The Ringer-Verse - ‘The Odyssey’ Instant Reactions | The Midnight Boys

Episode Date: July 17, 2026

The Boys are back, and today, they’re traveling to Ithaca! They give you all of their thoughts on one of the most anticipated movies of the year, diving into the difficulties in retelling one of the oldest stories, how this was uniquely a Nolan film, and the acting performances in this star-studded film. Then they give you a little Nerd News on ‘The Batman Part II.’ (0:00) Intro (11:35) Spoilers ahead (15:01) ‘The Odyssey’ instant reactions (1:20:15) Midnight Meter: ‘The Odyssey’ (1:22:41) Outro (1:23:31) ‘The Batman Part II’ Nerd News Hosts: Van Lathan, Charles Holmes, Jomi Adeniran, and Steve Ahlman Producers: Aleya Zenieris, Devon Baroldi, and Jacob Cornett Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Guys, some breaking news dropped about Batman Part 2. So instead of giving it to you later, we decided to drop what we're doing, film it. If you see us a different close, that is because we've recorded this on a different day, but we wanted to give you our thoughts and our instant reactions. So make sure you stick around for our thoughts on Batman Part 2 and The Odyssey. Welcome into the Ringiverse. This is, of course, the Ringer's Nexus podcast feed for All Things fandom. We are Steve, the architect Almond, the builder and tinker of things.

Jomey, the explainer at dinner on. You've got questions. He's going to answer. Old man, Van, he of the receding resurgent, hairline, Coke baby Chuck, 24-carry closer. Together, we are known as the Midnight Boys. We'll be right back after this. Okay, so files on socials. At the Midnight Boys' Pod on Insta and TikTok,

at Ringaverse on Insta, Twitter, Facebook, and TikTok. Now, I was recently told that there are more social media, apps that are trying to become big deals. Jummy, do you know what Clapper is? Clapper? No, I don't know what clapper. Is this a sex social media? I don't like the fact that that's always what's assumed.

Okay. It's called Clapper. Be heard, be seen, be valued. So I watch the short YouTube doc about the middle class of YouTube, of social media apps. Middle class. I watched a whole short doc about there's, basically class distinction, not just in who we are, but also in product.

Just think about it. You got first class chocolates. You got second class chocolates. Yeah. You got first class. Like watch brands. Watch brands. All that stuff.

This is stuff that we know. I'm not, nobody's putting it on. But there's also first and second class, third class social media apps. Because you got YouTube, Facebook, Insta, Twitter, TikTok. All that stuff is first class. But then there's like clapper. there's one called like bingo or boingo. What was the one that was trying to get?

I mean, Blue Sky, people still use Blue Sky. Blue Sky is not, Blue Sky is actually not a second class when Blue Sky is an outside child. It's a bastard. Interesting. Blue Sky Sands. Blue Sky snow. Blue Sky snow.

Blue Sky, what's up? I don't know if there's classes because we already have too many, too many social medias. I agree. We need to start calling them, you know? Right. I agree. But they are fighting.

And every time, I'll watch this, I'll send this to you guys. Every time something bad happens for, like, the big ones, the smaller ones, like, get super into it. Like, oh, maybe we can pull market share. But we all know this, like, some of them have ideological ties, like rumble. Rumbles for conservatives and all that, true social. Truth social. This was, it was all about the middle to lower class of, like, different products.

What's the black social media? So they had, this was in there. This was in a little doc. What was it called? Spill, they have. Spill? You guys don't know Spill? I remember Spill.

Was that a pandemic one? It was one that came about after Elon Musk. Bought Twitter. By Twitter. And then there was Spill and there was another one. There were two ones that were black that came out of this. But Spill was the one that I remember the most. Two of them.

Anyway. So you're not, we're not fucking with them. They're fucked them. No, we got to meet the audience where they are. The audience is predominantly on TikTok. Could we be on Spill? Sure. We get like three followers and I got to post a spill now.

Now, here's the deal now. What you just did is fucked up. That's just how the business is. I'm just saying, but like, man, shout out to everybody over on Spill. Shout out to April. Shout out to all other people on Spill. Shout out to y'all, man. Isaac Hayes and fan base.

Do you ever use fan base? So the niggas come up with shit and you don't use it. I will say they're already working. Jomey fucking hard and shit. Now you want them to add two, three more social medias to the whole shit. Don't make me start to laugh. conversation that me and Jomey had this past weekend was hilarious Jome talking his shit

don't make me no mate Charles What? We can't even talk about it They pissing you off Jome? Yo, man me and Jomey talk a lot Sometimes I could tell Jomey energy

just be a little off If you don't get jolly Jomey got two speeds Jomey got Jolly Jomey Yeah and then Jomey got Jomey in the dirt. There's no middle.

Y'all got me fucked. We've met fucked up, we've met fucked up Jomey. You know what? I can feel the energy because I wasn't even going to the audience he's screening yesterday. He's like, yeah, I'll see y'all later.

I'll see y'all later. I said, Yommy, sometimes Jomey, sometimes Jomey, sometimes Jomey's eyes will be big and he'll be looking at it because he's a nice, he's a nice big cuddly bear. But I felt Jomey's energy off. I called Jomey, we had a conversation,

and Jomey had me and Kalika rolling laugh. It's just funny. It's funny when the nice guy is getting this shit off. Whatever. Okay, check in all social media. Jemmy. Please. Please. Y'all, there's a lot of work to do this summer.

There's a lot of stuff. There's a lot of stuff going on. Y'all think of you guys. Odyssey, World Cup, Moana. Spider-Man. Spider-Man. Comic-com. I just read today the Moana budget.

Moana had to make $600 million. How did it turn out like this for the rock? There was a point where the rock was tephan. You put him G.I. Joe, Fast and the Furies. You put him in anything. Dog. Do you know how you know that the rock was slash is the man in that regard or like whatever? Because they were, to your point, if your franchise needed an injection of people,

they just write them in. You go get the rock. It was almost like he was the movie version of an actress called Heather Locklear. Do you guys know Heather Locklear? Yeah, yeah. So your show would get to a point to where the original run of your show was kind of over. People had had enough of those characters. But if you wanted to get four or five more seasons out of your show, you put Heather Locklear.

Franchise Viagra. Yep. And that's what the Rock was, but it didn't work from Atlanta. It doesn't seem like. No. It's crazy, too, because Lilo and Stitch made a Billy. We were like, after Snow White, we were like, Disney Live Actions dead. It's over.

the little Stitch came out made a ton of money. Well, I guess the Rock just got to go back to WrestleMania. I mean, even always, the Rock is like a megastar, so it'll always, I get what you're saying about movies. All movie stars of the Rock's ilk get to that mid-50s point where they kind of got to figure out if they keep stomping on necks or if they do the smash machine. I like the smashing machine. I liked it too, a lot.

They all have to figure that out. I'll say this, though. I want to throw this at you guys because I just saw the Moana 600 million. legitimately should be five movies a decade that needs $600 million to break even. I'm not being real, bro. There should be five movies a decade. I mean, but Moana, the original one.

So they were probably like, damn me, what, it made like almost a billy? You're right. The original one made like a grip ton of money. I think even the second one, too, even though it wasn't as well. So they probably like, we go on make half. Right.

But just when you're saying we need to make $600 million at the box office for the movie to break even, there should be like five movies. Okay, I'll say this. I saw something I thought was really interesting. And I can't remember who said it. I hate saying something without giving proper credit for it.

But they said that there's a sweet spot with these movies. The movies can both be too old to capture audiences because there's not enough cultural relevance for it. But they also can be too young. Moana might have not been out as a cartoon quite long enough to demand the live action remake. And then there are also ones. that have been out so long

that people are less interested in the stories. There's a sweet spot for the live action remake that might be 20 years, might be 30 years, but five to 10 years since it dropped or 40 or 50 years since it dropped might not work. I mean, but they be whipping on the live action one.

I'm just like, I remember when I thought the live action Lion King, I'm like, oh, this shit going to be a fucking, they got Beyonce, they got Donald Glover. People were like, eh. I mean, it made money, though. It made money, but. But it wasn't like, it didn't do what they thought was going. What's crazy too about like the length between like the original coming out and the live action is that how to train your dragon came out.

What was it? Two years ago last year or something like that? That's the cartoon I'd been out for like 15 years. 15 years. Three sequels the whole thing. But that movie, the people love that movie. Yeah. That movie was dope.

I fuck with it. You saw the live action How to Train Your Dragon? I didn't watch all of them. You know, it's like a shot for the movie. It's a shot for. Shot remake. Love them. No, I fuck with the cartoon.

That Lion King shit made $1.6 billion. Wait, what? Yeah, yeah. It was in a nut. Wait, really? Wait, you didn't know that? 2019 was on some bullshit, though. We was just like,

we needed COVID. That movie was terrible. Yeah, they're gonna get you. Wait, we're on YouTube. Like, comment, subscribe, shit. You can watch every Midnight Boys and House of our episode on YouTube.com backslash at Ringers and also on Spotify program.

Remindersers on Sunday. locked into Talk to Thrones. Thank you to Joanna and Mal. I had a lot of fun on Talk to Thrones. On Mondays, the Midnight Boys give you their own instant reactions to House of the Dragon. Now, I had a Talk to Thrones experience, I want to talk to my boys about this. Okay. All right what? It was on Talk to Thrones.

Black C.R. Oh, yeah. Black C.R. C.R. The black. Or maybe C.R. or honestly, I was kind of be like, damn, Sierra might be the White Van Lathen. Let's be right. White Van Lathen? Black C. Who knows? When they're on there talking,

they like are doing all kinds of like dives into shit they know their house should we should I have okay should we go smarter or should we go dumber

we should always go dumber I think because when I was in there with them you know I'm all my pieces I watch the show I read a lot of stuff and all that stuff but I'm thinking we should just like when to set us apart when we're describing characters we should just be like the fucking

the nigger's son. Yeah. You know, the motherfucker from what you call? What's the name of the place? What's the name? We should be asking each other. Hey, man, what's the guy? Ah, he's from somewhere around the way.

That's how black people talk about all franchise entertainment in Bia real. Yeah. Yeah, like, who, who, you know. You know what is it going on? The dude that was in the movie with Madonna. Yeah. He and this bitch. And how you don't even like superheroes, you don't refer to them.

Like, we don't even call Tom Hollen's like, yeah, Spider-Man was in that joint. Spider-Man was in that joint. Spider-Man was in that joint. Iron Man was in that joint. That is true. We were like, yeah, Zendaya marry Spider-Man. We don't have to. People hit me up like, Van, did you see that?

Spider-Man went to Zendaya's family reunion? I'm like, the only problem is, nigga, he didn't. Her fiance, Tom Holland, English actor. Like, he went to the name. But we don't call Robert Patton to Batman yet. Because he ain't earned that yet. We're going to talk about him. I mean, he's a chameleon.

We're going to talk about the fucking range. And I'm so glad you brought that up because we have to get into the show. But I have Pattinson thoughts after The Odyssey. Oh, hell yeah. Okay. Hell yeah. Did we get into the day show? We're going to give you our instant reactions to that shit that we read in middle school.

Oh. What's the fucking? What's the thing? Yeah, my fucking for the Simpsons. It's two of them. There's a horse. There's one. And then that one's like the prequel.

And then this thing is busted back with a. sequel. When he took a minor character. What's his name, Odacius? He took, yeah. Odysda-da-da-da. It's got two. It don't look like it's your sound.

But he don't look like it's your sound. It don't look like it's the sound. But he was in the first one, but not really. Not really. He was kind of like a leg of my black show. I'm like, man, it was kind of better when Brat Pitt and them did it. Oh, hey, bro. Hey, bro.

I'm going to lie, man. This bitch ain't had no Achilles in that motherfucker, man. Achilles. He needs a little more. Erring. Where's the Hulk at, bro? We're giving you our into reactions to the Odyssey. Spoiler warning.

You guys, this is the oldest work of fiction. It's literally the old story. However, however, we realize that you read it in the seventh grade, eighth grade, Greek mythology clash. You might not be boned up on it. So there are spoilers in this episode surrounding the Odyssey. Steve, I'm the spoiler one. We're getting ready to talk about. The Odyssey. You're listening to a reaction podcast.

The spoilers are coming. Midnight Manifest, got to put you in the know. Chuck, take it away. All right, this is your Midnight Manifest for The Odyssey, directed by Christopher Nolan, screenplayed by Nolan, starring Matt Damon and Hathaway, Tom Holland, Zendaya, Lupita Youngo, Samantha Morton, and Charlie's Theron, among others. A decade after the Trojan War, Odysseus, the king of Ithaca,

has got to return home. His wife Penelope is besieged by suitors who want her hand in marriage, and thus the throne. While their son, uh, Tullamechus struggles to live up to the glory of the father he never knew. In typical Nolan fashion, the Odyssey becomes a temporal movie on a structural and thematic level. After the war, Odysseus and his men are lost at sea. Soon they are captured by the Cyclops, aka the son of Poseidon, who will dissey— Damn, bro. He was on a roll.

Tough. Damn, bro. You know what? Keep this in. I didn't realize the sound was going to play. I was trying to get to a clip from the movie and some shit popped up on Instagram. I apologize.

I wasn't right. Soon, they are captured by the Cyclops, aka the son of Poseidon, who Odysseus was outsmart and blind so that his men can escape. But Hubris gets the best of Odysseus, and after he tossed the Cyclops, he's cursed by the god of the sea,

which is unfortunate because there's a lot of sailing ahead for Odysseus and his men. From there, an entire bag of horrors unfolds. Odysseus' men are turned into big pigs by Circe. Then they're tempted by the sirens. There's also his killer, Whirlpool. and sea creature, and finally some forbidden

cursed beef, Odysseus washes up on Calypso's shore, the last survivor of his crew, the god falls in love with him and keeps him drug with the lotus flower for seven years. Odysseus reveals to Calypso that he fears returning home because he's the ancient Oppenheimer by creating the Trojan horse, which is the physical embodiment of pissing

over Zeus's law. From there, Odysseus returns home to battle of the suitors, him into Telemachus, team up to go born identity on Robert Pattinson and the rest of the suitors, and the baton has passed from one movie star to another as Odisius. This year sails away with Penelope leaving to Lamechus, the king of Ithaca. That has been your long Midnight Manifest for The Odyssey. I'm going to start.

I was blown away. I was enchanted. I was taking on an epic journey. I love this fucking movie. It's phenomenal. Craig, I want to talk to you because we were concerned trolling Christopher Nolan a little bit with some of the trailers, with the Travis Scott of it all. Travis Scott is the first face that you see.

Yes. In this movie, maybe it was the 70 millimeter IMAX citywalk experience, but from the moment the movie started to when it ended, I was transported. I was in awe. So this is what I'll say about the movie just to orient my thoughts on it. Number one, and this is kind of a paradox, the movie was so good that it doesn't matter that it wasn't quite as good as I thought it was going to be. Okay.

All right. So the movie is so good. it is so good and it really is that good that it doesn't matter that it didn't quite meet my expectations and that's just because I think my expectations were so unrealistic, right?

It is a movie, it's a lot of movie, but it's a movie, right? You think you take Christopher Nolan and you give him this and that I don't know what people expect it. It's like kind of what people expected from Drake's first album. They thought that they would like get transported to a place of

melodic, rap, sublime, bliss. And it came out and it was good music. Now, this is not good music. This is great fucking music. Have I felt more compelled in a movie theater before? Yeah. But the artistry, the characterization, the scale and the scope of this, at times this movie doesn't have you by your heart.

It has you by your spine. The Cyclops scene. By your spine. Even just the shots of the sea and Odysseus and them ceiling. The scale of scope. It is like, I would. will say this. I do not know if there's a director alive. A lot of directors

could make The Odyssey. I don't know if there's a director alive who could have made this version of The Odyssey. And I'll tell you why. Because Nolan does something that's really interesting in all of his movies. He treats his movies like human beings.

A lot of people in movies treat their characters like human beings, right? They give you five, six dimensional characters, right? But the movie takes the scope sometimes that is otherworldly or that is farcical, fantastic. Nolan treats his, it took me a long time to understand this, he treats his movies like people.

Everything in the movie, every single thing has a very grounded explanation as to why it exists. Like, a good character is one that you can explain why they're good, you can explain why they're bad, you can explain their trauma, you can explain their heroism, right? A good movie is one to where the film gives you. you a narrative and a look and a feel and you don't really know what you're coming to. That's not the way Nolan treats his movies. He grounds them

by making the film a person. By making the film something that you can hold hands with. And to do that with the Odyssey is actually a gigantic swing because the Odyssey is supposed to be a fantastical myth of

warring gods and a human in between it. But he made that story into a human story by humanizing the film. It is way intimate than I ever thought an Odyssey film could be. Because that's not the way that story is actually supposed to be told. Yeah. Right.

But he did it. And because of that, it's one of the more fascinating filmmaking choices that I've ever seen before. It's almost as if he did it to show that it could be done. I think, what we said, Joe? I think the thing, and you talked about this, like, in the trailers, we're looking around, we're like, what makes this version of the Odyssey special? or what makes Christopher Nolan's unique touch on The Odyssey Special. You can't sit in the trailers.

It's all over the movie. From the Cyclops scene to the scene with the lady turning them to the pigs, there's like this body horror element in that particular scene that had me like, again, I'm just like, yo, what am I looking at? The scene where picks out the six people off the boat, the hand just comes out of nowhere. It was, to you guys' point, incredible, a master class. the way, I mean, it's typical Nolan stuff, the way he's interspersing, like, the time. Time is not linear in this movie.

It's flashbacks. He's going forward. The entire thing, it's very like standard Nolan, but it's just incredible work. I loved it. As our resident Nolan hater, Steve, how did The Odyssey Fair with you? I was also transported, and I absolutely loved it. I think this is probably one of the first times that, to me, Nolan lives up to his hype. and I think that that was kind of the downplay

that I was like really brushing up against every time that there's now a new Christopher Nolan movie it's like what big grand thing is he going to give us what big amazing impressive feat of filmmaking is there going to be on display here Oppenheimer was that was marketed as that way and everything prior I think this is something that

has all of the classic Nolan playbooks that you could see like he has all of his rule setting he has his time stuff. He has a version of the dead wife. And I loved all of it. He executes it perfectly. And it looks incredible. I think that the reason that I loved this so much was because

the Odyssey is supposed to be a thing that's malleable. It's supposed to be the stories that are told millions of times over in different ways with different languages and different types of cadences. And all of the ways in which the internet or discourse can push up against something like this, it's still incredibly valid to see something this big and this tangible of a story being brought to life by Nolan. It was incredible. Yeah.

So to me, you know, this eighth grade Greek mythology class. We spent a month on the Odyssey. Like we, 24 books. We did like, what was it,

like six a week or something like that? Like, we spent a month on the Odyssey. Like, basically the whole second part, a large part of a whole second semester. was us doing an Odyssey. I remember a very funny thing that happened

because we would do a film strip and I think I told the story before we would do a film strip to go along with like the lesson. You run a film strip, you have to tell a story. What was the fucking story where Zeus turned into the swan?

When did Zeus? Do you remember this? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I forget the goddess, but he turns into a swan. Isn't it, wait, isn't it, that's the mother of Helen of Troy because they have two eggs,

two of them are sons, two of them are daughters. The swan, yeah. Okay. So when Zeus turned into the swan, I was running the film strip. And so I'm running a film strip and I'm saying funny stuff to the class when Zeus is turning into the swan because it's funny to turn into a swan to attract a woman. And so I'm saying funny stuff, whatever.

The class is laughing. The teacher's laughing. We'll have a good time. So there's another guy and it was his turn to run the film strip when we started doing the Odyssey. And the teacher was like, nah, Van, we're going to have Van run the film strip again. class like that, he started crying. I remember, this is in the eighth grade. I know.

There's no awe. No, I feel bad for him because he's the type of guy that cries over stuff like this. I feel bad for the guy. I was like, Nick, you're getting ready to cry over the motherfucking film trip, so I let him run the film strip and everybody was pissed. Yeah, let him run it. I'm not going to run the film strip. If he's going to cry over the film strip. But I just remember

like him running the film strip and ruining the Odyssey. Because he was trying to do too much. He was doing voices. is he was like I was I was letting the Odyssey be the Odyssey and just kind of or excuse me letting the story be the story and just kind of but he was going he was going away theater kid theater kid I say that to say you can fuck the Odyssey up yeah and I've seen it

like you can you've seen an eighth grader fuck up the odds line I think most of us have seen that in school like when you can fuck the Odyssey up you can and one way to fuck the Odyssey up is to take that hyper epic and try to literally capture it on screen Nolan had no desire to do that he kept the fantastical elements

of the movie which something like Troy which was the Iliad did not do Troy decided that we're not going to make Achilles into an immortal warrior god we're not going to bring the gods into this we're going to tell this like it's a historical war film right and that was good for the time Nolan actually split the difference here I'm not in any way compared this movie to Troy

because Troy cannot fuck with this movie anyway But Nolan said we're going to split the difference. And what we're going to do is we're going to ground the movie in the human experience, which the movie is about PTSD. It's about vulnerability. The movie is about shame. The movie is about honor. It's about value.

It's about worth. It's about all of those things. It's a very human story. At the same time, you're dodging sirens and whirlpools and cyclopses and all of that stuff. which actually heightens the human experience because in that cave, he says, would you talk to ants? Would you reason with ants?

In this world, Achilles, excuse me, in his world, Odysseus is an ant, but at the same time, he's dealing with things that are so large when it comes to people that by the end of the movie, you're there with him on his journey. I mean, to me,

when I was watching this movie, I kept thinking in the back of my mind, okay, what was it about the Odyssey that attracted Nolan. And one of my favorite scenes is he makes us wait for almost the entire movie. And then when he is sitting on the shore, when Matt Damon is sitting on the shore where Charlize Theron, he finally reveals why he does not deep down want to go home.

And it's basically like, I broke Zeus's law. The Trojan horse is a symbol of warfare. It is the bomb in Oppenheimer. It is time travel intent. It is this thing where, this, the wisest man in the world realizes, I have created something and now warfare and how we just live as humans will never be the same

and he cannot face himself. And I was like, oh, it's the moment in a film where you realize, okay, this is what this director has been trying to grapple with throughout their entire filmography. What does power mean? What responsibility do great men have when they create something? that is out of their control and just seeing

the Trojan horse in that sequence and it coming back to Zendaya being this woman that is killed because of Odysseus, you're like, oh, okay, you had something to say with this. It's just not about the epic. So I have a lot to say about that,

particularly. I know Jomi wants to jump in, but that's something that me and Steve talked about last night. Jomi didn't come to the fucking shit last night. But me and Steve were there. Remember what you said? after we got out of the movie. Which, uh,

not necessarily. What did I say? I mean, I said, we had a whole conversation. I said a lot of things. He got locking. Steve,

Steve was being so smart after the movie. I said, I said, that's definitely not ASAP Rocky. Steve was smarter. Steve was smarter than, we were out there where Eric Voss. Eric Voss is like our guy now,

man. We see Eric Voss at every screen. Hell, yeah. He's out there talk an hour after. You talked about how the movie talks about and investigates Zeus's law. Oh,

right. Yeah. And how that ended up actually being the entire point of the movie to what Charles is. It's like the unmaking of civilization yet the remaking of something much darker which is what we have now. And

the thing that kind of breaks it all is the fact that the fall of the Bronze Age is the idea that the like the tenets of human decency just start to erode because of the fact that like we are these evolved beings that are now no longer in it

together but fighting for something that's about ourselves. don't make me I don't want to have to remind you to be brilliant Sometimes you just got to prime the engine a little bit You gotta prime the engine What the fuck? Are you okay?

Did you? Did you see? Sometimes you just got to yank it, brother. I know that. That's actually true. Can we? Yank it to get it going, man. You know.

Sometimes you got yank it to get it going. Yeah, I know. I know. Don't let anybody make you feel bad about it. You're never too old either. All right. Jomey, what are you going to say? The Oppenheimer comp is incredible because it's not the same movie,

but it kind of is in the sense to your point of grappling with, like, you did this thing and it changed the entire landscape of the world forever, right? What does it mean when you singularly feel responsible for that? And not only that, it literally does the thing where, so we see the sack on Troy, like once or twice, but it constantly goes back to him looking up at something, right? And the same one Oppenheimer is a scene with,

Einstein talked, like, whisper something to Robert Dynie Jr.'s character. And we don't know what it said until the last part of the movie. And in the movie, he looks up and it's the, it's the horse. And he's like, oh, man, I kind of, this is my fault. Like, all of this is all of me. It's like one for one. And I love Oppenheimer. I thought the last act of Oppenheimer was fantastic.

The last hour, amazing. And so seeing that in the audience, I'm like, ah, this guy, he's bad. He's cooking again. So, oh, you got some? Oh, yeah, no. And what makes it great, it is to me is that every sort of set piece and every sort of, like, big chapter in what the Odyssey is, the Cyclops, Sersi's encounter, all of these things are retroactive indictments of what that horse symbolizes, what that deception and violation of Zeus's law is supposed to be. Like, you see it with the Cyclops is that they didn't bother to know whether or not it could talk. They just wanted to either kill it or run away or survive.

every time with Searcy, they like more or less assault her person in order to get food and they don't try to reason that one. He's yelling and screaming over her. I'm not here to hurt you. Yeah, but she started getting off pretty early. Nah, they walked up in there.

Like, hey, they yell, this is our shit. That is how, the way they was moving, but she also, let's give her some agency. She wanted to turn motherfuckers into pigs because she got all kinds that she had a bad boy She's got her reasons Okay

So I just say Were you finished I didn't mean Yeah no no But like all of those things In the story are basically reinforcements of that And it's what makes the theme

At the end Like resonate so sound This Trojan horse shit Is my favorite part of the movie Yep And I'll tell you why Okay So

The Trojan horse Is actually framed By our civilization as incredible genius. Ingenuity. It's framed by our civilization as a leap forward. You build a high wall in the olden days. That was all you had to do to keep people outside of that wall, right, and not able to attack you.

A wall is pretty primitive. Even us here, not really able to create a wall to stop ICBM. from coming in. That's not the way you stop ICBMs from coming in. The way you stop ICBMs from coming in is Trojan horses. You use espionage. You use destabilizing governmental tactics. You use diplomacy, which is sometimes espionage with a smile on it.

You use back channel financial agreements. You use all of that stuff. The Trojan horse becomes a modern sort of blueprint of how you pass or go through things that are primitive. You use smarts. You use guile, cunning, all of that stuff. You say that you're giving somebody a gift,

but inside of the gift, you jump out and you kill. Wow, so fucking smart, right? The thing is, the gift was an offering to God. So the only way to be more human, the only way to, excuse me, be more advanced, is to offend God. It's to offend what you believe

is the basis of your existence, the thing that gives you transcendence. That is the only way for you to gain power is to subvert that. The movie sets Odysseus up as this guy who has all the answers and then slightly throughout the movie, ever so slightly, you start to see

that he's just on a boat. And there are so many things that are going to determine whether or not he gets back to his family. And the number one thing that's going to determine it is whether or not he can come to terms with what he's done. Whether or not he can come to terms with the fact that he ripped apart all that is human and all that is good to end this war.

Then I was thinking, as I was driving home, well, why was he in the war in the first place? He was in the war for Agamemnon's sort of vanity and his lust for power and all of that stuff. Odysse is his whole point was to get back home. It wasn't his war. But the thing that he did put disson. between him and his son and his wife. And when you look at the movie showing at the end of it, that's one of the greatest reveals that I've ever seen in the film.

What the Trojan horse actually was. It was rape. It was pillage. It was murder. It was incivility and unhumanity. It wasn't grandiose like we saw in Troy, where everyone is fighting and parachutes Achilles and these legends are men.

made. No, it wasn't any of that. It was grimy. It was ugly. It was disgusting. There was a cost. And Odysseus doesn't get to be the hero in this until he comes back to his home and shows up as a husband and as a father and as a human being and confesses what he did. And so that indictment of that story, but not just the story, the framing of the story as being something so genius is just a hell of a swing from a director in 20 fucking 26. I mean, even more brilliant to me is Odysseus is trying to get home for over a decade. But immediately he actually does return home. Because what he does with the Trojan horse, Penelope, Tomechus, all of them are afraid of these marauders and these pirates.

And you realize the warfare that he has now opened up to the world. has already affected his kingdom, whether he's there or not. And I thought it was just like such a brilliant choice where if you really watch the movie carefully, you're seeing slowly how he's looking at his soldiers, people that were his men, like, these were his brothers and family. He's like, oh, they'd become savages. Like when they got in that Trojan horse, they never got out.

So every single time throughout their journey, he's looking at his men being like, I gave you one thing to do. honor the gods. And at each point, I'm like, no, the minute that, and there's this great scene where the soldier takes the sword and beheads the goddess statue, you're like, oh, there's no putting this back anymore. They don't believe in the gods anymore.

This is completely done. And I was just like, oh, it's ironically, and he definitely did this on purpose. Nolan was Trojan horsing what he wanted to do with this story. Certainly. Oh, yeah. By the way, shout out to Andrew Howard, two-dition strangers.

Mm-hmm. Troy, see him, Andrew. We won an Oscar together, brother, see you on a big screen in Troy. Shout to everyone. Shout to everybody going on. You're the man. Now, let's talk about a couple of performances here.

I want to start with one. Let's end with how we felt like Matt Damon did in this movie. Okay. Okay. I want to start with the performance, Robert Paddinson. Hell yeah. Let me tell you something here. Motherfucker.

Okay, let me tell you something. Pattinson could be the guy. And this is not a Paddinson movie. This is not a Pattinson movie. But this is a movie where Robert Paddenson, who is playing Batman, he's Batman. He's the bat. He is the man of the bat. He is Batman, the hero of the hero.

He plays a sniveling. like hyper villain in this movie. A psychological villain. Not a brutish, whatever, like almost on some Joker type energy type shit. And does it perfectly. To me, it is by far the best performance in the movie.

Doesn't have as much to do as everybody else. We'll say that. John Lunduzam was also great. But I was super duper impressed with how, in this, This movie and in his career right now, every time he shows up, he's a plus player. The scene with him and Penelope, when he's trying to convince her that somebody needs to take the throne, was so good. I mean, Ann Hathaway is incredible, too.

But he's, you can feel like this, you know it's fake, but there's still a level of, like, gentle and gentlemanliness that he's putting off her. You know it's a performance. And then when she says something he doesn't like, the ticks in his face, like, I don't really, I'm not really messing with that. just incredible stuff, the stuff with Tom Holland. But I also was impressed by, like, just, I mean, the casting in general in this movie, fantastic. But the highlight was obviously Robert Patterson. He was the man. Loved everything that he did.

I want to possibly swap to my number one or a number two performance, and that was Samantha Morton and Circe. We have to stay on Robert Pattinson. We have to stay on Robert Pattinson. I have one thing to say about Robert Pattinson. What are you doing? Okay. We'll get to Morton because I think she was incredible.

You can't fucking remember the fucking. smartest thing that you've said in the last week. You say smart shit all the time. But now you want to change before Charles has had a chance to talk about. I will just say, I think what Nolan and his team are very good at is like every character that they cast, especially the big names, when you see Robert Pattinson versus Tom Holland, to me, it's two different type of movie stars. And then you have the apex of someone like Matt Damon, who Matt, Matt,

Damon could be in the talented Mr. Ripley. He could be a fucking goodwill hunting. He could also be fucking Jason Bored. And I think with Robert Pattinson, you needed a character who is representing not only like another movie star going toe to toe with him,

but within the text of the Odyssey, someone who represents the crumbling of civility, someone who does not have honor, who is almost that character is the future. Whereas like you are looking Odysseus to me as the past. And Robert Pattinson is like, oh, everyone is going to be like the suitors. All like humanity, it is not about going to war.

It is not about worshiping the gods. It is about like how can I hoard as much wealth as possible. Hey, you're a blind person. Fuck you. You're a fucking dog. I'm going to kick you. Nothing matters. It's about being an opportunist.

Yes. And I was just like, oh, having Batman play that character. I was like, fuck. And he totally leaned into it. Yeah. Yes. Patton don't care. Paterson doesn't care. Patent's everywhere. Everywhere. Okay, Circe. You just want to, like, before you get to say, hey, I threw it off the rails. I'm sorry.

Let's talk about the witch. Talk about the witch. I loved her. No, I, no, she was, I think incredible. Not only because she had one of, like, the grossest and, like, incredibly, like, wringling performances that we had. but it was also the fact that she has, like, a level of sadness and cunning and, like, comfort that not only, like, the witch, like, the witch story of Circe with all of these encounters with animals and, like, the, like, the captive island that she kept things on. But I think the level with which she can portray both calm and insane determination when she confronts Odysseus about the nature of her. of his men and what it means to be at war with somebody. Like, like, indicting their nature versus what they were just doing to follow orders. Like, do you think they did that because you wanted them to? Or do you think they were going to do that anyway?

And the fact that she is determined to kind of just neuter all of these things that Odysseus is representing and is kind of bringing into the world to neutralize that and to return them to nature and to return them to a more baser instinct. to her is a way of healing the world. And Odysseus stops her. So it's interesting. In the book, or in the book, in The Odyssey, that's the same but a little different. He actually, if I remember correctly, he stays there with her for a while.

No, they have sex. Yeah. The relationship, I believe they have a child. Yes, that's his little piece, you know what I mean? So that she's able to make her click. I mean, historically, Circe, it was an interesting. choice, a very, like, sensual, witch-like character,

and Nolan completely, like, pittance. No. In this movie, that character is foreshadowing. In this movie, that character is foreshadowing about who our heroes are. Our heroes are turned into pigs.

Odysseus has to plead and make a case for what his nature actually is. They get there. They leave him. He's left. So look at this thing. They leave Odysseus.

Odysseus is left. They're like, hey, bro, you got to stay down there. We have to go by ourselves, right? When you were in Troy at the end of the movie and everybody was getting killed up, did any of those guys look like they were hesitating? No. They're hardened, right?

They go up there without who the conscience of their regiment is, platoon whatever, Odysseus. They leave Odysseus and think about what happens when he's hunting the deer. They are starving. right they're starving at this point he sees the deer yet he still has to pluck the bow and he still has to pluck the bow the deer runs Odysseus kills him and he finds out that his prey is actually a man which is who he's been his entire life his prey is not he's not doing something

to survive what he's doing is killing people and taking advantage of them. And even when they walk past all of the animals up there, the animals are lions and tigers and stuff like that and deer and stuff, what are they? Pigs. Because they shit where they eat. And they taste great when you take their bellies out, right? All of that type is, that was a joke. You guys are fucking so transversible for the movie.

So all of that stuff, she turns them into that. She says, straight up, leave your armor and your weapons in the back. Take off everything. that makes you more than what you are. And the sustenance that I give you will reveal who you are. That actually foreshadows what happens at the end, when number one, it's only Odysseus left with his humanity. And number two, it's only him that's able to come to terms

with the world that he lives in. And so when he's sitting there and he's talking to her, she says, hey, he's like, why do you keep your sister like this? We get along better like that. We get along better in the truth that my son, sister's probably like a crow or something like that. So like when that thing first happened, I was like, oh, they changed a lot of this. If they changed it, like, what's even the important part of like keeping it in?

Is it just for the visual gag and to gross people out? Because when she was making those things. Awesome. But they actually kept it there to separate Odysseus once again from his, his, his, what do you want to call him? His fellow soldiers, whatever. Yeah, yeah. His regiment. his regiment, whatever, to separate from them.

There's something going on in his mind that wasn't going on in this. But what I would say is, and this is true of the epic, is that, you know, the conception of a hero back then is not what the modern conception is. It's something that has always been a part of Odysseus as a character is that hubris. His entire Odyssey starts because he just can't leave well enough alone. He can't just escape the Cyclops.

He has to kind of put a little bit extra on it. He has to almost, I would say spit in the face of the gods, but his weakness is how smart he is. He is one of one in this world. And what I loved about the Circe scene is it's like, to your point, it's her making him come to terms with the fact that it's like the thing that separates you from your men is that you know what you're doing.

It's just base nature. Yep. It's just savagery with them. You know better. Right. And you still go about it. Like, a lot of what happened at Troy is your fault. This Odyssey is your fault.

And I was like, it's very funny how Nolan never really lets Odysseus off the hook until the end where I was like, all right. Well. Tom Holland. Tell him Marcus. Thoughts. Thoughts. I thought he hooped. I thought he hooped.

It's kind of, I mean, we talked about this after the movie. We talked about this after the movie. Bill, right? Where he's kind of playing the Tom Holland character that we ascribe to him. Like, oh, little Spidey. Where's my baby? Oh, where's my dad? All this stuff.

And I think, like, that's part of the reason why Chris Nolan cast him. Because, you know, that's kind of the vibe that, you know, he gives off. But in this movie, it's perfect, right? When they go back, when he, like, man, this movie's so good. When he realizes that that, that's his dad. When the dog, he sees the dog, he does a dog. dog and he's like, oh, that's my pops. Oh, we're going to lock it right now.

I was like, yo, they didn't give him enough to do in the fight. I thought like he should have been down there killing people with his pops, whatever. It's cool. But I thought Tom Holland, this might be like one of his the best performances we've seen from him. I will, I'm going to say this about Tom Holland. That is such a

hard, like, just difficult role to be in because you're neutered for most of it. His arc as a character is how do I become a man when my father is the wisest person in all of the world? You're kind of like the Paris of this movie. But what I think Tom Holland actually does,

and this is why I think he actually is a very good comp for Matt Damon as a movie star, is like Tom Holland does have a quality about him that you do feel safe when he's on screen. He does have that movie star quality where you're like, whether he's Peter Parker, Telemachus, I was like, oh, he's coming. this movie felt like he was coming into the next phase of his career where I'm like if he does another role like this I'm like all right that's on you

but in this I was like oh we are watching Tom Holland weirdly wrestle with his own narrative of how you go from being a boy in the world to a man and how do you feel shoes that are way bigger than you could ever hope to feel

movies have a problem with characters like this movies have a problem with characters who aren't pussy but aren't strong meaning films and stories a lot of times like to put your weakness in cowardice

right but sometimes you're not a coward you just can't beat the guy up you're willing to fight just get punching your shit right like you're willing

you're willing to do the brave thing he's not quite ready yet like you have a had enough seizing yet. You have enough training yet. A lot of times it's difficult to make an audience care about that character. If the characters are straight up coward, you can say, well, one day, this character is going to find his bravery, and the moment he finds his bravery, he'll be, he'll be interesting. That's kind of like Opum from Save a Private Ryan.

Like, Opim is, uh, opum is at first the moral center of what they're doing because he won't kill those guys in cold blood. And then you really, realize that Oppam is a coward and at that cost. And then the moment Opem finds his courage, boom, he shoots somebody. It's like, whatever. It's like, it's easy. But if you just would have been a really brave soldier

that's just kind of like not a good soldier, it's a more difficult character to connect with a lot of the times. In this movie, it totally works. It totally works. He is willing to, he stands up to everyone. He doesn't turn anything down. he actively confronts his mother, the suitors, everyone. He already actually is acting like a king.

He's just not ready. He doesn't have the powers of the king yet. He doesn't have the experience of the king yet. And by the end of the movie, I'm still not sure that he does. But I will say the reason Nolan, to mean, not just a great director, but a great writer, I love that scene in the beginning of the film between Holland and Leguizamo, when he's teaching him, hey, when you're fighting,

sometimes you have to, it's not just about swinging your sword, you have to kind of let the enemy come to your neck. And I was just like, oh, Nolan is giving this character who can be very, very annoying somewhere to go.

I'm like, that's where he needs to go. He needs to use his mind and his strategy. He can't just be a blunt force object. And I'm like, in lesser hands, it would have just been Tom Holland yelling about his dad for almost around. There's a lot of people in the movie.

Oh, Steve. I mean, yeah, no, and I think that it's a, I think his growth is very much in play with Leguizamo's character who is like, kind of like, kind of this beacon of the civility of the house that is trying to be reflected more or less onto his son, but everybody else. And to see Holland kind of juggle that after he leaves to go and find, find word back from his dad about whether or not he's alive. I think it's that kind of

bravery that's reflected in Holland's performance that is really good because he still tries to like where the emotions of whether or not his dad is even alive when he's talking to Bernthal about whether or not the story of Troy was like

really like genius or like all of that stuff. I liked where he went with it. I think the problem with me and like what made Holland's performance not like amazing. but it was just more of the fact that, again, he didn't really have that much to shine on because everybody gets like a moment in this movie.

And I think he has it too, but it just didn't shine as brightly as some. I think the Tom Holland character is the best lens through which to see the contemporary nature of the movie. Because it's been talked about a lot how the film, you know, uses kind of its mom,

it's dad, it's all of that, stuff like that. And, you know, We watched Troy, McGillian, before this movie, just like she wanted to know, hey, I'm like,

it's not direct sequel. We don't have to know. I have to know this guy was at a war. It's not, you know, Odyssey's Troy, too. Yeah, it was not, it's not too Iliate to,

too Odyssey. You don't have to, you don't have to know exactly. But when you watch that, there's a lot of pomp and circumstance to the movie and they're speaking like that, but under that there's nothing.

They actually use all of your, expectations to undergird the importance of the film and the story while this movie does it the opposite way. They don't cloak it in any of these are the finest Royal Shakespeare actors talking like this to where you feel like it's important. This feels like an episode of the MCU or something like that. That's how the people are talking. And it's because what's happening is important and emotionally weighty and incredibly

dazzling to look at it on screen that's what you have to, you can't, he doesn't try to cheat. He doesn't try to cheat in any way and he takes some real, real swings. I think a lot of that is actually best seen through that character. Because that character doesn't get any grandiosity. Yeah.

That character gets failure and then utility. Like, can't do it. And then he has to learn how to be useful in whatever way that he can. And he's the second guy. He's robbing throughout the whole movie. I mean, I also I want to bring her up. I thought, And Hathaway was amazing.

Fantastic. For a character that can be very static in terms of she. What you feel about women? There's no need for that. There's no need for that. That was Charles. I was saying slick, slick on your approach. If Charles was a suit, would he be calling Shorties?

Like, it's like, we slick. That was a good move. That's how I know it's happening. Charles is becoming Hollywood. Hollywood Chuck is starting to come out. Media train Chuck. Media trained Chuck. We're all talking about Charles.

was like, well, not as you guys have finished talking about all the men I would just like to say, this is Chuck. I would just like to say, happy international Women's Day. First of all, first of all, first of all, first of all, first of all, first of all, first of all. Happy International Women's Day.

Thank you, Chuck. All timer. All timer. My other one was going to be worse. I was just like, let's talk about how beautiful Lupine is. I mean, Look like Helen Detroit to me.

I'm about a show, man. Like, when she turned and her face was fucked up next to John Berndthal, I'm like, damn, she really got to be next to John Berndtah. I wish I could have gotten the scene where Lupida is waiting for Safty to come back. Oh, yeah. I got him. I mean, we didn't talk about the scene at Hades, man. That scene was crazy.

Crazy. That's my favorite was crazy. Elliott Page. Killed it. That was almost. Killed it. That scene was almost too much fun. me. Why? Because, man, that shit. You know, there was a lot of stuff in the movie that was like,

you know, playing upon some, I'm older than y'all, right? And so, you know, a lot of my older folks that I've passed away and all of that stuff. We've all lost people. But that scene was like very, very, very real. Like, that's one of the realest, like, you drink blood and then that gives you the opportunity to, like, talk to the people that are in the netherworld and they have regrets. I was like, I don't know, nigger. It's Tuesday night or Monday night. I was like, I don't know if I want to have, if I want to think, but that is my worst night

there because not only is they drinking the blood as shit, they look at Odysseus. Like, yeah, I know you wise, but you ain't shit. Right. Let me list the ways. It's tough. At the beginning of that mini Saints of Newark movie, I almost turned that bitch off. I'm telling you. I don't like shit like this. Because Christopher Maltesante is like narrating the movie.

And it goes to his his headstone. And says, I want to talk to you about Tony Soprano, the man I went to hell for. I was like, wait a minute. Hold on now. God damn it. I just want to watch a mob shit, nigger. I don't want to hear voices from the beyond talk about the regrets. Like, what the fuck is going on?

We have to bring it up. Yeah. Like, yo, Matt and David really said Elliot Page. first thing in the movie Hey yo we got a, bro I was like hey this is you could have told Elliot

bro you could have told But stay on that scene though I didn't mean to cut your wisdom because that scene is an amazing achievement in film Oh what when they're in

The Hades Hereafter Sort of With Agamemnon What I think To me once again The genius of this adaptation Is

Nolan is a leaning so much into there is a price for this type of wisdom. There's a price for this type of hubris. This isn't, to your point, whether you see Troy or a lot of war movies, the grandiosity, the epic nature of it wipes away the fact that you are killing people. You are raping. You are pillaging and you are sacrificing soldiers. There's even that moment when they're in between the whirlpool and the monster.

and his soldiers are looking at Odysseus, and they're like, we deserve to know, though. Our lives are in your hand. And Nolan is doing this, in that Haiti scene throughout the rest of the movie, he's doing this interesting thing with Odysseus where it's like, yes, you're the wisest person, but what responsibility do you have to the people

that are leading you? I mean, that you are leading. What responsibility do you have when these people are more than just pieces on a chessboard? Because Odysseus does have that sociopathic thing where they are just kind of chess pieces for him to move as he sees fit. He is playing, he is doing math with their lives.

We have to give up six to get this the entire time, not really looking at them as people, but that's what you do when you're a general. It was six or all of us. We're going to talk about Agamemnon being Stanis Braddian? What do you mean? Gave his daughter up to the sea.

Tough. Just nasty. Just nasty work. I get why Lepida will kill him. Also, I kill him too. We can't. Here's the thing. I know Van isn't a fan, but we can't be sacrificed in our light skin daughters like that to the fuckercy.

Okay. Big biracial movie. Huh? Big, big movie for the biracial's. We have Lepid news. Shout out to her. What do you want? What do you?

You want a list of biratials go. Biracial corner. No, I'm not doing it. Biracial clear up. Nope. I'm not doing it. I'm just saying, you brought it up. I didn't bring it up.

You brought it up, knowing that I would go in on it. And then you castigated me for, you were the one in a way. If we're going to be honest, all the biratials get guys, Zendaya gets killed the media. I didn't ask for that for them.

I didn't ask for that for them. The only thing I've ever asked for them is solidarity. I didn't ask for them to be harmed. Don't put that on me. Oh, my goodness. No, Christopher Nola heard you complain it, and he's like, we're going to have the biracial chat right in the Odyssey.

Yeah, the value. Anyway. So, but yeah, look, I actually even liked the way they did Agamemnon in this movie. If you went back to Brian Cox's, we talked about this last night, Brian Cox's portrayal in Troy, he's portrayed as this foolhardy, power, hungry, almost unsurious character that next to the purity and the heroism of Achilles or the I guess the affableness

of Odysseus just looks like an asshole. In this movie, he is portrayed like a king that must be served. And that's it. And he's very, you know, obviously does a terrible thing as far as sacrificing his daughter. But even the figure of Agamemnon of being this big hulking sort of figure

while he's in his armor makes it look like it's someone that Odysseus has to bow to. Well, if we stay on that with the design of Agamemnon in this movie, I've seen a lot of just the history nerds and people getting like their ass upon their back about like, oh, that's not historically accurate. That's not what they really look like. And when you watch the Odyssey and see it, the movie, I'm like, no, no, no, no. No one is actually making this an epic where he's like, what, how can I both honor

what we've seen in movies before while also like subverting expectations. where I'm like, this isn't a Robert Eggers movie where you go to see it be exactly close to the historical timeline. To me, when you go to a Christopher Nolan movie, you go to see something that's bigger than life. I'd like the design of this movie from the armor. If we talk about the Cyclops,

this movie does not work if the Cyclops doesn't work, and the Cyclops is fucking terrified. The Cyclops is terrifying. The Cyclops, the eye, not just being an eye in the middle of a head, but being an eye that's turned to the side that actually has an eyelid. There is flesh to the Cyclops. The Cyclops seems like a real being and not a creation of a being.

It seems like someone who is actually cursed with great size, strength and power and one eye and not a behemoth that you cannot relate to. All the monsters and witches and they're all relatable. They're all kind of people. We don't really get to meet the sirens that much, but you know, you don't really get to meet them. I guess an odyssey that might have been rid in a while. Anyway, so I'm like, I thought that going that route,

making the Cyclops fleshy and all of that stuff. And like you could, like, you could win against them. But you also could feel sorry for him was like pretty awesome. He's very scary, but also was kind of human. Oh, I mean, and he also, Nolan talked about how he took inspiration from Guillermo del Toro, who is like, to me, the number one of the director in terms of making creatures that you feel not only empty for. but that feel real.

When you watch shape of water, there's a texture to the water monster. And I was like, oh, the Cyclops to me was amazing. I was, when I forget the actual name, but when the fucking technical monster

gets the first guy, I'm like, damn, bro. And that came out of nowhere too. Yeah. And it was for like 30 seconds and then it was done. We were starting to talk about it halfway, but we went on a crazy tangent.

Yeah. The scene, where he's out of like rack or string up the bow she like god this movie is so good you can tell her eyes like she knows that's her husband like she's put the pieces together she's like hoping like that's gotta be here but there was a moment with Matt Damon he struggles a little bit I'm like all right Damien you got this

you know how to string the fucking bow bro and what he does he's messing with him and then he's like boom and he shoots it through the axes and it starts getting busy All right, that is my one nitpick of the movie. 1v20? There was a little bit. I'm like, all right, Matt Damon, like 60, bro. This dude was cooking.

It's like they're seeing an Iron Man 2 where Happy is fighting the one guard in the front and Black Widow's taking out all those guys in the back. And you look at Telemachus upstairs with the dude, took him forever to fight that one dude. Meanwhile, Matt Damon is just like giving hands to everybody. He's like, look at Batman. And it's so funny.

This was a great moment. where they hide the weapons, but there's like a... A hole just dropping weapons. And Patton's like, shields, the shields! I will say, well, first of all, let's give space to Anne Hathaway because she was phenomenal in the movie.

That is such a difficult role because if you think about it, Matt Damon gets to move around, Tomeneckis gets to go to this island and that island. Anne Hathaway is, you know, the princess and the castle. She's trapped. but she is the beating heart of this movie.

She adds this gravitas where you have to believe that Penelope is someone not only that these suitors would spend 20 years trying to get and obtained, but someone who is just as smart as Odysseus and can keep at every single turn pushing them away. There's a subterfuge of she's making the, she's making the tapestry. And then she's unweaving it, but I did want to be like, damn, these things are dumb as hell. It don't take a decade to be. But she, they, they too busy drinking and eating and being idiots.

It is very easy to rule with power. It is hard to rule without it. And she doesn't have it, yet she is holding that kingdom together. She is holding that kingdom together until it's king can return and they can be a family again. And so like that, she's an. incredibly, incredibly important part of all of this because the moment that she gives in

and decides to marry the story is essentially over. But I also, when she sons Tom Holland, I'm like, damn, this is active. That takes a lot. I'm like, man, Tom Holland, you get his son by fucking Ann Hathaway, fucking Robert Pattinson. God damn.

He's the son of Hollywood. That's why brand new day, brand new day got to be different. I got to see brand new day. It's got to be a christening for him. This is the, this brand new. New Day, Colin the puberty of Tom Holland. It's so weird to say that. Tom Holland got Zendaya.

He's the 30. He's 30, bro. 30. No, he's 30 years old. He actually might be just turned 30, 30 or 31. He's the man. He's the man. He's objectively the man.

But there is going to have to be a movie where he plays a grizzled New York cop in the year 2096. He tried. He tried to try. He tried to drug addict, but he's going to have to, at a movie. some point, play, even if he plays like a cool male jigolo in 1970s.

In the past, who was the Tom Hott? If Christopher Nolan was making the Odyssey like 10, 50, 20 years. Tobin McGuire. Toby McGuire. Joseph Gordon-Levin. Joseph Gordon-Levin, maybe. Joseph Gordon-Levin could also get big. Joseph Gordon-Levin

He's perpetually 30, actually. He is, but in these movies, he wasn't nobody's little nigger. He was Batman's little nigger a little bit. A little bit. I don't know 500 days of summer Ah, nah, hell not. Five hundred days of summer, he gets to be an asshole at the end of that.

He, like, I can see what you guys are saying about Joseph War Living. I'm not just going to be right. You want to know who would have been the perfect? I think we're going to Tockelyne. What? Super bad era Michael Sarah. You know what? I don't know.

You know what? I don't know, man. You break too big. I don't know, man. I like, I don't think Michael Sarah really goes there. I think Michael Sarah would have been better off being like one of the assholes. suitors. Oh, hell yeah. Yeah. Because Michael Sarah plays

assholes so much better than he actually plays nice guy. He's so fun. Wait, where, so where for y'all, if we were just doing top three, top five, Nolan, where do you slot? Before we get to that real quick, I'll say one thing. I'm not trying to be, I'm not trying to be

in any way an asshole or a dick or be argumentative. We've talked about how much we love this movie. Yeah. If the movie does have a slight for me, for me. A slight ding on it. Slight ding.

Is that I think that Matt Damon is actually slightly miscast as Odysseus. I think that Matt Damon is such a capable and great actor. There's not very many roles

that he can't play. Right? But in this particular role, I do think that had this been like Christian Bell there would have been an intensity to the character and

that would have in the third act of the movie turned into a softening and understanding that might have resonated a little bit more that I'm not saying in any way that Matt Damon drags this movie or whatever Matt Damon is this is the fucking Jason Bourne is fucking Matt Damon don't get me wrong it's fucking Matt Damon but I still think and kind of always thought

that slightly in this regard slightly miscast to me damn I couldn't disagree more because I'm trying to think of like Damon's contemporaries where or a men around that age movie stars whether it's a Brad Pitt

or Keanu Reeves or any of those guys and I think what Nolan was reaching for with the casting of Damon is that he's always had that every man quality. He's always like obviously he's very handsome, but it's like when you watch something like Goodwill hunting, the reason why you can sympathize with the character that's that smart is because we all kind of know a Matt Damon in our life. Someone who kind of looks like that is well-meaning. It's like the difference between him being a fucking janitor and him being a professor at fucking Harvard

is a matter of different life choices. And to me, for where Matt Damon is at in his career, where he can do the physical acting of this, but still have the type of gravitas where when he's on screen, you feel safe. Like when shit is kind of getting Rocky, I'm like, there's a lot going on. Matt Damon knows exactly what to do.

To be almost Christian Bale, who I love as an actor, is almost too good in terms of. of like the dramatic shit where it's like he would have turned this into a way more dramatic role where you have to split the difference between like a dramatic role

and an action star and I think Matt Damon is a better action star than Christian Bailey I had the same thought when he, like beginning of the movie he's in bed with Penelope and they're having that moment like I gotta go fight

Agamette Montmore or whatever and I'm like man I just maybe it's because like Catwoman Batman whatever but I was like dang I feel like this should be like Christian Bell right here this just screams

bail. So do you think that this would have been a better movie with bail? At first I did in that particular scene. Then as a movie is going on to your point, I could like, there's a quality of bail where like in this movie, there's no shot. We would have been like he's in over his head. Right. Like he would have been like, you would have always felt like he's going to make it home. He's, he's the man. He's going to get there. For Matt Damon, like watching Matt Damon, there is a sense of, wow, this guy like, the smartiness of a. Dysius shines more, I think, through Matt Damon than it does through Christian Bale. Because Christian Bail kind of can do SmartMe.

Christian Bail. But for like the scene at Hades where he's like, oh, I'm about to get overrun right here. Like this is not, we have to get back to the boat right now. I feel like, oh, I feel for Matt Damon right now. Like Matt David can get got right now. I don't know if Christian Bail can get got in this moment. I get what you guys are saying. and I think that Matt,

you settle into the role with a way, in a way with Matt Damon. When I think of Matt Damon, it's funny that you would bring up Will Hunting or it's funny that you would bring up like, Jason Born on a Marsh and all of these guys. Matt Damon to me works when the, when the narrative surrounding the character is pretty singular.

Right? Or even if you look at Matt Damon in Ocean's 11. Like, if you look at, if you look at Matt Damon, Matt Damon in Ocean's 11, he is kind of the, he's the Tomahawk. Yeah. However, what happens is you put him in a scenario and you allow his character,

you allow him to just be free to do his thing. And that's what works when it's Matt Damon. Like Jason Bourne, things going crazy. He is kind of just free to be a guy who doesn't know what's going on. The vacancy helps him. In the born idea, even the talented Mr. Ripley, right? Like, there's this world happening,

but Matt Damon gets to subvert this world a little bit. In this movie, there's a majesty to the character of Odysseus that I sometimes wish that the actor portraying him had a little bit more of. I can see Christian Bale, to me, this movie tonally would have been more closer to Oppenheimer.

It would have, to me, been a more serious film. And this film is still serious. But Matt Damon leans you more into action film, Christian Bail leans you more into drama. I think Leonardo DiCaprio, who I love is an actor. I could not say. I don't know.

I don't know about Leo. We talked about that last night. I will say one scene that does work. Wait, wait, wait. Why do you think Leo? Just the physicality of everything. Because I haven't, he's never really been in action.

And he's not stoic. It's never, yeah. It's not kind of what you go there for. Just like the physicality of everything. I don't know if it would have worked for me. Although he is a master actor, so it might have. but like there's one part where Matt Damon's portrayal really does work

and that is when once again you allow him to be like what it is that I was just talking about when Troy is falling and he is on the other side of it and all of these things are happening around him the vulnerability that Matt Damon has and almost a little bit of the the humanity not even no weakness is the wrong word vulnerability is the perfect word that really worked in that scene, for sure. I mean, yeah. I also think weirdly Matt Damon allows Tom Holland to work a lot more because Tom Holland has a lot of the qualities of Matt Damon, where you watch him from a boy actor turn into a man. If Christian Bale was fucking Tom Holland's father, I would have just the gap.

That's a hat on the hat. That would have been a little like, shit, all right. I stand by what I said. Fuck y'all. I'm just joking. Okay. Look, man, it's time. Huh?

Where were you? Oh, yeah, yeah. What were you saying? I was going to say, like, if we want to do, like, where do we want to do our personal rankings or where do we think this nets out in his career if we were going to make a top five Nolan film? All right. So that's easy for me to do. I would have to sit with this a little bit more for top five. Nolan films. Well, top five, it is, it definitely is.

Yeah, it's in the first of me. The question would be whether or not it's top three. And my top three, Nolan is always going to be prestige number one. Okay. Inception number two. And we talked about this last night, man. Interstellar's three for me. Really? Yeah. Like, interstellar three for me. I love interstellar, boy.

You got to do the dark night, right? Or you got to do a dark night in the top three. I get it. So the way I would put it right now is I will put the Dark Night for Odyssey 5 I think I'm an easy call for me if I just had to go off the top of the dome I think it's Inception Dark Night I'm gonna put this at number three The Odyssey Oppenheimer prestige so you don't have procedure in your top five I did I just said I put it out five Oh you put it at five yeah oh so you're illiterate I get it What that's okay all right We got to be real about the prestige.

I love the prestige. No, you're not. But we're talking about filmmaking prowess of, like, where he's gotten to in his career. Yes. Come on. You're wrong. Yeah. Prestige is a little goofy.

And I love the prestige. It's a lot of my top five. And that's fine. And you're incorrect. How's that time? It's a personal top five, right? This is, well, it's a personal top five. Personal top five.

I probably put this. I probably put this at five. Put 10 at four. That's pretty cute. Brave. Three put Edsteller, Oppenheimer at 2,

and Dark Night, Dark Night at 1. Interesting. Prestige at 1, Dark Knight at 2. Batman begins at 3 for me. All right. You're a lunatic. I'm a lunatic, yeah. And that's okay.

Odyssey's all right. It's cool. Monumento. Okay. That's cool. That's a journey. That's crazy. That man begins at three is crazy. I love Batman begins.

Love it. You're doing it. You're doing in front of Graham. It's okay. Hey, look, it's your, guess what? It's your top five. You put Tenet at four. Yeah, because Tenet is amazing.

Whoa, Tenet is amazing. My last, my last take on this is, it is so funny to me how, like, Tenet and Tenet Oppenheimer and the Odyssey are like a trilogy. Yeah. Where it's like in Tenet, there's stuff about Oppenheimer. They're all about fucking weapons. They all are his most, like, time shenanigan. Dunkirk's in there, too, with the time shenanigans.

about weapons and war and all that too. Dun Kirk. I mean, this is like his, this is his thing. Right. It's like, you cannot, like, time is nonlinear in his storytelling. He'll just be like, this happens then, this happens when. You got to figure it out on your own. Or there'll be a moment in the movie where it all crystallizes together, right?

That's what Christopher Nolan does, and that's why I enjoy him so much as filmmaker. I think Tenet does a thing for me where it also, it does a time thing, but I love, I love the spy stuff, man. The spy stuff is so good in that movie. Then where does, where does it? Nolan go from here because he's done wherever he wants. No, no, but I'm saying like genre-wise because we've seen him do his epic now. He's done a time

travel movie. He's done a spy movie. That's the point. Superhero. Like what genre is left on the western? No, maybe. But the point is now he could literally do, Christopher Nolan brings you the invite. He literally can do he's because he's

National Lampoons. Because he's done whatever. He can at this, he's at the point in his career where he figures out what's to him and then he makes a movie about it. Oh, I'm more so just on a, like, because the films have gotten so massive in scale, I'm like, does he keep going that way? Or like with the Odyssey, which we kind of been talking about, I was like, oh, for such a massive film, this is a lot more intimate than I thought, does he kind of want to go into a

Scorsese realm where it's like you're making films that are still about gangsters, but it's like you're getting small and smaller. I mean, and my point in my answer is that like at this point, there's no way, there's like no real box to check for him. Yeah. It's legitimately about what, like, what he wants to tackle from a technical and thematic standpoint. He's legitimately said, I can come into whatever realm and make your movie. He's legitimately, he's done the war film.

He did the war film again. He's done the war film. He's done the science film. Superhero movies. He's done the superhero movies. He's done the spy. movie. He's done the historical

biopic. He's done all of that. He's touched it all. If we've done it, if we were doing a director ranking just like of like in 2026, who is the director where it's like, if you give him a blank

check, they will come back with not only a hit, but a good movie. Is he now number, he's been number one for a while? It's between him and Denise. Yeah. This is the real tension that we're having. I still think he's above Denise. Just in terms of just like,

Denise still has a little bit more. They're at different stages in their career. Where it's like Deney is still Deny is at his trilogy. Like Deney's at his Dark Night Rises. Can I say something? I just want to shout out somebody.

Okay. I saw the invite. The invite is not well directed. The invite is masterfully directed. Okay. Like she is good. And we already know, I'm not,

obviously we're having a comfort, but I was blown away by how well directed. And I'm not saying that she hasn't been a good director, but I was blown away at how well directed to end. They kicked her ass a little bit for the what was... Don't really, darling. They kept Olivia a while while she was doubt. But the story was really good.

Yeah, but like this she, that movie was shot composition, angles, comedic, all of that shit that I just learned in my first intro to cinematography class at UCLA extension with the rest of the people and shout out to everybody that took class with me, you know? But she just, it was a

really, really well-directed movie. Damn. I just said, like, it's a really, really, really well- type of movie. Chuck. All right, midnight meter, y'all know what it is? One to 12, one being the worst, 11 and 12 are reserved for true game changers. Start with you, then. Where are you going? Sit in. Okay.

Yeah, like, I can't, you always wait for, or the way that it'll be received, but it can't be, is impossible for me to rank it lower than a 10. It's a 10 for me. It's got to be a 10. The movie's magical, it's masterful,

amazing in all types of ways, easy 10. I'm flowing between a 10 and 11. I'm going to have to say 10 for right now. Mulligans will be interesting for this one. I will say, if I'm doing my math, any movie that starts with Travis Scott,

you already get dead. That's crazy. This is... Oh, wow. You don't know that was whack. All right, y'all know that was the same. Give me some other rappers that could have been the bar. No, no, no, you don't do a rapper because that is very much like old white men.

He's like, if you think about it, bards were the original rappers. And I'm like, all right, niggins. He liked Travis Scott. That's his boy. He put his boy in a movie. You wouldn't put his boy in a movie? You wouldn't put your boy in a movie? You wouldn't put your boy in a movie?

In Bob, boy, he was Travis Scott, no. All right, let's go. That's crazy. It's a 10. That's a 10. It's a 10 or 11 from Travis Scott. Perfect school. I think when Mulligans comes out,

I'll be interested to see where this one goes. But yeah, the movie was phenomenal. You guys go see it. It's in theaters now. The biggest screen you can. See it on the biggest screen you can. See as many times as you can. And, you know, shout out to everybody involved,

man, especially to the biracial. Once again. How many byracians were in this movie? There was some. No, list them. List them. Yeah. I mean, Zendaya was one.

The little girl was one. That's two. that's a lot of... Okay. How many black Americans were in the movie? One nigga. Shout out Corey Hawkins, man. I'm just joking.

Like, shout of Corey Hawkins. Is this our next black recast? Zendaya was... For the Odyssey? It's a joke. Zendaya is a Black American. Oh, we have to do a black recast about it. Black recast of the Odyssey is going to be great.

Black recast of the Odyssey. We're going to do it. We should do it next week. The Gats of the Modis is going to be difficult, though. I think we got some more Degisks is going to be difficult, but yeah, it's going to be tough to narrow one down. But since it's a Christopher Nolan movie and if it's black, you know, he would class.

Eminem the Bard? Eminem the Bard? Or maybe like Jack Harlow's the Bard? Jack Hollow. Jack Hollow. Jack Hollow. All right. On programming reminders on Sunday, stay locked in on Talk to Thrones on Friday. The Midnight Boys give you their instant reactions

to The Odyssey. Our producers are Alayazanares, Jacob Quartet, Devin Baroldi. Jomey at dinner on socials. Hashtag, we were sticking with my puka master, Joni. Yeah, I like that one for this one. Did you, did you look up in the Did anyone tell you anything about Mapooka? Was there any talk about Mapooka?

We tried not, no. Okay, you didn't get into it? No. Additional production from Arjuna Ramiga, Powell, Powell. It's important. Chuck, take us out. The Odyssey is at 10. The box office is running hot, and I'm sorry for hating on Mr. Travis Scott.

Ooh! All right, y'all, you are probably wondering why we have switched outfits. Some news just dropped today. Yeah. The Batman Part 2 is coming out, but unfortunately, The date has gotten pushback to February, 28. And they thought they were hiding the ball because it came with a little bit of a teaser for Batman's kind of new look with some slightly big ears. So I'm just going to throw it to Van really, really quick for this nerd news.

How do you feel about another pushback from Matt Reeves? I don't give a fuck about anything that has to do with the Batman, too. What? I don't fucking care. All right. You don't care anymore? Stop the cap. I don't give a...

Stop the cap. Brough. You guys, the Batman was good. It wasn't good enough for them to string people along with six years to a sequel. It wasn't that good. No Batman movie. No movie about anything has done this to the fans and whatever. I know a lot of people have careers and all of that shit like that.

another delay was paralyzing for my excitement for this movie. Will I be there? Of course. It's part of who I am. I've been with Batman for a long, long time. But fucking get the movie out, man. Fucking make the film.

Get the movie in the theaters, brother. Get it in the theaters. I also think this is probably music to James Gunn's ears. Because his shit is in the dirt right now, right? And so because his shit is in the dirt, it seemed like Matt Reyes. was going to come along and show people that there actually is a sheriff at DC

that can get movies made in a way that still services the fans and the story, right? Now, what you see is dysfunction from Reeves and his whole camp and dysfunction from James Gunn and his cold camp. He even got no Batman, Supergirl Bond, all of that stuff. This was an opportunity from Matt Reeves to walk in and be like, hey, we're going to deliver this movie. It's going to be six years. by the time that we saw the bad thing.

It would have been so funny if, like, production just stops on everything, D.C., and, like, gun is against the clock to get a Batman movie out before this comes out now. I mean, we're going to get two Superman movies in the time it takes us to get to Batman. That's not even the worst part, brother. We're going to get 3D movies

in less time than it takes for them to make two Batman movies. Utterly ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous. It was like a sole job at this point. So the reason why I say that is because, like, man, bruh. I get it, bro. I get it. So, Batman begins 2005.

Right. Dark Night, 2008. Dark Night Rise is 2012. Right. Right. That's what? Seven years? Mm-hmm.

For three movies. While Nolan also made exception. Inception. Right? The prestige, I think, was after Batman began. Was that 06? Yeah. Prestige was between Batman begins a Dark Knight.

Right. So that's, That's like, that's, that's, but I'm sorry, bro. What the fuck is going on? I don't fucking care. If we read the filmography of all the movies that Robert Pattinson has made in between the Batman. He's getting busy. I think even Robert Pattinson was just like, yeah, I just kind of kept taking film roles because.

I ain't making a movie. Movie not coming out. Yeah. I got, what else am I going to do? I think he just started shooting this because this is a camera test. This wasn't even like a shot in. the movie. I guess the

when I saw, when I watched, which was also like, I was like, guys, you're going to release a kind of nothing video to basically bury the news that I'm going to have to wait until 2008. The thing that I kept thinking about was, not is this the nail in the coffin for

D.C. But if you can't get a Batman, like Batman is the only thing we care about at this point, bro. Like, what are we talking about? What what is the movie landscape even going to look like in February, February 2020. I don't even know, man.

God knows, man. Will we all watching this on our meta glasses? I hope not. I mean, what I'm saying is, I don't know. I think that from the beginning, we had a lot of jokes about this, but if you're making a Batman movie, if you're making it for the fans,

I just think you have to, it seemed like they didn't know what they wanted to do. So what do you think that this the lay was about? Do you think that this is fully creative, that Matt Reeves just the story that he was trying to tell, it took him a while to finally figure it out and land it and get the script. And that is the thing that we always, that's the thing that James Gunn was preaching in the beginning. Like, you're not going to go into the... Hey, to be fair, a five-year gap or more is fairly common in sequels. Seven years between alien and aliens, 14 years between Incredibles, seven years between the first two Terminators, 13 years between avatars, 36 years between Top Guns.

and six years between Guardians 2 and Guardians 2. That's not normal. None of that is normal. This is from James. This is from James' threat account from like a year ago. That's from James Gunn. That's from James Gunn. First of all, first of all, first of all, but that, but that, but see, the point, the point, this is why I don't like that nigga.

Because, because, because that's, because that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, by the way, James Gunn, I like James Gunn, just fine. Just saying, but, you know, we say it was going to be easy on you. That's gas lighting right there. That's none of that is true. If you look at the reason why there's a huge gap between the Terminator and a Terminator 2 is because the Terminator 1 was a surprise hit. Yeah. It was a surprise hit. It wasn't that they didn't make the movie, not for the movie to be accepted, but the movie, first of all, let me not say that.

The Terminator wasn't a surprise hit. It was a big summer action movie, whatever, whatever. It wasn't a surprise hit. I want to say it was a surprise hit. But, like, they expand the lore with T2. Arnold Schwarzenegger becomes a gigantic action star between the Terminator 1 and Terminator 2. The Incredibles is a completely different thing in the way that they make sequels at Pixar. None of this.

But even if you take a Terminator and Alien, to me, that is not the same argument because I'm like, that is a different time in Hollywood where we've always been making sequels. But it is like, Alien is a perfect example of, like, James Cameron coming in and being like. It's two different directors on the movie. I have an idea for what an aliens would be versus I'm like, you guys know what the superhero pipeline is. Batman movies always have sequels. A lot of those movies are complete,

like even the space between the Guardians movie, Guardians was slotted in between a bunch of other Marvel movies that it needed to fit around. What the fuck are you talking about? It might actually, like, because of the millions of reasons why movies do or do not get made in a timely way, or at least the way that we expect them, we're trying to figure out what actually is to blame here

and I think that we kind of still can't because it's either we hear from one side that the script was taking too long or that the DC movie pipeline was getting too clogged up or the fact that Reeves was on his own island and not exactly dragging his feet and all of these are conflicting and the fact that you list like he lists

legacy sequels things that are completely antithetical to like an MCU pipeline and legitimate classics that like were reiterated upon like 10 years after the fact. Oh no. Like that's not like it's not a one to one comparison. They said I'm looking at I saw something.

I wanted to like double check but I'm pretty sure this is right. Like they gave him a trilogy in I want to say like 2017. Like they announced that Matt Reeves making the new Batman like a trilogy in like 2017 or at least or at least 2019. Right. Right. So we've known for a minute that he was supposed to make three movies, three Batman movies. And so whatever. you take like the pandemic obviously happens

and so that's why like from whenever it was announced 22 Batman movie comes out makes sense six years between movies I I would love to know why if we got this before Blade I mean definitely getting it

before Blade movie we never make it we never seen a Blade movie no movies canceled we never seen that again so look my thing is this I understand you know six years is a long time bro but this is how things happen now. They gave pluribus of two season order and they're like, hey man. We don't know when

we're getting that. They're going to come out when it come out. Let's have some pride. Let's have some shame. Okay, let's lock in. What happened to my country? I mean, fucking Robert Pattinson is going to be fucking 50. You want to know the count of movies that he'll be in before this? Jesus Christ. Have he working himself to the bone? For what?

Yeah. Mickey 17, Die My Love, the drama, Odyssey, Primetime, Dune Part 3. Here comes the flood. And then Batman. So that's 1, 2, 3, 4, 4, five, six, seven movies. Here comes the flood comes out later this year. Yeah.

So like, here comes the flood. By the way, most of these are what I listed are in 2026. He's in so many movies this year. So he's not going to be in a movie next year and the Batman's coming out in February 28th. Yeah, he's not listed at least for movies next year, but I'm sure that'll come down. Tough. Are we being, are we being petulant nerds about it?

Of course. Welcome to the podcast. There is like, people have been like talking about some stuff in the ether about like Matt, Matt Reeves, personal issues. I don't know what that's about. And that's like part of the thing is like, you can't be like, you know, again, personally you don't want to tell us everything.

That's for him. But we would be like, hey, man, going through some stuff, man, you know, can't make the movie. It's cool. I would love to, I would love to know that to some extent because it's just like six years between movies. With the landscape at the DCU right now, which is once again in El Gravel,

to quote Charles Holmes, the dirt. right it would be nice I'm I've never been less optimistic about the future of the DCU than I am right now whoa you didn't hear

you know we get I heard some news we're getting a blue beetle and man of tomorrow we're getting a little something I have no doubt that man of tomorrow will be good because Jameson actually cares

yeah I have no doubt that man tomorrow will be good that is meaningless The man of tomorrow being good is good for Superman and the part of the world that he occupies. That's not what they said, bro. What they said was that they had a whole vision for an entire universe and they were going to put it together

and finally there was going to be interconnectivity at DC that was going to rival what they did for Marvel. I thought we were getting the new 52 crisis on infinite or all kinds of shit, right? That's what the fuck they were going for. But he's followed his plan if we're being honest. No, he hasn't. Not really. Not at all. What you're talking about? You want to go back to the original video? The original video, the original video, the original video was acting like they

was going to keep some of that, the Zach Sire stuff. The original video was like, like, I mean, I guess they did with Blue Beetle, but the original video was like, if you go back and watch that now, if you go back and watch that now, none of the shit that he was talking about really happened, bro. Well, okay, part of what did. We've gotten a Superman film. The Blue Beetle's film still seems like it's kind of canon. We've gotten his creature commandos, Peacemaker, we're about to get lanterns, we've gotten Supergirl.

I just think the problem is we haven't liked a bunch of that stuff or it has not broken out of the bubble and become monoculture in the way that the MCU has. So there is a little bit like, if Peacemaker, if that season did what it was probably supposed to do, if Supergirl

was doing bonkers numbers and was amazing. If Creature Commandos was something that everybody cared about, I think we would be having a different conversation. I just think it's not that these things have all sucked. It's that they've been like fine to like good. We're waiting on great. So they never did the Waller show they were supposed to do. Remember that?

Oh, yeah. That was supposed to come. The authority got canceled. The authority got canceled. It's a lot of stuff that when they were laying out this world and then the way that they were going to do it, that they made it seem as if they were going to have this weird, wonderful DC experience.

And that is not happening. Well, I'm going to be honest, the Waller Show, an authority movie. When I saw that shit, I'm like, we're not getting this. I was into the Waller Show. I would love to see that. The Authority movie is a brave choice. We can barely get a suicide squad movie to work.

We get Jimmy Olson and Gorilla Grant. Yeah, they should cancel it. I can't wait. that, I mean, if it is as good as it could be. This is a fucking problem. Meat and potatoes, y'all. Meat and fucking potatoes. Kevin Feige wasn't giving us a bunch of bullshit.

Yes, he was. After he gave us the hits. In the beginning, he was like, y'all go get Iron Man, y'all going to get caught. Can I be honest with you? At that time, Thor was bullshit. Whoa, whoa. I mean, no, no, no, comparatively speaking. Comparatively speaking in the history of,

of comics. There is Captain America in Thor. Right. And then there is Amanda Waller in the authority. Okay. So I'll be on, like, so Thor is a bigger deal than them. But bro, nobody gave a fuck about. We agree. So, so like, so the, the, what the MCU proved, I don't be real with you, man.

Nobody gave a fuck about Iron Man. Iron Man was a, it was a B character, maybe a B minus character that people knew, but nobody really cared about like that. And literally, less than 10% of the population knows who the authority. I understand that, but when I'm telling you, 0% of the population knew who the gardens and galaxy were. No one fucking knew. Yeah, but we got Guardians of the Galaxy after Avengers.

But what I'm telling you is like, the MCU had already set a standard that that could be done. The superhero movie stuff was already out there to a point to where it was like, give people a good movie about a lesser known character, they will go to it, superhero movies. If you're saying that at the beginning of DC, it should have been Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman.

I don't disagree. I actually agree with you. I agree with that. Because that's the way that you do it, and that's the way Zach did. Zach went Batman Superman Wonder Woman. In the same movie. Well, so what?

I think that was different. I think that's where Zach fucked up. Yeah. I think that they were trying to, in my opinion, Batman versus Superman, I was like, oh, y'all are trying to compete with the MCU instead of laying the groundwork one by one.

Right, you fast-tracked. I'm not talking about that from the standpoint. That's an execution issue. I'm talking about, when you're talking about the meat and potatoes, Zach was like, I know what to make people care about Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman.

And they did that. And to a degree, that worked as far as those movies all made money because those characters have such cultural capture. Then you made a couple of stinkers and it was what it was. In this situation, I thought James Gunn actually had

a lot of leeway and latitude with the audience to go make his weird version of DC. But you got to make it and you got to make it good. Right? You have to. We had seen Amanda Waller enough

in these movies to be like, oh, a Waller show might be good. Well, you know, you don't make the show. Obviously, you can't do what you said. could do. That is the problem for me. What you're saying is true. What you're saying is right.

Hey, is Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman? Or even, like, or Green Lantern or so, like, we're getting lanterns. I think we would be having a different conversation, and I know shit went one way. If James Gunn came in, like, I'm doing a Batman movie too. Hey, people would have been mad, but guess what? The shareholders would have been like, damn, we had two Batman movies, say less. Shareholder value. That's what really matters right now.

I mean, shit. Eh, fuck it, bro. 2028, bro. The fuck. No, bro, we're gonna be... That dang, that's the Olympics. That's true. That's true.

That's the Olympics. Yeah. D. That's so crazy. February 18. How old are you going to be in 2020? 40 fucking 8. God.

Fuck you guys. All right. Um... Oh