The Ringer-Verse - 'The Rings of Power' Episode 6 Deep Dive | House of R

Episode Date: September 30, 2022

Joanna and Mal journey to Middle-earth once again to talk about the latest episode of 'The Rings of Power.' They start by discussing their overall impressions of the episode (8:13). Then, they go for a Helm's-Deep deep dive into the episode to break down all the details and character moments (23:13). Later, they discuss their theories after this episode’s explosive ending (1:41:32). If you would like to email Mal and Joanna about the show, you can reach them at [e-mail] Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Associate Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Social: Jomi Adeniran Addition Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Yossi Salick, and I'm the host of Bansplain, a show where we explain cult bands and iconic artists by going deep into their histories and discographies. We're back with a brand new season at our brand new home, the Ringer podcast network, tackling a whole new batch of artists, from grunge gods to power pop pioneers to new metal legends and many, many more. Listen to new episodes every Thursday, only on Spotify. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Trimphia, proper training is required.

Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfairadio.com.

Want to support your gut health? Take Activia's gut health challenge by enjoying two activities. Octavio yogurt today for two weeks and see if you feel a difference. With billions of probiotics and 20 years of scientific expertise, Activia is one of the easiest and tastiest ways to start your gut health ritual. Try Activia today. Enjoying Activia twice a day for two weeks as part of a balanced diet and healthy lifestyle may help reduce the frequency of minor digestive discomfort,

which includes gas, bloating, rumbling, and abdominal discomfort. It is strange. Most of my life, I've looked east to see the sun rise over the sea, and west the sea it's set over the land. We're sailing into the dawn and yet to me. It feels like the coming of night. Welcome back into the ringer verse. Your Nexus podcast feed for all things fandom.

I'm Joyner Robinson. Joining me today. Now that she's finished writing a lengthy fan fiction devoted to Ellen Deals wig, it is Mallory Rubin. Hello, Mallory, how are you? Joe, don't tempt me. That sounds like a great way to. past the weekend. My goodness, this will test your nerve. Let it. I started the episode with an

Ellen Deal quote just for Mallory, because I just need you all to know that every time she watches an episode of the show, I get a text that's just like Ellen Dale. Wow, essentially. Anyway, hi, we're here to talk about rings of power, not just Ellen Deal, but all of it. Episode six. I don't know what the title of this episode is because Amazon has not told us, So it is not out there in the world. So mystery title, don't know what it's called, but here we are to talk about it. You think it's called Before Door No More Door? Yes.

You think that's it? Could that be it? I think maybe it's called Oruk. Anyway. We're going to talk about rings and power, but first we're going to talk about what else we're doing in the Ring of Verse, which is so much. There's so much going on. I assume that if you're listening to this, you're listening. to Mallory and yours truly cover House the Dragon. But in case you're not, guess what?

We do it twice a week, once on Sundays with Chris Ryan. And then again on Tuesday for many hours at a time, just the two of us. And you do it a third time. Child by content on Thursday. So there's a lot of House the Dragon coverage going on the Midnight Boys, Pugh, Pugh, are in Andor. We remain jealous of them. We can't.

No, I don't want this to end. But then also I can't wait to talk about Andor. So it's a lot going on. She-Hulk. We're continuing our weekly cover of She-Hulk. And then also something, I don't know, we tend not to announce things too far. I just know that Wehrwolf by Night is coming and I'm very excited about it. And I hope that hopefully I'll get to cover that somewhere on our feet as well.

So that's a lot of stuff that's coming. In the Ringervverse World, you can catch up on all shows, not just our genre shows that we cover, but all shows. If you want to check out the Ringers Streaming Guide, which is a great. resource on the ringer.com what a website that both Mallory and I contribute to, just curating shows for you every week and go check that out. Hobbiton Dragons at gmail.com. Mallory Rubin, who should write into Hobbitson and Dragons at gmail.com? Anyone. Everyone, everyone, family members, friends, listeners, former high school professors and teachers. Yeah. Pen pals, people you used to go to camp with, people that you've never met, but maybe one day will.

Great. Whoever you call Lord Father, whoever you call your children. I wonder if people listening to tell that neither of us have gotten a lot of sleep recently. Your horse that you share an apple with in an uncomfortable way. Oh, sweet barrack, sweet barrack. Joe, people who are maybe worried about your current COVID that you've been miraculously and astoundingly potting through. they can email you and give you beautiful handcrafted illustrations of custom rings of power care. I did get one of those. People can reach out if they have questions about Halloween costumes.

Yeah. That's a really fun question. Let's remember to answer that question on House of the Dragon next week. Anyway, yeah, Mallory is just obliquely referring to a bunch of emails. We've gotten so many emails. They've all been wonderful. One of them was for my English teacher, Phil Goodyear is who, by the way, I don't know if he knows this was my favorite English teacher. I was definitely not his favorite student because I was not a great student but he was my favorite English teacher,

taught me a lot is apparently listening to this podcast which throws me to know in. I actually wanted to be an English teacher forever because of people like Phil Good Years and it's wonderful. It's kind of what we do a little bit on this podcast, a little English teacher.

Absolutely. Wick crit mixed with dick jokes. Let's ride. Well, our brand is so strong. Other than Havasend Dragons at Gmail.com, how else can people follow all of the Ringarverse content, Mallory Rubin? How indeed, Joe.

You can follow the pod on Spotify or wherever they get their podcasts. And if you're listening to this, you're probably already doing it. But if you're just, if you're parachuting in, checking it out, hey, come back, visit with us again, follow the pod. You can also follow the ringerverse across. our myriad social feeds. We are everywhere. The ringerverse is on Twitter.

The ringer versus on Instagram. The ringer versus on TikTok. You guys remember peach? That was a social media platform about six, seven years ago. If that still existed, we'd be on peach. We're everywhere. Find us. Every time you've made a peach joke, which surprisingly has been more than once,

I loved peach. Chris Ryan and Julieta and Matt and Sean Fantasy and I had a really great week and a half on Peach together back in the day. Charming. All right. Spoiler warning. As always, it's complicated. I've decided to complicate it a little bit more this week.

Usually we do three rings, right? Three rings of spoilers. I liked it because it matched three rings for Alvin Kings. All right. Anyway, we're not doing that this week because the last couple weeks I've struggled to find something to put in the third ring. So right now we're just doing two rings. and will I reserve the right to add that third ring back if something occurs to me. But for right now, two rings.

So here's how it goes. First ring, as you know, Mallory Rubin, Joanna Robinson, rewatch the Lord of the Rings every single year. The Peter Jackson films, we've seen them many times. We're not going to pretend we have it. So there's that. We've also read the books. We're not going to pretend we have it. However, we're not going to, you know, we went through the outline this week and we moved some things out of the first ring because we're like,

maybe more casual watchers don't want to know this yet. So we're mindful that not everyone wants every scrap of book detail as we dive into the show. So that's ring one. Ring two. Speculation City, that's when we bring in book knowledge to speculate about what we think might be going on. There's a bunch of mysteries. Who's that guy? Who's that girl? What's going on? Who are they going to be? Blah, theory corner. Big fan of it myself, really enhancing my enjoyment of the show. Join us. and ring two if you want. If not, that's when you bounce. No ring three this week. We'll see if it returns next week and that's it. That's it. That's the spoiler warning. Beautiful. Beautiful. All right. Let's get started. Okay. A long expected party. This is our opening snapshot.

This is episode six. Again, we don't know the title written by Justin Doewell, directed by Charlotte Branstrom. Did we like it, Mallory Rubin? How did you feel about this episode of television? this was my least favorite episode of the season. And I would say that the first half-ish, maybe like two-thirds even, was my least favorite stretch of the season by a comfortable margin. I really enjoyed bits and pieces

of what was happening inside of that stretch. But, you know, I've been very, very, very high on the show through the first five episodes. And that wasn't quite hitting me the way the prior episodes had. I enjoyed the end of this episode quite a bit. Not only the climactic conclusion, but some very intriguing,

clue-laden exchanges and conversations in the final 20-ish minutes. So that part I liked a lot. How about you? How did you feel about episode six? Yeah, I would agree. It's funny. We've gotten a lot of feedback from people saying,

hey, you guys don't ever criticize this show. And I just want to say a couple things I guess the way that we sometimes find criticism for House of the Dragon. And I will say I have been I've been very honest with how much I enjoy the show. We're both really enjoying the show.

We're not being dishonest with how we feel about the show. For my part, I'm not speaking for Mallory here, but for my part, I think there's a lot of unfair criticism being lobbied at this show. And so lobbed is actually the word I wanted. So I think that I think maybe I've been like easing back on some of, I think, the fair criticism that this, you know, show could stand because I didn't want to get mixed up in some of the just really, I think, deeply unfair stuff that's being talked about around the show.

So, but I do think this is a good episode to talk about what we think is working and what we think isn't or could be improved upon. This is, I guess, what would be the Rings of Power version of a battle episode, right? This is a battle episode of television. We are very familiar with those from covering Thrones. thinking about what makes the battle episode work, or, you know, and certainly in the years that I covered battle episodes on Thrones, almost every time I would rewatch the Battle of Helms Deep from the Two Towers film because I think it is the pinnacle of battle filmmaking, especially certainly genre battle filmmaking. And so it's all in conversation with each other, right? So what does this

have to do with the Battle of Helms Deep? What does this have to do with Thrones battle episodes? Something I will say is something that's so smart. about the back two-thirds of Lord of the Rings is that we spread our brightness and good humor and our comic relief around, you know what I mean? We've got you've got Mary and Pippen in crucial places. You've got stuff going on with Gimley and Legolas. The people didn't always enjoy in the Peter Jackson films, but I did. You've got just like necessary levity.

And I will say, I think Mallory and I have been really enjoying. We've been thoroughly enjoying the Elron and Doran relationship. We've found a lot to enjoy in the Harfuts. And we like these other storylines, but they're very much lacking in lightness or comic relief. There's like no one, I mean, Waldrick is pretty funny, but like other than that, like, there's not a lot of. Unintentionally so. Yeah, there's not a lot of balance, right? And so I think this episode just felt imbalanced in terms of like that lightness and the seriousness.

And so I would agree with Mallory that like not until the end. when we've got some of the Galadriel Habran Ador stuff. Exactly. That's what really worked for me. I want to read this email when we got from a listener named James, because I was actually talking on trial by content, about not hearing from a ton of people about how much they love rings of power. So James wrote this in, and I'm curious if you agree or disagree.

James wrote, I wanted to write in and say that I'm absolutely loving rings of power. Not everything about the show works. I think sticking Galadryl and a multi-episode cul-de-sac of a story, was an odd choice. But there's so much about the show that I absolutely love. Just let me follow those little hard foots forever. But watching the show just hits differently than House of the Dragon because the world of Tolkien is just different.

The number of times have been moved to tears by Rings of Power in its first season is way more than I ever have been while watching anything set in the Martin universe. Also, I generally listen to your deep dives in the car. There have been a few moments when I have been glad to have adaptive cruise control because your invocation of Tolkien lore and mythos has the same effect. love to make people cry. I was trying to think about why these shows hit so differently, and I think that the main reason is the motivation of people we are supposed to be cheering for in these shows.

Almost every character in Martin's universe is motivated by their own self-interest. John always stood out as the hero that's show because he's the only one who isn't for personal glory. Arguably, Jamie, some of the time, but it's rare. In Tolkien's universe, our heroes are not motivated by land, title, gold, or even mostly glory. That's the difference. that's why that world hits so differently to me. It's because the reason those characters do what they do in the words of Sam is because they know there's good in this world and it's worth fighting for, a scene that always hits

no matter how many times I watch it. Tolkien's world is often derided as being black and white, but I think what people really mean is that Tolkien envisioned a world where our better angels convinced us to do things outside of our own self-interest rather than just be motivated by what helps us. And in a world where things often seem so bleak, that's why Tolkien's works move us. while Martin's works entertain us. Now, I already know Mallory's going to disagree with a few points here, and I'm inclined to agree with her disagreement.

But Mallory, hit me with your rebuttal. First of all, lovely email from James. James, thank you for letting us know that we've moved you to tears. That makes us really happy. Yeah. Touches us deeply. We've talked about this a little bit over the course of our pods, you know, this distinction in tone and the real emphasis of that moral gray,

particularly in House of the Dragons, but, you know, across the Martin verse, I think that certain aspects of what James is identifying here about like that sanctity and the purity of the light that some of the characters in the Tolkienverse are working toward and that their arcs orient around is irrefutably true. I mean, the through line, as we've talked about, you know, week after week here, the through line of rings of power, there are a few of them, But the dominant one is light and dark, the creep of the shadow and how you can tell the difference. So I think I agree with that.

I'm sure what you were alluding to and what won't surprise you to hear is that I don't agree. Though it's obviously fine for people to feel differently about this way. I don't personally feel that only a couple characters in the Martin verse in a song of ice and fire are, motivated by something other than self-interest or relatedly that it's like a less moving story. I mean, I've probably been brought to tears talking about Game of Thrones, maybe more than like anything else to this point. And I think that, you know, reading, reading those books, some of it is, maybe the emotional resonance is, it's hitting a different part of me or speaking to a different part of me, maybe it's like a little bit less often the who is willing to walk into the

fire of Mordor and often like it will be the loneliness that John feels when he's up at the wall and looking out to the world and thinking about all of the places that he'll never get to go again, right? Or the way that he and ghost were meant to each other, meant to be with each other because they were both separate and apart. Like those things, I can't, I've read those lines 400 times at this point in my life and I'll never not be brought to tears when I revisit them. Like, I think those are beautiful and, like, deeply resonant ideas. So I were, I can't, I cannot in good faith, or honestly agree with that part of the email. Though I, uh, I love obviously hearing how, how, how James is not only responding to terms of power, but how, uh, how, how the shows feel

distinct. Well, what do you think, Joe? I agree. I mean, I agree with you that John is certainly not the only character in the Martin verse who is motivated, who isn't motivated for personal glory. I think, you know, a lot of the starks, that idea of honor, all of that, Brienne, et cetera, you know, this, just because like you're chasing honor doesn't mean you're chasing glory at the same

time, if that makes sense. Yeah, and even if you want people to like respect you or value you or give you some sort of laurel that they have in previously, there could still be some like, something very heartening and moving about that. Like, you know, you know what line gets me every time, Joe,

in a Game of Thrones when he opened the door the light from within through his shadow clear across the yard and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king

like lines like that will just make me weep every time as we've always said as we've always said Martin is so deeply inspired by Tolkien so like you know

there are ways in which comparing the two currently running big genre shows the way There's a way in which it's like kind of superficial to do that and in a way unfair and all this other stuff. And there's a way in which it's inescapable that these two authors are in conversation with each other. So I think it's worth like checking in and thinking about.

We also got this email from Susan that I thought was really interesting. But what was Aragorn's tax policy? That's going to come back to us later in this episode. We got this email from Susan that I couldn't fit anywhere else in the episode. So I'm just going to put it up here as well. sort of in response to what we were talking about, in terms of the Mithril origin story that we got last week that a lot of book readers balked at, right?

So Susan wrote that this myth, she spelled Mithryl, M-Y-T-H-H-H-Rill. This fits with the themes of deception and desire for power that are major elements of Tolkien's work. And I think that's a funny counter to what James wrote, right? The episode has multiple examples of this from the comics side plot of Duren's Khan of Gil Gallid over the table. To Waldrick believing Adara Sauron, Sauron, to everyone in Newmaner... I'm not going to be glad.

To everyone in Newman were suddenly calling Halbran lord with very little evidence. Much of what is given sacred meaning or value can be tied to how a character feels about it. So Gil Gallad was to believe in the myth and Galadro wants to believe in Halbrand. Both Waldrick and Doran's spotlight show even a false belief or out. right lie can be as powerful as a real one. Waldrick needs to believe in a dark power so badly that he immediately shifts his allegiance to a new belief when he thinks his assumption is wrong. Dorian's lie is useful not only because it brings levity, but there's truth in simply

deciding that an object or person has value or meaning. Of course, the Meathril Explaner couldn't end up being true. And while that's a little head scratchy, it is far from world or canon breaking to me. There's always an adjustment for fans when it comes to adaptation choices. When I first watched Fellowship of the Ring, it took me time to get used to some of the changes from the book. For example, Arwen's flight to the Ford scene and scary Galadro felt over the top. Now I can't picture either seen any other way.

The Arwen moment at the Ford is so carved into my memory than when I was recently rereading the book to my son, I was surprised to realize that Frodo was alone on the horse, defying the Ring Rafe's, something I completely misremembered. So again, like, first of all, love the first half, about this, what we are quick to believe in this world. And then the second half, just this reminder of adaptation, holding things, again, my constant advice to hold things kind of loosely and be flexible. It is perfectly fine to balk in an adaptation choice that you feel does not match the intention of the author. That is a subjective call. And that is up to you to make that call and that is fine.

but I try to be open with changes and take a wait and see, is this going to feel right in the end? And maybe it will and maybe it won't, but I'm not going to balk at something immediately, depending on the thing, without knowing how the author wants it, the adapter wants it to play out. Mallory, what do you think about this?

I completely agree. You said it perfectly. You know, we talked about this a lot with Star Wars, like during the Obi-1. run and spoil Obi-1 for people here if they're not expecting that. But some of the things that were happening there, you know, there was a lot of debate about what that meant not only inside of the experience of watching Obi-1, but how that changed our understanding of a new hope in the original trilogy. And, you know, my feeling on that is, I think, reflective of my

feeling on adaptive changes more broadly, which is if they are true to the spirit of the story and the spirit of the characters and the intention of the world building, and that is not only maintained but enhanced, then I have the room in my heart, and sometimes it takes me a little time too. Like the, I love the part of Susan's email about kind of balking initially to change, and then you grow so used to it that it becomes embedded in your mind.

I feel that way about a lot of the different things in film and TV versus how I felt about them when I saw them for the first time and, like, stood up in a theater and shouted, it said, no one else is supposed to hear the problem. right now or something like that, right? Like plenty of moments like that in my life. But I don't want to never get a new Star Wars story because George Lucas didn't have everything figured out in 1977.

Luke and Leia tried to fuck each other at the beginning of Star Wars. And that changed pretty quickly. So I think we just have to have, we don't, nobody has to have anything. I shouldn't put it that way. I try to have an open mind about expanding the canon because ultimately I want to spend more time in these worlds. And then I want the people who are expanding the worlds to do so with care and an appreciation for why we want to be there in the first place. If they do that, great. And sometimes you see something you're like, wow, they just really didn't get it. They just

blew it and didn't get it. Absolutely. Yeah. That is not my feeling remotely about rings of power, which is why I think I'm more open to like, you know, I just feel the love for this world and for this lore in the show the care is here and the word choices and the language and the visuals and all of that. So let's get into this episode. Helms deep, deep dive into episode six. That's where we are, episode six. All right. So we're breaking down this battle in a few different sections, right?

So part one is the tower gambit, right? And this is when last week's episode ended with Brahmin being like, the tower will fall. Then she's like, oh, wait a minute. Is that just a great idea or what, right? All right. So we start with Adar. and his children at our doing

a very elfie thing, which is planting some of these alphren seeds, new life and defiance of death. We later hear Arondir and Bronwyn talking about the same exact like, you know,

ritual, pre-war ritual. This is, I was looking around, as far as I can tell, this isn't a real world thing that any warriors have done, even Vikings or anything like that,

to plant a tree before battle, but I think it's quite beautiful. And I think it fits into so much of what we talked about with Tolkien. What do you think? Yeah, absolutely. The idea of not only the way that the earth around us, the roots, the rock, have this memory of the events that they have borne witness to and that have transpired atop them or inside of them or around them or between these elements, but the way that

the different responses to that, whether you would seek to nurture, intend, to garden, to grow, to put your hands in that tilt earth as a sub-creator is about nurturing and finding way to funnel that light into something that you're building

with each other, or whether you would seek to cover that in masking the light in the shadow and the darkness. So it was really interesting to see that here with Adar and that tradition

that's linking these character sets because we've thought of him in many ways as the characters who is seeking because he says so aloud to, I'm not a god yet, but let's talk about how I want to remake the entire world blanketed in this darkness so that his children can exist in frolic freely.

It was a very nuanced on our episode across the board. Like there are moments, you know, later in his exchange with Galadriel, where you find yourself feeling more empathetic toward him than toward her. And I thought that that was an establishing note right here with the seeds and this idea of new life and defiance of death repeating across the storylines and the character sets. His new life is into the version of new life that our other characters are pursuing or that we would be inclined to support. But from his perspective, that is what he's doing too.

And I don't know how well those Alfred seeds are going to grow if we cover all the world in a second day. darkness, but, you know, but I love that visual of, you know, he's got that. Better read the back of the packet, see how much direct light. Are they a perennial? Like, what's the watering schedule? I think that, you know, that gauntlet he wears, that's super Saurani, right? And to watch that gauntlet dig into the earth, right? And to watch him perform this elven right of practice, right, of war.

But it's twisted because he has been twisted by his experience. So into something new, not an elf, but an Uruk. Uruk. hilarious cut to Waldrig in this speech when he's just like, have I made a huge mistake? Like, what am I doing here as monsters roar around him? You know? A grave error.

Yeah. Doesn't stop him. No. Play in his part. He's doing a lot of things in this episode. Also, I want to talk about, you talked about this overtly when Adar was sort of thrusting one of the orcs' arms into the sunlight, right? This idea of these orcs being very photosensitive. To be clear, that is true in Tolkien as well.

And so some of these moments of like, wait till the dawn. Wait till the dawn breaks. It's not just like the Tolkien light metaphor, but literally like the Orchian light metaphor, but literally like the Orks can't endure the sun. I think the fighting Urukai maybe can, but like the regular orcs can't endure the sunlight. And so, you know, there's moments of battle like a gondor or something like that. And like, you know, the witch king of Angmar is about to split Gandalfa Sunder and then the dawn breaks. And you hear the horns of the Roheorum, you know.

And it's not just that the Roherom are here, but like also the sun is here. And that is going to drive the fell beast back into the shadow. Okay. Osterith, I don't know, it comes down. Great, I mean, great move from Arandere. Great stuff. A one man, a solo mission. So some amazing acrobatics there.

Yeah. Right before he does this, though, Waldrick is asking Adar, where is Sauron? And we all inch closer on our chairs, sofas, wherever we're sitting to be like, where is he? And then he get, and then Ork cuts Adar off just like right when he's about to tell us. A couple moments like that across the episode. We have that. We have a very notable, Who Are You? A halt.

And then no clarity to follows. I loved in this moment, too, Audar saying that he could tell Arundyre was there because he could smell him. It made me, you know, obviously these like supercharged elf senses, but it made me think back to Arundir in the premiere and his dearly departed watch partner who he told him that he smelled. like dead leaves and this can't feel good to be on the other end of that. Tough.

What do you smell like right now? Joe, I know we're going to talk about other speeches as we go, but just right here on this like first speech, this opening, opening note, kicking off the episode. Are you ready for game day after this? Like, are you feeling like you just listen to coach Taylor, you know, clear eyes, full hearts, create more door. Was this working for you? Or like Ted Lassow who's like, you know what?

believe and close the iron hand of the Uruk around the land. Yeah, thanks for putting in a fictional terms so I can understand. Yeah, I'm hyped and pumped up. I wish that if all sporting events started with a fun musical Uruk chant song, I'd maybe be, I'm watch more sports. So tell, like, spread the word. Meanwhile on a boat, we've already discussed Asildor's questionable move with the apple and the horse and him eating the apple.

It's fine to take a bite of your apple, then give it to your horse. But then you, sir, are done with the apple and it does not go back in your mouth. But that was what number one pony girl, Aseldor does with the apple. Absolutely deplorable. Just deplorable. I love animals. As you know. I do know.

I gasped aloud in horror. When he put the apple back in his mouth. Oh, my God. All right, Galadro and the Sildur on the deck. Tell me, like, walk us through this, like, what did this mean to you? First of all, just what a treat to see them interact in this way, period. This conversation between two characters who were deeply invested and not only in the side of the show, but in the canon at large. Very, very, very exciting.

And I loved the way that that excitement was palpable for both of them, too, because you have this awe and reverence emanating off of the seal door. the way that he responds to the revelation that Galadriel has been able to see land for an hour, he's like us booting up for every podcast, right? Oh my God, the magic. And the way that it clicked for her when she realized who he was, that he was Alendio's son, her relationship with this family, her desire to learn more about their history, more about the innermost workings and desires of their hearts,

the way that she asks, and Asseldor has walked off at this point, Alendio, about Isildor's mother, who comes up more than once in this episode. But also, the context and the setting for this conversation, the rising sun, heading east into this great new dawn and new adventure. There couldn't be a more fitting place for this exchange between the two of them. And I was really struck by, you know, he's kind of embarrassed when he has to reveal to her that he's a stable sweep. And she says, despise not the labor which humbles the heart.

Humility has saved entire kingdoms the proud of all but led to ruin. On the one hand, sage counsel. On the other. On the other. Heed your own counsel. Galadryl. What are you talking about Galadryl. Yeah.

Right? We're going to get a Galadriel mirror reference later in the episode, but look in the mirror, my babe, and talk to yourself about humility because if anyone needs a little humility lesson, it is our babe Galadriel, for sure. Ellen Deal arrives. He says the sunrise, sunset quote that started open this episode. Sunrise. Uh-huh. He's been catching the Numenorian production of Fiddler. And then on his way out of the scene just over the shoulder.

He gives her a she drowned. This was heart-wrenching, honestly. Yeah, we've had some references to his wife, Aseilder's mom, this watery grief. Like, it's sort of been hinted at, but now we know that she drowned. We don't know exactly how she drowned, but we know that she did. What did this make you think of when you thought about the dynamics of this family and the tension between father and son? You could feel the heaviness. You could feel the weight of this grief.

Here in this moment, the despair that is ever present. And then also the conversation later, as the smoke plume of Mount Doom is inching toward them, they're chatting about Barrick and pain and fear and what you can sense inside of yourself and the bonds that form across your life. And Alendia is whispering and soothing Barry. And the moment where Sosa was Ascomari learned that and realizes it's from his mother, that was such a tragic, tragic moment between father and son, these members of this family, who you could feel the way that the grief was a wedge between them until that point, rather than a tie. And that maybe in that moment it started to change and was going to be something that would

help them find their way toward each other. But the other thing that made me so, so sad on the ship, think about living. in a world and being a part of a culture. And we know that Alendiel takes that culture of Numenor seriously where everybody says all the time, the sea is always right. And if you lost somebody in that, like what would that feel like? I think that that idea of this death as a as a wedge and now a potential bond is really interesting. And I think it's especially interesting because Tolkien, as we've mentioned before, Tolkien often just forgets to mention female members of the family.

He'll just like... His Iron Fleet. Yeah, just kind of forgets that like moms need to exist in the line of kings or like whatever. So at least like, you know, another dead wife, dead mom trope, not the most necessarily invented thing, but at least like she means something. She exists in this world. Last thing we want to do before we leave this ship is read this email from Amy that I believe she wrote especially from Mallory Rubin, and it goes like this.

We have started referring to Allendiel as Asil Dilf, Dilf in our household. And I think we should start trending. Feel free to use the name on your podcast. Does it roll off the tongue? Ail Dilf. Yeah, sure. Why not? Alendil.

Sure does. Crazy Jesus. All right. Sure does. All right. I love it. All right. Thank you, Amy.

I'm Smit and Joe, as you know. I just, he needs comforting a price, and I hope he gets one. And not from a horse. All right. So moving on to part two, which I'm calling Operation Camouflage, the Trump voters. It starts with the Rondeer trying to destroy the power, the key, the health, whatever you want to call it. And this is just strong one ring vibes, right? Like he cannot destroy this piece of metal work that were given to understand was created by Sauron, right?

So it's like, you know, something that Sauron made that like the one ring cannot be destroyed by ordinary methods. And so that Arandir works very hard to hide it and definitely doesn't let Theo a loud child. follow him to the hiding place. Valerie, any notes? Thank you for mentioning this and thank you for asking. As you, a person who has received 500 text messages from me about this knows, I am frankly outraged by this. I found myself thinking about Survivor, as is my want,

a couple times in this episode. Once was when our girl, Bronwyn, couldn't get the Flint action exactly right to start the fire on time and the pitch wagon. And I was thinking, never find yourself in a position where you're in the fire making challenge at the end of a season of Survivor. Play a different game. Make sure you have a different strategy. You can't be in that spot.

Great note. Here, Rhonda reminded me of a contestant on Survivor who finds the immunity idol to ensure that no one else on the tribe knows, hides it. in his own bag where it is immediately found in his shelter. Like, what was this? Under the floorboard in the tavern, first of all, one, you just have to go further away. I'm sorry, you simply must. The whole battle plan, as we'll get to, hinges on loring the enemy force into this small,

fire-encircled ring. the women and children are hiding, they're sheltering out in what they label their keep, a nice little, like you're going to draw the force in there. You don't want them to get there, but you know there's a risk that they will if they breach. You can't have that thing waiting there.

You cannot. But also, you have to go further than two feet away from where you're currently standing when you're hiding the thing. Also, what about these elf ears and elfis and all of these super sharp senses we always keep talking about. Theo's nine feet tall. You can't tell he's fenced by this.

This is not a Rondeer's finest moment. This is not a great move from A Rondeer as is born out. This is actually not the part that made me, like, freak out. That happened to me later. I'll get to that. Bromondon gives another speech. We've heard many speeches from her. Rondere joins in with her.

We've heard a lot of speeches on this show. It's like very final season of Buffy. I will say for my money. Farazahn is still like the number one speech giver that we've seen so far. Brown puts Theo in the keep, which is very, as you mentioned, Aowen at Helms Deep or Sansa and Tyrion in the Winterfell crypt. God.

I still am not over the Winterfell crypts. I'm still not, this is not the podcast for that, but everybody taking shelter in the underground cavern full of dead bodies when the guy who raises the dead is coming for a fight will never cease to amaze. I'm sorry. What is everyone doing?

Doing. Just need everyone just like calm down and make your battle plan a little slower. Oh my God. A little slower. Wait, Joe, can I ask you a question actually? Yeah. Sorry, to rewind for a second here to the thwarted destruction of the health. The power.

and the obvious count to the ring, as you know it. And one thing that I was interested in as a comp to the hilt and the ring, especially because at the end of the episode, I wonder if this is what you're going to say you have some notes on, which is Arundyre who has hidden this thing and held it in his hands, not recognizing that he's holding an axe instead of the actual thing, not telling it's a different shape. Anyway, we'll get there when we get there.

Yeah. Is that it? I was going to shot. No one checked the burlap, not one. Astonishing stuff. Okay, I can't. I can't wait to talk about that. It was like hours.

And no one checked the burlap. Cannot wait to talk about that more. But that conversation that he has with Theo later is about how Theo needs to rid himself of it. And I raise that just because while no strength that they hold in their hands is capable of destroying this power, the hammer breaks, right? just as Gimley's axe is going to chatter when he tries to split the ring at Rivendale. Arundier is trying without hesitation to destroy this thing.

And there are many characters in this plotline at this point. Theo is actually distinct in this respect who do not feel themselves connected to this or drawn to it, pulled by it, exactly. And so like I was revisiting the passage in fellowship where Frodo is asking Gandoff, time of him. Why didn't anyone destroy it?

Why haven't we tried to destroy it? Let's go destroy it. And Gandoff says, try it. And I won't read the whole thing, but the beginning of it has always been really interesting to me. He weighed the ring in his hand, hesitating and forcing himself to remember all that Gandolph had told him. And then with an effort of will, he made of movement as if to cast it away.

But he found that he had put it back in his pocket. Yeah. That's always been such a crucial moment because the character is saying out loud, let's destroy it, but doesn't have the full mastery. Trixie. Trixie. The Powere. Maybe the Powere has to, like, bite you before and taste your blood before, like, you are enthralled to it, you know? I hope Waldrick has some neosporin because that was a lot of gaping, gushing wounds in this episode.

Can I just say that I just. believe that Waldrig does not believe in NeoSport. And he certainly has not been vaccinated. Okay. So I do love this moment, though, when Bronwyn is she sending Theo away, she comforts him. And she uses some very familiar words. Oh, yeah. And we've talked about on this very podcast, right? So he says, will you say to me the things that used to say to me when I was a child? And she says, in the end, this shadow is but a small and passing thing. There's light and beauty. There's light and high beauty forever beyond its reach, find the light and the shadow will not find you. This is almost word for word, pulled from the passage of Sam in Mordor when he sees the light of Arendale, the star that we

talked about when we talked about Arendale, and that passage reads, and we read this passage. So I felt very smug. I was like, we already did this. Let's do it again. All right. So Sam says, It says, there peeping among the cloud rack above a dark torhive in the mountain, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart as he looked up out of the forsaken land and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the shadow is only a small and passing thing. There was light and high beauty forever beyond its reach. His song in the tower had been defiance rather than hope, for then he was thinking of himself. Now, for a moment, his own fate and even his master ceased to trouble him. He crawled back into the brambles and laid himself by Frodo's side and putting away all fear, he cast himself into a deep, untroubled sleep. Love that passage. I have always loved it. And I continue to love the way that the writers just sort of cherry pick some of these phrases and put them in other character's mouth. I, yeah, that's all. I love it. It's absolutely beautiful. What a great Sam moment. Of course,

we get a version of that in the in the films as well. So that's a, that idea is very, very, very present with his, but in the end, it's only a passing thing. The shadow even darkness must pass two towers film line. This is a key idea right here. Very, very important. Don't let the shadow overwhelm you as we see. Glad you'll be literally swallowed in.

Ash. I like the idea of like Bronwyn sharing that with her son inside of their family. routinely though, like outside of these moments of cataclysm and supreme crisis, that that would be something that was just a part of their healing and nurturing ritual with each other. That was, I think, the part of that that I liked the most, like thinking that it wasn't just something she said for the first time here, actually. Tell me what you told me when I was younger, yeah. Orondier and Bronwyn have this very tender pre-battle moment, maybe not as tender as Mallory would

like, but, you know, they talk about planting seeds and he makes an offer to start a life with her. Anything you want to say about that? I mean, it's beautiful. It's pure. It connects to all of those rich and literary themes that we just talked about. And we've definitely been making, yeah, wants to plant a seed jokes to each other for 24 hours now. So I, okay, all jokes aside. Yeah.

Not everyone is as sex crazed as yours truly while watching these shows, and that's fine. But I actually, I was actually struck by how Chase this was. They finally kiss and the camera pulls back instead of zooming in. I thought that was a nod to, like, I think, again, I think they're just trying to mat. what came before with Tolkien and match the Jackson films. And so isn't it the case that when Rwin and Aragon kiss, that the camera pulls away and we get a wide shot of them kissing. We don't stay close with them, right?

And we do pan back to you have then the sun on the horizon and you get that thematic resonance too. But listen, if I'm being honest, I was screaming at my, screaming at my computer screen, you guys got time for a quickie before the battle starts. You don't know if you're going to live. Now is the time.

All right. Let's live a little. Like, we have a shared, one of our shared favorite episodes of Game of Thrones is a Night of the Seven Kingdoms for various reasons. This beautiful love letter to the characters,

this in many ways real actual goodbye and end note. One of the things that is so brilliant about that episode is how people open themselves to each other and are drawn to each other and seek that closeness with each other in that quiet,

in that moment of silence and stillness before the storm. And I did like, like, we shift then into that moment of real quiet as everybody is standing there and wait. But, yeah, I did, if I'm being honest, and again, mileage me very, that's fine. I found myself longing for a little bit more of the, let's all guzzle our horns full of ale together,

like torment and, you know, bah. Let's sit around the fire. Find ourselves in the hay, bales of hay, like our gangrene. Yeah, like our faves there. Yeah, share a bowl of stew together. Like, yeah, I agree with you. I was thinking of that episode very specifically in this moment. He uses a very particular word when he talks about starting this new life with

Bronwyn, he says, let's make a garden. And this is when we're going to take a moment to talk about gardens, gardeners in Tolkien. This is a huge buzzword for Tolkien, garden. We've talked before about, and there's some very obvious reasons. It's very like Edenic Garden of Eden, like that sort of thing. Like that is an obvious Tolkien association. And we talked before about his love of the land, though I think there's a very, a big difference between planting a tree, which you plant a tree, you might have to nurture

it for a little while, but hopefully if you plant it in the right spot, eventually nature will nurture that tree, right? The rain will fall, the sun will shine, that tree will grow. A garden is something you need to constantly tend. You are tending a garden. You are making something ordered and beautiful out of wild nature and something nourishing, you know, if it's a vegetable garden, et cetera. Okay. the reason the word garden stands out so clearly immediately is it makes us think of fairmir and aowin who are talking about a future together after the war um and this is when they're in the house of the healing um and he is proposing to her and he says yet i will wed with the white lady of rohan if it be her will and if she will then let us cross the river and in happier days let us dwell in fair athelian and there make a garden. All things will grow with joy there if the white lady comes.

And, you know, there's more to that. But, like, they don't make a garden. They build a kingdom. But the garden is metaphorical for, like, this beautiful life they're going to build together. So I remember that passage. But then I did the thing that you and I do sometimes where we just, like, search a word in Tolkien to see, like, how does it crop up and how does he use it? You know what I mean? Yeah.

So I was searching for the word garden. And it's actually not used a ton in the trilogy. But it's used a lot at the end. And so the word garden, I think, is associated a lot with the post-war rebuilding. What do we do after the war? So when Gandalf takes Aragorn after the war, when Gandalf takes Aragorn to find the sapling of Nimloth to plant the new white tree in Gondor, they have a very like Simba, Mufasa moment and stand over Aragorn's kingdom and look out at what it looks like. And the text reads, and they saw the towers of the city far below them like white pencils touched by sunlight, and all the veil of Andouin was like a garden, and the mountain of shadow were veiled in golden mist. Or if you go over to like Saramon's land being rebuilt by the ends, it reads, and the land within was made into a garden filled with orchards and trees and a stream ran through it. What's really interesting, and then after the scouring of the Shire, when they rebuild the Shire,

the fallen hobbits were laid together at a grave on the hillside where later a great stone was set up with a garden about it. So it's this very like post-war rebuilding idea. Something is so interesting is that I love to talk about is Sam's vision when he takes the ring and what Sam views as his vision of having the ring. Do you want to read any of this? I love when you read Tolkien to me. Samwise the Strong, hero of the age, striding with a flaming sword across the darkened land, an armies flocking to his call as he marched to the overthrow of Barador. And then all the clouds rolled away and the white sun shone.

And at his command, the veil of Gorgoroth became a garden of flowers and trees and brought forth fruit. He had only to put on the ring and claim it for his own. and all this could be he knew in the core of his heart that he was not large enough to bear such a burden even if such visions were not a mere cheat to betray him the one small garden of a free gardener was all his need and do not a garden swollen to a realm his own hands to use not the hands of others to command i love that so good there's that the hands idea again too yeah let us talk about in to Yeah. Small hands. So this idea that like, I mean, it's always so like, oh, Sam just sees a garden. But I love that idea that like the even the notion of a garden could be, could be turned into something. And we're going to talk about this later, actually. But even the notion of like trying to heal and turn and make order out of something can be turned dark. If a subcreator, we talked a lot about these Tolkien subcreators, the subcreator tries to become the, capital C creator, right? So it's just sort of tend your own guard, that like Voltaire idea of tend your own garden, do that. Don't try to make a world, make your little garden. And that, that is the future. The notion of the garden, the last thing I want to say about this with a quote

from Tolkien himself is associated with healing. We're going to talk about healing later. But when they go into Gondor and there's like the many circles as you pass up through the city of Gondor, many rings of Gondor, the house. House of Healing in that section, in the sixth circle, nighed to its southward wall, and about them was a garden and a greensward with trees, the only such place in the city. So this idea that the healers are associated with the gardeners, and that garden and healing are, it's about healing the land post-war, making a garden. All of that is sort of together.

And using the nature and the bloom of your garden to heal yourself and other people too. And even that first exchange of the seeds, that connects to the fact that Bronwyn is a healer. So there's that tie there. And Arrondir is a grower. So it's like the gardener and the healer are like who like, and I think it's like it didn't occur to me until this episode. The healer is so important. We'll talk about that later. But like the, the fact that Jady and Patrick and their other writers put the gardener, because Arondir says I was a grower before the war, the gardener, the romance of this show is between the gardener and and the healer. That's just talking through and through, you know.

I love to like, you know, we've quoted the Bilbo line from the, from fellowship many times, but where our hearts truly lies in peace and quiet and good till earth, that central pursuit of life in the shire and how the mischief that we see our hobbits getting up to involve stealing crops from farmer maggot

and, you know, that first fall cracking a carrot. But, but, But I love it because if you then zoom forward ahead to the end, like what are the things that Frodo is talking about and thinking about in order to reveal at the end that he has lost entirely that sense of self and home? He can't remember the feel of grass. And that just reinforces like how central that natural world is to what home and happiness means for these characters.

It's really funny when I go about like when I put, you know, these notes together for this podcast that I love to do with you every week. I'm trying to find like a Thielkenian like sort of theme or motif or whatever that we can dig into. And I definitely thought given that this is a battle episode, I was like, okay, I guess Tolkien in War, I guess was sort of going to be my prompt. But then I like got distracted down this path of talking about gardens and later we'll talk about healing. And I was like kind of love that gardens and healing are like the the, the, the infarctic. for us in this battle episode. But I think that's Tolkien, like, because, again, we know that Tolkien's not trying to do allegory, but there's so much of that post-war between the war idea of gardens and England. Gardens and England have been a long time, interesting part of their

culture and tradition. And, you know, we think of some of the, like, key pieces of literature that Tolkien would have absorbed leading up to writing, first, The Hobbit, and the and Lord of the Rings. And Alice in Wonderland, Alice is trying to get to this secret, this walled garden. That's her mission. She wants to get to this beautiful, delightful garden that she sees. The secret garden, of course, that beautiful book written in 1911, like there's the healing properties, the magical healing properties of tending and building and growing a garden.

And so, again, that's like Garden of Eden language, but it was this really, the trend, the popularity of gardens post-World War I between the wars, I have to think has to be related somehow to going off and fighting and seeing the earth dug up into these ugly trenches where there's just like nothing but like trenches and death and coming back and like taking that notion of digging into the earth and making it to like create and grow something really beautiful. The contrast to that decay. And I think that your point from a few minutes ago about the distinction between. a tree and a garden is really, really smart and very astute. I think it's also true that even the

trees then, which are still a form of that planting, and we see the moment where I'm on Darren Bronwyn put their hand on the bark. The trees then, they tell us something about the state of the land and the state of an entire people, the decay and the blight on the tree in Linden, or science importance, our favorite, what we've heard from Muriel, a couple times already in the show, the faithful believe that when the petals of the white tree fall, it is no idle thing,

the very tears of the Valar themselves. So the connection always between the land and the sign of what is to come. I love that. I love it. All right. So that's gardens.

Who knew? I mean, the writers of the show knew and they definitely knew when they had a Rondier suggest they make a garden. It's beautiful. Are you a gardener? I know you have a plum tree

and I know you make a sick plum barbecue. you sauce for your grill. It like comes and goes my gardening technique. I've got some Chinese lantern plants that are growing pretty well. My sister's a killer gardener and I just, I lack the patience. Morgan. How about you? Yeah, Morgan. Yeah. How about you? I love the natural world and I love plant life and trees, but I am not personally adept at gardening. My stepmom loves to garden. My stepmom loves to garden and my dad loves to garden. And every time I go back to visit them, I always like to see what new thing they've planted. But yeah, I enjoy watching other people's. I would love to be a gardener. I don't know why I can't do it. But like there's just something really beautiful about it's almost spiritual, I think, just like taking that time. Should we open a bookshop and the bookshop has a garden and also a coffee bar? Yes. I feel like we'd be checking off all the passions there. And we do movie nights. Right. Perfect. Great. Every now and then there's a musical. Well, you guys come and buy books if we open up a bookstore because it's a very bad business to get into, but it's all Mallory and I want to do.

Let us know it. Yeah. Havas and Dragon. Maybe we'll call our bookstore Havas and Dragons. House of our House of Reeds. House of Bar. Yeah. Yeah. Let's do it.

All right. Back to the show. So they do battle. As you mentioned, Broadwin's flint does not work in a moment that really stressed me out. And they win, but then they're horrified to find that many of the orcs they were fighting were actually Southlanders. I don't know what they thought was going to happen when half of their camp defected to the orcs. Same. Okay.

Okay. Not to be like a cold-hearted monster. I was kind of puzzled by this. Like, not only did those people make their choice. Now, does that mean you want to murder your neighbor? lifelong companions, neighbors, friends? No, probably not. Okay.

But they came and attacked you. Now, I guess there's the line about how they had to, like, pay their due, so maybe they didn't want to be part of the attacking first wave dupe force. But, uh, I don't know. Was it such a loss? I think the show is trying to send us a message about what happens when we divide. We end up fighting our neighbors, our loved ones, etc. I just, I was with you.

Symbolically, I appreciated it. Yeah, I was just sort of like, well, that's what I assumed was going to happen when they marched off to follow Sauron. So I don't know. I found the bit with the gushing workblood on a Rondeur's face, just tough to watch. It was getting in his mouth and it was black and like viscous and I was having a real, real tough time with it. And then the orcs emerge from the tree line and it's raining arrows and Bronwyn gets hit, seriously. A lot of people taking arrows and there is one brief, go-tend to him. first, but it comes from Bronwyn.

Pretty much everyone else is only focused on Bronwyn. It's just really wild. Talk about gushing blood. Oh my God. They pulled the arrow out of that wound. I was thinking back to our earlier episode where we slightly disagreed on whether the warg gut gnawing was too violent or not violent enough. Yeah.

There was definitely more blood here. Also just like the swords just going into the bellies of villagers in the standoff in the tavern. It was a tough watch. My question is they're in the tavern, right? Is there not alcohol of some kind somewhere in the tavern that we can use to either give Bronwyn to drink or pour onto her wound to clean it out? Just to stick to bite. Maybe we're meant to assume that all of the sustenance commestable. anything that you could eat or drink at all had been taken up and had prior retrieval mission.

Rowan? As I say that, I don't think that can be correct because Rowan bounced before Theo came out of the tavern. And Theo then had to escape after hiding in a well. Everything I know about cleaning out a wound, I learned from the seminal film Game Night. And then even in that film, they used an oaky chardonnay to clean out the bullet wound. Well, here they're using dirty hands to rub blood back into the wind, but mixed with the seeds, Joe. So that was lovely. It's fine.

All right. Plants in a garden right inside of you, you know? Okay. Beautiful. And then the cauterization. A lot of caudorization in our IP lately. Yeah. Yeah.

A lot of cauter sprues. Mr. Orwell loves cauterizing wounds. So I hope Mr. Orwell was proud. Okay, quick pause. Look to the dawn. The Newmanorians are coming back to the tavern where Bronwyn is no doubt getting a staff infection. And Adar gets the power from Theo by threatening Bronwyn. Blah, blah.

And he passes the power off to Waldrig. but no one notices, despite the fact that I was literally screaming at my television for someone, an elf, a man, a Niminorian, a Silder's horse, someone to check that bundle of burlap. Nobody checked. It's tough. Like, there's a lot going on. Everyone's distracted. Sure.

Again, I have the most notes here specifically for Arundere because he has held this in his hands. He has tried to destroy it. He has also held the burlack sap, sack wrapped version of it and hidden it under a floorboard and plain sight of all. So he knows what this feels like in his hand. I am bottled by this. We're about to get to the part that we really like. So I think this part where Mallory and I take shots at the battle plan is almost over. All right.

Battle part four. Yeah. Tonight the role that we're here and will be played by Numeron. right here come look to the dawn here come the horse there many helms deep comps yes this was a this was a fun the cavalry arrives i think this is very cool and this is when i start loving the episode because there's a bunch of horse stuff that happens and it is very cool and most of it looks practical like you definitely have horse and it reminds us of like watching like do you remember the making of the spoils of war episode of game of thrones we watched those horse stuntmen like who played

the Dothraki, like, get up on top of their saddles, and I started screaming. We're seeing stuff like this. Galadryl does this insane, like, back bend move off the horse. And again, it doesn't look, I mean, it might be CGI, but it looks like a stunt to me, like, incredible. That was wild. Not only to evade the oncoming arrow, but then to slice from balls to brains as they'd stay over on Game of Thrones.

That was amazing. They do the Numenorians do this like chain swoop move to like knock down a bunch of orcs all at once. Volontiel rolls off his horse loses his helmet in a very convenient way that lets us look at his beautiful hair as he fights more orcs. I loved all of this. This is my last nip-pick question. I do not understand the sequence where Acile Dor is all like stressed out up on the hill and like in the queen's guard with Muriel. And she's like, go and tells him to go down in battle. Like, dude, it feels like something was cut, where Allendiel's like, you have to stay here with the queen and leaves.

And then he sees his dad in trouble. And Muriel's like, go to him. But they cut all of that context. So it's just, I didn't understand it. Alendio's majorly in trouble. Really cool horse stun as a Sealedor, like, jumps over a bunch of people to get him. Again, I just thought all his horse stuff was great. And then who saves your best friend Alendale?

It's not a Seeldoor. Who does it? Mallory. Hal Brand, our guy Hal, there with a timely thrust. Someone had a timely thrust in the episode. Sorry. Oh, boy.

Wow. I, yeah, that Isildor jump was great, but also just the fact that he wanted to try to reach his father and save him. That was a nice little moment. And I, I want to try to remember to return to this moment in, in Ring, too.

I'll remind you, I promise. All right, Arrondi points out at our two Galadriel, and she gives Chase, and I just love, this is like one of many, many moments we've had where soldiers just look worshipfully at Galadriel. It is very healing to me in a post like online toxic Mary Sue conversation to have so many men just stare wondrously at Galadryl as she's like Katniz and Sailor Moon and Zia, Tina Warrior Princess all roll into one. or on your nose exactly who she is. I loved this. I thought it was wonderful. It's great. Commander of the Northern Armies.

Galadriel, the look on Theo's face. Our guy has, he's smitten. Heart eyes. Heart eyes. Who is that? That was great. Speaking of hard eyes, Halbrand sees Galadriel going off into the woods and he goes after her.

And I'm sorry, that was extremely hot. Like, ladies. get you a fellow who in the heat of battle is going to follow you off on the side quest. That's what I have to say about that. And then, again, I keep heaping praise. I just feel, I feel bad. I feel like we were really knocking at the episode for a while, but this is all true enthusiasm. The horse race in the forest, like, I don't even know how they did that without the cameraman

getting absolutely whipped to death by branches. Like, how did they, it looked, it reminds us of Arwen's flight to the Ford through the forest. And again, it's just like, it's practical, a lot of it. I'm not claiming it's all. But like a lot of it is practical and you could tell and absolutely fantastic. Galadryl whisper something to her horse to power it up goes faster. So we've got Galadryl Adar and Halbran converge in the woods. Then what happens, Mallory Rubin?

We have a intense exchange. Hal Brand has arrived from the other direction, nifty trick, and knocks Adar off his horse, taps him through the hand, pins him with his spear. And we get an incredibly intense, you remember me, as the opening note of this exchange,

the expression, and almost every line of this exchange and the ensuing Galadriel Osses, our conversation are like worth parsing in full. These were the mediest parts of the episode. The look on Hal Brown's face here. The rage, but also the tears in his eyes? This was intriguing.

And what is his response? No. And Halberan taking that in? You don't even remember me? My God. And Galadriel arrives in. stops him, pulls him back, which he will then later do to her and they will thank each other for respectively preventing the other from slaying Adar, but Galadriel says we need them, right?

She's got to go into full, slightly terrifying interrogation mode, which we'll get to momentarily. Troubling. But I thought that one of the most disturbing moments of the episode in a good way, like a fun way to watch in a really interesting way in terms of what the history might be, but also what the future might hold was how Brown's initial response is, you don't know what he did. And again, the rage,

this like almost ferocity on display here, but this despair too. Yeah. And Adder's response, did I cause someone you love pain? A woman? Perhaps a child?

I mean, this was haunting. Wow, your Adder impression is just taught too. I absolutely love it. Joseph Mall is great in this episode, by the way. A child? A child? Oruk. Yeah, Galadriel stops him by saying,

one cannot satisfy thirst by drinking sea water, which is something she said to him last week when they were talking about vengeance. So is this about vengeance, he asked her, and she said, one cannot satisfy thirst by drinking sea water. She's like, it worked last week. It's going to work again. So she's like, waste not want not.

Let's use the same line. Great stuff. After the battle, Mallory. Yeah. Nobody is celebrating the fact that they're still alive in the way that you would like them to, right? I just think there's not going to be sex on this show. That's what I'll just say.

I think no one's going to have sex in the show because they don't feel like it's something Tolkien would want. I think this is going to be a sex-free show. And I think smooches and burning glances might be the best we get. I could be wrong. There's a, the moment that Galadriel and Hal Brown share on that log, which comes after the interrogation scene. Oh, yeah. When she says, I felt it too. White charged.

And then, yeah, they're interrupted cruelly by the summons from Muriel. Should we talk about this interrogation? Because these, these moments from Galadriel here, I mean, not only the, the, the clues. that there are to parse from Adar, but what we see on display from Galadriel here is disturbing. I think it's really interesting. So we get some answers, I suppose, about Adar. There have been a lot of theories about Adar and who he is. A really popular theory for a very long time was that Adir was somehow a twisted version of Galadriel's dead brother Finrod.

I think we can safely conclude that that's not the case because I believe it would have come up in this episode. A really popular theory was that this was perhaps an elf called Maglin in the Simarillion. Maglin is captured by Morgoth, gives up the location of Gondolin, is tortured, is tormented, and then released back, but people know what he's did, and then he's thrown off a wall to his death. But what I think is really interesting, I don't believe they have the rights to the word, the name Maglin. It's not in the Lord of the Rings or the appendices. So they cannot call this character Maglan. He's been called Adar, which is father. But what is interesting is she calls, so she says Moriendor.

We don't have close captioning. If you watch this episode, you know how she spelled this. We don't. But I believe she says, you know, children of the shadow, I think, right, or the darkness. Sons of the darkness, whatever. Made into a new and ruined form of life, you are one of them, are you not? Moriondor, the sons of the dark. Moriondor.

I-O-N with a little carrot over the O is sun. And then that's just sun shoved in the middle of Mordor. That's just Moriandor, sun in the middle of Mordor. And what's interesting about Eon is that that was the first name given to Maglin was this elf, this elf, this fallen elf from the Simerlian simply means sun. So the idea that they can't call this elf Maglan, but she, She calls him Moriandor, has the word sun, his original name, sort of shoved in the middle of the word Mordor is interesting.

And then at one point, Maglan gives the name Lomione, which means child of the twilight. So this idea, son of darkness, it all is very, like, nodding towards something they're not legally allowed to use. A lot of use. But basically, this is an elf, taking my morgoth, torture twisted, and then the first orcs, and then Adar says he prefers the word. Uruk. Carlos, can you play as a supercut of Joseph Moll saying the word Uruk, please?

Uruk. Uruk. We prefer Uruk. You cannot believe on Ourok. Could do that. Uruk. Incredible. That last one is particularly exceptional.

Oruk. What do you want to say about what? what Galadriel says here. So I'm interested in what we learned from both of them, like both sides of the exchange. But I just thought, and he calls her out on this directly. We'll hit the Galadriel part of it, and then we'll come back to what we see as he's talking

and revealing some of this history, which felt pretty deliberately placed there for our consideration. One of the first things she says is Perhaps we should bring our prisoners into the sunlight. Like, let's just kill them all. Throw out a little torture threat there. Okay, totally fine. I didn't intend the Geneva Convention, so I don't really care.

I thought what she said at the end was pretty disturbing. She says, no, your kind was a mistake, made in a mockery. And even if it takes me all of this age, I vow to eradicate every last one of you. But you shall be kept alive so that one day before I drive my dagger into your poisoned heart, I will whisper in your biker dear that all your offspring are dead and the scourge of your kind ends with you. This made me think of like Circey tormenting Scepda Unella, who, you know, I'm not saying I'm like, Team Adder and team ork. To be clear, that's not what I'm saying.

But as Adar observes rightly, yeah, when do you become the thing that you hate? And Galadri herself spoke this idea, voiced this to Halbrand. It was one of their real points of moments of a breakthrough with each other last episode. And here Adar says to her,

it would seem I'm not the only elf who has been transformed by darkness. perhaps your search for more god's successor should have ended in your own mirror. First of all, bars. Do you see how to come back? That one hurts. But flipping that idea, as we've talked about across the season, we love that line. Sometimes you cannot know until you touch the darkness.

What happens when you then fall in, right? And the idea of the reflection and that reflective surface has also been so present. when does the thing that you think you're attempting to detect absorb you in full? And, you know, we have clarity about Galadriel's overall arc, but obviously a lot to fill in in between. And I think it was important last week to hear the character herself could confront this idea. I think that's essential. But this was a pretty harrowing moment for her. What did you make of him calling her out on this hypocrisy? No, I thought it was really incredible, and especially when, like, the bid he's making is we are all God's children, right?

Like, my children deserve, you know, we are all creations of the one master of the secret fire, you know, she's a Louvatar, same as you, as worthy of the breath of life, just as worthy of a home. Soon this land will be ours, then you will understand, right? So, like, he's like, from my point of view, I'm just trying to create a world in which that my children don't have to cower from the sun, you know. And, yeah, the first thing that kind of loosens his lips and gets him talking at all after her sunlight line is that instinct and desire to protect. Protect. The use of mirror, of course, like, has to ping for us because the mirror of Galadriel is that

that chapter in fellowship that we have talked about over and over and over. again. So the use of the word mirror is not accidental here. Let's talk about what Adar says. After Margot's defeat, the one you call Sauron devoted himself to healing, Middle Earth, bringing its ruined lands together in perfect order to craft the power, not off the fleeting world. He buried as many as he could, following far north, But try. As you mind, something was missing. The rest of the quote, we could be here all day because Joseph Maul likes to take long pauses between his words.

But the last of the... He's like me doing a pod. It's like, what about 30 seconds between every word? He says, a shadow of dark knowledge that kept itself hidden even from him. No matter how much blood he spilled in his pursuit for my part, I sacrificed enough of my children for his aspirations. I split him open. I killed Sauron. Mallory, what do you want to say about what we see

when he's talking about the shadow of dark knowledge that kept itself hidden? So, you know, a lot of really interesting language and word choice and revelations in that moment and that sequence and then also a lot of visual pairings as we flash back to that fortress where Galadriel's army rebelled against her at last, where they did put up their swords

and said, we are done with this. The slab where she identified the sigil that proved to be a map. This idea of the twisted, dark sorcery when they saw this warped shape melted into the stone wall where that poor, innocent snow troll who's just gone about his day, died for no reason. That stretch. They've got a snow troll.

The unseen world. the spirit realm, this magical realm, the wreath world, all of that. That's just cool to hear. And very interesting. This idea of secret fire makes us think of Gandalf, of course, facing off with the Balrog in fellowship. You cannot pass, he said. The orc stood still and the dead silence fell.

I am a servant of the secret fire. Weilder of the flame of anore. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you. Flame of a doon. Flame of oon. Go back to the shadow. You cannot pass.

Do we see a ballerog at the 48-ish minute mark of this episode? That might be a different timestamp on the live episode than it is on our screener. We see what I would describe as a horned skull. Yeah. Horton something. A statue or etched into the wall. And it's in this part where there's this discussion of a shadow of dark knowledge, something missing, something hidden that I think could tie into whether it's goth-mog, Morgoth's

lieutenant, or the magical ties of the ballerog across the story, as you've described before, that might be worth considering. And of course then it makes me think of how last episode we heard and saw a Balrog surface when Elrond was recounting this song to Gil Gallid in the Ythria reveal. And there's also the shape where what ends up being the keyhole back in the tower, there's also what appears to be kind of like tower like above the same. the same horn above the key, yes, above the hilt, the power of that shape. So is this a bell rock? What do you think? That's really interesting. That hadn't occurred to me when I

I was like, I definitely, I was like, Mephisto? No, I was I was like, what? I mean, it just looked, I was like, oh, that looks vaguely creepy and satanic, but I didn't think, of course, that there is a horned creature associated with a secret power. That's really interesting. I need to think about that, but I love that theory. This isn't even Theory Corner, but you're just observing carvings and horns. Observation Corner. I want to talk about, okay, so this might seem like, you know, we talked last week about

the myth real origin story and how that felt a little like lore breaking to people. And so when people are watching this episode and you hear that Sauron devoted himself to healing Middle earth, bringing its ruined land together in perfect order. Does that sound like Sauron to you? This is when we're going to take a pause and talk about healing. All right. We got an email from Kate talking about Tolkien's letters and this description of Sauron that's in Tolkien's letters.

And it reads like this. He repents in fear when the first enemy is utterly defeated. That's Morgoth. But in the end does not. do as was commanded, return to the judgment of the gods. He lingers in Middle Earth very slowly, beginning with fair motives.

The reorganizing and rehabilitation of the ruin of Middle Earth, neglected by the gods. He becomes a reincarnation of evil and a thing lusting for complete, Bauer. Sauron was, of course, not evil in origin. He was a spirit corrupted by the prime dark lord, the prime sub-creative rebel, Morgoth.

He was given an opportunity of repentance when Morgoth was overcome, but could not face the humiliation of recantation and suing for pardon, and so his temporary turn to good and benevolence ended in a greater relapse until he became the main representative of evil later ages. But was not indeed holy evil, not unless all reformers who want to hurry up with reconstruction and reorganization are holy evil, even before the pride and the lust to exert their will eat them up. The healing of the desolate lands. So this, that's, that's a very, that's a very first drop in a bucket of healing we'd talk about. But there is this idea that Tolkien had that post the fall of Morgoth, Sauron's like, I can get this place ship shape. I will organize everything.

Everything will be great. And then he just went a little, just a little too far, I'd say, Mallory in his attempt to do that. It's like Anakin, you know, one day too many at the opera with Palpatine. It happens. So in his devotion to healing Middle Earth, he delves too greedily and too deep for power for control and awakens this evil.

That's very bell-groggy. Very interesting, Mallory. Okay. Let's talk about healing and Tolkien elsewhere, okay? Because healing is associated with, leading, which I think is really interesting. We already talked about Aowen. Aowen and Faramir meet in the House of Healing, and Aowen goes in as a warrior, but comes out wanting to be a healer. And this idea of being a healer is somehow exalted above being a warrior. There's a part of my

feminist heart that never really loved this when she's like, I'll be a shield maiden no longer. I shall be a healer. And I'm like, I like that you were a shield maiden. It was very cool. but this idea of healing is so honored and vaulted in Tolkien that it is a step up. Elrond, the leader of Rivendale, is the only one who can heal Frodo. Frodo goes there's twice to be healed. It has to be Elron to do it. Bronwyn is the healer of her town. She's also the leader of her town when push comes to shove here.

We got a reluctant leader moment. Joe. A hundred percent. Between Mary Ellen Bronwyn. That was fun. 100% we did. I was thinking of you. Healing is like an art of peace.

It's what Gondor was best at at its height. Gandalf goes and heals Theoden when they go to Rohan. Errigorn, this is the big one. Erdogan King, after the war, goes in the house of healing and heals everyone. Because there's this constant refrain that the hands of the king are healing hands. This is the description of Erragorn. Tall as a sea kings of old, he stood above all that were near ancient of days he seemed, and yet in the flower of manhood, and wisdom sat upon his brow, and strength and healing were in his hands, and a light was about him, and then Faramere cried, behold, the king. This idea of the healing hands, Gandalf says it too.

He says that, thus spake Ayoreh, wise woman of Gondor, the hands of the king are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known. So it's not just he's the rifle king so he can heal. He has healing hands. But like this is how we shall know him, not by a mythical sword even, or by a crown that was lost or anything like that. It's by the healing of his hands. Or a pouch around his neck that that Bronwyn conveniently looks directly at. Right. But so this idea that like to be the proper leader is to be a healer.

And so this idea that Sauron fancied himself the proper leader of the land, but he didn't have the healing hands and was seeking that power. That's what it seems like to me. Like, whatever it is, whatever his version of healing is, he couldn't do it because he did not have that power given to him from the land that the line of kings of Gondor naturally and magically have. what do you think of this healing notion? I love this. This is amazing and it connects, as you said earlier, to that idea of the garden and of tending and nurturing

and helping to sustain and further life. I was thinking back to the premiere, the double premiere, and one of our earliest exchanges between Orandir and Bronwyn, who obviously are very central to this episode, when she asks him if elves have healers, if there are healers among the elves,

he says we call them artifices, most wounds to our bodies heal of their own accord. So it is their labor instead to render hidden truths as works of beauty, for beauty has great power to heal the soul. And I like that too, because of the different nature of life and existence and health and healing and wellness

for various different factions in the story, the idea that what heals you might vary and differ depending on what you need, I think is like really, really lovely. And the nature of your wound, because of course, like the most famous wound in the Lord of the Rings is Frodo's wound that will not heal. We talked about this a lot before. I'm wounded, he answers, wounded and it will never really heal. And when Arwin makes her decision to stay and not go to the unying lands, she tells Frodo

that essentially that he can go and he can go. her place. And she says, if your hurts grieve you still and the memory of your burden is heavy, then you may pass into the West until all your wounds and weariness are healed. So one has to hope that Frodo, when he saw that far green country, that unhealable wound was finally healed for him. Yeah. So I just, I like this idea that like this is, this is how you shall know your leader by their healing skills. Again, it's that post-war reconstruction, but also that really interesting. thing in Kate's letter about like it goes to Tolkien's disdain for industry. If you look to reconstruct and rebuild and instead of planting a lovely garden, you build a massive polluting

factory or something like that. Like that's not the right way to do it according to Tolkien's order of the world. But what was Aragorn's tax policy? But what was Aragorn's tax policy? Lastly, we want to say in this, like, Adar Galadriel interrogation scene is very interesting when Halberin comes in to stop her. She leaves. And Adar goes, who are you? Right? And Halbrin doesn't answer, but it's... And Halbran turned around and channelled Theodin and said, who am I gambling?

No, kidding. He didn't. He didn't turn out. He just stopped. Who are you? Oh, God. All right. And then we get this like insanely charged, as you said, interaction between Galadriel and Halbrin.

Carlos, can you play this for us, please? Be free of it. I never believed I could be until today. Fighting at your side, I felt just hold on to that feeling. Keep it with me always. Find it to my very being. Then I... Kiss.

Oh, God. Oh, God. We're going to talk about that more in ring two. Sure are, Joe. Boy, are we? We're going to talk about that more in ring. A doo. All right, Halbrain gets named the king that was promised.

Hail, hail, hail, says everyone. No qualifications needed. No healing test required. He also says yes pretty quickly here, given all of his prior... Hesitancy. Yeah. Yep. That's me.

Oh, God. You already mentioned this conversation. You mean, Arondere and Theo, when, again, they do not look inside the burlap and they talk about the feeling of the power. Baudrick takes the power. And he sets off Mount Doom. Joe, I so rarely, you're the one who's like, nine, you have like a 900 batting average on theories and mine's like 125. I'm below the Mendoza line. I was so proud of myself.

I said maybe it's a key the turn that it activates Mount Doom. And it was. I literally paused my screener. This is so embarrassing. And I went to the other room and I was like, Adam, I got one right. I'm so proud of you. It's so rare. It's so rare.

The actual look of it, because we got to see the power in full. And it has like the teeth, the teeth and the prongs that a key would have. It was amazing to see that. Again, Waldrick just gushed. from his arm wound standing there all alone, wild stuff, this keyhole perfectly intact despite the tower crumbling around it. The moment when we realized, I mean, I thought this was really thrilling to watch, the activation of Mount Doom and the surge of the darkness, the smoke, the shadow,

where the shadow lie, mm-hmm, pushing toward everyone. The moment where we realized what the tunnels were actually for, that was cool. That was cool. The water surging and coursing through this land. I was thinking about this a few minutes ago when you made that point about digging up the land in the trenches. Like, that's what these were. These were trenches for the force of that water to make its way into the volcano and activate it. The other thing is, and I might have this completely backwards, but because everything I know about World War I in trench warfare I know from movies.

But I feel like they would fight at night and not during the day under the cover. No, I might have that backwards. But I don't know. That whole like wait till the dawn sort of thing feels very like, I don't know. That's a half-form thought. Hobbeson dragons is Gmail.com if you know things about trench warfare that I don't, which is everyone. So last shot we get, like the last image, right, is glad you're getting swallowed in smoke and fire. A direct contrast.

direct contrast to the light that promised to surround her at the end of episode one. And we're done. And oh my God, two more episodes to go. Joanna, I have a question for you about this, about the plan and Adder's pursuit of the power of the key, the tunnels, the activation of Mount Doom, all of it. When they went to the... The Hall of Lore or the Hall of Law around these parts, we heard from Galadjol. It speaks not only of a place, this thing that they had unearthed here, but a plan, a plan by which to create a realm of their own where evil would not only endure but thrive, a plan to be enacted in the event of Morgoth's defeat by his successor. So this plan to create Mordor is the plan of Morgoth's successor.

I have taken that to mean it is Sauron's plan. So we learn here that Adar rebelled against Sauron. Maybe. Has he stole? Well, that's what I'm asking you. Has he stolen Saran's make Mordor plan? Or is there something else going on here in terms of the... Or was this Adar's plan?

Because someone pointed out to me that, like, in the black... She's reading black speech on that scrap of parchment that they dug out of somewhere in the Hall of Law. It's black speech. It's interesting that Galadjo can read it. But I believe the word saron is nowhere there. So again, it's Galadriel making the assumption that Morgas successor must be Sauron here. But what if it's Adar, who has fashioned himself Morgas successor?

So it's either that Galadriel assumed this was Sauron's plan when actually it was Adar's plan or your earlier proposition Adar has just co-opted Sauron's plan as his own. Because the fact that Adar said, for my part, I'd sacrificed off of my children. for his aspirations. I split him open and I killed Sauron. That did imply to me that Sauron had still been operating in that position of successor and that he then rebelled against him. I agree with that reading. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. All right. All right. Flossum and Jessum, I do not have much in the Easter egg section here. The only thing I could think of is a Seildor saying he liked the mountains because I don't think it's about, like that's where he's going to build Gondor. It's in the mountains that are right there.

Didn't seem like he meant it when he said he liked the mountains. He was trying to find something nice because he's like, this place is real dirty. And then you and I both, we didn't mention this earlier, but you and I both thought of George R. Martin when Volandil was saying that Galadro was going to form a group to go into the mountains to kill orcs. And George R. Martin has this really famous line where he's like, how far does Erragon go with this orc eradication? Does he kill the little orc babies in their cradles? And I would say Galadryl is super ready to kill the Lord babies in the cradles.

She's like they're a mockery. They've got to go. This episode is brought to by Paramount Plus. Beth and Rip are back in a new series, Dutton Ranch. Kelly Riley and Cole has a return. And this time they're taking on Texas. As Beth and Rip build a future together,

peace will have to wait as they face corruption, danger, and a ruthless rival ranch, willing to protect its secrets at all costs. Legacy is a beautiful thing, but only if it survives. Dutton Ranch starring Colehauser Kelly Riley, Annette Benning and Ed Harris,

now streaming on Paramount Plus. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks,

followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks, If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Tramphia, proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine.

Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramfaya today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more, or visit Tramphiatoradio.com. This episode is brought to you by Sweet Green. The day doesn't ask for permission. Lunch window? Gone before you saw it coming. You deserve a break that actually satisfies.

Sweet Green's new wraps have got you. Real ingredients? Zero shortcuts. Everything you love in one hand. Think green goddess chicken. garlic aoli, crumbled bacon, corn salsa, 40 grams of protein. Made to keep up with whatever comes next. New sweetgreen wraps hit different.

Order now at order.com. Ring 2. Yeah. A conspiracy unmasked. Our weekly, who's that guy, best guesses and thoughts, etc. Let's start with all your Allendial stuff that you wanted to, I mean, first I'm going to start by saying the word bind. Halbrin said he wanted to bind Galadriel to him, but we'll go back to that.

Allendial stuff. So what's the allendial sort of mom-wife conversation stuff that you want to talk about and ring to? So, okay, there were just a couple, and this is like probably would have been fine for Ring 1, but just to be safe. If Al-Brand is Sauron, which he is, as we believe strongly and with each passing work more fervently than we did the week prior that he is, that's just a really rich moment where the seal door is riding to try to save. his father and Hal Brand Sauron saves him instead, given the future that awaits those three together. And the last alliance and Alendale's death and Aseldor reaching up with his father's broken blade to cut off the one ring and then his future

with that one ring. That was just, that was just, uh, I got excited. Now again, I'm having a hard time watching the show not thinking of Hal Branda Sauron, actually. Like I will have an alternative. Like, there are plenty of people. who do not like this theory.

So I just want to let you guys know we have, I included an alternative theory in the ring two this week just so you guys who hate Hal Brown and Sauron theory have something to talk about. I think this episode also works very well for the Witch King theory for Halbrand very well. So I'm still in one of those two camps. Like a happy life as a king, I'm not seeing it.

But just this will get us into the key Halberan. and Galadriel bind moment. Olendale also talks about, this is a little bit different, but I was just interested. This is when they're talking about the horse and barrack being able to sense emotions. When a horse of the Western East rides into battle,

he forms an unbreakable bond with the soldier he bears. In time they become as one, even knowing the innermost feelings of each other's hearts, almost like ring and wearer? There were just a lot of moments in this episode that drew parallels. to that idea of another being or objects that can sense something inside of you. And that might sound comforting in a moment like that exchange.

But what happens when it's not a comfort? And it is in fact something that warps or misleads or betrays you. Love it. Love this. Love all of this. Take me to the log. We're going to know. Before we get to the log, we're going to talk.

Take me to the log. where we get to log, we're going to talk about something we moved out of ring one out of an abundance of caution to ring two, which is this discussion of the elven rings. We got a number of emails about this because the myth real question. Sam, I don't know if Sam hangs out in Ring 2 because this is a very like movie question. So I don't know if Sam is here, but I hope you're here, Sam. Sam asked in the opening monologue to fellowship with the ring, Galadriel teaches us about the rings of power that were given to the men, the elves, and the dwarves. This includes herself. She then recounts how they were all deceit by Sauron who used the one ring to take power over them. Why she's still wearing her ring of power seems like a bad plan.

So the answer is the three rings formed by Kel Brimbor for the elves were formed after Sauron, like skip town. So they're the only rings that he does not have power over, but he coveted them most of all. Because he gets, you know, he gets some of the other rings back, but he wants those three elven rings most of all. Josh wrote in with this quote Of all the elven rings Sauron most desired to possess them, the three. For those had them in their keeping could ward off the decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world. So if we think of Sauron as this person who, in his best moments,

wants to heal the world or provide order, this idea of the elven rings that can heal the land might be something that he would be interested in. And it's also, of course, something that Gil Gallet and Calibrimbor would be very interested in based on this idea of the light of the Eldar fading that we talked about last week. Last email from Gregory on this, The Three Elven Rings were created by Kel Brimbaugh primarily to heal and preserve and ward off decay.

This matches the new show's canon need to preserve the elves of Middle Earth. We are given the direct example of Galadriel's realm of Laughorian being preserved for an age almost solely by her ring. So we know Kell Brimbor will succeed to a point. By the time Frodo meets the elves, they have succeeded in stopping the decay of their small realms by way of the three rings. However, they are also older and wiser and see that the three rings are merely prolonging the inevitable. So, and this is me talking, when the one ring gets destroyed, the elves are supportive of that, knowing that when the one ring destroys the power of their three elven rings that have preserved, Lothorian, Rivendell, etc., will lose their power, and they will have to leave Middle Earth.

But they know it's for the greater good. The age of man is being ushered in, et cetera. Last thing before we get to the log, Mallory Rubin, is this email from Chris on the Meteor Man and the cultists. And Chris wrote, it feels like the three wise men mentioned in the Bible searching for Jesus, but instead we have three freaks searching for Middle Earth's equivalent of the devil. So following the stars. looking for their savior.

All right. That persists as the log and Halbrand. You want to talk about this word bind and how much you and I both freaked out when we heard it?

Okay. It's not good storytelling analysis to just be like it's over. It's done. This is clear confirmation. We'll leave a little more

skepticism in the mix. We'll maintain an open mind. However, I was just like, this is it. This is it. I mean, maybe this is a misdirection. It definitely could be. I felt if I could just hold on to that feeling, keep it with me, always bind it to my very being. One ring to rule them all. One ring to find them. One ring to bring them all. And in the darkness, bind them. I don't know that there's a line that could have made us think more strongly and clearly. of Sauron's intent with the ring.

And I think this question of Sauron is someone who wants to do a thing, bring order to Middle Earth. What that order looks like for him is probably more fascistic than we would like. But bring order to Middle Earth. He needs a power to do it. He feels that power when he is fighting by Galadriel's side. That he gets access to that with her. It's very romantic, honestly, on top of everything else.

And I think something that Damon Lindelof would always say about loss is the greatest answer to a mystery as a person. I think the greatest, like, the greatest answer to this, like, why is Sauron always seeking, seeking Galadriel, seeking the elven rings or whatever? Is it to recapture this feeling of feeling connected to someone the way that, I guess, Ellen Deal talks about horse and rider? but feel connected to someone to feel your perfect match to feel she's feeling the darkness pull from him he's feeling the lightness pull from her this like sort of perfect we've talked about them as like twin mirror image type of figures I think it's really compelling

also he has rings all over his armor that no one else has I just wanted to point that out for no good reason he's got rings on his armor I know ring armor exists but it's like it's like cosmetic It's not functional. It's very interesting. We got this email from Charissa that I really like where she says, Sauron, if he's a villain, it's so much more interesting that he doesn't want to be. How do you feel about that instead of a reluctant king, a reluctant villain? I don't want it.

I don't want it. My queen. Oh, yeah. I mean, of course, that's always, this is part of why, as we've chatted about before in other pods, I love a prequel so much. Actually, it's like sometimes that's about the hero. It's often about the villain and understanding. Like, Van and I are always firmly on Revenge of the Sith Slaps Corner because watching Anakin's, the making of Darth Vader is genuinely and sincerely interesting to me.

One of my favorite chapters across the Potterverse is going to see young Tom Riddle in the orphanage and the way that he looks down at his own hands and says, always. I knew I was special always. I knew there was something and that's like deeply disturbing moment. Like when does this this pull take over somebody's life and when are they lost inside of it? And so the idea that Sauron is searching for something other than pure corrupt darkness, evil, and power from day one is, I think, irrefutably more interesting and more compelling and, like would be. would be one of the ways for this show to really feel like it, like we were talking about earlier at the beginning of the episode,

not only like they made our Lord of the Rings story, but like they enhanced our understanding in a fundamental way of how this world functions. I would love this. An alternative Sauron theory. This is a fairly popular one I've seen around, so I want it to be represented. Tannu emailed us with this theory.

That Sauron is out there. We just haven't seen him yet. Okay. Tenu wrote, I believe Sauron himself is in Lindy. He is hiding in the shadows and manipulating the events that's set in motion to create the rings. He is personally corrupting and killing the tree. He's whispering in Gilgallad's ear, sewing fear in the high elves that their light is fading.

But in the same breath, telling them their salvation is in Mithril. Sauron's counsel has led to Calibirmbur's desire to create the forge, to create the tools, rings for the elves to use the Mithril for their survival. Kelbrimur's relationship with Elron's father, knowing Elron's own relationship with the dwarves, allows him to manipulate. a lesson he learned from Sauron, Elrond to retrieve the mithrail. I believe that in the season finale, Calibrimbor will introduce us to the master blacksmith of the newly constructed forge, and it will be Anatar. Is that Sauron's music I'm hearing? He will suggest forging the rings to help combat Adar and the Ark armies that have built

so much power that Adar has to be Sauron or Undres committed, at least. But once Adar has defeated, Anatar will reveal he is truly Sauron. Here's, I don't hate this theory, but here's why I'm not totally with it. It would explain a lot of hinky stuff going on with Gilgallet, etc. The reason I don't like it is I don't think this show is Sauron walks out of the Shadow Show. He's been here the whole time. I feel like this show is, we're not just going to leave you like a breadcrumb trail. We're going to tear off chutz.

It's croutons. Croutons that were leaving. leaving a trail to the answer. We're going to put Mount Doom in the background of many shots. We're going to call out the name of the mountain before it blows its top. So you won't be like, oh, my God, they were, it was Mount Doom the whole time. You know, so I think, I don't think that's the kind of show that they're wanting to make here. But I've been wrong many times before.

How do you feel about this theory, Mallory? So one thing I do really like about it is, you made a very compelling case last week that the Mithril reveal could point to a deception, could point to Gilgallid and the elves being misled or, in fact, used. And I found myself thinking about that,

not only reading this email, but like thinking about the Ballerog again, because what if that's the point? get the elves to think that they need this mithril to bathe themselves in the light, get them to convince the dwarves to mine for it and delve greedily and deeply enough that they unleash a Balrog. And maybe that is like a power. An essential component of the structuring this plan. So I think that part of it's cool.

I, the reason that I'm not as into it, in addition to what you said, which I agree with, we've talked about this a lot across our pod so far. I think that Hal Brand being Sauron, and again, I'm ready to be wrong and open to any number of other possibilities. It just works so well for Galadryl's arc, too. It does. And that idea, you know, we've quoted so many times the Gilgalad line

like for the same wind that seeks to blow out of fire may also cause its spread. This idea of the self-fulfilling prophecy, when you recognize the thing in front of you, what the mirror shows you or doesn't. It just feels like this outcome is kind of a home run for stitching all of that together. But she brought him in an army to the Southland and has installed him as the king

that all these people are willing to follow. Not that she had a, to be clear, I don't think she had a, oh, God, is a Halbrand moment at the end of this episode, definitely not. But when everybody else is seeking refuge and sheltering. And as you noted, she stands there.

She's staring at what she perceives as her own failure. Yes. And having to confront that, I think, would be just a very, especially given the role that the Harbingers have played with the Great Wave and to Harpalenters warning to Muriel about not going to Middle Earth and the petals of Nimloth and that Gil Gallid warning, et cetera. I just think that that would work best if Elbrant is in fact. Also, we talked about the all hail thing already, but I don't know.

That scene was weird. Like, really, really weird. We have a character who for weeks says this is not, find another head to crown. And then he just literally says, like, yeah, yep, yep, it's me. It's me. Pass the ale. That's just, that was so suspicious. And everyone calling him Lord, we're just one, we just need one more word to get to Dark Lord.

We're so close. Lord. I do think that all of the binding stuff, though, can again. work if he's a ring race. You know, the idea of, and certainly I feel like our guy Theo is very firmly on that path, given what he said about the connection that he still feels to the power here. I'm still in Sauron camp. Can't shake it.

Sorry. All right. Last email. Then we're done for the day. But I really like this email from Craig because it brings together a lot of the things that we've been talking about. Craig wrote in response to what we were talking about last week about the various cultures and their sort of defensiveness of their cultures.

He wrote the theme of the characters in their societies wanting to protect themselves, a good and reasonable desire, interacting with what that means for those people slash societies and how they interact with each other. In each of these societies, there is a fear that if they don't control their own destiny, they will fail to be able to protect themselves.

Harfoot's hiding from outsiders and strangers, elves suspicious of the people in the South and being sly with the dwarves to get me through, leaders of Numenor keeping their secret visions from their own people and refusing to interact with outsiders. Those are all acts of mistrust that come from a very understandable desire for protection. But ultimately, they are motivated by fear. And like Halbrand told us, first you find out what they fear. They mistrust each other and require power in order to achieve their ends.

And then you give them a means of achieving that the rings of power so that you may master them with the one ring. So from that theme, my prediction, mistrust grows. Hal Brand helps make some awesome rings of power to allow each of these people and societies to protect themselves, to be self-sufficient, and only through overcoming that desire for self-sufficiency and through allowing vulnerability in order to trust is the last alliance of elves and men and Harfuts and wizards and dwarfs formed to defeat that evil. Because they've cut off what gave that evil mastery over them fear and a desire for power to overcome that fear.

we see the very first sprouts of that light in Arandere and Bronwood, the Harfoots and the Stranger, and Allendeel and Galadriel. I love that. How do you feel about it? Flawless, no notes. I mean, give them a means of mastering it so that you can master them. It's just that you feel that very keenly when he is helping the way that he is helping here and ushering them to safety and defending.

And again, maybe mixed in with a. sincere desire to try to find another way. But yeah, I think that that sounds right and why that idea of taking a fear and learning how to not actively weaponize it, but actually seek to turn your weaponization into something that masquerades. Take the, take the darkness and masquerade it as light, right? Take the shadow and, and pretend that it's, pretend that it's a garden that you're nurturing so that you can tie everybody up in the weeds that you fostered. I think that this works. I like it.

Love that. So you know what? That is this episode of the Rings of Power. Just a few things to recap. Number one, Hallibrand, definitely Sauron. He said the word bind. We have no doubts. Number two, Joseph Mall.

I cannot fall to you for ringing every single second of drama out of your line reads. Your delivery of Uruk was sensational. I applaud you. Thirdly, Mallory would like to know why there's no fucking on this island. Why are we not having

sex in Middle Earth? And I have no answers for her. All right, so that is it for the Ring reverse Rings of Power. This week, thanks those always

to our Juniper and Kapal, to Jomey a dinner on the socials to Carlis Chiroboga for his tireless editing work on, I believe it's Thursday night football

night. And the dolphins are playing. And he's got to edit a podcast. Sorry, Carlos. But thanks to your tireless service. And we will see you all for Talk to Thrones on Sunday. For the House of the Dragon Tea Time on Tuesday. For Andor on Wednesday with the Midnight Boys Pugh.

And then she hulk. And then we're back during his power. Just a few more weeks of this. Love doing it with Mallory Rubin. love getting all your emails, Hops and Dragons and Gmail.com. We will see you next week. Bye! What's the difference between butter and butter made from real California dairy?

It's the real California farm families behind it. Real people. Real care. Real intention. Why? Because real matters. So whether you're pouring milk, melting of cheese, or just grabbing one more spoonful of yogurt, keep it real. Look for the seal. Real California milk by Real California Farm Families. Enjoy more ways to save at Ralph's, like low prices in every aisle. And when you download the Ralph's app, you can clip and save more with digital coupons every week. Plus, you can earn fuel points to save up to $1 per gallon at the pump. At Ralph's, you can enjoy more ways to save and more rewards every time you shop. So it's always easy to save big every day with savings and rewards. SoCal for over 150 years.

Savings may vary by state. Fuel restrictions apply. See site for details.