The Ringer-Verse - 'The Rings of Power' Episode 7 Deep Dive | House of R

Episode Date: October 7, 2022

Joanna and Mal are back in Middle-earth to talk about the penultimate episode in Season 1 of 'The Rings of Power.’ They start by discussing their overall impressions of the episode (7:43). Then, they go for a Helm's-Deep deep dive into the episode to break down all the details and character moments in every storyline (11:59). Later, they discuss their theories about what's in store for the finale (2:02:22). Finally, they take a dip in the Forbidden Pool and analyze Prince Durin, looking ahead to what potential book spoilers might mean for his character arc (2:11:18). If you would like to email Mal and Joanna about the show, you can reach them at [e-mail]. Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Associate Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Social: Jomi Adeniran Addition Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Yossi Salick, and I'm the host of Bansplain, a show where we explain cult bands and iconic artists by going deep into their histories and discographies. We're back with a brand new season at our brand new home, the Ringer podcast network, tackling a whole new batch of artists, from grunge gods to Power Pop pioneers to new metal legends and many, many more. Listen to new episodes every Thursday, only on Spotify. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required.

Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfairadio.com. This episode is brought to by Paramount Plus. Beth and Ripper back at a new series, Dutton Ranch. Kelly Riley and Colehouser returned, and this time they're taking on Texas.

As Beth and Rip build a future together, peace will have to wait as they face corruption, danger, and a ruthless rival ranch willing to protect its secrets at all costs. Legacy is a beautiful thing, but only if it survives. Dutton Ranch starring Colehouser, Kelly Riley, Annette Benning and Ed Harris, now streaming on Paramount Plus. It will be all right. It is sake. Brandyfoot.

Give us a moment to weep. Weep in me. Is that all you think we have left in us? We're hardfuss. Look, we don't slay dragons. Not much for digging jewels. But there's one thing we can do, I want, better than any creature in all the Middle Earth.

We stay true to each other, no matter how the path winds or how steep it gets. We face it. But our hearts even bigger in our feet. And we just keep walking. Your nexus, I just, sorry, I just got transported by that little speech. This, though, is your nexus podcast.

Feed for all things. Fandom, I'm Joanna Robinson joining me today, putting one foot in front of the other. At the end of a week with me, it's Mallory Rubin. Hi, Mallory. Joanna, what's the good of living if we aren't living good? Wow. A mobile quote right at the top. I'm so thrilled to be here.

A better way to start. We are here to talk about Rings of Power, Episode 7. The Eye. I don't know why I said it that way. I just decided to. Channel when you're in a Waldrick. Yeah, but it's just like, The Eye. Have you heard of it, lad?

The end of the eye. You've heard of the eye. Have you earned of Amazon Prime? before we get into Waldrig Malva, all the rest. Just to let you know, we got an email actually just this morning

from someone being like, what do you, how will I get to still listen to Mallory and Joanna once the rings of power and House of the Dragon are through? Folks, welcome to the ringerverse. Boy. We just keep going. Okay, so programming reminders.

Oh, boy. Mallory and I, yes. We do Rings of Power on Friday. We do Talk the Thrones about House of the Dragon on Sunday. We'll be doing that with Chris Ryan. We do a deep dive on House of the Dragon on Tuesday. The Midnight Boys are doing Andor. Our beloved pal, Ben Lindbergh is doing She-Hulk.

But when Rings of Power is done, Mallory and are going to be hopping over to do some and-or coverage ourselves. And then there's just a lot of other stuff coming up, Wakanda Forever. Willow ever heard of it. Like, there's just going to be all kinds of stuff this fall and winter that we'll be covering. So just stay subscribed to the ringerverse when rings of power and house the dragon are done.

And then you won't have to miss us because guess what? We'll be here. Right here. Right here. Stay in true. I'm not sure, however, that the email Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com will still be going, but it might. We don't know.

Um, Mallory, other than subscribe to the podcast, which we always hope people will do, how else can they stay informed about what you and I will be talking for hours on end about every week? Oh, boy, you know, in addition to following the pod on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast, you can follow the ring reverse across our myriad social feeds. We're everywhere. The ringer, the social, just the real. The Baltimore accent came out in full, in full force right there. Oh, what a season for the O's. It's, boy, a special one that I'll think about finally for a long time. The Ringiverse is everywhere, Joe.

We are on TikTok and we are on Twitter. And we are on Instagram. If you're into IG Reels, you can find plenty of them on the Ringervverse Instagram handle. We're all over the place. So find us on the social platform of your choosing. And Joanna mentioned that email address. send us your musings at hobbits and dragons at gmail.com. That's hobbits and dragons at gmail.com.

Speaking of, I just want to wish Connor luck on the Chicago Marathon. Connor emailed us to let us know that they're running the Chicago Marathon and that I guess our weekly pod output will just be able to sustain them through the whole race. So good luck to that. I hope this is the amp-up music that you need to get you going. Look, Connor, a marathon. I could quite literally never. I would quite literally never, but I really support Connor and all in all their numbers.

I can barely make it to the mailbox. But last one at least. Yeah. Spoiler warning. Guess what? Ring 3 is back this week. Okay. So here's what we do, right?

Okay. On rings of power. Power. We're separating our spoilers out. We're separating our spoilers out. in three ways. First ring, ring one. That's us talking about the show and also talking about it in the way that people who

rewatch the Peter Jackson films every year and have read the books, we'll talk about the show. So we know things. Like, I'm just going to drop it right here. I just have full Tyrion Lannister. I drink and I know things. And I respect it. I'm going full Tywin Lannister.

I respect that. I, I'm just. just going to say right here. This is Ring 1 content. Sealedor, not dead. So, you know, that's the kind of stuff you can find in Ring 1. I'm just saying, just saying some people might not. We do. We're going to talk about it. Ring 2, that's like speculation city, right? That's when we're using our book knowledge to guess about the identities of various people or come up with some theories or maybe wonder where Galadriel's husband is, like blah, blah, all that sort of stuff. Okay, that's ring two. Ring three. I think what ring three has turned into is sort of a little deeper dive on

a character that's in the show. That's sort of like what's been cropping up there. So we're going to talk about Duren, I think a bit more in ring three and just sort of what we can expect what we feel like they might be setting up and how that aligns with how everything plays out in the book. So that's it. You've been more. I wanted to ask you on the Duren front. Yeah. Because we have more than one Duren. How do you feel about me going with Pops? a D or Big D and Little D as shorthand. What do you think? I like Big D and Little D.

I deeply hate it. What about what about Junior? Junior for the younger one. Little Indiana Jones, a little chunk pottery. No. All right. Let's start here with our long expected party, our opening snapshot. So this episode, as we mentioned, is called the I.

Written by Jason Cahill, directed by Charlotte Brandstrom. Kale is known mostly for Sopranos and Fringe episodes that he's done. Two of my favorite shows of all time. We've never talked about fringe, but I really couldn't have missed that. Hit me up about Peter and Olivia literally anytime. And then Charlotte Branson has been working in this industry for a long time, but has done episodes of Outlander and the Witcher, so you can sort of see how some of these incredible visuals that we got in this episode might be right up her alley. So let's just start with this question.

Malory Rubin, did you enjoy this episode of television? Loved it. Absolutely loved it. Oh, boy. I had a great time, you know, coming off my least favorite episode of the season. And I think the episode before that, episode five had been my favorite. And I'm kind of in a race to the finish tie right now between five and seven for, which is my favorite of the season so far.

They're definitely at the top of the list. Though I, you know, we'll see. Reserve the right to change my personal ranking at any point after a complete rewatch and after we see how the season concludes. But this episode had really everything that I've come to love and look for in a Rings of Power episode. First of all, that character mix that we really cherish was back in full. Just miss spending time with the Harfuts, miss spending time with Elrond and Duran and Disa and, you know, big D. too. So we got it all. We got it all.

It's not. Stop trying to make fetch happen. It's not going to happen. And this episode made me laugh. Shout out the beard lice exchange. This episode made me absolutely weep like a child sitting alone in a dark room and a bathrobe watching my screen or texting you. brought to tears multiple times, particularly by Elrond and Little D. I'm going to let Little D pass

only because adding the bathrobe element because I knew you were alone in a dark room texting me, but I didn't know you were in your bathroom. I recently got a lovely new bathroom. And I have to say, for the first time of my life, for the first time of my life at 36, I've discovered a totally new source of magic and joy.

And I don't know what took me so long, frankly. It's great. Wow. It's great. This episode made me think, Joe, and had really thought-provoking, deeply, thematically rich plot threads. It just had everything. It was the exact kind of blend that I've come to love about the show.

How about you? Yeah. This is my favorite episode. I think we were maybe someone in the minority of not loving it. last week's episode. And that's not surprising to me because I often don't love a battle episode as much as other people do, but that's okay because the aftermath of a battle episode is usually something I really love. And this just opens with incredible visuals, some of which we had seen in the trailer, like the Galadriel covered in ash, that red light. But to just see it sustained,

especially coming off a week of House of the Dragon, where everyone was talking about how dark everything was. I was like, oh, look, the whole land is covered in smoke and ash, and I can still see everything perfectly. So I thought this was a beautiful episode. And then, yeah, I was just thrilled to have Duren and Disa and other Duren and Elron and the Harfutts back in the mix here. I thought it was a great balance of everything. So let's get into it. Let's start with, and I also wept alone in a room, but I wasn't wearing a bathroom, but I was texting you. This episode is brought to by Borris Head. What if we told you the taste of deep fried turkey is now available at your local deli?

Well, Borishead just did that. Bursting with flavor, perfectly seasoned with that indulgent taste that usually means pointing your whole day around it. Presenting the friar's turkey breast only from Borershead. The backyard tradition now available behind the counter. Visit your local deli today. Discover the craftmanship behind every bite. Borershead committed to craft since 1905.

Playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, and misses. Predict the spread, the total points, and even the game winner. Sign up for Fandual Predicts and predict it from the couch. Offered by Fandual Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant. 18 plus. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tools. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters.

Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis.

Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfairadio.com. Helms Deep. This is our deep dive into episode seven. We're going to go character beat by character beat, essentially, as we've done in the past. So we're just going to do the harfits all the way through, starting with Poppy singing a little snailing song that opens the episode. We get the full song like in three parts throughout the episode with just like one line that I couldn't hear over a babbling brook. But Carlos, will you play as the money verse of this song, please? turns her into the snake. Oh, Baldera, he caught her, so juicy and so sweet. They say his little daughter, he could not help her. All right, this is, okay, first of all, Mallory and I both last their shit, of course, at the juicy and so sweet.

Not only hearing so juicy and so sweet, but hearing that while somebody is splashing and splashing in an open pool. of water? I mean, are we sure that Poppy is not Smeagle? Deception, masks, big part of Tolkien lore. Do we need to move the Poppy as Smeagle theory into Ring 2? Oh, God. I love this. I mean, this is another banger from, from, I assume, J.D. wrote these lyrics as well. J.D. wrote the lyrics to Wandering Day. Bulger Buck is a great name because it's like, like all the Harfoot names, it's like a combination of Hobbit names that we've heard before, of course. Good old fatty Bulger was a key figure in Lord of the Rings. And then like we've heard, you know, Brandy Foot, Brandy Buck is the thing.

And I love that. This is such a fun little cheersome song. But the plot of the song is some guy went a snailing, left his babe on the bank. The babe got turned to his snail. He caught the babe. and then ate his daughter. So perfect combo of sweetness and yikes. It's Tolkien, baby.

It's tough. It's tough. Do you think that, you know, we're in October already? Mearing not only the holiday season, but Spotify Rapp's season. Do you think that any of Poppy's jams will be baking it into the top five of your wrapped? I honestly think Wondering Day will be. in my top five. I've listened to it so many times.

We can't say what because of embargoes, by the way, but there is, like, by the time you listen to this, there will probably be rings of power musical news that will have broken that we can't talk about, but I'm very excited about that one. I haven't heard it yet. That might make my Spotify rap for sure. So we'll talk about that more next week when we're allowed to talk about it. We got this Hobbiton dragons at gmail.com. We got this. email from Brian that I really loved about the lyrics of Wandering Day because we actually got a bunch of emails asking people asking us to break down the lyrics of Wandering Day and I did not feel very qualified to do so. But Brian has this really great theory that the lyrics are an homage

to Sam and Frodo's Journey in Lord of the Rings. Let's give some examples. The sun is falling fast. The sun is fast falling beneath trees of stone is how the song starts. And he says that reminds me of the fellowship going through Kazadun in the dark. The light in the tower no longer my home. Brian Rice, I can't imagine the Harfut's building or living in towers, so this line especially stands out. It makes me think of Minis Morgul and Siroth Ungo being built by the men of Gondor,

but taken over by Sauron, and Sam and Frodo going past them to get to Mordor. Here's the next line. This is the one that really sold me on Brian's theory. Past Eyes of Pale Fire. Brian says this is definitely Shilab. There's a sentence towards the end. under two towers that that seems directly taken from, which goes, quote,

the radiance of the starglass was broken and thrown back from their thousand facets, but behind the glitter, a pale, deadly fire began steadily to glow within a flame kindled in some deep pit of evil thought. So shout out Sheelab and her terrible eyes. Thousand eyes and one. And then black sand for my bed is the next lyric, which Brian says that makes me think of sneaking through the volcanic landscape. Mount Doom. And then no rest or comfort, no comfort, but song evokes the vibes of Sam

forlorn and Zarath Ungole that he had lost Frodo. So, Mal, how do you feel about this interpretation of Wandering Day? Absolutely love it. I had thought with the light in the tower lyric about Weathertop as well previously, in part because I'm always thinking about weathertop and stewed tomatoes. But yeah, I think you could definitely map the lyrics on to that journey, which obviously this is the singing of the song is set well before Sam and Frodo's journey story, but like as a gift to us as fans, that's a beautiful thing. I also think, Joe, that we could probably map some of the lyrics onto our experience, you know? I have no rest, nor comfort, no comfort, but pod. What do you think? Yeah. What are the eyes of pale fire

in this context? That's a great question. I have a lot of questions about that. Anyway, if you have other interpretations of Wandering Day, please feel free. Hobbs and Dragons at Gmail.com, but I love that interpretation from Brian. Are wandering Harfoots with Poppy just singing about snailing? They smell one of my favorite smells.

Barbecue on the wing, on the wind. I feel like I'm in Austin, Texas. There's a, there's some ribs on the open flame. Mallory, did you think, oh, this is going to be fine? Or did you think, uh-oh, we saw a volcano erupt last week? So simultaneously, I thought, uh-oh, we saw now doom erupt last week and they are walking into Before door, no more door, more door. But then I thought, what if someone's making a smore door in more door, you know? Why not? Why not? If you've got fire everywhere, break out some

chocolate, some marshmallows, some graham crackers, make the land work for you. What's wrong with your brain? I love you so much. I love a campfire. I love the smell of a campfire. One of my favorite bites of food that I've ever had was at a wonderful restaurant in L.A. called Ink, where you could get these charcoal potatoes and they just taste like a campfire and it's great. So it also just made me hungry, even though I knew that our beloved Harfuts were marching toward doom. We contain multitudes. Please, some ice cream shop, make us a smordor no more door flavor.

I so appreciate it. Sadak talks about, but it's not a campfire. It's, you know, little chunks of volcano that have come and crushed a very crucial, it would seem, food stop on the Harfoot tour. Yeah. The growth. And Sadak says this really interesting thing where he says mountains that talks about mountains that can spit fire. rock that go to sleep for hundreds of years only to wake in again when the new evil is rising. My thought was that this was a way for the show to sort of yada, yada, yada, yada smooth over.

The fact that Mount Doom erupting in last week's episode kind of contradicts the established lore that Morgoth was chilling with Mount Doom created Mount Doom in the first stage. So maybe the idea is Morgoth created it. It went to sleep. Now a new evil is rising. Saddock is looking very pointedly at our... six-pack stranger, but, you know, some new evil's rising, so the volcano went off again. Yeah, and I kind of like that because this idea of cycles and repeating occurrences across time and across character sets ties in more broadly to something else that we'll be discussing

a lot today, which is one of our recurring talking points across these episodes, fate, destiny, when you put your faith in something that is maybe outside of your ability to shape and then how you reconcile that with your deeply rooted desire to make decisions that inform your own fate. So something also there just about, and this began something that was another through line of the episode, like the connection between the people who inhabit the land and the land itself has obviously been something we've talked about as central and elemental to Tolkien's world. But specifically in this episode, five, and rock as these elements that touch multiple storylines and plot lines.

The Balrog, of course, everything that Papa Dee says to Little D about their creation, what we're hearing from Sadak here, etc. I really liked that as this unifying thread across character sets at time. Speaking of cycles and loops and all this sort of stuff, I just noticed this for the first time. I'm sure he's been wearing it this whole time, but Saddick has like a ring on a a chain around his neck. Is this something you would notice before? It stood out in this episode, like in a very clear and plain way.

Like, our eye was meant to settle on it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we know that he lost his partner. So perhaps it's that ring, his wedding ring, carrying it with him, you know, resting against his heart as he continues the migration. and continues the journey and remains true in that way.

Perhaps there's something else to it. I was just like, I can't believe I haven't noticed that this dude is just wearing a ring on a chain this whole time, something that we should pay attention to maybe. Sonic pivots pretty swiftly from implying that the stranger is the evil that has caused a volcano to erupt to, you want to use those healing hands of yours to help heal the grove for us here? Not the grove in L.A., but a grove where apples grow. And the stranger, like a rondeer before him, like Tolkien, our favorite tree guy, is very upset about the state of this black and insured tree. Love that our babe, our favorite, Malva says, saddock trees don't talk.

And then he says, some do. He's like, let's sit down and watch two towers. Two towers. Spend some time with the ends. Don't be so hasty. Malva. So I love that Sadak knows so much, which is really great news for the fact that he's joined the little fellowship that breaks out from this group here. The fact that they have someone who knows who's like deep in the lore.

Knows way more about the lore than we do. I love that like not only as a little Easter egg for us though, but as one more reminder of this connection to the land and then the theme of environmentalism and like an understanding of how. how the resources, the natural resources around you are not just there for you to use to the extent of your heart's liking, but that these are living things as well. And like, that's one of the things that's been fun for us to track that distinction between the characters who would seek to bend these elements to their will

and use them to fuel and achieve what, desire, fall, or otherwise they might be pursuing, and the characters like the heart foot to really live not only off of, but as one with the land. And so, like, that was really cool, but also then this through line, this was something that you, you highlighted in a lovely way last week, like healing in the story and gardens in the story. And all of that is very present here with the stranger and the healing of the tree, but then also across the episode, we have all of, like, the stranger in the grove, the meathril and the leaf, the healers. caring for the injured Southlanders and Newman-Norians.

Yeah. Very present in episode seven here. When he literally heals the garden, I was like, well, tick, baby. New life and defiance of death. It's that idea from last week, very present here. He uses Quenia, one of the elvish languages, to try to renew the tree and the grove here. And as we mentioned many times, we do not have close captioning. on the screenage that we get.

So cut to me with the Quinea to English Dictionary, trying to sound out some words and figure out what he says here. It's incredible work by you. I stand an absolute icon. This is amazing. I am not fluent in Quania, but this is the best I can do. So he says enveniata is one thing he says,

which means healed or renewed. This is one of Aragorn's titles. Aragorn says, Verily in the high tongue of old, I am Elisar. the Elf Stone, and Enviniatar, the Renewer. So, renew. It's one thing that he says. Lotana is another thing he says.

Lote is what means flower in Cuenia. We've talked about Nimloth, the tree, so that like ending of Nimloth, lot flower. And then Anna means like give. So give flotana, like give flower. Create a flower, right? And then Oquita, O means and quita just means renew and refresh. So renew, give flower. and renew and refresh.

I was like, that sounds like all things that he would say when he was urging a tree to grow. So I think that that's what's going on here. If I miss something, you know where to find this. But does this all go, I mean, as is all things, stranger and healing, does this go according to Planned Mallory or what happens here? There is some quick shifting from the collective embrace

of this healing pursuit. into somomitous, intense and elevated chanting and a shift in tone, and then the shattering and collapsing of a branch on top of our beloved Harfoots, the fear that, in particular, you know, you noted this shift from Saddick and co, from really fearing the big fella

into embracing what this magic might afford them. And, you know, within that, Norie is experiencing the inverse. like Nori was the advocate at the beginning. Why can't we open our minds to the wonders of the world and to how outsiders might help us see and explore those things? And the fear, you know, we saw it after the healing pool, that real palpable fear that Nori experienced after

that direct connection and exposure to the force of the magic. And to see Nori weaving in and out of that feeling across this episode, just felt very true to me. Like to be purely unabashedly okay with everything that you'd be witnessing would defy belief. But that kernel of doubt setting in and then working in tandem with this still very present belief and desire to explore and to support each other. And it's not an isolation because it's something that the stranger is experiencing himself. And I think that that's equally important.

Doubt was a central theme in this episode with Galadriel, with Elendial, with Doran, etc. Like all these characters with Nori doubting, whether the decisions, not only whether the decisions that they've made are right, but whether they have actively invited some sort of harm to befall them and the people that they care about. And so the way that the stranger here is so clearly unsure of his own strength and his own power, not only how to wield it, but what the extent of it might be and what it might mean for the people around him, and you contrast in very close quarters

something like the just pure, the look of pure longing and joy on his face when Saddock gives him the star map, not only because that's an act of kindness and acceptance, but also because it is a connection to something familiar. And his own doubt, exactly. He understands what he's supposed to do. Yeah.

His own doubt is centered in the lack of understanding, of something that is central to who, who he is and how other people see him. Like, that's a very, very, very scary thing. Sitting side by side with the doubt of this episode is this idea of friendship and fellowship, like, which we've been talking about throughout. But like what I love about this sequence with Norie and Stranger, both that their encounter from the previous episode and this one is that friendship and fellowship shouldn't necessarily be obvious or easy. You know what I mean? So you think about, there's a lot of examples in Lord of the Rings, but like the best,

the best one, I think, is Gollum. And, like, Frodo being like, we should not take this guy. And Frodo, having learned the lessons from Genoff, is like, let's take, you know, and again and again, Gallum is imperiling them. And again and again, Frodo is like,

this person needs to come with us. And so that's sort of like, it shouldn't be easy and obvious, the friendship and fellowship that we see in these stories. And I think it's really, saddock is really interesting, because he just keeps swinging back and forth in this episode. Shout out to Lenny Henry for, like, selling me on every decision.

But, like, he gives a stranger a star map. But it's very much, like, here's your hat, what's your hurry? He's just sort of like, here's the star map, bye. Like, I just accused you of maybe being the evil that's set off a volcano. Then I asked you to heal the growth for us. When that did not go well, I am asking you now kindly to please leave. And he mentions Greenwood the Great as a place for, The Stranger to Go, which is another name for Merkwood Forest.

Before it was Merkwood, it had the name Greenwood. And if you don't remember what the Merckwood Forest is, let me just say this forest has everything. What else? Spiders, Nazgul, Orks, Woodman, men that turn into bears. This is a huge location for The Hobbit, Merckwood. But it doesn't become Merkwood until the necromancer who is Sarin moves in there. So before that, it's just, you know, like a nicer foresty kind of place. I don't know.

The spiders might already be there, but I don't think so. So, you know, the adventure seems to be taking us into Markwood, called Greenwood the Great. Will we encounter wood elves there? Will we encounter men who turn into bears there? like leap pace isn't there yet but you know there's some other delights yeah there's some other delights that that might oh waitos there um i i liked too joe with the the oscillating of whether to trust and encourage or fear the stranger like arriving at this grove this place that they have been marching toward not only because of the the bounty and the plenty and the sustenance

that it provides, but also because in safety, it's a part of that migration, a part of that wheel, a trusted refuge. When they see that volcanic rock, I would assume, because for me as a viewer, this was the case, I would assume it was the case for them as characters too.

Like, there's, they're going to think of that, the meteor, the meteor man again. There's like a visual similarity to this incursion and scorched earth and the settling in of the ash and the char, this cover of darkness masking this fruit of life beneath not only connects to this larger theme of the story when can you tell the difference between darkness and light

and can you push through the darkness to reach that light and that goodness? But also just as it would be a natural thing if it pushed these characters back to that moment of fear. And I think anytime that we see someone pluck an apple off a tree or give an apple to someone, And we have to, of course, think of Stephanie Meyer's seminal work, Twilight. No, I'm just kidding, but that is the cover of Twilight.

Oh, my God. A lot of biblical identical identical energy energy and imagery in this sequence here. And Nori feeling completely crushed after all of her proclamations of her destiny. So it's like that tells Goldie, I'm just a hard foot. It's all I'll ever be. You know, and her mom tells her go to bed. And then she looks up at the moon, which is just like I still don't feel like we've talked about this a little bit in ring two.

I still don't feel like I have a solid grasp on what the moon has to do with all of this. Do you have a lot of moon gazing in this episode? Yeah. A lot. Yeah. Interesting. But in the morning, Lori wakes up. Poppy is singing more of the delightful snealing song in between juicy.

sweet bites of apple. And we find out that the stranger, maybe they set the stranger away a little perfunctorily because the grove is in bloom. Yeah. Malva's going to make apples sauce. Yeah.

I prefer apple sausage. I prefer apple sausage. A true why not both situation for me. Delicious. Joe, do you have a favorite apple? What's your favorite apple? Oh, easy. This is the easiest question you've ever asked me. This is like one of my oldest, fondest loves.

A tart, crisp, sour, graysmith apple. Oh, my God. The sourer, the better. Awful. Yeah. Awful. Delicious. Delicious.

Oh, my God. Do you like a mushy, mealy red delicious? Like, where are you? No. I mean, I'd like to think that you have more faith in here, but it's just like you, you and King out there. And Carlos, our producer,

backs me on the Granny Smith apple. I like a Granny Smith apple as an ingredient. Actually, Adam uses Granny Smith to make his homemade applesauce of Thanksgiving and it's delicious. Maybe in a pie. But if I'm just going to have an apple, which I do routinely, number one, pink lady, can't beat it.

That has that tartness too, but not in a, in an overpowering at times offensive way. And then number two, honey crisp. Delicious. I love apples. Picking an apple from an apple orchard was one of my favorite things to do in college in central New York. You go to the apple orchard on a crisp fall day and then you get a dozen apple cider donuts. Wonderful. I, because I'm a, I have been apple picking. I have experienced this autumnal joy myself. My, my grandpa, isn't everyone excited that we're talking about rings of power? My grandpa.

taught me how my grandpa who also loved Granny Smith apples, taught me how to carve apples. Like, just take a pairing knife and sit down and just, like, carve off slices for yourself. Like Ramsey Bowden? Just you and Ramsey Bowled. My grandpa, my dearly beloved departed grandfather and me. But also to eat Granny Smith slices with peanut butter. Like, that's a really good combo. I love to dip an apple and peanut butter.

Yeah. Sweet. I don't like hot fruit or pies. We've talked about this. So like, this is also a dismaying take. Applesauce. Applesauce is off the menu for me. Oh, my God.

Meets back on the menu. Applesauce. What joy in life can match a fresh pipe and hot fruit pie or a fruit cobbler with a nice crumbly top? I don't know. Maybe one day if I get to like hold my own child in my arms or something, I'll know a love that pure. But right now it's like my love for Halo and my love for a delicious fruit pie. Top of the list. What would Halo say to your little vis here? He's number one always. Okay. Good. All right. Poppy sees something. I thought she saw something in the water. She said something in the bank. She's out of footprint. But when she looked down in the water, I was like, again, very smeggely. Two smeggle moments, right? Seeing the ring of power in the water for the first time, that's a moment. But then also made me think of the dead marshes and all the like tricksy lights and the candles of the corpses and don't look to.

down in the water sort of thing. But what I love up this is Poppy sees his footprint on the shore, a large-ish footprint. This is not a Harfoot footprint, I guess. And she's just gone. I loved that. Like, the camera pans down and then whips back up and it's just Bucket City, no Poppy, just speaks to, like, how quickly the Harfits can just completely disappear themselves. And then with the mention of Merkwood, did the bucket going, like, down the falls make you think of Bilbo and the Dwarves and the

barrels. Like, that's what it made me think about. Absolutely. Yeah. And in part just because I've always had so many questions about that particular escape strategy and some of the, some of the tactics. Doesn't seem safe. Doesn't seem safe to me. It's not what I would go for. Oh, God. But the cultists are here and the soundtrack would like us to know that this is a very scary thing. Okay. It's working. Because this is like legitimately unsettling. Were you, were you spooked by this? I was. I was so scared. The way that. the camera shoots up at them from the Harfoot POV when they snatched, like, I don't know what, acorn, I don't know what they snatched off Norie's head, but it's scared the shit out of me.

It's like, what are they going to do with that? It's never good when a magical being plucks one of your hairs and or the egg corn that you wear on your hair adornment. That's only going to lead to something tragic. Very bad. But so they're like, they see the sign of growth. they are headed off towards something. I think we're, I have trouble, as you may have remembered from our map lesson before,

I'm not great with geography. But I feel like what we're supposed to believe is they point in a direction and are headed off where the stranger went. And then Norie's like, no, no, he went that away. So Nori endangers everyone to point the cultists in the opposite direction of the stranger. And guess what? It doesn't go well, does it? Mallory Ruman.

Instead of the cultists immediately saying, cool, thanks for the tip. Right. I mean, first of all. Which is what any polite cultist would do, I think. You think Poppy vanished quickly? The cultists are instantly, it's almost like they could apparate. And maybe they can.

I mean, they're instantly in a difference. It's very unsettling. And our beloved Papa Brandyfoot Largo, comes over with a torch engulfed in flame as torches are absorbs this fire in like these blackened fingertips and then deploys with a quiet breath

a plume of embers and smoke that then instantly lights on fire all of the carts in this caravan my first thought I was like are there are there people in those cars Like, I thought that they maybe just genocided the Harfuts.

That does not seem to be the case. It seems to just be, like, the produce and their entire way of life and all of their earthly belongings, which is bad enough. But I was like, at first I was like, oh, my God. And the thing about these cultists who, you know, are very quiet and mysterious. I mean, like, this is what the show is giving us is the Nazgul, essentially, right? Like, these aren't Nazgul, but, like, you know, they're dressed in white. It's the opposite of the black writers, so like that. The specter person.

suing you. The silent, absolutely terrifying. The soundtrack is going to tell you to be very scared, very, very scary people. I loved it. I think it was great. Really, really terrifying. Malva's very freaked out. Poor Saddak is crying. Yeah, everybody's, everybody's very shaken by this the next morning. Norrie is frozen still with regret. But not everybody. Not everybody, Joe. No, it's a big episode for dads because Largo's like, get up. And we already heard this little speech from Largo. It opened the episode. I loved it. I thought it was great. But what I loved even more was Sadduk saying Pity St. Brandy Fittin, give us a moment to weep, which is definitely a Boremer. Give them a moment for Pity-sake line, you know.

I mean, and he's talking about hobbits. Yeah. Largo's like, this hill is going to be swarming with orcs. No, but... Not only is he talking about Hibis. He's talking about Hibbis after, of course, Gandalf falls to the Belrog. So there's also that connection to fire taking something that you love and this like, this feeling of safety and refuge away from you. That was a really fun callback to the films.

I liked that a lot. And these are just like the, really fun, great little subtle Easter eggs that they're slipping in here that you don't have to know that it's a reference to that. But, you know, I did do the Leo pointing meme when that happened.

Anyway. Okay, so Norie's had a change of heart, right? Okay, her dad gives... She fucked this up. She fucked that up. She fucked all this things up. She's sitting there very like, what the hell am I going to do?

Her dad gives her this rousing speech. And then she's like, I'm going to go help my friend. That she says, my friend. The other option would have been to say when you say we stayed true to each other, what about the people who died from the bees

who we just laugh at every year? But instead... Right. And Poppy says we left enough folk behind. We're not leaving him. Like, Poppy's like, uh, like my entire family, I guess, who died a landslide. Like, our whole way of life is pretty garbage. So maybe we should do this a little differently this time.

Malva, our, babe, our best friend Malva suggests that a trail finder, should go with them and looks pointedly at Sattuck, who I guess is in the like the Strider position, right? Strider is the trailfinder arranger for the fellowship. Fun fact, did you know that for a very long time in many drafts, Strider was not the lost king of Gondor.

Strider was called Trotter, first of all, very bad. was also a hobbit. A hobbit named Trotter became Vigo Mortensen named Strider. Boy. This is why we workshop our drafts, you know? This is why we keep working. Frodo's name was Bingo. Right?

Instead of Frodo Bagan's, it was Bingo Baganz. Imagine Bingo Buggins and Trotter going to Mordor. So yeah, revise, revise, revise. I got to say, Joe, the Malva showing in this episode, A thrill for us. I mean, first of all, that line that we already talked about, what's the good of living static if we aren't living good? Just an all-timer.

True wisdom here inside of an episode of television in the streaming wars era, loved it. We bought that Malva stock early. We held on to it. We felt so vindicated in our investment in Malva. Put us in industry season three. Okay. Because we know a good investment when we see one. Is that how stacks work?

I don't know. I don't know. I have no idea. So it's like a little, but it's like a little fellowships. Four Harfoits, like four Hobbits, right? Like a little fellowship going off into Merckwood, essentially, right? And what I love, it's a very unexpected, like Poppy and Norie breaking off and doing their little adventure. I could have called that any of us.

We're just like, okay, our Sam and Frodo. Sure. Yeah. Sat up going with them. Surprising and really fun to me. Goldie going with them. I'm thrilled. I love it.

This was really great. This is the Goldie, given how the Goldie, there's so much love and affection and this nurturing spirit inside of this family and this larger community, but the real challenge

to Norrie's desire in earlier episodes, you know, in response to that, like haven't you ever wonder what else is out there? Impulse and desire, the real challenge consistently came from Goldie. And so for Norrie's mother to be the one to say, I will join you, not only does that really fuel the spirit of fellowship that's present in this episode and

so central to this tale in this universe, I think it also connects to this other idea we're going to talk about a lot today, this idea of faith and hope. Because it's a rekindling for Nori who needed to restore her faith, who had had it shaken. And the fact that, like, you could do that on your own is empowering, certainly. But the real heart of that comes from how other people helping you find that faith and you helping other people discover it in the first place. And I just think that that's like a really, really lovely thing. It's a great showing for parents in the Harfoot camp. Let's go to Kazat Dune, shall we, and see how the parents are doing over there.

We're going to check it now with Duran and Eldron, Elrond, what I'm calling brothers, brothers captains kings. Again, you bought it early on Elron stock. This is a great Elron episode, a great Duran episode. There's not a bad Elron and Duran episode, but like this is really good, right?

My favorites. Just, I could just watch a 24-hour webcam of these two interacting. Not in a way that is quite as creepy. be as that sounded, just because I really enjoy spending time with them. Will you be in the dark in your bathroom, Mallory, while you're watching it? Almost certainly. So we are starting with Elron petitioning King Duren on, you know, nobody kneels in Numenor,

but Elrond's going to kneel in Kazadun to get what he needs here, right? Offering an exchange of game and grain and timber from the Albin Forest. He's played settlers of Catan. He knows what you need to do. To get the oar. Gotta get those oar cards. You have to. Dude, can we play settlers next time?

You're in L.A. I love playing settlers. Obviously. Really fun moment where these dwarves are speaking about Elrond in Kuzdil and he understands them and responds back to them. Duran calls Kuzul is the language of the dwarves. Duran calls it Stone Tongue, as far as I know is a show in. invention, unless the captions tell you it's called the Hall of Lore. But I think he said, I think he said Stone Tongue. Is that what you heard? I heard Stone Tongue, though, as you know,

I heard House of Law. So who can say? I definitely heard Stone Tongue. And I like that Doran in his, I like that Elron in his petition here is using his status as a half elf to be a reason why. they can trust in. This has come up a couple times. Like, I was rewatching that sequence where Gil Gallad demands that Elrond tell the story of the origin of Mithril. And he calls him half elf, like, in that moment as he's commanding him. And it just, like, always seems like this othering thing for Elron. And here, Elrond's like, let me use this to my advantage as, like, the politician that I am. I'm an outsider to. I'm not wholly. Like, you can't trust elves, but I'm not an elf. I'm half elf.

And so, like, you could trust me and we can make this work. Doran. I found, King Doran. I'll just, can I just say, I found that kind of strange. Like, I found it both. Tell me. I found it. I had, I experienced a little bit of dissonance with that moment.

I had like two competing instincts in response to it. Because on the one hand, given that this, this plea is in pursuit of forging in a alliance and forging a fellowship that must be built on trust and given the way that mistrust has really has really festered not only inside of certain camps and communities, but certainly across them. I thought, like, yes, I had the same thought about political all around in part because of the reveal we get about throwing the rock competition, the rock breaking competition, and we talked about that in the premiere episode, like, this is, this is all around politicking and using his savviness to achieve his end.

And so that part of it is a play here, certainly. But it just felt a little off on the one hand that he would say, yeah, you're right to not trust my kin as opposed to trying to foster more of a shared understanding. But equally strongly, and I think ultimately more strongly, I had the response that you just sketched out, which is like, distracts for me. It tracks for me that he would do this because, you know, the othering that you're mentioning, including from our very first all-round scene where they tell him only elf lords, he can't go to the council meeting in that look.

Like, stay in your branch ham, make here, that look on his face. But as recently as the reveal, the one that leads to him having to compromise the vow, the oath that he swore to his beloved friend and brother Duren about keeping the me through a secret, when he's when he's talking to Kellebrimbor about it and has learned the true purpose of Gilgalid's guiding hand. And Kellebrunbara is saying to him, like, I tried. I tried to get him to bring you into our confidence. And it's like, cool, you tried. But that ultimately the takeaway in the upshot is that I wasn't. I wasn't brought into your confidence.

And I was used as this pawn. And so there are these competing instincts inside of Elrond as a fellowship forger. And obviously we know ultimately his role in forging a very meaningful fellowship down the road. So I do like it because it's like a part of his journey and his evolution in terms of how he thinks of this. But it made me a little bit sad, too, I guess. Well, I think what we get, and we get this later with Elendial, I think what we're seeing is like some of these key players in the last alliance of elves and men and ors, like that they're not there yet. Yeah. The doubt they have to push through. Absolutely. And you're absolutely right that Elron's not building a solid bridge.

here. He's building a singular rope bridge that is like, you got to go through me to get to the elves because you don't trust them, but you can trust me. And like, again, that's politicking. You shall not. So unless I let you. But that's making himself essential to this arrangement. Yeah. So politicking, right. So King Durin is not high on this proposition, to say the least. Not into it. all. He talks about Aulah and the creation of Dwar's. We're going to talk about that a little bit more later. But his son is completely devastated by this. And Duren says very significantly, delving into the dust beyond the darkness, tempting rock, shadow, rock shadow and mind to bury us all beneath the mountain. I will not risk Dwarven lives to help the elves cheat death. There is, again, trademark.

We're going to talk later about this sort of baked in distress between the dwarves and the elves to, like, back to their very creation. But I love the use. Again, we always want to, like, be on the lookout for very specific language use from Tolkien and from the showrunners here. The use of shadow here, right? When I hear shadow and I think about, and I think about delving deep, you know, you hear, again, I'll say go back to the shadow. You cannot pass to the ballerog. fellowship as well at the council of Elron, Gloin, who is a character that was cut from the films, but is in the books, talks about the way in which the doors were drawn back to Moria.

They abandoned Moria after the Balrog, and then they went back, right? And Gloin says, now many years ago that a shadow of disquiet fell upon our people. Once it came, we did not at first perceive. Words began to be whispered in secret. It was said we were hemmed in a narrow place in that greater wealth and splendor. would be found in a wider world some spoke of Moria. The shadow, of course, where shadows lie.

Like, the shadow is constantly, of course, also Sauron and, like, the influence of evil and the temptation that we get all over the place. So I just like that there. What do you make of Duran the Younger, which is a title I will accept for this character? Using the word, like, the words like drowning. My friend is drowning.

Reaching for me to pull them to shore. Yeah. You expect me to swat his handaway because you're afraid of a bloody rock fall. I found it impossible not to think of Galadriel and Hal Brown there. And a moment that we have seen centrally featured in this show, forging an unlikely alliance, where somebody did not swat a hand away. And what might it mean and where might it lead? You know, I think that one of the show's real strengths,

it comes up routinely for us as we're discussing it, is the through lines and the patterns. And I think in less deft and capable hands, sometimes that stuff can feel heavy-handed when you're trying to so often reinforce a theme or draw these connections. There is such a grace and a poetry to it inside of rings of power that I just like adore.

And across this conversation, whether it's the Papa D language that you just outlined in the way that it makes us think of the Balrog, makes us think of Mordor in the shadows there, this linking of, the very idea of creation to the elements of the earth, these are these recurring through lines. And then here, this idea of somebody reaching out to you in need. And it's like what you said earlier, which I think is a really central thing, not only, certainly in the wider Lord of the Rings universe,

but really across fantasy stories. Like one of the things that we love most about them is when you forge that found family, like when you make that family for yourself and when you find that on your own, and that will obviously come up in the next conversation between the Duren's and this episode in a, like, deeply charged way. Tough. Yeah. When Little D names Elrond, his brother and absolutely enrages his father. But to us, it's this beautiful, beautiful thing.

And we'll talk about that more when we get there. But the other thing that this drowning language made me think of was that that initial opening stretch with Galadriel and Finrod. And the idea of like what is hidden in the depths of the water and maybe what is like masks that you can't see and how that then maps on pretty cleanly to what would be hidden in the depths here inside of the mountain. And these masks and these these coverings and can you heal and repair and restore the grove. And when do you delve into something that you cannot really understand and then what do you unleash? And what's interesting about the, like, when you thinking about clasped hands, the thing that we have to think about, first and foremost, is Galadio and the Halberd, because there's just been so many moments where they've, you know, clasped forearms, essentially. That's, like, been a big thing. But even inside this episode, there is the shot of Norrie's little hand reaching an apple up to the stranger's, like, large, grimy hand, you know? So, like, hands being joined in fellowship and friendship and uneastern. easy alliance and that's our stuff. We're working towards an alliance. How do we get there? How do we

fight through the differences in cultures and all that and differences in, you know, we need a big, bad eye to unite us, I suppose. But I think that what is really interesting about all of this is as we watch this, we're rooting for Elron and Doran. We're rooting, I mean, in theory, I'm rooting for the elves to not, you know, turn to dust on this earth. right? I'm rooting for Alaron and Duren, like these pals, these friends, these brothers. But what's interesting, the dramatic tension as we watch is we know that King Duran is right. As King Duran's like, we can't do this, there will be dire consequences. Even these characters we love like Disa, who are about to get to, right?

Disa bafflingly wearing a gown as she forges an axe. Yes. Disa's wrong. Prince Doran is wrong and that is a wild and interesting thing to watch for us to be rooting for them, to care about them,

and to know, similar to like watching a Sealdor go along. We're like, this is so odd. We know where this is going and it's so odd to watch this. And it's again that like Better Call Saul

good prequel feeling where you feel the doom looming over people watching them, choices and even people you care, not villains, but heroes, make choices that lead them towards a doom. Would you, Mallory Rubin, make stew and Smith in a beautiful, fancy gown the way that Disa has decided to live her life in Kazadun? Certainly not. I mean, as you know, first of all, I would order my stew on DoorDash, but... I do not. If I, if I work, if I work,

to whip up a stew or do some smithin. I would certainly do so in Atleisure, which is also how I podcast and conduct most of my affairs. She's got an apron on, but I'm not satisfied with its coverage of this beautiful, like, beautiful, beautiful, beautiful dress. So we've only seen Disa in one costume. And this is like, oftentimes when we talk about rings of power,

we talk about the fact that we can see the money on the screen. But there's a lot of characters. who Elrod included, like, this feathery shirt that Duran made a joke about in a couple episodes ago, he's been wearing that same feathery shirt for a while now. And I'm like, why don't these characters have costume changes? What's going on? Bronwyn, I mean, Bronwyn having the one blue dress, okay. Like, she lives in, you know, Peasantown, USA, right?

But, like, Disa's a princess of Kazadun. Where is her, like... Why does she only have, like, future Queen Allison, one gown to use? I don't know. I have a lot of questions about it. You already mentioned this exchange where they talk about the lice and the beard of Disa's mother. This is a fun little moment because there was, I don't know if you people listening to this podcast are as online as I am. But there was much Sturman Drang when the promo photos came out.

Adisa, a Dwarven woman, did not have a beard. because there was a big debate about whether Dwarven women in Tolkien actually have beers or not. It is an ongoing debate. It is an ongoing question. The answer appears to be some do. Or maybe Disa just waxes. I don't know. I was going to say, who knows what everyone's personal grooming preferences are?

That's for them to decide. Here's my first cry of the episode, which is Elron coming in. I don't know why he looks so like ingenious. he just like walks in and whirls around and just like looks up at Doran and just like looks so ingenue like, but the wordless communication of it's not going to happen. You got to go. And then the goodbye. And Doran just like weeping.

What like tell me how this how this went for you, Mallory, alone in a room in your bathroom. I was like a puddle. I was just so touched by this. we do not say goodbye, we say. And then what do they say at the exact same time, Joe? Marry. And I love this too because we've heard, as you noted, Elrond speaking stone tongue earlier in the episode.

And now we get this return from Duren where he is using Elron's language to communicate with him. And this, first of all, just this shared, the showing of shared, like, inclination to learn about the other person's culture and world. and inhabit it with them was so lovely and wonderful. And I was deeply moved by it just right there and the shoulder touch and the tears. But then when Elrond says,

it means more than simply farewell. It means go towards goodness. We've had a few moments in this show so far, inside and outside of Wandering Day, where a single line has, I think perfectly encapsulated and summed up what we love about this story and what it is seeking and asking us to strive for and reflect on how to value. And like the idea of inside of that effort to learn about each other and forge that that fellowship and that family, you know,

it's difficult for me to think of too many ideas that are as lovely and, and aspect as go toward goodness, the quest, the adventure, the journey, that hope and that faith, trying, going, doing, doing it together if you can. It made me think a little bit of our preview pod that we did with our pal Brian Cogman, the wonderful Brian Cogman, and when he talked about that far green country and how it can mean so many different things to you and there's something amorphous and intangible about it, but also that that's the beauty of it. And I thought that this achieve something very similar. I of course hit the old Quenia to English dictionary again to look at Namare,

which is really interesting because it's basically like the Elvis aloha. It means you can use it to greet and to say goodbye. That's the other thing that's great about it. A goodbye can be a hello for something else. I love it. But I love that essentially Elron, what Elron's doing here is a little philology lesson. And we've talked before about the fact that Tolkien was a philologist, his love of language is first thing.

So this is we're going to pause and talk about Tolkien and Linkin. because farewell is the common understanding of what Namare means means towards and Marier means goodness. So, like, Elrond's doing a little, like, etymology here as he, as he breaks down this word. Namari is also the name of a song that Galadriel sings, ah, like, gold, fall, the leaves and the wind, long years numberless is the wings of trees. The years have passed, like swift drafts of the sweetmead in lofty halls. Beyond the West, beneath a blue vaults, LaVarda.

It's a lot of farewell. Like, it's a beautiful thing. Fun fact, Led Zeppelin adapted the first line of R.A. for their song Rambelon, which also mentions Mordor and I think Sauron. A lot of Tolkien and Led Zeppelin, of course. But yeah, so, like, Tolkien and language is so interesting because his first gig out of World War I was to work for the OED. And what I love about this is that by the time he went to go work for the OED, the Oxford English Dictionary, they were already on the W's.

So there are some definitions that Tolkien wrote that are in the OED, but you won't find them until you get to the W. So like Walrus was written by Tolkien. So like if he just flipped to the back of the OED and by flip to the back, I mean like to your massive 24 volume set or whatever you have of the OED, you might find it. when he became a professor, he used to start his lectures by like quoting Beowulf in old English. Like he just loved old languages and pulling them apart and their meaning and all that Anglo-Saxon deliciousness. Maui, did you know that?

In high school, I learned, for extra credit, I learned the prologue to the Canterbury tales in the original Middle English. and it then became my like very favorite party trick, except like that's not a very cool thing to do at a party. I think it's cool. Yeah. That's amazing. I hope other people listening also had to memorize the prologue to the Canterbury Tales in Middle English,

but I can still do it. But I just think it's interesting to drill down on Tolkien and like the importance of single words like garden. Like the fact that we could pause and look at how he uses the word. garden, how specifically he uses it. This is how he considers all language. And you see it crop up in stuff like the password at the doors of Doran, like speak friend and enter, the importance of the right word. Or even in like film lines, like, you know, they call it to mine.

Like, what do you call the thing? What is the precise word for it? Do you call it a mine? What's taters? Potatoes, you know, like what like what? My potato shirt. Yeah, I love it. Um, I want to love this is that like,

And the show is engaging in this, right? Like words like Adar, father, that character, like that's, that comes from like the old Gothic language. Attila the Hun is like means little father, Adar, Attila. Like that's, those are the roots that they're working with. And it's that kind of stuff that really underlies for me that this show gets this, Jady and Patrick as creators enjoy the shit on the level that Tolkien does.

They love playing with language in the same way, and it really comes through. Tolkien wrote an essay on inventing his own language called The Secret Vice, and I love that he, like, I don't know, consider this secret vice. There are 90 different languages that he created for Lord of the Rings.

Some of them only have, like, four words, but, like, Quenius and Darin, Kozdulda, the stone tongue that we mentioned, the black speech, like there's a bunch of different invented languages. There's some Tolkien scholars think that Tolkien really only wrote the Lord of the Rings in the first place so that he had a place to put all these languages that he invented. Yes.

Yeah. And he's like, let me, you know, let me give it a home. Let me give it a history. Let me give it a background. But that's his like true love is like making up languages. It's like the language is the seed and it's planting it in the garden of the story. We have this email from Andrew that I really love about. Episode 6, last week's episode, the battle episode, when the orcs in Adar first enter the watchtower only to find it empty, Adar tells the orcs in black speech to search it.

And Ork then commands the horde also in black speech. All you fan out find them. These are translated words on the screen. My heart stopped when I heard the black speech word at the end of this command. It's clearly Gambatul, which means find them, and is used extremely famously in the inscription on the one ring. I'm not going to read this black speech because I don't know how to pronounce it. in the darkness. You know, one ring to roll them all, one room in the bun.

So again, this is just rings of power constantly. Also, Galadro when she whispered to her horse to make it go faster last week, it's the same command that Arwin used to whisper to her horse to get it to the Ford in the Peter Jackson films. So just constantly putting these words in here, give them a moment for pity's sake, like all that sort of stuff. Just constantly playing with the language to link all of this together. And I just thought this is a really good moment to talk about it just because, like, exactly what you said.

I love what you said about this idea that Elron speaks some of the stone tongue, the coastal, the secret language of the dwarves. And that Doren speaks a little quenia back at him. Beautiful. What a beautiful friendship. Duren's sobbing. It's a heart-wrenching, Joanna. Heart-wrenching. Heart-wrenching.

And then. The convenient slide of the Mithriel across the table to land precisely where it needs to. I hope I do play some shuffleboard because this was top tier. That's a great shot. Great shot. Cures the leaf. My question. So now we know the theory, Mithriel could cure, at least cure the blight on this tree.

Why has this not been tried before? Like, why are we doing it now? Why did no one think let's actually just hold up a nugget against a leaf and see if it works? Let's test it out. Yeah. It's a good question. Yeah, it's a good question. As always, we have some notes for the characters.

Most of mine will be reserved for Allendial and will come in the form of, why didn't you go look to confirm if your son was dead? But if this is your note, I think that's a great one. It's a great one. I guess a clue in this direction is the fact that, like, his little linden tree sapling was flourishing underground. I suppose we could have deduced that possibly the mithril being shot through at Cazadune was. helping that tree grow where it shouldn't grow. But yeah, absolutely. Here we are.

All right. Sorry, Dern. It's not just the power of your attentive love, though it is also that. But it's mostly the beautiful. I talked about the visuals of the scene. And I think you know that my favorite visual was a sweaty, tumbled-haired Elrond doing some mining with his pal, Dorn. It's just tremendous stuff.

10 out of 10, no notes. They should always be this hot and sweaty. That's all I have to say about that. Oh, my God. Maybe that's why they're all only wearing one outfit. You know, you need to maintain the sheen. And if you're constantly freshening up and changing, then you can't. You've got to bake in it.

Yeah. As you mentioned, Elam reveals that he threw the rock-breaking contest, which... This was wonderful. Made me feel very smug. This was great. I was winded. This so powerfully made me think of Legolas and Gimley. You know, oh, I'm starting to feel a little, yeah, like a little tingle in my fingers.

Yeah. You're fucking hammered and passed out. And, of course, one of my all time, I know. I just know, as we all do in our hearts and souls, that Legolas fudged his death count at Helms Deep to make Gimley feel that. better. He had to have racked up like 500 kills. We all know it to be true. Search your feelings. The score, the Bear McCrary score, which is constantly engaging with the original Howard Shore score, is like this little light prancing little theme for them here is very Legolas and Gimley having any of their various contests that they have. There's this moment here, this

exchange. Let's hear it, Carlos. I always thought you were might dwarvish for an elf. And you are a rather elvish dwarf, Dorian. Son of Dorian. Grand son. Scoff, if you like, the mightiest thing a dwarfs can do is to be worthy of the name of his father.

We do have our secret names for use, only amongst ourselves. We reveal them only to family, wives, parents, sisters, brothers. You save it, Duren, for the far side. Oh, my God. So we're crying. We're just sweeping on Zoom.

Carlos's camera is off, but I'm going to assume that he's in tears as well because how could you not be? Yeah, his puppy is also crying, I think. Oh, my God. This is, okay, so my brother, my captain. and my king, like, there are so many moments of fellowship and friendship between two men, especially in Lord of the Rings, of course, because there's not that many female characters. And the combination, okay, Carlos just said what I'm about to say.

Carlos says, I just want them to kiss, to be honest. Yes, that is exactly what I was going to say, which is you've got that friendship, but then I also like make out at the same time. And that's how I feel all the time when I watch Lord of the Rings. Yeah, absolutely. I'm like, this is a real connection there. It's a beautiful platonic friendship and also please make out. Like, it's just, it's probable.

What's going in there? Yeah. I ship it. This is one of the most beautiful scenes of the season so far. On the heels of that humor and that charm, the Duren's, before the real tear-jerking moment, Elrond, you know, poking fun at this naming tradition. And then that reply from Duran, that scoff, if you like, being worthy of the name of your father, it was hard not to think about what we've heard Elrond voice about his own father and this

life-defining weight of wondering if he would be proud. Like if you have done things in your own life to be worthy of the mantle that you inherited and how that can be something that you come to resent. as we'll get to momentarily with our Duren's, but also then something that you long for and you seek. That was just another real shared moment of understanding that literally the characters didn't even have to voice. It's just there for us.

We know we can think about Elrond's own life in that way when he is hearing that from Duren and know that he has this ability to appreciate and understand because of his own experience. That's lovely. The way that Duren chokes out that quiet, little Elram, as he is about to tell him his secret name, was so beautiful and tender and so well acted and wonderful.

And that you save it during reply was just incredible. Like the promise. Now, on the one hand, we're trained as viewers when characters make promises to each other. It's like the net start. They usually don't make it to the far side. Never make a promise about the far side, ever. No. But not the comic strip, not the other side.

the war, none of it. Don't joke about the far side. What a lovely thing to try to like build and then hold on to that hope together. You know, we talk about the Balrog and what is lying in weight in the form of shadow, but what is also waiting for you on the other side there in this aspirational form and shape? And for the elves in particular, you know, we talk about their long lives and this idea of the undying lands and the things that they're working toward and like to take a version of that and try to share that.

with somebody else. It's just really, really special. Great scene. Same for the far side is such an interesting phrase that I immediately did that thing where I looked up like, what does this mean in Lord of the Rings? I don't really have a great, a wonderful answer because mostly Tolkien uses it just to mean over there. He uses it a bunch, but mostly just means over there.

There's only like one mystical use of it when Mary's talking about early on the story, Mary says there are various queer things living deep in the forest and on the far side, or at least I've heard so, but I've never seen any of them, but something makes paths. Whenever one comes inside, one finds open tracks, but they seem to shift and change from time to time in a queer fashion. So that's like, that's the most charged version of far side that shows up in the text as far as I could tell. But if you have a different answer, hobbits and dragons at dml.com. all this mining though as we know is very tumultuous and dangerous again we're like maybe don't do this this way slow down um and doran finds this massive cavern that's filled with mythreal that looks like it really supports that origin myth we heard from gel gall and elron before right definitely yeah it feels all true okay and seeing the way that the mithril healed belief also Yeah, it does.

Exactly. It does feel legit. So we got a couple emails about the Mithril origin story because, you know, this has been a very contentious thing in the fandom. So this first one comes from Scott. And Scott says, I've been pleasantly okay with the lore updates surrounding the origins of the Mithril. The thought that specifically occurred to me was that this lore update, that with this lore update, we now can say that Frodo entered Mordor with the light of two of the three cimmerils represented by the vile. of Elendiel's light, Erean Dill's light, and the Mithril shirt that he wore. I found this thought very pleasing and then started wondering if the showrunner's goal was to tie all three simirels to Frodo.

Has it been explored in any of the texts? What magic caused a sting or other elven blades to glow blue in the presence of orcs, or, if you will? What if we find out that the elven blades are quenched in special waters that actually draw light from the missing aquatic simeril? then Frodo would enter Mordor with the light from all three legendary gems. I love this. First of all, I would like to say that I found this thought very pleasing as a beautiful sentence. Just delightful. Very, very Tolkienian.

I think this is awesome. I love this idea. And the idea of Frodo going into the dark with the light of three cimerales on him. Yeah. That's amazing. And another incredibly cool and inventive way that preserves the thing. we know is coming, but can connect these, these threads of this,

this tapestry. I'm into it. What about you? I love it. We don't know the answer about the, the light of the elven blades. These elven blades are from the first, they're old, old blades, right? Not all elven blades glow blue. The only sentence I could find about it was about the glowing blades, being the work of elvish smiths in the elder days,

these swords shone with a cold light if any orcs were near. But no sentence that's like, because we dip them in the shining waters where that third simmer all dropped. So, but what that gives Patrick and J.D. license too is to create their own story

of that as well if they want to. So, brilliant. All right. Richard wrote this really brilliant email that I'm not going to read all of but it connects that Mithril origin story to the story, the biblical story of the tree of knowledge. J.D., when I interviewed J.D. over at VF.,

J.D. says it was like, Tolkien put some stars in the sky and let us make the constellations. Like, that's their guiding principle, right? Is there these little stars, these little marks that they're trying to hit, but they're shaping their story around it. And Richard wrote it and said, like, among the stars of the show, are weaving to fill in the gaps in the second age is Tolkien's Christian underpinnings for his legendarium. And J.D., who is, like, you know, brought up very religious, has talked about, like, the way in which he's examined religious texts, the ways examine the way that religious

texts use something called parallelism, where you tell one story to tell another, right? And so this idea of this tree, we see a Balrog and an elf fighting, good and evil, you know, if that's where you want to put those two categories, like fighting over this tree, the fruit of the tree being the me thrill and the promise of the fruit of knowledge from the tree being long life. That's part of the promise that the serpent makes, like long life and the mithril being the thing that could extend the lives of the elves. And so Richard concludes the email saying, so is there a serpent, Anatar, in the details here as well? Perhaps this is this. applicable parallelism is confirmation that Sauron, the deceiver, is indeed in the details.

Both songs are warnings steeped in a story of the conflict between good and evil, the answer to which will ultimately mean life or death, which answer may be twisted to evil ends by a deceiver, as is the case in both tales. So, how do you feel about it? I love it. I mean, you were always fine with this Mithril origin story. We never had, like, an issue with it. But I think instead of rejecting something whole cloth,

I really like the thought that these two e-mellers and other emailers we've gotten, I've put into like, okay, if this is the story they're going with, like what are, what's some of the deeper meaning we can, we can mine for here. So mind for. Hopefully not too greedily or too deep. Yeah, I love that.

That description of the Elven Warrior poured all his light into the tree to protect it, the Balrog, channeled all his hatred into the tree to destroy it. forging of their conflict, a power. Power! A power! All right, Elron gets kicked down on his ass because King Duran's here and he's like, no.

It's tough. What did I say? Go. He looks very sad, but maybe a little hopeful. I don't know. And then we get this showdown between King Duran and Prince Dorn. He kept that Mithril Nugget, so he left with a souvenir. He does have one small nugget, one nug.

I have probably better for another ring, but some questions about what use that might be put due on his next journey. You know what? Great, great question. Um, one, what can, what can, what harm can one little mug do? Okay. Mallory, take us through this fight between King Duren and Prince Dern. I texted you after watching this, this shook me to my core. This was, first of all, just incredibly acted. I mean, these, these lines are so, deliciously read and enunciated. It's just incredible. The entire speech that we get here from King Duren about his baby, his son, his child, sickly, this fear would he last?

And then this moment, first of all, he's describing him like he's holding him like a petrified dragon egg in front of a fire just waiting for him to. hatch, right? Like, there was something lovely about that, caring for him, tending to him not giving up. And then there's this moment where he explains to his son that he looked down upon his face one day

and saw this gray-bearded future king and told, the old mom not to worry. The occurrence here of like another prophecy and then what a character does putting stock into some sort of of the future was like difficult not to think about given the way that that's manifested across character sets.

Dürgen's response to that, how do you expect me to move mountains father if you fall to pieces when I dig a single hole you speak of greatness for me but you suffocate in me any ambition, any desire, any thought that does not originate in you? There are so many things that I loved about that. One, it's just like we don't necessarily think of Lord of the Rings as a coming of age tale, but in many quintessential respects it is, because a lot of the character arcs and storylines center on this idea that you build that trust, yes, but also like nobody can pave the way for you. You have to carve it for yourself, and then you find other people

to walk it with you. But like whether we think of Bilbo or Pippin or any number of other characters, this idea of like finding your own courage is very central to the story. And I think that this is very much of a piece. Like, how can you find your own future if someone else is just saying this is what it has to be? And it's that choice and destiny idea then, too. The hobbits are very childcoded. You know what I mean? Like Tolkien put them in the story to represent his children essentially. So like, we're going to talk about CS Lewis a little bit, but like CS Lewis and Tolkien were working in tandem and like CS Lewis literally puts like the Pevensey children in Narnia. like that's that story

Mary and Pippin and Frodo and Sam are essentially children heading off into a wider world and coming back literally tall literally taller you know what I mean like literally grown up so yeah oh god during this was a tough one rips the collar

off of his son and throws it to the ground the collar has runes on it but it says Duren the Deathless on it, which is the title associated like in the lore, Doren

is just a title passed down from instead of like the actual name of King Duren, Prince Duran, etc. But basically saying, you know, to call back immediately to that thing that Doreen told Elron, like, you know, there's no pride greater than

living up to the honor of your father's name and for his name to, for his father to rip that name off of him. Yeah. And throw it into the ground. and essentially, you know, according to what Disa says afterwards, disinherit him. This is like, you know,

you made a great point earlier about how we have to think about what we know the future and the story holds. And so like our instinct as viewers in this moment is to kind of rebel against what King Duren is espousing here. I think especially because, not only because it's kind of cruel

and stifling, even if it comes from some like protective desire, But like, it's such a, it's in direct opposition, really, to what he voiced to his son a couple episodes ago about, like, intuition and how powerful that is. And then he's saying, like, your intuition here is just not something that I am ready to abide. Again, because I want to protect our people, but even so, like, also he's just like the elves, their fate is sealed. That's not on us. And that's like a pretty foul thing inside of this universe where reaching across borders to help your fellow is. at the heart of what is like good and worthy and worth striving for.

Like when the thing that finally incites that response of ripping off the breastplate is what we talked about earlier when Duren says, Elrond is as much of a brother to me as if he'd been fired in my mother's own womb. And his father screams, how dare you, how dare you, how dare you invoke your mother's memory to defend your decision to betray your own kind? I was thinking of Baylon Greyjoy there and like him screaming at Theon. not to name Rob Stark brother. And where, what path does that send Theon down?

You know? Like if you were forced to choose between two camps, two families, rather than being encouraged to try to nurture that bond, that can be a really harmful thing. But then we have to hold on to that idea in conjunction with how, honestly, like, we love Dern and we love Disa, like kind of alarming. it was to hear Disa's speech to him at the end of the episode, which is like, great pep talk,

love a strong supportive marriage. Also, this has a lot of delve too greedily and too deep, and frankly, like, a lot of my precious energy in it. No matter how many crests he hurls the floor, someday this will be your kingdom, during the fourth, yours and mine, together we will rule this mountain all others before our time is done, that Mithro belonged to us together one day we are going to dig. Like, D.C. We love her. But I wrote Lady Macbeth in my notes. Like that's what, that's the vibe she's giving off here.

Because we know that to dig is the wrong move here. This all wraps up with old, you know, old King Doran himself, throwing the leaf into the mithril cavern. And as it goes down, already I'm thinking of the opening of two towers as the leaf is going down through the caverns of Kazadune. And as you saw Gandalf fall and fall and fall and fall, what do we find at the bottom of the cavern there, Mallory Rubin? Fucking Belrog.

That's a fucking Balrog. My God, it's the thrilling moment. Just delightful. Don't care that it had been teased in like 9,000 trailers and tweets. I was delighted. It was so funny. There's this like Instagram ad that's just sort of like mortal will rise and it's the Balrog and I was like, oh yeah, that's coming this week.

Okay. Anyway, Balrog's here. To be continued. It was great, Joe. You know what it made me think of a little bit? John taking Danny into the cave at Dragonstone to show the wealth and the expanse of the dragon glass, but then also you go just a touch further on what's there, this morning, these drawings of the walkers and the doom that awaits.

This competing instinct, like you're digging and forging to try to help, but then where does that help lead you to? Or that desire to protect and fight lead, and how can it lead you astray? Like, very of a piece with Galadriel's arc, too. So there's a lot of that there. And like you said, I like that because we know certain characters make it out. So there has to be tension in other ways. And you get that really here.

All right. Speaking of Galadriel, let's go to before door to No, Bore, aka the artist formerly known as the Southlands. Did you think of Jack Shepherd and Lost when we opened on an eyeball? Oh, the eye. It's opening, of course. I'm always thinking about stupid Dr. Jack Shepard. And is like, again, this is incredible. There's a horse on fire. There's bodies everywhere. There's ash everywhere. It just looks so amazing. I wrote the exact same thing in my notes that you texted me, which was Galadryl's first instinct, just call for Ellen Dillon Halbrin. Oh, my God. What relatable contact.

I did. I text you, girl, same. And you were like, this is the stuff. first thing I have in my notes. It really was. Unfortunately, instead of Elendiel and Halibrand, she gets Theo, but I got to say, best Theo episode by far. This is an inspired pairing. I was so into this, this duo, which was shocking to me. It was really compelling.

Theo, okay, so again, again, I want to pay close attention to language here because, like, they're in the red and they're in the ash, and he asks her why they, like, the, meaning the Uruk, did this. And she says to make it their home, they're Shadowland. The use of Shadowland pinged for me, not because I'm a massive CS Lewis scholar because I'm not, but because there's a great Anthony Hawkins film called Shadowlands. It's about CS Lewis that I have seen. So I was like, okay, why did they call that?

I never bothered to look into why they called that movie Shadowlands, but it's a play and a movie stuff like that about C.S. Lewis. But Lewis and Tolkien, close close friends, they had a literary group called The Fainterling. distinctlings, which is one of my favorite things ever. I used to have a book club called The Faintest Inklings. Like, love it. But farewell to Shadowlands is the title of the last chapter in the last Narnia book, The Last Battle. So on the last page of the Narnia story, C.S. Lewis, this is a real twist, honestly. C.S. Lewis writes, there was a real railway accident, said Aslans softly, your father and mother and all of you are, as you used to call it in the Shadowlands

dead. The term is over. The holidays have begun. The dream has ended. This is the morning. And as he spoke, he no longer looked to them like a lion, but the things that began to happen after were so great and beautiful that I cannot write them. And for us, this is the end of all stories. And we can most truly say that they all lived happily ever after. But for them, it was only the beginning of the real story, all their life on this world and all their adventures in Narnia had only been the cover and the title page. Now at last they were beginning chapter one of the capital G great, capital S story, which no one on earth has read, colon, which goes on forever, colon, in which every chapter is better than the one before. So, I mean, I don't know that I knew this.

Like the pevensey kids, except for Susan, because she discovered lipstick, but the pevency kids, and all the other kids that ever went to Narnia all die in a train accident at the end. I think I never finished the Chronicles of Narnia is what I discovered. And they don't go to Narnia. they go to heaven and Aslan becomes what we knew he was, which is Jesus essentially. And it's a very Christian ending for a very Christian story. But that use of shadow land means just like earth, I guess. But Shadowlands the story of that Anthony Hopkins film, Anthony Hopkins plays C.S. Lewis is about the crisis of faith that C.S. Lewis had towards the end of his life because of his wife's illness.

So it's a sort of like this dark realm, this. disconnect from the light from the faith, all that sort of stuff. I don't know. Do you have any Shadowlands thoughts or feelings or CS Lewis thoughts or feelings? I had a great meal once at the pub where CS Lewis and Tolkien used to meet and talk about stories and I was like, just the steak and ale pie is delicious. We'll have a crisp cider and this is one of the crowning achievements of my life. I would love to get back to England one day soon. You know, when you mentioned questioning faith. I mentioned that a bit earlier with Nori, and we can save this for a couple minutes down the road if you want, but I do think that was very present in this episode, this idea of questioning

faith. And like, I loved hearing Galadriel and Theo talk about it because one of the things that we've been tracking closely across episodes is Galadryl's increasing self-awareness. And, like, when she is sharing a lesson that she has, like, only pretty recently been able to learn for herself. And there was a lot of that in their conversations in addition to just some delightful fellowship, you know, Peter Jackson trilogy, visual parallels where I'm like they're just hiding under this tree root like our pals were from the Nazcaul. And also, I can't tell you how badly I wanted that approaching orc to shout man flesh when they asked what he smelled. Alas, he'd said ash. So that was disappointing. But we hold on to our dreams when we can.

When Theo says, my home is gone, where's the design in that? Galadriel says, I cannot yet see it. And this was on the heels of her saying, there are powers beyond darkness at work in this world. Perhaps on days such as this, we have little choice but to trust to their design and surrender our own. And that is a sentiment that is so deeply steeped in religious faith.

Yeah. There's a plan that's bigger than us that we can't know, right? And in episode three, Galadriel said this thing to Hallibrand where she says, ours is no chance meeting, not fate nor destiny, nor any other words men use to speak the forces they lack the conviction to name. Ours is the work of something greater. So again, that there's a bigger plan here. We have to surrender ourselves to.

There's this concept. And again, shout out to Professor Correoles and the Tolkien professor for two. teaching me about this. It's called Estelle, and it's this Tolkienian philosophical concept about that, sort of that high hope. When Sam sees the light in Mordor, it's a complex philosophical concept from Elvish thought it means trust or faith, but it's bigger than, I guess, what men are capable of, was Galadriel's point when she was talking to Hallibrand about that.

So, yeah, surrendering yourself to that. And I think that what we're seeing in Galadriel is someone who has learned so much from just the end of last episode to this. The explosion in the volcano taught her. It was a rude awakening for her, a big moment. And I think when she sort of chastises Theo for, she says, when I was your age, there was no such things as work. and he says good and she chastises him. That is such a huge difference from the wild shit she was saying to Adar at the end of last week's episode, right?

Right. And I think, first of all, we're going to run out of time, but I could write a dissertation on how I feel like this Theo Galadrylian thing is very much the final act of Into the Woods, which is Stephen Sondheim's great musical about fairy tale characters traveling through our wasteland. there's this song No One is Alone and the lyrics in that song is about the lessons

that these fairy tale characters have learned witches can be right giants can be good you decide what's right you decide what's good and talking about how they have their own point of view

they have got people on their side like someone is on our side someone else is not while we're seeing our side maybe we forgot they are not alone And I think that's something really smart that rings of powers doing with these orcs. We got a bunch of emails about this about Adar as a character who is painting a, what's so wrong about wanting a homeland for your people?

Maybe don't kill a bunch of elves and Southlanders and, you know, like, destroy their lives in order to do so. But I love this email we got from Declan who said, Galadriel stands about orcs in episode six. is genocidal, but it's also pretty much the official in-universe stance on orcs. What Adar's speech did was remind me of the origin of dwarfs. This goes back to what we were going to say earlier. Dwar's weren't in the plans of the creator, but were an imitation by Aole of the children of Erru, like a bad Prometheus, but they had no sentience as they lacked true fire or creation, a copy of a copy kind of thing.

But Aru looked kindly on Aolet as a kind of well-meaning, talented idiot son who had played with his dad's tools and gave the dwarves true life. Though he couldn't rid them of their love of rocks and gems and their jealousy of elves, they are baked in. Tolkien on race, yikes. But one aspect is that the envy between his major races, elven, men, and dwarves was designed, baked in, and kind of out of control. Maybe that says nothing about his politics or view of the human condition.

Maybe it says everything, but it's the world he created, racism based on inherent racial differences built in. The orcs, as far as I've read, never get a sympathetic read. But it's interesting, isn't it? The idea of a homeland for orcs. Their basic right to exist, not as slaves. This kind of thinking wasn't part of Tolkien's vision, but it can be part of ours. It may seem to try to have a show explore the sympathetic background of classic villains,

but in Lord of the Rings world, it's truly revolutionary. I think that's what they're going for with the reveal that the kinsling of villager is upsetting. They are lost, but it isn't any worse than killing orcs. Maybe that's where they are leading us. Ultimately, all slang is kin slang. This would be the big swing that the show actually takes nuance, that it ultimately fits a not parable for World War I. Kinslaying encouraged by the powerful war is waste.

Power-hungry selling soldiers in a human grocery store are what so civil about war. Anyway, we got a ton of emails about this idea of sympathy for the orcs and how rings of power could be a show that both reveres its source, material and is maybe criticizing it at the same time. What do you, what do you think of that, Mallory? Oh, boy. That's an interesting one. So a few, a few thoughts. I think that like this also connects to another, another topic that is very present and central in the conversation that Galadriel and Theo have, which is like intention. And again, doubt. And blame. Yeah. And blame, which,

which goes across the storylines, O'Lendiel blaming himself, you know, saying later, I should never have pulled the elf on board, Galadriel, looking down at the encampment with this real dread of like these people are not going to be happy to see me. This, it wasn't your fault.

Yes, it is exchange that Galadriel and Theo have. And one of the things that Galadriel says is, well, cannot be known, hollows the mind, fill it not with guesswork. And I think one of the things I really love about, this version of collateral is that so many of the things that she says are to me and again everyone can have and should have their own

response to this like clearly wrong and so dogmatic and rigid and this connects to that discussion of a steel before too and like one of the things that I love about that of course is like that's also Aragorn's name when his identity is masked and he's living in hiding with Elrond like to have his name

be hope. And so you have this beautiful thing, like this idea of faith as a source of, faith and trust as a source of hope for the future, that you don't have to give up. And then, in fact, finding a way to maintain that is central. And that's a lot of what Galadriel is saying to Theo here. And like, when she says to him, because he's trying to assume responsibility for this, I gave a power to the enemy. She says, some say that is the way of things, but I believe the wise also look upon what is in our hearts. And this was not in yours. Do not take the burden of this day upon your shoulders, Theo, you may find it difficult to put down again. Like, she's giving him the put up your sword, you know, that like the other side of the exchanges

that she's had before. And so much of that comes from her own growth on the one hand in her own reflection. I found myself thinking of like the cap, the cap Tony, uh, rift in civil war and caps the safest hands are still our own idea and how like overtly tyrannical and fascist and scary that would be if we heard that from so many characters, especially superpowered ones, but how because it's Steve Rogers were like, yeah, exactly. And this idea of intention and like which characters get to make decisions like that. And so on the one hand, that faith can be this beautiful, nurturing, guiding thing. It can give you comfort and purpose and meaning.

And also it is true that you can lose yourself in it. And that if you think there is this grand design that is at work and this thing you're moving toward, you can use that as a justification to unleash something. unholy on other people. And so I think that that complexity needs to be centered in the story. And I'm glad that that's happening. Yeah. At our similar to Kilmonger, we're like, we get your point of view, but we cannot ride

with you on the way that you are going about your plan, right? Okay. Really quickly before we roll on from Gladrily and Theo, once again, a surprisingly great duo in this episode, I think, is Theo asking her, she's lost any kids. And this is a huge moment, right? She mentions her brother, which we know about. But then she also brings up something that book readers and film lovers know that Galadryl's straight up married. Her husband's name is Caliborne.

She said Calaborn was his name. We met in a glade of flowers. I was dancing. He saw me there. The war seemed so far away then. This is a huge thing because the meeting. And then she basically says he went off to fight. I haven't seen him since.

So as far as Gladwell knows, Caliborne is dead, I suppose. We know he's, like a Sildor, we know he's not. So that's interesting. But she thinks he is, which might still allow her to fuck Halbrand. And as I also texted you, I assume that's what she means when she said that wound needs selfish medicine. Let's go. I love this for you, Mallory. And I hope you get everything you desire in the finale.

But I do want to shout out real quickly. no recorded meat cute for Galadriel and Teleborns just they met and they fall in love. So this idea that she was dancing in a meadow, a glade of flowers, this is borrowed from the lay of Luthian. Once again, I must protest the fact that Vigo Mortensen singing the lay of Luthian was cut from the theatrical edition of Fellowship the Ring, but you can see it in the extended edition. But as the lay of Luthian, which is the story of Barron Luthian goes, that she was

was dancing there to a pipe unseen and the light of stars was in her hair and in her Raymond's glimmering. He peered between the hemlock leaves. He saw in wonderflowers of gold upon her mantle and her sleeves. And then she heals him. He feels healed by seeing her dancing. What's really beautiful about this is that this is a story from Tolkien's own love story with his wife, Edith, that in 1917 when he was, he got like trench fever, whole. thing, World War I, he was in a hole, not the most idyllic spot in all of England, but he's in hall. And he has this memory of her dancing in a hemlock grove. And he later wrote to his son Christopher, 1972, he wrote, in those days her hair was raven, her skin clear, her eyes brighter than

you have seen them, and she could sing and dance. And so he gave Barron and Luthian these star-cross lovers. We've talked about how they put Barron and Luthian on their gravestones. He gave them this meat-cute origin story that is one of his fondest memories of his wife. And this is what J.D. and Patrick have given to Galadriel and Calaborn here, which is you know what? Quite beautiful. Even if she does end up fucking Alvran on the road to Lyndon. All right. What do you want to say about a sealed or Nella and Deal and Valendil and everything that happens here? And poor Queen Muriel. Oh, my God. Yeah. First of all, RIP.

to your guy. Untama. Brutal. Okay. I just asked me a question, but I just want to say really quickly. This volcano explodes, and my thought was no one was going to die. And then the episode opened, and we see a bunch of dead people. So I was like, oh, and then I started doing TV watching math.

And I was like, yeah, but like none of our characters are going to die. And I was like, okay, like one unimportant character is going to die. And it's untamo. Like, who had dies early written all over from the beginning, to be honest with you? And I'm usually very angry when a lot of people die, but none of our characters die. Like Battle of Winterfell sort of vibes. But, like, um... Joanna!

I know Jora dies. You don't mean that. I know. Oh, my God. I'm sorry. Anyway. Oh, my God. But the way they roll it out, the cost that we do see,

Miriel lose her sight, they think Yiseled or is dead. They don't check, though. It's really concerned about Bronwyn and a rondeer. Like, it's, for some miracle, it worked for me in this episode. Anyway, sorry, go ahead. What are you saying? Yeah, the biggest question I actually had was how, given that everybody's in the same little place there,

Colladriel and Theo ended up breaking off. And being so separate far away from everybody else. But because it gave us that surprisingly delightful little pairing there, I was okay with it. So a couple things on the allendial front. You know, we've chatted a lot already about blame and to see the way that his bitterness and his regret is seeping in. And some of that is something that he feels for himself, clearly. but we feel the force with which that is emanating off of him, the way that he says Galadriel's name to Mariel as she approaches.

It is just dripping, dripping with derision. And their quick chemistry and understanding and shorthand with each other was one of the keys to this alliance unfolding in the first place, which is, of course, the source of his regret, right? If he hadn't reached out, like he says, brought on the ship, that's another hand swatting away, a sure moment there as well too. But like it manifested in some interesting ways, for example.

I was really struck by the fact that like he is, we see that Barrick is in a real state. Now, of course, we know we had this lovely scene last week about how this bond between horse and rider, we know that Barrick can sense unlike everybody else that Sealedore is alive. And he's like, I'm going to go pull a breako, right? How did Elendiel calm Barrack last week? And to the point where he elicited this like, can you teach me, this real bridge moment between father and son, he whispered in elvish to him, doesn't think to try that here.

And I thought that that really neatly summed up the way that he is distancing himself from something that he now views as a threat. And of course, he was a rarity in Numenor for not feeling that way. that's like a very sad and tragic shift in loss inside of this episode. The way that he like turns around and is just looking out into the distance weeping when Muriel professes that they're coming back. That they're coming back. And that was like a very cool speech and declaration of intent from from Mariel. Poor, poor blinded Mariel.

You have some thoughts on blindness? Yeah. Because as far as I know. And no. just true. She's not blind in the text, right? So I don't know if this blindness is going to last or not. But I was just curious, like, why they would blind, like what is going on with the blindness here? And there's a few instances of blindness in Lord of the Rings for Frodo, Mary, and Pip, and they all are connected to encountering the Nasgul, essentially. So there is a sort of, like, mystical. I mean, we saw the embers go into her eyes. So this isn't, like, mystical blindness.

but there is this sort of like connected to evil, connected to mortar, mystical blindness that happens in Lord of the Rings. But I'm curious, what, like, what did it pick for you? Blindness, her blindness here. Well, I think like a couple different things, you know, given how interesting Mariel's own relationship to prophecy and to visions, yeah, vision and destiny and like what you, what you see about the future has been, there's something like symbolic. and poetic and apt about that,

like putting so much stock in what they had glimpsed in the seeing stone and then having this moment where she thinks finally that she is doing this thing to ensure avoiding this outcome and then her father says her, don't go. Like all of their way to do is darkness. Now here we are. She does, this is like literalized, right?

In multiple respects for her individually, this personal loss and change. And then obviously more broadly for the Southlands. But like so many. characters across stories have a moment like this where they are tested in some way. If you lose, and of course the episode is called the eye, and of course that makes us think of Sauron, but I think that there are so many different ways that the idea of like sight and seeing manifests across this episode. We open on Galadriel's eye. We have this like I like scorch of the earth

with the volcanic rock, et cetera, et cetera, on and on the examples go. Maria loses our sight. Papa, Papa Dee even says, there's the, the Disa says like his eyes too dim to see when they're when they're talking about King Dern, et cetera. So, like, I was thinking of a couple things. I was thinking of Aria and her faceless man training and being robbed of her sight and the way that, like, like, how necessary that is to unlock a different way of thinking and a different kind of enhanced reliance on other senses and other understanding. And I was thinking too of Canaan, our guy Canaan Jarrett from Star Wars Rebels.

And the way that the loss of his sight and everything, that unfolds on Malacore leads to initially this not only pain, but this real separation, but how, like, ultimately it is a pathway through his training with Bendu, et cetera, to a different kind of site and a different enhanced view on his direct role in shaping events. And so, like, I'm curious, you know, to your point about whether this will be temporary, I'm really curious because I could see it going either way. But I think even if it is a temporary thing, there's a chance for this to unlock something fairly seismic

about the way Muriel thinks about her role in the story and Numeror's role more broadly. I like the idea that maybe she can still see with the Palantir, like she can see prophetically, but she can't see physically with her eyes anymore. And, you know, in the Odyssey, in Greek lore, one of the most famous prophets, Thereseus' blind prophet.

Like, you know, blindness and prophecy, often go hand in hand. That's really interesting. We're going to talk just very briefly about Barak, Isielder's horse. This has to make us think about Brago, Aragorn's horse in the Two Towers. Absolutely.

Also knows that Aragorn isn't dead and goes to find him and bring him back. That's a film invention. That's a Peter Jackson invention. So what I love is, like, that Jadian Behn's. Patrick are obviously calling back to that. The writers of this episode are obviously calling back to that.

But it's not to the text. It's to the movies. And this is just like all part of what's in the sauce for the Rings of Powers. Like we're not just citing the text in minutia, which we are, but we're also like touching on these movie only things. Like you mentioned the cowering of the hobbits under the, under the branch as the Black writers ride past. Just a few more things before we're done here.

Orondier and Bronwyn, their happy little family. with Theo, they're going to a numinorian colony named Pilargear. And if you thought that had something to do with Gondor, ding, ding, ding. Yep. Gold star for you. Polargear is the port city at the base of Gondor. You might remember it from the Peter Jackson films as the place where the Corsairs are, which is a regrettable, one of many regrettable racial incidents in the Peter Jackson films.

The Corsairs are there. Ergorne, Legaleson, Gimley show up. And the Corsairs are like, you in one army? And they're like, this giant ghost army motherfucker and the king of the dead and all the green ghosties take over the ships. That's Pilargas. So that's where Bronwyn and Orondia are going. It's a little bit of a timeline fudge that there's a numinorian colony already there. But like, that's fine.

That's what's happening. We're going to the bottom, the base of Gondor and to Merckwood, fun times for all of us. What do you want to say about Halbrand that you haven't already said about elvish medicine? and the very Jesusy wound that he has on his side. You know, he has that the sigil that was on his pouch. They've got like a nice poster. How did they make that? Behind him and just like ripping off magic guy, blacklight wall hangings for his dorm room.

Loved it. Where did that come from? Yeah. Once again, deeply disturbed by the like chanting. The parting of the throngs and the worshipful chanting. It's like, oh, boy, the realms of men fell under the sway of Morgoth and then Sauron. Couldn't see this coming. They just can't wait.

Can't wait to break out into chance and worship someone who they don't know at all, at all. We've never met him, and they made him a poster and gave him a chant. This is fine. He's going to Galadryl to Lyndon. that would be fine to meet Gilgalit and I probably Calibur Moore and I'm sure it'll all be fun. I like that Theo tries, it's very sweet that Theo tries to give the sword back to Galadriel. She tells them to keep it.

Their whole thing reminds me a lot of Aowen and Mary or maybe even Gandalf and Pippen, just this sort of like, she's like, we'll make a soldier of you yet kind of thing. He calls her commander. It's really beautiful. How Brandon is watching all of it with a great deal of interest. And then Theo Deodigieg. clear the strengths of the Soutlanders sword is aloft. That's where we leave

them. Troubling. Yeah. Last and at least, Adar and Mordor, the Chiron changes from Southland to Mordor. Could have done about this. I really wish it had said. I know. I didn't need it. We got it, I thought.

But if they were going to do that, maybe they could have said it to say before Dore or no Mordor, just as a nod to your genius. But they just went with straight Mordor. So, you know. You have a character who could draw out every single syllable for 10 minutes. Like if you do feel the need to say it or put it right there on the screen,

let Adar whisper it to us and give us chills. Hardor. I think it's totally fine that the episode ends with one group of people chanting for Hal Brand and the other group of people chanting for Adar. Hell, hell. Not at all worrying. Totally fine. At all.

Oh, we got this great email from Ryan that I'm not going to read entirely, but just essentially Ryan was like, hey, I noticed the map was super different and rings of power and I was fine with it. But what is kind of cool is that after Mount Doom exploded and Waldraig used the bow air to drain the lake and all this sort of stuff and the various cities that were on there were wiped out and the tower fell. He's like, they put the map exactly where it should be now. Like they erased their footsteps.

Completely brilliant, you know? they wiped all their changes off the map. Here we go. All right. So that is, that's it for the deep dive. Just a swift two hours. Lots of the juts of Easter eggs and references. There were a ton in this episode.

Pick one favorite one, Mallory. Oh, pity's sake, easily. There were a lot of great ones, but that was just like a delight, an absolute delight. What about you? I'm going to go with juicy sweet. Yeah. Also wonderful. Actually, to be really honest to you, it's Galadryl and Theo under the tree hiding from the orcs, the Uruk.

But that was pretty great. All right. So this is Ring 2. Conspiracy en masse or Weekly Who's That Guy, Best Thoughts and Guess is. So get out of here. You don't want to hear us talk about what we're about to talk about. Halbrand's going to Lyndon, Mallory. I'm concerned.

Joanna, I'm concerned. I am concerned. How about you? While a bunch of people were like, how exactly is how about it's supposed to be sour on? If he still has to like seduce Calvin Moore and Gil Gallet, well, all it took was a massive wound in his side. Did he do that to himself? Like, if he is sour on. By the way, no one saw him suffer that wound.

We just get this story about who he was discovered by the Southlanders on the side of the road with this festering wound. suspicious. He's once again also like ringed in fire on his sickbed, just surrounded by little eyes of flaming candles. Yep. We got a ton of emails from people pointing out that like, you know, we flipped our lid about the bind language from Hallibrand in last week's episode. A bunch of people pointed out that in episode two when Galadryl and Halliburin are trying to survive the storm on the raft. She says, bind yourself to me. So the binding goes. into a sex dungeon immediately. What do you think they're safe for it would be?

Ourok. Okay. Adam, we got an email from Adam who has a great sort of TV literacy reason why this has to be Halibrand here, right? Okay. So he says the reason, basically I believe Halibran is Sauron is because of that little moment when Adar asked Halibran, who are you? Who are you? As he is walking out of the room.

Hallibrand pauses but doesn't answer and walks out. The showrunners are heavily leaning into the question of Halperin's identity, as we all are. And this moment means that his identity is something that can be revealed. And this is why he can't be the witch king or the king of the dead, as I've seen online. The witch king is not an identity that can be revealed. Rather, it's something that someone will become. The witch king is a human king that will be corrupted by a ring of power. But his identity before that is not significant.

So if Halberman was like, my name is Roger. We're like, Roger, no. King Roger becomes the witch king, you know? Okay. So the end of this email reads, for the answer to Adar's question to have impact, it will have to be someone we've heard of that really leaves only one option that I'm aware of.

It's Sauron. Have you out of blood? Or bust for me. Great email. On the Sauron front, do you want to read these quotes that J.D. and Patrick gave to T.H.R. about the state of the Sauron speculation here? Sure. First of all, Google this cover if you haven't.

I got like. like genuinely and sincerely I want us to recreate this pose, Joe, for our next house of our team photo. Who are you, JD or Patrick? I think you got to be JD. JD is doing like a grand sort of flourish move. Patrick's doing like the thinking man face. I think I can do the like thinking man face, but I leave the flourish to you. Oh, God.

Okay. Penciled me on the next time one of us is in the other city. We need to get you a great coat. Oh, we just use the bathrobe. I was going to say we need to give you a great coat because JD is a great coat. But you can just use the bathroom. It's like a pale blue. Yeah.

It'll work. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Quote, it would be very tempting to make the first season of this show, the Sauron show, capitalized. Very villain centric, McKay says. The quote continues. But we wanted that level of evil and complexity of evil to emerge out of a world that you're invested in.

Not because evil is threatening it immediately. We wanted you to fall in love. again with Middle Earth. We wanted you to understand and relate to the struggles that each of these characters are having before we test them in a way they've never been tested before. It's another Tolkien thing, where when a shadow spreads, which is part of what is happening in our show, it affects everyone's relationships, Payne says. Even Frodo and Sam, their best friends in all of Middle Earth, yet they started to mistrust each other because that's a manifestation of that shadow.

So having an audience suspect this person or that person could be saran is drawing them into that thing where the shadow is overcoming all of us and making us suspicious of each other. Yes. Love it. Brilliant. Yes. I mean, we know it's Halberin, but brilliant. Like, great stuff from J.D. and Patrick.

Oh, God. Because a lot of people are like, should this really be a mystery box show? And I love that J.D., especially here, is underlining the way in which our suspicion of Sauron is very much like when Frodo tells Sam to go home. Anyway, meanwhile, the cultists definitely really seem to think that the stranger is Sauron. So I don't agree with them, but they really seem to think that he's Sauron, right? Like, that's what... Here's my only question about that, because I think that has seemed probable.

The way that they pluck the flower, like I found myself wondering, do they think that he's a threat to Sauron? That he is a character, a magic wielder, who is capable of pushing the shadow back of keeping it at bay. Lehmaboodoo. Interesting. Very interesting interpretation. I love it. All right. Our next question is, how will Caliborne play into all of this?

Mallory would like Calibor to- Keep him on the sidelines. Stay away. I'm sorry. Like, at least for a little while longer. Do we need him yet? He could show up in the finale. That feels awfully swift on the heels of her being like bot B.

BT Dubs. I have a husband. But I do think him showing up at some point to sort of like spoil her fling, whether or not she follows through with it in Halibrand or not. But like, spoil this foundational thing that she's bringing or whatever. It's classic Caliborne. What a drip move from a drip guy. A drip king. However, we should say that Caliborne, like, he fights the sack of Aregian when Sauron comes to take Aregian.

Caliborne fights in that. He narrowly escapes with Elrond. So, like, you know, him showing up to get out of there with Elrond feels important. Later, I love this. I've forgotten this, that later, the reason that Galadriel and Caliborne moved to Laugh-Lorean is because the necrum has settled in Merkwood, which is ripe by Laughlorian. So, like, even their decision to settle in Laughlorian is connected to Sauron. Like, Galadryl constantly making moves and reaction to Sauron.

Very interesting. Hard to shake an ex sometimes. Yeah. What if you said to Adam, hey, my ex-boyfriend has moved in to Mesa Verde. Can we move? I don't know. I just made up a place that sounded like it was in Southern California. He probably wouldn't care if the reverse unfolded, I would file for divorce.

Great. Love a double standard. The last thing I'll say here, this is in Ring 2 because I guess we're kind of, I don't know. What belongs in Ring 2 is a constant question for us. But we got this great email from Nick from the Keynotes podcast about the musical theme that has been cropping up for Calibrand Moore and then also for the Mithra. Yeah. This is tremendous. Yeah.

So there's this little, and I went back and listened and it's true, all of it. There's a little musical motif we hear. The Jedi were real. Oh, my God. There's a little musical motif that plays when Calabrimor first shows up in Lyndon. Basically, like, what he's talking about is, you know, his grandfather. Anyway, Nick wrote, Bear McCurry said there's a theme developing for the one ring and or the rings of power themselves. and I'm pretty confident this is it.

It's possible we're hearing it in its infancy, and it will grow to something more big and memorable. I think right now it's being used as a sort of seduction-slash-ambition theme, the dwarves delving to greedily, Kel Brimbor wanted to be like his grandfather, the same kind of instincts that will lead to the manipulation of the rings. I love this. Love a musical clue.

So thanks to Nick. You think that nugget of me thrill is going right in the forge? Oh, yeah. That's a ring, if ever I sell it. Has to be. That's just enough for a ring, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. I mean, it could be enough for two. I don't know. Maybe you could stretch it. And then, yeah, your business. Three, maybe? I don't know. All right.

Last but not least, we're diving into the Forbidden Pool, the third ring, the book reader, spoiler section. I just want to talk about Duran for a second because essentially what we know that they're doing is kind of collapsing a bunch of durins from the second age into one Duren here. So there's the Duren that strikes up the. rare friendship with the elves of Aregian. It seems like King Duren's going to die. And that Prince Dorn is going to become king and is going to make some decisions that maybe he shouldn't. Right. But one of them is this alliance of elves and dwarves.

Right. We get the doors of Duren that Kellebrimbor will build, like, as a mark of their friendships, speak friend and enter. Like, that's going to be part of it. Caliborne the Elven Smith gave Duren the first of the seven rings of the dwarves which does not go well in the end But what I do love about this during the third During the third is the one that helps Elrond escape and establish a refuge So I love this idea that like Elron I guess along with Caliborne

Beasier at this time Like that Dura is the one who helps them survive and escape you know later Duren the 6th is the Duren that delves too greedily and too deep and the monster the Balrog Duren's Bain Duren's Bain

And then his son was killed That his grandson's the one who gets them out of there But anyway, do you think that this is all going to be our one guy Duren here? I don't know, that was my question for you Because how much is the timeline going to compress Because on the one hand, it's like, I don't know that it makes sense to show us this ballrog and wait and then have it not turn Moria, turn Moria from a mine into a tomb for many Durans down the road.

They call it to mine. Yeah, this is a Chekhov's Durin's pain, right? Yeah. You can't show us this Balorahag and then not have it do it. But that should technically happen in the third age. Right. It doesn't happen in the second age. I guess there could be a parallel then to what Satic says about the volcanic eruptions

and this idea of cycles and things that erupt over time and then go dormant again. But I guess the question is like to what extent could something really consequential happen with that ballerog given their ferocity and their strength and the might of their power and then have everyone basically be like, it's cool to keep digging. That would be, I think that would that would be a stretch. Interesting. Okay. Well, that's their Duren question. Bring it on. Like, how many Duren's is this one Duren? I mean, Owen Arthur, who plays Duren is doing an incredible job. And he can be, you know, all brands. One brand is all brands. One Duran is all Duren. That's fine with me. It's just, I have questions. I don't think they can show us that Baurag and then never pull the trigger on the Bower. I don't think they could do that. So I have a lot of questions. Last, last, last, last thing. We talked about Galadryl, that idea.

Estelle, that idea of the higher faith, I think that's going to tie in really heavily to back to Numenor, right? Because that's the whole thing. The two sides of the fall of Numerar are the Kingsmen and the faithful. And the faithful having this idea of a greater power

and the Kingsmen challenging that idea of the greater power that you surrender yourself too. So I think that's a big part of the groundwork that they're laying for that. Anything else you want to say about this excellent episode of television? Just that I'm like despondent. We only have one left.

I'm so sad. Oh, God. Just like throw me in the bottom of a burning building and leave me for dead like a Seildor. I'm just devastated. Do you think we're going to get, I mean, a Sildor, I guess, here's, let me ask you a finale question here at the end of all things. I think there's a way, there's, there's,

possibly we don't see Duran and the Dwarves again this season. That did feel like a final note for their season one. Yeah. The ballerog. The ballerog. Duran and Disa. I think the dwarves might not be in the final finale. That would be sad, but that seems right based on where that in it.

I think it's possible we don't see a Rondeer, Bronwyn or Theo again. Like, they're off to a new settlement. Yeah. We don't need to check in with them. Meanwhile, in the woods, we could get Halbrand, Galadriel, the Harfuts, the cultists, the stranger. They're all headed in this. My geography, again, is not stellar, but I think they're all headed in a similar direction. Right.

They could have been a collision course. A minute since we've been with Calibor and Gilgallet in like a meaningful way, which feels Kellebrambor in particular, I think we need in the finale. At the very least, I think we're getting Elron and Galadryl in the same place. So are we getting our Saran reveal in the finale? I think we're going to have to know that he's Sauron by the finale. But the other characters don't. And maybe shouldn't.

Yeah. Yeah. Maybe Galadryl is like, maybe Galadryl gets a spidey sense of like, whoa, or something like that. Because again, according to the lore, like she and Gil Gallad were the first to be like, uh-uh. Not this guy. So she brings him the very wind, right? That's right. Blows him back into Lyndon.

Wait. When you say blows him. Okay. Okay. I know you're quoting one of the most beautiful lines of the show, but I'm sorry, I just couldn't help it. Maybe I don't see them on the road at all, and then you can just go to A.O.3 and enjoy all the fan fiction of what happens. with Galadriel and Halibrand on the road to Lyndon. But if we see Halperin interact with Calibrimbor at all and is like, guess what?

I'm a really good Smith. I mean, that's all I need. Yeah. For him to be like Galadryl knows, I'm great at smithing. You need some smith. I heard you need some smithing on Calibrimbor. Anyway, that's it. We did it.

I'm really excited for the finale. cannot wait. I think it's going to be incredible. Thanks as always to Carla Sheriboga for putting up with us and for backing my campaign to get Elrana Duran and Durrant to kiss. Thanks to our Jen and Ramcapul for his additional production work on this and everything else that he

does. Come back. Sunday for Talk the Thrones. Tuesday for the Deep Dive into House of the Dragon. Wednesday for the Midnight Boys Pee-Poo on Andoram. Thursday for Ben Lindberg on She-Hulk. I heard Daredevil's back. I'm excited.

I haven't seen it yet. And we'll be back ourselves for the finale at the end of the next week. And thank you so much for listening. And bye. We need to talk about one of my favorite shows with my favorite person. What's the difference between butter and butter made from real California dairy? It's the real California farm families. behind it. Real people. Real care. Real intention. Why? Because real matters. So whether you're

pouring milk, melting cheese, or just grabbing one more spoonful of yogurt. Keep it real. Look for the seal. Real California milk by Real California Farm Families. Enjoy more ways to save at Ralph's, like low prices in every aisle. And when you download the Ralph's app, you can clip and save more with digital coupons every week. Plus, you can earn fuel points to save up to $1 per gallon at the pump. At Ralph's, you can enjoy more ways to save and more rewards every time you shop. So it's always easy to save big every day with savings and rewards.

Ralph's SoCal for over 150 years. Savings may vary by state. Fuel restrictions apply. Seasite for details.