The Ringer-Verse - The Marvel Villain Rankings With Clay Keller | House of R

Episode Date: February 11, 2023

Mal and Joanna are joined by special guest Clay Keller of the ‘Screen Drafts Podcast’ to conduct a draft ranking of the greatest on-screen MCU villains (20:47). Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Guest: Clay Keller Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

When you're lost in the darkness, look for the pod. Specifically, the Prestige TV podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network, where we're breaking down every new episode of HBO's The Last of Us. On Sunday nights, grab your battery and join Van Lathen and Charles Holmes for an instant reaction to the latest episode. Then head back to the QZ on Tuesdays for a deep dive with Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin. From character arcs to video game adaptation choices, story themes to needle drops, we'll parse every inch of this cordyceps-coded universe.

Watch out for mouth tendrils and follow along on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Trimfaya, proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease

and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit trimfair radio.com. This episode is brought to you by Prime.

Obsession is in session. And this summer, Prime Originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories, and the book-to-screen favorites you've already read twice. Off-campus, L, every year after, the love hypothesis, Sterling Point, and more. Slow Burns. Second chances. Chemistry you can feel through the screen.

Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime. You could not live with your own failure. Where did that bring you? Back to me. Darling, you have no idea what's possible. I'm the man who can give you the one thing you want. An empire toppled by its enemies can rise again.

But one which crumbles from with you. that's that. Into the Ringerverse here on the Ringer podcast network. I'm Mallory Rubin and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only to the Quantum Realm, but also to join us on the Ringer's Nexus podcast

feed for all things fandom. Joining me today, filled, positively overflowing with glorious purpose. It is my house of our co-host, Joanna.

Robinson. You know, Mal, you've been around. You've recorded a lot of people, but where's that bring you back to me? Oh, boy. If anyone can't tell from the opening clips, from the references so far in the intro, we are one week out from Quantum Mania, which means we're one week out from King the Conqueror, which means MCU villains are on our minds. We're going to be talking villains today.

we will explain how in just a moment, but before we go Subatomic for that exercise, some quick programming reminders, as always, this Wednesday of the Midnight Boys. Beep-poo! Conducted their second annual Black Heroes of Fandom character draft that is up for you right now in the feed. Please enjoy that if you haven't yet.

Next week, this is an actual programming update. Slightly different schedule than usual. Mint Edition will be here on Monday to break down all of the Super Bowl trailers that hit the nerdverse. Okay, junior mince, get ready. Then on Friday, not Wednesday, Friday, the Midnight Boys will be back with their instant reaction to Ant Man and the Wasp Quantumania. That means no House of R next week. However, great news.

You'll be able to hear us elsewhere and then lots of times on House of R the week after that. We will be on the prestige TV podcast feed on. Monday of this coming week for the Last of Us episode five deep dive. Monday, not Tuesday, because that episode of The Last of Us is posting early because of the Super Bowl. Then the week of February 20th, Ant Man Deep dive on Monday. That Friday, the 24th, Mando season three preview time.

Top Mando Moments. Mando watch list. All of the Mando goodness. I'll be holding multiple bids. of Grogu merch in my arms crying as I pod. Will I have a Baskar helmet on and try to get my headphones to work in concert with it? Who can say? We'll find out on Zoom together.

Joe, how can the people follow all of that? Oh, my God. I'm so glad you asked me because there's a lot, you know, there's a lot going on in a schedule manner. Anyway, okay, listen, follow the podcast. Why not? Why not just subscribe to both this and the Prestiast's TV podcast feed if you want to hear us talk about the last of us, which why wouldn't you? So subscribe to both those feeds. Follow us on

social. Jomey's doing a lot of great work on all various platforms, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, etc., great stuff. Also, you can always email us hobbits and dragons at gmail.com. That's hobbits and dragons at gmail.com. The Apple debate continues to rage. Horrifying chapter developed over on the Prestige TV podcast. Really? this thing. Truly distressing. One of the worst things I've ever heard. Mushroom recipes are cooking.

You know, if you have Mando prep questions, all that kind of stuff, you can send it to Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. That's it. Joanna. Yeah. It's not it. I have one more question for you and it's this. What did I forget?

Can you tell our cherished listeners? Yeah. What is in store for them today on this year podcast episode? Okay, beloved pals, you've heard many kinds of drafts on the ringer, perhaps over on the big pick. You just heard the Midnight Boys go toe to toe on Wednesday. Malloy and I are doing a very special... Whoa, you didn't mention the hype draft that we did, which I won. Why didn't you put that one up when you were going through recent drafts?

That was weird. I don't know, because whoever lost that draft, that was a horrible miscarriage of justice. I need to get that mention in at the top before I embarrass myself to do. Give me this one moment in the sun. I honor your win, but I refuse to acknowledge my complete decimation in that draft. Yeah, so the hype draft, that's the thing. But today we're doing something a little special. We've got a pal over from a different podcast, a screen drafts podcast.

Clay Keller is going to be joining us a little bit to commission a draft for us that is a very special kind of collaborative, competitive draft. Clay will be able to explain all the details, but essentially at the end of all of this, Mallory and I will have together, but also in that sort of feisty fighting ringer verse way, combatively put together our 15 top Marvel villains. We are doing movie-only MCU villains. There are some particulars that we can talk about, but that is what we're doing today. We're really excited. I thought this was going to be a really simple exercise, and then I got into it. And I was like, oh, no, there's a lot going on. So, yeah, we're drafting today. I hear chaos is a ladder, though. That's a villain from a different IP universe.

So we'll see if that applies here today. Where's Aidan Gillen in the MCU? That's my question. Just workshop in a new accent. Yeah. At all times. At all times. We'll see.

Okay. So the why. The why are the villains on our mind. As mentioned, King awaits. We're on the eve of kingdom. the EU of being conquered. MCU Phase 5, finally kicking off

next Friday, February 6th, Ant Manon in the Waf, Quantum Mania, and the film's main villain, of course, is Jonathan Majors' King, the Conqueror, who is not just the primary villain of this movie, but we now know, after the clarity about phases 5 and 6 and the slate in the multiverse saga,

the big bad, the main central Thanos-level threat, of this saga of the MCU. So there's a lot on the line. Let's chat for a few minutes here, Joe, before we get into our drafting and our ranking about what we're expecting from King. We met He Who Remains, the variant, and Nathaniel Richards variant in Phase 4's Loki.

And that was an absolute thrill. So we have some very encouraging, encouraging evidence in front of us that we should be expecting something marvelous here. What are you looking forward to most from Kang? What is on the line? For Marvel, for Phase 5 for the Multiverse saga,

heading into an Ant-Man movie where we have typically gotten less central, less prominent villains in prior installments. Yeah, this is a surprising place, but maybe not so surprising, given the way that Thanos was sort of... In the Guardians' town.

Yeah, seated in, you know? But it's... they're, depending on how you look at it, look at it, there's a lot writing on this. Depending on how you feel about phase four, some people are really, really low on phase four, all the movies that have come out since endgame. Some people are high on it. Some people are agnostic about it. They're just like, I'm just here for a good time, not a long time, like whatever it is.

But, you know, if you are hoping that the MCU will sort of, if you feel like the MCO needs to rebound, then I think this idea of coalescing around a big threat like Kang, and Kang who, canonically in the comics, can go through time, can appear in multiple guises, like is very flexible as a villain

and can just sort of spread out everywhere. Something you and I have talked about, Mel, is like how after the Loki finale, we expected Kang to show up, like, in everything. Yes, a new variant in every single. In every single thing,

and we haven't seen him since. So, you know, and it's possible that we will see him everywhere going forward, but that has not, the era of Kang has not started yet. So, you know, in a certain way, from a certain point of view, there's a lot writing on Kang. And, you know, that excites me because we were not podcasting regularly together during Loki season one, but I know that you and I shared a thrill of that finale where they zagged from a lot of, you know, Marvel final confrontation, quote unquote, the Marvel third.

act problem, et cetera, by having a character monologue for most of the episode and sort of just talk our heroes into something. And Jonathan Majors is such an idiosyncratic performer, so interesting, so compelling, that I'm really excited to see what he does. So I'm a brimming with enthusiasm and excitement for King. How are you feeling, Mal? I'm similarly hyped. I'm really looking forward to the movie.

In general, I really like the Ant Man franchise, and I think that part of what I've always loved about it is the quirk and the charm and relatively speaking, the small zoomed-in stakes. Like, it's important in the context of Thanos. This is something we've chatted about a lot on our various pods over the years, to be able to like, look at your house,

look at your street, look at your neighborhood, remind you of what's on the line for you and your family all around you. So when you shift the Ant-Man franchise, which of course is always connected to the quantum physics of it all and gave us our end-game quantum tunnel time ice plot. It puts so much of this movie in the quantum realm and center it so fully and hitch it so fully to this larger time travel,

multiversal plot that is defining this stretch of the MCU. It's an interesting balance. Like, will the film be able to hold on to that heart and that particular sensibility that made it so specific while also unlocking this really crucial elemental next phase of the MCU mythology. I'm excited to see how that plays out because there's not just a lot on the line for this movie. You know, we're setting up. Who knows how many, like you just said, we thought we were going to see Kang and everything after Loki.

Who knows how many times that will actually be true after Ant Man. But we do know that we're building no matter how many steps there are along the way that feature Kang or a, Nathaniel Richards variant, we're building to Avengers the King Dynasty. We're building

to Avengers Secret Wars. Like, this is the road toward the most consequential installments in the multiverse

saga. Kang is at the heart of it all. The Thanos point that you made was on my mind a lot too

because, of course, we get our very first, you know, initial glimpse in the form of a wink and a death mention of Thanos in Avengers,

but he's lurking. He's in the shadows. And of course, the Infinity Stones are dotted throughout phase one, and that is there from the beginning. But I think there's, despite all of the angst in real time

as phase four was unfolding about, what are the unifying threads, and who will the primary threat be, and where are we going, and what are we working toward, that when we look back further in phase five and certainly in phase six, we will see that there are pretty clear correlaries

both on the king front. And if you swap the multiverse, the explosion and shattering of the sacred timeline, the way that we've begun to explore the different continuities and universes to the way that the Infinity Stone canon was sprinkled and dusted

throughout and eventually stitched together into a more centralized deployment. So I'm hyped. Like you said, I love the point about the just monologuing because that's the other thing that they have to nail, right? When you're talking about multiverses,

it's big. It's mind bending. That's part of the fun and that's part of the draw, but it can be, it can be on more. for viewers at a certain point. And so if you're able to anchor it in that Tyrion Lanister-esque, like, great conversations

in elegant rooms, it gives it a human face and a beating heart that ultimately is going to feel really gripping and magnetic, just like that Loki finale, which is still one of the best hours of Marvel ever. And Joe, crucially, when we trace, talk about tracing things back, tracing back the canon, the origin of the Apple discussion. You're on the ring of verse. Eating a Granny Smith. You know it to be true.

Already shaping our lives. To go back to your, just to circle back to your point about like once we look back on phase four, yeah, or phase five and four together, something like that, like it will feel intentional or stitched together. And I do have a lot of faith in. Yeah, I do. Yes. And I do have a lot of faith in Marvel to be able to do that. And I think something that people forget about the Infinity saga and Thanos and all that sort of stuff is that it wasn't an intention.

intentional plan that they laid brick by brick leading up to endgame. I know you know this, but like, you know, for something like guardians, the first guardians, like that was a wacky one-off. Let's see if people like this. And if they don't, we'll just sort of kind of pretend it didn't happen. And so the fact that Thanos has such a role to play in there is so interesting because, like, there is a world in which the guardians are never folded into the larger continuity. Or similarly, the Infinity Stones, like it wasn't their plan all along to see the Infinity

stones necessarily in the way that it wound up happening. But to your point, what Marvel is really good at is that eventual stitch job that makes it all feel cohesive and woven together. So I'm with you that I'm really hopeful we will feel that weaving the tapestry from them in phase five. Yeah. Imagine thinking that there was a future that didn't hinge in full on Awesome Mix, Volume 1. I just can't fathom it. Yeah, I actually have a lot more to say about that, but I'll say that for a different time. Joe, are you more of a... When we think about the comics canon and the history, which obviously we will delve into much more deeply on our quantumania deep dive pod,

which again, you can hear on the ringerverse on Monday, February 20th, follow the pod on Spotify wherever you get your podcast. It's a teaser. Yeah. Are you more of a Rama Tutthead? you more of an amorous head. Has it been Iron Lad for you all along? Part of what is so interesting and compelling about King, this time-traveling variant spawning villain

who is able, because of the timeline connections, to face off with and confront not only so many different versions of himself that spawned across the canon, but so many different versions of our heroes, all of these fabled comic run showdowns with the Festic 4, with the Avengers, etc. Is there something in the comics canon that you want to throw out on today's pod ahead of the eventual film deep dive that stands out to you as like something you really enjoy about the way Kang is deployed in the text on the printed page, something that you think teases and promises a bright MCU future? As you know, because we are going to be doing like a massive Doctor Who piece this year, I love a wibious. wobbly, timey-wimmy sort of storyline.

So I think that Iron Ladd, which is the Allen-Hinberg Young Avengers, a story of a version of Kang who jumps from his own timeline to try to make himself a hero as a young man to avoid his villainous future. There's something really beautiful about that. I think that's such an interesting story. Are they going to do that in the MCU? I don't know. We've been talking for literal years now about the little...

The little seeds of Young Avengers, including this. Everything. The Young Avengers seeds that we've seen everywhere. Mallory and I have not seen Quantumania. We don't know what happens in quantumania. So anything that we're talking about here is just like theoretical or whatever. Pure speculation. Absolutely.

But I think that idea of a Kang who, I mean, like, unless they go real wild with the visual effects, that's probably not a character that can be played by Jonathan Majors, then that's, you know, not my favorite outcome necessarily. But I think Iron Ladd is so interesting, this idea of someone who sees their future as a villain and tries to make themselves a hero. That is such a complicated, sticky idea. What do you think? Yeah, I think like, well, I'll speak for myself. I would have said heading into Loki that the idea of seeing anyone other than my God King, Tom Hittleston, playing Loki, would have been an affront and an offense to we the MCU viewing public. And of course, that was part of the real joy of watching Loki, was not only seeing the different versions of Hiddleston variants,

but other performers embodying a different version of Loki entirely. I guess, by the way, on this front, we should issue a spoiler warning for today, which we didn't do, which is just anything that's ever happened in the MCU. So, buckle up. We can talk about anything that's ever happened inside of the MCU for Marvel Comics or related IP from, other studios that have some shared character rights or co-production.

So basically just superheroes and comics. Yeah. That's the spoiler warning for today. Some DC stuff might come in. You never know. Joe, is there anything else on the Kang front, on the Quantumania front, on the what makes for a successful Marvel villain front that you want to hit up top, we will probably stitch throughout our draft and our ranking the what makes for a successful Marvel

villain logic as we go. Yeah. But in this opening snapshot, in terms of the big picture variables, anything else you want to hit before we dive in? I don't think so. I have a lot of, I do have a lot of points I want to hit, but I think we're going to hit them as we talk about individual characters. It's been really fun for me to think about what, because there's some things we've talked about in the past about what makes a great Marvel villain. But I feel like this is going to allow, I mean, we're going to be zipping through a lot. We've got 15 villains to go. But there's a lot to talk about.

I'm really excited. How about you? Anything big picture you want to hit? I don't think so. I'm ready. Should we bring on our guests? Let's bring in Clay. Want to support your gut health? Take Activia's gut health challenge by enjoying two Activia yogurt today for two weeks and see if you feel a difference. With billions of probiotics and 20 years of scientific expertise, Activia is one of the easiest and tastiest ways to start your gut health ritual. Try Activia today. Enjoying Activia twice a day for two weeks as part of a balanced diet and healthy lifestyle may help reduce the frequency of minor digestive discomfort, which includes gas, bloating, rumbling, and abdominal discomfort.

For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Trimphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Tramphia, proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them,

and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramfaya today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Tramphiatoradio.com. The playoffs are here and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul Predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, and misses.

Predict the spread, the total points, and even the game winner. Sign up for Fandual Predicts and predict it from the couch. Banduel prediction markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant. 18 plus. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tools. Clay Keller, hello. How are you?

I almost just said welcome. I'm so not used to being a guest on podcast. Yes, hello. Thank you for having me. This is, I'm so excited about this. We're so excited you're here. Something I don't know that you've ever seen is Mallory in her draft phase. And even though this is collaborative, it's fun.

No, Mal, it's a great time. Yeah, I don't think that'll be the energy today. That's what you said last time. No, but we were, we were fucking rivals then. You were my foe and I needed to thwart you. We were nemesies. That was the point and the intent and my sacred mission, which I held dear. But today, I'm viewing this as working toward a shared future and building something together.

that fills us both with joy and pride. Clay, can you explain to folks? Is that not what you're working? Well, basically anything anyone predicts before a screen drafts is a famous last word. It's you, I, I love your energy.

I love the positivity. I can tell that you're going to be. Wait, really the first time anyone has ever said those two things back to back. I can tell you're going to be. I love your positivity. No, that's not true. That's your hallmark except in a draft space.

Yeah. And I just want you to remember that last time the hype draft, you were like, this is going to be a nice draft. And then Sean got ground under your heel. You know what I mean? I thought that we would all be excited and celebratory talking about things we were looking forward to watch. But also that we would all want to destroy each other, which again is not my mindset today.

Okay. That is, Amalie, absolutely, I always encourage people to go into these as optimistically as possible. And I love, I love your energy

if only because it'll make what eventually happens all that more tragic. Yeah, it usually works out for the Marvel heroes when they face the villains with a really optimistic sunny outlook.

I can get through to you. We can solve this together. We're not so different, you and I. You guys were talking about Iron Lad seeing his eventual villainous self and wanting to go back and change things.

I have a hunch, that's how you'll feel at the end of this. But we'll see. Sometimes these things are totally copacetic and everybody is just, please just punch at the end. Joanna, did you want me to explain? Sorry, I'm just going to keep going into host mode unless you stop me. But tell me what you would like from me next.

I would love for you to become the host of this draft and explain to you know our listeners who have never heard of screen drafts how you can be both collaborative. and competitive on a draft. At the same time. Well, yes, thank you, Joanna and Mallory. This is Screen Drafts is presented by the Ringerverse.

I'm Clay Keller. I host what we call commission a show called Screen Drafts where we make definitive best of lists of given topics of movies. And as Joanna said, we have a spirit, an ethos of competitive collaboration. Now, a lot of people, I know a lot of people listening to this and are in the Ringer universe,

understand sports. So they're probably going to say, wait a minute, what you just said. Joanna included. Definitely understand sports. Understand sports. You probably understand what the word draft means. Put that out of your head. The way we use the word draft doesn't really relate to drafts at all.

You know, this is not a fantasy football style draft where Mallory and Joanna will be picking things from a pool to put onto their own teams and then to compare afterwards and pick a winner and a loser. Mallory and Joanne are going to be more like co-GMs in a back office trying to put together their perfect single definitive roster. It's more backroom bargaining here in a competitive collaborative sense. What's going to happen is there's going to be a drafter A and a drafter B. Draftor A is going to get to make picks 15, 14, 12, 10, 8, 6, 4, and 2 on the list. That's 8 overall.

Drafter B is going to make picks 13, 11, 9, 7, 5, 3, and number 1. So that's fewer picks. That's only 7. They do get the number 1 pick, and they're going to get another kind of bonus thing that I'll talk about in a second. So it's an alternating situation going back and forth. Joanna and Mallory are going to be making the single definitive best-of list for the top. today, which is MCU movie villains. And it's not a situation where there is a winner or a loser,

either for Mallory or for Joanna or even for the world. The only winner is the entire world, because this is the new unimpeachable, definitive, canonical best-of-list for villains. So Mallory and John, are you feeling confident to bear this burden for the rest of the world? Or are you nervous going into this? Joanna, you were saying up top, you felt pretty confident, as you always do when you come on the show. You're feeling pretty confident.

And then right before you were looking at it again and saying, oh, no, oh, no, oh, no. It's, I'm confident about the top and I'm curious about the middle and I'm really scared about the bottom. So, you know, like the – and one approach to screen drafts is you can just like relax about the bottom and just have fun and be chaotic at the bottom because it's lower stakes. But, you know, Mal and I have spent a lot of time talking about the MCU. I've listened to Mallory in her binge mode era talk about the MCU a lot. So, like, I think I know all of her opinions, but, like, there's a devious little brain up there. And I don't know what's going to happen. And I'm frankly, often terrified of Mallory in a draft scenario.

And so I'm excited for this to test our friendship. Mallory, do you agree that Joanna probably knows all of your opinions? Or do you have a couple of tricks up your sleeve? No, I have no secrets from Joe. There's not going to be a single thing I say today that surprises her. I will be surprised by something she says, though, I think. She's a rich and nuanced text. And I'm just out here like Loki, though, for years on the Ringer Podcast Network.

You know, it's my, I think my favorites are well as well. established. We'll see, though, I do believe. And this is where I think I'm simultaneously most confident and most prepared to be wrong, that there is a clear, almost inarguable, top nine. Top nine. Wow. Now, not the order necessarily. I think you could quibble on how how the characters are ranked inside of the nine, but I think the characters who should be in the top nine are clearly the characters who should be in the top nine. So if we don't agree on that,

this is the source of my anxiety today, because my worry is that we're both going to be utterly and completely true to ourselves in the earlier picks, get to the point of the draft where we realize we did not, in fact, both agree that there was an irrefutable, inarguable, top nine and then wind up with a top 15 that is missing a couple characters who simply must,

must be on any top 15 MCU movie villains list, thus forever robbing us of our credibility and ensuring that we have to podcast from secret locations under assume names in the future. Like full Obadiah stain. Tony Stark built this in a game. That's been Steve about our podcasts every day from here on after this. I cannot wait to build this draft from a box of scraps with you. We will soon see the wisdom of voluntarily bringing me here to put your credibility on the line. I know.

Top nine, a firm, rigid top nine. Declare an ironclad top nine. Oh, no, now I'm really worried. Is one of the boldest called shots in the history of screen traps. I can't wait to see how this goes. I feel like there's a firm top, like an irrefutable top three. Definitely. There are tears within the nine.

And again, the one of the nine could be fluid. But the nine characters. Oh, God. All right. And don't. Okay. All right. Well, if we're going to get to this ironclad nine, we got to start back at 15.

because that is the number that Joanna and Mallory are drafting today. This is a two-person. What we call on our show, a mini-mega draft of 15 titles. And the one thing I did not mention yet, as part of the rules, is that there is a wrinkle in this game, a blessing, as we called it. It is a veto. Now, each player, Joanna and Mallory,

are going to start with one veto. How the veto works is that if, let's say, Mallory plays a title at a spot that Joanna disagrees with. Either its inclusion on the list at all, or perhaps just its inclusion at that placement, maybe she thinks it ought to be a little bit higher. Joanna can veto it. It knocks that title off of that spot,

but not out of the game. It goes back up into the pick ether and can be played by anybody higher up the list. Now, I said drafter B, who gets fewer overall picks is going to get a little extra blessing. That is the extra blessing. They're going to get an additional veto. So drafter B is going to have two vetoes

to drafter A's one veto. So when we get to picking the draft order, the decision will be a little bit more difficult. Now, normally on screen drafts, we do a nice long trivia back and forth to determine who gets to pick the draft order. But we don't have that kind of time today because we have to talk about 15 movies.

So I have a quarter, and we're just going to do an old-fashioned coin toss. Is that right, Marlory? That's the plan. Plan Mal. You know what? Mal, yeah, I was going to say, Mal, you've never done a screen drafts before.

Would you like to call it? I want Joanna to make the same thing. You want Joanna to call it. Okay, Joanna. I would call Tails. You're calling Tails. Okay, let's see here. I haven't flipped a coin in like 15 years.

Okay, here we go. Ah, no, nope, it's on the ground. Let's see. Is it? Excellent radio. It is heads. Damn it. All right.

So Mallory. I don't want to make the choice. Can it, and like, you know what, can I, can I defer? Like in an NFL game? You know, could I defer the, can I say I don't, I want to go. Mallory, you're, you're, you're 15 seconds into your first screen drafts and you're already trying things no one's tried before. Wait till I ask you if I could potentially save both vetoes and turn them into a superpowered mulligan at the end of the draft. Wait till I throw that one, you're away.

That's a great idea. No, Mallory, you won the coin toss. Okay. The decision is yours, do you want to be drafter A and have more picks? No. And those first two picks at the very bottom of the list, you set the tone. Okay, you do not. You want to be drafter B.

Yeah, I want to be drafter B. I want Joe to go first and have the 15th and 14th picks, which means I will have the number one pick and I will have the double veto, right? All right. So Mallory's going to have two veto. Joanna's going to have one veto. Oh, boy. And Joanna is going to kick us off with the 15 and the 14 at the bottom.

And then once we get to the very tippy top of the list, Mallory will have the pick at number one. She's really made no bones about what her intentions are for that. So we'll see strategically how that plays out for her. Okay. Here we go. I have received Joanna's pick here at number 15. How this is working is Joanna and Mallory are going to be direct messaging me.

their picks and then I will announce them. Then we'll talk about them and see if there's going to be a veto coming down the point. My heart is racing right now. I'm so nervous. No idea about to happen. Okay. Here we go. I am so glad, as often on screen drafts, kind of the whole idea of it is that I don't know what I'm talking about. My co-host, Ryan, occasionally knows what he's talking about. So we bring on experts and enthusiasts to enlighten us on these things. I've seen every single one of these movies.

Listening to you to talk in the opening, I was like, maybe I have, maybe I didn't, maybe I haven't seen these? Is it possible I've spent 30 hours of my life? I've seen many of them multiple times. Have I spent a week of my life watching these movies only to not have watched them? So I'm glad that you two are doing this.

I'm a total neophyte. What I'm interested in looking out for. Is there anything else, by the way, that we need to say on that front in terms of what properties are actually eligible for inclusion? or do we think that's clearly established? Let me just reiterate it one more time. So it's MCU, yeah, let's just lay out the parameters,

which is like MCU, which to us is all the movies produced by Marvel Studios, including the co-productions that they did with Sony with the Spider-Man films, those are included. So those three Tom Holland Spider-Man films are also in the MCU. If it's an official part of the MCU, phases one through four to date on the film front. There is a slight wrinkle when it comes to television. We are not doing TV villains.

Howevskis. If there is a villain who hasn't appeared in a movie and also in a TV series on Disney Plus, we are allowed to use some of the context from Disney Plus to defend our choice to put them on the list here. Does that sound right, Mallory? That's exactly right. So if a villain has only been in a television show, not eligible.

If it's a movie villain who has some extra canon that we want to account for in the TV shows, we can mention it. So like Agatha Harkness, Catherine Hahn, is not going to be on this list because she's only been in a told. Yeah. It was not. Maybe we'll do a future TV villains exercise. It was not Agatha all along as far as we're concerned today.

So that's where we are. Yeah. All right. So don't be looking for Easter eggs. Don't be trying to figure out who's actually a whatever. It was a straightforward MCU villains. Joanna and Mellie just laid it out. What I'm curious to look for in this is, you know, there are different villainous organizations

represented in this world, how many individual villains from each organization, how many different villains from each sub-franchise? I am curious to see are represented here on the list. Different types of villains.

There's super villains, white-collar villagins, white-collar villains, bureaucratic villains, Rebecca Hall should have had a bigger part villains. There's lots of different types of villains here. So I'm curious to see, as Mallory was saying,

if how much you're just going to be dictated by your own personal taste or if you're going to try and get a nice little smorgas board going, there are different players approach this different ways. It's an interesting prompt too because I think like there's a version of this where we would have loved to rank 50 characters. Right. And part of like we love the television shows in the way that that's expanded the universe. And part of the logic for keeping this movie specific is to put some parameters in place. So once you do that, do you still have that full and vibrant mix that you're outlining Clay? I think the answer is.

Maybe. I just want you guys to know, you're going to be, you're so glad that Clay is here because Clay is saving you from Mallory and I drafting every single Marvel villain, which was something we considered. We're like, are we going to put all of these villains in order? And we decided that wouldn't be great radio. A lot of chatting about, it's a villain. What's an antagonist?

Who's just an impediment? Can we rank 90 characters in one podcast? A henchman, like, you know. And then in terms of your question of organizations, I will just say a blanket, Malin I decided, like, organizations themselves are not eligible. So we're not drafting, like, we're not drafting Hydra. So Hydra is not allowed,

but a person who works within Hyder would be allowed. So there you go. Fantastic. Well, look, I, for one, would have loved to have heard the every single villain draft. And look, it's possible. You just, over on screen drafts, we just got done doing every single

Steven Spielberg movie. It did take us three episodes and about 18 hours, but it can be done. Okay, but we're going to move much quicker than that today, as per the instructions I've been given. So let's get started,

kicking off the Ringerverse MCU Villains mini-Megadraft with Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin. Joanna's got the picket number 15. She has sent it to me, and we've got kick-up off the list, our first inclusion

from the Thor sub-franchise. At number 15, Joanna has selected Christian Bale as Gore the God Butcher. I just loved all the looks that happened on Mallor's face, where she was like really

scared that I had a different Thor millinone here. I started going Malakis being cursed. My fellow Mal right here at 15, what a twist. No mouse will be drafted today, I think. I didn't, I didn't rule out you doing something utterly brazen and rogue at 15 to force my veto. I considered that a real possibility.

Oh, well, I was I didn't mention. I didn't mention this, Mallory. We do frown upon what we call like bad faith veto grab plays. Yeah. You know, we allow the whole point of this. Is it bad faith if Joanna really actually in her heart loves the dark elves, though? And as the person on this podcast who has said many times that Thor the Dark World is an underrated classic, wait, John, I'm forgetting which of us has said that? The best installment of the franchise, I think, is a...

We allow for a broad range of personal opinions, but say you and Joanna had talked many, many times about how you both absolutely love Loki, and then Joanna was like, at 15, Loki, just to try and draw out a veto. That's something that would be frowned upon. That's dirty pool. But Joanna would never. Joanna would never.

No, but something clearly knows about me is that I do burn through vetoes very quickly every single time when it screen draft. That's true. Joanna does that hang on to Vito's. Yeah, I don't think I've ever played a Vito. higher than five or something like that. Jana, tell us about your pick at number 15, Gore the God Butcher.

Yeah, people might be surprised to find Gore the God Butcher on here because Thor Love and Thunder is not a beloved film. But something that I was surprised to find as I was amassing these villains together is, spoiler alert from my picks, this is not my last phase four villain. Phase four, something that we talk about a lot in Marvel in the first few phases is this idea,

for a while Marvel had this reputation of like Marvel has a villain problem, right? like, you know, we already invoked Maliki the Dark Elf. There were a few villains that were sort of like buried under prosthetics or their motivation was just like world dominant, you know, like sort of paper thin villains. And certainly not all. And there's plenty of phase one, you know, material here. But I think what phase four might have as a hero problem because there's a lot of great

villains in phase four. I had a really good time. And like oftentimes walking out of something like Thor, Thor, Love, and Thunder, I was, Gore the God Butcher was like kind of my favorite part of that film. So I was like, well, if you're the best part of your film, then like you probably belong on this list, even if you're down towards the bottom. And when we talk about villain fights, I mean, the Gore the God Butcher fight is one of the coolest fights that's ever happened in the MCA, I think. So, yeah, I want I wanted Gore and, you know, it's Oscar winner Christian Bale. What can you say?

Dripping black goo out of his mouth, this great stuff. Oh, boy. Yeah. Mal, any objections? Joe, all gods will die, but this pick will not because I actually had Gore higher on my list. Okay. All right. I love this.

Great. Yeah. Not like much higher. I don't want to scare you. But I definitely agree with that logic. Strong villain showing, the kind of villain who actually outperforms the movie and leaves us wanting more from the character than we got. And obviously, like, the berserkers, the prevarkerers. pursuit of eternity, the use of the all black, the actual performance, not enough to be a top

10 villain. And I think that there's a little bit still left in the bone with Gore in that movie on the thematic front compared to the comics arc, which we both love. Right. But a fun, utterly weird performance that we'll enjoy revisiting. I like the pick. Great. See how collegial and sense.

supportive. I'm being already. Everything's fine down at 15. This is where I thought things would be absolutely just utterly chaotic. After one pick, I am loving Mallory's positive energy. There you go. Gore the God Butcher here at number 15. You know, there's a thing meme or whatever people like to do on Twitter, which is like

so-and-so didn't have to go so hard on this project, but they did. And I'm always like, yeah, no, they did have to go that hard. They probably got paid $5 million. They, of course, had to go that hard as their job. In this case, I do think that Christian Bill did not have to go that hard for Thor Love and Thunder because no one else did. But he is, he goes all out in that movie. Okay. So I've got Joanna's pick here at number 14.

I am wondering if this will be controversial. It's a character I love and a performance I love. But I don't, I'm not really plugged into the wider conventional wisdom of NCU fans. So I don't, we'll see about this. Okay, here we go. At number 15, Joanna played Gore the God Butcher. Mallory was fine with that. At number 14, Joanna has selected our first inclusion from the Avengers sub-franchise.

At number 14, Joanna has selected James Spader as Ultron. Joanna, tell us about Ultron. I'm like, I'm so sorry this isn't a video podcast because I would just love for everyone to see Mallory's like fear and confusion turn into like smiling approval. The contentment when you know that you've chosen to live your life with someone you adore. That's what I'm feeling right now. This was my big question mark. I was like, this morning I like sat up and bed and was like, I don't know how Mallory feels about Ultron. Oh, no.

This was the one that I was actually nervous about too. I was like, is Joe going to disown me when I select Ultron, which I would have been, which I would have been doing. So carry on. Okay. Something that's really fun in villainy in general, but specifically in the MCU is this idea of a character that's a dark reflection of our hero. And specifically in this case, there's, again, spoiler, this is not the last villain on this list that is like the fallout of Tony Stark's ego and innovations.

I know you're making your argument here, but if I may interject simply to share my favorite Tony Stark. stark quote of all time, which is from a later film, Captain America's Civil War, Ultron, my fault. My B, essentially, right? Hi, fault.

Ultron, something that a really good villain does is forces your hero to confront something about themselves. We'll see that again and again on this list. That's something that Marvel has done pretty well. The reason Ultron is so low, Ultron is a fan, you know, I love James Bader. Ultron is a great comic book character.

This movie just really let this character down, I think. And so Ultron is a Avengers Age of Ultron is real low on my overall MCU rankings in general just because of the failure of potential that's available here. Ultron could have been one of the top tier all-time villains. It's, you know, like there are moments like when he comes like limping it talking about no strings on me, like all this stuff that's like really spooky. Again, Spader giving great performance. But the movie lets him down and I just wanted so much more from Ultron.

We got a bit more in like, what if that version of Ultron was a lot more exciting. So if we want to talk about some Disney Plus context, that's some context. But really all that shows me is how much I was let down by this movie. Mallory, I've chosen to live my life with you. I feel infused with hope and happiness. What are your Ultron opinions? I'm delighted right now. It's just going wonderfully.

I once again, not only did I have Ultron on my top 15, I had Ultron higher than this spot too. I won't say how much higher. But, and again, much like Gore, just a few, slots higher, not like far enough up the list

that I think it would be worth using a veto to force us to select Ultron like next. But I agree with everything you said. The Tony aspect, the way that the hero's pursuits, you know, we spawn the thing that we come to fear and loathe. The actual lines of dialogue from James Bader as Ultron in this movie, the way that he cuts with those vibranium blades right to the heart of our characters, our heroes, fears and insecurities Captain America

God's righteous man pretending you could live without a war fucking amazing I love the end conversation too with vision you're unbearably naive there are a lot of really great bits

with the character that left me wanting more I agree with you I think it's a great pick you're crushing it oh my god here's the problem like I'll try to crush Sukovia with the meteor that he built. Should I be birving with happiness right now?

Probably. However, the fact that Mallory said both of these were higher means that I have people on my list that she absolutely does not have on her list at all. And that... That makes me nervous. Worries me.

Yeah. All right. There you go. I was going to say all smiles across the board until Joanna planted that seat of doubt in everybody's minds. But there you go.

Joanna gets her first two picks on the list, Gore the God Butcher and Ultron at number 15 and 14. I guess I'm in the minority on Age of Ultron. I think it's kind of underrated. I think it's pretty solid movie. But that's just,

eh, there's another villain in that movie. It's certainly an immensely consequential movie that sets the stage. It goes in all directions to connect to various characters and plot points and is like elemental to the Infinity Saga

in a way that I think actually heightens some of the letdowns. Well, and Clay famously loves a farmhouse. So, you know, Clay was like, I wish the whole movie

were in a farmhouse, right? That's how you felt. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it. I mean, watching, I love a farmhouse too, you know, watching Steve Rogers to tear logs in half with his bare hands, wonderful. Quicksilver wearing, and I say this was a lot of love for the Adidas boost technology, but literally shoes I have at home to be a superpowered being in this movie? It sounds like you're just not using those shoes to their full potential.

It's true because I certainly not only don't use them to run, but never leave my home or wear anything but slippers and pajamas. So you might be onto something. It's a valid note. All right. At number 15 and 14, Joanna got her picks on. Mallory, we are over to you with your first pick on this list at number 13. And you're ready.

Okay. Here we go. All right, at number 13 with her first pick on this. MCU villains draft, Mallory has selected. Okay, another first. Our first villain from the Tom Holland Spider-Man sub-franchise. And an interesting one because we're sneaking in a little bit of old Sony action into this list as well.

At number 13, Mallory has selected Willem Defoe as the green. He's something of a scientist himself, folks. And I think he's right at home here at 13 on the ranking. If we were ranking all villains across all superhero movies, I have absolutely no doubt that he would be higher on both of our lists show. But given the parameters of the exercise, which is the Figey MCU verse specifically, I think that if we're being pure of heart and intention, we have to account for what Norman Osborne and the Green Goblin did in Spider-Man No Way Home, a movie that I love.

And acknowledged that a lot of the stock that we're putting into that comes from prior movies and prior canon made by a different studio and a different cinematic universe that we can't really in good faith incorporate into the argument here, which keeps them right here at 13. Strong enough to have it all? Two weak to take it. that's what he would say about his fellows. But that's not true for us, show, because we are going to grasp on to that relevant Sony canon where we can and build the most robust and layered list.

Great movie, fun to have all of the old Toby and Garfield, foes, and antagonists return into our lives and into our screens to face off with our three Spidees. This Green Goblin got up to some fucked up stuff. RIP to our beloved May, now and always, still not over it. I think this is the appropriate slot for this film and this cinematic universe. What do you think, Joe?

I'm thrilled to report that I had Green Goblin only like a little bit higher. And so this is similar to how you felt this is how I feel about this number 13 slot. We had a pre-draft discussion about how much context we were given specifically these No Way Home villains. and when you and I agreed that it was just within the context of that movie, that made my draft so much. I was like, because to have to contend with like everything around Doc O'Kock and everything around Green Goblin, I was just like, I can't grapple with all of that right now.

So purely contained to that movie, this is still a fall arc, you know, because we still get to meet Norman Osborne, you know, sort of pre-fall. We get to see scientists, nice guy Norman Osborne is also in this movie. But I, yeah, you know, Will Mifo, one of the most iconic comic book villains of all time. I'm glad that we got this taste of him and I'm glad that he's on this list, but this is right where he belongs. Yeah. And this movie unlocks a lot of the fun aspects of the character, not only the tech and the introspection and the deeply psychological nature of his villainy and his pursuits, but we're not only playing him off of Peter, May, happy, are heroes, but off of so.

many other villains who are these points of comparison when we think about the stories and the movies that have resonated for us over the year. So it's a really effective boiled down. It's like a reduction. Yeah. I don't cook a lot, right? But it's like if you're reducing a sauce into that flavory essence to give you the hardened burst of it without giving you that whole potful, that's what this version of Green Goblin is. But what we're missing and we'll get this in some other characters that are probably higher up the list is like that deeper personal connection to our main hero, right? Because, like, in his own movie, in the Tom McGuire film, you know, he's, like, knows that Peter and, like, is that, you know, that kid's best friend's dad

and, like, a titan of industry and all this sort of stuff. And he doesn't have that personal connection outside of, like, you know, a couple days to our Peter. So, absent that personal connection and personal connection is the theme that. The theme that is going to come up again and again as we go higher up the list. Definitely. All right. There you go. So far, no vetoes at all.

Green Goblin from Spider-Man No Way Home here at number 13. Yeah, the real joy of this movie was just realizing that all of these great actors coming back were not cameos. When they said all these people were going to be in the movie, I thought there was going to be something where Tom Holland got sent through some sort of a portal and caught glimpses of everybody as he shot through space or something. And then watch this, you're like, oh, Willem Defoe. All right, he's bringing it. And then, wait, another scene? Hold on. He's still in this movie.

He's having this fucking movie. It was fantastic. Okay. There you go, Green Goblin. We're back. Excuse me. I don't usually podcast this early in the morning. You guys are real pros.

Okay. Going back over to Joanna. Now I'm getting nervous. Honestly, not just for your next couple picks, but for mine. Because since I had Gore and Ultron higher on my list, even I will be picking characters higher than I won't. to for the next couple of picks, I think. This is scary.

All right. Over back to Joanna with the pick at number 12. We've got our first villain from the Guardians of the Galaxy franchise. And up to this point in the draft, both Joanna and Mallory have been grinning ear to ear, much like this actor as they're introduced in this film. At number 12, Joanna has selected ego as performed by... by Kurt Russell. Joe, we're really aligned here. Okay, maybe this will be a frictionless draft.

That's great. I thought this was going to be one of the ones you yelled at me for. Oh, no, no, no. Okay, so this is our first, but I would say probably not our last bad dad on the top 15. Yeah. Top 15 Marvel MCU villains. We talked about emotional connections to our hero. This is obviously like a big moment for Peter Quill to like have found his father.

play a game of catch and then the horrible monstrous reveal of what ego has been up to ego's involvement and his beloved mother's death,

like all of this sort of stuff. But something else we like to talk about when we talk about any kind of villain but also definitely specifically in Marvel villains is that sort of idea

of contagious charisma so to cast someone like Kurt Russell who is just like so charismatic and he comes through I mean you get the like opening deaged

montau of like seducer Kurt Russell and you're like, yes, the hair is feathered. We are doing, we're having a great time. And then you get, yeah, like genial dad, Kurt Russell, hero of space Kurt Russell. And the crushing turn that happens here is really effective. Kurt Russell's obviously like having so much fun. He's got that like raw force of personality that's going for him here. And I just, I love this performance.

I don't think it needs to be any higher than this, but in terms of bad dad-dadness, I wanted him here. All right. Yes, Drex, he's got a penis and it's not half bad. I love this. I had ego at 14 on my personal ranking, so pretty, pretty much right around here. Pretty, pretty good.

You know, as Yandu, as Yon do says to Peter in, in, in volume two. He may have been your father boy, but he wasn't your daddy. And I just love that part of this movie. As you know, Joe, because I've shared this video before, the year we did Benjibode Marvel,

number one on my Spotify wrapped that year was father and son because I listened to it 5,000 times after rewatching this movie. And that heart, as you said, the family ties how that pushes people apart or brings people together, villains and heroes alike across these stories,

one of my favorite things. And I think this is a great pick. I love it. We're so in sync. Look at that. We're powering our own expansion. We don't have celestial seedlings out there like ego did, but just as strong of a battery right here on House of R.

But like, this is the point in the movie when we're playing a game of catch. And then what's going to happen, Mal? You know what I mean? It's true. Am I about? to discover the just heaping pile of skeletal remains. I think you know.

Clustered in the remnants of your list. This is the hard spot. Oh, boy. All right. A quarter of the way in. So far, so copacetic, Joanna's pick of ego, played by the,

I always forget how versatile Kurt Russell is. And he, no one can be more charming and then on a turn in this movie, but in other movies as well, go to full fucking creep villain. He's so impressive, a skill he's handed down to his son who maybe hasn't gotten as good of a character

in the MCU, but yeah, he's fantastic. Mallory. Good old Wyatt Russell. Wow. I had such high hopes for him in the MCU because he's so great. It's not over yet for him.

Mallory, you just said, something the effect of, this is a hard one, this is where it gets tricky. You have the pick at number 11. All right. Here it comes. I feel, I will say, I feel, I feel good about this pick.

If Joe vetoes this, I think things could get dark quickly. We could, we could head into some unpredictable territory in a hurry. Here we go. All right. Here we go. No idea of this character is on Joe's top 15, but I hope so. There we go. I've got it.

I've got Mallory's pick at number, number. 11. And our first dip back into a previous sub franchise that we've already had on the list. At number 11 Mallory has selected

Jake Gyllenhaal as Mysterio in Spider-Man far from home. It's easy to fool people and they're already fooling themselves. And that's what we would be doing if we tried to argue that Mysterio did not belong on this list. This is a great, really fun, deranged performance that has a lot of the hallmarks that we look for and that will clearly be recurring through lines of our ranking as we build it today.

First of all, there's the actual aptitude of the central figure. This guy's a genius. He's got the illusion tech. He's got the master plan. He's really hot. That helps. It helps, folks. With the illusion.

It does. Let's just be honest about it. He is motivated by that direct tie. Once again, Tony Stark, we ask you to pause and consider what you've done. Had you not named Quentin Beck's Life's Work Barf, where might we all be? Edith, at least, I think, would not have wound up in Quentin's hands. And that gets us to, of course, dear sweet Peter Parker,

a hole that is a chasm in his heart, a Tony-shaped hole, wants someone to fill it, wants another mentor, wants another pal, and Mysterio manipulates that desire with a cruel, and a ferocity that I felt pretty compelling to watch and enjoy revisiting. And his actions spill into future films. The reveal of Peter's identity at the end is the launching pad for No Way Home, the movie that we all had so much fun talking about for so long. And I'm going to throw this out as another boon to Mysterio's case.

sure, it was a lie. It was a deception. It was a bunch of bullshit and a con. But he played up the multiverse as part of his illusion. Trailblazer. Did he actually give Kevin Feigy the idea for the multiverse saga? Who can say? I think Mysterio deserves a lot of credit for being ahead.

He told Peter, don't ever apologize for being the smartest person in the room. And he said that because he knew that he was. was Mysterio. That's my pick. What do you think, Joe? Will it shock you to know that I actually had Mysterio a little higher than this? Let us come together to enrage all the Taylor Slush fans who are currently listening to this podcast and rally around Mysterio. I think, you know, we already had the Green Goblin on here, but I think the Spider-Man Tom Holland villains,

who again are tied so directly to Tony Stark and his actions. I love this idea. This is something that, like, Dave Gonzalez's first flag for me, this idea that, like, Tony Stark's mistakes or fallouts from Tony Stark's actions are what Peter Parker has to clean up. But this idea that Peter Parker, who, like, hero worships Tony in the first film, and then is, as you say, mourning Tony in the second film, but still has to grapple with the mistakes that his hero idol has made

is a really rich text that I absolutely love. Jake Gyllenhaal is extremely hot in this film, and that does not hurt his case. But yeah, I love how thoughtful these Sony Spider-Man villains were, the Sony Marvel Copro Spider-Man villains were, especially coming off the back of the way the Spider-Man franchise was floundering,

and the massive villain problem that it had for a while. And so you can really feel, with love and respect to Amy Pascal and everyone at Sony, you can really feel Fige's hand here being like, okay, let's just really deep dive and root this villain in something much more interesting and definitely intertextual with the larger MCU. So, yeah, Mysterio, big fan. Glad he's here. All right, there you go.

Mallory thought that one might throw Joanna for a loop, but Joanna's right, right on. I was nervous about that pick. No veto. As my mother said, it's easy to fool people when you're really hot. Mysterio at number 11. I love about, I didn't love this movie,

but what I love about this villain, this character, is there's lots of psychopaths in the MCU villainry, rogues gallery, not as many sociopaths. And Jake Gyllenhaal is bringing almost like a, well, actually, you can see I've got him over my shoulder here. He's bringing sort of a Tom Ripley energy to this role that is really interesting. Wait, Malison, you've better line reading recall than I do. What does he call that one woman who's working with him, like, Hun or something like that?

Like, that's the moment where I was like, this guy absolutely sucks. Yeah, I have some notes on Mysterio's managerial style. Yeah, that's what he was like, could you do that for me, Hun? And I was like, oh, this piece of shit. I could be meeting the queen at any moment. needed the costume steamed Joe needed the costume steamed could have been meeting the queen at any moment all right there you go number 11 mysteryo we're kicking into the top 10 here so we're nearing mallory's ironclad nine i'll just say i had one character in the bottom five who has not been selected

if it's not that person here just and it's one of the characters from the top nine who is here, then someone's entering the top nine who I did not consider a top nine candidate. And that'll be a real, that'll be a real thing for us to work through in real time together. As a pair, as a duo. All right. Well, let's see as we, as we hurdle towards the cliff here, let's see who we have at number 10. At number 10, I've got Joanna's pick.

Another first for a sub-franchise. And this one, it's not just the first for the sub-franchise, it's the first for this particular sub-mariner. At number 10, Joanna has selected from Black Panther Wakonda Forever, Namor. Oh, the first disgruntled sigh from

Mallory here. Okay. Kulkan the feather, serpent, God himself. Namor is here for a couple reasons. Number one, this is, I think, depending on how you feel about God butchering, this is our

first villain that I really feel like we're sitting in the villain is right actually territory. Not in his actions, but in this idea of trying to defend his people and a people who have been oppressed and wronged. This idea of Namor as a dark mirror of our protagonist, Shuri, and also a villain who is redeemable is the argument that the film makes at the end. To Mallory's point about Jake Gyllenhaal, thick thighs save lives, and we absolutely loved Chino Schwerta in this role. And as we were weighing the pros and cons of Wakanda Forever and Phase 4 in general, we both really agreed that there was.

was nothing negative we could possibly say about Namor, about the way that he squared off against Ramonda, against Shory, the glorious visual effects of, you know, his kingdom. I just had a weird fight with a friend this last weekend where she was like, I just don't like underwater civilizations as like a blanket statement. I was like, that's, okay, have a conversation with James Cameron. That's not a problem you, it's not a problem you run into that office. oddly specific.

Let me talk to you about my beloved Tolcoons in the way of water. Yeah. But yeah, speaking of like contagious charisma, all the stuff that you want in a Marvel villain and a great potential future for our character that, as Mallory pointed out on our Wakanda Forever podcast, was long anticipated by comic book readers.

Mallet have already seen your displeasure with this, and I don't know if it's because you want name or higher, you want them off the list altogether. what do you think? Okay. I have Namor a lot higher. A lot.

So I'm considering I'm just going to work through my logic on Mike with you in real time. I'm considering using one of my vetoes. I have two. I could use one here

to force him higher up the list. But what if I want to do that like here with someone else? And I use it here that I don't have it And then we have a crisis at the top that I wish I could account for in some way, and I can't.

Do I care enough about the gap between 10 and where I have Namor to use the veto? Oh, boy. And the thing is, if I do use the veto, my worry is that you'll end up picking a character here who I also have much higher. And then where will I be? What will it have been for? What will it have been for? I don't know what to do.

You've outlined the difficulty you're facing and all the different potential possibilities. That's that, you know, Joanna, on screen drafts, you often deploy your vetoes early in the game and sometimes, you know, it works out great, and sometimes it is something you regret, but do you have any objective advice for, for now here facing her first true crisis

with a veto here. I'll say this to you, Mallory. Every time I've done it, I've been absolutely outraged. Are you, do you feel outraged that Namor is this far down? I don't feel outraged. But I also don't anticipate feeling outraged by any of the selections from here unless you really went totally rogue with a pick at some point. But I guess it's possible, but I would have a second veto to use in that case. You do.

I guess like one of the things I'm weighing. That's the thing, right? one of the things I'm weighing is like, let's say we get to, you're making your pick at four. And you select a character who I think should have been lower on the list. There's something I could do about it at that point. The lower picks have been made. It is what it is.

So all I can do is exist right here in this moment in time. Unlike Tony Stark, I can't actually seek to put a suit of armor around the world. I will say I'd him. I've got 10 characters. sitting on my list right now. Four nine remaining spots. Uh-huh. Is that good or bad?

So I have someone here that you don't even have a list. Yeah. That means I should maybe save my vetoes, but you just maybe said that to make me say that. Yeah. You're going to let Joanna get inside your head like this movie? Okay. Well, let me ask, let me return to

just for shits and giggles because I'm a maniac. the little colonel I threw out here. Well, Joe, I have a character at the person I had at 13 on my list originally hasn't been selected. So it's possible it's the same characters

are just in a slightly different order, but maybe not. I don't know. There's a, I don't know. If I somehow got through the draft with both of my, my vetoes intact, what would my reward be?

Because I think that if, If I want over on screen drafts, I would get to save it. I would get to bring it into the next draft. It rolls over. What's the equivalent boost here? Because otherwise, I have no incentive not to use them. So what's my incentive to potentially hold on to them? What is my incentive?

Are you going to need both of them at the top? Am I going to do someone in real time at a challenge is like, Jeff, we need rice. And they barter, they haggle right there. Let's do it. If I keep my potatoes, what do I get? Am I going to do something. So batch shit at the top that you're going to need both of your vetoes. I don't know.

Are you? Am I? All right. This is where on screen drafts, my esteemed co-commissioner, Ryan Marker would start doing this cute little thing he does where he counts down from five. So, Mallory, I'm going to start counting down from five. And at the end of it, you have to decide if you want a veto or not. Five, four, three, two, one.

I'm not going to veto. Not going to veto. All right. I'm a cow. That means if you're not vetoing that Namor is our picket number 10 and you how do you feel about this? This is the final placement for

Can I tell you where I had Namor or should I not reveal that? Should I not reveal that? I wouldn't reveal it if I were you. Is that tipping too much? I already said he was higher. So that's enough context. I'm glad Namor's in the top 10. I'll say that. I think that's more than appropriate.

You know, like Joe said, just an iconic introduction, an incredible performance. And I loved watching Namor in this movie. I legitimately can't wait for Namor to return into another story soon. I enjoyed spending time down in Telecon. I enjoyed learning about his child without love mutant origin story.

I loved those quiet conversations between Namor and Shuri. I loved the parallels between Telecon and Wakanda. I, you know, I guess I can channel Namor. He said only the most broken people can be great leaders. And that's how I feel now. Like I'm broken by this placement, but I didn't use my keto. So only the most broken people can be great drafters, I guess. We'll find out when I make my next pick.

In the words of Namor, bear your dead, mourn your losses. You are Queen now. I just have no idea what's happening from here. This is like, there's one character I have a real question mark on about where you, where you have this person. So now that I've taken one from your Ironclad top nine, you have a top eight that feel Ironclad. And I have 10 characters here. So who are the two characters I have that you're like, fuck them? You know what I mean?

I'm legitimately afraid to find out. Afraid, Joanna. But I think that you will really like my next pick. I do feel confident in that. I believe this is a character you really enjoy. I think it's possible you'll have this character higher on your list, but I know it's a character that we both like. I'm going to type it to Clay now.

All right, Mallory's sending it over. Had our first dust up there at number 10, but Mallory electing. I just had an absolute crisis. My God. Mallory electing not to use either of her two vetoes. My prediction is I will be taking both vetoes with me. If I didn't use it there,

I don't know that I'm going to. Well, that's a look. In terms of incentivizing, I'm happy anytime you all want to do a, you know, a screen draft style thing, I'm more than happy to return. If you want to roll over those vetoes, we can certainly discuss that within the continuity of the ringer verse. Yes, and let's also discuss and keep thinking about just right here among the three of us in real time over the next half hour or so, whether I should have a two veto supercharged Mulligan to change a pick after the draft. Let's just think about it.

Let's just think about it. Something, something to consider. Oh, well, there you go. So you got Namor at number 10. Really interesting villain. My mileage varies with very serious, very aggrieved villains. I'm kind of more in the bag for the cuckier villains. But Namor, really interesting stuff tackling there in Wakanda Forever.

Okay. I've got Mallory's pick at number nine. We are returning. to the world of Thor. And this is a villain who, in the movie, I don't, this is never, I had an involuntary, this never happened to be in a movie before.

In this movie, when this villain walks towards the screen and says, bow to me, I had an involuntary response where I nudged forward in my seat as though I was about to try and bow in the theater. That is the God's honest truth.

And there's no one else I would bow for than the one and only Kate Blanchett. At number nine, Mallory has selected from Thor Ragnarok, Hela. Fake. Most of this stuff is fake anyway, weak, smaller than I expected. That's actually not bad.

Now this, this is truly special. And that's how I felt about Hela in Thor Ragnarok. goddess of death. First of all, supremely, supremely powerful. Fenris Wolf, shout out Fenris Wolf now and always. You know I love an animal, Joe. The necros swords, the power.

She shattered Muleer, my beloved Mielnir, with her bare fucking hands. What more do we need to encapsulate the might of Hela? bonus points for the sheer comedy of dispensing with Fandrall in like literally two and a half seconds. That was an all-timer. Great stuff. Calling out Odin on his bullshit and his hypocrisy, I love it and I'm here for it. And because this all happened after his death, he wasn't there to just dip off for some Odin's sleep like the fucking coward that he usually was. and the prior stories, those family ties, Joe.

Here it is again. As Thor will later say to the Guardians, families can be tough. And we see how true that is right here in this film with Hella, but it's not just the might. It's not just the style and the flare. It's not just those connections

and that deep-rooted history, so deep than to be buried in hell itself, It's that hubris, another thing that we love in our villains. What ultimately thwarted Hella. Well, it was the coming together of our heroes, them finding common cause with each other, beautiful, so that Hella could be subsumed by Sertor and Ragnarok, look who among us, it happens.

It happens, but she got caught looking. She got caught trying to steal a base, thrown out, embarrassed with the game on the line, Thor said she's just the worst. We think she's the best, but not actually the best. And that's why she's at nine instead of one. But this feels like an appropriate spot for Hela. What do you think?

You ever higher? You're going to veto me? I had her just like one slot higher. So this is perfectly fine. It just means there's like two in my middle that I have some questions about whether or not I just need to throw them out the window. And like curse myself for not playing them lower because now my like Gore the God Butchers in here, but my like, two people in the middle aren't. Hela's a great choice, obviously.

Fantastic. Hella was supposed to be the villain in Thornt the Dark World, except, you know, some people were like, women won't sell toys, so we won't have a woman be a villain in this movie. And so we got Malikith the Dark Health instead, as we can all agree, a great move. Oh, well, but Joanna, in defense of Disney, I have about 45. of dark elf toys here just off screen. So those moved. Those moved like crazy.

Hotcakes, right? Yeah. Oh my God. And you certainly wouldn't have bought any hella toys to use however you want to use them in your own, the privacy of your own home, Clay. Okay. We are an equal, no. I mean, listen.

You talked about bowing to her in her theater. We are. I did. I want to clarify, before people come after me, she does not say bow to me. she says, quote, kneel before your queen. So I just wanted to, it's felt wrong as I was saying it. I'm deeply ashamed. I wanted to set the record straight.

Neal before your queen is what she said. We're an equal opportunity, you know, a lusting place here on the ringer verse. And so since, you know, we have talked about Mysterio. We have talked about Namor. So why would we not talk about how good hella looks in this movie? My goodness. The idea of a mirror villain, like a dark mirror, a dark mirror, right? of not just Thor, but also, of course, Loki in this film is really important.

And also this idea of like, and I think I mentioned before, but this idea of like your villain should really teach your hero something about themselves. That's a really, really dense and cool and chewy thing for a villain to do. So for Hella to lay bare the truths of Odin's kingdom to his sons, specifically to Thor, for Hella to take out. everything from Thor, which was sort of the mission statement of this movie, was to sort of just strip down that character and rebuild him from scratch so that Chris Hemsworth could have more fun, which we all enjoyed in that film. And, you know, I think, and as you say, like to crush the freaking hammer, like all this stuff that happened, it's such an interesting pick for this scene.

secret sibling to enter this already fraught sibling relationship that we've been following since almost day one in the MCU. And Kate Blanchett is just incredible. Just choose every bit of scenery. She can get her perfect teeth on. Love it. Hello. Fantastic. Things are going great still.

All right. Every time that Mallory has made what she thought might be a controversial pick, Joanna has said, no, that's okay by me. John had a one spot higher, not worth a veto there at number nine. So, Joanna, we are over to you. We're cruising past the midpoint here. Pals. Yeah. You need a break?

Can I take a bathroom break? Of course. This is where we'd usually take an intermission anyway. So let's take an intermission. And before we come back, I'll give a rundown of where we're at so far. Oh, it's great. This is the state of the list, the Ringerverse, MCU Villains, mini-Megadraft.

14, Gore the God Butcher. 14. Ultron. 13. Green Goblin. 12. Ego. 11. Mysterio. 10. Namor. And nine.

Hella. We'll be back with the top eight picks on the list in just a minute. And we're back. Okay, I just gave the rundown of the list thus far. We've got eight picks remaining. We're here in the middle of the list. And we are back over to Drafter A. that is Joanna Robinson.

The pick in the middle, this is exactly the middle of the list, right? So the pick here in the middle of the list, we have another first entry for a sub-franchise, and actually something that's not even really a sub-franchise yet, as there's only been one film for this particular hero. and y'all were talking about daddy issues let's just keep that discussion going at number eight

Joanna has selected I hope I pronounce this correctly Zhu Wenyu as played by Tony Leon in Shang Chi and the legend of the 10 rings was a 10thal my god I just my feet

that was like running down the hill and my feet just kept going and I was terrified Joanna, Tony Leung, Ju and you, what are you here at 8? Yeah, we love a bad dad. We love evil dads, evil uncles, etc. The movies that are being made now are being made by Star Wars fans,

so the shadow of Darth Vader looms over many, many things, be they made by JJ Abrams or Damon Lindeloff or Kevin Feige. The Star Wars Boys are out to play. And so our Vader figure here, I love Tony Long, like, just in general, just anything he does. I find him to be, like, one of the most charismatic actors of all time.

When he was named for this movie, I just lost my entire damn mind. I was so excited. I would have put him even higher were the final showdown not so disappointingly CGI Dragon Heavy. Like, this could have been one of the all-timers. Mal and I talk about the Obi-Wan show that came out last year, which is not necessarily a perfect show, but like a showdown between two people that can just be between those two people having a conversation. I don't know why Marvel decided they needed a big dragon for this moment when it could have just been a father and son conversation. But this is also such an interesting moment in the MCU where they are circling back on some decisions that they made earlier.

So, of course, this is a re-engagement with the idea of the Mandarin, which they executed in one way and in a creative way in Iron Man 3 to avoid some stereotypes. But then they sort of like revisited again maybe how that wasn't even the best way to tackle it. So love Tony and this, the swagger, the style with which he wears those rings with the rolled up like shirt sleeves. just I love this character. And Mallory is not looking angry or upset. So here he is, Mallory. I had when we will hire on my list. So I'm thrilled with the selection

and simultaneously, officially terrified. What's up here? It's coming on your list at the top that I am not anticipating. I have genuinely no idea who I've overlooked as a candidate on your list. We'll see. I love this pick for all the reasons you just said, Joe,

just a wonderful performance from a wonderful actor, those family ties right at the heart of it yet again. And I loved how central he was. You know, the flip side to the CGI heavy nature of the final act is how just central he is throughout the entire story and how prominent the examination of his hair. history. Sometimes that's through the lens of mythology with the Ten Rings, with this long life that he has lived. Sometimes that is through an examination of a love story and a family

origin and then these shattering grief that split that family apart and guided all of the decisions that then led our characters to this place with each other. Those themes of identity and longing and purpose and that abiding and guiding pain was just really compelling to watch. And I thought that dunking on Iron Man 3

was great. It was great. The, something that I wanted to say about, I mean, again, phase four villains, pretty fucking solid, right? But Wenwu is so interesting

as we talk about Kang because that idea of, like, extremely long life. So the weariness that comes with that. And then, you know, again, we don't, we haven't seen quantum mania. But historically with Kang, this idea of, like, a love story as a motivator for a lot of actions. Like, the fact that when Wu is drawn to this portal, not because of, like, a bloodthirsty quest for power that he has experienced, pursued that in his life, but because he hears the voice of his beloved. is, you know, again, adds like so much nuance to this character in a way that, you know, Marvel's just really in this phase war era

paying attention to giving us heroes that we can empath, villains that we can empathize with their motivations. Same with Namor, et cetera. So, yeah. All right. And you get such a shortcut to all of that, Joanna, when you cast Tony Leung. You know, there's, you've seen any of his work, you know,

outside of Marvel, particularly his stuff, with Wang Kar Wai. Nobody has sadness, regret, longing, kind of behind the eyes than Tony Leung does. Fantastic in this movie. But I'm with you as well, Joanna. Got to the end, I just wanted to have him and Shang-Chi hash it out. And every time they cut to the wide-open field

with a bunch of CGI things coming down and Aquafina going, whoa, I was like, all right. Yeah, so what I want. Yeah. I know I'm not supposed to reveal future picks, but I will be taking the Dwellerm Darkness number one overall. All right, Shoo-Wen-woo at number eight. We are moving on to pick number seven.

Number seven, this is where a normal screen drafts list would typically begin. We usually do a top seven with two people, and now we're getting into that realm. We are back over to Mallory with the pick at number seven. And Mallory, we are now cutting into your ironclad top nine here. Before I zoom chat, you might pick Clay. Mm-hmm. I want to take one moment and apologize to Joanna for what I'm about to do because I know, I know that she has this character higher.

I know it. I don't know that you know that. There we go. Yet again, Mallory predicting, uh, will I be right with a single prediction today? Who can say? Controversy. And Joanna, look, all vetoes, all three vetoes, one belonging to Joanna and two belonging to Mallory's still out there in play.

You heard Avengers assemble. Wait till you hear vetoes assemble from us at the end for our Mulligan. Oh, what if it's like three vetoes for a Mulligan? Exactly. Clay. Really, like, heightens that message of teamwork. Yeah. What you can do if you choose to do together.

I want to be magnanimous because I'm a guest here, but there's no, there's no mulligans and screen drafts. You got to live. You got to live with the list. There's no... Got to live with the list. No molligan. Got to live with the list.

Okay, here we go. From a villain, and number eight, a villain who's only appeared once in a sub-franchise that only has one entry, we're moving to a villain that, I mean, off the top of my head,

I think, has probably appeared as much throughout the MCU as any other. I'll be corrected when we get into it, but it says he's... I gave it away he. It's a male character. That's not giving away much. Looms, well, no.

I suppose not. Looms is large over the entire proceeding here as almost anybody else. At number seven, Mallory has selected our first villain to originate in the Captain America sub-franchise. None other than Bucky Barnes, aka the Winter Soldier. Joanna is thinking. Joe's pissed. I knew it. I knew it was a risk.

What if I told you? This is exactly where I had. Exactly. Exactly where I had. I love it. This is beautiful. What a vibrant partnership we have. Oh, my God.

And I'll be curious to know if your logic is the same. I knew that's who you were thinking of. You thought my love to have Bucky Barnes. Not your top three, but I thought maybe five. Maybe five or four. So I assume our logic. will be the same, which is Bucky Barnes as a character and to Clay's point, as a figure who populates the bulk of the MCU.

Bucky has been a part of our MCU journey for ages. Top-tier character as a villain, specifically as a villain. And now I will kind of issue caveats to my caveats here because I think that the villain who's on an arc and is a hero elsewhere is a point in favor of some other figures who might come up higher on the list. But the different, maybe, who could say? But I think the difference with Bucky is, it's a couple things. One, his stretch as a central villain is really concentrated comparatively. And also, it's not his choice. And that's the biggest thing. He's ultimately upon. He's a brainwashed weapon of Hydra, winter soldier ready to comply, souped up on serum,

a titanium and then later vibranium arm, masking up before it was in vogue. Good for the winter soldier. Obviously, we need not even say, because it is so well established, almost unbearably hot, just like a 10 out of 10 no notes from us. That's a point of agreement, I know. The biggest point in Bucky's favor is obviously that connection to the hero. The connection to

and history with Captain America. Joe Russo gave a quote in an interview back in 2014 in a Washington Post interview that I've always loved not only for unlocking something about this movie and this dynamic, but more broadly in terms of these through lines, what makes

for a really rich and impactful villain? and he said, the hero's only defined by the strength of a villain. And this is an incredible villain because he can emotionally undermine the hero. And that is thrilling, thrilling, thrilling to watch. But also, again, Bucky's not doing that because he's chosen to or is in control. And so that keeps him, I think, firmly slotted here instead of being higher up the list. But even at seven, we're with him until the end of the line. What do you think, Joe?

Yeah, he's my mission. And I'll tell you that much right now. Same. You know how much I love Bucky Barnes. You know how much I love the Winter Soldier. You know how much I love that film. You know how much I love that musical cue when he shows up and the score is like, oh, what?

You know, it's like, yeah, the Winter Soldier is here. Incredible design. Incredible use of a character from an earlier film. And then as he further ripples, obviously, in a tremendous way through the franchise. But yeah, it doesn't belong higher than this because he's not even, like the central villain of his own film, even though it's named for him. And so, you know, again, as we talk again,

about dark mirrors, like, it's really important to, like, think of him as a cautionary tale of what might have happened to Cap if, you know, he had been souped up and put into different hands, etc. So, yeah, we love Bucky, but we love him here. Perfect. At seven. All right.

The Winter Soldier. Here at number seven, really more, obviously. You have six from here, right, Mel? Okay, sorry, Clay. I have of my top six, because you've previously drafted Namor, so I only have five of my top six left. Oh, my God. Okay.

Now, I did have a character rated lower who has not been selected yet, and that could be who you take here. But if it's not, then I have no idea. What's about to happen? All right, the table's been set for the top six. Just checking in lots of diversity in terms of the sub-franchises here on the list. One thing that's sticking out to me, we do not have a phase one villain. I'm not including Bucky because he doesn't become a villain until Winter Soldier, obviously.

So we don't have a phase one villain yet. We'll see if we have any of those in the top six. And really not that much phase two either. A lot of more recent villains here in the bottom half. Joanna, you're up next with the pick at number six. I'm so sorry I cut you off, though. Is there anything you wanted to say about the hotness of Bucky Barnes before we continue, Clay Keller? That I wanted to say.

Yeah. I would say I agree. 10 out of 10, no notes. I'm not entirely sure what he's my mission means, but I don't want to compete with you. That sounds serious. I don't want to compete with you. Oh, that's from the film. Yeah.

I don't really like that movie. I'm in the minority. Winter Soldier are the best XU BATO made? I think it's overrated. I straight up don't like Civil War. I think Civil War sucks. Winter Soldier, I think, is overrated.

Clay, you're going to have a bad time for the rest of this draft. I know. But you know Joanna that my... Oh, no, Clay. My hot take is I still think First Avenger is the best MCU movie. So that's...

I like First Avenger a lot. Certainly. Yeah, it's a fun take. To that extent. I like that movie all. It's not coming anywhere to know. this list, but it's fun, it's fun to hear. Red Skull, nowhere near this list.

You don't have Red Skull, number one, Joe? No, no version. Got it. Ready? I'm ready. I think so. I just made a last minute flip-flop. Not an addition, but just like a switch on where.

Oh, boy. Based on what I think you came about. Like, I'm distracted. I'm just working hard right now, getting my justice for Hugo weaving hashtag going. Okay. Okay. I can't tell if this is good radio that we're just like sitting here

in the grips of fear, but yet our list has been like pretty copacetic and no venous in the point. You do, it really does seem like you're kind of getting yourselves worked up. But look, who knows though? That's the big thing is who knows though?

The stakes could not possibly be higher. Maybe it's like in Eternals and there's just a secret celestial baby nestling in the core of the planet we've built together waiting. to break through the upper crust. How dare you spoil my number one pick? Okay.

Here we go. I've got Joanna's pick at number six, and I am just confirming the first appearance of this character here. Okay. Very good. Okay. Here we go. At number six, hey, this is a first on this,

Well, there's a couple of firsts. We've got our first bureaucrat villain here on the list. And our first back-to-back entry for a particular film. At number seven, we had the Winter Soldier from the Winter Soldier. At number six, Joanna has selected from Captain America, the Winter Soldier, Robert Redford as Alexander Pierce. Okay, Zamale and I talked about before we drafted, we talked about, we're not doing Hydra, but we can do representatives of Hydra.

And so Alexander Pierce here is not just standing in for Hydra, but I think, again, what's really interesting in a villain is if they can unmoor, Mallory was talking about this in terms of Bucky Barnes, like really unmore or force massive introspection from our hero. And so the fact that Steve Rogers has to think about everything he's done, and worked for and risk for, as Alexander Pierce reveals to him that Shield is Hydra in this film, is what makes Clay, my apologies to you, Captain America with Winter Soldier, the best emcee film of them all.

I had Pierce a little higher, but I was worried that he was the character that Mal had way lower. So I just wanted to make sure that he got in here. and also there's not just the what he does to unmoor cap, but the personal connection he has with Nick Fury and then the casting of Robert Red, the meta-casting of Robert Redford in this sort of espionage, a spy thriller homage of a film, given that Redford was, you know, the king of those in the 70s.

And so, and then, you know, again, the caliber of performer. Not that the, you know, this was before the emceu could have their pick of literally anyone. But, you know, obviously there are phenomenal actors that come before Robert Redford. He's not the first iconic actor to play a Marvel villain. But it was just a level of step up in caliber in terms of like, wow, Robert Redford did a Marvel movie? Okay.

That I think we all felt around Winter Soldier. So that is why I want Alexander Pierce here, Mallory. Oh. Okay. So I thought I had a conundrum before. I thought I was facing a conundrum with Namor. And that was just about placement. I don't have Alexander Pierce on my top 15. So this was it. This was the twist. This was the real distinction. However, he is in the group of characters who I was completely at peace appearing in the top 15, even if he was not on my personal list. I think. for all the reasons that you just mentioned, Joe, all of those larger ripples and elements that he unlocks. Could you have done it with our guy Arnhemzola? Maybe. Just for the comedy.

I... Only if you do the impression. Jay's not here to do the impression, so I don't know. She were, yes. I could veto the pick because I don't have them on my list and because I think a lot of the hydra-centric deception and the challenging of what we think we know about the institutions and people who define our lives,

you could funnel into the Bucky pick as part of this larger connected universe of deception. But my worry is that if I veto will end up with a pick that I had even further Yeah, if you, like, so we're both staring down five people, right? There are five picks remaining. I mean, not included. This is the sixth pick.

So if this is the, if I'm confident that this is the calculus. If I'm confident those five are the same, then I leave Pierce here. Yeah. But what if they're not the same? And then we've run out of room. I, I would be so surprised. Therein lies the rub of the format. Mallory, you've found yourself at a crossroads yet again here.

I'm going to leave him. Not at your 15 at all. Not at my 15 at all. But I like the logic. I think that it helps us unlock through the shield of it all. A really key aspect of Infinity Saga, MCU Canon, the reckoning of staring down a truth that had defined your life and acknowledging that you need to look in a different direction.

So I'm content. I'm content. Let's keep Pierce. Also, Robert Redford. Great stuff. If you had to pick between Robert Redford and Kurt Russell for who gave the better, I'm in the MCU kind of quotes on the interview circuit around this movie, who would you pick? I mean, Kurt Russell's were just...

Her Russell's... Car Russell, Marvel interviews will forever go down in my heart and in history for that one Washington Post quote he gave about how they didn't use any CGI to de-h him. And it was just makeup and hair. And I was like, it wasn't, though. Anyway. I love it. Okay. I'm content.

Do I wish we could flip the order of Pierce and Namor say? I do. But you know what? Part of the lesson that Alexander Pierce taught Steve Rogers and thus us is that sometimes you have to make compromises to move forward. Indeed. There you go. Alexander Pierce here at number six.

If the top life's not the same, I will be shattered and despondent. I don't know what I'll recover. Yeah, I think the podcast is over. Yeah. I like to think of the pick of Alexander Pierce as sort of a pick for Senator Stern, as portrayed by Gary Shandling as well. Yes. Slot him in there underneath Alexander Pierce.

And before we move on to number five, I want to do some quick damage control. Ant, wink. I want to clarify, I think Civil War is an awful, awful movie, the nadir of the MCU. I think Winter Soldier is very good, a little over. very good. I don't want any misconceptions out there. I think you thought you just dug yourself out of a hole, but I think you just dug yourself deeper to the hole. I will take all comers who ought to argue about Civil War.

A 45-minute fight in an empty airfield that doesn't matter. Not compelling cinema. So was I. Cry right now. Not compelling cinema. Okay. All right. Here we go.

I'm ready. I'm ready. Still out there. Will we see any of these vetoes come into play? Who is to say, Mallory, you're up next. I mean, now we can be on you a little bit with the order. Yeah, yeah. Mallory, you're next with the pick at number five.

Interesting. Okay, so at number five, Mallory has selected. We are now, this is the third. I think I'm learning some stuff about Mallory here today. This is the third visit to a particular sub-franchise. And interestingly, right before we got on recording, there was on Twitter, a terrific actor was saying in an interview how they were originally cast in this role.

And then Marvel asked them to step aside when another actor decided they wanted to do it. At number five, Mallory has selected from Spider-Man Homecoming Michael Keaton as Vulture. John Legerzamo saying he was originally cast in that

and then Keaton wanted to do it. I mean, the Keaton casting is part of what makes it so brilliant and meta. It's just great. Mallory, you're a Spider-Man person that's being revealed to me. I love the MCU Spider-Man franchise. The Captain America franchise is my favorite, so I don't know that the

selection of villains necessarily reflects the overall ranking of the franchises in my heart, but I do enjoy the Spidey films. The guy next door, your girlfriend's dad, is also your arch nemesis. Being a superhero is hard, and so is being a teenager. The car ride to the school dance, of all the reasons I didn't want my daughter to date. The way that he says, Pete, once again, we have Avengers, more broadly, and Stark in particular, resentment, fueling of villains' motives, damage control coming in, taken Tooms' team off the cleanup case.

This detached heroes up in their towers versus the people down here living in the real world aspect of his worldview. the way that he turns the alien tech into this weaponry, the innovation, the entrepreneurial spirit. And crucially, that shred of goodness, there's, of course, the way that he rationalizes his villainy by saying he's doing all of it for his family, even when he has clearly lost sight of what that means or what the cost of his decisions might be.

But he doesn't rat out Peter. He doesn't rat out Peter, Scorpion, at the very end gives us that little glimmer of hope in our friendly neighborhood villain, vulture. Joe, I'm worried that you don't have him on your list and that this is where we part ways. I had him, like, much further down. This is what Steve Warnie would happen during the break

when I made the decision between, it was between Wenwu and Tooms, and he's like, Mallory loves Tooms. And I was like, but we have two Spider-Man villains already on here. He's like, Mal loves Toom. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Great villain.

But I just don't, I mean, now I think I know which of my top five you don't have on here at all, and that breaks my heart. And so I'm trying to figure out if there's a way that I can fix this. But I don't know that there is because you have two vetoes and I have one. You could veto the pick, and then I would have to pick one of my top four characters here. But then you would have to next select probably the character you were sure I didn't have it all. because otherwise I would maybe actually run out of characters to pick. Or I would pick Vulture again, like at number one or something. Which would not be what you wanted.

That's how we get Red Skull on the list. Red Skull at number one, because you all run out of picks. I'm Vitoing too. Okay. A veto. Her one and only veto from Joanna Robinson here of Vulture. Are you so proud of Biclay that I saved it for this high? Adrian Toos.

I, yes, I am proud of you. This is growth. here. But now, we'll see if Vulture reappears higher or if you have successfully forced Vulture

off of the list here. Yeah, no. I mean, I did the only thing I could do. Okay, so I make another pick now. You make another pick. You send to me another pick here at number five.

It could turn out that this veto from Joanna was just a vote of protest. This is 100% of character Joe has in her top five without question. Definitely not on your top. five click based on some of your comments.

Well, look, it's not my list. I'm just here to commission. Okay. I actually like this character. Okay. I don't have a problem with this character. I like this actor a lot. Okay, I see what has happened here. Okay. So Joanna is out of veto's. Vitoed Vulture at number five. Mallory has provided a replacement pick at number five. Yes, as it's probably clear to every. everybody, Mallory has selected somebody from Captain America, Civil War.

But like I said, I'm a big Daniel Brule fan. And I like old, old Baron Zemo. Zemo at number five is Mallory's. Much of this draft is encrypted, not easy to decipher. But I have experience and patience. And a drafter can do anything if she has those. What a wonderful performance in a really, really good movie. Clay.

Look at you. Clay. Fair. Helmut Zemo broke up the Avengers. Like, what more is there to say? And he did it with not just horrors, the Bucky framing, the bombing, horrifically responsible for killing Tchaca. He did it

by prying on the exact thing we have cited as a source of so much joy for us. The connection between people. Shared history. He had that tape of Bucky killing Tony's parents ready to fucking roll and he did it while spitting bars.

Poetry. An empire toppled by its enemies can rise again, but one which crumbles from within, that's dead forever. Is that the fate that awaits us after we realize which picks we did not have in common? Maybe. Who can say it was certainly effective

against Captain America and Tony Stark? And also, the Sukovia Accord plot, this question of control and accountability and whose hands are the safer ones and who gets to decide. The Zemo aspect of this movie gives the Sokovia fallout a beating heart because of what happened to his family and how the loss of his family shaped his decisions from there, much more so and more effectively than anything that that fucker Thunderbolt Ross

does in this movie. We can learn from Zemo, just as our heroes did. Think of the moment out in the cold when Tachala says to him, vengeance has consumed you. It's consuming them. I'm done letting it consume me. And all of that is before we got to see him dance in the Falcon and the Winter Soldier. Mission Report, drafted.

Joanna, you vetoed, Vulture? I know you had Zemo high on your list. The replacement is Zemo. How do you feel about the outcome of your veto? No. Has anyone ever told you? there's a bit of green and the blue of your eye. Of course I had Zemo up here.

But Zemo was the one that I was like, I had a crisis of faith and I was worried that you. Who is the? I know who it is. I mean, you didn't have Volture. I didn't have Pierce. I mean, I know who it is. Okay.

Because I know who the top three have to be. So, yeah, Zima, what I have in my brackets right next to Zima on my list is he wins in all caps, which like, there's only really, I think, one other villain who can claim that. And so, and exactly what Mallory says, like the way in which he, and again, to Clay's point about Daniel, the power of Daniel Bruill, like, Zemo has very little screen time in this movie, actually. And the just quiet, calm, chilling, almost genial, you know, demeanor that he adopts through the whole thing. orders his coffee and his bacon. Oh, my God.

You know, the reading of the, the reading of the, the genial reading of the, of the trigger words. You know what I mean? Like, all of this. And the payoff of the movie long voicemail, you know, part that we get. And as, you know, as Mallory said, there is just like, it fixes a lot of what's wrong with Ultron. I don't know about fixes, but at least gives, like, meaning to what's wrong. with Ultron, which Ultron came out right around the time as Batman v. Superman. So we were having these conversations about like these superheroes smashing entire cities

and like no one ever paying attention to the consequences. And D.C. decided to handle that one way. And this is how Marvel decided to handle it. And also we should say I was really worried about Zemo because when he, when Civil War came out, you know, it's after Ultron. It's after Ronan in Guardians of the Galaxy. It's after Malakith the Dark Elf. This was like kind of in the thick of,

does the MCU have a villain problem? And Zemo in the comics has like freaking a purple mask on the whole time. So I was like, are we going to get another, are we going to bury Daniel Brule under like another dumb mask? Is that what we're going to get? And they were like, no, we're just going to let him brule it up. So, yeah, Zemo. Great.

glad he's here. So the question is, Clay, do I ignore the spirit of the game and, like, just give the gift to Mallory of, like, drafting Vulture here? Yes, because we know who the top three has to be. We can't jeopardize it. We know who the top three has to be. We can't jeopardize it. Here's what I'm going to do, Mallory. I'm going to just, I'm going to draft my number five. And then I'll veto it and you pick Vulture in, okay?

Collaborative. Clay is appalled. I just want to talk about it. Joanna, my answer to. should I ignore the spirit of the draft is always going to be no. No. Look, we don't mind a little bit of as long as we're not. Every villain's on an arc, Clay.

By the time we get to the end, there's some horse trading that happens here and there. So I'm not too concerned about this. I don't like to encourage collusion, but we'll see what happens here. So yeah, there's four picks remaining, two per GM, two vetoes out there still, both belonging to Mallory. Joanna, when you're ready with your picket number four, shoot it on over. Oh, yeah, that's right. Send it to you.

I'm going to, yeah, if you decide that this person does not belong anywhere on the top here, I'm not going to do something completely mental. That's my promise to you, Mallory. And be like, fine, I'll put Maliki the Dark Health. God, I forgot that this was this character's last name. Like, what a name. It's a great character name. All right.

Here we go. So at number five, the end result of the veto and all that was Zemo, being there at number five. Here we go at number four with her second to last pick on the list. I said earlier we had not yet had a phase one villain, and Joanna decided to not only pick a phase one villain, but to go all the way back to the beginning. At number four, Joanna has selected from Ironman. Jeff Bridges as Obadiah Stain.

All right, let's talk about Stain for a second before Mallory who vetoes him off the list and into the ether. I love Obadiah Stain. I mean, I know you do. But like, the entire MCU doesn't happen if Iron Man doesn't work, right? And like when we talk about casting and I can't believe they got, et cetera, like, you know, we all have. to remember where Robert Downey Jr. was in his career at this point. Like, he wasn't, he was on the skids. And so casting him was not like a, oh my God, I can't believe they got Robert DiJ Jr. They're like, okay, RDJ, let's see what you got. But Jeff Bridges, it was sort of like,

wow, they got Bridges. Okay, that's interesting. We'll see, we'll see what happens here. And something that I love about Stain is this is sort of, it's a dark father storyline, right? This is a father figure for Tony. And what I love, we're talking about like final fights and stuff like that. For Iron Man, there was originally who can punch the hardest fight. And they reshot the ending, basically using digital effects. So that the ending is Tony Stark remembers the icing over issue with the suit and, you know, flies up to cause the suit malfunctions. And that is Tony leaning into our egotistical cocky Tony leaning into a flaw that is something that I love about the way in which that final confrontation plays out.

Again, if Stain doesn't work, the whole MCU doesn't work because what came after this was Hulk. And if it had been like, Iron Man fails, Hulk fails. The whole MCU doesn't happen. So I always like to honor Iron Man in its place in history. I didn't have Obadi staying at four, but I did have him like up. He was in my like top. So, yeah.

I considered him putting him around like 15 on my list. I really do genuinely agree with and respect the logic. When during the binge Marvel run, we had like a debate about a winner for each movie. And my pick for the first Ironman was not Tony. It was Yinson for like much the same reason. If Yinson doesn't have that impact on Tony, then Tony doesn't become Ironman

and we don't have the MCU. And I got fucking dusted in that pole. Dusted! Unnihilated! I really do like... I really like the Stain performance. It's so fun. I love to quote his lines from that movie.

But I just can't... I can't sleep tonight if I let him stay here instead of Vulture. I wish... I wish that I hit it today. dissipated this. If I had vetoed Pierce, would you have gone to Ironmonger there? I don't know.

Let's not dwell in the past. Where did that get anyone inside of the EFC? I have to veto it. I'm sorry. I have to. All right. With love and respect for Obadiastain. A veto from Mallory, one of her two.

So she does still have one. I do have one. At her disposal. Maybe I'll use it really recklessly. We'll see. Just remind. Eating Obadiastain. Now, Joanna, you saw this coming.

You anticipated Obadiastain being vetoed. And you said to Mallory, if you veto this, I will play Vulture. Now, you don't have to. You were not bound to this in any way. I do not have your pick delivered yet. But you are tasked now with providing me a replacement at the number. If you want to pick the character who should definitely be at three at four and live with that forever. No, you can.

I would, the only reason I vetoed Volcher in the first place, because I was, I panicked at the last minute, was like, what if Zemo isn't in her top five? It was very important to me that Zemo be up here. And I was like, I was willing to let Obedaia go for Vulture. Like, that was the calculus I made. So, um, Volture's, Volcher was on my list, but in the middle. but a very human, I mean, I'll send this. Oh, I was going to say, Joanna, this is, you're talking, but this hasn't, this hasn't to pick yet. Sorry, I forgot the process. You know, I like to, you know, we have a system here that we need to have things validated.

Okay, so at number four, so silly, at number four, Joanna played Obadiah Stain, the very first MCU villain, stricken from the list by a veto from Mallory, replacing it. I received Joanna's pick, and number four, she has selected, Vulture. I really don't have a lot to say that we haven't, like, you know, Mallory articulated beautifully. The drive-to dance is one of the scariest things that's ever happened in a Marvel movie, I think. Just again, that's the tension, the smiling menace. And then, again, just yes-anding a lot of what we said about Mysterio in terms of Tooms represents the fallout of Tony Stark's actions. and the way in which Peter has to deal with that.

Yeah, and then the meta-casting of Michael Keaton. So, yeah, Vulture is way too high on this list, but it's fine. I mean, even I think Vulture's a little high on this list. I'm way too high. I actually had Vulture at six on my personal ranking. But due to Nemeanor having already been picked, I put him at five. Yeah. And now he's a four, but, you know, he's got wings.

He soars. good for him I mean if someone just looks at this list they're going to be like why is Alexander Pierce at number six and vulture number four but listen we have our reasons we've got our reasons this is the real question because I have

I think like you complete faith we have the same top three what if they're not in the same order though I think they will be I'm feeling really good now but you have that one video Mallory both sides of the virtual draft table down here with if I pick someone of three who you think should be higher.

I am a little concerned here. I'm worried. Here's what I'll say. I think we both really firmly agree on number one, and I'm actually like slightly agnostic about where two and three go. Interesting. Okay. Here we go. All right.

Both sides of the draft table predicting a totally copacetic top three to cap off a largely copacetic entire list here. Maybe some question about the order, but... I don't know. We're about to find out. We will find out. Okay, here we go. At number three, so this is Mallory's second to last pick here on the list. And as she has done...

Oh, no, no, no. She did not do this one previously. Okay, so... Mallory, for the first time... picking a villain from this particular sub-franchise that has appeared previously on the list, and perhaps the shining example, the pinnacle of the MCU trope, I use that word as a positive, one of the very interesting MCU tropes that Joanna was talking about, the villain who is maybe right, actually, and I have to assume Joanna and Mallory,

also the pinnacle of the positive MCU trope that you both enjoy, the villain being very, very hot. At number three, Mallory has selected from Black Panther, Michael B. Jordan, as Killmonger. What if Clay's Billip had been to Thanos? Thanos, I'm just going to say, love that wrinkly scrotum chin on Thanos. Eric Stevens, Kilmonger. Is this your pick?

This is my pick. This is my pick at 3. The villain who has a point as Clay just teased. It's just the single, the best single movie performance, or in the running for best single movie performance for an antagonist in the entire MCU. Well, to be counted as the single movie now that he's appeared in Duke? I'm glad you asked because that's part of what has been so exciting in this past

stretch in phase four. We thought it was going to. be a single movie and we've gotten to spend more time with Killmonger in what if lots of killmonger action and what if and then of course one of the thrilling scenes in Wakanda forever Eric and shirry I wish she'd been in the whole movie he should have been torturing her in her mind for the from the beginning the great the number of different ways is certainly now that we are in the multiversal phase of the MCU, that Michael B. Jordan can still be in the

MCU. That Kilmonger can still be in the MCU, one of the genuine and true delights of where we currently are in our shared Marvel journey. Eric's story in Black Panther is such a deeply personal one, the scenes with Njobu, his father,

back in Oakland in the ancestral plane, just so heart-wrenching. The way that he challenges to Chala, everything that he is striving for and the larger case that he makes about using Wakanda's resources to lift up black people across the world and the skill and smarts and style and style and conviction that he brings to the film wonderful just one of the one of the real true thrills of the first three phases of the MCU is this where you had killed?

Munger, Joe. Of course, it's precisely where I had Kilmonger. Absolutely. Number three. All right. There's no. Clay's like, don't make playing game boring. And guys, anyway, yeah, Kilmonger, number three. 10 out 10, no notes on Kilmonger's performance or Mallory's placement, the Fit Lord himself, an Oakland son, Eric. Yeah, I don't know. I have nothing to add to Everything that Mallory said. Well, I guess I will say this.

In addition to a villain who has right ideas, wrong methods, there's this idea of the villain who thinks he's the hero. That is, you know, also something that... The most compelling villains always do. We might talk about in a second. But, yeah, Killmonger. What an incredible. And, you know, Mallory is constantly like...

Character deaths don't mean anything to me in the other. MCU bring them all back and I'm like keep Tony Stark dead. But we are in complete agreement about Kilmonger. Like, I love that when Kilmonger died. That's not what I think. I just think that stakes can come in other forms

as well other than just life and death. I do think that it's important to not just resurrect every single character constantly and but Tony Stark for sure. But but everyone at the end of Black Panther was like

That was a phenomenal, amazing movie. Why did they have to kill Eric off? We would like more of him. And so, yeah, glory be to the multiverse for potentially giving us more. Eric. Okay. I am sending you my number two. Moment of truth.

Without question, we have the same top two. Are they in the same order? Of course they are. All right. We're down to the top two. This is Joanna's final pick. on the list. And yeah,

we'll see if all of these bold predictions of total copaceticness, copacosity here in the top two hold true. At number two with her final pick on the list, Joanna has selected the granddaddy of them all, big old, I believe Mallory said Purple Scrotum chin himself. You got to have him on here. It's Thanos.

Thanos at number two, as portrayed by... Now I'm blanking on his name. What's his name? Josh. Josh Brolin. I was getting Joshua. I was like, that's not right. He's not a Joshua.

Josh Brolin here as Thanos. So a lot of people would have this at number one, but that's not how the Ring of Verse rolls, and Mallory will eloquently explain why we have number one at number one. I'm so happy right now. But we're in a completely agreement about the top three in their order. In fact, I think, you know, would have had the same number four if I had kept the faith.

But, um, Thanos, I mean, what can you say about Thanos? Again, like, like Zemo, I mean, he wins. Doesn't win in the end end game, but he wins in a very significant way. Um, and I think there's a couple things. The world weariness, the real kind of sad reluctance, but also complete determination that what he's doing is right. is so interesting.

Thanos was something that a lot of us were really kind of, I don't know, if dread is the word, but worried about because the way his design worked, especially when he first shows up, and then even in Guardians, they hadn't perfected the design. They had not even yet invented the technology they eventually used to track Brolin's face on this performance. And so basically they invented brand new technology in order to capture very nuanced, small quiet performance from Josh Brolin. One of my favorite interviews I ever did was 4VF with the visual effects head on this film. And he was talking about how Brolin's original plan was to play Thanos as this big, huge, mustache-twirling, like, bombastic villain.

But they had him do some tests with the motion capture technology. And they captured him just sort of like muttering and sort of like practicing his line. in between some of his takes. And they showed him that. And they're like, you can do it that small. And we still capture you. Versus, like, previous mocap performances, like Andy Circus, God love him,

but, like, has to go big with everything in order for the performance to come through the digital effect. The digital effect on Thanos allows for Brolin to do a really subtle thing with a huge, massively overpowered character. And it's not a ring reverse anything without. out a good old-fashioned smuggle. So I've just decided to tuck my favorite henchmen of all time, Emory Ma, right in here under the protected wing of Thanos.

Love Ebony Ma. Destroyed by a pop culture reference. Shameful. Love Ebony Ma. He is the 2B of my pick here of Thanos. I want to say something, which is that I am full of such love for you right now, knowing that we have the same number one,

then it actually had having like a genuine and sincere emotional response. I really thought I might have to make the case for Thanos and two. I shouldn't have ever doubted. This is just, this is a great feeling. You know, the pick, Thanos, being in the top two, that was inevitable. But which order? Who could say, Joe? They say that the hardest choices require the strongest wills.

That's what was needed for us to put him at two exactly where he belongs. Because the number one. We just get right to it, Mallory. You got to send it to. I am. But Clay, do you know who it is before she sends it? I'm a pretty savvy listener. I think I had a general idea of what's...

I had it written down before she sent it, yes. I'm wasting no time here. Okay, yeah, there we go. Yeah, Judd, I didn't know that anecdote about the motion capture technology with Brolin, and that's fascinating. Because as a casual, as a non-comic book, book reader, kind of casual film MCU observer, when

they first introduced Thanos, I was very confused. I was like, this is who they're putting all their chips down on is the purple guy? And by the end, yeah, terrific performance there in those final films. Anyone gone to Infinity Cones lately? Are you drinking

your morning coffee and your Thanos was right, mug? Coens with a Z. Lasting impact. I really, I really should. Although, Joanna, you know this, when my screen draft co-host and I and Ryan Marker went to Disneyland, him for the first time, I brought him into that warehouse.

I don't know if you may have you've been to Disneyland recently, but they have essentially an empty gigantic warehouse that's just full of Marvel merchandise. I've never seen someone's eyes light up brighter. He disappeared and returned 15 minutes later with a Thanos gauntlet, Infinity Gauntlet mug. He had a, like a Schwarmma T-shirt. He was just, oh my God, he was,

Like a pig and shit. Okay. The impact of Thanos, not just the merch, but the measuring stick that we have all spent the last couple years, measuring every subsequent MCU installed it against. They pulled it off. That's the true impact. Yeah, it's wild.

Love Thanos. All right. Well, there you go. Look, I've got the pick for Mallory at number one. It seems like this has been a totally copacetic draft. That is the magic of screen drafts is it can either be a conduit to despair and controversy and anger and friendships, relationships, partnerships, being torn asunder.

Or, you know, it can be the fire that forges an even stronger bond. And it seems like maybe the latter was the case today. This is the list. I've got the whole dang thing now. This is the Ringervorverse MCU Villains mini-Megadraft with Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin. Number 15, Gore the God Butcher. Number 14, Ultron.

Number 13, green, God. No, 12, ego, number 11, Mysterio, number 10, Namor, number nine, Hella, number eight, Wenwu, number seven, the Winter Soldier, number six, Alexander Pierce, number five, Zemo, number four, Vulture, number three, Killmonger, number two, Thanos, the number one, MCU feature film villain, Loki. I am Mallory of Ringerverse, and I am burdened with glorious purpose as I make this pick. Who else could it be the true and genuine and actual through line of our shared MCU experience?

I mean, we could talk about the fact that he is literally the reason the adventures assembled in the first place, but I think we'd rather talk about how he embodies every single core tenant and theme and throughline pattern that we have discussed today. You're wondering, listening, why we are saying that a character who is now a hero is our number one villain, well, isn't that interesting? In addition to being the most magnetic and charismatic villain, back in Thor, back in the Avengers, in addition to continuing to dupe his brother time and again in the dark world. And he began to embrace the possibility of partnership, unity, teamwork. No one is more delighted than Loki to see Loki do the heroic thing in Ragnarok. His death, great example of how we said goodbye in Infinity War, and he's back in our lives,

and we friends are the richer for it. We're obviously mostly talking about. mostly talking about the movies, but as Jodos, as many of the folks listening today know, Loki, one of the television programs and just MCU and Stallments, period, and the ringer-verse crew enjoyed the most.

The way that he looked inward, that introspection, the honesty that has surfaced about who Loki is, about how he sees himself, about what he wanted. And from the other people in his life, the love and regret around Frigga, the resentment and desire and desperation really for praise with Odin, the nature of that bond.

Complex though it is with Thor, how do our heroes affect our villains? How do our villains affect our heroes? There's that idea again. When Thor says, Loki, I thought the world of you in that elevator in Ragnarok, we are shattered because we have. spent that much time understanding every single thing that has passed between them and that we have gotten to bear witness to that has led us to that moment. He's funny. He's sexy. He's weird.

He's cool. He's a trickster. He's got that acid-dipped tongue generating some of the most savage vicarations in the history of the MCU. He is a deeply flawed, deeply flawed character, but one who has in time come to embrace the idea of self-betterment, he would tell you that he wants to be the god king, but what he really wants to be is the god king of his own family's heart just to be loved and appreciated and told that he did something right and well. Not that he's there to bring out other people's feats, but that he is capable of something true and good on his own.

He has told us that satisfaction isn't in his nature, but thanks to this selection, it can be in ours. Round of applause, delighted to find Loki at the top of this list. I'm thrilled. I think a couple things you hit on are so key. Number one, this idea that like Loki, even though he comes with sort of this idea of world domination and Avengers, we know from his introduction in Thor that it's like the approval of,

of his father that he's really after here. And so that, at the heart of it, the way in which the casting of Tom Hiddleston, a Shakespearean actor in Marvel's most Shakespearean installment, which is the first Thor film, and then, but to carry those, you know, big, grandiose, tragic themes throughout the entire MCU and into the Disney Plus era is, provides,

a spine for the whole thing that goes beyond Thanos. Again, we've talked about this with Hella, but that dark mirror idea of like, what does Loki show Thor about himself? What does Loki show Thor about his family and things that he understood? A dynamic I really love, which is an really introspective villain and a not introspective hero, and that introspective villain forcing introspection on like party god Thor. is a really great dynamic. And then the fact that when Loki happened,

I was curious, who is Loki outside of the Thor relationship, right? That this has been such a foundational part of this character. I didn't doubt Tom Hiddleston's charisma. I didn't doubt that I'd be interested in watching Loki do whatever. But, like, that is so core. How do we tell a story without Hemsworth at all? You, Frog Thor is there, but Thor isn't there. and there was just so much rich text to mine.

New relationships immediately forged that felt as complicated and as dense. Loki. I'm overjoyed. I mean, the only mark against Loki is some of the wigs that he had to wear in like the first two movies. It is a tough one for a wig watch with Joanna Robinson. Yeah. But again, we grow. involved.

By the dark world. They had figured it out. Yeah, yeah. And we have figured out the list, the single definitive best-up list, at least until Quantum Mania hits theaters here of the MCU Vellon's round of applause. Joanna, Mallory.

Well done. And to you, Clay. Thank you so much for coming and hosting this. Oh, my God. Of course. What's fun. Any time you'll want to draft some characters or something here on your show. Look, Mallory, I'm certainly not going to capitulate to your demands for some kind of a mulligan or other game-breaking new rule.

But you do have, we'll call it a roll over veto. So we'll see. Pocketing it. Go ahead and stick that in your pocket. And we'll see the next time you and I cross paths on a draft, maybe you'll be able to pull that. Joanna's looking at me like, no, you fucking don't. I love it. It's like a package of caboo.

No, that wouldn't be fair. That wouldn't be fair. If we do, okay, like, I mean, we can say Mallory and I are intend to do another screen draft, perhaps. Yes. In your home base. And I do not believe that vetoes should carry over between podcasts. No, I, you're right. You're right.

You're right. Oh, yes. No, yes, Joanna, you are a frequent, uh, beloved guest GM on. screen drafts. Very excited for you to bring along Mallory for her first time later in the summer. And my variant veto that I'll be bringing with me. A good topic. A topic

Joanna and Mallory that people have been clamoring for and I think are going to make a lot of people jealous that they are not at that table for this topic that the two of you're doing later in the summer. But you know, thank you for inviting me to do this. This was an absolute blast and

an honor. So what fun This was, I love, I love a copacetic draft and walking away from the table with a, with a skipping your step. I don't want controversy. I don't need controversy. Do we have any, do we want to do any, I don't have any rejects. You've heard all of my. We can do discards if you want to. Matt, who we usually do at the end is talk about a couple of discards that didn't make the list.

Do you, do you have any? I mean, none that I feel like wounded to not have featured or even frankly surprised didn't. didn't make the cut. You know, I had a few extra characters just in case. Was I prepared to make an argument in favor of Justin Hammer? You'll never know.

But I leave that question just there lingering in the ether. I will note the one character I was really genuinely unsure about because I know that there's a lot of shared investment in an affection for this character overall, but also that the villain aspect

specifically is a real complex, fraught arena, I wasn't sure if Wanda would make an appearance today, Joe, or maybe if so, where. That was the biggest question mark for me heading in. Her villainous performance in multiverse of madness

is so delicious. She's so good. Malin knows that I have a lot of issues with that, the way that that was written. If they had just kept it to like, if we could call Wanda a villain in Wanda Vision, and if she counted because she's been in

MCU movies, I would have drafted her. A villain initially in Ultron, part of the Ultron. I thought about it. So that was the one character who was on my initial list who didn't make it. But again, I knew it would be a difficult one. We only have one woman on this list, but that is Marvel's fault not ours is how I feel about that. Yes.

Do you have a prediction based on literally nothing? Because as you've said, we haven't seen the movie. So I don't know why I'm asking this. But like, where do you think King would have been if we'd done this after the movie? Like, where do you think King would have been if we'd done this after the movie? Where do you think King is going to rank immediately after quantum mania? Are we top tier territory instantly? Are we somewhere in the middle?

I think that's my hope. I think based on our response to the Loki finale, I think that if we had drafted this the way we should have, which would have been Loki, Thanos, Kilmonger, Zemo, I would put King right below Zemo, right? And above Vulture is where I would put King. And maybe above Zemo, we'll see. but it's hard to top Zimo.

I'm so glad to discover we like Zemo so much together. That makes you really happy. Oh, Zemo. Great stuff. What fun this was. Clay, thank you for blessing us with your brilliant format and guiding us through this journey of what turned out to be just shared love and joy and partnership and bliss.

They should have known. The greatest twist of all that we made it to the end without any major contention. Well, I love it. Well, yeah, thank you guys. Thank you so much. Let this be a lesson for the heroes in the MCU as they try to tackle their next threat.

Couldn't agree more. Couldn't agree more. Just say, if you enjoyed this, check out screen drafts. We just wrapped up a three-part Stephen Spielberg complete ranking with a bunch of great guests. So check that out. It was a lot of fun. And keep an eye out for Joanna and Mallory.

Coming up in a couple months. I love it. All right. Check out everything Clay and Co. We're doing over at screen drafts. Stay tuned for that future crossover event. And thank you to everyone for listening today. Hella just told us that we are in her seat.

So we have to laugh. That's it. That's a wrap on today's podcast. Thank you to Steve Allman for producing this episode and assuring us via Zoom chat that he isn't in fact still present on the Zoom currently. Thank you to Arjuna Ramgapal for, additional production work on this episode. And thank you to Jomiya Deneron for his work on

the social for this episode. And one more time. Thank you, Clay. Thank you for guest commissioning here on House of Our and gifting us with the screen drafts magic today. Remember everyone, pop over to the prestige TV feed on Monday for our next deep dive into the last of us on episode five, then pop back over for our House of Our Ant Man deep dive on Monday, February 20th, Mando season three preview you on Friday, February 24th. Mint Edition will be with you this coming Monday for Super Bowl trailer talk, and the Midnight Boys will be with you this coming Friday for their Ant Man instant reaction.

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