The Ringer-Verse - 'The Rings of Power' Episode 3 Deep Dive | House of R

Episode Date: September 9, 2022

Joanna and Mal return to Middle-earth and talk about the latest episode of 'The Rings of Power.' They take a look at the opening snapshot of the show's critical reception and overall impressions (06:41). Then they go for a Helm's-Deep deep dive into the episode itself, with all the juicy plot details and character moments (16:59). Later, they take a dip in the Forbidden Pool and look ahead to what potential book spoilers might mean for the future of the show (88:41). If you would like to email Mal and Joanna about the show, you can reach them at [e-mail] Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Addition Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfairadio.com This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors. New Whole Foods, Market Peach, Apricot, Rose, Italian soda. Perfect for a picnic or brunch, as is their trending mango yuzoo chantilly cake. But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sale size. store-wide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring.

Save at Whole Foods Market. Be careful, out. The add to this market has utter more than just nobility. I am not the hero you seek. Ours was no chance meeting. Not fate nor destiny. No any of the words men used to speak of the forces they lack the conviction to name.

Ours was the work of something greater. You must see it. All I see is an elf who won't put down her soul. Back into the ringerverse, your nexus, podcast, feed for all things, fandom. And very specifically today, all things rings. I'm Joanna Robinson. Joining me. Now that she has scoured the map of Middle Earth and Beyond to find some corner where people aren't racist towards elves,

it's Mallory Rubin. Hello, Mallory. Joe, great to sail into Numenor with you today. I mean, the salt breeze in your face, giant statues above, beautiful ocean below. What could go wrong? An intriguing tower. A hot man and an excellent wig on your boat. Let's dive into it.

This is your deep dive for Rings of Power, episode three, Adar. written by Jason Cahill, Justin Doble, and directed by Wayne Chey. Yep. Before we get into our discussion of this wonderful episode of television, we want to do, you know, our usual bits of business just in case you decide you want to hear Mallory Rubin and yours truly talk about House of the Dragon and other show that's currently airing. Guess what? You've got a few opportunities. Sunday. Mallory, Joanna, Chris Ryan, Talk the Thrones. Tuesday, Mallory, Joanna, House of Art, Deep dive. Thursday, Joanna, Neil, Dave, you know, trial by content. Completely different show on a completely different feed.

The Midnight Boys have been hitting both rings of power and House of the Dragon on their show. So it's great stuff. We also have Shehold coverage. There's just a lot going on. Of course, you know, we'll be here every week talking about rings of power. Yeah. And our coverage just around the corner. And door coverage coming soon.

Okay, you can keep up with all the shows that we're covering on the Ringer streaming guide, which is sort of a new portal that we put together over the Ringer.com. Mallory is contributing to it. I'm contributing to it. All your favorite people are just out there recommending things for you to watch. There's a fun quiz you can take. So Ringer Streaming Guide, go check it out. Mallory, if someone wants to get in contact with us directly to float a theory or a correction

or send us an inspirational quote, How can they get to us, Mallory Rubin? They can email us, Joe. They can email us as often as their heart's desire at the length of their choosing. They can email us at Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. Once again, that's hobbits and dragons at gmail.com. If you prefer your relationship with your friendly neighborhood podcast, there should be a little less parisocial, though,

You can just follow us on social media. That's just like a slightly less interactive way to do it on Twitter, on Instagram, Ringerverse is everywhere, on Facebook, TikTok. Jomey's just really holding it down on the social front. So you can find us in all those places. Also just subscribe to the Ringiverse feed. What a brilliant idea. Then you won't miss a thing.

Again, in the words of the great Stephen Tyler. I want to miss a thing. All right. In case you're joining us for the first time on Ringervist's thing, on our rings of power coverage. I'm going to break down the spoiler warning is a little complicated for this show. We talked about this at length last week.

I'm going to try to do it a little quicker this week, which is just to say, we want everyone to feel like they can meet this podcast at whatever level they want to meet it at, which means we are doing three rings of spoilers. The first ring, it's the main bulk of the conversation. Mallory and I'm going to be talking about this show, Episode 3, Rings of Power,

with the context of having seen the Peter Jackson films and read the books. We're not going to go into two, like, no major obscure corners of the lore of the books that, you know, go too far in the future or whatever. But we're not going to pretend like we haven't seen this trilogy of films that we rewatch every single year. Yeah. It's not happening. So, A Sealdor, Ellen Deal, guess what?

We know who they are. We're going to talk about it. Okay. Ring two. Speculation ring. This is the ring forge. Forge O'Anna Robinson. We've got some healthy stuff in the speculation ring.

Oh my God. This is guesses we're making that's informed by lore that's sort of a little extra textual outside of the Jackson films. So guesses we're making about mysterious people. That belongs ring two, speculation ring. Ring three. That's just full-blonesies. No production spoilers, but spoilers for everything.

everything that Tolkien has ever written, I suppose, is on the menu. All of that is in the final, is in the final ring. So those are our three rings of power. Did I miss anything, Mel? Are we, are we good to go? You crushed it. Correct. Love that for me. You crushed it like the men of Numeror crushed those ails that Hal Brand handed out to try to woo them. Those ails look really good. And this, like, beautiful ceramic goblets. It was wonderful. Looks crisp and refreshing. They did. A lovely pairing for a warm summer day. We are going to start with as we like to with our opening snapshot, the section we're titled A Long Expected Party. Let's just talk really quickly. Reactions, we recorded last week before

the episodes had premiered. I would say based on my anecdotal experience, looking around, etc. I would say mixed is where we are. Some people are unsure that this is the show for them. some people are super mega hyped and are like, this is the show for me. And I think that's a fine place for this show to be. What do you think, Mal? Yeah. It's been interesting to chat with people about it and hear from people about it and see if the response differs based on how deeply you've engaged with the movies or the story. I think that in the circle of colleagues and pals and family members I've chatted with, most of the people I'm talking to seem to really have enjoyed it.

So that's been exciting and fun. Got some incredibly enthusiastic text messages from my mother who's having a great dime. So that was nice. Surprise of the century is Chris Ryan on the watch with Mal this week. Yeah. Coming out in favor brings a power. He was blown away.

Blown away, as he said. Now let's just strike from the record forever. His comments about the Harfoots and the Hobbits. We need not take those into account. No. We can only recall. I don't even remember. I'm enjoying the show.

I don't even remember. I'm as confused as a man and a meteor. I have no memory of Chris Ryan saying anything like that. We're not going to spend too long on some of the other discourse that's been around the show. But I guess we just wanted to stay for the record. Hopefully it's clear in the way that we talk about things in general. But like all of the non-based on the merit of the story criticism that you're seeing around rings of power, a.k.a. the racist stuff.

We're not about it in the biggest way possible. It is disgusting and repellent. There has been a number of posts from people who are currently associated with rings of power, people who are part of the original cast, Elijah Wood posted a great photo,

Sean Aston posted, you know, like all this sort of stuff. It's just really repulsive and disappointing. And I'm hoping that we can you know, band together with the sort of like hope and love we have for this for this text and and celebrate that together and drown out those really disappointing nonsense garbage that we've seen around the show.

I could not agree more, Joe, the love and hope that we feel and have for the story and also the love and hope that is at the center of the story. And that is always one of the things that is just so repellent and dismaying about this kind of racist, attack, the fellowship at the heart of the story is so contrary to these attacks. And it is just so, so disappointing that so many people can't see that. This is a story about a lot of things. And chief among them is finding your way toward common cause and common purpose. And that is something that we believe in and are really looking forward to sharing and celebrating with all of the listeners out there who are excited to share in that as well. So if you're here with us,

full of hope and love for this beautiful text that we love, I would like to start by talking about the opening credits, which we did not talk about last week. Really cool. I'm not going to try to do too much comparison between House of the Dragon Rings of Power. I think there's been plenty of that. But I will say, like, something that was really cool that Rings of Power did earlier is when they did one of their announcements, they did this sort of really cool practical burning of, of, you know, of wood as part of their announcement. And this is another, like, really cool practical effect where they're, like, using sound resonation to create these various shapes, these iconography of Middle Earth, like the two trees of Valinor. And I saw a really cool

break down about the idea that this opening credits is meant to represent the, please forgive my pronunciation, I believe it's Aynolay, which is the music of the Aynar, basically the divine music that created Middle Earth in the first place. And so we are watching the creation of, and then of course the perversion of as this like dark force comes like asymmetrically moving in through the sands as they form this shape. I really loved it. And one of the analyses that I was reading about this was pointing out that, like, all of the stuff that's there, the creation of the earth, the two trees.

This is all stuff text from the Simmerillion, which is a very, very important book that Amazon does not have the legal rights to. So it's a way to sort of acknowledge the Simerillion without breaking their contract saying they won't cover any of the content of the Simerillion. I love it. It's bold. It's savvy. It's clever. A workaround. I thought the opening credits were great. A real cool mood setter, very visually intriguing, love all of the references that are embedded in the visuals. And in terms of your pronunciation, you need never fear because you can count on the fact that no matter what, yours truly, your beloved, cherished co-host will always outdo you on that front, you know? Just here to. Here to talk about my guy, Otto High Tower, going down to the ocean, on to see the O's game with Otto. Yeah. Gladriol, watch out. All right.

On the note of this sort of Simarillion workaround, like, I just want to, I want to answer a question from, you know, we got so many emails. A lot of the questions you guys had will be able to talk about in context of this week's, but I wanted to just zoom back to last week really quickly and address this question of Valinor, this sort of elf heaven that we see in last week's episode. We got so many questions about the depiction of it in this show versus how we've seen it elsewhere. Matthew was asked, emailed us to ask, is Middle Earth just a continent east of Valanor? Is there some sort of Avalon-esque, meaning the Arthurian legend, Avalon?

Avalon-esque magic going on here. And Laura asked, I'm just confused by the rules of whether or not one can leave Valinor. Some things I've read suggest you can. but then it also changed to different points. There's a flat around theory of Middle Earth. Isn't it on a separate plane of existence? How, why do the elves make that choice? Okay, so flat earth is Kyrie Irving out here tweeting about Lord of the Rings?

What's going on? It's true. Flat earth, middle earth does exist at a certain point in the history. And then the gods basically decide to move Valanor out of the regular plane of existence. and it becomes a place that you can only get through a portal. Essentially, like, taking the bifrost to Asgard. They call that route the straight road or the lost road. It's like, or, you know, Peter Pan's setting for Never, Neverland.

You got to be on the correct bearings or the island on lost, which we're going to talk about later. You got to be on the correct bearings or you're not going to get there. And that wasn't always the case in the history of Middle Earth, that becomes the case. What's true, I can just say this blanket statement. And what's true is that the, first of all, Tolkien was constantly reworking this idea. Love to rework an idea, guys, a real reviser of concepts. But what's also true is this. A gardener, as George would say, you know, always tend in the garden.

I love that. But also, I think what's true, and people can email us if they think I'm wrong about this, but I think a lot of this, again, has to do with the rice and some morelian and what they can and cannot talk about. And so they changed the history a bit about, why the elves left elf paradise in the first place, and they changed the rules about how they can get back. And this comes to our last email about this from Nicole,

who says, did you guys think it's suss that Gilgallad would be able to gift and influence Galadriel of all elves into leaving Middle Earth? So, Mallory, do you have any thoughts or feelings about hiking Gilgallad being the one to rubber stamp someone's entry into elf heaven? I think that this is an iconic email. Did you guys think it's suss? It really, it is. It is suss for our guy Gil to be able to wield that kind of power and make that kind of offering.

And of course, especially the, this is so central to the conversation between Elrond and Galadriel and this idea of him, she, of Gilgalad. She's to ignore her insolence to grant this gift from your king, like the way. that it is wielded not only as this aspirational thing in their culture and among all elves, but as a thing

that he specifically is able to provide and the wrath that you risk incurring if you go against the favor he has granted you is like a fascinating political element inside of that

much more religious and spiritual aspect of the canon, which is a cool thing to track, I think, across the story. No Gilgallad in this episode. Missed him. Yeah. I guess he's, like, polishing his gold clothing. Do you think he has to polish his gold clothing?

Or do you think he's just like... He has a lot of blighted leaves to pick up. A lot of pruning. He's tending his garden. So, yeah, so it works differently in the books. The gods get to decide whether or not you get to go to Eleanor, not the king. But they've changed some things. I will agree.

There's a lot of change. changes that I am totally down with, but I'll agree with Nicole. I think that is a little, uh, suss. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Trimphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required.

Tremfaya is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tremfaya today.

Call 1-800-526-7736. to learn more or visit trimfire radio.com. We are going to go sort of location by location, similar to how we did last week. There's three main storylines that we're going to examine here in our deep dive. There's a trip to Newmanore. There's what's going on with Arondere.

Bad stuff. To recap, bad stuff. And what's going on with Nori and Poppy and the rest of the Harfoots and the strangers? So three storylines take care of. Mallory, do you want to start with who you missed this week? Sure. Yeah.

I really, really missed Elrond, Dira, Disa, Kellebrumbor. I was sort of joking about missing Gilgela. But a little bit. You know, I missed the time in Lyndon and Regian and Kazadoum. I think that it's just inevitable that we're going to weave in it out of plotlines and character sets. We can't visit everyone every time. and that's okay. It was more important ultimately to, and I think this will, this will seem

certainly true when we look back at the end of the season on the structure of the whole thing, to establish fully Numenor in this new character set and to give us real time there, because we need to not only understand what's happening with Galadriel and Halbron in that, in that environment, but we're meeting so many new figures of consequence. So I enjoyed the time we spent in the places we spent it, but I got to the end. And I was like, man, where's my guy to read me my bedtime stories? Need it. Need it.

Want it? Miss it. How about you? Did you miss it? I appreciate them not trying to sort of turn our heads too much by zigzagging between too many plot lines. So I think they're going to be carefully curating how many stories we check in on and whether or not these stories collide, maybe then it'll become easier to, you know, you'll

have fewer stories to check in it. But it's the old Thrones balancing act. Like, are we going to Marine this week or not? Like, what's happening? Speaking of bedtime stories, I actually wanted to start with here with a little quote that is nothing to do with Tolkien, but I came upon it while I was investigating some other Tolkien stuff, and it reminded me so much of you. This is from a writer named Harold Goddard, who wrote this, I think late 19th, early as 20th century. This is just such a Mallory quote. I just wanted to read it to you.

And I wish I could call Robert Arameo so he could read it to you. But anyway. The destiny of the world is determined less by the battles that are lost and won than by the stories it loves and believes in. It's such a malquote to me. So here we go. Incredible. Gorgeous. The stories we love and believe in.

The destiny of the world is determined less by the battles that are lost and won than by the stories it loves and believes in. Oh, Harold Goddard. Yeah. Gorgeous. We got a lot of storytelling in this episode. We're going to get into that. We're going to start here with Numenor, which is our newest location, our newest influx of characters. So we're going to start with some basics.

Like, what is Numeronor? Numeror is a star-shaped island off the, you know, off the west coast of Middle Earth. Great. The land of the star, the western most of all the mortal realms, I think is Galadro calls it. and very, like, crucially, this is a gift from the valor, from the gods, to the humans who picked the right side of the war last time. If you didn't, sucks to be you. You get to hang out in the dirt and the muck of the Southlands. But if you chose correctly, you get the beautiful coastal experience of Numenor.

Numerner was founded by Elron's twin brother, Elros, who chose to live among the mortals. I choose a mortal life. So we talked about that last week, that like a god. Elrond and Elros are half elven twin brothers. Elron chose to live as an elf. This is something you can do. Elross chose a mortal life.

He chose to die. He founded Numeronor. we get this lovely tapestry. Mallory on a scale of one to ten. How did this tapestry compare to the dragon-orgy tapestries of House of the Dragon? You know, when I am scouting tapestries

in a genre tale, I do look to see if any sort of dragon tail or dragon body part at all is penetrating a Targaryen. That's something that is important to me in a tapestry

and also important to Vissaris, the first Targaryum. So we have that in common. This was a little more chaste, but, you know, lovely picture of a family and also a parting of the ways. I thought it was really good. I'm not an expert in tapestry renderings,

but I thought this was a pretty astonishingly accurate tapestry rendering of Elrond. They didn't even say his name and you could, you know, glean who it was. It was sweet too to hear Galadriel talking about how she was always closer to him when she's gazing upon it and just heard her the real excitement of making that Elros and, of course, all around connection in the Hall of Law and how much is stitching together for her there. That was all really fun. But yeah, man, the Numenorians, those longer lives really has made a lot of them insufferable assholes. That's my quick take. Numenor. A lovely plight. Can't wait to visit. Not so interested in hanging out with the people. Numenor really taking seriously that live long enough to see yourself become the villain attitude.

When we sail with Galadriel and Halbride into the harbor of Numeror, how gondory were those vibes for you, the white city of Gondor? I'm just going to pull what you noted in our house. outline because I think it's perfect and exactly what I thought too, which is this mix of a gondor architectural aesthetic and also like a bravos element because of the dotting of the population and these little bursts of the island across the seascape. So it has, when you're zooming in and we're exiting our skiff, it has almost like a Venice Canal quality to it. But that wide shot when we panned out was very, very, very, very strongly evoked Bravos and, you know, sailing through

the, the Titan seeing just the scale of it was kind of amazing. But the specific Gondor touches, the stonework, the carving of the faces, the statues, the, at the, the way that the end of the castle and the court runs out into this like runway carved into the rock, you know,

like waiting to see Dent there run off and fall flaming to his death. So there are a lot of these similar, similar visual touchstones. And of course, we get to see Nimloth, the fair. And think about the connection there to the white tree of Gondor. So that's a very strong visual parallel in connection and is a very one that is very deeply rooted not only in the earth, but in the story looking in all directions past and future. So yeah, you could feel the gondor there. But I could spend a whole season in Numeron. I think when we did our trailer breakdown,

if I recall, I think I said that Numerur was the place I was most excited to see and visit. And some of that was like about glimpsing the culture and the actual place and the magic at the heart of it, these long lives, what that does to these people. And right away, that was like a really cool and fun and rewarding thing, but also so many new mysteries immediately, these very tantalizing questions about not only specific characters and these more interpersonal dynamics and relationships and the cloud of the old king, but the relationships between the Numenorians and the elves. This is a really fascinating thing and that I'm eager to spend more time exploring. So I loved getting to Numenor.

I was so thrilled to meet Elendale and Isselaer. And this episode is so, so, so thrilled. So a reminder for folks who maybe don't rewatch the Peter Jackson films every year, right? A seal door. And we're going to talk about a seal door much more down in sort of our book context section. But like a seal door. A seal door is the one who is supposed to destroy it. Throw the ring into the fiery pits of mortar and then goes, no.

and leaves, like a little sneer on his face. So, Aseldor, Elendil, his father, joins cause with Gilgalad and the last alliance of elves and men against Sauron. This is the opening of the Fellowship of the Ring is this big battle that they participate in. And then a Seelor, when his father dies, is meant to take the ring into the fiery pits of mortar and decides not to. So that is a very, very big, big deal, a big thing that we're aiming towards. And I know this character is a particular fascination to Patrick and J.D., the creators of the show. They talked about how when they decided to time crunch the second age, when they decided to according it on itself, essentially, and go from thousands of years to basically the lifespan of a man, it's so that we could be with someone like Issyldur the whole time

that we meet him in episode three of the first season and we're with him all the way to the end so that when he makes that choice, we have gotten to know him and hopefully like him and so we feel the weight of that choice so much more rather than introduce Issyldor in like the final season and have him yada yada do the thing. What do you think about that adaptive storytelling choice, Mallory?

I love it. And it's part of why I was so excited when the casting was announced, when we glimpsed him in the trailer for the first time. And part of what I enjoyed most about this episode, because from the moment that we see him training for the Seagard and the way that he snaps out of focus for the task at hand in the moment into this dreamlike state and is gazing back at the mountain. And we hear Is you hear her? Like this call. Yeah. And it is literalized in that moment.

But throughout the episode, there's a great dinner, family dinner scene with father, son, and daughter. Yeah, at the old Numinorian food court. Yeah. Looks beautiful.

Hanging out at the buffet and the puppet show as one does. Yeah. Getting a slice of the bar. Yeah. They're talking about Anarian, the Seildor's brother, and this idea of him wanting to defer. Is this really so tragic?

And Anariant told me you deferred twice. And all of these mysteries in their past, we have previously heard elsewhere in the episode about the noble line from which Alendio hails. We hear about the Western Shore and the family's connection to that aspect of Newman-Oryan history. and the conversation about the past and how Alendio says he tells the Seeldoer, there's nothing for us on our western shores. The past is dead. We either move forward or we die with it. And the idea of like the water is this healing thing and a seal door pushing back against

that because he can see the pain that his father still carries with him. It is a rare thing to, in a difficult thing, when we know the end point for a character. This is something that is embedded into not just here at Ring orverse, but more broadly, into the conversation about prequels and how to make them succeed and how challenging what the opportunities are, but also how challenging it is. We know the end point. Well, this is a character where I feel immediately after one episode of Time with Him, not only do I not feel like, boy, that takes something away that I know where it goes. I felt utterly gripped and really sad while watching these moments because you could see the way already that he is called towards something. what will that be in this show? We don't know yet.

But how that has a bearing on the course of his life? What, like, a heavy thing to already be thinking about. I'm really excited to see his journey in full. How about you? This is the conversation Ben Lindberg and I had so many times as we were covering Better Call Saul, which is a tremendous prequel series where we know where the character of Saul is going to land in Breaking Bad.

And that doesn't feel like a spoiler. It feels like an anxiety point. that we're hurtling towards, you know, and it can really, as you say, enrich the show we're watching here. A' A' Aarion, who is Aseldur's sister who's in the Builders Guild, she is a show-invented character, but Anarian, his brother, who gets mentioned in a very, like, don't talk about your brother kind of way. So what's going on there? Anarion and Assyldor will go on to found the city of Gondor. And the reason why this is important to talk about for me is so that I can attempt Vigo-Mortensen's pronunciation here when they are sailing through Middle Earth and they come these two giant statues.

And Aragorn says, the Argonath. Right? So it's Aseldor and his brother Anarian. are these two giant figures on the water in Fellowship of the Ring. So I think it's just, again, really cool, this concept that Tolkien returns to of, like, seeing the past, seeing the history, seeing someone in a monument form.

But two things, like, there's the reverence of Asielder, there's the fear of a Sele Door. Aragorn's fear that he will, as Aseldor's heir, because Aragorn is descended from Alendiel and Aseldor. He is a Dunedine, which is the men who used to be Newmanorians. New Minerians have long lives. Errigorn still has kind of a long life,

not as long as the Newmanorians had, right? Sort of been diluted down through the generations. Just a fresh in his prime 80. Yeah. When we're hanging with them. Right. But the way he says, the same blood flows in my veins,

the same weakness in fellowship when he's talking to Arwen about how he fears that connection to his own line, his own past. Yeah. Yeah. So there were some questions from folks, you know, fans, Tolkien fans who know about the Argonath, about like whether or not Anarian was going to be in the show. And it's very mysterious what they're doing here. I don't know. You don't know. We don't know because it's not clear from the books why Anarion would not be with his family right now. So we don't know. That's something that they're slow rolling for us. But it seems like what we can glean is that he, because. because when Anariang comes up and Alindal asks what he has to do with it, we get that, well, slightly more than nothing, thanks. Incredible brother-sister moment right there.

And Al-Lindial says, oh, good gods, I'll tell you what I told him. There's nothing for us on our western shores. Right. So we can assume that Anarian was called to the western shores and this seat of elvish connection, but what specifically that looks like, yeah, I hope we get to find out. There's this divided culture, as we see on the island. There are the faithful, the elf friends. Yes. And they have a stronghold on the western shore. The western shore is what's closer to Valinor. The eastern shore is what's closer to Middle Earth, right? The elf friends, the faithful,

and then the rest of the populace who seem pretty elf racist, to be honest with you. And so when Nelendial comes out of the shadow speaking elvish to Galadriel. It's a big moment. He is outing himself essentially as an elf friend. Muriel also is like, what does your name mean? Elfriend. Okay. Let's talk about Miriel and Farazan are like the, our queen regent and the chancellor here. They allude to Muriel's father, dare not invite your father's cloud back over our head. We're talking about that a little bit more in the book reader section, but. Tara Palantir is the name of her father, the king, Tara Palantir.

And she's talking to him at the very end of the episode. Yes, it is here. Father, the moment we fear the elf has arrived. Dun, dun,

dun. Because, like, it seems like maybe Muriel's father was more kindly disposed towards the elves based on stuff Farazan says,

and that the popular vote is We don't like elves and we don't want them here. You know what I mean? Right. Right. And we, and Elendiel and Galadryl discussed that a bit and he voices not only that this was an event in a reality and a division in the past, but that this is an ongoing point of tension because he says is, he switches to the press, it switches to the press, it switches to

and emphasizes the present tense is loyal. We force him from the throne. They say he spends his days in the tower now on exile in his own kingdom. I got to say, if you're going to be exiled, worst places to spend your time. Lovely view. A beautiful tower. You can gaze out.

It's like, I mean, I could just imagine Jason Lannister talking about the view from Castorley Rock, talking about the view out west from this tower of a piece. Muriel here gives Ellen Deal a very fancy sword. A beautiful sword. Yeah. My first thought was this has to be Narsal, the famed sword that was broken and reforged that Aragorn uses later. I have been sworn up and down by people associated with the show that this is not Narsal and yet I still don't believe them. So I don't know. Let's just, you know, I don't know.

I mean, there probably, no one's lying to me. I'm just like, why would we, why would we give Ellen Deal a really fancy sword and it's not like the big sword associated with him? What do you, what do you think, Mallory? I thought they went to a great effort to make it visually distinct for sure. Fair enough. But I love a Joanna Robinson Theory Corner. No, I mean, I just, I guess we've got five rough seasons here so he can get Narsal in season three or whatever. Also, that sword feels like a symbol of the like systemic control that we will need our heroes

to reject. And I loved that his daughter, A.R.N., actually called this out. It was like, seems weird that. you violated the norms of the land, you brought an elf to our shores, and then you were promoted. Do you think that's odd? I really like her. She's great. She's great. Can we just for a second talk about when she showed up at the Seagard training and we think that A Seildor is happy to see her and running toward her and he's greeting his horse? I loved it. The number of times I have come into the house and Adam thinks I'm walking with open arms toward him

and I just scoop up Halo. No way that Adam is still fooled by that. We all know who you're here for. He doesn't even get him from the couch anymore. Hi. Yeah. A Sealdor, a very important thing we learn is that he is a animal horse girl of Numerant is Seleador.

Fellow animal lover, as if I needed more reason to invest. Let's talk about someone else we learn a lot about in this episode. one Mr. Halbrand, okay? Oh my God. Joe. It's a lot going on here. Wow. Yeah.

Diplomatic, smooth talker, right? He steps in when Galadro's making a real mess of it in the throne. He steps in. He honey talks them through this. He also fucked up, though, with the bow. Didn't need to bow. That was a good comedy moment when he's like, sorry. That was very funny.

Very funny. In the words of our Lord and Savior, rockapella, aka the Carmen San Diego theme, he's a sticky fingered filter. He steals left and right, steals the dagger off Allendial's hip, puts it where? I didn't see it. I don't know where he put it.

I was looking on a rewatch to see, and he was holding his left hand in such a way that it did seem like he was gripping the hill to the dagger and keeping it flush against his forearm to avoid detection. Yeah. And then lifts the guild's, the guild badge. Less effectively in that case, though. It's immediately caught away.

He's interested in smithing. He was interested in he's a smith. Yep. That was fun. We're going to talk about that in a second a little bit more, but pretty violent. He like didn't want to get into the fight. But once he did, you know, he kind of gave a Captain America like before. the start didn't even want to get off.

And then they don't. And then he viciously breaks someone's arm against a stone wall. Like, that was wild. Well, you know, if you're aligning with Hydra, you get what you deserve, broken forearm or not. So I love that Captain America Elevator Com. That's perfect. Can I tell you who he reminded me of in this episode?

Oh, please. I got a powerful, powerful, powerful brawn vibe from him. The way he was speaking. Now, of course, given everything that we learn about his kingly roots and lineage, this is not actually the case at all. But when he said, Halbrand of the Southlands, I was waiting for him to say, like, you wouldn't know him. He just had that kind of smooth-talking energy and vibe of brawn. And it was very funny. I enjoyed it.

Let's talk about this king thing. This, okay? So, like, here's me pouring over the sigil and, like, Galadryl just tweeted it out. She just found it in the hall of laws. Okay, but, you know, she's like, you're the king, you know. Galadro was listening to the second ring, the theory corner ring, and she's like, yep, that's it. You're the king in the Southlands. You're the king they were talking about.

And he seems really uncomfortable with this revelation. What did you make of this? First of all, I need to know how they are cataloging. in the Hall of Law. Because both of the... It looks like Olavander's wand shop, essentially. Exactly. We need to understand what this, we think,

SIGEL, we learn exactly what it is. Here, I have discovered exactly what you are looking for immediately. And oh, by the way, I also found the sign on the pouch around my raft mate's neck. Excellent work in the Hall of Law. The reveal of this kingly lineage. Yeah. Not shocking.

We talked last week about this palpable, arigorn-esque, a king who has taken the strider-type path, energy and aura around him. The Southland comments about his, where he hailed from, coupled with what we heard in the Southlands, about the search for a king. All of that tracks. I, in a way, like, I think it's good to just put that out there early because now it becomes more about the mystery of what he will do and what decisions they will make as opposed to the mystery of who he is, though there are still some aspects of mystery there, certainly. But I loved the way that he talked about this,

because we had, like, a pretty moving and, like, haunting quote from him, earlier in the episode when they arrived, and he really was making his case, like, imploring Galadriel to not fuck it up so that they could stay. And he said, I have been searching for my peace for longer than you know. And that was a really, like, sad thing. Well, what would have caused that? And what does peace look like for him? Is peace rebelling against that mantle that he's meant to inherit? Is peace finding a way to restore his family's good name? We have a lot more to learn about how he relates to all of that. But one thing we learned definitively

in this episode is that he carries a great deal of shame. And much like Aragor, in that line we already mentioned about the way he talks about that weakness and the Sildur's veins also running in his own, fear, fear that he will make the same mistakes, that he will be beholden to

and warped by the same evil that his ancestors were. He says the heir to this mark is heir to more than just nobility for it was his ancestor who swore a blood oath. to morgoth. I am not the hero you seek for it was my family

that lost the war. What I found so interesting about that was not only the Aragorncom, but the way that we talked last week about like the tragedy of the watchwarden telling Arandeer that these men in the Southlands they didn't need to be watched,

they didn't need to be mistrusted simply because what their ancestors did but because of who they still are. And there is such a deep and abiding sadness in the fact that they feel that way too, that the people they are talking about, Hal Brand is one of them, carries that same seed of doubt inside of him.

What I do know for certain, because I have some questions about this kingship thing, but what I do know for certain is that he is hardcore vise with Galadryl. Yeah. When he, like, grabbed her to give the dagger back, yeah. Buddy.

Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. I loved when she showed up at the prison cell, and he was like, yeah, it was an argument about a, About a woman. That was great. And I just love these moments when he, like, looks like he's going to pop off.

And then he makes a decision. He's like, drinks for everyone. Here we go. Let's do this. Okay, we're going to talk about that more in a different ring. All right. So I do want to go back to this idea of him wanting to be a Smith. And just pause really quickly.

Much as we did last week talking about sort of environmentalism with Tolkien, I want to occasionally talk about some of these bigger themes that Tolkien was in. invested in. And we got a lot of emails about this, this concept of sub-creation. This is a really interesting concept. We talked last week about how Tolkien was a devout Catholic, and that is something that was interesting to him and his work. And so this idea that sub-creation is used by Tolkien to refer to the process of world-building and creating myths. In this context, a human author is a, quote-unquote, little maker, creating his own world as a subset within God's primary creation. Like the beings of Middle Earth, Tolkien saw his works as mere emulations of the true creation

performed by God. He said, this is a Tolkien, quote, We have come from God and inevitably the myths woven by us, though they contain error, will also reflect a splintered fragment of the true light. The eternal truth that is with God. Indeed, only by myth-making, only by becoming sub-creator and inventing stories, can man aspire to the state of perfect. perfection than he knew before the fall. And I find this really interesting, not just from like a

storytelling point of view, because that's his craft, but it reminds me with this conversation we talked about last week when Elrond is talking to Kelle Brimbor and he's like, making beautiful things, that's your craft. Diplomacy, that's my craft. And so I think what we should always be on the lookout for in Tolkien and in Middle Earth is this idea of creation, who's creating what, like, and Tolkien, as he describes this world, does such a detail to and reverence to the craftsmanship of the dwarves, of the elves, what are they building, what are they creating, what are they making in? And how in that creation are they touching this divine spark, this eternal flame?

What do you think about that, Mallerman? I think that's beautiful and opens up a really fascinating way to assess. the characters and choices inside of the text and the meta-textual elements as well and this deeply religious and spiritual aspect at the heart of the story. I think that like, listening to you say all of that, one of the things that stands out to me

is there is the, like, a beautiful, aspirational and inspiring aspect of that when you seek to create and you seek to build something in the image of create, can you, as Alron said to Caliborne, move the heart of someone. That's lovely. Some of the characters in this story

who try to create things are seeking not to move but to move for their own end. Seeking not to move to inspire, but to move to control. And where is that line? And the idea then of intention, and I know that will connect to something else

that you wanted to talk about today about destiny and free will, which is also an ever-present through line and theme in the story. I think these are really interestingly entwined because the ability to choose to make something, to choose to try to make the world a better place, shape the world, put your hands in that good tilled earth that we always talk about when we're thinking back on a Bilbo in the Shire and grow something. You spoke beautifully last week about the seeds and what they represent,

the ability to find in your heart and find in a bond you build with somebody else, the desire to make a better world. Well, what if the desire to make a better world is something that is only better for you, then you're led astray quite quickly. So there's a tension point there. Yeah. And the way that I see it, I'm trying to understand it because I'm not fully versed in this concept, but I'm trying to understand it and understand where the line goes from like inventive creator to you've dug too greedily and too deep. And I think it has to do with that idea of power and control. Once you are playing God yourself,

that is where you have misstepped in Tolkien's eyes. If you are trying to sort of reflect back, you know, Finrod and Galadro will talk about that reflection of light and how it can be a false, a trick, right? But there is beauty in trying to touch the spark of creation of the eternal of the sacred flame that Gandalf talks about when he squares off against the Belarag.

And then if you are Saramon and you're destroying the land in order to, you know, build up whatever, if you're a phanorn, you create these beautiful simirels, but then you're going to kill anyone who's tries to take them from you, you know, like then you have overstepped your bounds in the order of the universe. I think that's exactly right. And, you know, it makes me think of that line we discussed at length last week that until we have touched the darkness, you know, sometimes we cannot know until we have touched the darkness. And you touch the darkness not to then be pulled fully into it and to live.

your life in its shadow and to spread that shadow across the land, you touch it so that you can actually tell which way it's up. Right. Speaking of Galadriel, in the very confusingly arranged Hall of Laws, the I, Elros, I have notes about your Dewey Decimal System, buddy. We find out that this sigil that we've seen all over the shop is a map of Mordor, which we talked about in one of our deeper rings last week. I'm still thinking about the before-door name that you shared. It's just iconic. It's so funny.

So this idea, there's a guess, some sort of plan for followers of Morgoth. If Morgoth fails, meet me. It's like, meet me in Montauk from Eternal Sunshine and Follows Life. Meet me in Mordor. Meet me in Before-door, and we're going to do something there. We're going to do something big. To build a land of their own, Galadriel says, where evil will not only live, but it will thrive.

So this idea that perhaps we're headed towards the creation of Mordor, maybe sometime this season seems increasingly the case. Anything else you want to say about Numenor, Alendil, Seildur? I was very impressed by Galadriel's drawing skills. She recreated the sigil that turned out to be a map perfectly. I thought that was really something. and I also, I have some notes, as I often do for villains for Morgoth now. You know, that whole idea that you just mentioned, it speaks not only of a place but a plan,

a plan by which to create a realm with our own where evil would not only endure but thrive. A plan to be enacted in the event of Morgoth's defeat by a successor. I don't know. I felt like that should have been his plan in the first place if he didn't want to be defeated. And to be clear, they are playing a little fast and loose with the timeline of Mordor and stuff like that in this show.

But listen, it's an origin story and even Mordor deserves an origin story, I suppose. All right. Last thing I wanted to say is just, you already mentioned the wigs, but they know how to nail the shoulder-length, dark curly hair look in this show and in these movies.

It's nothing ever in the history of film or television will beat Aragorn's aesthetic ever dripping sweat as he slow-mo opens some doors perhaps I can't believe

you said that because that is literally I would point to that moment and Harrison Ford looking over the top of the car and witness as the two moments

of like that's the best anyone has ever looked perfect callout so Alendale he's really he's got the He's got the locks. I'm taking it.

Yeah, Allendial's wig is extremely good. Miriel's wig's, I have some notes. I would like to see more looks from her. Yeah. We got a whole braided crown situation. I have some questions about. All right. Speaking of Before Door, a.k.

The Southlands. This is where we find our guy Arundare. Bronwyn and Theo and their weird sword took the week off. So it's just a Rondier in the work camp here. But we get to see many, many more. orcs, we find out, this is cannot clearly true that they cannot tolerate the sun. It seems like, why have they not invented those, like,

umbrella hats that they can just, like, walk around with, you know, perma shade? I mean, they're all wearing skulls, like bones and beaks instead of sun vizers. Exactly. They're making do, I guess. They're searching for something. Something. They're scouring in the countryside for something.

I've never really related to the orcs before, but when around here did that awesome axe jump and slice through the wood beam to split the canopy and bathe them in sunlight and they all recoiled in pain, I was like, yeah, that's me, the palest person in the world stepping outside into the 107 degree Southern California sun. That's what I feel like. Mallory, his is the orcs need that SPF 100, just like I do. I really love, we talked a lot, I guess, about the environmentalism, the trees last week. I love that this little small elf rebellion here centers on not being willing to cut down a tree. The watchwarden says it has earned its place in these lands. And I just want, let's just pause and talk about trees for a second in Tolkien. So there's this passage from Tolkien's biography of 1977 biography of Tolkien about how much he loved trees. This is a thing that I read somewhere that like above all things,

Tolkien loved trees. And if you spent time with the ants, I guess you may have already figured that out. But here's a passage. He liked most of all to be with trees. He would climb them, lean against them, or even talk to them. It saddened him to discover that not everyone shared his feelings towards them. One incident in particular remained in his memory. There was a willow hanging over the mill pool and I learned to climb it. One day they cut it down, and they didn't do anything with it, the log just lay there. I never forgot that. Oh, my God, my heart.

It's very malloruban energy from Tolkien. I love this. I also love trees. We got this great email from Andrew, who, when we talked about the gifts of trees last week, that El-Ron gives Doran trees, that Brahmin gives orangneur, these seeds. Andrew pointed out a couple other major tree gifts in the text, like Galadriel giving the Malorn. nut to Sam, which blossoms beautifully in the shire to replace the party tree, or more obscurely,

the Eldar giving a seedling of Kelleborn to the Numenorians, the seedling grows into Nimloth, the white tree, which eventually becomes the white tree of Gondor. So, you know, give your favorite person a tree this year. Let's do it. If you can, if you're into signs and portents, Joe, portents and signs, give them a tree, like the white tree that is deeply prophetic and connected to the stability of the line of kings. Yeah, no pressure to your friend there. Tendis, really puts in a single pedal fall.

Yeah, puts a lot on the gardeners. A lot of pressure. All right. Quick note about violence on this show. Okay, so Arundier's friend. Yeah, his partner there making the rounds in the premiere. His friend who smells of raw leaves. Tough rings of power experience for this guy.

As far as I can recall, his partner and friend tells him and us that he smells like shit. Yeah. He is taken prisoner. We know not how. Yeah. And then he is murdered. Yep. By an or.

He did take a quick pause to like shit all over Arundere's relationship on his way to death. That's true. He shared his thoughts on love. Yeah. So, recipe's that guy. And then the watchwarden also in the course of this escape dies. And we mentioned before the street brawl with Halbrand. So my question is like, I was, I've been watching this, you know, and we see this warg creature that attacks them. Just like savages a couple other like nameless elves. So, you know, I've been thinking about rings of power as like an alternative to thrones for like anyone who wants something that's like a kindler, kind or gentler show. And like, without a doubt this is a kinder gentler show. But there was this fear from Tolkien fans

that like Amazon in wanting to have its own Game of Thrones which is something like Jeff Bezos is a very open about I want my own Game of Thrones I'm going to do rings of power. They're like, okay, but don't Thronesify

Tolkien please. How do you feel I mean, I'm not usually a pearl clutcher when it comes to violence, but how are you feeling about the level of violence in this episode? Interesting. I actually thought, and it's definitely possible that I just,

I do watch a lot of Game of Thrones, right? And so I've maybe become desensitized to some of that. I'm used to spending my time watching dragons incinerate legions in the snap of a second. I actually thought this was maybe with the exception of the warg gnawing on the guts of the prisoners. But even that, I was like, in Thrones, you would see strewn intestines everywhere. Here you have like a pool of blood on a shirt. If an axe goes to somebody's neck. Now, on the one hand, we get like the close-up slow-mo shot of the wound beginning to gape.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But there was, and again, I don't mean to sound like a sociopathier. Pretty like comparatively little blood, like less than I was expecting. So I actually think that they're keeping it in check. the bone breaking was probably the gnarliest. It's pretty tough. What do you think? Is it more violent than you were anticipating,

bloodier than you were anticipating? I'm just imagining, and again, I don't mean to sound like a violence prude because I don't care for myself, but I'm just like imagining, I'm like, because sometimes parents ask me, can I watch this with my kid? And I'm like, I don't know what to say about this episode.

It feels a little tough, depending on the age of the kid. But maybe I'm just being a wimp. I know like three-year-olds who have seen Jurassic Park and I just can't imagine. Okay. But we got this really interesting email from Brian. Again, I'm not trying to compare House of the Dragon and Rings of Power. What I really love is that they both exist and that there are these like two different

flavors of shows. Having a blast. But I really liked this idea from Brian because both Rings of Power and House of the Dragon are prequels. As we mentioned before, we know where both of these stories are going theoretically. So Brian wrote, when comparing contrasting the two series, Rings of Power and House of the Dragon, I find myself really latching onto the former and not the latter. I've deduced that this is because of the lack of hope and inevitable downfall that lies in wait for all of us at the end of House of the Dragon.

However we get there, we know it ain't going to result in a dragon boom and goodness for the seven kingdoms. While rings of power, we know there is a war that is ultimately won by the protagonists of Middle Earth. With both of these huge tales already having precluded ends, do you find yourself wishing, wanting, or being drawn towards a hopeful ending? What do you think, Mal? I don't personally agree, but that's okay. That's okay.

I guess, though, that's in part because of, I don't expect House of the Dragon to be a show designed to fuel my hope. It's that moral gray and ambiguity, even just with the character sets, like, I'm not necessarily interested in House Targaryen on the hero. hero's journey or heroly arc. I'm interested more in actually seeing how that downfall comes to be and watching the real tragedy of it over the course of not just this show, but potential future installments in a more sprawling anthology there. I think that there are in both stories very somber endpoints for certain figures and a lot of hardship along the way.

And I think that there are also moments of great triumph and achievement. So it's a little bit about, like, I guess, what you bring to it. And I think that probably a lot of people would have different answers to Brian's question. And I think it's an interesting one. But I don't necessarily, I think obviously Danny's arc is very tragic. But I don't know that I'm, despite the opening card and the 172 years before DeNaris, I'm not really watching the show strictly through a Danny endgame lens. Maybe that'll change over time.

I do think though, you know, and again, I don't know, even as I'm doing it, I'm not sure how fruitful it is to compare these two shows, but I do think that like the moral gray of Thrones produces its own delights. And then if you're interested in a more elemental battle of dark and light with light triumphing in the end. Like, that's what we're going to get. Yeah, I mean, I can, I can just see how we got another email from someone who is like, I like watching Rings of Power and not worrying that as soon as the elves decamp from

before it or Bronwyn is going to be, like, assaulted. You know what I mean? And if, like, if that's, if you're just sort of like, there are certain things I don't want to worry about when I watch TV, like, I think Rings of Power is like a different. I don't agree with that. That's, and I guess, like, because I think the thing that Brian is describing as, that victory is pretty far in the future. And there has to be this great fall and corruption

of so many swaths of people between now and then. Like so many people have to make terrible decisions and mistakes to get to the point where there is a victory to win over this terrible sprawling evil. So I think there's going to be a lot of pain and dissent ahead. I don't think you and I are disagreeing. I just think that George Martin is not all that interested in hope necessarily.

But we can talk about that more. Arondere fights this work. I thought this fight was fine. I like the chain stuff. Like the kicking of the chains, that action was really cool. And the Wharg itself was fine. But like, so are the wargs in the Jackson movies.

So like, okay. Inventive use of twigs and branches, you know, really. No functional fixedness for Arrondir makes do with what's around them. And then we get this figure. Adar. Yeah. means father and elvish, shows up right at the end, does not come into clear focus. But what did you text to me right away, Mallory when you're watching this episode?

Benjian! Questionerick, exclamation point, exclamation point, question work, exclamation point. All right. So the actor Joseph Mal who played Benjin, aka Cold Hands on Game of Thrones, is listed in the closing credits as Adar. So like, even if you could not, Mallory, I guess, because she refuses to go to the optometrist, is quite used to looking at people in soft focus. so she could figure out that that was... I'm like, that's just how I see people all the time. Like, I'm looking through a tub of jello.

Yeah, Benjin. Yeah, he's got this, like, terrifying, very Sauron-y hand. Yeah, those like metal clawed gloves. Yeah, ominous, some ominous stuff. Anything else you want to say about Adar here? I'm thrilled to see Benjian in Rings of Power. This was exciting. There's this worship.

I mean, we hear the watchwarden before his untimed. family demise, talk about this worship and this reverence and this revelation. Obviously, like, you know, Galadriel was right to say, no one's going to listen to me. Nobody believes that this is real because we see the realization dawning in real time. It seems Wargoth has a successor. The way that the orcs part like the sea and bow and chant his name, this was also intriguing. I have two, I have a note and a question. The note. So, Adar.

Arda in the canon is the name for the realm, for Earth, for the world. Why did these things have to be anagrams of each other so that I constantly mistake them on podcasts and say the wrong one? Why? That's the note. Moving on, now that I got that out of my system. One of the things that the watchwordn says is Saran was said to have many names in days of old. Perhaps this is one of them.

There's more at work here than we can yet see. So right away, this very intriguing question of is Adar Saran in this form? Or is he a lieutenant of Saran? Is he a member of the Saran forces and he is leading this Ork mission to tunnel

under these villages, take the townspeople captive, pull the roots up of these trees, and forge the path to crafting Mordor. Exciting to talk about. I know you have a theory because you're Joanna Robinson. That's for Ring 2.

Speculation Ring. Come join us. It's a really fun ring. You do not want to jump off before. Speculation Ring. All right. Before we get there, we got to hit Norie and Poppy and the stranger on the road. We got so many emails very mad at me because I am a very staunch practitioner of accent watch. And I failed to comment on what was spelled out in many an email to me,

Irish, O-I-R-I-S-H, accents of the Harfoots. I, Irish, and we got a lot of emails from Irish people who were like, this is offensive to my eardrums. Okay, I'm not Irish, so it did not ping that for me, and I apologize to all of our Irish listeners. I have heard this accent described to me before by someone else, and it was in reference to what Joe Gilgan was doing on the TV show Preacher, and they called that accent, Dilley-Ey-E-Patatos. Just like, or like, please see, like, Matthew Good in the film Leapier. Like, there is a very, like, smeared-on thick, or Chris for walking in that weird B movie.

There's a, like a thick, thick, Darby O'Kill in the little people, Irish accent that, like, a lot of Irish people are like, that is not at all. We are not leprechauns, what's wrong with you. So I'm sorry to the Irish people to report to you that this is not bothering me as much as it's bothering you, but I am sorry that that is true for you.

I like this cut. We get from Galadriel ominous, the Southlands of. but the beginning and then smash cut to the picture of innocence, which is the Harfoot Festival dancing. But there's this weird ominous because when you first see them, you're like, are these orcs what's happening? And then you're like, oh, no, it's the Harfoot's having their lovely migration festival.

How did this hit you, Mallory? Yeah, I was like, is this like midsummer? Midsummer. Yeah, it's like the vibe it gave me, you know? Oh my God. Florence Pew season two of Rings and Power when? Let's dance around, but also something absolutely like horrifying is about to unfold in the woods. To be clear, I haven't seen that movie because I don't watch horror movies, but I am on Twitter, so I have some sense of what happens there. The, yeah, the mask, like brief disorientation of are we seeing this orc-like cover?

Very weird and creepy and ominous, but in a cool way, right? because it's this like seeping sense of doom in this really pure aspect of the story. And on the eve of the migration, knowing that they are leaving this safe bed. And also like we saw with the travelers in the premiere and then when this our guy the stranger, like a fucking bowling ball through their pyramid, taking down their tent and lighting on fire, which. tough look for our guy the stranger.

It was very sweet to hear him say Nory and friend in this episode and I wept. It was very... It's very... So fun! From the labyrinth moment.

Oh, my God. I have just so many questions for the stranger. Chief among them are like... What was happening with that fire moment? Like, I have a lot of... I think he was trying to read

by the light, and then just lit it on fire and then couldn't blow it out. I guess. I don't know. I mean, I'm not confused. I was just sort of like, that is deeply inept, even for like an adult child. It was tough.

It was tough. It's, I guess, jarring when something you're holding in your hand catches on fire. However, he did crash down to Middle Earth from a meteor and napped in a literal ring of fire for quite a long time. So I don't think he should have been quite so thrown by the fire, frankly. Though his fire was cold. Maybe he's just still processing those snail shells. They're still working their way through his digestive system.

And he's just like a little addled by it. We get this. We get a couple, like, we don't have Game of Thrones House Awards in this show, but we get a couple like mandras and sayings of various locations. So the sea is always right is something we hear from Newmanore and the Sea Guard, right? Real what is dead may never die vibes too with repeating it? Yeah. And then nobody goes off trail.

and nobody walks alone is this Harfoot saying, nobody goes off trail and nobody walks alone. And we got Norie's dad, and his injury does not look better. Was it just me? Did the purple, disgusting, swollen, bruised veins of his ankle look to you like the blight of the leaf in Linden, like this dark corruption that's creeping in all over the shop.

You know what I mean? Wow. I love it. Okay. That's great. Yeah. I think that's that's that's spot on much like it's a large spot on his ankle and he's in a lot of pain. Though they're still asking him to carry that cart. Very tough. Saddick we love and we'll chat in a second here about the ceremony itself, which was 95% like heart wrenching and gorgeous and 5% like you really shouldn't make fun of somebody who got killed by bees. That's fucked up and weird. That's what happens to McCauley Coulin and my girl and I'm still not.

about that. Big time for B-deaths, you know. We have like, shout out Bridgeton, season two. Spoiler. Anaphylaxis is no joke, okay. But Saddick doesn't banish. Doesn't decart. Doesn't decaravan, doesn't banish, Norrie.

You're like, our gal. Melva once. Okay, I love Melva. Oh, she's my favorite. Literally my favorite. 100% my favorite. Love Melba. Cold-hearted.

Every line read makes me laugh. I just want to, I made sure to look up her name because it's, and it's an amazing name. Thustitha Jaisundera is the name of the actress. Melva. She is giving a fantastic performance. Queen. Queen of her thoughts. Love her.

But Saddick does tell them they have to be at the back. And we know that that is akin to a death sentence. To a death sentence. Yeah. Grim. I will say, though, I was so moved by the ceremony. Like, I thought that this was, this, first of all, the way that they, we run through this list of names and this idea, we wait for you. Beautiful. The way that they, they say that in concert. And, like, I think there's such an interesting element of this where you mentioned already, like, their version of the house words, this idea of staying on the path. This is at the, the heart of the tension between Goldie and. Nori, because Nori wants to be an adventurer, wants to be an explorer, wants to heed the call, and Nori wants to stay the path and be safe.

This idea of the people who are left behind, who fell behind as they phrase it, there's a part of me, like the overly rational, literal part of me, that is watching this, like, you guys can just stop. You could just stop and wait. You could go get them and help. And, like, Poppy actually does make that choice. She decides to stop to wait because Norie is her found family. And we learn, and it is devastating, that every member of Poppy's family was claimed by a landslide one rainy winter day.

How absolutely heart-wrenching was that. A beautiful performance from Megan Richards as Poppy. She's so good. And just, like, a really, just a beautiful, like, silent way. And then, like, Sadek himself also mentions a woman who's maybe his wife, like, that, like, his partner. Yeah, and the way it just says wolves. The pursuit of the commune and the common good above all. And then it feels like there's this dissidence at play.

Well, if that's the goal, then wouldn't you do anything you could to protect people? But also, it is true that in order to protect the most people, you have to sometimes make the choice to let somebody else go. And it's just the number of times that it feels like inevitable that that will come up for our characters. What a rich text already for our hard. foots. Also, love the names. Miles Bright Apple. He was the one that we lost in the snows of the

mountain pass. I mean, Bright Apple. That's just great. It is beautiful. To me, it feels like they're on a, like, it reminds me of Station 11 and this idea of the wheel. Like, there's this, this, this route that they walk and they know they're stopping places for the various seasons. And that's how they stay safe. And to slow down for someone, to wait for someone means they won't make, you know, their next landing spot. And so, yeah, as you say, for the common good, for the greater good. And it's like a contract that they've all agreed to, right? That you

won't compromise their safety just as they won't compromise yours. And even to see, like, when the stranger does roll in, the way they all go right away into their disguises, into the environment around them, like we saw when we were first introduced to them with the travelers, it's instantaneous.

It is reflexive. It's a defense mechanism and a survival mechanism. And so, So Norie really is. She's the character that we were drawn to, Poppy 2, obviously, and we want to spend time with and we want to support her impulse to go out into the world and to help and heed that call. But it is so contrary, so, so, so contrary to their way of life.

So I'm really eager to watch that play out. I mean, that is the Frodo and Bilbo, like, call to adventure, very contrary to the culture of the Shire, right? Absolutely. We're going to talk about, taking a bit to talk about destiny. and free will. All right. Steve,

will you play us this clip of Norrie here? There's a reason he came to us. Honestly, Norrie. Do you see a destiny

in this? Do you think the stars reached down and touched you? Is that it? Do you think you're special? You're just a child.

I know. I'm not special. I know I'm just one little hardfoot in a grand, wide world. He is special.

I love that. I love when J.D. Patrick and the various writers sort of cherry pick lines from the text and reconfigure them because this idea of being one little hardfoot in a grand wide world recalls Gandalf's line. You were a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I'm very fond of you, but you were only quite a little fellow in a wide world after all. We get two mentions of destiny and fate in this episode. We already heard the Galadryl quote that opened this episode.

You mentioned it again. We were talking about her. Galadriel says, like, fate and destiny are not the words here. Chance meeting is not the word here, but I want to talk about this idea, destiny, fate, and especially this idea of chance meetings, which is so fascinating to me in Tolkien. Chance meetings is this idea that he put forward. He hyphenates these two words. And shout out to Professor Corey Olson, the Tolkien Professor podcast that I've been

listening to for the last couple years, who has given me major Tolkien education. He's the one who highlighted this for me. So chance-hyphen meetings, and it comes up a lot in the text. It's not just an adjective. Faramir says, wise man trusts not to chance meeting on the road, right? Chance-hyphen meeting. In the book, Strider, Erragon says, well, Master Underhill, if I were you, I should stop your young friends from talking too much.

Drink, fire, and chance meeting are pleasant enough. But, well, this isn't the shire. They're queer folk about. And Gandalf says sort of about the calamity that could have been fallen if they hadn't done what they did in The Hobbit, he says, but that has been averted because I met Thor and Oaken Shield one evening on the edge of a spring in Brie, a chance meeting, as we say in Middle Earth. And then talking about how the ring comes to Bilbo right when, you know, Sauron is on the move and the rise again. Gandalf, the very famous quote is Gannoff says, A Strange Chance, if Chance it was. So I want to talk about this idea of fate, destiny, chance, free will, and how it relates to, again, to Tolkien's faith. Because this is a constant question for people of faith.

How much of this is God's plan and how much free will does a human have? And something they think is really interesting in Tolkien is this idea that despite his apparent faith, he did not like preaching. He was not a proselytizer. He did not preach his faith as all. In fact, he hated when people would preach their faith. And it's one of the ideas you'll hear a lot from people talk about how Tolkien didn't like allegory. The reason why is that he felt like allegory was a form of preaching. If I tell you that this is an allegory for World War II, I'm telling you how you're supposed to feel about World War II.

I'm not going to tell you that. I'm just going to tell you this is a horrible thing. And this is how it feels like when a horrible thing happens. And you can decide for yourself whether or not that applies to X, Y, or the other. I'm not here to guide you. It's like we were talking about also the way that he writes, he does not detail physically describe things. He talks about what it feels like to see the thing.

The idea of Sauron is not a figure in the Lord of the Rings, let's say, in the trilogy. Sauron is like a presence, a ghostly figure off in Mordor, but he's not out here mixing it up with people. It's sort of like, what does it mean for that presence to be out there? How does that feel? And so free will, destiny, fate, which is, as we discover, as, you know, you are such a great scholar, fantasy, Mallory, like, when you think about, like, prophecies and dreams and all this sort of stuff, when you think about your favorite stories, like, how do you reconcile this question of free will and destiny and fate for our heroes?

I think about this all the time. Yes. All the time. Seriously, I think if you said to me, what is the one thing that you are most interested in talking about or drawn to most inside of these stories? Or if you could only talk about one thing forever, the rest of your life, what would be it would be this? Because it's like the core tension at the heart of existence. Now, I am not personally, and you've shared your relationship to faith as well. I am not a religious person.

I often find myself really envious of people who are guided by their faith and have that belief in some sort of not only like afterlife or existence beyond what we're doing every day right now, but like a guiding hand in a larger plan and shape. I also feel strongly personally, and I won't preach because it's not what Tolkien would want, and because I have sincerely like no interest in pushing my views on other people, and I love, some of my closest friends in the world are extremely religious. And I'm always so interested to hear about their faith and their relationship to their faith, and I like to learn about how other people think about, think about their lives and their futures and their choices. But just for me personally, I have to feel like the choices that I make matter, or I like, can't go about my day. I can't wake up in the morning. I can't work hard to try to achieve something

if it feels like the outcome is already determined for me. But I love that there are different interpretations and different ways to relate to that idea. And I think that for somebody who is setting out on a grand quest or challenging some sort of great evil or attempting to make any sort of mark on the world, however great or small, thinking about whether there is some version or aspect of luck or fate or fortune or destiny that is pulling you or calling you towards some end if you were chosen in some way. And hey, I love a chosen one in stories. What I really love most is the character who decides to try to do something, who decides to try to make a difference. And I think that there are ways that these ideas can coexist. And I think they often do in some of the best and more deftly

told stories because there's this aspect of this greater connection. And we hear with Gladriel saying it to Halberantiers, you already. reference, like not fate nor destiny nor any of the words men used to speak of the forces. They lack the conviction to name. Ours was the work of something greater. You must see it. You can see it, but you can't vocalize it because it is something totally definitionally amorphous. Like, this is why philosophy exists, right?

But also philosophy exists because what is the point of going about your day if every outcome is set already? What is the point of trying to be a better person or trying to be ambitious or trying to do anything at all? So, like, we always love to talk about the great, the great, we play the clip in our, in our top moments pod because we love to hear Gandalf say to Frodo. It was pity that's David Bow's hand. We talk about that line a lot, that scene a lot. And there is a real larger, there are other forces that work in this world, Frodo, destiny aspect present there. But also, this very active, you have to decide how you're going to live your life.

the decision Bilbo made will rule the fate of men. Choices have consequences. And I thought it was worth just noting that it is written differently in the book in a way that I think highlights this because one of the later lines in that passage in the book is Frodo says to Gandalf, why didn't you make me throw it away or destroy it? And Gandalf says, let you, make you, haven't you been listening to all that I have said? I love, love, love that you hit me with that section, because I'm here to hit you with another one of our favorite sections, which I completely agree with you. Tolkien masterfully threads the needle between free will and destiny.

And it's Samwise Gamji, who says, I used to think that there were things, the wonderful folk of the stories went out and looked for because they wanted them because they were exciting and life was a bit dull, kind of a sport, as you might say. But that's not the way of it with the tales that really mattered or the ones that stay in the mind. Folks seem to have just landed in them.

Usually their paths were laid that way, as you put it. But I expect they had lots of chances like us of turning back. Only they didn't. And if they had, we shouldn't know because they'd have been forgotten. So your path is laid. She's got to chill. But you have to stay on it.

Exactly. Yeah. So I think that's where we are. So to go back to Galadriel and Halbrand, he says this thing to her in episode two, where he says you're the kind of person to whom things don't happen by accident. Right? I saw a lot of pushback on that sequence in episode two, where, first of all, how can Galadriel swim so long?

She's an elf. Legolas can walk on top of the snow. So I'm going to say Galadriel can swim. And I don't think it was her, I don't think when she jumped from the ship, she was like, I know if her certain I'm going to make it back to land. She's just like, I have to go, whether or not I find a ship or I have to try. And then another critique. I saw was, my, my, my, wasn't it convenient that she met a raft of people on the open water?

Chance meetings. Chance hyphen meeting. That's where we are. Last thing, before we head off into another ring is just this idea. You already mentioned it. Stranger helping the Brandyfoot caravan because they can't do themselves. This idea of friendship. It sounds so simple. I can carry you, Master Frodo. Say I'm carrying. Frodo, it's very important, but also this idea of like, Nori taking in the stranger against all other advice reminds me of Frodo taking in Gallum against all of other advice. This is the dangerous creature.

Why are you bringing them with us? And I think the correct reading is they don't make it without taking Gallum in, you know? So there we are. Hearing you say that it sounds so simple, like it makes me think of that opening stretch of the first episode, Little Gladryl and Finn, our guy Finn.

That seems so simple, she said. And what was his reply? His reply was the most important truths often are. And that's part of why there's a lot of complexity and a lot of nuance in this story, but also part of the reason that it has been so lasting and has spanned decades and generations and has passed down from people

as something they cherish is because the most important truths often are. and those are a lot of the truths that are at the heart of the story. All right. We're going to hit the Flatsman Jetsam, which is our Easter aings and references corner real quick

before we go into the speculation ring. Anything you want to shout out here? I don't have a ton. I'm just dying at the outline, horse stuff, question mark. Rowan question mark. I don't know. Why is a sealed or a horse guy

if not to make us think of Rohan? I don't know. Galadriel. ride to all of law really something I think for me it was no one kneels and

Numeror had to be you kneel to no one yeah the playoffs are here and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul predicts follow all the playoff

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Speculation ring. Okay? Yeah. I have so much to say. I can't wait. I can't wait. We're going to briefly move through this Theo thing. We got a lot of emails about is,

is Arunde or Theo's dad because Theo's haircut is so dumb, it hides his ears and does he have Elf years? I'm going to hard no on that one from me. Remarkable. Yeah, I'm going to say no as well. Bronwyn and Arondere just give me vibes of we have not consummated this thing yet. That's where I am, you know,

but like Aron there reaching out the only kind touch I've known and all my days in the land and literally saying I've said it in all the ways I can but words. I don't think that those two have gotten to the fucking yet. But I hope they do.

I hope they do. Like, fingers crossed. All right. Will Theo become a Nazgul? We talked about the ring rifts, the NASGool. Yes, maybe. But what I will say is that what I want for him is an arc. Characters are only interesting if they're on an arc.

And so Theo starting out as a kind of shitty, bratty racist kid and then becoming an evil NASGool, I need an arc towards the good before we go back to the Nazgul. You know, like I don't want to watch. a bad person stay bad, you know what I mean? So like, that's sort of I am with that. I'm okay with it. I just, I have more to say about arcs in a second. Which brings us to Hallbrand.

Okay, I was just going to say this could have been the entire pod. Seriously. This is the richest text. Oh, my God. Insane. And like the way I had to keep my mouth shut when you're talking about the fact that he's, okay. So let's talk with the king theory quickly.

Gladrill accuses him of it. He says, I'm not the hero you seek. It was my family who lost the war. War. Actually, he says it was his family lost war, I believe, is what he says. I'm just going to say it. I don't, I, I, the number one thing I believe that Hal Brand said in this episode was, I got this off a dead guy. That's what I think. I do not think he is the, the king who was promised. Where are you with this? Really? Really. I've swung all the way back to Team Sauron. Where are you with Halbron? Okay, I will say, and we're going to get to this in a second,

And you have, and this is not an exaggeration, like 50 bullet points to break out here. There's so much evidence. It is a deeply compelling. Hal Brandis Saran episode. Deeply compelling. I did buy the, this is his lineage and this is his king. He is the king in waiting just because, so I'm looking at the quote now, for it was my family that lost the war.

It was his ancestor who swore a blood oath to Morgas. So yeah, he. He's moving out of the his admire. He seemed incredibly worried and afraid of his own capacity to do terrible things in that moment. But even that, you could make work for the other case instead. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

All right. We're going to start this. We're going to start this Saran stretch. This is like with a tremendous email. Okay. Are you ready? Amazing. Yeah.

Yes. I'm so excited. from Bertrand. Yeah. And this is about Sauron and Halibrand and also the TV show Lost three of our fondest passions, Mallory. Okay. The second episode of Rings of Power, by the way, was titled Adrift, which is also Season 2 episode two title of Lost, which features Sawyer on a raft, by the way. Okay, email from Bertrand.

I couldn't see this story of a sexy rogue on a raft without getting some serious Sawyer vibes. When that necklace popped out, his shirt, it might as well have been Sawyer with a rigged briefcase saying, oh, you really weren't supposed to see that. Freckles won't work here, but what's a good nickname he might be able to get away with as he gets to know, Galadriel? So if you're not watched the TV show lost, you should.

The character of Sawyer, fantastic, con man extraordinaire, owner of our hearts. Mallory, do you have a good, a good, Halbrair nickname for Galadro? I could see him going with Goldie.

Goldie's an actual character named Goldie on the show, so that might be complicated if these plot lines cross at some point. but yeah, you can see Goldie. I was just going to lift directly from a Sawyer nickname for Juliet and say Blondie. So we're on the same track. Goldie or Blondie?

There we go. Okay. Is this moment where Hallibrand first pauses outside of the blacksmith forge and then later goes in and asks for a job and says there's not another person in this aisle who knows his craft better than I? Mallory, how did you respond? This was the like animated blackmail. glaring sirens moment. And there are a lot of them. But, I mean, the actual things that he says in that sequence when he's trying to work his

way in there, the better than I line, of course. But even after that, he says, please and I won't forget it, this idea of like favor versus favor trading. Very alarming. But given Sauron's standing as a smith, this is. just incredible red flag territory for his Hal Brown-Sauron. And you noted the pause outside the shop. The only way I can think to describe the look on his face is hunger.

Lust and hunger. Like a gentle smirk also. Just sort of like, this is how I do it. It's sort of how I felt like to me. Okay, the name moment. As you mentioned, the watchword and says, also deeply worrying. Deeply worrying.

The watchwarden says to Aron, dear Saran was said to have many names and days old. when a member of the smithing guild asks Halberin, what are you called? He says, depends on what, on how close we are. Wow. Okay. Depends. The gifts he gives, Anatar, Sauron, not only a famous smith, but a gift giver. The gifts he gives when he buys a round for everyone.

The way in Grecians, Asians himself. I don't know why I couldn't say the word. My friends, he says, as he starts his, you know, plea to Queen Muriel. in the throne room, right? When they're walking through Newmanore and Galadryl's talking about it, and he says, do I detect a note of envy? I feel like he's always poking and prodding her for the darker instincts inside of her, that he's always just sort of like, what is that?

And also, if you were Sarin, let's say, would he not be looking for weaknesses to exploit later? Is that envy? Can I use that? What is that? Yeah. Okay? Yeah. Yep.

Got this off a dead guy. Yeah. I just believe that he did. I believe that he found the dead king that was promised and took his pouch, okay? Uh-huh. Accent watched him less sure on this one, but like, okay, let's say he's not a man from the Southlands. I rewatch the beginning of the Roth sequence, and I feel like his accent gets thicker once he decides that he is from the Southlands. I totally agree.

I thought his accent was noticeably shifting. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. he keeps mentioning this army thing. Maybe he's just a big little finger fan. He's mentioned this army thing twice. He mentions it on the raft.

Deeply concerning. And then he mentions it here with it. He's like, he still don't have that army. Like, if he's Sauron is trying to goad galadryl into mustering some sort of army for him, this is the best way he could go about doing it being like you and what army elf commander? Anything else you want to say about that? Well, if we take that same point, and look at that from the Galadriel side,

it would fit with the conversation between Gilgalad and Elrond from Premier Week about what they feared would happen if Galadriel stayed. Exactly. Oh, no! Yeah, will she be the thing to bring Sauron back?

Okay, but there's some other things that, like, don't really fit, but I figured out a way to shoothorn them into fitting anyway because I love a theory. Though you mentioned the line, I've been searching for my piece longer than you know. and he says to her at the very least do not try to make any new enemies and he says I'm here to start a new lend me that chance please and I won't forget it you mentioned that as well okay this idea of starting over so I was trying to figure out what Sauron is doing for the first part of the second age post fall of more gothoth pre coming to a reggieon to come fuck with killibrimbor etc and it's the best explanation and please email us at hobbits and dragons at gmail.com if you know of an unfinished tale that tells us better is he's mustering support in the east and the south.

But what if I'm J.D. and Patrick and I'm writing this and I'm like, wondering if there's a moment where his master is beaten and Sauron's like, what do I do now? And maybe we're meeting a Sauron who's like, should I just start over and go to Numeron and just like be a guy again? Go back to my roots and just like try to be good again? Do you know what I mean? And so we're maybe getting a morally gray Sauron. which is a wild thing, but what do you think about it?

Mallory Rubin. I just have to say, your commitment to a theory and to be here work is extraordinary. Are we sure Sauron's bad is an all-timer? What? I applaud and admire your conviction. Okay. Her Tolkien, Tolkien wrote like all tyrants, Sauron had started with good intention but was corrupted by power,

and then he went further than human tyrants and pride. less than for domination. Now, he's talking about pre-Morgoth, that before he met Morgoth, but you, the Sauron comp in biblical conversation is like, morgoth is Satan, but Sauron is like Lucifer,

like the angel who fell, right? And so, is this like Sauron in like slight tail between his legs mode? Like, it was my family who lost the war. That's the line I'm thinking of. Okay. So then here's my question about this part. Yeah.

Like I said, I just, I love the hustle here. This is remarkable. How do we, how do we make that fit with what we're seeing from, in the Southlands from Adar and the orcs? Like, if he's not working on Sauron's behalf to create that paradise for evil, then what is all of that about? That's a great question. I don't have an answer for that. To me continue. I want to hit this email from Alexia because it's just right up your street, Mallory, and I can't. I couldn't resist putting in here because, like, they're giving him that Eragorn reluctant leader vibe, no matter what is happening here. I'm still hardcore team Sauron, but they're giving him

that reluctant leader vibe leaning into that area of gray, no matter what, a gray area for Halbra and much more boormier than anyone else that we can compare him to. Alexi writes, thoroughly enjoying the ongoing discussion of reluctant leader versus the assertive leader. I agonized over this question more than a person should. Fantasy is the best genre at depicting what I ultimately think is the messy truth. Good and bad leaders come in all varieties of willingness to lead. This is a Thrones. Ned and John are reluctant.

I think ultimately good leaders, though not good at the game. Also Thrones. Brian and Aria are eager leaders and excellent at it. Tom and is a reluctant leader and very bad at it. Back to Lord of the Rings. Frodo is both reluctant and assertive. He realizes, I must take it. He's also equal parts good and bad leader.

Over to Harry Potter. Harry is reluctant while Hermione is eager. As Sirius says, we've all got light and dark inside us. What matters is the part we choose to act on. That's who we really are. In other words, the willingness or belief in ourselves is not the measure of our abilities. It's how we use them when we choose to reluctantly or not. Mallory, Rubin.

Harry Potter is here. Reluctant leaders are here. How do you feel about this? A beautiful email. I think it's incredibly well put. And when we're talking about this idea and in general, our heroes and the characters and the quests and their journeys, it's never neat and tidy, at least not when it's really compelling.

And we can look here even like a character like Nori is a really interesting way into this idea. because Nori is so eager and so in the face of everything that she has been taught to believe and internalize her entire life, she is saying, I must go do the thing. And there is still that very quintessential, as you said earlier, Frodo, Bilbo, like the smallest person can help to shape the course of events, Tolkien idea at the heart of it that we love so much and everybody other than Chris Ryan loves so much because it's,

inextricable from what this story is about. Chris. So, yeah, for me, it's never about purely whether there is an eagerness to take that step out the door or a desire to stay inside. I think that the call to adventure and the desire and willingness to participate is something that's crucial for many of these characters. I think it's more like what we talked about. God, we are doing so many.

Pods, Joe, and I'm loving them all, but I won't. say I can't remember which one this exact conversation was on most recently, whether it was rings of power or House of the Dragon. But it's, it's so much to me about, actually what we were talking about earlier today, it's that intention. And when that intention becomes corrupted or corrosive in some way and the thing that you are seeking in the pursuit for power, for leadership to be the one who offers to take the ring into murder, whatever the case may be, is because you think you're the only one who can or that nobody else is capable or that you need to be the one to ensure that everybody else falls into line exactly in the vision for how you think the world should go.

Because then that becomes fascism and tyranny. And then you're sarah and you're not Frodo. So I think that there's there's this spectrum and all of these different strands of tendencies and behavior and the respect that you have for other people along with your ability to find that belief and respect for yourself. All of those things are, I think, inextricer. when we talk about this. Speaking of that, balance of good and evil, I want to talk about

the last bullet point I have under this Albrides Saran case, which is, if he is, is this not a really interesting way for us to explore

Galadriel touching the darkness, which is what Finrod says. You have to touch the darkness before you can truly know what the light is. This idea of, when we think about Galadriel, and again,

this is a prequel, quote unquote, problem, if not done properly, What are the stakes? We know she's right that Sauron's out there, and we know she survives all of this, right, to be the Lady of the Woods. So I think what is vital is that she is wrong about some things

on her road here. And the question is like, just how wrong, just how close is she going to get to the darkness? Again, the Better Call Saul comp comes to mind. I like this idea of literally touching the darkness. We've had shots in both episode two and episode three of her and Halbrain grasping each other by the forearm

like pulling up on the raft and giving the dagger back moment. This idea of true lights versus false lights that she talks about, this idea that like Halbrain might be a false friend just light reflecting back at her. This idea of heroism. She's come up with this whole narrative that he's

the king. She's put this on him. She has created this persona for him. And then when she says, again, this idea this darkness in her reflected back. I love, I just keep coming back to that moment she had with Elron in episode one when she says, if the darkness is not gone, if the darkness is already gone in land, why is it still

exist in me? Why is it still here? When we see her in the front of waif, in the frozen wasteland at the beginning, she sees her reflection on the icy wall and she punches it. It's a very ray last of the Jedi moment, but she plays. punches her own reflection. She has this self-loathing. She says to him that she is offering him redemption for his bloodline, but also for hers. There's this guilt. There's this thing that's driving her. It's not just that, like, Galadriel is this beautiful fairy princess who is right

about everything and good at everything. That's how boring. What a boring story. This is a conflicted, prideful, ripe for the fall kind of elf who has many tests she has to pass. before she becomes the Lady of the Woods. And if that test comes, you know, roguish, stubbly, salt water in the hair package, like, how can we blame her for getting so close to it? I love that. I find that very convincing. And I think this also connects to that, the lovely email that you just shared and that idea, again,

of the shape that leadership takes in the story and the need to kind of, find your way to that sweet spot because Galadriel is a character we are rooting for, a character we believe in a character, we are invested in a character who we cheer for and we find inspiring in so many different respects. I also think that when she says a cage you have landed in because you chafe under the rags of the common, that's like pretty elitist and weird. Not great. And the fact that her, so many of her fellows, she has completely alienated in her unflinching, unyielding pursuit of the one truth that she is sure she cannot, cannot have miscalculated at all is a dangerous level of certainty in myopia, even in a character who we are

inclined to believe and cheer for. So there's that complexity there that I really like and agree with you is ultimately much more interesting than just the character that we think is the hero in day one being right about anything. Why bother watching? So again, arcs, arcs. Like, is Sauron on an arc? Is Saran going to, like, flirt with the idea of being good and then just like, no. Turns out, I mean, it will incarnate. It's fine. All right. Anything else you want to say about Halibrand before we move on to The Stranger?

I'm still equally excited about the idea that he'll end up being the witch king. Okay. But the Saran cases, again, like, to me, it's actually just that there's so much evidence. No matter what, it's very compelling. And, like, if he's not Saran, they're playing with us so, so. Yeah, exactly. Like, the only real challenge I have is, is it too abundant the case at this point? Only three episodes in.

I think it sort of depends on like if you spend several hours a week podcasting about a show or not, how evident some like a theory is. Do you know what I mean? Happy to be wrong. I often am wrong about a theory. Equally happy to be wrong. All right. The stranger. Last week we said, we do not think the stranger is sour and we got a great email from Phil who's like, yes.

and the most essential plot point of the Lord of the Rings, both story and movies, is that as Gandalf explains of Frodo and Fellowship, hitherto, hitherto, mind you, Sauron has entirely overlooked the existence of hobbits. So it's very important that Sauron has never met a Hobbit and or a Harfoot. Okay. Then we got one 11 eGa gajillion emails

from people saying, you're overthinking it. This is definitely Gandalf. It's not one of the Astaire. He's not one of the blue wizards, not whatever. This is Gandal. This is certainly where the internet landed. My favorite example of this is like, and like, so when he's, the whispering to the fireflies is one thing.

But when he turns and yells at Nory and all the trees bend with him and people are reminded of Ian McKeown. Do not take me for some calls or on cheap tree. And Ian McAllen gets really big in the screen. All right. The other thing is that the translation of what he was saying is secret flame. I knew someone would translate it right away. Secret flame. During the fight with the Balrog, this is more from Phil.

During the fight with Balrog, Ganof declares himself to be a servant of the secret fire and wielder of the flame of Anor. Secret flame, or the flame imperishable is the fire. Okay, so basically this is like the creative energy at the heart of the world. And it is very important that as a servant of the secret fire, Gandalf is an angelic defender of the creative force. This goes back to that creator conversation we were having earlier. Gandalf is an angelic defender of the creative force at the heart of the universe.

It is a flame because it ultimately consumes everything that rejects being in existence. It is cool to Norie's touch, not because it is so evil it consumes all heat, but because it's the kind of flame that only cauterizes corruption and Nori is not corrupt. She's a proto-hobbit, a hardfoot, humbly in tune with good earth, good drink, and good cheer. The flame imperishable will burn her. they just make her cheeks extra ready. Wow. So that's from Phil.

Come on, ringerverse. What an email. I loved it. I've got an email from Chris detailing like, you know, when Gandalf the gray comes back as Gandalf the white, he talks about how he came back naked and confused with no memory and all sort of stuff. So if this is indeed Gandalf, I've included for you here, Mallory, a screenshot from the episode of The Stranger.

This killed me. With his abs a out. So, you thought hot Sauron would be the talk of the town, but may I present to you, Gandalf with abs. I love it. I'm here for it. Last but not least. We're almost done with this ring. And then we're going to zip through the last ring, I promise.

Last but not least, this is my favorite just because it's so bananas. But I saw it everywhere, including on TikTok. Love this from Olivia email. Among more gosh most dangerous servants, they are called Umayar in Quina. These include Sauron. And Gothmog, Lord of the Ballrogs, large demonic beings of flame and shadow, armed with fiery whips, is the stranger.

Actually a ballrog in human guys. I don't think so. But I love it. Wow. Basically, if we're counting on the Maya, that includes Saran, the Wizards, and the ballrogs. So they're in the bucket.

Didn't know that a Belrog could be such a pal helping to carry the cart during the migration. Didn't know Barag never skips, never skips Abday. Yeah, I am officially going with this is Gandalf. How about you? Genoa. I regret overthinking it. It's probably just Gandalf. I just thought that they wouldn't.

Gandalf doesn't come to the third age. And I thought they weren't missing that much with the timeline. But I'm not mad about it. It's fine. Okay. Last and not least, we're going into the third ring, the forbidden point. book reader spoiler section. This is just like all hands on deck.

Here we go. First, I need to issue a correction, and Mallory can be my witness. The Moria gate thing. Last week, I moved this out of the non-spoiler section into the spoiler section that I forgot to say it. But I do know that Calibranbor builds the gates of Moria. You saw that in the notes last week, Valerie. We got a lot of emails about this.

Calibranbor builds the gate of Moria. I just wasn't sure that that was the right entrance. But the cool gate we see that slides back with the gold thing and the guy's like, no salted pork for you. Yeah. And Kelbrimbor looked at that. It was like, I can do better. He's going to build that gate later as part of his own.

But we felt like it was spoilery to say that the dwarves and the elves would enjoy a convivial relationship going forward. We felt like that was a spoiler. So we moved to the spoiler section. All right. The anti-elve sentiment in Newman,or. What do you want to say about this, Mallory? I don't know. We talked about a good amount already.

I mean, I'm interested in chatting more about Muriel and Farazahn. Farazan because... Yeah, this is your palace intrigue if you're looking for it, right? Yeah. And in addition to, I mean, again, you said we're in the third ring here. So anything's on the table, including the pursuit of immortality, you know? And how that... Yeah, so if people don't know this, right?

I mean, that's why I kind of want to talk about this anti-elf. The elf thing is envy. Yes. Is the humans of nominorians are like, long life is nice. But what about no death? What about eternal life? And they basically, like the dwarves, dig too greedily and too deep and challenge the gods and say like an al-Farazan with Sauron whispering in his ear is sort of the spear tip of this drive

to get to Valanor from Newmanore. So let's get in the boats and let's go not east to Middle Earth. Let's go west. That's when Alan Deals like, there's nothing forest over that. Like, let's go west to Valanor. Gods don't like it.

They sink. Numonore to the ocean. It's tough. Yeah. Lovely, lovely place. Before Al Farazan does this, he forces Tar Mareel, the queen.

She's the queen region right now. She becomes the queen when her father officially dies. He forces her and their cousins. He forces her to marry him so that he can be king. That's on Thrones these shit right there, big time. The difference between Alendiel, I saw a lot of purists were pissed about this because the line that he says, that line that you read about like, basically let the past I kill it, if you must, that Elendil says is in the trailer. And a lot of people were mad about this because Alendale was one of the most faithful, one of the most self-friends. But again, I will take this change in the text if it means I'm watching a character on an arc.

If I'm watching Elendil get to that point. If we learn that Anarion is right, I don't really understand the voice calling to a Sealdor. I actually didn't even really understand what shore he was looking at. Was he looking at Numenor? It was a golden shore with no buildings on it. So I couldn't tell where he's looking. Is that meant to be Valinor? Is that meant to be Middle Earth?

Is that meant to be the western side of Newman, or I'm not Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com if you have any thoughts or feelings about that? Last but not least, I want to talk about a Sealedor himself and how his choice is dramatically, I think, simplified and changed for the Peter Jackson films in a way that I think we're going to see the more nuanced version of this. Patrick McKay, when I talked to him like a year ago,

about his Seildor. He compared him to Michael Corleone from the godfather. This idea of a character that we meet and we meet him and he like him and he's on the outside of the family and then, you know, if you've seen the godfather, you know what happens there.

A slow corrosive corruption of someone or whatever. But what's interesting about what happens with the Sealedor, the no. The very Captain Merca, no. I don't think I will. Throw the ring in the fires of Mordor that a seal door gives. That account comes from Elron and Galadj.

in the books and films. This is an elf's perception of what happened here. And it is Elron's case that he's making for the fragility and the weakness of men. We cannot leave this up to men. I know what men are capable of, right? Tolkien tells the story very differently in the unfinished tales. Tolkien, again, constantly in that garden, weeding and pruning and replanting and tweaking his stories. When a seal door, a seal door does not throw the ring in the fire, not because he's like, can't wait to be uber powerful myself. It is a word he uses

a wear guilt, a memento of what I have lost here, which is my father and my brother have died here, and I am taking this as a token of their loss. He goes to rule over Gondor, not evilly, like he is a good ruler over

Gondor, and then after a time gives the rule of Gondor over to his family. He's on his way back to Rivendell when he gets attacked by some war. He sends his vassal off with the shards of Narsal so that the sword could be reforged later. And then his son says, go take your burden. Bring it to the keepers, meaning bring it to the elves and Rovindel, the keepers of the three. And Issylodar says, I know that I must do so, but I feared the pain, nor could I go without your leave.

Forgive me and my pride that has brought you to this doom. and then once he loses the ring in the water, which we see in the Peter Jackson films, the ring had gone, the pain had left him, a great burden having taken away. He's so much more Frodo-like than, you know, that boiled-down version would have us believe here. What do you think of this difference in a Seilder's choice

and this sort of like Reader's Digest version we get elsewhere? Oh, okay. So I agree with you that the show will have the space and the time to explore that complexity. I think that the point you made about perspective and who is passing down a given recounting and who is telling a certain story of events is always worth keeping in mind with what we think we know or what we have seen from the future. and part of what I always love about a prequel and why I'm always in the... I can't wait to get a prequel camp is because, one, I'm a glutton for punishment, of course,

but also because I like to see the first-hand account of what actually happened to know for sure. So I was struck by in the training sequence when they've returned, they're off their ships and they're on the beach and their commander, their trainer, says there is no harsher master than the sea. And I was just like,

how about the one ring? You know? And like what that would do to a person over time and the way that he is already being pulled and called. But then, if we think about that puppet show dinner, I already talked about, I was pretty shook, but in a very compelling way, by another part of that exchange

that we actually haven't talked about in as much depth yet today, which was Elendale saying, I know you've doubts, son, but can you not trust that I have ever your best interest at heart? The watery path of this world has a way of healing even the deepest of wounds.

And Asildor's response in that moment is the way it's healed yours, like doubting, right? I see how much pain you are still in. But the watery path and healing even the deepest of wounds and that sense of this pain that you carry really fits, I think, and aligns with the passage you just read. I love that.

So, Aseldor, our Moana, if you will. Looking out on the horizon, wanted to go. Yeah, Maxine Baldry, who's an actor I really enjoy, who's so good in years and years and other things. I'm really excited that we're going to be with him for the duration of this show, provided it gets to reach its natural conclusion.

Anything else you want to say here in the Third Ring or anywhere else before we go? I don't think so. I'm having a blast. I can't wait for episode four. I'm already, I'm doing that thing that I do or I'm like already thinking about how close it is to being over instead of just enjoying it. I don't know what's wrong with me. I thought about that today. We'll be halfway done.

I know. Sad. Please folks keep sending me your emails. We love your emails. Thank you so much. But also like people are sending us like book, Tolkien book recommendations, Podcasts, I'm, like, really enjoying. I consider myself like a Tolkien officiantado, but not like a scholar.

And I like that this feels a bit like some scholarship for us on top of, like, discussing the show we're enjoying. So having a lot of fun. Come back here. Let's talk about Tits and Dragons. So we're in House of the Dragons. Yeah. We'll be here on Sunday to talk about that with Chris Ryan. We'll be back on Tuesday with our deep dive, the Midnight Boy.

no doubt we'll be talking about this week's House of the Dragon on Wednesday. And then there will, of course, be She-Hulk. I think, you know, we're getting some great She-Hulk content coming up. And then we'll be back from Rings of Power. That's the cycle. That's our little hard-foot cycle that we're on. The great migration of content. Many thanks to my cherished and beloved, Mali Rubin,

to the great Artuna Rangipal for his production work on this. to Joe me a dinner on for his work on social. And of course, to our, like, wonderful Steve Allman for stepping in to produce this show today. The road leads ever on. And we'll be back next week. Bye. What's the difference between butter and butter made from real California dairy? It's the real California farm families behind it.

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