The Ringer-Verse - 'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 6: The Gamer Guide. Plus, the Game's Guitarist! | Button Mash

Episode Date: May 22, 2025

Ben and Daniel "do it all over again." First, they give their reviews of Season 2's penultimate 'TLOU' episode, "The Price," and then they break down the episode's departures from and additions to the game.  Then they speculate about what could be coming in the season finale and beyond. Finally, Ben talks to Chris Rondinella, the musician who performed "Future Days," "Take On Me," and other songs in 'The Last of Us Part II,' about how he played Joel and Ellie. Intro (0:00) Reactions to Episode 6 (4:24) Interview with Chris Rondinella (1:19:08) Outro (1:32:59) Hosts: Ben Lindbergh and Daniel ChinGuest: Chris RondinellaProducer: Devon RenaldoAdditional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

All right, my birdie buddies, my far saving pals. My eagle enthusiast, it's Joe House here. Major season is finally upon us. The Masters, the PGA Championship, the U.S. Open, the Open Championship, and Fairway Rowan is here to break down all of the storylines. Offer a little help on those betting cards for every single major this golf season. Join me and our Incom. comparable accomplice our tour boots on the ground.

Nathan Hubbard, as we guide you from Augusta all the way to Northern Ireland, Royal Port Rush, away we go. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphaya offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Tramphaya, proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's

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Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfair radio.com. This episode is brought to by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and make it a mess. You don't need weather tech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about this. those weather tech seat protectors.

So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. Hey, kiddos and welcome into the ringerverse, your nexus feed for all things fandom. I am Ben Lindberg, senior editor for the ringer, button mash host, and docent at the Wyoming Museum of Science and History. joining me today is a colleague who took a mighty effort to find. Ringer staff writer Daniel Chin.

Hello, hello. This is the Ringiverse Last of Us Gamer Guide for Season 2, Episode 6, The Price, written by Craig Mason and game writers Neil Druckman and Haley Gross, and directed by Druckman. We have reached the penultimate episode of The Last of Us Season 2, and thus also our penultimate gamer guide. Hope you all find yourself someone who loves you like a TV podcast, Madcaster loves saying penultimate, but it is true.

There's very little runway left before this show goes back on break, and there's a lot to get to both today and next week. So let's start, as we always do, with our spoiler warning. We will be discussing everything from the HBO show through season two, episode six. We will not be discussing the show's season finale. In fact, we can't because we haven't seen it. But everything else from the Last of Us universe is fair game, so to speak. including events from The Last of Us Part 2 that haven't happened yet on the show.

So we will be later speculating about what might happen on the finale with our knowledge of what happens on the game. Now you know, be warned before you proceed, but we hope you will proceed. And we hope you'll contact us at ringerverse gaming at gmail.com. At the end of this pod, I've got another short interview on tap with someone who is involved in the making of The Last of Us Part 2. in this case musician Chris Rondinella, the man who secretly played an indispensable part in two indelible scenes from The Last of Us Part 2. Joel playing Future Days in episode 6, Ellie playing Take On Me in episode 4, those were based on memorable scenes in the game, which featured Chris's guitar work. And he's not only a guitarist, he's an actor, because he played those songs in character. So Ashley Johnson and Bella Ramsey have played Ellie, Troy Baker and Pedro Pescal have played Joe Miller.

Chris Rondinella can claim to have played both characters, and he'll be here later to explain how that happened. But first, the price. This is a departure from the chronological order that this season has followed thus far. We are focusing here on three pivotal flashbacks from the game and also three new ones, and we have advancements of the flashbacks

in one-year increments. This is the influence of Andor somehow already rubbing off on a show that was produced before Endor Season 2 came out. We got the future days scene, the museum scene, the much-anticipated porch scene, just playing the hits here. All the scenes that we've been waiting for

that people have been fearing, they somehow forgot to put in the show. Turns out, no, they planned for this all along. One of these familiar scenes comes much later than it did in the game, another much earlier. They're all lumped together here. We'll talk about that. And according to Druckman,

Episode 6 is what the story is all about. It also seems to have continued the trend that we have discussed of a far deeper division between show first or show only and game first viewers than there was in season two. I'd say this has been pretty polarizing this episode this season as a whole. So how did we feel? Let's start with our quick takes. What's yours? Yeah.

I mean, this was a tough one. I feel like in a vacuum, I thought this was a really good episode of television. I thought it was like, I really enjoyed it on that level. But in terms of an adaptation, that's where I'm very conflicted still. And there's a lot for us to unpack. But I think that's when I was writing this recap, this was the one that I struggled the most with because I was like, wow, so many thoughts that I'm going to later express on this podcast. But it didn't feel like the right place to do it on the website. Yeah.

No, that was for the Normese. That's for the casuals. This is for the hard course. Yeah. Yeah, I felt some of the same things. Let's see. I want to make sure I accurately convey what I'm feeling here because there are things I don't think I can forgive this adaptation for, but I'd like to try.

So on the one hand, I shed tears, very rugged, handsome, hashtag girl dag tears, just like Joel, looked just as good as he did doing it. And that is a testament to the strength of the source. material and our connection to these characters, especially the gamers who've spent even longer with them, and maybe especially the strength of the acting, because the acting in this episode is kind of a cheat code, which ironically, the Last of Us games don't have. But I don't mean that in the sense that it was cheap or manipulative. I mean, casting great actors is what you want a show to do and what a show with HBO's budget and track record can do. But if you've got Pedro

Pascal and Tony Dalton and Joe Pantaliano doing a lot of the emotional heavy lifting, well, that helps paper over a lot of the cracks in the structure of the story. And so my reaction watching this in the moment was highly influenced by that. And then it's almost the more intellectual, cerebral after-action report, the Thursday morning quarterbacking that we do here on this podcast, that I start thinking deeper and trying to look past that. And so in isolation, I agree. Very affecting episode provoked the desired emotional response, mission accomplished.

I absolutely see why it's resonating with some people. And to some extent, it also did with me. On the other hand, this episode, I think, reinforced for me maybe more than any of the others, even some episodes that I liked less, what we've been talking about, which is that for various reasons, I just don't think this story is working as well on TV as it did in an interactive format. And to me, it's not even entirely a matter of the wrong choices being made. I mean, this episode was co-written and directed by the original writers. It's not as if there wasn't a lot of care and thought and expertise that went into this.

It's that video games and TV are different mediums with different capacities. I talked to Tom Bissell about that earlier this week. And it would be weird if there weren't one medium that better suited certain stories. And it just, it seems to me that in contrast to game one and season one, where I would say that someone who only watched the show got essentially the same narrative and emotional experience, at least, without the gameplay, for me, at least season two, thus far as just a lesser version of the story than part two was. And I wonder if you gave Druckman or Gross Truth Serum, whether they would say the same. And, And I don't want to diminish anyone else's experience because if this season has fully landed with you and you're not bringing the baggage to this that we are, then I'm glad. I want people to love this show the way that a lot of people loved it in season one. But I do think that there are just some inherent structural obstacles the way that the Last of Us Part 2 was structured for the medium it originally appeared on that we knew that it was always going to make this season more challenging than the first one. But I think

I may have underrated just how insuperable some of those obstacles might be. Yeah, exactly that last point of something that I was going to say as well. I mean, it's one thing where we're definitely seeing a lot of the differences, the strengths and weaknesses of each medium now. But I think especially looking at how season one and the first game generally have a more straightforward narrative structure. Yeah. And here in this season, because of how much of a different narrative structure that part two takes, we're really seeing the challenges and maybe the limitations that something like TV will have when it comes to adapting a story that's being told in this way.

Yeah. We're going to get into some specifics about that. And there's a lot to like about this episode as well. And we will cover the positives too. So let's get into the big changes and our analysis of them. And we'll talk about the treatment of the three scenes that are ported for. from the game in order first, and then we'll talk about

whether we think the new scenes enhance what we got in the game in some ways, as some of the scenes that our show only have done since the start of season one. So let's start with what is the second scene in the game, the future day is seen, where Joel performs for Ellie.

Of course, it's not Ellie's birthday in the game. It takes place in Ellie's garage, and Joel performs the song on his own without being asked to and prodded to by Ellie. And I'd say Ellie is a little more animated as she's listening to the performance on the show than in the game. But otherwise, fairly faithful, same closing line.

What did you think of the way this scene was portrayed? I mean, this is one of those moments where as a fan, you're waiting for it all season. It's like such a iconic moment between Joel and Ellie. And there is just so much value in seeing these actors, Pedro Pascal and Bella Ramsey, be able to perform it. Like, I mean, you were talking about it earlier with some of the cameos that we get, but it definitely applies to just our stars, too, and how much of a cheat code it really is to have these two phenomenal performers get to bring these iconic scenes to life. Yeah.

When it comes down to the placement, like, I'm still favorable to where it was in the game because it becomes this, like, motif almost. That's recurring throughout the whole game when you have Ellie playing in a different part just to show you how much she is still holding on to this memory that she has of Joel and how much it's pushing her forward towards this revenge quest where she's doing all these terrible things. And to have it towards the end of the season,

it's a little bit different in terms of how we're receiving this information. But I don't know, I do like the fact that just in terms of a structure of having a full Joel episode, full of flashbacks after he's he's already died gives you a very different experience as well. Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely different. I think the timing of it here compared to the game matters less to me or bothers me less than some of the other scenes that there was surgery done and when they came and we'll get to that in a second. Just because we've seen Ellie, yeah, we saw her in the theater just playing the first line of this song and then she kind of

stares off into the distance and then she gets mad and we know what it is that she's remembering. But I think even if you didn't play the game and you hadn't seen this scene yet, you could probably infer what is happening here and that we know that Joel must have taught her to play this song. And I think that's good. If anything, that's been lacking in the adaptation, just that showing, not telling and the fact that they have stated so much and shown us so much up front as opposed to in the game where sometimes it's backloaded and we see a bunch of things.

And then there's a revelation that forces us to reframe what we knew. That's not happening so much in the show. And so I don't mind that it happened here, I guess, that we see this scene later. It is a phenomenal performance. It's not a phenomenal vocal performance. True. But that's on purpose, I think. Let's give Petro some credit here.

I'm not saying he has as fine. a voice as some of his other attributes, but I think part of this is playing a character and reluctant Joel who doesn't want to perform this. And it was a little like that in the game, too, with Troy Baker. I mean, it's not as if Joel in the game has the voice of an angel or something. It almost wouldn't fit his character. You want more of a gruff talk singing. I thought it was true to the game in that sense, just not have Joel be some sort of guitar virtuoso here. And it looked to me like Pedro was not playing, whereas I know Bella Ramsey plays guitar and you could tell in the take on me scene. They definitely shot it differently, yeah.

Yeah, there was a lot of show the face, cut away to the fingers, which looked like they could be Pedro Pescal's fingers, but you never saw his fingers and his face in the same shot. So usually that's a tell. And, you know, I don't expect someone to get good at guitar just for a single scene. But it does add something. I think if you have, say, Bell or M.C., who actually can play guitar and is clearly playing it in that scene, that adds to the very submittalitude. I think it's clear there's a little HBO magic going on. So the museum scene. This was also moved in time, but not by nearly as much.

This takes place at the end of day one in Seattle in the game. And it was largely quite faithful, except that not all of the. it was there. So one thing we mentioned last week was that in the game, this is a long scene. This is a long flashback. And so I was wondering how they would cram it all into this episode. And the answer is they didn't. They cut out most of the dinosaur stuff. Even though it was filmed, you could see clips of it. Like they had the whole set. They showed it in the after the episode behind the scenes. And so it is sort of tantalizing to know that it's out there somewhere. I guess if they make a Blu-ray bonus set, maybe you can see it there. But sad that it's not there, but also

understandable, I guess, because you only have so much time in the TV show and maybe we get the point when we have one of Ellie's hobbies and passions and interests here and adding the dinosaur stuff, lets us spend more time in this warm, happy memory. But beyond that, maybe doesn't advance that much of our understanding of these characters. Yeah, I totally agree. This is definitely one of those things where you just can't be too precious about everything. And it's like you still have the game to be able to enjoy those moments. But it is so wild to me that they actually built all of that.

And we didn't even see it. Like, I feel like I've definitely gushed on this podcast before just about how remarkable the production design and like set design is. But like this whole sequence was just stunning. Like this was definitely one of my favorite just production design moments of the whole across the whole series so far. And being able to see that brought to life was really quite remarkable.

Yeah. We mentioned that the hat from that part of the scene was pictured in Ellie's bedroom in Joel's house in a previous episode, but we don't actually get to see the hat part again, just teasing us. But the rest of it, the space capsule scene was extremely faithful

and just one of the most one-to-one examples of a game scene in this season. And in that after the episode, they did have Druckman talking about or Mason talking about how when Mason saw this scene, he was like, well, we have to have that in the game. And they did just have it.

Do you want to read the quote what Mason said on HBO's official companion pod about the space capsule scene? Yeah, yeah. So he said, there is a danger of inserting ego into this process where you think, well, I can't just do the same thing because then I'm somehow less as a writer.

No, no, no, no. that's the most honest and brave thing you can do as somebody who's adapting material. Keep it. If it's right, you keep it. And that was a moment where it was just like, oh, yeah, why would I change anything? Why would I even suggest changing something there? It works. And I knew it would work on TV.

It's this glorious cut scene. It is television. And then he continues to say, there are moments coming up in season three where I am so excited to replicate through adaptation because it will be different anyway. It's still different. It's Pedro and it's Bella. There's something different. happening there between the two of them and yet it's the same. It's glorious. Yeah. And I'm glad that he

left that alone. And there are probably people hearing that quote who will say, I wish he had taken that advice about other scenes, perhaps. But it is true. That scene is pretty perfect as it is. And it's just there's something so nice, so poignant about that because just imagine what it's like you're growing up in this world and you're surrounded by the bones, the little. bones in this case, but also the bones of a civilization that you can actually experience. And if your dream is space travel, if you're super into that idea, well, you know that's off limits for you. You're just trying to survive, let alone leave the bounds of Earth. So that has to be especially heartbreaking. And for her to just be able to dissociate from that dark

reality for a minute and just the joy on Ellie's face here. And it was, It was nice, I think, in these early flashback scenes before the hormones really set in and we got some teen angst going on. It was nice to see the old young Ellie again. And as we've said, I really blame the writing and directing more than the acting for the flaws, arguably, of season two, Ellie. But Bella Ramsey really is good at portraying Ellie's youthful exuberance. And it was just, it was nice to see that again. There have been a lot of happy moments, especially with Dina this season, but that more innocent childlike way that the face lights up there, it was a treat to be transported back to that era of Ellie here. Definitely.

And I feel like just in all of the flashbacks you see, especially early on, leading up to this one, you just get to see so much of their relationship and how much it's evolved into really this, this father, daughter dynamic. And just like even that moment of Ellie seeing what happened with a chemical burn and just Joel, Joel calling your baby girl, like all these little things where you see like this is what their life was like and this is what it really could have been had Joel not died and had they had a chance to really heal and get back to this place. Yep. And there was another quote by Neil Druckman. This was something he said to Variety when a couple of naughty dog colleagues of his visited the set, just as you said. I'm like, come with me and we walked through this dark hallway with stars, and we got to the space capsule, and I'm like, look at this. I'm emotional, but I've been seeing it

as it's been built. I look at them, and they both have tears in their eyes. The thing that we worked so hard to perfect in digital forms with pixels on a flat screen, now you could stand in it, you could go into it, you could touch it, all the buttons are working, the seats are real, they creak when you sit in them. It felt like we went into the game. It's this really wonderful feeling to know that this incredible crew that I worked with treated the source material with such reverence, it literally moved us to tears. So that's nice, the fact that that feeling that we get as game players saying this environment that we walked around, our digital ad vatars walked around for a little while, and that is meaningful to us. Imagine if you were the one who created that scene

and then suddenly you're transported into that IRL. You can imagine how that would be kind of gobsmacking. So that's nice, and that does speak to the jobs that this production crew did on the set design. Now, there is a different ending to this scene and a darker ending to the scene in the game. In one of the flashbacks, which will get to LEC's actual literal fireflies, and that gets her mind going, that jogs her memory. In the game, in the museum, there's a firefly symbol, graffiti on the wall next to. a dead firefly with a note about how the fireflies have disbanded, and this one has returned to the museum because their parents used to take them there, kind of mirroring the father-daughter experience that Ellie and Joel are having here. And this plays a part in really getting

Ellie's mind working. So it's sort of this bittersweet ending to this scene, which is mostly sweet. The bitter part is that there's this graffiti on the wall that says liars with the fireflies logo. And then Joel stands in front of the S, blocks out the S so that it just says liar. And of course, we can read into that. And this is something that makes her remember, again, the fireflies. And it can't just be this fully happy experience for her. It also casts her mind back to what happened in Salt Lake City and whether Joel is actually telling the truth.

And it's not the only time that the game does this in a way that the show doesn't. So again, we know why this wasn't here. because clearly they replaced that in other scenes with what they actually ended up doing in the porch scene and elsewhere in the show. But it's a bit more, you know, not fully happy and joyous in the game. And it's more of breadcrumbs kind of being laid, right? Just various hints and clues over time as opposed to the big dump that we get in the porch scene. Yeah. I mean, it's a minor thing, but I do like the change of seeing the actual fireflies in a very more naturalistic way.

And just the subtlety of it, because it is a little bit on the nose to see the firefly symbol on the wall and then the wire that all of it lined up. So this was the case where I was like, all right, this is good to pull back a little bit. It's true. The show is not the only version of The Last of Us that can occasionally be a bit unsubtle. I guess you could say, ooh, actual fireflies. Gosh, that's on the nose too. But either way, I guess something that reminds you of fireflies. But let's talk about the porch scene.

This is the main event. this is maybe the most important scene in the game in the show to this point. And it is largely similar to the game scene, or it certainly starts that way. In the game, the emotions are more understated. So both characters get choked up, but we don't really see the visible, the very visible waterworks that we get in the show. And Joel, you can kind of hear the catch in his throat, and he does a manly little harummit. to kind of, you know, tamp that down, but it's not tears rolling down the cheeks

and the seasoned crinkles at the corner of his eyes. We do still get the, I would do it all over again, but there is a lot added to the scene. Now, there's a lot added to the dialogue. There's also a lot added to just the information that is conveyed in the scene. Because the big change is that this conflates multiple scenes that happen in the case.

game over the course of months, right? So it's the timing. We'll get to the timing of when this actually appears in the game versus the show, because that's a huge change as well. But also, in the game, Joel confesses and is confronted by Ellie in Salt Lake City. So Ellie steals off. She goes back to the hospital. She tries to figure out what actually happened there. She finds an audio recording, which is convenient, very video gamey, get the audio log that you. You you find next to a corpse or something. And she realizes she gets confirmation of what she suspected all along about what Joel did. And then Joel shows up looking for Ellie. And she puts him on the spot and says the same sort of thing, tell me now you get one more chance or I'm done,

I'm gone. And he confesses, making a vaccine would have killed you, so I stopped them. Ellie is shaken. Joel tries to comfort her, put a hand on her shoulder. And she says, don't you fucking touch me. I'll go back to Jackson, but we're done. And that's the end of that scene. And then the porch scene doesn't come until months later in the game, in the chronology of the game.

And so here, we are smushing together these two very meaningful scenes. Does that work for you? Does that diminish at all? the emotional import of what happens here. This is the tough question here. I think this is the real key to everything here. For me, I think it does diminish it in a little bit of a way just because of the surrounding events too

in the surrounding context. Because with the porch scene coming at the very, very end of the game, and right after Ellie has just fallen short of actually killing Abby, it's so impactful where it really brings out this whole idea of forgiveness in the way that it's taken this whole time for Ellie to reach this point. And to have this final look at Joel and her trying to forgive her, it makes things align in a way that makes this, the ending so bittersweet because the whole time you'd also

been wondering whether or not the last thing that they had, this confrontation that they had at the party was it for them, between sex and all of them. Yeah. Now that you know that they actually had this beautiful moment where Elie was on this path to forgiveness, it really just changes that final point. And I mean, we'll get into the reasons why they did it because I totally understand that. But I think aside from the nature of making a TV show and the challenges of that and the fact that it's going to take all the time to produce it, the fact that viewers aren't going to see it until later, when it comes down to just the narrative level of it, I think that it hurts that a little bit because even beyond the porch scene, there's this whole other second scene of finding out the cure, which is very impactful in itself. And on a narrative level to have this time for Ellie to be able to come around to this idea of forgiveness, it makes it more believable as well, where it's not just all in one fell swoop where Ellie's just like, eh, you know.

Yeah. So Druckman explained to variety in talking about it with Craig, Mason, it's the first time. I really thought about the time between seasons. Again, the idea that shows go on break. You can play a game all at once, but the show might go away for multiple years. You're forcing the audience to wait. So much of writing is setups and payoffs, and we would have set certain things up

that get paid off years later. That felt too long, especially because this season focuses so much on Ellie's journey and this emotional truth of what did she know, what didn't she know? To wait additional years until season three will come out, or maybe even season four,

it depends where all the events land and how many seasons we have, I was easily convinced by Craig that would be too long, easily. So this is a really meaningful moment. Druckman doesn't dispute that. He fully realizes that and he felt the pressure to deliver this scene. And I get it. I do understand that reasoning. And maybe it would have convinced me too.

But this is, again, going back to what I was saying at the beginning about how, even if you're making the right choice, it is still a concession. It's a concession to the format, to the medium. And there's something about saving that scene for the very end, the punch that that packs when you go through this entire journey, not knowing, not having that closure, in a sense, on the Joel and Ellie relationship. And then you get it. And then you're able to, it just, again, it makes you rethink everything that you've just seen and experienced. And that epiphany, that you have that the game makes you wait for, that is huge, that sticks with you. And I know it feels like it's been a long time since Joel died, but it was only four episodes ago. It was a month ago, granted, and that's longer in real time that it probably was

between that scene in the game and when you get to the ending scene, depending on how quickly you played the Last of Us part two. But even so, I do think there's something perhaps necessarily lost in translation there. And I mourned that, even though I acknowledge that perhaps it was necessary. But again, I wonder just if you'd be bold and say, wait. But that is a lot to ask of audiences waiting until, who even knows, right?

If we're talking about four seasons and we'll get to that later, I mean, that's how old will we be? Will we still have a world? Will we still have a country? Will we still have a civilization? will cordyceps have evolved by that point and possessed us all? Who knows? Yeah.

I mean, at that point, you know, it's probably not going to be HBO MX. It's going to be a whole new streaming service name, right? Yeah. Yeah, it's tough. And the scene itself, so conflating those two scenes, it also makes it a little less believable to me the emotional arc of this scene.

Now, because you have Pedro Pascar, and because you have Belle Ramsey, and because their eyes are watering it, because the tears are rolling down their cheeks, it works, more or less. I think they make it work. But they really have to work hard to make it work because the idea that Ellie would find out about this, and then seconds later reach the stage of saying, I don't know if I can forgive you for this, but I'd like to.

That's tough. That's a lot to happen when he's laying this all on her. Granted, she knows on some level. She's suspected for years. but I think that works better for me when that plays out over multiple scenes that are separated by a lot of time in real life so she can come to terms with this,

she can process it as opposed to going from, yeah, I lied to you and I perhaps stole your purpose in life, but I'm going to begin to forgive you are. It's like the stages of grief and anger and acceptance. It's just, it happens a little too quickly, I think, here. Yeah.

I agree. I feel like that's a sense where this episode has become a little bit of a double-edged sword in terms of how much you get to see of their relationship over those five years in between that gap between season one and season two. Because you do see how this has really been dwelling on Ellie this whole time. And this has been eating away at her and just turned her to this darker place where we just see this really getting to every part of the relationship, seeping into every part of the relationship where even if it's not. directly about this. It is directly about this. So it's definitely hard to believe. And like, again, I do understand that on a functional level. Like, this would be a really long time for

viewers to wait for that moment. But I think because of the impact and because of the purpose that it has in terms of that idea of forgiveness, which we were just, we were just talking about how we were in the revenge tour like last week, right? Like, we're already here at the end of forgiveness. So in that way, that it really changes that structure. And who knows, like, maybe there would be a lot of scheduling challenges a few years from now. It's another thing with, you just can never tell how things are going to play out. So I get it on a lot of levels. But it is, I think, especially for the people that played this game, it's a little bit of a tough pill to swallow.

Yeah, it's quite compressed. It's abrupt. I know that the season perhaps was somewhat compressed and there were the strikes and that affected the planning. but even so, it also maybe makes it a tad too convenient that all of this is happening the night before Joel dies. When you think about that, it's just, boy, great. It shows the right topics. Yeah, really. Just in the nick of time, they managed to get this all out in the open.

Again, if that had happened over the course of multiple conversations, it's a little easier to swallow. It's just, I do admire the Mr. X, the way that they had her walk past the porch and kind of confused everyone. And even though we knew, okay, they're going to have this porch scene at some point where most people knew that. It was clever, I think, to have that little misdirect in there. There's also, I think, the tendency of the show to over-explain things or to have characters say what they're thinking instead of just letting us into it that, which. I think they could trust us more because, again, given the acting on display here, it's on their faces. And so in the game, not only is it a little more understated in terms of the emotions and the waterworks, but also in terms of the dialogue, because in the game, Joel says I would do it all over again.

And that's essentially it. Then Ellie goes right to the, you know, I don't know if I can forgive you, but I'd like to try. And then actually Joel says he'd like that, which was cut from the show. This is a rare instance of the show actually, I guess showing some restraint and removing something. But after adding a lot, because after he says, I do it all over again in the show, she says because you're selfish. He says, because I love you. In a way, you can't understand. Maybe you never will.

But if that day should come, if you should ever have one of your own, well then, I hope you do a little better than me. calling back, of course, to the new scene, the flashback to 1983, which we will get to in a second, that plus the I'll pay the price because you're going to turn away from me. Yeah. We know that, right? Like, that's built in here. We understand that those are the emotional stakes of the scene, that this could be make or break. I mean, she says it, right?

If you lie to me, that's it. And so we understand that even if he tells the truth, it might be too late. their relationship is deeply damaged here. And that's been manifesting itself for months in Jackson. And it could be too fractured to repair. So we just don't need them to say these things in all cases. I feel like the viewing audience would understand that that's what's at stake here. Yeah, I definitely agree with that.

I will say, though, I do appreciate that in this instance, Ellie is pushing back a little bit more than she did in the game because of this reaction, or in terms of the timing of this. Like, at least because, like, you're selfish, like, she is at least calling him out for that. In the game, she kind of just accepts it. But that's also more understandable

in the context of that, too, because they've already hashed this out. This is already, like, long been settled. And the other thing that I appreciated the fact that she actually had follow-up questions this time, because in the game, it's just like, well, I guess there could have been a cure kind of thing. But here it's, like, you know,

ask him about Marlene, like what happened to the actual fireflies, where the Raiders, all of the follow-up questions at least shows like, all right, well, I've been thinking about this a lot and a lot of things didn't add up. Yes. So I'm going to ask you outright. Yes, that is true. I guess in the game, maybe she doesn't feel like she can even trust Joel's answers, but if he's finally putting his cards on the table, then yes, all these things that have been percolating. And maybe she's just so overwhelmed at that moment that she can't even muster the questions. It does seem to me that Joel is a little more confident in the fact that this would have resulted in a cure than I would have been. I would have been like, well, they thought

they could make a cure, but who knows, really, right? Like, there was a lot of uncertainty about that, as I've said, you know, do a few more tests, maybe before you kill this single immune person. And who knows whether they actually could have created a cure that would have worked for everyone. So I would have hedged a little bit, you know. You never know. You're sacrificing. might have been in vain after all, who knows. Another little bit of groundwork that is laid in the game. In the game, in day two in Seattle, there's a flashback scene in a cafe near Jackson with Adam and Sydney, who were two young lovers who ran away from Jackson and didn't

want to live within the rules and constraints of the society, and then immediately they ran into a horde and died. But Ellie and Joel stumble across their corpses, and Adam killed Sydney. did not have the bravery to kill himself. And so he turned into a clicker. And Joel puts him out of his clicker misery. And Ellie, reflecting on this death, says somewhat pointedly, if only they were immune, right? And then kind of questions Joel about, have you ever seen any other immune people?

All those immune people that the fireflies said were everywhere. And Joel insists that there was no cure and maybe all the other immune people are just hiding it the way that Ellie. is. So that coupled with the dead firefly with the note at the museum and the graffiti all of that, that kind of plays the part of what we get in the show, which is Ellie reciting the questions to herself that she wants to ask Joel and then her seeing the fireflies and then the Eugene scene in which we will get to shortly. It's a much different way of building up to this revelation and making it clear that the dam's going to break here and that Ellie has to know. Yeah, I mean, I think that's one of the things that makes it a little tricky because it was

spaced out so well, even beyond just the matter of the reveal or this final confrontation around the truth versus the porch because we have all these other scenes in between that are spread out across the game. And it is tricky because of the length of the season. I don't think this episode packs as much of a punch either if you had already seen Joel in each episode, if the flashbacks have been spread across so much. I think ideally we would have just had a longer season. So they could have just paced it a little bit more and let each of these things breathe a little bit more. But that's part of the limitations again when it comes to this medium and having such a high budget when it comes to this stuff. Yeah, that's what I was going to ask you, whether you liked or accepted the fact that these flashbacks are just all bundled into a single episode instead of spaced out the way they are in the game, where they're broken up by gameplay and maybe hours of gameplay passing between these scenes.

you'd think that just combining them might pack more of a wallup, like, oh, wow, we're getting all of this at once. I think if anything, the opposite is the case for me, that getting it spaced out, finding out bit by bit, it just feels like, you know, the emotional impact of one scene kind of cannibalizes the potential impact of another when they're coming just on the heels of each other in such a quick succession. Yeah, I think for the most part, I don't mind it too too much, except when it comes to this final scene with the porch and the whole thing with the cure. Because they are just such pivotal moments, not just because of how emotional and impactful they are in the game, but just in terms of just narrative. Yeah. And the purpose that they have in reflecting not just the relationship, but what's happening around them. Again, going back to what we're going to see happen with Abby and how much this plays a part in really, showing what Ellie is going through in that state of mind.

Because it was a very similar thing playing that as it is at the end of the first game where it's like they start fighting and you're like, I can't believe Ellie is doing this right now. She's gone all this way. She sees what the Rattlers is doing to these two people. And she still wants to have this big fight in the water. And it's like she's just completely gone off the rails. But when you see this scene afterwards, it's just like it hits so hard.

And it's so effective and it's such a poignant way to close this, this game and maybe series. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support. millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more.

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to protected secrets at all costs. Legacy is a beautiful thing, but only if it survives. Dunn Ranch starring Colehouser, Kelly Riley, Annette Benning, and Ed Harris now streaming on Paramount Plus. So some speculation about how the show might actually end many years down the road because Druckman did confirm that this will change the end of the show. How could it not? But I do wonder whether we'll get an echo of the porch scene,

whether the porch scene will return in some way. so that we will get that callback because maybe the beach scene, the fight, maybe that I hope you do a little better than me that they've now seated with the flashback scene with Tony Dalton and then the echo of it with Joel here. Maybe that comes back again. And maybe it's the memory of Joel saying that

and thinking about that. Maybe that occurs to her in that moment. Maybe that's what stops her because she sees the relationship between Abby and Lev, and she realizes that the cycle is repeating itself here, that might be one way to preserve the primacy of this scene and the fact that it's kind of the closer for the whole emotional arc of the game

for that to come back in some form at the end. I don't think that's off the table. Yeah. And I mean, it's just because the flip side of, you know, they were really questioning whether it's going to pay off whenever this ending of this series actually comes, 2029 or longer. Yeah.

In terms of seeing Pedro again, I think it is necessary because at that point, you would have gone an entire season of just Abby. I mean, we'll see how much they actually end up showing of the farm life with Ellie and Dina. But I think at some point, you're going to need to be reminded of what Ellie is making these decisions of, which is why I do think that we will see more of Pedro at some point.

I agree with you. I think there could be some echo of this because I think it's also just necessary because we need to be reminded for four or five years from now of what we're even doing this for because I don't want to be thinking back like, oh yeah, half decade ago. Yeah. Joel died. Peter Pascal was on this TV show still. Right.

Yeah, it would be, yeah, if we haven't seen Pascal for years by that point and he comes back in some form, if it's not just a disembodied Obi-1 voice saying this line, in her head or, you know, blue-glowy Pedro Pascal forced ghost standing on the beach, looking at Ellie, frowning a little, perhaps, a tear rolling down his cheek. Yeah, no, if they flash back to the scene, of course they could just flash back. It might not be new footage. But yes, that would be, I think, meaningful to see that at that point. All right.

Let's talk a little bit about the new scenes. And we'll start at the beginning with the 1983 scene with Joel, Tommy, and their father. Now, in the game, we see nothing earlier than the night of the outbreak. And the show has played around with that a bit more and has broken those chronological boundaries in the show in season one. We got the talk show talking about the possibility of an outbreak and then more information about the beginning of the outbreak. Here, we also get a scene before the outbreak, decades before the outbreak, where we find out that Joel's dad, who pretext. perhaps has his name, has his initial, at least, is a cop and also is prone to laying his hands on his boys. And we see that the pattern of Joel defending his loved ones was set early on that he was standing up for Tommy protecting Tommy from physical abuse, potentially.

What did you think? Did this deepen our understanding of Joel's character or his relationship with Ellie? was this additive for you? I was conflicted about this. I think going back to what you were saying, too, with just having somebody like Tony Dalton come in here. Yes, exactly. I don't really even mind anything else.

It was just awesome to see Tony Dalton in this show. And like this streak of them bringing in these big actors for these just even really small parts, even if it's just a scene like that is so fun. Like whether it's the season one, Bill and Frank episode or having Joey Pants come in at the end of this episode too. It is always really fun to see that kind of thing and like the performance alone helps really carry that scene. But in terms of our understanding of Joel,

I think it's another thing where we really knew these things already. They've really tried to make that idea of him being a protector very, very pronounced. But I guess at the same time, you get to see at least the root of his violence if he's being abused at home and like why this is him just perpetuating that in terms of this cycle. Yeah.

And I do like the little detail of the origins of the watch. So I don't know. I'm neither here nor there in the scene. How did you feel about it? Yeah, it does explain that difference with the watch in the show. Sarah pays to have it repaired for him, whereas in the game she buys it for him, which I guess shows how far ahead people plan when they're making a show like this, if they had the scene in mind, if that wasn't just something they built in at the time.

And then they realized, oh, we could have it be Joel's dad's watch here, because sometimes it's kind of a happy accident that you stumble on after the fact. But I'm very much with you. It's just it's hard for me to turn down Lalo Sahumaka in a scene. And so I like just seeing Tony Dalton wherever he shows up. And especially if he's not just the swordsman being bullied by Kingpin, if he has some more to work with here, like hard for me to turn that down. And he manages to convey the emotion to, of course, in a very macho way.

But it also is something that I just never wondered about. I was never like, why is Joel so protective? Yeah. Why does he have this impulse? I mean, he's the older brother, and he had a daughter, and he couldn't protect her. And now he's trying not to repeat that mistake with Ellie. That's sufficient for me. I don't necessarily need it to be just something that was destined to happen

because he was born into this home and raised by this abusive dad who was. wasn't quite as abusive as his dad was. It does obviously support the cycle of violence theme, and it shows that the cycle goes back even further than just Joel and Ellie. It's sins of the father and it's generations. And so I guess that makes that even more resonant. And also then perhaps allows for the possibility of hope and growth and progress, which you want some optimism in a dark.

game or show like this and you do want to sort of seed that idea that at the end of all of this Ellie will walk away and will maybe do a little bit better. I guess arguable whether she does better than Joel, but she does back away from the brink from the precipice at the end. So it felt a little like gilding the lily to me like a little more than we necessarily needed here. Again, it's just sort of, it's always the risk with a flashback scene because you're flashing back to a single scene. And so that single scene has to represent exactly whatever you want the takeaway to be. And so it ends up being a bit pat and self-contained. It's like here's a single interaction that sums up why Joel is the way he was and always has been and always will be. Right. And so it's a lot to lay on one scene. But Tony Dalton's up to the task, I guess. So yeah. It's like very similar to the Isaac flashback. Right, exactly. That we got earlier in the season two where it's just like, it is a flashback where you get to see this amazing actor just perform.

So it's fun in that sense. But it is, again, like very, very neat, very tidy way to show exactly like who this character is. Yeah. So now we get a not so neat and tidy scene in the bedroom of Ellie in Joel's house with Kat. And we get the origin story of how Ellie ended up in the garage. And we also get, in addition to Joel's character here, which is a touch of homophobia in our guy, which was not really present in the game or in the show up to this point. He does not just react the way that perhaps many parents would walking in on their teenage kid, who is, as Joel said, kind of combining all of the teenage rebellion slash experimentation into a single episode. but also he is actually disapproving of Ellie being with a girl in this scene.

Druckman talked about this too. He told Variety, it started with the conversation in the game, which was Joel is oblivious and mistakes Ellie's friendship with Jesse for something more. And that's in the show too. And I think that's charming and that's relatable. He continues, we really wanted to keep that here and then take it a step further. He finds out Ellie is gay in the game when she's. she kisses Dina on the dance floor. Here, it felt like there's an opportunity to show more of Ellie's evolution of becoming a teenager in Jackson and for that misunderstanding to create more

of a rift between them, but also show evolution, forgiveness, movement. You could see how much Joel is trying. So they do seem to really big on redeeming bigotry in this season, whether it's a more pronounced virulent example in Seth, or just a light touch of the homophobia here from Joel just reflexively and then maybe moves beyond that. And maybe that's why he reacts so strongly at the dance in the show, more so than in the game where there's a shove, but here he's actually taking Seth to the ground. Maybe it's because he's trying to make up for his initial reaction. And he sees some of Seth in himself. And so he lashes out. a little bit. Also, just kind of doing our guy, Joel, a little dirty here, just adding this

element to his character that wasn't present before. So your reaction? I think that's a good point with him seeing himself in Seth. I didn't really think about that. But I think another thing that just makes sense in terms of the timeline, too, is the fact that they did push this up a little bit earlier. So it's like, you know, the world ended in 2003. And we are getting a little bit of just seeing the kind of background that Joel is coming from. It seems like Tony Dalton This is a very old school kind of guy. And so I think part of this makes sense. And I do think it makes that a lot more powerful when later on you have that moment on the porch where you do see how much he has evolved.

And I think that's one thing that I have appreciated with seeing the show version of Joel and how much time we actually had with him in just like episode one. And where we really get to see this glimpse of how much he really has grown as a person. and how much he has been healing with this life with with Ellie. Regardless of their own relationship issues, he has changed in a way that he's, you know, an uncle again. He's his father figure to not just Ellie, but to Dina as well. And I think it makes his loss and his demise hit harder in that sense. Yeah.

And in some respects, I think the show has softened Joel. And maybe that's just the presence of Pedro Pascal and just his charisma. just making it hard not to like him. But maybe this is a way to counterbalance that a bit by giving him this aspect that he didn't have or at least wasn't made explicit in the game. So I see what you're saying. Another change here that we get in a combination of flashbacks in Joel, very impressively refurbishing this guitar. I'm very jealous of his handiness around the house. just being able to be a construction guy, build houses,

built guitars, he can do it all. But what we learn here, I guess it doesn't explicitly contradict the game. Maybe it just reframes our understanding what happened in the game. But the implication in the game, at least, was that the moth imagery was sort of a tribute to Joel, right? And what we learn here is that the guitar design and the tattoo actually come from Ellie's drawings.

It's not the other way. around. Now, we also get another example of something that is sort of subtext being made text and being made very explicit, which is that the game doesn't go out of its way to explain what the moth means, whereas we get this, again, just sort of extraneous scene, I would say, kind of funny, but also not entirely necessary, where Joel just accosts Gale at the diner. While she's reading Earth Abides, by the way, a favorite book of mine, highly recommend it, but he just barges in to ask her what moths mean and she said it means death very very spelled out again but i kind of like actually that joel is taking the meaning from ellie's art and that it's not

that ellie is doing this as a tribute to joel yeah i think they just did a really nice job of conveying this episode their their relationship but also just how thoughtful joel is as as a parent and how much he really is trying to see Ellie for who she is and really try to get on her level, which is why it's tough when he can't see this part of her identity. It's so crucial to her when it comes to her sexuality, but why it's more impactful than that he actually makes that step in trying to understand her and actually evolving and getting to that point.

All right. Let's talk about the big last flashback here, the Eugene scene. This is obviously created just about out of whole cloth here for the show. In the game, Eugene isn't seen. He's only mentioned. He dies of a stroke at 73. He's one of the few characters to actually die of natural causes, but he is not afforded that grace in the show.

In the game, he is a loner. He's not a married man. He actually left his wife and daughter to join the fireflies. So a lot of the Eugene backstory and his prominence. changes here and his death scene. So Druckman 2 Variety, we wanted this episode for Ellie to find out definitively that Joel lied in the game. We did it in a very different way where she traveled all the way back to the hospital and found documentation. That's what we just talked about. It felt like we would be stretching the reality of the world and how dangerous it is on the show compared to the game.

That's interesting to me because it feels to me like the world seems more dangerous in the game than it does in the show. Is that your sense? And maybe that's just because in the game we play. And so we feel that more intensely. And I guess they've kind of corrected that in season two, where in season one, there just wasn't a heavy infected presence, whereas now they've kind of course corrected on that.

But early on, at least, this world felt safer to me than it was in the game. But maybe that's just the personal experience that we have of occupying this world in a sense in the game. Yeah, I think that's just the nature of the game. I mean, you have to go through all these different, like, you fight so many bloaters and all these, like, stalker situations where I'm just, like, sweating there, trying to get through. So you really feel the dangers. I mean, you could also be playing on the easy mode where you got to just relax the story. I don't know. That's true. Yeah, and Druckman continued. Also, looking at documents and exploring that space, I don't know if that makes as compelling a drama for a TV show. So that's also explaining why they made this change. The audio log route, perhaps not as scintillard. on TV. The engine for the show is a little different than the engine for an interactive experience, so that ultimately led to the whole Eugene sequence. More, Druckman, it just didn't feel right for a long time talking about this scene until we landed on him, Joel, lying to her, Ellie, about

killing Eugene. And then everything just fell into place as far as like, oh, this is how she'll know. It felt like such a dramatic way for her to figure things out. So I did. I did. like a lot of aspects of this scene. I liked Eugene's body being pulled behind the horse, the way that Joel's body will be a little foreshadowing there. I liked Ellie saying, you swore to Joel, which we know is a reference to the scene from the end of season one, not to the promise that he made in the Eugene scene. But this does speak to what we were just saying about things being neat and tidy and spelled out in the sense that essentially history repeats itself very explicitly here. And Joel makes a promise and then he breaks that promise when Ellie is not there and now looking at

him doing that, seeing how he reacts, seeing how he lies to Gail for her protection, but lies nonetheless and to hopefully make her feel better, Ellie sees, oh, he's quite capable of this and all of my suspicions have been realized. So did you find this to be an effective reveal? I think it's another thing we've been talking about where it is just a little bit tough because it is so deliberately serving even in the way that Druckman's talking about it it's serving this narrative function

of revealing something else that's not necessarily directly about this scene or these characters. I think that's like the main problem that I've had with like Gail as a character throughout the season where Gail really is just here to be a reflection of Joel and Ellie and there isn't really like any

I don't remember if we've talked about this before but it's like this whole Bechtel test with Gail's character where it's like she's either talking about Joel or she's talking about Ellie or she's talking to the two of them and there's like never she's never talking about anything else. Yeah. Even if it's something with Tommy, it's about their dynamic and stuff like that. And this feels like an extension of that.

But at the same time, it's like it's just fun seeing Joey Pants in the show too. Yeah. The scenery that they have as all of this is happening is stunning as well. So it's like from a purely entertainment standpoint, I enjoy it. But when it comes down to the narrative level of it, it didn't. add too much to me. Yeah. You know, we were talking in previous episodes about how Andor was a tough basis for comparison to overlap with Andor, which is now over, sadly, but not having that to hold up against the Last of Us every week can probably only benefit the Last of Us. Another thing that

could benefit the last of us, this is sort of the opposite of that. I am currently watching the Walking Dead Dead City season two because I have a problem. Someone please help me. This is a cry for help. If you looked up sunk cost in the dictionary, it would just show me watching the Walking Dead spin-offs in 2025. But watching another zombie show and The Last of Us season two at the same time, that does help. That does make The Last of Us look a lot better because all the on location and the acting and the writing and the production especially, the budget, the money that's on the screen here, just a world of difference. And it has been nice in these recent episodes, a lot of which were filmed in and around Vancouver, like the seraphite scene last week was in Stanley Park. And I consider

myself sort of an honorary Vancouverite because my dad lived there for a long time. And I spent a ton of time there when I was a kid and I'm a dual citizen. And so that's kind of, I don't know if I'd say home away from home, but probably my second favorite city in the world or the one where I've spent the most time. And so it's been a treat to see Vancouver and its environs show up here. And just generally, the on-location, dead city is supposed to be in New York. And it is just not, mostly. And it is very apparent to be a New Yorker or frankly, to anyone, that it is not. Whereas here, when we're in the Pacific Northwest, we're in the Pacific Northwest. And that really does help. So it's nice to get outside the city and to see some scenery, even if it's as you're about to get, you

know, lenied of mice and men, essentially. Like, nice that there was some scenery here. Now, as we have talked about, a lot of the moral dilemmas in The Last of Us, both game and show, are kind of contrived when you think about them. And this one, you could say the same. Why doesn't Eugene just radio gale, right? Why don't they get the walkie-talkie? Why doesn't, I know he wants to see her face, but how about a compromise?

You can talk to her because he does say, I just want to hear what she wants. would say, why not propose that, right? Even if the Waki-Tocky's back with the horses or something, there's enough time, right? And a lot of people have said, he won't turn that fast. Now, I get that Joel, he's the new guy in the community sort of still at this point, and he's abiding by the rules. I think that part works maybe just because Joel will do anything to protect Ellie. And if anything, this reinforces that. Like, I don't know how much danger they or the community of Jackson are really in from undead Joey pants, right? Like, I feel like they could handle him.

They could tie him up. They could gag him. They could do whatever they need to do. But it speaks to Joel just not considering in anyone else's needs or life even when it comes to Ellie. He's not taking any chances. And did he have to do this? Did he have to lie to her?

Probably not, really, right? But it's like all other considerations just fly out of his. head where Ellie's safety is concerned. He doesn't want to take any chances because of what he has seen happened to his biological daughter. So that much works for me. And yeah, just getting Joey Pantaliano in this scene, that works for me enough. But it also did feel like, don't know if we need this because it's already eating at her. And we've seen that. And so explicitly, speaking out loud the questions that she has in her head for Joel. It's another example of the show laying it on a little thick, right?

Not really leaving anything to the imagination. Yeah, I mean, I think that's part of the thing that's a little bit tricky too with just the fact that this is the first time we're seeing this character on screen. We have heard about him, obviously, but it doesn't really create that much of suspense on the emotional level, too, because we just don't know anything about this guy. And like, even with Gail, it's like, at least. me personally. I have no attachment because we've only really seen Gail in these really small doses. So it's like when you put all these things together, when it comes to, you know,

all of the little plot holes that you could be poking in it like you were saying, it's just like so deliberate that this is here to serve this narrative function of like, all right, this is Ellie figuring out what, what's, what Joe, that Joel has lied to her. Yeah. Okay. Let's look forward a little here. Is this a series wrap on Pedro Pescal? Now, Variety described it as his final full episode. Pascal requested that Druckman direct this because it was kind of his swan song. That doesn't preclude him potentially coming back in some form.

Maybe he shows up for a scene. Maybe it's just a flashback to a flashback that we've already seen. But if this is essentially the fond farewell to this character, can the show hold onto its audience's emotions without him, without that ongoing illegal dynamic, what is there to hold people's attention, to create suspense, to wonder about other than how far Ellie will go, ultimately, because we know at this point as a show viewer,

why exactly Abby did what she did and why Ellie is doing what she did, there isn't that same mystery that propelled you as a player, plus just the desire to continue playing the game, which propelled you forward. So without that, if this is the final, kiss off to Joel, do you think that people who got into the show for Joel and Ellie will find enough to keep coming back and to find this show as rewarding as they have up until this point? I certainly hope so. This is one of those things where it's so tough for me to tell just because

of our attachment to the property. It's like, I still think, I mean, just knowing where it goes to the Abbey part of this game, the storyline is fantastic. Like, I'm really looking forward. to season three and where it's going to go. And I think that Caitlin Dever is very exciting to be seeing the way that she becomes the star of the show, essentially, moving forward. So at least I am very personally, looking forward to where it's going to go,

but I can see why people would be a little bit turned off, knowing that this is it for Joel, and especially because we don't, again, we don't even know if he's going to come back. I certainly do hope so. and seeing that that making of segment that you were talking about, like seeing Pedro Pascal say goodbye to everybody. Like that's where it hit me.

I was like, oh, shit. This is like, this is really goodbye. And it was like, I was like a little emotion. I was like, man, this is like the end of this era. And it's tough. I wish they had been able to extend it a little bit more, maybe somehow. Yeah. And so we'll see if the show can stand on its own without Joel.

It's a tall order because this did really scratch that itch that a lot of people have had for Joel and for Joel and Ellie, but also with the knowledge of the finality of this, that, man, they're not rationing the remaining Joel flashbacks. This is it. So we got the sugar rush essentially of seeing lots and lots of Joel of having a whole Joel episode, but the downside of that is that that means that may be it. And so you've kind of got to come to terms with that and we'll see if the show can deliver enough without him. And this show is going to be going on for quite a while without him seemingly because Craig Mason just did an interview with Collider. Now, this is not a complete shock, but this was maybe the more most explicit confirmation of

it that we've heard this far. Mason said, I think there's a decent chance that season three will be longer than season two, good, just because the manner of that narrative and the opportunities it affords us are a little different. The thing about Joel's death is that it's so impactful, it's such a narrative nuclear bomb that it's hard to wonder away from it. We can't really take a break and move off to the side and do a Bill and Frank story, I'm not sure that will necessarily be true for season three. I think we'll have a little more room there, but certainly there's no way to complete this narrative in a third season.

Hopefully we'll earn our keep enough to come back and finish it in a fourth. That's the most likely outcome. So this is pretty explicit confirmation that they have mapped this out to take for full seasons. So how do you see those seasons being structured and does that seem necessary? to you. I think it's definitely necessary because there is so much that is so to come in terms of Abby and then

switching back to Ellie and Dina again coming back to that farm life but then also just Ellie going off to them. Even if this third season is a couple of episodes longer, there's just so much that they would have to cover and they

again like I mean as Mason is alluding to they do like to wander away from the main part of the story, take breaks and do some things on the side. And I think, you know, that Bill and Frank story was one of the best episodes of the season and one of the best episodes of the series so far. And there's just so much room for them to do these things and expand on parts of the game. Like, especially like when it comes down to what would likely be a season four, there's so much that they could still show of just California.

Yeah, Santa Barbara, Catalina, that whole chapter. Yeah. Right. There's so much they could do there. There's even the potential. really aren't going to do another Last of Us game, they could go forward in ways that we didn't even imagine as game players. I don't know that that would surely divide a lot of people as well,

but they can do that. About that, also this week, Neil Druckman revealed that Noddy Dog is working on a second unannounced game. Obviously, a lot of people's minds went to, Is This the Last of Us Part 3? Are they trying to string us along with the TV? There's more time. There's more material.

It is. Yeah. Now, he also said that he's working in more of an oversight producer role in that game, as opposed to Intergalactic, the other game where he's taking more of a hands-on directing writing role. And he might say that makes it less likely that Druckman would be hands off with a third part of a Last of Us trilogy. I would respect that if he were. If he said, hey, this is the story that I wanted to tell in The Last of Us and now there's someone else who wants to carry this forward. And he was on in more of a supervisor. role. I'd like that, actually. But I don't know that that is how this would be revealed, just this little tidbit. I mean, studios are often working on other things or prototyping other things, and this is certainly far from confirmation that there's a Last of Us sequel in the works, but it adds a little more fuel to the fire. And I understand the need for a fourth season, though, yes, it does mean that you're waiting even longer. This is why they front-loaded certain aspects of the story in this season, because the delay would be so protracted.

And it also means that since we kind of know where this is headed, I mean, even people who haven't played the game are getting the sense at this point, okay, this is heading for an L.E. Abbey Showdown, you are asking people to wait an entire two seasons and who knows how many years for that payoff to happen. And I could imagine some sentiment of they're spinning their wheels. This isn't progressing fast enough. We all know the destination here.

let's get there. So I could imagine that that will be an impediment to future seasons. But that is a problem for another day and perhaps we will consider

that next episode as well. Briefly, our thoughts on the sneak peek at the finale here the next time on, we have speculated that there will be a return of Abby here.

We don't see her in this sneak preview, nor do we see Tommy. But we do see Jesse running towards something. I wonder what he might be running towards, probably something innocent and not painful and terrible for him at all. But, yeah, seeing that, you know, if you had any hopes that Jesse was going to avoid his fate in the game, it's looking unlikely.

Not that it was ever looking particularly likely. Oh, so it's so brutal. That's got to be the most brutal next on. They knew exactly what they were doing, so showing that shot, them getting ready for the run. Oh, man. I am not emotionally prepared to see. I will say I wish we had seen more of Jesse. And at least we do see on the next time on. It seems like they are combining a little bit more of that whole Jesse L.A. excursion

to, I guess, make that emotional impact of his death hit a little bit harder because he's been kind of on the sidelines a lot. But yeah, man, I'm not looking forward to that moment. Yeah. In the game, his death is so unceremonious. And it's merciful in a sense because he doesn't see it coming. He just, he burst through that door and Abby just one-shots him just through the cheekbone, essentially, and that's that. So there's no torture.

There's no protracted death. He doesn't turn any of that. I do wonder whether they'll give him a little more of a send-off, whether there will be more of a standoff here or not. I would bet on something about that final confrontation being tweet a bit. in the show. But do you think that it will end with that scene, essentially, that maybe Tommy and Jesse have talked Ellie reluctantly into going back to Jackson, and then suddenly Abby shows up,

and that's where we end with a bit of a cliffhanger? Or do you see something else potentially happening? I think even just when I was playing The Last of Us Part 2, there's just that one line and that one moment where Abby's like, you know, we gave you a chance and you've wasted it. Yeah. It is such a clean place to break. I mean, it's the way the game did it itself.

You know, it seems like such a perfect season break. I don't know how that would be for like TV first people where it would be like, oh my God, now I got to wait two years after this. So that might be tough, but I think that's probably where I see it coming. In terms of Jesse's death, I really am curious because that moment it was so much more brutal in the game because of how quick it is. And I really just appreciated the parallels and how quick. quick that is with how quick Manny's death is when when Joel eventually shoots him because it's

like the same exact thing where it's just like, you know, you're with this person for a good amount of time and then just suddenly they're gone. Yeah. I do wonder whether they'll change that conversation with Tommy where he's essentially saying and Jesse is saying we've done enough and Ellie reluctantly accepts okay Abby's going to live but at least they've paid a price to speak of prices and there hasn't been as steep a price in the show. She killed Nora, but hasn't really been executing the whole crew the way that Game Ellie did by that point. So I wonder whether that will stay intact or whether we'll see a change there.

I wanted to read a quick email that we got from listener Caitlin, not Deaver, but this was sent to Ringiverse Gaming at gmail.com. As someone who loves the game series and has played part two since release day, it's nice to have the gamer perspective to this adaptation. I've agreed with a lot of the notes you've had on this season so far. However, the thing that's getting to me as the series goes on is the lack of excitement I have for season two. I knew that there would have to be changes and I was anxious to see how they would do it. I thought they did a phenomenal job with the first season and giving us the same nuances of the first game story while adding to that world.

I loved it. I don't have the same enthusiasm for this season. In the first season, all of the additions felt like true additions to the original source material. With this season, most of the additions feel like subtractions. some I have thoroughly enjoyed, like the attack on Jackson, but the biggest sticking point for me is the overall changes to Ellie's character arc. For me, as a player, the draw of the story was watching Ellie's revenge become more important to her than anything else in her life. She started out with small choices that puts others in danger or push them away until it became apparent that all she cared about was revenge, just like Abby.

After all, the point of the story was for them to mirror each other. However, I'm not feeling that same underlying need for revenge in this that would lead to that, overwhelming loss at the end. Yes, she snapped with Nora, just as Joel snapped in other situations, but it felt more abrupt, which just felt more impulsive to me instead of having built up in a way the viewer could recognize. And I think we were feeling some of that too, and we were talking about how Ellie's just not as consistently angry in the show. And there's a bit of a tonal whiplash that comes from some of the lovey-dovey stuff, just being interspersed with the occasional rage. and until the Nora scene, Ellie doesn't really snap to the same extent.

And we talked about the different reactions to the pregnancy reveal, et cetera. So since I felt some of that, too, I would like to see angry Ellie coming out of these flashbacks. Because the whole purpose of these flashbacks or one of them was to make us understand and feel some of what she's feeling and the loss that she felt here. And Joel being taken away from her right after they had this double breakthrough in the show. show universe and not being able to then play that out and fully have a resolution with that character. I want her to be mad here, the way that she was mad coming out of playing some bars of future days and remembering what was lost in that moment maybe with Joel.

That's what I'd like to see here. That maybe makes it more difficult if then she is persuaded to leave if that happens again. But yeah, give me mad, angry, homicidal, murderous Ellie, at least for a little while in this finale. Yeah, yeah. I mean, Caitlin's email definitely resonated with me on a lot of levels. And I think especially after seeing this last episode and just a different path that it's really taking in terms of the delivery of the information that we're getting in Ellie's whole emotional arc and her dynamic with Joel. And I think that's again, coming back to the limitations of the TV medium. I think it's one of the things with pacing and just the nature of having a seven-episode season

where one episode is entirely flashback. So I am curious to see if we do get to see some of Ellie in the next season. Or, I mean, we can talk about this next week as well because we'll have a better sense. Because, I mean, in this episode, it seems like a lot is coming. Like, we have that one shot of her on the boat. Like, we're going to get the whole aquarium. confrontation with Mel and Owen. So I think we will be seeing exactly what you want to see, Ben,

in terms of Ancrielli coming. Yes. Well, that didn't suck. Daniel, thanks as always for joining me. Thank you, Ben. Programming teases for what's coming up on the Ringerverse feed. We have a murder bot check-in on Mint Edition coming on Friday, the first three episodes of that Apple TV Plus show.

And then the Midnight Boys, p-poo-poo! We'll have their Last of Us. finale instant reactions on Sunday night. They will then be back midweek next week for their Mission Impossible final reckoning, reckoning. And then we will be back the day after that with our reaction to the Last of Us, season two, episode seven, followed by Ringiverse recommends at the end of next week. Wow, it's the end of May already.

Time flies, as it did in this episode. Also on House of Our Last of Us Deep dive coming as usual on Monday from Mal and Joe, followed by a Last of Us and Spring mailbag later in the week. All right, as promised, let's wrap up with a short interview. We talked about actors not actually playing guitar on the show. Well, they didn't actually play guitar in the game either. Chris Rondinella did. He's the one who accompanied Troy Baker and Ashley Johnson

when they sang future days and take on me. His guitar playing was what you heard and also what you saw because he was motion captured. And our guest last week, Almodena and her animation team probably ported that into the game. So now let's give him the mic. Here's Chris's cue. All right, I am joined now by Chris Rondanella, who, in a sense, is the only person to have played

both Ellie and Joel and also to have played with them. He was the guy playing guitar underneath future days when Troy Baker performed it, underneath Take on Me, when Ashley Johnson performed it, in other songs that were featured in The Last of Us, in the game itself, in trailers, over credits, etc. And now he's getting his due. Hey, Chris, how are you? I'm doing well. How much yourself?

Doing well also. Is this the first time that you have talked about this publicly? Is this a button mesh exclusive? Yeah, I guess it would be. All right. How about that? Well, you have, of course, gotten credit on the soundtrack. There was a Last of Us Part Two covers and Rarities collection that was released back in

2021. But I am eager to hear the story. of how you became the fingers, the hands of both Joel and Ellie. So how did you get connected to The Last of Us? That would have started on the trailer announcement for the second game to director, Ed Neil. I guess he might have heard some old recordings that Ash and I did back in the day and liked them.

And so it kind of stemmed out of that. So I was invited to work on the trailer and then that kind of moved into the game. How did you know Ashley? I've kind of known her. I've been friends with her for ages. So we've made music together in the past, and we've planned to do so in the future as well. So you and she played through the Valley, which was featured in the teaser for the first game. And then also on this season of the HBO show, I think, in a blend of a new performance and an old performance.

So that was the first one? I believe so. I mean, this was all a while back, but I believe that was the first one. And that went well. And so they said, hey, we have some other. songs that are going to be featured in this game. Could you play on those two? Yeah. Yeah, I thought it was really cool that that was a, you know, a component to the game. And what instructions were you given, if any, about how to play these songs?

You know, it's a couple of things going on because it's, there's the musical performance, you know, but then it's also in a way kind of acting as well, you know, so you're trying to play it in a way that it's believable to the character. So it's not so much like just laying down a guitar take or something or making something sound musical. You're also kind of interpreting it through the different characters. Yeah. You know, and some of it's hidden the mark following the actors and stuff like that. That's a fun challenge. So you're saying you're a better guitarist than Joel and Ellie probably.

You had to... Not by much. Not by much. What is your musical background? I've been for the past 20 years or so with... songwriter and producer, and then I run a studio in Burbank called Heritage Recording Co. And is that where you made the recordings for the game? No, we did them. They were all live. We did some demos beforehand at my place.

And then I think once it went into lockdown, I did a couple extra things remotely from my place as well during COVID. But for the most part, everything in the game was all done live. Oh, okay. So yeah, so you were working on some things. things right up until release potentially because I guess the game came out mid-2020, not that far into the pandemic. So you were still maybe working on some things up to the last second. I think, yeah, they were making edits up to, you know, the twilight hour of the release. And so we did some music stuff at the very last minute. And what were you told about the game or about these characters who, as you said, you were

kind of playing, you were acting out these parts in addition to just playing. guitar. So what did you need to know about who these people were or what scenes these songs would be featured in? I didn't really know a whole lot, to be honest, about the backstory or, you know, obviously there's a lot of violence in the game. So you wanted to put a little bit of that in there as well. But then there's some delicate moments. So it was more about like embracing the moment or the mood of the scene, really. That makes sense. So did you know, for instance that when you're playing take on me that this is a big momentous love scene and Ellie is playing it to Dina and kind of singing it to her and confessing her feelings sort of. Is that something that can go into a

rendition of a song? I didn't really know how momentous it was. I mean, I knew that, you know, some of the context of it, but I was, you know, it was a cool surprise to see how it took off. You know, it struck a chord with people. No pun intended. And I guess it's, you know, it's a nice, Yeah, it's a nice moment when you're getting bashed in the head by zombies and stuff to have a little break from that, you know. Yeah, exactly. So you recorded five songs, Future Days and Tick on Me and Through the Valley and True Faith and also Wayfaring Stranger, which Ashley and Troy performed as a duet in the credits. Were there parts that were recorded separately and then blended together? Or as you said, it was mostly just you all in a room doing it live?

Yeah, Wayfaring Stranger, I don't really remember that much, to be honest. The other ones, you know, I think it's interesting to mention is that we would have to do the whole scene before the song and after the song. So they were like top-down kind of performances, which was pretty interesting, I thought. So we didn't just do the musical bits, you know. But the dialogue, too? Yeah. Oh, interesting. And how were you actually recorded, then your motions were captured as well, right?

Yeah, I had like sensors on my hands and stuff like that. Was it on your individual fingers? Yeah, yeah, and a glove. So that added a bit of a challenge to play with that, but that also helped give the kind of novice element to it. Yeah, makes you sound worse at guitar than you are because your hands are obstructed, sort of. What were you recording on? What guitar were you using? Do you recall? Well, I have a lot of old, like, kind of vintage guitar, so we kind of brought those in,

and we were kind of looking for something that had an older sound and not something super polished or new. So it's an old Martin, 0021, from the 60s. So you didn't have to age it up and make it moldy as if it had been sitting in a post-apocalyptic place for, decades. It was just an antique sort of already. Came out of the box that way, yeah. And is this an instrument that you used on your own recordings that you play with regularly? It's just your personal guitar? Yeah, yeah, I use it a lot. I have a lot of old gun and toys. So they work perfect for the game.

Do you remember whether you played with Troy any differently than you played with Ashley in terms of just the playing style? because Ellie learned from Joel, so I guess it would make sense that she would play similarly, but she's even less experienced than Joel in terms of how long she's been playing. So I don't know whether you distinguished between those characters as you were playing

or whether you were just going for sort of an unpolished amateur feel for both of them. I didn't really try to overcomplicate anything. There's really so many moving pieces to it, you know, And you're playing in front of 20-something people on computers and in a big white room that kind of feels like a doctor's office. And there's no acoustics.

And it's kind of you got stuff on your hands. So, you know, I'm just trying to not mess up, to be honest. Right. Not ruin the whole production. You know, that's really what, to be honest, what's going through my mind. And you had no aspirations to parlay this into a career where you're, playing guitar in many other video games, posing as many other characters. Yeah, I guess that I could be that guy.

Yeah, sure. When you're playing as they're singing, are you following their lead, sort of? Or are you sort of setting the tone, so to speak, and they're following your pace? Are you trying to conform to their vocal performances or the other way around? Probably a bit of both, you know, just trying to get on the same page. try to fill it out, you know, respond to the situation. You're an Americana artist and maybe a blend of genres, but are these songs that would be part of your rotation,

or are you not usually playing aha covers or Pearl Jam covers? I know Wayfaring Stranger. I wasn't familiar if any others. Actually, no take on me I knew, but I thought it was cool to hear in a different light. Yeah, were you responsible not only for playing that song, but for arranging it for acoustic guitar? I mean, we kind of had a, I think it was kind of a broad idea.

And then I think, like I said, we demoed them at my place. And then I guess the people involved liked them. And so that kind of gave us a thing to build off. And do you remember there being many takes or were these fairly fast sessions? I mean, that was one of the good things about Neil is he's, he's like very decisive.

So he doesn't belabor an idea. So I think some of those. performances may have been three takes or so. And I guess you don't want it to sound perfect or pristine if it's a little loose of something slightly off. Maybe that makes it seem more real and naturalistic. Yeah, I think, you know, once he got what he got, we moved on, you know. You're not a gamer yourself, right?

How did you first see the scenes? Or how did you get a sense of the fact that some of these songs were really resonating with people and meant a lot to players? I had friends tell me about it. You know, like, you played guitar on that thing? Like, do you know how big of a thing that was? Like, and I'm like, I didn't know. And then I thought it was cool that, you know, for one of my guitars to kind of be like

immortalized like that in a game. Because I guess you play, you can play that guitar in the game, right? Yeah, you can sort of strum along. Yeah, I thought that was really cool. And you haven't seen the show yet, right? But these are new performances, but they memorialize. what you all did in the game very faithfully. So it was clear that that was an important part of the game that they felt they needed

to preserve for the series. Yeah. It gives an importance to the music in the game. So it was very cool, very flattering. How do you feel about the fact that the most heard recording you have made? And you have a solo album, which I was listening to and quite enjoying. and you worked with Jim Keltner, the legendary drummer, guy who's played with absolutely everyone who's anyone in music.

And you've done your own work and you've recorded plenty of other work at your studio. But this has really resonated, something that you probably had no idea. It would be as big as it is. But this is, I guess, the music you've made that has probably been heard by the most people. Yeah, I mean, I guess anytime you can strike a chord, it's great. It's cool. I'm honored to be a part of it. This was quite a fun little side road. Yeah, I would say so. Do you think you're ever going to play it or is watching it or hearing about it enough for you? The game, I actually started playing it and then I'm not a great gamer. So I got to a part that I couldn't beat and kind of just got frustrated with it.

So I left it there. But I'll get to it at some point. Yeah, you're not the only one who's had that experience, I'm sure. That's when you've got to turn the difficulty level down because I just want to get to my scene. I want to hear myself play. Do you think people realize, like, I guess, you know, you haven't been bombarded with interview requests until I showed up in your inbox here. So do people not even realize that this was someone else playing guitar? Do they just think of it as Troy or Ashley or just it's Joel and Ellie to? to me.

I mean, you know, I, in a way, I would hope that would be the case. I mean, I have such an insignificant role in this thing that's really about them and the story and the game, you know. If I did my job right, then they wouldn't think that there was somebody else involved. I guess that's exactly what a good actor wants to do, just disappear into the role. So no one's thinking it's them. They're just thinking about the character. I guess you accomplished that.

Yeah, I guess so. I'm glad I could talk to you about this because you played a part literally in some of the most meaningful moments in video game history. That's probably not too much of an exaggeration. So glad I could talk to you a little bit about the way it went down. So thank you very much, Chris. All right, man. Thanks to Devin Rilnado for producing this episode and to our junior Bramgapal for his senior production. Thank you to all of you for listening and emailing us at ringerversegaming at gmail.com.

We'll be back next week with one more gamer guide, and until then, shimmer lives.