of QC control that you used to get pre-2020. My personal question, Kevin Feigey, did you personally approve of the She-Hulk Megyn the Stalian twerk off?

I hope so. Maybe he didn't. Did he or did he not? I'm still fucking with it. That's a wrap this week on the Ring of Verse feed. The House of Rar gives you their deep dive on the last of us of Midnight Boys returned to give their instant reactions

to the finale of Andor. you guys nervous or you guys think it's going to be awesome? I think it's going to be great. The show has not disappointed us thus far, and I think we're going to get there. We're going to get there. As well as button mash and more House of R coming soon. Our producers in the Salt Factory are Alleyas and Eris,

Jonathan Kerma, Steve Allman, Joe Meade the Explainer at dinner on our socials, hashtag Jeremy Skittle. Jomskittle. Jomskiddle. Jomskill. Jomskill. Jomskill.

An additional production from Arjuna Ramka Pound. Chuck, take us up. We have our X-Men director. The seraphites are getting sucky-sucky. And I apologize to Ellie, but I am not enjoying the fucking thing. Pew!