The Ringer-Verse - The Most Essential Obi-Wan Moments | House of R

Episode Date: May 24, 2022

Mal and Jo sound off to give you the greatest moments in Obi-Wan's 'Star Wars' history in anticipation of the new Disney+ series (12:22). Later they are joined by Ben Lindbergh to discuss the essential reading and comics that dive into the character's greatest hits (01:50:06). After that, Joanna sits down with 'Obi-Wan' series director Deborah Chow to share some of her thoughts on what the character has to offer in the new show (02:07:31). Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Guests: Ben Lindbergh and Deborah Chow Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Matt Bellany, founding partner of Puck News, and I'm covering the inside conversation about money and power in Hollywood. With my new show, The Town, I'm going to take you inside Hollywood with exclusive insight on what people in show business are actually talking about. Multiple times a week, I'll talk to some of the smartest people I know, journalists, insiders, all of whom can break down the hottest topics in entertainment to tell you what's really going on. Listen now. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, Every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks,

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Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfairadio.com. This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors. New Whole Foods, Market Peach, Apricot, Rose, Italian soda. Perfect for a picnic or brunch, as is their trending mango, Yuzu, chantilly cake. But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sale signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items.

Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. What brings you out this far? This little droid. I think he's searching for his former master, but I've never seen such devotion in a droid before. He claims to be the property of an Obi-One Canobi. Is he a relative of yours? Do you know who he's talking about?

Obi-Wan, Kenobi. Obi-Wan. Now that's the name I've not heard in a long time. A long time. And welcome into the Obieverse here on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin, and it is, I mean, I always say it's my absolute pleasure, and it always is. But today, it is sincerely. and earnestly.

My pleasure. We've been faking it this whole time, but now the real joy starts to invite you. Not only back to Tatooine, but to join us on the ringer's nexus podcast feed for all things fandom and for all things, Obi-1 Canobi. Joining me today.

Now that she's finished telling me when the time comes, he must be trained to pod. It's my house of our co-host, Joanna Robinson. Malie! Hello there. Hello there. What a joy.

Oh, my God. I wish folks at home could see the fact that Mallory Rubin has just thrust her OB-1 phone go-pop like bobblehead into the camera. What a joy. What a delight. What an honor, a true honor to be here. There's a lot of things that Mallory Rubin and I have. in common, but our love of Obi-Wan Kenobi and also Ewe and McGregor might be our strongest bond yet.

So I'm just so excited to do this. So we're here to prep folks, but also just sort of like revel in our love for something and someone we've loved for a long time. Yes. This will hopefully be a useful podcast for all of our listeners and also, you know, hour and a half ish of sheer indulgence for us. Classic. Classic Ruben and Robinson.

Oh, boy. Joe, what a week. What a week awaits. It is Obi-One week, of course. It is Stranger Things Week. It is Star Wars Celebration Week. It's Thor trailer week. Everything is happening all at once.

We'll be covering as much of it as possible here on the Ring ofverse. On the programming reminders front, Before we look ahead, we got to say, of course, that if you have not yet listened to the debut episode of Mint Edition, what are you doing? Junior Mintz assemble, go check it out. Oh, my God. How proud are we of our Padawans. Swelling with our Padawans, but, you know, Jomi and Steve, striking out on their own makes me so happy. Incredible. Incredible. Check out. Let me tell you something Mallory Milderman, and I already told Steve this. I don't know anything about Halo, and I had a great time listening.

to Joey and Steve talk about it. So there you go. Something for everyone in that podcast. Hello the series talk on Mint Edition with Jomi and Steve. Halo the Cat talk here on House of our always. Okay, but I know a lot about Hello the Cat. Oh boy. Tune back in for the next Mint Edition installment coming soon.

A wonderful debut. There's a lot going on in the ring of verse. Elsewhere on the feet. Stranger Things Volume 1, season 4. Volume 1 drops on May 27th. And Joanna and I will be breaking down these supersized episodes for you here on The House of R. We are going to have...

Here's our plan. Here's what we're planning. Three episodes coming for you. Pod 1, covering episodes 1 through 3 of season 4, volume 1. Uh-huh. Pod 2, covering episodes 4 through 6 of season 4, volume 1. Pod 3, covering the Jumbo Volume 1 finale. I was just saying the other day how jumbo is a word we don't use enough, like outside of the realm of like prawns and shrimp, right?

Jumbo, what a great word. It is a truly a long, long episode. Let's introduce it into the house of our lexicon. Let's start breaking it out. Jumbo time. Make Jumbo happen. Yeah. Can't wait to talk about stranger things with you, pal.

I am genuinely so excited to head to the upside down with you. so that'll be a blast. And of course, a galaxy of Star Wars content awaits the midnight boys. Poo-Piu! We'll have their instant reaction to the double episode, Obi-One Canobie premiere,

this Friday. And then Joe and I will be back with our house of our OB-Premere deep dive the following Monday, busy holiday weekend here at the Ringervverse. And that's not all, because the Ringervverse is heading to Star Wars celebration. So we will have some pop-up pods

as warranted, as news trickles out from the panels. And we're going to be doing a ringerverse live show at the Star Wars Celebration pod stage at 2 p.m. Pacific on Friday, May 27th. So if you are attending Star Wars Celebration, if you're going to be in Anaheim, please come to our live show and track all of the ringerverse action across the weekend by following the ringerverse across our myriad social channels. Okay. That was a lot.

That was a whole podcast length of programming announcements, but guess what? We haven't even started. Because today we are looking ahead to the Obi-1 Kenobi premiere with a House of Our Primer. First, Joe and I are going to be counting down the 10 most essential Obi-1 moments from TV and movie canon, which we hope again will serve as a handy refresher, the moments that you should go revisit, go re-watch before the new show premieres, the moments that we consider the most iconic, moments that feel most inextricable from Obi-1 Kenobi's arc, the moments that we feel in certain cases are likely to have a real bearing on the impending six-episode Disney Plus series.

And let's just be honest, the moments where we think that Ewe and McGregor's beard looks particularly resplendent. There are going to be a couple of those. And that's our prerogative, frankly. And listen, some of us, and I'm not going to say who, but some of us might have gone slightly off-prompt and might have bent the rules of the list. So we'll have to see who that might have been from a certain point of you. All answers are correct.

I love it. Here's what we're going to do today. We're going to do it height meter style. So if you have listened to our past seasonal hype meter pods where we look ahead to what we're anticipating, you know what that means. If not, we're going to tell you right now, it means that we have made our respective top 10 lists. And we don't know what the other person picked. We're going to surprise each other. We're going to count down.

from 10 to 1. And if we have moments in common, we would discuss them at the highest ranking spot. Joe, how many moments do you think we're going to have in common? What's your prediction? I actually don't think it's going to be that much of an overlap, honestly, because knowing your love of the Philoniverse and my love of live action, I mean, like, you know, we're definitely going to have some overlap. But I think we're, I think your Philoniverse tenancies are going to mean your list is going to be a little different than mine.

And there's one very important thing that I actually left off my list entirely because I just want to cede the floor to you on it. So that's just a preview. I know exactly what you're talking about. And rest assured, it made the cut. Interesting. Okay, I'm going to predict that we have seven of ten in common. But it sounds like you're taking the under. I'm going to say four.

Oh my God. What? Variety is the spice of life, Mallory. Wow. Okay. We just want to cover Obi-One Canobi from all angles of the geometric beard, right? I love, I love to look at Obi-One-Kadobie from all angles. It's my favorite thing to do.

I agree. I agree. Okay. If somehow we do have that many differences across our list, we will have covered quite a large portion of Obi-Wan's Canada, but there will still be more things that we haven't covered. And so if any members of the team here

feel just appalled by an oversight, I think Arjuna, I'll just say, is standing at the ready because he told us on Slack like five days ago before either of us had either made our list, that his list was ready. So we will obviously have some honorable mentions coming at the end.

And then after all that, Ben Lindbergh, one of the ringers, Resident Jedi Council members is going to join us to highlight three essential moments from Obi-1's literary canon. Novels, comics.

So you have a little mini-reading list primer there to pair with your watch list. And that's not all. Jumbo pod. Jumbo wall-to-wall Canovi coverage. Joe, you have a special chat coming. Oh my gosh.

Deb Chow, ever heard of her? Great director. Directed some of the Mandalorian has directed all of the Kenobi episodes. So I had a chance to talk to Deb Chow, but as is Lucas Films 1, like, I haven't seen any episodes. Deb Chow, of course, can't say a single word about any episodes. So instead, I asked her to do a favor for all of us, which is just, like, give us recommendations

of what to watch to get ready. So it's like Taylor made from the director herself. What are some of the inspoes here, both in Star Wars canon and then, like, you and I love asking this question. and what is not in the canon, other cinematic influences, other influences on it. So she had some great answers for that.

So, you know, just a lot of recommendations from a lot of smart people and then I'm also here. So let's talk about Obi-1. Incredible. Okay. For all of that,

obviously, as Joja said, we have not seen anything from the show that is about to air except for the trailers. But on the friendly neighborhood, spoiler warning front, today's podcast will feature plot details from all of Star Wars? I guess that's the spoiler warning.

Proceed with caution. Anything from Obi-1's canon, anything from the vast wide Star Wars canon. It's on the table today. That's the point. The point is to talk about existing canon. So proceed with more caution than Obi-1 did when hiding Luke on his father,

Anakin's home planet, and hiding out under the name. Old Ben Kenobi, still insane. Can't believe it happened. We'll never stop talking about it. Shocking stuff. And calling him Skywalker. I mean, oh my God. He's handsome, but is he bright? Let's discuss.

Okay, it's time. We're going to start with number 10, and I just want to say that limiting this to 10 was nearly impossible. A genuine struggle for me, as I'm sure it was for you as well. In certain spots, I'm going to cheat by accounting for entire plot lines and arcs and using one key moment of origin or culmination as a way in. Yeah. I, you know, I didn't go as heavy on the animated shows as I thought I might, though, I did, I did still go.

They're definitely, they're present on my list. And maybe you will think I did go heavy. I don't know. I'm not sure. It's time, Joanna. Number 10, kick it off for us. What we got? So as I, as I warn, someone here on this podcast might have gone slightly, slightly off prompt in talking about this.

And I think this is my most off-base entry here. Okay. And then everything else will feel pretty much in line. So I just want to warn you guys if you're like, is this going to be chaos all the way down? No, this is most chaotic entry. It is not from a Star War. Twist! Or anything to do with that.

But it does feature E.M. McGregor. And it's this. You know, I've loved E. and McGregor my whole life. of my top number one favorite thing. Part of my like obsession with Euma Greger, and this is tied to Obi-Wan Kenobi, I promise. But part of my obsessive love for E.M.

McGregor means that I have seen all of his docket series where he rides a motorcycle around the world with his friend Charlie. Long way around, long way up, long way down. These are great, great just hangs. If you want to hang with Ewe and McGregor as he rides around the world. But here's one of my favorite parts about those shows is that no matter where Yoam McGregor is in the world, no matter what jam he gets himself into,

they can't find a place to stay, their visas aren't working, blah, blah, he can always lean on the Star Wars, Obi-1 can open, no matter where he is, someone will be like, Star Wars? And, like, You-Megregor can get out of a jam. So it just speaks to, I think. We already knew this.

But if you watch these dokey series, you will really know this. It speaks to Obi-Wan's global, elemental popularity and place in the culture. So I just want to say, I love those shows. I think they're great. And actually, it'll really help you get to know

who Yuma McGregor is when his backs up against the wall. And is it always great? Probably not. We're all human. Sometimes he sleeps in dirt and is grumpy about it. But yeah, that reliance on the Star Wars magic key is pretty hilarious. Does he ever sleep in sand, you know?

Method acting, prepping for the roll. It's rough. It gets everywhere. You don't want to sleep in sand, man. So, yeah. This is just a vintage Joe experience right here. This is incredible. And I had never seen this, but you have over the recent weeks and months shared some of these clips with me.

Just for fun. Delightful. Joyful. Absolutely wonderful. If I can find it, I might give Steve a little clip to play here, which is where Yom Greger talks about how he had his first Star Wars dream. I had a kind of my only ever, ever Star Wars dream this morning. But I was naked as Obi-One-Konobie.

It was quite a weird one that. Be mindful of your thoughts. They betray you. Same. Same. Anyway, that's my number 10. I promise to get back on track with the rest of my picks. Mallory?

I think it was an inspired selection. I applauded. I support it. And thank you for mentioning the naked Obi-1 dream. That was meaningful. My number 10, after my perhaps apocryphal run-up, where I said I did not have as much of a presence from the animated shows as maybe I thought I would. Is Obi-1 going undercover in Star Wars, the Clone Wars?

This is a season four. You have this? I have this. Oh, my God. You have this higher on your list? I do. Holy shit. Okay.

Great. Then I'll say no more. First overlap. Oh, my God. This is a twist. I thought this was the least likely on my list for us to overlap on. I actually think it's on my list because you've talked about it before and got me so excited about it that I rewatched it.

It is so great. Yeah. It's great. Okay. Awesome. All right. So we'll circle back to that one. Why don't you go first with nine then since I cut you off?

I feel pretty sure you're going to have nine on your list, too. I would be really surprised if you didn't because I know it's a favorite of yours. Okay. Number nine from episode three, Revenge of the Sith, Obi-1 Kenobi, battling General Grevis. I actually don't have General Canobey. I don't have this. No, no, no.

Amazing. Okay. Yeah. Shock after shock here. All right. Hello there. General Canobey. This, if you are looking to rewatch, I mean, I think, frankly, you could just do so via

meme on social media platforms of your choosing because this sequence is the stuff of meme legend. Hello there. General Canobey. If you want to go back to the film and revisit it, 57 minutes, 25 seconds, take it from there. I think that in a way this is more essential as a testament. to Obi-Wan's lasting power as an internet legend and a character for which we all feel this really

abiding affection than anything else. But it's also a really cool fight. It's a key moment in Obi-1's overall arc and the overall Clone Wars conflict, the fall of the Republic, the rise of the Galactic Empire. Obi-1 best grievous on Udipal strikes a decisive blow against the separatists. part of what I love about this is that especially after, you know, watching all of the, the clone wars and seeing so many of the sequences between them, he knows his enemy.

You know, he's learned, he's studied, he is prepared now for Grievous's multi-saber tactics, he's ready to adjust to combat skills that he would prefer to avoid entirely, you know, he even has to use a blaster here in a moment of need. So, uh,

so much, and I like that, because all of that feels germane to me heading into the new show. I'm not sure that in a vacuum this would have made my top 10, but heading into the new series. I think a lot of that feels like key priming ingredients. Like, can a Jedi in hiding constantly use a lightsaber? Well, Canaan Jaris would say no, folks.

You know, Obi-1, he's going to have to use blasters. He's going to have to use other methods of fighting so that he can remain elusive, remain in stealth mode. And also, he's going to be facing the Inquisitors. While, to be clear, the Inquisitors are powerful, powerful force-sensitive force users, and Grievous was not. The twirling lightsaber action that Grievous loves so much is still good prep work for spinning double-bladed Inquisitor sabers, right? And then, you know, in terms of thinking about Obi-1's overall can, and like the timeline in this moment,

I think, is also just hugely important beyond Grievous's death. there's so much puppeteering around this showdown. You know, the true nature of the separatist attack is not yet known when Obi-1 heads to Udipal. The viceroy doesn't know why Crevis is sending him and his fellows to Mustafa.

What awaits there, of course. I don't know. He didn't tell me if other people are coming. I don't know. Not sure we're meeting there. Order 66 mere moments away. And then, of course, while Obi-1 is gone,

while he's on this mission... The Jedi counselor is the truth about Palpatine and Anakin falls to the dark side. Pretty big deal. Lots of stuff happening. Pretty big deal. So the duel reminds us of what Obi-1 can achieve of how truly capable and formidable he is, but also of the dangers at play when he is forced into isolation and separated from his allies and friends. And again, I feel like that could be pretty germane.

That separation thing is so. interesting because I was like in rewatching all this obiwan stuff it's so interesting um I don't exactly have this actually I'll talk about this later I want to talk about this later um okay can I do my number nine it's sort of like it's gonna slightly follow yours okay so here's uh so I'll premise it in case you have it higher uh pre battle of geonosis uh obi one greeting Anakin and Padmay in the arena all you know okay attack of the clones baby I remember I warned you that attack the clones Beyond mirror. Okay, I think this is actually kind of key because the thing about Obi-1-Kon-Kadobi, there's a lot of things about Obi-1-Kadobi, but his wit and his wisdom and his sass and his quips,

even when things are at their worst, is a key element of him. And it's a way that they connected, you know, if you, what is so interesting way of the Obi-1-Kadobie series is it's this, like, it's the meat of the Obi-1 sandwich where we have the prequels and Clone Wars, right? And then we've got Alec Guinness. If I had said that, you would have stopped me and you would have said male, phrasing. The meat of the Yumm Griger Alec Guinness sandwich is this series. But that's in Alex Guinness's portrayal of you of Obi-Wi-Wanobie, right? Like that there's just like some droll-dry element to him.

And it's fun to see that wit and sass sort of go all the way. through. You know, and so when Padma and Anakin roll up into the arena here and Obi-1 is shackled with his hands above his head, you know? And he's like, what are you doing here basically? And Anakin's like, we're at a rescue. He's like, oh, well done, you know? I love that moment.

Yeah. Good job, I think is exactly what he says. And then he says later, like when Padme like climbs up the pillar, he's like, looks like she's on top of it, you know, like shit like that, right? So the wit and the charm of Obi-Wan is a key part of him. And it's part of it. It ties back to General Grievous. You mentioned the most famous General Grievous Obi-Wan interaction.

But they interact earlier. And he doesn't just say, he says, General Canobey, the negotiator. That's what he says, right? And this is Obi-1's reputation that he's gotten throughout the Clone Wars. And so I think this idea of like, Obi-Wan, the negotiator, Obi-Wan the charmer, Obi-W-W-I-N. know, like you, you don't think about that necessarily when you think about the hermit in, in the, in the desert.

Yeah. And we know that he's going to be in sort of like a dark, reflective place. But we also know that you don't hire you, McGregor and not let him, like, cook, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. So, there you go. I love that. That's a, I was not sure if either of us would have ultimately an attack of the clones representative

on the list, but I think that's a great, great, great pick because, as you said, that gets into something really, really like, elemental about his character and his role in the story. And no matter how dire things might be, our guy is always ready with his zing. No matter how about the movie around him might be. Fun fact for you, Mallory Rubin, and like, hold on to your monocle. That's not my last attack of the clone century on the list. I'm stunned. Yep.

Next. Wow. Okay. Well, you might be right with your prediction that we'd have four overlapping instead of seven. I love this. This is a thrill. Okay. Number eight. What have you? Oh, you want me to go first? All right. This is an animated entries from Rebels. It's twin sentence. I have this higher on my list. I figured you would. Okay. We'll go back to it. What do you have in a read? Okay. I have. This is the one that I'm anticipating me being dunked on for including. but I'm prepared to make my case.

Obi-One telling Padme about the younglings, Revenge of the Siff. No, I almost put on, I'm not going to talk on you, I almost put it somewhere. I almost put something with the younglings on the list. Go for it. Run with it. This was the one that I took off the list the most and I just, like, was subbing it in and out. And you know what, Joe?

I just could not at the end of the day show up today without it. I couldn't move forward. You're telling me you almost like viciously cut the younglings several times. Then you were like, not the younglings. And you got them. Yeah. There was going to be a moment on the pod where you told Steve that you had seen me killing the younglings in my Google Doc. But it's not going to happen because they made the cut and here they are.

Millions of voices cried out. We're suddenly silent. Anyway, go ahead. Oh my God. Okay. So this is at the hour 38, 42nd mark. this is when this memorable sequence begins in Revenge of the Sith. Now, am I saying to you, my cherished co-host, to our wonderful listeners, that this is a good scene?

I am not. Yeah. But I am saying that it is an essential scene. And that is the exercise today. So here, let me make my case. Obi-One. Back from watching that incriminating and distressing hollow footage with Yoda at the Jedi Temple. I can't watch anymore.

Takes Yoda's advice. Follows his feelings. Right to Padme. Who he knows will lead him to Anakin. I'm going to try. I don't know if I will succeed. I'm going to try not to be like a complete. horn dog the entire pot. But I will say he looks so hot in this scene. Just one of the many reasons.

I'm also glad that an Obi-1 Padma scene is on here because, like, I hope all of us have this feeling as we re-watch the prequels that we're like, girl, how could you choose Anakin when Obi-1 is right there? This is exactly what I was going to say. I think this sequence is like one of the real bits of fodder for the very fervent Padmeo Obi-Won shipping that still continues to this day on the internet. I think obviously the scene is most famous for the just legendary line reading when he is recounting the horrors that he has observed, you know, the hideous truth, that he has learned when he says, I have seen the security hologram of him killing younglings.

And you can't see because you're listening and this is an audio experience, but I, like you and McGregor, like Obi-Wan-Kobey, have moved my hand to my lower lip and my chin to convey my great distress. That moment is just historic. Please allow me to do my best Natalie Portman in response.

Please. Please. Not Anakin. He couldn't. Screw in her. Not anymore. Oh, my God. I think I just.

hold like a, what are the muscles around your rib cage? Slash slat it's so hard. Oh my Lord. There are some less quoted, but certainly other crucial lines

in that scene as well. He is engraved danger, Padmay, from the Sith. From himself. From himself, Joe. From himself, Padmay. Obi-Wan had just told Yoda that he could not kill his apprentice. He says, send me to kill the emperor.

I will not kill Anakin. But here, in sharing the truth with Padmei, and saying it aloud, even more so than seeing the youngling slaughter or hearing Sidious, ask Vader to rise, or any of that, he is really beginning to confront the truth of what his apprentice,

his friend, his brother, has become. Padmay, he says, anachin has turned to the dust. dark side. And it is important that Obi-1 Kenobi voiced this aloud. And yet, he has not abandoned all hope. He was deceived by a lie, he tells her. We all were. So we're not yet at the seismic, well, then you are lost moment that I feel certain is coming on both of our lists later in this very podcast. There's still a glimmer here, still a chance of breaking through. And I really love that aspect of the scene. And it stems from the affection that Obi-1 feels for Anakin. And so it just

really hits like a ton of bricks when as he's exiting the room, he turns to a very pregnant Padmae and says, Anakin is the father, isn't he? I'm so sorry. And I'm curious to know how you feel about that moment. Go ahead. I have a lot of, yeah, I have a lot of thoughts and feelings about this. But further fodder for the, um, the shipping. Obi-1 sure is hot, but is he smart? thing. Padme has been wearing increasingly flowy, empire-waisted gowns for a while now. I maintain that it's absurd that not every single person in the galaxy was aware of the Anakin Padme relationship because they stood behind a pillar, one pillar, sort of obscuring them from view as they embraced and kissed and shared their pregnancy news in plain sight.

She's got twin heartbeats going on inside of her and he's just like, News to me, babe. Focused on a republic business, you know? I thought this was just the fashion of the ladies. So, yeah. No, great, great entry. What were you going to say, Mal? No, no, no.

I think that part of the reason that I love the Clone Wars, which will come up again today so much, is because we get a lot of moments between Anakin and Obi-Wan and Padman, Asoka, and Satina, like all these characters and others, where we, not only where we learn a lot about them, but where they get to learn about each other. And Anakin and Obi-1 in the Clone Wars,

like actually do occasionally have real, albeit halted, not fully realized conversations about love, about relationships. Like, an example, this is also, by the way, an example of me. Smuggling. Sneaking in an item that is, yeah, smuggling. We're a smugglers run here. We're on solo action here. A completely unrelated moment that is not on my top ten,

but that I now get to talk about here. Season six, episode six of Clone Wars, The Rise of Clovis is another great arc. The moment I did consider actually putting on the list, there's this vengeful, jealous rage that is propelling Anakin. He's really struggling to cope, seeing Padman and Clovis together.

And Obi-1 seeks him out and attempts to find this common ground and guide him by talking about Seteen. He says to him, Anakin, I understand to a degree what is going on. you've met Sotene, you know I once harbored feelings for her. It's not that we're not allowed to have these feelings. It's natural.

And I think that this is all just so painful to revisit because they're just, they're so close, like they're right on the precipice to actually fully opening up to each other. But they just can't. They can just never take that final step. And so Anakin maintains this fiction that he and Padmaire are just friends and Obi-One remains, like, staunchly committed to the misguided Jedi Creed, you know, telling I'm friends, you must remain. despite the longing that he has experienced in his own life,

which again, I will be talking about more later today. And so when Obi-Wan confronts Padmei, everyone, all of the characters, they're just like engaging in these half-truths with each other. And so he has to, speaking of smuggling, he has to smuggle himself aboard her ship, knowing that she will take him to Anakin, rather than just being able to have a frank conversation with Anakin about how he feels for Padmae,

why he is so afraid to lose her and any number of other things that could have ultimately prevented Palpatine from being able to manipulate him to fall to the dark side. Tragic. Honestly tragic, so. Men would literally hack the limbs off of their brother

then go to therapy and have a conversation. Oh my God. Yeah, yeah, no. This actually blees well into my next one. Is that okay? Can I go? Absolutely. Are we on? This is your seventh?

Seventh. Okay. Bring it. Coming up from lower down on your list. Okay. This is the Clone Wars Season 4 undercover arc. Oh, great. From Deception through Crisis on Nabu, right?

Amazing. Okay, yes. Episode 15 through 18 of season four. Let's do it. When you think about the Clone Wars and whether or not you're listening to this episode and you've seen all the Clone Wars or you haven't, that is fine. But here's a few things that are true about the Clone Wars. I don't know what the main purpose other than like let's spend more time in this universe was for the animated series.

But like looking back on it, the main accomplishment of Clone Wars as far as I'm concerned is the rehab of Anakin Skywalker as a character that we are invested in. We get to spend more time with him before his fall and better understand the tragedy of his fall. Okay. But we don't need more time to understand open. One Canobi. We understand him. We'll learn some things. Mal is going to talk about some things.

Like, we don't need to rehab Obi-1-Kanovy. That's not necessary. So instead, we are just seeing some extra lengths, extra fringes, extra extensions of things that we knew already existed in Obi-1-Kinobi. And so when we first meet him in a new hope, and he's like, these aren't the droids you're looking for. Like, we know that Obi-1-Kinobi can, like, slip and slide around the universe if he needs to. Like, he knows how to do that.

But we see the extent of it and this sort of, like, gray area space that he takes up in this undercover arc. And, of course, if we're thinking about Obi-1-Kanobi in this new show, when he's in hiding, on the run, we see that he's going to leave Tatumee. So he's not just, like, you know, hunkering down to the cave. he's at least going to one city planet, you know. And so, Obi-1 undercover, Obi-1 working connections, Obi-1 deceiving people for the greater good, that is something that we're interested in exploring. And that's something that's covered really well in these episodes.

And then I think it's going to come into play into this new series. What do you want to say about the undercover arc? That I agree. I agree with all that. I also just, you know, my short hand for this arc is, while it's an arc that I love, and an arc that made my top ten, I also like to refer to it as the unthinkably tragic arc where they shaved Obi-1 Canobie's beard. And frankly, how dare they?

Yeah. How dare they? So this, I think, would have made my list regardless, but the thing that really cemented it, there's a Disney Plus UK tweet. A few days ago. Arjuna was just telling me. Yes. And it had like basically the week leading up, you know, a viewing guide.

Here's what you should watch every day. And there were three Clone Wars arcs included on this watch list. This was one of them. The other two are season two episodes 12 through 16 and season 5 episodes 14 through 16, which what could those be about? Who knows? Again later today. But I think that like the reasons why,

why that would be included on the watch list are a lot of what you just said. Like all of the different skills that Obi-1 possesses, the way that he functions not only in relationship to the other characters, but inside of the Jedi Order,

inside of galactic affairs, the innovation that he needs to display. I think that this arc just in general, as people listening to this podcast who are interested in Star Wars, it's just fun TV. It really has everything. Our guy, Cadbane is a key player,

asshole teen Boba. makes an appearance. Balfi, of course, at the heart of things, when isn't he? But in a kind of good and interesting way here, there's a prison break,

there's like this escape room, bounty hunter competition, portal meets hunger games. It's awesome. And in terms of what makes it feel like an essential Obi-1 moment for me, I think everything you just said, and like the fact that when he is on his own here,

we get to see the way that he innovates, the way that when he chooses to take a risk, right, when he chooses to be restrained, when he has to solve a puzzle, when he has to solve the riddle of a person that he needs to navigate

and read and interact with. He has to be physically elite, mentally sharp. He's got to go full survivor here, right? He has to out, wait out, play out last. This is, and it's gonna have to do that

against the Inquisitors. This is the counter argument of Obi-One. Is he that smart? We're like, yeah. Yeah. Look at my guy in the box. He's fucking crushing it.

Maybe not when it comes to spotting deeply pregnant women, but, you know, what he needs to. But I think that. That I think also what's true, what becomes really clear as you watch and rewatch and rewatch the prequels, right, is that like the way that they contrast Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker as like someone who loves a fight, someone who loves the chaos, which is Anakin, and someone who would rather do anything, honestly, than he hates, he doesn't hate, he doesn't love war, he has no taste for war, he has no taste for the chaos of flying. Will John Snow Energy. It hates a blaster.

Yeah. Doesn't love killing. He wants to negotiate. He wants to puzzle it out. He wants to figure it out that way. And so I think this is part of it where it's like, let me slip in the back door here and try to figure out a way to do this. Not kick open the front door. And I think that's an interesting part of his character.

I completely agree. I think also just like with the Obi-1 and Anakin dynamic, this is a really key moment in their shared history. Because in order to go undercover as Hardeen, Obi-1 has to fake him. his death. And Anakin's not in on the plan. And he is initially despondent, thinking that he has lost Obi-1. And that's really compelling to see, too, like the real grief that he carries when he thinks that Obi-Wan, who he's constantly complaining about and saying is holding him back is not going to be in his life anymore. And then the way that that shifts, he is furious when he learns the truth. And that really fuels and has a bearing on quite a few essential canon elements that

that come after that, his inability to fully trust Obi-Wan, his resentment that Obi-1 might be, and his suspicion that Obi-1 might be keeping things from him or not fully empowering him. His belief more beyond Obi-1, more broadly, that the counsel does not trust him, that the counsel is lying to him and deceiving to him. And then, of course, just the story-wurping fear

that he has when it comes to the prospect of losing people that he loves, all of that primes him to be susceptible to Palpatine's game, And so putting the Kenobi guard up, you know, leading him to ask if they're missing anything. Like all of this, the whole picture, it's just a really key and fun arc. I would highly recommend it. I'm glad it's on both of the world lists. It's a great one.

Colon, trust issues. Absolutely. The true through line of all of Star Wars trust issues. My number seven, Force Ghost Obi-One, chatting with Luke. from a certain point of view in return of the Jedi. Do you have this? I kind of, mm. There's a lot that could technically connect.

I kind of have smuggled it into another point. So do you want to wait until then or do you want to go now? I am fine with either. You pick. Up to you. Can we go? Can we hold it till later? Is that okay?

Absolutely. All right. Surprising everyone, including myself. We're returning to the worst Star Wars movie, attack of the club. Well, you know, your mileage be very. So this is, this is your number six. My number six. Okay. It is Obi-1 Canobi and Dexter. I wonder why it didn't show up in the analysis archives.

You see, funny little cuts on the side to give it away. Those analysis droids only focus on symbol. I should think that you Jedi would have more respect for the difference between knowledge and wisdom. Well, if droids could think there'd been none of us here, would that? Do you have this on your list? I do not. Bring it. Bring it. This is genuinely one of my favorite parts of the movie, and this is why.

This sequence in Dexter's Diner, as Obi-1 Canobi is trying to, he's turned into Detective Canobi. I think that's a key thing to talk about in Attack of the Clones. He's turned into Detective Canobi, and he is trying to figure out the source of some darts and the assassination attempt and unravel everything that's going on there. And he goes to one of his sources, Dexter, Jeter. I hope for why you're saying that name. Because it's ridiculous.

So great. Two things are at play here. Number one, that scene in the diner, which is, I think I mentioned this elsewhere, it's just all pixels and E. E. O. McGregor. And the fact that E. McGregor, again, to go back to the charm thing, but not just rest on it, but he's just like spurting charm all over the place, acting against nothing, tennis balls. you know, like that's just the power of E.O. McGregor. Like, nothing that George Lucas could throw at him, not Jar Jar Binks, not anything, could deter Eweb from giving an incredible performance in the prequels. All right. So, but what's equally important beyond that is this idea that, you know, again, this might play into the new series we don't know, but like this idea that that Canobi has this ability to follow leads to not just rely on the technology, the, the,

You know, the Jedi Council has their tech, but he goes to the ground and talks to other sources to figure out, you know, the truth where he can find the truth. And that is a really interesting part of Obi-1-Kadobie. And then I'm going to smuggle in one of the other thing here and say, then later on Geonosis, when we get the conversation between Django-Fet and Obi-Wan Kenobi, where they are being incredibly polite to each other. but there's all this other subtext at play is all part of this like Detective Canobi story that is just somehow in the middle of this other movie. I don't think we talk enough about the fact that

Obi-1 Canobi discovers the clone army on Camino. That's a pretty big deal. Now he does it accidentally, but he does it. Yeah. So. Okay. Great pick. A shocking presence from,

From Attack of the Clones on the Joanna Robbins's top ten. That's it for me. That's it for me in Attack of the Clones. But I will say, like, I genuinely, every time I rewatch the prequels, which I have many, many times, even though they're not films that I love, but I'm like, I got to study them. I got to understand them, right? When we get to the scene, I'm genuinely, I'm genuinely throw. Yeah. I mean, Attack of the Clones is a huge Obi-1 movie.

A lot of core canon there. Look what has become of you. A rat in the table. desert. Look what I have risen above. I have come to kill you, but perhaps it's worse to leave you here, festering in your squalor. My number six is one that you already had, so we can talk about it here together. This is Obi-Wan winning the decisive duel with Mall in Star Wars Rebels, Twin Suns, season three,

episode 20. I think, look, we could do, and maybe one day we will, an entire ranking, just. of the best moments between Maul and Obi-1. There are that many to pick from. And this is, again, spoiler, not actually the only one on my list

and I suspect not the only one on yours. But this is really one of the best shared moments. It's one of the most indispensable overall Obi-1 moments for understanding the evolution of his character, the way that he changes over time. And honestly, just one of the best episodes

of Star Wars TV. It's really great. You should watch it. beautiful, it's lovely. The episode takes place in 2BY. So that's two years before a new hope.

Two years before we say goodbye to Obi-1 and then say hello to him again as a force ghost. 30 years after Phantom Menace in the canon timeline. 30 years, Joe, of Obi-1,

mall, dueling, feuding, fighting, I love that this episode is here in this spot because Obi-1 is not a huge part of Star Wars rebels, but he's present, the Holocron messages, etc. But he is really central here. And I think that the episode in the encounter really smartly helped to fill in his pre-OG trilogy timeline. Give us this key download here.

And it's the culmination of one of the defining rivalries across all of Star Wars, which Ball and Obi-Wan definitely are. I think it's interesting to see, like, in general, on these lists, we'll tally it up at the end. But I have a lot of duels on my list, like more than I was anticipating having. And I was trying to reflect on why that is here and elsewhere. And I think it just speaks to how, like,

of course, on the one hand, how highly cinematic and memorable Star Wars, lightsaber duels are. And he's a part of a lot of these really big climactic fights. But more so, I think it's because his fights, Obi-1's fights a particular really connect to core character moments and to shared arcs, whether it's a friendship, a rivalry, whatever the case may be. And so the thing that I find so fascinating about this particular duel is that it's over

before it even begins. You're expecting, after all of this build-up, again, 30 years of canon timeline, that we're going to see these two go at it for seven minutes or something like that. Obi-1 kills Maul on Maul's first attacking thrust. And that's part of the genius of it. He, it's, it's, I think it's so, it's so, like, it taps into the distinctions between them and their approach. So, mall can't let anything go.

Can't move on. And Obi-1 has been content to wait. He did not want, this connects to what you were saying a few minutes ago, he did not want to kill Mall here. He didn't even want to fight him. But he had to, both. because of the Ezra connection, but also because what Mall says when he says, and this is at the 18-minute mark in the episode, why come to this place? Not simply to hide, oh, you have a purpose here. Perhaps you are protecting something? No, protecting someone. His eyes change. We hear the

wush. His lightsaber ignites. As soon as he realizes that Luke is in danger, as soon as the secret of of his identity, his location, his existence is in jeopardy of discovery. He activates a saber, he springs into action, and Obi-1, the protector, comes to the four. And that is the dominant impulse. And so even though this comes after the events of the TV show that we're about to watch in the Canon timeline, it's a key primer for that Obi-1 protector role, I think, and feels like really key set up for understanding how he's going to respond to anyone, inquisitors or otherwise, who are inching toward discovering Luke's presence on Tatouine.

So I have this on my list for two reasons. And one of them is exactly what you just said. And I'll circle back to that in a second. But the other is actually also a point you covered earlier in the conversation about the duel with grievous, because this idea of Obi-1, having a fight with someone, learning something, and then having that fight with them again, right? And so I believe that the reason he's able to defeat Maul so quickly is that he responds differently to the same attack that we see in dual the fates.

He just does things differently this time, right? And so that sort of like learn, adapt, change model in Obi-Wan Kenobi comes through here as it does in the Great Grievous example I used before. And then also exactly that for me the key exchange, but it speaks to this idea of like, I'll go look after the boy that he says, right at the end of Revenge of the Sis, right? I'll look after him. His mall says, look what has become of you, a rat in the desert.

And Kenobi says, look at what I've risen above, right? And, like, that idea that, like, Kenobi has spent so much time. And it all circles back to, I'm getting kind of emotional thinking about this, right? But it also goes back to Quagon dying. We're going to talk about that, I'm certain, in a bit. But, like, quag on dying.

and asking Obi-Wan to look after Anikin, look after the boy, right? And, and Obi-1's failure around that. We're going to talk about that, I'm certain. But this chance to do it differently this time, right? And this chance, this is all he has to cling to is protection. And we've gotten this glimpse of baby Little Luke in the trailer. But, like, this is the whole thing. can I can I do it right this time?

I have to do it differently this time, right? The adapt and change model. So like what I did with Anakin, I'm not going to do again, but I'm still here. For years in the desert, I'm here. I love that. Oh, my God. That, that's a great point. And I'm so glad you mentioned Quigon because it makes me think of how one of the really

affecting things about that sequence is that Obi-on sort of, you know, cradles mall after he has dealt this fatal stroke. and they have this exchange that is really steeped in their respective relationship to the force and to the Jedi lore. And Quigon was the one who believed so fervently that Anakin was the chosen one. Obi-1 did not have the level of buy-in there that Quigon did. But when Maul says about Luke here, tell me, is it the chosen one? Obi-1 says he is. and the idea that he has like embraced.

And then you couple it with the fact that we get a kind of vintage from a certain point of view line from Obi-1 here too because he says the truth is often what we make of it. You heard what you wanted to hear, believed what you wanted to believe.

That's when he's talking to Ezra. Right. Perspective. Constantly with Obi-1 we think about perspective. His perspective and how it shifts over time to a given idea, the way the perspective

varies from character to character and how much of their relationship to their past loss and grief. is shaping what they're aiming toward in the future. It's really, it's quite poignant. I don't know if you've heard this before, Mallory. I think I've, I think I'm just making it up on the spot here, but there's this idea that like Star Wars rhymes.

No, okay, so George Lucas's favorite thing to say about Star Wars right, and it rhymes. And often in classic, you know, like Obi-Win-Kinobie when we meet him in the original trilogy is a classic iconic archetype, the mentor, part of the hero's journey, all of that stuff. But what's usually true in classic literature is that you have foils, twin sons is the name of this episode, right? And so you can think of especially, you know, when you watch Phantom Menace, you can think of Maul and Obi-Wan, the two apprentices as like these foils, these twin sons of each other. But what's true about Star Wars is it's never that simple because these things just cycle forward and cycle forward, right? So like, then Anakin and Obi-Wan because

come like foils of you know it's just like it's it's all constantly moving there's nothing simple about it but this empathy at the end of at the end of it all this empathy that obi one has for the person who has taken everything from him has taken setteen has taken quagon from him you know strong strong stuff yeah it takes a certain quality of a person and a certain heart and an amount of time spent reflecting, which is part of what we're going to get to see him do here to be able to reach that point of not just pity, which I do think he also feels,

but as you said, empathy. And one of the things that's so amazing and interesting about the Moll-O-B-1 relationship is like they're both actually opposed to many of the same things by this point. You know, Mall is, he's not a, Palpatine's apprentice anymore long, long ago are those days, right? He and Palpatine are also at war. But that doesn't mean he can find common ground.

And for Obi-1, I think he spends a lot of time thinking about what common ground looks like and the mistakes that he and the other Jedi made in really viewing that idea quite rigidly. All right. Did you do your number six? Is that your number six? Okay. So time for my number five. What do you got? It's early on the list for this.

So I will not fault you if you're like, I got this higher. But it's, dun-d-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. Okay, great. We'll talk about that. I was tempted to put my my mall obi duels back to back, but I had to have it higher. I had to have it higher. Okay. This episode is brought to by Paramount Plus. Beth and Rip are back in a new series, Dutton Ranch. Kelly Riley and Colehous are returned, and this time they're taking on Texas.

As Beth and Rip build a future together, peace will have to wait as they face corruption, danger, and a ruthless rival ranch, willing to protect its secrets at all costs. Legacy is a beautiful thing, but only if it survives. Dutton Ranch starring Colehouser, Kelly Riley, Annette Benning and Ed Harris now streaming on Paramount Plus. here it is Joe. My number five.

Seteen. It's Sotene time. All right, quickly, quickly for people listening who don't know. Who is the Duchess Sateen? The Duchess Sistine. What we're talking about? Of Mandelor. Obi-Wan's great love.

And the love that they were never able to fully realize or enjoy, and it is really sad and tragic. She is a key figure in Clone Wars. And for my moment, I will, I will, say it was very difficult agonizing really to only put one sotene moment on my top 10. I wanted to put every sotene moment on my top 10 dazzled by your restraint, honestly. I limited myself to one, and I chose this one, both because it is my single favorite and the one that hits me the hardest, but also because it allows me to smuggle, to smuggle in some others

that helped us get to this point. So the moment I am choosing is, and again, we said spoilers, but, you know, really, spoiler. The Duchess Sateen dying in Obi-1's arms in the Clone Wars, season five, episode 16, the lawless. Remember, my dear Obi-1, always. This is... My personal power ranking is always

kind of evolving, depending on whether I'm re-watching Clone Wars or Rebels, but this is one of my single favorite installments of Star Wars, period. This is one of my favorite episodes of the Clone Wars and one of my favorite pieces of Star Wars. The culmination of Obi-1 and Satin's shared arc. By the way, I'm assuming this is the one that you mentioned

earlier when you said you knew I would have one on here that... All years baby. It's not that it doesn't matter to me. It just matters so much to you that I just wanted to be yours. Thanks, Belle. It is a, uh, not only a seismic moment in Obi-1 Canobie's life and a moment of real parallels for him and Anakin in terms of loss and love, but again, a way to shoehorn and everything else that leads up to it. So mentioned earlier that Disney plus UK Twitter watch list, this arc season five episodes 14 through 16 is also on that list. More mall in this sequence lots of mall.

Mall is essential to these episodes here and it's an essential wrong on the Obi-Mall ladder. There's also a thrilling mall. Palpatine duel in here. We got so much more. We got Mandelorian Civil War.

We've got Bocahont, we've got Death Watch, we've got the Dark Sabre Joe. It's chockful of Star Wars goodness. It's also chockful of Bain and Tears. Because in the Lawless, mall captures the team to lure Obi-1 to Mandelor

where he goes, despite the Jedi Council opting not to help. He pulls what I would like to call an Anakin Skywalker. Definitely an Anakin. It's partially a Quigon also, but absolutely an Anand as well. Indeed. But like I think with Quigon, because Quigon was his master, he just had a different relationship to Quigon's rebellion, whereas he was always spending so much time trying to convince Anakin to tow the line, you know?

He's certainly, it's the fact that he goes rogue here because it's what his heart tells him to. Again, another one of these moments where it's like, ah, if these two could have just had a beer and really hash it all out. Well, and this is such an interesting development of the anime series. Like, to give Obi-Wan Kenobi a love story makes, complicates the hard line that he takes with Anakin, right? Oh, yeah.

Why in those live action films are we not seeing? him offer any grain of, I understand what you're going through. It's just simply, Attic, you know you can't do this. You know what I mean? Like chiding him over and over again, lecturing him over and over again. I'll get to why I think that is. But I just think it's a really interesting aspect. Yeah.

And some of it is that the shows provide the time and space to explore that in the way that the movies can't. But then even in the show, like I mentioned earlier, that season six exchange in the Clovis arc, they're finding this kind of. common ground, but they can't then take it to that next logical step of, like, shared understanding and real synchronicity. It's, it's maddening. OG trilogy, Obi-1.

And I think he's still got that charm and that wit, as you mentioned earlier. But he's also, like, you know, he's just stiffer, real, real strict adherent. And I think the part of what I love so much about the Clone Wars part of the charm in that series is is that we get to see all of Obi-One's impulses and his desires and the way that he navigates the attachments that he feels in his life. Like, what is he going to do when his heart leads him to a place where he has to act alone, you know? And one of the things that I love the most about this is that he borrows Anakin's ship.

He flies the twilight, Anakin's personal ship, to get to Satine. It's just such a great little touch. And he arrives and he finds her and he says, I do my own bidding. He whips on his helmet and his hair's shaking. It looks great. It looks great. They embrace and he just looks so handsome

and his Mandalorian Super Commando Red armor that he's stolen. I cannot overstate how cool it is given all of the Obi-1 Anakin history to see Obi-1 doing his own thing here because he is in love with someone. Ultimately, though, this is not a happy tale. This is a tragic tale.

And I think in one of the irrefutable, saddest sequences in Star Wars history, Maul, taunting Obi-Wan about his fear and his anger. We get a classic dark side exchange between the two of them. Kill Sateen with the Dark Saper

in front of Obi-Wan and she dies in his arms as he cradles her and looks down on her and is welling up and he's crying. Sotene! And what does she say? With her final breath,

remember, my dear Obie. be one. I've loved you always. I always will. Or in the in the parlance of Bazlerman, I love you until my dying day. Yeah. Come what May. Yeah. It's a tremendous, tremendous pick. I love your love of a sateen. I never want to wet blanket anything, but I'm just going to, I'm going to, I'm going to take a page out of our colleague Vance notebook and say, summer of no expectations. We spent so much time when we were talking about Bubafet,

talking about how we expected Amelia Clark to appear at any given time. I just want to, like, for myself, set parameters of, like, if we do not get any setteen in flashback or otherwise, that is an expectation we are only setting ourselves up for. They have not promised that to us, right? This is the thing about Star Wars is we get so excited about wanting all these things.

And, like, just because a UK Twitter account says these Sotene arcs are important. They are important for who Obi-Wan is, right? Does that mean Sotene is going to be there? I would be thrilled if she was, but I just don't want to set myself up for disappointment if she's not. Do you know what I mean? I'm being very cautious.

Yeah, I'm with you. I'm certainly not expecting it. I mean, it is, of course, tempting to say, oh, my God, two of these three Clone Wars arcs featured on this graphic involved Sateen. What does it mean? Are we going to see her? Are we going to see flashbacks like Dare to Dream?

I would love it. I would be thrilled if we got live action Satine and Obi-1. It would be one of the joys of my life as a fan. But I'm certainly not expecting it. I think what you said is exactly right. These unlock something really core about our larger understanding of who Obi-1 is and of the events that have shaped his life. And I think, tragically, of the loss, the series of losses that have defined his life, Quigon, Satin, Anakin's fault, the fall, the fall of the Jedi Order, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And the way that that fear of not being able to protect. people he cared about or felt a compulsion to help guide will be leading and influencing the decisions that he makes as he seeks to protect Luke, as he seeks to protect any other force users as the inquisitors are hunting them because that's the whole thing with the inquisitors. They want to find force users. We've talked about this before in our trailer preview. Our assumption is that they're on Tattooing B that we know from all the trailers. They're talking about Obi-1.

They're there for Obi-1, but that will put Luke at risk. What else is Obi-1 going to think about? Who else might be at risk? will there be connections to the wider Jedi order and his desire to protect and save and not fail, not fail. If Luke is in danger, Leah is certainly in danger. Exactly.

Call up our guy, bail organa. Have a chat, you know? Jimmy Smiths, looking great. I just, this is where I'll quickly smuggle the season two arc. Like, I think that the Lawless is so powerful because of all the moments in Clone Wars between Obi-1 and Satine that lead up to that. and I really cannot believe that I didn't actually have this as a separate item on my top 10,

but again had to be disciplined, had to hit all of these different beats here. The Mandalore plot and Voyage of Temptation arc, episodes 12 through 16 in season two, which just fantastically good. Really key Mandalorian canon, too, in terms of the overall state of Star Wars right now, I'd recommend watching it independent of Obi-1. Right. Home to one of my truly all-time favorite Star Wars moments, which is in episode 13, Voyage of Temptation,

when Sotene, who's in peril, confesses her love to Obi-Wan, and he says, Satin, this is hardly the time or the place. And then she gives him this look, and he just melts. And he says, all right, had you said the word, I would have left the Jedi order. We cannot overstate the magnitude of that line for Obi-1's overall arc and for, frankly, Star Wars history. Obi-Wan Kenobi would have left the Jedi order

for love. The one that the thing that he and so many other people, Jedi, kept telling Anakin not to do. And Luke, in other ways, think about the Degaba exchange between Force Ghosts Obi-1 and Yoda and Luke in terms of just going to help friends, right? The dangers of attachment.

The tragedy of these shared tendencies becoming divisive forces instead of unifying forces. And I think I have some stuff in the live action that I'm going to talk about that I think supports that idea around Obi-Wan. That, like, I think he thinks he's evolved beyond attachments more than he actually is.

Do you know what I mean? All right. He's a person. Number four. Number four. And this is where I think we can go back to your forest ghost thing, which is Obi-one talking to Luke about his father in a new hope. This is also my number four. When he gives him Anakin's lightsaber?

Yeah. This is my number four. Let me tell you why it's my number four. And it's because... So this is a slight retcon, right? Is that Obi-Wan, as played by All right, in this scene, talking to Luke Skywalker, talks about Anakin, talks about Luke's father. And then he says, Vader, you know, Vader killed your father, right?

And then later, as you say, in the 14th, Ghost conversation, he says, you know, from a certain point of view. We'll talk about truths and points of view. That is a bit of a George Lucas retcon because it was not originally intended that Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader would be the same person. He decided that later. So this is sort of like yada, yada, yada from a certain point of view. This makes sense.

However, retcons exist, but I think this can also be an informative insight into Obi-Wan's character. this idea that, and I'm hoping, as we know Hayden's in this, it's going to be explored and nuanced. But I think this is a big mistake that Obi-1 makes in a new hope. We think of Obi-1 and a new hope as, like, you know, very, very, very evolved. But he's still messy, he's still human and he's still failing in certain things. And I think this way in which, again, I know it's a retconner to rewrite,

but the way in which he's thinking of Anakin and Vader as two different people, Yeah. Contrasting with the journey that Luke goes on to find the Antiken that still exists inside of Vader, I think is such an important part of the mentorship that Obi-1 gives Luke and the ways in which Luke evolves beyond that mentorship into another thing. And the thing that Luke has in common with Anakin, which is this emotion-based, humanity-based sort of thing, and the ways in which Obi-1 has put sort of rigid logic lines up around his heart. heart throughout his life. And I think that I just love that he's so wrong about that. And it circles back to Padme saying, as she's dying, there is still good in him, right? They're still good

in him. And for some reason, and I can talk about this a little higher on my list, but for some reason, by the time we get to him in a new hope, Obi-1 is not in a place where he can receive that, is just walled. Anakin's dead. This is only Vader is here now. Do you know what you mean? It's just something that I'm chewing over. I don't know if that'll be sort of taken apart by the Obi-1 series.

It might be, but it's just, I think it's a really interesting moment. I'm curious about your number four and also your Force Ghost conversation. Yeah. Four and seven here. I'm so glad that you said all of that because I agree. And it was really something that stood out like starkly isolating these moments. moments for this pod. That's present in both my number four and my number seven.

I'll go back to the Force Ghost thing in a minute just to talk about the initial lightsaber handoff and teaching Luke about the force and all of these things that happened in a new hope. I mean, you know, you could pick a hundred different Obi-1 moments in a new hope. Obviously, there are so many iconic ones. I'm going with the 32 minute, 35-second in Obi-1's old Ben Kenobi's hut. The exchange technically is my moment here. Like, obviously, I just can never talk about new,

without remembering that Luke said, Obi-Wan Ginobe. I wonder if he means old Ben Kenobi. IG, I wonder, Luke, do you think? Never miss an opportunity to reflect on that. We could have picked the initial, hello there, in the OG trilogy before we get the U-N version. We could have picked the, that's a name I've not heard.

long time, a long time. A long time. Could have picked the canteena sequences. You know, these aren't the droids you're looking for. Retched hive of scum and fility, the arm slice. Oh, this is a classic smuggle. This is like a marathon smuggle that you're doing. Later, later on the Falcon, you could have picked the actual training with the training

remote sequence. I do love that sequence because the extra dynamic of Han, you know, shitting on the hokey religions and ancient weapons, as he calls it. And then you get these injections of, of, of, wisdom from Obi-1, you've taken your first step into a larger world. In my experience, there's no such thing as luck.

Your eyes can deceive you don't trust them, etc., etc., etc. But that first exchange of substance about Anakin between Luke and Obi-Wan, it is difficult not to really get hung up on, as you noted, Rick Conner, otherwise, the partial truths again.

and you mix that in with the lore, the injection of lore for Luke and for us as viewers. You know, this is when we're learning about lightsaber's. Hearing of Obi-1 to explain what a lightsaber is for the first time. He's talking about what the forces, the force is what gives a Jedi his power. Like so many of these moments that shape our understanding of what Star Wars is and of how the mythology functions.

Obviously, there's the Leia variable too. But then you get these other, little elements like him saying your uncle wouldn't allow it. He feared you might follow old Obi-1 on some damn full idealistic crusade like your father did. That feels like very key set up for the, the, oh, and Obi-1 tension that we've already seen in the trailer. So all of that is just great. But I'll, I'll hit on what you were just focusing on in the Force Ghost element, which was my number seven, because I'm so deeply struck revisiting that in Return of the Jedi. This is after Yoda has died.

Obi-1 is just so deeply flawed. So many of the things that he is saying to Luke in this moment, on the one hand, of closure and of revelations and epiphanies, is so firmly anchored in that, so what I told you was true from a certain point of view idea. And I love thinking about this

because it's not just about the facts. It's about the emotional investment and understanding and how the characters relate to each other. Like, when he says to him, he's more machine than man now, twisted and evil. And Lucas is just saying, I can't kill my father. I can't do it. And Obi-Man's reply to that is, then the emperor has already won? He's wrong.

Like, how cool that he couldn't be more wrong. So wise and so wrong. Exactly. This gets to the core of why Obi-Wan is such a fascinating character. I have more to say higher on my list, but I think it's more. really, really important to note that as a mentor, like, because the thing about Gandalf is like such a good comp for Obi-1, the role he plays in the original trilogy, right? But Gandalf is never wrong, almost never wrong, right? And I love, it's so much messier that Obi-1 is frequently

wrong. And that the mess, like, specifically connects to his own grief and his own trauma. Like, when he says, bury your feelings down deep, Luke, they do you credit, but they can be made to serve the Emperor, barrier feelings down deep down. And of course, like, this is the thing about Star Wars. Our enhanced understanding has come, as you noted, after that story was written, we learned what came before. All of the times that he feels like his affection or his feelings compromised him or allowed him to fail other people in some way. It's like a very, like tough stuff for our guy, old Ben Kenobi here. But the product of his grief, his isolation, his own feelings of like really sincere failure and regret,

the manifest in the wrong advice and the wrong lessons. And I just love that because, like, as you said, part of what makes him so compelling across the installments in the years in the renditions is that he's never been perfect, actually. He's this highly capable Jedi Knight,

but he's also a person who makes a ton of mistakes and lets a lot of people down and often feels that he's let himself down. And we see a lot of that here in that Return of the Jedi Force Ghost sequence. And then there's all the, just, you know, the way the Force Ghost canon manifests story after story would,

which is also just very fun. But for me, it's that thematic dissonance as well. So I love that. Number three? I have a really, to this theme, and obviously you might have this higher. Okay. But this is a portion of the showdown between Anakin and Obi-Wan on most far. Higher on my list.

This is where I have, though, an item that you have already selected. This is where I have Obi-1 versus Mal in their first duel in Phantom Menace. Oh, great. So let's hear it. Let's hear it, Joe. Okay. So the one thing I know going into this Obi-Wan series is something that the head writer of the series J.B. Harold told me, which is this moment, this key moment in duel of the fate. So something we know about Quigon and Obi-Wan is that they fight beautifully in tandem, right?

We see them fight beautifully in tandem. It's something that Anakin and Obi-Won have to work on. They do not fight well together in Attack of the Clones, and they do for Revenge of the Sith. But it's only by being forcibly separated by this force field at the beginning of the fight and duel the fates or midway through, right? That everything falls apart because they're not together. They're separated.

And as they go these force fields, genius part of this fight, we see Quigon sit and meditate and we see Obi-1 hopping from foot to foot anxious to get in on the fight, right? This massive contrast between apprentice and master. So that hop I've been told

is like a key part of the OB-1 character and the reason I think and the way that that hop contrasts with exactly what we were talking about in terms of like Obi-1's not someone who like wants to rush into a fight Obi-1 is the negotiator. Obi-1 is like all of this. I think that speaks to that attachment question, that real original wound for Obi-Wan Kenobi is the death of Quigon Jin, and his attachment of Quigon as his master, right?

An attachment that I think goes beyond what the Jedi Council approved relationship between Jedi Masters, you know what I mean, a practicing master is. And I think the way in which Obi-Wan, who usually fights defensively fights offensively as soon as that. Forcefield comes up and he starts hacking down on mall as opposed to blocking. I think this is Obi-1's most dangerous attachment is to Quigon because I think it's, I mean, I don't think that's an original thought, but it's what leads him to defy the council in saying that Anakin needs to be trained. And I just think that that connection comes down to that desperate impatience. behind a force field of the thing that's most important to him,

his father figure, is in trouble. And so there's so much to love about dual the fates, but that hop, I think, is the thing that I just wanted to drill down on. What do you got to say? What a great insight. And, yeah, again, like the, I'm thinking a lot about the dissonance that's core to his character,

because on the one hand, we've talked a lot today about how patience defines him, how being on the defensive, not the offensive, defines him, but how much of that is just a response to thinking back to what happened, maybe when he was too late or when he rushed or which it is actually at a given moment. And then what happens if he's not on time and how that might influence what he does to try to protect Luke or anyone else. I mean, you know, deeply flawed movie, but nevertheless features one of the great

goals and sequences in Star Wars history here, certainly. I think that's my number one, actually. Your fatal, yeah. Yeah. It's really good. I mean, it's certainly... The Williams score is, you know, drumming and the surging dual-of-the-fates score just is... And the design, you know, say what you will about Mall and you can say whatever you want about Mall,

but like, Ray Park in the makeup doing the fighting, just incredible... The choreography is awesome. And also you just have all the colors, like the Quigon's green and Obi-1's blue and Maul's red and the contrast of all of these different tendencies and spheres of forcedom. And, you know, again, I've talked about mall a lot today, so I won't harp on that here. But like, Obi-1 does beat him here. You know, he slices him in half. And I think that besting a Sith is pretty notable in terms of leveling up and leveling up out of necessity.

Leveling up because you have to, because the people who were supposed to do something, we're supposed to make sure something happen are not able to do it anymore. And then reaching that really rarefied Jedi and Star Wars air. you know, obviously, like you said, the death of Quigon is this wound that he carries with him forever. And whether it manifests in reaching out to Quigon to learn how to become a force ghost or making decisions to try to honor his memory or doing things differently because he thinks it wasn't good enough or worrying about how he's failed him. That just remains an ever-present thing. Those final words, he is the chosen one. He will bring balance, train him.

it's it's the principle around which Obi-1's entire life orients from that moment forward. And so I think that this duel is, of course, a show of ability, but also this deeply, deeply emotional moment where he's fighting for something bigger than himself. He's fighting for the order. He's fighting for the Republic, but he's fighting for something deeply personal, this relationship and this person that means so much to him. So it's in that way, I think, all of the best of Obi-1 and all of the different aspects of who Obi-1 is in. in one moment. And it sets into motion not only the defining events of his life, but honestly, of the history of the galaxy. This could have been number one. Easily. What do you have at number two? This is actually tough for me to talk about slightly out of order. I'm confident you don't have

on your list because it's my last, it's my last defiance of the Jedi Council. I'm going rogue. This is from, this is my favorite line in all of Star Wars. And I think it applies so beautifully to Obi-Wan Kenobi. And it is what Yoda says. I'm going to cry. It's what, it's what Yoda says to Luke in The Last Jedi, which is... Strength, mastery, but weakness, folly. Failure also. Yes, failure most of all. The greatest teacher failure is. Greatest teacher failure is. So where do we meet Obi-1 Kenobi in this series at the height of his failure? We're going to talk about Mustafa. after, right? But he literally says, like, it failed you, right? His desperate failure, what can you learn from that Obi-One that can take you into the original trilogy and give

Luke what he needs to start on his journey? So what is, what is failure going to teach Obi-Wan Canobi in this show? Something that's so, again, to talk about the flaws of Obi-1 Canobee, you know, Quigon says you've been a great apprentice. we know that Obi-Oen-Kon-Konobi is incredibly skilled in all these different ways. But not all great students become great teachers. And Obi-1's not a great teacher in the prequel series. So what can he learn from that failure? How can he look at a duel that he failed and do it again differently this time?

Joe, I love that. And I would also, it makes me think of the other wisdom that Yoda imparts there, we are what they grow beyond. And so maybe one of the ways that we and hopefully Obi-Wan, as he processes all of this, can start to reconcile that feeling of failure, that he wasn't enough as a teacher, that he didn't do what he promised that he would, is that it's not ultimately his responsibility. Like, as a person, all you can do is try your best and you can't control the choices other people make. And sometimes they grow beyond you in ways that are positive and impactful. and sometimes they grow beyond the way that you tried to help and guide them.

And that doesn't mean Obi-1 didn't fail. It doesn't mean he didn't make mistakes. But Anakin's decisions ultimately are not completely Obi-1's fault. They're not. And the fact that he will, the way that he will come to process that, I think one of the things we both find so interesting

is that it seems like, based on where we get in the original trilogy, he swings to, okay, well, he's just evil. He's evil, right? And where is the nuance? Where are the subtleties in between? Where is the ability to say the person who I care about and love and feared for so long that I failed is still in there? Was the only way that he was able to find any peace to say, well, that isn't that person at all? And how, like, bizarre for him to be able to find empathy for Maul in that final duel and not be able to find it for Anakin?

Do you know? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the blame and the guilt that he carries becomes that force field in a way, right? Yeah. Separating him from his ability to really process everything

and find that understanding. It's just too painful. When he looks at Anakin on Mustafa and walks away from him, there's disgust on his face. They're shock. But there's this absolute unceasing despair. Like, how could this be the person

who I've just spent the last years of my life developing a relationship with it's closer than any other relationship for either of them other than the ones that you just noted

are their original wounds. It's very painful and it all leads to my number two which is Obi-1 sacrificing himself in the final deal with Vader and a new hope. Is this on your list?

Bizarrely it's not. Okay. So a new hope, this is the sequence in question is about an hour and a half M. You know, truly iconic. I mean, it's like bizarre

that this isn't on my list. No, I love it. It's, this is great. Abort the Death Star, I've ever heard of it, you know? Two long-time partners turned foes sensing, sensing what they're building toward. This is one of the things I love about of Vader

telling his, man, I sense something. A presence I've not felt. And now, Joe, every time we watch a new hope for the rest of our lives, we'll think a presence I've not felt since the, events of the Disney Plus series, Obi-1 Canobi. And that's one of the great ways that Star Wars can evolve over time. Honestly, I think that, you know, there's been a lot of debate about that. Like, that's not the kind of thing that bothers me or feels like negatively wrecked Connie. I like that it speaks to,

it connects to a lot of what you were saying before about that, Obi-One thinking about Anakin and Vader and Lucas's vision for the story. Like the way that this can continue to expand and evolve and we can fill in these gaps and hopefully it all makes sense at the end of the day. I think for me, if it makes emotional sense at the end of the day, then I'm fine with it.

Then you're awkward with it. The force will be with you always, Obi-1 says, to Luke before they separate. And he knows. He knows what he's walking toward. He knows he must face Vader. He knows he must face Anakin. And Star Wars duels have gotten,

as we've talked about a lot today, like so advanced, so heightened, so rapid, so enthralling, that revisiting the scene can feel like almost pedestrian on a rewatch. They're just sort of gently prodding each other with sticks. But it rules. Like, on the one hand, it's just you remember that this was 1977,

and the thrill of it, the imagination on display has not diminished over time. But I think beyond the visuals, the weight that it bears for the story is just so supreme. And the tension is so keen. And on the one hand, it feels inextricable from how we think about these characters

in Star Wars. But on the other hand, as we've just been discussing, it feels really like separate and apart, actually, from a lot of the entrenched perspective that we associate with the characters and their relationships. And I just think that's so fascinating. So when they start to walk toward each other and you hear Vader's breathing and the music kicks in and we see the Sabres ignite, red against blue, we get, you know, one of the most famous lines in Star Wars history, right? Vader saying, I've been waiting for you, Obi-1. We meet again at last. The circle is now complete when I left you. I was but the learner. Now I am the master.

We are about to get a really key installment that updates our understanding of when... When I left you on the Obi-Wan Disney Plus series, I was but the learner. When I left you on the streamer. And then Obi-Wan replies only a master of evil, Darth. And it's like exactly what we were just discussing, where that feels so pointed and reductive

in a way that feels actually, really different from the way I think about Obi-1 and a lot of his perspective. And so how he gets to that point is just such an incredible thing. And they're fighting and they're blaze-meet and they're circling each other. And I love the circling. It feels so thematically apt. And Vader's talking shit saying your powers are weak, old man. But Obi-1 knows. He knows the way to really get under that blistered, burn, scarred skin. And it's by saying, you can't win, Darth. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine. And then he sees Luke.

He sees that Luke and Coe have appeared. He sees that Luke is watching. And he smirks. And he shuts his eyes and he raises his blade. And he succumbs. He allows Vader to deal the killing stroke. Now, we learn he is trained. He is becoming a force ghost.

We hear the voice very soon. We learn, you know, Obi-1's a to the well-organized. his mind, death is but the next great adventure guy. He's got a lot of wisdom, hard one wisdom. And I think this sequence really showcases despite the master of evil binary, it does showcase that knowledge that Obi-1 has worked so hard to gain. And I just love how this lands so fully the first time you ever see it in a vacuum when you don't know anything else about the history or who these characters are, and then it just gains more and more layers of meaning

over time as you see more shared history. Between them, it's just increasingly tragic. And I can't wait to watch this again after we watch Obi-1 and see how it changes still further. So that's my number two. My fondest hope is that it still makes sense, you know? I think it will.

I think we will say, wow, man, this is how we now have a greater understanding for how Anakin could actually have killed Obi-1 Kenobi his one-time master, mentor, and best friend, and also how Obi-1 Kenobi could have worked his way toward that peace and clarity after a lifetime of pain and guilt. That's my hope. I'm so excited to do this with you. All right. So your number one is Moistafar. It is. It is indeed. We're going to talk about Mustafa in a second, so I'll just do my number one really quickly, which is, I think, the answer to my number two, what the greatest teacher failure is. So what is

Obi-1 going to learn? You go all the way back to the Phantom Menace, right? And when Quigon is imparting, like, his final lessons throughout that film to his apprentice, he says, be mindful of the living force, young Padawan is something that he says to Obi-Wan. And then

a different section, Obi-Wan goes, do not defy the council, not again, right? And he says, I shall do what I must, Obi-Wan. So this can't, you've alluded to it a couple times with this contrast between the codified Jedi Council and then the individual relationship with the Force, which is a constant conversation in Star Wars, this idea that like Obi-Wan,

after all that, after the fact that Quigon is out here, like, being a great Jedi, but not necessarily following everything the Council has to say, Obi-Wan of the prequels joins the council. And oftentimes the worst conflicts that he has with Anakin are related to him following orders from the council, right? Relaying orders. Saying things to Anakin, he doesn't even necessarily want to say because this is what Yoda, you know,

and Windu who are incredibly wise, but this is what they have decided is right, right? So all of that brings us to a new hope. In Musafar, and we'll talk about that in a second, you know, Quigon says, I shall do what I must, Obi-Won, and in the battle, in the final showdown between Anakin and Obi-1 and Musafar,

Obi-Won says, I will do what I boast. But even more importantly, I think, is in a new hope when Luke is saying, I can't go with you across the galaxy, man, I'm just a moisture farmer. What the hell? And Obi-1 says, you must do what you feel is right, of course. You must do what you feel is right. And I think it speaks to a really, really important evolution. Like, as you said, Obi-1's not perfect by a new hope. He's still making mistakes all the way up until the end of the original trilogy. Even after death, he's making mistakes. But that trust issue, that fear, that fear that comes from the death of Quigon, right? Quigon dies. He is forced to train Anakin, even though he doesn't think he should, even though he doesn't feel prepared to.

He has to do this because it's his master's dying wish. but the fear that he still carries from losing his master, the trust issues that he has around Anakin, that poisons even some of the most beautiful moments of their relationship, the fact that we get to a new hope, and he says, you must do what you feel is right, of course, to Luke, rather than all the lecturing that we see him give Anakin in the original trilogy. I think it's just such an important, it speaks to like, you know,

Obi-1 defying orders and going to Satin. to all these things that we've been talking about. I think it's a really important evolution of his character. And it means trusting other people means trusting yourself also. And so I think he's going to come out. He has to come out of Revenge of the Sith not trusting himself, right? I let everyone down. This is all my fault.

I let everyone down. And something is going to happen to him emotionally so that he can get to where he is in a new hope. That's my number one. Beautiful. But let's talk about lava. Can I actually, can I just like bleed into what I want to say about Mustafa because it's not the whole thing. But I think the biggest failure that Obi-1 makes is an accident that a lot of parents make,

which is to treat your kid like your friend, right? And so when he says to Anakin, you were my brother. It is such a key mistake that Obi-1 made. That Faloni has talked about, that everyone has talked about, right? It's like, Annaecu is already a little older than he should have been, right, when he gets pulled into all of this. Obi-1 does not want to train him, but he's like, we are bonded by this loss that we share, which is my father figure, Quigon. But instead of becoming a father figure to Anakin, which is what Anakin really needs, he becomes a brother to him. And there's power in being the older brother.

but it's not what Anna Cid needed. And that's how Palpatine, of course, is able to slip in to the old father figure role and dismantle. So just to say, like, you were my brother is such a key part of that final interaction, which has so many key parts to it. But I think that that is a really strong one, you know? Man, that is so interesting because I think I feel the opposite, even though I acknowledge that you're right. Tell me why. I think clearly you're right and the logic of that is airtight. I think that...

So for me, part of the reason that this is my number one and there are a lot is that you're my brother line. You were my brother, Anakin. I loved you. George Lucas will say often, Star Wars was always supposed to be the tragedy of Anakin Skywalker. And I always like try to remember that and think about that. when we're talking a lot about Luke, who is, like, not actually the main character of Star Wars, right?

The through line of Star Wars to me is not the Skywalker's. It is all of the characters, so many of the characters that we care about deeply, not allowing themselves to really just love each other, you know? And that love can manifest in a lot of different ways. And you and I have talked about before, and I have no doubt that we will again as we break down Obi-1 and a future. Star Wars shows that they draw important, crucial distinctions when it comes to Anken's fall and other moments as well between attachment and love.

Even like the line, you know, we discussed earlier where Obi-1 says these feelings are natural. It's not that you can't love, it's not that you can't care. We hear the characters talk many times about how you can. It's when that becomes possessive. It's when the control, the fearful around losing someone, right? And how will life go on? I mean, let me just say something really quickly, and it's this. I don't think there's anything wrong with Obi-Wan Kenobi loving Anakin Skywalker as a brother.

I think that's a beautiful relationship. And there are parts of Revenge of the Sith when you see that brotherhood really thrumming in such a beautiful way. But what I think is true is that Anakin also really needed a mentor. Do you know? And I think, I think Obi-1 could have been a brother to him if someone would be. else were training him as well. Do you know? Yeah, I don't disagree. I think like one of the things Anakin needed was someone to say, it's okay if you love Padme, let's talk about it. I think he needed someone to say, and, you know, one of the things I really like about the Osco novels that Obi-1 actually

reflects on this particular failure, you actually can go back to see your mother. That's okay, too. It does not make you less capable of being a Jedi and helping other people. Maybe, in fact, it makes you more capable of helping and protecting other people if you maintain the relationships in your life that teach you how to love, that teach you what it means to care about other people. What I love about what you're highlighting here is that they met in this middle ground

and neither of them had exactly the thing they needed, but it could have been enough for both of them if there weren't so many factors in the order and in the strictures that made everybody think it had to only be one way. And that's the thing I always circle back to with the Jedi is their rigidity is the thing.

Palpatine, yes, is the puppeteer who is moving all of the pieces on the chestboard. He's exploiting those flaws that you're talking about. Exactly. He is exploiting this rigidity and this inflexibility. And so Obi-1 still needs that father, as you've noted many times. Like he is desperately missing the thing that Quigon provided. He can't really be that fully for Anakin because he didn't have that himself. And this becomes a cycle.

Could they have been something else for each other and embraced it instead of fearing it or resenting it? Does Anakin have fewer moments where he wonders why Obi-One is holding him back or thinks about the jealousy if they're not in a strict kind of father-son or master-person? or master Padawan relationship, but our colleagues. Bro. Bros. Bros. Best of bros.

Best of bros. Yeah. So I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. And again, I think the logic that you laid out is very, very sound. It makes me sad. Like, it makes me really sad that this couldn't have been,

that this is something that they should feel like was a failure, I guess, this specific aspect of their history. Yeah. And I just, yeah, I want to make it really, like, Loving Anakin is not the failure. It's that trying to do that and lecture him at the same, you know, teach him at the same time. It gives us a hell of a duel, though.

It really does. I love, I love, I love, I love, I mean, I love Revenge of the Sith. And I, I unironically love this entire closing sequence, which does, you know, has generated many memes in gifts over the years and is, you know, pretty silly in certain spots. but I find to be absolutely riveting and something that I enjoy returning to time and time again and will for the rest of my life. There are too many times they have Steven's sight here. I mean, they cut in and out of so many different sequences. Start around the one hour, 43 minute mark when Anakin's running to Padmae's ship, everything unfolds from from there. The way that Anakin's jealousy and desire to control that lust for power that misguides and corrupts him that we were just talking about,

your new empire. I love that part so much. The horror and the disgust that Obi-1 feels when he sees this, when he sees the way that the boy that he, what the boy that he loved has actually proven capable of when he watches what he does to Padmei. You turned her against me.

You have done that yourself. I fucking love that moment. I mean, we were before we started recording today, all of us on Zoom with Arjuna, Jomey and Steve and Ben. We were just reciting this entire sequence quite long. Word for word. Word, all of us collectively, from memory,

because these lines are just inextricable from both of their character arcs, their shared arc. And I think that while the prequels often fairly, you know, get knocked for the rough dialogue, there are some actual bangers in this doll. There really are. I love what Obi-1 says,

you have allowed this dark lord to twist your mind until now. Until now you've become the very thing you swore to destroy. And you mentioned archetypes earlier and how much of Star Wars is archetypal. And that is a very quintessential idea, right? We create our own demons, the old Tony Starkism. Like we become the thing that we fear. We become the thing that we sought to stop. And again, there's this circling, the way that they circle each other, the way that

they circle the truth. when Obi-1 has this moment of complete clarity, it is the iconic. If you're not with me, then you're my enemy, only a Sith deals in absolutes. I will do what I must. Lightsaber draw,

you will try, boom moment, which I just love so much. Mallory, Mallory, can you give me, you will try again? Can you give me that? You will try.

You will try. You will try. I just love this. Hayden, my guy. The fight is a marvel. You know, you talked earlier about how they're actually out of sync with each other earlier in the prequels when they're trying to fight side by side. One of the things that I love about the Musifar duel is that they are mirror images when they are fighting each other. And part of that is just the colors, right?

We're not in blue against red yet. It's blue on blue. And that really heightens the painful, it's this painful visual reminder of what was lost, which I love. But they can anticipate each other's movements. they know what to expect because they've spent more time with the other person than anyone else in their lives. And then we get the absolute just hammer. I have failed you, Anakin. I have failed you.

And to swing, I think this is a little microcosm this moment of a lot of what we were talking about because that's the real heart. Yeah. The real pain. And then Anakin says, I should have known the Jedi were plotting to take over. And Obi-1 says, Anakin, Chancellor Belvedere is evil. That kills me. Just really putting it all out there right there. From my point of view, the Jedi are evil.

So Anakin is sharing the Obi-1 from a certain point of view idea. Full Obi-Wi. And then what does Obi-1 say? Well, then you are lost. And so we get that swing. We get the swing from the pain and the heart and the fear and the resentment and the regret into there's nothing else to do here. Well, and I think the best part of. all of that, all of this that you're describing, that you're so beautifully describing here is like,

remind me, are you the older sibling or the younger sibling? Youngest. Yeah. You and I are youngest siblings. And I don't know if this is your experience, but my every single fight I've ever had with my sister, my older sister, has been this fight where I have been wildly emotionally out of control and she is obnoxiously in control, you know? And so the fact that like, you know, you and his yelling.

some of these lines, but mostly Obi-1 has the high ground, like, in terms of I'm in control here. Yeah, and you are out of control. And so to make it a sibling fight on top of everything else is such a beautiful part of that, Mustafa. Have you ever said to your sister, this is the end for you, my sister?

That one kills me. This is the end for you, my master. No, I'm just going to, like, go text that to her, though. My God. And then, of course, we get it's over, Anakin, you know, the warning. This is, you know what I love about the high ground moment? Obviously, this is, this is probably one of the most oft quoted moments from the prequels. I have the high ground.

You underestimate. Don't try it. Obi-1 is still, Joe, here. Still trying to guide him. Still trying to teach him, even after he has accepted what must unfold. He can't really give up. He can't really stop trying to lead him to a different outcome. But Anakin's hubris, his endless pursuit of more, his unflinching belief that he can solve at all,

is the contrast to Obi-1's patience to his careful nature to those defensive tendencies we've talked about. And that contrast for all of their partnership moments, that contract is just at the four here and just the heartache too, you know, severed limbs. One other, one other, free, freely screaming. You know, just cooking in the lava. Fire. One other, you were the chosen one is one of the thing that I want to zero in on because that goes to like what's going on with Anakin. That hubris, chosen one is such a fucking toxic thing to put on anyone ever.

To put on Harry Potter, to put on Anakin Skywalker, et cetera, et cetera. How did Anakin get here? There's a million different roads and paths. But part of it, it all actually goes back to Quigod, who is again. a human with a lot of flaws himself putting this on this kid and taking him from his home, you know? Joe, it's a great point and it connects to your opening point because what lines are, this is probably my, if I had to pick a moment in the moment,

this is probably my favorite one. And it is, I think, the most essential in terms of the spirit of the exercise today. What is the you were the chosen one line right next to? It's next to the you were my brother exchange, right? It goes, you were the chosen one. it was said that you would destroy the Sith, not join them, bring balance to the force, not leaving in darkness. I hate you.

You were my brother, Anakin. I loved you. And so all of those threads tie together in that one tragic moment. And then what does he do? He picks up the saber. And I love that too because, on the one hand, pretty fucked up to just leave him there to burn and melt and scream and squeal and we're mere moments away in the film from the lowering of the helmet and the first intake and outtake of the mechanical breath.

But he doesn't actually deal a fatal blow. He can't bring himself to do that. And in some ways, it's crueler and worse to leave him like this. And certainly... Worse for the galaxy. He spawns exactly a lot more regret and feelings of failure over what lived on and what unfolded from that moment, though it does ultimately lead to a moment of redemption. A lot of pain and misery between now and then, certainly.

But I love that he picks up the saber because of everything that we already talked about and what it will unlock for Luke and allow for Luke in his path. But because I think it symbolizes that he can't quite leave, despite what we talked about earlier, where it's just, there is no Anakin, it's just Vader, it's just evil incarnate, he holds on to what Anakin was to him when Anakin was at his best. And he carries that memory with him alongside the despair.

And it's just one of the, you know, really one of the defining sequences in all of Star Wars. So much builds up to it. so much stems from it. It's the ever-present ground, really, in Star Horse. We would be lost without it. Guess what, Mallory? Star Wars is good. I love it. I can't wait for this show. Me too. We've gone so long. Do you have any honorable mentions that you wanted to quickly shout out before we bring on Ben for some reading recos? No, I want to hear what Ben has to say. I'll limit myself to just one, which is just to say that I can't believe we didn't talk about Ventress. So I'll have Ventress here. I think the reason Ventress didn't make the...

Jomey also can't believe you didn't talk about interest. I think it's just because it's all of the flirtation and the vibe and energy across all of their interactions. It's hard to zero in on one specific moment. I think if we had to pick one, it would be from season four, episode 22 of Clone Wars Revenge, where they team up. And they're both using the Red Sabres. And we get that great. What a lovely sight to wake up to. Don't flatter yourself, Kanobe, you were never much to look at, especially now, exchange.

Those two definitely needed to fuck. It's great stuff. Check out the Ventures episodes if you haven't. Ringverse contains adult content. All right, let's chat with Ben. This episode is brought to you by Borris Head. What if we told you the taste of deep fried turkey is now available at your local deli?

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to share with us his three novel and comics moments from the vast ocean of OB-1 literary possibilities. Ben Limburg. Welcome back. Joanna and Mallory, we meet again at last. I haven't sensed your presences at the same time since the book of Bubba-Fat finale. Welcome back to Tatooey, Ben Lindberg. I'm not that old, but I am sort of a strange hermit, so it fits. He wasn't that old either, you know? No, that's true. I do come bearing recommendations. And first let me say that if you're trying to cram to prepare for the series, I do have good news, which is that the required reading list isn't actually that long. My main recommendations are all things you could read before Friday without disrupting

the rest of your life because there's a lot of now non-canonical material from before Disney reset the Star Wars timeline in 2014, including a whole book called Canobi that was one of the last one's published in the old continuity. And it's possible that some of that could still serve as inspiration for this series, but we are focusing on current canon today. And there hasn't been that much published about the period preceding this series, which is set 10 years after episode three, nine years before episode four. I was just looking at the Wikipedia page. Shout out all the fine writers and editors at Wikipedia who make our jobs and lives easier. And to put it into perspective, that whole page is novella.

length, basically. It's like 34,000 words. It's so long. But about 24,000 of those 34,000 words are about things that happen before the end of Revenge of the Sith. So you only have about 3,000 words that are about what Obi-1 is up to during the time between the prequels and the original trilogy. And fewer than 2,000 of those are about that decade between episode three and the new series. So that section is about to get a lot longer. But you can see. why there hasn't been a huge amount written about that time because Obi-Wan is mostly moping and meditating and sweating and spying, drinking some black melon milk, practicing his crate dragon impression.

Into it. Yeah. All of which we see in my top pick here. So number one, we have the three issues that are about Obi-Wan on Tatween that appeared in Jason Aaron's run of comics in the Star Wars line, which Marvel published started. in 2015. So specifically Star Wars number 7, 15, and 20, which Aaron wrote with three different illustrators and which were collected along with a few other issues in a 2020 trade paperback called Star Wars from the journals of Obi-Wan Kenobi. So these all take place in the year

or two before the new series starts. And they sort of set the totin for the series. And the whole conceit of these issues is that Obi-Wan left a journal for Luke, in which he described what he did while he was watching over him from afar, kind of creepily. And now the grown-up Luke is reading it after Obi-Wan's death, presumably skipping over all the pages where Obi-Wan is just sitting around the jundling waists and talking to Banthas. So when we meet him in Issue 7, he's been out there for years already, but he's still struggling with it. I'll read a quote here. He says, as hard as it was to become a Jedi, it was even harder to stop being. one, but I did. Instead of Sith lords and bounty hunters, my days were spent battling monotony

and inactivity. I should have been training the boy, but his uncle never allowed it. And I suppose there was a part of me that couldn't blame him. The last Skywalker I tried to train was gone. They were all gone, all the Jedi. And sometimes I wondered if I should have gone with them. Dark. Yeah. He also says, you never trained me for this, Master Quigon. You never taught me how to fade away. So I think that's the vibe you and we'll be going for when this series starts. So that'll get you in the mood. These issues show Obi-Wan struggling with not intervening to help Tatweenians and with respecting his restraining order from Owen Lars while protecting and guiding Luke in subtle ways. So he fights off some of Jabba's thugs who are trying to steal water from

Lars during a drought. It's more than the usual drought on Tatweenian. even drier. He goes into even deeper seclusion because he's worried that Jabba will be looking for him. He fights off some sand people so that the Jawa's will give him parts Luke can use to repair his T-16. He gets a talking to from Owen. And then, as we discussed during Book of Obothet, he has a duel with Jabba's bounty hunter by Cresantin, whom he temporarily blinds and scarce with his saber. And then Luke shows up just in time in his T-16, to save Owen, which gives Obi-1 hope. So that takes Obi-1's story up to about a year before the TV series starts. So that's where I would start if you're prepping.

That really just sort of sets the tone, sets the tone, tells us what Obie's been up to, which is not a whole lot, honestly. But he does have the fight with BK, which is kind of the highlight of this little sequence here. Yeah, this is a great recommendation. Great read in general, but certainly feels like handy, a handy, handy prep, somber? Just the right injection of sudden unexpected action? And a lot of reflection for my handsome dude, Obi-Wan. I love it. Yep. Now my second pick is the 2017 run of Marvel's Darth Vader. There are three different Darth Vader series in the last few years. So don't make the mistake.

I did. Yeah, read them all. But if you're trying to reread, be careful that you're not rereading the wrong one. speaking from experience here. So the 2017 one, this was written by Charles Sol and illustrated by Giuseppe Kamunkly. The whole series is worth reading because it follows Vader from right after episode three to about two years before Obi-Wan. So you see Vader getting used to his suit, embracing his cis self and hunting Jedi, and also leading the Inquisitors who are going to play an important part in Obi-Wan. but I chose this primarily for issues number five and 13,

where we see Vader's visions of Obi-Wan. So in number five, the emperor sends Vader to Mustafa to corrupt a khyber crystal from a lightsaber that Vader took from a Jedi he'd hunted. So it's green. He has to turn it red by pouring all of his hate and anger and sadness into it. And while he's doing that, he has a vision where he renounces the dark side, kills the emperor and then looks for Obi-One to ask for forgiveness and Obi-1 is about to kill him. But then Vader takes off his mask, takes off his helmet, Obi-1 realizes who he is, lowers his blade, and calls him Anakin, which is really wrenching stuff.

Dissing. Yeah. Ben, it's just like when you shift an inch to the right or left and we can see your face at last from behind your microphone. That's always how Joe and I feel. Yeah. So when that encounter comes in this series, and Obi-Wan maybe realizes who's under that helmet, maybe this is a preview of that scene.

And then in issue 13, this is a little later in the run. So by this point, Vader has put these doubts behind him. There is some conflict, but less conflict. And he has another fantasy now where he reenacts the duel with Obi-Wan on Mustafa. But this time he wins. He force-chokes Obi-Wan, throws him into the lava, and he burns up. So both of these picks give you a sense of Obi-Wan invaders' mental states leading up to the TV show,

which are not great, to be honest, in different ways. But they haven't seen each other in 10 years, but they've both been thinking about each other and have been kind of consumed with anger and guilt and sadness. It's just a pretty toxic mix on both sides. But this will kind of give you a window into where their heads are at when we rejoin them here. I'm so excited to be back in Star Wars lore with Ben. It's the best. The way that he can say things, chapter and verse.

It makes me so excited. Initially, I had misgivings about them meeting up again, right, between episodes three and four, but diving back into these comic books and reading about what they are both going through individually, really just made me more hyped to see them come together. So for my third pick, we have another comic at 20th. 16 Marvel comic book miniseries called Obi-Wan and Anakin, which was also written by Charles Sol and illustrated by Marco Ciceto. And here we see Obi-Nanian happier times. Not happy, but happier. So this is a five-issue run. It's set three years after Phantom Menace,

and it follows Obi-Wan and his Padawan as they answer a distress call on a remote planet. And even though this one is set a long time before the new series, I think it's still useful for the glimpses we get of the bond between the two, a complicated bond, which we've seen, of course, in the Clone Wars and on the screen. But here on the page in this miniseries and in another one called Age of Republic, we see Obi-Wan wrestling with his promise to train Anakin, which was Quigon's dying wish. And Obi-Wan doesn't think he's as good a teacher as Quigon, and maybe he has a point there. Maybe. Maybe. Anakin has fallen under Sheave's influence at this point, and he's thinking of leaving the order,

and Obi-One has decided that if Anakin leaves the order, he'll have to leave the order too, so that he can keep training him because it's just too important that Anakin not fall to the dark side. So this series is about Obi-1 trying to convince Anakin to stay in the order, but also trying to convince himself that he is the right teacher for Anakin. And here's a key quote. He tells Anakin, being a Jedi is not about power or lightsabers or even skill with the force. It is about connection, being part of something bigger. I am stronger as part of the Jedi Order than I could ever be alone.

So I think one of the themes of Obi-Wan Kenobi, the show, will be how Obi-Wan finds that strength when he is cut off from that connection. Now that he's largely alone, how will he regain that power that he used to have? as a member of the Order. And that's so funny, because genuinely, honestly, that was originally on the list of what I was going to do. And then I was like, I'm not allowed to do that because Ben's doing all the reading. But genuinely, that line, I'm stronger with the Jedi Council than I am alone. And what Obi-1 has to do to learn, maybe that's not true or maybe there's another truth about that.

I don't know. I just, I think that is a really, really key line. It's fascinating that it comes from this source. Great wreck, Ben, if I must say. Thank you. And just as an honorable mention, I'll throw out two books that include Quigon ghost cameos. So the first is Asoka, which is a 2016 YA novel by E.K. Johnston. And the second is from a certain point of view, which is a 2017 book of short stories, including these stories, Time of Death by Kevin Scott and Master and Apprentice by Claudia Gray, who also wrote a novel a couple of years later called Master and Apprentice that's about Quigon and Obi-Wan. So in these three things, Asoka, Time of Death, Master and Apprentice, we see Obi-1 communing with Quigon at various times and in various ways, which Yoda, remember, told him he would teach him to do in Revenge of the Sith. And it seems to have taken some time for Obi-Wan to learn how to do this. And in the Jason Aaron comics I mentioned earlier, we see Obi-Wan talking to Quigon, but we don't hear any answer.

So it seems like Obi-1 might just have heatstroke, or maybe he's just lonely enough to talk. to himself, which I can't blame him. He doesn't get a lot of company. He actually names the bantas that he talks to, which is nice. My guy. Yeah. But I will be disappointed if we don't get a Quigon reunion of some sort in Obi-1 Canobi, whether it's via voiceover or the full force coast, whatever it is, I will take it. And I think that will be a heartwarming, meaningful moment. So we need it. Maybe. I mean, so one of my favorite things that has happened on this podcast. I was like, do you guys think possibly? And you both were like, yeah, obviously. Ghosts Quigone is going to be in this. I was like, oh, okay. I didn't know. It has to happen.

But is it going to be heartwarming? Or where is Obi-1 state of mind in relation to Quaguan at this point? Or quite. Quigon's like, great job. You really made a mess of that? He's like, maybe Obi-1's like, why did you put this on me? Why'd you tell me an untested, like, Jedi, to train such an important person's Anakin Skywalker. Why'd you do this to me? It might be. I got killed by us in Florida. That's one of the things I'm most interested to see about the series overall is like, are there peaks and valleys in terms of how Obi-1 is carrying that guilt, how much he's blaming himself

and when that shifts to maybe casting aspersions elsewhere? Because like Ben, you mentioned the Assoca novel and, you know, one of the lines that I really love in that novel is like when he's thinking back to how he went to Schmeese grave to apologize to her for failing her son, which is this. It's like deeply heart-wrenching moment. And, you know, the fact that he is carrying that same shame and that would surface you would think across all of these conversations with Quigone, but also I think you're right, Joe, that there would be this resentment too.

And the fact that, you know, Obi-Win himself would tell us only a Sith deals in absolutes gives me a lot of hope that we will see some of that nuance and some of that wrestling and grappling. And I think when someone like Owen is saying to him like we see in the trailer, like you trained his father. You know, he's going to really be confronting what it means to potentially try, not just to train, but to consistently try as he has been, to protect. Was Joel Edgerton just on the podcast? Like, that was just such an uncanny uncle Owen impression, Malloryman.

I thought Joel was here. Latus, gaiters. Layers, gaiters. Oh, yeah. Excellent. Oh, God. Always just doing my best. There were some reports, though, about rewrites of Obi-1, right?

And the idea that maybe it was too dark initially and that they had to brighten it up a bit. So I'm kind of curious about just like how deep the Obi-1 psychological spiral was in the first draft. I assume that we'll still see him struggling with a lot of that in this series. And I'm looking forward to that. Not that I want to see Obi-1 suffer. But I am kind of curious, you know, how deep, did he go in his own head in the original version and how deep will they allow him to go here? So there's also the possibility of other flashbacks to perhaps romantic relationships.

Who knows what could come to mind here. I know we're all looking for that. I sure and shit hope so. When you say meditating and sitting in solitude, I'm just thinking. Fantasizing. A lot of time for fantasies and sex dreams. Yeah. Yeah.

What else is going to do? Cold, cold, lonely nights. Yeah. You can only name so many banthas, you know what I mean? Yeah. Last thing, there are two new Obi-1-centric titles released this month. It's a big Obi-Wan media blitz for this month. One is a prequel-era novel about Obi-Wan and Anakin called Brotherhood by Mike Chen.

I just got this yesterday. Yeah, I haven't had a chance to read that yet. The other is a comic book miniseries called Obi-Wan, not confusing at all, by Christopher Cantwell. where in the first issue, which is out now, we see Padawan, Obi-Wan, who's trying a Jedi mind trick for the first time. And we see him sort of as a learner still struggling with finding his own path as opposed to being a rule follower in the order. So that series will be running for the next few months. So it may tie into the TV series somehow. Ben.

What a time. Bangor after banger. Great work. So glad it's Star Wars season again. the circle is now complete. I mean, I'm so excited to read every single thing that Ben. I always want to read every single thing that Ben told me to read. And on top of that, I'm going to watch everything that Deborah Chow told me to watch.

Actually, the good news is I've already seen all the movies that she recommended. But there's like a bunch of good stuff on here. They're all bangers if you haven't seen them. So let's listen to what Deb Chow recommends. Hi, how are you, Deb? I'm good. How are you? I'm doing so well.

I want to do something ever so slightly different because, of course, I haven't seen any of the show yet. You can't talk about much of the show yet. So I wanted to start by asking you a lot of our listeners love to do prep work for shows. They love to be informed. So I'm wondering if you were to advise them to watch or read anything of the philoni animated, of the books, of the comics, of the movies, what you would advise? I guess it depends on how much time they have.

You know, if you want to go full on, there's a lot. You could certainly do the prequels, clone wars, and rebels in getting ready for this. But I would say, you know, if you have an average amount of time, then I would definitely say the prequels. For you sort of prepping to make this series, was there anything in particular that jumped out to you in either rewatching the prequels or checking in on the animated that helped you feel like you understood the character of Obi-1 better? I did a pretty deep dive. And I, you know, I'd done Star Wars in general, done a lot from Anelorian. But for this, I really did a deep dive on Canobie and looked at a lot of the extended universe and everything. You know, the prequels, I've watched them so many times.

I can't even count anymore. But, you know, they were the biggest, obviously the biggest touchstone for the show, especially Revenge of the Sith. So it was really interesting. I think, you know, every time I would watch them, I'd get a new appreciation for them and, you know, be looking at different aspects of them. So I think they're obviously the biggest reference for us. but, you know, obviously for things like the Inquisitors and rebels and so much stuff. But, you know, it's also very helpful for me that, you know, I worked with Dave on Mandalorian. Right.

I wanted to ask you about that in a second, but I was talking to Joby-Herald like a couple months ago about what moment, what like key Obi-Wan moment was the moment that he felt like really unlocked the character for him. He likes to cite this, the Phantom Menace fight where you see Obi-Wan sort of like hopping behind the force field. because he can't get into the fight yet, so he's got a little hop in him. And I was wondering, is there, like, one moment like that that feels very Obi-Wan to you?

Wow, that's so specific, Toby. I've never heard that story. I've never heard that story. I don't know. You know, it's interesting because obviously we've got, you know, Ewan younger, and then, you know, we go into Surr-A-Ginnis.

But I think, you know, one of the things I've always loved about the character is that there's this wit and there's a humor and there is a little bit of the twinkle of the eye. And so many times on set, Ewan can do this thing where he smiles with his eyes. It's just, it's so Obi-One in some way.

And it feels so connected to, also to Alec Guinness in a way. So I think every time I saw him do that, it's just, there's something very special about that, you know, because it's got that compassion and the warmth embedded in it. The famous smizing eyes of E. McGregor. Yeah. We'll never be able to get over it. I wanted to ask you about working with Dave on The Mandalorian. I wanted to ask you specifically about visual style because it's so interesting to

me, it feels like watching, you know, all of Mandalorian, watching Book of Boba Fett, there is definitely some leeway for directors to put their stamp on things. But these shows also feel like they're of a piece. So I'm wondering for you as you're putting together the visual style of this show, how much are you wanting this to feel of a piece with the other shows and how much are you wanting it to feel like a Deb Chow event? You know, I think with Star Wars, like, you know, obviously you do want to have a coherence to the whole galaxy.

And, you know, in a large part for us, you know, I had Doug Chang as a co-production designer, and Doug provides that in spades for me. And I can always, you know, feel very reassured because he worked on the prequels, and he's also done Mandalorian, and he's done so many of the shows. So so much of just the world is being conceived

in a way that is so organic to Star Wars because of Doug, and that's so incredibly helpful. I think, though, with the different stories that we're telling, you know, as a director, you're looking for a style or a tone that, supports the story that you're telling as best you can. So we're telling a story that's a little bit more personal. It's a little bit more emotional character-driven. So the style of it needed, for me, felt like it needed to be a little bit different than what I did on Mandalorian.

Can you, obviously without giving anything away, can you describe the difference in that, in that style at all to me? Yeah, for sure. I mean, you know, Star Wars always feels obviously so connected to Westerns and Samurai films. So I think, you know, and the easiest way to explain it is probably, you know, if I was looking at things like classic samurai and classic westerns for the work I did on Mandalorian, but this one, I was looking at things that were a little bit more atmospheric, a little more poetic, say something like the proposition or assassination of Jesse James. So it's still a Western, but it just has a bit of a different lens on it. I mean, you read my mind. I was going to ask you if, you know, if people want to be super

preppers and they've already gone through the Clone Wars and rebels, was there anything non-Star Wars that they should watch? The proposition has haunted. me ever since I watched it. I love that movie. It's so good. Anything else to add to that list of two that you just gave me? You know what? I think it was like visually, you know, I was also working with Chung Hoon, um, who's pretty incredible. And like, you know, you know, we definitely wanted to have some new planets on this. And, you know, because I feel like part of Star Wars is getting to go to new places and meet new characters. Um, so, you know, say the planet of Dayou, which is in the trailer, that was very much inspired by Wangar Wai. And we were looking at, you know,

and also, Chung, him coming from the old boy, trilogy. So we were looking at a lot of Asian references for that, but, you know, things that had a lot of color and a lot of life, but in kind of a gritty, cool way. So I don't know if that, I don't think you necessarily need to go watch in the Mood for Love or Chunking Express to watch the series, but, I mean, that's, that is where some of the references came from. I feel like it's always good advice, though, to tell someone to watch in the mood for love or Chunking Express. You can't really go wrong with this movie. So even if it has nothing to do with Kenobi for them, you're still got a good movie. That's perfect. And then what, you know,

what can you tell me about working with Hayden on this? You know, bringing back Hayden, obviously we didn't want to do that lightly, but because of the connection to the prequels and it's Ewan and so much of the weight coming out of Order 66 and what happened in Mustafa is coming into the series with Kenobi's character, that it just felt sort of natural, you know, that Hayden should be part of this. You know, I think it's, you know, it's a very special situation where you have two actors

that have played these roles so many years ago in such a high profile franchise and then they've had time away from it and then they're coming back together so it's not just professional. There's also like a personal relationship in their lives in between.

So there was a lot going on and I think it made it feel very sort of emotional and special. I think even more so than the Mandalorian and Boba Fett which are shows that people loved there is of course the connection the emotional connection

that people have to Obi-Wan, the emotional connection that a certain generation that grew up with Hayden has to Hayden. Comparing this to your experience on the Mandalorian, how different does it feel the way that people are just even responding to the photos of you all in press tour or the VF cover story and all the things that are like, what have you seen from your side of things? It's weird for me. Yeah, it's definitely a weird experience. I mean, I try not to go too far down the rabbit hole with it. But, you know, I think one of the things is, the trailer came out and, you know, once we started doing press, that's been really nice for us,

is to really feel the prequel love and to feel the generation that grew up with the prequels kind of going, these are my characters, you know? And that's kind of awesome for us to feel that, you know, there's that whole generation that really, really genuinely love the prequels. All right. Well, thank you so much, Jeb.

I really appreciate the time. Thank you. All right, Joe. They are coming. The Inquisitors, the episodes of Obi-Wan, all of the other pods on the ring of verse, all of it. So it's time to wrap today's episode. Thank you to our Jedi Masters.

Steve Allman for producing this episode. Arjuna Ram Gapal for his additional production work on this episode. Jomi Aderon for us work on the social for this episode. And of course, thank you to Ben Lindbergh. And Obi-1 Canobi series director, Deborah Chow, for joining us today. Please tune back in for our Obi-1-Kanobi Instant Reaction and Deep-Dive pods. our Stranger Things breakdowns and all of the other goodness coming on the feed.

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