The Ringer-Verse - The ‘Mandalorian’ Season 3, Episode 6 Instant Reactions. Plus, ‘Across the Spider-Verse’ and More! | The Midnight Boys

Episode Date: April 5, 2023

Droid rights forever! The Midnight Boys are here to discuss the latest episode of ‘The Mandalorian’ and break down the mystery laid out for Din and Bo (04:10). Later they discuss the latest trailers for ‘Spider Man: Across the Spider-Verse,’ ‘Secret Invasion,’ and ‘Blue Beetle’ (68:14). Hosts: Van Lathan, Charles Holmes, Jomi Adeniran, and Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It's no secret the NFL has a problem with race. Think Colin Kaepernick. Think Brian Flores. But this isn't a new problem. It's one that started as far back as the 1930s, with a ban on black players in the NFL, with a past that informs the present. Blackballed is a new mini-series podcast from The Ringer

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Beth and Rip are back in a new series, Dutton Ranch. Kelly Riley and Colehouser returned, and this time they're taking on Texas. As Beth and Rip build a future together, peace will have to wait as they face corruption, danger, and a ruthless rival ranch, willing to protect its secrets at all costs. Legacy is a beautiful thing, but only if it survives. Dutton Ranch starring Colehouser, Kelly Riley, Annette Benning and Ed Harris now streaming on Paramount Plus.

Into the Ringiverse. This is, of course, The Ringers' Nexus podcast fee for all things. fandom. We are. Jomi, Mr. Popular, Gitterrand.

Everyone loves them. Nobody hates him. That's not true. We are. Steve, the architect, Alman, the Tinker, and the builder of things.

We are. Old Man, Van. He of the receding two weeks away, from being the resurgent hairline. Oh, my God. Oh, yeah. It's coming.

I'm going to be wearing hats for a week. And you guys, my shit, will be down here. And we are, go, baby Chuck, the 24-carat-closer, Momo's favorite midnight boy. Together,

we are known as other midnight boys. A-de-oo! I was trying to go! All right. You have to follow us on socials. Insta, Twitter, Facebook, TikTok. I would say save Jomi's job,

but that's not a concern anymore. Still a lot of game left, man. Still a lot of game left. Jomey's job received. That mother is popping up in everything. Jomey's everywhere. Jomey is the Nick Fury. No, he's the Wong of the Ring.

He is the Wong of the Ringer. Jomey is the Wong of the Ringer. Every time you see Wong, it's like, oh, hey, hi, Wong. You know, other people come and you might not like them. You know what I mean? like the rest of us have arcs, and sometimes people are down on us.

Oh, like, why did Tony do that? Oh, my God. Why did this person do that? You know what I mean? Like, for example, Charles is the Rocket Raccoon of the Ring. The Rocket Rink. You like that. Y'all killing me off in the next episode?

That's him, right? I'm just playing. I'm just playing. Charles is the Loki of the Ringer. Okay? Started off as a villain. Now, that's perfect. Don't get me wrong.

Like, he started off as a villain. Now everybody loves him. Okay? But Jomi, Wong, always love Jome. Okay. Our Mando coverage is in full effect. Friday. House of R.

Deep dive. Mando. Season three, they're doing it every Friday. You say this every podcast. You do not want to miss Joe and Mao, Mal and Joe. Shout to Joe for answering my call early in the morning yesterday to talk about succession. Me and Joe just chop it up. Two pals.

Like two pals. In a couple of years, me and Joe are just going to start. our own thing. We're just going to be Joe and Van at the movies. You know what I mean? A completely separate pot.

And on Wednesdays the Midnight Boys will be giving you our instant reactions to the latest episodes of the Mandalorian, which is testing us. On Thursday, tomorrow, we're going to be back. Super Mario Brothers

movie. Swing your arms from side to side. Come on. It's time to go. When I do it, I I'm pandering, you know what I'm saying? But he can just, he can just do it like for fun, you know what I'm saying? You guys aren't the same? I'm not asking for subs, Jomi. I'm just saying a little.

Jomi, what, what do you, it's not the same. Jomi, it's not the same. It's not, it's not. I'm not asking you guys to click and subscribe. But while I got you guys here, remember to follow like a subscribe. No. See what I'm saying? See what I'm saying?

You're every day with that. All right, on today's episode, we begin with our reaction to the sixth episode, season three of the Mandalorian. time to have some fun. And later, we're going to be discussing new trailers for Across the Spider-Verse, Blue Beetle, and Secret Invasion. A lot of midnight fun from your midnight boys today.

Let you guys know, we're spoiling everything. The entirety of all the books you've read, the comic books you've talked about, the movies you've seen and the shows you've watched. Steve, give me my spoiler warning. We're getting ready to talk about Mando. You're listening to a reaction podcast. The spoilers are coming.

Before we can talk about anything, you have to know what we're talking about. The only person that can do that is Charles. You put you in the know with the Midnight Manifest. Chuck, take away. All right, and this is your Midnight Manifax for the Mandalorian season three, Chapter 21, Guns for Hire, directed by Bryce Dallas Howard, rated by Jean Bevro.

We begin on a corn vessel that's stopped by Bocatan's, old mandolorean covert night owls, now led by Axe Wows. These Mandalorians are as the episode title foreshadows, guns for hire, and they're tasked with bringing back a Mon Colomari elite from his foreign partner. And the president, Din and Bo travel to Plaza 15, where her mandolarians are currently operating. Before Din and Bo can see them, their whisked away to the city's capital, where Captain Bombadier and his wife ask if they can help root out the cause of malfunctioning battle droids throughout

the city. Dent agrees when the captain says that he will back Mandalor's entry into the new republic. Then a procedural unfolds leading to the revelation that Hellgate, who's in charge of overseeing the droids, is actually a separatist and is responsible for the malfunctions. Once this is taken care of, Bow and Din visit the night owls, both challenges acts of combat for leadership and wins. Then, to sweeten the pot, Din relinquishes the dark saber to Bo, telling the night owls that she won it fair and square when she defeated the enemy that defeated him on Mandelor. And that has been your midnight manifest for Chapter 21 guns for hire. Okay, so instant reactions. Wait, okay, just wait a second, guys.

Hold on for a second. Just wait. All right. Just relax, okay? Because see what's happening now? Like, what's happening now is not constructive, all right? Yeah. It's Chuck's time.

We ain't even done shit yet, bro. It's the snickering that everybody can hear as they listen to the podcast. Charles, simple question. Your thoughts. on the episode. Shit's cook, bro. I don't know what to tell y'all. This episode about to turn me back to the old me.

Fuck out of here, bro. What are we doing? What are we doing? This shit was booty butt cheeks, okay? Fucking, we had Baby Yoda force flipping into Lizzo's arms. We are quite literally one week away from fucking Lil Nas X and Halsey being the next Jedi in a galaxy far far away. Fuck this shit.

Like respect to like every single creator, I love the first two seasons of the Mandalorian. All of this stuff is hard to make. But I have to be real. What are we doing? What are we doing here? I think the ending of this episode made me rethink this entire series because now I'm like, what was the point of everything? What's the point of Dinn having the Dark Sabre? What is the point of Dinn and Grogu even being in the show anymore? If it's not even going to be about them, it's just, what are we fun? fucking doing right now.

Wow. Sorry, sorry. I appreciate. It's Chuck Wagon time. It's the 24-karranted time and you just fucking close down to Mandelairee. Jomey, your thoughts. Yeah, you know me.

I love to be positive. No matter what, I love to be, you know, see the good and everything and, you know, try and bring light to where there's darkness. Arjun, are you there? Hey, can you do me a favor and can you read the text message I sent you at 1 o'clock

a.m. last night. You said, and this is a direct quote, fuck this show, L.O.L. Like, I don't... Yo! Show me, bro. I never thought I'd see the side of you, bro. I fundamentally, I don't understand what we're doing here anymore. I'm dead serious.

And honestly, the stuff, like the first, you know what, 40 minutes of the episode, like that stuff didn't nearly pissed me off as much as the last five minutes of the episode did. Like what in God's name? What's like, Charles, you said it best, bro. What's the point?

What are we doing here? Dog, you know what I mean? We spent the last season, he got the dark saber. Ooh, that's important. Right? Book of Boba Fett. It's like, hey, man, you get the dark saber. He's supposed to rule a man o'clock.

He beats Paz. Now I mean? Ooh, what does this mean? Hey, you know what? I'm just, I didn't want it anyway. I'm going to just give it up. and by some, you do, loophole in the law, you can have, like, it's like, like, come on. You know, don't know something my intelligence, please.

Like, we can be better than this, bro. Yeah, it was just a really disappointing episode, you know, from start to finish. But, like, really the ending is really what got me going, bro. I've never been so upset. I've probably, like, Rise of Skywalker level of upset. Oh, my God. Oh. That's good, Joe.

That pissed me off. That's a fucking Jesus. No, I pissed me off, bro. I'm not going to lie. Like I was, I left my TV. Like, I had to go home. Like, I literally was laying in bed. I'd watch the episode of Boondocks to calm down, bro.

Like, I was hot. I was hot. Steve? Well, I enjoyed this episode a lot more. I thought that there was a lot of fun to be had in a lot of good parts to this. I will agree with Jomi that I think the ending through a bucket of cold water on me. And I did not like it at all. And for reasons that we're going to get into.

but I think the structure and I think that the things that were the impetus for the motivation between what Dinn and Bo were doing for most of this episode were getting a little bit back to the basics of the Mandalorian formula that we liked. Now, what it ended on ultimately

undermined a lot of that, but I did like most of this episode quite a bit. Stop stalling and say it. Say it. You know Kathleen Kennedy signed that check. Say it. Stop stalling and say what you said. I think it was one of the best episodes of this season.

No. Nope. Not. You didn't. It's all you said. You didn't say one of. Say it. The best episode of the season.

Thank you. Stay on it. Stay on it. Play stop the fucking cast. Play stop the cat. That's insane. All right, Van, Van, I really want to hear. hear what you thought because you might be somewhere in the middle of us.

I liked it. So here's the thing. So here's the thing. There was some ridiculously stupid things that happened in this episode. I have to be honest with you. And we're going to talk about it. Like ridiculously stupid. Like we're really dumb.

Okay. Like, I think, I'll talk about something historically that happened that we talked about in this podcast before. And it was reminiscent of something that happened in this episode. with the casting, the Lizzo situation, and all of that stuff. Like, I don't know what the fuck, okay? I don't. However, I also think that I've, I mean, just being for real.

Like, you know what I mean? Not specifically Lizzo, Lizzo and Jack Black, the Lissau Jack Black connection together. Yeah. It's not as if they haven't kind of done stuff like this before, you know, it didn't feel like it was the same, but, you know, Bill Burr popped up in episodes. We've done stuff like this kind of, but not kind of, this seemed different. maybe also the characters themselves were a little bit different here and a little bit more stunty in how they were acting

and the overt comedy of the characters. I will say this, though, because I've given up on this season of the Mandalorian or I've acquiesced to the fact that my expectations colored my criticism of this being some sort of deeper exploration into this serious journey with Dan and Grogu, and this is actually more of a standard season of the Mandalorian like we've gotten in the past,

this episode doesn't really seem too out of the box for that to me. This is pretty much standard Mandalorian episode structure, right? Den and the peeps are on their way to do something else, and as they're doing something else, they have to do something before they get to the something else, and then at the end, they try to round it back out. it's kind of just like basically

a standard episode of the Mandalorian. However, I knew, I knew that this would be incredibly polarizing and aggravating to people. I knew it. I said this, I said, when I was watching it, I haven't written down in my notes. I said, this might be the one that breaks the audience.

You might be right. I mean, for me, you know, the Mandalorian is always had that like Western vibe where you got to go, like a video game. right you gotta go do a task but do that task you have to help somebody else like on a droid mission like you know like like this episode was literally like a droid mission or like a follow somebody you know like if you've played a lot of video games you know how this goes so really the first like like it said like the first 40 minutes was like you know kind of silly but like i'm used to that

like that's fine it happens it's cool seeing jack black was like crazy you know but other than that the droid fight was kind of silly the getting blood from the droid was ridiculous But like, cool, like, you know, we're in Star Wars. That's fine. The last five minutes is what broke me. Like, that's literally the straw that was like... Talk about it. I mean, we're going to get into it.

But actually, save it. Let's play out. Hold on. Save it. Save it. Put a pin in that. Let's talk about the cameos. We keep saying Jack Black and Lizzo, they're three.

Jack Black, Lizzo, Christopher Lloyd. I personally think that that's kind of the thing. It seemed like, okay, you gave me Lizzo. You gave me Jack Black. Lizzo's hanging out with Grogo. All of it. that's fine. But then fucking Doc Brown jumps into it and I'm like, yo man, what the fuck is happening?

Yeah. You know, I'm not down on the episode. I thought the episode was cool. But I'm like, I'm like, why in this one? Like, why in this one? I was the most excited to see Christopher Lloyd out of all three of those. No, I was going to ask, all right, Steve, do you think he was underutilized? Because I was like, Christopher Lloyd's in this.

And then I was like, wait, y'all aren't going to like let Christopher Lloyd cook? Let him cook. He's a thousand years old. Like, it is, is, he didn't matter. He did. What are you expecting from Christopher Lloyd at this point? Like he, like he did.

What do you want him to do? Like, what do you want Christopher Lloyd to do? Act, like, give him more screen time. They're like, they're like,

all right. They give him like five seconds to explain the robots. And then they're like, he did it. And I'm just like, wait, what?

We don't get any other motivation, really. We don't even get to, like, really. We got his, like, kind of end game speech of like,

you know, Duke who was, visionary and he was cut short and all that stuff. And I was like, all right, that's pretty cool. But then, like, the show hit self-hand waves it by Bo Catan just shooting him and being like, ah, politics, blah, blah, blah, which also was stupid because I'm like, you're about to be in politics for a big portion of your life, Bo. Like, you should probably know some of this shit.

Jomey's like seizing right now because he's so mad. But I like Christopher Lloyd coming in on this. This was great. So can I also ask this, though? I think the thing that pissed me off about the Lizzo of it all is not specifically Lizzo, what I'm like, I know that that's Lizzo, where it's like, at least with Jack Black, he's like an actor. I'm like, first of all, Lizzo can't act. Strong disagree there.

Well, here's a deal. Let's let's have a conversation about massaging noir and its place. Let's have a place about massage and noir and its place in fandom and things like that. So you mean to tell me you could tell it was Lizzo but you couldn't tell it was Jack Black. If you would let me finish I would have had this same thing

if fucking Jay Cole showed up in this. I'd be like, what the fuck is Jay Cole doing in a galaxy far far away bro? Like he's like that's a level of him like If Joe Cole was in an episode of Mandalorian I would have turned my television off. Bro, I disagree. I think Jay Cole fits

perfectly in the Star Wars universe. What? Bro, bra. Imagine this. Imagine, imagine there's some Jedi. That's not a gray Jedi. He's not quite with the light and not quite with the dark.

He's problematic to the people on the light side, and he's problematic to the people on the dark side. He's not conscious, but he's not woke from printed DreamVillet. DreamVillet. You know what I mean? And he's just giving out bars. You know, because think about it.

Think about J. Cole. Jay Cole got into it with no name because he's not woke enough for the no-name people. Hi. And he's definitely too cautious for the drill rappers. Brough, that could be a perfect Jedi. He is the Jedi of rap when you think about it. Stop.

Okay, okay, okay, okay. The great Jedi of rap. No, look, I'm not saying that Lizzo can act. She didn't have very much to do. I don't know if Lizzo can act. I just know that I know that that's Lizzo in a real way. And so we talked about this before. And you guys didn't believe me, but it was facts.

George Lucas wanted to put in sync in Attack of the Clones. Very true. Oh, that, yeah, yeah. And then we got worded at. And everybody, when I say the We, remember, I was crawling so that y'all could walk. We got word of that. And we were like, fuck no, right? And we saved a great movie Attack of the Clones for you guys, okay?

Yes, thank you. Thank you for saving selfish that movie. We saved it because it would have been... Yeah. When I... This is no shot to Lizzo. I think Lizzo was fine.

But when I saw Lizzo in this episode, I was like, they in sync this episode. Like, why? It takes you out of it a little bit to me. I gotta be honest. Lizzo was not the... I had no problem with Lizzo.

It was, as soon as the door opens, I'm like, that's Jack Black. From a thousand feet of... From a thousand yards away, I was like, that's Jack Black. Lizzo didn't take me out of the episode a bunch. I mean, I don't listen to a ton of Lizzo, so like I'm not outside like that. But I know Jack Black when I see Jack Black. And the entire time, I'm like, that's Jack Black.

Good week for Jack Black. This Super Mario Bros. Wild. Like, it's all I'm thinking every time he's on screen. You know what I mean? But Jack Black is actually an actor. So it's not out of the question to see Jack Black pop up in something. I think that's the difference for me. Do you feel what I'm saying?

I can understand that. But, like, for me, like, you know, over the last few years, Jack Black has become, like, you know, he's a great dude. Like, you always see him also. Like, he's being him, like, very much being Jack Black. And so when I see him, like, in a big outfit with the beard, being, like, like, very welcoming, very, you know, open, very, like, you know, charming. I'm like, that's Jack Black, man. Like, I don't know to tell you.

I can't see it. It looked like he rolled out of bed. That was my problem where I'm just like, instead of him playing a character. They're like, yo, yo, Jack, you got like 15 minutes. Like, we'll get you in and out. We'll wait green screen and everything. That's what it felt like. So even the Jack Black of it all, I'm just like, if you're going to get Jack Black,

I think you should commit to the bit and like make him a real character and not just a stunt cameo. I'm honestly at this point, I'm throwing Zeb in there too where I'm just like, they just keep Zeb, Babu Frick, all of these characters where it's just like, hey, look at what we did. Look at this person. And I'm just like, what the fuck does this have to do with this season of TV, bro? Babu Frick was great. Don't do that. Don't do that.

Don't do that. I knew he was going to take it too far. Like, you know what I'm saying? See, this is what happens, bro. Like, Charles has a lane and we like, I liked the episode. I really did. And we're going to talk about some of the things that I liked later. But you give Charles a little lane.

And by the end of it, he is standing over Mickey Mouse's dead body with a hatchet. Just cutting chunks out of him. I told you not to do it. Um, okay. Uh, now look, let's move on. Grogu in this episode, a cute little prop. That's what they made, my man. Yeah.

It's rough. Come on. He just dared to, he's a nerf ball at this point. All he does is like they throw him and it's just like, that's all he does all the episode. He's there to sell toys and eat fish and he's all out of fish. Oh, we at a point at this, at this, uh, junction in the show where they don't know what to do with Grogu's story. It's obvious that Grogu, I would, I would,

I would agree with that. It's not obvious that he is not going to mature in time for us to see Grogu as a badass in any way that have to be a significant time jump based upon the way. They've, like, written themselves his race, uh, uh, matures. They've kind of written themselves into a corner with Grogu. There's not a lot you can do with Grogu right now. Are we at that point where we are realizing that? I think absolutely.

And I, if I'm being serious, like if I'm being like less acidic, I think the thing that made me very sad about this episode is I think what made the Mandalorian the first two seasons very great was that they were like elementally Star Wars. The original Star Wars movie is a movie about family. Those first three movies are about fathers and sons and what makes people family, what connects you? Is it blood? Is it love? Is it the force? And I think that the Mandalorian had that. It was like what makes a father, what makes a son? And I think even in this episode,

there were parts that were interesting when they go back to the Mandalorians and he's like, yo, Dyn isn't even one of us. He doesn't even have Mandalorian blood. I'm like, that's interesting to me because I'm like, that speaks to the whole conflict of this. What connects Ragu and Dinn? It's love.

And we don't get any of that. And I think there's still more story to tell. I would love a season of this, which was similar to the first couple episodes where it's like, this is about Dinn teaching Grogu what it means to be a Mandalorian and what it means to be his son. But instead of that, it's like for most of these episodes, either Grogu stays behind and Dinn is all fucking off doing something else. Or he's just this little guy that does you cute shit, but we don't act like he doesn't have. have any wants or desires of his own. And that makes me really, really sad.

So let's come back to what you said about the Mandalorians and extrapolate that a little bit because I think that's one of the more interesting aspects of this episode, especially when we come to it at the end. Because it's not just one-sided, right? When Den first meets Boca Tan, he says, you show your face, you're not Mandalorian. It's the first thing that he says to it. Or one of the first things that he says to it, you show your face, you're not Mandalorian. The struggle of the definition of a people is incredibly compelling

when it is looked at through the lens of what the children of the watch are and what the night owls are, right? When you look at the two different factions and you look at them, they have different ideas of what it means to be Mandalorian. It's not the same, right? So it's not, they have two completely different ideas of family and what it means to be Mandalorian and all of that. And that happens with any people, especially when they're in peril,

because they need the fundamentals of who they are to be the strongest part of who they are, which is why you can't take your helmet off, right? We talked about this, which is why, if you don't have Mandalorian blood, you're not a real Mandalorian. They need to know what's real because they need to know who they can trust. And that is the reason why Boca Tan coming back with a new outlook or a different perspective

on what it means to be Mandalorian could potentially be such a big deal to the rest of the night owls and to everyone is because when she said we're stronger together, I thought that scene was underplayed to a degree because what I would like her, what I would have liked to see

is for her to have explained why. And instead of doing that, we get what we always get from the Mandalorians, which is a fight. right and i i wonder if the show has or will have something to say about the fact that the mandolarian way or how they choose leadership or their culture being based around warfare is at some point going to bite them in the ass because yeah there's following her now but when they meet the rest of the children of the watch are they going to have any sort of affinity

need for them? Are they going to fill a oneness with them? Doesn't there need to be a discussion of philosophy? And I thought that she was going to do that. But she kind of didn't. She just went, I challenge you. And they do what they always do. They're Mandalorians. I mean, going off that, I think it's a problem of like, I actually don't know what these

characters believe anymore. Because even from the beginning of this season, it was like we have Bokitan, who's essentially, it seems like she's in this villain role where she's like, fucked in. And in this episode, it's like Din and Bo are now best friends. And even when he gives up the Dark Saber, I'm just, it seems like they've forgotten everything that's happened in previous seasons where did it even matter that Din took off his helmet in season two? Because it seems like it doesn't now. Where we haven't gotten any plot progression of that at all. We haven't even gotten any plot progression of like what does Bo really want? Does she really want to lead?

Like what does it mean for her to lead again? I, to your point, Van, they just don't really, they haven't had any of those conversations yet, which is weird because we only have two episodes left. Let me ask you a question. What do you want it to mean? So, so I think that's an interesting, before we move on, I think that's an interesting criticism, then taking off of his, then taking off his helmet. I think sometimes as fans of this different fair, we should ask ourselves,

Charles, what in your mind, I'm not asking you to write the show, I'm just basing this off your criticism. I also not asking you to qualify your criticism because I think it's a fair one. I'm just saying, what in your mind would have made that moment have the weight that you felt like

it was either going to have or you felt like it needed to have? So, I was very, very interested in this next season with Din internally having the struggle that a lot of people who are religious, very hyper-religious, go through. Where it's just like, what have I been taught? That's indoctrination. What is something that I actually believe in?

How much is my faith overriding my judgment? And then within that, that struggle being internalized and externalized through Grogu being like, wait, I did show him my face for a reason. I did have that connection. And potentially Grogu's motivation being like, why does my father figure have this helmet on all the time anymore? Why is he maybe more distant than he was when he gave me up? I would, even though Grogu can't talk, I think that there can be a struggle of even though Grogu chose to be with Din, you don't learn how to be a father. Speaking of someone who has been adopted before, that's what's happening. And sometimes that experience is like, how do I love someone who may not be my

biological parent, but still has love for me? And how to someone who's adopted a child, like, give that child space to go through the angst of what all of that means. That to me is like, interesting. And it was what they're hinting at. And instead of it being that this season, it's like, all right, he took a bath in the waters and we are never going to bring it up again, which is, it's just less interesting to me. There's no stakes and there's really no tension. Men, boys? Yeah, no, I'm with, I hear Charles, and I just, you know,

that relationship was like the core, was the crux, you know, of the show, Dan and Grogu going, Dan and Grogu against the world. Like, that's what we're doing. And this season has made them almost background characters, you know? where, man, what's Bocatan up to? Ooh, in the, like, if you would have, like, show this to me without any prior knowledge, I would have thought Bocatan was the main character.

You know what I mean? Like, it's, it's that serious. Everyone says that. Is there a world where that could have worked? Is that, do you, are you guys fundamentally against Boketan being centered? Since we're talking about misogyny. Are you guys fundamentally against

Boketan being centered? or are you guys saying that they're not doing it right? So I, in my personal opinion, if you are going to, the crux of the show has always been Dinn and Grogu. If you are going to say in the third season that Boketan is our protagonist, then that character and whatever relationship she has have to be just as good or if not more interesting

than the central relationship that you're leaving. behind. And I'll ask you this. So far, is Boca Tan being the driver of this season? Is that more interesting than Din and Grogu in the past? I would say no. Steve, you're quiet. What's up? No, I wanted to piggyback up of what Charles was thinking, because to think that Boca Tan could be the, you know, protagonist of a, let's just say a season of the Mandalorian. Say that the ball was passed to Bo, Bo, at the end of season two and being like, okay, well, Dark Sabre,

wanting to reclaim Mandelor, we're with this group and stuff like that. The show isn't exactly telegraphing the fact that it still is acting like Din and Grogu are those main two characters and figures in this show when it keeps distracting itself from other things,

with other things. And that's the problem that we're having. If it had more of a focus on Bo, we would like that, probably. if there was more time for those things to develop and cook, yes. But every time it seems like Dinn and Grogu might be getting in the way of the show that other people want to make it out to be, if that makes sense. You know, in this episode, I thought that there was a lot of contrast between Dinn and Bo.

Because when this episode takes a whole, we're investigating a crime type of flavor, you know, a Mandalorian. Special Victims Unit, you know what I mean? It had that whole flavor to it. And then it was an asshole. He was a, he's a... Out of why. Police brutality.

Bro, like, Droid lives matter. Bro, then he's a dracist. He's a droid racist, bro. He's a really aggressive, racist bigot. It was, literally this is the first time, like, I've ever been... Like, he's kind of... I really... didn't like it. I mean,

I didn't like it either. Yeah, I mean, especially in, now I'm a droid activist since we've had this on the, at first I didn't give a fuck about a droid. If Van didn't give a fuck about a droid, where would they, I wouldn't even, if Van gave a fuck about a droid. You know what I'm saying?

It's like, I didn't give a fuck about it. You're the array of Star Wars? Now, I am first in line with the droid defense fund and then was fucking terrible. You can't kick the droids, man.

You can't kick the droids, man. You in Boston Dynamics on him. I didn't like it. That's a little too far, man. Like, there's one thing to be like, man, I don't like droids, you know, but a little suspicious, kind of being a hater.

He was kicking the battle droids, man. He murdered. They murdered a droid in cold blood. Like, what are we in the street? What are you talking about? When did they do that? When he's chasing after the battle droid? Oh, yeah.

And they just, like, shoot him. I'm like, Charles, he was resisting arrest. You can't, you can't do that. Yeah. They actually, the droids have a kind of, they have a body count here. So the battle droid got killed. Those battle joys are tough, though. The battle joy got killed, no trial.

What are the rights of a droid? Because they also didn't kill the other joy. That joy was, that was self-defense, though, dark saber situation. I don't think droids have the same rights, right? Like, there's no, there's no droid citizen council. There's also droid bars. So, like, they congregate. Right.

Like, they, and they don't have any rights. Like, it is, like, I was, I was. They stood up for themselves in front of, in front of Dinn and all of that stuff. Like, that's interesting. Right. Like, they've, they've got a system. Like, they've got like, like, a legit connection. We got to start talking about this, man.

Like, DeJoy needs better rights. But also talking about it from like a character level, it's weird because I had thought through these first two seasons, DIN was not necessarily. fully on board with droids, but between IG-11, the droid that he picked up in the first episode of this season to go to Mandelor.

It seemed like he was at least softening and realizing that, hashtag, not all droids, but... But this is like the actual interesting crux of this episode that I liked because I'm like, there's a legitimate argument here

for the mistreatment and, like, autonomy of droids. It seems as if the droids are some... I mean, the droids are sentient, right? They have fun. They go to a droid bar. They show fear. Your heart goes out to the droids.

And we've always loved the droids of Star Wars. We just didn't love them as much as the human and alien characters that we follow. But now it seems as if there's a case to be made that the droids deserve a little bit more sort of advocacy on behalf of us as fans and in the universe. I don't tell you this, though. There are things in this episode when you look at the contrast between Den and Boca Tam that

Den is still Dan, right? Dan is still the resourceful. He's still really the resourceful Mandalorian we've already known. He's still the guy who solves the lion's share of the problems in this episode when you look at it. Den is the one

his ways might be crass, but they work. Even at the end of this episode, he solves the ultimate problem. He is the one that can talk to the workers down there, the alien race, because he's more experienced than Boca Tan. The fact that Boca Tan has been sheltered in her royal prince-s family type of situation,

it shows itself. She's a little bit more human, but he's a little bit more of the old den in some ways being like a guy that just kind of gets the job done. You have to kind of see through that. to really put your finger on it because so much of the episode is going to turn people off. But I thought this episode was good for Den in terms of Den being the person that kind of gets to the bottom of things or get shit done. You guys don't see that?

So I enjoyed that part, but what I actually, part of this episode that made me rethink the entire season was, would this have been a more interesting season if they do play up the differences between Din and both throughout? because this was the first episode where I'm like, wait, Dean actually has a lot of qualities of a great leader. He listens to people. He knows how to communicate with them. He is very,

like, to your point, man, he's very resourceful. While Bo Katan, like, she can get it done physically in terms of, like,

fighting off people. She's resourceful in that way, but she does not have the qualities of a leader in terms of, like, uniting people. And I've like,

that feels like almost a threat I wish that they would have investigated a little bit more in terms of like maybe Dinn is the person who can lead Mandelor and he might still be. But by the end of it, I'm going to be honest. Jomey, when you said the loophole, the loophole pissed me the fuck off. Dog. It pissed me off. What are we doing?

Have some decorum. Have some respect. Oh, man. Everybody, but you guys are talking about that now. everybody, they telegraphed that. Everybody saw that. Everything I read, everything I watched. Everyone said,

Boca Tan is technically the willer of the Dark Sabre now. That wasn't a surprise to most people. I thought, I didn't know if they were actually going to do it. But like, Boca Tan is, Boca Tan definitely, like, all, that whole thing, I saw so many people say, well, in Boca Tan, I think we might have even said it here. We joked about it. We definitely joked about it. Yeah, in Bocatan technically the willer of the Dark Sabre now, it was, they telegraphed it.

I don't understand why that bothers you guys so much. It's all because it's based on hearsay. It's based on hearsay. All we need to do is have the person who's holding the darksever be like, well, she beat the person that beat me. Here you go. That's why. Like, if nobody else is there to see it, if nobody, like, it's, it's all erroneous. Sorry, Charles, I stepped on you.

No, no, no, I stepped on you. Like, here's the thing, two things. The reason why it pissing me off so much is first. of all. We already know that a bunch of the Mandalorians are very, very, um, how do I put this? They don't believe Bo? Because Bo already had a, had the Dark Sabre and fucked it up. So like, just having somebody be like, hey, actually, she's the rightful owner. And they'll be like, all right, yeah, sure. I'm like, wait, wait, what? We're doing this again. And then I think the second thing that's more of a story problem is that we've seen it in rebels.

The genius of the Dark Sabre is the Dark Sabre tells you something about the character. If they are having trouble wielding it, it shows you that there is conflict within them. If this whole thing, and maybe Din will get it back, if this entire plot point of Din getting the Dark Saber ends on this note where he never actually learns how to wield it, as a viewer, I'm like, then what was the point of him having it in the first place? It makes no, like, it makes no story sense, right, to give him the saber and then be like oh yeah man you can have it there you go i'm not going to learn to use it i'm not going to deal with the implications that it that it has like it rests on my shoulders

like hey you have the dark saber you're supposed to be the ruler mannard nah i don't want to i don't want it here here you go by technicality you can have it it it diminishes my the diminishes didn't as a like a little bit legitimately takes away so much as a character takes away so much from the story. And, like, just, I can't even wrap my head around. I can't even put, put in the words. I, I, I, stupid moment that one.

Go, Johnny. Go, Johnny. I couldn't, I couldn't disagree more. What? That's impossible. I couldn't disagree more. Number one, the moment that the Dark Sabre touched Den's hand, he tried to give it away.

The moment he had it, let me finish. The moment he took. touched the Dark Saber, he tried to give it away. Den has never given a fuck about the Dark Saber. Not one time. Den is very clear about what he cares about in this episode. I don't know that the children of the Watch care that much about the Dark Sabre outside of Pasvisla

because of his connection to a way of Mandelor that doesn't exist with them. The armorer told Dinn, you have the Darksaber, they will listen to you. The armorer didn't say you have the Dark Saber, we will listen to you because the armorer is still the leader of the children of the watch, even though Dinn has the Dark Saber. Him having the Dark Saber doesn't mean anything to him because he is one of them.

It means something to the rest of the Mandalians. the night owl faction of the mandolore, the other Mandalorians, he is not one of them. Then why give it to him? What's the story purpose of giving it to him? The story purpose of giving it to him, in my opinion,

is to show the differences in the factions. One thing means everything. So, like, one thing means everything. What you guys expected, and I'm not, you guys are in time to believe whatever you want, was I think that you thought that one day,

You guys said that Sabine's going to come teach Dan how to use the Dark Sabre. You guys expect that Den to one day want to understand and wield the Dark Saber and do all of that stuff with the Dark Saber. The Dark Saber, to me, isn't a story tool of what Den wants. It's a story tool of what Den doesn't want. And to be honest with you, I think the fact that he could never really use it, he never figured, he never could really use it. It's not for him.

And to me, that's not good or bad. It's just kind of what it is. You guys wanted more from the Dark Sabre thing, but you don't get it because that's not the story they're telling. But here's the thing. I fundamentally disagree because him just using a loophole to give it back to Bo in terms of story, it's a very passive way to tell a story where I'll use this. If Lord of the Rings ended with Frodo, like in the third act being like,

hey, you know what, fuck this ring. I don't want this ring. You would be like, wait, what? It corrupting him, it tells you so much about like, oh, this is the ultimate evil. It can corrupt someone who is even so pure of heart. Even if Dinn, it ended with him destroying the Dark Sabre, it ended him with being like, I'm not the person to wield this. It would be fine.

But I want it to be an active decision, not the last five minutes of this show being like, hey actually technically this ain't even mine anymore here you go and everybody cheering and I'm like what the fuck are we watching there are so many more rich ways to for him to get rid of the dark saber let's say like at the end like you know he's got the saber they've got to fight whoever they've got to fight as the manelorians and they're like bro you got to you're in charge my boy he's like ah i'm not really like bro now you got to make it happen he's like bet he does this thing at the end they're like he's like i'm in charge right iro manna law right cool guess what? I'm changed the rules. I can just give this order to whoever I want. Who needs

the thing? Here you go, Bo. I don't want to do all that. Like, things like that like would grow a character or would like change the way we see how the man and lawyers go because, you know, whoever's running the show, right, gets to make the rules. Him just being like, oh, hey, yeah, remember that one time when I, yeah, y'all, yeah, and then

yeah, because in subsection B of section B of, of paragraph C line three. Here you go, pal. Goodbye. Like, what are we doing here? So this is what sometimes fans do. And this is a healthy argument.

I love this. You're writing your story, right? And that's cool. Let me tell you, let me point out a couple of differences between a couple of things that you guys said. Number one, if Frodo did that, it wouldn't make sense.

Do you know why? Frodo made his entire purpose the ring. His entire purpose. Frodo uprooted his life, went on a journey with his friend to save the world and by getting rid of the ring, he made his entire purpose the ring.

So yeah, I agree. If Frodo's entire purpose changed on a whim, that wouldn't make any sense. Denjorn has never, ever, ever, ever made ruling Mandelor or being the leader of the Mandalorian. or learning with the Dark Saber or anything his purpose.

Den Jarn's character, as it relates to the Dark Saber, is consistent. You guys are writing your own story, and that's fine. You're writing a story based upon how you viewed the Dark Saber from the Clone Wars, what you saw with Darth Maul, what you saw with Pass Vizlum. So what's from what they've showed us the entire way. Right. But look, but you've also run into characters. that every one of the characters that you've run into

has cared about Willing the Dark Sabre. And so you can't believe that somebody wouldn't, but he doesn't. So here's the thing, because we have textual evidence from this episode. What happens when Bo is on the fence of helping this planet? It's Din who hears Jack Black being like, hey, if y'all help us out,

we're going to help you with the New Republic and making Mandelor a sovereign system, blah, blah, blah, whatever. and Dan hears that, and he's like, oh, word, bet, yeah, this sounds like a great deal. So there is something, even in this episode that is telling you that, like, Dean cares about the future of Mandelor. The armorer wants that. The armorer sits, so listen, so listen, so you're right. You're right about that.

But remember what happened at the end of the last episode. The Armourer said, it's time to unite the Mandalorians and bring the Mandalorian stuff back. And they, Din and, Din and Boca Tan, they left. Den is, the leader of his tribe, the leader of his, of his sect. She wants this. So, then is, the reason why they're going out to find these Mandalrians is to do what they have been tasked to do. So, like, by the way, I'm not at all saying that you guys shouldn't have been,

disappointed with the episode. I'm not saying that you guys shouldn't have been. A lot of people, I wrote it down. I said, this is going to be the episode that breaks the audience. But what I will say, though, and this is the last point I'm making, then we can move on.

Because I want to hear from Steve, too. What I will say, though, is this is what happened with the Last Jedi. And I fell victim to the Last Jedi as well. The Jedi was super important. I knew who Luke Skywalker was. All of that stuff was it was so important to me. And then the creator wrote his story.

And even people like myself, like, couldn't handle it. I saw myself that would never happen again. Like, if they don't, I see, I'm serious. Like, I see Luke Skywalker throw the fucking, um, the lightsaber. And I'm like, he wouldn't do that. But he would because that's what they had for him. And so everything that we had in our hearts for, for Dinn, like, Dinn's going to be the leader of Madelor or Grogu's going to be the

Mandalorian. It's just not, and it's consistent here, at least with Luke, look, I can make an argument that Luke would have actually never done that. It wasn't being real. But, but, wait, boy, but wait, but wait, but wait, but wait, but wait, but wait, I have to, I, but wait, I have to submit to it. But with DIN, the difference here is this has always been who DIN has been. I'm taking up so much option.

I'm sorry. Steve, what do you think? You're good, you're good. Yeah. Go ahead, guys, I'm sorry. No, I mean, for me, I just feel like there's a way more interesting, way more interesting story if Dinn is forced to take up the movie shit. If, you know, by, like, I keep thinking about, like, John Snow in Game of Thrones

and how at every opportunity he was like, no, I'm not trying to do all this, bro. Like, this is not really what I want to do. And yet, Destiny's like, no, man, this is kind of your thing, my boy. You're in charge. I'm not to tell you. at every opportunity, whatever, the gods are like, nah, man, this is you, this is what you do.

And I kind of, I kind of think for, for, then, that would have been a way more interesting arc, you know, but like, yeah, you can't really give it the dark seven of my boy, you have to, you know, do this thing. It's like a cop-out. Like, I understand what you're saying, man. Like, the story is very much like he doesn't want to do it. But when, in most of these things,

the destiny takes charge. Like, nah, man, this is what you do. This is where you go. This is who you are. I'm sorry. I know you don't want to be in charge, but it's how you are. And this story is like, no, man, you know what? You can abscond that responsibility.

Who cares? That's weird, man. That's so weird. There's just a more artful way to do it. That's my last point. I just think there was a more artful way of handling it. You could agree. You're trying to bring up Game of Thrones again, people who hate that.

Yeah, ready about to kill you. Steve, what are your thoughts before we move on? No, no, no. You were actually swaying me quite a bit, Van. But I think the biggest... The biggest problem that I had immediately upon seeing the end of that episode was the fact that he gets most of those night owls on a technicality to be like, well, if she does this, then this is what happens. But then as you're saying that, I'm like, well, if he never really cared about leadership, if he never really cared about the McGuffin that was the Dark Sabre, and if it was only for the sake of uniting this one sect of the Mandalorians underneath Bo anyway, then he could do whatever he wants to actually give that off to Bo. and like, you know, Bob's your uncle.

I think that that's actually kind of the compromise that he might actually be seeing to know that the armor is willing to have Bo walk around without her helmet on and still have them unite more Mandalrians in their name might be a better compromise when they're like, okay, well, if we have this silly little rule that allows Bo to now wield the Dark Saber,

we can probably find some common ground on how to actually be a more united Mandalorian people. is it finally Boca Tons time we've seen in Clone Wars Didn't get the job done We saw it in Rebels And the other show Didn't get the job done

It's the third time the charm For Bo to finally reunite Manilor And be the leader that she always Thought she was born to me I think Moff Gideon is gonna Like just Boketan's time might be up Like

He might be like No come on man see see you don't even know you don't even know I'm just saying last episode they were like the Mandalornees broken out

I'm just like hey it looks like it was the nighthouse It could be the nighthouse I want to say one thing though there's only one question I have about before we got off the darks everything it's only one of a question I have about it is why didn't he give it to her like

two or three weeks ago That's what I'm talking about Because people needed to see it People needed to see... That's the thing. Yeah. People needed to see him be like, this is why. He wanted people to see...

And we keep saying it's a technicality. It's not. Yes, it is. It's not a technicality. Then was fighting with someone. He used the Dark Sabre. He lost. They took the Dark Sabre.

That person is now the wielder of the Dark Saber. That's always the way that that's worked. Book of Ten, then fought this. person and took the dark saber from them the dark saber could pass around so for that guy used the dark saber against Beau. For a while it against Bo. For a while,

spinnling little spider dude was the leader of Mandelor. Yeah. And she took it from him really because he never wielded it. He never opened it. I know, but it's not like he needs to it. It's not like he needs to be the now eye, the weirder. She picked it up off the ground. She gave it back to him. It was

She was like, oh, step. Oh, yeah, I guess that technically, you know what I mean? If she would have been like, oh, hey, no, you lost. I beat him. So they're not the smartest. You know what? But that's the thing, those symbols and those smartest. I know, but like those symbols and those gestures only mean something to the people that

are willing to believe in them. Like, obviously Spider-Man didn't believe in the Dark Saber because he wanted the, I don't know, his life juice or whatever. Like, so can I ask you all another question? much about that to give it back to him is showing enough like, okay, well, she clearly cares about this more and who owns this more than I do.

He's so serious. Also, can I say something else just real quick? I don't know. Why do we always ask on this podcast if we can speak? It's like, we're the mandolores. We give each other's space. There's a respect. There's a contrast between the children of the watch and the night owls. And this is interesting.

The children of the watch are the zeal. but it seems that they chose their leader. It seems as if they chose their leader, right? They're loyal to the armorer, not because the armorer has any specific thing. It seems like the armorer was chosen, was chosen to lead them, or at least they are loyal to the armorer for other reasons other than what she wields. the night owls who are supposedly the more liberal or the less zealot-like, whatever word that would be,

faction devout, whatever, the less fanatical, should I say, fundamentals of the Mandalorian, they still are definitely, definitely zealots. Because like all of this stuff happens and they are just obsessed, with tradition. They're obsessed with, like, choosing their leaders through fights. So, to me, all of this is important because in ways, the children of the watch

are more evolved and more emotional and more, like, connected. And they're more of a family than the night-alls are. And so then to me going, hey, just to let you guys know, and think about how serious they were in that moment, just to let you guys know, technically, she beat me, Disney beat me, she beat the thing, and then so she got it.

Technically, it's hers. So it's actually hers. She actually has it. That to me is like kind of showing how stupid the whole Dark Saper thing is and how stupid he thinks it is and how really ridiculous it is. And if everybody's just willing to believe it after that,

they're like, well, there you go. Well, like that's it. So. And that's what I want to ask you this though Going off of this I was confused about why Bo could just challenge Axe like this Because in the beginning

The first episode she's just like Yeah they don't respect me anymore Blah blah So I was left wondering Did Axe beat her in like ritual combat The first time Or could she have just done this shit To begin with?

Then they made a call Right It's like she didn't have the saber And it was just like Yeah man you're not really who he thought you was, my boy. We're going to keep you pushing. So wait, why are they following X then? If he did, like, if he did not beat

Boketan the first time in combat, why are they just following him? So, again, when, when I have no clue, they don't tell us that. They don't tell us that. They don't, they don't tell us that. If, again, I

have no clue. Maybe there is no leader and he's just kind of the de facto whatever. But because Dinn technically is, and then like if he were to show up and being like, hey, do what I say, then they would. But the fact that they're not nipping at his heels for leadership is more like, all right, well, may as well be mercenaries, may as well make sure much. Because they were following, they were following Bo Katan before.

And she didn't have the dark saver. Yeah, but my whole issue is when DIN shows up, technically, we needed another beat to be like, oh shit, like technically our leader is here. And they acted like, who is this motherfucker? And I'm like, wait, what? Like, now that, that is a good point. The fact that they should have probably like bent the knee when he showed up if it was all that. You know what I mean?

Like that like that that that's actually a good point. Also, it's kind of like Rufio. I got Pan's sword now. I'm the Pan. I'm the Pan. It's kind of like Rufio, right? It's kind of like Rufio. Rufio wouldn't, they were, they were.

Yeah. It is. It's kind of like Rufio. Wait a minute. Is the Dark Saber just the sword from Pets? It's kind of, it's kind of, it's kind of like Rufio, man. Rufio, Rufio. Rufio was not really Peter Pan, bro.

Really, it was, you know what I'm saying? Rufio was, Rufi, oh, it's like, and he gets killed. They killed Rufio. Shout out to my man. But, like, it was, they didn't want to be Rufio, you know, with the Pansword. He does it. He doesn't. He absolutely doesn't.

Rufio was the leader, but he wasn't really Peter Pan. You know, it's Rufio, man. Rufi, oh, okay. Wow, that was a great. conversation from the Midnight Boys, did we get mature? We were cooking. Yeah. Jesus Christ. We tried our best.

I mean, yeah. We didn't know. Did we get mature? Nobody won the argument? It was just like two differing really good points. Bryce Alice Howard directed this one. In our bingo car, we said that she would direct the best episode of the Mandalorian. Yeah.

That turned out to be a lie. To be fair, to be fair, I think this is more. more on the script and less on her as a director. Yeah. You know what I mean? They didn't really give her a lot to work with.

To Steve's point, once they was draining the fucking droid of blood, I'm like, yo, man. The fuck who's doing, bro. Can we talk about that for one second? Yo.

He, like, stuck it in the vein. Like, they got blood, but it's... They got... It's oil pups, you know?

Come on, man. They got... They got oil. No, man. And also, and also, really quick, can we talk about that?

this to? Why are they putting, why are they putting the decommissioned droids in a morgue? But she pulled the body out like it was a human body. I'm like, wait, those things are you, so you can store it. Do you want them to have rights or not? Why do you have to store a droid, bro? Like, what? Nicka what? That was crazy. You guys, it would be great a thing to keep it cold. That is true. Yeah, like, why do you need to keep a droid cold, bro? There's no rigamortis with a droid. They're just doing the CSI thing, man. You guys.

No, and also the other thing, they really, they didn't have to do this and what they did. When Dyn's like, hey, when he's look at that computer screen, he's like, hey, yo, zoom in on that. Flip it.

Zoom in. All right. Zoom in a head. It was very tough. It was very tough. I see that episode of psych like a hundred times, bro. I promise you, man. I like it.

All right. Sue, man. Okay, we've got two episodes left. What has to happen, Charles? How much is riding on these two episodes? Oh, man. I'm going to be very honest. I think if they don't land this plane,

Star Wars is in a lot of trouble, just in terms of like the thing that Star Wars had that the MCU hasn't had is like, we were always like, but the Mandalorian, the Mandalorian, it was almost a given that it was going to be great. And if I, if I, if this season leaves a bad taste in people's mouths, I think that a lot of the fans will start being like, why are we still doing this?

I think Asoka has a good chance of like getting people back on board, but I honestly don't want to know what Disney Plus is like without a flagship show. And I'll ask you this, Van. Do you think that the Mandalorian can keep being Disney Plus's flagship show if a lot of fans are kind of like, this is whatever? I don't, it's not as important as I thought it was. You know what? I think, I don't think that the Mandalorian ever really was.

I think this season was solidity. identifying the Mandalorian as the flagship show. I think it was the show that most people were interested in, but I think this season was a coronation of the Mandalorian as a show that Disney Plus, and to be honest with you, Star Wars could really, really lean into. And we have to look at it if we take a step back and we look at what Star Wars has done on Disney Plus. You've had this show, you've had Andor, you've had the book of Boba Fett, and you've had Obi-Wan. Each one of those shows has its own specific strengths and specific failures.

Obi-Wan had high highs, but overall didn't feel like it did enough to justify its existence. Andor was a perfect show that wasn't able to set itself apart in terms of the viewership to be able to really, really drive the Disney engine. The Mandalorian is the most viewer-friendly show with the characters that we most remember with one of the hottest stars in Hollywood right now. However, there's both creative and consumer-based stuff here, because the show isn't drawing the numbers that they thought that it would draw. And this is from the outset, and people aren't liking it as much. So I think this season was more of their opportunity to make it the surefire flagship show

than it was actually reiterating that. And so, you know, it's an interesting question that you ask. I don't think that, I think that this season, that this season of the Mandalorian, unless it were to, I think it's a good season of TV, but with two episodes left, it's not going to reinvent the will. There's not anything that's going to be funny. fundamentally change unless they pull a rabbit out of their hat.

So it'll be interesting to see how we feel about the whole thing after this. I don't want to make too much out of it. But I think, like everyone else, I thought that we would be in a different situation than we are now. And I'm liking the, I'm liking season three of the Mandalorian. And also, I want to be clear, too, like respect to all the creators. I know I've been very, very down on this episode. I think that John Favreau, Dave Filoni, Bryce House Howard, Rick Femuniamondi, like, They have done great stuff.

I'm very down on the season, but also I'll be real. You said this earlier in the season, Van. It's very, very hard to follow up something that was a cultural phenomenon. There's only, it's only down from here. And that's not, I'm not trying to be overly negative. But like, how can you ever match just our first feelings

about Baby Grogu or even that second season? it's, I think it's, it's not impossible, but it's almost impossible. Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah. I mean, for me, it's, uh. Jesus Christ, it's like a fucking funeral. Gosh, geez, man. Listen, this show is fine.

Like, it's like, God, did you hear Jomi right there? Guys, I've never seen Jomey like this. Charles, uh, Steve, give me a pew-poo. You know, we're not, we're not, why are you? Woo! Woo! Why are we having to do it, Charles. Come on, get into it, Charles.

Woo! Let's go. Here's a day, man. It's 2016. It's LeBron of the Cavs coming back to Oakland, down 3-1. There's a shot. There's a shot that these final two episodes can blow us out of water. And we hear talking like, man, remember episode six?

Who even cares, man? Those are two episodes were killer. We've seen it before. It could happen. It could happen. We could be eating our words next episode. God, we could. Yeah.

You got, I'm fine. It's you two. Like, I'm, I'm fine. It's fine. Everything's a great. Honestly, this season is like the Dallas Mavericks. Like, they fight you to just get into the playing. Oh, no, no, no.

You don't say, Boca Tan is really, Kyrie. No, that. No, that's, she's Kyrie. No, don't do that. Respect. No, oh my God. Respect. Hey.

Respect. Hey. Oh, God. I'm going to be real with you, bro. That's not, not genius, dog. Hey, bro, hey, bro, I'm telling you, bro, I'm telling you when I'm talking about fucking Charles Holmes,

bro, I'm talking about a special brain and a different type of cultural critic. I tell niggas this all the time, y'all not fucking with this nigga. Like, it is, bro, that's not, look, I can't say that they've gone 4 and 11, but that's not, not true. All right, I'm not saying, I don't,

but if you believe that the show Because you think you have a book of time. A lot of offense, right? A lot of offense. A lot of offense. Sacrifice is defense. Yeah. I don't know.

It's real. I don't see it that way. Brunson, it's like you like, they like, they like, will be good. We'll be good. Fourth to 11th. It's tough. For people who do think that, that's kind of perfect. The playoffs are here.

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Find yours at Target today. All right, nerd news a minute. All right, three trailers across Spider-verse, Secret Evasion, Blue Beetle. Charles, give us your rundown. All right, so wait, we go on one by one or whatever you want. All right, so go one by one across the Spiderverse to borrow a quote from Jomey. Special, all right?

I'm hyped. I was always like, I don't know if a sequel can match the first one, but after this one, I was like, goddamn, this looks good. But I have to make a plea. And Van, as someone I respect on conversations about race, I want to ask you this. As a comic book people,

do we need to stop pitting our black brothers against the Mexicans because we already got that shit in Wakanda forever. You know what I'm saying? And in this, they got fucking Miguel O'Hara like looking like he's about to say the N.

Like, it's rough out here. Like, why they always put in us again, why they always been in Black brothers against our Brown brothers? So I actually thought this, right? So, you know, I actually thought this. It's not good, bro. I don't, I'm serious.

I understand. the Namor Black Panther thing but then you know we laughed about Dr. Umar and some of the but that stuff is real bro and and it's not

and maybe it's because you know we live out here in LA Jomi knows there have been times we are in an unprecedented time in my opinion of black brown love shout out to the brown bag podcast shout out to Duno

shout out to Ledy well I love yo Shay Primo. Make sure you watch that shit on Amazon coming soon. Shout out to my

Latino brothers and sisters. Yeah. You know, specifically my Mexican brothers and sisters, I don't,

nah, it should be really, really what it should have been was Namor and Shuri against the guy from the CIA. What's his name?

Everett Ross. Eric Ross. No, it should have been them against Eric Ross and Vow. That's what it should have been.

It should, but yeah, You're right. It's kind of like a thing. It's like, yeah. It's okay. It doesn't have to be against a black guy. We don't like it.

We're getting along? You know what I'm saying? We're getting along. It's fine. No, it was a great trailer. It was a great trailer. But I was starting to thinking, I'm like, we're one black movie away.

Like, if Blue Beetle comes out and the villain is a black person, I'm like, all right, we got a timeout. We got a recess. Yeah. No, we're not doing that anymore. We're like, we're not, I'm not about to walk down the street. and have somebody go, yo,

fuck you, USA, Blue Beatles said so. You know what I mean? You know, like, we, like,

like, like, like, you know, we, we, like, we're getting, like,

we're getting along. Y'all don't, y'all don't, gentlemen, you know, y'all, when I was, when I was,

when I first got here, it was, it was, it was like, not great. You know what I'm saying? It's come a long way. It's come a long way.

Yeah. And I'm, I'm, man, yeah, man, we, Um, okay, uh, Jamie, your thoughts, the three trailers.

So, hey, if you go our YouTube channel right now, you can see our conversation about sugar invasion and blue beetle, you know, so go to the ringer YouTube and check those out. For a cross-spotiverse, you know, obviously, man, was locked in from the jump, you know, they do a really good job of, like, setting the tone, but yet showing that world. And it's so beautiful and so majestic.

I can't wait to jump back in. My thing with this trailer, and this is between me and Kevin Feige, you know, that's my guy, you know what I'm saying? He's been supplementing my income for years now, okay? But we have to have a conversation, right? So Kevin Faggy loves to describe that this MCU is Earth 616. That's his favorite thing to do. He's talking about the universities. He's like, man, this is Earth 616, this and this, yada, yada, yada.

even though for the real that know that been into trenches for years we know that really this is Earth 1-9-999 right that's how it's been known that's what it's been said and so in this trailer when Miguel is talking about Dr. Strange and the little nerd

from Earth 1-999 I'm like they's locked in see Kevin you're not you're not seeing it my brother you got to open your third eye and understand what this is right stop confusing the people okay it was great that they gave a shout out to like the real like MCU you know how it connects to this movie I think that's very interesting

but all I can think about was like thank you movie for confirming that Earth 616 that's the main comics continuity Earth 19999 that's the MCU let's split that let's like not stop stop confusing people because it's we don't have to do this it's a doion you know that's what I thought I got to be serious. You've been killing it this episode,

but that, like, that little chunk right there, you're scaring the hose. Like, it was... No, man, you got a lock, man. It was... You got a lock, man. You can't be out here

confusing people. Kevin's my guy. You feel me? But I'm not going to let this slide. I'm not going to let... I'm not going to let the disrespects lie. We've been out here confusing people for years. Like, oh, what's Earth's 16?

is it the comics? Is it, is it the, like, no, man, let's like, let's get this thing straight. Jomi, like, talk about why this is so important to you. Because, again, we want these things to be accessible to people. We want people to be able to, you know, watch these things, get into these things. And I'd be like, wait, I thought that was Earth 6th once. You know what I mean? Like, it's, and it's very simple.

It's a very simple delineation that we've made in the past. But for whatever reason, Kevin Faggie has a, such a hard on for calling the main MCU Earth 616, which is like just not true. Nobody would do that. If you know your stuff, right? You would call it Earth 1-999. It's like, stop being weird.

I'm scaring the hose. He's scaring the hose, man. Kevin Biden is scaring the hose? How do you not notice? Whoa, those are fighting words. Oh, my God. Those are fighting words. I'm serious about it.

I'm so serious. Stop confusing people. What if there was like another like eight podcasts called the Midnight Boys? I mean, we'd be out here like, nah, man. We're the real Midnight Boys. And people were like, nah, man, it's cool. We can just call every podcast with three black men and one white dude, the Midnight Boys. Because that's just what we do.

No, there's got to be delineation in these things, man. Stop confusing the people. Stop being weird. Yeah. God damn. I didn't know we was going to get that deep. We are, what the fuck? They don't call me the expenditure for nothing, man.

There you go, brother. Okay, well, explain the secret evasion trailer. I mean, we talked about this on the YouTube, the Ring of Verse Roundup. You guys can go see us, discuss it. But so we want to hear from Chuck right now. It's a Chuck clear out. What did you think about the secret evasion trailer?

My MCU was black. My Lambo is blue. This shit looked fire, bro. Like, I'm not going to lie, the MCU been down bad. It's been, it's been rough out here, okay? Samuel L Jackson might be the one to bring it back. This trailer looks. This trailer looked good.

What about it? like so much. I think after them trying to go so big with these, I am really interested in a smaller story, getting back to those Captain America stakes. I think having an actor like Samuel L. Jackson, we're going to be real. He's never been allowed to cook as Nick Fury, in my opinion. He's always been, he's seasoning. And you're like, oh, man, it's dope. He's here. But this is Samuel L fucking Jackson. And when in this trailer, I'm just like, man, this is going to be people. spies talking in rooms. We got a little alien, Amelia Clark's in this bitch.

Like, this shit's going to be fire. And if this hurts my, like, if this hurts me, if I have to eat my words, I'm done out here. Like, you know what I'm saying? You might have to get Kai up in here to replace me for any MCU content. This is, like, this is the final time where I'm going to be,

like, I believe in Figey, I believe in the mission, secret invasion. I thought the trailer was good. We talked about it on Ring and Verbalt. Roundup, which you guys should like listen to. It's on YouTube right now, but we'll do it again for people who didn't see it. We have a lot of fun. I think the movie looks, I think the stakes of the movie look perfect.

It looks like something that is a taught spy thriller that can have all kinds of ramifications. However, it's staying contained within its own story, which is very important for these, these different properties to do, in my opinion. That's why I loved World Warwick by Night so much. World War II was a great story, and it was great, but it seemed like it stayed contained within its own world and set up very, very clear rules, very clear stakes,

and it had a clearly different DNA. Secret invasion seems as if it will be probably closer to what we got with the Falcon and the Winter Soldier, but it still doesn't look like the Falcon and the Winter Soldier. it still feels like a unique experience amongst the, you know, Marvel shows. And I think that's very, very important. So look, I like all the trailers that we got.

That's where we're going to differ before we get out of here. Yeah, you didn't think you go. You don't think you go three for three, would you? Y'all can't lie about Blue Beetle. Okay. We're not trying to lie. We're just giving our opinions. Here's the thing.

I got to be real. When that shit released, everybody, It was like, oh, this looks dope. This looks crazy. I'm like, yo, man, what are we on? It looks like that budget was $10 million. This shit looks like some Power Rangers, beetleborg ass shit.

And like, shout out to all the creators. Like, shout out to all the creators. Like, it might still be great. But, like, watching it, I'm like, yo, man, what are we doing here? Like, I think his suit looks janky, if I'm going to be real. Like, it sometimes looks great.

times I'm like, yo, what is we doing? I'm worried about this one. Y'all can't fool me. Y'all can't fool a real nigga. So you're worried about the way Blue Beetle looks, the suit. You don't think it looks great to you. I mean, here's the thing.

The same worries that they internally had about Batgirl, I have about Blue Beetle. Where I'm like... Did you see, I'm about about to get into the Batgirl thing? I'm not dissing people that might need down the road. But it doesn't look like bad girl, bro.

Come on, man. No, no, here's my thing. Here's my thing. I think that this movie needed a bigger budget. This is nothing against the directors. There's nothing against the writers or the actors. It's all about, I'm like, hey, if this is technically, potentially, they keep doing this thing where I was like, this may be the first movie in the DCU.

If y'all show up and I'm like, yo, then make, like, spend. the money. How much do you think the budget of Blue Beetle was, just a roundabout guess? Honestly, an Arizona iced tea and, you know,

a back of... Oh, my God. A black and miles. It would be real. According to IMDB, the budget for Blue Beetle was $120 million. Ooh.

You could have put 61 on that thing. You could have... Yeah, we could have. You need to get me to the $200 million range a little bit. No, well, you can't, I don't think you can spend like... I think range.

Like a 180? I don't know if you could spend two, 200 million on a Blue Beetle movie. All right, so what's the, if we're, what would you say Blue Beetle is in terms of an MCU movie? Like, how much did they spend on Shang Chi? I'm gonna look it up right now.

Oh, that's got to be... All right, so I'm looking up Shang Chi right now. Between 150 and 200 million. That's what I'm saying. If this is, here's a thing, Blue Beetle is a character that I like a lot. This is a Latinx character. This is going to meet a lot.

to the culture. You know, this could have been a Black Panther type situation if you really wanted to do it right. I need a little bit more money because like some of those shots, I was like, hey. 120 is tough. 120 is tough.

That is definitely disappointing. They could have thrown up like 180. I think would have killed it. The back-go comparisons kill me. You guys feel like you need $120 million to make this movie. $120 million.

You want them to spend, if you want them to spend $180,000. If they can't make, I'm gonna be fucking all the way real, bro. If they can't make a good movie, a Blue Beetle movie for $120 million, God damn.

Not with a CGI character like that. And that's where I stand with Charles. Like a fully CJA character. you know how people be Like I'm personally not to keep into it But if you're gonna make a character Who's like a hundred percent CGI Like this Tom Holland Spider-Man

That's what you really need if we're being real You would have to be a fucking Embecile In my opinion to green light A Blue Beetle movie a brand new With a $180 million budget There's no fucking way What a $180 million

They gave it to Shang Xi That's the That's the MCU. That's the MCU. So what I'm saying with the MCU is, like, well, that's the MCU. The MCU has a different level of resonance with the fans. You know what I'm saying?

That's a, that's the MCU. It's different. It's not the same. What about 150? That's too much money. I think they should have gave, first, number one, I'll be real. I think, I think you got to be able to make this movie

$120 million, bro. Not, not, not like, it's a fully, like, half the time it's a fully CGI render. suit, bro. Br, bro. It's $120 million bucks. They got to be able to make the movie for $120 million bucks.

Look, the movie got, let's just talk about what's above the line. The movie got Zolo, Bruno, Harvey Ginn, George Lopez, Raoul Trujillo,

Trujillo, Susan Sarandon, great cast of people, George Lopez. There's not a $20 million check in there. It's not a $5 million movie checking there.

I'm just being for real. It's not a $20 million movie check. It's not a $5 million. million dollar movie check in there. It's probably not a $3 million movie check in there. Maybe you might throw suits around in $2.5, $3 million. They got to be able to make this movie.

If they, if they fuck this movie up, it's not because they needed more money, bro. $120 million. Oh, but here's what I think. Then, I know that this was out of James Guns' hand, but this technically is going to be the first, potentially be the first entry. You know, they could just say that, though. They could just say that.

Yeah, but if it sucks, they're going to be like, hey, they're gonna pop. Yeah. You know? They, there's no, even in his statement, like, it was no commitment. He was like, yeah, man, we'll see how this goes. If you guys like it. Cool.

If not, you know what I mean? Like, it was very non-committal. Mulfockees have been saying that the flash, they like, hey, yo, I saw the flash. That shit looked dope. I need to hear, I need to hear more celebrities. We need to get Tom Cruise to see Blue Beetle. You know what I'm saying? It's how I really trust them.

Not going to trust the gas Until Tom Cruise Sees it All right This is crazy Yeah Y'all y'all You're fucking out of here, bro

Like y'all I'm telling you man 20 million more dollars No I mean if 100 million dollars Can't solve any problems What's another 20

Man and y'all don't know How they'd be wasting money bro Like that's why I was the worst producer bro No more chips. You know what I'm saying? You think

like you're like like like no more. No more chips. I'm paying for this myself. Like no more chip. Wait, you were the dad. You was the dad from everybody hates Chris on. What? You was like.

We pay. We pay for them. We pay for the shit on our own, yeah. Like no more like no. You'll need no fucking. You'll need no fucking. There was no border brothers. It was.

No. You need those Doritos. Like, what the fuck? Go get the off-brand shit. Like, oh, I got a snack bag. You were seeing them Ux chips? No, it was fine. It was fine.

It was only a six-day shoot. I'm saying, but like, I'm just saying when it's your money that's being used in one of these things, what you realize is how much everything costs, right? And what I realize is somebody gave me, first of all, that's stupid. These filmmakers are four,

five, six times, 10 times, 15 times the filmmaker that we are. It's not even close. This guy, the director here did Charm Kitty's Charm City King's an amazing movie. Tell you right now, $120 million is enough to make a movie, especially with a film like this.

Now, the Flash movie is $200 million, bigger expectations, wider story. For this origin story movie, I personally think 120 is super fucking generous. Super generous. Man. Bro, generous, dog. How much would you give me to make my rom-com movie?

You can make that just $30 million. You could do a rom-com for $30 million. You don't have a bids. You don't have stunts. I'm going to be real with you. I'm going to be real with you. Really? You could do it for five, Jomey.

Like, bro, you could do it for five. But what if I wanted to, like, get Amelia Clark, you know what I'm saying? Emma Thompson. No, you got to. Give her back in. You got to go to NYU, get an acting student. Give a video. How much was Emily the criminal?

Let's see. Oh shit. They made Emily the criminal for $1.5.2 million. Dude the fuck I'm talking about. You know? That movie is amazing. Wow. They be fucking, bro.

That movie is amazing, yeah. I would have thought the budget was like $5 million, $7.5 million. For your wrong com, Jomey, we shoot that bitch in Baton Rouge. They roll out. I'm serious. $5 million, bro. $5 million. I can take that.

Get that. Yeah, that's easy money. We got to go. That's a wrap. Follows on socials, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, TikTok. Save Jomi's job for the rom-com. We're trying to give them to $5 million.

Tomorrow's Thursday, and we're going to be back. We're going to be giving you our reactions to the Super Mario Brothers movie. Swing your arm. From side to the side, come on. It's time. Don't go, dude, Mario. This Friday and every Friday,

the House of R is going to give you their deep dive into the latest episode of The Mandalorian. I cannot wait. hear what Mal and Joe have to say on Friday. Oh, yeah. I really can't. I haven't spoken to either one of them. They are the best, but I can't wait to hear what they have to say. Every Wednesday, we're back right here. We're going to be giving you our instant reactions to season three of the

Mandalorian credits. Our producer is Steve, the architect Alman, who was noticeably quiet on the second half of this podcast. I'm not what the fuck is going on. Steve, you all right? No, I'm good, man. We're good. Okay. Jomi, the Explanatoron, is on social. Hashtag The Joan DeLorean. That one might stick. That one is good. The Jones Delorian. That's good work, Steve.

An additional production comes from Arjuna. Ram Cappal. Charles, sign of something. 120 is enough for Blue Beetle. Will Mando stick the landing? Nobody knows. But what I am sure of is Jones will always scare the hose. Yes.

Do you guys remember the Mario, the Mario dance song? Are you guys too young? When the first movie came out? No, that was the Mario TV show with Captain Lou Albaeno, WWF legend, WWE legend as Mario. Swing your arms from side to side. Come on, it's time to go do the Mario. You don't remember that?

That was, that was like, it was, you guys don't remember. Van is old. Where is this in terms of your hierarchy of raps for, from your childhood, like TMT rap, TMNT rap, this. See, to me, I wasn't, you know, back in the, now everybody, whenever you raping is not hardcore, uh, whatever, people go, ask corny. Back in the, and it is now, but back in the day,

it was cool to see Captain Lua Bano rap at the end of the show. Like, he was Mario, and, you know, he was doing it because it was a Mario cartoon. Anyway, what to fuck you guys? You guys can't appreciate that. Feels like every profit claims real protein these days. But real doesn't start on a label. It starts at the source. Like Real California milk from California farm families,

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