The Ringer-Verse - The ‘Mandalorian’ Season 3 Finale Deep Dive | House of R

Episode Date: April 21, 2023

It’s time for Mal and Jo to take one more dip into the living waters of Mandalore for the Season 3 finale of ‘The Mandalorian.’ They dive deep, discussing everything in the episode from the fate of the darksaber to Gideon’s clones and Grogu’s adoption. They also talk about their thoughts on the season as a whole. Later, they are joined by Ben Lindbergh to give out some reading recommendations ahead of ‘Ahsoka’ (2:43:00). Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Guest: Ben Lindbergh Associate Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Sean Fennessey, one of the hosts of the Prestige TV podcast. HBO's Barry is back for a fourth and final season, and that means I'll be back recapping the show with co-creator and star Bill Hader to dive deep on the themes, scenes, and major moments in the series. Bill will provide insight into how every episode was made and why it's ending. New Prestige TV Barry recaps will go live every Sunday night when the episode ends, so make sure you're subscribed to the Prestige TV podcast wherever you get your podcasts. For adults with Crohn's Disease or Or

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Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more, or visit trimfairadio.com. Episode is brought to you by Prime. Obsession is in session. And this summer, Prime originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories, and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice. Off campus, L. every year after, the love hypothesis, Sterling Point, and more. Slow burns, second chances, chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting.

Watch only on Prime. Grogo is my apprentice. He is no longer a foundling. Add him to the song. He is too young to speak, so he is too young to take the creed. He must remain a foundling. If his parent gave permission, couldn't he then become a Mandalorian apprentice? Yes, but his parents are far from here. If they are even alive.

Then I will adopt him as my own. this is the way. This is the way. Let it be written in song that Dinh Jarin is accepting this foundling as his son. You are now Dinn-Grogu, Mandalorian apprentice. This is the way. Greetings and welcome into the Ringerverse here on the Ringer podcast network. I'm Mallory Rubin and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only back to the living waters.

But also to join us on the ringer's Nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. Joining me today, telling me she needs me to be brave for her, okay? It's my house afar. We're keen. Co-host, Joanna Robinson. Podcast is an audio art, you know? This is like a, you know, fine, fine, crafted piece of audio. audio content. But I do wish our listeners have been able to see our faces as that introductory

clip played. It was the symphony of us awes and owes. Anyway, yeah, that was a little amazing journey through that adoption ceremony. Thrilled to be here. Just delightful to hear those Grogookus right at the top of the pod. No other way to start, frankly. We're here, of course, to dive a deep as deep as where that mythosaurus nestled, Joe, into the Mandelorians' season three finale. But before we seek shelter from the scorching flames by nestling under Grogu's protective force bubble, some programming reminders. The midnight, boys.

Poo-bue-bue! Already have a wonderful finale pod up for you. Of course, listen to that, enjoy that, if you haven't yet. Guys will be back with you. next week for a midnight court. They are doing an Infinity War versus Endgame midnight court. Without question, that will be a can't miss podcast. Really quickly, Mallory.

I was talking to our lovely producer, Arjuna, about this earlier today. On the count of three, do you want to do what your answer to this question is, Infinity War versus Endgame? I just think it's, yes, sure. But then I have them, of course, like a whole caveat spiel. No caveats. No caveats. They will be.

My MCU ranking is established canon. I feel confident saying this on the count of three. It's easy for me. One, two, three, end game. But they're both in my top four. That's the thing. So I don't think it's like arguing in favor of one even against the other. And ultimately, I think end game is a bigger achievement and was a much harder thing to pull off.

I just, it's going on. We can't do it. But like, part of my heart is like we should crash this. the midnight court and join the fray. But no, no, we'll let the boys tussle it out next week. We can never, we'll never stop talking here on the Ring of Verse about how we rank the Infinity Saga films. That's the great news.

That's the great news. I was just saying to Arjuna, I think I need to, like, re-rank because it's been a minute, and I wonder if my opinions have changed. Winter Soldier. Still number one. Number one. Yeah. That's what I said.

I was like, Winter Soldier number one after that. Do we have questions? I'm going to see. We will also be back with you next week. Troops course time again, Joe. We're talking magical blades. I'm so excited for this. This is a perfect opportunity.

I'm just going to hop the queue here and mention our email address, hobbes and dragons at gmail.com. You guys have time to email us in advance. We got a lot of post emails after our last trope's course on the lone wolf and cub trope. But if you guys want to contribute in advance to the magical blades, It's like magical blaze, magical weapons. Right. We are going to be talking about the cameras.

Yeah. Hammers and wands and all that sort of stuff is going to be in the mix. And then like maybe to make sure, based on what we saw today, an important segment on like when it's good to abandon those weapons. You know what I mean? We'll talk about that. But yeah, inspired by the Dark Sabre, may it rest in pieces. We will be talking about magical weaponry and all of its tropeitude next week. I'm really thrilled.

I love the last Troops course episode. Me too. One of my favorites. It was absolutely a joy, and I can't wait to keep the series going. I'm so looking forward to next week. You mentioned already the email. How else can people follow everything that we're doing here? How can they follow what we're doing over on the prestige TV feed? How can they follow all of it, Joe? Gosh, I'm so glad you asked me. I've been waiting for you to ask. Listen, if you want to subscribe to the Ring ofverse and the Prestige TV feed, that I would be thrilled if you did that. That would just solve all of our problems. But like, let's say you're not ready to commit yet. I mean, what are you waiting for, but sure. Follows and social, right? Jomey crushing it all over the place on TikTok, on Instagram, on Twitter, on YouTube, at the ringer or at ringerverse. That is something that you can do. And yeah, Hobbits and Dragons at Gmail.com.

We're still getting Apple emails. We're still getting very thoughtful theological emails. We're getting all kinds of great stuff at that. And also, by the way, sometimes people send me emails for the Midnight Boys. I'm just going to let you guys know. I don't usually forward those. You don't tweet at them. This is a house of our email address, not a Midnight Boy email address.

I'm just saying. Now, you've already heard us. Play a long clip from the episode. Mention multiple things that happen in the episode. Should we have said this thing before any of that? Maybe. And yet, here we are. the deep dive a couple days after the episode airs, you know what you're going to be hearing about.

And yet, it's time for the spoiler warning. Today's podcast will feature plot details from chapter 24 of the return, which is the season three finale of the Mandalorian. Aviod of it, Lod. Everything that's ever happened in the Mandalorian is on the table today. And everything that's ever happened in Star Wars is on the table today. Books? We'll be getting into a little bit of Legends canon.

We'll be chatting about books, comics, with our pal, Ben, Benjamin Lindberg later today. Radio plays? I don't know if those haven't been to Star Wars radio play. Fan fiction?

Who knows? Oh, I mean, always on the table. Absolutely. Okay. Chapter 24, the return directed once again by

EP Rick Famayua, who also directed last week's episode and the season premiere this episode, which is a tight 41 minutes including the previously

on the intro and the credits written by showrunner, creator, John Favro. Joanna, let's start with the opening snapshot. Joanna Robinson, first of your name, Din Robinson. Quick overall impressions of the season three finale goes without saying, but we'll just say it.

We are going to speak at length today about all of the things that we really enjoyed about the finale, all the things that didn't work about the finale. Same goes for the season. We will parse all of this in great detail and great length. this we go. But a little moose-boosh. Overall impressions. A little taster. A little tasting many. A little taste. A little taste of the take. What did you think of the finale? And how are you feeling about season three overall? Um, the, I will say this, when I watch episodes of the Mandalorian or any of these midnight Disney Plus drops, I usually watch them either at midnight or

first thing the following morning. And as I texted you this week, I had to put my phone like in a hole in case like anyone, uh, texted me because I watched it in the morning after. And like, I will say my, my initial watch through, I was pretty disappointed. Not because we'll talk about fan theories. Not because like fan theories didn't play out at all. That's not really the thing. I just didn't feel like particularly moved or inspired by anything that happened. It just felt like um, things happened and then it was over. Um, rewatching it again and again in prep for the pod. And then like, digging into some reach. I always enjoy it more, the more I think about it. And so there I found things to really enjoy some really interesting, thoughtful things happening here and there in the

margin of what I would say is my least favorite Mandalorian finale of my least favorite Mandalorian season. We have some good listener emails about the season three overall, but I just want to get your Emoos Bouch take on all of this. Yeah. You know, I feel about the finale, I think, in miniature the way I feel about the season overall. There were things in it that I liked a lot. There are certain parts of it that brought me an immense amount of joy and like moved me to tears. And then there are things about it that I found so confounding.

I am really looking forward to talking it through with you today on a very long podcast. I think that this was an incredibly uneven season that feels even more uneven because we got a couple episodes, particularly episode two and episode seven that showed us how all of the different threads and all of the different ingredients,

this very clear, central, deliberate focus on our core pairing and also this incorporation of more figures like Bo and the wider Mandalora lore could work not only in harmony, but immensely compellingly. And so the episodes where we didn't get that, I found frustrating.

and I think that overall the finale ended in a place that I'm really happy to be. Back with Din & Grogo, the Din & Grogo stuff in this episode, I loved. But it left me in a way even more confused about the balance and focus of the season to this point. So, real mixed bag. I think the season power ranking for me is an easy 2-1-3. That's not a particularly hard ranking since we're talking about. rankings a little while ago. I'm really fascinated to see how this finale

and this season overall hold up over time as we have a little bit more clarity about the nature of the connected universe for this Mandoverse timeline. Because that's like a lot of the dissonance that I'm personally experiencing as a fan, like where that lives still, is that I think often the show is at its best

when it is not attempting to partake in the connected universe that it is now definitionally at the heart of. And yet I also am drawn to, those connections. I love when characters pop up at each other's shows, I'm looking forward to the continued examination of the sequel run-up that we got in this season, the rise of the First Order, the crumbling of the New Republic, et cetera. It's just as, I think, a balance and calibration thing. And I think, like, the endpoint, the outcome, where we got, what happened,

often tracks make sense, and is actually a thing we were hoping for. It's just about the execution and how we got there. And this was a season that just didn't, didn't master that as nearly as deftly as the prior seasons had. I think that, um, an issue that I have, shout out Grogu though. He rules. I mean, what it, what an uncontroversial take, Melody. I am brave enough to say here today on this podcast that I like Grogu. Wow. If, if, if, ever Mallory moves her head, like one million. to the left or right on this, on this, let's call it a Zoom, even though it's not. I get to see like Grogu on the top shelf of her bookcase behind her.

I think something that we've been talking about a little bit, but becomes more and more obvious. For me, it's not a proliferation of shows. I'm fine with like the expansion of the Star Wars Disney Plus universe. Love content. We do love content. We love job security. But, I mean, I think that something that we've been paying close attention to is this idea of like artistic teams behind various things, right? Like if Andor feels like an outlier, it's because it was pretty much Tony Gilroy's thing that he got to do over in his corner, right?

And if we feel like some soulfulness, some depth is missing or cohesion is missing from the season, it is perhaps because Dave Faloni was focusing on making Asoka. And so, you know, the formula, creative formula behind the camera is different for this season. And that results in, you know, it is a reason why last week felt strong is because Dave Faloni is accredited co-writer on that episode. And so, perversely or not, as, like, I think a lot of people are taking stock of how do we feel, where is our anticipation level for future star, stuff like that. We had this, like, celebration podcast we did. and I told you I was very like cautious about Asoka.

I'm now more optimistic about Asoka because I'm like, all right, if that's where Faloni was, you know, that's what had his heart and his mind, then I'm excited to see what that looks like. So I'm excited for Asoka now, which is coming in a few months. And I mean, I wasn't excited, but I was. I've never been more sure that Asoka will be the achievement of a lifetime. So I'm protecting my heart and I'm in a good, healthy place. Everything will be fine. That's fine. That's fine.

That's genuinely how I feel about it. I'm sure it'll all be fine. But I do want to take a couple of listener emails to take this beat to address this larger reckoning because mileage definitely varies. There are some people who are having just a great time with all the Star Wars content that love this season of The Mandalorian and then like love the Obi-Wan series. It's a fun finale to watch, by the way. The issue's not whether it's an entertaining and enjoyable 36 minutes.

It's when you stop to think about the character arcs and the code of etc. That some of the doubt seeps back in. So, yeah, I mean, I don't mean to speak for everyone when I say some people are having like a wobble moment with Star Wars, the way that, you know, similar to the wobble moment we're having with Marvel, perhaps right now. But plenty of people are. If our inboxes any judge, we got a ton of emails for people trying to analyze their

feelings around the season or their feelings for the largest Star Wars universe or like why they don't feel as excited as they once did. A lot of these come from like long time, died in the wool, Star Wars fans. Most people, I totally understand the instinct, but most people started their emails with their like bona fides to be like, I'm not one of these. It's Johnny come lately, Star Wars fans. I've been a fan since like blah, blah, and I get that because sometimes people say, who are you to have an opinion about this?

I say everyone gets to have an opinion. I think all opinion, yeah. All opinions is long as they're respectful and kind and well-intentioned or welcome. Completely agree. So this email, first email comes from out. Alex. We only have a few emails in this episode. Carlos, killing it. Thank you.

We only have a few emails in this episode. Very few, but they're long and they're very good, though. So, all right. So, this one comes from Alex, and his query is sort of, is the problem, quote, unquote, if you have one, with this season, the Mandalorians themselves. Okay? So Alex wrote, wanted to get the full season in before coming in hot. But are Mandalorians as a collective boring? Aside from any inconsistencies sub-season 1 or season 2 writing, et cetera, I just feel like this season was sort of set up to fail because Mandalorians, at least the ones we hang out with on a regular basis, are kind of boring and they really doubled down on a whole grip of them.

Don't get me wrong. I love our hymnbo DJ. I think he said DJ for Dinger and even though that's D.D., but I like it. So our hymnbo DJ. But he's best when playing opposite and off of a Muppet, take your pick from Grogu. who will, I can never pronounce that character's name, IG11, Quill, Quill, Quill, thank you. Quill, IG 11, Frog Lady, Bill Burst, Carwethers,

Mar-Wethers, Mock, Gideon, etc. He can be the straight man to the goofy pulp of the universe, and it provides both comedy of opposites and room for DJ to learn to grow and relax a bit. Star Wars has the weird thing where the way a species appears the first time extrapolates out to the entire unseen planet slash species. So because Boba Fett speaks in clipped stoicism and sci-fi nods, solemnly at people across a room in the original trilogy. Most Mandalorians, we see fit the same mold.

At least Miles Fave, Pasvizla, R-I-P, raise his voice every now and again to scream apostate. Obviously, there are exceptions. I'll admit I haven't made my way through Clone Wars. I did see the first Mandalore arc, but I really love rebels. Sabine is terrific. But I think she and those exceptions kind of prove the rule I'm trying to lay down. Those folks just seem like joyless buzzkills who have dope armor and jet packs with either not enough fuel to go to the corner store, or the fuel capacity to make it further than a Elon Musk rocket,

which brings you back to season three. It was a lot of DJ and the covert and Bo. And even Bo, who was a breath of fresh air where we met her, all helmetless and hijacking light cruisers, is now a steely-eyed and flinty-voiced aspiring leader with a helmet that comes off when it needs to and reveal her wig helmet. Even if they're, in theory, disagreeing,

you wouldn't be able to tell by their tone of voice. The fact that the injection of Giancarlo, serving up haunches of ham, gave the season some much needed verb towards the end, I think speaks to what I'm saying here. So a lot of caveats in here, I saw you sort of like shaking your head a little bit at one point. And I think maybe you were thinking of some of the animated mandolores that we've met and some of the variety of vassity that we've seen there. But if you take this as mostly like a, mostly a live action assessment, which is like we are assessing this season, which is a live action season, do you agree or disagree with what Alex is saying here or any thoughts or feelings you have about it? I think it's a great email.

Thank you, Alex. I disagree, but I think that is one more demerit for season three if people feel that way. Like that's a, that's a huge bummer because I don't think that you should, now, would I heartily recommend that everybody watch Clone Wars and Rebels? Of course I would. They're among my favorite Star Wars properties literally ever. But I don't think that you should have to watch 200 episodes. have at other series to be able to

appreciate the nuance and personality and variety and flair inside of a culture. And so I think that like, especially in a season that was so rooted around the divide between

Bo's camp and followers or former followers who became the followers again and the children of the watch and we explored these like fissures and fractures through those two groups. It almost,

I think, artificially enhanced this sense, even though it was attempting to showcase a contrast, this ubiquity of like all of Mandalorian culture, when so much of the fascinating stretches are with characters like Sabine who reject the idea of the warrior way entirely, a pacifist and so much of like what we always referenced.

Not a scrap of armor on her ever, you know? Easier to get in bed and fuck Obi-1 if you're not wearing any armor in my- Bad baby. I just thought I would put it in there because too sad. Bad baby, but I won't say, no squeezy, you know? Squeeze away, my beloved Obie. Okay, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, but in the squeeze away, my beloved obie is going on the merch, 100%. I support it fully. Obviously, Alex's

email toasted Sabine and how interesting she is. And I think, like, to his point, you could say, well, part of what makes Sabine so compelling is that she broke away from her Mandalorian family, from her Mandalorian roots. But again, like, our time with her and rebels allows us to explore the real nuance and dynamic

inside the family, inside the government that led to that rupture and then what the healing looks like. And like, when we end up meeting Sabine's father, he's an artist,

you know, and they're talking about painting and like there are just so many different aspects of, like, and I'll say like even our pals, the skiff crew.

One of the things is finale, I was very suspicious after the penultimate episode. Good stuff. After that moment in the surface cave, in this verdant lush landscape, one of the many returns that this episode called The Return gives us, I'm interested in spending more time with these people who have been here for years after the purge moving from cave to cave to try to make it work. So I, TLDR, I disagree with the email, but I think that it's like borderline tragic if people feel that way after season three of the Mandalorian. But I do think season three gives you reason to think that.

Definitely. And I do think that the original promise and premise of the show is DIN as this like, because I remember when the Mandalorian season one premiered and we did like, you know, rounds and rounds of junket interviews with various creators. And like, I was working with Anthony Bresden at any fair at the time. like the question we kept asking you was like, do you think it's a good idea to put your lead character in a helmet where we can't see his face all the time? What do you think about that? And they were like, you know, something that Falunian Favre were saying and Pedro would say, something like that is this idea of like, you know, the stoic gunslinger. The like, it's, you know, it's almost like taking Clint Eastwood's like frozen, like slit-mouthed

sort of stoic face and putting it in mask form. And then you, the viewer, can, sort of lay over any emotions that you want to on top of that. And so then if the idea is to take that very stoic hemden figure and have him bounce off incredible cuteness or comic relief or whatever the case may be, which is sort of Alex's point, that's a winning premise for a show as we loved the Mandalorian as it launches. When you then copy-paste that character out, which, like, I would agree. Like, I think Yarmor is really interesting. I like Pazzma Vizlah more than you do.

We love Bocahattan. Didn't miss that guy in the finale. Let me tell you. We love Boca Tan. But I don't disagree that, like, a lot of that stoicism and, you know, more and more helmeted-only figures makes me feel more, you know, and especially coming off of a season two that ends with that incredible performance from Pedro with the helmet off and that softening and that cracking open of the Mandalorian. And so just feel like we're regressing a bit into that stoicism

and not only that, but having stoic characters bounce off stoic characters. You and I've talked about this and we talked about it a little bit with The Last of Us and a few other things, this idea of the stoic and like what that character needs to bounce off of in order to make them interesting. So I see the larger point here. I don't think that it's a true of like, hashtag not all Mandalorians, but perhaps this particular collection of Mandalorians. Yeah. Can I claim to be super compelled by Ragnar and the legions of other nameless members of the

co- at least I know Ragnar's name and that like creatures like to eat him? I couldn't tell you even anything close to that about 90% of the groups of the co- and members of the covert. And so yeah, to your point. And I think, again, this is, I was going to say the compressed timeline, which I, again, is not actually a valid data point because the season is the same length as both of the prior ones, which didn't have this problem. But when the recruitment mission happens, the absence of the depth of examination and exploration in those conversations earlier in the season between the armorer

and Bocatan, which I think we will look back as like, it's not minute one. So maybe calling it an original sin is not right. But I think a sin that follows and lingers throughout the rest of the season in a way that we're still feeling in the finale. So you bring in like Axe and Co. And we're at the point where for the theme, the key logline of the season, Mandalorians are stronger together to land and to be true in a timely fashion for the finale

to beat Moth Gideon who also just returned. Everybody's just got to team up. And so there's like a thematic richness. But again, this like homogene that doesn't leave any room for an examination or exploration of how these people are different for what makes them distinct. One game of hollow chess and that, you know, it wasn't hollow chess, but, you know, like one game of chess. Right.

And that was a great scene. Yeah. We had had more moments like that. I loved that piece of shit acts. Well, but like I loved hisotic acts finale. Oh, my God. I loved his introduction, his reintroduction. A lot of people didn't like that fishy love story sequence, but I'm like, he's oozing personality in that.

And I really liked that. I think it's really notable, something that, you know, when we were. love. Well, when we were putting the notes together today, you're asking a question, but there's one Mandalorian that we get a lot of FaceTime with who is the fleet commander, right? And you were like, does this guy have a name? No. He doesn't have a name. He's fleet commander. And as we talked about last week, it's Survivor Captain and Survivor Scout, you know, so like, give us, give us, you know, if we're supposed to invest these Mandalorians, make them characters, give them names. Might be a good idea. Okay. Yeah. So being had a name was a person. Fenrow, we got to,

We got to know. Oh, my God. Femmerle when. All right. And then we get this email from Ralph. This is our second long-ish email, and then we'll sort of get into our breakdown. Whose question is more is the problem, Star Wars, or rather our expectations of what Star Wars should be. All right.

So Ralph writes, after listing his bona fides of long, long time, Star Wars fan, is just fine. There's story and lore and people we know and recognize, but it's typically not really all that polished. Oftentimes the stories will ask. terrific plot-centered questions that seem to be setting up more brilliant content. My example of this is The Force Awakens. I remember leaving the theater on opening night with more questions than answers, such as who is Ray and who is she waiting for? How is she a force user?

Who is Finn and where did he come from? How could he wield a lightsaber? Is he a force user? Who is Maz? How the hell did she get Anakin's lightsaber that fell with Luke's hand in Cloud City? Why is Kyle Wren so broody and angsty? Why did Luke sequester himself? I didn't care that we essentially got another movie about space Nazis and

a larger death star. But as time went on, we either got half-baked answers, seriously, Halby, again. Somehow. Or in the case of genuinely new and interesting characters like Finn and Maz, they completely ignored the questions. It seemed like the Disney approach of just rushing our heroes to safety and selling toys took precedence. There are outliers, of course, which for me act as a ballast, Rogue One, and or the end of Clone Wars, Rebels and the Bad Batch, and until this season Mando were all provocative and had the polish missing from the other productions. I'll point to Bad Batch in Andor in particular,

which gave me the terrific writing, directing, and twists that I'm looking for. They were unsafe, thought-inspiring, and left me wondering what was around every corner. As we all know, the season of Mando came right on the heels of both of those shows, sort of with Bad Batch. I think my mistake was thinking that we had turned a corner with Star Wars,

given how objectively terrific both season one of Andor and season two of Bad Batch were. I especially loved leaving Bad Patch. I cut out a spoiler here, folks. I especially love leaving Bad Batch at a point that felt unsafe, no bow tied around it, and seemingly appropriate, given the holistic story. So, Mallory, how do you feel about this idea of, like, expectations of, like, what a Star Wars property needs to be, how deep does it need to be, how complex,

how much does the shadow of Andor or something like Bad Batch loom over a Mandalorian season three? Okay. I'll I'll try not to go on too long and winding of a journey here and I'm famous for my brevity so I'm sure it'll be fine. Soul of wit. I don't also want to like project maybe my interpretation of Ralph's email

onto the email too much. I will say that this is for me like a two things can be true at once scenario. Of course. I agree that some Star Wars is just not very good. That's just objectively true. It's not like Star Wars has been batting a thousand the entire time that it's been in our lives.

I think often the story of Star Wars fandom is spending a lot of time looking forward to something. And then working through your feelings of disappointment on the way to some delayed appreciation that then becomes your defining experience. with the original thing. But I think that this is also a, like, what we would maybe, like, call, like, prime Star Wars versus, like, the whole Star Wars pool kind of read. Like, I think this is much more about the Skywalker saga and the movies than the overall Star Wars tapestry. And I just think there's so much great, deep, rewarding Star Wars out there, which Ralph's email acknowledges, right? whether that's the animated Philoniverse, which is among my favorites, I think there's a number of wonderful novelizations and comic runs. There is just more good Star Wars than disappointing Star Wars.

And I think what I was alluding to when I said, I want to be careful not to project like a different grittyque onto Ralph's email because I don't think this is what Ralph's saying, but I think other people say this. And so it made me think of it. I think it's good and fine and important to hold Star Wars to a high standard. And I think mileage can vary on this and that's fine. But for me at least, like I'm not content to go into a new Star Wars. Now, is it always a healthy thing to say this would be the defining masterpiece of Dave Flonnie's life and the defining experience for me as a fan? Probably not. It could be a little more balanced and measure than that. But if we shrug our shoulders and say, and again, I'll just keep saying this. I'm not saying this is what Ralph is saying,

but if one, yeah, if one were to say like, well, it's Star Wars. Like, why should we expect it to be good? I just don't feel that way about it. And I think that we as fans who devote a lot of our time to this deserve quality stories in return, but also that that very line of inquiry diminishes. I get kind of mad about this because like, and I'm sorry, Ralph, this isn't about you. It's not you about Ralph.

It's not you. Yeah. There's a connection to a larger, like, do we need to think so seriously about fantasy stories? hive mind like to that that I just find honestly kind of insulting. Well, it's anathema to exactly what we do here, which is think deeply about genre content. Yeah. And I think like you can find, not only can you find in genre stories, excellent literary craftsmanship and classic archetypal themes and a constantly like progressive modern context,

but you find community, you find perspective. Like the reason that we spend so much time in these worlds is because they have the ability to unlock something about our everyday lives for us in a way that feels new and fresh and vibrant and candy coded and up in the sky, right? So like if we go into it saying it's just Star Wars, we're taking something away from what Star Wars could be and from ourselves as people who spend a lot of time in this world. And so like I just can't do that. And I don't think that's how we should approach the stories, expecting them to just be okay. We deserve better than that. Again, this is not about Ralph, but I think... Not about you, Ralph.

I'm so sorry. I think when people approach me, as they have in the last like 24 hours with it's not that deep or you're holding it to too high a standard. I'm like, it's not that deep is... This is not how I feel about anything, right? But I think that with Star Wars specifically... You find so much meaning here. Well, with Star Wars specifically, and I would say with like the original trilogy and with and with Mando season one and season two,

there is that, you know, both Lucas and Favreau and Faloni are taking their inspiration from like samurai films and gunslinger legacies and stuff like that. And all of those stories are often kind of spare and kind of intentionally general that allows space, again, sort of referencing that conversation about a stoic,

allow space for us as lovers of story to sort of flood our own emotions into the spaces. You know what I mean? Like if you watch a Kurosawa film, like, it's often very, it's quiet. It's, you know, it's, like, nature shots. Like all this, you know, is there something like, or, you know, a Western. It's just like, it's not known for its sparkling dialogue. And so I think that we're going to get to another email later that that was really interesting this idea of like the generality of the original trilogy of Star Wars and like what is

the force, like that general idea of what the force is makes sparks our imagination in a really exciting way and allows us to inject ourselves into a galaxy far far away or feudal Japan or the dusty roads of, you know, Nevada or whatever. So I think that I love that about the first couple seasons of the Mandalorian. And I think that that depth, that sort of soul and poetry, I think I'm going to ascribe a lot of that

to Philoni in those first couple seasons. And like even as we reset at the end of, you know, a lot of people when they're trying to like silver line this episode of the season, if they didn't like it that much, the positive thing in front of them, everyone is like, well, at least it seems like they're resetting

to the premise that we liked in the first place, which is the Adventures of Den and Grow. gougo bouncing around the galaxy. And I agree, but I think with that, you need, like, if you take an episode of, like, Sanctuary one, we reference all the time from season one. Yeah. And will again today. Nothing could be simpler than that premise.

It's just the seventh samar, right? Like, it's the easiest, spareest premise at all. There's a weight to it. There is a motion to it. There's poignancy to it that I think I found lacking in a lot of the courts. corners of this season is what I would say. So, you know, and, and, like, you would never look at something like Andor and say it's not that deep, right? But I would compare, we were talking about, like, Saturday morning cereal versus, like, the granola that is and or. But I would compare

something, like, let's take the sequel trilogy. We're not even, we're not even talking about Ryazzo Skywalker because we talk about it enough. Let's just take Force Awakens versus the Last Jedi, unconstitutional opinion coming for me on The Last Jedi, right? Which is that it's great. I love both of those films. I love both of those films a lot. I don't think The Force Awakens has nearly as much on its mind as The Last Jedi does, but I still really love it. So, like, it doesn't have to be crowded with, like, dense concepts for me to love a Star War. But it does have to spark the imagination, draw in the emotions, all that sort of stuff.

And for some people, this season the Mandalorian did. I'm not trying to discount those people. They exist. I've heard from you. You exist. I see you. For me, it was lacking. So that's sort of where I am at the end of the day as we make our way to the return. This episode is brought to you by Sweet Green. The day doesn't ask for permission. Lunch window? Gone before you saw it coming. You deserve a break that actually satisfies. Sweet Green's new wraps have got you. Real ingredients? Zero shortcuts. Everything you love in one hand. Think Green Goddess. chicken, garlic aoli, crumbled bacon, corn salsa, 40 grams of protein. Made to keep up with whatever comes next. New sweetgreen wraps hit different. Order now at order.com. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, wishes, and misses.

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Boar's Head committed to craft since 1905. Is it time? Is it time to talk about the finale? Is it time to bathe in the living waters? I was never once ready for that. Never won. Oh boy.

Joe. We have a lot to get to today. We will start where the episode starts. I say start the deep time. Oh, I like that mug. Beautiful. You've said that before. Yeah.

It's just always catches my eye. I feel like I should give it to you. You love it so much. It's great. Would you want it as a deep crack down one side? But, you know, that's where the light gets in, as they say. Wow. It was beautiful.

It was beautiful. Did you reforge it in the Great Forge? of my heart. All right, let's do this. Okay. The battle for Mandelor. We pick up in the season finale right where we left off last week. Bo is leading the ground troops away from the base.

She is updating our buddy Axe woves. Gideon's alive. He's using their home world as his secret base. Whoops. Axe, we're going to need you to evacuate everyone from the fleet before Gideon's forces attack, use the capital ship as a decoy. Beau says, can't beat him in the air, have to beat them on the ground. Now, because these are Mandalorians and they all wear jet packs, the ground is also the air.

It's just, it's just lower. Lower air. X, meanwhile. Do you remember that famous Winston Churchill, which is like, we will meet them on the beaches. We'll meet them on the lower air. Joanna, Axe is literally flying into space. Quite literally, he is flying into space. and on the one hand,

I thought this looked incredibly cool. Very cool. Genuinely, it was just visually scintillating. Rocketeer vibes. Loved it, yes. On the other, Chekopf's jet pack limitations

from earlier in the season, a classic, why put it in the season at all if it didn't end up mattering in this finale at all? The jet packs never became a thing. Everyone's fuel lasted and ax flew up to the light cruiser.

Just one more knock on. Pass Visla's legacy. Let me tell you. I'm beginning to suspect that much like Dave Filoni Chekhov himself was not involved in the writer's room this season. Checkup was off

working on something else while they were writing Middlerian season 3. Tied up with other projects. Busy with yellow jackets. Oh yeah. A reminder to check out our yellow jackets coverage on the prestige TV podcast. There is a Czechovian there sure is.

There sure is. So we had a lot of fun last week talking about who the spies and the titular spies might be. We'd love to have fun

on the internet. You love to say hold a theory closely. So none of the spies that we talked about were the spies and that's okay. There were still, even in this finale,

a couple moments where it felt like they were setting up the axe herring in particular. When he flies out of Com's range And he's like, understood, I have my quarters. And he's crackling out.

I'm just like, yeah, this fucker is about to reclaim the light cruiser and bring it to Daddy Gideon. That's not what happened. And that is, that is okay. That is fine. We will circle back to the Axis Not a Spy thing later. I'm going to take a moment on fan theories later. But I mean, like, I did have a moment. I was like, it was so funny watching it because I was like, oh, we, no, we.

Oh, we? There were a couple real. Yeah. Oh, it is going to be acts. It wasn't. It wasn't. Anyway, yeah, him being like, breaking up. Can't hear you.

Can't hear you. So funny. Oh, boy. Down on the surface, Gideon's Imperial Commandos, tack and bow squad in the hallway. We just get an incredible amount of classic Star Wars Imperial base fighting across this episode. People falling over.

the edges and the open ravines, hallway fights galore. Corners. Corners. A crevice or two, Joe. A crevice or two, our beloved laser gates made a return that I honestly found delightful and I'm excited to talk about. But before we spend any more time with Bo or Ax, we go to another hallway for another little battle here.

And is it fair to say this is the most important scene in television history? when Grogo comes to rescue you're not prone to hyperbole, especially when it comes to Groger. So I have to take you at your word. This is the most important scene in television history. Yeah.

And certainly the only most important... The only most important scene television history in this episode, right? Because there can only be one most important scene in television history. Maybe like Mount Rushmore of most important scenes in television history, all of which involved Grogo doing something amazing.

Dan is being transported. by two of Gideon's commandos. This is absolutely outrageous, hubristic, hubristic, monstrosity nonsense for Mof Gideon. This is an insult to Dingerian, and he deserves a formal apology. Now, does he need to be rescued by Grogo and Mere Second?

Sure, but he would have figured it out, right? He does, like, a wall kick into this guy. And this is classic bond villainy, right? You know, just, like, get a hench or two. to take down the most Unkillable Spy and whatever. You know what I mean? Baffling stuff from Gideon and Co.

And it opens up in just breaking a guy's neck on a Disney Plus television show. Wild stuff. We'll get some neck stabbings later, but this was a neck snapping. And just wanted to note that for the record, as we chronicled this.

Shouldn't have separated a dad from his child. Joe. Yeah. Something happened here after Dinn broke one of the commandos next, which is the other living commando, lasso, Dinn by his neck and pulls him toward him. And I felt a confidence bubbling into a certainty that this guy was about to pull off Dind Jarn's helmet

and show us Pedro Pestral. It was just going to be like Pedro for the rest of the finale. Yeah. You were like, we got one scene. We got one scene in season one, two seasons, season two seasons, season two, surely we're going to ramp up to just like most of an episode. We've got 33 minutes left in this episode before the end credits. We will see Pedro's face the entire time.

Of course. That did not happen. This gentleman did not pull off Dingerard's helmet, nor did anyone else in the episode including Dingeron himself, despite ample opportunity to do exactly that. We did not see Pedro Pascal's face in season three of the Mandalorian. Would you care to comment? Listen, I honestly think I. I speak for even people who love this episode or this season to say that's a mistake to have Pedro Pascal and not use his face.

Is it possible that Pedro is busy making the last of us? Yeah, but it doesn't take, like, you can still take a day or two to come to the volume and take your helmet off. It doesn't, like, that's not how it's not a, just because they aired at similar times doesn't mean they were like shooting at exactly the same time. Yes, his hair, like, okay. No, the hair would have looked great. to just see Dijard suddenly go gray. It would love. With genuine love and respect for all of the people over the recent days, weeks, months,

and even years who have voiced, oh, you know, it's hard to get Pedro on set. I am baffled by this. Pedro Pascal is a working actor in Hollywood. He is not like the shape of the face of Jesus that might at some point in our lives appear on a piece of toast. And we'll have to take a picture before we butter it and it goes away forever. Like, he can make it to the volume in fucking Los Angeles. This can't, can not, can this actually be why?

That just defies comprehension. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I, I, there's a skeptical part of me. I don't, I don't know, maybe I shouldn't even say, well, it might even be a contractual thing in terms of like how much they have to pay him if he's there with his helmet off versus like when he does a voiceover work in the booth. Like, I actually think that when it comes...

Base bump instead of your own favorite, the wet bump. I think when it comes to the leading man of one of the biggest shows in Disney's firmament, they probably have to pay Pedro very little because when they hired him to do season one, you know, he was like doing Narcos, but he wasn't like, you know, a massive figure. And then they're like, come in, you'll do a couple days. And then we've got... They pay Latif and Brennan, I'm sure way less than they would pay a leading man on a TV. the show. So I don't know. That seems silly because it seems like, you know, you got the money.

Hey, Pedro to give us his face in one freaking episode. That would be great. But they didn't. And it was a mistake. That's all. Okay. Honestly, tragic. I mean, as was the absence of Cobbvan. Okay. A lot of pain that we're carrying. Tim might have been busy making justified city primeval. He was in Chicago, not California. And that actually might be like a hair, facial hair thing because like I do not want the Cobbant hair in wig form. You know what I mean? And like Tim has his Raylan Givens hair and lack of facial hair right now. So like, you know, if we need to wait, that's okay.

Okay. So you've made peace with Cobbant not being in season three of The Mandalorian and you're no longer mad at me that I promised you or assured you that it was a absolute fucking guarantee that he would have been here in this season. mad at you because unlike you, I do guard my heart against open acceptation. So I was cynically like, would they give me everything I want? No, probably not. I do want to say that. Not me. I'm like, here's my, here's my heart, like the hilt of the dark saber.

And I'm going to get it in your souped up Pescar hand. Crash it. I think that, I mean, and this goes to, though, the lack of Pedro's face in this season. goes to the larger questions we have around, I mean, I don't know if this is a space to do it, but like the children of the watch. Like we are so convinced that they are a zealous, like a zealous cults that needs to change their ways

or at least the did needs to have some sort of growth outside of his experience with them. Yeah. Yes. And part of that is motivated by asking like, take the helmet off Pedro Pascal's face, please. We would like to see it. You know what I mean?

And there is just a seemingly a gross misalignment between what we thought of the Children of the Watch and what the show thinks of the Children of the Watch. Show seems to think, seems to think that we just all need to tolerate our different approaches to life and that it is totally fine to live your life following the way as strictly as Children of Watch does. And as someone who is generally pro-tolerance, I like that, especially pro-religious tolerance. I like that message. But as someone who is generally pro Pedro Pascal's face, I have some comments, notes, questions. Well, let's definitely come back to that where the show came down regarding the righteousness of the creed when we get to the,

the thing everyone really was holding out hope for in the finale, which was the return of Ragnar later, down in the, down in the living waters. We will return to that. What's this show without a Vizla? I ask you. Again, I did not miss Paz, and I will not miss him moving forward.

But every time that I'm not with Grogu for more than, like, I don't know, 17 seconds, my heart yearns. And so thankfully, he followed Daddy Dinn when Dinn was taken away for this debrief. And he appears, little baby, little gumdrop still nestled in his corpse car, IG12's chest cavity, pressing that button, no, no, no, you will not hurt my dad. And after seasons, now they've always rescued each other, right? If we think back even to the second episode of the entire series where Grogu rescues Dinn from the mudhorn, right? giving Clan Mudhorn eventually its name,

or we think of the rancor sequence in the Bova finale, something I know you're very fond of calling back to whenever we have the opportunity here on House of R. As are all of us, I think. Or any number of other moments in between. Since the very beginning of the show, Grogu has also come to Dyn's aid. Grogou has also rescued Dinn.

But I think undeniably, what Grogu does here and later in the finale, what Grogu did in the second episode of the season, when he went to get Bo to rescue Dinn from Spider-Bot. This is one of the things that feels like the biggest, like season over-season change and points of distinction for season three over seasons one and two. Grogo was the one more often in the rescuer position. But they both rescue each other and they team up in this episode.

And isn't that what family's all about? Were you delighted to see Grogo come to the rescue here? Did you love when he whipped out the Bacta mist calling back to the season one finale? I mean, well, then that just makes you think of Fedder Pascal's face again. But this is exactly the kind of thing that Alex is talking about in his email when Grogo is just like liberally spraying din with the spray. And he's like, oh, I'm okay, I'm okay. Like, help me up. Will you cut me?

Like, that's a cumpiddy comedy beat with our Stoic Mandalorian. And it is excellent television. just absolutely so tender and sweet. And then we get one of the truly most wonderful exchanges in the not only episode, but season. Carlos, can we hear this? Will you cut me loose? Yes. Thank you for your help.

Grogu, I'm going to need you to be brave for me, okay? We can't keep running. If we don't take out Mof Gideon, this will never end. You with me? The way that Grogo nods there when Din asks you with me and he nods is just like absolute perfection. Din asking, staying to Grogo, I need you to be brave for me. Okay. It's like instantly one of my favorite Mando moments.

That was just so wonderful. And the way that this re-centered our core duo in the episode positioning that reset that you were you were alluding to earlier of centering them again and the show moving forward, that really worked for me in the finale. And it should be said. given that I just gave a little sermon on the mount about Pedro Pascal's face. It should be said, like, as a voice performance goes, he is so good. And we experience this when we listen to the quote at the top.

Like, when you just listen to his performance, like, it is so incredible. And I also just love the way he says grogoy. He says it differently than everyone, yeah, like, than everyone else does. And so... So cute. Yeah, it's great.

Great. We have a stretch of the episode after this where the various different camps, the different parties, are all readying, regrouping. So, Dyn has to radio Bo tell her that he and Groggey were safe. Everybody gets on the same page about the fact that Dinn's going to go after. Gideon, he takes one of the jet packs from the fallen, the felled commandos, which I liked as a little reminder that he had been disarmed.

He doesn't have any of the gadgetry, any of the weaponry that he's going to need, which sets up the mission of needing to retrieve blade, electrostaff, shield, etc. or later. Bo says, got to get the troops to safety. The captain says, I know where we can hole up. And just like with acts

breaking out of communication range, I was like, this seems like something that I would say if I were a member of the skiff crew and a spy. I would say, I know where we can hole up

and then lead you to your doom. But again, not so. And that's fine. That's fine. That's fine. we get a minute with Moff Gideon here, Joe, and the tie fighters, the bombers on the mission. Gideon hears that the fleet has been launched for attack, but he's just staring at two dots moving across a screen.

A red dot for Mando and a smaller, tinier little green dot for Grogu. What is this dot technology and how does it work? and how does this size and color coding? So precious to see Groke's tiny little dot, a little visual rendering of the show returning to the central focus. And Gideon's pretty, he's pretty glum here, Joe. He's feeling blue because the Mandalorian has escaped

and he's unhappy. How did you feel about this moment of reflection with Moff Gideon? To use a very sophisticated sports term, such an own goal on behalf of the show. To show Moff Gideon, watch them walk towards his cloning chamber and not scramble all forces to stop them

you could make excuses and say like his hubris you already called him a hubris strict or whatever like you could make an argument this is his hubris it just seems like a just a really silly plot hole that they could have just

not cause themselves by not showing the little green dot as well I love that you love the green dot it's precious but you're right it is very strange that he doesn't then stop Yeah. But, you know, a lot of time to think is he's preparing to later complain about how Dan destroyed all of his clones. So I guess he used the time to work on his latest speech. How dare you destroy my clones as I did literally, I didn't lift a single Bescar-clad finger to stop you.

Speaking of that Baskar-clad finger, by the way, when he says I'll take care of him myself and begins to move here, not toward actually taking care of him, as you've aptly noted. But we get a lot of like worrying of the armor, and it's really priming us to remember that this is a just a Baskar alloy suit that he is, but he has, he has, his, he has, his cloaked himself in. It's the dark trooper evolution. This augmented super strength is like pretty key to the events that, that follow in the episode. So getting the little whirr really reminded me of like, oh, yeah, that's what the dark trooper sounded like back in the day.

Where is my super suit? Okay. Sorry, because. Speaking of words. Yeah. Joe, it is time to be with our buddy, R5.

And I feel like we can call him our buddy because, well, one of us has loved him all along and one of us doubted his service record but then apologized and grew to love him.

Okay. Dean and Groger were kind of like watching around corners, keeping an eye out for troop and Ding calls R5, right? He says, I need you buddy.

Now he will later also praise R5 after the mission by calling him Buddy, and I would like to ask you a scholar, somebody who podcasts and writes professionally and puts a lot of stock in precision of language. Language matters. Yes. Does Dind Jarin get to call R5 buddy?

The fucking audacity of Dind Jarin. Droid kicker extraordinaire, Dind Jaran. Dyn, I don't know if this planet is safe, so let me just drop R5 down here to deal with like cave bats and all sorts of shit. No, this is just preposterous, honestly. And just sort of like, again, an own goal on behalf of the show because like if they hadn't shown us, then kicking droids, just the perfect poster boy for police brutality a couple episodes ago, then we could mark this as a like clear and. delightful evolution of a character who is working on his issues with droids. As it stands, it seems very disingenuous in usury to be like, hey, buddy, hey, pal.

I hate your kind, but you're special. Can you help me? Yeah. This just made me really mad anew, I'm with you, about the Dindroid Backslide in episode six. Because even though, like, we talked about at the time that was specifically the exposure to battle droids and what that that will call up from Dyn's past, but even so, like, Dyn's progress with IG, with BD, now with R5, has been, like, one of the real hallmarks of his ability to learn and grow and forge new bonds,

like as a character and sort of just needlessly insert this regression. Two episodes before you're going to have a moment like this is so bizarre, so bizarre. Oh, bizarre. I just, I will say, though, great work from R5. He really delivered, despite, as you noted, Dinn returning him to the site of his very recent trauma. When we get, like, hesitantly in the subtitles to describe the way that he's whirring, poor little fella.

But he's a brave soul. He's a pal. He's an accomplished vet. And he was ultimately willing, Joe, to scomp into the base and get that Gideon command center location for Dinn and then It's doing meaningful work here for Dyn Jaron who said I'm counting on you

Did he remind you most of any other Droid in Star Wars? I got a lot of chopper energy from him here Of course a ton of R2D2 It feels like an R2 moment And I will say that like thinking a lot about R2 made me feel like I like R5 plenty And like again I apologize

Yeah sure did I'm sure. Go ahead and call him buddy. I apologize buddy for besmirching your service record, but I don't love him the way that I loved R2. And so to see like a very classic R2, you know, like not to, okay, I'm about to make myself sound wholly unqualified to co-host the Star Wars podcast. But I love every time R2 puts the thing and the thing. Do you know what I mean? And then wears it around. I don't know what the words for that are. But when he puts the thing in the thing, what is, do you know the technical words for it? He's scomping. Okay. He's scomping.

Whenever he's scomping, which sounds like a word you just made up and or a dance that one does to scoff. But whenever he's scomp-link, it's a scomp link. Yeah. I am a huge fan of scomping. Yeah, I'm still waiting to see din scomp with the bow and or cob, you know? Why not both? Why not both? equal opportunity scomper, you know what I mean?

Truly the most disappointing thing about this finale was that nobody fucked. I just, what's going on? Come on. Come on. Come on. That we saw. I mean, maybe one of the, like, who, I mean, it's a post-war thing, right? Like, you're full of, like, Rio.

You think there was just like a huge orgy. Just clanging and banging all over the place, you know? Like winter fell after the long night. Everybody's fucking. Quote unquote, lighting the forge, if you know what I mean. So. Oh, boy. I bet those clings and bangs just. like echo throughout the caverns.

Do you know what I mean? It's just the armorer with the hammer and tongs again. Carlos has scared me so much because I did not know you were on bad baby patrol this week. Oh my God. Always on bad baby patrol. Honestly, they're on the house on heart palpitations. Always. I'll return us to a more wholesome note for just a moment here.

Small, it's fleeting, but I thought it was meaningful and the kind of reminder of when the show is it's best and what we really are hoping for more of moving forward, which is just Dinn taking a minute, like taking a beat, even in this dire circumstance, to show Grogu the schematic that R5 has sent him, to explain what they are looking at and what it means. Because DIN as teacher, we talked about at the very beginning of the season, how compelling those little glimpses of Dinn and the teacher role were. And especially given how this episode ends and setting up this idea of taking your apprentice, on his journey, like, this is where they're going to be able to find that, to hum at that frequency again, I think, more moments like that.

Yes. And I, it is, it serves both that purpose and like an orientation moment for the audience of like, here's where we are, here's where we're going. Here's why we have to go that way. He's teaching both. We're going to go and the audience. Got to go find the guy who's not looking for us, you know? He's like, I see those dots.

And I'll get to them eventually. I'm sure nothing will go. go wrong as they make their wave through my cloning chamber. Okay. Before we get to the cloning chamber, though. Yeah. Joe, we have a very meaningful stretch with an increasingly meaningful character. Axe woves.

Would you like to apologize to Axe Wove's for suspecting him of being a spy? No, I don't think I will. No, I'm in Steve Rogers on old cap. No. I don't think I will. I will. will. Okay, but I have to apologize to R5, but.

Yes. Because you, yes, exactly. I'm glad we're on the same page. We worked through that in real time. That's beautiful. I think the show invited this line of questioning about the X, don't you? I mean, I don't know at this point. Like, honestly.

Maybe not. I don't know. Also, even if it was not right to wonder if he was a spy, it is true that he abandoned Boca tan. And so I will hold that grave error against him. I will. But he repented here in a, in a, just a jet back that went all the way to fucking space. So he's in radio range no longer with the surface, but he is in radio range with the fleet here, Joe.

And we get another update. Here's what happens. Here's what needs to happen next. Everybody get to the drop ship so that you can get down below. he shouts, Boca Tan needs our help with such gusto that I had this unbelievable seesaw experience in the span of mere seconds where I was like, Axe Wolves, definitely not a spy. This guy means it. Then our old pal the fleet commander gives him the most suspicious. Several suspicious looks.

Several. And I was like, wait, is Axe the spy? Then I was like, but what's the plan? for you? I was like, then what's the plan? Yeah, exactly. This is where I'm going to sound, you know, like the mandos, right, they go into the drop ships. They pass the ties. Passing each other in the clouds. The ties are like, who cares about those ships full of people? So is your read here that because they went through cloud cover at the same time, the Thai fleet literally could not see the drop ship. They used radar, though. The Thai ship was like, we have bigger fish to fry.

Okay. And maybe the signal would interfere with the radar. Maybe they just, because for not a single ship to peel off for an attack is a little strange there. But it looked cool again. Axis decided we're using this carrier as a decoy. So I have to sit here. And this is where I'm going to sound like one of those filthy hold of maneuver doubters. But I love the hold of maneuver. You love the holder maneuver.

Yeah. One of the most thrilling moments I've ever experienced. is in a movie theater. Dude, same. I can remember still, like the way my heart was racing. And for that character, it feels like an important moment

and all this sort of shit that's going on. However, the doubters are always like, why didn't she just put it on autopilot? So my question is like, why does Zach's woe have to sit here and like, if his plan is not to die, then why does he have to sit here at all and like grip the captain's seat?

So. And waiting to the last minute to bailout. Yeah. I don't have a great answer, but here's my, here's my best attempt. I think that he wanted to ensure that he was drawing the fire, that the Thai fleet stayed attacking the ship that they could sense, you can sense if there are, part of the radar reading is that you can, you could tell if there's a life form on another ship, right?

So maybe the logic is, beating heart. Yeah, if nobody's here, well, we know what they're trying to do. Now, I guess you know what they're trying to do if there's only one, one feeding heart and that one heat signature, but, I think also the fact that he works the ship with such pinpoint precision into the base for the explosion later, maybe he just felt like he needed to be in that pilot seat to ensure that that went smoothly. And he's like, I am wearing a jetpack.

And Joanna Robinson went on the House of Art and said, Chekhov was not involved in this season. And so I know that my jet pack will work. I will be able to fire a precise shot and break a window of a light cruiser. and then exit in just the nick of time. And this guy has a bit of an ego. So I think he's like, I definitely can do this. And also, if I can't, to be more serious for a moment,

that he would be happy to give his life for the reclaiming of Mandelor for the return. He's a loyalist after all. Let's talk about Spice. Okay? Yeah. I do. And have what we said, hold you theories loosely. Okay.

and for you few, you happy few on Twitter today who are like, Joanna, you only didn't love the finale because none of your theories came true. That's just not how I watch television. Mal and I have been in the theory trenches for a really long time. We've covered lost. We've covered drones. We've covered, you know, I've covered West Rome. Oh, my God, the bedrock of fan theories that don't pay out. And I was thinking about, I was trying to, like, have an honest moment of myself.

of like, is it hurting me the way that I like to theorize about show? Is it hurting me ultimately my enjoyment or something? I was trying to have like, I was like, let's question ourselves. That's a good thing to question. Let's look inward. And I was like, I don't think so because I think what's true is that if what happens instead is satisfying, I don't give it shit, right? So let's take, for example, a famous Joanna was wrong example just last year with last

season of succession where I thought, I thought for sure a main character was going to die in the finale last year of succession. Great fucking blog post, though. Top tier. Internet. Wrote a whole post about all the reasons why, right? Okay, first of all, ever since I said John Snow was going to come back as a wolf and he didn't, you can't embarrass me on the internet about a fan theory that was wrong.

That was the, that was Apex Mountain of Joanna embarrassed showing her ass about a wrong theory on the internet. I like, I still love it. I can't, I can't be embarrassed. I am bulletproof. with the succession thing that happened last year, was I then upset or disappointed by the succession finale? No, because it was fantastic television.

So if the theory blows up, who cares, as long as the thing that's in its place is compelling. And, like, the problem with the complete dissolution of all of our various spy theories in this episode is nothing interesting took its place, right? So it's just, like, frictionless, we're all in it together, good guys be bad guys, what could be less innovative? You know what I mean? And so that's sort of where I stand with this idea of like a fan

theory doesn't have to pay off. I just need the thing to whatever it is to be interesting at the end of the day. What do you think? Yeah, I completely agree. It's in fact, quite quite nice to be surprised. I feel I feel the same way. It's simply a matter of the of what is actually in front of you. Like, I think we take seriously the idea of, like, you know, Lumberg wrote about this actually a bit in his piece this week. Don't watch the show that you think they're making. Watch the show they're making, right?

And I think we really try to do that. So it's not about whether the theory panned out. Part of the joy of talking about and covering a thing together every week on the pod and getting to do what we get to do is really trying to say, like, well, what is animating a lot of discussion right now? And so that's part of why we do it, not because we're so damn attached to what those prospective outcomes are. All of this sounds like what you would say if all your theories are wrong, but I do.

No, no. But I think to your point, Joe, about the, like, well, what was there instead, which I agree with in general, but specifically in this case, it, it, I am not only fine with Axe and the armorer and the skiff crew not being spies. I think ultimately it serves and connects to what was a central preoccupation and focus and theme of the season, groups who had long been opposed to each other learning to work together. So it completely tracks. To me, it was like it gets back to something that we've been talking about at length throughout the season and particularly in some of those Dino Turtle Cove side conversations or the absence of those conversations,

between characters who were working their way together at last. It's like if that's going to be the outcome, you really need to understand what the characters had to do, the compromises they made with themselves, the compromises that they made with each other, in order to work to a point that not only human nature, but years of established in-universe storytelling, tell us they are not inclined to do.

That's the problem. I agree. And I will, let me just say one other thing on this front is we got 11 billion emails this week. And we actually got a few emails about this before we recorded last week about the idea of what the title of spies might mean. I didn't address this last week because, well, I'll get to that in a second. But all of a sudden a bunch of you guys are Old Testament scholars and you have decided that this is a reference to the 12 spies. that instead of spies, what they really mean by spies is scouts and that the spies, quote unquote, that were scouts were actually like the volunteers that Bo sent in to scope out

Mandelor. Sure, that is possible. We've been talking all season long about these, you know, on Judaism corner about these Old Testament references and stuff like that. I will say, until I hear John Favro and or Rick and or Dave say that that is why that episode was called that. I don't actually believe that because that is not how titles of the Mandalorian work. I'm so happy to be wrong in the future if that's the case. But I don't think that that's what was going on. I think the spies are meant to be the Shadow Counsel and Kane and stuff

like that. I think that's what's going on. If it isn't, like, please, if you're listening to this and you're so mad because you're like, obviously it's the 12 spies, please track down John Favre. Don't harass him. But ask him. And if he says it is, I will apologize more sincerely than I apologize to R5. But I don't, that's just not how. Minleurian titles are so straightforward. The Jedi, the apostate, the like, whatever, guns for hire, like, the return. So I don't know.

It's, um, anyway, that's where I am on that. Do you think the spy is John Wolf? John Wolf has a Lord turning as a wolf. Yeah. I think it's good. I think it's, that'd be the spy. Kendall Roy at the bottom of a swimming pool. I think the spy.

Joe, I love to talk about television with you. And one thing that we can say is that while the finale answered a lot of questions, we will carry one mystery with us. Like the inquiry from our childhood, how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tutzy pop? The world may never know where Axe Woves was in the season two finale of the Mandalorian. Somebody find out for us. please, please ask Simon Cassianetti's where he was in the season two finale.

Maybe he was making the last of us, who knows? But I will just say this. Something that our friend and colleague Neil Miller likes to say over when we were doing like the Storm podcast was Mamas don't let your theories grow up to be expectations, right? So like theories are fun. Expectations get in the way, right? So if you're expected, it has to be this.

And then it's not that and then you're disappointed. where it's like, what if it's this? That would be fun. Oh, it's this instead. Okay, that's an, is that good? Or is that not very interesting to me? So anyway, moving on. Don't tell, don't tell Neil that I said that Asoka would be the achievement of a lifetime.

I would never. And I'm so glad you didn't say it on a podcast that a shit done to people listen to. Oh, Neil, I'm sorry. I'll try to do better. Joe? We head now. back into one of our favorite places to be, which is inside of a Phantom Menace Easter egg.

But this was really fun because it wound up being much more than a little wink to the prequel kids. It had the return to the laser gate passageway here ended up having real tactical logistical implications on what was a really neat and interesting battle sequence because Dinn says, I don't have any weapons. This might get messy. He's warning Grogu.

but it primes us for the return of one of our favorite things, which is inventive din, a din who on the fly is trying to figure out how to make something work and how to get out of a tricky spot. And he does it, well, thank God Grogoo stayed back and safe and R5 is dealing with those fucking mouse droid narks, but they get it done.

And din is like in video game, not in a bad way. Like he's like amassing resource after resource. was like being with Joel and the last of us and it's like, I have found a bullet. I found a health kit. A Molotov cocktail. Exactly. How did you, how did you enjoy this, this hallway sequence here with the laser gates? You know, I fucking love those laser gates. I thought this is great. And I think this is some really fun action. Yeah, great time. The other thing that I really liked about this, watching Dinn in hand-to-hand combat with so many of the commandos. And like, again, it's, it's,

It's actually pretty violent when he's like stabbing a dude in the neck and the various other ways of killing his foe here. But moments like that, I know where your armor is weak. I know where there's a break in the Baskar coverage. I know how to turn around and use the shield that you're not even thinking is on your back. We see this with Dinn here. We see it with bow and the armorer and other characters in the aerial battle later. The actual Mandalians, the people, to whom this armor is a sacred thing,

is a part of their, their, it's full heroic, like, this is my soul. This armor is my soul, right? Yeah. They know how to take advantage of where the weak points are,

how to protect themselves, the commandos, who have just appropriated through Gideon, this Baskar, don't understand it at all. They don't know how to compromise their foe. They don't know how to protect themselves. They haven't bothered

to try to learn anything about this. They're just using it as a show of strength. And as you said, this is like meant to stand in such strong contrast to the slow growth evolution of Grogu as he learns to understand what it means to be a Mandalorian, what it means to be a Jedi, how all of those lessons can be synthesized, et cetera. So, yeah. Sweet baby. Speaking of synthesizing, should we talk about clones? for a minute. Please.

Somehow, Gideon plan to return? Somehow, Gideon plan to return. Commandos dispensed, shields lowered. Din and Grogo make their way forward. Din summons Groger with this very darling little, all-clear, like little head tilt to him. I love the way that they communicate. And they entered the cloning lab, Joe.

And here, some of last week's theories were quickly confirmed. These were not Snokes. They are Gideans. And as you predicted, he wanted to make force-sensitive clones. There's an explanation from him later in the episode, but Carlos, can we actually hear this Gideon speech here and talk about all of the cloning implications in one spot?

My clones were finally going to be perfect. The best parts of me, but improved by adding to one thing I never had. The force. I was isolated. the potential to wield the force and incorporating it into an unstoppable army.

And you smothered them before they could draw their first breath. I mean, classic, like, absolute rampaging murderer trying to make the other guys feel bad about the thing they've done, villain stuff from Gideon here. But recall Joe in Chapter 19, this Persian Choruson sequence,

a night at the opera house, who doesn't love it, we didn't because we didn't love that episode. But, you know, Palsy would have loved it. He loved the opera. When we heard Pershing say, my research was twisted into something cruel and inhumane at the behest of a desperate individual intent

on using cloning technology to secure more power for himself. And so your best friend and, dare I say, soulmate, Brendel Hawks, will be vindicated to learn that Gideon was in fact secretly pursuing his own ends here, not working on behalf of Project Necromancer, not working on behalf of Palpe's restoration. Maybe he was also doing that at one point. But he is making his own clones and trying to become force sensitive.

You know, sometimes you jokingly say that I have, like, best friends and soulmates. No, but Brenda Hux is actually yours. Yeah, I'm not. And I splutter and deny it. Not this time. Yeah, where are you two registered? Hux for life, maybe. Yeah, William Sonoma.

Honestly, I broke my spoon rest today, so I need a new spoon rest. So please go to my wedding registration at William Sonoma and Sir LaTobb. So Brendel and I can start our new lives together. Okay, so anyway. Randall. Come, Bren. It's fine. All right.

Does this slightly change our understanding of the deployment of the mind flare? because I think even last week when we felt like we had a grip on what Gideon was doing, we thought it was like to erase the technology, the info about the technology, and we'll get to that in a second. But I think even more pertinently it's to erase Gideon's own secret plans because if Persh knew about it, he doesn't want my future husband, Frendel Hux, and or your future husband Pelly or any of the other members of the Shadow Council to find out what he's up to, right?

He's hiding. Right. Yes. He's gone off planned. He's making his own clones this time, and he doesn't want Persh to give the game away, right? I think so, yeah, that this is, the,

the Persh mind melt is a self-preservation tactic for Gideon. I think it also, this reveal here, confirmation kind of necessitates us to reassess some of the prior questions or some of the exchanges with Kane, like him saying, last week, you know, get back to the mission. And maybe that is just being a spy inside of the new republic. It might just be like a shadow counsel mandate.

But maybe, I mean, we saw before the mine flaying, Kane take Pershing to that lab and gather that cloning tech. Here's my little kit of cloning workshop material. The Navarro pirate connection, I think we now have to think back to. We talked about that at the time. Like, what is Gideon's obsession with Navarro still? lab we thought was destroyed. But like, and those were, I will say one thing that seemed, seems true is that the Navarro

tubes did look like proto-snokes. Yes. And these were not. Well, that's why I actually think Gideon went off plan with Project Network Romancer, like, between season two and three. This is my, this is my read too. And he's like, fine, I'll do it myself. You know what I mean?

I was doing it for you, Palpi, but why not also? One for you, one for me? I mean, I'm burr. burden with glorious purpose. What can I say? So, you know. Wow. Man, yeah, let's get shit. Let's get Loki into Mando Season 4. That sounds great.

The true connected universe on Disney Plus that we need. Okay, so here's one of my questions for you. Like, this introduces, we don't have answers, but it introduces some, somehow Palpatine returned broader, like, thinking face emoji stuff here.

I can't believe. I just noticed in our document, you've, you've, you've made an acronym SPR. Yeah. Is that okay? What I love is that the Rises Godwucker has like forever just burden the word somehow. You know what I mean? It's forever changed.

It is. Yeah. Unlike Palfi, who is eternal. But it's the way it's like the way that David Benyoff has ever changed kind of forgot. It means something different now. Somehow means something different now. It means yada yada. Danny kind of forgot about.

the Iron Fleet and somehow Falpatine returned. Somehow, Falpatine returned. Did Gideon actually get the force power to transfer to his clones? Or was he just hoping that he would? He doesn't know. Because if he did, he doesn't know. If he did, that's a pretty big canon update given the centrality of the struggle of getting force sensitivity to latch on to the Palpatine.

inside of Project Necromancer. And so, like, if he did succeed, then I think we have to wonder if Hux and Co. get, do actually get this research. If he did make a breakthrough and that becomes a key part

of the bridge and they'll get it eventually. Returned. Yeah. Or maybe he's just an egomaniacal want to be God who thought that he did this and they wouldn't have worked. I think that's a fun open question to have.

Like, what answers lie in that research? that Kane has or that is lurking in the heart of Navarro where Din Jaran and Din Grogu are currently making their home. Blissful, blissful little front porch hang inside of an Irish shot. Because back on Navarro in season two, episode four, when they call up that Pershing Hollow, and again, that's in the context now of like those were, they did appear to be

snokes. So clearly there's a change in the work and an evolution after. But Pershing says the body rejected the blood. I highly doubt we'll find a donor with a higher M count. So is your read, given that those seem to be Snokes, that they were, in fact, pursuing Grogu, on behalf of Project Necromancer, and that he is thus still in danger

because of your future husband, Brendan Lhawks, or was Gideon after Grogu for his own? Not everyone you're going to marry is going to be perfect, okay? Yeah, I think Hux still... Don't I know it. Hux seeds from a marriage. Hux needs. Just kidding.

Hux needs. Whatever it is, Hux needs or whoever needs, their next Pursch, needs, M count rich blood. That's right. Despite what keeps happening in the larger Star Wars canon, there aren't supposed to be that many poor sensitive people around. They're thick on the ground, actually. Increasingly voluminous tally. It's supposed to be Luke.

Really, you know, so, yeah. Well, I guess that's where that line from Pershing about highly doubt will find a donor with a higher M count remains very germane. That Grogu, like Anakin, is Middiclorian Jesus and has this particularly middy-rich blood that maybe leads to a higher probability of success with the strand casting. Medi-quarians for a second. Let's do it. This fees into the next email for our listener Thomas. I thought it was really interesting. Again, this has to do with like a larger reckoning of the state of Star Wars, right?

And Thomas, once again, long time, clear bona fides fan of Star Wars, had a couple. And then, okay, and then after this, we're going to have a positive email about the state of Star Wars. So just hold your horses, okay? So Thomas says, perhaps there are two defining failures of the modern era of Star Wars. First, there is a second trilogy, the prequel's banal demystification of the force, and it's sensitivity from a kind of universal Tao with which anyone might resonate into a quantifiable and inheritable quantum of mitochondria-like so-called midichlorians in the blood. Second, the latest trilogy, the sequel trilogy, undid the triumphant but pointed outcome of the

original trilogy in order to return all players to their soothingly familiar and safely commercially viable roles. Luke and Leah not grappling with applying the agility and adaptability of the rebel alliance to galactic governance and a table's turn insurgency of ex-imperials, but instead, once again, on the run from an empire that is entirely striked back and trying to thwart the very same emperor with a similar dark-armored, light-sabored sidekick, and also blow up a death star. So these two failures constrain the intervening narrative of the Manilurian two ways. Number one, everything gets technical, and a boring plot with moth clones and blood transfusions

and low-key generic body horror. And two, the narratively necessary speedy within a single generation collapse of the New Republic becomes an easy and cynical. And given what we know of the ingenious and indigenous ethos of rebels, utterly unrealistic, tale of the evils of bureaucracy and big government. It's a fake sober realism that is actually very unrealistic and untrue to this world as originally dreamed and built. Star Wars, as a lived-in epic story, depends on the exquisite balance of wonder and

realism established in the very first two films, the tribunal of the season of the Mandalorian for all of Baby Yoda's charm, speaks to how the second failure killed the realism, and the first failure killed the wonder. Now, with love and respect to Thomas, like, I don't think you and I are as out as Thomas seems to be on all this. But I think it's coming in like axe wolves and a flaming like cruiser. But I think it's a very brilliant analysis of like,

two hard pivots away from the original. So this idea, I mean, we've all, hopefully even the kids who grew up on the prequels, like roll your eyes, it's a fucking midichlorians, right? When you said minichlorian Jesus, like a chill went down my spine, right? So this idea, yeah, of transferring the force from like. Because Quigon Jinn took a child's blood without asking, is that why? And away from his mother and then left his mother in slavery and that's fine. Love you, Quigon.

this idea of, yeah, making it like science-based. And I mean, the cloning plot is interesting to me. The Clone Wars is from the original trilogy. But the idea of like, yeah, I mean, we've been talking, we've been talking around this a lot in terms of the fact that they are having to carry the burden of somehow Palpatine return from Rise of Skywalker into the plot of the Mandalorian. And then also that in. in one generation

the rebel alliance and their new government, the new republic falls back into the first order. And we've talked in the last couple weeks when we get like Tim Meadows and the bureaucracy and so like that, the way in which that is,

you know, the sad truth of how rebellions work sometimes. But also, yeah, it shrinks our time frame. And again, like, as I said earlier, I love the Force Awakens. But I think Thomas has a point about the idea of the Force Awakens just really wanting to put us where a new hope put us, which is like the good guys on the run and underfoot of an oppressive empire.

So and the Mandalorian having to make all of that feel smooth and natural and explainable. And this season, more than the other season, I felt like they were carrying that bag. What do you think? What are your thoughts and feelings? stop me if you've heard this before, but I'm of two minds on this. I guess I couldn't wield the Dark Saber because there's conflict within. This means you get to like, you know, be Asoka and like just step outside the rigidity of Darkside, Light Side, you know.

One of my idols, as you know. So I think this is very much connected to what we were talking about earlier. It's a matter of how well something is executed and presented and actually crafted. and not, I don't think, just what the choice is in the first place. Undeniably, Thomas is identifying something true about the hemming in, the hewing in of certain choices. And like the, there's a reason we say this with love and gratitude to George Lucas. There's a reason that one of the most prevalent memes and bits in Star Wars fandom is it's like poetry at rhymes, right? Like, there's a reason that that has become a thing we all joke about and say to each other.

all the dime. So is that to Star Wars' benefit that there are these return, to use the episode's name, there are these returns? I don't think so. I think sometimes that that can heighten the theme and something like the failure of the New Republic or the return of evil in the form of the First Order can be poignant and potent and reveal something about how a government or a bureaucracy or even a society functions. So I don't think they need to avoid doing the, like revisiting always. But if you, yeah, if you map something on so, so completely, it will cease to feel as fresh. Midichlorians are like, listen, I will not on this podcast today, nor will I ever defend

midichlorians. That's not something I'm interested in doing. However. However. However, what? However what? I don't think, we've talked about this before. I don't think it's an inherent sin to try to go hard sci-fi inside of Star Wars.

And I think that part of the mistakes sometimes that Star Wars stories make, and I would just like to repeat for the record that I am not defending Middiclorians. Where are you when Midichlorians registered now? The idea of the force as this mystical, ethereal thing is how I think of it still. And I think truly to this day, one of the greatest ideas and achievements and, like, things for us as fans to enjoy spending our time thinking about. When this is, like, we talked about this a lot during our Andor pods. Part of what makes Andor so fresh is that it's distinct and different. So if every show now tries to be Andor, we will lose that again. And so, like, I don't want every Star Wars story to just try to recreate the original trilogy.

And by the way, like, the original trilogy in Star Wars is one of the most important and consequential bits of culture in my life. There's a lot in those movies that doesn't work. A lot. And so, like, to act like they are this infallible, they're a sacred text to us, but they're not a flawless text. And I think that's always been at the heart of what we love about the ongoing exploration of Star Wars. We talked about this with the Clone Wars. sometimes if you're a Clone Wars viewer, you return to the prequels

and they make you even more mad, right? Because you see what it could have looked like to really understand Anakin's fault. What it could have looked like to see those moments where Anakin and Obi-1 were having a conversation about how they both wanted to be with a person who they couldn't be with because of the Jedi order and just couldn't push through together

to that shared understanding, right? And how like absolutely fucking devastating that is. And then there are times where you rewatch the prequels and you're like, these are still the exact same movies. Nothing has changed about them, but my ability to appreciate this stretch of timeline and these characters

and these arcs is forever enhanced by the decision to go back into that moment. So do I feel great that we're hemmed in by somehow Palpatine returns? Of course not. That was one of the most disappointing things that any of us have ever suffered through as Star Wars fans.

I will literally like never forget what it felt like to watch Rise of Skywalker Skywalker for the first time. Never until I die. I'll carry it to the grave. A grave that I will stay in because I have not cloned myself on Exigal, unlike Palpatine. But...

Burry me and the sands of tattooing alongside hundreds of lightsaber. If the Mandoverse can ultimately do for the sequels, what the Clone Wars did for the prequels, I will be grateful and I am willing to take a little bit of a trade-off in the boxed-end timeline to enrich that overall stretch of story. It just has to be good. It's the same thing you said earlier. It has to be good. I agree with so much of what you're saying.

I just do think that that idea of, and I mean, I far prefer to call it the M count. Like, thankfully, they're not saying the word midichloria because that does, like, I do have such a knee-jerk negative reaction to that. But this idea of, like, and, you know, maybe it's, maybe this is leaning into that democratization idea. Because, like, when we talk about the Last Jedi versus Rise of Skywalker, we talk about how much I love the Last Jedi concept of, like, nobody from nowhere, Ray. could be as strong in the forces pillow at broomboy. Exactly. What a gift. Yeah.

I just love that message. And so the fact that Rise of Skywalker had to be like, well, actually. I agree completely. You know, it's because these strong strains are what make the big heroes of this universe. These genetic strains, you know, it's a dynasty. It's passed down from like royalty generation to generation. It was a great, great sin. So I think I think when we go, when we lean back into M count in the blood, it does make me feel more rise of Skywalker than it does the Last Jedi.

That's, that's all that I would say about that. Okay. Should we get a little positive email? Let's think we should. All right. Ramiro, lovely long email from Romero, who is pastor, and I loved everything you said premise-wise to talk about your email. But let's just dig into the meat, which is, Romero writes, I acknowledge that many people have been underwhelmed by the season of the Mandalorian. but now that it is complete, maybe I can shine some yum into the sea of yuck that threatens

to drown all those who are expecting a much different season. Some have argued throughout the season that episodes were disjointed, inconsistent, and directionless, that Jarn and Grogu weren't present enough and that the Dark Sabre wasn't given the respect it deserves. Oh, those things are true. By someone he meets us. Thanks, Ramiro. Okay. Romero goes on to write, now that the season is complete, we can look,

back and see that this season showed us at least three things we have never seen. One, we saw how utterly incompetent, bloated, and unresponsive the new republic is. For all of us who wondered how the first order could rise as quickly as it did, this was revelatory. The season showed us the imperial remnants were far from unified, saying that Mofgideon wasn't working for Throne but was secretly and independently striving to recreate the galaxy in his image. Police by creatures literally in his image showed us that in the vacuum of Palpi's absence, there were numerous actors plotting and scheming in the shadows. This will make Thrawn's eventual emergence even more impressive. This season also showed us the story of how the Mandalorians were able to finally come together, not because of a magical sword,

but because they finally realized they were stronger together. Jaron and Grogu, yeah, okay. Jaron and Grogu might not have had as many scenes together as we would have hoped. Those two characters were instrumental in Madelor finally being united. They were the most important characters this season because without them, the Mandalorians would have remained isolated and Gideon would have maybe taken over the galaxy. Okay. So.

Sorry. Ramira, I was not loving your email. I was laughing at Mallory's pause. I'm making a face. I'm poised.

She gave us one of the longest millennial pauses I've ever heard in my life. Carlos might edit it out, but trust me, it was long.

It was there. Carlos is going to have to edit out that pause to get us but been below three and a half hours here.

I don't agree. I agree with the the points that he is observing are new or heightened. And I think that's true and those things are there. And they are interesting.

We're compelled by them. I don't think that removes or diminishes the flaws of the season. And I think, like I was saying earlier, for me at least, and it's completely fine for people to have different opinions about this. I don't think everyone has to respond

to the season the same way. It's actually having the opposite effect. When I see the season working well in certain spots and that they are, able to juggle the micro and the macro, the intimate portrayal of this beautiful found family, this incredibly surprising character set and bond and relationship with this massive thing, like the reclaiming of Mandelor or lore that dates back centuries with the Dark Sabre,

I think we're, I feel fortunate to get to watch so many of the different strands of Star Wars that I love come together in one place. And so every minute that that is not true, the show is not as good as it can be, period. That's just how I feel about it. And it's completely fine if people disagree. But that's my takeaway from the season. We're going to talk about this, I think, even more clearly when we get to what happens with the Dark Sabre, towards the end of this episode. But there really just is a huge difference between a concept we like and an execution

we like. You know what I mean? And that's, that is going to, this, what happens with the Dark Saber is going to go down in history. Like, in our conversations of media literacy as a primo example of that. of idea versus execution, right? Okay. Absolutely. I'll throw out something I liked, though.

Yeah, hit me. Balance on the force, as always. We love it. Fair and balanced. That's our point, I guess. There was one thing in this clone tank emptying sequence that, like, gave me a chill and that I really liked, and that made me excited for some of what is to calm.

Not that I'm excited for more cloning stuff. This is a Grogo character beat. seeing Grogu walk toward those cloning tanks and look at them. And the way that his face changed is he sensing, I'm sorry to mention midichlorians again, but is he sensing his own blood in there? Is he sensing a connection to a part of himself? Regardless, like he knows that these are people who hunted him. He is staring at like the rotten fruit of this pursuit,

this pursuit that defined his life. And so I'm hoping that we get more moments moving forward. I don't like to see Grogo in pain. But where he is literally staring in the face, the implications of his role in the galaxy and what others want from him or fear from him. And it made me think back to one of my absolute favorite stretches of the series to date, which was in the episode The Jedi,

the Asoka live action debut, when Asoka and Grogu are communing through the force. And Asoka is explaining to Dinn how Grogu had to hide his force powers and repress his force powers for so long in order to stay safe. So what would looking at the clones that Gideon made from Grogu, from all of those times that they hunted him, due to him and make him think and feel? We only got it for a minute on his face, but it makes me excited that the potential is there to live inside of thoughts like that.

And then they interrupt that moment with a genuine horror jump scare. This terrified me. It was agonizing. I don't know if they did that. Like, I don't know how much sense it makes for these clones to open up their eyes. It's fine. Let's just leave it there. But I have to wonder if maybe they did that just to, like, make sure everyone at home realizes that these, that's junk harlowe in the tank and not something else.

It made me, it did make me wonder if, like, the force transfer took and that the clone could sense a fellow force user. And that made me nervous. I love when you know. somehow Papatine return. I just need everyone who's tracking the love story of Mallory Rubin and Middiclorians should know that she is given its own little nickname here, Middies. Middies? You gave it a cute little Middies nickname in our document here, so.

I mean, that's like Ben calling Pershing, Prish. It doesn't mean that we love him. But we ship Ben and Persh, do we not? Mal and Middies. Like chocolate and peanut butter, Mal and Middies. All right. Cool. We're doing the thing on Thursday night where it's dinner time and we start talking about food.

It's dinner o'clock here at the Ls of our. Joanna, I would like to ask you about the implication of, we talked about the implication of Gidea making his clones, but the implication of like the way this played out in the sequencing and the time frame of the reveal, an episode ago, a mirror episode ago, it really became a central consideration that this was what was happening. and then we see the clones, we learn that they are Gideon, and quite literally seconds later, they are flushed. How are you feeling about the pacing?

I mean, I just have questions about, like, is it wise, after all, to keep Gideon contained to the final two episodes of this season? And would it have been interesting, similar to the Pershing plot, would have been interesting to see Pershing and Kane, you know, build their relationship over multiple episodes, episodes that just all felt like, yeah, you know, like just yada, yada, and then it's done. Like, to see Gideon, like, obviously it's not something a goal we're rooting for. We don't want Gideon to, like, succeeding this clothing plot.

But like to better understand this, like his children, you know, whatever it is that he's thinking of so that we then, like, later understand his anguish. Because like, even if we don't agree with a villain, we need to understand their emotional motivations and stuff like that. And so like to see him labor over this, to care about it, and then to wash it get flushed, I think would have been more emotionally satisfying than this, the alacrity with which they did it here. Yes. Yeah, like we, we chatted last week about how energizing it was to have Gideon back in the season. And I do, I do still feel that way. thought, you know, the, the Midnight Boys had a really great conversation about the question

of Gideon's motivations on, on their finale pod. And I think, on the one hand, like, we know what he wants, right? He wants to be a god. We understand why he was so eager for Thrawn not to return, are we sure her Throne's back? He doesn't want a rival. He wants to be the new Palpatine. He wants to be in charge. He thinks he's a god. The improvement inside the suit is him, right? He's the superior ingredient. When he faces off with Boca Tan, which we'll talk about more when we get there, and he taunts her about the idea of surrender, that lands for us because it is anchored in their personal history together and what has transpired between them.

Season two informs that. Exactly. Yes. So we know that Gideon is responsible for the purge of Mandelor, but I thought the guys were really onto something. talking about like, but why? Is it just that he was an imperial ISB cog and power mad? We know from the speech last week about cloners and Jedi and Mandalorians that he is basically

building this like might is right transformer toy of the strengths and achievements of other cultures. But what specifically about Mandelor other than like, hey, you have Vascar and I want that for myself? And what is, is the drug? And what is his story? Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Who is he? Yeah. Who is he? What, like, what, you know.

Why are the mall Super Commando horns on his helmet? Is it because he thinks that they're really fucking rad? Or is it because he was a one-time Darth mall enthusiast. Does he wish as a guy who's putting force-sensitive strands into his clones that he could have been a Sith? Like, that would be really interesting to know about him. And I think that like, hmm. So let me say two things about this.

Number one. Like three things, I guess. Okay, so like it's one thing to intellectually understand something versus emotionally resonate with it. You know what I mean? And again, we don't have to agree with an antagonist to sort of be emotionally invested in their journeys like that. Number two, I will say because of our Yellowjacket's coverage, I've been listening to a lot of Le Miserables. Arab, this is related. Le Miserableserab as a story, as a musical or as a novel if you prefer, tells us a twin story of like Jean-Mézorabre.

Valjean and Javert. And we understand Javert as much as we understand Jean Valjean as their journey as protagonist and antagonist. You know what I mean? It's like, and that's, you know, and so when like Javert says, I'm from the gutter too, like we understand what's going on here. So where's Muff Gideon from that he feels this way? You know, we might get a comic book story about it.

We might get a novelization of it, blah, blah, blah. But within this story, I would like, I would like to know it. And then last but not least is sort of this idea of like, hmm. in a media literacy sort of way, the idea of a big bad has its sources, his roots in the TV series, Buffy Vampire Slayer, where one problematic Joss Whedon changed forever the way that a lot of people tell stories by giving each season sort of this idea of a big bad where you would have serialized, you know, episode of the week's stories, but in the back, burbling in the background is, is a big bad confrontation that's going to end the season. But if you think about Buffy, let me,

for those my beloved Mallory included who haven't watched it, you know, your big bads are characters like that are called the master or the mayor or glory or, you know, angels if you prefer. Like, we're with them. Check in with them all season.

And we're not fighting them every single episode, but we are checking in with them. And we're learning them and learning their scheme and learning why that scheme is important to them. So that when it comes down to it, we have a better understanding of them. So to just hide, again, hide the ball on Muf Gideon, is he alive, is he dead? What is the scrap of Bessgar doing here, blah, blah,

just to deploy him here, then, yeah, just makes all of this feel a little rushed. Yeah, going for the twist instead of the very clear road to the outcome. But life persists, as we heard, in one of the surface caves with our old pal. Scouty Pete and the skiff captain. Quick corrections department from Joanna.

I just want to say like, okay, last week in all the notes and every time she said it, Mallory said Skinny Pete, which is the name of this character from Breaking Bad. There is a television series called Sneaky Pete with Giovanni Ribisi and I somehow got it in my brain that that was the correct. Even though I, even though the night before when I had texted you, I used the right name. I said sneaky Pete like five times And I even went so far And this is the embarrassing part It was important part to change one of them

The doc because I was like Mallory is it wrong And it's sneaky me And then all of our listenership was like You dumb dumps anyway My apologies Mallory Rubin He's scouty Pete to us now And so that's all that matters

And the Skiffkeptan And the Skippy Pete and the Skippy Hapden They go into a peaceful place Joe where people are allowed to work through a podcast. Apologies, I think. This is a lovely spot for this. Another moment here inside of this cave that is teeming with life where we really see how the Mandalrians,

foundling or otherwise, know their planet in a way that an interloper and an invader like Gideon, not just doesn't, but can't even be body. to try to. The fact that he has not looked or wondered or seen or spotted or examined, the return of the return, there it is in the episode of life is such an indictment and such a strong contrast to our non-spy skiff crew heroes the whole time. We never doubted them once. No. We've always been on their side. This is a theme you love. You love this, Mallory. When like when our villain fails to pay attention to the smaller things,

misses it and our heroes are paying attention. This is how we show our love, Mallory. Oh, now I miss, now I miss Bill and Frank. Always eternally. Oh, that made me sad. But the plant life, the indigenous life, as we learn, it makes me happy, Joe, because it is such. contrast to this barren, inhospitable wasteland that we are accustomed to seeing on the surface

of Mandelor, the domed cities that people have to live inside of because they can't exist outside of them. The barren moons, you know. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Here is something. Not just our characters, are the people of Mandelor returning, but the very, like, kernel,

ember of life itself. And Bo is amazed by what she's seeing. Carlos, can we hear this? These are the old species indigenous, the Mandelor. They've been dormant since before the centuries of civil war. Once the planet was abandoned, they sprouted in spots. We cultivated farms. Life persists.

I've only ever seen gardens in the domed cities. I never knew the surface could still sustain plant life. All they need is room to grow. Joe. This made me think of our bodies. beloved Duchess Sotene and how happy she would be. Bo's sister, who fought to not partake in any of these competing factions waging galactic war, to not be bound by the, and that's true in the galaxy end on Mandelord,

and not be bound by the warrior way that led to this constant civil strife that decimated their own home world, the civil wars that we here alluded to. A peaceful, pacifistic way. Protection, nurturing growth. And for Bo to get to see this. Did Sotin get a mention? No, I would have loved it, but I was thinking... Someday.

Someday. You know Obi-One Season 2 when we get that sex stream at last? Yes. It's the only reason I want Obi-1 season 2, to be honest with me. Okay. So to Ramirez pointed in his email earlier about the way in which Din and Grogu are essential to what happens here in the plot of this season. you know, we can note that it's not only Mof Gideon who was failing to look for the verdant life on Mandelor, both Bo Katan and the Armour said to Din, don't go back there.

It's done, right? In season three, episode one, when Din goes to visit Bo and she's sitting in a very inventive way on her throne, right? She says, go home, there's nothing left. And he says, I'm going to Mandelor so that I may bathe. in living waters, be forgiven for my transgressions. She says, you were a fool. There's nothing magic about the minds of Mandelor.

They supplied Besgar ore to our ancestors and the rest of superstition. The planet has been ravaged, plundered, and poison. And so I think that this idea of faith, you know, and when Katie talked to us at the beginning of the season, she's like, you know, Bo is bottom, rock bottom. and given up her hope and her faith and all this sort of stuff. And we talked a lot about this idea of faith as it pertains to the Mandalorians or two characters in Star Wars. So this idea that, like, Dinn, because of his desire to belong back to his covert, which I guess we have to decide is not a damaging cult, but is a fine way to be, refuses to give up hope.

That Mandalor is a place where one can find the living waters. You know what I mean? And so, like, the living waters are not just there for Mithosaurus to take long baths in or for Dinn to, like, take a headlong tumble into or whatever. But it's there to nourish new growth, new life, et cetera. And so, you know, without Dinn, Madelor is a lost cause. in part because of speaking of fan theories that pay off.

The fan theory that you and Ben were espousing early season that, you know, there's a secret imperial base on Mandalore and they're spreading rumors about poison air because they want to mind that best car. They weren't minding the best car incorrectly, I guess, but, you know, that's when something. Still have just so many questions about the

Bestgar shard and the best car forging. I loved that theory. That was a great one, Mal. I loved that idea. Well, spoiler, Boca Tan does not stab Gideon through his faulty armor with the dark saber. Something else happens in our stabb. But we do get a big old battle. We do get a big old battle because the com link kicks in here.

Gardening time is over. It's the armor telling Lady Crees that her reinforcements have arrived. Bo clicks on her helmet and says, Let's take our planet. Let's take back our planet. And they fly out of the cave. The drop ship troops are flying down as the surface cave troops are flying up. And then the two camps mix and mingle.

This is a podcast. I don't know why I'm doing all this stuff with my hands. But you get to see it. I feel it. I feel it. We get to see Joe right there on our screens. That's stronger together idea as Bo and the Armourer are leading the pack next to each other at the front of this charge. and Bo ignites the dark saber.

They surge toward this commando pack. We get our jetpack battle. Sick move for Boca Tan. I mean, there were a lot of them. She's a fucking badass. But I loved the slide on the floor and then going on the edge and then turning around in like one smooth motion. That was iconic. But we got to talk about the armor here for a second.

We already covered the not-a-spy stuff. This is where we really see, Not a Spy. kicking fucking ass one hammer and tong shot at a time in midair. You had to love this. I love when she fights with those hammer and tong. I love that. It was so cool. What's your sense of like the moves of the armor?

The armor takes the injured skiff people back to the main ship and then comes back and do they come back with her because they're not on the shift because Axe Wolves evacuated? They can't be on the light cruiser. They're all crispers now. Did she just you turn? Did she just pull Ui when she heard Axe Wolves on the column was like, oh shit, Okotan needs me? Except she set off for the ship before Axe.

So I don't, like how did she get back? It was confusing. Even watching it in real time because one of the inside gauntlet drop ship shots that we see, we see her standing there. But before that, I had a, when everybody's leaving, I said out loud to Adam as we were watching, where's the armor? And I just once again, like, so sure.

Yeah, exactly. We were about to get some reveal. Okay. Yeah. That's me picking this. It's fine. They figured out somehow the armor returned. So now.

And thankfully she did because she was, she's just, man. She's a five-star prospect. I mean, where it is a, I guess they're one of the gauntlets maybe they're just hanging out. They were on a secret skiff for years. I'm sure this is an upgrade. They're on a different transporter with chewy. It's fine.

Okay. Well, speaking of Bacta, we are back with Klan Mudhorn. Healthy and well. And they're battling Bidian. Because you said back, we're back to. Well, because Gropo was using. the back to spray, more of that. But also, sure.

They enter Gideon's Lair. This is where he makes the big speech about his clones that we heard earlier. His God Complex is on full display. This speech, Joe, the general deployment of him in this season, the shadow counsel seen last week, I'm curious.

We'll talk, I think, in a minute about whether we think we're definitely done with Gideon or not. So put a pin in that. But did this make you more or less interested Thrawn or otherwise because we didn't get Throne. It was one of the big points of speculation where we get a stinger, what we see Thron.

Does it make you more or less excited to see other members? I know the answer to this because of your Hux love. Of the Shadow Council, like to know that Gideon was capable of doing something like this, right? The armor that he forges, the secret base that he maintained, the clones that he crafted. Does it make the prospect of on the road to Palpatine returns?

many other members of the Shadow Council, and especially with this now knowledge that Dinn is going to be off working for Carson Davis, an independent contractor, hunting down the imperial remnant for the New Republic, more interested in seeing

how some of those figures emerge as big bads in their own right so that it's not just all about how Palpatine returned, or not so much. I mean, this is like you saying, you only have eyes for Hux? No, this is like you saying,

surely Cobbantth will be, be in season through the Mandalorian. Like now I'm like wait, why isn't Brent,

why won't, can Brenda Hux be the big bad of season four of the Mandalorian? Maybe he, maybe he will be though. Okay,

great. Yes, I want it. Yes. Okay, well, they start to fight here and Gideon fires

a missile of Grogo, which is just fucking outrageous. How dare he? All the other stuff, you know, I'll allow it. We have a show to make. But how,

frankly, how dare he do this? The, every, you know, every season finale has been about a showdown with Gideon, right? Season one, season two, now season three. But we got the real bookend to the season two duel in particular here, where Dinn,

without realizing what he was doing, won the Dark Saper from Gideon by besting him in combat. But here, this super suit that Gideon has crafted is too much for Dyn. He is overpowering him, just as he is later overpowering. Beau, but is that the Praetorian Guards music?

I love that. Your faves show him up again. And Joanna, Grogo once again, sensing dad's peril, comes in, smashing the no button, coming to Dad's aide, and the guards pursue him into another chamber. The door closes separating Dan and Grogo. My heart was pounding at this point. Weirdly, I'm normally very nervous for Grogo. I hate to seem in peril.

It didn't occur to me that anything bad would happen to him here. It just seems impossible. He's too important to what they're doing. For the first time ever, in this moment, I wondered if there was a chance that Dinn would die. Did this occur to you at all? Am I a fool for even considering that for a second? You're not a fool. It was a very popular fan theory that Dyn Jarn was going to die in this episode.

It had never occurred to me until this moment that it was possible. That just, I just don't think they're going to do this show. without, here's what I will say. Perhaps if Dave Faloni had not announced that he was doing a Thrawn movie with the like Mandalorian Avengers Assemble moment, mandoverse Avengers Assemble moment in that film, then maybe I would have been like, oh my God, is this the, is this the finals? Like, was John joking when he said maybe season four and this is it?

And but since we know that's coming, I was like, no, they're not. doing that without Pedro. Like, they're just not. So I was never worried about danger and dying here otherwise personally. But something I want to say in a larger way.

Given all of her back and forth about fan theorizing, I don't think there's a wrong way to watch television. I hear that a lot. You're watching it wrong. I don't think there's a wrong way. So if someone was worried that Din might die,

either due to the fan theory or due to this very, like, separating the key character Groku from perhaps an expendable character to Jarn. I get it. I get it. Well, here's how I was watching this.

I was watching this saying, if you told me I could somehow port myself into any fictional universe and kill one fictional character ever, who would I pick? It would be the guard who slice an hygiene 12 corpse car nearly slicing Grosue in half.

And then also a candidate would be the guard who later, after Grogo, even in this just dire circumstance, he flips up to the catwalk and he's babbling, he's queuing, he's laughing as he jumps, he's having a blast. The guard who sliced part of the catwalk and it fell on top of Grogo, and of course it makes us think of Anakin and Obi-One and the Dukudul, I would fucking kill those guards with my bare hands if you allowed me to. I mean, I would say, I would say, good luck, Valerie, versus the Praetorian guards. Are you kidding me? Oh. I would. Those guys are going to slice and dice you, my beloved friend. No.

No, you know how you hear about like parents who can like. Mama bear strength? Suddenly. Lift a car. Lift a car. Yeah, exactly. That would be me. It's just going to be like flinging, like it's just going to be red lacquer flying everywhere as you, as you take them apart.

Okay. That would be me. That would be me. Speaking of Mama Bear, Papa Bear strength, what does Bo say to Dinn when she takes over the fight of Gideon? I've got this. Go save your kidd. I, we're going to just get Appalachian. We're going to save that for later.

Okay, Joe, we cut in this stretch between Axe trying to land the, or crash land, the Light Cruiser in exactly the right spot to blow up the base, Din and Grogo against the guards, and Gideon versus Bo. So let's, even though we caught back and back and forth throughout the episode in classic Star Wars fashion, let's first talk about the Din and Grogu's sequence and then move to Gideon and Bo. Din's turn to save Grogu now. And then it's a full on clan Mudhorn team up. They're working together as a duo helping each other. Grogo's using the force to push the guards around as Din is battling them.

This was delightful and I think a nice preview of what we can expect to see in season four as they are. going on missions for Carson Teva, at least that is my hope. Nice to see also Mandalorian battle tactics and Jedi battle tactics in one scene here. Get a little you did good kid from Dinn to Grogu. Any thoughts on the fight? It's like, I did like it a lot.

I will say that I think they're still trying to figure out how to make Grogu as a puppet move in a way that feels good. Like the IG corpse car is one solution. The bassinet is my favorite solution. Like Grogo just zooming around the bassinet. So I'd like for him to get some sort of hovercraft situation in the future. Because whenever he's like walking around,

it really comes back later in the bar scene when he's like running into the bar at the end. It looks a little like marionetti, like a little silly. So there were just some moments that looked a little like, I love a puppet though. But yeah, the blending, like Moth Gideon wishes, right? This is what Moth Gideon wants is like Jedi plus Medallorean skills. And it's like, this is, you know, this is what Klan Mentor does. So, yeah. Well, speaking of Gideon, let's chat a little bit more about this long-anticipated showdown between Gideon and Bo.

He's taunting her. What's it going to be this time? Surrender or fight. Only one answer, of course. Fight. Bo ignites the Dark Sabre, Joe. John Carlo is so good. Right?

Yeah, he's amazing. I mean, it's amazing. Obviously, I don't actually want him to return via clone, but we will miss him dearly if he doesn't. So the moment where Bo ignites the saber and holds it and we get that close-up shot, and she is readying to use this blade against the guy who derailed her life so seismically when he forced her to give that specific blade up, had my heart.

racing. And then, Gideon says, hand over the Dark Saber, and I'll give you a warrior's death. Bo lets out like a battle cry and charges. Gideon catches her hand in his super strength best scar fist.

And he crushes the Dark Saber in his hand. Boom, God, destroyed. Let's hear this clip and then talk about this. Carlos. The Dark Saber is gone. You've lost everything. Mandalorians are weak once they lose their trinkets. Mandalorians are stronger together.

Okay. Let's talk about it. We love this idea. We love this idea that this thing that has been such a curse, a burden and a curse for Bocatan, this idea of this, like, totem. This is what she needs to legitimize her role as a leader and how it's bitten her. the ass again and again and again and this stupid idea that you have to have a sword i mean again we're going to talk about the importance of magical swords next week so i don't mean to like diminish them overall but i love this idea of giving up this uh of giving up the saber um i agree i thought

this before i heard them say it and i was even more convinced after they said it the midnight boys are like why didn't she it should have been her choice to sacrifice the dark saber for the larger fight to give uh you know it's like giving up the ring of or something like that you know and i mean this thing that she's been holding on to. And there's, like, so many ways, I don't mean to write fan fiction. That's what the fanfic writers are for it. But, like, if you even think of, like, there's a clear visual inspo moment in a Pretorian guard fight in the Last Jedi when Ray drops her saber in order to get out of a

hold and then, like, you know, and grabs it and wins. But of, like, if she had to drop her saber in order to get out of the hold and drop it off the side of the cliff and it goes into, like, Malton Lava, I don't care, whatever. Somehow the Dark Saber gets destroyed. it's her choice to give it up, rather than him just crumpling it. That's an execution I might have wished for in a concept that I largely love, which is, in the end, it's not the dark saber, but it is the ruler. There's also, there's this, again, not to reference Buffy, but like, tis my nature.

There's this incredible fight in season two of Buffy where her antagonist, is attacking her and he's like, you've lost all your friends, you've lost this, you've lost that, blah, blah, blah, take all the way, what's left? And she, like, grabs the blade of his sword between her hands and she says, me. And it is, like, one of the all-time killer moments in, like, fantasy storytelling. And there's, like, a bunch of different moments like that, but I think about that one all the time. So, like, I like her saying mandolores are stronger together. Like, that's a good line. But, like, you know, you've lost everything. What's left? Me or us or something like that. I don't know. Anyway.

again, I would love to hear your take, but I think we're largely on the same page. Good concept, possibly shoddy execution. What do you think, Mallory, Rubin? Yeah, it feels very much of a piece, though, in its own ways, but very much of a piece with the handoff a couple episodes ago from Din to Bo where the issue is not the outcome. It's the way. This is not the way. Yeah, this is not the way.

I have no issue with the outcome and agree. I think that, as you said, the recognition that you don't need this sword that has plagued you, you specifically in your life and your people across time to validate your worth is an amazing place to end up. If the characters are the ones who decide that, there's the kind of practical speed bump for me here inside of the universe, which is once again that the Mandalorian season three is just not an active conversation with the book of Boba Fett in particular where three really consequential episodes

of the Mandalorian appear. When Din and the armorer are training, Mando says the Dark Sabre Health is quote, of the quality of Baskar I have never seen before. And the armor replies, it was forged over a thousand years ago by the Mandalor Tar Vizla. He was both Mandalorian and Jedi.

Moth Gideon crumbled this like a fucking Ritz-crack. that just doesn't track. Okay? It just doesn't. So like, why are there these logic conundrums inside of the universe? When I saw, when you put this line in our dog, I like gasped. I've forgotten that that exact one exists. And I was like, why write it if you're then going to ignore it anyway?

Right. And like then thematically and ultimately that's more important, but I think they do work in lockstep to make it less effective than it otherwise would have been. The villain. The fact that it is the villain, that it is your. Bain, that it is the person who is the cause of making you feel this way so often, is the one who destroys it and then taunts you rather than you, Bo, being the one who says, I don't need this. Even if the theme of the outcome is powerful, it saps some of the potency when that's the way

that you get to it. I think even like if it hadn't happened right here, a moment maybe like at the Great Forge when they ignite the Great Forge later, if Bo had turned around to everyone and said, we don't have the Dark Sabre anymore and guess what, we don't need it. all the things that we're going to make together. We plot our own future. We're not bound by the past. There were ways still to make this connect a little bit more fully, but they just, they didn't do it.

And I think, again, it's a proximity issue to me, too, inside of the season where the handover from Dint to Bo happened at the end of episode six, very recently. And in that moment in time, Bo raises it. and feels like this is, despite all of the moments where she was at war with herself and felt broken and resented the outsized impact that that blade carried among her people, raised that high, is holding it out in front of her in this episode as they charge into battle. And so it's not just that we don't hear her say, I'm dropping this off, I don't need it. They're not really showing us that the character feels that way until just like that one little line, like you're saying. So I don't know that. this was the, I love the Dark Sabres, you know. Jomey and I are both having a hard time. It's a cherished object of ours. But the outcome, great.

I will say one more thing here, which is that this is another way where I think the Eldoron comp really hurts the execution of the Dark Sabre. Because, spoiler for Deathly Hallows, movie book difference, but in the movie, Harry breaks it, right? Breaks the El Doron.

In the book, he puts it back in the tomb. In both cases, he is decided. I don't want it. I don't need it. I don't need it. And I shouldn't have it. I don't want it. I looked into the night king.

Want it. That's a decision, an active choice that the hero of that story makes. Why is Gideon the one who gets to decide this year? I'm just so, so perplexed by that. Can I ask you, do you think there's any choice that chance the Dark Sabre returns or do you think we're actually done with it? Like we saw Ray repair Anakin's Saper, right? Is the Khyber crystal itself? Damage or just the hill.

Listen, plenty. Okay. Let it never be said that Lucasfilm gave up an opportunity to sell Malibu and a different lightsaber. Well, as you know, I have a proud owner of a dark saber already. No, I know, but like you would take dark. You would take Dark Sabre Mark 2. 2.0.

Yeah, they made it. I know you would. You know, or if they turn it into like the dark rapier or the dark, you know, dagger or something like that. Yeah, I mean, sure. Somehow the black Khyber crystal return, for sure. I also just, and this is a good example of what you're saying earlier, not being attached to something, I'm happy to let this go. Did feel like it could have really belonged with Grogu though, hopefully.

I hope it doesn't. Like, if it's, if it's, if the whole point is, this is a cursed object we don't need it or, you know, whatever. Yeah, that's why I'm asking like, do you think? Have it really made that decision, though, do you think? You know what? Maybe I should just not speculate. Okay. So

sorry about fire bombs Yeah You know Far from being a spy Is the hero of the whole thing Right? He ends the war Right

Can you Can you share this like Ben observation About the Yes Ben had a As always a wonderful Brilliant Of course a wonderful column

On the finale Read it on the ringer.com What a great website He had a couple lines of particular That killed me one was later about how the Mithosaur didn't eat Ragnar despite how monsters always think he's a tasty snack. But speaking of the Mithosaur, then had this observation that I thought was really astute that the songs of the Yon's past were told of the rise of the mistor. And this idea of heralding in a new age that we've been talking about.

Like, sure, in some ways that tracks to Bo make an eye contact, lock an eyes with the actual creature in the Living Waters in episode two. but that in a lot of ways it was the Mythosur skull that they had painted on the Light Cruiser that these people had said, this is who we are. And we're going to crash that. It's classic prophecy shit, and I love it. I love it. I love this. But what we're getting in addition to the Mythesore Lake Cruiser crashing in, is Clan Mudhorn fighting together.

together. Ah, it's great. All three Zs. Wonderful. Gideon getting forced knocked over by Grogh was delightful. Did you want Grogh

to turn to the dark side? Did you want him to crush Gideon and the Besscar armor? No. I didn't occur to me, honestly. Check off, once again,

none of the writing staff this season. The little bit of Bessgar Rondal that went in the front of Grogu's little robe, didn't matter. Didn't pay off. No. No.

But Grogo's saving up those force calories did pay off just as we thought. Okay, but here's my question. Again, once again, execution. Is this a satisfying? What? Okay, I'll just say this. I like it when a villain is hoisted somehow by their own batard.

That there's some sort of critical character choice that they have made or a way in which they have underestimated people that kills a... Gideon dies here in a blaze of acts woven. in glory. You know what I mean? Like, okay. And Grogu and Bo and Dyn live because Grogu has a force. So like there's something slightly poetic in the fact that like this thing that he craves the force, he doesn't have it. Grogu does. Grogu saves them with the force and he dies. But like I just wish there had been like some more active choice he made that was his downfall, some false move that he made, some way in which he's underestimating them. But he's not. He just gets engulfed in flames. And so too.

would they if Grogo had not used the force, you know? Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I see that for sure. I guess, like, the poetic impact of his own ship being used to take down the base that he had the gall to build by plundering the resources of a people he didn't understand. And he's encasing himself in the best guard that ultimately is going to be his tomb because he's

going to roast in it. I know. Like, if, like, if he had, like, okay, I'm writing fit. fix it again. But if he had like drowned, like sunken down with the weight of the best guard that he stole or like something like something very poetic and tied directly to. But then we'd all be like, is he going to claim the Mithosaur? And then I would have been like, well, Jamie Lannister survived. So who's to say? I'll take your explanation. That's fine. I'll accept it. Do you think that Mof Gideon is off the show? What do you think? He's got all the, he had the clones. They can't do it again, Mallory.

They cannot. I agree. Faked seasons ending. They can't. Yeah. They can. They can. They can. They can't. But they might. But they can't. They might. One cloning base destroyed doesn't mean there wasn't another somewhere, at least the ability to make another clone. I don't know.

I think on the one hand, they cannot bring him back in season four because they can't end a fourth season in a row with the same showdown. But then if they wait and do it later, it really, like, invites an even more direct. Somehow Gideon returned. Somehow Palpatine returned. Like, everything always has to be about the same characters all the time. Okay. Are you ready for some fan pick?

What if season four opens with a Gideon clone and he's back and he's plotting blah, blah, and then my husband, Brendel Hux, shows up and just like, you know, smokes it, kills him. I love it. When you say season four opens, you mean what if that happens in Book of Boba Fett season two, right? Is that what you mean? Of course. Episode five of Book of Boa Fett season two. Grogo in the Force.

here's what I loved about it. Not only the cocooning of Clan Mudhorn inside of a Protago spell, but the callbacks, there's obviously the season two finale is very top of mind, but the season one finale, we have a lot of callbacks to that in particular.

We've talked about some of them already. Grogu, and we talked about in our Top Mando Moments preview pod, like we talked about how wonderful seeing Grogu fend off the troopers, flamethrower fire is in the season one finale. And so to call back to that here, I loved. And also because even though he plops down for a second, he doesn't immediately need a nap.

So, like, not only the might of the force that he is displaying, but the strength that he is gaining, I thought we would see even more moments like that this season, but I was glad we got this here. This also had to make any Rebels watcher think of Canaan. Had to. A massive plume of flame about to engulf our beloved. I was glad that this had a happier end. And then I love the part where like Dan whips his helmet off and kisses his son. Lays a smooch on bow and then snuggles his son. You know what I mean? This is my number one candidate for where the helmet removal should have happened.

Even more so than the adoption ceremony to come right here. Do you think then given that the helmet never comes off? My theory in people got mad when I said this. But like, do you think then that like Pedro was just like never once on set? didn't step one booted foot on set this season. Maybe. I mean, I just don't understand how that could be possible,

but maybe. I hope that they find a way to a different outcome. I think this is why Brandon and Latif are, like, people are mentioning them a lot more in interviews. They're in the credits this season, like all that's our stuff. Oh, boy.

Well, another place that we didn't see Pedro's face was down in the Minds of Mandelaar in the Living Waters, where we go. Everyone's there, Joe, to watch. Dragner's Creed ceremony. Had to pick it up after it had been interrupted. This is where I wanted to talk to you a bit more about what you were mentioning earlier,

like where the season ultimately comes down on the way, on the Creed. Everyone there is wearing helmets. Are you reading that as just the armor is still, everybody's on the same page that Bo and her followers can take their helmets off as much as they want. We don't have to be quite so rigid. But Bo and Co. are showing the same respect in turn. This is a ceremony that is dear and sacred to you. We will respect your ways.

And how are you feeling overall about the kind of pro-crete place that the season landed in? I guess if the armor is, because we see them, we see, uh, Bo's followers take their helmets off during the lighting of the fort ceremony, right? They're not all helmeted for that. So since the armor is not saying, we all need to do it my way, it's like there are many ways to be a mandolarian, you know, like sort of thing. Then like, then like, then okay. Okay. Does that feel like enough in this season Like it's a gateway to more Of an embrace of other ways and customs

Like more acceptance, more progress Or does it just feel like This was A, not a big enough evolution For the children and B, as you noted earlier Our main character did not Not only not evolve but really interrogate His relationship to most of all It's mostly that because when people

So like the children of the watch I'm kind of okay with whatever But like And I apologize for calling them a cult this whole thing. It's a dead thing. It's like because if you look, a lot of people are like, this season finale has so much in common with the season two finale. How much has didn't really change? Like, what has he learned and grown and done and like whatever since the season two finale to now?

He did make a significant change from the season two finale to now. He just did it inside of the book of Oba Fett. That's where he made the change, which is like, I cannot let my son go. I need. I want my son. That, you know, and it's ultimately Grogo's choice. But he goes, he's yearning. He wants Grogo back.

I came all this way. You know, came all this way. That is the big difference between Dinn ready to give Grogu up at the end of season two and the DIN we meet the season. But over the course of this season, I would say DIN has not changed one a yoda at all. Right. Well, let's carry that into discussing the Dinn Grogue, foundling to Apprentice sequence. We heard this clip in full at the top of the episode, but we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll,

We'll discuss some of the key elements that unfold here. We learned that Groger was no longer a foundling. He's an apprentice. Din wants to add him to the song. The armor says he's too young. Our guy needs a permission slip, right? He needs a parental signature. I really thought, because specifically she says he's too young to speak,

I really thought that we were about to hear. Oh, and he zeroed in on his face. I thought it was going to happen. I thought he was going to utter his first word in basic, but he didn't, and I'm glad. I want to keep waiting as long as we can. but the look on Grogu's face, he looked so sad,

Joe, when the armor said that he had to remain a foundling. And again, like, just like when he ran it, Grogo, if you want to be a Mandalorian, you got to come with me when he ran into her workshop after her back at the Dino Cove.

Little moments like that where we see how badly he wants to be a part of this world are just so, so, so important. I want to know what you thought of Dinn saying, then I will adopt him as my own. Did this tug at the heartstrings?

Did you find this a little puzzling because you already considered the father and son, where did you land on this? What did Bo Katan say when she hopped into the fight with Mavkin? She said, I've got this. Go save your kid. Like, I mean, sure, we're making it a fit. We're filing the papers. That's fine.

But it's not like a big character. It's not like, oh my God, he's making it official. Like, he's already his kid. They already did that in Book of Boba Fitt. You know what I mean? So it's like, it felt kind of silly to me. That being said, when we listened to the clip at the beginning of this episode, you and I, I, like, almost started crying because it was so sweet. Because, like, Pedro is so good and, like, the goos and the gurgles.

So, I don't know if you heard this one before, but I'm of two minds. This is, yeah, this is just a classic on the, on the one hand, on the other finale and season three choice where I don't think any of us felt that they needed to file the formal paperwork. Like, part of the beauty of a found family story is that it's the choice. that you make when it's right for you. And I guess there is something nice about seeing this larger shared embrace, but again, like, that had happened. I think a moment, like,

when Din picks up Grogu for the challenge with the paintball sequence, this was happening already. The choice that Grogu made to leave Luke and go to Din. Now, I think the season, like if you think back to a moment like the premiere where Din basically,

like, says to grief, it's complicated. I guess the most charitable read you could make is that even Din himself still had like one step to take to formalize it. But I don't think we believe that because we just have seen in every decision that they've made to be together and to fight for each other and protect each other above all else that they already were father and son. All that said, I thought this was so beautiful. I told you this off pod, but I'm just going to say it for the benefit of our listeners that like there was a Reddit

comment I read and I'm so sorry I don't have the Redditor's name in front of me. they were like, this all, this adoption ceremony happens right in front of fucking Ragnar, whose dad literally just died. And the Redditor was like, and they'll never take that away from me. Like that was just so like hilarious and juicy. It's just tough beat after tough Baxter. Grok has got a dad though. Oh my God.

Whether whether we needed the formality, it was, it was beautiful. It did make me really emotional. I'm like to just, to just, again, you're pulled in so many directions because we have like the naming moment or Dinn takes Grogh, or Grogo takes Dyn's name. And there's something about that, Deng Grogh, Mandelorian Apprentice that is kind of like an amazing solidification. But then there's like, wait, it was Dinn his surname this whole time question that everybody has now spent a couple days on the internet asking each other? My assumption, perhaps wrongly, I assume they'll clarify this at some point because this is not a Mandalorian custom as far as we understand it based on all of the other Mandalorian characters we know. Right. It's like House Creeze, House Wren, House Rens.

Yeah, House Visla. That this is a custom from Dyn's home planet. Great, great theories. Love it. I don't know. It's the only thing that makes sense. Who do you think Dins teacher was? Because we get this interesting line, you must leave Mandelor and take your apartment.

apprentice on his journeys just as your teacher did for you. I don't know, but it would be... Is it a Vizelah? It would be a really fun, like parallel sort of storytelling in season four to see, like, Dyn training Grogu. And then, again, I'm writing fan fiction, but like, that could be fun to see, like, flashbacks of how Dind Jarn became an official mandolin. I like that.

That would be great. It does seem like season four will be part Dinn back as in the bounty hunter life. selecting his missions carefully, as he told Garcateva at Adelphi Base, fighting the Imperial Remnant, and also part this charge from the Armourer, his journeys, Grogu's journeys. So season four, firmly oriented around Din and Grogu and their adventures again. I'm delighted. What do you think that means for Bo and for Mandelor?

This is one of my confusing end notes where, again, I like the, and I say this as someone who loves Bo and loves Mandelor. I like repositioning the future of the show around Dinigrugu. I wonder, does Mandelor become a place like Navarro where they go occasionally and they visit their cherished friends? Is this priming us for a Bocatan Mandelor spin-off? Is this just about having the planet back and the characters in the mix for all of these other shows in the timeline? What do you think the role is moving forward for Bowenco? I mean, we're about to spend time with a very important Madelorian in Asoka in the shape of

of Sabine Ren, right? But we do have a question of like, where were the Mandalorians during the sequel trilogy? The same question we have of like, where was Grogo during the sequel trilogy, right? Where they just sort of like, were in the outer room and some of our business or, you know, what was going on?

Maybe he's off with the, he and his mythosaur who he, like, has this amazing animal forespon moment with here. Maybe they're off with the pergill. I feel like you are. No, this is happening. I am absolutely, I will say I'm astounded that it didn't happen here. I know, I know.

It's so funny to think back to episode two where we're like, I can't believe we got the Mithisor here. I thought we'd have to wait for the finale. Surely Grobu slash Bo slash Dan is going to ride him before the season's over. Anyway, it's fine. Hold it loosely. Hold it loosely. It's fine.

This amazing camera pan of Grogu looking. It's like not to invite another Grogu Gullum. because this was so wholesome and precious. But it's like Smeagel looking down in the water, you know? And the Mithesaur opens its eyes. This is an animal forespon. Grogu can sense the Mithesor. The Mithesor can sense him.

Grogu will ride the Mitha. He will ride it. And Cobb Vance will be in the season 3rd of the Mandalorian. No wait. He will ride it. Come on. Remember? Remember when Dindjorn brings Grief Karga a marshal.

but it's not Cobb band. All right, we're going to get that a second. Anything else about the Minnesota moment or the Ford

lighting or anything? But Bo and Co. Well, no, I don't know. Bo and Co. I think everything is a little

flexible in the world of Disney Plus Star Wars shows. Given the middling reception to this season, I wonder if they might lean a bit away from such a strong

Mandalorian representation Which is too bad because it's not Bo's fault. It's not Katie's fault. It's not, you know, like that's a bummer. That's not why. But it might be that they're like, okay, we went heavy Mandalorian. People didn't really like it.

Let's not. But I would bet all my money. Not very much, but I would bet all my money that Bo Catan is going to be in the film. If they're doing like an Avengers team up Thron film, bo's in that, for sure. But are we going to see her be on, like, one episode in the next season, Mandelorian? I don't know.

I feel like, I don't know. Maybe Sabine will just visit Mandelor. Maybe it'll be that. You can't bring back Mandelor to then do nothing with it. That would be so bizarre. I may. Well, we brought back IG because in addition to Din being like,

I'm a bounty hunter by trade. And nobody watching this show has forgotten in for a second. over the Delphi base. Grobu spots the... First of all, snacking, needed his calories. Couldn't wait to have a nash because, of course, Thin hasn't been feeding him.

And I'll never miss an opportunity to mention it to you. Okay. Never. We got so many emails about this and we got plenty of emails from cat owners. And I don't know what Halo is like,

but my cat, no matter how much I feed her, will want to eat anything. And like she acts like she's starving all the time when the vet could tell you that she is healthy, if not slightly over the way that she's supposed to be. And she is always going after food. I trust that you feed bug.

I know that Dinn is not doing a sufficient job of nurturing. Dinn, I don't know that. I do. John Favre, if you're listening to this podcast, I hope you're not. But if you are, please include many scenes in season four of Dinn feeding. Oh, my God. I mean, do you think Rogu eats that friggin' frog in the final scene of the episode? No, he let him go.

They're playing their bat. Do you think he wants to eat the Mithosaur? Is that what that was about? He's like, there's a hearty snack. Snack time. Oh, God. Well, he sees the IG head Joe and you didn't get Cobbant, but you got IG 11 as the Marshal of Navarro.

How do you feel about it? Like, honestly, that's even worse. Like, I, like, no Cobbant would have been less galling to me than Tyca getting a big moment here. Dude. I am here to serve and protect. the citizenry left out of the final cut was, I assume, against my will because these monsters have just been using my parts for their ends.

Horrible. And then we get, well, what I will say is there's been a lot of fan art of this, like, this beautiful final shot. I loved this. This was perfect. Of Dinger and Grogo. They've been like a lot of fan art where people just have inserted Cobbant into this scenario.

I would also accept Omera because Joe. Sure. But this is the sanctuary offer that Din didn't take. This was it, right? Yeah, but she's not leaving their like marshland for Navarro. The sole flats of Namaro. It's a boom time again. I don't know.

Cobb Banth either just out of frame or inside, perhaps he's inside making dinner. You know what I mean? And Mando's got his feet up. Grogu's playing. Grogu's well-fed. Maybe, okay, compromise. Grogu's well-fed for once because Cobbann, his other dad is here.

Yeah. Oh, my goodness. We get that. You can lay low with your new family if you choose so between adventures line from grief. A little season four set up from our guy, the high magistrate himself.

And the iris, Joe, zooming in on Grogu and Din. Relaxing peace at last. Beautiful final shot. Not no stinger. But did you watch all the way till they switched to like the foreign language credits? Absolutely. Yeah.

Of course. Absolutely. I was like maybe it's just a really quick Thron Hollow at the very end. And then it's like Poland and you're like, oh no. Okay. We're done here. We didn't get a stinger, but we are going to get a lot of Thron. We're going to get a lot of building toward the first order, etc.

And so you had the great idea to chat with our pal Ben Lindbergh today about some reading recommendations to prime people for the future of the Mandoverse. Let's bring on Ben. You had to have me back today after we just completely nailed Theory Corner last week. We crushed it. Kudos to us. It's uncanny how all over it we were. Do we have the force?

Yeah, we're in Favro's head. You know what? We had fun on the internet. It's fine. Yeah. We'll chat about Star Wars with my pals. Maybe the real finale was the theories we had along the way. I shall assume full responsibility and apologize to Lord Vader.

Then, table Vader for a second, though you might mention him. Yes. We talk about lore with you often, but today you're not going to dive into necessarily one kernel of lore from this finale. You're going to cast a wider lore net. We're doing a little book club. We're doing a little ringer verse recommends reading section because so many of the shows that are the future of the Mandalorian, Asoka, skeleton crew, all these movies we keep hearing about,

et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, clearly going to hinge on the rise of the First Order, the fall of the New Republic, our buddy Thron, et cetera. And so Joe had the great idea that you, a scholar, a reader. Well read, yes. An enthusiast. A man of letters. Literate. Would maybe like to highlight some of the laureate.

or primers for our beloved house of our listeners so that people can start getting ready, starting anticipating all the lore you might talk about in the future. Where do you want to direct people to spend their time? I've got a few recommendations teed up here. Although I'd like to throw out this. I'd be curious to hear from our listeners about how their relationship to written stories has changed in this era of nonstop screen projects. Because I was thinking about this as I was preparing this list because when we were kids,

back in our day, books and comics and maybe video games were kind of it, right? At least in Star Wars when I first got into Star Wars, that was the only way I was getting my fix, right? And it's not like there's any less being published now. There's still a ton, but I'm the resident Star Wars nerd and I still have to pick my spots with this stuff because as much as I like Star Wars, I also like other things. Star Wars could become my entire media diet if I watched and played and read everything. I'd have no time for anything else. plenty of time to watch Adley Rutchman's at Bats. I understand. Exactly. That's what I'm doing. Yeah. And what I'm doing. Because the novels and the stories were so central to what Star Wars was decades ago,

that's what gave characters like Thron and Pellion, who were making their transition to live action now, just the aura that they have, the significance that they have, right? Because they date from that heyday of the expanded universe when they were all we have. But I wonder whether that'll still happen now, that there are constant TV shows, in theory, maybe some movies someday. Will we still get breakout characters from the books? Will we get a Dr. Afra TV series, for instance? I guess we got Cobb Vance, which means a lot to Joanna. So there's something there.

Did we get enough? Did we get enough of Cobb Vance, though? That's the question. But books and comics are sort of in a subordinate supporting role, right? Instead of pushing the plot forward. It's all about we're psyched for Asoka. So what should we read to know more about that, as opposed to the other way around.

So it depends, I guess, if we're talking about Star Wars or Star Trek or Marvel, all of these franchises have different approaches to canon and continuity. But I'd be curious to hear whether people are digging into this stuff as much as they used to or whether they find that there's just so much on screen now that it's hard to find the time or that they don't find it as rewarding. I hope they do because there's still a lot of great stuff and I'm about to list some of it. I think it's kind of interesting too because, like, you know, they've been so busy over at Lucasfilm Story Group turning out these comics and these books.

And my understanding is that, like, they're not that interested in doing on-screen adaptations of those stories that they put in the books and the comics. So, like, anything we would get with those characters would be supplemental to what we already know. Between this and that. Yeah. And that means they've already cemented so many stories, like phasma or something, you know, like, we're not going to get a phasma prequel because we already have her story in the book and stuff like that.

And so on the one hand, that's cool because I love to read. I love comics. Like, I'm glad we're expanding out that way. But it also further hems them in on where those cracks and crevices are. Exactly. Yeah. Whereas decades ago when there were no movies for years and years at a time and no TV shows, it was, you know, that was the cutting edge. That was we're pushing the story forward.

And it's just the books. So that's what you have to read to figure out where things are going next. But there's still a lot of extra info that can deepen your appreciation of. of the things that we're watching, which is what we're talking about today. So there's a lot of Thron out there, right? Just a lot of Thron texts. Just a full Thron library. You could start reading all the Thron books now and you would not be done by the time Osoka started. So you might have to be selective, but there are 12 Timothy Zon books about Thron and some are canon, some are not. I would say, and maybe this is Nassalja speaking, but you can't go wrong,

just going all the way back to Air to the Empire, the 1991 book that started at all. No longer canon, but wouldn't put it past Dave Floni to pull some elements from that trilogy, as he pulled Thron himself. And also just to understand why people care about this character and his outside significance to the fan base that has been following Star Wars for years, I think it might be helpful to go back and give that a look. To be fair, I don't know how it holds up. It's been a while.

I thought it was great in fourth grade. Perhaps it's not as great as an adult, but maybe it is. I hope it is. So I would recommend that at least based on my warm, fuzzy memories. But there are recent Thron Trilogies, two canon trilogies, the Thron trilogy and the Thron ascendancy trilogy. The Thron trilogy was published first, but comes later in the timeline closer to the TV series.

So I'd say if you were picking one of those, probably start there. the ascendancy trilogy is a prequel about a younger Thrawn, but the Thron trilogy, which came out in 2017 or started then and was announced at the same time as the announcement of Thrawn's appearance in Rebels, is about how Thron joined the Empire and worked with Palpi and Vader and how his loyalties are divided between the empire and his people, the Chis. So a lot of that I think probably could be relevant to Asoka, depending on what he's been doing all these years. and just to get a sense of his character, I think. You got to sample some Tim's On if we're getting psyched for Thron. The first Star Wars novels I ever read were the aftermath books I started reading last week because I wanted to contribute to Lower Corner, right? So I'm so ignorant when it comes to Star Wars novels and I'm so excited. I mean, like, yes, we did get emails from people asking for this, but maybe I'm also just

like personally motivated to get Ben's recommendations. You could have slacked me, Joe. Fair. But the, you know, our colleague van, who's, you know, an old school Gen X Star Wars fan, like the heir to the empire mentioned in the Asoka trailer just sent him off on this multi-day rhapsodizing about that original Thrawn book from Timothy Zon. And something I've heard also, you know, as I've been like trying to gather recommendations, a lot of people recommend these Thrawn books, all of them, all the trilogies that

you mentioned, et cetera, in audiobook form because Mark Thompson is a narrator of all six of the current ones and the legend. There's like an anniversary edition of the Legends one that he did as well. And apparently, you know, like as I love to read a book, I love to listen to a book. I don't really see a difference. But a good or bad narrator can make or break a book in audiobook format. And like Mark Thompson, according to people as like an elite narrator. So I think I'm going to try these on audio. I'm really excited. for that. That's awesome. Our pal, a friend of the pod, Jason Mansuchus is a huge proponent of the audiobooks for the Thron series. He gives it a fervent recommendation. I have mentioned the new

canon throne books many times as favorites. And I think that like if you've seen rebels, it's extra delightful to see the canon crossovers and adjacencies. But if you haven't, it's like actually a really nice way to maybe pursue both of those things in tandem and or just like flesh out your feel for that stretch of the timeline. The exposure to Thrawn as like a thinker, I think is just my favorite thing about that books. You get to meet a lot of other interesting characters and imperial figures. This is a big Eli Vantopod here, you know, around these parts.

We stand Eli. But things that we've talked about a lot in a rebels context, like the way that Thrawn will study cultures art to understand how to put together a battle. plan or understand a foe, that is present page to page, paragraph to paragraph, the way that he studies facial expressions, body language. And I think like something that Joe and I were talking about on a recent pod that's really interesting about Thron as a figure and that we're really looking forward to seeing in live action is Joe put it as like Thron as a manager. And I think that that is obviously present in Rebels 2. Bill, like you get a great feel for it in the Zahn novels because like the

way that he will work with one of his team members to get to a given outcome. And the people who don't understand him or like in Gideon mold maybe are threatened by him always think that it's some set up for a dunk because that's how they would operate. That's how they would interact. They'd always be trying to one up somebody else. And then Thron just like can't wait to congratulate somebody who has made a forward step with him. I think it's just they're really interesting and cool and he's a fascinating character. So you can't recommend them enough. And you're going to want to get to know the good guys too. So watch rebels obviously or rewatch rebels. Can't go wrong, but there are also some books about Rebels' characters or about the characters on the other side of things from Thron. So a New Dawn by John Jackson Miller, which was published in 2014, it's the first novel in the new canon, the Disney rebooted canon. And it includes a foreword by our guy Dave Faloni. And it's a prequel to Rebels. So it's about Canaan and about Hara and about the Imperial Admiral Ray Sloan, who may or may not play a part in these proceedings, but also appears in the aftermath books. So it's just sort of the road to rebels who are these

people, what were they doing before we joined them in the show? And then similarly, the Asoka novel, which has come up before on the podcast, but this is the 2016 book by E.K. Johnston, some aspects of it sort of superseded by Tales of the Jedi and the Clone War season seven, because this was a book that came out after the Clone Wars was canceled. And before we knew that it would come back and that Asoka would eventually get her own series. So this was sort of fleshing out what happened to Asoka before we knew that we would get much, much more Asoka, which is wonderful. But there's a lot in here, too, that fills in some of the blanks about what she's been up to. Love the purifying of the previously bled lightsaber crystals to get those signature white blades.

It's a really, really fun stretch to the can. And it's always fun to get some more lightsaber lore and khyber crystal mythology insights. So it's a fun book for that, too, in addition to the character. And my remaining wrecks are all about the rise of the First Order or the dissolution of the empire in that hazy time period that we're gradually learning more about. So the Aftermath Trialogy, which we just mentioned and which has come up before on the podcast, this is by Chuck Wendig. It started in 2015, gave birth to Cobb Vance, first and foremost.

But also, it was part of a big publishing project that was called Journey to Star Wars, The Force Awakens, which was supposed to link the sequel trilogy to the original trilogy, and help explain how certain things returned and certain people returned and how we went from Empire to First Order. So this introduces a lot of the stuff that we talked about in last week's lower corner, Rendell Hux and the Shadow Council and the Battle of Jeku. And of course, my man, Masameta, always going to recommend any Masamara content. You can only be you, Ben.

Yeah. You can only be you. You're about 30 seconds away from defending the empire, and then we'll have Ben Bingo. And kind of a companion piece to the aftermath trilogy is the Shattered Empire Marvel Comics, written by Greg Rucker. It's just four issues, so pretty quick read. Also published in 2015 and really introduced Operation Cinder, which we discussed last week. Paupe's plan to burn down the empire and have it rise from the ashes. And just two more, Alphabet Squadron, which is by Alexander Fried. It started in 2019. This is a trilogy of novels.

And it's set after Return of the Jedi, it's about a group of New Republic pilots who were hunting down imperial pilots called the Shadow Wing, not to be confused with the Shadow Council. A lot of shadowy activities going on during this time period. But Herr is in it, or at least in part of and Operation Cinders in it. And it just, along with the aftermath trilogy and the Shattered Empire, it kind of conveys that things didn't end with the Battle of Endor, that the yubnub and the celebrations at the end of return of the Jedi was not actually the end of the war or the end of the story. And really, once the celebrations died down, people realized, oh, there's still actually

a lot of empire out there, actually. Not everyone knows that the emperor is dead, and not everyone accepts that. and not everyone wants to lay down their arms. So you had this period of the rebels kind of awkwardly transitioning into a governing leadership phase while also trying to root out the remnant of the empire and have a formal surrender. So it's all about that kind of chaotic period that, as we know, eventually leads to the rise of the first order. And finally, fast forwarding a couple of decades here, we have Bloodline by Claudia Gray from 2016. And this has also come up in our previous conversations, but it's set about six years before the Force Awakens.

So it incorporates some of the backstory that was developed for that movie, as well as some input from Ryan Johnson. And it's just basically about politics and tensions in the New Republic and the Senate and Leah being outed as the daughter of Darth Vader and how that affects her political career. Not well. You can imagine the attack ads when that. came out. But it's basically about the birth of the resistance. Think of the tweets. Yeah. Yeah. The discourse was not great. So that's kind of the best look we have at why there's a resistance that's different from the New Republic and why Leah doesn't have more allies and why the First Order is allowed to grow and fester. So that sort of sets the stage for the sequel trilogy. But we'll probably get

much more info as we watch more of the Mandoverse and continue reading. Excellent. I can't wait to like read all of these things and then try to be somewhere near your level by the time we get to the Asoka show. That's my mission for myself. I'm really excited. It'll be much fresher in your mind than it is in mine. So you'll have that advantage at least. Just hitting the little booster button on the N1, zipping right past Ben with some summer reading. Love it. Delightful. Ben, thank you for the recommendations. Thank you for all of the lore insights and. theorizing this season. It was a joy as always. We can't wait to talk about Asoka with you. You'll be back on the feed in the meantime with some Jedi Survivor video game talk. You're going to have some Zelda video game talk.

Ben will have some video game pods come in for everyone. So stay tuned for that. Well, it was a spotty season, but our conversations were as wonderful as always. So thank you. Thank you, Ben. Joanna. Yeah. Easter eggs.

Favorites? I'm just going to pick one and it's this. After our phenomenally memo we got last week about the lack of Besscar on the thighs, the Mandalorian, I was pleased at least to see Bo deploy a knee rocket. Great maneuver from Bo. I am going to go with the multiple season one finale callbacks that we got from Grogu. Using the back to spray, fending off the flame. I just, I really loved all of that.

That was wonderful. That was wonderful. I thought you were going to mention maybe your guy Gus from Breaking Bad. But no. Oh, because, well, spoiler should Breaking Bad. Wig Watch? Do you wear wigs? Yeah.

Okay. So this is where we're just going to once again say, wouldn't it have been nice to have seen the sweaty, helmeted, haired head of Pedro Pescal in this episode. Yes, many a Mandalorian, including the lovely Kitty Sackoff, Boca Tan, took their helmet off. But Pedro's air has been so good of late in the unbearable weight of mass of talent on SNL

in The Last of Us. So I would like, I would like to see the baby. I would like to see Pedro's hair in season for John Fevereaux, I know you're still listening. Please make that happen. Thank you. Fantastic. Okay.

If the show had Netflix subtitles, Coo Corner. I will miss that. Me too. What do you got? Legions of spongy Gideon clones. Flush noisily. I love it.

Okay. I had a Gideon clone one, but I had it. I had a, alt prepared in case you went that way. Historically strong Baskar Hill cannot be established to be of a quality our protagonist

has never seen before. Unceremoniously crumbles like hollowed pretzel shell in PD fueled moff superpowered hands. Well, that all fit on one screen. I really need to get better at these. I genuinely like often wing them and you're like

I have written you a paragraph. This is, this is actually very typical of us. Secret force user. Here you got. Axe woes. That's my victim. It has to be. Flew to space. Survive the Thai assault

on the light cruiser. Crashes the burning ship into precisely the right spot, which I think shows some force, some force attuned ability. Ejects at precisely the right moment. Our guy, our guy axe. who we never doubted and were always in supportive.

We loved him from start to finish. Joanna, any final thoughts on season three of the Mandalorian? I had such an amazing time skumping through this season with you. Couldn't imagine a person I would rather scomp with. Thanks to Ben, of course, for always popping up and doing what he does. Thanks to Steve for being your all season. Thank you very much to Carlos for hopping in for the finale here. while Steve's on vacay.

Great heart-stopping deployment of bad baby. Loved it. No squeezy. And I, Tim Asoka's going to be great. And I'm very excited, as I mentioned, for the Troops course episode next week. I think that's going to be really fun. So, yeah. I can't wait for the Troops course.

I can't wait for Asoka. Can't wait to be back here with you every week and over on prestige. Check us out there as well. If we don't take out Mof Gideon, this will never end, and it must. That's a wrap. It's a wrap. Thank you, as Joe said, to our commandos. Carlos Chiroboga for producing this episode, Arjuna Ram Gapal, for his additional production work on this episode, and Jomea Danneron for his work on the social for this episode.

We will see you next week for our Troops course on Magical Blades. The Midnight Boys will see you next week on Wednesday for their midnight court. Until then, let it be written in song. That's a wrap. season three.