The Ringer-Verse - The ‘Mandalorian’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive | House of R

Episode Date: March 17, 2023

They love the red ones, and they also love Mando! Mal and Joanna return to do another deep dive into the latest episode of ‘The Mandalorian’ (08:11). Later they are joined by Ben Lindbergh to discuss the history and trajectory of cloning in the ‘Star Wars’ universe (02:02:60). Then they give out their episodic awards (02:31:12). Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Guests: Ben Lindbergh Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Are you experiencing any undue stress due to work or personal matters? No. Have you experienced any feelings of anger or resentment towards your coworkers? No. Have you experienced any feelings of anger or resentment towards the New Republic Government or its representatives? Apologies if you didn't hear me. Have you experienced any feelings of anger or resentment? No.

Thank you for continuing to... Our main objective. is to help the Republic, right? Correct. And that supersedes everything else? It does. Thank you for continuing to be an important part of the Amnesty program. Have a nice day.

And welcome into the Ringerverse here on the Ringer podcast network. I'm Mallory Rubin and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you, not only, back to Curisant, but also to join us on the Ringer's Nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. joining me today to tell me that she's scugged off a lot of imperial warlords. It's my favorite dogfight co-pilot and my house of our co-host Joanna Robinson. Mallory, my very own personal merch girl. What is the over-under on those glowy ice pops being available in Disneyland? Like, are they already there?

It's probably. Zero down. I think Vegas has taken it off the board. Okay. Let's put it that way. It's off the board. Okay. Can't wait to try one.

So we are here today, of course, to a deep dive into the third episode of the third season of the Mandalorian. I've got to be a lot. But before we hook into the mind flare, sorry, sorry, excuse me, the mitigator. It's going to be fine. It's going to be fine. It's totally fine. Some quick programming reminders on Monday. Right here on the Ring Reverse, it's time for Fury of the Mint Edition gods.

Because Jome and Steve will be potting about the new Shazam film. Then on Wednesday, the Midnight Boys. Poo-Poo-Poo! We'll have their instant reaction to the fourth episode of the third Mando season. I cannot believe we are already almost at the halfway point. Astonishing stuff. We will, of course, be back next Friday for our chapter 20 deep dive. But we wanted to let you know that we will also still be with you over on our sister feed,

the prestige TV podcast. You might be saying to yourself, wait a minute. I just heard you guys dive deep into the Last of Us finale. Isn't that show over? Sadly, it is. Still going on in our hearts and our souls. But yellow jackets. Buzz, buzz.

Buzz, baby. We will have a. where we left off, season one, refresher pod for you on Prestige at the top of next week. And then we will be diving into season two and we'll be with you all season long. We never leave Cannibalism Corner

on the prestige TV feed, Joe. That's okay. I'm so excited. All of that. It's a lot. Oh, my God. I'm so excited to get into yellow jackets with you. This is like a theory rich show.

Just, I mean, like, folks, if you're listening to this, the Ring of Verse feed and you did not watch season one of Yellow Jackets, I really recommend you watch it and catch with us for season two. It is a show that we're not sure if it's supernatural, and that's kind of a really fun aspect of it.

So, like, if you're a genre fan, it's really fun to watch Yellow Jackets through the genre lens and then have, like, a heated debate with someone about whether or not anything actually spooky is going on. We'll find out together. All right, so yeah, but your question was, I mean, follow the pods, right? Step one. Easy, peasy.

Follow the pods. At Ring Reverse. and prestige. We're also covering succession over prestige a lot going on, right? Follow us on the socials, right? Jomi doesn't make those memes for himself. It makes them for you.

So at Ringerverse on Twitter, on Instagram, on TikTok, and of course, as always, Peach. And then you can always email us Hobbits and dragons at gmail.com. We are still getting... Cannibals and cloners at gmail.com. We are still getting Apple takes. Like, dude, like, by the minute.

So, yeah, Hobbs and drags to Gmail.com, that feed is, that inbox is full. So send your Yellow Jackets theories there and send all of your Mando thoughts there and anything else you care to share with us. I think that that is it. It is. It takes us to our last programming reminder at the top of the pod, which is, Ye old friendly neighborhood spoiler warning, as always. Today's podcast will feature plot details from the episode of television that you're here to listen to us discuss.

Chapter 19, The Convert. It's also quite possible that plot points from programs such as Boba Fett, Clone Wars, Bad Batch, Rebels, and really anything else in the Star Wars canon, Rise of Skywalker, have ever heard of it, might come up today. So all of Star Wars is on the table. If it's in the canon, we can talk about it. If you don't want to hear any bad batch cloning notes proceed with more caution than Penn Pershing did when he began nibbling on imperial biscuits during snack time.

Where were things going to go from there, folks? Only one direction. All right. Season 3, episode 3, chapter 19, The Convert, directed by Lee Isaac Chung, written by Noah Clor and John Favreau. Limburg pointed out in his recap this week, which I did not know this until he drew attention.

to it. This is the only writer other than Favs and Faluny the entire season, at least as far as we know so far. This is also Joanna at a robust of 59 minutes on the old DP Disney Plus the longest episode of the Mandalorian

to date. Will this be the longest episode of House of Art to date? Who can say? Yeah, what do you think? Steve, buddy boy. This is an incredibly nervous laugh from you right there. I already know some things. Oh, I do, yeah, Noah Klor is a really interesting one because we've had a few other co-writers on, like Chris Yost,

co-wrote an episode of Mandelorri and stuff like that. But usually they're more established writers than Noah's. Noah's, like, the heaviest thing on Noah's CV is Book of Obavet, was a staff writer of Book of Boba Fed. So that's, like a really interesting crossover situation there. I don't know what's going on there, but I'm interested to find out. And then I do want to mention that Lee Isaac Chung, are the director, Oscar-nominated director of Minari, like an incredible film. An unbelievably beautiful movie.

I adore that movie. Stephen Yun in Star Wars When is my question. Like tomorrow? Dare to Dream. My goodness. Can they announce it a celebration please? Can you imagine Stephen Ian Jedi Master? I dare to dream.

Dare to dream. What a thrilling prospect. Yeah. Ooh. Okay. Well, while we dream about the future, let's also talk about the very recent past this episode of television.

It is time, Joe. For our opening snapshot. Welcome to the Port of Ringiverse, Jim. Now I'm just waiting for a bin at the end of every segment, sound cue, even though it only happens once. Bad baby. Bad baby. Oh, bad baby. Joe, overall impressions of chapter 19, the convert.

What did you think? We have a lot to talk about. And I'm very excited to talk about it all with you. But if I'm being honest with you, I think this is my least favorite episode of the The Mandalorian that has ever existed. Ever. Oh, wow. I think so.

Okay. Having completed my rewind, I can't think of an episode I liked less than this. That being said, not for the reasons that I think some people felt because I don't mind taking a detour from Dinn and Grogu. That's not the issue. I think the issue is, you know, and this is also in our list to talk about here, but, like, We were talking at the opening of the season about the Mandalorian, how are we going to enjoy the Mandalorian coming so fresh off of Vandor? Right.

And I made the case that this is just like, you know, your sugary Saturday morning cereal compared to like the robust musely or whatever it is that Andor was. And like that it's okay to enjoy both. And I felt I felt very strongly about that until the Mandalorian basically tried to do and or stuff and invite that comparison. And when you invite that comparison, then the contrast in quality of the dialogue, the setting all comes, comes, you know, into sharp relief. And so, like, I love Dr. Pershing. I think that's a really interesting character. I think this storyline is interesting. But I think it just looks like a much more juvenile version of something that we, you know,

gridly slurped up for several weeks at the end of last year, especially when it comes to that question of something we praised and or to the high heavens for was its production design. And that feeling that you were in a really real place when you were watching these various characters engage in political discussions, stuff like that. Watching Pershing and Ilya walk around Corrasson, you just really feel like they're walking in front of a green screen at almost any given time. And again, that just made me feel like I felt frustrated in a way that I don't feel frustrated when I'm watching Mando and Dinn and Bo do their thing, you know?

And so for me, I just felt that difference really sharply in this episode. And so, like, and also pacing-wise, because, like, we'll talk about this little arc of a fall. for Dr. Pershing, this honeytrop essentially that he's caught in. But I couldn't help but think about the way, you know, the, the comparison. And I know that there's people watching the show and listening to this who did not watch Andor because there's some, you know, facts and figures on the viewership number. And Mandalorian is much, much more popular than Andor, right? But I can't help but think of a character like Cyril Karn, a character we loved,

we were very compelled by in Andor when, you know, there are like direct visual comps between Pershing and his drone work, right, versus Cyril. And Cyril's arc is so slow, rolled out in such a slow, interesting, we're continuously slowly checking in on him. And so I was wondering if, like, this thing we see, this, you know, con job, a very obvious con job from Elia on Pershing, if maybe we got a little bite of it week to week, it would feel that dread, that inevitability.

Like all of the corner of the biscuit. Yeah, exactly. Rather than the whole box of cookies at once, you know. And so, yeah, does that, I mean, I know it makes sense. That's my opinion. But how did you feel about it? I'm trying to ask, does that make sense less? Because I think it's a sign of insecurity and an opinion.

But that's my opinion. What's your opinion? Yeah, I certainly would not say it's my favorite episode of The Mandalorian. I think that I won't know exactly how I feel about it ultimately until I see the entire season and possibly until we see Asoka and how much time we're spending on things like the path to the First Order and other connected aspects of this current stretch of the timeline. I was intrigued by what we were getting in the Pershing plot. I am genuinely interested in the rise of the First Order and the fall of the New Republic

and what went wrong and how. So glimpsing pieces of New Republic life and high society and those moments where you feel how little actually seems to have changed, I'm compelled by that. I think, of course, it was literally impossible not to think about and or watching it. It just wouldn't be honest to say otherwise, I think. I felt a couple ways about it. On the one hand, like I just said, I'm interested in exploring the governmental realities, political strife, the way that politics manifests or fails to manifest change in society.

And I'm interested in this show exploring it. I think that the stakes will feel higher ultimately if we're operating inside of that context. But I've just, I kept flashing back to all of the, like, late. stage and or conversations just across, you know, not only the Ringer podcast network, but the internet at large about, oh my God, like, this is just such a sublime thing, which I felt, too, we both thought Andor was absolutely astonishing. Wouldn't it be amazing if all of Star Wars was this? And I think, like, we talked about this at the time. There's a reason that not all Star Wars should try to be that.

And I felt that very keenly here. But again, I don't necessarily think that's, that should preclude Mando from playing in those corners of the sandbox. I think it's a balanced question. I, this is just like not going to surprise you to hear me say. It's true that I'm interested in other things. It's true that I'm interested in seeing these slices of the story. I am not too proud to say that I do not want to only be with Grogu for a handful of minutes in a 59 minute episode of The Mandalorian. I just missed him the entire time. And I think that that, that on the pacing point, in addition to what what you cited about the pacing and dispensation of the downloads of maybe this aspect of the story, I was thinking

about the pacing of the season overall in a different way after this episode in a way that I'm a little honestly like right now in real time a little confused by. And again, I reserve final judgment until the season as a whole unfolds. But I think after the first episode, I wasn't as perturbed by some of the boba overlap and repetitions as maybe some viewers because I felt just so delighted to be back in the world. And I understood that mileage was varying on that. I thought that the second episode was such a thrill in part because it was such a acceleration in a really surprising and thrilling way. We talked about this at length last week. Well, if we're getting in in the second episode of season three, a lot of the stuff that we thought we wouldn't see until the penultimate episode or the finale,

God, what awaits? Well, we still ultimately, at the end of a third episode now, have to wait to find out what happens with the Mythosur. We didn't actually, like, leave there on the back of the mythical beast. And that introduces a new element of intrigue, widened, Baudelden, what she saw, when will she act on this information, how? And so we get new mysteries that I find, again, compelling.

But I can't tell if the season wants to move quickly or slowly. And that's something that I guess we just will have to keep feeling out week after week. And again, when we learn maybe what the whole tapestry is, then we have a better feel for how the strands in this little strand cast fit together. Can I take you back to Joanna Robinson re-editing conspiracy corner? Sure. There's something about the chunky runtime of this episode that makes me think that like the bookends that we got of Bowen. and din were perhaps maybe

the original idea was just to have a Pershing episode, a complete start to finish Pershing episode. Because if you strip out the Den and Boe

stuff, that's closer to a regular runtime of a Mandalorian episode. We already know that the premiere was super short. So I'm wondering,

I'm wondering if all this shuffling was because they looked at the Pershing episode and they were like, we like this is a thought experiment,

but we're a little nervous to dish them up an episode that has no Dan and Grogo in it. So let's just like slot these bookends here. So it still feels like a Mando episode. And then we get this like, you know, chunky ice cream sandwich in the middle of like Pershing.

That's, the mystery continues as to why the premiere was so short, you know, what's going on. And I really feel like there's just been a reshuffle. We will, you may never know. You will look on your face like you have, you know something. No, no, no. I was just going to say, I wonder if we'll if like that will feel like a, you know, more likely possibility if we don't return and spend a lot more time with Kane after this episode. But if we do, maybe it will feel like a less likely possibility.

What I was going to say is like, it strikes me as entirely possible because we know that the creators are perfectly willing to use an hour of a season of TV for characters who aren't the central focus of the show. That's what happened in Bobo with Mando. I think if you, the, the logic behind that in Boba Fett was not. Nothing happening in Star Wars right now is more compelling than watching Dinn try to meld with the Dark Sabre and wondering when Dan and Groger were going to be back together and how is how is Groger's training going?

I don't know that there's any way to talk yourself into the same working here. So if this episode didn't have those bookends, yeah, it would have been really, really strange. Which is why we get the reverse, which is like, okay, we know we can't give you this without any and Dan and Bo, I guess. So we're going to, yeah, we're going to book in it. I don't know. Again, this is just, I have no inside information. This is just like, I'm very curious about, to your point, the pacing of the season.

And to your earlier point, we are nearly halfway through the season of television. There's only eight episodes of season. So this is just like, it's wild. What is going on here? What do you want to say, Joe, on that note, by the way, about the murmurs, the rumblings, about the season three audience so far. Let's just say that it's, oh, like, grain assault of always with streaming data

because we don't always have people use third-party sources to get streaming data viewership. We often only have the streamer's word itself as to like who's watching how much and when. But the rap, which is a very reputable, you know, trade, had a story about the Mandalorian viewership and was saying that it was massively down, again, 50% up from Andor, but massively down from both Book of Boba Fed and Obi-1, which is surprising because, as you said, like, Mandalorian feels like this is the flagship show of this whole thing. And so, like, you would expect, no matter what, that it would outperform Boba and Obi-1. it's potentially

that's potentially connected to you know some audience fatigue after Boba and Obi-1 not fulfilling maybe people's expectations and or they were like I will check in on this when I'm done with my other Pedro Pascal escorts a minor to safety show

and now that the last of us is over perhaps like people will binge and catch up something like that. But I was, I was kind of shocked. Again, grain of salt, but I was shocked to, because if anything, I would expect the Mandalorian to offer up a massive rebound, like, to outperform Boba and Obi-1 every time. And that is not the case here. So it seems to be. Yeah. Yeah. I find this incredibly surprising. Yeah. Shocked, honestly. It's strange. I wonder if it'll if it'll change over the course of the season. And like you said, there will be a catch-up and then a pickup and a back-half surge and a rekindling of that, like, this is the monoculture doesn't exist.

But if it did, this would be it right now, a feeling that you definitely felt developing in real time in season one. It was undeniable in season two. Right. With the Grogu memes and all that sort of stuff happening. But we should say that the Mandalorian, like it did premiere a couple weeks ago, but it is premiering in the thick of, and, just a truly wild time for television in terms of like succession, Yellow Jackets Barry, Ted Lasso. Like there's a lot of things competing for attention.

Yes. In the upcoming weeks. None of those were airing when the premiere came on. Correct. Other than The Last of Us. So that, that I find particularly strange. I mean, I have to assume that this is deeply troubling to Lucas film because not only, only because Mando is supposed to be the signature thing, the sure thing in Star Wars right now,

but because it is the center of the new timeline. Like, if these are the Mando numbers, and I say this as someone who, and you know, you know this is true, like, I'm more excited for Asoka than like almost anything in my life. Yeah. But if this is the Mando viewership, what's the Asoka viewership going to be? I mean, what's the skeleton crew viewership going to be? And I like, I don't know if you guys talk about this at the ringer, something we used to talk about at Vanity Fair was this idea of like, I don't know if it sounds kind of douchey, but like this idea of like there's there's like the things you make that are, that you want to be wide reaching hits.

And there are things you make that still feel like a hit if they're the hit with the right audience, like a certain audience. And so, yeah, this is just like an engagement sort of conversation. And so like I don't think Lucasin was looking at Andor as a miss because Andor was a hit with like, you know, prestige TV, you know, like sort of thing. And so it adds something to their brand for that to be at least a modest hit. But they want the Mandalorian to be a mega blockbuster. We put Favreone-Faloney sort of half in charge of all of Star Wars right now hit.

So, you know, I don't want to doom and gloom it. And again, streaming numbers are always hard to figure out. so I don't want to overreact, but I just thought it was, I was like, it was shocked, shocked. Yeah. Guys, let's all watch Grogo every week and talk about it. Come on.

I mean, what could be cuter. Come on. Before we talk about Grogo. Yeah. Episode name. This is something we always like to chat about. Yeah. The convert.

Yeah. Two different converts in this episode, Joe. What did you want to say about the title before we get to our deep dive? Who is the convert or who are the converse? that stand out to you. What about this idea more broadly? You look at the apostate, the convert, this religious imagery across the titling this season.

What do you want to say about this? I mean, I was thrilled that the title was convert because of this sort of religious conversation that we've been having about the themes this season. And to, I mean, good old Vizla is just throwing around the word apostate. Like, he just learned it. My guy has one move right now. And I honestly love it.

I find it so funny that he just says one thing over and over again. It was just waiting there at the mouth of the cave, ready to call Dindjaran and apostate and get dunked on again. Great stuff. But, like, the apostate minds of mandolore and then the convert are three titles this season. And this idea that, like, you can go from apostate, take a little dunk in the minds of mandolore and come back. And did is not necessarily.

convert here. I mean, if I had to pick one convert, because we could certainly apply it over to the Pershing side if we want to. But like, Bo feels like the most obvious, though I have questions about her true motivations here. But like, if you asked maybe the armor or maybe Dengharan, like, who has converted to Orthodox Mandalorianism this week, they would say. Amazing stuff from the armor. You have no interest in my cult. In fact, you blame us for a lot of what has gone wrong. Tough shit. You're in. Welcome on in. You know what I mean? But I did, I mean, who would you call the convert if you had to pick one in this episode? I don't know if I would pick one. I think that's part of why I liked it because it fit so many different

characters. And it was a unifying idea across the slices of the episode. And so it made it feel less like a, oh, we're departing from our characters and more like another way into the same thematic idea. When are you able to hold on to your ideals inside of a different context? When do you have to compromise something about your life, your work, your mission, depending on who you're working with at a given moment in time? I thought that that aspect of it was a pretty rich. Whenever you can pick an episode title that applies to multiple storylines, that's always like a really fun thing. Like our pal Brian Cogman, let's talk about this with Thrones, like two of his episodes that he wrote that I love, Kissed by Fire, and a Night of the Seven Kingdoms,

you can apply that title to a number of different characters and storylines and, you know, hopefully even all of the storylines in a given episode. And so it's always a brilliant move. I did want to talk, can I take us back to Judaism Corner really quickly? We talked about this a bit last week with the email we got from Rabbi Tillman. But we got a bunch of emails in response to the rabbi's email, which I It was so fascinating to me. And so it forced me, or not forced me, it compelled me to look in a little deeper to, like,

what is the history of people understanding Star Wars through the lens of Judaism? And something I thought was really interesting is this pointing out that a lot of, or at least a few Star Wars names like Ezra, Ezra, Ezra, you like to talk about, Kane and Jaris in this episode, Elia. Yoda himself are all, like, Hebraic, like Jewish names that have significance. meaning. And I just thought I was like, why did I ever pick up on that before? But we got an email from a listener, Mordecai, which I thought was... Okay, first of all, that scared me. My heart almost just stopped. Secondly, whenever I forgot about the call.

Whenever I see the name... Danny kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet and we kind of forgot about the car. Whenever I see the name Morda High, I think of the Royal Tannenbaum. which is like the name of the falcon, fly more to be free. So the fact that a cock came in was like a real moment for me. Anyway, this listener writes, the sages teach us that the second temple was, and we talked about this last week,

the idea of the temple being destroyed, a Jewish temple being destroyed, and inspiring this idea that we can understand through the lens of Thor Ragnarok, which is, you know, this faith, this, this whatever is not a place, it's a people. Also, who wrote Thor Ragnarok, Tycho I-T-T-T, who's a Jewish writer.

Okay, so the sages teach us that the second temple was destroyed on account of infighting. Jews quarreled fiercely and allowed those quarrels to escalate to mistreatment of one another. There was literal infighting between factions of Jews before the Roman Empire retook Jerusalem and flattened everything. One of the factions responsible for this infighting slash baseless hatred that led to the destruction of the temple was known as the zealots. And according to Wikipedia, even the zealots had factions. I have not watched the animated shows, but based on what I've heard you discuss, it sounds like there are some parallels. I don't know if the animated prequels explained where quote unquote watch comes from in the context of the Mandalorians, as in children of the watch or death watch. But it does remind me of the term priestly watches to describe the priestly families who served in the temple on a rotation.

One reason I think it's worth noting some of these parallels is in case it is something to tell us about where the show might be headed. After 50 years of the destruction of the temple, the Jews revolted against the Romans under the leadership of a bar kukba, which means some of the story. of a star. Things didn't end well for the newly unified shoes. The show is, of course, Star Wars. I'll also throw in that the ritual immersion in living waters is definitely a thing in Judaism, but also in other religions, as I'm sure you are aware. So I don't think that element alone of set any gears in motion. Oh, and of course, head coverings are a thing too. So like talking about the Kippa, like, of course, and that's true. And of course, this is me, Joanna's talking. That's true, of course, a number of religions, this idea of like covering your head,

being an act of, you know, I don't want, I don't like the word extreme, you know, but like maybe orthodoxy, like, you know, faith, stringent faith or something like that. Yeah, so I'm, as far as I'm concerned, Judaism Watch continues. I find this really, really interesting again, especially given what we know about John Favro and his relationships. I would be so fascinated to hear Favro. and Or Faloni talk about this, if this is actually on their mind. But even if it's not, like something that has always been true of Star Wars is that, you know, George Lucas is not trying to create a religion with his concept of the Force and Jedi, stuff like that. You know, he has said as much, like, this is just an adventure, blah, blah, blah. But the way he took from largely Eastern religions, I think, in creating, like, this concept,

allows enough of a generic spiritual or religious entry point for people to watch Star Wars and feel like they can connect to or understand it. And I think I've said this before on this podcast, but I have a friend of mine who is a huge Star Wars guy was saying, like, if you talk to most millennials and they talk about how they understand faith and they describe it, they often describe the force. you know, oh, it's just this thing, I believe, in this energy that connects us all. It connects all around us.

Yeah, you know. So the impact that Star Wars has had in our understanding of, like, faith and spirituality is so interesting. We don't call Anakin Mitechlorian Jesus for nothing, you know? No, but seriously, like, if you think of the original trilogy, we hear the words ancient religion among our first orienting, buttresses and bearings for how we hear other people, people inside of the universe talking about the force. So yeah, that's fascinating. Favs,

come talk to us. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Standing invite if you're listening. This episode is brought to you by Sweet Green. The day doesn't ask for permission. Lunch window? Gone before you saw it coming. You deserve a break that actually satisfies. Sweet Green's new wraps have got you. Real ingredients? Zero shortcuts. Everything you love in one hand. Think green goddess chicken. Garlic aole. Crumbled bacon, corn salsa, 40 grams of protein. Made to keep up with whatever comes next. New sweetgreen wraps hit different. Order now at order.com. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start.

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Is it time to dive deep? Is it time? To bathe in the living waters? That's a sound Mallory made last week. Wow. Steve, you just surprise us every day. I'm done yourself. I'm done yourself, buddy boy.

Buddy boy. Okay. So normally we go in exact chronological order through the episode. We're going to go in chronological order, but not exactly through the episode. Through our two bits of story. So we'll take all of the Mando Grugubo stuff first, and then we will hit... Penn Pershing. Kane, Doc.

The New Republic. Pen Pershing. Amnesty programs, parole droids, all of it. Okay. But let's start with the Mandalorian crew. let's start right where we left off last week, back in the minds of Mandelor, right by those living waters,

where standing over Dinn, precious baby, looks very worried and then so relieved when Dinn wakes up, we get one of my faves, Grogu Babling. That's the subtitle there. His little hand Joe is out.

You could say, do we need to stop and talk about this? I would say, well, I got 15 minutes of Dina Grogh in this episode. Of course we need to stop and talk about it. Do you think he forced, force healed dad? Do you think he did a little bit of force heel in here?

I do. I do. Just reaching out for a loving touch or, uh. Yeah, just, just drying out the old lungs. You know what I mean? Like, just, um, oh my God, my precious baby. I love him. I guess if Amanda helmet, like, air locks on as we found out in this episode, like,

you wouldn't get a lot, a lot of gaps in the, in the chest area, though. How the respiratory thing works. Because Bo when Bo like gasped underwater, a lot of bubbles came out. You know what I mean? Maybe he was knocked out because the hard landing that we talked about last week. Just the head bobbed on the ground. And like as distracting as Grogu being concerned and babbling is, I also really like to be open with like, yes. I also like this opening shot of Bo just like sitting there taking it all in.

Just staring out at the water. Flashlight's still on. Disappointingly, and I'm worried for the rest of the season, we do not get to see Katie's face in this episode. And so we're back to interpreting Helmut acting, which is fine. This is great stuff, but, you know. I did want to ask how you were doing in light of this development,

because obviously we'll talk in a few minutes about what it means for Boca Dan's character to be a part of the Children of the Watch, seemingly without interest of being a part of the Children of the Watch. But what does it mean for Wig Watch, which Joanne Robinson. Right, right, right. That was the main question because you've talked a lot in the last couple weeks about the updating and the evolution of the wig.

What does you don't see it again? What will you do? We all have our extremist cults for some people. It's Death Watch for me. It's wig watch. I think this is a real tragedy. Somebody, I'm so sorry. I don't have it in front of me, so I don't know who it was, tweeted at me.

We were hoping that Beau would have an influence on Dan and we would see more Pedro Pescal's face this season if the reverse is true. And we see less or maybe even not. of Katie's face for the rest of the season, that's not the direction I want us to head in at all. And I'm a little worried because there was this whole chatter. You know, if you spend too much time online as maybe some of us do, you get into like social media detective mode. And I love this like social media detective mode that people got into

because I believe it was Brendan Wayne, Brett and Wayne and Lateef Crowder, who are the like, you know, body actors. Is that the word you would use for Mandalorian? And they're in the credits for the first time this season. They were like sort of listed in stunt performers, but now the Mandalorian seems like they're fully admitting that Pedro does some voice work in the booth and is mostly Brendan and Lateef doing the Mandalorian body acting, okay?

And so work. And Katie Sackoff, Brennan posted something. Katie's like, you were the best scene partner. I loved working with you. Couldn't think of anyone better day and day out, like essentially being like, it was you, it was not Penn. I was working with, you know what I mean? And so, like, I don't know.

I'm holding out hope. But I'm worried about helmet watch now. My main worry was we're inching even closer to covering Grogo's perfect, precious little gumdrop of a face with a helmet. And I simply cannot abide it. No. We'll not stand. Oh, boy. Well, we'll deal with that if and when we get there.

In the meantime, Dynne sits up and says... I am redeemed. You ever watch those delightful pitch meeting videos? This reminded me of super easy, barely any convenience for Ryan. I am redeemed. Bo replies, I witnessed it. You bathed in the living waters. You were Mandalorian again.

Can we leave now? Now, a couple things about this. I just want to say that can we leave now was instantly iconic and so funny to me. This absolutely slayed me. fracking up. But I do think a couple things are interesting here. The idea of Bo as the witness to this true thing is recurring across the scenes the rest of the way. Bo saying you are Mandalorian again and lending validity and credence to the creed, to the way to Dyn's interpretation of what is sacred and holy,

does this indicate something changing inside of herself after what she saw beneath her. the living waters, or do you think this is just her giving in what he wants to hear so that they can peace out? I don't think she's fully, I don't think she's fully processed, as we'll talk about in a second. I don't think she's fully processed what she saw. So I don't think this is immediately like the words of a convert. I think she's, you know, if we could see her face, I think there would be a tiny bit of an eye roll when she's like, you were a Mandalorian again. You keep hearing a voice a little bit. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay, buddy. You're, you're Mandalorian again. Can we go? Yeah, that was, that was my read too. But they can't go. They can't go just yet because Dinn needs to take his camelback and dip it into the living waters. Bring back some proof to the armorer.

This was, okay, can I just say? You wrote camelback in our notes. I love that you wrote camelback. Last week when I talked about this, I said Naljean. And the reason is this. Camelback is what like real outdoors people use. Naljin is what like pretender North California outdoor people. I got one a couple weeks ago. And as you know, I am. not really inclined to spend much time in the outdoors or really even go outdoors. And so I felt like it was a, on the one hand, like just a regular old purchase to have a water bottle with me. And on the other hand, like one of the most meaningful changes I've made in my life. It's like, look at me. I have a camelback now. Is it just the water bubble that you got? Or did you get like the hardcore camelback, which is the like pouch of water? with the, come on. I mean, what I'm going to do?

Sit on my couch with a backpack for podcasting. For podcasting, I could see you. Can you imagine? Like in your like dune still suit sitting in front of the microphone, just having your little like pipette of water. It implies that I'm also like peeing into it during recordings, which would lead to a more efficient recording session for us. So let's not roll it out.

As my guy David Chikobi says, no bad ideas in a brainstorm. But anyway, now Dean for pretenders, Camelbacks for real ones. But yeah, he bottles living water as we hoped he might. We will see later that this is ultimately the test when the armor pours it into the basin and says, okay, he's telling the truth. It happens. So the magic of the liquid is coming to the fore and the story more. I found myself wondering, like, what would happen if they ran out?

We know the armor has some because we've seen her use it, but would she no longer be able to forge their armor without it? She doesn't seem like she's in short supply because when she does the little test later, that's a healthy poor. That's a healthy poor. I know, I know. If they haven't gone back, though, to test out this is the air poison propaganda. Don't you think a drop would have done it?

Why did she pour so much if this is precious, like, liquid that she needs for forging? I have a great question. I always have a lot of questions when it comes to the armorers, you know. I have a question about what happens next with Din and Bo as well, because as Din lifts Grogo into his little little basket, we get

a totally inconspicuous, nothing to see here, no follow-ups to ask exchange. Steve, can we please hear this? Can I ask you something? What is it? You see anything down there? I saw the cat. Passing me as I fell.

I didn't realize it was so deep. It wasn't. The bombings from the purge must have triggered seismic activities. Did you see anything alive? Alive. Like what? Nothing. Joanna. Joanna Robinson.

Beloved co-host friend, trusted partner. The main question is, Bo doesn't tell Dinn about the Myth of Sor to discuss. What does it mean? what do we think. But my real question is, is Din Jarn who we love and adore a fucking idiot? He doesn't sense here that Bo is prodding toward a specific inquiry?

Like, why not ask? Why are you asking me this? What did you see? It seems like maybe you saw something. Did you see something alive? Dan. One of our listeners, and I'm sorry, I don't have it in front of me, one of our listeners called him a hymbo, Mando Himbo.

I was like, kind of. I mean, like, in contrast to bow, Mando, yeah, it's just not, though, you know, he at least, like, does some good fancy flying in a bit, purrs himself so worthy. But, like, yeah, not the, not the shiniest helmet in the armor, you know what I mean? I actually kind of love this because it reminds me,

like, it takes me back a bit to season one Mando, where we were falling in love with the character, we were falling in love with the pairing, We were deeply invested in growing more so every week, but also every week the conversation real time was, is Ding just going to keep making the same mistakes and doing the same dumb things and leaving Grogu without observation and going off to try to land more credits, etc.

So this feels like, you know, true to his spirit in some ways. You mentioned that look that Bo has the way that she's gazing out of the water when Grogu is putting his healing hand on dad's chest at the very opening shot. We get another, like, long gaze here. We get the let's get out of here, but before Bo actually gets out, it's a let me look down at the water one more time so we can feel everything, think that it's going through ahead at the moment. Let's just go to Theory Corner right here inside of the deep dive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Will Bo keep this a secret for a number of subsequent episodes until perhaps the end of the season and then make a move on the Mythosaur and try to claim it?

Let's refresh on what the armorer said of the Mythesaur in Booba Chapter 5. The songs of Eon passed for told of the Mythosaur rising up to herald a new age of Mandelor. Sadly, it only exists in legends. Well, no, it doesn't. Here it is. Unerthed by the seismic activity. More on that in the second. We've talked at length already about Bo's relationship to the Dark Sabre and resentment of the way that it signifies legitimacy to rule.

But the Mythosur is also that. So is she giving up on the saber and saying, this is my way in? This is the move I make. Will she try to get both? when will it happen? Will she tell anyone before she goes to do it? What do you think? What's your prediction? I think, you know, not to skip ahead too much, but the fact that like when the swearing-in ceremony, if that's what we want to call it, happens at the end of the episode, her helmeted gaze landing on the mythosaur skull. Yep.

That means she's like, okay, maybe I can take this whole covert and make them mine. My followers. That's exactly how I read it too. in a state of despair, her followers have melted away because she didn't have the dark saber. Here's another way in, and maybe it's one without needing the saber at all. I think that what's interesting about it in the context of this episode in particular is that Bo, and you noted this in episode two, comes to Mando's aid once again. This time it's verbally. Like, let me come to your defense and explain the way you're saying is true. We get the great teamwork in the dog fight, which we'll talk about in a second. time and time again, multiple times inside of each episode so far, these reminders that they work together really well, that this would be a strong alliance, maybe as strong as that Bessgar forged in the living waters.

Yeah. A strand cast. The secret out like looms really large. A couple other questions. When Dins says basically, yeah, I did in fact do the Jamie Lannister. I did just fall into shockingly deep water that I didn't know was there. Does that make any sense to you, or do you think that the Mithosaur

did in fact pull him down? I kind of don't know how to process him getting to that depth without the Mithosaur pulling him, which I then kind of view if that is what happened as the Mithosaur choosing him, which might set up another conflict.

It looked like a yank to me. Like, I don't, you know, like, so, yeah. One thing I like about this idea of like the seismic activity, you know, you have these questions of people thinking that the, the myth of sorts of extinct or maybe never real, right? This is kind of our relationship to it

before we see it at the end of last episode. I love, two things. One, I just like thematically the idea of like during the purge, the bombing, the empire inadvertently awakening something that will be so central to its inevitable eventual demise or at least a temporary setback on the way to the new order. I think that like awakening your eventual challenger is a really cool classic idea.

this also, though, made me think of the Zillow Beast, which is an important part of a cool Clone Wars arc. There's a creature called the Zillow Beast, and a bombing on the planet Malastair cracks open the under surface, and the Zillow Beast emerges. Now, that planet, where they're, happened with the Zillob Beast and Clone Wars got a shout out in this episode. That was one of the Easter eggs that the Schofer droid who's taking Pershing around Corrassant mentions, which I think

is deliberately there to make us think of the Zillow Beast. But crucially, the Zillow beast connects to the cloning plot because the Zillow beast was a creature that in that Clone Wars arc, Palpatine coveted because it has this like basically indestructible armor. He wanted to be able to replicate that power. The Zillow beast just popped up again. bad batch. Like, this also feels very deliberate, again, especially

in an episode where cloning is so, so, so central. So that really, that parallel felt the... I went in a different direction. Hit me. To cite an author

that Lucas likes a site, that Filoni likes a site, goes a little something like this. Moria, if you had to go into those minds, the dwarves delve too greenly and too deep. You know what they are.

woke in the darkness of Casa Dune, shadow, and flame. Right? It's the Balrog. Absolutely. You know? So here it comes. Fantastic. 10 out of 10.

No notes. I love a ballrog. I love it. And I love the dogfight. I can't wait for Faux to say that. It's going to be great. Oh, God. The gauntlet departs Mandelorio.

We have a quick but absolutely. absolutely monumentally important conversation in the gauntlet before the dog fight that we simply must discuss. First, Dean, he's saying, you know, yeah, draw me off at my ship. He says, you will forever have my gratitude, which couldn't help Bo wonder, like, what would that sentence be worth if there is a rupture eventually and a fracture sets in? We'll see. But Bo says, I would invite you in for a feast, but I'm guessing the helmet isn't coming off again. Now, that line struck me as like a bigger deal than it seemed because not only is she like there's still the the light ribbing but basically accepting you've chosen to live your life this way i'm going to like stop trying to talk

you out of it at least for now but when her droid pal who were about to save our ip too tough tough end for that guy told her in the second episode that the end one was back what did she say let's get rid of him once and for all and now one episode later she's inviting him for a feast. Like, this is instantly one of the closest people to Bo in her entire life. And you really feel that here. Low bar for Bo, right? It's true.

She has absolutely no one. So now she is like awesome one. This is very, very, very, very sad. But it's more than just one someone because we're going from a back and forth exchange to a three-way conversation here. Steve, can we hear this clip? This is the way. this is the way. Now, is this the most important moment in the history of television?

I mean, that's up for you to decide. Each person listening to this podcast needs to think about that and come to their own conclusion. I think it's in the running. Joanna, what is your read on this? Is it that Grogu spoke a full sentence and said in response to this is the way, this is the way? This is the way. Or, because the dog fight immediately sets in and the end up, attack comes seconds after this, did he sense the approach through the force and try to utter a

warning? Either way, he spoke a full sentence here without death. This is clearly, this is the way. Like, clearly to me. And even more so than the like incoherent babbling is did it and Bo's reaction, right? They turn their heads because they're like, this is a sentence. And so I'm like, should we go do a podcast on this? Uh-huh. And they're like, wow. Look at us bear witness to the most important moment in television history. But like on the front of Grogu speaking, I sent Mallory at the stick talk yesterday. But someone asked Pedro Pascal, like what five words would he want Grogu to learn in Spanish? And he said, yo te quiro much, poppy.

I love you very much. Daddy. Oh my God, it's so great. Anyway, I just wanted to add that. isn't this so interesting based on the this is the way conversation we've had the last couple weeks where it's like this is a phrase that we've just seen

Bo and Din bond over in the minds of Moria and in the minds of Malaria, right? You know, where when talking about her father, you know, they say it and it's a very emotional way for them

to connect to their culture and stuff like that. We've talked about the way in which the armor says it as a dismissive missile, you know, previously, so like that. Like, so it can mean so many different things. So, like, for this to potentially be Grogo's first words is, like, perfect. You know what I mean? Because it can mean whatever you need it to mean in that moment.

You know what I mean? So for Grogo to sort of Donald duck his way through this is the way, I mean, Pellimoto would say that Grogo already spoke, you know, earlier. But, like, this is true. This is perfect. Again, I'm very scared. for what the Grogu voice is going to sound like. Me too.

Fetrived. Very scared. Absolutely petrified. Because honestly, this is perfect. Can't we just do this forever? Isn't this perfect? So this is like, I mean, you were talking about, you were talking about this last week about how the bavals and coups communicate things.

I mean, this is Chubacca, right? Chubaka, like, if we had a creature in Grogu, who is saying things without saying them in basic and we had a day. was able to understand, you know what I mean, and, like, respond. But I love, I love the way the two of them go and look. It was a very, darling. Yeah, I gasped. So sweet and wonderful.

Interrupted mere seconds later by a space battle. I guess Grogo's first sentence could have potentially been, What Do You Hear, Starbucks, nothing but the rain. Didn't grab your gun and bring in the cat, because we got to watch Katie Zackoff in a dog fight and a high as a battle star obsessive was fucking thrilled. This was a delight. Fun dog fight, fun sequence

in general. A couple interesting lines and moments to parse inside of it. We get a discussion about where these forces came from. Didn't just ask, where did they come from? Bo says, I've scugged off

a lot of imperial warlords. I love to skug people off, personally. I'm forever scugging. Don't you think, Mel? Bad, maybe. That's not how I meant it. That's how I was thinking of it. Thank you, Steve.

Mine's in the gutter all the time here. I don't know. Alcivar after dark. Can't help it. So my question is, why now with this attack? You know, if we go by the Favs timeline, confounding, though, it may be, then taking Gideon's Light Cruiser was a minute ago.

I mean, a substantial amount of time, years has passed since then. This attack has to have been sparked by something that just happened, meaning we can deduce someone just seeing them on Mandelor and needing to stop or silence them from spreading word that it is in fact safe to go there. So does the idea, the theory that we talked about last week, that there's a secret imperial base down on Mandelor seem like right to you now, Joe? I feel like that's looking pretty good. I mean, I think especially since Din has that line of like, well, that's a lot of, like, well, that's a lot. lot of ships. You know what I mean? Like where, you know, like, yeah, I like it. Where did all these ships come from? Like, you know, we don't see, we don't see the cruiser that they could have exited from. Right, because they're, right, because they're, they're, they're tie interceptor,

so they don't have hyperdrives, which means they couldn't have jumped from far away. They either had to come from somewhere close or get dropped off by a larger ship. Usually when we see tie fighters of any stripe, they come like out of the belly of a larger ship, right? And so, like, this, you know, where did, where do they come from? Where do they come from? What's your theory? I mean, when Bo says that's a lot of ships for an imperial warlord, it takes us out of a level of, of foe, like the client into Gideon territory or, your drum roll, please, Thron territory.

Like, I think this is a huge episode for setting us on the course to Throne. Do you think Thron is hiding on Mandelor? Okay, so I'm all of a couple minds on this. I don't mean to say, I don't mean to say that in credulous. I'm like, on the one hand, no, because I think I just feel like so much of Asoka is leading toward that mystery. But on the other hand, given the connected nature of this universe, it will not surprise me at all if we get that answer. Where is Thron and that glimpse? Where is Gran Amal Throne in Mando? And then pick up from there in Asoka. So I wouldn't be shocked,

but maybe it's a minion of Thorns and Thrawn is pulling the strings. Maybe Gideon has been working for throw on this entire time. What if? What if? What if? What if? What if it's mall again? I mean, this would be a thrill for you.

But would you want them to use an animated mall inside of a live action show? Yeah, it was. That's really your, that's your vibe there. I love it. It's always mall. I know we've seen Mall die for real for real this time probably, but that's what we thought in the past. And he just keeps fucking coming back.

We can't touch the Obi-1 Mall. Whatever there's- I mean, I would like to think so, but I don't trust Star Wars to keep people dead. And like the, it's always mall on Mandelor. Like, you can't, anyway, whatever, it's probably not mall. But I'm just going to. I would love this for you.

I'm just going to put that out there in the universe. Oh, boy. And then we get like a mall-cob van, like, fight. Great, love to see it, love to hear. When you say fight, do you mean? Are you shipping? They skugging each other off. Oh my God.

Okay, you mentioned what a good team, Dinabo making this fight. And this is the thing is like, when it comes to dog fights in Star Wars, like, because I'm not a like smash your Kennard toys together in the backyard kind of Star Wars fan, I always like. Unlike me, yeah.

No, not you. I'm talking about Favro. But like, we always like, we talk about this in lightsaber, battles, we always like to see some sort of like, what is the character development associated with this? You know, it's not just like, pew, pew, pew, pew. Like, what is it telling us about the characters?

And here, it's like, it's essentially like the dogfight version of, you know, Ray and Ben like fighting in the throne room in The Last Jedi when you see people who have been at odds and then they fight in perfect harmony together. And then that could foreshadow further devastation when it. it falls apart or whatever the case may be. We got an email from Catherine that I really liked because we always like to talk about Thrones when we can. Thrones and Thron.

Those are two favorite things. Okay. So Catherine wrote, I totally understand where you're coming from with your Danny and John comp for Bo Catan and Dinjaran. However, as I was watching at a different comp in mind, Jamie and Brienne. Bo is like Jamie, the child of privilege who has been brought low by crushing defeats. She compensates by mocking din.

much like Jamie mocked Brian. She sees his loyalty to the way as misguided to the point of naivete, like Jamie's disdain for Brian's loyalty to Friendly. I'm really excited to see more of Bow and Den together this season, even if it never becomes romantic. I really enjoy their dynamic, and I'm hoping for a better outcome than Jamie and Brian.

What do you think of this introducing the old Kingslayer into the conversation here? Interesting. I don't know if I would have ever gotten to that comp just because, I don't know, Jamie and Brangels feels like utterly singular to me, I think. Danny Jazz still feels like a cleaner parallel, but I do think that there are aspects of this that work. What do you think? I think Bo and Jamie in this idea of like a noble, you know, we see her on her throne and then

her castle gets blown up. Like someone who's born into privilege, born into nobility, brought to the absolute rock bottom, because like things have fallen and fallen and fallen for bow and now she doesn't even have her fancy chair and her droid she's got literally nothing when she rolls up to the covert right right which is this is her version of i i was that sword hand i was that hand yeah right right like she might as well have her hand dangling from her neck in this moment right and so like uh i like i like that comp a lot i and i see the parallel of dend and brian for in terms of like someone who is adhering really rigidly to a code. But in terms of the spark of their dynamic, it's not quite the same for me. Yeah. Interesting.

Okay. Well, we'll track it. We'll track it. Fascinating. I mean, it excites me because, as you know, I find Jimmy and Brie and I'm much more interesting than I find Danny and John. And so, like, you know, that is a dynamic I'd rather pursue than, you know. I don't want it.

I'm excited to keep thinking about that as we watch their relationship. ship unfold and they're going to be spending a lot more time together because after Bo watches her castle bombed, again, by the way, like this is the homeworld of Clan Crees. They could have bombed the castle at any point, even if Bo had been out and about on other adventures and excursions and not just sitting on the throne all the time. The why now just feels like the mandolour romp is inextricable from the ensuing event. You know, on the throne's front, I'll just say, by the way that Dan reminded me with his straight up and then straight down maneuver. That was very, uh, Agon-Belarian, Heron-Holl-esque.

I liked that. I liked that a lot. I will say it gave me an unbelievable amount of anxiety to see Dan and Grogu separated at like a high tension moment. And I'm loving like tracking Grogu the way he looks between Din and Bo as they talk. And we're watching, I think, a interest form between Grogu and Bo as well. And so I think that if she, does turn if she and Dinn find themselves opposed as opposed to aligned, I think that

Grogu will be very upset about it and crestfallen. So that's like, that's a real emotional weight. A couple things for me. One is that what felt significant to me in that moment is that Dan trusted Bo to leave Grogu with her. I mean, it's hard to base jump with your, you know, baby's pram strapped to you or whatever. So like, but there, I feel like, close in the cover of the second dad left. I feel like there are very few people that he would leave Grogu with in that moment, right? And then also I want to say when he's like, you know, again, base jumping sort of like he's in point break or something like that. I was like, I was like, this is a terrible idea.

And then I just, I just forgot about the jetpack. And I was like, oh, he has a jet pack. Okay, this is a less terrible idea. But I was like, what are you doing? What is this? Anyway. Some amazing maneuvers for both of them, bow with like the turn. one wing up, down, and then the drop to zero G and R5, like, floating.

It was a neat little battle, but too many enemy forces on the way. And so we've got to jump. We'll theorize later about where they came from. We got ahead to these coordinates, which are taking us back to the Dino Turtle Cove, where we left the covert in the first episode of the season. Dan explains that this is how they survived exile. Bo says, I'm familiar. I still live by the old ways after Dan explains that it's a secret that she's his guest.

And I kept thinking, like, has Dingerer just forgotten about the conversation that he had with the armor who basically was like, yeah, I'll answer your question about Bo Katan by telling you that she's a failure and also is cursed. Please be warned. And then just brings her in. And the armorer said Bo Catan is a cautionary tale. This was in Boba chapter five again. She once laid claim to rule Mandelaar based purely on blood and the sword you now possess, but it was gifted to her and not won by Creed. Bo Catan Crees was born of a mighty house, but they lost side of the way.

Her rule ended in tragedy. They lost their way and we lost our world. Like she blames Bo for what happened for the curse. And Dyn just like, let me bring you home. This was just fascinating to me, in part because it all ended up being fine and tidy pretty quickly in a way that I felt was kind of strange. Mando hymbo energy.

You know what I mean? At least he remembered to say it will go smoother if you keep your helmet untrust me. That was something. That was something. We already talked about Paz Vizla greeting them with the classic signature apostate utterance.

I also, I want to shout out. Actually, I should look it up, but I don't know who the actor is who like does the body movement for Paz Vizla, but I loved the saunter out, right? Like, there is just something like, this, yeah, this guy is, like, enormous. And, like, Paz is such a fucking dick. And the way he just, like, saunters and looms is just excellent stuff.

Pass Vizzla can't stop saying apostate, can't stop catching L's, because he tries to embarrass Dian who just says, no, I've got it. I've got the living waters. I did it. This is where we start to get into that stretch of Bo coming to his defense saying she bore witness. I thought it was interesting that Paz didn't. know who she was. He says, who are you night owl? Now, I love a night owl, Easter egg and reference and call out this sect of, uh, uh, the female Mandalorian warriors. This was fun, but like, on the one hand, I was just like, you don't know who the former

ruler of Mandelor was, like, especially you of Visla, because she was the right hand of pre-visla and death watch. Your forebearer and the forbearer of your sect, but they were sequestered on the Concordia and in exile, so maybe it is believable that he wouldn't know. I don't know. I couldn't decide if this was strange or not. Well, but all the night owl armor looks pretty similar not to like, you know,

not to... Yeah, but Bo's helmet is like specific. Nobody else has that exact. She's got the night out of the the signets, but nobody else has that exact paint pattern or styling. I don't know. Paz, I guess, doesn't pay much attention. I have good, I don't have facial blindness.

I have good facial recognition, but I have to say, If I had to track everyone by the color of their Mando helmet, I would not be, I would not do well. I'll let it go. I'll move on. I'll move on, just like Paz is going to have to, because when the armor measures those pH levels,

uh, it's a go right away. I did love the, what I thought was a kind of iconic assist blended with a neg from Boe. When she says, I was witness, he fell into the depths and I pulled him out. So she's like,

he did it. He did the thing. But also I had to rescue him because he's a loser. Vote for me. Also, I have questions about, like, the living waters is like pearlescent as it drops in, right? And I'm like, I don't remember that water in the cave looking that way. So is it in reaction to something else? Yeah, I would say, I would think so.

Or is it just that the lighting in the cave was not strong enough to show how special the waters are? Perhaps secret base on Mandelaar is after, are they after the best scar and the mine? Are they after the water that gives this magical power? After the Mythesore. Yeah. So let's talk for a second before we move to Pershing about Bo also being redeemed

even though she wasn't seeking redemption. Because in addition to, I think it was a genuine surprise that the armorer, I was surprised that the armorer said, yeah, yeah, you come on in too. Yeah. But from Bo's perspective,

here are just a couple of the things we've heard her say about the Children of the Watch before. In Chapter 11, Children of the Watch are a cult of religious zealots that broke away from the Mandatory In the Mandalorian society. Chapter 17, your cult gave up on Mandelor long before the Persh.

Where were you then? So is it just what we discussed earlier? This is a path to claiming followers and regaining leadership. Is it maybe more emotional than that? I have no one. My followers melted away. I didn't get the saber. Now my home is bombed.

And here I can belong, even if this isn't exactly a creed that I subscribe to and abide by? Is it loneliness? At its most interesting, the Mandalorian is going to be all of those things at once. This idea of belonging and the lure of that, how we better understand, Dins. You know, like, the children of the watch pick up foundlings. And in picking up foundlings, you can earn a lot of, like, loyalty and devotion because you have rescued someone from isolation. This is also something that cults do, by the way, that they prey upon isolated people. You know what I mean?

So there's like a virtue to it, but also a danger to it. Let us welcome you into our found family, but only if you do exactly what we say, no longer believe the things you believe. Don't call home. You know, and like... Don't take your helmet off. Don't call home, exactly. And Beau is extremely vulnerable in this moment because everything, everything, even her dumb throne has been taken away from her, right? We got this really interesting email from Patrick.

I thought they wanted to read here. And we actually got several emails from members of the military in response to this episode, which I thought was interesting. But Patrick wrote, I'm the first person to my family to join the military and I've stayed in for 20 years now. I like it enough to have stuck it out this long, but I came to it as someone who has never exposed to it outside of movies and those terrible recruiting ads on TV growing up. I've never had a whole lot of blind faith in it in what they're doing, a la Dyn. But I see younger military members coming in with a reverence for the. the military that mirrors dins baked in near zealotry that the children of the watch instilled in him. Contrasting with that, I have a few friends who grew up in families were literally everyone

served going back several generations, and they frequently have a hardwired disdain for the military that mirrors bo's cynicism. Not an amazing insight, certainly, but seemed to so directly mirror a real military culture that I thought it was worth mentioning. So, you know, we've talked about religion and faith and culture as it pertains to these very sex of men. But the Mandalorians are warrior, warrior people, barring Sotene's brief reign. You know what I mean? And so like... And that was why Death Watch really became so active in opposition to that pacifism and an

adherence to the warrior way, yeah. It's a militarization of these various sects that, you know, you can approach it from the pure face side, but you can approach it from the militaristic side as well. And that comes back around in the Pershing plot, right? because, like, there's a lot of, you know, we got an email. I'm sorry, I don't have in front of me. We got an email. Like, we'll talk about the biscuits in a second when we get to Pershing.

But, like, this idea that, like, the bonding over the MREs is something that, like, people who are once in the military will do. Like, there was a lot of, like, ex-military veteran bonding sort of language in this episode for Pershing. And so, you know, it's just, it's a thing that's going to run through this story is that mentality of belonging, of fighting, what do you do? What is a warrior do when there isn't a war to fight, right? Do you create a war so that you can fulfill your purpose? Like, what happens, you know? Yeah, I think this is fascinating because, like, Bo keeps speaking about these fractures

and these mistakes and how the Mandalrians were vulnerable to the empire to outside influence because they couldn't come together inside of themselves. And so entering the covert, joining, even though she does not abide by the creed, we've heard her refer to it as theater from her youth is potentially a way to say, I have a direct path to healing these ruptures, to repairing, and to aligning with people who I might otherwise have been opposed to it

and trying to unite. But will it surprise you for a second if when Beau rides out on the mythosur, if she does claim it, she says, taking my helmet off, but now I'm on the thing that you've cited for meons past. So what you said can't be right, come follow me now.

And does the path of unity just lead to more crumbling? And is this the tragedy, ultimately, of the story of the Mandalorians? If Katie taking, if Bo taking the helmet off as she rides the Mithosaur means we get to look at the wig. Yeah. Worth it. This is like your, you're a billion expressive face. Worth it, Bob. I need the helmet back off her face. It's fair.

I respect it. Don't hire Katie Sackoff, like, dangle her as the co-lead of the season. and then hide her light under a bushel for the next five episodes. To be clear, you mean co-lead with Grogo, right? Just to be clear, co-lead with Grogo? Co-humanoid lead. Okay, anything else about our Mandalrians, our helmeted palace before we hit the Corrassant crew.

Let's go to Corrassan. One of only two planets that exist in the entire system. It's Tatooine or his Corrassant. That's it, right? Oh, Joanna. Guess what, though? This is actually good news. I have to say.

Not only are we going to Corrassant, which maybe is unwelcome news, we are going to the Galaxy's Opera House. The twist that we are back with Dr. Pershing comes as he is talking about his past cloning work. We are back. I just heard the Baltimore. Boy, I just heard it.

Past cloning work down at the ocean, hon, and we're going to watch the O's and talk about our past clone and work with Dr. Persh. Joanna. Yeah. Here are the facts. Tell me if you're worried. We are back in the opera house, most famous to Star Wars fans for being the spot where palpi,

Aviard of him lied, wooed Anakin Skywalker to the dark side in revenge of the Sith. I thought it was a really weird moment when Pershing's talking about, like, the motivation that got him into cloning. And he was like, have you heard of Darth Plagueis the wise? I was like, oh, no. I had written down to say to you, did you ever hear the tragedy of Penn Pershing, the duped. Is it possible to learn this cloning power? And not.

From a Jedi. This was just a thrill to be back in the opera house. I'm looking apologetically love that scene in Sith. I'm sorry. I love that scene and Sith. I love it. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Joe.

Why apologize? Be yourself. Be you with your bad opinions. It's great. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it.

He is basically. No, I mean, I should say, that's, it's a good, it's, I don't like the prequels. That's a good scene. Ian McDermott, it's great. It's an amazing scene. No. It's true. It's not for a Jedi.

I'm sure everything will be fine. I'm sure this is all fine. There's nothing to worry about. We're definitely not supposed to be thinking about Babatina. I'm sure it's fine. Pershing. basically talks to the assembled about what a good boy he is, even though he used to be a part of an evil system.

He says the amnesty program saved my life. Now, in the season two finale of Mando, he had been IDed as a top target of the new republic by the pilot who was holding him hostage as his ear was eventually singed, the ear he's tugging here. The whole thing that we learned about the amnesty program here, we'll talk about more in a second,

the way that they give numbers, the way that they're monitoring and checking in, what the actual tasks are, etc. But no, as Kane enters and watches him, and we'll obviously talk more about Kane shortly as well, Pershing is talking about the idea of the New Republic giving them a second chance. He says, sadly, my research was twisted into something cruel and inhumane

in the behest of a desperate individual intent on using cloning technology to secure more power for himself. Now, he could just be talking literally about Gideon and maybe has no awareness of Palpatine. But obviously we as Star Wars, viewers are going to be thinking about Palpatine here. So we will tease for you all listening that we will be talking to Ben Lindberg in Lindbergh's lore look later today about the cloning canon, the clearly laid path here to somehow Palpatine returned.

We will chat more about that with Ben. But Joe, I had a question for you. Yeah, yeah. And we can kind of keep revisiting this idea as we go see. by scene here with Pershing. But I'm curious to know, like, how much you're holding him in judgment and how much you're feeling sympathetic toward him as you watch his arc in this episode. Because, like, he talks about his shameful work.

He talks about regretting what he did. He talks about his original intentions being good. He's tugging on his ear again, calling back to that moment where he was used as this pawn in this, like, hideous machine. But also, on the one hand, I guess more evident. in that respect is like we've seen him do good things and help. You know, he is the one who pointed them toward the brig where Grogu was in the season two finale, told them about the dark troopers, warned them there, said this is in subterfuge,

I assure you. Previously back in season one, he was the one who tried, who like stopped the client from killing Grogu, tried to keep him alive, right? Said literally, I protected him if it wasn't for me, he'd already be dead, please. But also like at the end of the day, did the work, passed along the knowledge, took Grogu's blood, told them later in that Navarro lab. season two hollow that we see that if they want to keep doing the work,

they're going to have to get more blood, which starts the search for Grogu all over again. So how are you processing that? How much is he a prisoner of this system and how much did he pursue an unholy knowledge? And again, that gets us to the setting of the opera house where Anakin is thinking, I'll do anything, no matter how unnatural,

to stop somebody I love from dying, which gets us to the origin story of Pershing as a cloner because we learn about his mom and her heart and how he just wanted to be able to clone in Oregon. So nobody else had to suffer a similar loss. Where are you? On your guy, Penn Pershing. I love when you ask me a question

and then it's like a five-minute monologue of lore. And then I'm like, I have to write down the question to remember what you asked me. Just got to give all that context for the journey we've been on with Penn Pershing. I love a deep dive in context. It's a great question. And I love this idea of like a scientist. which is not really an angle that we've pursued that much in Star Wars

of the seduction of like of the knowledge, of pursuit of knowledge, right, rather than pursuit of power, right? And the way in which he says over and over again is justifying like, you know, well, yeah, but we don't need the work to go by the wayside, right? Like we could do so much good with this work. There's something about Omidaptai,

who plays Penn Pershing, who I first met in the show American Gods in like an incredible storyline in American Gods. I love this actor. I feel naturally very empathetic towards him. And I think from the very first time we see him, we see him in conflict in season one, where we see like his hesitancy and his morality and the cuteness of Grogu pulling on him. versus the pull to explore a scientific thing that he is curious about. I think that light side, dark side pull is such an interesting,

this is such an interesting character to settle that in. I also think this is a superficial thing that, like, pen-purshing is one of the, like, cooler designs of the Mandalorian world. Like, I just love, like, his dark glasses. And, like, the whole look, it reminds me a lot of, um, Lawrence Olivier and the Marathon Man. Like, there's just, like, it's just a cool, character design of like, I'm always interested when this very emotionally empathetic actor

and this cool character design come together in a plotline. So again, you know, up top, I said I did not like this episode. It's not that I was like, oh, Dr. Pershing, I don't want to spend. I am interested in Dr. Pershing. Like, I'm excited that he's here. I believe that we tell ourselves things all the time to justify things. And I believe that he is like he is this this is nothing but a temptation plot for him. Tempted by cookies.

Tempted by the peak of a mountain. Tempted by this woman like all this sort of stuff. And the justification he gives himself over and over again of like, oh, well, I could use it for the greater good. I could use it, you know, I could use it to help. And I don't think he's lying, he's lying to himself more than he's lying to anyone. else. And that's how I view it. So I don't think he's an angel. I think he's someone who is trying to figure out a way to make two opposing moral ideologies smoothly coexist. Right. Yes. And that's, you know, and that's why he's such an easy mark for Elia and all of this. Exactly. Like for this

to be happening inside of a Star Wars story where the temptation of the pull to the dark side is always so, top of mind for us, you can say and really believe, as a reader or a viewer, a player of a game, any part of Star Wars, I see the way that this person has been used and controlled and deceived. And that's terrible. And then you can also say that there's a hubristic pursuit of something here that isn't right and that this character is attuned and smart enough to see that and try to justify it anyway. And that's often where things go so horribly, horribly wrong. And even like learning in this episode about, you know, we hear about the

Corrissont Accords and we learn more about like the New Republic's stance on cloning and the ethics of it and it not being allowed. And he's not allowed to continue his research. And so the decision of one person, again, being manipulated and duped by Keene to say, well, I know better than everybody else. Like I can, it'll be fine if I'm the one doing it is like something that we're programmed, of course, to be guarded against, even as, like you said, the performance is such a compelling and gentle one. And so we are, like, warmed to the character and rooting for him and

want him to be okay. I find that mix really energizing. Right. Exactly. And that's why, like, again, Pershing is compelling to me. So you loved the episode. It's your favorite episode of the Mandalorian everywhere you're ever, you're amending your opinion in real time. You want to go celebrate at the opera house? Is that where we landed? You had in your notes and I had in my notes this reference to Operation Paperclip, which is this idea of the Nazi scientists brought over to America during and after World War II to do scientific work for America. We'll just look at the other way at the fact that you worked for Hitler because we could use your scientific brains to further our culture. there's this great book, Operation Paperclip, colon the history of the secret program

to bring Nazi scientists to America during and after World War II. And there's this quote from the book about the mentality of these scientists, right? And it says, while most of the men felt patriotic and even nationalistic attachment to Germany, their motives centered mostly

on being able to finally obtain the funding needed to create the rockets all of them dreamed of. As von Braun once explained, there's been a lot of talk that the, I'm not going to attempt this German word, I apologize, finally sold out to the Nazis. In 1932, however, when the die was cast,

the Nazis were not yet in power. And to all of us, Hitler was just another Montbank on the political stage. Our feelings towards the army resembled those of the earlier aviation pioneers. The issue in these discussions was merely how the golden cow could be milked most successfully. So again, it's this idea that the Nazi scientists,

I'm sure not all of them, you know, whatever, But like this idea of like, well, we weren't there because we believe strongly in what Hitler was doing. We were there because someone was going to like give us, you know, endless budget to pursue these scientific ideas that we had long had. Now, when you add into that mix, we're not making rockets, we're cloning. And to your earlier point, that is a more like hubristic, plain God sort of scientific pursuit than some of the, you know, though building atomic bomb is all. also, as Chris for Nolan will explain to us later this year. But I bet. Yeah, me too.

But I think that, you know, you could make the argument that Pershing is just there for scientific reasons. And as soon as he sees the adorable green face of a baby and Werner Herzog is like, do what you have to. And he's like, no. So, again, Pershing is a fascinating character. The idea of taking the concept of Operation Paperclip and centering in an episode of a Disney Plus Star Wars show, again, is a fascinating prospect. Just execution-wise, I think we could have called Tony Gilroy

and had him work on this episode or something, you know. Well, execution-wise, there were some issues with the actual cloning work as well, which we learn a little bit more about. here. Now, again, we're going to talk about what this means with Ben later. But Steve, just before we go to the next scene with Pershing, can you play this soundby for us so we can carry this both donors nugget with us as we go? Thanks to the groundbreaking work of the Kamen Owens, we know that cloning can duplicate an individual from a single genetic strand. What my work explored was the hopes of combining multiple strands to create replicas that incorporated the best genetic attributes of both donors. The both owner stuff is just full, like, sirens blaring territory. We hear as we move into the next scene, him saying it's quite fascinating.

The first cast rejected the formula almost immediately. We're thinking of Snoke. We're thinking of the Sith eternal. We're thinking of Eggigle. We can't not be. We're thinking of the times we've heard Strand cast mentioned in Mando. We're thinking of Pershing himself talking about promising effects for an entire fortnight. But then, sadly, the body rejected the blood in the season two hollow.

and we will talk all about that with Ben later. But now we have to go hang out with some rich assholes in the hallway, Joe, in the lobby. And this was very like Andor vibe central. Yeah, but like compare it to the Mon Mothma party scenes that are all like subtlety and like, and also design-wise, like the costumes and the and the set work and Andor. It's just apples and oranges, honestly, like of the best apple. Like it's Granny Smith apple to like a. shitty moldy orange, you know me?

A delicious honeycrisp or pink lady, which is the best apple. Should say just as a reminder that Corrassan is not actually the seat of the new republic government the way that it was for the empire, that center, home base moves and roams around the galaxy, Hosni and Prime eventually, Shandrilla, etc. So this is more about like showing us high society and a crucial area. and sliver of the galaxy, but this isn't like New Republic HQ right down the, right down the road. I do want to say, I just really quickly before we move on from strand casting, my favorite kind of casting.

More so than podcasting. It's like strand casting number one, podcasting number two? Yeah. And then spellcasting number three. And then casting a line for fishing is always number four. So the, I mean, that's eugenics 101, right? the best features from the donors into, except, okay.

Horrifying. Horrifying. Love to talk about eugenics on a Friday morning with you, Mallory Rubin. What's the next? Well, we can just talk about the drunk, rich guy saying, Empire, Rebels, New Republic, I can't keep track. And his partner saying, we try not to get involved, certainly not a glowing endorsement of the new regime,

also not the first time in the show that we've heard this idea. If we go all the way back to season one and Grief Cargo saying in Chapter 3 to din, if it bothers you, just go back to the core and report them to the New Republic. Amanda's saying, that's a joke. But, and you've talked about this episode, this character, and how powerful this idea is before, one of the most potent moments for, are we sure the New Republic's good? It comes from our guy Mayfeld in Chapter 15 in season two. Steve, can we actually hear this?

Yeah, Empire, New Republic. It's all the same to these people. Invaders on their land is all we are. I'm just saying somewhere someone in this galaxy is ruling and others are being ruled. I mean, look at your race. Do you really think all those people that died in wars fought by Mandalorians actually had a choice? So how are they any different than the empire? Look, if you're born on Mandalor, you believe one thing.

If you're born on Alderon, you believe something else. But guess what? Neither one of them exist anymore. Fuck it. Fucking Bilber. Bilber, why do you have to be so good on shows when I, like, really don't like your comedy? anyway, so good. And I love when a quote from our preseason primer comes back around.

And this is a quote we talked about a lot in our preseason primer. But yeah, I mean, this, this like new republic, same as the old republic, is like such an important part of this episode. And so like I think again, that's why I think again, and yes, it's definitely hard not to think of Andor here or how just mesmerizing and magnetic those high society party sequences are in Andor. but I still like seeing these moments where we have to confront the fact that the new republic hasn't changed very much, hasn't changed enough. And that takes us to the amnesty housing that Penn Pershing currently calls home. He takes this ride with a droid who, again, is congratulating him on making it into the program. And you have to think, like, what happened to all the people who didn't?

Interesting. And this new Republic facility for rehabbing formal imperial cogs is this really fascinating scene and setting. They use numbers instead of names. We learn that Pershing is Scientist L52. We meet Amnesty Officer M34 and when we see when Pershing sees because we've already seen Kane from Gideon's light cruiser. G68. Now, there are a lot of different comps you can make here. But inside of Star Wars?

Storm Trooper. The clones. The clones. Yeah. But any stormtrooper, because, like, Finn, you know what I mean? Like, Finn gets his name, you know, instead of a number. Like, it's not just the clones. It's, like, anyone they put in the white helmet.

Like, this is creepy, creepy imperial New Order behavior. Yes. Yeah. Like, this is, like, one of the reasons Clone Wars as a show exists is to give us. an insight into the clones pursuing individuality. And like when they give themselves a name, how monumental that is for them to break free of that system. So that was like really, really, really harrowing.

We get a little Gideon discussion here. Of course, we're thinking of Gideon as soon as we see Kane. I heard he escaped in Route to the War Tribunal. This is just like picnic table chatter. No, that was just a cover story. I heard they hooked him up to a mind flare. and then Kane says, I try not to think about him anymore.

What do you think? Trip to Theory Corner. Did he escape? Did they hook him up to a mind flare? I think he escaped. That's my read. He's out in the wild and we'll be back in the show very, very soon.

Unsurprising. Can't keep John Carlo down. You know what I mean? And I think the way that Kane reacts here makes me feel like she's working directly for Gideon. Agreed. That they are still in communication and in cahoots.

Yes. And maybe they're both working for Throne. Here's open. I should say that another, I hate to do this. But like, so Katie O'Brien is playing Ely Cain here. Katie, we saw very recently in Ant Man Quatomania. Katie got her start as a stunt performer. Like doesn't have a long acting CV, but it's been working as a stunt performer. I do not think that she's a terribly nuanced or talented actress. And I think maybe if there were someone else in this role, what I do like, because again, she's in a honeypot situation, right? Where she's here to, you know, seduce, but not in like the conventional sense, seduce Pershing to, or maybe in the conventional sense, seduce Pershing.

And oftentimes those honeypot characters, like, do not look like, Ely Cain looks, and I love how tough and, like, you know, how tough she is. I love that. I love that she looks like she could beat the shit on me at any given time. Like, absolutely great.

I just think that, like, I had a problem connecting to her character in quantum ania. I have a problem connecting to her character here, and I just don't think, you know, Star Wars is full of sort of flat performances, for sure. But this just struck me as a really flat one, especially in contrast.

to Omead who was doing like some really, I think, nuanced stuff with Pershing. And just like the combo didn't really work for me. I guess we can talk about this more when we get to the mitigator mind-flayer segments at the end. But I was curious to ask you if you thought that this episode was setting up. Again, we think we'll get Gideon back probably sooner rather than later. We know we're working toward dawn eventually. But is this setting up Kane as like one of the central figures and villains of this season? Or is Kane just here for this episode as a pathway to the larger plot?

Like, how central is Kane going to be? I hope not very. Again, love and respect to Kitty O'Brien. Like, I don't, I don't, this does, this doesn't bring me joy to say. But like. Not like Imperial Biscuits? Yellow biscuits? I mean, that looks like lemony shortbread to me.

And that is one of my top-tier cookie options. So, you know. I love a shortbread. I love a biscuit. I was just genuinely deeply disturbed by this scene where all of the former imperial cogs sat around a picnic table with joy and jubilation and talked about what they missed from being Nazis. Yeah.

Disturbing. Oh, not that. Not like that. I don't know. Obviously, obviously. It's not like that. Just the cookies. I did think of cereal during the uniform part.

You know, like I loved a high collar. A tailored fit, Joe. I should say that. like just to circle, you know, stop, stop beating it. It's dead. Just to circle back to the Kitty O'Brien thing. Like, this is, this was some of my issues with Gina Carano, Gina Carano's personal politics aside. Kara Dune was a character that I wanted to like feel more connected with than I did. Again, I loved her physicality. But as an actor, Gina was not giving me like the depth of a bilber or someone else like that could bring to the stage here. So that's just sort of

what I was. But yeah, this is a very disturbing either way. It's a very disturbing conversation. It is. And Pershing is disturbed initially when he sees somebody from Gideon's ships as he didn't expect that. And over a very quick succession of scenes, their bond forges as part of this manipulation. And the context that we see Pershing occupying is part of how we come to understand pretty quickly, that he would be susceptible to not only the temptation of the biscuit, but that larger temptation to resume his work, to trust in another human being.

We see him in that Cyril-esque working environment where, you know, we hear the guy who drops off the archival footage. He's like, he's just logging. He's, like, doing this menial task of logging this material that he'll eventually realize is, like, the stuff he needs. Wonder why they have you down here. And so these moments where he's like, my genius is not being put to good use. Very Cyril Karn. We got this great email from listener Thomas, who says, who sort of like objected this.

He says one thing the Rebel Alliance and New Republic of the original trilogy demonstrated was ingenuity, resourcefulness, and the ability to see the good and seemingly irredeemable people, places and things. Although we're meant to understand that somehow the New Republic failed sufficiently in its mission for the dreary repetitions of the third trilogy, New Order, old problems, is inconsistent with that ethos for a figure like Dr. Pershing to be treated as he is in this episode. Why would they consign a genius medical researcher to a day job worthy of Henry Hill? And then, absent the kind of due process that makes a republic a republic, and given Pershing's apparent esteem among the rich and powerful of Corrassant, damage his brain. Why would they trash all the useful tools and technologies in the old ships of the empire?

Why would they assign essential restorative social work to the uncanny, unblinking eyes of a droid? This is a sloppy storytelling indulged in to set up a gratuitous gut punch. Star Wars works best at the boundary of realism and wonder. Here, the ostensible gritty realism, look like. the New Republic is bad in his own ways, actually undermines the feeling of credible, lived in world populated by people in whom we could see ourselves.

That was a genius of Lucas's invention. So, like, do you agree? I mean, I know you are not as down on this episode as I am, and that is great, but like, do you agree with Thomas that, like, like, no, okay, tell me why? Tell me why. I'm not saying that this was a perfect episode of TV. I don't.

I do not think that. I know that, yeah. I think that showing us the ways the New Republic failed, the mistakes that they made, in some ways because they were more like the enemy they overthrew than they thought, like using the Mineflyer, the mitigator, which we'll get to.

But in other ways because they were so afraid of that maybe being true that they were guided by their fear and their passive approach instead of leading actively. So this idea of like decommissioning the Alliance fleet

feels like very one to one with saying, well, we couldn't possibly take a scientific cloner and try to use his scientific brain for something else. We just have to make sure he doesn't do science because what if he did something terrible? That they act through fear. They lead through fear. And I would love to see that in the story more. So I kind of think it's important to show us things like this because how else will we understand

what went wrong? But what do you think, Joe? I'm curious. Well, okay. If I have to accept that the Luke Skywalker of Return of the Jedi can turn into the Luke Skywalker of the Last Jedi. two films that I love, two looks that I love, etc. Then I have to accept that a movement founded by Luke finding the good in Vader

could then be perverted and twisted into this republic that loses that ethos, that guiding ethos. You know what I mean? But when I was reading Thomas' email at first, I was like, yeah, like the foundation of this new era is the choice that Luke makes. to see the good invader. And so then for the bureaucracy to step in and pervert that does seem logical. Just like, again, it's sort of like the hymnboization of Mando. I'm like, how can they be so stupid? But I guess that's, you know, governments are stupid all the time.

The point you're making about it's less even maybe the intent and more the execution or the presentation of how it's rendered for us and manifest in the story. Because to that Luke point in particular, I think extending that to like, okay, Luke has an ideal. And we see that when you and I both, we've said it a million times,

we'll say it a million more, love Last Jedi. Because like, for various reasons that we don't have time to talk about today, but like to see someone confront the limitations of something they held dear is I think really compelling.

And also the fact that like one person is in a galaxy. And so like I like the idea that Leah is only one person, Mon Mothma, who, by the way, in Andor, we've had a great time seeing, like, wrestle and grapple with the treat-offs that are necessary to achieve an end. So if it's done well,

I think showing us more of that, that, like, seeing the good inside of someone isn't enough. Like, you can't run on that. You can't build on that as a core, but you need more mortar, if that's your brick. Oh, I love that.

Oh, I love that. I don't know how buildings work. Is that how buildings work? I was not to say, I don't know how governments work. Like, I think that's an easier story for me to lock into when it is inside an individual, a person. When it comes to systems, I think I need to see a little bit more. Like, I need to see the Republic the good that it can do or the politicians who are striving for the better ideology and not just the flaws in the system.

Because it can't just be that the Republic that is built here is just rotten from the core from day one. And that is the nuance that Andor is providing for us when they're showing us in the waning days of the Republican democracy leading into the full-blownese empire, how we're seeing characters like Monmothma and whatever, like still holding on to an ideology. And so again, if you're going to go all the way down to the bottom of the living waters of this idea of a political system, I think you need a little more time than this episode has to offer to show. show us that nuance, you know? Yeah, I agree. That's, that's, that's, that's, that's well put. We do have time to go to monument plaza, though. Always. It's date night. It's date night, Joe. Now, Keen-Woo's Pershing with some glowing ice pops and a just the tip, mountain touching moment and honestly, who among us? You're melting. Indeed. I did the one, the thematically, the interesting discussion here I thought was Pershing kind of being awed by

Corrassant scale. Like he talks about feeling insignificant and saying all these people working together to make something better. You're sort of like, is that what's happening here? But you feel that he longs for that to be true and longs to be a part of it, which is really the key thing. And Kane saying not much has changed other than taking down the cog wheels the way that she is working and working and working to get her claws into him there so that he will ultimately

fall for this entire pursuit. while touching the one piece of croissant, the peak of Umadi that sticks out from the ground, I liked that idea of like the entire, that nothing natural is there anymore, that evolution and advancement and pursuit, scientific, technological, societal, has blanketed the very face of the thing itself

to make it not only unrecognizable, but utterly inaccessible. That was a cool moment, I thought. And like that it's the peak of the mountain. Like how far down, like we have explored Corrason in many properties at this point. But like the key feature of Corrason is like the levels and the levels and the levels. And like it's a society built vertically. It's a society where like it's so stratified.

Corrason has always been a problematic location. You know what I mean? for in terms of the sort of almost cast system that exists there. Can I talk about music here? Do you want to talk about something else before we talk about the music in this scene? The only other thing I was going to say is that when Keene said following orders blindly is how we got in trouble in the first place, I was thinking again of bad batch because that's a very crosshair. Good soldiers follow orders. This is how we split from our family and our brothers' callback there.

So crosshair was on my mind. Listen, as he always is. Always. Great character. Hit me with the music. All right, we got a couple emails about this. I want to shout out one I got from someone I know, Palomime. Taylor Cole, who wrote it and said, not that you wouldn't otherwise talk about it, but I'm desperate for a breakdown regarding the use of John Williams' resistance theme from the sequel trilogy popping up in carnival music form during the county fair sequence of this week's Mando. As I mentioned before, I'm not great with breaking down music and score. So I will let one of our other listeners, Gary, shihani, in with their interpretation here. Gary wrote, I loved hearing March of the Resistance from the sequel trilogy featured in this episode, The Carnival-like rescoring of a once unyielding theme seems to foreshadow Pershing's brief but futile turn towards the light side and ultimate demise. It is also interesting that the scoring appeared to be almost dietic, as though a band of myth

musicians could be vibing to March of the Resistance just outside the shot. I love that. Amazing. Yeah. What did you think of this little, like, snatch of a John William's score here. You know? Again,

sequel trilogy, very top of mind this entire episode, which we will chat about more with Ben soon. But I do love the score snippets. And I love when the score across Star Wars, given how iconic it is, even compared to iconic bits of score elsewhere.

I mean, this is like, this is the peak of Umade when it comes to scoring as a thematic clue. is the top of the mountain. So anytime we hear, you know, if we hear binary sunsets, if we hear Leia's theme, anything we hear it makes us think, okay, well, what is that telling us about the character? What is that telling us about where we're heading? So it's a great observation. I love that. That score first comes up in one of my favorite moments from the Force Awakens when Po and the

rebel pilots show up at Takadana, right? And like, it's just a huge, cool, inspiring moment in Star Wars. And to hear it sort of, you know, like turned into a jingle is such an interesting choice here, you know. Inspiring swelling scores not present during our parole slash therapy session with the Amnesty, Troy, who is half humanoid and then just bolted as like a stool into. to the ground? We got two of these sequences. The second one was our opening clip today. What did you think of these conversations in general, Joe? Did this make you think of severance at all? It made me think of severance. I wrote severance in my notes here 100%. Yeah. Really, really, really good severance comp going on here. Again, we're treating, you know, to use a droid here rather than a person

is its own choice. We did get an email about like the shoddy mental health that is, that is provided for veterans after the war, like the comp there, that I thought that was interesting. But like this idea of like going through like an almost Turing test, like, you know, repetitive intake form underlines, I think that treatment of these

very human, very like, fragile, freshly reformed humans as like stormtrooper-like figures. You know what I mean? And I just, I think, I thought that part was really well done. Yeah. And like this is a test to see, is everything okay?

Are you a person who used to be in the empire, still someone we can incorporate into our society, but there's no ability to actually account for the fact that something might be wrong, that a person might need help. And so there's like a haunting quality of these conversations that, again, I think like you're the severance comp of, oh, you're supposed to be in the room now where you can talk and be free and exist inside of your feelings. And really something like utterly nefarious and horrifying is happening. One wrong word, you know what I mean?

Yeah, exactly. So when Pershing runs into Kane after that first session, it's like starting to, we feel the temptation setting in. Yeah, you know, my work can be used for good in the New Republic's hands. I just need to prove it. What do you need? We just need a mobile app station, some supplies, and a dash of treachery. We have an adventure ahead of us.

I thought it was very weird that Panmer. Pershing was not starting to get suspicious here. Very, very, very weird. Is he dumb? Like, this guy supposed to be a fucking genius. And he's like, why are you trying to lure me into resuming my

cloning? No, doesn't ask that. Not once. If Ilya kid had a mustache, she would have been twirling it. Like, what are we... What are we doing it? Yeah, it was almost as galling as as Bo saying, did you see anything alive and did not ask you a single follow?

follow-up question. Great stuff. I did think we glimpsed a moment of truth from Keane when she said, I have a lot to make up for. And there were a couple moments like that, including later when they're, when they're collecting lab materials inside of the abandoned destroyer saying, I never had a choice where we're seeing little bits, I think, of the truth within and trying to say, okay, well, what is this character's backstory? How we know, okay, you were on Curacao at the Academy. Like, why was this your life from the beginning. Are you related to a key character? It's happened in Star Wars before. Let's not rule it out. Joe, let's not roll it out. I just want to be ready. I want to be prepared. How dare you. I'm sorry. I am sorry. I do apologize for putting that out into the world,

that energy out into the world. We've mentioned Thrones a couple times. I was thinking of another iconic Thrones duo. Samuel Tarley and Ali, that fucker, Ali. I'm the best out of the boy. Younger Brun. It reminded me this the second parole droid Pershing exchange reminded me of the

Sam Ali Hardhome conversation where one of the characters thinks they're talking about one thing and the other one is like you have

just sanctioned this unholy thing that I am about to do. Our main objective is to help the republic, right? Correct.

And that supersedes everything else? It does. This is just like sometimes a man has to make our choices, choices that might look wrong to others. But you know our right.

And so to the disposal yards, we go. I don't mean to sound like a din jar and level droid racists, but I'm just here to tell you that, like, I feel like a human would have handled that better than that droid did. He would have been like, what are we talking about? I'm not blaming droids, but I am putting this on the New Republic Abnesty Program. We have some notes. Folks, we have some notes. What do you think of Penn Pershing looking at himself in the mirror?

Collar popped giving himself a pep doc that he's doing the right thing? You always feel good about yourself when you have to look at yourself in the mirror and say you're doing the right thing. It's the right thing to do. You know you're doing the right thing then, right? That's my morning routine before I get on the mic with you. You're helping. House of our! It's the right thing to do.

It's the right thing to do. I'll just say that this entire train sequence, nervous energy with fellow passengers, are they going to sniff us out? Oh, no. The ticket collectors are coming. let's hop from car to car, let's jump off into a soft landing. I was like, this was the part where I was just like, I can't believe we're watching this instead of Grogo. I'm sorry.

I'm interested in Ben Pershing. I'm interested in the cloning. I'm interested in the New Republic. This is, I'm sorry. No. No. But we make our way anyway to an abandoned vessel of war that we need to explore and take supplies from.

which made me think of a great arc for Bad Batch. I was like, check, awesome. And then a obviously horrifying and impossible to ignore a rise of Skywalker comp that I'm sure you were thinking about as well, Joe. I mean, but with like minus the cool pounding waves. You know what I mean? Like, we didn't even get that. Well, you love the ocean.

We've talked about this a lot. Do you love mind-flaying? Because this was the trap unfolding in real time. They escape with the lap. Don't worry about that noise. No, the noise is fine. Nick's more the noise. Do you love mind flaying?

Do you love mind flaying? The New Republic's there to collect Pem Pershing. And when we see him next, he's on a slab with a Mon Calamari New Republic official standing over him, gently telling him that they've found low voltage so it can be used to help soothe select traumatic memories. You'll see some pleasant colors here and light buzzing and experience a great sense of relief in no time at all. You're going to wipe my mind. Absolutely not. This isn't the empire sun. is used to heal. Joe, it's not a mineflyer. It's a 602 mitigator, non-invasive experimental treatment

recently approved for rehabilitation. Are you comfortable? Are you opting in to the New Republic? Hmm. Do I have a choice if I'm strapped to a table? Is my question? Also, listen, if you're going to use a fucking mind flare, first of all, it's wild that they can even call it a mind flare in these Stranger Things times. I know. Wild choice. But like, we've heard it mentioned before. Here it is. Do you not think that the protocols would be stricter, then let's just leave this fellow reformy in the room with the knobs? Yeah. Yeah.

Also, what is... I really, I just saw the part in our notes where you said, who is she Gideon's kid or something? You were going to jail for this. Valerie. Straight to jail. Bad, baby. I didn't really have a chance to think about it.

when in the lab room, they're talking about what they wanted to be when they grow up. I'm just saying. I'm just saying. Kane grabs the case full of the cloning equipment.

Yeah. You know, in a very, like, reluctant, like, Ilsa in the Last Crusade, like, grabbing the Grail Diary and backing away slowly

sort of movement. You know what I mean? Like, but does she get to keep that case? Like, they were not interested in her at all. So is the whole plot, I was just trying to figure out what her plan is, right? And I know you have these questions, too.

Is the plan to cook his noodle entirely? Is the plan? Turns that knob all the way up. Is the, but was the plan, like, I need him to show me what equipment we need to continue to do the work? Like, we don't need him, but we need to know what the equipment is. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me because, like, none. He, yeah.

Like, if you just, if you needed the equipment, then presumably you have another scientist. And if you have another scientist, shouldn't that scientist know what equipment? equipment they need. Or maybe you have a nervous lab assistant who's like, I vaguely know what I'm doing, but you got to get me the beakers. You got to get me the Pershing-approved beakers or like, I don't know what to do. If I could see a character say it was a trap in front of a Montcalamari, I'll give it a go.

If I get that kind of Easter egg, I'm happy to, I'm happy to see what I can manage. So is it to like cook his noodle entirely and reduce him to sort of like a drooling nothing in which case, I mean, I'll miss you, buddy and your cool sunglasses. Or is it to sort of shock him into further submission? Like, what are, what's the plane here? And I'm willing to be patient. I don't need to know the plan right away. I just don't think it's clear in this episode exactly what her, the, to what end is the

portrayal, you know? Yeah, I think we're meant to be wondering and speculating. I guess the thing that's clear is that the New Republic is using Empire Tech. and saying it's okay if we keep the knob low enough, which again is troubling. Your point about leaving, leaving cane there unattended is a great one, very, very damning.

I don't know what makes sense here. Like, I think given the explanation about select traumatic memories, now that was at the lower setting when our Mon Calamari friend was saying that, I guess we could read it as even at the high, higher setting, Kane is attempting to blast out the convert from Pershing, right, to go back to the episode title, blast out the memories from the amnesty program from being reformed

and take Pershing back to this more pliable figure who worked for Gideon, even when he knew it was wrong, who can be their scientific puppet again. but like if you're turning the knob all the way up, aren't you just melting his brain? Like, aren't we like beyond even Borgullet territory here into like what do you have on the other end of this? So then I get to like,

is she trying to eliminate him entirely because he's a liability? Because he's someone who knew what the, what Gideon was trying to do, what the Imperial Remnant was trying to do with cloning and that's a risk. But this is such a convoluted, like I don't understand the convoluting. So the only thing I could wrap my mind around

is she couldn't just kill him outright because she needed to maintain her cover inside of the amnesty program because she is going to be a key part of the new the first order rising from within. That's the only thing I can land on. Couldn't she just make it look like a suicide? Like there's ways to take him out that don't involve an elaborate train heist. Like that's such a weird way to take someone off the table. So maybe it's not that.

Maybe she's trying to radicalize him against the New Republic by saying, look what they did to you. Don't you want to challenge these monsters? They're just as bad. don't work for them. Don't give them your genius. But then again, that's where I get back

to what's left of his brain after this. And again, we are invited directly into an and or comparison because you mentioned Bork Gullet, but there's also, like, of course, the very disturbing... What?

Deception? Yeah, sorry, talk about Bix. I apologize. Dr. Gorsden Bix, right? Like, the torture of Bix and how that is, like, one of the most shocking and astonishing things we've seen

on television ever. And, like, hey, if you're listening to this, you haven't seen Andor, watch fucking Andor, right? There is a torture scene that is one of the wildest things I've ever seen and a torturer who is like so chilling. And so like to this, I mean, you know, I'm upset to see Pershing get the full flay as you put in our notes here. But like, but it's not, it just doesn't touch what happens to Bix, you know, and like, and like the aftermath of what happens to Bix. But I wanted to read this last email from last email for,

today from James about the mind flayer that I really liked. James wrote, I can't tell if this is by design or not, but the philony favreverse seems to consistently cast the empire as the apex of bureaucratic overreach and the New Republic as seemingly endless font of bureaucratic neglect. I would obviously take the sweet buzz from the not a mind flare over being tortured by the sound of children screaming as their planet is destroyed around them. Still, there's something about the unthinking, uncaring, and impersonal nature of a low-level shock treatment as a remedy for imperial indoctrionization that is deeply unsettling, no matter how sweet

the buzz is. The not a mind-flayer, mind-flayer, feels like a perfect encapsulation of the move from malignant care to benign neglect. It's the same machine, but it's been dialed down to have just a little more than no effect. What does this say about the New Republic? And I think that idea, again, to think about systems of government, again, not my specialities, so forgive me. But like, I think this idea of like the empire trying to have like broad iron fist imperial choke, the choke of the fist on the throat that we hear about a lot and or control over a galaxy, including the outer rim, et cetera, et cetera, versus a republic being ill-equipped to. to operate with that much control.

You know what I mean? We're not going to do that. We're not going to take you by the throat. And so then weird shit starts to happen, especially in the outer rim. You know, so it's interesting. I'm not, that was not a pro-empsia statement, by the way, just to be clear. You love the empire. Your new empire.

You love benign neglect, which I guess gets us to Palpi. My allegiance is to the Republic, to democracy. To democracy. Oh, great stuff. I'm always on Mustafa with you in my heart, Joe. Always. But we do have to talk about Palpatine for a minute. We do.

From Pershing to Palpi, it is time to bring on our palp Ben Limburg. All right. We're chatting about cloning. That means we're chatting about lore. That means perhaps regrettably, perhaps excitingly, mileage may vary. We're about palpi, folks. Buckle up.

It's time for our lore look with Ben Limburg, because we are a clan of three. I remember it this time. Yeah. I remember the Ben was coming. Somehow. It only took me three weeks. Benjamin Lindbergh returned.

Thorowitz Lindberg returned. Here we are. Okay. Ben. Cloning. We got to talk about it. Big cloning up. Before we get into what the future might hold, what you want the future to hold,

take us into the past. Give us a little lower download. on the complete cloning history inside of Star Wars, or, you know, just some select strands if you want to make a little strand cast here. Up to you. Yeah, it's surprisingly compact, actually. There isn't really a lot of ancient cloning war

when we talked about space whales. We went back millennia, but with cloning, not so much. It kind of begins and ends with the Skywalker saga, essentially. There are not really any kind of confirmed specific cases of cloning that preceded the prequel. So if you've seen the prequels, if you're familiar with Camino and the clone troopers,

then you're kind of almost up to speed on the history of cloning in Star Wars. So that makes our job easy from a lore perspective. As Dexter Jeter said, they're cloners. Good ones, too. My God, I am thrilled. Big moment for Joe. Well, you know I love the Dexter Jester scene, but also what the listeners don't know is that our.

Ben is currently sporting like a beautiful red beard. I actually didn't know you had like... Positively Kenobi-esque. That much ginger in your bloodline. I know. It only comes out in my facial hair. But I should have, yeah, I should have quoted Obie instead, I guess. Clon is, are they friendly?

Wonderful. Excellent. This could be the whole pod. Love loving this. Just reenect the Dexter diner scene just for the rest of the podcast. Sure. Sorry to derail Ben since you've just got here. I just wanted, I promised Mallory that I would mention this that I met at, in Austin,

Texas. I met a listener of the podcast who actually happens to Worth South by, and his name is also Austin, and he also has a resplendent red beard, that he loves Attack of the Clones. And he's like, I love your Boba coverage. I love your Obie One coverage. Your Attack of the Clown slander will not stand. Some of us, there are dozens of us who love this movie. And I asked him why.

And, you know, he said something, something. Yada, Yada, Detective Kanobe, yada, yada. So, Austin, if you're listening, you are represented here by Ben's Dexter Jesterlov. Yeah. Did anyone slice a pear midair at the end of that conversation or no? No midair pair slicing? I don't think there were anyone consumed any fruit in Austin, Texas, starting South by Southwest. Is Koso a fruit?

Yeah. So because there's not that much detail to the cloning, that's why Star Wars is going. in a great lengths to lay it all down here, really, which is, I think, most of what we're going to be talking about, because really, you heard a little bit from Dr. Persh here, Penn himself, talking about... Stop. We have to stop you again already. It's just going to be that kind of pod today.

Perch. Perch! I feel close to him. We spent so much time with him this week. I feel like we're on an abbreviated surname basis. Okay. This is just a lot to process in real time. You say like Canobe, Skywalk?

Like, Obie. This is a very CR thing I'm doing here, I guess, with Persh. This seems like something Chris would do. But we heard from Penn, if I could call him Penn. Is that okay? Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Penn.

I don't want to shortchange him. He's highly educated. But he was talking a little bit in this episode about the difference between his work and the work of the Caminoids, right? Or the Caminoids. And he said that cloning. with the Camino method, you could just endlessly or almost endlessly duplicate one clone from a single genetic strand. So you just have the one strand of grade A jango DNA and you can just

pump out a bunch of clones from that. But his work, which sort of sets up the sequel trilogy, it sounds like, is trying to advance beyond that, trying to combine multiple strands. He said to create replicas that incorporated the best genetic attributes of both donors, which leads to the concept of the Strandcast that has been mentioned on the Mandalorian before. Again, very much leading into the sequel trilogy and Palpi trying to develop a body that will not rot, which he doesn't do with great success, as we learn, but he's trying to develop some sort of hybrid clone that can contain his spirit, his dark side energy without rotting from the core. Is that, so is Strandcast like the name for the kind of cloning?

Like, is that what we're saying? Strandcast means? Yeah, it's like the byproduct of this hybrid method, like Snoke is a strand cast, right? And Palpi's son, quote unquote, is a strand cast, right? So it's like splicing Palpi genetics and genes and DNA with something more hearty that could perhaps sustain his dark side energy. So like taking that high M count from our sweet baby Grogues and meshing it up with a palpy template.

Guys, what could possibly go wrong, first of all? I'm sure it'll all be fine. It'll lead to great movies. When it comes to like sort of trying to retcon or retrofit a regrettable move made by one of the film trilogies, I think we can look no further than M count as like one of our favorite versions of that. So let's see if the cloning retrofit that they're doing here is that successful. This is what I wanted to talk to you about because the part of me that enjoys analyzing intellectual properties as if their sports franchises is just really fascinated by the dichotomy

in how Disney has handled and is still handling with care the sequel trilogy. And I'm very curious about what you two think about this, because on the one hand, when it comes to stories set in that time period, Lucasfilm has treated the entire sequel trilogy like a super fun site. It's just like a toxic, contaminated region that they have just roped off until it's less radioactive until the discourse dies down, which it never seems to do. So it's been more than three years since the great cinematic experience, The Rise of Skywalker, which we enjoyed in theaters. And there are no other prominent projects set in that same time period or later. And so Disney developed this whole new cast of Ray and Finn and Po. It's the new core. And then the vibes were so bad by the end that we haven't

seen them again. And who knows, maybe we won't until the kids who were 12 when they saw those movies are glued up and nostalgia sets in like it did with the prequels. And they're like, and pod racing is cool. Yeah. We love Pod Racing. We love Attack of the Clothes. Yeah. Right. So basically after the backlash to the Last Jedi and the Rise of Skywalker, different kinds of backlash, agreed, but Rise of Skywalker had the disappointing box office, too. So the whole franchise has basically just backed away like Homer Simpson and the GIF, right? Just like rewound decades or centuries to the vicinity of the other two trilogies or even the High Republic era, just these periods where you can call in Luke and Leah and Artu and Yoda and Obie.

on Invader, and it's just sort of safe ground again. It's like the message Dave Bowman gives Hal in the sequel to 2001. All these worlds are yours except the sequel era. Attempt no landing there. I think your larger point does stand where they're like, um, are the, I think they took the bad lesson for Rise of Skywalker, which is just like more Skywalker, right? You know what I mean?

Like more familiar territory. I have heard from, you know, You know, this is classic Joanna. Many people are saying, like, I have heard that they are actively trying to develop something where they could use some of those sequel characters. So they are, like, working on it, how far, how long they take to let that dust settle, to your point? I don't know.

But I know it's something like they don't want to just, like, scrap Ray forever or anything like that. Like, they are actively working on it. But we are in a cordoned off time right now. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, Fabro was talking about that. He alluded to that in an interview earlier this month about ongoing discussions about what will come after the sequel trilogy, but just nothing announced yet. And yet, on the other hand, both of the Star Wars shows that are airing right now, including The Mandalorian, which is basically the foundation of the franchise at this point, are devoting a ton of time and attention to setting up the sequels, right?

You have tons of foreshadowing of the first order and clues about cloning in the Mandalorian, a lot of cloning connections in the Bad Batch. You have the origins of Luke's Academy and Book of Boba. You have to figure Asoka will continue that trend. And the sequel trilogy was so hazy on some pretty important plot points. Like, wait, how is the Republic different from the resistance? Somehow, Ben. Somehow, right.

Why is Leia on her own without allies? and what were the Knights of Wren again? And of course, how did Palpatine return? So some of these are questions that maybe could have been answered in the opening crawls, but a lot of it was left to the imagination. And so now, even as Star Wars has sort of backed away from the smoldering ruins of the sequel trilogy, one of the main missions of Star Wars storytelling right now seems to be laying the groundwork for those movies as a way of explaining them or justifying them or justifying them or just making them part

of a more cohesive whole. And if you watch the hour-long Disney Plus documentary about the making of the book of Pobofet, which I assume everyone listening to this has, I mean, really, why wouldn't you? You'll hear Dave Filoni describe his and Favreau's philosophy. He said that they're trying to make this feel like one big connected galaxy. That's what Star Wars is where all the stories come together.

And since the Mandalorian premiered, he and Favs have been pretty clear. about their intention to bring the sequel trilogy into the folds, you know, kind of kicking and screaming. But in 2019, even before Rises Skywalker came out, Fabro said, what could happen in the 30 years between celebrating the defeat of the empire and then the First Order? You come in on Episode 7, the First Order, not just starting out, they're pretty far along. So somehow, there's that word again, somehow, things weren't necessarily managed as well as they could have been if the galaxy ended up in hot water again like that. And he's returned to that theme. So is what we say to Steve at the end of every single recording.

Somehow. Somehow. We missed our runtime again. Somehow. Buddy boy. But you can say out. I could be causing that right now. But he's kind of returned to that theme.

So in 2021, again, Fabro said, the Mandalorian inherits a great deal from existing Star War stories. And when I write, that context is always a consideration. It became clear that within the established continuity, certain things were likely to transpire. He also said, Dave Flonnie and I are in constant discussion regarding how each story choice is impacted by and would impact existing Star Wars material. Last year, same theme. There's a lot of preparation done in broad strokes with how do these storylines that we've established culminate, but we're doing that within the confines and parameters of what's preexisting in canon. And then last quote, I promise, just this month discussing the sequel trilogy, Favs again, there are certain markers that we have.

It's almost like studying ancient history where you kind of know a few things that happen, but there's a lot of murkiness in between, and we just don't have archaeological evidence in the real world to know exactly what happened. So we kind of connect the dots. So that's what's going on here. There's a lot of dot connecting. Valerie, it's like making faces I've literally never seen her make in my entire life. I value the ties between trilogies.

I mean, one of the things I missed in the sequel trilogy was a feeling. of connection to the prequels, plus Faloni's animated work made the prequels more meaningful to me. That's what I was going to say. Yeah, like, this is what Folony has been doing from the jump. Like, when you watch Clone Wars, clone Wars is meant to retrofit sort of some of those gaps in specifically Anakin storyline where we're like, you know,

your mileage, obviously, if you're someone named Austin, who works in Austin, Texas, or whatever, like, your mileage may vary on the success of the prequels, But for a lot of people, and we've talked about this before, but for a lot of people, that Anakin Skywalker arc does not work and does not make sense. And we feel like we don't fully invest or see the nuance changes, little baby steps on the way to the fall, the way that we want it to feel like a gradual frog and a pot of water on the boil sort of thing. And when you and when you shore that up with all these episodes, you know, and I know plenty of people listening to podcast. have not watched the animated series, but when you watch the Clone Wars and you get to see Anakin as a war hero,

as, you know, a mentor, as all this other stuff, it just really deepens your understanding of, your affection for Anakin. So then when you go back and rewatch the prequels, you're thinking about that animated version of him

as you watch the fall happen, and it's just that much more tragic and emotionally fulfilling. So, like, this has been, the Faloni prompt, you know, from the start. And so, and then, you know, you just came up with, like, a great timeline of quotes. But, like, the very first, when the Mandalorian premiered, I know we were all not working together necessarily, but we all had this experience of, like, the force healing in Rise of Skywalker and the Force Healing in the first season of Maneloran.

Same week. Same exact week. And so this is, it's always been in dialogue with that. Just like right now it's actively in dialogue with something we actively, all right, I'm sorry, I'll speak for myself. I actively dislike about the sequel trilogies, whereas like Ray Force Healing, Ben, that's great. I love that. That's fine. I don't think you have to say, I'll speak for myself when you're talking about the Palpatine aspect.

I think that's a shared feeling. Yes. Yeah. So I don't discount Floni's ability to do that again, do the same for the sequels. Although I think it's harder this time because he's not working within the. same time frame and with the same characters. You know, it's not like he's taking the sequel trilogy characters and making us care about them more. He's just kind of laying the groundwork that leads to them. It's like unless we get a Rise of Skywalker special edition where suddenly

Dr. Pershing is a blue-glowy guy just off to the side of Palpatine's rotting clone corpse, I don't know how much more it will make me care. I hope that it will. Like, I will always love the majority of the Skywalker saga. But if Star Wars is trying to move on from that now and not be bound by it, then it seems kind of counterproductive to still be so governed by it in its storytelling. Like, are we throwing good Star Wars stories after bad in an attempt to retcon or make us care about things that we didn't initially care about? Does it make sense to cut away from Mando and Grogu and Boca Tan to spend 45 minutes with

Persh foreshadowing the first order and Palpatine. Because ultimately we know the end point for Palpatine unless he somehow returns again. Do we fit? You can never count them out. Be careful. Yeah. But we think we know the endpoint for Palpatine and the first order, whereas we don't know the endpoint for Mandelor or Mando or Grogu.

And this show has made us care about those characters and their concerns so much that you have to question at some point, is the show juggling? too many things. Does it have too many missions? It's like the original characters that it established that it made us care so deeply about also porting in the animated characters into live action who we care about deeply. Not every viewer does. But then also, you know, trying to go back and bring those characters forward and then look forward to the sequel trilogy and go back to retroactively make that make sense. There's a lot going on here all of a sudden. I think they've been what you're identifying about the sheer almost.

amount of time, which as you noted, Favs keep citing, you know, I've got three decades to play in, right? Is both the potential worry that that very keen, does everything always have to be about Palpatine and the Skywalker's all the time, anxiety that I think the bulk of the fan base had coming out of a very bad movie in Rise of Skywalker is going to then always be this like, maybe be increasingly less phantom limb as we move through these stretches of stories. But I also think it's the opportunity because given that wide swath of time, it doesn't have to be everything. And so I think that last thing you said about the other characters, Mandelor, the other lore, our central duo,

our covert, our clan, mudhorn, all of it, it feels like a balance question more than anything. And I think that's why even like this episode, we won't, here I will speak for myself, know totally how to feel about until we get much further into not only this season, but probably the series and probably this larger stretch of the interconnected timeline and understand how much time we are spending on the first order. I don't want everything to be about Palpatine, obviously. I do really want to better understand how we got to the Sith Eternal and everything that happened on Exigal.

I am genuinely excited to see how Theron. connects more centrally to everything that happens on that front. And I think that the cloning point, what Joe, what you mentioned about the force healing overlap was on my mind as well. I think like the strand cast, you know, we hear Mando say in season one to Quill that he thinks Grogu's a strand cast. And we hear Quill say, no, you know, let me tell you about my time on the gene farms. I don't think he's a clone. Like this has been part, obviously when he, when Din rescues Grogu from your guy, Perch in chapter three, he's horrifyingly under a bunch of beeps and boobs on a medical table after his blood has been extracted. When we are in the secret lab on Navarro in the fourth episode of season four and we discover the Pershing hologram, it's about the failed attempt to put Grogu's blood that high, high, tasty, tasty M count into the body that they were working with.

This has been a part of the Mandalorian from the very beginning. Absolutely. This is why there's a bounty on Grogo in the first place. Exactly. This is not... This is not... This is plot. It's not, you know,

subplot or whatever. It's also, I think, the reason why Grogu is in trouble, why Mando has to come rescue him. Like, you need some reason to put him in peril so that he could be rescued so that we care about him. This is the answer that they came up with.

But the reason I've mentioned that is because, like, while the story has widened to be more about the role of a foundling, the nature of the creed, what it really means to be a Mandalorian, when do those fractures turn to alliances, and when do those alliances maybe crumble back into fractures. And that's something that I think we're all really interested in. The cloning and the path to Palpatine has always been there.

And I actually think it would be weird if they just ceased that. And it had been part of two stories of the show and then just wasn't there. So that's why, again, I think it's the balance. It's like, I don't want to leave our main duo for too long to hang out with your guy, Persh, candidly. But I am interested in fleshing out those stretches of the canon. I think that if it's done with deafness and care, it can not only work, inside of this show, but hopefully really heightened and enhance our understanding of a big stretch

of the canon. And I think the first order is, I maybe feel that even more with the first order than with the cloning plot. Like, yeah, I agree. I want to know how the first order came into power. I want to know what went so wrong with the new republic. And so the glimpses we get here are intriguing. And I think that that's because the first order plot is leading towards like, how do we get a hucks? How do we get a, you know, like, how does all of that happen? I love that's my guy. Love hucks. Right. And I think that's my guy. Love Hux. Same.

Joe, we've never really got to talk about Hux. If we have opportunities, I will be fucking thrilled. We just do like a live watch of the Last Jedi, you and me. Anyway,

Hux and his canonical cat. But I think that like, um, I think that what's really fascinating to me, because yeah, the first order is not careening towards a moment in the franchise

where we hear fucking somehow Palpatine return. You know what I mean? Like the cloning thing is careening towards something that sends shivers down our spine and not in the good way. You know what I mean? I think what's really interesting, and I know that there's plenty of people

who are listening to this, who are watching The Mandalorian, who are not watching Bad Batch. But like the whole premise of Bad Batch is further exploration of cloning. The Bad Batch are a batch of clones, you know, and we're like, we're interested in Camino, we're interested in all this sort of stuff on that show. And so that's not a, I don't know the ratings numbers, but I don't think that's like a widely, widely, widely, hugely, hugely, hugely watched show in the Star Wars canon. It's a fun show. We like it. But like, but for this week's episode to be so cloning focused, for the bad batch to be so cloning focused, for them to be running at the same time,

you really just in an extra way feel Lucasfilm's foot on the pedal of this is a story. We feel very compelled to explain. I know it's not a popular moment to invoke the deft guiding hand of Feige and Marvel. The Marvel. machine given the current state of things over there. But I think the best case scenario is like a point you make a lot about Marvel Joe, which is when they can identify something that didn't work and then figure out in other properties how to make it more effective retroactively. If that's what happens here, I think that's a win for us as Star Wars fans and for the franchise. I think that if it feels like we're constantly being drudged through reminders of the thing that didn't work without that enhanced

understanding, then it won't feel that way. And we won't know until we see it. But I don't know. I I think that the bad batch points make me think of more than anything else is just how often I really enjoy a story that philony shaped, to your point earlier, Joe, in large part to flesh out a stretch of the timeline where we knew a couple of things but didn't really know how they connected to each other. So that makes me excited and the excitement. It's my own strand cast of emotion. It's like the excitement template and then just a little dash of trepination. That's where I am with it. I think the rise of the first order is potentially interesting in a way that the cloning plot point is not necessarily. If the cloning plot line is largely, JJ thought it would be cool to bring Palpi back.

I don't know how much depth or richness or nuance there is to it. And even in the Star Wars Rise of Skywalker novelization, they kind of lay out basically how it worked. If you really want to answer the how in the somehow, you can get some details there. But I think there are interesting things that you could say about government. government and politics and, you know, things that Andor has wrestled with that Mando was trying to wrestle with this year, this week about the rise of the first order, that shedding some light on how did we go from this happy ending to exactly the same sort of saga playing out again, other than, again, JJ just kind of trying to replicate the formula, but it can be more than that.

And I think it is interesting to trace that potentially. And I have no objections to ties between Trologies. I like that. I think that's a feature, not a bug. There were people who didn't like Luke coming back in the season two finale because they thought, oh, I thought we were done with the Skywalker saga. I thought this was its own thing. And here comes Luke. But I love that. And I thought it made total sense in the story and this time frame that Luke would be the one to show up, that he would be the one to mentor or try to mentor Grogo. All of that made sense to me. So was it fan service to some extent. Sure, I guess so, but it made complete sense to me. Whereas some of the cloning stuff, like if it's on the periphery, okay, kind of interesting just to leave some breadcrumbs here or there.

But if it takes center stage the way that it did this week, then I could see that potentially becoming a problem because ultimately we care about Grogu and Mando and Bo and Mandelor and what's going on with them. And as you said, that's always interacted with these ongoing storylines. But earlier this month, the Hollywood reporter asked Foloni what Groku's doing during the sequel trilogy, right? And he didn't answer, of course, but what he said is, I've learned that there's expansive room in this galaxy for us to tell stories and have characters doing things. It's possible that it would never even have to cross over with what we saw in the sequel trilogy if the story has us somewhere else. So, yeah, because they're kind of hemmed in by other trilogies, they have to respect that and they have to nod to that at times. but also Groga doesn't show up in the sequel trilogy, right?

And so because he doesn't directly intersect with it, you don't necessarily have to have him so tightly interwoven with it here unless it serves his story and this story, which I think it largely has up until now. So I just hope that that continues to be the case. Well, he's like, have you heard of the outer rim? We just put characters there if we need to put them somewhere. Yeah.

Protect Grogo at all costs. I'm very worried. I'm concerned. I just need all of these would-be first-order stooges to keep their filthy hands off of my beautiful baby boy. Keep him safe. That's all. That's what I want out. Out of my Star Wars just, I just want to watch Grogu hang out, eating macaroons and being happy.

Is that a show? Grogu is like the centerpiece. He's the thing that ties all the trilogies together, potentially, right? because we know that we're going to go back in time to see his flashbacks to Order 66, the prequel era, and we know that those high M counts are maybe playing some part in Palpatine returning. So he's sort of at the center of it all. And maybe there is a way. Eat shit, Skywalker saga. We brand the Skywalker saga as the Grogu Saga. And maybe there's a way that works out where when it's all said and done, we look back

and think this was actually planned perfectly from the start and all the creators were on the same page. And they knew where this was going all along. If Fabro and Flonny could pull that off, that would be quite an accomplishment. That's great. It seems really likely. And I'm sure no one will have any complaints or questions or notes. And everyone will agree and be super happy. Yeah.

I can't wait to talk about it with you both when that happens. I mean, we knew how that went when it was like J.J. Ryan, JJ. Like, that was a perfect unification of vision and clarity in storytelling. So, yeah. This baby belongs to them cloners. Incredible. No notes, Ben. It's unbelievable.

Great talking to you all. You're the best, Ben. Bye. Bye. Okay. From Strandcasts to Easter eggs, that's the egg. You got the egg. What was your favorite Easter egg from this episode?

There were a lot of them in this 59-minute behemoth, Joe. What's number one on your list? What's the peak of Easter egg Mote for you? I mean, I think it has to be the opera house. Yeah. I think that was a really cool choice. Of course. Yeah.

Yeah. What else could it possibly be? What about you? You anything else? I guess I'll just, for the sake of variance, just say the Zillobese, the Malisterre thing we already talked about earlier. But of course it was the opera house. How can it not be?

It's a trap. That's delightful. You know what I'll say, actually? How about this? All the red, the color code. We like to track color coding, all the red for Kane. We got, when Pershing mentioned the yellow travel biscuits, Kane said that she liked the red, she's got the red pop when they're out on their stroll of Monument Plaza.

It's just it's Star Wars. It's a lot of Sith color coding. We must take note. We must. Not great. Not great. Speaking of things we must take note of. This is a surprise for me.

I have no idea what's coming. It's time. to head to Wigwatch Corner. Do you wear wigs? Wow. Wow. Mixing it up today. Dominic Monaghan.

Classic. Iconic. Iconic. Lord of the Ring special features moment. Okay. Yeah. What do you get? Rest and peace, the Boketan wig, which we did not see any of in this episode, horrifying.

I don't know any great wigs of. I just do want to, I don't want to shout out Kitty O'Brien's hair, which I thought. looks really cool. Like I thought I loved her hair. And if anyone is like helmet ready, it is Ely Cain. Like that, that hair, which is crisply gelled, military regimented into place, looks great and would do well under a helmet. Bo's lob, her like beautifully flat-ironed long bob.

I'd say it's probably not looking great. You know, 48 hours of that helmet or however long. she's had it on. So, yeah, that's a wig corner. Boy, I mean, hopefully we'll get to see characters hair in the future on this show and keep wigwatch going. We'll see. Be nice.

We'll see. It's time for our next corner. Coo Corner. Coo. Babel. Gurgle. Netflix subtitle award. Worth the weight.

What did you have this week, Joe? Gray matter. Sizzles slowly. revolting but vivid. I didn't have the usual treasure trove of actual Grogu subtitles to pull from this week, so I'm going to honor the actual intention of the exercise and make up one that I think should have been there, which is Grogu communicates with intention, clarity, and grace as his human stare befuddled, first into the abyss and then into enemy fire.

You can see that popping up on the screen, right? Why not? I have to say, I think if Grogu, like, we're talking about cults. If Grogu were to start, sign me up, his own cult, you'd be in immediately. Pass the cold. You were like the Paz-Visla of, you would just be like right there. It was the, it was the, it was the way you put grace in there. I stand by it.

Okay. I stand by it. Secret force user. Maybe a prediction that you'll stand by. Love it. Steve, you're a treasure. Well, I think, given all the Sith coding that you just laid out, it has to be cane, right? Yeah.

Also, maybe someone's secret child, which usually connects to the force in some way. I just, I'm afraid. I'm concerned. I just want in the future, when we're back on tattooing, And Ilya is burying her Sith saber in the sand. And someone says, what's your name? And she goes, Ilya. It's your last name.

Gideon? Like, I don't know. Oh, my God. I will just say, if you're right and I'm not actually predicting that. To be clear, I don't actually believe it. If you're right, I will find you an exotic ice ring you've never had and send it to you. but I really hope you're wrong. Thank you.

Same. All right. Anything else? I'm excited to see, like, just because I didn't like this episode, doesn't mean I'm not excited to see what's to come, obviously, on the season of the Mandalorian. And maybe we're past the sort of, like, slice and dice era and maybe what's going to go forward. And I'm excited. I mean, like the directors we have coming up, it's Carl Weathers episode next, I believe. Yeah, it's Carl Weathers next.

And then Peter Ramsey, who did Into the Spider-Verse, great, really excited for that one. Bryce is coming back. I always love a Bryce episode. And then Rick is doing the final two. So, like, you know, though if you would ask me before the season, what's going to be your favorite? I might have said the Lee Isaac Chunk episode, and yet here we are. So who's to say? But I'm excited to see what comes next.

And I like that I have no idea, you know? I have no idea what the shape of the season's going to be. Same, other than more helmets. Cobb Vance when. All right, friends. We have been redeemed. So that means it's time to wrap today's podcast. Thank you to Amnesty, senior producer, SP1, Steve Allman, for producing this episode.

Arjuna Ram Gapal for his additional production work on this episode. And Jomea Adelan, first work on the social for this episode. Remember, pop over to the presentation. St.HTV feed for our yellow jackets chats next week on the ring or verse front. Midd edition, Shazam on Monday, midnight boys, pew, pew, pew. Episode four, Mando, instant reaction on Wednesday, House of our Mando deep dive on Friday. Until then, remember, we like the red ones. What's the difference between butter and butter made from real California dairy?

It's the real California farm families behind it. Real people. Real care. Real intention. Why? Because real matters. So whether you're pouring milk, melting cheese, or just grabbing one more spoonful of yogurt, keep it real. Look for the seal. Real California milk by real California farm families.