The Ringer-Verse - ‘The Penguin’: Instant Classic? Reactions to the ‘Penguin’ Finale | The Midnight Boys

Episode Date: November 11, 2024

The Boys are back to discuss all things ‘The Penguin’ Season 1 (08:14). They get into the successes of the show and delve more into the inner workings of Gotham. Hosts: Van Lathan, Jomi Adeniran, and Steve Ahlman Producers: Aleya Zenieris, Jonathan Kermah, and Steve Ahlman Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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This is of course the Ringers Nexus podcast feed for all things. Fandom, we are Jomi, the Explaner, you've got questions. He's got answers. We are Steve, the architect Alman, the builder and tinker of things. We are. Oh, man, man, he of the receding resurgent hairline, and we have the Midnight Collective with us together. Alea.

S.O.B. Zanaris. Yeah. Stand on. Business. Arjuna da Wachi. The watcha. Ramga, pal. You know, Arjuna,

what if is coming back? Mm-hmm. Then we're all very excited. That's your show. I want to go that far. Do you remember the part in The Watcher? You mean what if? And what if?

Right. So this is like one of my favorite parts of any Marvel television show ever. Okay. Okay. The part where the Watcher realizes that Ultron can see him. Oh yeah

And he's legit shook He's like I laugh so hard He's like What? Is this motherfucker Looking at me? And it's just like

He dicks his He dubs his head a little bit He's like Yeah he's like is he looking at me And all of a sudden Ultron can see him I felt fear for him And then he's like

It was good That first season of what if was good I don't care what you're There was some good ones in there Yeah Also in the collective Jonathan

Hot Black Oh Hot Black Hot Black Hot Black It's better than calling a Matar baby like he did. I never called him a Matar baby. You kind of did.

You kind of did by saying that I wouldn't, but I'm going to say that anyway. That's what he did. Steve. Why are you more mad at me than Jomi saying you did? Why do you think? You know. Just say. I can't agree.

All right. Just like you like, come on, man. Okay. Today is the day of silence. And we are. I'm a midnight, boys. Beah-few! Follow us on socials,

Instagram, Instagram, and TikTok save Jomi's job. Jummi's job. Jummi? Hey, we're finally got to 30K on TikTok. We're there. 40K on Instagram, 30K on TikTok, 30K on Twitter, man. We're doing our thing out here.

Appreciate you guys for following. Continue to do so. You're doing a good job over on the social. Steve, you agree? Yes. He's done it since day one. Day one. Yeah.

What's your strategy for socials? Like, how do you get people to sign up and do the whole thing? I get on this podcast, beg clearly. No, no, no, no, no, but there's got to be a different strategy than that, right? Because, like, people wouldn't just do it just because you ask, there's got to be some value for them. How you do it? The value is you guys. You know, we come out here, we make some good content. I think he laid the groundwork on the TikTok front by making some very good memes

and making some, like, out of some good sounds that we're working. Yeah. Before we went to video, yeah, it was hard. This is how I know that this is a true relationship right here. Because I asked you a question, expecting an answer from you. And I just helped them out. And your white man answered for you. Like that's a native white boy. Designated white. This looks right now like you're in the NFL draft right now. It does.

What are you looking forward to your rookie year? Well, I'm really looking forward to. He wants a team that has a 4-3 defense. For a long time. You're kind of looking, well, I tell you something right, this could be the crucial call right here. Let me take this call right. Oh, Carolina Pamp.

You're away from the cameras, Jamar. We're on YouTube. Like, comment, subscribe, share. Like, comment, subscribe, share. You can watch Midnight Boys, every episode, every episode of House of R on YouTube.com backslash at Ring Reverse. You guys can also watch a sort of other content that we do as well. If you have to do a short video essay for the YouTube,

what would it be on? What would you do? I would do it on. Siphodeus and now he's the worst Jedi of all time. That's not like totally true but it kind of is though. Okay. Because like he set the whole thing in motion. I think Anakin Skywalker is the worst Jedi

about that. Interesting. Some would argue different. Yeah. I think he's the worst Jedi ever. Like and look, some would say most people that are the worst at something they're very important at it. Yeah. Because if you're bad at something

and you don't matter then who cares? Yeah. Right. He's a very important Jedi but he's the worst Jedi ever. A useful bad Jedi. Well, yeah, no, I mean, I see a point because, like, he did do all the Clone Wars stuff, but then at the end, they kind of killed a whole bunch of children.

Killed a whole bunch of children. Yeah. And help the lie of the Jedi can kill. Also, like, generational warfare after that. Yeah. Yeah. It's tough. No arms, no legs.

It's tough. What about you, Steve? What would be your video essay if we're going to do a standalone video essays for the YouTube page? It would probably have to be how, like tradesmen and the labor force of Gotham and how that actually needs to be like, I would actually make a good political pitch

for the city of Gotham and actually try to figure it out. Like, what is this? This is interesting to me. I think it would probably have to be like infrastructure, like really good, like giving people like, I think the job market in Gotham is terrible. Okay. We talked about this last week where we were like,

okay, the goon market is insane. No, it's funny. Is you guys, you look at that like, that wouldn't be a big, big video. People would watch that. People would watch that. Yeah.

Okay, we need to give these goons jobs. Right. Like good, hardworking jobs. How do you, that's true. Yeah. Do you start building more buildings in Gotham? Outside of Wayne. Right.

What Fortune 500 companies are in Gotham? Like philanthropies or just like big like industry? No, no, no, no, no. What drives, what drives got them? Is Gotham a steel town? Is Gotham? Because Wayne is all in, all kinds of stuff. I could have sworn that it was like a big steel.

whole town. Yeah, and then like it was basically, it was kind of like, not Detroit with like the, like the auto industry, but like, it was like the fact that like a lot of those things got shipped off to other cities. I mean, you got like, uh, cord industries, uh, Ace chemicals. Oh yeah, right, yeah.

Daggard industries. Yeah, but Ace chemicals is just fucking around. Lex Corp, clean industries. Let's Corp is in Gotham. It's got probably, but let's probably got some city areas. Yeah. Uh, A Tuesday House of R will be giving you their deep dive to the Penguin finale. And oh, baby, that's a doozy.

You're not going to want to miss that one. Tune in for my sisters, Mal and Jojo and Mal, as they get to the bottom of this show. There's a lot of stuff here in the finale. Members upon us, and Min Edition will be covering Arcane and different shows

every single week this month. That's right. Big emphasis on Arcane. We're very excited. So the big emphasis on Arcane and then there's another show with Arcane. What's the other show? Oh, it's a secret.

We can't tell you. tell us what the other show is? What does it begin with? What's the first letter of the name of the show? V. V. Okay. Okay. So the first name of the show is, the first letter of the show is V. Actually, it might be, it's the legend. Let's move on. But you don't even know the letters of the show.

But on today's show, see, I got through that without getting into too many tangents, because we've got to get to this. Yes, sir. We're giving you our reactions to the season. finale of the penguin. It's time for the penguin instant reaction. We're going to start with the spoiler warning for DC, Matt Reeves Batman, Harley Quinn,

Birds of Prey, Jared Lettos Joker, the other Joker that was in the Batman for like five seconds. What's that guy's name again? Barry Keogheng. Barry Keogh, I like him. He was in The Eternals. All of that, all of these different things, we're spoiling it all right now.

If you don't want to hear it, This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those WeatherTech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer.

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Enjoying Activia twice a day for two weeks as part of a balanced diet and healthy lifestyle may help reduce the frequency of minor digestive discomfort, which includes gas, bloating, rumbling, and abdominal discomfort. Tune out. We're getting ready to talk about the penguin. You're listening to a reaction podcast. The spoilers are coming. Okay, it's time for the Midnight Manifest.

Now, last week was historically long and dense Midnight Manifest. And I'll tell you something right now. We're not going to do a replay of that, Jomey. You get in here, you get in, and you get out. Okay? Right. Like, no case in the joint. Tell you what happened.

Like a... Jomi? Tell you what happened in the episode. I'm telling you what's going to happen. I'm going to cut the manifest. Last time, the manifest was almost as dense as the episode. Jomey, get in and get out. If a lot happens in the episode, don't...

You got 30 seconds. 30 seconds. 30 seconds on the manifest. It's the series finale. Arjuna, is that unfair to see... I think you should give him 60 seconds. 60 seconds on the manifest. I can do it.

60 on the clock. I can get six minutes. All right. Minifels. Go. This is the minute I'm a minute. benefits for the series finale of Penguin, Episode 8, Great or Little Thing, directed by Jennifer Getsinger and written by Lauren Lefron. We begin with another flashback episode, shocker, as Francis tells Rex that she knows that Oz left his brothers to die.

Rex offers to take care of it for her the next night, but after Oz promises to take care of her, she calls it off. Back in the President, Sophie has Oz and his mom tied up and wants them to share their truths. Oz's mom shares hers and collapses, and he uses that as a means to escape. Sophia offers every gang in Gotham the chance to be in charge of the drug trade if they capture Oz. After an uplifting talk from Vic of all people, Oz goes to City Hall to get Councilman Hattie's help for a cover-up. Sophia Burns on a family home and is ready to jet off to Italy probably. But twist, Oz's guys kill Sophia's guys and we find out that Vic, Oz and Link have cooked up a plan that left Oz in charge of the drug trade in Gotham. Sophia is arrested and Oz goes to celebrate with his mom only to find that he has a...

stroke. Two, one. All right, we're overtime. Oz mom had a stroke. She's in her unresponsive state. Oz then kills Vic. We found Sophia back in Artham, getting a letter from her half-stitcherston and Kyle. And Oz has the penthouse that he always promised his mom all these years ago as you see a bat symbol in the sky.

There you go, Johnny. Let me give it up for a joke. Fantastic. All right. Kerm, what did you think? Great start. Bro. Jesus.

Real fucking cinema, man. Wow. I was really taken on a ride this episode all the way to the end. Like, choosing to have Vic die here is really bold. I didn't realize this was a single season of television. I thought that we were going to have multiple seasons of the penguin. So that ending had me really shocked because I'm like, where do you go from here? But again, real cinema.

Man, the entire episode, I was just like on the edge of my seat wondering, like, how this was going to play out for all these characters. Vic, Sophia, and Oz. And, I mean, we said it last week. I thought that I knew Oz would end up on top of all if he lose. And, man, he lost a lot. You know, what does it take to be the kingpin of Gotham? It's probably not worth it, but this episode of TV was spectacular. I completely agree.

It was bold. It was at times shocking, but completely, completely entertaining. And, like, an incredibly well-told final episode of television. television. Like, they're, they were kind of, like, slowing down, like, wheel-spinning moments throughout the season. But, again, if you stick the landing like this, I'm going to love your season. Did you guys get the penguin origin that you wanted? Uh, no, but, like, this was definitely one that I would have, that I loved. I mean, talk about it. I think so, right? They always talk about how grounded this world is and how... No, no, no, no, no, no. I mean, specifically

to the origin of this character, that we go from understanding, Cobb, as Oz Cobb to at the end of this, looking at him as not a completely fully formed member of Batman's Rogue Gallery, but is he the penguin to you now? Absolutely. Absolutely. Is it weird to me that I almost don't think of this as an origin story? Because not to say that these characters didn't develop or grow, but a radical change did not happen for Oz. Killing Vic made him the penguin. I kind of disagree. Give it to me. I think that he's always been this way, and he's been this way since the beginning. The only thing that actually changed is the fact that Vic grew and got closer to Oz to a dangerous degree.

The only thing that we learn so much about Oz, we learn so much about him, but the idea that he's been this way since he was 12 years old, and the only person that's going to be that important to him is in a vegetative state and a penthouse in Gotham. And the only other person that's going to get even remotely close to that goes away. When I say killing Vic made him the penguin, I don't mean necessarily that he wasn't the penguin before. Sure. And then he became the penguin, although that's how you would interpret that. I mean, for us.

Sure. Because they were going to have a problem with this character moving forward if we're just talking about the killing of Vic. No, no, not logistically, but about the fact that he was kind of the hero. of this story. There's a long sequence here or a montage in this where all of, in a very godfather esq way, where all of the heads of the families are killed. Who are they killed by? People that are overlooked that have been stepped over that have been like second class to them, right? Fantastic scene. That is a very sympathetic idea that these people were compelled to do this. this because they have been marginalized or overlooked or putting it back.

That kind of makes Oz into a hero a little bit. He is imbueing power into people that are then taking that power and like, you know, in very brutal ways, but usurping it from people that don't appreciate them. That's something that a lot of people can like identify with. His mother, that relationship in this episode, his mother stabs him. Oz is once again put in a sympathetic situation. He kills or he gives Sophia up. By the time he gives Sophia up, he doesn't kill her.

Killing Sophia, I was like at that point when he doesn't kill her, I was thinking, hmm, I'm not, I want him to be Batman. But I don't like, it was, it was weird that like they're, you're heroing, your villain and you're doing it in a way. And then he kills Vic. Right. When he kills Vic, it occurs to me. The same way, I'm sorry, I bring it up, it occurred to Tony Soprano after like season

three or four. This guy is no fucking good. No. He's just, he's no fucking good. And it doesn't matter that he has a clubbed foot. It doesn't matter that he had a tough childhood. It doesn't matter that he has a fucked up outlook and people have been stepping over him and using him.

None of that matters. he took somebody completely pure corrupted them and after he had used them for what he needed them for with his bare hands he choked them out he's pure villain

and then he took the money out of his wallet and then he brought him and stood he's a petty common thug that you can't have pain with he's a pure villain

and that to me was the moment in the show not saying anything profound that he became the ping right And it's illustrated so well for us to see something like that fully formed. Because we're watching this show waiting for him to put the top hat on in the monocle and find the thing that actually made him the penguin.

And it's actually the thing that he's been the entire time. It's just when the stakes get ratcheted up and all these people get so close within his orbit, like a magnet, it's pushed back away by the force that he is. Yeah, I think the Vick killing is. is like the main thing. But a part of Oz's journey and part of like Oz's story that I love is that we talked about every single week we talk about the show. It's his ability to to make stuff happen with his back against the wall.

He goes to the councilman's office, right? He goes to the city hall. He's sitting there. Wildly dramatic. There's a lot going on, right? And he spins a web for the councilman. It's like, brother, man, I got this whole thing laid out for you. all you got to do is keep my name out of it.

Well, he's low-key bleeding from the stomach. Right? You keep my name out of it. I set this whole thing for you. That's why when he doesn't, I wasn't surprised we didn't go Sophia because he needed a fall guy. Yeah. I knew that he wouldn't when that scene happened.

I knew that he wouldn't because he was going to give her up. I felt like that was them splitting the baby a little bit and not wanting him to be too bad. I was like, hmm, what's he going to do here? Like, what's going to happen here? Like, what's he going to do here? The situation, here's a deal. The thing with him and his brothers, I still look at that and go, that's a kid, right?

Yeah. Okay. All of the other stuff, and this happens when we're watching gangster movies, right? When we're watching gangster movies, gangster movies shift our morality. And when you're watching Blow, which you guys have never seen, like you want George to win. Yeah.

There's a part of Scarface. When you're watching it, you want Tony to win. Yeah. Like you know these characters, right? If the movie is doing this thing, you feel some sympathy for these characters. In this one where this guy has to be on the other side of good, he has to be evil. I'm like, they're fucking with it a little bit. All the things that he does inside of his world are morally defensible.

The one thing that he did this entire run that is not in any way morally defensible is killing Vic. Yeah. Like the one thing that he did, you, there's no, everything. Like the chalking it up to the game level of stuff. Like they asked for this, they did this. I give a fancy. Everything else is it was me or them or these are the rules of life that we. Everything else he did in a way is morally defensible under the constraints and in the construct, should I say, of gangsters and what gangsters do.

Sure. And what happens with gangsters. All of that's morally defensible. This is the life that they've chosen. right everybody's a soldier in this like killing him for no reason except for the fact that he loves you

like literally killing him just because he loves you I was fucking shocked I was watching it and I was like wait what is he doing? Do you think that's also a bit of odd admission of love from Oz to Vic not to say that he has to kill him

because he loves him but like he feels something for Vic that he is actually getting dangerously close to some familial tie that could be along the lines of what he feels for his mom and immediately retreat from it and decides to smother it instead of embrace it. Yeah, I mean, that's what he says. But the reality is he's choosing not to be a human being. Exactly.

Exactly. So that's when he becomes a thing, a villain, someone who you want to lose. That scene changed the way I looked at the character completely. And there are very few scenes in television history that I can point to where I'm like, that did it for me. Yeah. I thought it was brilliantly done. Do we feel a little disappointed by how Sophia ended this journey?

Not really. Not so not disappointed, but I kind of do think that they wrote herself into a corner with her. It's only because that somebody had to kind of come out on top from this. And yes, we kind of would go with our titular penguin here. But I feel we found ourselves rooting for Sophia. Did we not occasionally for this? And, like, I feel like, not to say that she deserved going off into Italy or wherever that jet was going to take her at the end, but it's odd to know that we had a sort of like second build lead here that we also found ourselves rooting for that didn't quite get the short end of the, or that didn't quite get the ending that she deserved or a catharsis that she deserved by freeing her. There's no deserve.

Sorry, not deserved, but like we would have wanted for her because she's been. fighting against a sort of thing ever only to wind back up in the same place you could argue that she did when she says she's done with the whole thing yeah and she burns down the house that's her wash her hands of all of it oh yeah right it's like y'all got it this is not the life for me i chose i chose wrong i thought i wanted to be my dad turns out being my dad makes me like it even a worse human being that i thought i could ever be makes me just like him right Actually, y'all got it. I'm a leave.

At the day, she got what she wanted, which is to be done with this business. But the penguin made the call. Again, he's the digital character. He, she's got a, somebody's got to, what is it in the National Treasure? Ben, somebody's got to go to prison. For sure.

And it's, it's my favorite line of that. Yeah. Somebody's got to go to prison. Somebody's got to go to prison. I love National Treasure. It's a great movie. I love National Treasure. We used to make movies, man.

Daylight savings time is like with the dollar bill, a dollar bill. Like, I want to go to Philadelphia and explore. You want to put a 3D glasses on the back of the Constitution? I want to go to Philadelphia and explore during the hours of 8 to 7 p.m. 8 to 2. 8 to 2.

Yeah, yeah. Because once it starts getting dusk in Philadelphia, I don't want to be there. Shout out of. to all my home. Not unless you got CR with you. Shout out to Tone Trump. CR didn't give a fuck.

Not unless CR's in town. Yo, look, look, you know, I'm in Philly. We in Philly doing the, during the rewatchables. Like, we're there. And I'm in Philly, you know, I got my hand on a swivel. I'm like. CR runs that place, though. CR is like, yo, completely different.

Like, yo, man, let me show you why I grew up. Come over there, the whole night. I'm looking around. This dark, CR doesn't give a. C.R. is. at home in his hood in Philly. We went to his old haunt, his bar, the whole nine. I literally got a text from someone.

I was like, man, should I do something in Philly? I'll never forget this. The text was like, hey, bro, stay your ass in your hotel, man. He was like, the nigs in Philly are made of two things. Testosterone and bloodlust. Jesus. Shout out to Mark Lamont Hill, Tom Trump, all my Philly people. That's crazy.

But anyhow, yeah, so. With her, I think that the orphaning of the child was supposed to be the thing that made us let go of Sophia. Because she became, to me, she was a sympathetic character. If there's one thing that the penguin maybe didn't do well, was it really, it glommed onto its leads in a way that really made you want the best for that. You did. It did. Especially for Sophia. With her, I don't think she really actually didn't deserve a better ending.

Right. But you might have wanted a better ending for her. I did. Because of the charisma of the character. It did. I did. And I think that it was, it's because she was so staunchly wanting to fight for. When she realizes too late, admittedly, that she wanted out from that life and out of the

guys of, like, being a gigante or being a falconi or being, like, a thing that would have been an echo of her father. Yeah. All of those things were trying to fight the idea of all of the, like the, you know, patriarchal mafioso shit that she despised her whole life. Yeah, it did. She was like, the fact that she was lying to men like that for her whole life. And those same guys were the ones that put her back in the cage that she started in.

It was sad. What are you doing, man? What are you doing? Just talk about the, you know, we got to talk about the shows. Did I bring it down? Did I bring the grim mafia show down? Gloria Steinem over here. We can just talk about the fucking...

I don't think that's out of bounds at all. No, I get it. This is why I feel like she should have killed Oz's girlfriend. Why? Oh. So we don't get that weird ending scene? We will talk about that.

We talk about that as well. I feel like I'm watching the show when she goes to interrogate Oz's girlfriend, she was teetering on the edge. She's Sophia. Sophia's teetering on the edge, holding on to it. She leaves. She spares her.

She gets the information that she wants, right? I thought for Sophia to make her villain turn, which I guess they don't want her to do, they want one asshole, which was Oz. For her to, for us to be really not to care that she went back to jail, or that she didn't get what she wanted, she had to kill Oz's girlfriend right there.

She had to become the hangman. She never did. She didn't want to. She had to become the hangman. When Sophia, when the cops rode up on Sophia, I felt bad. But there's this interesting thing because, like, I did. Yeah.

But it's Sophia's compassion. She's like, I'm bigger than that. I'm not going to kill the person that's not, like, that didn't do me wrong or is advantageous. And there's a weird thing that, like, Oz isn't with wholly without compassion, but it's only, as we learn, I disagree.

Beneficial to him. I don't think that he has any compassion. I think that he's advantageous. I think that he's a computer. He'll play it, though. I think he's a computer. I think he does what's in his best interest at one point. If his best interest to make somebody believe that he has compassion for,

he'll do it. Exactly. He has bad compassion for somebody. He would have killed it. And that's ultimately what I mean. That's a hate crime. Like, take the last $12 out of his wallet. That's a hate crime.

And then you rob him. Literally, he had a couple bucks. Rob him, throw his shit. That's a hate crime. I ran that back a couple of times. Like, my God. Yeah, that's rough. Did that just happen?

And he feigns emotion in that scene. And maybe it didn't mean something. And it might have. It might have generally been like hurtful for him to do it. But even behind all that, there's still the darkness in him that we saw in that moment where it's like, you say you love this guy. You're actively saying how much that guy means to you, and yet your hands are around his throat. And he's like, you're a good guy, and I can't have that.

Taking the last air from his breath. Like, that's nuts. Okay. So we get some Batman stuff here, Batman-y stuff. Get two. Two. A letter from Selena Kyle, your half-sister. Right.

Very nice letter. Oh, it looked great. Colligraphy. In a little cold, a whole deal. Selena took her time. Yeah. All right. Letter from Selena Kyle.

And then we're going to talk about the dance real quick. But before we get to the dance, right. After the dance, who is going to stop you now? The back and the signal goes up into the sky. Right. Okay. We weren't going to get Batman. Of course, right?

This is in the Batman universe. I'm very glad that we did. In the Batman universe, I'm not. You're not. You're not happy that we didn't have Batman invading this show. I would have loved to have seen Batman. Ain't got Batman When would you have liked to see Batman in this show?

Now that the season's over When would you have like to see him? Okay, do you remember how Gotham ended? No. Yes, I do remember how Gotham They just showed that kind of... They outright showed like a 12-year-old In a Batman costume.

Well, it was, I don't know if he was 12, but I think they flashed forward in Gotham And it showed Batman, that bitch was bootleg as hell. It was not great. It was actual hockey pads. It was bad, bad, bad, bad. Shout out to Gotham because that show was good when it was good, but that shit was bootleg as hell.

I thought that like if they would have just, when I say show Batman, even the way they did there, they did the bad signal in the sky. But what if Batman would have been like on a gargoyle like across the street just perched and over his shoulder? Yeah, but that's it could have been anyone. Kind of like anytime the Robert Patterson. It's like peacemaker when they got like Superman, but it's actually Superman. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Over his shoulder. And Batman could even make a little. Huh. Like, you think nobody that's, you think nobody can stop you. No,

hold on. Or Alfred, or Alfred, what if Alford would have been in it? Andy Circus showed up. Andy, if Andy were getting you

15 minutes, my boy. By way, we didn't need it. We didn't need it. It's good. How do you guys feel about the

Batmaniness that we did get? I think it's just to remind us where we are. You know what I mean? Just remind us like paying with these on top now. He thinks he's got it all figured out. Remember,

there's the big boy in the sky. He's coming back. I think the moral the more sequel baity thing was the letter from Selena. Because that implies that there's going to be something that that's like a narrative thread that needs to be pulled on. Well, it is. He's his sister.

I know. I understand that. It's the only family she's got left. Exactly. And it makes me feel that like, oh, would we see that happen in Batman too? Maybe. I mean, it would be kind of interesting to see Selena go into Arkham and then have like kind of how in the first one where it's the Riddler and Batman having that little

conversation in the interrogation or whatever. it's Selena and Kristen Malady and they're just going back and forth. It can be interesting. Maybe that's where they're going with that. I saw the bat signal as like a garnish. You know?

It's unnecessary. It's just it's there. Just take that. Nice little touch. Zesta lemon. So I thought when it popped up there to Jomi's point,

I was like, oh, okay. This is not a gangster story set in some Elsworld's place, somewhere else. That's Colin Farrell. Which I completely forgot throughout the course of the season. Man, he was doing his thing, man. Which I completely forgot.

Cook, the king, the course of the season. That's Colin Farrell. That is the penguin. This is Batman. The penguin never put his top hat on. He had it. He had it. He saw it.

He saw it. Never put his top hat on. No umbrella. No umbrella. No monocle. He looked at the part. At the vest. Yep.

At the vest. Good vest. Good suit. The whole deal. He's upgraded to the Rolls Royce. All right. I believe him as the penguin. Yeah.

And the number one way to make me believe him as the penguin is to let us know that Batman is out there. Yeah. Or killing a kid and by a river for no reason. I mean is to believe that he's the character. Oh, sure, sure. He exists in the world where Batman exists. Yes. When he was smiling in that suit, I was like, did they elongate his nose a little bit more?

I'm like, he's looking at extra penguin-y right now. Yeah, he's penguin-out. Penguin-out. Mom is in a coma. Okay. Are we talking about that? What is he seen yet or no? Let's talk about the beginning, right?

when they're in the little, they're in the theater, whatever, the dance hall. Right. And she, they find out, or Oz finds out

that he, she knew the entire time that he killed his brothers. Right. And that she always hated him for it. And she always despised him his entire life. All that love, all that admiration was fake.

It was all for Gaze. I hate you. That was, again, and this is why you talk about like, Oz, the compassion for Oz. I felt bad for him.

in that little sequence because we talked about it last one. Oh my God, yeah. That's all he had was his mom. And here's the other thing. There's this very good narrative conceit that this could be

her dementia or her disease like upgrading that anger from what she had. A very good thing that the show did. I want to quick talk about in the dance hall that flashback that we had under the guise of that red light therapy where

it's our older actor playing this while all of these younger like young Oz is there, Rex is there. You see like on the stage there's that pulsing red light and the scene stops and the therapist is trying to like keep her going through this story. And it's her perception of all these things about like, it may or may not have actually been what happened, but it's what she felt or what she thinks she felt at her old age and her like withering mind that the anger of losing her kids

while having to prop up this thing that she thinks is a monster brilliantly illustrated in a crescendo that comes from just wanting to stab him and finish it to just get out of this like mental purgatory. And that's why I feel like the Vic strangling, it's like surprising in the moment when you like really think about it. All right, but the one person who I knew, I knew love me. Right.

I love me. May none of this matter. Well, no, it never mattered, but now that my mom don't even mess with me. But it's even further informed by the fact that he keeps her. He keeps her in the penthouse. He doesn't, he keeps the idea of her. Exactly. Her husk.

Let me ask you this. Did she know this whole time that she hated him? Or did she, did they help her realize that she hated him? Could that have just been sussed out of her because of that therapy? What I'm saying is she wanted him killed earlier on. Sure. Yes. it didn't happen.

Shout out to Rex who had a little moral. Rex was like, hey, we can do something else, put him to work. That's kind of a whole Dexter thing. Y'all remember Dexter? When it was good? Sure. Okay. So,

Dexter, surprise, motherfucker. It peaked right there. Apple pies, motherfucker. Roodie's, motherfuck. Do you remember? So I always wondered this with Dexter, right? Because I'm just going to say this. Okay.

I had some family members, some younger family members. I was watching them one time. And, you know, it was three brothers. They're kids. Right. One of them was getting the spanking as kids in the South Dew. One of the brothers cried. Oh, I think you told this story.

Right. Yeah. And the other brother laughed. And I was always like, got to watch him. Watch that one. What's wrong with this little motherfucker right here? what's his problem? Why is he laughing at the pain of his brother?

Dexter was in his yard killing. His dad finds him. And his dad says, rather than kill random people, you'll kill bad people. I've always wondered, if I ever happened on to a kid who's doing something like that, do I have the wherewithal to use their malicious murder skills for good?

Well, I mean... Because this is what Rex did. Rex said, hey, this little kid's a killer. He has no moral central of the center, sociopath. Use him for good. Mom wanted him to take it out right there. Well, congratulations, Van Lathan.

You're Batman. Why is that? Robin, Damien Wayne. But he's not going to kill him. He's going to kill him. He's going to flip. But he's like, I'm going to use this. I'm going to use this anger. I guess. I think the Rex is his son.

Yeah. Oh. Oh, don't know. Huh? Kind of. What kind of a dad do you think encourages those instincts? But he's not a murderer. A new segment is Steve spitting.

Because I don't know if you are right now. Do you think he's a... I feel you. The general idea. I'm trying to feel you even more. Are you spitting right now? You might be spitting. He's leaning into his son's anger-driven instincts

to make him something that he wants for him. So then you think that Bruce Wayne slash Batman actually likes the fact. Oh, no, doesn't like the fact. He realizes that... Can use the fact. That Damien is a murder machine and he's activated him.

He doesn't want... He just points it in the direction that he likes. He's a... This is a Dexter situation. Huh. Or Rex situation. Or... Rex is not his dad.

A Francis situation. But even Rex was like, these guys, they need a father. Yeah. And Rex was like, he don't need... That kid don't want a father. He need a mother. Hey, uh, and that's you.

so we might have to do the other thing. Yeah, what do you want from him? Yeah. How do you want to point him? Exactly. So then what do we feel like Ma's life was then? Was her life looking, why did she do it? She goes from wanting to kill her son who either accidentally or on purpose

killed his brothers or do we know? I think her purpose. Remember, she finds the flashlight. She's like she knew where he was the whole time. And the thing is everybody in the room on this. did he not to cut you off the scene no you're good

well it was just illustrated by the fact that the reason that she stayed her hand and told Rex to back off is because the fact that he still saw that it was her little boy and the fact that she wanted to see if she can steer that in the right direction and she keeps trying and trying and trying did Oz's mom

did oh forget about did Oz kill his little brothers on purpose it's yeah yeah yeah yes yes he did I'm still not certain that he did. I know I'm by the way, I'm not holding on so I'm not, so I'm not wrong

about this. I said this last episode. It's still unclear to me whether or not he knew that he was killing them when he turned the thing. It's the fact that he had every opportunity to own up to it or confess or stop it, but he just looks out in the rain.

Stopping it is one thing, but did he know that they would die from being in the sewer? Yeah. Where are y'all at? I was saying he at least doesn't care. And so they give like the background of earlier in that episode where we get that flashback of how he's enviously watching his brothers get love from his mom.

Right. To the point where it's like clearly something is so detached that he could go as far. It's just locking them in there. And a good point to be made. It's not that they were assholes to him. But they were. But they were though. So, so look, he did.

The only reason why I'm saying this is because he did it on impulse. Yes. It wasn't his idea to go down there. It wasn't his idea to do any of that stuff. They went down there and he was like, you know I can't come down there. And they're like, we're sorry. Like, we were just trying to... I know.

He locked the door out of spite, which is something that a kid would do. Yeah, but at the same time, and you talked about it last week, he shoots, oh boy in the first episode, just off rip. It's not about guilt. It's not about shame. It's more like, you wrong me. Another impulse kill. Whatever, whatever happens, you happens to you. Exactly.

And I'm gonna be alright at the end of the day. Right. That's what it comes down to for our... Alea, did you watch it? No, sorry. You don't give a fuck. Arjuna, your thoughts? On the, if he killed his brothers or not?

If he killed his brothers on purpose. Yeah. I think the show reads that way for sure. So in that sense, then, that makes his relationship with mom even more interesting because she knows that he killed her two kids. She's talked into him having some sort of utility. Yeah. by Rex.

Yeah. They have a relationship for decades after that. Yeah. Like, kind of why? She, I mean,

because she thinks that she wants to try to steer that into something good. As much as that can be twisted. It's not being a driver for the, to getting the penthouse, right? Yeah. Oh, so she was,

that's the thing. Yeah. Give it me the nice things. Give it the nice things. Because again, like, it's not like she's living in a neighborhood where she's like got the, she's doing books for people like Rex.

Right. She's doing all that stuff. The only reason why I bring this up is because I think this is one of the most interesting threads in the show. And also because he didn't have her really living that nice. No. You would have thought that their relationship

was based upon something more substantial than the lifestyle he could provide to her because the lifestyle he was providing to her didn't seem to be that enviable to me. It wasn't. But then we flash forward to him and Sophia and her. And he's, willing to damn near let her

pinky get chopped off because he's not going to admit the truth to his mom. Yeah, he can't do that, right? He can't. But then he finds out that she knew all the time and she hated his guts and it's starting to like, she collapses that he finally's like, all right, let's get out of here, let's figure this thing

out. She stabs him, dog. She stabs him. Not Sophia, not Dr. Julian Rush for all the people. We know his name is not just shades. All right. It's him. But he's shades. It's the mom that stabs him and that's just, that's tough. Jay took his old job back at Arkham.

That's crazy. That's nuts. How did he get that job back? How did he get his job? I'm guessing things aren't really above board. It's not to be the worst like that. Arkham's the worst prison in the history of prisons. It's not just a bad prison.

It's a bad institution. Oh, my goodness. Again, Gotham, page one rewrite about all the institutions. Guy leaves to go join criminal organizations. organization wants his job back. He's obviously obsessed with this prisoner. He obviously has some kind of obsession with the prison. Clearly has an obsession with the prisoner.

Dr. Julian Rush let him back in right there. He wants to be with Sophia. Oh, you're on sabbatical? What are you doing? I don't worry about it. What's happening at Arkham, man? If I was putting charge of Gotham, these are the first three things I would clear. All right.

What's your platform? All right, number one. I'm mayor of Gotham. Mayor. Oh, boy. This is the first thing. Mayor Van Latham. Mayor Van Lathen of Gotham.

First of all, I'm never coming to my office. Sure. Good move. By the way, who's your district attorney real quick? I'm not sure. Okay. I'm not sure who I put in charge. That's very important.

I'm never coming into the office. I am. Work remote. Remote. Remote. Remote peritropolis. It's like an underground safe somewhere where whatever. It's all on Zoom.

I'm never coming into the office. I'm not about the fuck over me. Okay. Number one, I have to address infrastructure. Of course. Yes. In our city here in Gotham, things are consistently getting blown up by different people. We have clowns, face bidlers. We have penguins.

We have to make sure that we reinforce our infrastructure. Of course. And get the city of Gotham, our bridges, our roads. Our schools. Our schools. Hospitals. Make these first race. Thank you so much.

Half the city is underwater, Mr. Mayor. Well, it was underwater under the old regime. Right. Yes. And not only was it underwater, literally. I would say who was underwater figuratively. When I look out to the streets of Gotham,

I see a lot of people who are underwater. I see a lot of people who are doing their best to swim, to just keep their heads above water. And if you vote for me, Van Lathen, from Mayor of Gotham, I'll make sure that you not just swim, that you'll have a boat. And if you have a boat, then you'll have a yacht. And if you have a yacht, you have a cruise ship.

That's not just you will be able to get on your cruise ship. Everyone in your entire yacht, your entire neighborhood will be able to float to a better future in Gotham with me as your man. Go for change. Go for me. Or for someone that can take out these superfoods. Infrastructure and we have to reform the mental health situation in Gotham. Schools probably too. You would have put that first?

What? The mental, the institutions, you got to put that first. It's a really tough place to start. I double dip. Okay. Because the infrastructure money is going to help me actually divert some more. money to Arkham. Yes.

Right. But we got to have a full staff change. All right. But you got to, I mean, we need to fully clean house at Arkham. All right. Van Leighton.

And we're going to enact mental health. I want to identify the Joker's early. I'm going to start satellite mental health buildings in every different borough of Arkham. And if I see a motherfucker even playing with some motherfuck up, you're out. This is the last thing I'm going to run on. Right.

Okay. This is the way we deal with the Batman. And we don't see it. We don't see it. We don't see it. We don't see it. All right. I pretend I do not see.

And there's one last thing that's Mary, we can end this bit. Right. The moment the shit gets too hot, I just want to let you guys know, I'm out. The mayor quits? I'm resigning. I just want to, like, when some villain comes on TV and goes, all right, so let's ballpark on. It's time for 12 terror days in Gotham.

I'm going to blow up a different fucking, fucking whole foods every day. Like, Pip, you'll change me. You'll be Magic Jocelyn, right? I'm not going to be here. No, I'm not going to be there. I've done a lot. I feel like we've gone a lot of places. It's been 30 days, Mr. Man.

It's been six weeks. Here's the deal. I don't, I like Whole Foods. And there are a lot of things where this kind of stuff isn't happening. So I'm done. I tried to help you guys out. Batman's got you. Elected Mayor.

Electim Mayor. I'm out. Thank you very much, Gotham. Love you guys. Y'all got it. Y'all got it. I got. I'm crazy.

Y'all. Appreciate it. Hey, that's nuts, man. So, speaking of this, elongated, terrible, long tangent bit, but we like it. Speaking of this,

our Gotham City. We've talked about our Gotham City. Now we know it. Now we know our Gotham. We know it. We know it. It's over. It's done.

What did the show Penguin tell you about this iteration of Gotham? This is, we get a way better sense of the city. We've talked about this before. on the show from this show than we did from the movie. What impressions do you have of this Gotham and the way things work? I've seen a lot of little people lose

and that really, really gets to me. I think it's, I mean, dirty, grimy, just completely out of order. And I frankly, with the absence of Batman, I think Gotham is worse than, like, it seems on the surface, right? Because in all the Batman stories, there's something happening in Gotham. Batman's there to save you.

Batman's going to save you from the drug dealer. Batman's going to save you from the stick up. They don't have this. People die all the time, B, in this guy. Kids die all the time. People get blown up. A bliss thing that's blown up. Kids get shot like the entire thing happens.

There's no Batman coming to save you. You know, it's grim. It is depressing. And frankly, it's just completely like, it's a complete understanding of, oh, no. like there is like sometimes there's a back signal what will batman mean to this city because it doesn't seem like everything yeah everything when you know that guy's coming to to save you or that like oh my kids can't be out on the street because uh the the ground might open up one day because of an explosion you know what i mean we see the govom without bad man

this is i mean this is the worst we've ever seen it clearly like it's never been this bad unless pain was blowing up bridges and sending all the cops in the ground or whatever. For sure. But aside from that, like on a regular, regular basis, this is as bad as I've ever seen the Gotham on TV. Yeah, it's, yeah, it's, it's dirtier, it's like, it's more mean-spirited, it's

there's a, there's a moment, I think there's a great shot actually. Like, after the like, as the title card drops, you see, uh, it's like a POV from like the cameras on top of the car, yeah, the gangster's car. And he's like making a left and then, he's making a right, and then you see the, like,

pillar of smoke next to, like, what it looks like to be, like, the beginnings of downtown. Yeah. And a sense of place is hard to get unless you see a shot like that. And with shots like that, I see him like, oh, man, this fucking city is so tangible and so downtrodden. And after everything that we've seen and every person that we've, like, been like, again, it makes it so that I believe when Oz says,

says something like everybody's been trot upon all you want to do is fill your stomachs and fill your pockets you grew up with everything you never appreciate people that live with nothing anybody would want to suppress that at that point I don't need to know what he said to

those gangsters in the back of that escalade to get him on his side by the time they come and kill Sophia's men that's how desperate Gotham is. Vick and Link shout out Link you mentioned like the episode looking out for Vic by the That's another thing.

Vic literally saved Oz's life. Yeah, I mean, he's done it multiple times, but I think this one was... This is the most. For sure. Great in particular because that first part of the episode after the title drops, Vic's like, yo, y'all not going to help. And then he gets hit by Link. Link's like, hey, hey, pal.

Chill. Chill out. You're going to get yourself hurt. Because the guy was ready to pop him. Yeah. It's like, chill out. Then he gets the call from Link, and they formulate the plan. Because you thought for sure that Vic was going to betray him.

I thought Link was setting him the fuck up. Yeah. I thought Link was setting him up right there. I did not believe. I thought that they were, I thought that they were telegraphing a double cross. Yeah, exactly. As if I thought that it was basically played that way

to make us believe that Link was going to double cross him and then that he would double cross Link. Sure, sure, sure. That he would have the upper hand. But the moment Oz granddadder, I'm like, oh shit, it's up. But when they shot a boy, like the triad leader, I was like, oh, snap. Yeah. So I go down.

You mentioned earlier, the godfather, though, like, popping everybody, that was, that's cinema, man. They got a ball out of there. How do you think Link going to feel when he realizes Vic is dead? Probably not too bad. He's, like, he's got the whole Falcone empire. He's a triad leader. Yeah.

Cost of a kid, so what? Oh, no, not Vic. You know. What did Vic mean to our show? He was the heart, right? he was the emotional center right we see him lose his entire family like everybody um in uh one of the beginning one of those episodes early episodes and we know that sophia uh we we know that sophia is terrible panglin oz is out of his way to know that he's a terrible human being but vick was supposed to be

the person you know that we didn't want it like we're watching him get corrupted but we still wanted to see him get saved right hopefully there's a way out of this like life somehow. You know, we know it's tough with everything going on in Gotham. You got to find a way to survive. But at the end of the day, we want to see him living his best life

outside of this bubble and he never got out of it. Yeah. And it's like Oz said it himself, you're a good guy and it's not built for good guys. It's funny. He's a good guy, but he had,

he's become a criminal. Yeah. Right? It's kind of the thing the show has to kill. We talked about once again. The show has to kill that idea of someone who, uh,

has maintained a likability or a moral center in this deal. You can't be Vic and go on and be a Batman villain. I'll ask you this. The character itself was it an actual character or was it a means of emotionally manipulating us? So think about it. You have a youthful looking kid with a stutter that finds his power over the course of this entire show. Yeah.

Did Vic only exist in this show to be killed by Oz? Um, no. Was there anything else that we learned from the character? Yeah. Was that, was that character strictly and solely there to be sacrificed so that Oz can become the people? I don't think so. I think it speaks to what, like I said earlier, like how down bad trodden, uh, Gotham is,

right? That he has to come to Oz and he has to do all this. activity just to, you know, just to wake up tomorrow, you know, just have something to live for. Um, like, I, I think I'm gonna, like, again, a generous cop, but I think about what if Jesse Pinkman never got out of that hole? If Walt never saved him. And if Jesse's sacrifice was only just to let, like, if Walter wasn't too proud, would he have still let Jesse live? Would he, like, Would that not have been his demise? We're happy that Jesse Pinkman got out

because he ultimately got his sunset and his happy ending. Yeah, Jesse's... But if Jesse becomes... At the end of the day, Jesse becomes the saving grace of Baker and Brickman is completely different. Exactly. He's a moral center.

He's a heart that got out of that. I see Vic as somebody that's kind of like Pinkman dipping back into something that he's not ready for, that he never was ready for. and he can't maintain that with somebody like Oz. Like, Oz is the blackest of that heart and can't ever get out of those scenarios. Like, he will forever be ensnared with that.

I liken him to Jesse because he was fortunate enough to get out. But, like, he was this close to just being like Vic. I'll tell you this. The writers did fuck us with Vic. You think so. They had to. They had to be one. For sure.

The writers, Vic is an Illuminati blood sacrifice. Right. He is. Like every single thing, every single moment that we see Vic, we see Vic having a panic attack, we see Vic going through love,

we see Vic doing things that he, it's not in him to do, killing people. We see Vic rising to the occasion with the cops. everything that we see Vic do over the course of this show is simply for us to feel when he is killed. It is no different than Teeths and floor. And floor. Oh, my God.

It's no different than them. Teeths and floor, they're sitting down and they land on. You're my bestest friends. I'll never watch it again. When I tell you, I'll never. I'll never look at it again. I believe you. I'll never watch the movie again. So shout out to everybody that can watch

Guardians of the Galaxy 3 multiple times. I'll never look at it again. Sure. So those characters that you're there, they're there to make Rocket hole. Yeah. But essentially only exist to, we see this all the time, right?

Only exist to Rocket, the dog. Vic is the dog in John Wick. I mean, I see, I mean, he is. He's like, sure, sure. But no, but I mean, it doesn't serve that purpose, though, because, like, we don't, when the dog and John Wick dies, we're like, yo, John get active. Yeah. Like, it's time to turn.

Not when you first saw it. When you first saw it, you didn't know what the fuck people were talking about. Okay, fair. The dog actually, when you first saw it, the dog turned him into John Wick. Right. So you're saying. Yeah, so it was like, when you, when I first saw it, I was like, oh, they're scared of this guy. And then he jumped over the railing and started fucking people up.

I was like, oh, right? So you knew that he was a badass motherfucker, but the dog activated him. The dog made him John Wing. And Vic is essentially that to me. In a roundabout way, because normally those things, like, they die by somebody else's hand in the protagonist, then has to go kill them to exact their revenge.

But in this sense, it's Oz killing Vic so that the penguin. So that Oz can finally fly the coup, which we've already discussed, not to retread it, but I'm just saying, does that mean that Vick's character in the show? So to your point, I think it's an interesting take that his character exists to show just how easily that every man in Gotham can be corrupted. And then how they get it? How do you read the character? I read it similar to that.

I think it's more so the dichotomy of like just how different Oz is from everyone around him. Vic is the good-hearted gangster, if we could call it that. Sophia is a person in seeking redemption in some way, personal. She's desperate. She's desperate for redemption. And, you know, roundabout way of trying to find it and ultimately gets it too late. But Oz is something completely different. It's without that remorse.

And yes, we feel it, and we feel it because we try to empathize with everything that Oz could be up until this point. Yeah. We can understand everything that he is up until this point. I think the Vic thing, and I understand where you're coming from, but to me, I don't know if it's a better comp,

but the more interesting cop is kind of like when you're a team on the cuss. You get a bunch of young players, right? And you got to make that trade. And you've been, like, having so much on with these young kids. Like the Lakers, when, like, Lonzo and Bandon, Ingram and Josh Hart, having a great time. All these young kids, you got to go get AD, right? And so you got to send those young guys. You love them.

They got to go. Yeah. You know, and even though it's tough, you're not killing them. It's tough to see them in their uniform. God damn. It's tough to see him. You say Vic is Lonzo Ball? Kind of.

God damn. Wow. That's tough. Bull season 2024. Vick is Lonzo Ball? I mean, how long to take them to get the shooting right? You know what I mean? Lonzo is a player.

I hate on Lonzo. I love Lonzo. Don't do that. I love Lonzo. I love Brandon Ingram. I love Josh Hart. But you want to get it. You want to win championships.

You got to get AD. Yeah. See, your brother. They all like skin, too. Not Ingram, but the other two. I see. Three of them kind of, if you put those three guys together, they do kind of make you look like a little Vickish.

A little Vickish. A little Vickish. Look I'm going to ask this question It's not a question I want to ask But you got to do it Okay Also want to fuck his mom

It's a It's a perverted thing I'm asking like No no no you had a curb Absolutely I think So we get the I thought we were against the exercise I thought we were against the

I'm not against the exercise you really got to think about it. Like, I think Kerm is making a good way. The flashback scene we see where she's like, oh, we're going out tonight. And she's in like the shiny dress. He eyeballs her, like checks her up and down. If you watch that scene back, then the fact that you're your hooker girlfriend, you want her to dress exactly like your mom.

That's the one. And that same fucking dress and give her, give you all the affirmations that your mom never could. Like, it's getting weird. That's the one where. It's getting real goony. That's all I'm saying. That's the one where I, It lost me because you can, you know, like, there's a lot going on.

You mentioned the dress and the entire thing in the flashback. And you can even, you can at best chalk it up to like, you know, hey, his mom's had a good time. He might die tomorrow, you know what I mean? He loves his mom. Who doesn't love their mom like, cray, you know what I'm saying? And then you have the dance at the end with this, oh, girl. She's cosplaying as his mom. She's acting like his mom.

She's out of hair like the mom. I'm honestly, now the funniest line of the... Now it's time to go at that point, brother. The funniest line of the season now is when Sophia's talking to her and he's like, he's not that complicated. I mean, it's not complicated. It's just gross and asking weird. And by the way, you know, I look at Oz in a certain way,

but I also look at her in a certain way too, man. Come on, man. Bag is a bag. Bag is a bag. Bag is a bag. She don't live in that nice pay house. No. She got bills to pay.

And frankly, run down penthouse. You know what I'm saying? Well, I mean, the penthouse is a bag. Bag is a bag? Bag's a bag. In Gotham? How far is this go with you guys? In Gotham?

Pretty far. No, no, no, I'm asking. No, I mean, what am I got to do? Bag is a bag is a bag. We got to stop the pot because what are we talking about? Like, wow. A bag is a bag is a bag. What do you got to do?

Wow. It's getting weird. She got to do. What do I have to do? What do a meal? Take that, take that. Cheel on him. Damn.

Damn. You ever see that clip? No, you haven't seen that. You haven't seen it. That's funny. Sorry, I got a shot too. You're going to have. Bags are back.

Bags a bag. What wouldn't you do? Show all of these. So you got to say a bag to back. So right now, if someone offered you, let's say, 10 million. 10 million. To show hold on a midnight. boys, 10 million.

We would get demonetized. I wouldn't be, though. So I'm monetized. I'm monetized. I don't know if you're talking about 10 million. 10 million? I don't know for 5 million. I am monetized.

You'd show whole. For 5 million? For 5 million? I don't give a fuck. 5 million? 5 million? I don't know. Bag is a bad.

Bag is a bag. Uh, would you show hole with a bright blinking butt plug in? Five million. Five million? I don't know. Okay, why much does it cost? I mean, so the show, Hole originally was 10.

Yeah. So another five on that. What colors? What colors are the... Whatever colors. It's like a blue or whatever. It's like rainbow roads, know I'm saying? You talked about this show.

Real quick, Penguin has a hole. Before we get to the midnight meter. Right. Gas or ass? I mean... More gas. Definitely more gas than ass. Total gas.

Doesn't gas come from ass? It's true. Gas does come from ass or gas comes from your stove. That's true. I turned on my stove and it was nothing but the penguin. Stop pluck. It was plucky. Yeah, no, it was gas.

It was gas. It was gas. What do you think the show overall does? Forget about what I talked about is deepening the universe. What do you think the show does for the Matt Reeves, Batman universe? Does this show mean that you want more of this stuff?

You want to see more of this. There's something happening right now at D.C. Where James Gunn is obviously getting his movies ready to bring them to the beat. Yeah. Yeah. Now, that is something that everyone's going to have a tremendous amount of anticipation for. Tremendous amount of anticipation for James Gunn's DC universe.

Okay. I'm sure that the people at Warner Brothers love to have a hit. They love to have a thriving universe. But I doubt in terms of the Elseworld's Matt Reeves universe, I doubt if James Gunn is thrilled with sharing cultural, space with another Batman. I'm almost certain that he doesn't want that. Don't shows like this.

Just increase the competition. They show that there's so much meat on the bone for this universe in this world. Doesn't it make it hard for you to turn away from not just wanting Batman 2, but maybe wanting Batman 3 or another Batman show? Or another, don't you want more?

Don't you want to know a little bit more about Catwoman? Wouldn't a Catwoman show be sexy and amazing and daring and fantastic? Doesn't this type of creative success not only up the ante for what James Gunn is doing, but also put a little pressure on them? Yes and no, I think because you could make the argument that, oh, this was great because it was on TV and we should make more TV Batman shows, not the movies. Let's just stick to Penguin and Catwoman and Gotham Central.

All that stuff. Still a different universe though. Yeah. Yeah, but it's on TV. It's not the, you don't, like, you're not going to theaters to watch. Yeah, but Gunn'll want to dip into TV. He's got peacemaker. He's got all of his things.

Like, he'll have that. Started on TV. Exactly. And I think. Or the suicide squad, which, I guess. Well, no, it was, I mean, it was, you know, pandemic times. Yeah, yeah, sure. So that would have been in theaters to the point.

I don't, I don't think Gunn wants to give that much real estate, if any, to Matt Reeves. I think that he is respectfully letting this, this, this, Batman 2 happen, and then we will probably not see much more again. Man, that's really 8 or 8, though. I know, but it seems to be, like, I only slightly understand, only because they want the sort of, I think, like, brand recognition and playbook of, we're going to do this one thing. Anytime you see a DC product in the theaters or on your television screen,

it's going to be in this world, in this universe, with this palette. And this is kind of muddying the waters. bit, which, to be fair, in the Snyderverse, we had this problem almost all of the time. Everything was a soft reboot. Everything was a different this. Everything was never connected to that. Now that James Guns got the wheel, he's like, all right, well, we got the one Batman thing that everybody really, really likes. And that's a real good, like, thing to hit your wagon to, at least for a while we get something out the door for the rest of the stuff.

So I'm guessing that this will probably be the last, if not one of the last Matt Reeves things that we see. Man, I don't know. I mean, because if Batman 2 comes out in 2026 and it's that gas. It likely would be. So then I even be like, yeah, we're just not making those anymore. Well, it just, it all, of course, you guys know how I feel about this. I don't think they're going to want to. Yeah.

Meaning, I think gun at some point is going to drop his nuts. He wants to do the brave and the bowl. He wants it to be one back. Batman. It doesn't work well. A Batman on the big screen and a Batman on television, to your point, maybe. Two Batman movies is probably just, it's a lot of the marketplace, right? So definitely, when is the Braving the Bulls supposed to come out? That's like 2027. Yeah. So who knows how much stuff Matt Reeves can get done by them? Probably not much. It's 2025 in a couple of months, right? And Batman.

the Batman is until 2026, right? Yeah, 2026. This is early 2037, late 2026 for Brave and the Bold. Okay, so you're going to have two movies coming out if that production schedule holds pretty close to one another. Yeah, and by that point, if you're making more things in the Batman universe with the Matt Reeve side, that's just going to go on

for way too long. If the second Batman movie comes out and it makes a billion dollars, it's always hard to turn money down. Sure. But you would see, strife and angst between filmmakers and parts of it that would be very difficult to contain and not get out there. Absolutely.

And it could be tough because like what if Batman 2 does good and then like Batman 3 I want to include this character and you know, what's his name? James Gunn's like actually I want them for this thing. You know what I mean? Who takes priority? James Gunn probably is a guy with the headset on. He makes a call. No, of course.

So it becomes a little difficult. And he mixed a bunch of projects when he first got the keys. Well, I mean, that was, they were just handing out projects like they were coming at that point. I know, which, you know, you needed to cut some weeds. I get it. It's time for it. The midnight meter. Yeah.

All right. You guys know how it goes. One to ten. However, something can be rated in 11 or 12 if it is, in fact, a game changer. I'm going to start. I'm going to give it a 10. That's pretty great. Turns good.

It's good. I'm going to give it a 10. Not going to go game changer. Not yet, but I am going to go a very, very flawless season of television. I'm going to give it a 10. I can't go 11 or 12. Sure. All right, but I'm going to give it a 10.

So you guys can go whenever you like. I would give this a 9. Okay. I think it's near flawless. I think there were maybe a couple of things that just weren't as strong as the show at its heights. And to keep that level of quality is incredibly high, but this was wonderful to watch.

This is killer. It's great. 10 out of 10. Great. I think this is a perfect time. Preventing it from being a game changer then. What does it? Is it time?

Is it Panash? You know, I mean, maybe it's time. You know, I think in episodes of like perfectly curated TV, I think. I've seen shows with, you know, more stuff going on. Like, this show is very linear, very, like, short. One thing happening, it's easy to get those things right versus, you know, show with, like, 13 episodes and a whole bunch of stuff going on. You know what I'm saying?

Like, the difficulty rate, I think, on this show. Like, I guess you can argue, like, oh, it's for the penguin, who cares really? But I think the MacRee's universe. That's my thing. It's as good as a show about the people could be. And that's my main question, because, like, those who weren't aware, like, we gave and or the likes of that, like, we gave that a 12, like, immediately after that season finale.

It's just different. And it's just different. And it's like it's those little things that keep it from, keeping it a 12. Yeah, it's like the end, but the- Still amazing. I know, the scope of Andor, the depth of Andor. You know what?

I'm gonna put. We gotta put a moratorium on moratorium on mentioning that. I understand. Because we're on Andor's and D's nuts. We're on Andor's balls, man. We got to stop being on Andor's balls, man. Are we going to work the entire podcast? We are so on Andor's nuts.

Everybody on Andor's dick wagon. Guess what? You got to get off the fucking shit. Get off the dick. Hold on because Arjuna don't want to send us to Star Wars celebration in Japan in 2025. What? I'm saying? That's not.

That's not. Star Wars, if you're listening, look, we'll keep mentioning. We'll keep mentioning it. You send us to Japan. No, nigger, only you are for sale. Yeah. Right now, we just earned the. Krispy Cream Podcast Award for

Glaze on Andor. Gaze on. Glace on Andor. That's what. Wow. Look at us. For Andor. We just won the Kris Cream Award.

It's the second one. We just won the Kris Cream Award for Andor. All we do is glaze Andor. Right. We got a rule. Nerd culture, starting here with the Midnight Boys, we're going to be the change we want to see. No more glazing.

No more glazing. And door. Well, let's see very clear. We love it. It's great. We love it. It's great. We love it.

We can't keep a pairing and everything. Andor, Andor and or, andor, andor, andor, okay? Stop glazing it. We're not going to glaze it no more. I want to get from the two that watched it, SOB stood on business once again and didn't watch the show. I want some midnight meter ratings from you guys.

I think I'll also go 10. Like, I was kind of tempted to try and make a lane for an 11 with the idea of like this is kind of somehow an in-between of, like, I don't know, like snowfall meets, I don't know, like Smallville, something like that where it's like it pushes to me at least like what a superhero show based, you know, a superhero show

can be because it's so heavily sopranosy but I don't think it's worth the argument so I'll stick with the 10. I haven't had a chance to watch the finale yet so. That's grim. You did have the screener.

The watcher did not watch. The watcher did not watch. I'll see what about now. I'll see what I'll see him on now. Arjuna go fire me. You didn't watch the finale. That's cool. But that means we got to go to celebration.

Like, we're going to celebration. Shout out to everybody. Hey, we're going to see the universe. Japan. Konichiwa. Tokyo. Konichua.

It's crazy. I've been, first of all, I'm that crazy. I've been taking Japanese on Duolingo. Oh, my gosh. Nah, it's not the top. I don't like it. That's great.

Thank you for taking the heat off me, Curr. Not the top. Steve, that's not, it's not comparable. I can. That's time, man. All right, well, I edit this, so they might not even hear this shit. They might not even hear this shit. You know what, though?

I just changed. I'm on curbside now. Oh, I said, well, hey. Hey, that's how old. What I was saying? You can't do that. That's okay in Japan. That's cool.

Remember we were in a meeting? So we were in a meeting and we have somebody that we work. work with here and they mentioned that their mom was part Mexican and and Jomi goes, oh, la me, amigo. That's not what, that was you. Don't ever die. They said, they mentioned, that was him. That was him.

And Jomi kind of like sitting under his breath. Jome goes, that's not at all. Don't lie on me. Don't lie on me. People are listening. People believe that. When you say, people believe it, you've, that was you. You've played yourself a lot.

And I looked at you crazy. Yeah. You guys, that is it. It's a wrap on Tuesday. The House of R will be giving you their deep dive into the penguin finale. Oh, we got to guess what Charles would have given it. Yeah, we got a guess.

The strongest six. That's ever been giving it. It's a five. I think he'd go as high as a seven. Genuinely, I think he'd go as high as a seven. No, he wouldn't go to us. No, the seven is a really close. Charles has never flocked with the penguin.

Chuck's going to be back next week, by the way. like Charles is never Charles has never fucked with the penguin He hasn't fucked with the penguin Literally There was nothing that the penguin could have done And now that they killed Vic No it's done

Yeah They killed our black kings How could they I could yeah That would have been 30 minutes Chuck we miss you Yeah man Come back

Hope you having a good vacation My brother That's wrap On Tuesday On Tuesday the House of R We'll be giving you Their Deep dive Into the penguin finale

Don't want to miss that November It's upon us In addition, we'll be covering every, you guys have shows every weekend. Every Saturday. Weekend. It's arcane and then the other show. The legend of...

The legend of... It's a surprise. Oh, it's a surprise. They know what I'm talking about. The legend? They know what I'm talking about. Producers are Steve's architect, Alman, Jonathan, Kennechua, Gnichua Kerma. And Alia...

S-O-B-Zanaris Jomi and Dinner on on socials hashtag Jomi's Amigos An additional production by Arjuna The Non-Wacha Ramukkah

Jomi for the last time in a little while Take us out Oh man Vic is super dead Nice It's really sad to see Disney if you're listening

Please make National Treasure 3. Did you kind of, did you like my diehard pitch? I thought it was great. I just think that it's really crazy how like, how are you too extreme for terrorism? You know what I mean? It's because, no, it's because Hans Gruber wanted the money and they just wanted social change. And he's like, no, I just want money.

Yeah, that's nuts. That's my, have you heard the pitch for my Hans Gruber origin movie? Give it. It's basically him in that German terrorist organization. but he turns it into a money heist as opposed to like a hostage situation for political change. And so like he fucks over

his terrorist buddies and walks away with a bunch of money and starts his own. They were terrorists, but then he became? Yeah, because they kicked him out of the, they kicked him out of that terrorist organization.

They kicked him out. Yeah. It's gone. He's just wanted money. Yeah. And then he goes away and it's Hong, Hans Gruber time. I like that.

I'll go see it. Exactly. got a little brother at the crib and it's like, you can't get with me. I got no mouth. Yeah, yeah. His Jeremy Irons, little brother.

Oh, little brother because he comes back in, two. In three. Die hard with a vengeance. Die hard with the vengeance. Die hard with the vengeance. Die hard.

Die hard two. I don't know if there's a suffix for that one. Then it's die hard with the vengeance. Then it's live free and die hard. Yeah. There's a little fifth one, but who cares. Die Hard.

Two made a Manhattan. I saw, I saw Die Hard. I saw the one die hard with, what's his face? Jai, the young guy. Remember, they had to die hard. Liff for you.

Liff, Lefrey Dardard. Was that the one with the younger guy or was that the one after that? That's five. That's five. Oh, that's one with, um, that's the guy. He plays his son. He played Jai Eugene. Yeah.

Oh shit. Timothy Oliphant was in Liffreurida. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was good. Maggie Hugh was in that one. That's a good one. Justin Long? Wow, I need to rewatch this.

I heard that was okay. Justin Long was his computer hacker friend. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then he, and then Timothy Olafont was the bad guy. It was the bad guy. And they had to jet in the freeway. That was cool. That one was good.

That was good. Oh, yeah, and he drove a cop car into a helicopter. He just ramped it up. That was great. I argued the first man. I remember seeing the first. I saw Die Hard 2 first. Oh, really?

Man, when he lit that plane on fire, bro. Oh, right. That was great. I went crazy. Yippikai. I was like, let's go.